Time for Climatologists to Up Their Game

Environment • Views: 6,139

Andrew Revkin has a good summary of the fallout in the scientific community from the stolen CRU emails: Hacked E-Mail Data Prompts Calls for Changes in Climate Research.

Some prominent climate scientists are calling for changes in the way research on global warming is conducted after a British university said thousands of private e-mail messages and documents had been stolen from its climate center.

The scientists say that the e-mail messages, which have circulated on the Internet and which disclose the inner workings of a small network of climatologists who chart the planet’s temperature, have damaged the public’s trust in the evidence that humans are dangerously warming the planet, just as many countries are poised to start reining in greenhouse gas emissions.

“This whole concept of, ‘We’re the experts, trust us,’ has clearly gone by the wayside with these e-mails,” said Judith Curry, a climate scientist at Georgia Institute of Technology.

She and other scientists are seeking more transparency in the way climate data is handled and in the methods used to analyze it. And they argue that scientists should re-evaluate the selection procedures used by some scientific journals and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the panel that in 2007 concluded that humans were the dominant force driving warming and whose findings underpin international discussions over a new climate treaty.

I’ve commented several times in our discussions about this issue that I understand why the scientists at CRU were resistant to sharing data with people like Steven McIntyre, whose only reason for demanding access to the data is to cherry-pick through it for new out-of-context denialist talking points. And it’s understandable how the constant stream of distortions and lies from their critics could lead to a sort of “bunker mentality,” in which the CRU scientists began to believe it was better for them to withhold the data, to make it harder for the deniers to attack.

It’s understandable, but for political — not scientific — reasons it would be better to just go ahead, share everything openly and transparently, and deal with the inevitable deniers’ distortions — rather than create the impression that they’re trying to hide something.

It may be difficult and frustrating to have to take time away from actual research and productive work to deal with dishonest attacks, but in the current highly charged political atmosphere, it’s necessary — or the scientific community is handing the deniers a public relations weapon that they will have no hesitation using. It’s time for climatologists to up their game, and take on the deniers openly. The scientific community has facts and reality on its side, and that has to count for something.

RealClimate has a good start on this, with a new page dedicated to listing dozens of sources for climate data: RealClimate: Data Sources.

UPDATE at 11/28/09 2:53:07 pm:

Please note: none of what I wrote above changes my opinion that “CRU-gate” is an absolutely phony scandal, deliberately trumped up and distorted to sabotage the Copenhagen climate summit meeting.

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473 comments
1 philosophus invidius  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:34:57pm

The problem: scientific training does not include PR training. Unfortunately, climate scientists need to know about both so that their work is not distorted or undermined by their own PR ineptitude.

2 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:37:28pm

I think science will be best served by openness. So many people are distrustful of science as it is, to make the data more open will serve as an opportunity for scientists to get out in front and discuss their field(s) more. It is in this way that climate scientists can work to turn the tide, and help people understand just what is at stake. There is little to fear when the truth is on your side.

3 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:38:44pm
It may be difficult and frustrating to have to take time away from actual research and productive work to deal with dishonest attacks, but in the current highly charged political atmosphere, it’s necessary

The difficulty and frustration are apparent here, at a non-scientific blog. Watching Charles and the lizard army take on first the creationists, now the climate denialists, has been educational and almost painful. If it's this hard to read the discussions, I can only imagine how hard it would be to have to defend one's own work from the same lying arguers making the same debunked points over and over.

I admire your patience. I don't think I have it.

4 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:40:04pm

The Discovery Institute is running wild with this, claiming that all science is a fraud -- including "Darwinism." They're hoping to ride "ClimateGate" to promote the idea that all dissenters -- such as their creationist selves -- are victims of a corrupt scientific elite.

To fend off all the crazies from piling on, the global warming people have to open up and share their data. It's very foolish to resist this, when doing so feeds the fantasies of every kook movement in the world.

5 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:40:13pm

For those like myself, who are still trying to sift through enough info to make a decision on where we stand, some clarity and balance from the experts is needed. For instance, why can't nuclear power and expanded building of these power plants be "fast tracked?"

6 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:40:40pm

Sorry, but any time there is a hush hush, we know what we know but we can't show you how we know it distrust is an inevitable by-product. True, hard core deniers will NEVER be satiated even if they are in on the data collecting. The only way there can be an "OPEN" debate on this is if both sides show all their cards

7 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:41:50pm

Transparency is the best policy. It is a costly policy in important ways. I see it as utterly necessary, given the global task at hand.

8 AK-47%  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:43:06pm

This is no longer just theoretical science, like counting hairs on bugs' legs or sorting out genomes: it is the kind of science that has far-reaching economic and political ramifications.

So scientists will have to realize that they will be working with people looking over their shoulder and adjust their actions to adapt.

it may distract them from their science, but I believe it will aid us all in the long run.

9 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:46:37pm

re: #4 The Curmudgeon

The Discovery Institute is running wild with this, claiming that all science is a fraud -- including "Darwinism." They're hoping to ride "ClimateGate" to promote the idea that all dissenters -- such as their creationist selves -- are victims of a corrupt scientific elite.

To fend off all the crazies from piling on, the global warming people have to open up and share their data. It's very foolish to resist this, when doing so feeds the fantasies of every kook movement in the world.

It's anachronistic as well not to put publicly funded data out to the public. The future of the web is raw, generic data online and accessible to all like GapMinder.

10 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:46:51pm

re: #1 philosophus invidius

The problem: scientific training does not include PR training. Unfortunately, climate scientists need to know about both so that their work is not distorted or undermined by their own PR ineptitude.

Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. Every research college and/ or facility of any significance has pr people, as well as scientists, accountants, support staff, lawyers, etc etc
These aren't individuals working with a K-Mart science kits out of their basements in their spare time

11 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:47:18pm

re: #1 philosophus invidius

Rather than try to acquire PR skills, an unlikely skill-set in an academic, they need to hire talented PR folks and bring them up to speed on the science.

12 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:47:19pm

By the way, none of what I wrote changes my opinion that CRU-gate is an absolutely phony scandal, deliberately trumped up to sabotage the Copenhagen climate summit meeting.

13 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:47:34pm

re: #4 The Curmudgeon

To fend off all the crazies from piling on, the global warming people have to open up and share their data. It's very foolish to resist this, when doing so feeds the fantasies of every kook movement in the world.

Many of them are very open. Indeed, Dr. Hansen has been a big proponent of this and GISS is more transparent than some. It is wrong to say the "global warming" people are not "open". A great deal of data and models are available. Not all, which is why there still are calls to make more available.

As I mentioned downstairs, this whole "climategate" centers around a handful of nay-sayers (e.g., McIntyre) who have targeted very specific efforts (by Mann and Briffa).

The denial-o-sphere then uses these specific instances to try and paint a broad picture of cover-up.

As Briffa has often pointed out, he doesn't own some of the data he uses. Data is collected from many sources, an if, for example, some Russian researcher decides to let Briffa use a set of his data but then decides to not let others use it, that is not something Briffa can control.

The "cover up" meme is being played as part of a marketing effort that is being coordinated on multiple continents, as an effort to derail the Copenhagen negotiations.

14 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:47:57pm

re: #11 Rightwingconspirator

see #10

15 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:48:24pm

re: #8 ralphieboy

This is no longer just theoretical science, like counting hairs on bugs' legs or sorting out genomes: it is the kind of science that has far-reaching economic and political ramifications.

So scientists will have to realize that they will be working with people looking over their shoulder and adjust their actions to adapt.

it may distract them from their science, but I believe it will aid us all in the long run.

ralphieboy -

Adaptation is more or less - Evolution. Evolution will require transparency, like for real, go from there. Discussion?

-S-

16 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:49:09pm

It will come as rather big surprise when the opponents see that in the end the data will speak for itself and through other measures AGW science will come out even stronger. The same theories and data that are backed world wide at countless institutions and organizations including NASA, NSF, National Climate Data Center, and NOAA. Added to this growing list is the US Navy and Coast Guard with regards to "Arctic Roadmap" and "Task Force Climate Change" being led by Rear Admiral David W. Titley, Oceanographer and Navigator of the Navy.

Included is a recent letter to the US Senate (10/21/09) from the American Association for the Advancement of Science and signed by:

American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Chemical Society
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Biological Sciences
American Meteorological Society
American Society of Agronomy
American Society of Plant Biologists
American Statistical Association
Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
Botanical Society of America
Crop Science Society of America
Ecological Society of America
Natural Science Collections Alliance
Organization of Biological Field Stations
Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
Society of Systematic Biologists
Soil Science Society of America
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research

17 carnaby  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:50:15pm

While I understand that a lot of "denialists" are dishonest and that their attacks are usually without merit, Charles, you seem to word the above as if there is no such thing as an honest skeptic or "denialist." That is troublesome for me, because there are a few legitimate and honest scientists, at the very least, who question some of the so called consensus views. Richard Lindzen comes to mind.

18 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:50:15pm

if "developing countries" like China and India (home to more than 2 billion people) are not required to do what other countries are being asked to do, will these plans to "green up" the planet even have a chance to succeed?

19 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:50:17pm

re: #4 The Curmudgeon

BTW, speaking of creationists painting Darwinists as part of a cover-up... it should be pointed out that anthropology and archeology are noted for their secrecy, compared to say meteorology.

20 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:52:10pm

I thought science was supposed to be about the search for truth. Now we're told that climatologists need to "up their game".

What is the game, and what are the stakes, outside the truth?

Could it be about political and economic power?

Nah, we're only talking about how we run our entire economy. No stakes there, really.

21 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:52:19pm
22 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:53:05pm

Why would anthropology need secrecy?

23 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:54:00pm

re: #16 Gus 802

Gus802 -

I DO NOT Believe that the AGW Hypothesis will come out stronger. Assuming the e-mails are correct, there is TOO MUCH to 'splain, Ricky.

-S-

24 StillAMarine  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:54:36pm

One cause of the bunker mentality that Charles mentions is that early climate change warnings were done in a disingenuous manner; witness Al Gore's dishonest Inconvenient Truth which was fraught with errors, yet passed off as gospel truth by those on the left who had their own hidden agenda. The result was that the climate change warnings, which were entirely appropriate, were trashed by those on the right, who have their own hidden agenda.
Fact is, the climate is indeed changing, our continuing to add greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere is not helping and we need to prepare for the change that is coming upon us. Just how much of the climate change is due to the solar cycle, I will not even venture to guess, but it is a fact that the world's climate has changed over the past few millennia. The icy island of Greenland is not called "green" for nothing, and the Vikings were forced to abandon their settlements there as the climate cooled there. For the same reason, Newfoundland was not called "Vinland" for nothing.
Meanwhile, honest people with integrity, like Charles, are forced to sift through the steaming piles of results that are being excreted by the weasels on both the right and left to get at some semblance of reality. I will admit that, much as Al Gore pisses me off, the pile of excrement generated by the right seems to be much larger than that from the left at the present time.
Climate change is happening. We must prepare for it without bankrupting ourselves in the process if possible.

25 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:54:58pm

re: #22 Rightwingconspirator

Why would anthropology need secrecy?

Have you ever glanced at your ancestors!?!?!?
//

26 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:55:09pm

re: #21 yakabebe

Seems many very well qualified people have a far stronger view than seems to be the opinion of this site. Grudgingly, it appears even Charles is coming around to a point that suggest more transparency might be in order.

Nonsense. I'm not "coming around" to anything. I've been making these same points in every thread about this stupid "scandal."

Links to Pajamas Media are not welcome at LGF. They feature the writing of a white supremacist, and I won't allow links to them any more than I'd allow links to Stormfront.

27 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:56:31pm

re: #21 yakabebe

Tipler is a creationist who has spent his recent years trying to undermine the entirety of moden science by attacking the concept of peer review.

Tipler is not an honest skeptic. He is an ideologue on a crusade.

28 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:57:02pm

re: #25 sattv4u2

How did you know?
LOL

29 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:57:48pm

re: #27 freetoken

Tipler is a creationist who has spent his recent years trying to undermine the entirety of moden science by attacking the concept of peer review.

Tipler is not an honest skeptic. He is an ideologue on a crusade.

It's a sign of how far PJ Media has gone off the rails, that they have creationists and white supremacists writing for them now.

30 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:57:51pm

re: #5 _RememberTonyC

For those like myself, who are still trying to sift through enough info to make a decision on where we stand, some clarity and balance from the experts is needed. For instance, why can't nuclear power and expanded building of these power plants be "fast tracked?"

There is no engineering reason why not. We know how to build breeder nuclear plants, and there is enough uranium, presuming we convert the more abundant U238 isotope to plutonium and then "burn" it, to run many plants for a long time.

The politics of it is different. Too many voters are afraid of radiation. Ionizing radiation is in fact dangerous at certain doses, and the plants must be built so that far fewer people receive such a dose than are now killed mining the coal that would otherwise have to be used.

Nuclear power is, in the public mind, linked to nuclear weapons, and these are very dangerous indeed. So maybe it would be better if we found a way to fast track wind and solar. But these aren't quite ready for the Big Tent act, so nuclear will simply have to be part of the answer.

31 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:57:53pm

re: #23 Dr. Shalit

Gus802 -

I DO NOT Believe that the AGW Hypothesis will come out stronger. Assuming the e-mails are correct, there is TOO MUCH to 'splain, Ricky.

-S-

The whole of climate science and data is not located solely at CRU and University of East Anglia, UK.

32 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:58:25pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

How did you know?
LOL

Whenever I want to see the latest pictures of my relatives I look at the Post Office wall!
/

33 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:58:32pm

re: #12 Charles

By the way, none of what I wrote changes my opinion that CRU-gate is an absolutely phony scandal, deliberately trumped up to sabotage the Copenhagen climate summit meeting.

Charles, your position on CRU-gate from the start has been very principled, rational, and evidence based. It was far more valuable to read and follow this developing story here than reading the hysterics of 99.99% of the other blogs.

It is hypocrisy for the sceptics to criticise you for being sceptical of preliminary and unverified reports.

34 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:58:44pm

re: #17 carnaby

Lindzen is not a full denialist, but rather has a rather fringe theory that opposes some theories of AGW without outright saying it's not real. He makes some valid critiques, but also makes invalid ones. ( His original critiques of the computer models has probably helped improve them, but his appearance in "The Global Warming Swindle" makes me suspect him as a source.)

35 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:59:39pm

re: #30 lostlakehiker

thanks

36 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:00:09pm

re: #31 Gus 802

The whole of climate science and data is not located solely at CRU and University of East Anglia, UK.

Indeed, only a very small part of it has anything to do with CRU.

37 StillAMarine  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:00:37pm

re: #29 Charles

It's a sign of how far PJ Media has gone off the rails, that they have creationists and white supremacists writing for them now.

This is a sad and sorry truth.

38 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:02:59pm

re: #31 Gus 802

The whole of climate science and data is not located solely at CRU and University of East Anglia, UK.

That is correct and that point seems lost on the hysterical blogs that think this is a death blow for the AGW theory.

With a bit of housecleaning, the Climate Science field will come out stronger and more widely accepted by the public.

39 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:03:29pm

re: #36 freetoken

Indeed, only a very small part of it has anything to do with CRU.

I still can't see how that is so difficult to understand. If one has a bag of 100 marbles and without looking at the contents you pull out a green marble that does not mean all of the marbles are green.

40 armylaw  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:03:49pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

I think science will be best served by openness. So many people are distrustful of science as it is, to make the data more open will serve as an opportunity for scientists to get out in front and discuss their field(s) more. It is in this way that climate scientists can work to turn the tide, and help people understand just what is at stake. There is little to fear when the truth is on your side.

Actually, the best result of this would be if publicly-funded research resulting in journal articles was placed in the public domain. There are times where I as a government attorney have been unable to access scientific journals where it might have been useful (but not definitive) in my case. For the private sector, I can only imagine that it is worse.

/end rant

41 dogg  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:06:13pm

The issue of climate gate is not the emails or lack of transparency.
Just follow the money, the worry is that fair debate may reduce the transfer of billions of dollars.
Currently we are going the way of the wasteful ethanol investments.
There are positives and negatives to climate changes regardless of the causes.
A real open debate over how and where to spend our tax dollars in this area is long over due.

42 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:06:17pm

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

43 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:07:25pm

re: #38 Bagua

That is correct and that point seems lost on the hysterical blogs that think this is a death blow for the AGW theory.

With a bit of housecleaning, the Climate Science field will come out stronger and more widely accepted by the public.

I think it will too. If they up their game and state the theories more clearly to the general public. There will be a lot of internal adjustment within particular institutions. This of course is relating to the science. Resulting policy on the other hand will remain contentious and dynamic.

44 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:09:19pm

re: #40 armylaw

Yes, the Journal issue (not just in climatology but in all fields) is another but related topic.

Public funds may pay for the research and writing of a paper, only to have that paper end up in a journal that one then has to pay again, sometimes signficantly, sometimes not, to read.

The journal publishers say the costs of editing (including peer review) drives that.

Perhaps, but there is a concerted effort being made to change the system.

Unfortunately, having a truly open system like the [Link: arxiv.org...] ends up with an un-reviewed and un-verified process.

Some way else needs to be found.

45 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:09:31pm

I guess RealClimate was intended to be the PR wing of the AGW crowd, but they come across as snarly and condescending, unfortunately. The field really needs some answer people who can address the questions that arise, even the stupid ones. Judith Curry has been advocating addressing the critics head on for a while and has been roundly criticized for it by her fellow scientists.

46 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:11:31pm

re: #39 Gus 802

I still can't see how that is so difficult to understand. If one has a bag of 100 marbles and without looking at the contents you pull out a green marble that does not mean all of the marbles are green.

Depends. If the green one you pulled out is still wet with the green paint and all the others were made of an absorbant white material ,,
just sayin!

47 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:11:40pm

re: #40 armylaw

Actually, the best result of this would be if publicly-funded research resulting in journal articles was placed in the public domain. There are times where I as a government attorney have been unable to access scientific journals where it might have been useful (but not definitive) in my case. For the private sector, I can only imagine that it is worse.

/end rant

True. Journals ostensibly limit access to paid subscribers to keep their doors open, but this practice helps fuel suspicions about veracity of content.

48 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:12:54pm

re: #45 claire

I guess RealClimate was intended to be the PR wing of the AGW crowd, but they come across as snarly and condescending, unfortunately.

That's a bit harsh on people who spend their own time blogging in an attempt to provide the very transparency about which the gnarl-o-sphere is grousing.

49 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:14:01pm

re: #43 Gus 802

I think it will too. If they up their game and state the theories more clearly to the general public. There will be a lot of internal adjustment within particular institutions. This of course is relating to the science. Resulting policy on the other hand will remain contentious and dynamic.

Not so much "state the theories" rather be open and honest with the data and software used to prove the hypotheses. That and avoid using advertising techniques to popularize their proposals.

Resulting policy will thus be less contentious as larger majorities of the public will be in agreement.

The problem now is the divide between what the politicians/media/UN/NGO/Tranzies believe is important priority and what the citizens who pay their salaries believe.

This disconnect is at the heart of the discontent.

50 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:16:10pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

Depends. If the green one you pulled out is still wet with the green paint and all the others were made of an absorbant white material ,,
just sayin!

OK Then I would adjust the problem by saying there are 100 bags. In the end both cases would be small statistical probabilities or frequency. So I still believe one cannot determine a frequency based on the CRU regardless of the allegations.

51 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:17:40pm

re: #48 freetoken

That's a bit harsh on people who spend their own time blogging in an attempt to provide the very transparency about which the gnarl-o-sphere is grousing.

Doesn't Gavin Schmidt, a NASA employee, post on RC during working hours? And I don't see a great deal of transparency at RC either.

52 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:17:49pm

re: #3 wrenchwench

At least creationists have access to millions of fossils and mountains of biological data to try and poke holes in evolution. They can't complain no one's giving them access to it.

I think it's obvious the climate change community needs to have their data and methods out there and explained and they need not 4 but say 20 or more centers studying the data and refining the methods, tracking the warming and the GH junk humans are putting in the air to make the case that it's warming, human caused and the best solutions to prevent a runaway scenario. Don't ask me how you do that and fund it all but that would be better than this circle the wagons stuff.

BTW could you imagine if some creationist/ID "research" center claimed thay had found inconclusive proof of God in the biological data or fossil record. But that they aren't sharing their data and analytical methods because people would just poke holes in it? Would you find that even slightly plausible?

53 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:18:14pm

re: #38 Bagua

That is correct and that point seems lost on the hysterical blogs that think this is a death blow for the AGW theory.

With a bit of housecleaning, the Climate Science field will come out stronger and more widely accepted by the public.

I would like the truth to come out stronger and more generally understood. If that means a little less "Chicken Little Soup" from the AGW crowd and a little more insight into the dissent that exists even within established opinion - a little less "the science is settled" and "consensus" - that would be salutary, in my view.

54 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:18:47pm

re: #4 The Curmudgeon

Idiots.

55 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:19:47pm

The solution here may have to involve CRU getting legislative immunity from the consequences of breaking the contracts necessary to release the raw data.

56 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:19:49pm

re: #16 Gus 802

Gus802 -

I am a Big Boy. I have admitted mistakes. Most of my political life was a mistake, a lot of wasted time. If I have to do so one more time - I Shall.

-S-

57 captdiggs  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:20:39pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

I think science will be best served by openness. So many people are distrustful of science as it is, to make the data more open will serve as an opportunity for scientists to get out in front and discuss their field(s) more. It is in this way that climate scientists can work to turn the tide, and help people understand just what is at stake. There is little to fear when the truth is on your side.

Now that is all very true.

Which is why the public will be far better served as a result of this "nontroversy".

58 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:21:17pm

re: #56 Dr. Shalit

Gus802 -

I am a Big Boy. I have admitted mistakes. Most of my political life was a mistake, a lot of wasted time. If I have to do so one more time - I Shall.

-S-

I too have acquired a taste for crow. ;)

59 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:21:27pm

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I would like the truth to come out stronger and more generally understood. If that means a little less "Chicken Little Soup" from the AGW crowd and a little more insight into the dissent that exists even within established opinion - a little less "the science is settled" and "consensus" - that would be salutary, in my view.

All anyone wants is the truth, surely...

60 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:21:39pm

re: #52 dwells38

There are only 4 centers studying the data?

61 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:21:49pm

AGW debate in a nutshell:

We're all going to be underwater in 50 years and DIE DIE DIE unless we stop eating meat and start living like the Unabomber!

It's a hoax! A big commie plot! One world government tyranny!

If you take an airplane you inconsiderate anti-Earth Capitalist pig, you need to offset your carbon footprint by paying ME ME ME so I can save the planet and mankind from certain doom! Doom I say!

Fuck you! I'm buying Antarctica Island at The World Project in Dubai with other people's money and shipping in huge refrigerators so I can build Orca tanks and import hundreds of penguins you commie one world government Godless puke!

62 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:21:56pm

re: #55 goddamnedfrank

Some of it is international. That is why I mentioned Russia in my example. Some of the dendrochronology stuff is from Siberian tree samples, not collected by Briffa or the CRU.

Again... a great deal of data is available.

That is what is so silly about this nontroversy.

63 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:22:06pm

re: #59 woodentop

All anyone wants is the truth, surely...

You're joking, right?

64 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:22:43pm

re: #5 _RememberTonyC


I think there's always been a green lobby against nuclear because of the fear of a China syndrome meltdown. Could mess up the enviornment pretty bad. However now that the French have succcessfully used it for decades I agree with you it's time for a second look. Current technology might make the prospect of a 3 mile island or the unthinkable Chernobyl scenario practically impossible.

65 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:23:41pm

re: #63 Cato the Elder

You're joking, right?

Cato -

I am hearing you, and seeing Jack Nicholson. That is all. -S-

66 RRFan  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:24:34pm

John Lott of "More Guns Less Crime" did a study on the relationship of guns and crime. Lott had a data set of over 50,000 points and published the data set for all to analyze. This is an emotional topic too and as they say: The rest is history.

All of the data needs to be published, assumptions spelled out and code released. After the dust (and blood) settles, we may have some idea what is really happening.

If you keep playing the trust me card, people will not.

67 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:24:42pm

re: #61 borgcube

You're joking, right?

68 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:25:38pm

re: #64 dwells38

I think there's always been a green lobby against nuclear because of the fear of a China syndrome meltdown. Could mess up the enviornment pretty bad. However now that the French have succcessfully used it for decades I agree with you it's time for a second look. Current technology might make the prospect of a 3 mile island or the unthinkable Chernobyl scenario practically impossible.

Where have you been?
WE (the USA) has used it successfully for decades

[Link: www.insc.anl.gov...]

69 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:26:40pm

re: #67 Gus 802

Not entirely. I don't understand why people get so worked up over this subject. Never thought that climate projections could get politicized.

70 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:26:52pm

re: #59 woodentop

All anyone wants is the truth, surely...

Perhaps this link on the history of climate change will help, then:

The Discovery of Global Warming

I'm sure it will also get ignored by those who aren't so interested in the truth, but would rather cling to their ignorance, and pretend it's too much work to inform themselves, even when a good link is provided for them.

71 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:27:06pm

re: #61 borgcube

If you take an airplane you inconsiderate anti-Earth Capitalist pig, you need to offset your carbon footprint by paying ME ME ME so I can save the planet and mankind from certain doom! Doom I say!

[cont.]

"So I can take a politically justifiable airplane to København, the next all-talk-no-action scene of international global Gaian ecotistical enlightenment, and nail a hot blonde Danish chick who wears keffiyeh underwear, bathes only once a week and doesn't shave her legs."

I think I just joined the AGWH crowd, Borg.

72 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:27:21pm

re: #62 freetoken

Some of it is international. That is why I mentioned Russia in my example. Some of the dendrochronology stuff is from Siberian tree samples, not collected by Briffa or the CRU.

Again... a great deal of data is available.

That is what is so silly about this nontroversy.


- opinion-
There are too many uncharted variables in individual/regional tree growth for dendrochronology to be regarded as anything other than a minor indicator of climate change at this point in time.

73 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:27:26pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

Where have you been?
WE (the USA) has used it successfully for decades

[Link: www.insc.anl.gov...]

sattv4u2-

Yup - and not even including the Nuclear Navy.

-S-

74 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:29:14pm

re: #62 freetoken

Some of it is international. That is why I mentioned Russia in my example. Some of the dendrochronology stuff is from Siberian tree samples, not collected by Briffa or the CRU.

Again... a great deal of data is available.

That is what is so silly about this nontroversy.

Totally agree, NASA GISTEMP is completely auditable, open source and verifiable. As part of converting CRU to an open source shop to placate the deniers, it needs to be pointed out that concurrent, untainted datasets exist that support identical conclusions.

75 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #72 Capitalist Tool

- opinion-
There are too many uncharted variables in individual/regional tree growth for dendrochronology to be regarded as anything other than a minor indicator of climate change at this point in time.

That's not true at all. Dendrochronology is an established and proven technique that yields very accurate results, especially when correlated with other dating methods.

76 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:30:47pm

re: #71 Cato the Elder

[cont.]

"So I can take a politically justifiable airplane to København, the next all-talk-no-action scene of international global Gaian ecotistical enlightenment, and nail a hot blonde Danish chick who wears keffiyeh underwear, bathes only once a week and doesn't shave her legs."

I think I just joined the AGWH crowd, Borg.

That would be hot blonde Danish chick who bathes once per week with unshaven legs.

77 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:31:06pm

re: #69 borgcube

Not entirely. I don't understand why people get so worked up over this subject. Never thought that climate projections could get politicized.

Yes, I too wonder why people do get worked up. Just as when I heard the pathetic and dire predictions from the like of Nick Griffin in his rant against Copenhagen comparing it to Maoist and Stalinist policy replete with the usual fear of "secular New Word Order" predictions. Or Alex Jones and the associated Tea Party chanting not unlike the cries of "death panels" with him too crying that the AGW proponents are New World Order "shills." Yeah, people sure do get worked up.

78 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:31:41pm

re: #75 Charles

That's not true at all. Dendrochronology is an established and proven technique that yields very accurate results, especially when correlated with other dating methods.

Then why did they throw it out when the results began to contradict other measurements of temperature change in recent decades?

79 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:32:05pm

When the people who advocate that we alter so many aspects of our day-to-day life so we can save the planet and minimize out 'carbon footprint' start making the sacrifices and steps that we're supposed to undergo in their own lives, then I'll take 'Global Warming' seriously...

and I do not mean these fucking idiotic carbon offset schemes that make subprime lending look like a 3-story stack of gold bullion by comparison. That's just throwing money at the 'problem'...and knowing the left and 'progressives' like I do, they're very adept at throwing other people's money at the problem.

80 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:32:34pm

re: #78 Cato the Elder

Then why did they throw it out when the results began to contradict other measurements of temperature change in recent decades?

Why did who "throw it out?"

81 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:33:07pm

nice post Charles...it's what I've wanted to hear from somebody

82 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:33:42pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Or like this utter fucking nonsense: [Link: www.hopenhagen.org...]

Ya see what I mean?

83 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:33:49pm

re: #79 Fenway_Nation

When the people who advocate that we alter so many aspects of our day-to-day life so we can save the planet and minimize out 'carbon footprint' start making the sacrifices and steps that we're supposed to undergo in their own lives, then I'll take 'Global Warming' seriously...

and I do not mean these fucking idiotic carbon offset schemes that make subprime lending look like a 3-story stack of gold bullion by comparison. That's just throwing money at the 'problem'...and knowing the left and 'progressives' like I do, they're very adept at throwing other people's money at the problem.

The issue of Al Gore wasting energy has absolutely no bearing on whether global warming is real.

84 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:34:29pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Yes, I too wonder why people do get worked up.

Among other possibilities, one is that this is a truly multi-national problem which will take international cooperation to tackle.

That means people in the US will have to change their ways for the sake of people in other nations.

And vice versa.

A truly difficult proposition to sell.

85 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:35:10pm

re: #80 Charles

Why did who "throw it out?"

I thought - correct me if I'm wrong - that tree-ring data was discarded from some of the AGW calculations in recent memory because it failed to buttress the theory. In fact, I thought that was amply regurgitated in the recent hoo-hah.

86 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:35:37pm

re: #82 borgcube

Or like this utter fucking nonsense: [Link: www.hopenhagen.org...]

Ya see what I mean?

Uh huh.

87 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:35:47pm

re: #79 Fenway_Nation

One name for you.
Ed Begley. He walks the walk.

88 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:36:07pm

re: #83 Charles

The issue of Al Gore wasting energy has absolutely no bearing on whether global warming is real.

But it has a very large bearing on my opinion of those who want anybody but themselves to sacrifice on a large scale.

89 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:36:11pm

re: #74 goddamnedfrank

Totally agree, NASA GISTEMP is completely auditable, open source and verifiable. As part of converting CRU to an open source shop to placate the deniers, it needs to be pointed out that concurrent, untainted datasets exist that support identical conclusions.

gdf -

CRU is "non-profit' for what it is worth, it is not Microsoft, OR APPLE FOR THAT MATTER! What the Public pays for is by Definition - Open Source - unless a matter of National Security. Kinda like the Cuban "Bloqueo" - pay cash for stuff not limited by security and it gets delivered to your "mailbox."

-S-

90 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:37:03pm

re: #83 Charles

I beg your pardon, but if the most vocal proponent of AGW can't (or won't) take any steps to minimize his footprints, why exactly should I take anything he claims seriously?

Brazil's Lula is not idiot:

Brazil to USA on Climate Change legistlation- 'You first- we're too busy drilling for oil and natural gas'

91 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:37:28pm

re: #79 Fenway_Nation

When the people who advocate that we alter so many aspects of our day-to-day life so we can save the planet and minimize out 'carbon footprint' start making the sacrifices and steps that we're supposed to undergo in their own lives, then I'll take 'Global Warming' seriously...

and I do not mean these fucking idiotic carbon offset schemes that make subprime lending look like a 3-story stack of gold bullion by comparison. That's just throwing money at the 'problem'...and knowing the left and 'progressives' like I do, they're very adept at throwing other people's money at the problem.

Just an FYI I learned yesterday.

92 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:37:59pm

re: #75 Charles

That's not true at all. Dendrochronology is an established and proven technique that yields very accurate results, especially when correlated with other dating methods.

It's great for ageing wood, for instance establishing that a plank from the Mary Rose was hewn from a tree c.1500: the correlation with temperature is not proven. And even if it was, I'd need to see firm evidence that it was capable of expressing fractions of a degree centigrade per growth year.

93 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:38:18pm

re: #74 goddamnedfrank

Totally agree, NASA GISTEMP is completely auditable, open source and verifiable. As part of converting CRU to an open source shop to placate the deniers, it needs to be pointed out that concurrent, untainted datasets exist that support identical conclusions.

My point also.

Release the data and the code so that it can be independantly tested and verified or falsified.

NASA does it, if CRU wants to regain respect it should do the same.

This is not a trade secret like the Colonels chicken recipe, this is science crucial to the health of our global environment upon which economy and life changing restrictions are being proposed.

94 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:38:23pm

re: #83 Charles

The issue of Al Gore wasting energy has absolutely no bearing on whether global warming is real.

Al isn't wasting energy.

95 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:39:03pm

re: #85 Cato the Elder

Some tree ring data from every study gets thrown out because it fails to be a known quantity: you can't take fossilized logs from a river delta because they might have washed downstream from a much higher elevation as just one example of how tree ring data has to be normed when examining samples.

96 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:39:42pm

re: #75 Charles

Maybe so, but I remain unconvinced.
Dendros may be on to something and some of their (unnamed) findings are certainly verified by other means. The subject is quite fascinating for me, but time will have to tell.
Perhaps when someone correlates samples from the 1000- yr old cedars in Oklahoma along with the Joshuas, Redwoods and whatever else they can get hold of rather than limited studies of one or two species from a tight geographical area...
There may be a study like that out there, but I haven't heard of it.
Input appreciated-

97 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:40:37pm

re: #86 Gus 802

There you have it. Hopenhagen losers and creationist loons. A perfect match if I do say so.

98 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:40:53pm

re: #84 freetoken

Among other possibilities, one is that this is a truly multi-national problem which will take international cooperation to tackle.

That means people in the US will have to change their ways for the sake of people in other nations.

And vice versa.

A truly difficult proposition to sell.

Right. Tax schemes aside the USA adjusted to the Clean Air and Water Acts through several revisions. The Clean Air Act itself had a profound impact on coal powered electric generation. Worldwide similar legislation was enacted.

Domestically, there has also been CAFE requirements, safety standards, and most importantly, emissions standards. The result with auto manufacturing has already become a worldwide standard.

Also add in unleaded gasoline standards, Energy Star certification and so on. Building standards have gone from the Universal Building Code to the International Building Code which is the US standard to date.

99 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:41:02pm

re: #90 Fenway_Nation

I beg your pardon, but if the most vocal proponent of AGW can't (or won't) take any steps to minimize his footprints, why exactly should I take anything he claims seriously?

Gotcha. You don't like Al Gore, and so you're going to disregard all the scientific evidence for global warming. That makes sense. (Not.)

And by the way: Al Gore Gets Gold On Tennessee Digs.

A few treehuggers were chagrined that we would question Al Gore's worthiness as a Nobel prize winner, pointing out that the good that's he's done in raising the issue of global warming to the global public far outweighs any CO2 emissions from his personal travels, either by commercial or private jet. OK, point taken. In a CNN interview from Oslo, Gore noted: "The only way to solve this [climate] crisis is for individuals to make changes in their own lives."

So it seemed fitting to applaud Gore's completed renovations on his Tennessee mansion - we talked about his plans here. What's new is that Gore has gotten LEED gold certification from the Green Building Council - the 10,000-square-foot home is one of only 14 in the U.S. to achieve this rating, and the only home in Tennessee that's gotten any certification at all, according to the Associated Press. (There is also a platinum standard) Solar panels, solar roof fans, a rainwater collection system, and geothermal heating were all installed at the house. All incandescent lights - including those on the Christmas tree! - were replaced with either compact fluorescents or light-emitting diodes. And according to AP, energy use at the home decreased 11 percent during Tennessee's sultriest months, when the area was also hit by a heat wave. Good going, Mr. Gore.

100 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:41:04pm

re: #95 Thanos

Some tree ring data from every study gets thrown out because it fails to be a known quantity: you can't take fossilized logs from a river delta because they might have washed downstream from a much higher elevation as just one example of how tree ring data has to be normed when examining samples.

I wasn't talking about fossils. I was talking about tree-ring data from recent decades that was discarded because it failed to buttress other sources of global warming evidence.

101 BryanS  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:41:12pm

Agreed with the entire tenor of this article post. The CRU did the most damage to itself--politically--by being so unresponsive to freedom of info requests. Moreover, their inclination towards secrecy seemed to go against the main point of science--that is results must be examined by the community and be reproducible. Now, the collected data cannot easily be reproduced, but there has been little openness to how the CRU analyzed their data.

As a publicly funded operation that is heavily relied upon for its climate models, it is rather shacking that all their results are not routinely made public information. Other government funded research tends to lean towards openness--global warming research should do the same.

102 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:42:23pm

re: #98 Gus 802

I forgot to add the currently accepted LEEDs standards. Before this most building department required an energy audit of some type performed by an engineer -- signed and stamped.

103 allegro  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:42:52pm

re: #83 Charles

The issue of Al Gore wasting energy has absolutely no bearing on whether global warming is real.

Al Gore's Home

What's new is that Gore has gotten LEED gold certification from the Green Building Council - the 10,000-square-foot home is one of only 14 in the U.S. to achieve this rating, and the only home in Tennessee that's gotten any certification at all, according to the Associated Press. (There is also a platinum standard) Solar panels, solar roof fans, a rainwater collection system, and geothermal heating were all installed at the house. All incandescent lights - including those on the Christmas tree! - were replaced with either compact fluorescents or light-emitting diodes.

105 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:42:59pm

re: #83 Charles

The issue of Al Gore wasting energy has absolutely no bearing on whether global warming is real.

Charles -

Would you agree that the known facts on this issue reflect Badly on the man I voted for for US President in 2000 - former VP Gore, and the almost hidden facts reflect better on the man I voted for for US President in 2004, former President George W. Bush - stuff like driving a Pickup Truck fueled by Natural Gas and living in a "Human Sized" House" reflect to his Credit? Discussion?

-S-

106 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:44:11pm

re: #105 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Would you agree that the known facts on this issue reflect Badly on the man I voted for for US President in 2000 - former VP Gore, and the almost hidden facts reflect better on the man I voted for for US President in 2004, former President George W. Bush - stuff like driving a Pickup Truck fueled by Natural Gas and living in a "Human Sized" House" reflect to his Credit? Discussion?

-S-

It's irrelevant to the scientific issues. And please read what I just posted about Gore.

107 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:44:13pm

The dendrochronology is the shaky leg of AGW.

Lets assume one can derive historic temperatures accurate to a tenth of a degree, or even one degree. It still only tells us the temperature at that regional location, not the Global Temperature.

This is basic stuff and why we need to ignore such things as regional weather when looking at climate anomalies. Yet it is OK when it fits the AGW agenda?

108 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:44:37pm

re: #103 allegro

A 10,000 sq. ft. home is not sustainable on the face of it, just from its size.

That's 5 times as big as a regular house, at least.

— Ojoe, Architect.

109 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:45:28pm

re: #99 Charles

No...the solutions floated to stop 'global warming' so far involve across-the-board punitive and confiscatory taxes and rate increases on already-available sources of energy and unaccountable governmental bureaucratic bodies dictating what sort of vehicles we must drive, what kind of light bulbs we're supposed to use (the environemtnaly friendly kinds w/mercury) and given enough time, what sort of food we're supposed to ear. All in the name of 'saving the planet'...

Keep in mind this is the same government who ignored all the red flags on Major Hasan...but now they're going to magically save the earth?

110 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:46:08pm

re: #99 Charles

Holy shit- Gore got LEED Gold Cert and his energy usage only went down 11%? He probably spent $100000 on the reno! I would have thought it would be more like 40% at least.

111 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:46:41pm

re: #107 Bagua

The dendrochronology is the shaky leg of AGW.

Lets assume one can derive historic temperatures accurate to a tenth of a degree, or even one degree. It still only tells us the temperature at that regional location, not the Global Temperature.

This is basic stuff and why we need to ignore such things as regional weather when looking at climate anomalies. Yet it is OK when it fits the AGW agenda?

The computer models aren't too great either.

112 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:04pm

re: #111 woodentop

The computer models aren't too great either.

Nonsense.

113 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:05pm

re: #108 Ojoe

Well, I guess it would depend upon how many people are living there, correct?

114 countryjoe63  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:18pm

The theory was that 1) the earth's temperature is warming and 2) this is caused by man. Notice how climate change has now replace global warming, so as to explain the fact the planet is no longer warming. Climate change is a concept that had to be given the connotation that the overall weather patterns of the earth are changing, such as a cat 5 hurricane called Katrina. Well, after 4 hurricane seasons of relative quiet, the argument has to be changed again so as to say the temperature is changing. That should be enough for any educated person to see that this is all made-up "crisis" and the e-mails only are the now-existent proof that the whole argument is a hoax. From the start, AGW was nothing more than to separate Americans from their tax dollars. To even think that man could effect the weather is preposterous, and very naive. We just don't have that much power.

For those that believe the earth is warming because I drive an SUV, more and more people are figuring out this scheme.

115 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:43pm

Here they come again.

116 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:52pm

re: #89 Dr. Shalit

gdf -

CRU is "non-profit' for what it is worth, it is not Microsoft, OR APPLE FOR THAT MATTER! What the Public pays for is by Definition - Open Source - unless a matter of National Security. Kinda like the Cuban "Bloqueo" - pay cash for stuff not limited by security and it gets delivered to your "mailbox."

-S-

Oh come on, you know damned well that the CRU is legally constrained by agreements they signed in the past not to redistribute much of the raw data that was shared with them. You cannot obviate the need for a public (legislative) solution to a public problem by dimly insisting that CRU's status prevents them from being what they obviously are, bound by their word. Especially since the vast majority of CRU's work long predates both the political importance of the topic and british freedom of information laws.

117 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:55pm

re: #106 Charles

It's irrelevant to the scientific issues. And please read what I just posted about Gore.

Charles -

I posted "early" on this one, and stand corrected on the Gore home. Wish the former VP would advertise this himself. -S-

118 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:48:23pm

re: #109 Fenway_Nation

No...the solutions floated to stop 'global warming' so far involve across-the-board punitive and confiscatory taxes and rate increases on already-available sources of energy and unaccountable governmental bureaucratic bodies dictating what sort of vehicles we must drive, what kind of light bulbs we're supposed to use (the environemtnaly friendly kinds w/mercury) and given enough time, what sort of food we're supposed to ear. All in the name of 'saving the planet'...

Keep in mind this is the same government who ignored all the red flags on Major Hasan...but now they're going to magically save the earth?

Yep and manage the weather 50 years hence, apparently.

119 Lateralis  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:48:42pm

re: #83 Charles

No, but it is his political party that will walk us over the cliff and put the U.S. at a huge economic disadvantage. The only viable energy alternatives at this point are natural gas and nuclear. The left has no interest in pursuing either. Wind and solar are not viable alternatives nor do they figure to be in the near future.

I am afraid we are going to sign on to climate change treaty that will weaken us economically while our two primary competitors, India and China, will not. I really don't think we are in a position to damage our economy any more than it already is.

120 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:49:42pm

re: #114 countryjoe63

So you believe the climate would be doing exactly as it is if we were not burning oil, coal, and forests?

121 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:50:17pm

re: #113 freetoken

Yes, it would.

My folks had 8 kids. Baby boom; in a way they had my dad's kids, and my uncle's too, because my dad's brother died in WW2 and never had kids. We lived in a 2,000 sq. ft house & then added on, to about 3,000 sq. ft. So that's 300 sq. ft per person. We did fine. If Gore has 10,000 sq. ft. I suppose 33 people live in his house.

122 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:50:20pm

re: #108 Ojoe

A 10,000 sq. ft. home is not sustainable on the face of it, just from its size.

That's 5 times as big as a regular house, at least.

— Ojoe, Architect.

And the fact that a rich guy like Gore can afford to spend millions to get a nice rating from some green propaganda group does not mean he lives in an ecologically sound manner, nor does it have any bearing on the options available to the rest of us. Apply his current "green" energy usage to everyone in America on a per-capita basis and we'd probably triple our oil consumption.

I am not impress.

123 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:51:09pm

re: #116 goddamnedfrank

Oh come on, you know damned well that the CRU is legally constrained by agreements they signed in the past not to redistribute much of the raw data that was shared with them. You cannot obviate the need for a public (legislative) solution to a public problem by dimly insisting that CRU's status prevents them from being what they obviously are, bound by their word. Especially since the vast majority of CRU's work long predates both the political importance of the topic and british freedom of information laws.

gdf -

Both the US and UK have F.O.I. Laws. Sometimes, like Gov. Palin on Reform, one gets "Hoist by his/her own Petard." -S-

124 allegro  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:51:20pm

This is all so bizarre. I mean, what is the downside to living more energy conservatively? Really. We use less oil, are less beholden to the Mid East, save money as individuals, AND contribute less harmful shit into the atmosphere, earth, and water.

I don't get the nonsense.

125 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:51:33pm

re: #111 woodentop

The computer models aren't too great either.

That is an irrational statement to attach to my opinion. Typical of the hysteria and excess around CRUgate at this time. I said nothing about any computer models.

126 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:51:40pm

re: #99 Charles


And how does Al Gore get around these days? I'll give him a pass if he's still getting driven around in an armoured Suburban or Crown Victoria, since I think he still draws a Secret Service detail being the former Veep.

But the leerjet? While telling anyone who listens (usually a paying audience) about the gargantuan carbon footprint air travel is repsonsible for?

Even the Washington Nationals are more 'green' in that regard- taking Amtrak whenever they play some teams in the same division.

127 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:52:15pm

re: #121 Ojoe

Yes, it would.

My folks had 8 kids. Baby boom; in a way they had my dad's kids, and my uncle's too, because my dad's brother died in WW2 and never had kids. We lived in a 2,000 sq. ft house & then added on, to about 3,000 sq. ft. So that's 300 sq. ft per person. We did fine. If Gore has 10,000 sq. ft. I suppose 33 people live in his house.

10000 SF isn't the biggest around. You can fit 7500 SF onto a typical city yard - 3 levels which include the basement at 2500 SF each.

128 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:52:33pm

re: #100 Cato the Elder

The same applies to trees that might not be exactly native just because you find a tree in a river delta doesn't mean that it grew there. Some of the past studies had anomalies in them because they used "fallen down" trees that really washed down from upstream. One of the Russian studies, I forget which, had that problem.

129 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:52:42pm

re: #126 Fenway_Nation

And how does Al Gore get around these days?

Who cares? It has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

130 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:52:47pm

re: #119 Lateralis

Solar is viable to save 1/3 to 2/3 of the energy used to heat and cool most new houses built in the USA by means of "passive solar" building techniques, which do not require any fancy technology nor much if any added costs.

131 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:53:09pm

re: #125 Bagua
re: #111 woodentop

I would love to see another "model run". Factor us out, and show us all the differences. That would really help people understand-By comparison. Seems a mild to moderate challenge given all the data and computing power being used.

132 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:53:28pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder

I dislike "houses on steroids."

133 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:53:43pm

re: #124 allegro

This is all so bizarre. I mean, what is the downside to living more energy conservatively? Really. We use less oil, are less beholden to the Mid East, save money as individuals, AND contribute less harmful shit into the atmosphere, earth, and water.

I don't get the nonsense.

There are cost benefits. While people will claim that we will lose money we will actually gain money at the same time. Might come out even in the end.

134 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:53:46pm

re: #124 allegro

This is all so bizarre. I mean, what is the downside to living more energy conservatively? Really. We use less oil, are less beholden to the Mid East, save money as individuals, AND contribute less harmful shit into the atmosphere, earth, and water.

I don't get the nonsense.

allegro -

By George - whether Windsor, Bush or Foreman - You've GOT IT! -S-

135 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:54:08pm

Cato, can you provide a link to what you are talking about so I can be sure I"m addressing what you are referring to?

136 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:54:32pm

re: #127 Gus 802

The current state of the economy has greatly slowed the building of these monsters.

137 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:54:40pm

It occurs to me that for every AGW denier on these threads, there is at least one watermelon.

Green on the outside, red on the inside.

138 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:54:54pm

re: #135 Thanos

Cato, can you provide a link to what you are talking about so I can be sure I"m addressing what you are referring to?

I'll try.

139 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:54:55pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Solar is viable to save 1/3 to 2/3 of the energy used to heat and cool most new houses built in the USA by means of "passive solar" building techniques, which do not require any fancy technology nor much if any added costs.

New Mexico is full of them...it's an ageless tradition out here and has moved into the high end...you'd be impressed

140 countryjoe63  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:55:22pm

re: #120 Rightwingconspirator

Yep.

141 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:55:28pm

re: #100 Cato the Elder

I wasn't talking about fossils. I was talking about tree-ring data from recent decades that was discarded because it failed to buttress other sources of global warming evidence.

I think the data you're talking about is the Yamal tree rings? Those tree rings were from fossilized trees.

142 BryanS  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:55:55pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Solar is viable to save 1/3 to 2/3 of the energy used to heat and cool most new houses built in the USA by means of "passive solar" building techniques, which do not require any fancy technology nor much if any added costs.

Solar and wind are both good for saving fuel costs and reducing fuel consumed by non-renewable sources, but not for providing base load. Nuclear is really the only CO2 free fuel that can provide base load. If only we could get over our collective NIMBYism to get nuclear plants going again, we'd actually make some progress.

143 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:55:57pm

re: #137 Cato the Elder

It occurs to me that for every AGW denier on these threads, there is at least one watermelon.

Green on the outside, red on the inside.

JBS

144 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:56:29pm

re: #129 Charles

Who cares? It has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

By most definitions- including his own- it's not very 'green'...and you're saying that's irrelevant?

145 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:56:29pm

re: #128 Thanos

The same applies to trees that might not be exactly native just because you find a tree in a river delta doesn't mean that it grew there. Some of the past studies had anomalies in them because they used "fallen down" trees that really washed down from upstream. One of the Russian studies, I forget which, had that problem.

Yamal.

146 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:56:57pm

re: #140 countryjoe63

So, if the model run I proposed in my #131 showed we are making a major difference, would you find that persuasive?

147 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:57:37pm

re: #109 Fenway_Nation

That's what I really don't get about all of this. There seems to be an awfully huge amount of faith being placed in governments to figure this out, and it's not like there's a good track record there whatsoever. Far from it.

To me, the Hopenhagen folks are the same as the Discovery Institute types. Nothing but cutesy little meaningless slogans and equally idiotic gobbledygook respectively. They believe what they do before they get into why they do.

148 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:57:40pm

re: #123 Dr. Shalit

gdf -

Both the US and UK have F.O.I. Laws. Sometimes, like Gov. Palin on Reform, one gets "Hoist by his/her own Petard." -S-

The UK law dates to 2000, my point was that you are trying to apply it retroactively to obviate certain select prior contractual obligations that are themselves not specifically addressed by that law.

149 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:58:10pm

re: #144 Fenway_Nation

By most definitions- including his own- it's not very 'green'...and you're saying that's irrelevant?

Yes, it's utterly irrelevant to the scientific issues.

150 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:58:25pm

re: #143 Gus 802

JBS

That is NOT from the JBS. I don't know about Cato but, I first heard it here about two years ago.

151 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:58:42pm

re: #142 BryanS

I am talking about the conditioning of a building's interior climate, not electric grid base load power, though a passively conditioned building will save electric power, especially in summer.

There are many facets to this energy question.

152 sagehen  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:59:32pm

re: #64 dwells38

I think there's always been a green lobby against nuclear because of the fear of a China syndrome meltdown. Could mess up the enviornment pretty bad. However now that the French have succcessfully used it for decades I agree with you it's time for a second look. Current technology might make the prospect of a 3 mile island or the unthinkable Chernobyl scenario practically impossible.


Nobody doubts that the technology exists that it could be done safely (or that our already existing nuclear plants have a good track record). What anti-nuke people worry about is with a massive expansion, deregulators may prevent strong safety measures from being enforced.

Another political difficulty with pushing for more nuclear energy... how do we do it without undermining our case for trying to prevent Iran from doing the same?

153 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:59:35pm

re: #149 Charles

It is totally irrelevant to the scientific issues, yes.

154 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:00:18pm

Here's a quote from one Peter Watts, about whose stance on AGW I know absolutely nothing, that I think is worth reading.

On scientific "objectivity":

Science doesn't work despite scientists being asses. Science works, to at least some extent, because scientists are asses. Bickering and backstabbing are essential elements of the process. Haven't any of these guys ever heard of "peer review"?

There's this myth in wide circulation: rational, emotionless Vulcans in white coats, plumbing the secrets of the universe, their Scientific Methods unsullied by bias or emotionalism. Most people know it's a myth, of course; they subscribe to a more nuanced view in which scientists are as petty and vain and human as anyone (and as egotistical as any therapist or financier), people who use scientific methodology to tamp down their human imperfections and manage some approximation of objectivity.

But that's a myth too. The fact is, we are all humans; and humans come with dogma as standard equipment. We can no more shake off our biases than Liz Cheney could pay a compliment to Barack Obama. The best we can do-- the best science can do-- is make sure that at least, we get to choose among competing biases.

That's how science works. It's not a hippie love-in; it's rugby. Every time you put out a paper, the guy you pissed off at last year's Houston conference is gonna be laying in wait. Every time you think you've made a breakthrough, that asshole supervisor who told you you needed more data will be standing [by] ready to shoot it down. You want to know how the Human Genome Project finished so far ahead of schedule? Because it was the Human Genome projects, two competing teams locked in bitter rivalry, one led by J. Craig Venter, one by Francis Collins -- and from what I hear, those guys did not like each other at all.

155 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:00:21pm

re: #150 MandyManners

That is NOT from the JBS. I don't know about Cato but, I first heard it here about two years ago.

Actually, that DID originate with the John Birch Society.

156 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:00:23pm

re: #150 MandyManners

That is NOT from the JBS. I don't know about Cato but, I first heard it here about two years ago.

I know. It's not specifically from the JBS. It means Green on the outside Marxist on the inside.

157 allegro  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:00:53pm

re: #152 sagehen

Another issue is that the more nuclear power plants, the more nuclear waste. I know improvements have been made, but isn't that still a bit of a prickly issue?

158 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:00pm

re: #137 Cato the Elder

It occurs to me that for every AGW denier on these threads, there is at least one watermelon.

Green on the outside, red on the inside.

As a forensic photographer, I can assure you that we are all red on the inside.

159 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:05pm

re: #156 Gus 802

I know. It's not specifically from the JBS. It means Green on the outside Marxist on the inside.

Of which there are ample examples.

160 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:10pm

re: #155 Charles

Actually, that DID originate with the John Birch Society.

Well, I'll not give them credit. I heard it here first.

161 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:18pm

re: #155 Charles

Actually, that DID originate with the John Birch Society.

Did it?

162 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:34pm

re: #125 Bagua

That is an irrational statement to attach to my opinion. Typical of the hysteria and excess around CRUgate at this time. I said nothing about any computer models.

I apologise for any offence. I didn't mean to associate my observation with your opinion. But it seemed an apposite addition.

163 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:35pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

I think the data you're talking about is the Yamal tree rings? Those tree rings were from fossilized trees.

Thanks, that I think is what the reference was about. It's also questionable provenance to use trees from River deltas for the reasons I mentioned above.

164 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:36pm

re: #156 Gus 802

I know. It's not specifically from the JBS. It means Green on the outside Marxist on the inside.

Oh, I know what it means.

165 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:01:46pm

re: #133 Gus 802

I guess I pretty much believe what this blogger wrote:

Obama Going to Copenhagen

[...]

First, there's the political clout of the energy industry, which in any major producer or consumer of energy (basically any country richer than Malawi) is huge. Second, there are geostrategic concerns. It's very difficult to bring countries together in an environmental kumbaya moment when they're simultaneously jockeying for position in a world where oil's expensive and ice caps are small. This is exacerbated by the fact that a huge amount of current emissions are produced by the developing world, which is understandably eager to raise its living standards as quickly as possible. After all, the OECD got its chance to ravage the global climate for the past hundred and fifty years, why should it now prevent the rest of the world from catching up? This is, unfortunately, a decent point, but the Cubs will win the World Series before West voluntarily makes massive economic sacrifices to subsidize the development of its economic, political and military rivals. Thus, more opportunity for delay, obfuscation and stonewalling.

[...]

166 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:02:39pm

The John Birch Society, whatever else it was/is, was right about communism.

Their methods may have been all wrong, but their assessment was correct.

167 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:02:40pm

re: #159 Cato the Elder

Of which there are ample examples.

Ah, OK. Since your original comment was:

It occurs to me that for every AGW denier on these threads, there is at least one watermelon.

Green on the outside, red on the inside.

Are we going on a Red Hunt?

168 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:03:16pm

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

The UK law dates to 2000, my point was that you are trying to apply it retroactively to obviate certain select prior contractual obligations that are themselves not specifically addressed by that law.

It's ok, really, at this point let them hide the data and have their lawyers argue their cases as they may end up facing criminal charges, just throw out all their work from the scientific record first and rewrite every paper that cites them.

Short of full disclosure this is the sensible next step.

169 countryjoe63  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:03:33pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

No. I'm a biostatistician by trade. I could come up with a model relating the stock market with shoe size.
Models can be built to include variables which support the agenda and I am very suspect of them. Just look how these models predicted the abundance of hurricanes the last few years. Oh yeah, I forgot, there weren't that many. How are those models working now?

170 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:03:51pm

re: #166 Cato the Elder

The John Birch Society, whatever else it was/is, was right about communism.

Their methods may have been all wrong, but their assessment was correct.

Just because McCarthy was a raving idiot ddi not mean that there were not Communists at State and in non-governmental segments of society.

171 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:04:03pm

re: #166 Cato the Elder

The John Birch Society, whatever else it was/is, was right about communism.

Their methods may have been all wrong, but their assessment was correct.

You can't be serious. Do you realize how crazy the John Birch Society's commie obsession really is?

172 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:04:06pm

re: #160 MandyManners

Well, I'll not give them credit. I heard it here first.

I heard somewhere that it originated in Germany shortly after reunification- the communnist party pols adapted to an integrated Germany by modifying their Party rhetoric to say their policies were for the benefit of the earth instead of the worker.

I think my source for that is/was a Lonely Planet guidebook.

173 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:04:48pm

Gah. My soup's done. Finally, I'm done with the bird.

174 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:16pm

re: #167 Gus 802

Are we going on a Red Hunt?

I am not. It was just an aside.

175 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:19pm

For Pete's sake.

The Birchers claimed that Eisenhower was a commie plant. Get a grip. There's nothing correct about their freakish conspiracy theories.

176 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #24 StillAMarine

One cause of the bunker mentality that Charles mentions is that early climate change warnings were done in a disingenuous manner; witness Al Gore's dishonest Inconvenient Truth which was fraught with errors, yet passed off as gospel truth by those on the left who had their own hidden agenda. The result was that the climate change warnings, which were entirely appropriate, were trashed by those on the right, who have their own hidden agenda.

You nailed it.

The fact is there are those among AGW proponents who don't care if it's true or not because they are either anti-capitalist leftists or radical enviro-nuts and even anarchists who would be happy to see the demise of American materialism & energy consumption-driven society.

And among the AGW denires there is a subset who have a vested interest in squirming out of any responsible action if it is true. Such as industry lobbyists that might be financially decimated and the usual right-wing anti-science nut-jobs who just hate anything the left likes.

The rest of us are honest folks who just don't know enough to make a quality decision. I liked what you said about Al Gore who is a hypocrite at best (Good for thee but not for me) and at worst flat out doesn't believe his own flawed presentations which seem hyperbolic and propaganda-ish. Because I never liked Gore and tend toward fiscal conservative and suspicious of socialists though liberal on social issues I think me and global warming got off on the wrong foot.

I'm willing to entertain Charles and the smart LGFers who are convinced and I've backed my position off to be pro-warming and open to human caused.

177 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:28pm

re: #169 countryjoe63

That fact a model can be subverted does not invalidate honest efforts. I propose honest runs, in various scenarios to help us understand the reality. I also suggest this would not be terribly difficult. Good oversight would be required as it is now.

178 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:42pm

re: #165 freetoken

The CRIB countries (China, Russia, India, Brazil) are basically saying 'you first' to the USA when it comes to any substantive climate-change legislation.

179 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:06:44pm

re: #171 Charles

You can't be serious. Do you realize how crazy the John Birch Society's commie obsession really is?

Yes. Does that mean they were wrong about Stalin and Mao?

180 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:07:09pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

I am not. It was just an aside.

OK

Guess I won't have to bring up Robert Oppenheimer.

181 TheMatrix31  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:07:28pm

re: #178 Fenway_Nation

Surely there are no ulterior motives at play.

/

182 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:08:09pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Yes. Does that mean they were wrong about Stalin and Mao?

Did anyone ever deny that Stalin and Mao were communists?

183 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:08:21pm

re: #178 Fenway_Nation

Of course this will be exploited geopolitically by our strategic opponents. Which also changes nothing as far as assessing AGW goes.

184 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:09:05pm

re: #181 TheMatrix31

Surely there are no ulterior motives at play.

/

No ulterior motives at all, Matrix. They aren't stupid enough to cripple themselves economically.

Simple as that.

185 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:09:07pm

The environmental lobby as exemplified by Greenpeace originally opposed nuclear energy due to the proliferation threat since their purpose was twofold: The Environment and Anti-War.

They are having a hard time letting go of some of their knee-jerk anti-nuclear energy stance even though they must if we are to realize a reasonably clean future world when 9 Billion people will be living on it in less than forty years.

186 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:09:54pm
187 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:10:33pm

re: #152 sagehen

Nobody doubts that the technology exists that it could be done safely (or that our already existing nuclear plants have a good track record). What anti-nuke people worry about is with a massive expansion, deregulators may prevent strong safety measures from being enforced.

Another political difficulty with pushing for more nuclear energy... how do we do it without undermining our case for trying to prevent Iran from doing the same?

sagehen -

"Iran" has less to do with the US building Nuclear "Fired" Steam Turbine Electric Generation Plants - WHICH IS WHAT THEY REALLY ARE! - Than Al Gore's lifestyle has with AGW. That without resistance the current "Iranian" regime will pursue both civillian and military nuclear programs is a foregone. The program was actually started while the Shah was still in power. As for -Iran in Quotes - Remember what it actually means - Land of the Aryans with all that means. The real name is PERSIA!

-S-

188 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:10:34pm

re: #165 freetoken

May the Cubs never win if that's the deal.

189 TheMatrix31  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:10:43pm

re: #184 Fenway_Nation

**sigh**

yeah...

190 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:11:12pm

Think about this next time your lobbying for nuclear power. The JBS still sees Mr. Oppenheimer as "a problem."

Some lunatic rantings from the JBS:

Los Alamos has a history of security breaches. The most notorious case in recent years is that of scientist Wen Ho Lee, who was suspected of passing data on U.S. nuclear weapons to China. But questions about the security of nuclear secrets at Los Alamos go back much farther. The biggest questions surround the lab's first director, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the "father of the bomb." According to Gregg Herken, author of the book Brotherhood of the Bomb, "Robert Oppenheimer was a member of a closed unit of the Communist Party's professional section in the Bay Area, from 1938 to 1942…."

In a memoir written by Barbara Chevalier, wife of Communist Party member Haakon Chevalier and a close associate of Oppenheimer's, she claimed that her husband had approached Oppenheimer about spying for the Soviet Union. In that memoir, Herken noted in an article in The New York Review of Books, "she confirmed that Haakon had approached Oppenheimer to spy for the Soviet Union during the war, that both had been members of the Party's professional section—which often met at the Chevaliers' residence—and that 'Oppie's membership in a closed unit was very secret indeed.'"

Oppenheimer considered himself "a fellow traveler." Had he been around today these crazies of today would have chastised him.

191 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:12:20pm

re: #124 allegro

This is all so bizarre. I mean, what is the downside to living more energy conservatively? Really. We use less oil, are less beholden to the Mid East, save money as individuals, AND contribute less harmful shit into the atmosphere, earth, and water.

I don't get the nonsense.

There is no downside if it isn't imposed upon you by rule of law that ends up costing you 15-20% of your income every year and reduces your standard of living- If it's market and technology driven and voluntary, there's no problem at all.

We can all be smarter about energy, invest in upgrading cars and houses and lowering usage as we can afford to, reduce our usage a big 11% (just like Al Gore) and guess what? It won't do diddly-squat to alleviate AGW. It certainly will not reverse it. To do that your life WILL change. It will be a big deal. And I don't think you're going to like it.

192 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:12:38pm

re: #190 Gus 802

Think about this next time your lobbying for nuclear power. The JBS still sees Mr. Oppenheimer as "a problem."

Some lunatic rantings from the JBS:

Oppenheimer considered himself "a fellow traveler." Had he been around today these crazies of today would have chastised him.

Glenn Beck would have run him out of his job.

193 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:13:34pm

re: #182 Charles

Did anyone ever deny that Stalin and Mao were communists?

With respect, I think you're missing the point.

Just because the JBS was/is whackaloon batshit crazee about comnists in all their insidious forms does not mean, back in the day, that their assessment of Stalinist/Maoist evil was wrong. Stalin and Mao were thoroughly evil men responsible for scores of millions of deaths.

Just because the term "watermelons" may have been coined by the JBS - I have no evidence either way, except for bald assertions here - does not mean "watermelons" do not exist and are not pernicious.

Someone who would use ecological concerns for social(ist) control purposes is someone to be distrusted and watched. And the convergence between far-left politics and the ecology movement is well documented.

194 allegro  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:13:44pm

re: #191 claire

And where is all that hysteria coming from? Is it real? Seriously.

195 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:14:16pm

re: #192 Charles

Glenn Beck would have run him out of his job.

He sure would have.

Einstein was a socialist and a friend of Paul Robeson. He would have been another one.

196 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:15:27pm

re: #176 dwells38

dwells38 -

In 2000 the former VP appeared to be more fiscally conservative than GWB. One of three reasons I voted for him. -S-

197 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:16:13pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

And the convergence between far-left politics and the ecology movement is well documented.

That's not even debatable.

198 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:16:30pm

re: #193 Cato the Elder

It wasn't their assessment. Like all supremacist/Identist groups they just adopted the populist fear of the time. The average American knew that Communism was bad without their rantings, and it could be well argued that they helped extend MAD, the Cold War, etc, with their hysteria by discrediting in some minds anyone sane who tried to oppose Communism.

199 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:16:45pm

re: #195 Gus 802

He sure would have.

Einstein was a socialist and a friend of Paul Robeson. He would have been another one.

Please don't think for a minute that I would ever defend the JBS's policies or the tactics of McCarthy. I was making a point using a term that I find applicable and had no knowledge of its origins.

The origins of a word or concept, however, do not invalidate the concept as such.

200 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:18:19pm

re: #185 Thanos

The environmental lobby as exemplified by Greenpeace originally opposed nuclear energy due to the proliferation threat since their purpose was twofold: The Environment and Anti-War.

They are having a hard time letting go of some of their knee-jerk anti-nuclear energy stance even though they must if we are to realize a reasonably clean future world when 9 Billion people will be living on it in less than forty years.

That's the political problem the AGW advocates have. They've fallen in with a bad crowd, and it breeds skepticism about their science. This is why they're stuck with the burden of making a crystal-clear case.

201 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:18:29pm

re: #194 allegro

And where is all that hysteria coming from? Is it real? Seriously.


Yes, it's real- the costs projected to be imposed on every household earlier this year by taxing electricity, etc to reduce usage was something like $4000 a year per household. And that was just one aspect proposed. If we commit to a certain level of CO2 reduction, how do you suppose that would be acheived? Voluntarily? Maybe with enough tax credits. Can we afford that right now Federal budget wise? Some of it would have to be enforced.

202 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:18:34pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

Yep we do have some but not nearly to the extent that the French have used it to be energy independent. If we made better use of our nuclear power capability we could dispense with GH producing coal plants.

203 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:20:34pm

re: #202 dwells38

dwells38 -

And still extract lots of "Artificial" Petro Chemicals from coal. -S-

204 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:20:49pm
205 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:20:56pm

re: #199 Cato the Elder

Please don't think for a minute that I would ever defend the JBS's policies or the tactics of McCarthy. I was making a point using a term that I find applicable and had no knowledge of its origins.

The origins of a word or concept, however, do not invalidate the concept as such.

I wasn't implicating you. I was pointing it out because it is something that comes up. AGW as the "new communist" menace. Are there communists in the "movement." No doubt but I don't think that matters. Otherwise if we were to become purists to that end we wouldn't be looking to China to bankroll this country's very existence.

206 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:21:11pm

re: #200 The Curmudgeon

That's the political problem the AGW advocates have. They've fallen in with a bad crowd, and it breeds skepticism about their science. This is why they're stuck with the burden of making a crystal-clear case.

Yes, when I used to point to the anti-science crowd it was Proxmire and the anti nukers, all on the Democrat side. Now the anti science crowd is in my party instead.

207 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:23:03pm

re: #204 yakabebe

I smell a used sock.

208 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:23:04pm

Did anybody read Dan Brown's "The Lost Symbol"?

Freaking. Lame.

There is nothing original in it. Nothing. He started the whole "Da Vinci Code" craze, and since then, about a zillion other authors have used up just about every "secret society" plot you can think of.

209 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:23:11pm

re: #204 yakabebe

White supremacist supporters dont' get linked, I like that, if you don't go the fuck somewhere else.

210 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:23:25pm

re: #202 dwells38

Yep we do have some but not nearly to the extent that the French have used it to be energy independent. If we made better use of our nuclear power capability we could dispense with GH producing coal plants.

Can't. The NIMBY and enviro crowds block new facilities at every turn possible. They have the general public convinced that every plant will become a Chernobyl in their own backyards

211 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:24:24pm

re: #208 Alouette

Did anybody read Dan Brown's "The Lost Symbol"?

Freaking. Lame.

There is nothing original in it. Nothing. He started the whole "Da Vinci Code" craze, and since then, about a zillion other authors have used up just about every "secret society" plot you can think of.

Even worse: He didn't start it. He popularized and packaged it.

This stuff has been making minor fortunes since well before "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".

212 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:24:38pm

The world's first Osmotic Power Plant

213 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:24:55pm

re: #78 Cato the Elder

Then why did they throw it out when the results began to contradict other measurements of temperature change in recent decades?

Because of carbon dioxide fertilization. Until recently, only one variable with centuries-long fluctuations affected tree growth: growing season temperatures. But more recently, CO2 atmospheric content popped higher. One of the tough jobs plants do is to capture CO2 from the atmosphere, strip out the oxygen, and build tissues etc. using that carbon, plus nitrogen, hydrogen, etc. that the roots take up. The more CO2 there is, up to a point anyhow, the easier this is for the plant, so the faster the plant grows.

214 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:25:42pm

re: #204 yakabebe

Yeah- really regressive thinking when sites that host white supremacists aren't welcome. [eye roll]

215 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:27:17pm
216 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:27:25pm
217 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:27:39pm

re: #204 yakabebe

Already kvetching I see.

This isn't Little Yakabebe's Footballs.

218 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:27:44pm

re: #215 woodentop

When I was allowed to join this site I believed it to be a beacon of rationalism.

Which it is.

219 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:28:10pm

Driveby and OT, but What the fuck?
Law enforcement investigating man injured making pipe bombs

Following a pipe bomb explosion Monday night, police and federal law enforcement officials are trying to figure why a Center Avenue man turned his apartment into a bomb factory.

Police said no charges have been filed against Mark Campano, 56. Police found 30 completed pipe bombs in his apartment along with components to make more, plus 17 guns and hundreds of rounds of ammunition.

Campano is in an Akron hospital with injuries received when one of the bombs exploded.

As police and federal authorities puzzle over Campano's past and what he planned to do with the bombs, a former neighbor said Campano often railed against the government.

Barbara Vachon lived next door to Campano at the Center Park Place Apartments for several years and said he was a big reason she moved.

"He was always trying to get me and another neighbor to listen to anti-government tapes and watch anti-government videos," said Vachon. "I would never watch them. He was some kind of radical, and he didn't believe in the government."

220 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:28:35pm

Since this is a Science Saturday type of day...

For this evening's viewing enjoyment, I recommend a public lecture from last spring at the Perimeter Institute titled:

The Drunkard's Walk

Various insights into our biases at interpreting reality.

221 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:28:54pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Already kvetching I see.

This isn't Little Yakabebe's Footballs.

Have you ever noticed you can't spell the word "me" with the letters in "littlegreenfootballs"?

222 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:29:13pm

re: #219 iceweasel

That's profilng, dammit!!

/What? He could be in a union for all we know...

223 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:29:30pm

Yakebebe's a freak. re: #215 woodentop

It is rational, indeed we even understand the meaning of the word "censorship" you apparently do not.

224 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:29:44pm

re: #204 yakabebe

Given the anonymity of commenting on the internet, unmoderated comment threads tend to be defaced by the people who can't moderate themselves.
If you want to go to one of those place, try YouTube.

225 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:29:58pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

Have you ever noticed you can't spell the word "me" with the letters in "littlegreenfootballs"?


But there is an I.

It is lowercase, tho'

226 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:30:10pm

re: #224 jaunte

Given the anonymity of commenting on the internet, unmoderated comment threads tend to be defaced by the people who can't moderate themselves.
If you want to go to one of those place, try YouTube.

Or hot air.

227 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:30:35pm

re: #201 claire

Yes, it's real- the costs projected to be imposed on every household earlier this year by taxing electricity, etc to reduce usage was something like $4000 a year per household. And that was just one aspect proposed. If we commit to a certain level of CO2 reduction, how do you suppose that would be acheived? Voluntarily? Maybe with enough tax credits. Can we afford that right now Federal budget wise? Some of it would have to be enforced.

The only way we will actually reduce carbon emissions by 80% is to find economically sensible alternative sources of energy. We cannot cut energy consumption 80% without wrecking our economy and bringing on mass privation, hunger and sickness and death. [O.K., maybe we could pull through without famine. But it would be painful.] But once we have solar, wind, nuclear etc. at prices at worst marginally higher than coal, then we can switch over and live better in that achievable future than we live now, while drastically cutting our carbon footprint.

228 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:30:39pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

Have you ever noticed you can't spell the word "me" with the letters in "littlegreenfootballs"?

you sure can spell felgre and bleen, though

229 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:31:01pm

re: #210 sattv4u2

Can't. The NIMBY and enviro crowds block new facilities at every turn possible. They have the general public convinced that every plant will become a Chernobyl in their own backyards

Right now in my neck of the New England woods there is a serious proposal for a carbon-neutral biomass power plant.

You should see the greens and the reds and the watermelons coming out of the woodwork to scotch that snake!

Their main objection, aside from the fact that it [shudder] burns stuff and isn't wind-powered, is that the company behind it might actually make money.

Oh, and then there's a new category known as "economy of scale". If I, for example, burn four cords of firewood to heat my house this winter - at an energy / heat efficiency quotient of 30% - that's fine, because I'm a little guy. If the biomass plant burns forty thousand tons in the same time period to heat 4,000 houses at an ehq of 60% - that's evil. Someone said that in a church-hall town meeting, so it must be true.

Of course they're against wind farms, too, if they cast shadows on their view.

230 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:31:03pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

Have you ever noticed you can't spell the word "me" with the letters in "littlegreenfootballs"?

I think they lose sight of that because they're busy looking at themselves in the mirror as they type.

In this case he's running off at the mouth (hands) but probably could have used a cached link which in many cases is acceptable.

231 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:31:04pm

re: #225 Fenway_Nation

But there is an I.

It is lowercase, tho'

"There is no "i" in 'Team America'".

"Yes there is."

232 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:31:23pm

re: #216 yakabebe

It's not censorship, it's content control. It's Charle's site, he's not censoring anyone. You are free to say what you want elsewhere.

233 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:32:30pm

re: #231 Sharmuta

"There is no "i" in 'Team America'".

"Yes there is."


There's a 'Me', too...bonus!

234 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:32:44pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

Have you ever noticed you can't spell the word "me" with the letters in "littlegreenfootballs"?

if you try, you can spell 'butthead' from yakabebe...jus sayin

235 woodentop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:33:25pm

re: #218 Sharmuta

And yet AGW seems to be an "issue"?

236 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:33:40pm

re: #233 Fenway_Nation

Two of them!

237 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:34:02pm

re: #216 yakabebe

SNIP

... Fact is the article Charles pruned ...

Is linked in it's entirety at the top of the post, in case you missed it?

238 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:34:07pm

re: #235 woodentop

And yet AGW seems to be an "issue"?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

239 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:34:09pm
240 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:35:05pm

re: #219 iceweasel

Forgot the obligitory BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA! when I hear news of similar 'workplace accidents'...

241 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:35:42pm

re: #204 yakabebe

You can't be serious that you expect Charles to consider a site that features racists no matter how well-heeled, to be in his links.

Once they go that route he has to cut the chord. Becuase even if they're relatively mild you can bet THEY"RE linking to someone more whacko.

242 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:35:57pm

re: #222 Fenway_Nation

That's profilng, dammit!!

/What? He could be in a union for all we know...

heh. Happy Thanksgiving weekend, Fenway. Did you have a good one? :)

243 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:36:26pm

re: #239 yakabebe

If you want to make an argument about AGW, make it. The whining is unconvincing.

244 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:36:29pm

re: #239 yakabebe

This is private property, and our host can allow or disallow links from sites if he so chooses. If you don't like it, that's too damn bad.

245 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:36:44pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder

Even worse: He didn't start it. He popularized and packaged it.

This stuff has been making minor fortunes since well before "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".

I first heard about the "Holy Grail" conspiracy over 30 years ago, in Seattle.

246 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:37:01pm

OK - I want to start a fringe anti-science movement that will attack gravity and Newton's laws of motion. I think this could be a great performance art piece. Use all the BS anti-science nonsense of the Discovery institute and their kin and show how absurd those arguments are by using them against something much easier to understand (and harder to refute) like gravity.

The thing that opens the door for the conspirasists is that it is very hard to see global warming in your day-to-day. The "hey, it's cold out today, what happened to global warming" argument is just vaguely plausible enough for some people to buy into.

247 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:37:11pm

Speaking of the envrionment, AGW and alternative energy sources, any lizards want to purchase an idle ethanol plant in Oregon?

/Doesn't bode well if a company that refines commodity that already recieves oodles of gov't subsidies goes under.

248 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:37:29pm

What is the deal with Tiger woods "accident"?
sheesh

249 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:37:59pm

re: #239 yakabebe

No it isnt "Yakabebe LG Football" but Charles actions smacks of "its my ball and I'm taking it and going home"

And by the way gus...youre obviously a long-term local and with I'd guess a zillion posts...me...I've got too little to even be allowed to add or substract to the ratings of topics -

just shut up with the sniveling and post...be grateful you can

250 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:38:04pm

re: #246 Cineaste

OK - I want to start a fringe anti-science movement that will attack gravity and Newton's laws of motion. I think this could be a great performance art piece. Use all the BS anti-science nonsense of the Discovery institute and their kin and show how absurd those arguments are by using them against something much easier to understand (and harder to refute) like gravity.

The thing that opens the door for the conspirasists is that it is very hard to see global warming in your day-to-day. The "hey, it's cold out today, what happened to global warming" argument is just vaguely plausible enough for some people to buy into.

Can I be your first member? I don't believe in gravity.

251 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:38:14pm

re: #248 Capitalist Tool

What is the deal with Tiger woods "accident"?
sheesh

Wife involved now? Some craziness

252 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:38:20pm

re: #239 yakabebe

Your critics are so shallow and histrionic it is not worth the time to fisk them.

Whingeing troll whinges. Boring.

253 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:38:40pm

re: #239 yakabebe

No it isnt "Yakabebe LG Football" but Charles actions smacks of "its my ball and I'm taking it and going home"

And by the way gus...youre obviously a long-term local and with I'd guess a zillion posts...me...I've got too little to even be allowed to add or substract to the ratings of topics -

What you're going to play the martyr again? Look at what you just wrote: Charles actions smacks of "its my ball and I'm taking it and going home." Are you that clueless that you don't even realize that you're slandering the host? Or are you? I'm surprised you're still here after these last few posts. I'd suggest that you a) slow down b) stop the slandering and c) compact the size and frequency of your posts with repetitive talking points but I don't think you would listen.

254 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:39:13pm

re: #248 Capitalist Tool

What is the deal with Tiger woods "accident"?
sheesh

All I know is, if I ever get into a car accident in my luxury SUV, I sure as hell would want my hottie Scandanavian wife to smash out the window to pull me to safety.

Of course, I'd need the luxury SUV first...and the hottie Scandanavian wife...

255 TheMatrix31  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:40:03pm

re: #254 Fenway_Nation

SUVs are bad, bro.

/

256 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:40:54pm

Are you this Yakebebe? :

[Link: www.kadaitcha.com...]

257 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:41:26pm

re: #242 iceweasel

Pretty good- avoided the inveitable several-weeks worth of increasingly unappetizing turkey leftovers by having a big pork roast.

Aside from the occasional jaunt to pick-up or drop off @ the airport or train staion, it's been college football and procrastinating on my blog.

258 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:41:41pm

re: #255 TheMatrix31

SUVs are bad, bro.

/

That's what Tiger Woods said but the cops didn't buy it.

/

259 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:41:54pm

re: #255 TheMatrix31

SUVs are bad, bro.

/


What? Even if they're armoured?

260 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:41:57pm

re: #253 Gus 802

What you're going to play the martyr again? Look at what you just wrote: Charles actions smacks of "its my ball and I'm taking it and going home." Are you that clueless that you don't even realize that you're slandering the host? Or are you? I'm surprised you're still here after these last few posts. I'd suggest that you a) slow down b) stop the slandering and c) compact the size and frequency of your posts with repetitive talking points but I don't think you would listen.

It's interesting that yakabebe is more upset his link was deleted than he is to learn PJM is hosting a white supremacist.

261 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:42:08pm

re: #247 Fenway_Nation

Speaking of the envrionment, AGW and alternative energy sources, any lizards want to purchase an idle ethanol plant in Oregon?

/Doesn't bode well if a company that refines commodity that already recieves oodles of gov't subsidies goes under.

Fenway_Nation -

Almost literally like a Liquor Store going out of business. -S-

262 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:42:12pm

re: #251 iceweasel

Wife involved now? Some craziness

lmao

263 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:42:24pm
264 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:42:32pm

re: #229 Cato the Elder

Right now in my neck of the New England woods there is a serious proposal for a carbon-neutral biomass power plant.

You should see the greens and the reds and the watermelons coming out of the woodwork to scotch that snake!

Their main objection, aside from the fact that it [shudder] burns stuff and isn't wind-powered, is that the company behind it might actually make money.

Oh, and then there's a new category known as "economy of scale". If I, for example, burn four cords of firewood to heat my house this winter - at an energy / heat efficiency quotient of 30% - that's fine, because I'm a little guy. If the biomass plant burns forty thousand tons in the same time period to heat 4,000 houses at an ehq of 60% - that's evil. Someone said that in a church-hall town meeting, so it must be true.

Of course they're against wind farms, too, if they cast shadows on their view.

ΠΙΜΦ: Dammit! Fingers on autopilot tonight. There's nothing new about "economy of scale". The new variation is "ethics of scale". Meaning, if I burn a bunch of wood in an inefficient stove at a 30% energy/heat ratio, that's better than if a medium-sized company burns less wood per house at a 50% energy/heat ratio. Because I'm a little guy.

The logical disconnect here is staggering. If 5,000 houses all burn the same amount of wood at the same low e/h ration I get, they put out vastly more CO2 than 5,000 houses each using less total wood and getting a 20% higher heat return per volume. But "little" is better than "big".

As an aside, has anyone noticed that "ethical" has now become the word of choice for those who shy away from "religious" or "moral" justifications? Yet "ethical" can no more be defended without regard to an outside scale of values than religion or morals.

265 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:43:11pm

re: #261 Dr. Shalit

Fenway_Nation -

Almost literally like a Liquor Store going out of business. -S-

It isn't even denatured, DrShalit!

*sob!*

266 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:43:28pm

re: #260 Sharmuta

It's interesting that yakabebe is more upset his link was deleted than he is to learn PJM is hosting a white supremacist.

Yeah, and after yesterdays display and archaic word usage circa 1949 and the days of Jim Crow.

267 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:43:36pm

re: #245 Alouette

I first heard about the "Holy Grail" conspiracy over 30 years ago, in Seattle.

Yeah, it's about that old. Dianna was a big fan of those books (not a believer, mind you, but for their entertainment value).

268 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:43:50pm

re: #263 yakabebe

he wanted to (as I did what i thought was right by posting all sources) he could have deleted the pj url link and left the author's commentary


Why don't you try that instead of complaining some more.

269 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:43:57pm

re: #263 yakabebe

Should we call the whaaabulance for you? You linked to a site that promotes racists, and it was rightfully deleted. That doesn't upset you to learn about PJM? Should Charles allow links to stormfront next, in your opinion?

270 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:44:22pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

I second it. It's obviously a left-wing socialist plot to keep everyone on the same level.

271 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:44:56pm

re: #246 Cineaste

OK - I want to start a fringe anti-science movement that will attack gravity and Newton's laws of motion. I think this could be a great performance art piece. Use all the BS anti-science nonsense of the Discovery institute and their kin and show how absurd those arguments are by using them against something much easier to understand (and harder to refute) like gravity.

The thing that opens the door for the conspirasists is that it is very hard to see global warming in your day-to-day. The "hey, it's cold out today, what happened to global warming" argument is just vaguely plausible enough for some people to buy into.

Don't forget to exploit the angle that Newton was a whack brand of Christian. That will add to the all-round irony.

272 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:45:42pm

re: #263 yakabebe

But instead he snipped the lot

What you're the first person that ever happened to here? Are we supposed to make special rules to accommodate you? Get over yourself.

273 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:46:15pm

re: #263 yakabebe

Why don't you just bite me? Now all your comments are deleted, jerk.

274 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:46:21pm

re: #264 Cato the Elder

n/p

Live in the woods and off the land (defowling it,, killing animals for food, cutting trees for shelter and energry)
GOOD!!
Build something that efficiently provides energy for a large citry AND it's suburbs
BAD !!

275 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:47:08pm

yakabyebye

276 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:47:35pm

Air smells fresher.

277 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:47:45pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

It would be interesting to see how many of these people truly live 'off the grid'.

278 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:47:49pm

Looks like the mass of yakabebe's negative karma has led to a collapse below the Schwarzschild radius...

279 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:48:30pm

If I go over to Yakebozo's house and put a pro gay marriage sticker on his car it would be censorship if he took it off by his logic.

280 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:48:32pm

re: #261 Dr. Shalit

Fenway_Nation -

Almost literally like a Liquor Store going out of business. -S-

Ok. that reminds me... was gonna have my Thanksgiving bourbon sampler tonight.
Do I start with the soft nectar of Basil and work through Four Roses and the like and end up at Blanton's, or maybe start with Bulliet and try a few others or just blow it off and go right for Pappy van Winkle?

281 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:48:51pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

n/p

Live in the woods and off the land (defowling it,, killing animals for food, cutting trees for shelter and energry)
GOOD!!
Build something that efficiently provides energy for a large citry AND it's suburbs
BAD !!

sattv4u2 -

Live in the Woods - and you tend to limit population. Live in cities, not so much as history has shown us. Draw your conclusions.

-S-

282 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:48:57pm

re: #275 jaunte

yakabyebye

Sometimes martyr cookies are too tempting to pass up.

283 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:49:12pm

re: #264 Cato the Elder

That was a tingler! Greenfield? When I was up in Shutesbury this summer, it was a big source of irritation for my friends. I'm looking at a new wood stove - 85% efficiency and 3.5 gr/hr unburned wood particulate.

284 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:49:20pm

re: #277 Fenway_Nation

It would be interesting to see how many of these people truly live 'off the grid'.

Are you kidding me? They're the 1st ones that call (repeatedly) their energy company when a lightbulb in their house so much as flickers!

285 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:49:40pm

re: #263 yakabebe

Bye, now.

286 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:49:45pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

Sometimes martyr cookies are too tempting to pass up.

Especially the banana flavored ones.

/

287 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:50:14pm

OK, that's two meltdowns so far.

288 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:50:27pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

Sometimes martyr cookies are too tempting to pass up.

I think he gets a bonus martyr chip for complaining about not being able to ding yet.

289 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:51:36pm

re: #281 Dr. Shalit

sattv4u2 -

Live in the Woods - and you tend to limit population. Live in cities, not so much as history has shown us. Draw your conclusions.

-S-

Here's my conclusion
Live in the woods you MAY tend to limit populations (ever see the sizes of "mountain folks" clans?) and probably don't contribute much to society on the whole
Live in the city, you're more likely to be a produuctive member of said society

290 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:51:44pm

re: #288 jaunte

I think he gets a bonus martyr chip for complaining about not being able to ding yet.

I laughed at that one...I don't ding, and now neither does he

291 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:52:14pm

I think it was a socky tag team.

292 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:52:59pm

re: #288 jaunte

I think he gets a bonus martyr chip for complaining about not being able to ding yet.

Martyrdom Martyrding.

293 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:53:38pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Martyrdom Martyrding.

me ,, i prefer Ring Dings!
(((with a nice big glass of ice cold milk!!))

294 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:53:47pm

re: #291 Thanos

I think it was a socky tag team.

Yaka and Wooden. Looks like Rambo is still in the swamp. /

295 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:53:51pm

re: #267 Cato the Elder

Yeah, it's about that old. Dianna was a big fan of those books (not a believer, mind you, but for their entertainment value).

I was talking about Dan Brown's latest book, not DVC. The new book is just a retread of ideas that were already explored in the Nic Cage movie "National Treasure"

296 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:54:23pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Martyrdom Martyrding.

Marturding?

297 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:54:49pm

re: #283 Jeff In Ohio

re: #284 sattv4u2

Heh...next time I'm back there, I'll just some of my sister's green friends if they already sent their check off to Northeast Utilities.

298 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:55:03pm

re: #283 Jeff In Ohio

That was a tingler! Greenfield? When I was up in Shutesbury this summer, it was a big source of irritation for my friends. I'm looking at a new wood stove - 85% efficiency and 3.5 gr/hr unburned wood particulate.

This is one of the adverse consequences of high energy prices and taxation. Wood burning will become more popular the higher prices go, and that hurts the carbon balance by removing trees as well as adding to pollution. When I was in Alaska in June I found a lot of people reverting back to their woodstoves, and that's not a good thing.

299 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #295 Alouette

Historical kookspiracies can only go so far as a genre, imo.

300 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:57:11pm

re: #298 Thanos

This is one of the adverse consequences of high energy prices and taxation. Wood burning will become more popular the higher prices go, and that hurts the carbon balance by removing trees as well as adding to pollution. When I was in Alaska in June I found a lot of people reverting back to their woodstoves, and that's not a good thing.

especially burning pine trees in lieu of hardwoods

301 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:58:03pm

re: #298 Thanos

This is one of the adverse consequences of high energy prices and taxation. Wood burning will become more popular the higher prices go, and that hurts the carbon balance by removing trees as well as adding to pollution. When I was in Alaska in June I found a lot of people reverting back to their woodstoves, and that's not a good thing.

Thanos -

Staying Warm and Alive 'til the Natural Gas Pipeline is online is a positive thing.

-S-

302 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:58:34pm

re: #300 albusteve

especially burning pine trees in lieu of hardwoods

Yes, there's a lot of black spruce that gets burnt up there.

303 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:59:31pm

Yakkybozo followed up with an insulting email, of course.

He should have been blocked after that "negro" comment he made yesterday.

304 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:59:35pm

re: #299 Sharmuta

Historical kookspiracies can only go so far as a genre, imo.

I'll sum up the book:

1. Masons are really just a swell bunch of really intelligent guys who enjoy some exotic ceremonies.
2. The bad guy is this really creepy tattooed dude.
3. Professor Langdon, who was an agnostic in the previous books, has become a practicing Catholic, attending mass and taking Communion regularly. (Dan Brown does not want the Catholic Church pissed at him)
4. Noetics woowoo is presented as "real science"

305 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #303 Charles

If he's the same Yakabebe I found it looks like he's been banned other places as well.

306 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:00:49pm

re: #195 Gus 802

He sure would have.

Einstein was a socialist and a friend of Paul Robeson. He would have been another one.

As was my dear departed grandmother.

Fuck Glenn Beck.

307 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:00:54pm

The Flounce-O-Meter™ has picked up images of the raging unconscious mind of
yakabebe flouncing into the ether.

308 pyrodoctor  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:02:37pm

re: #24 StillAMarine

One cause of the bunker mentality that Charles mentions is that early climate change warnings were done in a disingenuous manner

There has been dishonesty on both sides of the argument. That is why I consider myself a skeptic. I'm not a denier -- the evidence that the climate is changing is readily apparent. It is the causal relationship that CO2 is the cause of it that I'm not sure of. The vikings were farming in Greenland in the 1200s. The climate is always changing.

I think that the whole "global warming" thing is a big red herring. The fact is that 90% of the things that the US should be doing to combat global warming (if we are indeed the cause of it) the US should be doing anyway because our energy usage is unsustainable and our enemies have the oil we need to carry on the way we are.

I'm just not down with the cap and trade crap. If they want to regulate CO2 they should just regulate it and let us see the obvious economic effects of them regulating it. All cap and trade is going to do is 1) hurt the economy; 2) create a huge amount of graft and corruption; and 3) create another false economic bubble to pop based on non-existent wealth. It is not going to reduce CO2 emissions.

309 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:03:31pm

re: #298 Thanos

This is one of the adverse consequences of high energy prices and taxation. Wood burning will become more popular the higher prices go, and that hurts the carbon balance by removing trees as well as adding to pollution. When I was in Alaska in June I found a lot of people reverting back to their woodstoves, and that's not a good thing.

I can only speak for myself. We only cut diseased, dead or down trees. With the infestation of the emerald ash bore, last years 'hurricane', and Kentucky sitting on mostly rock, decent wood in these parts is plentiful for the short term. I cut and stacked 3 years this summer.

310 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:07:31pm

re: #309 Jeff In Ohio

I can only speak for myself. We only cut diseased, dead or down trees. With the infestation of the emerald ash bore, last years 'hurricane', and Kentucky sitting on mostly rock, decent wood in these parts is plentiful for the short term. I cut and stacked 3 years this summer.

I'm not criticizing, I do have friends in both camps. It is irrefutable however that woodsmoke puts a lot of toxins in the air no matter how you burn it.

311 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:07:52pm

Burning wood is also carbon neutral. The amount of CO2 the tree pulled from the atmosphere is the same it puts back out when burned. The caveat is the need for sustainability. But isn't it always?

312 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:09:18pm

re: #283 Jeff In Ohio

That was a tingler! Greenfield? When I was up in Shutesbury this summer, it was a big source of irritation for my friends. I'm looking at a new wood stove - 85% efficiency and 3.5 gr/hr unburned wood particulate.

Yeah, Greenfield.

Some unnamed ecofascist put out a wanted poster with the picture of the man behind the biomass plant.

"Wanted - Dead or Alive - For Crimes Against the Planet."

313 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:10:15pm

re: #295 Alouette

I was talking about Dan Brown's latest book, not DVC. The new book is just a retread of ideas that were already explored in the Nic Cage movie "National Treasure"

Exactly.

314 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:11:28pm

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

Here is Mark Steyn's version of the situation.

315 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:11:54pm

re: #311 Jeff In Ohio

Yes but it puts stuff like this in the air:
# dioxin
# lead
# cadmium
# arsenic
# carbon monoxide
# methane
# aldehydes
# formaldehyde
# acrolein
# propionaldehyde
# butyl aldehyde
# acetaldehyde
# substituted furans
# benzenes
# toluene
# acetic acid
# formic acid
# nitrogen oxides (NO, NO2)
# sulfur dioxide
# methyl chloride
# naphthalene
# oxygenated monoaromatics
# guaiacol (and derivatives)
# phenol (and derivatives)
# syringol (and derivatives)
# catechol (and derivatives)
# particulate organic carbon
# polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons
# Fluorene
# phenanthrene
# anthracene
# methylanthracenes
# Fluoranthene
# chrysene
# benzofluoranthenes
# benzo(e)pyrene
# benzo(a)pyrene
# perylene
# ideno(1,2,3-cd)
# pyrene
# coronene

That's only a partial list of the toxins.

316 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:12:44pm

re: #314 PhillyPretzel

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

Here is Mark Steyn's version of the situation.

Mark Steyn has no credibility at all on climate change. He's a determined denialist, and has dutifully promoted every bogus talking point of the right wing.

317 captdiggs  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:12:54pm

re: #241 dwells38

You can't be serious that you expect Charles to consider a site that features racists

I must have missed that. What site?

318 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:13:36pm

re: #205 Gus 802

I wasn't implicating you. I was pointing it out because it is something that comes up. AGW as the "new communist" menace. Are there communists in the "movement." No doubt but I don't think that matters. Otherwise if we were to become purists to that end we wouldn't be looking to China to bankroll this country's very existence.

I have to disagree.

LGW took on the "anti-jihad" crackpots for making alliances with fascists and white supremacists.

The ecology movement will have to distances itself from those whose primary concern is political power and social engineering, or it will fail.

319 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:13:42pm

Ah, a breath of fresh air from the AGW science group.
Now perhaps one could let opinions be opinions and facts be facts; and let opinions about facts not be confused with facts about opinions.
Good evening LGF.

320 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:13:46pm

re: #316 Charles

I accept your explaination. No problem.

321 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:13:48pm

re: #310 Thanos

That's true of older stoves. Stoves that meet Washington State guidelines or 1995 EPA certification are pretty clean in their burn (and qualify for a 30% tax break.)

322 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:14:09pm

re: #316 Charles

Mark Steyn has no credibility at all on climate change.

Or on any other subject as well.

323 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:14:14pm

Interesting points about the JBS "Watermellon" talking point upthread. I think it really explains why conservatives are generally opposed to environmental protection and global warming. There's nothing really "conservative" about opposing these things but if they're viewed as a communist plot I guess that explains why conservatives instinctively resist.

324 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:14:24pm

re: #315 Thanos

Can you source that for me?
thanks!

325 Summer Seale  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:14:29pm

OT:

This just in! Palin and Bachmann, together at last:

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

326 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:15:23pm

I see "Yanqui in Europe" is downdinging everything I say, without ever exposing his own ideas to scrutiny.

Come out and play, wuss.

327 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:15:31pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

I am sorry for the post. Please excuse me.

328 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:17:02pm

re: #316 Charles

Mark Steyn has no credibility at all on climate change. He's a determined denialist, and has dutifully promoted every bogus talking point of the right wing.

I think that's a requirement for somebody who wants to be a substitute for Rush on occasion.

329 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:17:02pm

re: #327 PhillyPretzel

No need to apologize if you're not aware he's prone to promoting crack-pot talking points.

330 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:17:36pm

re: #317 captdiggs

I must have missed that. What site?

captdiggs -

pajamasmedia, that is all. -S-

331 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:17:53pm

re: #326 Cato the Elder

I see "Yanqui in Europe" is downdinging everything I say, without ever exposing his own ideas to scrutiny.

Come out and play, wuss.

Oh ,,, how cute,, you have your own stalker !

332 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:18:18pm

re: #325 Summer

OT:

This just in! Palin and Bachmann, together at last:

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

The "First National Tea Party Convention." Wow. I think they should just rename it "Kookfest 2010." Much more accurate name.

333 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:18:53pm

re: #321 Jeff In Ohio

They still put that stuff in the air no matter how clean they burn - when fresh fuel is fed, when the fire's are started, when humidity is too high or too low, etc. There's no such thing as a 100 pct clean burning wood stove.

I have no beef with occasional fires, ornamental fires, I've been know to smoke some ribs, and I used to heat with wood myself when I lived in the Goldstream valley. I stopped that after a couple of winters of waking up every am with a headache. No, it wasn't my stove. It was my stove+my neighbor's stoves+temperature inversions trapping the pollutants in the valley.

334 Summer Seale  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:18:54pm

re: #332 Charles

The "First National Tea Party Convention." Wow. I think they should just rename it "Kookfest 2010." Much more accurate name.

Oh I can think of...so many other names as well. Most of which I couldn't possibly reprint here in public. =)

335 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:20:30pm

re: #325 Summer

OT:

This just in! Palin and Bachmann, together at last:

There should be a law of the universe that prohibits that, sort of like the exclusion principal.

Next time, when I get to create the universe, maybe it will.

336 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:20:45pm

re: #333 Thanos

waking up every am with a headache

Most of that is becuase of the oxygen the fire takes out of your home rather than what is going up the chimney

337 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:22:02pm

re: #335 freetoken

There should be a law of the universe that prohibits that, sort of like the exclusion principal.

Next time, when I get to create the universe, maybe it will.

There is a real danger here that this event could trigger the Kookularity -- an until-now hypothetical event in which the universe turns inside out, starts drooling, and makes Jerry Lewis noises.

338 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:22:40pm

re: #337 Charles

There is a real danger here that this event could trigger the Kookularity -- an until-now hypothetical event in which the universe turns inside out, starts drooling, and makes Jerry Lewis noises.

Will we all have to move to France??

339 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:23:42pm

re: #338 sattv4u2

Will we all have to move to France??

There is no hell, only France- so yes.

340 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:23:51pm

re: #324 Jeff In Ohio

Well I originally posted the list here, but had to kill it when it went dead. I found in in a PDF at the EPA way back when I wrote the article.
[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]


Here's another source for some of the pollutants as well :

[Link: burningissues.org...]

341 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:24:04pm

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Interesting points about the JBS "Watermellon" talking point upthread. I think it really explains why conservatives are generally opposed to environmental protection and global warming. There's nothing really "conservative" about opposing these things but if they're viewed as a communist plot I guess that explains why conservatives instinctively resist.

I think there are many conservatives who view the political solutions to environmental issues and global warming to be a grab by government for more and more control over our everyday lives. Some are also unconcerned about the environment, others (like me) are very concerned. But we don't like being dictated to by those who see no need to exercise any control over their OWN environmental impact while lecturing the rest of us on how we live (which is why Al Gore keeps coming up in these threads).

342 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:24:08pm

OT: I'm still confused over a decision to sign up with a webhost company. The choices do seem endless.

There are sites out there that claim to rank popular hosting companies:
[Link: webhostingrating.com...]
[Link: www.webhostingsearch.com...]
[Link: webhostinggeeks.com...]
[Link: www.top10webhosting.com...]

Though I have no clue whether I should trust them or if they are getting paid to represent these companies.

So, anyone here use JustHost or Inmotion? They seem to be quite competitively priced. Or should I just go with the big names (GoDaddy, Yahoo)?

343 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:24:31pm

re: #339 Sharmuta

There is no hell, only France- so yes.

((in my best Jerry Lewis nasaly voice))

Ohh ,, LAAAdddyyy!!!

344 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:25:18pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

I want to register with some sock puppets just to upding you more

345 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:25:32pm

re: #338 sattv4u2

Will we all have to move to France??

I hope so.

That way, maybe I'll get to move back to the U.S.

346 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:26:20pm

re: #342 freetoken

GoDaddy works for me..easy..cheap...

347 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:26:26pm

re: #345 ryannon

I hope so.

That way, maybe I'll get to move back to the U.S.


I'm sure we have room for you now!

348 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:27:37pm

re: #347 sattv4u2

I'm sure we have room for you now!

You have no idea how good just hearing that makes me feel :-)

349 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:27:38pm

re: #346 HoosierHoops

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking of having several different domain names (heh... one for each pseudonym). GoDaddy charges extra for that, from what I can tell.

Otherwise, are you happy with their support?

350 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:28:36pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

Good points.

351 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:29:32pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

P.S. I've finished proofing my portion of the cookbook.

352 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:29:57pm

re: #333 Thanos

I understand and only disagree on matters of degree and potential. The kind of stove, the proximity of neighbors, the kind of wood (dry, seasoned hardwood) and the general awareness of the person burning the wood can mitigate the amount and effect of the toxins discharged. IS it a dirty fuel - no argument. Do I like burning wood - no, it's a lot of work. For us it's a bridge between oil and solar and I believe a responsible person can burn wood responsibly.

353 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:29:57pm

re: #349 freetoken

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking of having several different domain names (heh... one for each pseudonym). GoDaddy charges extra for that, from what I can tell.

Otherwise, are you happy with their support?

Yes..I have no issues with them...But I think most hosting companies are probably good...
/OK the newsletters are fun to read..nudge nudge

354 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:29:59pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

P.S. I've finished proofing my portion of the cookbook.

Oh, yay!
Just e-mail me the corrections -
and Thank you!

355 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:30:15pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

I think there are many conservatives who view the political solutions to environmental issues and global warming to be a grab by government for more and more control over our everyday lives. Some are also unconcerned about the environment, others (like me) are very concerned. But we don't like being dictated to by those who see no need to exercise any control over their OWN environmental impact while lecturing the rest of us on how we live (which is why Al Gore keeps coming up in these threads).

The fact that widespread belief in AGW has managed to survive the Goreacle's distortions and self-aggrandizing pronouncements is very powerful evidence that AGW is indeed real.

356 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:31:16pm

re: #332 Charles

The "First National Tea Party Convention." Wow. I think they should just rename it "Kookfest 2010." Much more accurate name.

Well, hell. Anyone live near Nashville? I think the lizards should send an observer.

357 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:31:46pm

re: #342 freetoken

OT: I'm still confused over a decision to sign up with a webhost company. The choices do seem endless.

There are sites out there that claim to rank popular hosting companies:
[Link: webhostingrating.com...]
[Link: www.webhostingsearch.com...]
[Link: webhostinggeeks.com...]
[Link: www.top10webhosting.com...]

Though I have no clue whether I should trust them or if they are getting paid to represent these companies.

So, anyone here use JustHost or Inmotion? They seem to be quite competitively priced. Or should I just go with the big names (GoDaddy, Yahoo)?

Don't know about those hosts, but I've been very happy with Hosting Matters for years. There's a link to them at the bottom of the page -- check them out too. Hosting plans start at $6 a month.

358 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:33:00pm

re: #340 Thanos

Thanks! I'll give them a read.

359 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:34:42pm

re: #357 Charles

Thanks.

Who would have thought that such a choice would be so overwhelming.

Something tells me that there are more sites/blogs created per day than new people getting internet connections.

It'll be interesting to see how the web develops over the next 10 years. It appears as if the portables will drive the future, with cell phones and the new tablets coming online.

360 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:35:15pm

re: #349 freetoken

I've been using Go Daddy for years. Never needed support and their add ons are useful. Their site layout, given their business, sucks.

361 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:36:45pm

Stop the world, I want to get off moment:

Climate change denier Nick Griffin to represent EU at Copenhagen
BNP leader who believes climate change activists are 'cranks' will be member of European parliament's delegation

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

362 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:36:48pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

Just e-mail me the corrections -
and Thank you!

I edited the originals and saved them on google docs. Was I not supposed to do that? I suppose I could copy/paste them into an email to you. Would that be ok?

363 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:37:09pm

re: #360 Jeff In Ohio

Thanks. That what I noticed too, so many of these companies have website designs that look like they came out of some really cheap comic book back page of the type when I was kid.

364 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:37:12pm

re: #358 Jeff In Ohio

Thanks! I'll give them a read.

I don't think a person in the US heating with wood responsibly is a big deal. When you get whole exurban ghettos like those outside Rio and Mexico City heating with wood it turns into a dire health problem.

365 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:37:34pm

re: #360 Jeff In Ohio

I've been using Go Daddy for years. Never needed support and their add ons are useful. Their site layout, given their business, sucks.

BUT ,, they have DANICA!!!

366 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:38:10pm

re: #361 ryannon

So Inhofe's "truth squad" will be in good company...

//.

367 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:38:16pm

re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist

Good idea.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:38:35pm

re: #361 ryannon

Stop the world, I want to get off moment:

Climate change denier Nick Griffin to represent EU at Copenhagen
BNP leader who believes climate change activists are 'cranks' will be member of European parliament's delegation

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Maybe they'll convert him.

//Ohhh, this could be fun to watch.

369 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:38:42pm

It was obvious all along to those who were paying attention:

Tea parties emerge as revenue stream

Tapping into the deep reservoir of anger on the right at President Barack Obama and Congress has turned out to be a financial boon to a diverse collection of tea party-affiliated political groups and candidates soliciting donations and raising money from the sale of T-shirts, books and paraphernalia.

The tea party brand has proved to be a potent source of revenue for new for-profit companies funding — among other things — an upcoming convention keynoted by Sarah Palin, for established national non-profit groups soliciting small donations and for political action committees and long-shot candidates raising hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to overcome sometimes long electoral odds.

[...]

370 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:38:55pm

re: #365 sattv4u2

That commercial cracks me up

371 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:39:11pm

re: #365 sattv4u2

Yeah...I guess Dick Buttons was unavailable.
/

372 ghazidor  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:41:54pm

re: #361 ryannon

Stop the world, I want to get off moment:

Climate change denier Nick Griffin to represent EU at Copenhagen
BNP leader who believes climate change activists are 'cranks' will be member of European parliament's delegation

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Think he will propose the extermination of all "non-white" people to combat AGW?

/

373 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:41:55pm

re: #363 freetoken

Thanks. That what I noticed too, so many of these companies have website designs that look like they came out of some really cheap comic book back page of the type when I was kid.


A lot of the same kids. They just grew up and starting web hosting companies.

374 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:42:56pm

re: #355 Spare O'Lake

The fact that widespread belief in AGW has managed to survive the Goreacle's distortions and self-aggrandizing pronouncements is very powerful evidence that AGW is indeed real.

Agree!

375 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:44:19pm

re: #362 Killgore Trout

I edited the originals and saved them on google docs. Was I not supposed to do that? I suppose I could copy/paste them into an email to you. Would that be ok?

Yes, that's fine.
Did you highlight the corrections in some way?
I need to be able to identify where in the PDF the errors are, because that's what will be used to print the book.

376 nogendavid  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:44:39pm

Read more about the controversy lately, and after reading some more pro and co material, and I'm still agnostic (or if you wish, "a dupe of junk science" or a "denialistist" or "a downdingable dope).

-the language of consensus statements (“likely”, “significant effect”, etc) is loose . Precisely how likely and how significant is carbon released by human activity compared to other forces? ; How deleterious - and how beneficial in other respects? is the impact of several degrees of warming?
-how much of the different pieces of the consensus are actually decided by various groups that are very small. If any one any one piece is wrong - contemporary or past temperature averages, theories about the impact or non-impact of solar heat variation, magnetic fields, etc - maybe that taints the whole model? In some enterprises errors tend to cancel each other out - but that may be where everyone is estimating the same thing, not relying on someone else’s estimate to do their own piece of the puzzle;
=The data on past temperatures using different estimates seem to have the same general trend but vary by about a degree. So how precise are those estimates?
-The data on contemporary temperatures seems problematic - much depends on where taken, how you average daytime and night time if clear there is any warming;
-if t he data, and present has to be massaged, and the models are massaged, how reliable are the projections that results?
-you can always retrofit a model to fit past data, why didn’t they predict flattening or drop in temperatures (at least on land) the last decade? I don’t say a decade proves or disproves anything about the long term trend, but if the models are so good, why do they not account for the last decade?
-there is still controversy in the scientific mainstream about major long-term trends in the past - not just temperature records the last decade- such as what causes ice ages to come and go, and whether in the context Co2 increases were the cause of or caused by warming
-we know with certainty that temperatures fall and rise without human intervention - there are still ice age remnant glaciers in my country.

If the issue is seen as making choices under conditions of uncertainty - extent of GE, extent of A contribution, positive and negative impacts - we might act more sensibly, and do more good and less harm, that taking drastic steps based on an false sense of certainty and precision. I was, and did support a ban on ozone-destroyed chemicals - even if the science was possibly mistaken, there was a good chance it was right, the impact would have been all negative, and the costs of the ban were not that high. Reducing growth in a major way has serious human impacts- some of them lethal. Higher standards of living are associated with improved environmental standards, life expectancy and health.

To repeat: I believe Oswald acted alone, terrorists caused 9/11, Roosevelt didn’t know about Pearl harbor in advance, evolution is true, Beck is nuts, etc, etc. On this one issue, after reading more and more - and still being very far from expert - I still think a reasonable person can reasonably be doubtful.

377 zuckerlilly  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:45:25pm

re: #361 ryannon

Stop the world, I want to get off moment:

Climate change denier Nick Griffin to represent EU at Copenhagen
BNP leader who believes climate change activists are 'cranks' will be member of European parliament's delegation

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

And Andreas Moelzer - the mastermind behind the new Fascist movement in the European Parliament - is pro AGW. So what ?

378 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:45:59pm

re: #372 ausador

Think he will propose the extermination of all "non-white" people to combat AGW?

/

Unbelievable...must be some kind of a set-up to discredit the deniers by putting a fascist with zero credibility at the podium.

379 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:47:00pm

re: #376 nogendavid

Don't agree with everything you said nor all of your conclusions, but I updinged you for saying it in a non flammatory and thoughtful way

380 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:47:15pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

Or on any other subject as well.

Mark Steyn is getting slammed in here? When did I miss that train? Yikes.

381 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:47:41pm

Sharmuta,

The tree ring data Cato was talking about is discussed concerns living tree-ring data that doesn't agree with instumental data since about 1960. I'm no longer able to link to things (whenever I hit a button, my screen jumps around 1/2 the height of the screen- can't even preview any more, I get the strip ad at the bottom of the page about 1/2 the time...IE...)

It's something you should read about to understand what everybody else is squawking about. Scienceblogs, Nov 22, 2009 "Hacked E-mails, Tree-Ring Proxies and Blogospheric Confusion."

382 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:47:58pm

re: #88 Cato the Elder

But it has a very large bearing on my opinion of those who want anybody but themselves to sacrifice on a large scale.

To me, "do as I say, not as I do" doesn't project a favorable opinion of the person that practices it. In Al Gore's case (and others like him), it doesn't necessarily invalidate what he's saying about global warming, but it does make him look like a hypocritical ass.

383 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:48:58pm

re: #380 borgcube

It was something I posted a link from National Review.

384 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:50:37pm

re: #377 zuckerlilly

And Andreas Moelzer - the mastermind behind the new Fascist movement in the European Parliament - is pro AGW. So what ?

Hadn't considered it that way, but I guess that makes it all ok.

385 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:51:33pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

Just an FYI I learned yesterday.

If that's true, then bully for Al Gore...if you talk the talk, then you need to walk the walk.

386 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:26pm

re: #380 borgcube

Mark Steyn is getting slammed in here? When did I miss that train? Yikes.

His wholesale write-off and condemnation of the entire religion of Islam does not sit well with those who still hold out hope for moderate Muslims to finally get off their cowardly asses by speaking out, reforming their religion and casting out the Islamofascists.

387 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:30pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

Did you highlight the corrections in some way?
I need to be able to identify where in the PDF the errors are, because that's what will be used to print the book.


Oops, I'm so sorry but I didn't highlight my corrections and since I edited the originals I have nothing to compare them to. Mostly it was just spelling, punctuation and grammar corrections. If I send you the edited versions could you just paste them into the PDF?

388 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:37pm

re: #376 nogendavid

It can be confusing- you have to spend just ages reading about it to even start to get a handle on it.

IPCC uses "likely" and "very likely" as being 66% and 90% probable, if that helps with the vagueness.

389 Athens Runaway  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:40pm

re: #289 sattv4u2

Here's my conclusion
Live in the woods you MAY tend to limit populations (ever see the sizes of "mountain folks" clans?) and probably don't contribute much to society on the whole
Live in the city, you're more likely to be a produuctive member of said society

Either you're an elitist snob who looks down on people for not wanting to live in sardine can-housing complexes and shuffling TPS Reports for a living, or you're just being a troll.

390 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:54:30pm

re: #383 PhillyPretzel

It was something I posted a link from National Review.

Yeah, and I saw that you apologized for it. We're all big boys and girls. Disagreement is allowed. If you liked the Steyn column, say so. No big woop. No need to apologize for Pete's sake.

And to be honest, I've got to do some homework to find out where Steyn fell out of favor at least with some here. Rather shocked to say the least.

391 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:55:15pm

re: #385 talon_262


11% reduction in your electricity usage is hardly "walkin' the walk", lol.

392 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:55:49pm

re: #384 ryannon

Hadn't considered it that way, but I guess that makes it all ok.

Well, it does indicate a lack of solidarity within the European fascist circles on scientific matters, which is probably good.

393 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:55:52pm

re: #389 Athens Runaway

Either you're an elitist snob who looks down on people for not wanting to live in sardine can-housing complexes and shuffling TPS Reports for a living, or you're just being a troll.

There's a third possibility that you, of course, did not consider. # 289 was a written response IN CONTEXT with other comments (specifically the person I was interacting with) at the time

394 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:01pm

re: #389 Athens Runaway

Either you're an elitist snob who looks down on people for not wanting to live in sardine can-housing complexes and shuffling TPS Reports for a living, or you're just being a troll.

Because Lord knows, everyone who lives in a city lives in a housing complex with sardine-can qualities, and shuffles TPS reports for a living.

395 claire  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:26pm

re: #390 borgcube

Yeah, I'm not very comfortable with viewing the world as having two types of people in it. Those who are right about every single thing, and those who are wrong about every single thing.

396 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:43pm

326 Cato the Elder

Sure, let's just take an example (and this is something I didn't down-ding, by the way):

"LGW took on the "anti-jihad" crackpots for making alliances with fascists and white supremacists. The ecology movement will have to distances itself from those whose primary concern is political power and social engineering, or it will fail."

The issues allegedly raised by the stolen CRU data have to with whether we should trust the scientists on the reality of AGW. Charles has taken on the AGW deniers on this question. I don't think it's therefore incumbent upon him to take on some part of the "ecology movement" that is motivated by something other than the facts about climate change plus the desire to see to it that our civilization survives past the next century. I don't think Charles ever signed up for any such movement. If he were asked to participate in specific events/actions -- as he was in the anti-Jihad case -- he would be right to refuse if they embraced groups as morally objectionable as the VB, etc.

If you want explanations as to why I down-dinged other things you said, go ahead and ask. I'll tell you.

397 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:55pm

re: #385 talon_262

If that's true, then bully for Al Gore...if you talk the talk, then you need to walk the walk.

398 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:58:05pm

re: #386 Spare O'Lake

His wholesale write-off and condemnation of the entire religion of Islam does not sit well with those who still hold out hope for moderate Muslims to finally get off their cowardly asses by speaking out, reforming their religion and casting out the Islamofascists.

Hope is bullshit. Especially hoping for that. I stand by Steyn with at least that take. I wrote off Islam as well. It's broken beyond repair in my opinion, not that it was ever right from the get-go for that matter.

399 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:58:30pm

re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist

Because Lord knows, everyone who lives in a city lives in a housing complex with sardine-can qualities, and shuffles TPS reports for a living.

HEY ,, MOVE over ,,, your elbow is in my eye!!

400 zuckerlilly  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:58:32pm

re: #384 ryannon

Hadn't considered it that way, but I guess that makes it all ok.

No, but he is a member of the Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety

There is nothing special about his membership otherwise the EU-Parliament would abuse it's own rules. He is an elected MP.

401 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:59:11pm

re: #385 talon_262

If that's true, then bully for Al Gore...if you talk the talk, then you need to walk the walk.

I would have preferred if he walked the walk PRIOR to talking the talk, not the other way around

402 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:00:07pm

re: #391 claire

11% reduction in your electricity usage is hardly "walkin' the walk", lol.

At the rate I recall the Gore Manse use of energy, 11% IS a significant amout

403 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:00:20pm

re: #392 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, it does indicate a lack of solidarity within the European fascist circles on scientific matters, which is probably good.

I didn't even bother to include the 'dripping' sarc tag.

But may they both may they both piss up the same rope, whatever their opinions about scientific matters.

404 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:00:37pm

re: #398 borgcube

Hope is bullshit. Especially hoping for that. I stand by Steyn with at least that take. I wrote off Islam as well. It's broken beyond repair in my opinion, not that it was ever right from the get-go for that matter.

Before you write off more than a billion people, you might want to read this:

[Link: www.memri.org...]

405 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:02:33pm

re: #398 borgcube

Hope is bullshit. Especially hoping for that. I stand by Steyn with at least that take. I wrote off Islam as well. It's broken beyond repair in my opinion, not that it was ever right from the get-go for that matter.

That point of view is not uncommon. Unfortunately it is a very short ride from that view to the dangerous extemist pronouncements of the Eurofascists.

406 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:03:14pm

re: #318 Cato the Elder

I have to disagree.

LGW took on the "anti-jihad" crackpots for making alliances with fascists and white supremacists.

The ecology movement will have to distances itself from those whose primary concern is political power and social engineering, or it will fail.

I look at it from the ouside since I currently do not belong to any ecology/environmentalist group. I was a Sierra Club member for one year and went to a David Brower lecture many years ago. They are a rather mainstream organization.

It should be noted that Edmund Muskie (D) is considered the father of American environmentalism and champion of the Clean Air and Water Acts. He worked within the system to effect change that we take for granted today. He is also known for working across the aisle:

He could convince Senator Jim Buckley to cosponsor the 1972 Clean Water Act. Buckley came to understand the relationship between his conservative political philosophy and the concept of conservation under Muskie's tutelage. As a result, he became an articulate supporter of the landmark 1972 Clean Water Act. As Buckley said: "I know of no situation in private life where a newcomer would have been accorded greater consideration, or where differences of opinion would have been given a fairer hearing than that which was characteristic of both the Committee on Public Works and its Subcommittee on Air and Water Pollution. I feel particularly fortunate to be a member of both and to have been able to work with the two chairmen and the committee staff, who have made so great an effort to accommodate differences of approach to common objectives."

Jim Buckley of course was the brother of William F. Buckley and a US Senator for the State of New York and a member of the Conservative Party.
...

This quote sums it up nicely:

A technical solution to auto emissions requires a little faith, but not much. In any event, physical engineering is always easier than social engineering, and in a free society physical engineering is supposed to be more palatable than social engineering.

To that I would add that first one needs to set the auto emissions standards and policies first in both code and statues -- this is a social act done to meet the health and environmental needs of society. Then utilize the physical solution.

407 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:04:12pm

re: #400 zuckerlilly

No, but he is a member of the Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety

There is nothing special about his membership otherwise the EU-Parliament would abuse it's own rules. He is an elected MP.

Given the rules of the EU Parliament, Adolf Hitler would also be an elected MP.

Fuck the EU and whores they rode in on.

408 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:04:51pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

Can I be your first member? I don't believe in gravity.

Absolutely. We'll call you the Minister of Counter-Intuitive Truthiness!

409 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:06:21pm

re: #271 Cato the Elder

Don't forget to exploit the angle that Newton was a whack brand of Christian. That will add to the all-round irony.

Maybe we'll have to add a plank to the platform says the Catholic Church was wrong to forgive Galileo!

410 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:06:24pm

re: #404 Charles

I just don't expect anything good from Islam as a whole. Ever. I think its track record is pretty solid. How's that?

Can you say "fatwa" for Al-Siyassa? His article will go nowhere and do nothing. Noted that it was not released in Saudi Arabia.

411 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:07:09pm

Pun intended? LOL!

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

412 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:07:25pm

re: #408 Cineaste

Absolutely. We'll call you the Minister of Counter-Intuitive Truthiness!

Not only do I not believe in gravity, I insist we teach astrology in science class.

413 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:09:42pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

Not only do I not believe in gravity, I insist we teach astrology in science class.

Gravity sucks!

414 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:10:13pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

Not only do I not believe in gravity, I insist we teach astrology in science class.

Gravity..Stay the hell away from me...
-John Mayer

415 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:11:22pm

re: #413 sattv4u2

Gravity sucks!

That's heavy, man...

416 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:12:43pm

re: #412 Sharmuta

Not only do I not believe in gravity, I insist we teach astrology in science class.

I don't know Sharm. I'm not sure I like the sound of it... sounds an awful lot like astronomy to me and that Galilei dude was a nut.

How about we call it the Painted Stars!

417 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:13:07pm

re: #288 jaunte

Which I didn't understand even. I didn't realize ding-ability was or could be graduated. I'm pretty sure I've updinged actual posts and I'm also quite sure I'm a rather miniscule blip on Charles radar.

418 DocRambo  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:14:44pm

Will the astrology section come before or after the Tarot reading section? Perhaps we can have an extended section on parthenogenesis since we can forget genetics, DNA, and evolution. Should leave plenty of time.

419 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:15:23pm

re: #417 dwells38

Which I didn't understand even. I didn't realize ding-ability was or could be graduated. I'm pretty sure I've updinged actual posts and I'm also quite sure I'm a rather miniscule blip on Charles radar.

You have over 50 posts to your credit. You are dingenabled

420 barflytom  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:16:50pm

re: #400 zuckerlilly

No, but he is a member of the Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety

There is nothing special about his membership otherwise the EU-Parliament would abuse it's own rules. He is an elected MP.

If only that was the worst of the EU. The ludicrous new "president", Mr Van Rompuy mentioned "global governance" and "the global management of our planet" in his first speech. You can see why some people think that AGW is just an excuse for a massive expansion of government power. A pity that Vaclav Klaus didn't get the job...

[Link: tv.nationalreview.com...]

421 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:17:12pm

re: #418 DocRambo

44 comments in 3 years (just a tad over one a month)

After that one, we won;'t "see" you till 3rd week of December, huh?
Pacing yourself!?!?

422 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:17:44pm

re: #405 Spare O'Lake

That point of view is not uncommon. Unfortunately it is a very short ride from that view to the dangerous extemist pronouncements of the Eurofascists.

I'm a commoner. Besides, I really don't give a crap about Islam and its adherents one way or another anymore. They are free to live their 7th century lifestyle and I'll live mine 14 centuries down the road. One exception, when they try to force me to live like they do. When that happens, well, you know.

423 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:19:27pm

re: #317 captdiggs

Hey Captdiggs. I believe it was Pajamasmedia. Look at charles linked websites. A lot have been pared from it over the last couple years because of what he used to think were OK anti-Jihad sites but in their anti-jihad zeal went too far by entertaining white-supremecist or just plain racist posts and posters.

He's dead on correct. Although the Jihadi idiots may've brought the worst of Western society on themselves that doesn't make those low-life scum correct in any way. Nazis are still nazis.

424 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:24:28pm

re: #338 sattv4u2

No Italy.

Because if you get to close to the event horizon your ability to think objectively becomes "spaghetti-ized" due to spaghettification.

Har har.

sorry.

425 zuckerlilly  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:24:48pm

re: #407 ryannon

Given the rules of the EU Parliament, Adolf Hitler would also be an elected MP.

Fuck the EU and whores they rode in on.

Why fuck the EU? The British voted for him and two other members of the BNP.
Since every MP has to be in a committee they decided to put him into environment. And there are a lot of other MP's who can and will take care of him. I e.g. know Jo Leinen and he is an as well experienced politician as one from the left wing of the social democrats.

The Guardian news were "non-news".

426 Right Brain  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:38:39pm

"CRU scientists began to believe it was better for them to withhold the data, to make it harder for the deniers to attack."

The data they are withholding is the temperature outside, not the diagrams for a suitcase nuclear bomb, the temperature, as in how cold is it.

The notion that anyone with an excel sheet can chart this data and see the lack of warming sends these argument-from-authority paleoclimatologists into conniptions. Most of these scientists are working on public grants, and in America and Britain anyone working on a public grant must make their data available to all. The fact that they have not is prima facia evidence of falsification.

One can pretend that this is a non-story, but its a non-story on 11M web sites.

And quit writing that the data was hacked or stolen, we know by now it was assembled in a public file waiting for release pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request, the sole reason no non-climate related email was mixed in.

427 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:42:53pm

re: #426 Right Brain

And quit writing that the data was hacked or stolen, we know by now it was assembled in a public file waiting for release pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request, the sole reason no non-climate related email was mixed in.

No, I'm not going to "quit writing" that the data was stolen. It was stolen.

There's a reason why people like you are trying to pretend it wasn't -- to soothe your consciences.

428 ghazidor  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:44:57pm

OT: The utterly annoying glory of Techno Chicken

429 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:45:03pm

re: #426 Right Brain

The data was stolen, chief. Deal with it.

430 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:46:56pm

re: #426 Right Brain

"CRU scientists began to believe it was better for them to withhold the data, to make it harder for the deniers to attack."

The data they are withholding is the temperature outside, not the diagrams for a suitcase nuclear bomb, the temperature, as in how cold is it.

The notion that anyone with an excel sheet can chart this data and see the lack of warming sends these argument-from-authority paleoclimatologists into conniptions. Most of these scientists are working on public grants, and in America and Britain anyone working on a public grant must make their data available to all. The fact that they have not is prima facia evidence of falsification.

One can pretend that this is a non-story, but its a non-story on 11M web sites.

And quit writing that the data was hacked or stolen, we know by now it was assembled in a public file waiting for release pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request, the sole reason no non-climate related email was mixed in.

Some light reading for you, provided in the hopes that you will see how wrong you are:

NZ Climate 'Science' Coalition Lies About Temperature Readings

431 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:56:23pm

re: #396 Yanqui in Europe

If you want explanations as to why I down-dinged other things you said, go ahead and ask. I'll tell you.

I couldn't care less. Just tried to coax you out into the open.

And now I'm for bed. Any "debate" - to the extent that such is possible - can wait for the next AGW thread.

432 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:58:09pm

re: #427 Charles

No, I'm not going to "quit writing" that the data was stolen. It was stolen.

There's a reason why people like you are trying to pretend it wasn't -- to soothe your consciences.

I fail to see why anyone who didn't actually participate in stealing the data would need to soothe his conscience.

The data is out there now and a part of the debate. I need no excuse to reference it.

433 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:59:57pm

re: #431 Cato the Elder

I couldn't care less. Just tried to coax you out into the open.

And now I'm for bed. Any "debate" - to the extent that such is possible - can wait for the next AGW thread.

Totally - Yanqui likes to lurk and down-ding but doesn't want to actually participate.

434 DocRambo  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:26pm

re: #421 sattv4u2

Wow, 25,202 comments in just under three years. I am impressed. I have been somewhat inactive since coming out of the coma, but my therapist says typing is good for my manual dexterity, so I am trying it. Please excuse any typos. Am back to classes in a wheelchair, and have three graduate assistants to help. Really gratifying to see the level of sophistication in these posts, but I miss the humor of the old days. Also miss the manners, but I suppose many of us have gotten crotchety as we've gotten older.

435 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:02:43pm

re: #434 DocRambo

Wow, 25,202 comments in just under three years. I am impressed. I have been somewhat inactive since coming out of the coma, but my therapist says typing is good for my manual dexterity, so I am trying it. Please excuse any typos. Am back to classes in a wheelchair, and have three graduate assistants to help. Really gratifying to see the level of sophistication in these posts, but I miss the humor of the old days. Also miss the manners, but I suppose many of us have gotten crotchety as we've gotten older.

"Manners?" LOL. We must be reading different blogs. The manners here now are ten times better than they were back in the Reaganite/Bigel days.

436 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:04:46pm

re: #426 Right Brain

Most of these scientists are working on public grants, and in America and Britain anyone working on a public grant must make their data available to all. The fact that they have not is prima facia evidence of falsification.

I don't think you understand prima facie. Maybe you meant res ipsa loquitur, but even that is not accurate here. You are extrapolating meaning without a causal link. Prima facie (note the spelling too) evidence would be more like finding the "real" data and comparing to theirs to show the falsehood. Whatever though, try to use big words to make yourself sound more serious if you like.

One can pretend that this is a non-story, but its a non-story on 11M web sites.

I think there are about 11M web sites with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion but that don't make them real either. How about Obama's fake Kenyan birth certificate. Just because something is spread on the web doesn't make it true.

437 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:05:21pm

re: #434 DocRambo

Wow, 25,202 comments in just under three years. I am impressed. I have been somewhat inactive since coming out of the coma, but my therapist says typing is good for my manual dexterity, so I am trying it. Please excuse any typos. Am back to classes in a wheelchair, and have three graduate assistants to help. Really gratifying to see the level of sophistication in these posts, but I miss the humor of the old days. Also miss the manners, but I suppose many of us have gotten crotchety as we've gotten older.

Me, I've been on a deserted island for a decade with only monkeys and coconuts for company just prior to posting 25K comments in three years, just trying to catch up pn missed time.
As for the "manners", perhaps if you had come in and not shit on the hosts floor and wiped your ass on the drapes (in your snarky 418) you owuld have been greeted by THIS old crumudgeon with more grace!

438 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:06:12pm

It may be that people who would steal email for political purposes would not scruple to alter it as well. This is a reason to be cautious about making judgments based on stolen information.

439 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:08:48pm

re: #436 Cineaste

Thank you. People who cite Latin forensic terms - or any Latin terms at all - without knowing an ablative from a latus clavus usually can't reason their way out of a cul-de-sac.

440 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:10:29pm

re: #439 Cato the Elder

Thank you. People who cite Latin forensic terms - or any Latin terms at all - without knowing an ablative from a latus clavus usually can't reason their way out of a cul-de-sac.

touché

oh wait... that's french.

441 wheathead  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:06:30pm

charles, in your start of this subject you stated, "why the scientists at CRU were resistant to sharing data with people like Steven McIntyre, whose only reason for demanding access to the data is to cherry-pick through it for new out-of-context denialist talking points." from what I have read so far it appears the CRU scientist's et al, (Mann) "cherry picked" the data to support their conclusions.

442 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:46:36pm
443 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:48:35pm

re: #442 dbledsoe

It's a really bad idea to dare me to ban you, after posting a comment full of insults. Piss off.

444 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:49:11pm

Flounce away Senior Flounce-a-lot.

445 KronoGhazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:53:47pm

This all looks like another iteration of 'just release the documents' from the birthers. It's all fallacy of 'patina of objectivity.'

446 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:27:31pm

re: #74 goddamnedfrank

Totally agree, NASA GISTEMP is completely auditable, open source and verifiable. As part of converting CRU to an open source shop to placate the deniers, it needs to be pointed out that concurrent, untainted datasets exist that support identical conclusions.

Go visit [Link: chiefio.wordpress.com...] . It's not light reading, but EM Smith is punching holes in GIStemp methodology big enough to drive a truck through.

447 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:32:36pm

re: #446 nmdesertrat

Go visit [Link: chiefio.wordpress.com...] . It's not light reading, but EM Smith is punching holes in GIStemp methodology big enough to drive a truck through.

Sigh. The overblown claims never stop.

448 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:32:44pm
449 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:34:46pm

re: #448 wkeller

And another asshole who thinks the way to debate global warming is to spew insults. Get lost.

450 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:35:02pm
451 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:36:24pm

It's a deluge tonight.

452 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:46:51pm

re: #447 Charles

Sigh. The overblown claims never stop.

Charles, you're a coder. Go punch holes in his analyses. Don't just dismiss him out of hand. That's no different than a knee-jerk denial.

453 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:51:33pm

re: #452 nmdesertrat

Charles, you're a coder. Go punch holes in his analyses. Don't just dismiss him out of hand. That's no different than a knee-jerk denial.

The code in the stolen CRU data was cherry-picked. I have no idea why this is so hard for people to understand, but I suspect it's because they don't care.

I HAVE looked at the code, and the idea that someone can take these OUT OF DATE, years-old, partial fragments of code and draw conclusions from them is completely ludicrous.

As for the Chiefio blog, I'm sorry, but the agenda of that guy is just reeking off the page at me. He set out with a goal in mind and SURPRISE! he manages to post a blizzard of BS that confirms his goal. This isn't analysis -- it's hooey.

454 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:03:45pm

And by the way, if you read the comments to EM Smith's ridiculous post about GISTemp, you'll see that he's pretty well destroyed by several commenters, who point out the serious flaws in his "methodology" and assumptions.

That blog post is nonsense.

455 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:43:52pm

I wasn't referring to the CRU code. I was referring to how the GHCN data is used, especially with the way existing station temperature histories are extended back in time by the use of reference stations. Ex: the temperature record at Pisa, Italy uses reference stations that are mountainous and inland ( [Link: chiefio.wordpress.com...] )

So his blog reeks to you. All the better for a skeptic to question his methods/motives. Just like bloggers that say that AGW is "settled science" and we should all just accept the answer and go away cause my Wizard-of-Oz BS-meter to jump.

456 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:07:54pm

re: #454 Charles

And by the way, if you read the comments to EM Smith's ridiculous post about GISTemp, you'll see that he's pretty well destroyed by several commenters, who point out the serious flaws in his "methodology" and assumptions.

That blog post is nonsense.

I just reread the comments on the main GIStemp portion of his blog, and I see two people who question his statements about "false accuracy". The problem is, he's right. You cannot create tenth or hundreth of a degree data from integer values, except by stating a trend over a long time period AND including an error range.

I haven't read everything on his site, but of what I've read, the only thing that I'm unsure about is that he says an analog device (ie thermometer) can only be read to the nearest graduation. Ex: a thermometer marked in whole degrees can only be read to the nearest degree, when I was taught that it could be read to the nearest one-half degree (half a graduation).

457 fire at night  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:45:16am

You would think AGW deniers would give up their game as they see, but they have too much invested (funds or lobbying) into it to do so.

I wish many of the @sshats of the Hill actually knew what the hell they were voting for, and in turn understood the scope in order for them to propose a reform that actually had meaning. Cap and trade obviously isn't going to be the answer, as lucrative as the money making opportunities may be for the parties involved in such endeavors.

My question is, for true environmental reform to happen, what steps must gov't take or spearhead for it to truly happen? I'm asking for honest ideas if any fellow lizards happen to have them. I'm familiarizing myself with the basics for right now from a previous link to this here on LGF. What steps or measures may be taken with all the numerous datums collected?

/No, I'm not a hippy. I am just trying to find the avenues that various goverments may pursue to make progress on the matter.
//Thank you in advance for any offering to the curious.

458 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:20:28am
459 StillAMarine  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:54:16am

re: #308 pyrodoctor

I had to log on just to upding you, PyroDoctor. Your point that 90% of what needs to be done to reduce global warming should be done anyway is well taken. Reducing greenhouse gasses would also reduce our waste of natural resources, decrease air and water pollution and preserve our nonrenewable energy resources for more urgent uses than driving around in oversized motor vehicles.

460 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:23:25am

re: #458 alethalpunk

Piss off, wanker.

461 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:03:25am
462 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:14:34am

Go away, moron.

463 b_snark  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:47:46am

re: #144 Fenway_Nation

By most definitions- including his own- it's not very 'green'...and you're saying that's irrelevant?

And you are saying that because Gore isn't as green as you think he should be the science is false?

464 b_snark  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:55:06am

re: #154 Cato the Elder

Here's a quote from one Peter Watts, about whose stance on AGW I know absolutely nothing, that I think is worth reading.

On scientific "objectivity":

This isn't news to anyone in contact with science on a regular basis. Science is adversarial, which is why the idea of a conspiracy, or even just a love fest in search of fortune, is hilarious.

465 citybilly  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:55:40am

U-turn on climate change 'cover up' as university says it will publish leaked email data [Link: bit.ly...]

466 b_snark  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:05:27am

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Yes. Does that mean they were wrong about Stalin and Mao?

Does their accuracy about Stalin and Mao guarantee their accuracy about everything else?

If you cast your net wide and far enough you are bound to catch the correct fish, along with an even greater number of sea cumbers. Don't equate their catch of the nature of S&M with competence.

467 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:53:27am

FYI, Dr. Hansen reads his emails on Sundays:

Their data is used by NOAA in calibrating their satellite measurements of ocean SST, and their data is used by a different NOAA group in calculating ocean heat content. We use the NOAA data sets as input to our global temperature analysis.
Jim Hansen
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:42 PM, wrote:
Dr. Hansen:
Has anyone looked at using the data provided by US Navy and USCG ships in regards to weather observations and ocean temperature? Navy frigates, destroyers and cruisers drop XBTs (expendable bathythermograph) on a regular basis, and provide that info to the Navy Fleet Numerical Oceanography Center (FNOC).
In addition, the National Oceanographic Data Center (NODC) compiles data from XBTs, NOAA ships and Argo floats.
This may provide additional data in oceanic areas, particularly where land-based stations are sparse.

468 cgrow  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:17:55pm

re: # 457 fire at night

I've got one! Telecommuting. Everyone who does administrative work should work from home. It is free to do, can be done right now, reduces traffic, reduces the energy used to power/heat/cool office buildings, reduces wasted time spent traveling to and from work, and can help parents save money on daycare!

469 JamesS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:21:55pm

I can *understand* the CRU guys not wanting to share data with people who disagree with them - just as I can understand a DA not wanting to share exculpatory evidence with the defense in case it undermines their case - but in both cases, there are rules they have to obey whether they like it or not, and in both cases, their job should be to make the case solid enough to stand up to all scrutiny, "cherry-picked" or not. Even without legal requirements, that's how proper science is supposed to work; Hansen seems to manage it with his GISS work, so why can't the CRU guys? Maybe it's cultural: I know FOIA is much newer in the UK, so it's not built into people's training in the same way.

I've always preferred the US approach, that government funded research is public domain (except for national security, which obviously doesn't apply here); I would love to see a clause to that effect inserted in all the UK's publicly-funded research grants as well. When information is paid for by the public, it should then belong to the public domain, not become the property of any particular department or agency. If all the data had to be put on CRU's website for everyone to see - no FOIA requests, no filtering or quibbling, they have to put it there as part of their research grant procedures - things would be much cleaner, in several ways.

The "scandal" here should be that a government-funded researcher appears to have been blatantly flouting the FOIA, deleting information rather than have it fall into "enemy" hands. Whatever his field, whatever the quality of research, breaking the law like that MUST have consequences.

As for Copenhagen, rather than coming up with the usual meaningless "targets" which all the signatories would either meet anyway (like Germany and the UK with Kyoto), ignore completely without any consequences (like much of Europe) or not actually have a target in the first place, like China and India; instead, I would like to see all the signatories commit to doing everything they can to replace fossil fuel with nuclear for power generation, gas and oil with electricity for heating and biofuels for transport.

No new gas/coal/oil power plants or oil/gas central heating, with a permanent tax exemption for nuclear power and biodiesel (much like the Chicago Convention, decades ago, exempting aviation fuel in order to boost the new aviation industry): far more reduction in CO2 emissions, with far lower cost and less impact on our lifestyles. Far too simple and effective for politicians to back, of course :(

470 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:38:03pm

re: #469 JamesS

I can *understand* the CRU guys not wanting to share data with people who disagree with them...

No, not just people who "disagree" with them -- people who have been proven to use dishonest cherry-picking tactics to spread disinformation.

The "scandal" here should be that a government-funded researcher appears to have been blatantly flouting the FOIA, deleting information rather than have it fall into "enemy" hands. Whatever his field, whatever the quality of research, breaking the law like that MUST have consequences.

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Phil Jones did NOT destroy any data. In one email he said he would delete files rather than turn them over to the denialists, but he was just mouthing off. It did not actually happen.

471 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:32:10pm
472 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:55:46pm

re: #471 mxer208

Way to show'em by dumping a turd in the punch whilst you thought no one was looking.
/coward

473 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 3:14:16pm

re: #471 mxer208

Bye now!


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