Huckabee Granted Clemency to Serial Rapist

US News • Views: 19,652

Mike Huckabee is in big political trouble tonight, as the story breaks that he granted clemency to the man suspected of murdering four police officers.

Maurice Clemmons, the 37-year-old Tacoma man being sought for questioning in the killing of four Lakewood police officers this morning, has a long criminal record punctuated by violence, erratic behavior and concerns about his mental health.

Nine years ago, then-Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee granted clemency to Clemmons, commuting his lengthy prison sentence over the protestations of prosecutors.

“This is the day I’ve been dreading for a long time,” Larry Jegley, prosecuting attorney for Arkansas’ Pulaski County said Sunday night when informed that Clemmons was being sought in connection to the killings.

Read the article linked above; this guy is seriously, obviously deranged. You have to wonder why Huckabee would grant clemency to someone like this, despite strenuous objections from prosecutors.

One possibility: Huckabee is a fanatical fundamentalist. Was it because Clemmons pretended to “get religion” in order for his sentence to be reduced?

UPDATE at 11/29/09 8:38:26 pm:

Huckabee is blaming it on “the criminal justice system,” and taking no responsibility for granting the suspected killer clemency.

“The senseless and savage execution of police officers in Washington State has saddened the nation, and early reports indicate that a person of interest is a repeat offender who once lived in Arkansas and was wanted on outstanding warrants here and Washington State. The murder of any individual is a profound tragedy, but the murder of a police officer is the worst of all murders in that it is an assault on every citizen and the laws we live within.

Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State. He was recommended for and received a commutation of his original sentence from 1990. This commutation making him parole eligible and was paroled by the parole board once they determined he met the conditions at that time. He was arrested later for parole violation and taken back to prison to serve his full term, but prosecutors dropped the charges that would have held him. It appears that he has continued to have a string of criminal and psychotic behavior but was not kept incarcerated by either state. This is a horrible and tragic event and if found and convicted the offender should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Our thoughts and prayers are and should be with the families of those honorable, brave, and heroic police officers.”

UPDATE at 11/29/09 8:46:27 pm:

This is not the first case in which Huckabee granted clemency to a criminal who went right back to a life of crime; in 1996 he granted clemency to serial rapist Wayne Dumond: Dumond case revisited.

In an effort to stem the political fallout, Huckabee and his staff agreed to meet for the first time with Dumond’s victim, Ashley Stevens, her family, and Fletcher Long, the prosecuting attorney who sent Dumond to prison. In interviews, both Walter “Stevie” Stevens, Ashley’s father, and Long both said they came away frustrated that Huckabee knew so few specifics about the case.

“He [Huckabee] kept insisting that there was DNA evidence that has since exonerated Dumond, when that very much wasn’t the case,” recalled Long. “No matter that that wasn’t true … we couldn’t seem to say or do anything to disabuse him of that notion.”

In fact, there had never been any DNA testing in the Ashley Stevens case.

The state official who advised Huckabee on the Dumond case confirmed that the governor knew very little about Ashley Stevens’ case:

“I don’t believe that he had access to, or read, the law enforcement records or parole commission’s files — even by then,” the official said. “He already seemed to have made up his mind, and his knowledge of the case appeared to be limited to a large degree as to what people had told him, what Jay Cole had told him, and what he had read in the New York Post.”

Jay Cole, like Huckabee, is a Baptist minister, pastor for the Mission Fellowship Bible Church in Fayetteville and a close friend of the governor and his wife. On the ultra-conservative radio program he hosts, Cole has championed the cause of Wayne Dumond for more than a decade.

Cole has repeatedly claimed that Dumond’s various travails are the result of Ashley Stevens’ distant relationship to Bill Clinton.

The governor was also apparently relying on information he got from Steve Dunleavy, first as a correspondent for the tabloid television show “A Current Affair” and later as a columnist for the New York Post.

Much of what Dunleavy has written about the Dumond saga has been either unverified or is demonstrably untrue. Dunleavy has all but accused Ashley Stevens of having fabricated her rape, derisively referring to her in one column as a “so-called victim,” and brusquely asserting in another, “That rape never happened.”

The columnist wrote that Dumond was a “Vietnam veteran with no record” when in fact he did have a criminal record. He claimed there existed DNA evidence by “one of the most respected DNA experts in the country” to exonerate Dumond, even though there was no such evidence. He wrote that Bill Clinton had personally intervened to keep Dumond in prison, even though Clinton had recused himself in 1990 from any involvement in the case because of his distant relationship with Stevens.

“The problem with the governor is that he listens to Jay Cole and reads Steve Dunleavy and believes them … without doing other substantative work,” the state official said.

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919 comments
1 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:43:18pm

Not. Good. At. All.

2 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:44:12pm
You have to wonder why Huckabee would grant clemency to someone like this.

One possibility: Huckabee is a fanatical fundamentalist. Was it because Clemmons pretended to “get religion” in order for his sentence to be reduced?

The article says it was because of his age...

Clemmons served 11 years before being released.

News accounts say Huckabee then commuted Clemmons' sentence, citing Clemmons' young age at the time the crimes were committed.

3 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:44:21pm

A good story for context.. Huckabee pardons under scrutiny.

"It seems to be true at least anecdotally that if a minister is involved, (Huckabee) seems likely to grant clemency," prosecutor Robert Herzfeld said in 2004 after successfully battling the then-governor over the release of a killer.
4 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:44:34pm
Clemmons had been in jail in Pierce County for the past several months on a pending charge of second-degree rape of a child.

He was released from custody just six days ago, even though he was wanted on a fugitive warrant out of Arkansas and was staring at eight felony charges in all out of Washington state.

A man on a mission, no doubt.

5 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:46:24pm
You have to wonder why Huckabee would grant clemency to someone like this.

One possibility: Huckabee is a fanatical fundamentalist. Was it because Clemmons pretended to “get religion” in order for his sentence to be reduced?

I would sooner think that a fundamentalist would keep this guy behind bars no matter how much "religion" he got.

6 kobra_55  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:46:30pm

This is pretty messed up. It's sad to see that such a heinous crime could have been so easily prevented.

7 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:46:37pm

"damage joy"

8 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:46:45pm

re: #3 Mich-again

A good story for context.. Huckabee pardons under scrutiny.

This guy came up during the primaries if I remember correctly.

9 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:47:24pm

re: #7 Ojoe

i.e. damage on Huckabee, lest I be misinterpreted.

10 brookly red  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:47:43pm

maybe there will be an upside to this (but not for Huck)... maybe just maybe this will help keep dangerous criminals locked up even if it's for the wrong reason.

11 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:48:16pm

Ruh-roh...

Seriously, if Huckabee was pardoning inmates primarily on the testimony of religious folks that had been counseling the inmate, while discounting the inmates' rap sheets and warnings from prosecutors, his future political ambitions should be stomped on and ground into a fine powder.

/Huckabee has totally showed his ass here...

12 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:48:24pm

Just without words... there are NINE kids without a parent tonight...

I look forward as to why Pierce County released him last week.

13 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:48:32pm

A good example of mercy to the guilty being cruelty to the innocent.

14 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:48:55pm

Some facts on Huckabee: Pardoned Wayne Dumond, serial rapist.

And he offers faith-based pardons, as the AP documented a while ago:

As the AP reports, Governor Huckabee didn't merely intervene to help past and future felons for political purposes. Huckabee used his pardon power at an unprecedented rate (1,033 times over 10 ½ years, compared to 507 times over the 17 plus years of Bill Clinton, Frank White and Jim Guy Tucker). And as case after case shows, Huckabee was quick to offer clemency when his fellow ministers requested it.

The AP documented numerous cases of Huckabee's faith, friends and family plan for gubernatorial pardons:

Donald W. Clark, convicted of theft. Huckabee's pastor recommended leniency for Clark, whose stepmother worked on Huckabee's gubernatorial staff.

Robert A. Arnold Jr., who was convicted of killing his father-in-law. Arnold's father, a former mayor of Hope, Huckabee's hometown, said he was a casual friend of the governor.

A pastor who promoted Huckabee among blacks urged the governor to grant clemency to John Henry Claiborne, who was sentenced to 100 years for a 1994 armed robbery, according to a 2004 report in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Huckabee made Claiborne eligible for parole after receiving a letter from the Rev. Charles Williams, who told the newspaper he had helped win "many, many" clemencies from Huckabee.

Whitewater figure David Hale, a government witness in the trial that forced Gov. Jim Guy Tucker's resignation and let Huckabee ascend to the office, was pardoned after being sentenced to 21 days in a state insurance case. Huckabee complained it would cost too much to hold him. The price tag: $1,200.

As prosecutor Robert Herzfeld said in 2004, "It seems to be true at least anecdotally that if a minister is involved, (Huckabee) seems likely to grant clemency."


Can't dig up the Ap link, but found this: [Link: www.perrspectives.com...]

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:49:17pm

re: #5 Gang of One

I would sooner think that a fundamentalist would keep this guy behind bars no matter how much "religion" he got.

Please look up the story of James Dobson and Ted Bundy.

16 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:49:33pm

God bless the police who were killed and their families.

I have no words. We have jails for a reason. Some people are just evil.

17 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:49:40pm
18 kobra_55  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:50:37pm

re: #14 iceweasel

Imagine the outrage if Huckabee was a Muslim or even a Buddhist or something and he had pardoned this guy because he converted to whatever religion Huckabee was. There is a double standard in religious fundamentalism.

19 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:51:32pm

Fundamentalists by nature do not want to consider the big picture, which in this case would have been to consider future possible victims of M. Clemmons, and thus keep him in the slammer.

20 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:51:53pm

What is the damage of some people? Huckabee lets people go for Christ. The left wanted to spare Tookie because he wrote a children's book.

Some people are JUST EVIL! What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

21 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:52:16pm

re: #14 iceweasel

Other than that this isn't the first screw-up regarding Huckabee's use of pardons, the other thing that comes to mind is that Washington state does not have the death penalty. Which means this cop-killing scumbag will be warehoused at taxpayer expense until he dies.

22 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:52:49pm

And this story from Arkansas Leader.. Prosecutors seek more openness on pardons

When you talk to prosecutors around the state, many of them will tell you they're unhappy that Gov. Huckabee pardons criminals without letting law-enforcement officials or victims' families know why he's doing it, as he's required by law.
___ "He doesn't take giving clemency very seriously," complains Saline County Prosecuting Attorney Robert Herzfeld, who will push for new legislation next year to make the clemency process less secretive.

I think this guy might have been a bass player.

In 1974, Witham and a cousin beat their victim to death out in the woods with a lead pipe – and beat him repeatedly so that the victim's face was smashed almost beyond recognition. "His entire face was gone," the prosecutor says. He accuses Witham of lying on his clemency petition to make it seem that he had killed his victim in "a barroom brawl" – as if that had made the crime less awful...

Herzfeld says Witham, who plays in the prison band, hid five previous felonies from his clemency application and had threatened the previous sheriff.

23 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:08pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

We have a Death Penalty

24 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:14pm

Christian-bashers think "deathbed confessions" make a big difference.

They may. But not with us. With God.

Real Christians take circumstances into account and leave the final judgment up to Him.

Hucksters like Huckabee pick and choose.

25 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:17pm
26 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:26pm

re: #17 SeaMonkey

Just piss off. I'm finished putting up with people like you.

27 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:45pm

re: #20 acwgusa

Yes, why is that hard to understand?

Because, I think, some people both lead sheltered lives and do not read history.

28 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:53:59pm

re: #18 kobra_55

Imagine the outrage if Huckabee was a Muslim or even a Buddhist or something and he had pardoned this guy because he converted to whatever religion Huckabee was. There is a double standard in religious fundamentalism.

Absolutely.

29 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:54:00pm

re: #17 SeaMonkey

GAZE

30 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:55:18pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Other than that this isn't the first screw-up regarding Huckabee's use of pardons, the other thing that comes to mind is that Washington state does not have the death penalty. Which means this cop-killing scumbag will be warehoused at taxpayer expense until he dies.

Yes it does, the choice is between lethal injection and hanging. It is easy to assume they don't because Gary Ridgeway was able to bargain with the location of his many victims.

31 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:55:54pm

re: #26 Charles

I'll get the grill going. Seamonkey will be well done in about 25 minutes. It was a fairly young troll, some it won't take too long to roast.

32 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:08pm

re: #20 acwgusa

Some people are JUST EVIL! What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

Some people don't see the world in this context. They think men can be reformed, and it is the ideal to be merciful to all.

33 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:12pm

re: #17 SeaMonkey

Sod off, swampy...do you not see the problem with this situation with Huckabee and his pardons?

/if not, you're a f**king idiot...

(Charles, please delete my #25 if you feel it necessary...I quoted the troll)

34 brookly red  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:16pm

how many states have 3 time loser laws?

35 jaunte  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:16pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

This seamonkey is no more. He has ceased to be.

36 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:45pm

re: #23 Ericus58

re: #30 goddamnedfrank

Thanks for the clarification, guys. I'll be right back.

37 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:56:53pm

It's definitely an epic failure of judgment on Huckabee's part to have pardoned this guy despite the fact that prosecutors warned him not to.

However, the failures go much deeper than that - and while they don't absolve Huckabee, it shows that law enforcement and the courts let down the people of both Washington and Arkansas.

But for Huckabee commuting the sentences, Clemmons would not have been released from prison. That he was released from prison allowed him to go on and commit crimes in both Arkansas and Washington. In fact, he was in a Washington jail and was released just days before the shootings today. That's right - he was in jail but got released on bail despite awaiting adjudication on a child rape charge.

Why was bail granted? This guy was a recidivist and a threat to the public safety. There was nothing to indicate any changed behavior. Yet, Huckabee granted the original commutation of sentence, and he had better explain why he did what he did.

38 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:57:30pm

re: #30 goddamnedfrank

You are correct. The choice was made for the many families involved to have closure. But it sure stuck in many folks craw

39 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:57:30pm

re: #34 brookly red

how many states have 3 time loser laws?

California

40 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:57:45pm

Reposted from previous thread: Pat Condell - 'Aggressive atheism'

41 brookly red  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:58:08pm

re: #39 HoosierHoops

Texas too? no?

42 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:58:37pm

re: #37 lawhawk

Yep. What was Washington State's excuse?

43 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:58:57pm

re: #41 brookly red

Texas too? no?

Not sure my friend...I'll check

44 armylaw  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

A good example of mercy to the guilty being cruelty to the innocent.

The Bible says something to that effect - "He who ​justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord" (Prov. 17:15). The Huckster has a lot to answer for, both before God and any potential voters. This has Willie Horton written all over it.

45 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:00:44pm

re: #43 HoosierHoops

Not sure my friend...I'll check

Twenty four states have enacted some form of habitual offender laws.

46 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:00:49pm

re: #37 lawhawk

And don't think that the Pierce County guys won't be looked at REAL HARD...

W T F ...

47 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:00:55pm

re: #44 armylaw

Indeed- the Dukakis of the right.

48 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:01:02pm

Down here in Texas we have a governor who is in trouble for not commuting a death sentence on a guy who was probably innocent of setting a house fire that killed his own children.

I know we will all tsk tsk over this issue with Huckabee but one of the political hazards of being a governor is that you actually have to make decisions that mean something. This is unlike Congress people who can always blame others.

49 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:01:05pm

With Huckabee as governor, a violent criminal doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how to "role-play" himself to clemency.

50 TheAntichrist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:01:23pm

Way to go Mikey! Will this be featured on your "The Huckabee Report" radio bit?

Nice on by Pierce County too, releasing someone with warrants. Colossal failure all around, now 4 dead.

51 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:02:01pm

re: #15 Charles

Please look up the story of James Dobson and Ted Bundy.

I hear you, Charles.

52 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:02:22pm

I'm going to have dinner with my wife now... and try to relax. Be Well everyone, take care - keep those families in your thoughts tonight.

53 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:03:16pm

I wonder an assassination of four black white cops by a white black guy qualify as a hate crime?

My guess is... uh...that would be a big fat NO.

54 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:04:13pm

re: #42 solomonpanting

Well, good question. It would start first with the judge who allowed bail in Washington State.

55 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:04:32pm

Some more ties between Huxster clemency and a pastor's recommendation.

- Donald W. Clark, convicted of theft. Huckabee's pastor recommended leniency for Clark, whose stepmother worked on Huckabee's gubernatorial staff.

- A pastor who promoted Huckabee among blacks urged the governor to grant clemency to John Henry Claiborne, who was sentenced to 100 years for a 1994 armed robbery, according to a 2004 report in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Huckabee made Claiborne eligible for parole after receiving a letter from the Rev. Charles Williams, who told the newspaper he had helped win "many, many" clemencies from Huckabee.

56 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:05:46pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

WTF?!?!?

What does your "hypothetical" have to do with the facts of what really happened in the case?

/it just sounds like a dogwhistle to me...

57 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:05:53pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Some people don't see the world in this context. They think men can be reformed, and it is the ideal to be merciful to all.

Those people are fools. Appeasement ideas like restorative justice come from deluded nitwits like those. Mercy and compassion is needed for the victim.

58 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:06:24pm

Maybe it's because I'm pissed at most everything else in my life, but I don't see anything involving religion in the original link?

59 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:06:41pm

Huckabee apparently thought that the Clemmons didn't receive effective counsel, despite the Arkansas S.Ct. ruling that he did. That would be the only reason, but it ignores Clemmons background and multiple crimes involved.

60 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:06:51pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

I wonder an assassination of four black white cops by a white black guy qualify as a hate crime?

My guess is... uh...that would be a big fat NO.

My guess is that it is four dead cops period. No need to race bait on a story this horrible.

61 kobra_55  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:06:52pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

What about this leads you to believe that race played any role at all? Do you think if he had walked in there and the cops had been black he would have put his gun away and ordered a coffee and a donut?

62 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:07:01pm

re: #39 HoosierHoops

California

I don't know that the 3 strikes law, has reduced crime at all.
I do know, that if the offender if facing a third strike, many seem to prefer "suicide" by cop.
I'll go look for some info on the crime stats.

63 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:07:13pm

America, where the bad guys are the victims...where does this stuff come from?

64 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:07:42pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

Oh brother. Pull the race card much?

You ever stop and think that he would have shot them all up regardless of their race and because they were all policemen? Or that he would have done so even if there was one black man in that group of cops?

65 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:08:31pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

Gaze.

66 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:09:07pm

re: #59 lawhawk

Huckabee apparently thought that the Clemmons didn't receive effective counsel, despite the Arkansas S.Ct. ruling that he did. That would be the only reason, but it ignores Clemmons background and multiple crimes involved.

That was the "official" reason, anyway. We're going to find out the real reason this week, I have no doubt.

Huckabee has screwed the pooch.

67 brookly red  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:09:37pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Oh brother. Pull the race card much?

You ever stop and think that he would have shot them all up regardless of their race and because they were all policemen? Or that he would have done so even if there was one black man in that group of cops?

Is it known yet if it was 4 random cops, or was at least one of them targeted?

68 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:10:08pm

Jesus Saves!

69 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:10:52pm

Just imagine the conversations going on among Huckabee and his advisers tonight.

70 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:11:06pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

"Hate Crimes" are conceptually problematic to begin with- but the broad brush with which you suggest that this otherwise-dubious legal distinction is only applied at the expense of "whites"- is problematic as well, and evidence of the type of attitude that led well-meaning people to create this questionable category of crime.

71 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:11:46pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

Oh, I left something out of my last reply to your post...

F**k off!

/WTH is wrong with people?

72 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:11:57pm

They know they have just this one night to get their story together, before the media feeding frenzy tomorrow.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

73 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:12:13pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

well some sort of down ding record...seven minutes to make the top of the bottom 10 list. We might knife each other silly over climate science but it is nice to see LGF'rs pound the snot out of racists comments.

74 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:12:20pm

re: #69 Charles

Just imagine the conversations going on among Huckabee and his advisers tonight.

"Don't give up the television show."

75 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:12:44pm

This case had nothing to do with Huckabee's religious views IMO. It has everything to do with his absolutely awful judgment here.

To be clear, Clemmons remains a person of interest in this case. He's not yet charged with a crime in this case, though that can change soon enough.

76 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:12:58pm

re: #69 Charles

Just imagine the conversations going on among Huckabee and his advisers tonight.

Huckabee and his attorneys!

77 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:13:03pm

re: #62 Floral Giraffe

I don't know that the 3 strikes law, has reduced crime at all.
I do know, that if the offender if facing a third strike, many seem to prefer "suicide" by cop.
I'll go look for some info on the crime stats.

You a California girl..Remember the anger over the Paulie Klaus case?
That lead to 3 strikes law...The law was applied unevenly..
People with 2 strikes stealing a pizza were given 25 years in Prison...
Thus desperation and higher violence upon the 3rd strike...Yes you are exactly correct

78 kobra_55  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:13:40pm

re: #72 Charles

Is it just me or could Sarah Palin have made it through this completely unscathed if she had done this as governor? Unfortunately for Huckabee he doesn't have her sort of...whatever it is she has.

79 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:13:55pm

re: #68 albusteve

Jesus Saves!

Allah passes, and Buddha shoots for the goal!

80 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:14:23pm

re: #78 kobra_55

Sarah Palin doesn't get through "completely unscathed" for anything.

81 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:14:44pm

I will hold off until this person is actually, at the very least, indited of this crime. According to witnesses, the perp was in his twenties. I smell a fish.

If he let him go, then he is a feeling moron. However, this is nothing new with the {{{feeling}}} crowd. The thought peeps would have fried the SOB.

82 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:14:56pm

re: #76 Floral Giraffe

Huckabee and his attorneys!

bad judgment maybe but no laws were broken...granting clemency as a governor is protected from civil action.

83 kobra_55  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #80 TheMatrix31

I don't mean she doesn't get scrutinized, just that the people who like her don't seem to care, and in the end they only like her more.

84 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:15:21pm

re: #78 kobra_55

Is it just me or could Sarah Palin have made it through this completely unscathed if she had done this as governor? Unfortunately for Huckabee he doesn't have her sort of...whatever it is she has.

No politician could make it through something like this unscathed. It's a career-destroyer.

According to some polls, Huckabee was the GOP front-runner for the 2012 elections.

Operative word: "was."

85 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:16:43pm

re: #77 HoosierHoops

You are a California girl...PIMF...Dang it!

86 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:16:50pm

re: #79 acwgusa

Allah passes, and Buddha shoots for the goal!

ha!...SCORE!

87 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:16:50pm

re: #84 Charles

No politician could make it through something like this unscathed. It's a career-destroyer.

According to some polls, Huckabee was the GOP front-runner for the 2012 elections.

Operative word: "was."

Hopefully, this completely annihilates any chance he had. How anyone can vote for anyone who wants to turn America into a theocracy is beyond me.

88 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:18:18pm

re: #84 Charles

No politician could make it through something like this unscathed. It's a career-destroyer.

According to some polls, Huckabee was the GOP front-runner for the 2012 elections.

Operative word: "was."

too bad he has to go down this way tho...but I hope people take notice of the implications

89 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

...qualify as a hate crime?

Isn't all crime a hate crime to some extent?

90 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:19:24pm

re: #73 Big Steve

well some sort of down ding record...seven minutes to make the top of the bottom 10 list. We might knife each other silly over climate science but it is nice to see LGF'rs pound the snot out of racists comments.

sheepdogess has nothing on annefrance (whose "magnum opus" was downdinged hundreds of times)...

91 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:19:27pm

re: #89 SteveC

Isn't all crime a hate crime to some extent?

Violent crime, perhaps. Crimes of passion? White-collar crime?

92 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:19:27pm

BTW, shouldn't the title of this article be "granted clemency" instead of pardoned?

93 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:20:09pm

re: #72 Charles

Hmm... quite likely it will go something like this:

I was misinformed by those who were providing me counsel and that I am deeply troubled that someone who was given a second chance to redeem themselves has gone on to commit further violence and murders.

But the way I see it, there's no one else to blame but Huckabee for the original commutation of the sentence. It was his final decision.

94 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:21:23pm

re: #77 HoosierHoops

3 strikes should have been 3 violent felonies. It has led to gunfights, and desperate pursuits. Just cycling violent felons through a few years and then release is also highly dangerous.

95 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:21:37pm

re: #91 Gang of One

Violent crime, perhaps. Crimes of passion? White-collar crime?


the whole hate crime thing is trumped up bullshit...buncha people sitting around trying to justify someone's homicidal behavior...it's all crapola

96 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:21:50pm

re: #89 SteveC

NO. Use your noggin.

97 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:22:04pm

Someone who experienced a true conversion would be so filled with remorse that they would WANT to remain in prison or even face execution.

There is a reason that prisons are called "penitentiaries."

98 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:22:11pm

re: #92 TheMatrix31

Seems a tiny difference given events.

99 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:22:44pm

re: #79 acwgusa

Allah passes, and Buddha shoots for the goal!

Quatzequatel with the block! Zeus grabs the loose ball and it's a 3 on 2 break the other way!

100 Stanghazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:23:07pm

Interesting how it took Atwater, et al to find/use Willie Horton against Dukakis, but now-a-days you don't need a political operative to find this stuff out, it's on the internet in minutes.

101 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:23:19pm

re: #98 Rightwingconspirator

Just for accuracy's sake I guess. I don't care either way.

102 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:23:54pm

re: #99 SteveC

Quatzequatel with the block! Zeus grabs the loose ball and it's a 3 on 2 break the other way!

Coach Moses calls time out...we'll be right back folks, stay tuned

103 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:24:06pm

re: #101 TheMatrix31

Got it.

104 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:24:30pm

re: #88 albusteve

too bad he has to go down this way tho...but I hope people take notice of the implications

I'm not shedding one damn tear for that huckster Huckabee...I'm glad he's getting his political comeuppance, but the cost of it (many lives destroyed or lost) makes me sick.

105 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:24:46pm

re: #102 albusteve

Coach Moses calls time out...we'll be right back folks, stay tuned

Throw the Hail Mary.

106 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:25:26pm

re: #102 albusteve

Coach Moses calls time out...we'll be right back folks, stay tuned

Will he be parting the Red Gatorade?

107 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:26:02pm

re: #106 acwgusa

Will he be parting the Red Gatorade?

Would that not be actually the Pearly Gatorades?

108 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:26:22pm

re: #102 albusteve

Who's coach Moses?

109 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:26:26pm

re: #104 talon_262

I'm not shedding one damn tear for that huckster Huckabee...I'm glad he's getting his political comeuppance, but the cost of it (many lives destroyed or lost) makes me sick.

Imagine the sorts of pardons he'd hand out as President! No, thanks.

110 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:26:46pm

re: #107 Gang of One

Would that not be actually the Pearly Gatorades?

That would make the Gatorade Frost, wouldn't it?

111 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:27:12pm

re: #106 acwgusa

Will he be parting the Red Gatorade?

As the team starts to dump it on his head in the postgame victory celebration...

;-P

112 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:27:29pm

re: #108 Sheepdogess

Who's coach Moses?

Good guy. Ask his buddy Noah.

113 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:28:24pm

re: #108 Sheepdogess

Who's coach Moses?

the guy with the long beard wearing the Aliens at the clock table...duh?

114 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:28:51pm

re: #102 albusteve

Coach Moses calls time out...we'll be right back folks, stay tuned

And with a timeout on the court, it's a great time to visit our concession stand!

115 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:28:57pm

re: #108 Sheepdogess

Who's coach Moses?

He's the guy standing in front of the press conference in those Israel Lite commercials.

116 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:30:02pm

Wow. If you read the whole article I linked above, it's blindingly obvious that this guy was a loose cannon and was going to kill someone. And he was obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way.

117 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:30:46pm

re: #115 Gang of One

He's the guy standing in front of the press conference in those Israel Lite commercials.

Don't you mean He'Brew.

118 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:31:04pm

re: #114 SteveC

And with a timeout on the court, it's a great time to visit our concession stand!

Try the Dead Sea Scones, and the Burning Bush Nachos with Red Sea-soning.

/oh, man, was that a bad pun.

119 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:31:30pm

re: #108 Sheepdogess

Who's coach Moses?

We got him from the Hebrew Leagues. He led the Jews to ten straight victories over the Egyptians.

120 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:31:54pm

re: #117 Alouette

Don't you mean He'Brew.

Either that or the Ale Mary.

121 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:32:18pm

re: #114 SteveC

And with a timeout on the court, it's a great time to visit our concession stand!

Let's go down to the lobby...

;-P

122 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:32:31pm

re: #69 Charles

Just imagine the conversations going on among Huckabee and his advisers tonight.

It's got to sound something like this:

123 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:32:54pm

re: #120 solomonpanting

Either that or the Ale Mary.

River Jordan brings the ball up the court...

124 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:33:14pm

re: #116 Charles

Wow. If you read the whole article I linked above, it's blindingly obvious that this guy was a loose cannon and was going to kill someone. And he was obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way.

Well, that should make it impossible for Huckabee to spin his way out of this. If Foxnews is smart (which they won't be) they'd make Huckabee go on the O'Reilly Factor and clear Bill to hammer Huck for the screwup. Most likely, Huckabee will make a Fox appearance, but all he'll get is softballs. Fools.

125 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:33:52pm

re: #123 albusteve

River Jordan brings the ball up the court...

... over to Jordan on the wing...

//Michael Jordan is a basketball god, ain't he?

126 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:33:55pm

This guy sounds like a total dangerous nutcase. From the link:

In another instance, Clemmons was accused of gathering his wife and young relatives around at 3 or 4 in the morning and having them all undress. He told them that families need to "be naked for at least 5 minutes on Sunday," a Pierce County sheriff's report says.

"The whole time Clemmons kept saying things like trust him, the world is going to end soon, and that he was Jesus," the report says.

As part of the child-rape investigation, the sheriff's office interviewed Clemmons' sister in May. She told them that "Maurice is not in his right mind and did not know how he could react when contacted by Law Enforcement," a sheriff's report says.

127 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:34:00pm

re: #116 Charles

Wow. If you read the whole article I linked above, it's blindingly obvious that this guy was a loose cannon and was going to kill someone. And he was obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way.

WTF was Huckabee thinking? Mind-boggling.

128 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:34:57pm

re: #127 Gang of One

WTF was Huckabee thinking? Mind-boggling.

Huckabee.

Thinking.

These two words do not go well together.

129 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:35:15pm

re: #125 SteveC

... over to Jordan on the wing...

//Michael Jordan is a basketball god, ain't he?

Just a load of Bull...

130 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:35:24pm

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

131 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:35:32pm

re: #123 albusteve

River Jordan brings the ball up the court...

And he's going airborne... and he slams!

132 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:35:53pm

re: #116 Charles

That is a very sad life history.
This guy was a mess.
Prayers for the families of his victims, and his family as well.

133 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:36:12pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

And he's going airborne... and he slams!

EZEKIA!

134 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:36:37pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

Where do you see political glee? People are commenting that Huckabee's career is over. Not gloating, just stating a fact.

135 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:37:46pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

No glee here. I'm sad that those officers were murder ed and I'm pissed that Huck pardoned the piece of filth who killed them. I will admit to being relieved that the Arkansas Dominionist is out of presidential contention for good.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:37:48pm

re: #5 Gang of One

I would sooner think that a fundamentalist would keep this guy behind bars no matter how much "religion" he got.

Jailhouse religion-getting is a genuinely weird topic in the annals of American crime and punishment. Some evangelical politicians really seem to feel that getting Jesus in your life should translate to having your crimes forgiven by the state as well. That can be a very, very bad idea, as we see this evening.

Of course, it can bite the other way. Many people were contemptuous of George W. Bush for not pardoning Karla Faye Tucker, and while there were other factors in there, what you heard a lot was that her religious life behind bars should sway him if he were a real evangelical.

137 arethusa  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:37:53pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Well, that should make it impossible for Huckabee to spin his way out of this. If Foxnews is smart (which they won't be) they'd make Huckabee go on the O'Reilly Factor and clear Bill to hammer Huck for the screwup. Most likely, Huckabee will make a Fox appearance, but all he'll get is softballs. Fools.

Or he could explain himself on his weekend Fox show. But I'm not holding my breath.

138 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:38:09pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

it's a matter of perspective...nobody denies the horror of good men going down like this

139 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:38:38pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

Where the Hell have you seen glee over this tragedy? Link please..
Shut up or put up

140 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:39:21pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

I see it as another case of misplaced compassion having horrendous consequences.

141 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:39:22pm

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

So is Mitt Romney.

142 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Jailhouse religion-getting is a genuinely weird topic in the annals of American crime and punishment. Some evangelical politicians really seem to feel that getting Jesus in your life should translate to having your crimes forgiven by the state as well. That can be a very, very bad idea, as we see this evening.

Of course, it can bite the other way. Many people were contemptuous of George W. Bush for not pardoning Karla Faye Tucker, and while there were other factors in there, what you heard a lot was that her religious life behind bars should sway him if he were a real evangelical.

Slightly OT, but apparently a Great-uncle-type relation was the Boston Strangler's priest in prison.

143 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:40:14pm
When Clemmons received the 60-year sentence, he was already serving 48 years on five felony convictions and facing up to 95 more years on charges of robbery, theft of property and possessing a handgun on school property. Records from Clemmons' sentencing described him as 5-foot-7 and 108 pounds. The crimes were committed when he was 17.

Clemmons served 11 years before being released.

News accounts say Huckabee commuted Clemmons' sentence, citing Clemmons' young age at the time the crimes were committed.

speechless

144 SteveC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:41:18pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

And he's going airborne... and he slams!

Hallelujah!

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:42:09pm

re: #18 kobra_55

Imagine the outrage if Huckabee was a Muslim or even a Buddhist or something and he had pardoned this guy because he converted to whatever religion Huckabee was. There is a double standard in religious fundamentalism.

Of course there is. No one recommends that a prisoner be released because they've gotten to be a real religious Wiccan.

146 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:42:17pm

As far as this sealing Huck's fate is concerned I'm not so certain. Does the Democratic Party have the spine to run Willie Horton ads? I dunno. And it's still three years away.

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:43:10pm

re: #20 acwgusa

What is the damage of some people? Huckabee lets people go for Christ. The left wanted to spare Tookie because he wrote a children's book.

Some people are JUST EVIL! What the hell is so hard to understand about that?

No, the left wanted to spare Tookie. The children's book was just an extra. (I taught at a school where one of his books was a class text. PLEASE don't remind me!)

148 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:43:20pm

re: #130 captdiggs

You know, it's sad to see political glee over a tragic murder of police officers.

Are you nuts?

Who exactly is "gleeful" about the murder of those police officers?

149 Bloodnok  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:43:56pm

re: #146 JasonA

As far as this sealing Huck's fate is concerned I'm not so certain. Does the Democratic Party have the spine to run Willie Horton ads? I dunno. And it's still three years away.

They won't need to run them. This will be all over the news. People will know about this without ads being run in 2-3 years. He wouldn't make it out of the first primaries if he bothered to run at all.

150 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:44:39pm

re: #146 JasonA

Good question. I hope so, but there are no promising (R)'s in sight that I can see/ am aware of.

151 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:44:49pm

re: #149 Bloodnok

They won't need to run them. This will be all over the news. People will know about this without ads being run in 2-3 years. He wouldn't make it out of the first primaries if he bothered to run at all.

Agree. Huckabee is TOAST. Well cooked, toast.

152 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:44:50pm

re: #143 funky chicken

speechless

And this:


Clemmons had been in jail in Pierce County for the past several months on a pending charge of second-degree rape of a child. He was released from custody just six days ago, even though was staring at seven additional felony charges in Washington state.

Clemmons posted $15,000 with a Chehalis company called Jail Sucks Bail Bonds. The bondsman, in turn, put up $150,000, securing Clemmons' release on the pending child-rape charge.

153 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:45:06pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course there is. No one recommends that a prisoner be released because they've gotten to be a real religious Wiccan.

so you are saying Wiccans even are less apt to fantasy than Christians?

155 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:45:50pm

Don't know how many years ago I posted it, but... I told ya so.
This is why I would never vote for Huckabee for national office, no matter his positions. He's done this before... this guy is not the only one.

156 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:46:41pm

re: #148 Charles

Are you nuts?

Who exactly is "gleeful" about the murder of those police officers?

I said "political" glee.
It's been all about *the end of Huckabee*.

I'd place more blame on those who granted bail for a guy arrested for child rape who had a long, long, violent criminal history.
Huckabee can take his share of the blame. But he's sure not the only person he should shoulder it.
Provided this guy is actually charged and convicted.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Christian-bashers think "deathbed confessions" make a big difference.

They may. But not with us. With God.

Real Christians take circumstances into account and leave the final judgment up to Him.

Hucksters like Huckabee pick and choose.

It's the connection between having got religion, and letting someone off from being punished for their crimes for having got religion--in some people's minds--that scares me.

Especially since it seems to be only the one religion.

158 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:47:24pm

re: #130 captdiggs

We've said our prayers for the victims...but the point is that many of those victims wouldn't have been victims if Huckabee had done his f**king job to begin with in declining that pardon.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:47:38pm

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

I'll get the grill going. Seamonkey will be well done in about 25 minutes. It was a fairly young troll, some it won't take too long to roast.

Anyone got leftover stuffing from Thanksgiving?

160 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:47:58pm

re: #156 captdiggs
It's puzzling that this gets all the attention, when years ago, Huckabee pardoned a rapist in AR who went on to murder a woman in MO after he was released. This shouldn't be any more of a shocka.

161 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:48:27pm

re: #37 lawhawk

It's definitely an epic failure of judgment on Huckabee's part to have pardoned this guy despite the fact that prosecutors warned him not to.

However, the failures go much deeper than that - and while they don't absolve Huckabee, it shows that law enforcement and the courts let down the people of both Washington and Arkansas.

But for Huckabee commuting the sentences, Clemmons would not have been released from prison. That he was released from prison allowed him to go on and commit crimes in both Arkansas and Washington. In fact, he was in a Washington jail and was released just days before the shootings today. That's right - he was in jail but got released on bail despite awaiting adjudication on a child rape charge.

Why was bail granted? This guy was a recidivist and a threat to the public safety. There was nothing to indicate any changed behavior. Yet, Huckabee granted the original commutation of sentence, and he had better explain why he did what he did.

It makes me wonder how many other maniacs are out on bail right now. Unbelievable.

162 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:48:44pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone got leftover stuffing from Thanksgiving?

Nope, eated it all!
And you?

163 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:48:56pm

re: #153 albusteve

so you are saying Wiccans even are less apt to fantasy than Christians?

He/She's saying that it's politically acceptable to let someone out based on getting religion, as long as that religion is Christianity. If he became a fundamentalist wiccan he'd still be rotting in jail right now and 4 police officers would be at home with their families.

164 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:48:59pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

It's the connection between having got religion, and letting someone off from being punished for their crimes for having got religion--in some people's minds--that scares me.

Especially since it seems to be only the one religion.

A true penitent would have remorse for his crimes and accept his just punishment.

165 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:49:04pm

re: #160 tradewind

It's puzzling that this gets all the attention, when years ago, Huckabee pardoned a rapist in AR who went on to murder a woman in MO after he was released. This shouldn't be any more of a shocka.

a serial pardoner...Huck

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:49:54pm

re: #48 Big Steve

Down here in Texas we have a governor who is in trouble for not commuting a death sentence on a guy who was probably innocent of setting a house fire that killed his own children.

I know we will all tsk tsk over this issue with Huckabee but one of the political hazards of being a governor is that you actually have to make decisions that mean something. This is unlike Congress people who can always blame others.

I agree. I would hate to be the guy who had to make these calls. And I would hate to be Huckabee tonight. My take on the man is that he has a conscience. This will be a bad time for him.

167 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:50:03pm

re: #163 recusancy

He/She's saying that it's politically acceptable to let someone out based on getting religion, as long as that religion is Christianity. If he became a fundamentalist wiccan he'd still be rotting in jail right now and 4 police officers would be at home with their families.

it was a loaded question...thanks for answering for someone else tho

168 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:50:08pm

re: #146 JasonA

Republican donors wont stand behind him and fund his campaign. He'd have little chance of building a grassroots campaign without it. This is the kind of news that can kill a political career - and rightly so if it pans out that Clemmons was indeed the killer.

At the same time, someone better take a damned good look at both the parole board that allowed him out of prison early, and the judge in Pierce Cty in Washington that agreed to bail in this case, even knowing his violent history and multiple crimes.

Where is the accountability here? By anyone - from Huckabee on down?

169 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:50:24pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

It's the connection between having got religion, and letting someone off from being punished for their crimes for having got religion--in some people's minds--that scares me.

Especially since it seems to be only the one religion.

Hey, at least it's only one. I know you're not calling to equal access to clemency here, but...

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:50:54pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

I wonder an assassination of four black white cops by a white black guy qualify as a hate crime?

My guess is... uh...that would be a big fat NO.

Killing cops is already special circumstances.

171 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:07pm

re: #156 captdiggs

I said "political" glee.
It's been all about *the end of Huckabee*.

I'd place more blame on those who granted bail for a guy arrested for child rape who had a long, long, violent criminal history.
Huckabee can take his share of the blame. But he's sure not the only person he should shoulder it.
Provided this guy is actually charged and convicted.

And for my part, I think it's beyond appalling that you're trying to make excuses for Mike Huckabee's role in this.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:16pm

re: #62 Floral Giraffe

I don't know that the 3 strikes law, has reduced crime at all.
I do know, that if the offender if facing a third strike, many seem to prefer "suicide" by cop.
I'll go look for some info on the crime stats.

Let us know what you find. It's not my perception that it's done a whole lot except crowd the prisons, but I may hang out with the wrong people. ;)

173 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:24pm

"Willie Horton or will he not get elected..."

- Michael Franti

174 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:26pm

He had eight felony charges in Washington.

Any blame for WA state leadership? (all democrat womew BTW) Bring it on.

175 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:31pm

Question:

Couldn't the clemency be reversed if the suspect continued being an asshole? And if so, why was it not?

176 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:36pm

re: #164 Alouette

A true penitent would have remorse for his crimes and accept his just punishment.

That would go hand in hand with "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...", wouldn't it?

177 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:52:59pm

Arkansas has a Parole Board that makes clemency recommendations [Link: www.arbop.org...] but the online record only shows 2008 and 2009.

178 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:00pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree. I would hate to be the guy who had to make these calls. And I would hate to be Huckabee tonight. My take on the man is that he has a conscience. This will be a bad time for him.

to bad...he's an officer of the public because he chose to be...he needs to answer for his failures to the voters that elected him...tough life eh?...with all that power?

179 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:05pm

re: #160 tradewind

No, it shouldn't be a shocker, but the attention on Huckabee's character and judgment should send clear signals to all observers that he's not someone who should be a credible contender for anything more than dog catcher, and even then I wonder if he'd find a way to screw something up.

180 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:11pm

re: #165 albusteve
I could not believe during the primaries last year that he was even in the running. This instance is one of many. It may have the most tragic results, due to the four deaths... but it is not the only instance where his largesse to a criminal resulted in the criminal repeating once he was released.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:19pm

re: #78 kobra_55

Is it just me or could Sarah Palin have made it through this completely unscathed if she had done this as governor? Unfortunately for Huckabee he doesn't have her sort of...whatever it is she has.

I believe they call it 'mojo'.

182 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:26pm

re: #176 talon_262

That would go hand in hand with "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...", wouldn't it?

Dina d'malchusa dina ("The law of the land must be obeyed")

183 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:26pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

It's the connection between having got religion, and letting someone off from being punished for their crimes for having got religion--in some people's minds--that scares me.

Especially since it seems to be only the one religion.

Agreed. The Republicans lost me when they became god-merchants. Can anyone come up with a viable GOP nominee for 2012? Obama might get a second term, and moreover, I might vote for it, if nothing other than Romney/Palin/Huckabee is in the game.

184 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:53:54pm

re: #174 Sheepdogess

He had eight felony charges in Washington.

Any blame for WA state leadership? (all democrat womew BTW) Bring it on.

You bet - plenty to go around. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that the guy was in jail and let out by a bible-thumping, supposedly tough-on-crime conservative.

It's going to be great watching Malkin, Rush, Hannity and Beck spin this...

I'm getting popcorn!

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:54:13pm

re: #79 acwgusa

Allah passes, and Buddha shoots for the goal!

Jesus saves, the Elder Gods collect, and Krishna Copies. (You have to be a Bay Area-nik of a certain geeky flavor to get that one.)

186 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:54:24pm

re: #156 captdiggs

This guy was already locked up- the only reason he was out on the streets was because of Huckabee.

187 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:54:40pm

re: #184 Cineaste

You bet - plenty to go around. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that the guy was in jail and let out by a bible-thumping, supposedly tough-on-crime conservative.

It's going to be great watching Malkin, Rush, Hannity and Beck spin this...

I'm getting popcorn!

You're already seeing the early spinning develop right here.

188 Slim_Junior  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:09pm

It appears that Clemmons is as of this moment still at large. So if he's the shooter, and he knows his days of freedom are drawing to a close, such a nutcase might just decide to take out a few more people on the way out. I would not want to be someone who has crossed him at this moment.

Oh, and good riddance (politically) to Huckabee.

189 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:17pm

re: #184 Cineaste

You bet - plenty to go around. But that doesn't mitigate the fact that the guy was in jail and let out by a bible-thumping, supposedly tough-on-crime conservative.

It's going to be great watching Malkin, Rush, Hannity and Beck spin this...

I'm getting popcorn!

Good point. I don't watch Fox anymore, but tomorrow could be interestng and worth turning on.

190 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:19pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree. I would hate to be the guy who had to make these calls. And I would hate to be Huckabee tonight. My take on the man is that he has a conscience. This will be a bad time for him.

I understand where you're coming from but at the end of the day, this is a man who chose to subject his own intellect to "faith" and proudly professes it. He let faith get in the way of his obligation to the people and he deserves to have many bad nights of sleep for it.

191 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:31pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

All I can find, with numbers is from 2002.
My Google-Fu is weak tonight.

192 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:37pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone got leftover stuffing from Thanksgiving?

Stuffing does work well when you grill a troll and he's done cooking anyway. Who wants the first slice of Gamey Buttocks?

193 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:45pm

re: #186 Sharmuta

This guy was already locked up- the only reason he was out on the streets was because of Huckabee.

Wasn't he just recently released pending the rape charge?

194 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:55:55pm

re: #189 Bacchus's daddy

Good point. I don't watch Fox anymore, but tomorrow could be interestng and worth turning on.

I mean if the choice is between watching 2012 and this, I think this will be more entertaining!

195 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:56:15pm

re: #193 Racer X

Wasn't he just recently released pending the rape charge?

Would he have raped if Huckabee had left him jail?

196 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:56:39pm

Three mass shootings of police officers this year.

Oakland, CA

Sergeant Mark Dunakin
Oakland Police Department, CA
EOW: Saturday, March 21, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Sergeant Daniel Sakai
Oakland Police Department, CA
EOW: Saturday, March 21, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Sergeant Ervin Romans
Oakland Police Department, CA
EOW: Saturday, March 21, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Pittsburgh, PA

Police Officer Paul John Rizzo Domenic Sciullo II
Pittsburgh Police Department, PA
EOW: Saturday, April 4, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Police Officer Eric Guy Kelly
Pittsburgh Police Department, PA
EOW: Saturday, April 4, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Police Officer Stephen James Mayhle
Pittsburgh Police Department, PA
EOW: Saturday, April 4, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Lakewood, WA

Police Officer Ronald Owen
Lakewood Police Department, WA
EOW: Sunday, November 29, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Police Officer Greg Richards
Lakewood Police Department, WA
EOW: Sunday, November 29, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Police Officer Tina Griswold
Lakewood Police Department, WA
EOW: Sunday, November 29, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

Sergeant Mark Renninger
Lakewood Police Department, WA
EOW: Sunday, November 29, 2009
Cause of Death: Gunfire

The Officer Down Memorial Page

197 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:56:50pm

hey Huck!...civil service is a bitch sometimes...eh?

198 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:56:58pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

Would he have raped if Huckabee had left him jail?

Trick question?

199 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:57:07pm

Zedushka is reading the new Dan Brown novel now, and he agrees with me that it is Teh Suck.

One of the "sacred, secret symbols" that the novel "reveals" is a very familiar corporate logo. I'm wondering if Dan gets product placement for his novels, like film producers.

200 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:57:08pm

re: #191 Floral Giraffe

Have you ever tried hydrogen peroxide fro gardening applications? I've been reading up on it and it seems worth a try.

201 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:57:12pm

re: #193 Racer X

Wasn't he just recently released pending the rape charge?

Released 6 days ago.

202 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:57:12pm

re: #186 Sharmuta

This guy was already locked up- the only original reason he was out on the streets was because of Huckabee.

FIFY

203 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:57:35pm

re: #198 Racer X

Trick question?

no, not at all

204 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #203 albusteve

no, not at all

I got it - my point was made in #202

205 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:58:17pm

re: #196 Gus 802

God Bless our domestic serving officers.

206 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:59:36pm

re: #171 Charles

And for my part, I think it's beyond appalling that you're trying to make excuses for Mike Huckabee's role in this.

I'm not, that's your spin because you are more interested in the politics of the story.
The guy has not been charged. Two weeks ago you were cautioning everyone of the "24 hour rule" regarding speculation concerning a Major with an arabic name who went on a shooting spree at Fort Hood.
Now that Huckabee is in the mix, you're speculating on religious reasons for that commutation 9 years ago and titled the thread "cop killer" when there has been no arrest, no charges.

I wouldn't vote for Huckabee, but don't try to spin what I said.

207 Digital Display  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:59:44pm

re: #156 captdiggs

I said "political" glee.
It's been all about *the end of Huckabee*.

There is no pleasure finding the end of Huckabee here..And it certainly doesn't rise to glee.. Political or not...Try disgust pal...
4 good men and their families have been destroyed by religious political correctness and some kind of baptist forgiveness...
That's a fact...Glee doesn't enter the equation...

208 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:00:20pm

re: #183 Bacchus's daddy

Sharmuta put me on to someone interesting... Jon Huntsman.

209 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:00:33pm

Huckabee has a lot of explaining to do. His political aspirations are over. He is done. But he is not the only one who failed miserably here. Dude was let out of jail 6 days ago? Did they not look at his past? A child rape charge? WTH?

210 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:00:38pm

Well, I'm on record predicting Huckabee won't be the R nominee for 2012. This sort of ices it. Not that I had any idea it would work out like this.

The only way to be sure nothing like this will happen, if you're governor, is to never grant anyone clemency, and only pardon those that must be pardoned because justice requires it.

211 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:00:56pm

re: #205 Floral Giraffe

God Bless our domestic serving officers.

Sickens the heart. I've never seen so many killed at one time like this year in single events.

212 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:17pm

re: #208 Rightwingconspirator

Sharmuta put me on to someone interesting... Jon Huntsman.

I am also growing more fond of Lindsey Graham these days.

213 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:18pm

re: #199 Alouette

I've read one Dan Brown. Will never read another. :) A "shred" (Metallica) a buddy of mine did recently is better entertainment than Dan Brown:

214 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:22pm

re: #206 captdiggs

I'm not, that's your spin because you are more interested in the politics of the story.
The guy has not been charged. Two weeks ago you were cautioning everyone of the "24 hour rule" regarding speculation concerning a Major with an arabic name who went on a shooting spree at Fort Hood.
Now that Huckabee is in the mix, you're speculating on religious reasons for that commutation 9 years ago and titled the thread "cop killer" when there has been no arrest, no charges.

I wouldn't vote for Huckabee, but don't try to spin what I said.

Speculation? We know the facts. Huck let him out.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:23pm

re: #163 recusancy

He/She's saying that it's politically acceptable to let someone out based on getting religion, as long as that religion is Christianity. If he became a fundamentalist wiccan he'd still be rotting in jail right now and 4 police officers would be at home with their families.

Precisely.

216 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:43pm

re: #206 captdiggs

I'm not, that's your spin because you are more interested in the politics of the story.
The guy has not been charged. Two weeks ago you were cautioning everyone of the "24 hour rule" regarding speculation concerning a Major with an arabic name who went on a shooting spree at Fort Hood.
Now that Huckabee is in the mix, you're speculating on religious reasons for that commutation 9 years ago and titled the thread "cop killer" when there has been no arrest, no charges.

I wouldn't vote for Huckabee, but don't try to spin what I said.

You're making an apples & oranges comparison. Charles was making the point then that you can't ascribe motive to the murderer until more is known, and he was right. Here there is significant documentation, not about the accused, but about Huckabee's history of decision making. That is totally fair game to judge.

217 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Have you ever tried hydrogen peroxide fro gardening applications? I've been reading up on it and it seems worth a try.

It is very handy and versatile for hydroponic gardening.

218 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #208 Rightwingconspirator

Sharmuta put me on to someone interesting... Jon Huntsman.

hahaha!...that was months ago...where have you been?, pick it up bro...

219 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:02:12pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

Precisely.

I have to confess it would be interesting to see someone ask for clemency on the basis of becoming a devout Aztec.

220 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:02:29pm

In the chain of events, Huckabee's clemency of Clemmons is the first in a series of awful decisions to allow this guy to run free. He used every opportunity granted him to engage in criminal acts. Now, it looks he murdered four police officers (and that's all the more reason that people will see this as the end of his political career, unlike the earlier incident that involved a rape of a woman by a guy granted clemency by Huckabee). You release a guy that goes on to kill cops? That takes bad judgment to a whole different level, even though the first instance (Dumond) should have been a warning.

Indeed, it also looks like Huckabee is more than willing to throw others under the bus - just as he did with the Dumond case. There, he tried to blame the mess on Jim Guy Tucker.

Oh, and it looks like Michelle Malkin is playing this one straight - running the history of bad decisions on Huckabee's part. That's the only way you should be running the story.

221 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:02:37pm

re: #219 EmmmieG

I have to confess it would be interesting to see someone ask for clemency on the basis of becoming a devout Aztec.

Only if you're a dancing Aztec.

222 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:02:55pm

re: #184 Cineaste

Eighteen months ago a kid who went to highschool with my kid got drunk/stoned and killed a woman in a late night high speed car accident. He was of age.

It never made the news. It was never covered by the local Seattle press. Nothing.
He was the son of well connected liberals.

The victim was a someones wife and mother of two small children.

The perp is still free as bird and will probably see no jail time from what I have heard from those who know the family.

The media is corrupt and we will see what comes of this.

We will see.

223 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:02:56pm

re: #179 lawhawk
I fully agree, and have been saying that since before the last national election.
I am really curious as to the psychology behind Huckabee's reasoning. The principle of Christian forgiveness doesn't cover it...redemptive grace does not preclude paying for one's misdeeds in life. There has to be some deeper motive at work there.

224 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:00pm

re: #207 HoosierHoops

I asked earlier that I might have missed where Huckabee gave religious reason for letting him go...

225 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:08pm

re: #219 EmmmieG

I have to confess it would be interesting to see someone ask for clemency on the basis of becoming a devout Aztec.

Better yet - what about a true adherent to atheism? Roll that around in the old noggin for a while...

226 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #212 Sharmuta

I am also growing more fond of Lindsey Graham these days.

PETE!

227 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #206 captdiggs

Insulting Charles on his own blog; Real smart.

/dripping

228 Linden Arden  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:27pm

With Huckabee almost certainly off the national scene now, the side effect will be that Sarah Palin will have the entire Evangelical vote to herself should she run as expected. This is not good for the GOP.

But most important by far is the fact that four brave public servants have needlessly lost their lives. My sympathy to their loved ones.

229 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:28pm

On a related note Huckabee says he's "less than like" to seek the nomination in 2012. He says he loves his TV gig at fox too much. Yeah. I'm sure that's really the reason he came out with that. Today.

This makes me happy because he's the only one of Theocratis of I'm scared of actual winning. I find myself nodding along with him despite the fact that every word out of his mouth makes my skin curl.

230 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:42pm

Trying to find more info on the Parole Board recommendation re Clemmons, and Michelle Malkin popped up. She is not being friendly to Huckabee.

231 wee fury  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:46pm

Deepest sympathy to the family, friends and the PD of the murdered officers.

232 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:53pm

Tomorrow's headline:

Huckabee Goes Huckabye

233 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:03:58pm

re: #222 Sheepdogess

Huh? Now this is a liberal conspiracy?

234 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:04:19pm

re: #220 lawhawk

Oh, and it looks like Michelle Malkin is playing this one straight - running the history of bad decisions on Huckabee's part. That's the only way you should be running the story.

Well then that's a shame for Cinease's 184, where he/she was already getting ready to get enjoyment out of spin.

235 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:04:24pm

re: #218 albusteve

What happened that I missed?

236 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:01pm

re: #222 Sheepdogess

That's a dreadful story, truly horrible. But what is your point about my comment? I'm just not following. (no conflict here, just a little confused)

237 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:13pm

re: #229 Conservative Moonbat

On a related note Huckabee says he's "less than like" to seek the nomination in 2012. He says he loves his TV gig at fox too much. Yeah. I'm sure that's really the reason he came out with that. Today.

This makes me happy because he's the only one of Theocratis of I'm scared of actual winning. I find myself nodding along with him despite the fact that every word out of his mouth makes my skin curl.

less than likely

PIMF

238 joest1973  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:40pm

Huckabee is what we thought he was. The best place for Mr. Rodgers Huckabee is on TV. The only thing missing from his show is the Huckster singing "Won't you be my neighbor" while putting on a sweater and changing his shoes.

239 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:45pm

re: #206 captdiggs
Wake up. He's done this before, and had similar awful results!

240 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:49pm

re: #219 EmmmieG

I have to confess it would be interesting to see someone ask for clemency on the basis of becoming a devout Aztec.

I don't think there were Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Mexica. They all pretty much worshiped Huitzilopochtli and some of the lesser gods.

241 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:05:58pm

re: #234 TheMatrix31

Well then that's a shame for Cinease's 184, where he/she was already getting ready to get enjoyment out of spin.

I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

242 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:06:36pm

re: #241 Cineaste

Well that's good then.

243 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:06:44pm

re: #238 joest1973

Huckabee is what we thought he was. The best place for Mr. Rodgers Huckabee is on TV. The only thing missing from his show is the Huckster singing "Won't you be my neighbor" while putting on a sweater and changing his shoes.

HEY!

Don't you be dissin' Mr. Rogers!

244 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:06:45pm

re: #234 TheMatrix31

Well then that's a shame for Cinease's 184, where he/she was already getting ready to get enjoyment out of spin.

That being said, how will the Fox team spin it. He's got his own show there.

245 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:07:16pm

re: #243 Racer X

HEY!

Don't you be dissin' Mr. Rogers!

Today Mr. Rogers will be discussing people we don't want to be our neighbors. Can you say "Restraining order?" I knew you could.

246 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:07:22pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

Have you ever tried hydrogen peroxide fro gardening applications? I've been reading up on it and it seems worth a try.

Cleans algae right off a pot, or plant label! Spritz it, or rubbing alcohol on mealy bugs! Good stuff!

247 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:07:35pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Insulting Charles on his own blog; Real smart.

/dripping

If there is a problem here with speaking contrary views and some are afraid to do so, then that's not my problem.
If "insult" means reminding people of what they had previously said, then so be it.
I survived a suicide bombing many years ago. I don't get real worked up about message boards.
I try to keep it respectful, but I do speak my mind.

248 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:07:51pm

re: #235 Rightwingconspirator

What happened that I missed?

some of us have been wracking our brains for over a year trying to find some conservative leadership...Huntsman was a name that came up, long ago...Sanford was another...the Jewish kid in the House, what's his name...I like Pete Hoekstra myself...it's an ongoing thing to find people we can relate to...fiscal conservatives

249 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:06pm

re: #244 Cineaste

That being said, how will the Fox team spin it. He's got his own show there.

I doubt you'll hear a word about it from fox.

That or they will put a D after his name when they do.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:15pm

re: #190 Cineaste

I understand where you're coming from but at the end of the day, this is a man who chose to subject his own intellect to "faith" and proudly professes it. He let faith get in the way of his obligation to the people and he deserves to have many bad nights of sleep for it.

I don't disagree. Just feel for the poor bastard. He made the wrong call, and people are dead tonight.

251 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:41pm

re: #224 TheMatrix31

I asked earlier that I might have missed where Huckabee gave religious reason for letting him go...

I haven't seen any indication that Huckabee gave a religious reason for letting the guy go - what I saw indicated it had something to do with the guy's age. Apparently Huckabee ignored all the info about the guy's behavior. But I haven't seen anything indicating there was a reason connected to religion. I'm trying to figure out why that's being discussed here by some as if it was the case.

252 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:54pm

re: #248 albusteve

ps...I don't mean to sound put offish...sorry for that

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:56pm

re: #238 joest1973

Huckabee is what we thought he was. The best place for Mr. Rodgers Huckabee is on TV. The only thing missing from his show is the Huckster singing "Won't you be my neighbor" while putting on a sweater and changing his shoes.

He was always more of a guitar player than a singer. And the only shoes I'd like associated with him would be the ones thrown at him for his fatal errors in judgment and Creationism.

254 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:08:57pm

re: #244 Cineaste

I don't particularly care either way.

255 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:08pm

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

256 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:09pm

Yeah I had missed him. I was not watching governors. I'm so busted.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:26pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Three mass shootings of police officers this year.


The Officer Down Memorial Page

Thank you.

258 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:27pm

re: #251 reine.de.tout

Thanks for being the one to give me an answer.

259 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:36pm

re: #252 albusteve

We're good.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:54pm

re: #199 Alouette

Zedushka is reading the new Dan Brown novel now, and he agrees with me that it is Teh Suck.

One of the "sacred, secret symbols" that the novel "reveals" is a very familiar corporate logo. I'm wondering if Dan gets product placement for his novels, like film producers.

That would be hilarious.

261 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:56pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Insulting Charles on his own blog; Real smart.

/dripping

I don't see it...Charles can make his own calls

262 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:56pm

re: #255 Cineaste

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

They like his religion but think he's a big government conservative. Or at least that's what I was hearing during the primaries.

263 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:09:59pm

re: #251 reine.de.tout

I haven't seen any indication that Huckabee gave a religious reason for letting the guy go - what I saw indicated it had something to do with the guy's age. Apparently Huckabee ignored all the info about the guy's behavior. But I haven't seen anything indicating there was a reason connected to religion. I'm trying to figure out why that's being discussed here by some as if it was the case.

Same here.

264 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:10:13pm

re: #255 Cineaste

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

Maybe that shit doesn't matter? You get on them for ideological purity, then get pissed when they get on Huckabee for something they should be getting on them for? That's ridiculous.

265 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:10:14pm

re: #222 Sheepdogess

What, if anything, are you doing to change this?
You can make a difference!

266 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:10:44pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you.

YW

I know we all remember the Oakland and Pittsburgh shootings.

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:10:55pm

re: #211 Gus 802

Sickens the heart. I've never seen so many killed at one time like this year in single events.

The crazy is loose on the land, feels like.

268 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:11:12pm

re: #264 TheMatrix31

Maybe that shit doesn't matter? You get on them for ideological purity, then get pissed when they get on Huckabee for something they should be getting on them for? That's ridiculous.

I'm not pissed at all. I'm curious. I want to understand and I'm asking an honest question. What's with the aggression?

269 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:11:27pm

re: #247 captdiggs

If there is a problem here with speaking contrary views and some are afraid to do so, then that's not my problem.
If "insult" means reminding people of what they had previously said, then so be it.
I survived a suicide bombing many years ago. I don't get real worked up about message boards.
I try to keep it respectful, but I do speak my mind.

It's not about being contrary, its about accusing Charles of spinning. Charles does not spin, I've never known him to play a story any way but straight.

270 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:11:55pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

The crazy is loose on the land, feels like.

I hope that like Europe in the 30s, the lights are not going out here.

271 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:11:56pm

re: #255 Cineaste

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

Some of his social policies are actual kinda moderate IIRC.

He supports some weird stuff like a national smoking ban and a national sales tax.

272 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:12:09pm

re: #264 TheMatrix31

Maybe that shit doesn't matter? You get on them for ideological purity, then get pissed when they get on Huckabee for something they should be getting on them for? That's ridiculous.

Besides, schadenfreud has a quality of "he had it coming" rather than "wow, what a shame". It feels like guns were loaded and waiting and I'm curious if either I'm wrong about that or, if I'm right, why.

273 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:12:17pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

The crazy is loose on the land, feels like.

Once in a while I read back about what happened at Virginia Tech. It's beyond words.

274 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:12:51pm

re: #255 Cineaste

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

It's only a hunch, but I suspect the horse they're backing is Palin, and Huckabee would have taken votes from her. Sarah's their horse in this race and whatever hurts her competition is good for them.

275 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:13:02pm

re: #272 Cineaste

#262

276 wee fury  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:13:22pm

Huckabee's . . . 'Dukakis moment.'

277 joest1973  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:13:25pm

re: #243 Racer X

re: #243 Racer X

HEY!

Don't you be dissin' Mr. Rogers!

As a western PA boy I wouldn't do that, but I remember as a kid that many people were turned off by his softness and choir boy innocence.

278 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:13:33pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

It's not about being contrary, its about accusing Charles of spinning. Charles does not spin, I've never known him to play a story any way but straight.

let Charles take care of himself

279 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:14:52pm

re: #255 Cineaste

It seems like some on the far right (Malkin, RSM, etc...) seem have some real schadenfreud for Huckabee. Can anyone fill me in on why? I thought he was well liked as a good Christian Conservative?

The Hotair crowd hates him. Really, you'd think he'd be their guy, but...

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:15:30pm

re: #219 EmmmieG

I have to confess it would be interesting to see someone ask for clemency on the basis of becoming a devout Aztec.

LOL! That might work against clemency!

281 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:15:36pm

re: #251 reine.de.tout

I haven't seen any indication that Huckabee gave a religious reason for letting the guy go - what I saw indicated it had something to do with the guy's age. Apparently Huckabee ignored all the info about the guy's behavior. But I haven't seen anything indicating there was a reason connected to religion. I'm trying to figure out why that's being discussed here by some as if it was the case.

I asked the question because if you read the article above, it's clear that Clemmons was obsessed with religion, and used it to manipulate people. And there's a long history of convicts using religion to trick their way out of prison.

Apparently the prosecutors were strongly opposed to Huckabee's granting clemency. Why did he ignore their objections?

And Huckabee is a hardcore fundamentalist, who wants to amend the US Constitution to make it more in line with "Biblical principles."

There are serious reasons to ask that question.

282 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:16:03pm

re: #279 funky chicken

The Hotair crowd hates him. Really, you'd think he'd be their guy, but...

I think it's really interesting. Matrix seems to think it's crazy that I'd actually want to learn.

283 nmdesertrat  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:16:19pm

I love the part where Clemmons had a hinge hidden in a sock, a hinge that he supposedly gotten from a courtroom door. Where the hell was the baliff or sheriff's deputies while he la-de-da'd over to the door? Did he also have a screwdriver, or did he use his fingernail to take out the screws?

284 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:16:48pm

re: #282 Cineaste

I apologize then.

285 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:17:28pm
286 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:17:41pm

re: #265 Floral Giraffe

All I can do is demand personal responsibility from my children.

287 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:17:51pm

re: #281 Charles

I asked the question because if you read the article above, it's clear that Clemmons was obsessed with religion, and used it to manipulate people. And there's a long history of convicts using religion to trick their way out of prison.

Apparently the prosecutors were strongly opposed to Huckabee's granting clemency. Why did he ignore their objections?

And Huckabee is a hardcore fundamentalist, who wants to amend the US Constitution to make it more in line with "Biblical principles."

There are serious reasons to ask that question.

Quite Concur.

288 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #284 TheMatrix31

I apologize then.

Completely accepted and I withdraw #282.

289 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:18:13pm

No links to the Ace of Spades hell hole, please.

290 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:18:25pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the second targeted killing of police officers in Washington St this year... is there some anti-government thing at work up there?

291 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:18:43pm
292 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:19:17pm

Many people covered their ears and ran away screaming at the initial suggestion that religion played a role on the Ft. Hood killings.

Here, not so much.

293 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:19:24pm

re: #291 Bacchus's daddy

Poof!

294 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:19:47pm

re: #246 Floral Giraffe

Cleans algae right off a pot, or plant label! Spritz it, or rubbing alcohol on mealy bugs! Good stuff!

As little as 3ml of 3% H2O2*gallon of solution, will control algae buildup and control root "pathogens", 35ml*gallon is also good.

295 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:20:27pm

re: #290 tradewind

Washington state is a mess. It's very depressing.

296 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:20:35pm

re: #292 Racer X

Many people covered their ears and ran away screaming at the initial suggestion that religion played a role on the Ft. Hood killings.

Here, not so much.

Hang on. Noone is suggesting that religion played a role in these killings. It is suggested that it played a role in Huckabee's evaluation of clemency.

297 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:21:00pm

re: #277 joest1973

He was an ordained Presbyterian minister. God Bless Mr. Rogers!

298 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:21:36pm

re: #292 Racer X

Are you comparing Fort hood to this?

299 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:22:03pm

re: #295 Sheepdogess
That must be the explanation for Jim McDermott... I always wondered how anyone elected him anything.

300 wee fury  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:22:12pm

re: #297 prairiefire

Mr. Rogers was good.

301 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:22:27pm

re: #292 Racer X

Many people covered their ears and ran away screaming at the initial suggestion that religion played a role on the Ft. Hood killings.

Here, not so much.

when the religion of the loon is Christianity, its much easier and safer for the media to make the connection. Going after Islam is much more dangerous.

302 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:22:55pm

re: #298 Sheepdogess

Are you comparing Fort hood to this?

Absolutely not.

303 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:22:59pm

re: #293 Gus 802

Didn't know what you meant at first- figured it out just now.

304 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:23:20pm

re: #281 Charles

I asked the question because if you read the article above, it's clear that Clemmons was obsessed with religion, and used it to manipulate people. And there's a long history of convicts using religion to trick their way out of prison.

Apparently the prosecutors were strongly opposed to Huckabee's granting clemency. Why did he ignore their objections?

And Huckabee is a hardcore fundamentalist, who wants to amend the US Constitution to make it more in line with "Biblical principles."

There are serious reasons to ask that question.

I agree there are very good reasons to think that a "conversion" may have played into Huckabee's decision. In this case it doesn't appear so.

However, some in the thread were discussing this as if it were actually the case that Huckabee granted the clemency for religious reasons, which I found odd since Killgore posted upthread that it appeared to be about the guy's age.

305 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:23:22pm

re: #303 Bacchus's daddy

Didn't know what you meant at first- figured it out just now.

Yeah, the link. It happens.

306 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:24:35pm

re: #217 Bagua

It is very handy and versatile for hydroponic gardening.

That's what a hear. I'm also reading that it does well in the dirt garden for pest control and increasing yield. I'm gonna give it a try.

307 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:24:57pm

Geez. You throw some Zataran's in the pot with a couple pounds of shrimp, make a nice wild rice, cook up some carrot's in butter, eat dins with the wife and watch Vicky Cristina Barcelona and the next thing you know, you log on to LGF and Huckabucka has had his presidential aspirations blown out of the water by a lunatic with a gun.

Makes for a weird Sunday night, Lizards.

308 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:25:04pm

re: #296 Cineaste
But I'm not so sure. If you have time, read the very long and involved explanation of how Huckabee finagled the release of Wayne Dumond, who later went on to rape and murder a woman after his release. (Scroll to almost the end for the good part).
[Link: www.arktimes.com...]

309 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:25:46pm

re: #305 Gus 802

Yeah, the link. It happens.

Gather that Ace of Spades is bad news! Will never "quote" a post that links there again.

310 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:26:21pm

re: #307 austin_blue

/some carrot's what?/

311 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:26:46pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

Mich-again linked a story in #3.

312 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:27:03pm

re: #292 Racer X

Many people covered their ears and ran away screaming at the initial suggestion that religion played a role on the Ft. Hood killings.

Here, not so much.

Uh oh. Not wise when the wound is raw. Best to take a step back on all of these incidents. Time will tell.

313 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:27:29pm

re: #307 austin_blue

I hope he is finally called on the carpet from members of his own party for his predilection of handing out pardons like Kleenexes. That's not gonna get him into Heaven.

314 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:28:19pm
Records from Clemmons' sentencing described him as 5-foot-7 and 108 pounds. The crimes were committed when he was 17.

Clemmons served 11 years before being released.

News accounts say Huckabee commuted Clemmons' sentence, citing Clemmons' young age at the time the crimes were committed.

11 years is a long sentence for a 17 year old to serve.

315 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:28:28pm

re: #310 tradewind

/some carrot's what?/

Oh, shit. I'm a moron. Nice catch. Mea culpa.

Shandy's.

316 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:29:18pm

re: #314 Bagua

11 years is a long sentence for a 17 year old to serve.

"too bad"...
albusteve the Unmerciful

317 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:31:12pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

An inexpensive spray bottle sprayer will fit on the top of the (darkened to prolong it's life) hydrogen peroxide bottle. Makes it easier to find!

318 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:31:20pm

I don't know anything much about "Ace of Spades" but I checked out the site since the topic was raised here. "Ace" disapproved of Huckabee for his Mormon-baiting during the 2008 nomination contest, and also for his overuse of pardons. Nothing rabid at Ace when it comes to this incident.

319 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:31:49pm

Brilliant, another repeat violent offender with numerous previous felony convictions and who is now facing child rape charges is set free on $12,000 bond. His relatives only had to put up $1200 and pledge a car or something worth the rest to get him set free while he is waiting for trial that could easily be more than a year away the way the courts work now.

I guess we need the jail space for all those non-violent drug offenders much more than keeping a violent piece of scum like this locked up. The war on drugs has worked wonders for our justice system hasn't it?

320 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:31:54pm

re: #315 austin_blue
You're not a moron. I'm just messing with ya because a) you do love random apostrophes, and b) I am much gentler than Cato, who would surely be next.
:)

321 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:32:52pm

re: #307 austin_blue

I had a different menu, similar company for dinner. Same conclusion.
Huck is far more cooked than either of our meals.

322 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:33:48pm

Clemency is legal act that only the President should hold - and even that, within reason. As for Huckabee, he's bad for our country. I'd have an ounce more respect for him if he had the decency to explain in detail to the families of the four murdered officers why he granted clemency.

323 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:33:48pm

re: #308 tradewind

But I'm not so sure. If you have time, read the very long and involved explanation of how Huckabee finagled the release of Wayne Dumond, who later went on to rape and murder a woman after his release. (Scroll to almost the end for the good part).
[Link: www.arktimes.com...]

I had not heard about this case before, but once again we see a connection with fundamentalist religion: Dumond case revisited.

In an effort to stem the political fallout, Huckabee and his staff agreed to meet for the first time with Dumond’s victim, Ashley Stevens, her family, and Fletcher Long, the prosecuting attorney who sent Dumond to prison. In interviews, both Walter “Stevie” Stevens, Ashley’s father, and Long both said they came away frustrated that Huckabee knew so few specifics about the case.

“He [Huckabee] kept insisting that there was DNA evidence that has since exonerated Dumond, when that very much wasn’t the case,” recalled Long. “No matter that that wasn’t true … we couldn’t seem to say or do anything to disabuse him of that notion.”

In fact, there had never been any DNA testing in the Ashley Stevens case.

The state official who advised Huckabee on the Dumond case confirmed that the governor knew very little about Ashley Stevens’ case:

“I don’t believe that he had access to, or read, the law enforcement records or parole commission’s files — even by then,” the official said. “He already seemed to have made up his mind, and his knowledge of the case appeared to be limited to a large degree as to what people had told him, what Jay Cole had told him, and what he had read in the New York Post.”

Jay Cole, like Huckabee, is a Baptist minister, pastor for the Mission Fellowship Bible Church in Fayetteville and a close friend of the governor and his wife. On the ultra-conservative radio program he hosts, Cole has championed the cause of Wayne Dumond for more than a decade.

Cole has repeatedly claimed that Dumond’s various travails are the result of Ashley Stevens’ distant relationship to Bill Clinton.

The governor was also apparently relying on information he got from Steve Dunleavy, first as a correspondent for the tabloid television show “A Current Affair” and later as a columnist for the New York Post.

Much of what Dunleavy has written about the Dumond saga has been either unverified or is demonstrably untrue. Dunleavy has all but accused Ashley Stevens of having fabricated her rape, derisively referring to her in one column as a “so-called victim,” and brusquely asserting in another, “That rape never happened.”

324 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:34:22pm

re: #320 tradewind

You're not a moron. I'm just messing with ya because a) you do love random apostrophes, and b) I am much gentler than Cato, who would surely be next.
:)

I hate it when I do that. It's the drink, I tell ya! Part of my job is reviewing technical docs and I am the ultimate hammer on grammer. Thanks for the gig. I deserved it.

325 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:34:25pm

Mike Huckaby is nobody...he is a third tier player that wants to be somebody...now he is...a political bigshot, TV show, national attention...he deserves whatever scorn gets heaped upon him

326 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:34:43pm

Huckabee Issues Statement:


"The senseless and savage execution of police officers in Washington State has saddened the nation, and early reports indicate that a person of interest is a repeat offender who once lived in Arkansas and was wanted on outstanding warrants here and Washington State. The murder of any individual is a profound tragedy, but the murder of a police officer is the worst of all murders in that it is an assault on every citizen and the laws we live within.

Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State. He was recommended for and received a commutation of his original sentence from 1990. This commutation making him parole eligible and was paroled by the parole board once they determined he met the conditions at that time. He was arrested later for parole violation and taken back to prison to serve his full term, but prosecutors dropped the charges that would have held him. It appears that he has continued to have a string of criminal and psychotic behavior but was not kept incarcerated by either state. This is a horrible and tragic event and if found and convicted the offender should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Our thoughts and prayers are and should be with the families of those honorable, brave, and heroic police officers."

STV

327 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:35:14pm

re: #323 Charles

WOWCH!...

328 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:35:57pm
Jay Cole, like Huckabee, is a Baptist minister, pastor for the Mission Fellowship Bible Church in Fayetteville and a close friend of the governor and his wife. On the ultra-conservative radio program he hosts, Cole has championed the cause of Wayne Dumond for more than a decade.

Cole has repeatedly claimed that Dumond’s various travails are the result of Ashley Stevens’ distant relationship to Bill Clinton.

The governor was also apparently relying on information he got from Steve Dunleavy, first as a correspondent for the tabloid television show “A Current Affair” and later as a columnist for the New York Post.

Much of what Dunleavy has written about the Dumond saga has been either unverified or is demonstrably untrue. Dunleavy has all but accused Ashley Stevens of having fabricated her rape, derisively referring to her in one column as a “so-called victim,” and brusquely asserting in another, “That rape never happened.”

The columnist wrote that Dumond was a “Vietnam veteran with no record” when in fact he did have a criminal record. He claimed there existed DNA evidence by “one of the most respected DNA experts in the country” to exonerate Dumond, even though there was no such evidence. He wrote that Bill Clinton had personally intervened to keep Dumond in prison, even though Clinton had recused himself in 1990 from any involvement in the case because of his distant relationship with Stevens.

“The problem with the governor is that he listens to Jay Cole and reads Steve Dunleavy and believes them ... without doing other substantative work,” the state official said.

Had Huckabee examined in detail the parole board’s files regarding Dumond, he would have known Dumond had compiled a lengthy criminal resume.

In 1972, Dumond was arrested in the beating death of a man in Oklahoma. Dumond was not charged in that case after agreeing to testify for the prosecution against two others. But he admitted on the witness stand that he was among those who struck the murder victim with a claw hammer.

In 1973, Dumond was arrested and placed on probation for five years for admitting in Oregon to molesting a teen-age girl in the parking lot of a shopping center.

Three years later, according to Arkansas State Police records, Dumond admitted to raping an Arkansas woman. (Dumond later repudiated the confession, saying he was coerced by police.) Dumond was never formally charged in that case; the woman, saying she feared for her life, did not press charges. (See sidebar.)

unbelievable

[Link: www.arktimes.com...]

lawhawk posted the article...it's long, but worth the read.

329 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:36:04pm

re: #324 austin_blue

I hate it when I do that. It's the drink, I tell ya! Part of my job is reviewing technical docs and I am the ultimate hammer on grammer. Thanks for the gig. I deserved it.

((And yes, I know that grammer was misspelled!))

330 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:36:07pm

re: #326 Gus 802

Wow. He's actually going to try to pretend it has nothing to do with him.

331 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:36:39pm

re: #326 Gus 802

I feel sooo much better now.

///

Good catch to post his lame response so fast. Thx!

332 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:36:51pm

re: #330 Charles

Wow. He's actually going to try to pretend it has nothing to do with him.

Looks like it. Passing the buck no?

333 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:37:13pm

Incidentally, I may have irritated some folks here the other night with my views vis-a-vis AGW. I apologize, and just to clarify: I don't think altering the % of CO2 in the atmospere is good, and I think responsible measures to reduce CO2 emissions should certainly be undertaken. Where I differ is the extent to which I believe we know what the consequences of the emissions will be, and how corrupted/uncorrupted is the data which has driven the scientific consensus thus far. I keep abreast of science, but am no scientist, and will refrain from commenting on this issue further. I agree with most of you all on so many other things, and don't want to quibble on this one- I believe my doubts have some basis, but also recognize that you all are intelligent folks with very reasonable bases for your own views. Thanks to Sharmuta for a great link, which I have to return to for further perusal.

334 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:37:33pm

re: #326 Gus 802

Huckabee Issues Statement:

STV

Huckabee blames the Parole Board and prosecutors for the scumbag not being locked up. He'll try to throw them under the bus, but hopefully he slips on the banana peel of truth and falls under it himself.

335 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:38:02pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Looks like it. Passing the buck no?

off into space...it won't work

336 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:38:22pm

re: #325 albusteve

Mike Huckaby is nobody...he is a third tier player that wants to be somebody...now he is...a political bigshot, TV show, national attention...he deserves whatever scorn gets heaped upon him

Agreed.
I never much cared for Huckabee.

337 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:38:41pm

re: #330 Charles

Wow. He's actually going to try to pretend it has nothing to do with him.

Yeah. Passive voice: "He was recommended for clemency"...as if that was binding on him.

338 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:39:30pm

re: #326 Gus 802

Huckabee Issues Statement:

STV

Weasel. I figured as much. He's a POS.

339 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:39:35pm

re: #321 Rightwingconspirator

Huckabee: good political and religious riddance.

Toodle - ooo, insufferable moron.

340 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:39:44pm

re: #335 albusteve

off into space...it won't work

Nope. Won't work. Especially this line:

Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State.

He is laying the groundwork for making matters worse for himself.

341 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:39:57pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Huckabee blames the Parole Board and prosecutors for the scumbag not being locked up. He'll try to throw them under the bus, but hopefully he slips on the banana peel of truth and falls under it himself.

Nobody's going to buy that.
Nobody.
Unless they're just plain stupid.

342 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:40:02pm

re: #337 lostlakehiker

Yeah. Passive voice: "He was recommended for clemency"...as if that was binding on him.

He's going to try the old Politico Two Step to distance himself from this fiasco. It won't work; He pushed to pardon the man, and now he'll catch the blame.

343 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:41:01pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

That's what a hear. I'm also reading that it does well in the dirt garden for pest control and increasing yield. I'm gonna give it a try.

For dirt I'd use 30mm(1 ounce) per 1 gallon solution every couple of weeks to keep the roots healthy, depending on the cultivar and the state of the roots and soil.

344 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:41:25pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

Cooked. Fried. Done. Over.

345 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:41:35pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Huckabee blames the Parole Board and prosecutors for the scumbag not being locked up. He'll try to throw them under the bus, but hopefully he slips on the banana peel of truth and falls under it himself.

Yeah. A "series of failures."

346 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:41:39pm

re: #323 Charles

That woman in Parkville was murdered only miles from my home. The whole community was pretty upset. And then to find out the backstory~Disgusting!

347 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:41:41pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

Nobody's going to buy that.
Nobody.
Unless they're just plain stupid.

Sadly, stupid is not difficult to find in this country.

348 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:42:15pm

re: #333 Bacchus's daddy

You're welcome!

349 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:42:44pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

Hi RDT!
How are ya?

350 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:42:52pm

re: #343 Bagua

For dirt I'd use 30mm(1 ounce) per 1 gallon solution every couple of weeks to keep the roots healthy, depending on the cultivar and the state of the roots and soil.

You and Killgore talking about hydrogen peroxide for gardening?
When you've figured it out, let me know so I can put it on the "Killgore's Gardening" part of the cookbook blog.

351 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:44:19pm

re: #349 Rightwingconspirator

Hi RDT!
How are ya?

Hiya!
Doing fine.
I spackled today - my dining room needs painting, and it's got painted paneling in there that has separated where each piece joins the next piece, and so . . . I can hardly move, much less type!

But other than that - doing just great!
You?

352 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:44:32pm

re: #344 Rightwingconspirator

He was irrelevant and done to begin with.

353 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:44:48pm

re: #337 lostlakehiker

Yeah. Passive voice: "He was recommended for clemency"...as if that was binding on him.

"Palin was recommended for consideration" ?

354 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:45:23pm

re: #344 Rightwingconspirator

Cooked. Fried. Done. Over.

In a popcorn popper.

355 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:45:44pm

Great, now I'm going to bed angry. Oh well, night lizards!

356 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:46:36pm

Bagua's Music Break™


I think we all agree the man should have served 99 years in prison.


99 Year Blues


357 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:48:08pm

re: #354 goddamnedfrank

In a popcorn popper.

I still want that recipe. Not for me. Squirrel aren't kosher. But my GMIL hunts.

358 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:48:13pm

"Appeasement was recommended as an option"- Chamberlain

"Cover-up was recommended as an option"- Nixon

359 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:48:20pm

re: #351 reine.de.tout

We cool. Got out with the 40D a little this weekend, cooked up steak and had some wine with the wife.

Glad to see posts of progress on the cookbook BTW.

360 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:48:51pm

re: #356 Bagua

"course also there's

"I turned 21 in prison doin' life without parole..."

Goodnight all.

361 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:49:31pm

How can we even be talking about such trivialities when right now there are innocent Muslims whose Allah-given right to a minaret has been violated?

362 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:49:38pm

re: #343 Bagua

For dirt I'd use 30mm(1 ounce) per 1 gallon solution every couple of weeks to keep the roots healthy, depending on the cultivar and the state of the roots and soil.

Are you using the 3% solution you buy in grocery stores or the 35% "food grade" stuff without stabilizers?

363 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:50:20pm

re: #361 Cato the Elder

How can we even be talking about such trivialities when right now there are innocent Muslims whose Allah-given right to a minaret has been violated?

Quit it!

/

364 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:50:37pm

re: #361 Cato the Elder

How can we even be talking about such trivialities when right now there are innocent Muslims whose Allah-given right to a minaret has been violated?

You mean that story in Switzerland? Let me find a link to it.

365 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:51:47pm

re: #350 reine.de.tout

Much thanks for picking up the broccoli soup recipe. It's become one of my favorites. If you order it at one of Ramsay's restaurants you'd probably pay $10 or more for a bowl. Make it at home for pennies.

366 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:51:49pm

re: #364 Dark_Falcon

Try the LGF front page...

367 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:52:21pm

Here's the "Huck PAC" link to his statement:

[Link: www.huckpac.com...]

368 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:52:31pm

Meanwhile, as usual, as soon as the post on global warming moves down from the top of the page, we get an influx of deniers spewing the usual talking points.

369 Bacchus's daddy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:53:07pm

re: #361 Cato the Elder

How can we even be talking about such trivialities when right now there are innocent Muslims whose Allah-given right to a minaret has been violated?

What if I'm an innocent scientologist whose Hubbard-given right to construct a scientology museum in Riyadh has been violated?

370 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:53:51pm

re: #369 Bacchus's daddy

What if I'm an innocent scientologist whose Hubbard-given right to construct a scientology museum in Riyadh has been violated?

Shh. That's different.

371 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:53:51pm

re: #323 Charles
Wayne Dumond 's case was weird from the get-go, but the sense down here was that Huckabee felt sorry for him because of what happened after he (Dumond) raped the Stevens girl before the trial... he was beaten up and castrated by (supposedly.. they were never caught) some of the girl's relatives who had little faith in the justice system but were sure he had done it. That Huck is a fundamentalist is without question, but that would seem to argue against the idea of pardoning or commuting sentences of criminals.
I think he's just got a screw loose in that area.

372 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:54:48pm

Here's the story.

In Brief: The Swiss People's Party pushed a referendum to ban the construction of minarets and it passed. The Swiss people made a foolish decision. The ban will do nothing to halt the growth of radical Islam in Switzerland, if anything it will accelerate it.

374 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:55:30pm

re: #369 Bacchus's daddy

What if I'm an innocent scientologist whose Hubbard-given right to construct a scientology museum in Riyadh has been violated?

I will happily write an angry letter to the Saudi authorities on your behalf.

375 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:55:53pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

How's it different?

376 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:56:02pm

re: #366 Sharmuta

Try the LGF front page...

Sorry, Sharm. I didn't see it. :(

377 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:56:41pm

re: #371 tradewind

He had a pattern of pardoning people if the prison chaplain recommended it, based solely upon their supposed religious awakening, from what I read during the GOP primary.

378 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:57:01pm

The good thing about all this, from anyone but a fundamentalist wingnut's point of view, is that Bible Spice now has a clear shot - with no other major half-educated scripture-thumpers in the field - at failing to become the next president of the United States.

A solid defeat based on her own liabilities is what we need.

379 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:57:03pm

re: #371 tradewind

That Huck is a fundamentalist is without question, but that would seem to argue against the idea of pardoning or commuting sentences of criminals.

Again, please look up the case of James Dobson and Ted Bundy. There's a pretty long history of Christian fundamentalists who forgive the most heinous crimes as soon as the criminal says what they want to hear.

380 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:59:48pm

re: #368 Charles

Will there be any hope they will follow the path of Brian Appleyard?

Global warming is real

[...]

You will be a stern, hard-headed denialist, your iron jaw set firmly against the tree-hugging, soft-headed warmists in their irritating hats.

That was me, once. I thought global warming was all bog-standard, apocalyptic nonsense when it first emerged in the 1980s. People, I knew, like nothing better than an End-of-the-World story to give their lives meaning. I also knew that science is dynamic. Big ideas rise and fall. Once the Earth was the centre of the universe. Then it wasn’t. Once Isaac Newton had completed physics. Then he hadn’t. Once there was going to be a new ice age. Then there wasn’t.

Armed with such historic reversals, I poured scorn on under-educated warmists. Scientists with access to the microphone, I pointed out, had got so much so wrong so often. This was yet another case of clever people, who should have known better, running around screaming, “End of the World! End of the World!” and of less-clever people finding reasons to tell everybody else why they were bad. And then I made a terrible mistake. I started questioning my instinct, which was to disbelieve every scare story on principle.

I exposed myself to any journalist’s worst nightmare — very thoughtful, intelligent people.

I talked to some brilliant scientists and thinkers, [...]

381 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:59:56pm

re: #361 Cato the Elder
Yeah. And it's not even as if they've asked to keep erecting megarets.

382 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

The good thing about all this, from anyone but a fundamentalist wingnut's point of view, is that Bible Spice now has a clear shot - with no other major half-educated scripture-thumpers in the field - at failing to become the next president of the United States.

A solid defeat based on her own liabilities is what we need.

If we build a really tall minaret in Wasilla, Alaska you'll really be able to see Russia from there.

/

383 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:00:35pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

Here's the story.

In Brief: The Swiss People's Party pushed a referendum to ban the construction of minarets and it passed. The Swiss people made a foolish decision. The ban will do nothing to halt the growth of radical Islam in Switzerland, if anything it will accelerate it.

Yes, we know the story. There was a whole post on it here earlier today.

I'm sorry I brought it up here, even in jest.

But now that it's on the table again, allow me to say that it may have been a foolish decision, but it was a democratic one.

I think many Europeans would envy the Swiss that opportunity. Instead they're getting minarets shoved up their asses, will they, nill they, in the name of multiculturalism.

You decide which policy is likely to have worse consequences.

384 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:01:12pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

I do hope you mean a defeat in the GOP primary for 2012.

Anyway, good night, everybody.

385 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:01:40pm

re: #383 Cato the Elder

Yes, we know the story. There was a whole post on it here earlier today.

I'm sorry I brought it up here, even in jest.

But now that it's on the table again, allow me to say that it may have been a foolish decision, but it was a democratic one.

I think many Europeans would envy the Swiss that opportunity. Instead they're getting minarets shoved up their asses, will they, nill they, in the name of multiculturalism.

You decide which policy is likely to have worse consequences.

I'd rather give too many rights than lose any myself.

386 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:02:18pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

The good thing about all this, from anyone but a fundamentalist wingnut's point of view, is that Bible Spice now has a clear shot - with no other major half-educated scripture-thumpers in the field - at failing to become the next president of the United States.

A solid defeat based on her own liabilities is what we need.

I actually agree with you, Cato. I hope Palin runs but is knocked out in the primaries, clearly and decisively. Let the GOP be done with and it'll be a better party.

387 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:02:59pm

re: #385 McSpiff

I'd rather give too many rights than lose any myself.

Me too.

388 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:03:31pm

re: #373 Gus 802

Piece of shit.

389 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:03:32pm

re: #367 Gus 802

Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State.


He's blaming the courts. What a dick.

390 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:03:40pm

re: #379 Charles
Forgiveness in that theology is one thing. It does not preclude or rule out or minimize the idea of earthly punishment. This is what is weird about the whole thing.
Murderers who ask for forgiveness on death row are certainly , in Christian theology, going to receive it. That does not mean they do not go to the death chamber in this life.

391 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:04:26pm

re: #389 Killgore Trout

He's blaming the courts. What a dick.

Passing the buck.

392 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:04:34pm

re: #380 freetoken

Very similar to my change of heart about global warming. I used to be a denier too, until I made a serious effort to actually educate myself and stop swallowing the propaganda of the denial industry uncritically.

That's going to have to be a post tomorrow.

393 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:04:37pm

re: #389 Killgore Trout

He's blaming the courts. What a dick.

He's blaming not just the courts, but everybody except himself.

394 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:05:23pm

re: #393 reine.de.tout

He's blaming not just the courts, but everybody except himself.

Good point.

395 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:05:39pm

re: #388 TheMatrix31

Piece of shit.

This guy was also on the Colbert Report. He should look familiar to most Americans.

Looks like they're going down that road of "cynical defeatism."

396 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:06:05pm

Looking forward for a moment, I am going to enjoy this coming week's headlines.

"Nobel Peace Prize Winner Announces Massive Military Buildup in Afghanistan."

Those of you who think he had no reason to turn down the award, take note.

397 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:06:22pm

re: #389 Killgore Trout

He's blaming the courts. What a dick.

he's part of the system...but we are so stupid...
should we be insulted?...I am
I have zero patience,
like, none

398 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:07:16pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon
Wonder what the answer to that question would have been to the people running down the street while the towers were falling?

399 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:07:22pm

re: #362 Killgore Trout

Are you using the 3% solution you buy in grocery stores or the 35% "food grade" stuff without stabilizers?

That formula or for bog standard 3% from the supermarket.

400 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:09:47pm

re: #322 eclectic infidel

Clemency is legal act that only the President should hold - and even that, within reason.

I disagree as that undermines the federalist structure of our union. If you violate a state law then the head of that state should have clemency rights. Just sad the way it does and does not get used. On the flip side of this coin is that lunatic in Texas and the apparently innocent man he sent to death without reviewing the case.

401 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:10:25pm

re: #380 freetoken

Will there be any hope they will follow the path of Brian Appleyard?

Are you going to post that downstairs on the climate thread?

402 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:10:56pm

re: #398 tradewind

You think 9/11 happened because we had too many rights?

403 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:12:27pm

re: #398 tradewind

Wonder what the answer to that question would have been to the people running down the street while the towers were falling?

Isn't that a little bit like saying had we been a little bit more intolerant 9/11 wouldn't have happened? What about the Al Qaeda report of 1996? Or the fact that the hijackers were already here illegally on expired visas and such.

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:13:08pm

re: #379 Charles

Again, please look up the case of James Dobson and Ted Bundy. There's a pretty long history of Christian fundamentalists who forgive the most heinous crimes as soon as the criminal says what they want to hear.

Interesting that what they seem to most have taken from Bundy is that he blamed his actions on pornography.

405 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:13:08pm

re: #402 McSpiff

You think 9/11 happened because we had too many rights?

No. It happened because we had too few agents keeping track of so-called Saudi "students".

Which is still very much the case.

406 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:13:40pm

re: #402 McSpiff

You think 9/11 happened because we had too many rights?

no, 9/11 happened because we are too nice, we don't profile so people get killed for it

407 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:14:33pm

re: #403 Gus 802

Hah! Advocate strong borders, strong enforcement of visas, borders, etc and you get the X word shot at you
Xenophobe.

408 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:15:22pm

re: #398 tradewind

Wonder what the answer to that question would have been to the people running down the street while the towers were falling?

Hopefully, their answer did not change because of 9/11. Here, we don't discriminate on the basis of religion and as a result we don't prohibit the building of religious structures simply because some of that religion's adherents are rotten.

409 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:15:40pm

re: #362 Killgore Trout

re: #362 Killgore Trout

Physan is also a useful tool. Algecide, fungicide. Suitable for plant crops.
I don't know about food crops...

410 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:15:55pm

re: #399 Bagua

That formula or for bog standard 3% from the supermarket.

I've been reading that some of the stabilizers they use for the 3% stuff from the supermarket can be toxic. I have a few bottles laying around and they don't list exactly which stabilizer they're using. I use the 35% stuff for cleaning out cracks on old cellos for work. I'll buy some more to try in the garden and write it off as a business expense.

411 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:16:09pm

re: #402 McSpiff
Not at all. Please don't distort my response... what I mean is that there are times, such as in a national emergency, when individual rights may have to be temporarily altered to protect the rights of the public as a whole. I suppose martial law would be an example. It is a necessity that this be available to our government in a true emergency. It doesn't mean that in normal life anyone's rights should be abridged.

412 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:16:15pm

re: #407 Rightwingconspirator

Hah! Advocate strong borders, strong enforcement of visas, borders, etc and you get the X word shot at you
Xenophobe.

Tea Party!

/

413 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:16:50pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon
I was speaking of asking the question in the immediate aftermath and panic.

414 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:17:12pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, their answer did not change because of 9/11. Here, we don't discriminate on the basis of religion and as a result we don't prohibit the building of religious structures simply because some of that religion's adherents are rotten.

so what do we do?..we PC ourselves to death

415 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:17:19pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, their answer did not change because of 9/11. Here, we don't discriminate on the basis of religion and as a result we don't prohibit the building of religious structures simply because some of that religion's adherents are rotten.

But zoning laws might prohibit a tall, skinny tower.

Denying a building permit for minarets does not equal denying one for a mosque.

Some people don't get that.

416 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:17:58pm

re: #413 tradewind

I was speaking of asking the question in the immediate aftermath and panic.

Fear will make people do all kinds of things. That doesn't mean that decisions made out of fear are good ones.

417 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:28pm

re: #414 albusteve

We PCed ourselves to multiple deaths on November 5th, 2009.

418 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:34pm

re: #414 albusteve

so what do we do?..we PC ourselves to death

Maybe we should have let Maj. Hasan have his own minaret on wheels.

419 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:44pm

re: #413 tradewind

I was speaking of asking the question in the immediate aftermath and panic.

I can't speak for others, but I would hope that I would be clearheaded enough to hold true to our nations values. Our traditions of tolerance and freedom have made us strong and prosperous and we would be wise not to abandon them.

420 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:44pm

re: #410 Killgore Trout

The Costco Hydrogen Peroxide I looked at for you, lists "purified water" As the inactive ingredient.

421 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:18:47pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon
Yeah. The people in London are seriously rethinking that right now that the proposed megamosque is threatening to overshadow their Olympic stadium. Not going to be good for the camera angles at all.

422 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:04pm

re: #409 Floral Giraffe

Physan looks interesting and probably safe but they don't really tell you what's in it.

423 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:04pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

But zoning laws might prohibit a tall, skinny tower.

Denying a building permit for minarets does not equal denying one for a mosque.

Some people don't get that.

Denying building permits only for tall skinny towers that are also minarets is different from denying building permits only for tall skinny towers.

424 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:19pm

re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist

Fear will make people do all kinds of things. That doesn't mean that decisions made out of fear are good ones.

That's why Beck's ideal time was 9/12. When everyone was fearful.

425 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:37pm

re: #418 Cato the Elder

Maybe we should have let Maj. Hasan have his own minaret on wheels.

sort of a traveling, town to town gig...

426 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:43pm

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

Denying building permits only for tall skinny towers that are also minarets is different from denying building permits only for tall skinny towers.

Perhaps.

I really don't care.

427 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:19:53pm

re: #411 tradewind

Not at all. Please don't distort my response... what I mean is that there are times, such as in a national emergency, when individual rights may have to be temporarily altered to protect the rights of the public as a whole. I suppose martial law would be an example. It is a necessity that this be available to our government in a true emergency. It doesn't mean that in normal life anyone's rights should be abridged.

Yes. But up until 9/11 we weren't in a state of emergency. So in that regard you're comment is akin to being ex post facto. I see your point in a more profound sense I reckon.

428 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:20:07pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

But zoning laws might prohibit a tall, skinny tower.

Denying a building permit for minarets does not equal denying one for a mosque.

Some people don't get that.

Then really what's the point? The goal is to deny a muslim house of worship, let's be honest. It's not a zoning issue.

429 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:20:16pm

re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
Let me try this one more time.
If you are running for your life in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, are you going to object if an FBI agent wants to search a building just then without a warrant?
Me, not so much.

430 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:20:52pm

re: #424 recusancy
Then again, there was 9/10. When everyone was ignorant.

431 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:21:24pm

re: #420 Floral Giraffe

The Costco Hydrogen Peroxide I looked at for you, lists "purified water" As the inactive ingredient.

It should also say something like "with stabilizers" somewhere. Hydrogen peroxide degrades when diluted past 30%. The 3% stuff has to have stabilizers added.

432 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:21:43pm

re: #422 Killgore Trout

The plant folks I've been around for 25 years LOVE it.
Just wear protective glasses, it's HELL on the eyes.
Even a tiny splash. I was introduced to it as "the only chemical you will ever use on you plants that doesn't stink"!
Let me go grab a bottle. BRB

433 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:21:44pm

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

Denying building permits only for tall skinny towers that are also minarets is different from denying building permits only for tall skinny towers.

oh my...better clean up the semantics eh?...make it more PC?...I agree, no religious towers for Quakers

434 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:21:47pm

re: #425 albusteve
No worries... he's going to get his own circus.

435 Irenicum  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:21:59pm

re: #117 Alouette

HE'BREW. Just like the one I had last night!

436 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:22:04pm

re: #274 Sharmuta

It's only a hunch, but I suspect the horse they're backing is Palin, and Huckabee would have taken votes from her. Sarah's their horse in this race and whatever hurts her competition is good for them.

Exactly...the hard right knows now that Huckabee is a non-starter as a POTUS candidate for 2012 (given his performance in the primaries last year, but especially after the media turns this Clemmons affair into his "Willie Horton", which they should), but Palin is their new "great white hope" (barring any HUGE gaffes from her between now and 2012, and I'm not holding my breath on that prospect).

Too bad Huckabee can't be held criminally or civilly liable for what Clemmons has done since he was given clemency...the loss of his political future just ain't enough.

437 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:22:13pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

Why didn't you say you didn't care in the first place...instead of making really bad excuses up?

438 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:22:24pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

But zoning laws might prohibit a tall, skinny tower.

Denying a building permit for minarets does not equal denying one for a mosque.

Some people don't get that.

I get it and I'm not against existing zoning laws blocking construction of a minaret. But what the Swiss did was a blanket ban. Such an act will likely be taken by Muslims as a slap across the face and that is not a good thing. Al Qaeda will use this to recruit and raise money.

439 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:23:00pm

re: #424 recusancy

That's why Beck's ideal time was 9/12. When everyone was fearful.

Sure. People were in shock. Everything seemed very clear. But that's not wisdom, that's the focus that comes from having your arm broken. Just because you're in pain doesn't mean you're thinking rationally. Quite the opposite, in fact.

440 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:23:07pm

re: #428 Cineaste

Then really what's the point? The goal is to deny a muslim house of worship, let's be honest. It's not a zoning issue.

No, smart boy. No mosques were prohibited in Switzerland. Only minarets.

The Koran does not specify any particular architecture for a masjid.

441 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:23:31pm

re: #429 tradewind

Let me try this one more time.
If you are running for your life in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, are you going to object if an FBI agent wants to search a building just then without a warrant?
Me, not so much.

What about if that same FBI agent locks you up because you're dark skinned and might be a muslim? Where are you drawing the line?

442 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:23:49pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

Perhaps.

I really don't care.

Yeah, I gather that.

I do, probably because my ox is standing near the ox that is being gored.

The Swiss tick me off.

443 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:24:01pm

re: #392 Charles

Back in the 80's, during the Reagan administration when AGW started to get noticed by some politicians and when serious debates were started on the subject in the political sphere, I shrugged it off. My own response was that it seemed to be not something with which I really ought to concern myself.

Then the politicization heated up, and the burgeoning talk radio business picked up AGW as a topic, especially Limbaugh during the era of GHWB, who lambasted (as he does today) pretty much anything to do with environmentalism. Daily listening to Limbaugh on the way to work sort of skewed my opinion a bit... but also during that time my general outlook regarding society and politics started to change.

As I gradually became more skeptical (perhaps as a sign of getting older?) of the entrenched political beliefs around me I started to become less enamored with the easy solutions that the talkers favored.

Over the last 10 years or so I've looked into several issues concerning the society around me and I've changed my outlook from one of being a scoffer of concerns like AGW to where I now believe we must deal with them rather that pretend they don't exist.

The science of climatology I've never had a problem with... to me it was always that it was not my problem. I guess not that I am older I look back and view myself as having been very self-centered in my youth.

444 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:24:34pm

re: #440 Cato the Elder

I have to say I really respected your comments here for a long time.

But the totally rude and derisive way you have treated those who disagreed with you on this has really changed my mind.

I know you don't care, just wanted to say.

445 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:24:42pm

re: #438 Dark_Falcon

I get it and I'm not against existing zoning laws blocking construction of a minaret. But what the Swiss did was a blanket ban. Such an act will likely be taken by Muslims as a slap across the face and that is not a good thing. Al Qaeda will use this to recruit and raise money.

Al Qaeda uses the existence of Mickey Mouse to recruit and raise money.

And personally, I think it's about time someone gave Muslim arrogance a slap across the face.

446 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:24:44pm

re: #438 Dark_Falcon

I get it and I'm not against existing zoning laws blocking construction of a minaret. But what the Swiss did was a blanket ban. Such an act will likely be taken by Muslims as a slap across the face and that is not a good thing. Al Qaeda will use this to recruit and raise money.

that's the way it goes...do you deny there will be a showdown one day?...the Swiss people have spoken, what about them?

447 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:25:02pm

re: #323 Charles

Huckabee, you self-righteous choad...

448 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:25:03pm

re: #440 Cato the Elder

No, smart boy. No mosques were prohibited in Switzerland. Only minarets.

The Koran does not specify any particular architecture for a masjid.

Ok - so what's the objection to minarets? Outward expressions of Islam?

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:25:56pm

re: #429 tradewind

Let me try this one more time.
If you are running for your life in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, are you going to object if an FBI agent wants to search a building just then without a warrant?
Me, not so much.

In an immediate emergency situation? Probably not. That does not mean we should adopt emergency thinking as a way of life, or not examine that agent's actions when possible.

450 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:26:07pm

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

Denying building permits only for tall skinny towers that are also minarets is different from denying building permits only for tall skinny towers.

I was starting to look into Aesthetic Zoning law before and stopped. That would be the issue here in the USA including the 1st Amendment, Equal Protection Clause of the 14the Amendment as well as the Establishment Clause. Also applicable would be property rights laws.

That law would never pass constitutional muster here in the states. A law could be made limiting the height and width of buildings and/or structures but they could not be defined or limited according to a particular religious group or secular symbolism as long as it meets established community standards.

451 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:26:11pm

re: #448 Cineaste

Ok - so what's the objection to minarets? Outward expressions of Islam?

They really don't go well with Alpine views. In my view.

452 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:26:43pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

I still want that recipe. Not for me. Squirrel aren't kosher. But my GMIL hunts.

I hunt too, it's all about the coconut oil. Problem since I moved down here a few years ago is that the critters are just too skinny around Santa Barbara, makes me feel sorry for 'em and that throws off my aim.

My step family is Jewpanese (no really, jewish-japanese), according to my experience kosher laws often fail when confronted with the evil deliciousness that is bacon wrapped scallops.

453 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:26:45pm

re: #430 tradewind

Then again, there was 9/10. When everyone was ignorant.

No, we weren't. We had information. It was ignored.

454 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:14pm

re: #444 erraticsphinx

I have to say I really respected your comments here for a long time.

But the totally rude and derisive way you have treated those who disagreed with you on this has really changed my mind.

I know you don't care, just wanted to say.

You're just pissed because I bitch-slapped you on the other thread.

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:20pm

re: #433 albusteve

oh my...better clean up the semantics eh?...make it more PC?...I agree, no religious towers for Quakers

So, you agree that this is only about Muslims?

456 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:27pm

re: #442 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I gather that.

I do, probably because my ox is standing near the ox that is being gored.

The Swiss tick me off.

I don't think they care...this vote may make things worse in the short run in terms of pissed off Muslims, but where do you think this whole issue is headed?...Islam and Old Europe do not mix...

457 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:29pm

re: #441 Cineaste
Dark skin equates with being a muslim?
I did not know that. I thought it was a religion, not an ethnicity.
Most of those nineteen hijackers looked fairly 'light skinned ', at least from their photos.
To get back to your question, in the middle of a panic, if someone is swept up in an arrest by mistake, it is unfortunate and can be rectified later. If a terrorist is missed out of fear of PC/protecting rights, it is... Ft. Hood. And can't be undone.

458 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:42pm

re: #435 Irenicum

HE'BREW. Just like the one I had last night!

It's a good concept, but I hate the beer.

459 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:27:43pm

re: #330 Charles

Wow. He's actually going to try to pretend it has nothing to do with him.

Especially when, a governor of Arkansas at the time, he had the final authority to grant clemency and could have withheld it, as he should have with Clemmons (at the very least)...I hope the media (among others) tears him a new asshole for it.

460 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:28:00pm

About those minarets in Switzerland -- these are the blatantly fear-mongering posters that were all over Switzerland in the run-up to the vote:

Image: DSC00284.JPG

461 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:28:13pm

re: #409 Floral Giraffe

re: #362 Killgore Trout

Physan is also a useful tool. Algecide, fungicide. Suitable for plant crops.
I don't know about food crops...

Physan 20 a tremendously versatile Bio-Normal fungicide, bactericide, virucide. Better than H2O2, but many people are adverse to "chemical" products or are using on a food crop.

Used on cuttings or seedlings for damping off and other such bacterial, fungal or viral pathogens it is likely no molecule of the Physan 20 quaternary ammonium salts could be found in the finished crop.

462 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:28:45pm

re: #440 Cato the Elder

No, smart boy. No mosques were prohibited in Switzerland. Only minarets.

The Koran does not specify any particular architecture for a masjid.

True. What the hell does the Koran have to do with zoning laws in Switzerland?

463 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:28:48pm

re: #455 SanFranciscoZionist

So, you agree that this is only about Muslims?

what did I just post?...why are you baiting me?

464 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:28:51pm

re: #430 tradewind

Then again, there was 9/10. When everyone was ignorant.

Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US

465 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:29:30pm

re: #446 albusteve

that's the way it goes...do you deny there will be a showdown one day?...the Swiss people have spoken, what about them?

I disagree with them.

466 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:29:35pm

Here's that Swiss poster again (seems to have disappeared from that first source):

Image: ZZ086E3D1E.jpg

467 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:29:48pm

re: #457 tradewind

Dark skin equates with being a muslim?
I did not know that. I thought it was a religion, not an ethnicity.
Most of those nineteen hijackers looked fairly 'light skinned ', at least from their photos.

Absolutely right, but I seem to recall some Sikhs getting beaten up none-the-less. I'm just saying, that the suspension of rights is a dangerous road to walk down. That being said, I have no problem with proper security measures. I fly El Al and love it.

468 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:30:13pm

re: #460 Charles

dead link I think

469 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:30:17pm

re: #454 Cato the Elder

The only person you've been "bitch-slapping" on this issue has been yourself, buddy.

Your excuses have ranged from "Stop islamic arrogance!!!" to "They look ugly!" to "It's the will of the people" to "I don't care!".

Bottom line: Hope you enjoy the company!

470 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:30:24pm

re: #448 Cineaste

Lots of communities have guidelines for architecture to preserve the historical character of the town. If it's out of place they have the right to not approve the building plans.

471 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:30:55pm

re: #420 Floral Giraffe

The Costco Hydrogen Peroxide I looked at for you, lists "purified water" As the inactive ingredient.

Any "toxin" would also have to be taken up by the plant and then not be metabolised in order to be present in the edible bits.

472 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:30:56pm

re: #451 Cato the Elder

They really don't go well with Alpine views. In my view.

What if they have gingerbread woodwork and cuckoo clocks built into the top that cuckoo the call to prayer?

473 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:31:08pm

re: #460 Charles

About those minarets in Switzerland -- these are the blatantly fear-mongering posters that were all over Switzerland in the run-up to the vote:

[Link: 3.bp.blogspot.com...]

yup, people all over Europe are scared shitless...is there a solution we don't see?, as opposed to more and progressive open violence?...I'm all ears

474 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:31:11pm

re: #430 tradewind

Then again, there was 9/10. When everyone was ignorant.

re: #453 SanFranciscoZionist

No, we weren't. We had information. It was ignored.

What she said.

I certainly wasn't ignorant. It took me ten seconds to know who was behind that shite, even before I turned the teevee sound on.

Maybe in 100 years I'll feel differently, but if a few people have to do without minarets because of the natural distrust Islam evokes in the West, well, cry me a river.

475 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:31:17pm

re: #466 Charles

Here's that Swiss poster again (seems to have disappeared from that first source):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yeah, it was an architectural design issue. Right.

Shades of pro-Koln, Vlaams Belang, BNP, and other far-right European parties. Only in this case it's the ultra nationalist Swiss People's Party.

476 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:31:19pm

re: #464 recusancy
Yeah... damned inconsiderate of them not to include times, dates, and exact or nearly exact targets, wasn't it? Because to do anything about it with such vague guidelines and warnings, we may have had to...interrupt some rights!

477 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:07pm

re: #456 albusteve

I don't think they care...this vote may make things worse in the short run in terms of pissed off Muslims, but where do you think this whole issue is headed?...Islam and Old Europe do not mix...

Old Europe and ethnic and religious minorities do not mix. Which is why I live in California.

478 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:27pm

re: #465 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree with them.

I don't disagree with the people, I disagree with the law, if the referendum is one...big difference

479 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:29pm

re: #473 albusteve

yup, people all over Europe are scared shitless...is there a solution we don't see?, as opposed to more and progressive open violence?...I'm all ears

Deporting radical Imams would be acceptable.

480 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:38pm

re: #460 Charles

About those minarets in Switzerland -- these are the blatantly fear-mongering posters that were all over Switzerland in the run-up to the vote:

[Link: 3.bp.blogspot.com...]

Can't see it.

481 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:54pm

re: #431 Killgore Trout

I don't see the "stabilizers" listed on the label, but the type is pretty dang small.
Physan 20 "disinfectant, sanitizer, deodorizer, fungicide, algaecide, virucide" Listed uses, algea, disinfecting cutting tools, mildewstat, pots, flats, benches, adult plants, house plants, DO NOT USE WITH FISH, birdbaths, swiming pools, fountains, water displays, cut flowers, plant cuttings, seeds & seedlings, trees, lawn, turfgrass, then a laundry list of plants. NO food crops listed.

Hope that helps.

482 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:32:58pm

re: #476 tradewind

Yeah... damned inconsiderate of them not to include times, dates, and exact or nearly exact targets, wasn't it? Because to do anything about it with such vague guidelines and warnings, we may have had to...interrupt some rights!

Join a dictatorship if you want 100% security.

483 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:08pm

re: #463 albusteve

what did I just post?...why are you baiting me?

I'm not. I'm trying to clarify what you think about this.

484 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:14pm

re: #466 Charles

Here's that Swiss poster again (seems to have disappeared from that first source):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Last spring I was in Paris during the political elections and this was the poster of a deeply anti-semitic comedian running. Stunning it was even allowed to be posted outside all the schools in Paris (they are the polling stations).

485 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:24pm

re: #460 Charles

About those minarets in Switzerland -- these are the blatantly fear-mongering posters that were all over Switzerland in the run-up to the vote:

[Link: 3.bp.blogspot.com...]

Because, really, there is nothing to fear but Allah himself.

486 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:35pm

re: #475 Gus 802

Yeah, it was an architectural design issue. Right.

Shades of pro-Koln, Vlaams Belang, BNP, and other far-right European parties. Only in this case it's the ultra nationalist Swiss People's Party.

Absolutely. This was an initiative by the European far right.

487 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:48pm

re: #475 Gus 802

Yeah, it was an architectural design issue. Right.

Shades of pro-Koln, Vlaams Belang, BNP, and other far-right European parties. Only in this case it's the ultra nationalist Swiss People's Party.

Agreed. It was a bigoted law pushed by a fascist party. Switzerland should be ashamed.

/I Hate Swiss Nazis!

488 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:33:58pm

re: #466 Charles

Here's that Swiss poster again (seems to have disappeared from that first source):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Oh, that's CLEARLY about preserving the charming Alpine towns!

489 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:34:10pm

re: #53 Sheepdogess

Just WTF?

490 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:34:19pm

re: #470 claire

Lots of communities have guidelines for architecture to preserve the historical character of the town. If it's out of place they have the right to not approve the building plans.

Absolutely, but I've been to Switzerland and there are no Canton-wide bans on the Golden Arches which definitely are not in keeping with the chalets... Let's not pretend this is something else. It's about Islam.

491 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:34:35pm

re: #488 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess Solvang will need a similar ordinance.

//

492 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:34:56pm

re: #484 Cineaste

Last spring I was in Paris during the political elections and this was the poster of a deeply anti-semitic comedian running. Stunning it was even allowed to be posted outside all the schools in Paris (they are the polling stations).

Vile, no other word for it.

493 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:00pm

The courts are buried in offenders at the same time that their funding is being cut in every state because of the economy. A big piece of that is the so called "war on drugs" with mandatory sentences taking any semblance of discretion out of the judges hands.

Possession of drug charges now make up about 13% of all arrests and much worse approx. 20% of the prison population. Yet anyone with the money and inclination can still find drugs for sale easily, what is it we are fighting against? We routinely release violent offenders early because of jail and prison overcrowding but cannot do the same with drug offenders because of the mandatory sentencing laws.

We have done the same thing with the sexual predator laws with over 710,000 now listed for life, many of whom only mooned a crowd or pissed on a public street. Sheriffs department across the country are begging for funds because they are forced to supervise every sexual felon the same. Which of course means that none of them are properly supervised because the truly dangerous people are now mixed in with many thousands of harmless juveniles and frat boy pranksters.

Did you know that according to the Justice department the majority of sexual offenses are committed by 14 year olds? Thats right, kids playing "doctor" or "sex-ting" each other are now a national sex pervert crisis whose lives are ruined by it and who will remain on the sexual predator databases and supervision for the rest of their lives.

Remember that the next time a politician stands up at the podium and promises to get "tough on crime" or "tough on child abusers" blah, blah, blah... Those peoples election pandering is actually destroying our justice system, their feel good slogan of the moment has actual consequences in the long term. Currently the consequence is that so many other offenses now receive mandatory statutory prison sentences that violent offenders are the only ones free to be released early.

494 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:03pm

re: #481 Floral Giraffe

I'll put it on my list of things to check out. I'm going to experiment with Hydrogen peroxide for a few weeks and see what happens. I don't want to have too many experiments going on at once.

495 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:16pm

re: #486 Charles

Absolutely. This was an initiative by the European far right.

Here's one of the other ads run by SVP:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Make note of the white sheep and the single black sheep.

496 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:38pm

re: #461 Bagua

I used to use Physan on the orchids. Worked, but needed to be used continually for best results.

497 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:40pm

re: #473 albusteve

yup, people all over Europe are scared shitless...is there a solution we don't see?, as opposed to more and progressive open violence?...I'm all ears

As I've asked before: Which do people who moan over the minarets decision think will cause the bigger backlash? Allowing a democratic vote on the issue, or shoving minarets up the rear ends of the European public in the name of Eurabia?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect we'll find out.

498 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:46pm

Fast moving thread for a late Sunday night.

499 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:35:49pm

re: #484 Cineaste

Last spring I was in Paris during the political elections and this was the poster of a deeply anti-semitic comedian running. Stunning it was even allowed to be posted outside all the schools in Paris (they are the polling stations).

That rotten creep Dieudonne has been the subject of several LGF posts.

500 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:36:14pm

re: #495 Gus 802

Hey, if it's the will of the people!
Those black sheep can be SO arrogant sometimes.

/

501 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:36:30pm

re: #473 albusteve

yup, people all over Europe are scared shitless...is there a solution we don't see?, as opposed to more and progressive open violence?...I'm all ears

They could start with actually allowing them into the workforce and society so that they don't wind up with ghettos of unemployed, unassimilated youth begging for leadership.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:36:49pm

re: #474 Cato the Elder

What she said.

I certainly wasn't ignorant. It took me ten seconds to know who was behind that shite, even before I turned the teevee sound on.

Maybe in 100 years I'll feel differently, but if a few people have to do without minarets because of the natural distrust Islam evokes in the West, well, cry me a river.

Ya know, I don't see how taking minarets away is going to help.

Box cutters, possibly.

503 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:37:30pm

re: #495 Gus 802

Here's one of the other ads run by SVP:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Make note of the white sheep and the single black sheep.

That's from 2007, and I believe it's popped up in discussions on euro-fascist propaganda here at LGF back when the VB issue was still new.

504 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:37:50pm

re: #478 albusteve

I don't disagree with the people, I disagree with the law, if the referendum is one...big difference

OK, fair enough. I disagree with the choice they made, and with the referendum passed.

505 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:11pm

re: #483 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not. I'm trying to clarify what you think about this.

I think it is a fucked up mess...but the Swiss have spoken for what it's worth...now the courts will decide against the will of the people or for a minority Islam...it's one thing on the surface and another otherwise...we will see...elements in Europe are rejecting Islam, yet Islam presses forth...I'm just an observer

506 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:12pm

re: #487 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. It was a bigoted law pushed by a fascist party. Switzerland should be ashamed.

/I Hate Swiss Nazis!

The sad part is the bad guys may get more recruits and target the Swiss. The hard right will reply with more oppression, getting more bad guys and on and on. Islam should get neither more or less restriction than other faiths.

507 jordash1212  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:20pm

Isn't it a bit early to start smearing for presidential campaigns?

508 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:20pm

re: #499 Charles

That rotten creep Dieudonne has been the subject of several LGF posts.

He's a scumbag.

509 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:23pm

re: #504 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree with having this type of thing up for referendum.

510 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:30pm

re: #441 Cineaste

What about if that same FBI agent locks you up because you're dark skinned and might be a muslim? Where are you drawing the line?

What does one's skin color have to do with one's religion?

511 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:35pm

re: #503 Sharmuta

That's from 2007, and I believe it's popped up in discussions on euro-fascist propaganda here at LGF back when the VB issue was still new.

Was it? I know I noted earlier that the SVP has been noted by the ADL for anti-Semitic comments.

512 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:38:49pm

re: #485 Cato the Elder

Because, really, there is nothing to fear but Allah himself.

True enough. But I sometimes panic about spiders and swine flu anyway.

513 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:39:35pm

re: #498 Killgore Trout

Fast moving thread for a late Sunday night.

used to be like this every week...hola!

514 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:39:53pm

re: #510 MandyManners

What does one's skin color have to do with one's religion?

Well once you start profiling, what doesn't it have to do with?

515 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:40:24pm

re: #497 Cato the Elder

As I've asked before: Which do people who moan over the minarets decision think will cause the bigger backlash? Allowing a democratic vote on the issue, or shoving minarets up the rear ends of the European public in the name of Eurabia?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect we'll find out.

How about neither. How about we simply apply the local laws as written. I don't want a tower than simply juts out, but neither do I want a blanket ban. In man places a well designed mosque with a good looking minaret could actually improve the area's aesthetics.

516 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:40:43pm

Smart money says that the bulk of these pardons by Huckabee are prisoners who were born again in prison. Charles already pointed out the Bundy - Dobson connection above, but that's not atypical.

517 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:40:44pm

re: #482 recusancy
Good idea, because no one gets shot or hurt in one of those.///
/What on earth would move you to reply ' join a dictatorship'?/

518 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:40:46pm

re: #513 albusteve

Heh. Must be the organic gardening tips and broccoli soup recipes.
/

519 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:40:55pm

re: #501 Cineaste

They could start with actually allowing them into the workforce and society so that they don't wind up with ghettos of unemployed, unassimilated youth begging for leadership.

Yeah, because jobs are going begging all over Europe. The only unemployed people are Muslims.

520 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:41:13pm

re: #494 Killgore Trout

Do you use razor blades, one blade per plant, to protect your plants when cutting from viruses? It's a big deal, among some ornamental plants. There's lots of plant viruses, none affect humans, as far as I am aware, but all affect the virility of the plants. They are aids for plants. No cures.
Razor blades can be re-used. If you're interested...
[Link: www.crittercreeklab.com...]

521 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:42:26pm

re: #509 McSpiff

I disagree with having this type of thing up for referendum.

Yes, the will of the people - a dangerous thing. It should all be decided in Brussels and Riyadh.

522 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:42:50pm

re: #511 Gus 802

Was it? I know I noted earlier that the SVP has been noted by the ADL for anti-Semitic comments.

It's listed on their wiki page as being 2007

523 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:02pm

re: #496 freetoken

I used to use Physan on the orchids. Worked, but needed to be used continually for best results.

Marvelous stuff, really, 1 to 2 teaspoons per gallon solution applied directly to plants, root or leaf. 1 tablespoon to the gallon to clean surfaces, pots, tools, pruning sheers.

524 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:05pm

re: #509 McSpiff

I disagree with having this type of thing up for referendum.

I agree. It's like us having a referendum to allow a home owner to refuse rental to Jews.

525 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:06pm

More nationalist imagery from Switzerland:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

526 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:09pm

re: #506 avanti

The sad part is the bad guys may get more recruits and target the Swiss. The hard right will reply with more oppression, getting more bad guys and on and on. Islam should get neither more or less restriction than other faiths.

Quite Concur.

527 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:10pm

re: #500 erraticsphinx

Hey, if it's the will of the people!
Those black sheep can be SO arrogant sometimes.

/

Now, did the black sheep stab the white sheep, or are they just kicking hm out because some other black sheep...this is so complicated.

528 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:15pm

re: #517 tradewind

Good idea, because no one gets shot or hurt in one of those.///
/What on earth would move you to reply ' join a dictatorship'?/

Only the ones that do something the government doesn't like. You want complete control. Just follow the law as the dictator says and you won't have a problem. You won't have any rights but you'll be very secure.

529 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:24pm

re: #521 Cato the Elder

Yes, the will of the people - a dangerous thing. It should all be decided in Brussels and Riyadh.

My country doesn't use referendums at the federal level, does yours?

530 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:43:48pm

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Heh. Must be the organic gardening tips and broccoli soup recipes.
/

you don't fool me with your mind control recipes...
just kidding

I like a fast thread with everybody yelling at once

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:44:00pm

re: #505 albusteve

I think it is a fucked up mess...but the Swiss have spoken for what it's worth...now the courts will decide against the will of the people or for a minority Islam...it's one thing on the surface and another otherwise...we will see...elements in Europe are rejecting Islam, yet Islam presses forth...I'm just an observer

Thank you. Got it!

532 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:44:07pm

re: #529 McSpiff

My country doesn't use referendums at the federal level, does yours?

No, but I have no objection if the Swiss do.

533 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:44:43pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

Yeah, because jobs are going begging all over Europe. The only unemployed people are Muslims.

If you are going to let them in, which is a choice, then to not integrate them is horrible policy. Unemployment in the immigrant areas vastly outpaces anywhere else. Case in point France, from Wikipedia:

In 2005, unemployment in the banlieues was 20%, while the national average was 10% [7]; in some neighborhoods, it exceeded 40%. One explanation for this is that the general level of education in these areas is well below the national average, which, in a context where it is difficult to find jobs requiring little or no qualifications, is bound to generate high unemployment. According to the BBC, the unemployment rate for university graduates of French origin is 5%; this can be compared to the unemployment rate of 26.5% for university graduates of North African origin. According to the BBC, the inability of educated people who happen to be nonwhite to obtain employment and the connection to documented racism have left many feeling that they face dim prospects regardless of their actions.

534 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:44:51pm

re: #532 Cato the Elder

No, but I have no objection if the Swiss do.

That's what people said about Germany in 1939.

535 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:45:52pm

re: #529 McSpiff

My country doesn't use referendums at the federal level, does yours?

Just look at California - thank god we don't have federal referenda.

536 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:05pm

re: #525 Gus 802

More nationalist imagery from Switzerland:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Those are the kinds of signs put up by fascists in the 20's and 30's. At one time I had thought my grandfather's generation had put paid to those foul ideas. But alas, it seems they only went underground and have now reemerged to bear their bitter fruit of death and tyranny.

537 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:06pm

re: #532 Cato the Elder

Thats all I said. My country doesn't use referendums for a very good reason. They weren't written into the American constitution for a very good reason either. If you think this is the height of democracy, I suggests you do some readings on the issue, some of which written by your founding fathers.

538 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:10pm

re: #527 SanFranciscoZionist

That black sheep built a middle eastern-y looking spire and dared to call it a minaret in Geneva...his crimes were immense.

539 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:33pm

re: #523 Bagua

Marvelous stuff, really, 1 to 2 teaspoons per gallon solution applied directly to plants, root or leaf. 1 tablespoon to the gallon to clean surfaces, pots, tools, pruning sheers.

Dear friend, now gone, used to use "three glugs to the gallon".
LOL!

540 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:39pm

re: #534 Gus 802

That's what people said about Germany in 1939.

Godwin's Law...what did I miss :?)

On the topic of Charles's post, I'm kinda glad this has come out since now Huckleberry won't stand a chance in the Republican primary.

541 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:46:59pm

re: #521 Cato the Elder

Yes, the will of the people - a dangerous thing. It should all be decided in Brussels and Riyadh.

The will of the poeple is only conditionally valid:

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
Thomas Jefferson

542 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:47:31pm

re: #537 McSpiff

Thats all I said. My country doesn't use referendums for a very good reason. They weren't written into the American constitution for a very good reason either. If you think this is the height of democracy, I suggests you do some readings on the issue, some of which written by your founding fathers.

True, true. Hell, they didn't even let us have direct elections of the executive branch!

543 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:47:44pm

re: #537 McSpiff

Thats all I said. My country doesn't use referendums for a very good reason. They weren't written into the American constitution for a very good reason either. If you think this is the height of democracy, I suggests you do some readings on the issue, some of which written by your founding fathers.

bullshit...there is nothing wrong with a public poll over any issue...I suggest you get a grip

544 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:47:54pm

re: #540 BryanS

Godwin's Law...what did I miss :?)

On the topic of Charles's post, I'm kinda glad this has come out since now Huckleberry won't stand a chance in the Republican primary.

We went back to fighting about minarets.

545 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:06pm

re: #540 BryanS

Godwin's Law...what did I miss :?)

On the topic of Charles's post, I'm kinda glad this has come out since now Huckleberry won't stand a chance in the Republican primary.

I'll see your Godwin's Law and raise you a No True Scotsman.

/

546 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:21pm

re: #540 BryanS

Godwin's Law...what did I miss :?)

On the topic of Charles's post, I'm kinda glad this has come out since now Huckleberry won't stand a chance in the Republican primary.

When the political party in question is actually fascist, Godwin's Law does not apply. One has to bring up Hitler and the Nazis just by way of comparison.

547 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:22pm

re: #537 McSpiff

California has done well with propositions. A mixed blessing but on balance, I am glad we have it.

548 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:29pm

re: #537 McSpiff

Thats all I said. My country doesn't use referendums for a very good reason. They weren't written into the American constitution for a very good reason either. If you think this is the height of democracy, I suggests you do some readings on the issue, some of which written by your founding fathers.

I didn't say it was the "height of democracy". I said I had no objection.

Personally, I have no founding fathers. My ancestry goes back to Venus on my mother's side and Mars on my father's.

549 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:55pm

re: #537 McSpiff

There are only 7 million people in the entire country-

550 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:48:57pm

now they are quoting Jefferson...good grief

551 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:49:06pm

By the way - what happens if you want to build one of those onion-domed Russian Orthodox things? It's like a minaret...

552 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:49:27pm

re: #539 Floral Giraffe

Dear friend, now gone, used to use "three glugs to the gallon".
LOL!

That would kill some germs.

To sanitise cutting tools such a razor blades between plants a cup of good old 10% bleach solution should be fine for most applications.

553 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:49:37pm

re: #541 avanti

The will of the poeple is only conditionally valid:

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
Thomas Jefferson

As far as I know, there is no "right" to build a minaret.

554 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:49:41pm

re: #550 albusteve

now they are quoting Jefferson...good grief

The quote seemed on point to me, Steve.

555 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:49:58pm

re: #543 albusteve

bullshit...there is nothing wrong with a public poll over any issue...I suggest you get a grip

Have you ever looked at the requirements needed for a constitutional amendment? I assure you its a well beyond a simple majority vote of the citizenry. Have you ever considered why this is the case?

556 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:50:14pm

How about a dark comedy break? Why Cheney should run in 2012.
O.M.G. Thing is this guy was trying to be serious.

557 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:50:26pm

re: #543 albusteve

bullshit...there is nothing wrong with a public poll over any issue...I suggest you get a grip

Nothing wrong with a majority poll, as long as it's not binding, or if it is, than not oppressive to the rights of the minority.

558 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:50:39pm

re: #543 albusteve


Yeah, you can't have a public pole 'cus that would be, ya know, populist and it's always better if a more educated elite decides things for the hoi polloi...

559 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:50:51pm

hey rubes!...the issue is in SWITZERLAND!

560 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:50:58pm

re: #544 SanFranciscoZionist

We went back to fighting about minarets.

Ahh...don't understand what's so bad about them. Kinda like banning steeples because churches have them. Only purpose I can see is blatant discrimination. Ahh, but I thought the Euros were supposed to be so enlightened. Guess not.

561 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:51:06pm

Gus- here is an old spinoff of euro-fascists parties working on anti-mosque initiatives. Listed is the Swiss People's Party:

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is the issue of the construction of mosques a big issue in other European countries?

Geden: The BZÖ basically copied an initiative in Switzerland, where the Swiss People's Party (SVP) is trying to collect 100,000 signatures so it can force a referendum on getting a ban on minarets written into the constitution. The whole process could take several years, but that's not a problem for the SVP -- if it takes a long time, then it means the issue is in the public eye and being discussed for longer.

We also have a similar case in Cologne, where a right-wing populist group is trying to block the construction of a symbolic large new mosque. There, the mayor, Fritz Schramma, is in favor of the Muslim community having the right to build such a mosque and supports a compromise based on the height of the minarets.

562 Kruk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:51:12pm

re: #550 albusteve

now they are quoting Jefferson...good grief

Would you prerfer Benjamin Franklin? "Those who sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary security deserve neither liberty or security".

563 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:51:21pm

re: #546 Dark_Falcon

When the political party in question is actually fascist, Godwin's Law does not apply. One has to bring up Hitler and the Nazis just by way of comparison.

pro-Koln, BNP, Vlaams Belang...

Oh right. They're anti-Jihadi freedom loving parties.

564 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:51:35pm

re: #543 albusteve

bullshit...there is nothing wrong with a public poll over any issue...I suggest you get a grip

I would be absolutely terrified if we were having this kind of national discussion in the States.

565 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:51:43pm

re: #510 MandyManners

What does one's skin color have to do with one's religion?

Until relatively recently, one's skin color had a great deal to do with the way they were treated under the Mormon faith, and many pastors used biblical quotes in the justification and support of pre-civil war American race-based slavery. That most of us have evolved in our thinking doesn't erase the ugly roots and anachronisms that remain.

566 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:52:37pm

re: #551 Cineaste

By the way - what happens if you want to build one of those onion-domed Russian Orthodox things? It's like a minaret...

They should apply the rule equally to all religions, then, and not permit any places of worship that don't look like swiss chalets- problem solved.

567 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:52:43pm

re: #562 Kruk

Would you prerfer Benjamin Franklin? "Those who sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary security deserve neither liberty or security".

you oppressive imperialists...fuck off Yankee

568 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:52:53pm

re: #507 jordash1212

Isn't it a bit early to start smearing for presidential campaigns?

Smearing?

We are but airing out the laundry a bit. Freshening up, really.

569 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:52:59pm

re: #561 Sharmuta

Gus- here is an old spinoff of euro-fascists parties working on anti-mosque initiatives. Listed is the Swiss People's Party:

Excellent, thanks.

570 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:53:03pm

re: #558 claire

Note : Being educated and even *gasp* "elite" is not a bad thing necessarily.

571 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:53:22pm

re: #566 claire

Hard to apply a law banning minarets to anything other than a minaret id say.

572 TheMatrix31  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:53:26pm

re: #556 Rightwingconspirator

Too bad he's poison by name recognition, because he would beat the living hell out of Obama otherwise.

573 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:53:43pm

The Swiss Army knife I just bought through Charles's Amazon link has a nifty little feature, aside from the Christian cross prominently blazoned on the handle: a tiny Crusader sword with the amazing power of cutting through Islamic whining and Koranic bullshit.

Thanks, Charles!

574 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:54:16pm

re: #553 Cato the Elder

As far as I know, there is no "right" to build a minaret.

Nor is there a right to prohibit it while allowing cross topped, church towers. Clearly a oppression of one faith over another.

575 Kruk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:54:17pm

re: #567 albusteve

you oppressive imperialists...fuck off Yankee

We lost *our* empire a long time ago, old boy. I'm not an American, I just love their ideals.

576 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:54:38pm

re: #553 Cato the Elder

As far as I know, there is no "right" to build a minaret.

Yes, but there is a right to freedom of religion, and that ban violates it. It does not make distinctions about local architecture or zoning laws. It's simply a ban based on fear of what Muslims might bring to Switzerland. And while that fear has some merit, the actions being taken are xenophobic and play right into the Islamist's hand. If you could see Khalid Sheik Mohammad's genuine reaction to this referendum's passage, you would see him smiling.

577 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:54:51pm

re: #566 claire

They should apply the rule equally to all religions, then, and not permit any places of worship that don't look like swiss chalets- problem solved.

Will the imams have to wear lederhosen?

578 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:54:53pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

I would be absolutely terrified if we were having this kind of national discussion in the States.

we will someday...this is just a tuneup

579 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:55:03pm

re: #569 Gus 802

And here- a gift idea for Stacy McCain.

580 freetoken  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:56:00pm

re: #547 Rightwingconspirator

California has done well with propositions. A mixed blessing but on balance, I am glad we have it.

I guess I have just the opposite opinion - the California proposition system has on occasion been a positive, but more often a negative.

581 Irenicum  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:56:04pm

re: #255 Cineaste

Others may have answered already. If so, my apologies. Many on the 'radio' right don't like Huck b/c he's too soft. Too soft on crime. Too soft on immigrants. He smells of 'compassionate conservatism' and the Malkin's, RSM's et al don't want anything to do with that. They're Randian all the way. As in Ayn Rand. Huck has his issues. I don't deny that. But these folks, and their reasons for not liking him, are even worse. To be honest, it's sickening.

582 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:56:12pm

re: #578 albusteve

I don't think we'd ever have this specific discussion, since it would be in gross violation of both the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses. Maybe even the Due Process one too, but I'm not a law professor.

583 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:56:12pm

re: #559 albusteve

hey rubes!...the issue is in SWITZERLAND!

Yep, and it was once GERMANY that had a religious oppression issue.

584 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:56:50pm

re: #579 Sharmuta

And here- a gift idea for Stacy McCain.

It's from Belgium so it's hard to tell if it was a statement. Sure would make a great gift for RSM but I think it needs a grey hat.

585 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:57:06pm

re: #574 avanti

Nor is there a right to prohibit it while allowing cross topped, church towers. Clearly a oppression of one faith over another.

tough titty said the kitty...it will be resolved in court I presume...are you Swiss btw?

586 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:58:05pm

re: #581 Irenicum

Others may have answered already. If so, my apologies. Many on the 'radio' right don't like Huck b/c he's too soft. Too soft on crime. Too soft on immigrants. He smells of 'compassionate conservatism' and the Malkin's, RSM's et al don't want anything to do with that. They're Randian all the way. As in Ayn Rand. Huck has his issues. I don't deny that. But these folks, and their reasons for not liking him, are even worse. To be honest, it's sickening.

Actually, the reasons you cite seem like good reasons to oppose him. Last thing we need is another big government, compassionate conservatism, legislate religion type. Bush Jr was one too many of those if you ask me.

587 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:58:15pm

re: #584 Gus 802

It's from Belgium so it's hard to tell if it was a statement. Sure would make a great gift for RSM but I think it needs a grey hat.

I so totally want to get one for him.

588 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:58:59pm

Federal Initiatives in Switzerland are NOT subject to judicial review, by the way.

This ban will stand for a long, long time.

589 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:59:13pm

re: #583 avanti

Yep, and it was once GERMANY that had a religious oppression issue.

Fallacious example. There is no equivalency.

590 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 9:59:19pm

re: #588 erraticsphinx

Federal Initiatives in Switzerland are NOT subject to judicial review, by the way.

This ban will stand for a long, long time.

Good.

591 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:00:01pm

re: #585 albusteve

"tough titty said the kitty"? Sorry Steve, argument ad poema poematis does not work for you nearly as well as Cato.

592 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:00:39pm

re: #589 Bagua

Fallacious example. There is no equivalency.

The Swiss were certainly complicit in the German example.

593 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:00pm

re: #592 Cineaste

The Swiss were certainly complicit in the German example.

Concur.

594 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:01pm

so every Muslim in Switzerland deserves their own mosque...one for everybody, wherever private property is purchased?...religions rule all facets of civil life?

595 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:06pm

re: #586 BryanS

Actually, the reasons you cite seem like good reasons to oppose him. Last thing we need is another big government, compassionate conservatism, legislate religion type. Bush Jr was one too many of those if you ask me.

Yeah. What we need is John Galt.

Oh, wait. Didn't he quit in disgust and take himself off to some gulch someplace, where nobody really missed him?

Darn. I guess Sarah Palin will have to do.

Oh, wait...

596 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:14pm

re: #589 Bagua

Fallacious example. There is no equivalency.

Really? I see babysteps.

597 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:42pm

re: #591 McSpiff

"tough titty said the kitty"? Sorry Steve, argument ad poema poematis does not work for you nearly as well as Cato.

I knew you wouldn't get it

598 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:01:44pm

re: #588 erraticsphinx

Federal Initiatives in Switzerland are NOT subject to judicial review, by the way.

This ban will stand for a long, long time.

Interesting.

I dare say I do not like having such issues voted on by the public. The unfettered whims of the public was one big reason our founders were cautious to put checks on the House of Representatives, and furthermore made a representative democracy, not a direct one. I think they would have opposed direct decisions by the people. It's too risky.

599 greensoccer  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:02:14pm

re: #15 Charles

Please look up the story of James Dobson and Ted Bundy.

I don't understand your comment. I googled "Dobson and Ted Bundy" and the only thing that came up was that Dobson was the last person to interview Ted Bundy and he said that pornography led to violent pornography and that led to violence. The interview is on Youtube as well as Dobson talking about it and about how people tried to smear him with making money off the interview which he denies. Dobson came across as a religious person who was trying to have some good come out of what was horrible. So what point were you making by your comment because it certainly did not leap out at me?
And Huckabee is saying he is not interested in running in 2012

600 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:02:26pm

re: #596 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? I see babysteps.

First they came:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

601 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:02:35pm

re: #594 albusteve

so every Muslim in Switzerland deserves their own mosque...one for everybody, wherever private property is purchased?...religions rule all facets of civil life?

How is that the outcome of not having a nationwide ban on minarets?

602 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:02:36pm

re: #597 albusteve

I knew you wouldn't get it

That's ok. I post a lot of things here that seem to go right over your head. You get use to it fairly quickly.

603 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:03:03pm

The Swiss: They care so much about freedom and preserving culture that they...did jackshit in WWII for the Jews.
Jackshit in any war, actually.

And they love women's rights so much that they let them vote in 1971! And held out until 1990 in some elections!

The freedom, it burns.

re: #598 BryanS

You're absolutely right.

604 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:03:19pm

re: #598 BryanS

I think they would have opposed direct decisions by the people. It's too risky.

It's called "mob rule" and our Founders made sure we avoided it by protecting the rights of the minority.

605 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:03:44pm

re: #577 SanFranciscoZionist

Will the imams have to wear lederhosen?

Yes, and their women will have to wear Oktoberfest dirndls, the more cleavage the better...

606 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:04:21pm

re: #599 greensoccer

If James Dobson is your idea of a religious person, you may find this blog to be rather uncongenial over the long term.

607 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:04:47pm

re: #603 erraticsphinx

The Swiss: They care so much about freedom and preserving culture that they...did jackshit in WWII for the Jews.
Jackshit in any war, actually.

Hang on, that's not fair. They do protect the pope! ///

608 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:04:53pm

re: #605 claire

Yes, and their women will have to wear Oktoberfest dirndls, the more cleavage the better...

Well, all right. But I think the big foaming steins of beer are right out.

609 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:05:00pm

re: #602 McSpiff

That's ok. I post a lot of things here that seem to go right over your head. You get use to it fairly quickly.

you over estimate yourself...I'm not surprised you would actually post that tho...ego is a lousy bedmate, you end up fucking yourself more often than not...

610 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:05:07pm

Uh, this is the Swiss we are discussing, they have always been insular and separatist in their nationalism, really this minaret ban seems to fit right in. If the majority approved it and the courts uphold it then really in this case I see no need to try to make it my business.

I may not agree with it but they are a sovereign country with their own laws and government, who am I to tell them that their wrong? I don't live there I don't know the issues on the ground and I do not have any inkling of what has caused a majority to vote for this. If they were trying to ban Islam or the building of mosques I'd probably be more engaged, but this? I don't really care about this particularly.

611 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:05:36pm

re: #601 SanFranciscoZionist

How is that the outcome of not having a nationwide ban on minarets?

jihad

612 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:06:03pm

re: #611 albusteve

crusade.

//Do I win?

613 Kruk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:06:20pm

re: #588 erraticsphinx

Federal Initiatives in Switzerland are NOT subject to judicial review, by the way.

This ban will stand for a long, long time.

They are, however, subject to challenge by the European Court of Human Rights in any country that has signed the European Convention on Human Rights. Switzerland is one of those countries, if I'm not mistaken.

614 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:06:22pm

re: #585 albusteve

tough titty said the kitty...it will be resolved in court I presume...are you Swiss btw?

Nope, I simply believe in freedom of religion. I feel if we want to correctly bitch about oppression of Christians in some countries, we can't stay silent when other faiths are attacked.

615 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:06:58pm

re: #604 Sharmuta

It's called "mob rule" and our Founders made sure we avoided it by protecting the rights of the minority.

Agreed. That's the reason our Constitution is so hard to amend and why the Bill of Rights was added to it: so that the rights of all would be protected, even an unpopular minority. We haven't always lived up to those ideals, but we keep trying and we keep getting better.

616 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:07:00pm

re: #594 albusteve

so every Muslim in Switzerland deserves their own mosque...one for everybody, wherever private property is purchased?...religions rule all facets of civil life?

So a ban on minarets will prevent every Muslim in Switzerland from demanding their own mosque?

617 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:07:47pm

re: #610 ausador

I may not agree with it but they are a sovereign country with their own laws and government, who am I to tell them that their wrong?

Who are we to tell the taliban they're wrong?

618 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:08:06pm

re: #611 albusteve

jihad

You think the Swiss are going to stop jihad by banning minarets? They're not actually missiles, they just sort of look like them...

619 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:08:09pm

re: #610 ausador

I may not agree with it but they are a sovereign country with their own laws and government, who am I to tell them that their wrong? I don't live there I don't know the issues on the ground and I do not have any inkling of what has caused a majority to vote for this.

Wouldn't the Dreyfus affair fall in the same category. What about Kristallnacht?

620 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:08:13pm

Since many folks saw the banning of religious symbols in public schools in France and Germany as targeting Muslims, this Swiss vote could be the continuation of such efforts.

621 Kruk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:09:01pm

re: #608 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, all right. But I think the big foaming steins of beer are right out.

Or they would be the wurst for wear?

622 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:09:19pm

re: #614 avanti

Nope, I simply believe in freedom of religion. I feel if we want to correctly bitch about oppression of Christians in some countries, we can't stay silent when other faiths are attacked.

Muslims have not been restricted as to their freedom of religion in Swissland...where did you get that notion?, and why are you trying to impress your belief on someone else?

623 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:09:44pm

Who are we not to tell the Saudis they're wrong?

Oh, wait...we need their oil, so we suck their asses.

Back to bashing Switzerland.

624 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:10:02pm

re: #610 ausador

Uh, this is the Swiss we are discussing, they have always been insular and separatist in their nationalism, really this minaret ban seems to fit right in. If the majority approved it and the courts uphold it then really in this case I see no need to try to make it my business.

I may not agree with it but they are a sovereign country with their own laws and government, who am I to tell them that their wrong? I don't live there I don't know the issues on the ground and I do not have any inkling of what has caused a majority to vote for this. If they were trying to ban Islam or the building of mosques I'd probably be more engaged, but this? I don't really care about this particularly.

Again, many made a similar argument in the 20-30's when the fascists started their special Jewish laws, none of our business. It's the camels nose in the tent.

625 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:10:18pm

re: #616 Gus 802

So a ban on minarets will prevent every Muslim in Switzerland from demanding their own mosque?

yes, that will be one effect I think

626 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:10:57pm

re: #616 Gus 802

So a ban on minarets will prevent every Muslim in Switzerland from demanding their own mosque?

There's a Russian Orthodox church in my old neighborhood. It's an Edwardian row house--very classic San Francisco--but they have attached small onion domes to it, and put in stained glass and a painting of the Virgin over the door. It's very distinctive, and scared the hell out of one of my friends who came to visit, since she thought it was a private residence.

This interlude related to nothing much.

627 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:11:16pm

re: #616 Gus 802

So a ban on minarets will prevent every Muslim in Switzerland from demanding their own mosque?

No. Just "their" own minaret.

628 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:11:26pm

re: #624 avanti

It's the camels nose in the tent.

Perhaps that's how the Swiss see it?

629 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:11:40pm

re: #625 albusteve

Was this a large issue previously? Because if Muslims are demanding personalized mosques, I see an untapped business opportunity.

630 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:11:44pm

re: #617 Sharmuta

Who are we to tell the taliban they're wrong?

Well, that was pretty much where we were right up to the point that their houseguests attacked us.

631 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:12:01pm

re: #623 Cato the Elder

Who are we not to tell the Saudis they're wrong?

Oh, wait...we need their oil, so we suck their asses.

Back to bashing Switzerland.

We suck up even more since Iraq--the previous counterweight to Iran in the Middle East--was toppled by us.

632 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:12:02pm

re: #592 Cineaste

The Swiss were certainly complicit in the German example.

As were the French, to claim a link to Baguettes is a stretch.

Surgeons cut people with knives, to claim a link to axe murderers is fallacious.

The Swiss are not "oppressing religion" by not allowing minarets. The Muslims are still allowed to gather to pray, just not build towers with loudspeakers on them which are a sign of dominance and aggression, not religion.

633 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:13:15pm

re: #626 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a Russian Orthodox church in my old neighborhood. It's an Edwardian row house--very classic San Francisco--but they have attached small onion domes to it, and put in stained glass and a painting of the Virgin over the door. It's very distinctive, and scared the hell out of one of my friends who came to visit, since she thought it was a private residence.

This interlude related to nothing much.

That sound familiar come to think of it.

634 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:14:38pm

re: #622 albusteve

Muslims have not been restricted as to their freedom of religion in Swissland...where did you get that notion?, and why are you trying to impress your belief on someone else?

You must not be following the discussion. One symbol of one faith is being banned over others. I'm a agnostic, so I have no dog in this fight, but I recall this:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

635 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:15:30pm

re: #625 albusteve

yes, that will be one effect I think

Really. Well, that's the goal. The goal of a ban on minarets is to further stigmatize, ostracize, and intimidate the people of Muslim faith in Switzerland.

636 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:15:46pm

re: #629 McSpiff

Was this a large issue previously? Because if Muslims are demanding personalized mosques, I see an untapped business opportunity.

For some reason, I'm seeing a mosque version of one of those plastic playhouses that are big enough to get inside and have a doll tea party, if you're seven.

637 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:16:28pm

re: #632 Bagua

As were the French, to claim a link to Baguettes is a stretch.

Surgeons cut people with knives, to claim a link to axe murderers is fallacious.

The Swiss are not "oppressing religion" by not allowing minarets. The Muslims are still allowed to gather to pray, just not build towers with loudspeakers on them which are a sign of dominance and aggression, not religion.

you could permit the building of minarets while prohibiting them from mounting loudspeakers (which are indeed obnoxious and are used to assert dominance). This law is an overreaction, however. A careful measured response was needed but, as they always do, the fascists decided to go with over-the-top bigotry instead.

638 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:16:32pm

The minarets were never allowed to have loudspeakers or broadcast anything anyway. And, there were only 4 of them existing to begin with.

This was a mob rule decision sponsored by a far-right pseudo-racist party, and something that will never happen in America.

The "first they came for..." analogy is perfectly valid, this is what it is.

639 AMER1CAN  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:16:44pm

A lot of people suddenly "find religion" when they are in jail. When you go to jail for a violent crime, you should just be a number. Who cares what religion you all of a sudden find.

My distant cousin is a hardened criminal who did 25 years in San Quintin and he used to always send my family letters and they were so religious and he was always quoiting scripture, etc etc etc. Well, about 5 years ago he was finally let out of jail. In the span of 5 days he was back on drugs (as if he was ever off) got into a high speed chase with CHP, claimed he had a bomb, and wouldn't you know it, he was right back in jail, and now I believe he has a life sentence because of California's 3 strikes law.

Good riddance. The whole "finding jesus" thing was just a scam he had been basically working for years on the family. Once he was let out he showed he was still just an animal that needed to be locked up.

Funny, we don't hear from him anymore.

640 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:17:20pm

If we're very, very nice and sensitive to the Muslims' every desire now, before they become the majority religion, perhaps they won't tear down our churches and synagogues or build minarets on top of them when they get the chance, like they did with the Temple Mount and Hagia Sophia.

Yes, I'm sure that's how to manage things.

641 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:17:23pm

re: #634 avanti

You must not be following the discussion. One symbol of one faith is being banned over others. I'm a agnostic, so I have no dog in this fight, but I recall this:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

I was following this discussion hours ago while you were playing with yourself...on the contrary you have not been following...you look like a rube, nice going

642 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:17:26pm

re: #635 Gus 802

Really. Well, that's the goal. The goal of a ban on minarets is to further stigmatize, ostracize, and intimidate the people of Muslim faith in Switzerland.

This is their goal.

643 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:01pm

re: #634 avanti

You must not be following the discussion. One symbol of one faith is being banned over others. I'm a agnostic, so I have no dog in this fight, but I recall this:

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Probably also one reasons Muslims are not assimilating into their new European homelands.

644 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:05pm

re: #635 Gus 802

Really. Well, that's the goal. The goal of a ban on minarets is to further stigmatize, ostracize, and intimidate the people of Muslim faith in Switzerland.

yes, exactly...good thinking

645 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:11pm

re: #632 Bagua

As were the French, to claim a link to Baguettes is a stretch.

Surgeons cut people with knives, to claim a link to axe murderers is fallacious.

The Swiss are not "oppressing religion" by not allowing minarets. The Muslims are still allowed to gather to pray, just not build towers with loudspeakers on them which are a sign of dominance and aggression, not religion.

The call to prayer, like church bells can be regulated as a noise nuisance. I'd have no problem with a law that had a logical reason behind it, but this clearly does not. It's pure religious discrimination, just because a segment of that faith is nuts.

646 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:18pm

re: #638 erraticsphinx

The minarets were never allowed to have loudspeakers or broadcast anything anyway. And, there were only 4 of them existing to begin with.

This was a mob rule decision sponsored by a far-right pseudo-racist party, and something that will never happen in America.

The "first they came for..." analogy is perfectly valid, this is what it is.

I saw two of them earlier today. They're rather small. If they aren't even allowed to broadcast religious messages they're not even fully minarets. So now we're talking 4 half minarets so to speak.

647 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:20pm

Bagua's Music Break™


Arabic Drums

Give me your vibrations...

648 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:29pm

re: #632 Bagua

And black people were allowed water fountains, they just couldn't be the same ones used as white folks. Separate but equal and all that. If you have different laws for different religions, you fall foul of that in my mind.

649 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:47pm

re: #626 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a Russian Orthodox church in my old neighborhood. It's an Edwardian row house--very classic San Francisco--but they have attached small onion domes to it, and put in stained glass and a painting of the Virgin over the door. It's very distinctive, and scared the hell out of one of my friends who came to visit, since she thought it was a private residence.

This interlude related to nothing much.

Updinged only because I used to live right behind St. Spiridon's Orthadox Cathedral (that used to be my bedroom view) in Seattle, and even after the cold war ended I had acquaintances that insisted with a straight face that "those people are up to something."

"Those people," WTF?

650 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:18:54pm

re: #640 Cato the Elder

If we're very, very nice and sensitive to the Muslims' every desire now, before they become the majority religion, perhaps they won't tear down our churches and synagogues or build minarets on top of them when they get the chance, like they did with the Temple Mount and Hagia Sophia.

Yes, I'm sure that's how to manage things.

Allowing someone to build a house of worship as they choose is a long way from implementing sharia law.

651 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:19:21pm

re: #640 Cato the Elder

If we're very, very nice and sensitive to the Muslims' every desire now, before they become the majority religion, perhaps they won't tear down our churches and synagogues or build minarets on top of them when they get the chance, like they did with the Temple Mount and Hagia Sophia.

Yes, I'm sure that's how to manage things.

A bit of Islam Anxiety there?

652 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:19:30pm

re: #635 Gus 802

Really. Well, that's the goal. The goal of a ban on minarets is to further stigmatize, ostracize, and intimidate the people of Muslim faith in Switzerland.

And the effect of it will be to push them into the arms of the Islamists. This makes the Islamists case.

Muslim Brotherhood recruiter: "See? That the infidels would pass this is proof that they hate us and cannot be trusted. We cannot rely on their filthy elections, Jihad must be our path!"

653 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:19:50pm

re: #642 Sharmuta

This is their goal.

Exactly.

Deportation.

Almost sounds familiar. No wait, I've seen that before over at Vdare where they're applauding the Swiss when they're not practicing their own xenophobic ideologies.

654 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:20:22pm

re: #640 Cato the Elder

Wait, if that's what they're going to do, why no mosques, no Korans, No Muslims getting in at all???

That would make perfect sense!

655 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:20:34pm

re: #651 recusancy

A bit of Islam Anxiety there?

Not at all. Whatever has there ever been to get anxious about?

656 Kruk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:20:48pm

re: #648 McSpiff

And black people were allowed water fountains, they just couldn't be the same ones used as white folks. Separate but equal and all that. If you have different laws for different religions, you fall foul of that in my mind.

Not to mention that being "allowed" to pray has pretty scary implications. It becomes a privilege, and one that can be withdrawn when the majority decides that you're not allowed to do it anymore.

657 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:21:09pm

re: #652 Dark_Falcon

And the effect of it will be to push them into the arms of the Islamists. This makes the Islamists case.

Muslim Brotherhood recruiter: "See? That the infidels would pass this is proof that they hate us and cannot be trusted. We cannot rely on their filthy elections, Jihad must be our path!"

That is sometimes the unintended consequences when one effectively creates an underclass. It feeds into the Jihadis hands.

658 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:21:21pm

re: #645 avanti

The call to prayer, like church bells can be regulated as a noise nuisance. I'd have no problem with a law that had a logical reason behind it, but this clearly does not. It's pure religious discrimination, just because a segment of that faith is nuts.

The minarets tower over surrounding building and are intended to dominate the sky line. They are generally built next to and in direct competition with nearby Churches.

659 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:22:08pm

It is worth noting that Ronald Regan stayed in the house of the Aga Khan during the summit with Gorbachev in Geneva. But yeah, let's get those Muslims out of Switzerland.

660 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:22:17pm

re: #617 Sharmuta

Who are we to tell the taliban they're wrong?

Right because the Taliban are a democratically elected government of a nation with constitutional protections? No? Ok then I guess we are free to tell the Taliban they are wrong then...

/apples and...uhh...watermelons?

661 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:23:00pm

re: #640 Cato the Elder

If we're very, very nice and sensitive to the Muslims' every desire now, before they become the majority religion, perhaps they won't tear down our churches and synagogues or build minarets on top of them when they get the chance, like they did with the Temple Mount and Hagia Sophia.

Yes, I'm sure that's how to manage things.

OK, if that's what this is about, then the minaret thing is bullshit. Switzerland just needs to deport all Muslims. Simple, no?

662 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:23:05pm

re: #658 Bagua

The minarets tower over surrounding building and are intended to dominate the sky line. They are generally built next to and in direct competition with nearby Churches.

Well church spires are meant to do the same thing. To wit: Notre Dame.

663 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:00pm

re: #655 Cato the Elder

Not at all. Whatever has there ever been to get anxious about?

I'm sure as hell not scared of them taking over the world anytime soon, as you seem to believe.

664 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:05pm

re: #640 Cato the Elder

If we're very, very nice and sensitive to the Muslims' every desire now, before they become the majority religion, perhaps they won't tear down our churches and synagogues or build minarets on top of them when they get the chance, like they did with the Temple Mount and Hagia Sophia.

Yes, I'm sure that's how to manage things.

Have I ever counseled that sort of appeasement, Cato? No, I have not. This law is just enough to anger people, but not enough to deter them from turning Islamist. It is a good thing only for Al Qaeda and its allies. It is a foolish law by any measure.

665 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:13pm

re: #657 Gus 802

That is sometimes the unintended consequences when one effectively creates an underclass. It feeds into the Jihadis hands.

exactly...now what are they gonna do about it?...this vote plays right into the hands of the European supremists and jihad itself...is it a bluff?

666 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:15pm

re: #658 Bagua

re: #658 Bagua

The minarets tower over surrounding building and are intended to dominate the sky line. They are generally built next to and in direct competition with nearby Churches.

1) Check the links people have posted showing the swiss minarets. Only thing they're towering over is smurfs (sorry sharm).
2) Should the state protect churchs's architectural supremacy? I couldn't really care less which is taller, as long as both are within building codes.

667 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:19pm

re: #658 Bagua

Unforunately, the purpose of minarets is not to start a height war with the nearby churches.

668 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:24:20pm

re: #648 McSpiff

And black people were allowed water fountains, they just couldn't be the same ones used as white folks. Separate but equal and all that. If you have different laws for different religions, you fall foul of that in my mind.

Don't be silly, that is a ridiculous comparison. The Muslims, who are predominantly non-citizens in Switzerland, are allowed to drink out of fountains and do everything else anyone else is permitted to do, including assemble to pray.

What they are being prevented from doing is erecting buildings that would dominate a skyline and change its thousands year old nature.

So you are alleging Switzerland is practicing Apartheid? Get a grip.

669 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:25:07pm

re: #657 Gus 802

That is sometimes the unintended consequences when one effectively creates an underclass. It feeds into the Jihadis hands.

They're already considered an underclass in many european countries- they're immigrants, even if they were born in europe. They will never be considered europeans, no matter how many generations they are there.

670 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:25:52pm

re: #660 ausador

Right because the Taliban are a democratically elected government of a nation with constitutional protections? No? Ok then I guess we are free to tell the Taliban they are wrong then...

/apples and...uhh...watermelons?

the Talis are murderous savages...take it or leave it...pretty simple

671 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:26:07pm

re: #662 Cineaste

Well church spires are meant to do the same thing. To wit: Notre Dame.

Yes, and they have been in Switzerland for centuries and are a traditional part of the historic skyline. All sorts of building are blocked because their architecture would be an affront to the historic composition of the buildings.

672 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:26:15pm

re: #658 Bagua

The minarets tower over surrounding building and are intended to dominate the sky line. They are generally built next to and in direct competition with nearby Churches.

There's four of them. How big a problem can this be?

I'm sure local building ords will prevent any future ones from overshadowing significant churches.

673 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:26:31pm

re: #664 Dark_Falcon

Have I ever counseled that sort of appeasement, Cato? No, I have not. This law is just enough to anger people, but not enough to deter them from turning Islamist. It is a good thing only for Al Qaeda and its allies. It is a foolish law by any measure.

Perhaps.

It is also, by any standards, a democratic one.

Personally I find tolerance dictated from above far more worrisome than a ban on skinny towers from below.

674 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:26:58pm

re: #671 Bagua

Yes, and they have been in Switzerland for centuries and are a traditional part of the historic skyline. All sorts of building are blocked because their architecture would be an affront to the historic composition of the buildings.

Absolutely - but that's not what's happening here. Otherwise they would be outlawing the Golden Arches too, no?

675 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:27:17pm

re: #667 erraticsphinx

Unforunately, the purpose of minarets is not to start a height war with the nearby churches.

Apparently you have never read any Islamic history at all.

676 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:27:40pm

re: #669 Sharmuta

They're already considered an underclass in many european countries- they're immigrants, even if they were born in europe. They will never be considered europeans, no matter how many generations they are there.

True. The gypsy class of people in Europe have been through this for centuries. Looking at that signage in Switzerland. Frankly, it would be a disgusting thing to walk around those signs of hate. It's like another world from another time.

677 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:14pm

re: #675 Cato the Elder

My Islamic history is doing just fine, your reasoning and credibility is what's suffering right now.

678 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:26pm

re: #675 Cato the Elder

Apparently you have never read any Islamic history at all.

nirthers...just like

679 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:33pm

re: #675 Cato the Elder

Apparently you have never read any Islamic history at all.

That's why they have zoning laws.

Ironic.

680 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:37pm

re: #668 Bagua

Don't be silly, that is a ridiculous comparison. The Muslims, who are predominantly non-citizens in Switzerland, are allowed to drink out of fountains and do everything else anyone else is permitted to do, including assemble to pray.

What they are being prevented from doing is erecting buildings that would dominate a skyline and change its thousands year old nature.

So you are alleging Switzerland is practicing Apartheid? Get a grip.

There is NO reason to pass a national referendum banning one type of building...unless you're sending a message.

681 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:41pm

re: #658 Bagua

The minarets tower over surrounding building and are intended to dominate the sky line. They are generally built next to and in direct competition with nearby Churches.

Link showing that ? Besides, a competition to who has the highest symbol of faith could be addressed by a simple zoning law, not a ban on just one symbol.
The Mormon Temple near me is so over the top that someone wrote "Free Dorthy" on a overpass nearby. It's way cooler than even the fancy Catholic churches and has a spire that can be seen for miles.

682 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:41pm

re: #639 AMER1CAN
That is very sad. I'm sorry that you have had to go through it.

683 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:29:00pm

re: #668 Bagua

re: #668 Bagua

You do know there have been muslims in switzerland for centuries, right?

684 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:29:52pm

re: #676 Gus 802

The Roma are a perfect example.

685 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:28pm

Mega churches sure are humble. No ego and desires of dominance there.

///

686 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:29pm

re: #680 SanFranciscoZionist

There is NO reason to pass a national referendum banning one type of building...unless you're sending a message.

Quite Concur.

687 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:34pm

re: #683 McSpiff

re: #668 Bagua

You do know there have been muslims in switzerland for centuries, right?

And they only managed to build four minarets in that whole time?

688 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:50pm

Take Egypt as an example, any Church, even one in the desert will eventually have a Mosque built right next to it with a Minaret blasting the call to prayer 5 times a day.

The Swiss know what is going on in their country and in surrounding nations. This is not occurring in a vacuum.

689 AMER1CAN  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:50pm

Are the minarets a political or religious feature?

/try and answer that one.

690 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:31:13pm

re: #687 SanFranciscoZionist

And they only managed to build four minarets in that whole time?

LOL.

691 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:31:32pm

re: #681 avanti

Besides, a competition to who has the highest symbol of faith could be addressed by a simple zoning law, not a ban on just one symbol.

Exactly. They targeted this one symbol, and they did so for a reason.

692 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:31:38pm

re: #683 McSpiff

re: #668 Bagua

You do know there have been muslims in switzerland for centuries, right?

so what?...what's that got to do with minarets?...they are welcome to worship as they see fit, I presume

693 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:32:07pm

re: #688 Bagua

Take Egypt as an example, any Church, even one in the desert will eventually have a Mosque built right next to it with a Minaret blasting the call to prayer 5 times a day.

The Swiss know what is going on in their country and in surrounding nations. This is not occurring in a vacuum.

Egypt is not a good role model.

694 avanti  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:32:11pm

re: #685 recusancy

Mega churches sure are humble. No ego and desires of dominance there.

///

Here's a humble one I drive by often:

Mormon Temple.

695 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:32:24pm

re: #685 recusancy

Mega churches sure are humble. No ego and desires of dominance there.

///

Beware the tu quoque fallacy. One does not excuse one type of bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

696 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:32:56pm

re: #688 Bagua

Take Egypt as an example, any Church, even one in the desert will eventually have a Mosque built right next to it with a Minaret blasting the call to prayer 5 times a day.

The Swiss know what is going on in their country and in surrounding nations. This is not occurring in a vacuum.

Again- they could have dealt with this by using zoning laws. Instead they picked a specific target, and did so to send a message.

697 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:15pm

THE GREAT OMAYYAD MOSQUE DAMASCUS

At the beginning of the eighth century, the Omayyad Caliph Al-Walid controlled the southern Mediterranean and dedicated himself to governing the occupied territories. In 706 he ordered the building of a great mosque, a work which was brought to completion in less than ten years, after having demolished the existing buildings within the sacred walls, among which was the cathedral of Damascus dedicated to St. John the Baptist (see the information sheet on the Greek-Orthodox Church of Damascus [English, Italian]. The only things that were spared were the three towers which were transformed into minarets, destroyed and rebuilt (the Minaret of Jesus, also called the East Minaret, at the corner of the former basilica of St. John the Baptist; the Minaret of Qayt or West Minaret; the Minaret of the Spouse, which is the oldest). The building was covered with marble and mosaics on a gold background; the work was entrusted by the Omayyad Caliph to skilled Byzantine workmanship. The mosaic decorations, according to the iconoclastic norms of Islam, did not include any human figures, but only houses, palaces, floral decorations and streams of water. Originally it was to be 4,000 square meters in addition to a more extensive mosaic decoration, which was never realized. One part was destroyed and another part, hidden under a layer of plaster with the progressive sharpening of the iconoclastic tendency of Islam, was brought to light in 1928.

698 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:18pm

re: #680 SanFranciscoZionist

There is NO reason to pass a national referendum banning one type of building...unless you're sending a message.

Of course they are sending a message.

No Islamisation of Switzerland.

That is clear.

They know the political significance of the Minaret and are putting a stop to it.

699 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:35pm

re: #668 Bagua

Don't be silly, that is a ridiculous comparison. The Muslims, who are predominantly non-citizens in Switzerland, are allowed to drink out of fountains and do everything else anyone else is permitted to do, including assemble to pray.

What they are being prevented from doing is erecting buildings that would dominate a skyline and change its thousands year old nature.

So you are alleging Switzerland is practicing Apartheid? Get a grip.

Like I said upthread, they have no idea of the actual issues or feelings on the ground or why a majority chose to vote for the ban. They are just taking one of the suppositions that they feel is likely, "racism!" or "intolerance!" and running with it.

After all doesn't every issue in every country in the world translate into an easy one word synopsis as viewed by us righteously democratic Americans?

700 claire  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:39pm

re: #669 Sharmuta

They're already considered an underclass in many european countries- they're immigrants, even if they were born in europe. They will never be considered europeans, no matter how many generations they are there.

I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of muslims that integrate themselves into society are having a nice life. I've worked with many of them. The ones that are insular and refuse to speak the language and are not open to French values do contribute somewhat to their own situation. How to get them to integrate? That's the dilemma.

701 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:47pm

I'm out like Zora Folley

702 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:58pm

re: #693 SanFranciscoZionist

Egypt is not a good role model.

Therefore, we must let Muslims run roughshod over the culture of any nation they inhabit, to show how much better we are.

703 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:05pm

re: #692 albusteve

Just cutting off the idea that all muslims in switzerland aren't citizens. Nothing more, noting less.

704 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:09pm

re: #700 claire

Are you in Europe?

705 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:27pm

re: #699 ausador

Like I said upthread, they have no idea of the actual issues or feelings on the ground or why a majority chose to vote for the ban. They are just taking one of the suppositions that they feel is likely, "racism!" or "intolerance!" and running with it.

After all doesn't every issue in every country in the world translate into an easy one word synopsis as viewed by us righteously democratic Americans?

Exactly. The Swiss would be offended once they stopped laughing.

706 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:54pm

re: #700 claire

I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of muslims that integrate themselves into society are having a nice life. I've worked with many of them. The ones that are insular and refuse to speak the language and are not open to French values do contribute somewhat to their own situation. How to get them to integrate? That's the dilemma.

I seriously suspect that some people in this thread have never actually met a muslim.

707 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:59pm

re: #702 Cato the Elder

Therefore, we must let Muslims run roughshod over the culture of any nation they inhabit, to show how much better we are.

So this is all a culture war then? Legislating culture is a good thing?

708 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:35:42pm

re: #706 McSpiff

I was just about to say that.

709 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:36:10pm

re: #703 McSpiff

Just cutting off the idea that all muslims in switzerland aren't citizens. Nothing more, noting less.

Define all. Almost 90% of the Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss citizens.

710 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:37:03pm

re: #698 Bagua

Of course they are sending a message.

No Islamisation of Switzerland.

That is clear.

They know the political significance of the Minaret and are putting a stop to it.

Hmmm. So what is the political significance of banning kosher slaughter?

Seriously. They want no 'Islamisation'? Let them ban Muslims from their precious country. Better yet, let them kiss my ass.

Four minarets in the whole country, and I'm supposed to believe this is a defensive move?

711 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:07pm

re: #693 SanFranciscoZionist

Egypt is not a good role model.

Egypt is THE role model for Muslims and the Arabic world. The same behaviour I described is repeated everywhere Islam becomes dominant.

712 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:21pm

re: #702 Cato the Elder

Therefore, we must let Muslims run roughshod over the culture of any nation they inhabit, to show how much better we are.

No, better to cry like victims and pretend we're under attack by minarets!

713 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:48pm

re: #709 Bagua

Fine, restrict their rights in whatever manner is allowed under Swiss law. But the other 10% should hold the same rights as any other swiss citizen. Thats my only point with that comment, seriously. Just cutting off the idea that "well, we can ban minarets because only foreigners are muslim anyways." Its not true, its faulty logic. Not saying you were using it or anything like that.

714 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:00pm

re: #711 Bagua

No, it is not. You have never lived in a Muslim country.

715 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:10pm

re: #706 McSpiff

I seriously suspect that some people in this thread have never actually met a muslim.

I have met some really WEIRD Muslims in my day.

716 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:14pm

re: #712 SanFranciscoZionist

No, better to cry like victims and pretend we're under attack by minarets!

Have you every been to Switzerland? Know its cities and culture?

717 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:14pm

re: #706 McSpiff

I seriously suspect that some people in this thread have never actually met a muslim.

I have. Moroccans, Egyptians, Turkish. All the time during my rounds having lived in large cities for most of my life. They're like all the other people I meet. My neighbor just head off to Abu Dhabi and said good bye to him the other day. He said it's just like Manhattan.

718 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:34pm

re: #709 Bagua

Define all. Almost 90% of the Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss citizens.

Why?

719 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:40:06pm

Here is a peek at euro-fascists thinking:

- But it's not about that. It's about that the emancipation process of the immigrant community is as necessary today as that of the Flemish, the workers and the women was in the 20th century. They also had to force equal rights.

DEWINTER: There's a big difference. We play at home. On our own field.

- Whoever is born as a Moroccan Belgian also plays at home.

DEWINTER: That foreigner doesn't play at home. That foreigner is a guest here, should act like a guest. There are many guests who stay longer, but they are still guests. They must understand..

- Whoever is born here is not a guest. That is their land just as well as it's yours

DEWINTER: I always think that a cat born in a fish shop is not a fish just because of that - to express it plastically. It takes maybe a few generation before people are completely assimilated. But that is the intention in the end: Be a Fleming among Flemish. But than we should also make an effort on our side to make it clear to them . And we don't do that.

720 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:40:22pm

re: #717 Gus 802

I have. Moroccans, Egyptians, Turkish. All the time during my rounds having lived in large cities for most of my life. They're like all the other people I meet. My neighbor just head off to Abu Dhabi and said good bye to him the other day. He said it's just like Manhattan.

In my experience, the only equal to muslim hospitality is jewish hospitality.

721 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:40:27pm

re: #713 McSpiff

Fine, restrict their rights in whatever manner is allowed under Swiss law. But the other 10% should hold the same rights as any other swiss citizen. Thats my only point with that comment, seriously. Just cutting off the idea that "well, we can ban minarets because only foreigners are muslim anyways." Its not true, its faulty logic. Not saying you were using it or anything like that.

So building Minarets is now a "right"? What kind of right is that and where is this written.

722 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:40:28pm

re: #711 Bagua

Egypt is THE role model for Muslims and the Arabic world. The same behaviour I described is repeated everywhere Islam becomes dominant.

Unfortunately that is true. Would you say we should adopt their political system as well--to protect us from Islamisation?

724 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:41:32pm

Apparently, the only people in the world who still have an absolute right to any culture of their own are Muslims. Whether they live in a Muslim country and ban all other cultural/religious displays, or whether they live in a country with an entirely different culture, architecture, history, religious background, and political structure, they must not be interfered with, or else you're a racist, eliminationist, supremacist shite.

Understood.

I'm for bed.

725 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:41:35pm

re: #711 Bagua

Egypt is THE role model for Muslims and the Arabic world. The same behaviour I described is repeated everywhere Islam becomes dominant.

Let me clarify: Egypt is not a good role model for democratic, enlightened nations, under which rubric I would normally be tempted to include Switzerland.

726 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:27pm

re: #720 McSpiff

In my experience, the only equal to muslim hospitality is jewish hospitality.

I never had the pleasure. Did go to a Jewish wedding once which was fun. My cousin was married to a Turkish man.

727 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:29pm

re: #716 Bagua

Have you every been to Switzerland? Know its cities and culture?

I have never been to Switzerland. Have you?

728 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:38pm

re: #721 Bagua

Not saying it is. My only point was that the discussion should take place within the framework of everyone being equal citizens before the law. Because there are muslims, born in switzerland, to swiss parents.

729 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:53pm

re: #717 Gus 802

I have. Moroccans, Egyptians, Turkish. All the time during my rounds having lived in large cities for most of my life. They're like all the other people I meet. My neighbor just head off to Abu Dhabi and said good bye to him the other day. He said it's just like Manhattan.

Except it's not. You won't find any synagogues there.

730 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:04pm

re: #724 Cato the Elder

Sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite!

731 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:04pm

re: #718 SanFranciscoZionist

Why?

Because most of the 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss. They are guest workers, mostly from former Yugoslavia and Turkey. Only about 4% have Swiss citizenship from birth.

732 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:18pm

re: #714 erraticsphinx

No, it is not. You have never lived in a Muslim country.

He does have a point, ES. Whenever Islam becomes dominant, Islamic Radicals start throwing their weight around and they are often not stopped. See Indonesia as an example. We shouldn't ban minarets, but Islam does need to reform itself.

733 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:34pm

re: #724 Cato the Elder

Apparently, the only people in the world who still have an absolute right to any culture of their own are Muslims. Whether they live in a Muslim country and ban all other cultural/religious displays, or whether they live in a country with an entirely different culture, architecture, history, religious background, and political structure, they must not be interfered with, or else you're a racist, eliminationist, supremacist shite.

Understood.

I'm for bed.

You are saying it is ok to pass national laws banning the culture/symbols of a group so long as you perceive them as threatening?

734 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:41pm

re: #729 Cato the Elder

Except it's not. You won't find any synagogues there.

I know that. That's life. Doesn't mean we have to be like them in all respects. Things take time.

735 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:46pm

re: #722 BryanS

Unfortunately that is true. Would you say we should adopt their political system as well--to protect us from Islamisation?

Who is this "we" paleface, the Swiss? The Dutch?

736 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:33pm

So... muslim countries should be religiously tolerant, but not the Swiss?

737 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:53pm

re: #723 recusancy

Most Muslims in Switzerland are from former Yugoslavia (56.4%; especially Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, the Republic of Macedonia and the Sandžak region) and Turkey (20.2%)[4].

Not exactly regions known for their fanaticism. Jesus, they're banning minarets to save themselves from the BOSNIANS?

Is it hard for immigrants to become Swiss citizens?

738 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:54pm

re: #731 Bagua

Thats 16,000 people. More than enough for one congregation I'd say.

739 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:46:14pm

re: #732 Dark_Falcon

I absolutely agree, Islam must be reformed. But this type of ban is working backwards in this regard. And when you look at the people behind it, freedom of expression, women's rights etc etc are NOT what they are doing this for.

re: #737 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, I believe so. Swiss citizenship requirements are pretty tough.

740 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:46:45pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

Let me clarify: Egypt is not a good role model for democratic, enlightened nations, under which rubric I would normally be tempted to include Switzerland.

So why will you require Switzerland to submit to the same Islamic subjugation process that destroyed Egypt and made its indigenous population a persecuted minority?

741 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:25pm

re: #724 Cato the Elder

Apparently, the only people in the world who still have an absolute right to any culture of their own are Muslims. Whether they live in a Muslim country and ban all other cultural/religious displays, or whether they live in a country with an entirely different culture, architecture, history, religious background, and political structure, they must not be interfered with, or else you're a racist, eliminationist, supremacist shite.

Understood.

I'm for bed.

That's not the point.

742 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:38pm

re: #735 Bagua

Who is this "we" paleface, the Swiss? The Dutch?

Speaking as an American. But the same question should be asked of any liberal (int eh classic sense) democracy. You really think Egypt, or any Arabic speaking country, is a great example to emulate with regards to religious tolerance?

743 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:38pm

re: #740 Bagua

So Islam conquered Egypt because of...minarets?
Seriously?

744 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:48:32pm

re: #737 SanFranciscoZionist

Not exactly regions known for their fanaticism. Jesus, they're banning minarets to save themselves from the BOSNIANS?

Is it hard for immigrants to become Swiss citizens?

It case you missed it, the former Yugoslavia has been the site of the worst European civil wars since WWII. All of much has Muslims as at least one combatant party.

745 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:48:35pm

I mean, I've met a lot of Bosnians. Fanatics they ain't.

746 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:49:28pm

re: #740 Bagua

So why will you require Switzerland to submit to the same Islamic subjugation process that destroyed Egypt and made its indigenous population a persecuted minority?

You call minarets subjugation?

747 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:04pm

re: #740 Bagua

So why will you require Switzerland to submit to the same Islamic subjugation process that destroyed Egypt and made its indigenous population a persecuted minority?

Holy shit, you're serious, aren't you?

When, pray tell, did this Islamic subjegation process take place? And could it have been avoided by banning minarets?

748 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:42pm

re: #745 SanFranciscoZionist

I mean, I've met a lot of Bosnians. Fanatics they ain't.

And it's not like they're out to conquer the world. There was kinda of a war thingy going on where they are coming from.

Also... Those numbers are from 2000 so who knows what the stats are today.

749 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:33pm

re: #742 BryanS

Speaking as an American. But the same question should be asked of any liberal (int eh classic sense) democracy. You really think Egypt, or any Arabic speaking country, is a great example to emulate with regards to religious tolerance?

Well, I'm talking about Switzerland and the law there. Big difference.

And as I explained, Egypt and the other Muslim nations are most certainly the example that is being emulated as Muslims spread into other nations. Minaret building to dominate the skyline, harass the infidels and aggravate Church goers is the standard tactic used over and over again.

The Swiss are saying no. It is their right.

750 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:48pm

re: #744 Bagua

It case you missed it, the former Yugoslavia has been the site of the worst European civil wars since WWII. All of much has Muslims as at least one combatant party.

If we're going there, Christians don't come out looking too good. Let's don't go there.

751 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:49pm

re: #740 Bagua

So why will you require Switzerland to submit to the same Islamic subjugation process that destroyed Egypt and made its indigenous population a persecuted minority?

That's not what she said. We need to resist the tactic of using architecture in hostile manner with sane zoning rules and good sense. Ban using loudspeakers for calls to prayer, but don't pass laws that serve only to serve notice to people that they are unwelcome. We have to fight, you're right, but we have to fight smart. It is in that regard that I dislike this law as much as its bigotry. Itwill not do what it is supposed to do, at it will make things worse.

752 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:52:30pm

As someone who has met muslims who have left their home countries due to intolerance, saying "Hell no, we won't be tolerant until your home countries show the same!" is either ironic or sad. I can't decide.

753 recusancy  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:52:36pm

re: #749 Bagua

Well, I'm talking about Switzerland and the law there. Big difference.

And as I explained, Egypt and the other Muslim nations are most certainly the example that is being emulated as Muslims spread into other nations. Minaret building to dominate the skyline, harass the infidels and aggravate Church goers is the standard tactic used over and over again.

The Swiss are saying no. It is their right.

Most Christian groups were against this referendum.

754 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:53:57pm

re: #749 Bagua


You have jumped the shark, and then ate it, and then jumped another one.

755 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:54:09pm

re: #740 Bagua

So why will you require Switzerland to submit to the same Islamic subjugation process that destroyed Egypt and made its indigenous population a persecuted minority?

Silly man. There is no threat from Islam. It was all a joke. After all, Salman Rushdie is still alive and writing and banging supermodels, isn't he? Don't mention that bit about his Japanese translator, please - someone didn't get the memo.

Anyway, anyone who says there is any threat of any kind is only producing a threat where there was none before. Out of thin air. Because there is no threat, see, unless you say there is one, in which case we'll burn your flags, embassies, citizens and constitutions in effigy. Until we can get at the real thing. Meanwhile we'll just burn your cars.

And now I'm really gone.

756 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:55:13pm

Goodnight, lizards!
I hope you can solve the problems of the world, before I awake, tomorrow!
Please, do, keep trying!

757 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:07pm

re: #755 Cato the Elder

I was in NY during 9/11, so your general asshole behavior is really not appreciated.

I'm not as blinded by hatred as you are, thankfully I can see a Muslim friend and not immediately think he's going to kill me. Aren't I lucky?

758 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:09pm

re: #747 SanFranciscoZionist

Holy shit, you're serious, aren't you?

When, pray tell, did this Islamic subjegation process take place? And could it have been avoided by banning minarets?

Always, Mosques are built on the ruins of Churches and Temples, or if not destroyed, then right next door. It is a very "in your face" tactic and it was done all throughout the Muslim conquest in all the nations whose cultures where destroyed or relegated to Dhimmi status.

re: #752 McSpiff

As someone who has met muslims who have left their home countries due to intolerance, saying "Hell no, we won't be tolerant until your home countries show the same!" is either ironic or sad. I can't decide.

Most of those fleeing Muslim countries are also fleeing the Islamic oppression, they don't have a need to replicate the oppression in countries in which they are guest workers.

759 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:12pm

OK, here I am searching. This is what I found for Abu Dhabi so far:

Mosques and Other Places of Worship

Arab Evangelical Church
Evangelical Community Centre
St. George Orthodox Church
St. Joseph’s Roman Catholic Church
St. Mary’s Catholic Church (Al Ain)

Didn't see a synagogue but some mentioned one in a discussion group.

760 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:27pm

re: #755 Cato the Elder

Silly man, there is no threat from the Irish. After all, Tony Blair is still alive and banging his lovely wife isn't he? Don't mention that bit about the grenade attack on 10 Downing street, please - someone didn't get the memo.

//

761 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:38pm

re: #749 Bagua

Well, I'm talking about Switzerland and the law there. Big difference.

And as I explained, Egypt and the other Muslim nations are most certainly the example that is being emulated as Muslims spread into other nations. Minaret building to dominate the skyline, harass the infidels and aggravate Church goers is the standard tactic used over and over again.

The Swiss are saying no. It is their right.

Not for me to say what the Swiss's rights are, but that is ridiculous. Shall I claim Christianity is subjugating me because I drive by a public display of Christmas lights on public park grounds every day? Am I subjugated by the church bells that ring--reminding me constantly of their presence.

762 GreenSoccer  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:44pm

re: #606 Cato the Elder
Great now I don't understand your comment.
If Dobson does not reflect a religious person, who does, aside from the Dalai Lama whom President Obama chose not to meet?

763 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:58:19pm

re: #761 BryanS

Not for me to say what the Swiss's rights are, but that is ridiculous. Shall I claim Christianity is subjugating me because I drive by a public display of Christmas lights on public park grounds every day? Am I subjugated by the church bells that ring--reminding me constantly of their presence.

Those Lutherans are really oppressing me with all their pot-luck dinners and BINGO.

764 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:58:23pm

re: #757 erraticsphinx

I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were in New York on 9/11.

As everybody knows, that exempts you from everything, including arguing lucidly, for the rest of your life.

765 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:59:04pm

re: #758 Bagua

Most of those fleeing Muslim countries are also fleeing the Islamic oppression, they don't have a need to replicate the oppression in countries in which they are guest workers.

So now we come to an impasse. Either those Muslims who flee are replicating their oppression by the construction of minarets, or minarets aren't actually tools of oppression.

766 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:14:39pm

All this righteous indignation an ocean away is amusing.

The Swiss can look right next door at Paris and see all the "no go areas" where even the Police and Firemen are afraid to go without special squads. The nightly Carbaques, riots and unrest. Same is developing in Germany, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, etc.

And McSpiff, the Muslims in Switzerland are not "fleeing oppression" they are seeking better economic conditions for the most part. They don't need to build Minarets everywhere they go.

767 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:15:57pm

re: #762 GreenSoccer

Great now I don't understand your comment.
If Dobson does not reflect a religious person, who does, aside from the Dalai Lama whom President Obama chose not to meet?

I can think of a few, but since you seem to like Dobson, stick with him. Maybe it's just me, personally, but when he reflects on his reflection in a mirror, I don't think is reflected back at him reflects a religious person.

But then again you may like charlatans and guys who get off on beating children.

768 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:16:23pm

Lost my connection here but everywhere else was fine.

Was going to say that I checked the State Department and confirmed that there no synagogues in Abu Dhabi.

Anyway, I come from the school of thought in which we should know better. If at times the world seems uncivilized we should know that we remain civilized ourselves and not descend into the fire pit of ignorance and intolerance by meeting it with equal intolerance and ignorance.

769 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:17:21pm

re: #732 Dark_Falcon

He does have a point, ES. Whenever Islam becomes dominant, Islamic Radicals start throwing their weight around and they are often not stopped. See Indonesia as an example. We shouldn't ban minarets, but Islam does need to reform itself.

This is the meme I have the hardest time with, every time I hear it it is like fingernails being scraped across a chalkboard to me.
Version 1: Islam must reform itself.
As if it was a cohesive movement with all members recieveing orders from one central higher authority?
Islam believes that Muhammed was the "final prophet" of God, there will not be anyone else coming along to change the message of Allah now. In Islam it is a capital crime to claim to be a prophet or to attempt to reinterpret the Quran. It must only be printed and all prayers spoken in arabic, even translations are forbidden unless they also contain the full text in arabic.

There are no authorities in Islam, anyone with sufficent learning of the Quran may call themselves an Imam (teacher). There is no testing or religious authority to say someone is not qualified, that is up to the persons congregation.

Version 2: The moderate Muslims should reign in the fanatics.
Sure just like the Roman Catholic Church should reign in the Protestant end times televangelists?
As said above Islam has no central structure and thus it is impossible, short of religious sect warfare for this to happen. This one in particular grates on me because it really is exactly like they are asking the Lutherans to police the Baptists, it isn't going to happen, it is impossible. Yet they continue to call for it and claim that because it isn't happening that NO muslims can be trusted.

Nothing particular against anything you said DF, well except for the "reform itself" thing, the Wahhabi sect is not going away because we or even majority of Muslims dislike it. It will either persecuted into extinction or die out over time as has happened to many religious sects before it.

770 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:17:29pm

re: #764 Cato the Elder

What the Hell is wrong with you tonight? You keep taking interpretation of other people's words that are clearly not what they were saying and you don't address their points. You seem to think that ES is simply an idiot and that's just not true. Go to bed, Cato and come back once you've settled down.

771 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:18:46pm

We banned the Minarets and killed the blog, who knew?

All Your Minarets Are Belong To Us!

772 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:18:57pm

re: #766 Bagua

All this righteous indignation an ocean away is amusing.

The Swiss can look right next door at Paris and see all the "no go areas" where even the Police and Firemen are afraid to go without special squads. The nightly Carbaques, riots and unrest. Same is developing in Germany, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, etc.

And McSpiff, the Muslims in Switzerland are not "fleeing oppression" they are seeking better economic conditions for the most part. They don't need to build Minarets everywhere they go.

An "ocean away"? When such obviously discriminatory actions are taken for no good reason than to tell a minority they are not welcome, that harms us all.

773 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:19:52pm

re: #771 Bagua

We banned the Minarets and killed the blog, who knew?

All Your Minarets Are Belong To Us!

You Crusader have no chance, make your time!!

HA HA HA!!

774 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:22pm

re: #757 erraticsphinx

I'm not as blinded by hatred as you are, thankfully I can see a Muslim friend and not immediately think he's going to kill me. Aren't I lucky?

Funny, I bet that was the last thing that went through the heads of some of Maj. Hasan's friends at Fort Worth - right before the bullet.

Of course not every Muslim wants to kill me or you. Just a small minority of maybe 200,000,000 million or so, worldwide.

775 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:41pm

re: #771 Bagua

We banned the Minarets and killed the blog, who knew?

All Your Minarets Are Belong To Us!

Heh...yeah. LGF was down for a bit.

776 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:56pm

re: #768 Gus 802

Lost my connection here but everywhere else was fine.

Was going to say that I checked the State Department and confirmed that there no synagogues in Abu Dhabi.

Anyway, I come from the school of thought in which we should know better. If at times the world seems uncivilized we should know that we remain civilized ourselves and not descend into the fire pit of ignorance and intolerance by meeting it with equal intolerance and ignorance.

However, the local sheik has no issue with paying for the renovation of the local church.

Christian church site to get Royal help

ABU DHABI // The Crown Prince has pledged to help fund the refurbishment of the capital’s St Andrew’s Church compound, a group of ageing buildings that draws tens of thousands of worshippers every week.

The announcement that Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, who is also Deputy Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, will “take care of any shortfall of funds” in the project to revamp the complex into a modern place of worship was made by Sheikh Nahyan bin Mubarak, the Minister of Higher Education and Scientific Research, at a Remembrance Sunday service this week.

777 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:51pm

re: #776 McSpiff

Oh that went through. That's around the time my connection got stuck.

Good news you have there. Small miracles.

778 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:53pm

re: #774 Cato the Elder

re: #774 Cato the Elder

Funny, I bet that was the last thing that went through the heads of some of Maj. Hasan's friends at Fort Worth - right before the bullet.

Of course not every Muslim wants to kill me or you. Just a small minority of maybe 200,000,000 million or so, worldwide.

200,000,000 million? No wonder you're so terrified!

779 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:22:20pm

re: #772 BryanS

An "ocean away"? When such obviously discriminatory actions are taken for no good reason than to tell a minority they are not welcome, that harms us all.

A troublesome minority at that, and non-citizen guest minority that insists upon special treatment and the "right" to disrupt the historical architecture and skyline.

They are hardly being told "they are not welcome" they are being told their Minarets are not welcome.

780 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:23:17pm

re: #779 Bagua

A troublesome minority at that, and non-citizen guest minority that insists upon special treatment and the "right" to disrupt the historical architecture and skyline.

They are hardly being told "they are not welcome" they are being told their Minarets are not welcome.

Except for at least the 16,000 citizens.

781 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:23:18pm

re: #778 McSpiff

re: #774 Cato the Elder

200,000,000 million? No wonder you're so terrified!

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Muslim hoards".

782 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:23:39pm

re: #774 Cato the Elder

Go to sleep in a room with Sarah Palin and "200,000,000 million" Muslims.

And now I'm really out, happy bigotry!

783 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:24:09pm

re: #779 Bagua

A troublesome minority at that, and non-citizen guest minority that insists upon special treatment and the "right" to disrupt the historical architecture and skyline.

They are hardly being told "they are not welcome" they are being told their Minarets are not welcome.

Bullshit. What actions did Swiss Muslims take to ask for special treatment, or disrupt the skyline?

784 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:24:18pm

re: #774 Cato the Elder

Funny, I bet that was the last thing that went through the heads of some of Maj. Hasan's friends at Fort Worth - right before the bullet.

Of course not every Muslim wants to kill me or you. Just a small minority of maybe 200,000,000 million or so, worldwide.

Yeah, but you would want Hasan not to face the death penalty and go ahead and tell the world how bad we've been with all the water boarding and such. Stop the minarets but the Iraq War was for oil no?

//

785 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:24:31pm

re: #778 McSpiff

re: #774 Cato the Elder

200,000,000 million? No wonder you're so terrified!

I'm not terrified.

The number of Islamic extremists is variously pegged at 5% to 10% of the population. If there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world today - well, you do the math.

YMMV

786 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:25:07pm

re: #781 BryanS

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Muslim hoards".

Except the word you're groping for is "hordes".

787 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:25:17pm

re: #785 Cato the Elder

I was just enjoying catching the rare typo in one of your posts Cato. Just some innocent fun.

788 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:25:55pm

re: #779 Bagua

A troublesome minority at that, and non-citizen guest minority that insists upon special treatment and the "right" to disrupt the historical architecture and skyline.

They are hardly being told "they are not welcome" they are being told their Minarets are not welcome.

Ohh, well they are troublesome. That makes all the difference in the world.

//

You seem to be making an argument--correct me if I am wrong--that it's ok for the Swiss to do this because they are under siege by Islam. Would such actions be ok here in the US if we had large influxes of Muslims?

789 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:26:12pm

re: #785 Cato the Elder

I'm not terrified.

The number of Islamic extremists is variously pegged at 5% to 10% of the population. If there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world today - well, you do the math.

YMMV

Every Muslim had four wives, every wife had four kids, every kid had one of those pink plastic individualized minarets on wheels--how many were going to St. Ives?

Lizards, good night.

790 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:26:48pm

re: #786 Cato the Elder

Except the word you're groping for is "hordes".

True enough. You do know your hordes.

791 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:26:55pm

re: #783 SanFranciscoZionist

Bullshit. What actions did Swiss Muslims take to ask for special treatment, or disrupt the skyline?

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

792 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:27:59pm

re: #791 Bagua

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

You admitted yourself that there are citizen muslims in Switzerland. You don't get to move the goal posts by now omitting that fact.

793 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:28:15pm

re: #791 Bagua

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

Again?

You mean like this one?

Image: File:Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten.jpg

That's 25% of the minarets in Switzer-land.

794 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:12pm

re: #793 Gus 802

Again?

You mean like this one?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That's 25% of the minarets in Switzer-land.

Look at all of those nice cars too. Place looks clean and well maintained. Looks better than your average American strip mall.

795 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:47pm

re: #774 Cato the Elder

Funny, I bet that was the last thing that went through the heads of some of Maj. Hasan's friends at Fort Worth - right before the bullet.

Of course not every Muslim wants to kill me or you. Just a small minority of maybe 200,000,000 million or so, worldwide.

Wow, two hundred million, million, thats a lot!

/

796 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:54pm

re: #789 SanFranciscoZionist

Every Muslim had four wives, every wife had four kids, every kid had one of those pink plastic individualized minarets on wheels--how many were going to St. Ives?

Lizards, good night.

Zeus: "The Guy, just The Guy."

John McLane: "So what were all those Muslims doing?"

Zeus: "I don't know! Sitting by the fuckin' road!"

- Die Hard With a Vengeance

797 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:30:53pm

re: #791 Bagua

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

So zoning ordinances need to be passed on a national plebiscite?

798 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:33:11pm

re: #791 Bagua

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

I can't wait to see what the Swiss are offended by next and will ban democratically. Maybe people.

799 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:06pm

re: #767 Cato the Elder

ΠΙΜΦ: "...I don't think what is reflected back at him..."

800 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:54pm

re: #792 McSpiff

You admitted yourself that there are citizen muslims in Switzerland. You don't get to move the goal posts by now omitting that fact.

The small percentage of Swiss Muslims have no right to build Minarets in Switzerland also.

Out of curiosity, have you been to or lived in Switzerland, France, Holland and the other countries where this is going on?

re: #797 BryanS

So zoning ordinances need to be passed on a national plebiscite?

Same question to you, how familiar are you with Switzerland?

Zoning ordinances are a national Issue in countries such as Switzerland with architecture that evolves over centuries and are closely associated with national identity and pride.

801 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:47:36pm

re: #800 Bagua

Zoning ordinances are a national Issue in countries such as Switzerland with architecture that evolves over centuries and are closely associated with national identity and pride.

There you go again.

National identity and pride, indeed.

Racism!

802 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:47:45pm

re: #800 Bagua

Again, I don't care about what point you're trying and failing to make. Mine was simple. There are swiss muslims. They, under swiss law have the same rights as any other swiss citizens. To say this is simply a bunch of "guest workers" demanding special treatment is bullshit.

803 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:49:05pm

re: #800 Bagua

The small percentage of Swiss Muslims have no right to build Minarets in Switzerland also.

Hypothetically speaking. Would that apply to the United States? I mean, if it were similar circumstances. Would it be OK for you to ban minarets in the United States?

804 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:50:20pm

re: #793 Gus 802

Again?

You mean like this one?

That's 25% of the minarets in Switzer-land.

From small acorns grow great oaks.

re: #802 McSpiff

Again, I don't care about what point you're trying and failing to make. Mine was simple. There are swiss muslims. They, under swiss law have the same rights as any other swiss citizens. To say this is simply a bunch of "guest workers" demanding special treatment is bullshit.


Again, by what right to you speak for the Swiss? How is building a non-conforming building a right?

Building Minarets is not a "right", it is a privilege. The Swiss alternatively have the right to make their own laws. They exclude Minarets. End of story.

805 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:50:48pm

re: #801 Cato the Elder

There you go again.

National identity and pride, indeed.

Racism!

Why, next you'll be saying that Jews have a right to their own state!

806 BryanS  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:52:12pm

re: #800 Bagua

Same question to you, how familiar are you with Switzerland?

Zoning ordinances are a national Issue in countries such as Switzerland with architecture that evolves over centuries and are closely associated with national identity and pride.

Really? And the example Gus linked to really destroys the skyline, huh? I have never been to Switzerland, but I challenge you to find any other example form any comparable sized country where zoning ordinances applied nation wide have been voted on like this was. That is an extraordinary statement that needs justification.

807 idioma  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:53:22pm

re: #16 Crimsonfisted

God bless the police who were killed and their families.

I have no words. We have jails for a reason. Some people are just evil.

Why would god bless the police now? They're dead. If god cared about anything, they'd be home right now.

808 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:53:43pm

re: #804 Bagua

Now you're ignoring the words in my post.

re: #791 Bagua

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

This post I quote? This is full of shit. Specifically the line "they are not Swiss muslims, they are guest workers". If you're born in Switzerland, you're swiss. If you hold swiss citizenship, you're swiss. This post goes well beyond minarets and into something else.

809 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:54:44pm

re: #803 Gus 802

Hypothetically speaking. Would that apply to the United States? I mean, if it were similar circumstances. Would it be OK for you to ban minarets in the United States?

Hypothetically speaking, how about North Korea? Or Grand Cayman? Or Atlantis?

The issue is what the Swiss are doing in Switzerland, don't change it to something it isn't. They are not a member of the United States, or the EU, or any other nation or construct other than Switzerland. They are a small, Alpine country surrounded by larger nations. They make their own laws and have their own identity.

This business about applying the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to other nations is arrogance.

810 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:55:41pm

re: #807 idioma

Why would god bless the police now? They're dead. If god cared about anything, they'd be home right now.

That wasn't very nice. But you knew that, didn't you.

811 idioma  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:56:38pm

re: #18 kobra_55

Imagine the outrage if Huckabee was a Muslim or even a Buddhist or something and he had pardoned this guy because he converted to whatever religion Huckabee was. There is a double standard in religious fundamentalism.

It's not a double standard, it's just ✞he $✞andard™

812 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:57:22pm

re: #806 BryanS

Really? And the example Gus linked to really destroys the skyline, huh? I have never been to Switzerland, but I challenge you to find any other example form any comparable sized country where zoning ordinances applied nation wide have been voted on like this was. That is an extraordinary statement that needs justification.

Yeah because obviously .002% of the population should automatically have free reign to do anything they want if their religion dictates it...

My heart bleeds for them, not.

813 idioma  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:57:39pm

re: #810 Boogberg

That wasn't very nice. But you knew that, didn't you.

What isn't nice is to point to an invisible man in the sky every time something tragic happens.

814 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:17pm

re: #812 ausador

How dare that 0.002% wish to use their private property in a manner that would be totally legal, if only they had chosen the correct religion.

815 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:32pm

re: #808 McSpiff

Now you're ignoring the words in my post.

re: #791 Bagua

This post I quote? This is full of shit. Specifically the line "they are not Swiss muslims, they are guest workers". If you're born in Switzerland, you're swiss. If you hold swiss citizenship, you're swiss. This post goes well beyond minarets and into something else.

Whatever, calm down and don't get vulgar.

Show me in Swiss law where there is a "right" to build minarets. It isn't there. On the contrary, it is now prohibited. No group has a "right" to build non-conforming buildings. The Europeans are especially sensitive about this.

816 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:42pm

re: #807 idioma

Ok, that was uncalled for and just wrong. -1

817 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:00:26am

re: #809 Bagua

Hypothetically speaking, how about North Korea? Or Grand Cayman? Or Atlantis?

The issue is what the Swiss are doing in Switzerland, don't change it to something it isn't. They are not a member of the United States, or the EU, or any other nation or construct other than Switzerland. They are a small, Alpine country surrounded by larger nations. They make their own laws and have their own identity.

This business about applying the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to other nations is arrogance.

It is a fair question that you choose not to answer because it probes whether you believe the Swiss have a right--as all nations do--to pass their own laws, or whether you in addition to that feel that any nation has a right to pass discriminatory laws against minorities that are perceived as threats.

You seem to believe the later since you've argued that countries in the middle east do it, so it's ok for non-Muslim countries to do it back.

818 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:00:50am

re: #809 Bagua

This business about applying the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to other nations is arrogance.

It was a hypothetical question none the less. I realize that they do not work under an American model but I already have an answer.

My answer is no. I would not like to see the banning of minarets in the United States. Furthermore, I find the idea repugnant regardless of the application of moral relativism.

I find the idea of even being empathetic to such a notion or rule of law, even if it is agreed upon by a democratic vote, to be morally repulsive.

819 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:00:52am

re: #815 Bagua

Whatever, calm down and don't get vulgar.

Show me in Swiss law where there is a "right" to build minarets. It isn't there. On the contrary, it is now prohibited. No group has a "right" to build non-conforming buildings. The Europeans are especially sensitive about this.

I've clearly said my issue with that post is not minarets. Its the attempt to paint all muslims group in Switzerland as foreign aliens, and not swiss citizens. This is a lie by your own admission. I hate lies. Stop lying.

820 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:01:32am

re: #806 BryanS

Really? And the example Gus linked to really destroys the skyline, huh? I have never been to Switzerland, but I challenge you to find any other example form any comparable sized country where zoning ordinances applied nation wide have been voted on like this was. That is an extraordinary statement that needs justification.

I have traveled the length and breadth of Switzerland, on several occasions. It is a small country with very distinct architecture and cultures, minarets would certainly alter the skyline.

They are not welcome, thus the vote.

821 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:02:28am
In philosophy moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect universal moral truths (neither objective nor subjective). Instead, moral relativism makes claims relative to social, cultural, or historical circumstances. Moral relativists hold that no universal standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth.
822 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:03:52am

re: #813 idioma

What isn't nice is to point to an invisible man in the sky every time something tragic happens.

Well if it's not hurting you, then what's the problem? Maybe you just like to make grief stricken people feel worse.

823 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:04:10am

re: #809 Bagua

This business about applying the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to other nations is arrogance.

We're only allowed to do it to non-uniformed enemy combatants. Everyone else is S.O.L. and on their own. ///

824 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:05:07am

re: #821 Gus 802

True but their position always collaspes after about three minutes of questioning. Some truths really are self-evident...

825 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:05:27am

re: #819 McSpiff

I've clearly said my issue with that post is not minarets. Its the attempt to paint all muslims group in Switzerland as foreign aliens, and not swiss citizens. This is a lie by your own admission. I hate lies. Stop lying.

If you are going to start swearing and calling people liars that you can speak with yourself.

You are angry and irrational. Please stop.

826 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:05:31am

I hate the circumstances, but I can't say I'm anything but glad to see Chucklebee in political hot water this morning. Best if his future political aspirations simply crash and burn into a smoking hole in the ground now, rather than later, after he's sucked votes away from a candidate who may actually be qualified.

How someone who wants to replace the Constitution of the United States with the Ten Commandments is so popular among self-described Conservatives is beyond me. His intention to impose far-reaching, personally intrusive legislation on the entire populace, forcing them into conformity with fundamentalist religious precepts indistinguishable from Islamism in their oppression, is beyond me.

I really hope this is the end of his career. Although it will certainly sadden the Dems.

827 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:06:25am

re: #824 ausador

True but their position always collaspes after about three minutes of questioning. Some truths really are self-evident...

Whose position? Are you alluding to a non-right of equal protection?

828 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:08:55am

re: #818 Gus 802

morally repulsive.

re: #817 BryanS

discriminatory laws against minorities .

Good grief. Where are the violins, there should be violins.

There is no "discrimination" or immorality here, the law is restricting buildings, not people.

There is no "right" to construct towers.

829 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:08:56am

re: #826 SixDegrees

I hate the circumstances, but I can't say I'm anything but glad to see Chucklebee in political hot water this morning. Best if his future political aspirations simply crash and burn into a smoking hole in the ground now, rather than later, after he's sucked votes away from a candidate who may actually be qualified.

How someone who wants to replace the Constitution of the United States with the Ten Commandments is so popular among self-described Conservatives is beyond me. His intention to impose far-reaching, personally intrusive legislation on the entire populace, forcing them into conformity with fundamentalist religious precepts indistinguishable from Islamism in their oppression, is beyond me.

I really hope this is the end of his career. Although it will certainly sadden the Dems.

He is toast--and thank Gaia, Zeus, or whatever that he is. The more right wing blogs have all pretty much panned him for this.

830 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:09:04am

re: #825 Bagua

If you are going to start swearing and calling people liars that you can speak with yourself.

You are angry and irrational. Please stop.

re: #731 Bagua

Because most of the 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss. They are guest workers, mostly from former Yugoslavia and Turkey. Only about 4% have Swiss citizenship from birth.

For the record, you admit to 16,000 people being born with Swiss citizenship.
re: #791 Bagua

First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers. Secondly, tall minarets disrupt the skyline, they are out of place in European architecture. They stand out like the proverbial "Sore Thumb."

If they were not offensive then the Swiss would not be bothered by them. QED

Your two posts blatantly disagree with each other. One of them is incorrect. Should I attribute this to malice or simply stupidity?

831 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:09:12am

re: #820 Bagua

You know damn good and well this isn't about protecting their architecture. This excuse is a front for the xenophobes, and it worked.

832 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:09:46am

re: #44 armylaw

The Bible says something to that effect - "He who ​justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord" (Prov. 17:15). The Huckster has a lot to answer for, both before God and any potential voters. This has Willie Horton written all over it.

The bible says a lot of things. No one answers to god, because we made him up to excuse our own shitty behavior.re: #816 ausador

Ok, that was uncalled for and just wrong. -1

You may think so, but let me be perfectly clear.

If Huckabee had thought about who he let out of prison, instead of praying about it, nine kids would still have their parents in their lives.

833 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:09:58am

re: #326 Gus 802

Huckabee Issues Statement:

STV

Did anybody count the number of times Huckabee used the word "I" in this statement?

Even though the incident is all about him, the total comes to zero.

"Responsibility? For my actions? WTF?"

834 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:10:05am

re: #828 Bagua

Good grief. Where are the violins, there should be violins.

There is no "discrimination" or immorality here, the law is restricting buildings, not people.

There is no "right" to construct towers.

So if a majority of Americans voted to outlaw church steeples, you'd be ok with that?

835 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:10:30am

re: #831 Sharmuta

You know damn good and well this isn't about protecting their architecture. This excuse is a front for the xenophobes, and it worked.

The 800lb gorilla some seem intent on ignoring.

836 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:10:51am

re: #829 BryanS

He is toast--and thank Gaia, Zeus, or whatever that he is. The more right wing blogs have all pretty much panned him for this.

We'll see if it sticks, but I'm hopeful.

837 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:10:53am

re: #830 McSpiff

Should I attribute this to malice or simply stupidity?

[gaze]

I'll not chat with you if you are going to start being insulting.

838 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:11:08am

re: #822 Boogberg

Well if it's not hurting you, then what's the problem? Maybe you just like to make grief stricken people feel worse.

Some people are so butthurt by the idea that others actually have faith in a higher power that they become anti-theists. To them it is a sign of stupidity and an affront just to admit that you believe in God.

I think for the most part maybe they are just people who despised church and their parents made them go anyway or something.

/

839 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:11:42am

re: #828 Bagua

Good grief. Where are the violins, there should be violins.

There is no "discrimination" or immorality here, the law is restricting buildings, not people.

There is no "right" to construct towers.

This is not an architectural issue. Come on that's a joke. It's an attempt to create an underclass and further erode the rights of a minority. Stop with the architectural ploy please. It's because they hate Muslims and foreigners in general. That's the whole impetus behind the SVP anyway.

OK, you don't really have to stop but you know what I mean.

840 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:12:40am

re: #833 SixDegrees

Did anybody count the number of times Huckabee used the word "I" in this statement?

Even though the incident is all about him, the total comes to zero.

"Responsibility? For my actions? WTF?"

Not me but I sure saw him pass the buck.

No es mi culpa!

/

841 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:13:00am

re: #837 Bagua

[gaze]

I'll not chat with you if you are going to start being insulting.

Or you're simply hurt that you got caught. I'll be happy to be apologize if you can give a reasonable explanation for why you can't seem to keep your story straight in this thread.

842 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:13:34am

re: #831 Sharmuta

You know damn good and well this isn't about protecting their architecture. This excuse is a front for the xenophobes, and it worked.

Have you been to Switzerland Sharmuta? It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia. American is a multi-cultural immigrant country, it is wrong to insist that every one else follow suit.

There was no referendum to ban Mosques by the way, nor any other sort of Muslim building. The ban is on Minarets, pure and simple.

843 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:14:54am

re: #842 Bagua

Have you been to Switzerland Sharmuta? It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia. American is a multi-cultural immigrant country, it is wrong to insist that every one else follow suit.

There was no referendum to ban Mosques by the way, nor any other sort of Muslim building. The ban is on Minarets, pure and simple.

Care to explain what exactly a minaret is, if not a muslim building?

844 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:15:34am

re: #841 McSpiff

[gaze]

Withdraw the insults or do not expect an answer from me. I've not read your posts beyond the hostility, at which point I stopped. I'll not go there anymore, I leaned that lesson.

845 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:16:01am

re: #822 Boogberg

Well if it's not hurting you, then what's the problem? Maybe you just like to make grief stricken people feel worse.

Here's the problem: Huckabee acts on faith. This got people killed. It's not the first time faith got people killed either. Why would you exploit a tragedy to display your faith? Why bring god into it at all? Isn't it a little bit late to be "blessing" anything? There's no excuse for Huckabee's foolishness.

846 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:16:16am

re: #842 Bagua

Have you been to Switzerland Sharmuta? It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia. American is a multi-cultural immigrant country, it is wrong to insist that every one else follow suit.

There was no referendum to ban Mosques by the way, nor any other sort of Muslim building. The ban is on Minarets, pure and simple.

Huh? The Swiss--of all the countries in Europe--like to sell the image of being multicultural. You know, multiple major languages, cultures, etc. Just not for Muslims, I guess.

847 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:16:20am

re: #842 Bagua

Have you been to Switzerland Sharmuta? It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia. American is a multi-cultural immigrant country, it is wrong to insist that every one else follow suit.

There was no referendum to ban Mosques by the way, nor any other sort of Muslim building. The ban is on Minarets, pure and simple.


'SVP deputy compares foreigners to insects', states indignantly swiss paper governess NZZ

[Link: groups.google.com...]

848 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:16:59am

re: #842 Bagua

Have you been to Switzerland Sharmuta? It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia. American is a multi-cultural immigrant country, it is wrong to insist that every one else follow suit.

There was no referendum to ban Mosques by the way, nor any other sort of Muslim building. The ban is on Minarets, pure and simple.

Sorry, but a quick glance at the posters used to support this referendum make it crystal clear that it is all about Muslims and all about mosques, and has nothing to do with architectural style.

Guarantee: if a mosque attempts to erect something else - say, something they call a "steeple" - it will be heartily condemned, despite it's adoption of local architectural styles.

849 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:17:28am

Jewish leader: party winner of Swiss elections is bordering on anti-Semitism

GENEVA (EJP)---The populist and xenophobic right-wing Swiss People’s Party (SVP), which was the biggest winner of general elections on Sunday, is bordering on what can be considered as anti-Semitism, Alfred Donath, president of the Swiss Federation of Jewish communities (FSCI), told European Jewish Press on Monday.

The anti-Europe party, led by Justice Minister Christoph Blocher, consolidated its position as the country’s leading force after a bitter campaign marred by charges of racism.

Commenting on the results of the vote, Donath told EJP: "They are not anti-Semitic because they care to avoid any outburst but their victory is certainly a kind of encouragement for anti-Semites to express themselves."

...

850 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:17:29am

re: #842 Bagua

It is very much about architecture and not at all about xenophobia.

Nonsense!

Europe’s far-right youth: ‘Now it’s ok to be a Nazi'

The fascists are on the rise again in europe.

851 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:17:37am

re: #838 ausador

Some people are so butthurt by the idea that others actually have faith in a higher power that they become anti-theists. To them it is a sign of stupidity and an affront just to admit that you believe in God.

I think for the most part maybe they are just people who despised church and their parents made them go anyway or something.

/

Well I'm not religious but if it gives folks a tiny bit of comfort during a time of grief and sorrow, then who the fuck am I?

852 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:18:38am
Skinheads of all shades were responsible for increasing violence in the streets. In addition to the Swiss Hammerskins (SHS), the leading Swiss skinhead group, the Rechts-Front-Ybrig (RFY) has been active since April 1997. Members are between 17 and 20 years old, and their slogan is " RFY -- Save the nation." The Patriotische Ostflügel (POF), a group of skinheads in easternmost Switzerland, display stickers with xenophobic slogans. Another newly formed skinhead group, Nationale Initiative Schweiz (NIS), introduced their publication Morgenstern at the beginning of the year on the occasion of the JSVP (Young SVP) convention, revealing the close links between an extreme right-wing group and a legal political party.

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

853 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:18:50am

Want more?

854 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:20:00am

Stormfront loves the SVP

These are the same assholes behind the minaret ban.

More?

855 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:20:09am

re: #844 Bagua

[gaze]

Withdraw the insults or do not expect an answer from me. I've not read your posts beyond the hostility, at which point I stopped. I'll not go there anymore, I leaned that lesson.

Alright, I'll my snide comments at the door. In post #731 you state that there are 16,000 swiss born muslims, corresponding to 4% of the total muslim population of 400,000. In post #791 you state: "First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers."

I'd simply like to know which of these two statements is correct.

856 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:20:37am

re: #855 McSpiff

Alright, I'll my snide comments at the door. In post #731 you state that there are 16,000 swiss born muslims, corresponding to 4% of the total muslim population of 400,000. In post #791 you state: "First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers."

I'd simply like to know which of these two statements is correct.

PIMF: leave my snide comments at the door.

857 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:20:54am

re: #827 Gus 802

Whose position? Are you alluding to a non-right of equal protection?

You don't need to be a philosopher or a religious adherant to realize that moral relativism doesn't really hold water in most instances. That doesn't mean that I accept that it's intellectual dishonesty can be used as an argument here. It depends on what one sees the basis the argument as, moral relativism this ain't.

858 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:20:55am

re: #854 Gus 802

Stormfront loves the SVP

These are the same assholes behind the minaret ban.

More?

Better link here.

Swiss People's Party and Stormfront.

Lovely.

859 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:21:20am

re: #851 Boogberg

Well I'm not religious but if it gives folks a tiny bit of comfort during a time of grief and sorrow, then who the fuck am I?

God is a mixed bag. If the victims' families are religious don't you think that the grief of those families is coupled with the question: "why would god let this happen?"

Let's call the whole thing off and focus on what happened specifically, who is to blame, and what action will prevent this sort of thing.

860 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:21:43am
861 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:22:03am

re: #839 Gus 802

This is not an architectural issue. Come on that's a joke. It's an attempt to create an underclass and further erode the rights of a minority. Stop with the architectural ploy please. It's because they hate Muslims and foreigners in general. That's the whole impetus behind the SVP anyway.

OK, you don't really have to stop but you know what I mean.

GUS, if they "hate Muslims" why would they allow hundreds of thousands to live and work there? 90% of them could be expelled as any foreigner.

re: #850 Sharmuta

Nonsense!

Europe’s far-right youth: ‘Now it’s ok to be a Nazi'

The fascists are on the rise again in europe.

Sharmuta, the article you linked to doesn't mention Switzerland. And in any case, this was not a vote dominated by "far right youth", it was a majority decision by the citizens.

862 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:23:40am
863 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:24:15am
864 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:25:03am
In Europe, populist anti-immigrant parties, alarmed at a loss of national identities, are striding toward respectability and power. The Vlaams Belang, seeking independence for Flanders, is the biggest party in the Belgian parliament. The Peoples Party and Freedom Party are now Austria's second and third most popular. The Swiss People's Party of Christoph Blocher is the largest in Bern. In France, the National Front humiliated the government this week, winning over half the vote in a suburb of Marseilles.

Pat Buchanan

865 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:25:49am

re: #845 idioma

Here's the problem: Huckabee acts on faith. This got people killed. It's not the first time faith got people killed either. Why would you exploit a tragedy to display your faith? Why bring god into it at all? Isn't it a little bit late to be "blessing" anything? There's no excuse for Huckabee's foolishness.

Well what would you have? Charge Huckabee with accessory to murder?

866 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:26:15am

"swiss people's party" site:vnnforum.com

They're even loved by the white supremacists at Vanguard.

867 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:28:43am

re: #861 Bagua

I linked an article earlier in this thread that linked the Swiss People's Party to other fascist parties. It's not as if the Swiss are immune from the xenophobia all around them.

Please- this attempt of yours to dismiss the role of the fascists in Switzerland is just sad.

868 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:28:55am

re: #865 Boogberg

Well what would you have? Charge Huckabee with accessory to murder?

Can we just charge him with "not ready to be president"? That's good enough for me.

869 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:29:14am

re: #866 Gus 802

What, you expected them not to appluad this? This proves what exactly?

Or are you trying to say it is a massive conspiracy backed by America's racists and theocrats?

870 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:30:47am

re: #869 ausador

What, you expected them not to appluad this? This proves what exactly?

Or are you trying to say it is a massive conspiracy backed by America's racists and theocrats?

Where did you see a link to theocrats?

They were all links to groups applauding the SVP.

Doesn't that mean anything?

871 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:31:26am

re: #868 BryanS

Can we just charge him with "not ready to be president"? That's good enough for me.

He was eliminated pretty early on last time, wasn't he?

872 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:32:20am
873 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:32:24am

Oh thats right, same as the party of "NO" thinking, if the other guys are for it we have to be against it!

874 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:32:25am

Sleep for me lizards, night all.

875 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:33:20am

re: #871 Boogberg

He was eliminated pretty early on last time, wasn't he?

Yes, and it seems he's out for the next running. Good riddance.

876 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:33:32am

re: #873 ausador

Oh thats right, same as the party of "NO" thinking, if the other guys are for it we have to be against it!

Fine. You are perfectly free to side with European neo-Nazi parties.

877 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:35:09am
878 BryanS  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:35:12am

re: #873 ausador

Oh thats right, same as the party of "NO" thinking, if the other guys are for it we have to be against it!

In politics, "birds of a feather" means something.

879 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:35:29am

OK, that's it. I realize that there's not getting through to the 5th Column.

880 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:36:22am

re: #855 McSpiff

Alright, I'll my snide comments at the door. In post #731 you state that there are 16,000 swiss born muslims, corresponding to 4% of the total muslim population of 400,000. In post #791 you state: "First of all, they are not "Swiss Muslims" they are guest workers."

I'd simply like to know which of these two statements is correct.

Add "by overwhelming majority" to number #791. There is a small percentage of Swiss born Muslims who have citizenship.

re: #867 Sharmuta

I linked an article earlier in this thread that linked the Swiss People's Party to other fascist parties. It's not as if the Swiss are immune from the xenophobia all around them.

Please- this attempt of yours to dismiss the role of the fascists in Switzerland is just sad.

Switzerland is not "fascist", and as to the canard of "xenophobia" that is unfair. The large presence of foreign nationals in Switzerland and the generally smooth assimilation of foreigners shows how open and welcoming the Swiss are.

881 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:37:04am

re: #878 BryanS

In politics, "birds of a feather" means something.

Big time. I guess after all of these months and years now of reading LGF articles haven't sunk in.

882 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:37:39am

re: #865 Boogberg

Well what would you have? Charge Huckabee with accessory to murder?

Uh, no. But lest we forget: The delusions of the faithful get people killed. Huckabee put his faith before reason and facts. I don't think he should be in charge of anything more important than polishing my shoes.

883 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:37:41am
884 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:40:29am
885 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:43:45am

re: #882 idioma

Uh, no. But lest we forget: The delusions of the faithful get people killed. Huckabee put his faith before reason and facts. I don't think he should be in charge of anything more important than polishing my shoes.

Well he must be doing something right. He has a TV show on FOX and you don't. Perhaps it is you who should be shining his shoes.

886 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:44:06am

re: #883 Sharmuta

No xenophobia here! ///

No Nazis here

Are all Muslims Nazis because of a photo of Amin Al Husseini with a Nazi?

The minarets are regarded by the Swiss as political symbols and therefore go against the country's constitution.

The Swiss are not fascists for banning their expansion.

887 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:47:21am

So if the Swiss enacted a law saying that apple pie was the national dessert and Pat Robinson, Storm Front, et al came out afterwards in favor of it I have to declare my hatred of apple pie?

Really?

I expect them to applaud this for their own reasons, that doesn't mean that they reflect my reasoning on the subject.

I believe the Swiss to be competent to rule their own country and think we should keep the backseat driving to a minimum. It isn't as if we have a lack of equally decisive issues of our own to deal with that have lingered unresolved for decades.

888 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:49:47am

re: #886 Bagua

No Nazis here

Are all Muslims Nazis because of a photo of Amin Al Husseini with a Nazi?

The minarets are regarded by the Swiss as political symbols and therefore go against the country's constitution.

The Swiss are not fascists for banning their expansion.

That's pointless. None here either no?

Image: Pope-Pius-XII-460_980938c.jpg

Image: hitler3.gif

Image: Hitler%20and%20church%202.jpg

*Not an endorsement of host sites.

889 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:54:34am

re: #887 ausador

Guilt by association seems fashionable.

Switzerland is not the United States of America, it is Switzerland and they make their own rules.

Muslims are as welcome as anyone else in Switzerland, they are free to practice their religion, free to build Mosques, free to work and enjoy all the rights the Swiss do. They are no longer free to build Minarets which the Swiss see as politically motivated structures they find offensive, not religious "rights" that need protecting.

re: #888 Gus 802

Gus, thank you, that is my point. Guilt by association is weak.

890 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:55:55am

re: #886 Bagua

The Swiss are not fascists for banning their expansion.

And I didn't say they were.

891 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:58:01am

re: #890 Sharmuta

And I didn't say they were.

Then we agree. :)

892 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:58:33am

re: #889 Bagua

Guilt by association seems fashionable.

Switzerland is not the United States of America, it is Switzerland and they make their own rules.

Muslims are as welcome as anyone else in Switzerland, they are free to practice their religion, free to build Mosques, free to work and enjoy all the rights the Swiss do. They are no longer free to build Minarets which the Swiss see as politically motivated structures they find offensive, not religious "rights" that need protecting.

re: #888 Gus 802

Gus, thank you, that is my point. Guilt by association is weak.

That's ironic. You say guilt by association is weak yet you seem perfectly happy to associate all Muslims with Wahhabism and Jihadism. That's guilt by association as well. If you apply that same guilt by association then you're also finding all minarets to be guilty.

893 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:00:21am

re: #892 Gus 802

That's ironic. You say guilt by association is weak yet you seem perfectly happy to associate all Muslims with Wahhabism and Jihadism. That's guilt by association as well. If you apply that same guilt by association then you're also finding all minarets to be guilty.

That is ridiculous Gus, I never said any of that, you did.

894 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:02:35am

re: #893 Bagua

That is ridiculous Gus, I never said any of that, you did.

OK. I said it. Maybe I'm misreading what you've said.

I should go then since I've said enough.

895 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:03:42am

re: #894 Gus 802

OK. I said it. Maybe I'm misreading what you've said.

I should go then since I've said enough.

Thank you. Good night my friend.

896 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:04:02am

Hasta la vista.

897 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:16:25am

re: #885 Boogberg

Well he must be doing something right. He has a TV show on FOX and you don't. Perhaps it is you who should be shining his shoes.

Sorta like how Glenn Beck is doing something right?

898 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:25:55am

re: #897 WindUpBird

Sorta like how Glenn Beck is doing something right?

Well he is, he is appealing to the idiotarian disgruntled masses who feel the need to blame someone else for their problems in life. You can't dispute that he is very good at it and he is making $23 million a year just on his FOX salary, who knows how much more he makes on his radio show, book sales, and speaking fees?

He reminds me a lot of L. Ron, another man who knew how to turn a gimmick into a movement.

899 ghazidor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:31:13am

From drug and alcohol addicted zany "Morning Zoo" disc jockey to political prophet with millions of believers in his "100 year plan" to "re-found" the United States in only two decades. America surely is the land of opportunity.

/

900 Boogberg  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:33:03am

re: #898 ausador

Well he is, he is appealing to the idiotarian disgruntled masses who feel the need to blame someone else for their problems in life. You can't dispute that he is very good at it and he is making $23 million a year just on his FOX salary, who knows how much more he makes on his radio show, book sales, and speaking fees?

He reminds me a lot of L. Ron, another man who knew how to turn a gimmick into a movement.

Yeah. Meanwhile, these guys have TV shows and we don't. I'll be happy to appeal to so-called idiots for $20 million.

Whose with me? :D

901 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:14:11am
He wrote that Bill Clinton had personally intervened to keep Dumond in prison, even though Clinton had recused himself in 1990 from any involvement in the case because of his distant relationship with Stevens.

“The problem with the governor is that he listens to Jay Cole and reads Steve Dunleavy and believes them … without doing other substantative work,” the state official said.

I wonder if Jay Cole and Steve Dunleavy are/were big players in the CDS crowd. I remember the CDS "Bill and Hillary are murderers1!1!eleventy!" and other idiotic rantings...if so, the CDSers have blood on their hands, since Dumond went on to rape and murder two women in MO after his politically motivated release from AR prison.

In 1990, Clemmons, then 18, was sentenced in Arkansas to 60 years in prison for burglary and theft of property, according to a news account in Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Newspaper stories describe a series of disturbing incidents involving Clemmons while he was being tried in Arkansas on various charges.

Bill Clinton was governor in 1990, wasn't he?

I wonder how many of Huckabee's other questionable pardons went to folks who were sentenced during the Clinton administrations?

902 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:16:58am
Bill Clinton's biggest crime
Human Events, Oct 8, 1999 by Dunleavy, Steve
12Next
It [wasn't] hard to find Bill Clinton in New York [Tuesday, September 21]-just follow the traffic jams that his visits always produce.

But don't look for his conscience. For the past 14 years, you wouldn't have been able to find it with AWAC radar and search parties.

I am not talking about the scandals of lying to judges and juries, or lowdinks in high places, or Whitewater or Travelgate or Filegate.

It has to do with a man called Wayne Dumond over whose case I have agonized for long more than a decade. Dumond, now 52, was given conditional parole [recently] in Arkansas after having being sentenced to 50 years in jail for the rape of Clinton's cousin.

That rape never happened. Is that just me saying so? No way. Some others who say so are:

[Link: findarticles.com...]

903 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:33:11am
Elizabeth Gracen: I was a victim of Clinton's reign of terror

investigating Clinton's goons

by Steve Dunleavy

classic CDS. ah, "the good old days" ... not

[Link: home.hiwaay.net...]

904 Right Brain  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 4:19:37am

As of this morning no one in law enforcement is calling Maurice Clemmons a suspect, only this blog is. Law enforcement is calling him a person of interest. At this point Huckabee granted clemency nine years ago to someone who is not even a suspect, let alone tried, convicted, etc.

905 Right Brain  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 4:22:06am

self correction:

Seattle Times is now calling Maurice Clemmons a suspect, with eyewitness and physical evidence. So the accusations against Huckabee stand.

906 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:06:37am

Huckabee's PAC now has a statement in which he passes the buck and takes no personal responsibility for a bad decision. He doesn't even sign the statement, it's from "Press Team":

Statement Regarding Washington State Slayings
by Press Team

The senseless and savage execution of police officers in Washington State has saddened the nation, and early reports indicate that a person of interest is a repeat offender who once lived in Arkansas and was wanted on outstanding warrants here and in Washington State. The murder of any individual is a profound tragedy, but the murder of a police officer is the worst of all murders in that it is an assault on every citizen and the laws we live within.

Should he be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington State. He was recommended for and received a commutation of his original sentence from 1990, this commutation made him parole eligible and he was then paroled by the parole board once they determined he met the conditions at that time. He was arrested later for parole violation and taken back to prison to serve his full term, but prosecutors dropped the charges that would have held him. It appears that he has continued to have a string of criminal and psychotic behavior but was not kept incarcerated by either state. This is a horrible and tragic event and if found and convicted the offender should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Our thoughts and prayers are and should be with the families of those honorable, brave, and heroic police officers.

907 truth stick  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:25:43am

re: #42 solomonpanting

Yep. What was Washington State's excuse?

We don't make excuses in Washington State, that poor guy was just mis-understood, and really didn't want to hurt people or cops. That is why we can't keep track of our felons and child molesters up here. No matter what someone does, there is always some lame excuse as to why it wasn't their fault, and we must change so that they don't want to do that anymore.

///

908 truth stick  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:27:50am

Plus they believe they have him cornered in a house, but since it was in the middle of the night, that they surrounded the place and tried talking him out, it will be interesting too see what happens when the sun comes up over there(which should be real soon now)

909 gregb  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:01:29am

Hopefully this is the death of compassionate conservatism, at least for proven criminals.

910 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:23:19am

re: #833 SixDegrees

Did anybody count the number of times Huckabee used the word "I" in this statement?

Even though the incident is all about him, the total comes to zero.

"Responsibility? For my actions? WTF?"

At least we know he's not a malignant narcissist.

/

BTW: I carefully scanned the skyline on the way to work this morning, but no former Yugoslavs had sneakily ruined the historic skyline of Richmond, CA, by building any minarets in the night.

911 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 9:41:51am

re: #885 Boogberg

Well he must be doing something right. He has a TV show on FOX and you don't. Perhaps it is you who should be shining his shoes.

That's the most foolish thing I've heard you say so far. If the metric for success is based on whether or not someone gets a show on Fox you have a lot more to explain to support your position than I.

By your logic I should also shine the shoes of Joseph Stalin

/After all, he must have done something right too./

You fail at logic.

912 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 9:43:36am

re: #898 ausador

Well he is, he is appealing to the idiotarian disgruntled masses who feel the need to blame someone else for their problems in life. You can't dispute that he is very good at it and he is making $23 million a year just on his FOX salary, who knows how much more he makes on his radio show, book sales, and speaking fees?

He reminds me a lot of L. Ron, another man who knew how to turn a gimmick into a movement.

I could argue the same about drug cartels. Gross salary does not a success make.

913 idioma  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 9:45:20am

re: #900 Boogberg

Yeah. Meanwhile, these guys have TV shows and we don't. I'll be happy to appeal to so-called idiots for $20 million.

Whose with me? :D

Are you willing to soak your hands in the blood of victims that stem from your viewers taking you seriously?

What about Imams that "appeal to so-called idiots" by inciting Jihad over cartoons?

914 Sceptic Tank  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:35:14am

Good riddance and take McCain with you. Politically speaking, Republicans are glad to see this poseur out.

915 GreenSoccer  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:36:17am

re: #767 Cato the Elder

Well if you are referring to parents retaining the option of using corporal punishment, just yesterday I posted on the internet that a school's reaction to "Kick a Jew Day" in a Middle School in Naples Florida should have been the ruler, not the punishment chosen which was a day of suspension in school, and not teachers lecturing about how nice it is to act nicely for 20 minutes a day for a month. I agree that in this society giving humans the responsibility of acting responsibly and expecting a human to exercise judgement is a scary venture since we so rarely see it but I think we should give authority back to those in authority and teach or get the people out who exercise it badly. I don't mean to include the person who posted it on her Facebook page because there is a good possibility that she shared the adults' view of satire but I am referring to the young men and young women who went around kicking students.

This is not the first time. It started in Canada and spread via the internet. It started as Kick a Ginger Day where kids went around kicking redheads, and mob mentality took over and children were left black and blue.

Do we need each school to do it and a different group chosen each time?
Do we need to keep seeing the reaction "I am so surprised!"?
Can we look ahead and realize this will spread and that we need to get a message out that middle school children will hear and take as a deterrent, and take preventive action with a warning, instead of waiting for it to happen again?
(I don't own a dog and I don't have children.)

916 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:46:55am

re: #915 GreenSoccer

(I don't own a dog and I don't have children.)

What a blessing for dogs and children everywhere.

917 simoom  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:58:57pm

re: #466 Charles

Here's that Swiss poster again (seems to have disappeared from that first source):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

@Charles

It's the long string of repeating capital A's that blogspot hosted images have. The LGF forum software truncates them down to just three (AAA) breaking the URLs. I usually end up using bit.ly when I want to post a blogspot hosted image here.

If I click your original blogspot link the path has a piece that looks like this:

/AAAzA/

when it should be:

/AAA AAA AAAzA/

(though without the spaces - I added them so it wouldn't get truncated)

918 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:06:56pm

re: #917 simoom

(though without the spaces - I added them so it wouldn't get truncated)

Ah, right. One of these days I'll revisit that regular expression to make it ignore character runs inside HTML tags.

919 GreenSoccer  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:02:30pm

re: #767 Cato the Elder

I can think of a few, but since you seem to like Dobson, stick with him. Maybe it's just me, personally, but when he reflects on his reflection in a mirror, I don't think is reflected back at him reflects a religious person.

But then again you may like charlatans and guys who get off on beating children.

Re Cato the Elder 767
You also called Dobson a charlatan and that you didn't think he was a religious man.

I have the feeling that he would be more forgiving to you than you are to him.

You claim to read his heart and you find it lacking. I think your ability to read hearts is limited.

But I guess if you disapprove of anyone in all time who believed in spanking a child, there aren't many humans who come up to your standards.

I see that Wikipedia describes Cato the Elder as known for "his belief in his inherent superiority".


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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
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