Did Climate Scientists Destroy Data? A: No.

Environment • Views: 16,115

The latest recycled claim from the climate denialists: Climate change data dumped.

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years. The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

The admission follows the leaking of a thousand private emails sent and received by Professor Phil Jones, the CRU’s director. In them he discusses thwarting climate sceptics seeking access to such data.

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

Just one little problem with this latest tempest in a teapot — no data was destroyed. And the article at The Times, oddly enough, just happens to leave out that part of Phil Jones’ explanation.

According to CRU’s Web site, “Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit, said that the vast majority of the station data was not altered at all, and the small amount that was changed was adjusted for consistency.

The research unit has deleted less than 5 percent of its original station data from its database because the stations had several discontinuities or were affected by urbanization trends, Jones said.

“When you’re looking at climate data, you don’t want stations that are showing urban warming trends,” Jones said, “so we’ve taken them out.” Most of the stations for which data was removed are located in areas where there were already dense monitoring networks, he added. “We rarely removed a station in a data-sparse region of the world.”

Refuting CEI’s claims of data-destruction, Jones said, “We haven’t destroyed anything. The data is still there — you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center.

By the way, here’s some information on the group spreading the “destroyed data” claim: Competitive Enterprise Institute.

CEI is a think tank funded by donations from individuals, foundations and corporations. CEI does not accept government funding. Past and present funders include the Scaife Foundations, Exxon Mobil, the Ford Motor Company Fund, Pfizer, and the Earhart Foundation[5][6]. …

CEI is also active in the legal aspects of antitrust and government regulation. As part of its “Control Abuse of Power” (CAP) project, CEI launched lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of the 1998 tobacco Master Settlement Agreement and the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (PCAOB), respectively.

Again, the connection to energy industries and big tobacco. Almost every one of the main anti-AGW front groups is connected to either big energy or big tobacco, and often both.

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309 comments
1 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:04:22am

Why tobacco?

2 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:05:57am

re: #1 Gang of One

Expertise in denial, and the marketing of lies.

3 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:08:22am

Hey I watched Star Trek. Data was destroyed several times and he came back.

4 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:11:20am

This is so similar to nirtherism. You show them the data and they say "but where is the real data. If only you'd share the real data we'd stop asking questions."

5 winemaker  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:15:48am

David Holland, a UK engineer who has been at the forefront of bringign to light the Freedom of Information" problems with the climatoligists at East Anglia:

"Thanks to these leaked emails a lot of little people can begin to make some impact on this monolithic entity that is the climate change lobby.

"These guys called climate scientists have not done any more physics or chemistry than I did. A lifetime in engineering gives you a very good antenna. It also cures people of any self belief they cannot be wrong. You clear up a lot of messes during a lifetime in engineering. I could be wrong on global warming – I know that – but the guys on the other side don't believe they can ever be wrong."

___
Hmmm. A belief that your side cannot be proven wrong with science. Sound familiar? Organized fundamentalist religions; Leftists and collectivists; and perhaps, global warmers!

6 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:44am
By the way, here’s some information on the group spreading the “destroyed data” claim: Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Other groups associated with the Competitive Enterprise Institute:

Cooler Heads Coalition

The Cooler Heads Coalition was originally a project of the National Consumer Coalition, a project of the nonprofit organization Consumer Alert. The Cooler Heads Coalition is now financed and operated by the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Its objective is described as "dispelling the myths of global warming by exposing flawed economic, scientific, and risk analysis". In 2004, its stated position was that "the science of global warming is uncertain, but the negative impacts of global warming policies on consumers are all too real."

The Coalition has been criticized for ties to energy industries that would be affected if the United States enacted any legislation targeted at reducing CO2 emissions. The Coalition has been widely accused of astroturfing. For example, writing in October 2004 for The American Prospect, Nicholas Confessore described the Coalition as "an Astroturf group funded by industries opposed to regulation of CO2 emissions."

National Consumer Coalition

The Center for Science and the Public Interest reports that Consumer Alert's funding has come from Chevron, Eli Lilly and Philip Morris, Amoco, American Cyanamid, Exxon, Elanco, Pfizer, Anheuser, Busch, and Coors. In the past, corporations have provided more than 60% of the group's funding.

7 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:31am

re: #5 winemaker

Projection be thy name.

8 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:33am

re: #3 Racer X

Hey I watched Star Trek. Data was destroyed several times and he came back.

And so did his evil twin brother. The one who could speak in contractions.

9 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:27:39am

re: #5 winemaker

David Holland, a UK engineer who has been at the forefront of bringign to light the Freedom of Information" problems with the climatoligists at East Anglia:

SNIP

"These guys called climate scientists have not done any more physics or chemistry than I did. A lifetime in engineering gives you a very good antenna. It also cures people of any self belief they cannot be wrong. You clear up a lot of messes during a lifetime in engineering. I could be wrong on global warming – I know that – but the guys on the other side don't believe they can ever be wrong."

That's funny. Here's Phil Jones' CV:

I am the Director of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) and a Professor in the School of Environmental Sciences at the University of East Anglia in Norwich. I was born in Surrey in 1952 and completed a B.A. in Environmental Sciences at the University of Lancaster in 1973 and an M.Sc. (1974) and Ph.D. (1977) at the Department of Civil Engineering at the University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. My Ph.D. was titled "A spatially distributed catchment model for flood forecasting and river regulation with particular reference to the River Tyne."

But I'm sure that PHD was largely fake...///

10 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:31:36am

White House Correspondance -FOI

LIEBERMAN SEEKS WHITE HOUSE CONTACTS REGARDING GLOBAL WARMING LAWSUIT

WASHINGTON - Governmental Affairs Committee Ranking Member Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., sought clarification Wednesday as to whether the White House played a role in a lawsuit challenging an Administration report on global warming that exposes the flaws in President Bush's environmental policy.

In a letter to White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, dated September 24, 2003, Lieberman asked Card 'to clear the record once and for all by publicly disclosing all the White House contacts" in the last two years with The Competitive Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank, regarding global warming. At issue are communications between Philip Cooney, Chief of Staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, and Myron Ebell, Director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute's Global Warming and Environmental Policy, as evidenced by a June 2003.

"The mess" refers to the submission of the global warming report in May 2002 by the State Department to the United Nations, which embarrassed the Administration because it found that increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are responsible for the warming of the earth. The Bush Administration, by contrast, has supported the unfettered use and production of fossil fuels regardless of environmental ramifications.

On August 6, 2003, CEI filed a lawsuit against the Administration, asking for the invalidation of a Clinton-era report on global warming, a decade in the making, and which provided the basis for the May 2002 Bush Administration report.

SNIP

Mr. Andrew H. Card, Jr.
Chief of Staff to the President
Executive Office of the President

11 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:34:01am
12 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:34:14am

re: #6 Gus 802


Any connection the the AEI?

13 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:35:04am

re: #12 dugmartsch

Any connection the the AEI?

I would have to search.

14 exelwood  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:35:16am

I think it's great the global warming community is releasing all the data and modeling information for scrutiny, that should resolve the issue. I remember when the genome project did a data dump every day so the whole world could access it. They probably should have done this ten years ago, transparency is a good thing!

15 KronoGhazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:37:57am

Why is big tobacco involved in the CEI?

16 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:38:54am

FOIA - CEI - Bush White House Correspondence on Global Warming

RECORD TYPE: EEDEHAL (NOTES MAIL)
CREATOR:Robert C. McNally ( CN=-Robert C. McNally/OtkOPD/0202P ( OWD
CREATION DATE/TIME: 5.-JUN-2002 11:05:57.00
SUBJECT:: Ret Fw: CEI press release: EPA Climate Report Violates White House Agreement
TO: Phil Cooney

SNIP

A lot blacked out text.

17 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:39:48am

re: #4 Cineaste

This is so similar to nirtherism. You show them the data and they say "but where is the real data. If only you'd share the real data we'd stop asking questions."

Also similar to 9/11 Truthers.

20 Izzy Dunne  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:42:06am

This blog is getting more and more unreadable with all the pollution from these useless advertisers:
Who thinks this is a good idea?

I mean, it's hard to read a simple sentence with all the color changes.

21 E.T.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:16am
22 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:44:31am

re: #20 Izzy Dunne

All those advertisers bring in da cash.

23 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:45:09am

Now I do notice that Jones' denial of data destruction is dated October 2009 while the Times says quite clearly that an "admission" was made subsequent to the leaked Emails.

The admission follows the leaking of a thousand private emails sent and received by Professor Phil Jones, the CRU’s director. In them he discusses thwarting climate sceptics seeking access to such data.

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

There's a serious discrepancy there between the two stories.

24 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:45:34am

re: #9 Cineaste

But I'm sure that PHD was largely fake...///

David Holland's point was not that the PhD was unearned, but that a lifetime in academia can lead to an ivory tower mentality.

There are also some people who honestly believe that
BS = Bull Sh*t
MS = More Sh*t
and PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper.

Conversely, I've met plenty of engineers who designed things that were an absolute bitch to build on the production floor and even worse to repair.

25 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:45:59am

Here they come.

26 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:48:21am

re: #25 Gus 802

Here they come.

They must have secret decoder rings or some such.
/

27 KronoGhazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:53:17am

The de-legitimization of Phil Jones as an evil liar is on.

Of course, he's never actually been caught, but no matter...

28 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:54:57am

re: #20 Izzy Dunne

It's easy enough not to mouse over them. Besides, what's more unreadable is people whining about LGF.

29 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:56:23am

Oh no! Who will save us from the evil corporations!?

30 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:02:02pm

The biggest issues I have with this whole deal are these:

1. Nuclear power doesn't produce greenhouse gas. Yet the "green people" seem unwilling to promote safe nuclear power as a major part of the solution to this "urgent" crisis. I know there are other energy ideas (wain, solar, etc) that are considered better alternatives to nukes, but id the crisis is as urgent as the AGW crowd says, we should not waste a minute getting nuke power plants licensed and biult. I'd be much more willing to embrace the side of the AGW crowd if they explained this disconnect.

2. Some of the worst polluters are developing nations like India and China, yet they appear to be largely exempt from the draconian measures being suggested for the USA. There are more than 2.2 billion people in just those two nations as opposed to just over 300 million in the USA. I see little chance of us solving the problems as long as huge nations like China and India are not on board with curbing their own excesses.

31 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:02:31pm

Oh...and Charles:

It's always more attractive to believe the side that tells you there's no problem, everything's fine, no need to worry or make any sacrifices, just roll over and go back to sleep.

I'm wondering- what sacrifices do you reccommend the [bare minimum] 10.2% of people without jobs in this country make?

32 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:55pm

re: #30 _RememberTonyC

Not just Nukes, _TonyC...remember that the Nantucket chattering classes didn't even want windmills built offshore.

33 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:57pm

re: #30 _RememberTonyC

I know there are other energy ideas (wain, solar, etc)

PIMF ... that should have said "wind," not "wain."

34 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #32 Fenway_Nation

Not just Nukes, _TonyC...remember that the Nantucket chattering classes didn't even want windmills built offshore.

that's right, Fenway_Nation. I recall the Kennedys being quite irate about their views being obstructed.

35 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:10:48pm

re: #34 _RememberTonyC

Similar arguments out west, but since the people arguing against it don't have 'Kennedy' as their last name, the wind turbines go up anyways.

I'd be more concerned about birds flying into the blades, personally. I think some buildings out in California have some sort device that emits a high-frequency sound that prevents swallows from nesting on the building- Might be worth looking at putting something like that on windmills to keep them away (altho who's to say it would work for all species of birds?).

BTW...Are you ready for some Monday Night Football?

36 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:12:16pm

re: #31 Fenway_Nation

Oh...and Charles:

I'm wondering- what sacrifices do you reccommend the [bare minimum] 10.2% of people without jobs in this country make?

I'm not recommending any sacrifices. That's not my area of expertise. I've explained SEVERAL times now that my main interest in this is not to recommend policy, but to present as much factual information on global warming as possible. With the current climate of denial, this seems like the most important first job.

37 soxfanscott  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:00pm

re: #34 _RememberTonyC


And now Deval Patricks puppet is bucking him. Kirk is Teddy's boy, keeping those evil windmachines out of Nantucket Sound. Set's up for an interesting little scrum. Obama, Kerry, and Kirk all vacation on the Cape or Islands. Deval has his vacation manse in the Berkshires. Who wins this NIMBY battle?

[Link: www.boston.com...]

38 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:44pm

re: #35 Fenway_Nation

Similar arguments out west, but since the people arguing against it don't have 'Kennedy' as their last name, the wind turbines go up anyways.

I'd be more concerned about birds flying into the blades, personally. I think some buildings out in California have some sort device that emits a high-frequency sound that prevents swallows from nesting on the building- Might be worth looking at putting something like that on windmills to keep them away (altho who's to say it would work for all species of birds?).

BTW...Are you ready for some Monday Night Football?


Oh man ... my wife is going out of town tomorrow until Wednesday, so Monday Night Football will be an uninterrupted joy. My youngest son and me will be parked in front of the TV eating Chinese food and taking it in. If NE can beat NO, it will tell me that they're the favorites to win it all. Indy has its hands full today with HOU.

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:16:19pm

re: #23 captdiggs

Now I do notice that Jones' denial of data destruction is dated October 2009 while the Times says quite clearly that an "admission" was made subsequent to the leaked Emails.

There's a serious discrepancy there between the two stories.

Did you notice that the same quote from the CRU site is in BOTH articles?

Good grief.

40 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:17:43pm

re: #37 soxfanscott

And now Deval Patricks puppet is bucking him. Kirk is Teddy's boy, keeping those evil windmachines out of Nantucket Sound. Set's up for an interesting little scrum. Obama, Kerry, and Kirk all vacation on the Cape or Islands. Deval has his vacation manse in the Berkshires. Who wins this NIMBY battle?

[Link: www.boston.com...]


I don't know who wins the NIMBY battle, but my money is NOT on Gov Patrick. I grew up in Massachusetts (Brockton), but find the smugness of many Mass residents to be annoying. Some of the worst racists I have met in my life are good "liberals" from the Boston area.

41 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:19:15pm

re: #36 Charles

It's kind of galling to have someone who's been bouncing from temp job to temp job and only sparodically collecting unemployment since they've been laid off be told, however tongue-in-cheek, that there's 'no need to worry or make sacrifices, just roll over and go back to sleep'

42 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:21:32pm

re: #40 _RememberTonyC

I don't know who wins the NIMBY battle, but my money is NOT on Gov Patrick. I grew up in Massachusetts (Brockton), but find the smugness of many Mass residents to be annoying. Some of the worst racists I have met in my life are good "liberals" from the Boston area.

Most of the segregated schools in Dixie were integrated before the ones in Boston were.

43 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:11pm

re: #41 Fenway_Nation

Fenway, I'm not following you here. There are a great many reasons to wonder about the economic health of this country, but that doesn't seem to me to be a reason to fight over what is "true" when it comes to knowledge, which is what is happening in this instantiation of the culture war.

44 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #42 Fenway_Nation

Most of the segregated schools in Dixie were integrated before the ones in Boston were.

Wasn't the Red Sox the last baseball team to hire a Black player?

45 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:25:51pm

re: #44 HoosierHoops

Wasn't the Red Sox the last baseball team to hire a Black player?


yes ... Pumpsie Green in 1959, a full 12 years after Jackie Robinson integrated baseball. and while Red Auerbach was exactly the opposite when it came to integration, the fans of Boston never really embraced Bill Russell and the Celtics, despite 11 titles in 13 years. The Bruins (NHL) always outdrew the C's in the 1960's even though the Bruins sucked until 1968.

46 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:26:40pm

re: #42 Fenway_Nation

Most of the segregated schools in Dixie were integrated before the ones in Boston were.

I have seen far better racial relations in the south than I ever did in Boston.

47 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:27:06pm

re: #44 HoosierHoops

Wasn't the Red Sox the last baseball team to hire a Black player?

Last one in the American League.

On the flip side, the Boston Bruins fielded the first black NHL player- Willie O'Ree- months before Pumpsie Green took to the field.

/had the privelege of meeting Mr. O'Ree last year- even have a few autographed Bruins pucks as a souvenier of the encounter.

48 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #47 Fenway_Nation

Last one in the American League.

On the flip side, the Boston Bruins fielded the first black NHL player- Willie O'Ree- months before Pumpsie Green took to the field.

/had the privelege of meeting Mr. O'Ree last year- even have a few autographed Bruins pucks as a souvenier of the encounter.


Red Auerbach was the first NBA coach to put 5 Black men on the court together (I think around '63 or '64). He was the first NBA GM to hire a Black man as head coach, naming Bill Russell as player-coach in 1966. Russell won 2 NBA titles as player-coach (1968 and 1969). Russell always was pissed that the Celtics drew so few fans and felt (I believe correctly) that the fans of Boston would rather root for shitty teams that were mostly white (Red Sox & Bruins) than a dominant team headlined by Black players (the Celtics).

49 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:35:17pm

re: #43 freetoken

You don't think that the 'solutions' to all this will involve a massive money and/or power grab? While simultaneously decimating the utilities, transportation and agriculture?

Because that's what Cap and Trade looks like to me.

And I have even less faith in the UN's ability to deal with this problem.

50 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:35:43pm

The CRU seemingly admits they don't have (some of) the raw data:

According to CRU’s Web site, “Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

"Data storage availabilty?" Couldn't they have printed out the data? Seems pretty sloppy to me.

51 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:35:55pm

re: #3 Racer X

Hey I watched Star Trek. Data was destroyed several times and he came back.

False. He was blown up in Nemesis.

Unless you're like me, and refuse to accept that Nemesis and the Enterprise show really happened.

Just call me a denier!

52 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:37:40pm

re: #51 Athens Runaway

False. He was blown up in Nemesis.

Unless you're like me, and refuse to accept that Nemesis and the Enterprise show really happened.

Just call me a denier!

Raises hand enthusiastically.
/Don't get me started, you'd see a geek meltdown of epic proportions. XD

53 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #48 _RememberTonyC

I think that Mr O'Ree's arrival in Boston was simply a reflection of the demographics in Canada (where most of the NHL players came from back then), not a concious attempt to keep black players out of the NHL.

54 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:38:07pm

re: #50 lightspeed

The CRU seemingly admits they don't have (some of) the raw data:

According to CRU’s Web site, “Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

"Data storage availabilty?" Couldn't they have printed out the data? Seems pretty sloppy to me.

Quote:

Refuting CEI’s claims of data-destruction, Jones said, “We haven’t destroyed anything. The data is still there — you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center.”

The data is not destroyed and it's not missing.

55 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:41:14pm

re: #54 Charles

Seems contradictory.

"We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

"The data is still there — you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center.”

What data is still there? The raw data? The value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data?

56 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:41:28pm

re: #52 Varek Raith

Perhaps the CRU should check to see if Darwinist aliens from the Evil Space Cloud of Death took their Space Lazer!!!1!! and carved out a trench from Florida to Brazil.

And just think of all the CO2 the Space Lazer released!

Brannon Braga is the Robert Stacy McCain of scriptwriting.

/too harsh?

57 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:41:42pm

re: #48 _RememberTonyC

Red Auerbach was the first NBA coach to put 5 Black men on the court together (I think around '63 or '64). He was the first NBA GM to hire a Black man as head coach, naming Bill Russell as player-coach in 1966. Russell won 2 NBA titles as player-coach (1968 and 1969). Russell always was pissed that the Celtics drew so few fans and felt (I believe correctly) that the fans of Boston would rather root for shitty teams that were mostly white (Red Sox & Bruins) than a dominant team headlined by Black players (the Celtics).

I met Jesse Owens, listened to him give a talk and got his autograph when I was a kid...
One of the most inspiring people I have ever met in my life...

58 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:42:23pm

re: #56 Athens Runaway

Perhaps the CRU should check to see if Darwinist aliens from the Evil Space Cloud of Death took their Space Lazer!!!1!! and carved out a trench from Florida to Brazil.

And just think of all the CO2 the Space Lazer released!

Brannon Braga is the Robert Stacy McCain of scriptwriting.

/too harsh?

Lol, not harsh enough, to be honest! :D

59 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:43:26pm

BNP boss to attend Copenhagen summit
By Europe correspondent Emma Alberici
Posted 38 minutes ago

Self-proclaimed climate change sceptic and leader of the British National Party, Nick Griffin, is to represent the European Union at the United Nations conference in Copenhagen.

In a speech in the parliament last week, the BNP leader denounced those who warn of the effects of climate change as "cranks".

He said such people had arrived at their conclusions not on scientific agreement but on bullying, censorship and fraudulent statistics.

Politicians and scientists have reacted furiously to news that the far-right politician and climate change denier will attend the climate conference, which begins next week.

Mr Griffin was elected to the European Parliament in June. He has confirmed that he will travel to Copenhagen as a member of the EU's environmental committee.

60 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:44:16pm

re: #53 Fenway_Nation

I think that Mr O'Ree's arrival in Boston was simply a reflection of the demographics in Canada (where most of the NHL players came from back then), not a concious attempt to keep black players out of the NHL.

i wasn't suggesting that at all. Black NHL players are still a rarity. You are quite right in your point.

61 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:45:36pm

re: #57 HoosierHoops

I met Jesse Owens, listened to him give a talk and got his autograph when I was a kid...
One of the most inspiring people I have ever met in my life...


How cool. He and Joe Louis did as much to battle hitler as any Americans of that era!

62 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:45:49pm

re: #55 lightspeed

Seems contradictory.

"We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

"The data is still there — you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center.”

What data is still there? The raw data? The value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data?

There's really nothing confusing about this. The CRU retained their processed data, and the NOAA has the raw data. What's unclear about that?

63 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:46:51pm

by the way, Hoosier ... how 'bout them Colts? 20 straight regular season wins? that is sick

64 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:47:07pm

The worst scientific scandal of the decade ??? From the
usual source.
Link.

65 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:47:09pm

re: #62 Charles

Sorry. You're right. I guess reading and watching football don't mix.

66 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:00pm

re: #57 HoosierHoops

Does anybody remember that show Arli$$?

I got illegally-spliced cable in the barracks and when we had HBO, I remember an episode of the aforementioned show where one of the titular charachter's clients was a black quarterback...and how other teams were reluctant to sign him [because of rumors that he was gay- which led to numerous convoluted gags].

But the whole premise of the episode seemed to be 'Isn't that just so very strange and novel? A black quarterback?'

What a short shelf-life that episiode had.

67 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:05pm

re: #63 _RememberTonyC

by the way, Hoosier ... how 'bout them Colts? 20 straight regular season wins? that is sick

I'm jacked! 2 minutes to play..We took them to school today in the 2nd half.

68 Neo_  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:35pm

Meanwhile back at the White House we find out that

Barack Obama’s climate czar Carol Browner on Wednesday rejected claims that e-mails stolen from a British university show climate scientists trumped up global warming numbers, saying she considers the science settled.

... but in one of those “shades of Haliburton” moments, we find out that she was a board member of one of the leading carbon offset trading companies, APX.

69 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:41pm

re: #60 _RememberTonyC

i wasn't suggesting that at all. Black NHL players are still a rarity. You are quite right in your point.

I know...I think Mr. O'Ree himself was trying to make that point.

70 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:49:58pm

Meanwhile, no one seems to care in the slightest that these false claims are being floated by industry front groups, who are using the same kind of "cloud of disinformation" techniques that the tobacco industry employed for decades to confuse people about the link between tobacco smoking and cancer.

71 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:50:09pm

re: #68 Neo_

Isn't the operative word here 'was' and isn't the fact that we have a White House embracing science refreshing!

72 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:51:01pm

re: #68 Neo_

Meanwhile back at the White House we find out that

... but in one of those “shades of Haliburton” moments, we find out that she was a board member of one of the leading carbon offset trading companies, APX.

And were you also highly critical of Dick Cheney for his connections to Halliburton?

73 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #70 Charles

So true - 'Climate'gate was floated as a topic of discussion at Politico's Arena this weekend. I guess they settled whether Obama was born in the US and needed to move on to weightier topics.

74 exelwood  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:55:18pm

Here's an interesting clip with all the "Climategate" players...hey, it's what's out there.

75 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:55:22pm

This is a good read, perhaps applicable to this debate:

Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feynman

76 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:56:12pm

How about NBC and their major connections to the Obama administration, as NBC shills the "green" philosophy while GE stands to make billions, that is with 'B', off of policies that they are directly advocating in both news and entertainment broadcasts? That is a reltaionship that far far FAR exceds virtually anything like Cheney's with Haliburton.

77 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:56:22pm

re: #56 Athens Runaway

Bannon's worst script, in probably all of Star Trek, was the "Threshold" episode in Voyager.
/So bad, it was unofficially struck from canon.

78 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #39 Charles

Did you notice that the same quote from the CRU site is in BOTH articles?

Yes, I certainly noticed. I also noticed this in today's Times article:

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data

Then the earlier EEnews article you posted says:

The research unit has deleted less than 5 percent of its original station data

One story or the other is not true/accurate.
All I'm pointing out is the inconsistency between the two stories.

79 exelwood  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:58:04pm

re: #74 exelwood

Here's an interesting clip with all the "Climategate" players...hey, it's what's out there.

I'm guessing there's no embeding, here's the link.

80 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:00:06pm

re: #75 lightspeed

This is a good read, perhaps applicable to this debate:

Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feynman

I have absolutely no doubt that if Richard Feynman were alive he would be on the side of the scientists trying to warn the world about global warming. Feynman was devoted to the truth, and he would never have fallen for the nonsense that's being promoted by groups like the CEI.

81 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:01:13pm

re: #78 captdiggs

One story or the other is not true/accurate.
All I'm pointing out is the inconsistency between the two stories.

You're right -- the Times story is deliberately, obviously distorted. The so-called "admission" had much more to it than they reported.

82 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:05:22pm

Worth mentioning, like so much else these days, is that foreign, particularily British and Canadian, journalists are "doing the jobs Americans refuse to do".

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

-- SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building. --
--
Sorry guys, but, even if there is merit to the warming argument, something I have always been dubious of, but not adamant one side or the other, these guys have so seriously screwed the pooch, and have acted so categorically unprofessional and political about it, that they have successfully muddied the waters big time, in a manner that might now be un-muddy-able.

It is much like, as was mentioned in 2004 with RatherGate (remember...?), some Democrats said, "Now, even IF it is totally true about Bush, the issue is now dead to us. We can't touch it, because CBS blew it so bad and rendered it unsellable as an issue".

Same thing here. Copenhagen is going to be a joke. And if there is something to global warming, the doomsayers have so inflated it, and been willing to use it in the most blatantly political and non-scientific fashion possilbe, that it is now close to being rendered dead politically.

Sorry, man, but that's the deal. An "inconvenient truth" to many, I'll grant you.

83 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:40pm

Oops, didn't mean to reproduce the article here. Redundancy alert.

84 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:50pm

re: #82 Andrew X

Maybe you should read the post at the top of this thread. Ya think?

85 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:08:29pm

re: #80 Charles

I agree, somewhat. Feynman would not have taken sides. He would have pursued the truth. Unfortunately, there is nonsense on both sides of this issue. Even Monbiot admits, "There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request."

86 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:10:11pm

re: #85 lightspeed

I agree, somewhat. Feynman would not have taken sides. He would have pursued the truth. Unfortunately, there is nonsense on both sides of this issue. Even Monbiot admits, "There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request."

Monbiot also made it very clear that NOTHING about this story changes the reality of global warming. The glaciers didn't stop melting because Phil Jones called Steve McIntyre an idiot.

87 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:10:24pm

Interagency Action on CEI Petitions on National Assessment on Climate Change

At yesterday's EPW hearing, Senator Inhofe noted his lawsuit against the Administrtion on the National Assessment (Competitive Enterprise Institute (CE!), Inhofe ce t, V. Bush (PlC DC CV 00-02383)) and asked Governor Whitmtan if EPA would cease dissemination of the Climate Action Report. She did not respond to his request directly noted that the National Assessment, did not represent a product or policy of the US government and...

Christine Todd Whitman:

Climate change

Under her direction as the first director of the EPA under the Bush administration, in 2001 the EPA produced a report detailing the expected effects of global warming in each of the states in the United States. The report was dismissed by President Bush who called it the work of "the bureaucracy."

Resignation

On June 27, 2003, after having several public conflicts with the Bush administration, Whitman resigned from her position to spend more time with her family.

88 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:11:03pm

C -

As I said, my bad. I was also posting elsewhere. Fast fingers.

89 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:12:09pm
90 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:12:13pm

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

We're having two conversations here:

A. What is the truth
B. What are we going to do with it

Because of fear of what might come out of B, you seem to be avoiding A with all of its sticky cultural/social implications.

I for one think the A discussion ought to be settled, but in this country there is a significant social backlash to the idea that humans, especially Americans, can cause harm to our surroundings simply by doing what we do. This is in a culture that seems to specialize in putting its collective head in the sand (the anti-vaxxers, creationists, and the like.) The belief-system of many appears to be that if we just ignore some observation/fact then it will just go away and not bother us anymore.

I see this as analogous to medicine, where a doctor may be wanting to discuss a diagnosis with a patient who really wants to ignore it.

In my opinion, the "B" discussion above ought to be the difficult one (including for the reason you point out), not the A discussion, but we are still stuck on A.

As Charles has pointed out, one reason for that is there is a coordinated effort by interested parties to avoid the B discussion by obfuscating the A discussion.

BTW, the US is not the only nation with this dynamic going on. The oil exporting countries (Russia, OPEC) are full of denial over AGW.

91 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:12:27pm

re: #82 Andrew X

Are you a fan of Freeman Dyson?

92 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:13:12pm

re: #41 Fenway_Nation

It's kind of galling to have someone who's been bouncing from temp job to temp job and only sparodically collecting unemployment since they've been laid off be told, however tongue-in-cheek, that there's 'no need to worry or make sacrifices, just roll over and go back to sleep'

Don't you think you should be more galled at the people Charles was mocking who actually are telling you to go back to sleep?

93 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:18:49pm

Freetoken -

BUT... if you do not acknowledge the categorical "effort by interested parties" on the pro-global warming side, you can never advance beyond that 'A'. That is largely what this story is all about. That "effort by interested parties" does not have to be all about money. There is an imperative out there that is every bit as powerful as greed, and that is the statist narrative that gives a great many people (particularily who have abandoned religious faith) a meaning and purose to their lives. And all too often that purpose is to "fix the world" at the expense of a great many others who simply do not see the world as they do.

This story is about people pushing that narrative, and running roughshod over honest and genuine (and self-critical!) science to do so. So that is a fundamental part of 'A', and as long as it is not acknowledged by the "warming" community, they will face major resistance to their plans for us all, and well they should.

94 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:20pm

re: #86 Charles

Monbiot also made it very clear that NOTHING about this story changes the reality of global warming. The glaciers didn't stop melting because Phil Jones called Steve McIntyre an idiot.

Yes. He also made it clear that "Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed." He calls for Phil Jones' resignation. This is a serious blow to their credibility and Monbiot understands that they must change the insular culture of the IPCC in order to rehabilitate their reputation.

95 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:23pm

re: #68 Neo_
Good One, Neo!

96 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:55pm

RWC - To answer your question, I recognize the name, but that is all, so I would have to go to Mr. Google. (Actually, Mr. Bing more of late...)

97 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:20:59pm

re: #94 lightspeed

Yes. He also made it clear that "Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed." He calls for Phil Jones' resignation. This is a serious blow to their credibility and Monbiot understands that they must change the insular culture of the IPCC in order to rehabilitate their reputation.

So have you always been an admirer of George Monbiot? Or is that something new, because he's agreeing with you?

98 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:21:09pm

Philip Cooney

Philip A. Cooney (born July 16, 1959) is a former member of the administration of United States President George W. Bush. Before serving in the federal government, he was a lawyer and lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute.

READ ON

99 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:23:10pm

Pat Condell...
Aggressive atheism
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

100 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:23:41pm

re: #77 Varek Raith

Bannon's worst script, in probably all of Star Trek, was the "Threshold" episode in Voyager.
/So bad, it was unofficially struck from canon.


While reading through the long and elaborate recap might be more painful than enlightening, Agony Booth has an article on Threshold.
I liked it.

The recap, that is, not the episode.

101 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:24:16pm

re: #93 Andrew X

...That is largely what this story is all about...

Yes, the "story", or rather, the "narrative" that is being pushed by those who find that the only way to further their agenda is by poisoning the well of the publics' knowledge of the science.

The Bookers and Delingpoles and Inhofes of the world want to push the story that the scientists can't be trusted, therefore AGW is false.

That is their argument.

It is a fallacy.

It is also a lie.

102 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:24:19pm

re: #93 Andrew X

Freetoken -

BUT... if you do not acknowledge the categorical "effort by interested parties" on the pro-global warming side, you can never advance beyond that 'A'. That is largely what this story is all about. That "effort by interested parties" does not have to be all about money. There is an imperative out there that is every bit as powerful as greed, and that is the statist narrative that gives a great many people (particularily who have abandoned religious faith) a meaning and purose to their lives. And all too often that purpose is to "fix the world" at the expense of a great many others who simply do not see the world as they do.

This story is about people pushing that narrative, and running roughshod over honest and genuine (and self-critical!) science to do so. So that is a fundamental part of 'A', and as long as it is not acknowledged by the "warming" community, they will face major resistance to their plans for us all, and well they should.

Right. And yet, just a few comments ago you were promoting an article in The Times that deliberately distorts the truth. I show this in my post beyond any doubt. No data was destroyed, and no data is missing.

You seem to be really anxious to point fingers at the scientific community, while totally ignoring that there are dishonest groups like the CEI who are flat-out LYING about issues like this.

103 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:24:59pm

re: #67 HoosierHoops

I'm jacked! 2 minutes to play..We took them to school today in the 2nd half.

dude ... you fucking stomped their asses!

104 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:25:20pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Pat Condell...
Aggressive atheism
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

thanks for that...

105 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:26:11pm

re: #96 Andrew X

Let me help there. Freeman Dyson is a critic of the AGW proponents. I suppose he is one of the more respected critics.

106 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:26:45pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

The guy definitely has opinions.

107 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:26:53pm

re: #104 albusteve

Not one of his best rants. Kind of a mixed bag; some really good points and some off base statements. He's always interesting though.

108 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:27:24pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Pat Condell...
Aggressive atheism
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I lost quite a bit of respect for Condell when he swallowed the BS about the Obama administration being in favor of the OIC's anti-blasphemy UN resolution, and took off on a rant about it. The story was completely false; the Obama administration is actually strongly opposed to that resolution.

Condell's BS detector doesn't seem to be working.

109 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:28:17pm

re: #97 Charles

Should I quote something I disagree with in order to make my point? Of course I am going to quote Monbiot on a point where we agree.

110 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:29:00pm

re: #109 lightspeed

Should I quote something I disagree with in order to make my point? Of course I am going to quote Monbiot on a point where we agree.

So now you'll take him at his word? Why not when he tells you that global warming is undeniably real?

111 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:29:04pm

re: #108 Charles

Was that the "wake up America" rant? I don't think I even made it all the way through that one.

112 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:29:30pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Was that the "wake up America" rant? I don't think I even made it all the way through that one.

That's the one.

113 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:29:38pm

re: #109 lightspeed

Should I quote something I disagree with in order to make my point? Of course I am going to quote Monbiot on a point where we agree.

But would you quote Mao on point where you both agreed? And would you be able to withstand the scorn of glenn beck if you did?

114 Andrew X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:30:26pm

There have been a LOT of people over the past decade plus who are "really anxious to point fingers", and then proceed to turn our economies, nations, and lives upside-down on that basis, based on an extremely grand paradigm that remains unproven, and which there seems to be growing evidence that contradicts, or at least shows that these same people would do well to learn a little humility.

"Beware anyone advocating a 'crisis', the solution to which is that you must do what they have been advocating all along."

I seem to remember a somewhat heroic movement (in their own minds, certainly) that held the concept of "question authority" almost as canon. Maybe that was just an ancient era.

115 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:32:01pm

re: #114 Andrew X

The politics involved only affects the politics and the solutions, not the actual science involved. Do you have something that refutes the actual science, or do you only have hot air about the left?

116 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:33:45pm

re: #110 Charles

So one can't agree with something a person says without agreeing with all a person says? Wow, that blows me away. This discussion is going nowhere fast.

117 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:34:11pm

well, considering it appears many would really like to develop their own understanding of enhanced greenhouse, based on science, not innuendo, ad hominem attacks, 'appeal to authority', and on and on...
why not go visit a very servicable Primer on atmospheric physics, high school math really, nothing controversial...and only then return to 'discuss on the merits'?
y'see, even laymen can find this 'accessible' - "what we know".

"Dare Ya!"

118 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:34:30pm

re: #114 Andrew X

I seem to remember a somewhat heroic movement (in their own minds, certainly) that held the concept of "question authority" almost as canon. Maybe that was just an ancient era.

Why don't you feel like it's necessary to apply that same "question authority" concept to the industry front groups promoting lies about global warming?

Science, by the way, is not an "authority." It's a process that involves nothing BUT questioning authority, questioning assumptions, and fiercely debating hypotheses to get at the truth.

You obviously feel differently, but I'm vastly more willing to accept the conclusions of scientists than I am to blindly accept propaganda from groups tied to the energy industries and far right partisans.

119 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:34:51pm

re: #114 Andrew X

?.. So, ummm, huh?

re: #117 Tiburon

Junkscience.com is bullshit.

120 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:35:00pm

re: #114 Andrew X


I seem to remember a somewhat heroic movement (in their own minds, certainly) that held the concept of "question authority" almost as canon. Maybe that was just an ancient era.

"Question authority" does not mean "obfuscate research", except in the minds of the deniers, who have seared their conscience of inquisitiveness over what the science really is.

121 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:35:01pm
The data is still there — you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center.”

Is there a site or link out there of anyone who has actually done that...gone and gotten the original data from NOAA. That to me would seem to be the logical course to put this "deleted data" argument to bed.

122 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:35:37pm

Somehow this got to the White House:

FOIA

RECORD TYPE: FEDERAL (NOTES MAIL)
CREATOR:"S. Fred Singer" ( "S. Fred Singer" CREATION DATE/TIME:19-JUN-2003 09:14:46.00
SUBJECT:: Fwd: Report by the E.P.A. Leaves Out Data on Climate Change
CC:mebell
CC:wsoon
CC:Kenneth L. Peel
CC:flsmith@cei.xxx

TO:rlindzen@xxx ( rlindzen@xxx)

Dick

Tx for yr talk yesterday.

I understand yr pessimism but that's because you live in Cambridge People's in the Republic of Mass. I on the other hand read the Wash Times every morning and talk to my friends at CEI, Cato and all the other Cooler Heads. It does affect one's outlook.

And -- collectively - we are getting through. See attached and note the
consternation.

Hope you enjoy the spoof on the NYT that I sent you yesterday

PS~Y I attach my think piece for Mahoney on climate models.yyy I have now had a chance to study and compare the strengths and weaknesses of the NCAR, GISS, and CFDL models.

To: deckerfw@xxx

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:51:53 -0700
Subject: Report by the E.P.A. Leaves Out Data on Climate Change
X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33

This looks like a positive development. But of course the NYT puts it in a negative light. Note especially the third paragraph from the end. Someone must be getting through to the White House!

Did some quick clean up here so pardon the occasional odd text.

123 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:09pm

re: #90 freetoken

We're having two conversations here:

A. What is the truth
B. What are we going to do with it

Because of fear of what might come out of B, you seem to be avoiding A with all of its sticky cultural/social implications.

I for one think the A discussion ought to be settled,


No, it's not settled, because what is being argued is the accuracy of MODELS. Pls point me to a link where "the models" are showing the current cooling trend that some AGW-proponents are saying is just a pause.

The test of any model is how well it predicts actual behavior. That's why you have a cone of uncertainty for hurricane/typhoon tracking.

The other problem is that the forecasted temperature rise of these models occurs beyond most adults' lifetimes.

124 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:30pm

re: #117 Tiburon

When a site starts with a strawman attack (about the meaning of "greenhouse") it seems pretty clear that the rest of the argumentation goings to be pretty weak too.

125 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:38pm

re: #117 Tiburon

well, considering it appears many would really like to develop their own understanding of enhanced greenhouse, based on science, not innuendo, ad hominem attacks, 'appeal to authority', and on and on...
why not go visit a very servicable Primer on atmospheric physics, high school math really, nothing controversial...and only then return to 'discuss on the merits'?
y'see, even laymen can find this 'accessible' - "what we know".

"Dare Ya!"

And what do you know. Yet another front group for the tobacco industry and the energy industries.

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

It never stops.

126 soxfanscott  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:50pm

Question Authority... Unless It's Wearing a Lab Coat

127 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:50pm

re: #122 Gus 802

Appreciate all the links you provided on this thread!

128 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:38:03pm

re: #127 Varek Raith

Appreciate all the links you provided on this thread!

Ditto.

But of course, you realize that the climate deniers won't look at them.

129 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:38:30pm

re: #127 Varek Raith

Appreciate all the links you provided on this thread!

You're welcome. I stumbled upon this earlier. Lots of correspondence between CEI and the White House.

Here's a Lindzen-Whitehouse search.

130 Lightspeed  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:40:43pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

I have never quoted Mao, but have been known to quote Stalin. I don't think I have ever quoted Beck.

131 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:42:41pm

re: #116 lightspeed

So one can't agree with something a person says without agreeing with all a person says? Wow, that blows me away. This discussion is going nowhere fast.

George Monbiot says that for political reasons Phil Jones should resign.

George Monbiot also says that the stolen CRU data contains absolutely nothing to "refute" global warming.

If you're going to accept Monbiot's opinion on the former, why are you so ready to dismiss what he says about the latter?

132 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:43:12pm

re: #123 nmdesertrat

Pls point me to a link where "the models" are showing the current cooling trend that some AGW-proponents are saying is just a pause.

What "cooling trend"?

133 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:43:49pm

re: #125 Charles

Dear Charles: - I don't really give a damn who Milloy is, nor his site. Perhaps you didn't catch my point. Do you have any cogent objections to his presentation of the state-of-art understandings of atmospheric physics? There's nothing particularly arcane here (I could link you to such, if I had much hope of proper debate here, rather than, forgive me for saying it, 'gossip and counter-gossip'), in what he's presented.
If it is flawed in any meaningful way, not whether or not he 'has an agenda' (which of course he does!), than hold forth, please!?

134 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:45:39pm

re: #133 Tiburon

Dear Charles: - I don't really give a damn who Milloy is, nor his site. Perhaps you didn't catch my point. Do you have any cogent objections to his presentation of the state-of-art understandings of atmospheric physics? There's nothing particularly arcane here (I could link you to such, if I had much hope of proper debate here, rather than, forgive me for saying it, 'gossip and counter-gossip'), in what he's presented.
If it is flawed in any meaningful way, not whether or not he 'has an agenda' (which of course he does!), than hold forth, please!?

I loked at the link, and it's absolutely packed with misinformation. Which is exactly what I'd expect from a front group for the energy industries.

135 jaunte  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:45:49pm

Some background on Steven J. Milloy of DemandDebate.com and JunkScience.com:
[Link: www.scholarsandrogues.com...]

136 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:47:20pm

Haven't had much time to read too much into this "stolen email" scandal; been too busy learning to fly a new aircraft. But just to do my part, I'm using all LED Christmas lights this year. The package says they are 83% more energy efficient than the tradittional lights. Maybe if we all tried to use less energy, we'd have less of an impact on the climate and there wouldn't be a need for a AGW debate.

Just a thought. Happy Thanksgiving all!

137 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:47:42pm

Partial response from White House Counsel Edward A. Boling.

RE: Appeal of FOIA Request to CEQ Regarding the U.S. Climate Action Report 2002

Dear Ms. Ianon:

This is a follow-up to the "final response" of the Council on Environmental Quality ("CEQ") to your December 4, 2003 Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA") request. That letter, daired July 15, 2004, itemized twenty-one (21) documents which had been refenred to the Department of Justice ("DOT') and the Environmental Protection Agency ("EPA") for consultation and recommendations on matters regarding release. These documents were reviewed by Pauline Milius for the Environment and Natural Resources Division of DOJ and Nancy Ketcham-Colwill for EPA's Office of the General Counsel.

Due to an oversight on my part, I neglected to inform. you that we are also withholding sixty-nine (69) CEQ documents, totaling eight hundred and ninety (890) pages. These CEQ documents were reviewed by CEQ Chief of Staff, Philip Cooney; Associate Director for Global Environmental Affairs, Kenneth Peel; and Deputy General Counsel and FOIA Officer, Edward Boling. Wr. Cooney participated solely in his capacity as custodian of the records of CEQ Chainnan lames L. Connaughton. These documents are being withheld as material exempt from disclosure pursuant to title 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(5). This completes our response to your request.

138 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:47:56pm
139 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:48:43pm

re: #135 jaunte

Some background on Steven J. Milloy of DemandDebate.com and JunkScience.com:
[Link: www.scholarsandrogues.com...]

From the link:

Mr. Milloy’s JunkScience.com website is a black hole when it comes to who supports it. Officially it’s sponsored by Mr. Milloy’s Citizens for the Integrity of Science (CFIS), a group that a) doesn’t officially make enough money (

140 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:50:19pm

re: #126 soxfanscott

Question Authority... Unless It's Wearing a Lab Coat

re: #114 Andrew X

I seem to remember a somewhat heroic movement (in their own minds, certainly) that held the concept of "question authority" almost as canon. Maybe that was just an ancient era.

Questioning authority is good. Challenging yourself to understand something you currently don't is better.

There comes a point though, when you're no longer questioning, and instead refusing to listen or read what answers are made available. At that point you are not questioning authority, but merely rebelling against it, for whatever reason.

I'm not saying it applies to you both, I cannot gauge your motivations. I'm just pointing out that the best intended advice can be corrupted very fast.

141 a marine mom  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:50:46pm

From what I have been able to ascertain from all the believers and deniers is that the believers don't want to have the debate and the deniers want one.

I do have a problem with VP Gore running around the globe using fossil fuels. Maybe, just maybe he should have stayed home and used satellite technology more often then not. The best way to lead is by example.

This is a real debacle no matter which side of the fence you are on.

142 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:51:11pm

re: #137 Gus 802

Response from Mass. in 2004:

Conclusion:

CEQ violated its obligations under FOIA and under its own regulations in responding to our FOJA request. Regardless of whether such violations are due to an intentional effort to conceal unprotected, but potentially embarrassing comments, or due to simple negligence in the level of care used by CEQ in evaluating responsive documents, such violations call into question the legality of all of CEQ's decisions to withhold documents or information. At a minimum, CEQ must provide a detailed description of the withheld documents and redacted portions of documents, its reasons and factual bases for claiming that they fall within Exemption 5 or Exemption 6, and the names of all individuals that participated in the decisions. CEQ must disclose any documents or portions of documents that do not clearly meet the exemption standards. We reserve the right to challenge CEQ's continued withholding once it has completed these steps.

143 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:51:20pm

re: #123 nmdesertrat

No, it's not settled, because what is being argued is the accuracy of MODELS. Pls point me to a link where "the models" are showing the current cooling trend that some AGW-proponents are saying is just a pause.

The test of any model is how well it predicts actual behavior. That's why you have a cone of uncertainty for hurricane/typhoon tracking.

The other problem is that the forecasted temperature rise of these models occurs beyond most adults' lifetimes.

What is this cooling trend of which you speak? I don't think those words mean what you think they mean...

144 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:52:22pm

re: #141 a marine mom

Red herring. Al Gore has nothing to do with the science behind AGW. Deniers don't want a debate. That's why the lie and misrepresent the data.

145 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:53:02pm

And of course, Ed Morrissey at Hot Air is eagerly promoting the complete falsehood that the CRU destroyed data and it's now lost forever.

No data was destroyed. No data is lost. The NOAA has all of the raw data that the CRU used.

I'm so disgusted with the right wing blogosphere on this issue, there are no words for it. These are people who used to pride themselves on fact checking, and now they're marching in lock step to promote lies.

146 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:55:29pm

re: #143 austin_blue

Not only is the whole "cooling trend" canard played all the time here, so is the idea that somehow climate changes are always monotonic or that models always give that as an answer.

Human actions, as well as natural variations, can lead to cooling. And indeed models show this quite readily.

It is just that the net human action is towards one of warming the surface, and quite significantly as time goes on. Not that there is an end to variation.

147 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:55:30pm

"packed with misinformation"
ok...have a good day, sir - that really helped. BTW, Charles, before I take another extended break from the exciting fray here, do you care to comment on the apparent deep involvement of SHELL OIL (that's an 'energy industry', isn't it?) with the CRU - revealed in the stolen released emails?
I always say, Charles - Follow the MONEY. And as L.Cohen sings, 'deal has been dirty since dirty began'...so directly speaking (I always try and be 'frank') - quite a few folk on both sides of this oh-so-settled debate have their hands in a pretty deep till.
You may be right that "energy industries" are driving scientific research to resist precipitate decisions involving their corporate futures. Why wouldn't they? But the issue is one of Science in the end, and were I to point out that the biggest corporate supporters of the AWG theory stand to profit mightely from carbon trading, well...I'd be doing the same thing I'm accusing you of doing, right? Obfusticating the debate by attacking the messengers of any contrarian opinion.

148 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:56:17pm

re: #136 Jetpilot1101

I think it's your duty as an American to talk to your Commander to take me up in a jet and make me scream like a little girl and make me throw up in the back seat...It's the least you could do for your country...
*wink*
/You know you want to

149 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #145 Charles

They remind me of the loony left that they were so eager to disparage when they spewed all sorts of 9-11 conspiracy theories etc. The right has gone off a cliff. Problem is, the moderate folks in America are becoming fewer and fewer. I can't tell you how many folks I know are marching in lockstep with Beck, Rush and Hannity. It's sad but scary at the same time.

150 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:56:47pm

re: #147 Tiburon

Playing the victim when your sources are the guilty party is especially odorous.

151 a marine mom  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:57:16pm

re: #144 Varek Raith

I didn't say VP Gore had anything to do with the science behind AGW. As a matter fact the new paragraph there indicated a new thought.

152 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:58:15pm

re: #141 a marine mom

re: #141 a marine mom

From what I have been able to ascertain from all the believers and deniers is that the believers don't want to have the debate and the deniers want one.
...
This is a real debacle no matter which side of the fence you are on.


Thank you, Marine Mom. My impression as well, here and pretty well everywhere I look.

153 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:58:30pm

re: #145 Charles

And of course, Ed Morrissey at Hot Air is eagerly promoting the complete falsehood that the CRU destroyed data and it's now lost forever.

No data was destroyed. No data is lost. The NOAA has all of the raw data that the CRU used.

I'm so disgusted with the right wing blogosphere on this issue, there are no words for it. These are people who used to pride themselves on fact checking, and now they're marching in lock step to promote lies.

Has anyone actually fact checked with NOAA and verified that they have the original data? Not being a denier here...just think this would be a good thing to check.

154 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:58:57pm

re: #147 Tiburon

"packed with misinformation"
ok...have a good day, sir - that really helped.

You're welcome, glad I could help. I suggest you find better sources for your education on climate change, instead of taking garbage from the mouths of liars.

155 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:59:37pm

re: #148 HoosierHoops

I think it's your duty as an American to talk to your Commander to take me up in a jet and make me scream like a little girl and make me throw up in the back seat...It's the least you could do for your country...
*wink*
/You know you want to

If I could, I would take up every last Lizard in good standing and make them pass out. Unfortuntely, policies have changed and "friends" aren't allowed to fly. Happened when the Army orphaned about 6 kids because 2 pilots decided it would be cool to show their wives some "neat flying". It ended badly and thus spoiled if for the rest of us.

156 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:00:42pm

re: #31 Fenway_Nation

Oh...and Charles:

I'm wondering- what sacrifices do you reccommend the [bare minimum] 10.2% of people without jobs in this country make?

Unemployed people will reduce their carbon footprint anyway by spending less, not taking expensive vacations, not buying airplane tickets, eating less, etc.

157 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:01:29pm

re: #149 Jetpilot1101

Perhaps a day will come when folks come to understand beck, rush and hannity do not have the conservative movement's best interests at heart, but are merely self-interested attention whores. Maybe then, we can start to make progress again as a movement. In fact, it's a lack of ideas that's hurting us as a movement:

Analysts say that could present an opening for Republicans, but the poll also shows former Republicans say by roughly 2-to-1 they left because the GOP seemed partisan and offered few new ideas.

source

158 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:01:43pm

re: #155 Jetpilot1101

Thanks for being there

*jealous!*

159 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:03:23pm

re: #146 freetoken

Not only is the whole "cooling trend" canard played all the time here, so is the idea that somehow climate changes are always monotonic or that models always give that as an answer.

Human actions, as well as natural variations, can lead to cooling. And indeed models show this quite readily.

It is just that the net human action is towards one of warming the surface, and quite significantly as time goes on. Not that there is an end to variation.

Sure. Another Pinatubo could happen tomorrow and lead to a net cooling in the northern hemisphere for a couple of years. But it wouldn't affect the southern hemisphere that much and the net trend to increased warming worldwide would continue perforce.

We are galloping toward a 50% increase in CO2 over anything we have seen in any of the previous interglacial cycles of the previous 3 million years. No trace of APG? The greatest scientific farce ever perpetrated on the human race?

Please people, if you believe that, you need to whack yourself with a clue bat.

160 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:03:33pm

re: #156 Alouette

Unemployed people will reduce their carbon footprint anyway by spending less, not taking expensive vacations, not buying airplane tickets, eating less, etc.

You assume they are ging to be responsible and that is a huge stretch. I would bet that many unemployed people are not changing their lifestyle one bit but racking up the credit card bills with extreme prejudice. In this government bailout era, I think they figure on a free ride at some point in time. Just an opinion but based on years of watching people live way above their means and then blame someone else for their problems.

161 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:04:16pm

re: #155 Jetpilot1101

If I could, I would take up every last Lizard in good standing and make them pass out. Unfortuntely, policies have changed and "friends" aren't allowed to fly. Happened when the Army orphaned about 6 kids because 2 pilots decided it would be cool to show their wives some "neat flying". It ended badly and thus spoiled if for the rest of us.

Sorry to hear that...I admire you..
May God always be your Co-Pilot my friend...

162 soxfanscott  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:04:26pm

re: #140 cenotaphium

Simply having a good time of it on this subject.
However...Sunlight is the best disinfectant,” a well-known quote from U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, refers to the benefits of openness and transparency.

163 pyrodoctor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:05:01pm

I believe that the raw data they used are still intact. Somewhere. However, as a researcher myself, if I were to delete my raw data I would be hung from the highest yardarm that the Quality Assurance/Quality Control folks could find.

Part of the whole thing about peer reviewed literature is that using the information in the papers, anyone with similar degrees of technical proficiency as the manuscript authors could end up with the same analytical results all the way down to the average temperatures and standard deviations etc. By dumping the raw data (even if they did not generate the raw data) they are making it difficult for later investigators reproducing their results. It is pretty suspicious to me and reeks of scientific dishonesty.

164 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:05:14pm

re: #141 a marine mom

From what I have been able to ascertain from all the believers and deniers is that the believers don't want to have the debate and the deniers want one.

I do have a problem with VP Gore running around the globe using fossil fuels. Maybe, just maybe he should have stayed home and used satellite technology more often then not. The best way to lead is by example.

This is a real debacle no matter which side of the fence you are on.

The 'believers' have been having this debate since at least the 70's. The debate is over. The science is in. We now need to debate the best solutions to this monumental problem. The deniers want to perpetually debate so that nothing happens.

165 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:06:04pm

re: #141 a marine mom

From what I have been able to ascertain from all the believers and deniers is that the believers don't want to have the debate and the deniers want one.

This, by itself, tells us nothing. Creationists want a "debate", in fact they're often very good at it. But the point of the debate is not to critically examine the field of evolution, but to throw obfuscation (or FUD) over the whole issue, so that they with some rhetorical skill can appear to have a good point.

There is nothing clandestine about the scientists who have realized this tactic and hence refused to engage in debates. It doesn't mean creationism has a point.

The underlying point I'm trying to make is that it's much easier to smear an issue, than to build one up. For every bullshit claim it takes seconds to conjure, a debunker could spend hours or days trying to show why it's bullshit. The cards are always stacked against someone working to promote truth, in any issue.

You may frame it as if "believers" (in which I assume you include the actual scientists) don't want to debate. That's not true, even the leaked "scandal" emails shows that the scientists debate. They might however want to pick whom they debate, and why.

166 checked08  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:06:20pm

Semi-OT, but awesome none the less
First osmosis power plant goes on stream in Norway

The world's first prototype osmotic power station Movie Camera came on stream this week.

Sited on the banks of the Oslo fjord in southern Norway, it generates electricity using the natural process that keeps plants standing upright and the cells of our own bodies swollen, rigid and hydrated.

Osmosis occurs wherever two solutions of different concentrations meet at a semipermeable membrane. The spontaneous passage of water from dilute to concentrated solutions through the membrane generates a pressure difference that can be harnessed to generate power.
SNIP


Yeah, the article goes on to say that the plant is continuously generating 4 kilowatts, but it's still neat!

167 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:06:24pm

re: #145 Charles


I'm so disgusted with the right wing blogosphere on this issue, there are no words for it. These are people who used to pride themselves on fact checking, and now they're marching in lock step to promote lies.

They need to hate Al Gore like they need to hate President Obama. Those bloggers and their supporters are so used to the adrenalin high that anger brings that they will not let a period go by where they might be more reflective.

They really could use a good year at Buddhist monastery.

Yesterday I linked to a public lecture from last spring at the Perimeter Institute, where the lecturer reviewed some interesting insights into humans and probability and our thinking process. (Not an especially good lecturer but still good content.) He brought up the idea of how judgement can be impaired by previous thoughts, or thoughts still fresh in the mind, using the old Guess-the-number-of-nations-in-Africa game. This is a test where there are two questionnaires, each with two questions, the second on each which is identical ("how many countries are there in Africa?") but the first question on each questionnaire are quite the opposite. The idea is that the first question directly influences how people answer the second one.

HotAir and the like are suffering from this same phenomenon, IMO. It is more than just simple fallacious reasoning (e.g. Al Gore is bad, Al Gore believes in AGW, therefore believing in AGW is bad.) I contend that the HotAir posters' (and the like) judgement process is so influenced by other politically-relevant thought that they are totally unaware that their thinking on science has become skewed away from being able to appreciate what is factual.

168 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:06:35pm

re: #161 HoosierHoops

He's blessed me in more ways then I can count. I love flying and I love the military. I am interested in my CINC's speech on Afghanistan. Should be interesting.

169 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:06:50pm

re: #164 recusancy

The 'believers' have been having this debate since at least the 70's. The debate is over. The science is in. We now need to debate the best solutions to this monumental problem. The deniers want to perpetually debate so that nothing happens.

Ding ding ding!!

Follow the money. Figure out whose ox will be gored. It is the people funding the deniers, every time

170 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:07:07pm

re: #156 Alouette

Unemployed people will reduce their carbon footprint anyway by spending less, not taking expensive vacations, not buying airplane tickets, eating less, etc.

Oh...I'm sure they need to sacrifice more.

That's not very reassuring.

171 a marine mom  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:07:51pm

re: #164 recusancy

re: #164 recusancy

The 'believers' have been having this debate since at least the 70's. The debate is over. The science is in. We now need to debate the best solutions to this monumental problem. The deniers want to perpetually debate so that nothing happens.

If the debate is over, then why are we still debating if there is a creator or not?

172 checked08  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:08:42pm

re: #166 checked08

Um, "Movie Camera" isn't the name of the plant, just the name of the icon used to represent the embedded link.

173 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:08:43pm

re: #163 pyrodoctor

I believe that the raw data they used are still intact. Somewhere. However, as a researcher myself, if I were to delete my raw data I would be hung from the highest yardarm that the Quality Assurance/Quality Control folks could find.

Part of the whole thing about peer reviewed literature is that using the information in the papers, anyone with similar degrees of technical proficiency as the manuscript authors could end up with the same analytical results all the way down to the average temperatures and standard deviations etc. By dumping the raw data (even if they did not generate the raw data) they are making it difficult for later investigators reproducing their results. It is pretty suspicious to me and reeks of scientific dishonesty.

Quote:

The research unit has deleted less than 5 percent of its original station data from its database because the stations had several discontinuities or were affected by urbanization trends.

The raw data was not "dumped." The raw data still exists, and there's nothing to stop anyone from requesting the data from NOAA and running comparisons between that data and the CRU's processed data. Nothing is hidden, nothing was destroyed, and there's nothing dishonest about this in the slightest.

174 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:09:04pm

re: #154 Charles
well actually, Charles - I did something that, it appears to me at face*, you have not done. A number of years ago, I studied the work and endless links to study presented by John Daly, before he passed away. Probably upwards of...well, about two semesters worth, several hours each day. Call it Climate 101. I started as most of the (ex)hippy environmentally inclined do, with a strong bias in favour of AWG. But I couldn't tolerate being lost in the debate on the science forums regards the issue, so I did something about it, and well, 'doubts grew'.

* I say "appears", as given the gross simplicity of the Primer Milloy put together, were there anything controversial, "lies" as you put it...it would take less than 5 minutes to deconstruct and demolish, picking any say, 5 major points (out of the "pack of misinformation" as you put it). That you don't, well...see my recent comment to Marine Mom's very apt (IMHO) observation above...

175 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:11:06pm

re: #171 a marine mom

re: #164 recusancy

If the debate is over, then why are we still debating if there is a creator or not?

Because stuff like this makes you crazy?

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

176 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:11:29pm

re: #174 Tiburon

I have much better things to do with my time than to chase after the claims of proven liars and hacks. If you want to take their word at face value, go right ahead. It's your choice.

177 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:13:26pm

re: #173 Charles

The raw data was not "dumped." The raw data still exists, and there's nothing to stop anyone from requesting the data from NOAA and running comparisons between that data and the CRU's processed data. Nothing is hidden, nothing was destroyed, and there's nothing dishonest about this in the slightest.

Why do I get the feeling that every time that you post facts, These People put their fingers in the ears and yell, "La la la I'm not listening!!"

178 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:13:57pm

re: #164 recusancy
Gee recusancy - the 70's!?! I waz THERE, m'friend. It was Global Cooling back then and the incipient Ice Age. And the Club of Rome and Limits To Growth, which occupied a good year of my undergrad science studies.
THAT really proved out wonderfully, too! Those Computer Models, just can't keep 'em down!

179 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:14:05pm

re: #171 a marine mom

re: #164 recusancy

If the debate is over, then why are we still debating if there is a creator or not?

Because you can debate anything you want. It was a cool rainy day here in Michigan. You can come in a try to debate and say it was a warm sunny day. And anyone not living in Michigan will give both of our arguments validity because they don't know. They'll say the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. But it doesn't mean that's the truth.

180 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:14:51pm

Don't third world countries have a right to (more or less) follow the same path to first-worldism as we did? If you say they don't, then be prepared to pay.

181 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:16:06pm

re: #170 Fenway_Nation

Oh...I'm sure they need to sacrifice more.

That's not very reassuring.

It sucks not having a job.

182 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:16:14pm

re: #50 lightspeed

The CRU seemingly admits they don't have (some of) the raw data:

According to CRU’s Web site, “Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

"Data storage availabilty?" Couldn't they have printed out the data? Seems pretty sloppy to me.

A friend of mine bought a personal computer system in the early 1980's, which included a 10MB hard drive. IIRC, the drive alone cost him over $10,000. I logged on to it once, using my $250 300baud Hayes modem. Printers weren't $39 back then. My EPSON MX80 set me back $650 (1981). Ink was cheaper then, however.

183 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:16:20pm

re: #180 Boogberg

Don't third world countries have a right to (more or less) follow the same path to first-worldism as we did? If you say they don't, then be prepared to pay.

That's why one of the proposals on the table at the Copenhagen summit will be to establish an international fund to help developing nations defray the cost of complying with standards.

184 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:17:06pm

Bagua's Music Break™


Welcome to Jamrock

185 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:18:53pm

Last year one of our patent attorneys pulled the originals of a couple of patents one of my uncles had achieved back in the 1950's and 60's. I sent them to my uncle who has been retired 20 years and lives in an assisted living place. A few weeks later I got an e-mail from my cousin who said that his father (my uncle) was pleased beyond belief to get the patents and spent days digging through old boxes of work things to find and read over the original work, including hand written scraps of paper, he had done to produce those patents. I expressed surprise to my cousin that his father would have kept all that stuff and he relied; "he didn't trust anyone else to safely keep the original work."

So I guess I am a little surprised that any scientist would rely on someone else to keep original data intact. I guess the realities of mountains of data that can be produced are a constraint.

186 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:19:00pm

re: #182 abolitionist

A friend of mine bought a personal computer system in the early 1980's, which included a 10MB hard drive. IIRC, the drive alone cost him over $10,000. I logged on to it once, using my $250 300baud Hayes modem. Printers weren't $39 back then. My EPSON MX80 set me back $650 (1981). Ink was cheaper then, however.

That's right -- in the 1980s 10MB hard drives were state of the art. Climatology datasets are enormous, and take up very large amounts of storage space. Jones' explanation for why they could not archive the original NOAA data makes perfect sense -- especially when you realize that all they had was a COPY of the data, and the NOAA retained the original.

187 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:19:44pm

re: #178 Tiburon

Gee recusancy - the 70's!?! I waz THERE, m'friend. It was Global Cooling back then and the incipient Ice Age. And the Club of Rome and Limits To Growth, which occupied a good year of my undergrad science studies.
THAT really proved out wonderfully, too! Those Computer Models, just can't keep 'em down!

Oh, please don't be an idjit. The Coming Ice Age was based on the fact that CO2 had increased well beyond previous interglacial cycles and that we were due for cooling based on that simple fact.

It wasn't until researchers turned that concept sideways and took a look at it that some bright boys said, "Well, what if our activities in burning fossil fuels have changed the paradigm?"

Remember what computer processing capacity was like back in the 70's? Not nearly advanced enough to run modern climate models.

188 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:20:12pm

re: #183 Charles

Will China keep its "developing country" status? That's a sticky point, once we are talking beyond the fact of AGW.

189 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:20:50pm

re: #180 Boogberg

Don't third world countries have a right to (more or less) follow the same path to first-worldism as we did? If you say they don't, then be prepared to pay.

I'd be a usual suspect to say "yes" to this question. However, having pondered it for some time, I think "no" is a better answer. This because we have access to knowledge and technology that came through the struggles of making the "first world".
There is no reason to demand some sort of similar progression from other countries, when we have the know-how to jump straight to nuclear plants (for instance). Besides, linear progression of societies is MARXIST!!! /sarc

This, of course, brings up other problems (like which countries we want to have nuclear energy, see also Iran), and following the technology jump train of thought would no doubt cost "us" anyway. Still, it's a viable option.

190 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:21:42pm

re: #180 Boogberg

Don't third world countries have a right to (more or less) follow the same path to first-worldism as we did? If you say they don't, then be prepared to pay.

Mostly they don't have to. For example there are hardly any land line phones in China...no need. They jumped from no phones to cell phones. So developing countries can acquire modern technologies readily that were not available when the West was modernizing.

191 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:23:25pm

re: #180 Boogberg

Don't third world countries have a right to (more or less) follow the same path to first-worldism as we did? If you say they don't, then be prepared to pay.

The "right"? Not if the technological capacity is there for them to leapfrog stupid tech. How many third world countries have set up telegraph systems and steam engine based transportation models because that's how we started?

This is why it is so important for us to rebuild our manufacturing economy on solutions to this mess we can sell to the third world so they don't make things worse.

192 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:23:58pm

re: #186 Charles

That's right -- in the 1980s 10MB hard drives were state of the art. Climatology datasets are enormous, and take up very large amounts of storage space. Jones' explanation for why they could not archive the original NOAA data makes perfect sense -- especially when you realize that all they had was a COPY of the data, and the NOAA retained the original.

Oh God that brings back memories. I remember getting my first "hard card" at work. It was 10mb and I remember telling people that it would take me till retirement till I could fill it up!

193 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:24:44pm

re: #178 Tiburon

Gee recusancy - the 70's!?! I waz THERE, m'friend. It was Global Cooling back then and the incipient Ice Age.

This talking point has been repeatedly debunked here. There were 7 papers in the 70s in favor of cooling, and 44 that supported warming.

194 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:24:52pm

re: #176 Charles
Thanks Charles. That's kewl. "whatever". But I think you again missed my point - I didn't take my info and understandings from Milloy or those 'popularizing the debate', I took it from the scientists actually dealing with the issues, each in their own specializations, some 'accepted' by the IPCC, some, apparently, 'not so favoured', but in all, covering pretty well all the implicated sub-professions. Took a bit of effort. My point is that nothing that I see in Milloy's "primer" is controvertible, period. You say it is, and bring...nothing...so,..."whatever". Have fun all. In the end I expect a 'black swan' around this issue; CLIMATEGATE may raise the urgency and tone of the debate, or not - but "something else" is going to render it all...moot.
And not necessarily another Maunder Minimum, G-d Forbid. Which would kill tens of millions (if we are not greatly prepared, all of us). G-d Forbid

195 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:25:12pm

re: #178 Tiburon

Gee recusancy - the 70's!?! I waz THERE, m'friend. It was Global Cooling back then and the incipient Ice Age. And the Club of Rome and Limits To Growth, which occupied a good year of my undergrad science studies.
THAT really proved out wonderfully, too! Those Computer Models, just can't keep 'em down!

If you were in the scientific community at the time, my friend, you would know that that is myth.

196 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:27:45pm

re: #183 Charles

That's why one of the proposals on the table at the Copenhagen summit will be to establish an international fund to help developing nations defray the cost of complying with standards.

I hope they wouldn't be but, What do we do if they're reluctant to comply even WITH our help? Some of these guys are very set in their ways. You've seen the videos on Discovery and Travel. They're practically prehistoric!

197 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:28:48pm

re: #192 Big Steve

Oh God that brings back memories. I remember getting my first "hard card" at work. It was 10mb and I remember telling people that it would take me till retirement till I could fill it up!

Lawdy..I remember when my buddy bought a 4 color video card for 400 bucks or so.. I asked 'Why the hell do you need color for a computer?' All I knew was DOS and command lines...Imagine technology in 25 years from now...

198 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:29:06pm

re: #187 austin_blue
and today, they are?
I must say, there are quite a few folks here to whom I'd love to sell some 19.7 specific gravity gold bricks.

199 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:32:42pm

OK, last one.

CEQ FOIA Responses: Global Climate Change Science

Give these time to load because they're rather large PDFs of around 20MB each.

Make a note of the blacked out information and deleted email bodies.

200 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:33:29pm

re: #198 Tiburon

and today, they are?
I must say, there are quite a few folks here to whom I'd love to sell some 19.7 specific gravity gold bricks.

Austin Blue originally said:
"Remember what computer processing capacity was like back in the 70's? Not nearly advanced enough to run modern climate models."

Your answer is implying then, that our modern computers running modern climate models.. don't have the processing capacity to do so?

201 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:34:57pm

Darksyde at dkos has a good article today about the Venus Syndrome.
It gives a good primer on how fragile our climate system really is.

202 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:35:23pm

re: #200 cenotaphium


Your answer is implying then, that our modern computers running modern climate models.. don't have the processing capacity to do so?

It is my understanding that computational limitations are still a significant hurdle when it comes to the large, coupled climate models. This is why the spatial resolution is so coarse.

203 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:37:38pm

re: #192 Big Steve

One frame in my camera is over 10 meg. Computer capacity and calc speeds are now what maybe 100 times better?

204 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #202 freetoken

It is my understanding that computational limitations are still a significant hurdle when it comes to the large, coupled climate models. This is why the spatial resolution is so coarse.

Just wait 'til next week. :D

205 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:38:41pm

re: #201 recusancy

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say we are headed to a Venus-like scenario. Sure, in 500 million years or so, as our Sun continues to warm and then eventually expands, the Earth is in for a real cooking.

206 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:39:02pm

re: #193 Sharmuta
Sharmuta...I was talking about what was in the popular, mainstream press. Y'know, 'before the Internet'... not the underlying science. Anyway, what does the number of papers have to do with the legitimacy of a science argument? Most doctors favoured giving free cigarettes to soldiers going to war in WWII, on grounds that it 'calmed and boosted courage'.
Oh, I forgot, I'm supposed to be working for the tobacco companies.

Think it's time for me to "run away, run away"... due the devastating methodical and logical arguments presented here on the pro-AWG side. Feel free, those inclined to give parting shots...

207 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:39:30pm

re: #202 freetoken

Thanks for the clarification. I was going pretzel there for a moment.

208 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:39:45pm

re: #205 freetoken

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say we are headed to a Venus-like scenario. Sure, in 500 million years or so, as our Sun continues to warm and then eventually expands, the Earth is in for a real cooking.

He's not saying we're gonna be venus anytime soon. It just puts in perspective our fragility.

209 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:39:51pm

re: #205 freetoken

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say we are headed to a Venus-like scenario. Sure, in 500 million years or so, as our Sun continues to warm and then eventually expands, the Earth is in for a real cooking.

We'll be screwed if the moon gets too far away as well. I think that's due to happen before the Sun's spent.

210 armylaw  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:40:06pm

re: #141 a marine mom

Scientists don't owe a "debate" with junk science.

For a long time on USENET - including before the Web, when USENET discussion forums WERE the internet - there was a guy who lurked in all the scientific discussion forums who went by the nickname Archimedes Plutonimum. He was convinced that the Plutonium atom was God, and prolifically posted that opinion on the entire Internet.

Does the Journal of the American Chemical Society owe Archimedes Plutnonium a chance to get his bizarre rantings a reading in their journal?

211 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #206 Tiburon

I was talking about what was in the popular, mainstream press.

And that's not science.

212 Tiburon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:40:50pm

re: #200 cenotaphium
exactly, precisely, my point. Not remotely. They can't even duplicate KNOWN WEATHER (past weather). Not remotely.
But of course, I'm lying.

213 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:42:04pm

re: #207 cenotaphium

Since the surface is an area, computations that depend on area increase by the square of any distance. The large climate models run on some of the worlds' fastest computers, or are run with many machines in parallel.

214 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:42:28pm

re: #70 Charles

Meanwhile, no one seems to care in the slightest that these false claims are being floated by industry front groups, who are using the same kind of "cloud of disinformation" techniques that the tobacco industry employed for decades to confuse people about the link between tobacco smoking and cancer.

Most of what I see comes from people like Glenn Beck, Ben Stein and other talking heads. I can believe that any industry will try to avoid changes detrimental to them in the short term, but no energy industry is likely to see their existence threatened in the lifetime of their management, and the energy industry is highly science and technology loaded when it comes to recognizing the evidence available. That they will side, as industries, with the likes of Beck or Stein is hard for me to believe.

What industry groups can one identify as deliberately behind AGW disinformation?

215 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:43:54pm

re: #208 recusancy

He's not saying we're gonna be venus anytime soon. It just puts in perspective our fragility.

If the Earth was traveling in Venus's orbit all life would be dead in one pass around the sun..Venus is outside what astronomers have calculated the habitable zone for life to exist...

216 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:44:02pm

re: #212 Tiburon

Besides lying, you're also confused. For the zillionth time, weather is not climate.

And yes, believe it or not, climate models do hind-casting of recent climate reasonably well, enough to show the post WWII dip in temps, etc.

217 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:44:15pm

re: #212 Tiburon

exactly, precisely, my point. Not remotely. They can't even duplicate KNOWN WEATHER (past weather). Not remotely.
But of course, I'm lying.

Ah, I was wondering when you would finally make a point. So everything done with the climate models so far is at worst bullshit and at best wildly speculative?

Hence, we should do nothing?

218 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:45:27pm

re: #215 HoosierHoops

If the Earth was traveling in Venus's orbit all life would be dead in one pass around the sun..Venus is outside what astronomers have calculated the habitable zone for life to exist...

Did you read the article?

219 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:46:18pm

re: #218 recusancy

Did you read the article?

I have it tabbed for halftime

220 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:46:37pm

re: #212 Tiburon

exactly, precisely, my point. Not remotely. They can't even duplicate KNOWN WEATHER (past weather). Not remotely.
But of course, I'm lying.

Not that it's unique to you, but that arrogant attitude isn't doing you any favors.

Surely there is a difference between modelling a trend and modelling exact sequences of events? It'd be impossible to model every single ant and its actions in an anthill, but pretty easy to model the growth of said anthill. Saying that you can't do the latter without doing the first is factually wrong.

221 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:46:59pm

re: #214 Naso Tang

Most of what I see comes from people like Glenn Beck, Ben Stein and other talking heads. I can believe that any industry will try to avoid changes detrimental to them in the short term, but no energy industry is likely to see their existence threatened in the lifetime of their management, and the energy industry is highly science and technology loaded when it comes to recognizing the evidence available. That they will side, as industries, with the likes of Beck or Stein is hard for me to believe.

What industry groups can one identify as deliberately behind AGW disinformation?

Not all energy companies are engaged in fostering denialism. But one name that comes up over and over and over in the funding for these groups is Exxon-Mobil.

222 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:47:55pm

Frontline - Hot Politics
Examining the politics behind the U.S. government's failure to act on the biggest environmental problem of our time.

Watch the full program online.

"The way it happened was the equivalent to flipping the bird, frankly, to the rest of the world … on an issue about which they felt so deeply." That is how former New Jersey governor and the former Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator Christine Todd Whitman describes the Bush administration's decision to withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol on climate change in Hot Politics, a FRONTLINE report co-produced with the Center for Investigative Reporting (CIR).

...

In interviews with scientists like Hansen and Seitz and with political insiders including Whitman, Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) and former senator and Kyoto negotiator Tim Wirth, Hot Politics investigates why the U.S. federal government lags so far behind much of the world in responding to global climate change.

And in special reports on FRONTLINE's Web site and elsewhere, CIR and FRONTLINE go further, with features including closer looks at the manipulation and suppression of science, a timeline of the politics and science of global warming, and a map tracking U.S. CO2 emissions and regulations state-by-state.

223 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:48:53pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

We'll be screwed if the moon gets too far away as well. I think that's due to happen before the Sun's spent.

You watched that show on Cosmos also? Awesome..The Moon is slowly moving away and the earth will spin faster...What is it? an inch or so a year? I forget

224 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:49:13pm

re: #214 Naso Tang

Most of what I see comes from people like Glenn Beck, Ben Stein and other talking heads. I can believe that any industry will try to avoid changes detrimental to them in the short term, but no energy industry is likely to see their existence threatened in the lifetime of their management, and the energy industry is highly science and technology loaded when it comes to recognizing the evidence available. That they will side, as industries, with the likes of Beck or Stein is hard for me to believe.

What industry groups can one identify as deliberately behind AGW disinformation?

Start with these guys:

[Link: home.comcast.net...]

then check out coal companies. Power generators, &c, &c.

225 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #214 Naso Tang

Most of what I see comes from people like Glenn Beck, Ben Stein and other talking heads. I can believe that any industry will try to avoid changes detrimental to them in the short term, but no energy industry is likely to see their existence threatened in the lifetime of their management, and the energy industry is highly science and technology loaded when it comes to recognizing the evidence available. That they will side, as industries, with the likes of Beck or Stein is hard for me to believe.

What industry groups can one identify as deliberately behind AGW disinformation?

They haven't sided with Ben Stein and Glenn Beck. Beck and Stein have sided with the industries. Energy companies figured out who was more sympathetic to their views in the 80's and brought in the lobbying army. Now it's ingrained in the Republican psyche.

And just because they have scientists and engineers working for them doesn't mean that they are going to side with the evidence against them. The orders come from the top, CEO's.

226 jaunte  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:52:28pm

Sourcewatch has a good primer on the varieties of argument used by climate change skeptics. This description of science as political orthodoxy was another reminder of 'intelligent design vs. darwinism' threads of days gone by:

Reviewing the continued campaign by climate change skeptics, David McKnight, an associate professor at the University of New South Wales (Australia), notes that there several reasons why companies such as Exxon have had some success playing the global warming denial card. "First, the implications of the science are frightening. Shifting to renewable energy will be costly and disruptive. Second, doubt is an easy product to sell. Climate denial tells us what we all secretly want to hear. Third, science is portrayed as political orthodoxy rather than objective knowledge, a curiously postmodern argument," he writes.[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
227 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:52:45pm

re: #223 HoosierHoops

I watched A show on youtube... Perhaps it was the same one? It was called If We Had No Moon, and was narrated by Patrick Stewart.

228 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:54:04pm

re: #227 Sharmuta

I watched A show on youtube... Perhaps it was the same one? It was called If We Had No Moon, and was narrated by Patrick Stewart.

That's the one...

229 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:54:57pm

re: #221 Charles

Not all energy companies are engaged in fostering denialism. But one name that comes up over and over and over in the funding for these groups is Exxon-Mobil.

Damn, Charles. That may create a moral dilemma for some stock-holding lizards.

230 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:57:42pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

That's the one...

I love shows like that. I'm so glad for youtube and hulu that I can still get to see some of these shows even though I dropped cable tv.

231 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:58:02pm

re: #227 Sharmuta

I watched A show on youtube... Perhaps it was the same one? It was called If We Had No Moon, and was narrated by Patrick Stewart.

Astronomy and narration by Patrick Stewart? I can't resist.

I found a playlist for it.

232 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:58:47pm

re: #229 Boogberg

Good observation on the DOW Thursday, there was plenty of follow through.

Cheers.

233 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:58:56pm

re: #231 cenotaphium

I highly recommend it. Fascinating stuff!

234 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:59:16pm

re: #223 HoosierHoops

You watched that show on Cosmos also? Awesome..The Moon is slowly moving away and the earth will spin faster...What is it? an inch or so a year? I forget

Italicized part is in error. The earth's rotational angular momementum is being continually transferred to the moon. Part of earth's rotational kinetic energy is dissipated as heat in the ocean tides, and deep within the earth. Another part is transferred to the moon. The earth turns ever more slowly, and the moon's orbit is raised. The angular momentum of the earth-moon system remains invariant.

235 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:02:17pm

re: #234 abolitionist

Italicized part is in error. The earth's rotational angular momementum is being continually transferred to the moon. Part of earth's rotational kinetic energy is dissipated as heat in the ocean tides, and deep within the earth. Another part is transferred to the moon. The earth turns ever more slowly, and the moon's orbit is raised. The angular momentum of the earth-moon system remains invariant.

Without the moon, humans wouldn't exist. Life, if it had started at all, would be in the earliest stages of evolution. Days would last four hours, winds would blow at hurricane force and there would be a dense and toxic atmosphere resembling that of Venus.

Hey I didn't write that stuff...*wink*
Earth spins faster...Don't mess with Patrick Steward..LOL

236 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:02:27pm

re: #232 Bagua

Good observation on the DOW Thursday, there was plenty of follow through.

Cheers.

Yeah, it was that Dubai World crap that spooked the market. Hoping for a full recovery tomorrow.

237 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:03:52pm

Man, this kid Johnson with Tennessee is just one hell of a halfback. Just ripped off an 85-yard TD against the Cards.

238 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:04:32pm

re: #235 HoosierHoops

I never mess with Patric Stuart. :)

240 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:05:30pm

PIMF: Patrick Steward

241 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:06:36pm

And the Cards respond with a 98-yard KO return. Good game.

242 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:07:27pm

re: #240 abolitionist

PIMF: Patrick Steward

Dude...

:-)

(I've had days like that!)

243 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:07:32pm

Patrick Stewart could recite the warning label on a can of Lysol disinfectant...And it would be cool! :D

244 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:08:13pm

re: #243 Boogberg

Patrick Stewart could recite the warning label on a can of Lysol disinfectant...And it would be cool! :D

Gurney Halleck!

245 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:08:51pm

re: #236 Boogberg

Yeah, it was that Dubai World crap that spooked the market. Hoping for a full recovery tomorrow.

It has already begun, Friday was wildly volatile and then closed near the open. Tonight's bounce is not surprising.

246 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:08:53pm

re: #243 Boogberg

Patrick Stewart could recite the warning label on a can of Lysol disinfectant...And it would be cool! :D

Make it so Boogberg...Engage!

247 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:17:37pm

re: #243 Boogberg

Patrick Stewart could recite the warning label on a can of Lysol disinfectant...And it would be cool! :D

Didn't he almost do that once?

Darmok on the ocean! Sokath, his eyes uncovered! Temba, his arms wide!

248 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:20:25pm

re: #247 cenotaphium

Didn't he almost do that once?

Darmok on the ocean! Sokath, his eyes uncovered! Temba, his arms wide!


[Video]

One of the more, uh, unusual episodes, that one.

249 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:22:58pm

re: #248 Gang of One

One of the more, uh, unusual episodes, that one.

Riker got his ass kicked. Boy, was he pissed! :D

250 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:26:30pm

re: #249 Boogberg

Riker got his ass kicked. Boy, was he pissed! :D

Never cared for Riker. Can't say, exactly. Just rubbed me the wrong way.

251 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:33:46pm

re: #250 Gang of One

Never cared for Riker. Can't say, exactly. Just rubbed me the wrong way.

I thought his character got better with age. I suppose they all did. He was arrogant but Captain Jelico laid the smack-down on his ass. :D

252 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:36:14pm

The [Secret] Energy Task Force

Most of the activities of the Energy Task Force had not been disclosed to the public, even though Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests (since 19 April 2001) have sought to gain access to its materials. The organisations Judicial Watch and Sierra Club launched a law suit (U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia: Judicial Watch Inc. v. Department of Energy, et al., Civil Action No. 01-0981) under the FOIA to gain access to the task force's materials. After several years of legal wrangling, in May, 2005 an appeals court permitted the Energy Task Force's records to remain secret.

SNIP

On July 18, 2007, the Washington Post reported the names of those involved in the Task Force, including at least 40 meetings with interest groups, most of them from energy-producing industries. Among those in the meetings were James J. Rouse, then vice president of Exxon Mobil and a major donor to the Bush inauguration; Kenneth L. Lay, then head of Enron Corp.; Jack N. Gerard, then with the National Mining Association; Red Cavaney, president of the American Petroleum Institute; and Eli Bebout, an old friend of Cheney's from Wyoming who serves in the state Senate and owns an oil and drilling company.

This secret meeting in effect led to the reversal of the Bush administrations policy on carbon caps. Bush made campaign commitments in 2000 when running against Gore promising caps that even exceeded those proposed by Gore. This meeting also later led to the ambushing of Christine Todd Whitman and her subsequent resignation.

253 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:46:36pm

Riker get owned:

"I don't want to talk about it. Get it done."

Bwaahahahaha!

254 Deseeded  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:47:21pm

Hey all! :)

I guess my question is why we haven't had more (real, no governmental lobbying) debate. Be it real or fake, shouldn't we be vociferously debating all angles? It seems so unscientific to strong-arm either way. When I present collected data at work, I include all the points...including those that are specious. I qualify my work with statistical modeling that is both bad and good, not "massaged" per se. I'm no marketing "engineer". :D

255 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:52:45pm

This is all that was obtained on the secret Energy Task Force meeting:

Maps and Charts of Iraqi Oil Fields

These are documents turned over by the Commerce Department, under a March 5, 2002 court order as a result of Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force. The documents contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents are dated March 2001. Click here to view the press release.

Be sure and look around the Judicial Watch website. There is something for everyone over there -- hair raising stuff.

256 marksstudio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:55:25pm

Why hell yes, these guys have our best interests at heart and we do this to them? Absolutely BushHitlerMcHaliburton like. Bloody well ungrateful, is what it is.

All they want to do is secure themselves a place in the sun. OK, bad analogy, but all the science is in, and all of us little people better realize that our betters have our better interests at heart, so a lie is not a lie, unless...well, who tells the unvarnished truth nowadays anyway? Spin is everywhere. I mean spin is in. All of us are waaay too busy in our workaday world so we cede larger thinking to the high forehead types, because it has been proven through the peer review process that all the science is all in. So really, no worries about changing our economy on this basis. Certainly not the time to be small minded, eh?

That fallacy of 'One (there's currently three) volcano(s) spewing enough CO2 and sulfates to equal 300 years of human output' is just, I mean really, on the face of it is just really ridiculous, and bringing up the Sun, why that's an insult to the men and women(mostly men) who have given their lives to the science being all in and the unadulterated peer review process that weeds out the unqualified, allowing the qualified to have the lectern that they went to college for, fer christ's sake. Give 'em room, and cut 'em some slack.

I mean really.

257 Deseeded  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:00:23pm

re: #256 marksstudio

Man, you weave better than the sushi chef tonight! Haha, I totally appreciate your post!

Hahaha! I can't stop chortling and snickering! :D :D

258 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:00:30pm

re: #254 Deseeded

I guess my question is why we haven't had more (real, no governmental lobbying) debate. Be it real or fake, shouldn't we be vociferously debating all angles? It seems so unscientific to strong-arm either way.

Did you see my #165? Not all debate is scientific, nor for the purpose of enlightenment.

I also say something about the difference between questioning authority and just rebelling against it in another post. There is debate, even the non-constructive kind has plenty of outlets (many of which are referenced in this very thread). I don't get how anyone can claim there isn't debate other than as a talking point.

259 Deseeded  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:06:02pm

re: #258 cenotaphium

Did you see my #165? Not all debate is scientific, nor for the purpose of enlightenment.

I also say something about the difference between questioning authority and just rebelling against it in another post. There is debate, even the non-constructive kind has plenty of outlets (many of which are referenced in this very thread). I don't get how anyone can claim there isn't debate other than as a talking point.

Thanks for the link, I did not see your original post. I totally agree! The most important part of a hypothesis-in-training is the ability to negate and disprove all negative data. It requires both opposition (the prosecutors) and the defendants to make a case and be held up to a higher (whatever level we set the bar at in our capability as stalwart unaffected reasoners) standard.

Strong-arms gain temporary support. Data trumps. Like in golf. Drive for show, putt for dough. :)

260 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:10:40pm

re: #256 marksstudio

Volcanoes produce less CO2 than human activity. In fact they also contribute to cooling.

...

This seems like a huge amount of CO2, but a visit to the U.S. Department of Energy's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website ([Link: cdiac.ornl.gov...] helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO2 tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO2 not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value.

...

Volcanoes are still awesome, even though they don't produce CO2 at a rate that swamps the human signature, contributing to global warming. In fact, spectacular eruptions like that of Mount Pinatubo are demonstrated to contribute to global cooling through the injection of solar energy reflecting ash and other small particles.

...

261 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:30:47pm

Anyone know how many millions of tonnes of CO2 are normally in the atmosphere?

262 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:35:43pm

re: #256 marksstudio

Hey, that was funny.

Of course, in the time it took you to write that snarky post about how you don't have time to learn about the facts of global warming, you could have been reading a book about it and/or checking out one of the numerous websites with facts about the scientific evidence. And then you might not have embarrassed yourself by posting such a ridiculous canard as the long-debunked "volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans" bit.

263 marksstudio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:37:45pm

Volcanoes are very cool. Here's a money quote: Present-day carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from subaerial and submarine volcanoes are uncertain at the present time. Gerlach (1991) estimated a total global release of 3-4 x 10E12 mol/yr from volcanoes. While this is a conservative estimate, man-made (anthropogenic) CO2 emissions overwhelm this estimate by at least 150 times. How sure about that are they, and how can those claims be made when they don't know? Not that everything has to be 100% sure, but the scientific community concerned with AGW is circling the wagons. Me thinks they doth protest too much.

http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/education/gases/man.html

They, them, those who we look to don't know, and try not to let on that they know they don't know until we know they don't know. This is that moment. Everyone, to a person, likes to know about what they do with some degree of certainty. It's human nature. It's territorial to not allow anyone to see your code, or your sources. That is not higher order thinking, being territorial. That brings much into question, does it not?
Several ways to look at this multiplicity of chemicals released in unknown quantities. Particulate matter blocks or reflects the Sun's rays, leading to lower temperatures. It's not just CO2. This is also interesting:

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Volcanic_gases.html
And this:
http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/index.php

A virtual firehose of information out there.

264 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:44:36pm

re: #263 marksstudio

I can't make sense of your post. All the claims, conjecture and rethorical questions really take away from the message. Would you mind stating your opinion a bit clearer?

265 marksstudio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:48:20pm

Not embarrassed by any means.

Not claiming to have all the facts when the scientists in question don't have all the facts and are even afraid to be questioned about it.

The science is most definitely not all in.

The surety of 'warmers' is frightening. Believe in totality, change life expectations for emerging countries, change the standard of living worldwide, lessen opportunities for people working their way up through schools, or apprenticeships, give control as to what can be manufactured and what cannot be to a governmental body with people at the helm who have never had to get their hands dirty...yeah, I wanna sign on for that.

No worries though, when the youth of today sees their future constrained by a bureaucracy that stifles innovation, (like you think this won't?) they will rise up and that will be the end of that.

Or not.

266 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:49:35pm

re: #265 marksstudio

Not embarrassed by any means.

I didn't think you would be, actually. That would take some actual knowledge of the subject instead of kneejerk reactionary denial.

267 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:57:49pm

re: #265 marksstudio

lessen opportunities for people working their way up through schools, or apprenticeships

You're a bit of a nut, aren't you?

I kind of like your stream of consciousness political poetry though. Truth to power, daddy-o!

268 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:04:24pm

I keep seeing the uncertainty meme being thrown about by a lot of people. That was actually created by Luntz Research Companies or Frank Luntz who was a Republican consultant. Think of it as the Pseudo-Eco Bullshit Manifesto which has been duplicated and copied to near Biblical proportions by deniers over the years.

That is me [Frank Luntz], and that was written -- this discussion of global warming and climate change is something I've been involved in since 1995. ... And back [in] '97, '98, the science was uncertain. You had a lot of people on one side, but you had a lot of people on the other as well. My understanding and my responsibility back then was to communicate the way things actually were rather than to have it politicized in one way or the other.

You can find the Luntz Memo here.

Frank Luntz has since reversed his position on AGW.

269 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:08:25pm

From said memo:

"The scientific debate is closing [against us] but not yet closed. There is still a window of opportunity to challenge the science," Mr Luntz writes in the memo, obtained by the Environmental Working Group, a Washington-based campaigning organisation.

"Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly.

"Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate."

There it is in one sentence:

"Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate."

270 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:14:32pm

One of the biggest BS campaigns ever undertaken. This one was produced by Western Fuels Association:

The Greening of Planet Earth (1992)

What effect does the burning of fossil fuels and the resulting emission of carbon dioxide (CO2) have on the earth's biosphere? This question is posed to a number of leading scientists in The Greening of Planet Earth, an enlightening documentary that examines one of the most misunderstood environmental phenomena of the modern age. The Greening of Planet Earth examines the role that CO2 plays as one of nature's basic building blocks of life in the process of photosynthesis and the evolution of the earth's biosphere. Evidence is presented to show how current CO2 levels, which are 30 percent higher than in the pre-industrial era, have greatly enhanced the growth of trees and other plants. Results from controlled studies show how a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere, which is expected to occur over the next century, will increase crop yields by 30 to 40 percent, double the water-use efficiency of most of the earth's vegetation and possibly triple the productivity of forests. The impact and implications of such change are far-reaching.

271 marksstudio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:15:40pm

Well Charles, I am just a simple carpenter with a simplistic mindset. Built enough projects designed by very smart people that ended up being saved by a simple carpenter. One who knows a dodge when one sees it.
Simple enough to admit when I am wrong and don't have all the facts. A quality that could certainly be well applied amongst people who should know better, and claim to.

It doesn't matter how many times it is said, how many articles are written, how many insults are thrown ( I remain unembarrassed ) how many 'peer reviewed' articles are submitted to just the 'right' journals, the Science Is Not All In At This Time. And really, nobody can say with any degree of certainty that the science is all in. In fact, when you look at the uncertainty of the authors of the links in the previous posts and internet wide, it is revealing that what is not known outweighs what is known.

Tree rings. Yes, a carpenter knows about tree rings. On that I can speak with surety: Bark side down. There.

272 cenotaphium  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:18:28pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Frank Luntz has since reversed his position on AGW.

This is the problem with the memetic, factoid nature of disinformation though, its origin doesn't really matter once the seed is planted. Even things written in jest are quote mined and polished up to be held as truth. And even if the disinformation is shown to be wrong, even if the correction starts to spead, the bad information continues to circle and the confusion is held up as evidence of uncertainty.

So what do you do to combat it?

You have the common political smear against smear tactic. Which ultimately reduces everything to the same muddled soup of half-truths and cynicism.
You have the stoic tactic, trying to refute bogus claims at every turn, hoping that somehow the tide will change and you'll be left looking like a rock of certainty.
You could ignore the disinformation, but then you end up with the birth certificate problem. Nothing you give is proof enough, and everytime to dismiss it, the "conspiracy" grows.

I don't really see a good option among these. Is there one? Or is it just a choice of the least bad?

273 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:26:17pm

re: #272 cenotaphium

The only counter attack to disinformation I can think of is a campaign of correct the information. My first inclination is to think "this is the way the game is played" so either ignore it to a certain extent or combat it with an attack campaign. This can lead towards negative campaigning.

One light of hope is that fact checking seems to have come in vogue these days. Perhaps started by Factcheck itself but it has taken hold with the television and print mediums as well as government and private organizations.

That is the best route I think. To set the record straight from the distortion of industry group media campaigns. Fact check and make it public.

Today, after looking through some of the White House records and industry campaigns I have come to the conclusion that the deniers have a lot to answer for. They claim that this CRU news is an outrage and a "smoking gun" but for whatever becomes of this what the deniers have done now and in the past pales in comparison to what went on even up to the Executive Branch.

274 AJStrata  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:30:56pm

Good Catch Charles. Looks like a combination of bad reporting and hyperventilating by some in the skeptics' camp. You confirmed my suspicions, and I duly credited you. Hope you don't take the 'surprise source' the wrong way, still fighting my readers who think you are the anti-Christ incarnate.

275 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:41:51pm

re: #271 marksstudio

It doesn't matter how many times it is said, how many articles are written, how many insults are thrown ( I remain unembarrassed ) how many 'peer reviewed' articles are submitted to just the 'right' journals, the Science Is Not All In At This Time. And really, nobody can say with any degree of certainty that the science is all in. In fact, when you look at the uncertainty of the authors of the links in the previous posts and internet wide, it is revealing that what is not known outweighs what is known.

Nobody but anyone ignorant of science would ever say that the science is all in, on anything.

276 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:52:25pm

re: #224 austin_blue

Start with these guys:

[Link: home.comcast.net...]

then check out coal companies. Power generators, &c, &c.

I looked at that, and it seems to be a site by someone with an ax to grind against Exxon generally. I don't know how to read it regarding anti AGW arguments.

My problem with this stance is that aside from not having seen solid evidence of such an industry bias, I have trouble understanding what they would gain from it anyway.

Coal companies are not going to be shut down. That is the largest source of energy we have and if the power plants have to be redesigned to put out less CO2, they will still be burning coal. The same principle applies to all others in the power generation business, including oil companies.

277 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:57:59pm
278 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:10:18pm
279 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:30:33pm

A couple of quick hits from shills.

Bye now!

280 b_snark  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:36:37pm

re: #93 Andrew X

Freetoken -
There is an imperative out there that is every bit as powerful as greed, and that is the statist narrative that gives a great many people (particularily who have abandoned religious faith) a meaning and purose to their lives. And all too often that purpose is to "fix the world" at the expense of a great many others who simply do not see the world as they do.

What nonsense. Pop psychology mixed with denialism, a bad combination.

281 a marine mom  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:59:00pm

re: #175 austin_blue

Because stuff like this makes you crazy?

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

Oh heck no! Debating is on of the best ways to learn.

/Sorry for not replying sooner.

282 b_snark  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:13:52pm

When the hell did scientific debate start including non-scientists in the blogosphere? Should we also debate the BB and quantum tunneling with the same people?

The debate continues in the same venues it has since science became formalized, in the journals, conferences and personal communication. You want to debate, get some pertinent education, write some original papers and/or reviews of others and attend a few gatherings where other scientists put you over the grill and baste your silly ass.

283 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:24:46pm

re: #132 freetoken

What "cooling trend"?

Mea Culpa

I was remembering reading about a study I thought was abo ut a year ago. Sorry it's taken so long to get back, but I've had to dosome digging and reading after (literally) replacing the kitchen sink. Turns out that the study I was remembering was the one in Nature from May 08 by a group of German scientists, Keenlyside et al, [Link: www.nature.com...] . After pulling the string, I found multiple sites that poked holes in this study.

My bad for not re-verifying my source before posting.

284 joest1973  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:46:57pm

The anti-AGW group is funded by "big energy and big tobacco" and Michael Mann and the Penn State Institutes of Energy and the Environment is funded by the Dept. of Energy and GE. I am a Pitt engineering grad but I know enough about Penn State to say that PSIEE is too big to fail. Even if the data was out there to question climate change they have too much research funding riding on the subject.

285 wally cleaver  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:51:21pm

No data was destroyed eh. From the TimesOnLine -

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

286 Joe in Australia  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:15:50pm

With respect, Charles, I think you need to separate your views on climate change from your opinion of the CRU. What the CRU did was inexcusable. The original data may well survive (and I very much hope it has) but the link between the CRU's data and its source has been broken. This does not mean that the changes were incorrect - it is obvious that you cannot connect different series of measurements without some alteration - but without the original data or a record of changes we are relying upon the editor's opinion, not on the data itself.

I wish it were not necessary to say this, but I am not a "denier". The CRU's conclusions are probably right. But as a matter of science they have let the team down. The methodology revealed by the leaked emails is distressing; it looks as though they didn't have confidence in at least some of their own work. By discarding the original data they have squandered their effort in gathering the disparate sources. Subsequent researchers will now have to repeat the CRU's work - what a waste! Their efforts to conceal data gathered at public expense are shocking and were perhaps illegal.

As I said before, the CRU's conclusions are probably right. None the less, the researchers' behavior was wrong and it makes their conclusions less robust than they might have been. The fact that I want people to take global warming seriously should not make me excuse their actions.

287 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:50:29pm

re: #285 wally cleaver

No data was destroyed eh. From the TimesOnLine -

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

Try reading what I posted. For Pete's sake.

288 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:55:01pm

The sleepers awake. Again.

wally cleaver
Registered since: Jan 3, 2008 at 11:16 am
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

289 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:04:25pm

re: #286 Joe in Australia

While you can quibble with the data handling (the original data is still available) and more, this approach sounds more like the kind of attack the kennedy conspiracy theorists would make. None of this really undermines the data from the trends we can see from obvious sources. From ice cores to ice melt, the CO2 change is undeniable. The warming is real with all the expected wiggles along the way.

290 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:36pm

re: #286 Joe in Australia

By discarding the original data they have squandered their effort in gathering the disparate sources.

They did not "discard the original data." The original data is still available to anyone who requests it from the NOAA, and there's nothing to prevent anyone with the proper skills from comparing that data to the CRU's adjusted results.

Their efforts to conceal data gathered at public expense are shocking and were perhaps illegal.

There were NO efforts to "conceal data." There is ONE email in which Phil Jones says he would delete files before turning them over to deniers for them to cherry-pick, but NO DATA WAS DELETED as a result. Phil Jones was just mouthing off on a private email list. He did not take any actions that were illegal.

It's incredibly frustrating to have to keep repeating this over and over and over. I'm starting to get even more sympathy for what the CRU scientists go through, dealing with a constant stream of distortions and falsehoods.

291 Joe in Australia  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:46pm

re: #290 Charles

They did not "discard the original data." The original data is still available to anyone who requests it from the NOAA ...

The data ultimately comes from many sources. I was not aware that the CRU's proximate source was the NOAA. Are you sure about this?

In any event, someone wishing to replicate their results would need to acquire that original data and then apply the CRU's corrections. The leaked files (particularly the "HARRY_READ_ME.txt") show that the correction process was chaotic, poorly documented, and tended to be self-confirming. This was very bad science; the best that can be said for it is that presumably the better data would tend to overwrite the worse data. But it doesn't look good.

There were NO efforts to "conceal data."

Well, yes there was. That's what the whole FOI battle was about. And it turns out that the series corrections which were absolutely fundamental to their results were
not published, and the only reason we know about them is because of the leaks.

It's incredibly frustrating to have to keep repeating this over and over and over. I'm starting to get even more sympathy for what the CRU scientists go through, dealing with a constant stream of distortions and falsehoods.

I think we're arguing past each other to some extent. You're defending them against charges that I haven't made, and that I agree should not be made.

292 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 4:38:42am

Sure, it is incorrect to suggest that the CRU "destroyed" original raw data, they destroyed SOME of the copies of that raw data they had received from elsewhere.

But there is no doubt that they were very obstructive in releasing their own data, and it looks as though they did not take much effort to obtain permission to release data that was "proprietary" - the UK Met Office is now going to have to do that.

Also, I can't see how anyone could doubt that the CRU and others have tried over the years to limit proper peer review.

But by far the most serious stuff that appears from the CRU leak is the Harry's File stuff. It is argued that the original hockey-stick stuff was the result of raw data being "adjusted" by programmes that actually gave a hockey-stick result even if random numbers were fed into the model.

The CRU has refused to release its own programme code that was used to adjust the data they worked on. That in itself is bad enough, it prevents any checks of reproducability. Now it appears that their programmes were a complete tangle.

And it is notable that the actions now announced by the University of East Anglia refer only to making raw data available - NOT to making the programming available.

If that is the case - there will still be no full transparency.

Meanwhile there are suggestions over here that the "review" intended to be set up by the University of East Anglia might be chaired by Martin Rees. That would be a travesty - Rees is entirely in the AGW camp.

293 pyrodoctor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 4:54:22am

re: #173 Charles

The raw data was not "dumped." The raw data still exists, and there's nothing to stop anyone from requesting the data from NOAA and running comparisons between that data and the CRU's processed data. Nothing is hidden, nothing was destroyed, and there's nothing dishonest about this in the slightest.

I agree with you about nothing being destroyed. The raw data still exist. However, I strongly disagree with you about nothing being hidden. The very fact that someone would have to go hunt down all the raw data again before they could even reconstruct the massaged data set that CRU used for their analysis REEKS of dishonesty. It is essentially telling the world that in order to check their calculations, you have to go on your own literature search and data hunt, which CRU spent years compiling.

When they talk about 5% of the raw data being lost, that doesn't sound like much, but if the raw data that were lost were critical to the conclusions of the research then it may be a lot.

The CRU work in particular, but the AGW work in general should be subjected to an independent QA audit (if there is any way to find an independent scientist to do the audit). I'm not saying their data and research are crap. But given their questionable data management practices, their undermining of the peer review process, and the economic and social implications of the results of their research, I think we ought to be damn sure they are right.

294 avspatti  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:14:50am

Scientists throwing away raw data - any raw data- goes against everything scientific research is supposed to stand for. There is no way to spin this to look like an honest procedure. By throwing away their data, these scientists have made it impossible for other researchers to check and verify their work. Science is not supposed to be about taking research on faith; it is about repeatable, verifiable findings. These people deserve all the ridicule and skepticism they are receiving.

295 predator_intelligence  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:42:47am

Here are the problems I have.

Over the life of our planet we know the following:

- The planet has been much hotter vs today and the planet has been much colder vs today.
- As such we know that it is normal for the planet to vary in temperature
- We also know that during periods when it was much warmer and much cooler those periods were not associated with mass extinctions, etc. The planet did just fine.

So we are left with the following questions.

If it is normal that the planet changes temperatures, why are we concerned now that it is changing again?

If in the past these changes did not bring about catastrophe, why do we think that a change in temperature this time will?

If the planet is known to vary in temperature why do we think that this time it is NOT NORMAL but man made?

Since the normal state of the Earth is to change temps...how is it that we are 100% certain that this time it is different...IE not normal but man made?

And getting to the CRU if it is man made this time...and as a whole our governments are attempting to make massive changes...then the following is necessary.

- All raw data purporting to show man made warming must be available for scrutiny.
- All models used to show man made warming or make future predictions about the state of the planet in the future must be open to all scientists for verification.
- Science requires testing and validation. It seems that the process currently has not been open.

If the science is settled then I would imagine that those who believe so and have done the research would LOVE to show the full foundations of their work.

Yet over the years they have seem reluctant to do so.

Why?

If they are correct then their data will show it.

If they are unwilling to, then that would be a cause for concern.

296 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:02:26am

re: #294 avspatti

Scientists throwing away raw data - any raw data- goes against everything scientific research is supposed to stand for. There is no way to spin this to look like an honest procedure. By throwing away their data, these scientists have made it impossible for other researchers to check and verify their work. Science is not supposed to be about taking research on faith; it is about repeatable, verifiable findings. These people deserve all the ridicule and skepticism they are receiving.

NO DATA WAS THROWN AWAY.

All of the original data is still available from the NOAA. Is there some kind of epidemic of poor reading comprehension going around?

297 ExCamelJockey  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:49:16am

I'm curious as to specifically types of information was deleted (we're clear that the originals reside elsewhere)?

The raw data for the entire historical record of the world's mean, max and min surface temperatures only takes up 24 MB compressed on the NOAA web site. This could be stored on less than $50 worth of floppies ... even in the 1980's.

298 Wondering Aloud  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:03:33am

Predator above has largely hit the nail on the head. If it isn't reproducible it isn't science. The recent practice, especially in climate science, of not reporting or making available the raw data and the process by which it was modified has completely corrupted scientific method. If you don't know the method you can't reproduce it so it is by definition not science. The fact that papers are published in the supposedly scientific literature in which this practice is allowed does a great deal to discredit the entire field. Peer review has broken down completely and the effort to suppress opposition has made huge portions of the supposed science into simple rubbish.

I have had friendly correspondence over the years with at least one of the main culprits involved and I am saddened to see that by his involvement in this corruption of science he has destroyed, and rightly so, his scientific reputation.

There may still be folks here who want to spin this somehow, but, from a method standpoint everything they have published must now be treated as incorrect.

299 Wondering Aloud  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:04:46am

You do realize that this isn't even NOAA data we are talking about don't you?

300 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #298 Wondering Aloud

This is complete crap.

There are dozens of sources for raw data on the web. Nobody is "hiding" anything, and no raw data was destroyed.

If you want to go ahead and try to debunk the science of global warming by analyzing the raw data, go right ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

Here you go; start here:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Is that enough raw data for you, or are you still going to try to claim that it's being hidden by the evil scientists?

301 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:45:49pm

My understanding is that Prof Briffa's data is at the CRU in the UK, not elsewhere. As is his modelling. That is why the CRU were being asked for it for several years.

302 exelwood  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:51:20pm

Was the data dump due to a whistle blower going by FOI (cute)? Anyone have any further information on this aspect?

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

303 carnaby  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:57:25pm

Who needs to destroy data when you've got the worst code ever written to simulate the climate?

[Link: neuralnetwriter.cylo42.com...]

304 Wondering Aloud  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:01:16pm

Charles

There is none of the raw data in questions available at Real Climate. Absolutely none. Why on Earth would you link to that? I am a scientist, method is one of my main strengths and I have followed what they have had to say for years.

Your saying it is crap doesn't make it so. The CRU and Briffa data are not available and were not available for readers or reviewers of the original papers, much less on Real Climate; which was complicit in the entire scandal. Your claim otherwise is as you say "crap" why in the world would you tell such a ridiculous and easy to check untruth?

305 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:05:16pm

re: #304 Wondering Aloud

Charles

There is none of the raw data in questions available at Real Climate. Absolutely none. Why on Earth would you link to that? I am a scientist, method is one of my main strengths and I have followed what they have had to say for years.

Your saying it is crap doesn't make it so. The CRU and Briffa data are not available and were not available for readers or reviewers of the original papers, much less on Real Climate; which was complicit in the entire scandal. Your claim otherwise is as you say "crap" why in the world would you tell such a ridiculous and easy to check untruth?

You did not even look at the link! There are dozens of sources listed for raw data there.

306 predator_intelligence  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:34:32pm

Charles,

I think one of the things you point out is incorrect.

You indicate repeatedly that the information has not been dumped it is right there at the NOAA.

Well the problem with that statement is this:

- The CRU created a model using data. They do not have all of the raw data or any of it. Who knows. Lets assume they have most of it.

- You say hey check the NOAA its all there.

Well that is like someone saying I did a study on tax revenues using IRS data. However I lost my raw data...but go ahead and pull the IRS data. The problem with that is...what data was used from the IRS? All of it, some of it, etc?

What specific data was used? All of it, some of it? How can anyone cross reference the CRU results unless they specifically know which raw data was used and how. If we do not know what specifically was used, then you cannot replicate the results.

That is the problem with the lost CRU data and you saying hey just check the NOAA.

307 saik0max0r  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 10:35:22am

Charles,

Frankly your position on this is baffling. Santer et. al. have admitted to destroying/losing/not finding data. Phil Jones, in response to a FOIA request, also admitted to destroying data to "save space". You'll note that his story now changes in light of the public release of the CRU's code and email. The only reason to do this is to engage in damage control and deception.

References in the newly released code also highlight areas where data was lost, far beyond what Phil Jone's is willing to admit under FOIA requirements.

308 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 10:16:59pm

re: #307 saik0max0r

Charles,

Frankly your position on this is baffling. Santer et. al. have admitted to destroying/losing/not finding data. Phil Jones, in response to a FOIA request, also admitted to destroying data to "save space". You'll note that his story now changes in light of the public release of the CRU's code and email. The only reason to do this is to engage in damage control and deception.

References in the newly released code also highlight areas where data was lost, far beyond what Phil Jone's is willing to admit under FOIA requirements.

This is absolutely, completely, 100% false.

309 ChicagoJohn  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 11:25:53pm

Charles,

Part of why I started reading your website was your ability to scientifically pull apart something that didn't look right to you. (in this case, a fax about GWB).

This is what the CRU wrote:
“Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.”

Why on earth would any science-based organization not want to have the original data on hand? This is a common sense issue with me. The data storage issue is poppycock, and you, as a computer person, should realize that more then anyone. Once they had the information on magnetic tape, archived, why would they decide that the ORIGINAL DATA was too much to hold onto? Can you think of any scientist doing that?


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