UK Jewish Group Urges Jews Not to Be Fooled by Fascists

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British Jewish advocacy group CST appeals to Jews not to take part in an upcoming demonstration by far right Eurofascists: Don’t be fooled by Islamophobia.

A small Islamophobic group, called Stop Islamisation Of Europe (SIOE), has called for 1,000 Jews to attend its forthcoming demonstration at Harrow mosque; and for each Jew to bring an Israeli flag.

This is strikingly similar to appeals that have also been made in recent months by the English Defence League (EDL). It is also essentially the same as opportunistic attempts by British National Party leader Nick Griffin to ditch both his and his party’s antisemitic heritage, by stressing his supposed new-found support for Israel and Jews.

SIOE’s appeal for Jewish participation sits alongside this grotesque Islamophobic image on its website:

If a Jew cannot understand why the image is racist, or hateful, or bigoted then they should try imagining it as a synagogue: with blood dripping from a Star of David; with blood dripping down the rabbi’s pulpit; and with blood dripping from the mouth of a skull that wears an Israeli army helmet. …

CST has raised awareness of the activities of extreme Islamist groups in the UK for many years. But to demonise an entire community, every Muslim and every mosque, in the way that SIOE does, shows exactly the kind of bigotry from which Jews have suffered so often in our history. For SIOE to appeal to Jews to support them shows a complete ignorance of the Jewish experience of being on the receiving end of exactly this type of politics. …

Hatred, division, cycles of inter-communal violence, intimidation and polarisation feed the extremists on every side. They encourage social division and leave all minorities vulnerable. Anti-Muslim bigotry is a vital recruiting sergeant for both the far right, and its Islamist extremist counterparts. It generates votes for the BNP and, at the furthest ends of this political spectrum, it even provides the fuel for terrorism. British Jews should have no part of it.

The SIOE is trying to use British Jews for two purposes: 1) to give them cover and deflect accusations of fascism, and 2) to enrage any Islamists at Harrow mosque and try to provoke them to violence.

Insane shrieking harpy Pamela Geller is solidly on the side of the fascists, as always, and is freaking out at her hate site: Atlas Urges Jews Worldwide to Support SIOE, Ignore Dhimmi ‘Jewish Councils’ - Atlas Shrugs.

Quote:

Oncve again leftist Jews lying and deceiving to advance the aims of the enemies of Jews andJewish life.

(Hat tip: KT.)

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196 comments

1 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:44:12pm

when the right wingfascists get their race war with the muslims, the Jews will be attacked from both sides as they always are.

2 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:44:30pm

I said it in the last thread and I'll say it again. Anytime any group of non-Jews starts asking Jews to line up and identify themselves it seldom ends well.

3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:45:33pm

Perhaps the people who were smart enough for this can have a conversation with the leaders of the GOP?

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:47:15pm
But to demonise an entire community, every Muslim and every mosque, in the way that SIOE does, shows exactly the kind of bigotry from which Jews have suffered so often in our history. For SIOE to appeal to Jews to support them shows a complete ignorance of the Jewish experience of being on the receiving end of exactly this type of politics. …

What's pamela's excuse for her ignorance?

5 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:47:27pm

re: #2 Cineaste

I said it in the last thread and I'll say it again. Anytime any group of non-Jews starts asking Jews to line up and identify themselves it seldom ends well.

Luckily, most of us have learned that.

6 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:48:24pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That is true. I might be wrong but looks like they are using the Jewish people as "shields."

7 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:48:32pm

/Palin predicted a mass immigration to Israel... how could she have known?

But seriously, this is f'ed up.

8 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:48:41pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

What's pamela's excuse for her ignorance?

she is too blinded by her own prejudice to see what should be obvious.

9 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:48:59pm

I distrust that blatant of propaganda.

10 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:49:21pm
This is strikingly similar to appeals that have also been made in recent months by the English Defence League (EDL). It is also essentially the same as opportunistic attempts by British National Party leader Nick Griffin to ditch both his and his party’s antisemitic heritage, by stressing his supposed new-found support for Israel and Jews.

The point about the EDL is a good one. The EDL has taken to waving the Israeli flag at their protests but I can almost guarantee that there are very few (if any) Jews at those protests. Jews willing to align themselves with Eurofascists are very very rare, especially in Europe.

11 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:52:31pm
12 recusancy  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:53:47pm

OT: O'Reilly had Huck on and said blame shouldn't be placed on him. And then proceeded to go hard after the judges, who he says gave too light of sentences for crimes committed after Huck commuted him.

13 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:55:26pm

What is the UK version of CAIR? anybody know?

14 freetoken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:55:49pm

re: #12 recusancy

CYA-mode, though perhaps expected, is hardly a trust inducing action.

15 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:56:26pm

From pammycakes:

Israel is on the front lines of the global jihad - where does the dhimm CST stand on that? I think I am going to throw up. I cannot believe that not 60 years after the Shoah, this kind of appeasing of Jew haters is

Pamela- don't look now, but you appease Jew haters every time you promote your fascists friends.

16 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:57:02pm

re: #13 brookly red

What is the UK version of CAIR? anybody know?

There are two groups; MPACUK and the MCB.

17 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:58:03pm

I think the shrieking harpy was blitzed when she wrote that post. It has even more misspellings and typos than usual.

18 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:58:38pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

There are two groups; MPACUK and the MCB.

Never heard of them... have a feeling I soon will. Thanks btw.

19 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 5:58:52pm

re: #17 Charles

I think the shrieking harpy was blitzed when she wrote that post. It has even more misspellings and typos than usual.

She didn't even complete one of her sentences.

20 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:00:10pm

re: #11 Gus 802

Holy crap, they're affiliated with Combat 18?

Those guys are killers. Thugs and killers. not just play-actors. They have murdered people and I'm sure they felt great about it.

21 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:00:26pm

TD New England ...

22 freetoken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:01:27pm

re: #17 Charles

It would be fascinating if some psychologist created an automatic web-page analyzer, that deduced the traits of the authors from the webpage.

AtlasShrugs no doubt would map to several DSM-IV sections.

23 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:01:57pm

re: #11 Gus 802

I'd be cautious about that website. He's grinding an axe too.

24 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:02:28pm

re: #22 freetoken

It would be fascinating if some psychologist created an automatic web-page analyzer, that deduced the traits of the authors from the webpage.

AtlasShrugs no doubt would map to several DSM-IV sections.

minority report.com ?

25 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:02:47pm

re: #23 Charles

I'd be cautious about that website. He's grinding an axe too.

OK, thanks. Was wondering. Only been there once or twice. This was the result of searching on Google.

26 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:04:26pm

re: #25 Gus 802

If he's alleging that the organization is related to, linked to, or the same as Combat 18, he's accusing them of any number of truly terrible crimes. It's about as hardcore an accusation as you can get. If he is bandying that about without cause, that's not good.

27 bosforus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:05:07pm

What's black and white and red all over?

28 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:05:47pm

re: #26 Obdicut

If he's alleging that the organization is related to, linked to, or the same as Combat 18, he's accusing them of any number of truly terrible crimes. It's about as hardcore an accusation as you can get. If he is bandying that about without cause, that's not good.

I think the reasoning behind it is that some C18 members showed up at the SIOE protests.

Charles, feel free to delete that link if you wish.

29 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:06:00pm

re: #27 bosforus

What's black and white and red all over?

the new york times?

30 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:06:40pm

re: #27 bosforus

What's black and white and red all over?

President Obama's closest advisors?

31 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:06:41pm

re: #22 freetoken

It would be fascinating if some psychologist created an automatic web-page analyzer, that deduced the traits of the authors from the webpage.

AtlasShrugs no doubt would map to several DSM-IV sections.

Someone already assessed her.

32 bosforus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:07:45pm

re: #29 brookly red

Scroll to the top of the page. Just another stupid joke from yours truly.
But in all seriousness that image is about as subtle and disgusting as a poop sandwich.

33 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:08:10pm

Excellent post. The CST is highly regarded and respected.

The CST counts among it's membership the most prestigious offices of UK's Jewish community:

MIYAD
Jewish Care
United Synagogue
Office of the Chief Rabbi
Board of Deputies of British Jews

34 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:09:00pm
35 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:11:12pm

re: #12 recusancy

OT: O'Reilly had Huck on and said blame shouldn't be placed on him. And then proceeded to go hard after the judges, who he says gave too light of sentences for crimes committed after Huck commuted him.

Unlike the judge that sentenced the guy to 90-some-odd years that Huck then commuted. Wow, brain becomes a pretzel trying to follow that twisted logic...

36 avanti  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:12:55pm

You know, if not for this blog, I would not know of this kind of scary shit going on. It made me wonder if the Nazi's could have done the Holocaust if we'd had the internet to expose the earliest hints of what was to come. It looks like the fascists found another unpopular faith to get kick started.

37 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:13:03pm

re: #35 Cineaste

Unlike the judge that sentenced the guy to 90-some-odd years that Huck then commuted. Wow, brain becomes a pretzel trying to follow that twisted logic...

wow, I agree with you again... dang if the moon ain't full.

38 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:13:23pm

re: #28 Gus 802

Ah. Combat 18 is a weird, weird subgroup with a weird, weird past, but they are generally not welcomed by any mainstream fascists.

And it's sickening that I have to type "mainstream fascists".

If they start being openly accepted at these rallies, then we really have crossed into a bad, bad place.

That guy's website seems like he's really interested in promoting himself, whatever other agenda he has. I don't know of any reliable resource about the fascists in Europe, but I doubt that one is it.

39 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:14:16pm

re: #28 Gus 802

I think the reasoning behind it is that some C18 members showed up at the SIOE protests.

Charles, feel free to delete that link if you wish.

Yeah, I deleted it. It was linking a lot of disparate organizations without evidence.

40 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:14:46pm

re: #39 Charles

Yeah, I deleted it. It was linking a lot of disparate organizations without evidence.

Roger!

41 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:15:11pm

re: #39 Charles

Feel free to delete any of mine freaking out about it, too.

42 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:15:19pm

re: #36 avanti

You know, if not for this blog, I would not know of this kind of scary shit going on. It made me wonder if the Nazi's could have done the Holocaust if we'd had the internet to expose the earliest hints of what was to come. It looks like the fascists found another unpopular faith to get kick started.

Jews weren't hated for their religion. They were hated for their very being.

43 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:16:30pm

re: #42 MandyManners

Jews weren't hated for their religion. They were hated for their very being.

And that's exactly why the shrieking harpy hates Muslims.

44 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:16:33pm

Here's their webpage with rules for the protesters...
Harrow stop mosque building demo 13th December


BANNED FROM PROTEST

1. As with previous SIOE demonstrations, political parties are banned.

2. Any racist chanting, banners and placards will result in immediate ejection of the perpetrators from the demo as will nazi salutes.

3. Totalitarian symbols such as nazi swastikas, communist hammer and sickles, Islamic star and crescent, UNLESS CLEARLY CROSSED OUT OR DEFACED WITH A STOP SIGN.

45 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:16:47pm

re: #42 MandyManners

Jews weren't hated for their religion. They were hated for their very being.

Were Are hated...

46 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:17:13pm

re: #42 MandyManners

They hated us because we had 100% literacy, and that just pisses people off.

Seriously, I think you're absolutely right. The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews, and I doubt any European even has a clue what the Roma religion is like.

47 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:17:15pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Here's their webpage with rules for the protesters...
Harrow stop mosque building demo 13th December

Wow. These people aren't even trying to hide it.

48 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:17:41pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

Mainstream Jewish politics in Britain is firmly far left (SWP) or dead centre, about as far right as any main stream Jewish person will go is Camerons Tories.

The far far left SWP has a lot of pro palestinian/anti-islamophobia Jewish participants. The anti-zionists and the centrists will definiately not be fooled by this - and particularly the anti-zionist Jewish contingent of the far left will counter demonstrate with the other fellow travellers from the SWP :-)

49 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:18:30pm

re: #43 Charles

And that's exactly why the shrieking harpy hates Muslims.

But, Islam is not a race.

50 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:19:19pm

Is there no middle ground over there?

51 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:19:25pm

re: #47 Charles

I'd love to see the list of speakers but we'll have to wait for the protest.

52 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:19:56pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Here's their webpage with rules for the protesters...
Harrow stop mosque building demo 13th December

uhhh wouldn't defacing a star & cresent cause some kinda issues some where, some time?

53 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:21:05pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Ah. Combat 18 is a weird, weird subgroup with a weird, weird past, but they are generally not welcomed by any mainstream fascists.

And it's sickening that I have to type "mainstream fascists".

If they start being openly accepted at these rallies, then we really have crossed into a bad, bad place.

That guy's website seems like he's really interested in promoting himself, whatever other agenda he has. I don't know of any reliable resource about the fascists in Europe, but I doubt that one is it.

There's a BBC Panorama special called Ex-Combat 18 man speaks out and he speaks about his contact with Nick Griffin of the BNP. There were also some former C18 members involved with the BNP. This is about 5 years old so these connections aren't anything new. This includes what we've learned here at LGF early this year.

54 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:21:22pm

re: #50 MandyManners

Is there no middle ground over there?

Very, very little.

You're expected to show your colors. The phenomena is pretty much pan-European.

Politics is an integral part of identity over there.

55 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:21:46pm

re: #49 MandyManners

But, Islam is not a race.

Nor are Jews.

56 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:21:58pm

The UK is not the ideal from which to model a tolerant society. Long history of anti-semitism.

57 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:22:57pm

re: #55 Cineaste

3 for 3... excuse me I gotta go play lotto.

58 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:23:05pm

re: #50 MandyManners

Is there no middle ground over there?

I think it's a problem with the parliamentary system. I America we have two parties and they generally stay pretty moderate. They also absorb smaller parties as they pop up. With the parliamentary system there dozens of small parties of various extremes. The moderating influence for them is when they have to form coalitions in parliament to get things done.

59 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:23:45pm

re: #53 Gus 802

I know there are always going to be loose connections between those groups, but my point is that if Combat 18 is openly recognized, welcomed, and accepted at a rally, then whoever is leading that rally is condoning, implicitly, outright murder. If they just show up and glower from the edges... well, I'd say that the fascists ought to do a better job of policing their rallies and keeping out the extreme element, but they're fascists anyway.

The whole thing makes me ill. Hateful bastards.

60 amused  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:24:07pm

Hey Charles, are you trying to make 'insane shrieking harpy' bring up as many Google hits for Geller as 'white supremacist blogger' does for Robert McCain? Funny.

61 solomonpanting  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:24:18pm
The SIOE is trying to use British Jews for two purposes

Will they see through this mosquerade?

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:25:32pm

Crazy Pam gets one comment...


I see your minaret and I raise you a twelve gauge shotgun.

Posted by: En français %P% Monday, November 30, 2009 at 08:28 PM


Lovely.
/

63 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:25:44pm

re: #55 Cineaste

Nor are Jews.

How much Jewishness did a person have to have in order to be defined as a Jew by the Nazis? How many Jews who had converted to Christianity were still sent to the camps? How many atheist Jews were sent?

64 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:25:56pm

re: #56 karmic_inquisitor

The UK is not the ideal from which to model a tolerant society. Long history of anti-semitism.

Not entirely accurate or fair.

At a time when anti Semitism was de riguer in most European societies the UK was the Garden of Eden.

65 Gus  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:26:37pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I know there are always going to be loose connections between those groups, but my point is that if Combat 18 is openly recognized, welcomed, and accepted at a rally, then whoever is leading that rally is condoning, implicitly, outright murder. If they just show up and glower from the edges... well, I'd say that the fascists ought to do a better job of policing their rallies and keeping out the extreme element, but they're fascists anyway.

The whole thing makes me ill. Hateful bastards.

When you come down to it they're all on the same side.

66 jaunte  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:26:57pm

re: #60 amused

Hey Charles, are you trying to make 'insane shrieking harpy' bring up as many Google hits for Geller as 'white supremacist blogger' does for Robert McCain? Funny.

Surprisingly, only six hits so far.
[Link: www.google.com...]

67 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:00pm

re: #54 researchok

Very, very little.

You're expected to show your colors. The phenomena is pretty much pan-European.

Politics is an integral part of identity over there.

Europe's present sounds like its past.

68 Wytnucls  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:07pm

Here is the explanation for the origin of the caricature for those not aware of it:
'Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdogan pro-Islamist sympathies earned him a conviction in 1998 for inciting religious hatred.
He had publicly read an Islamic poem including the lines: "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..."'
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

69 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:13pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

I think it's a problem with the parliamentary system. I America we have two parties and they generally stay pretty moderate. They also absorb smaller parties as they pop up. With the parliamentary system there dozens of small parties of various extremes. The moderating influence for them is when they have to form coalitions in parliament to get things done.

awww man! I was just going to join the Wigs... but really that is the best defense of the 2 party system I have heard ever.

Shit, I hate when that happens.

70 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:38pm

re: #61 solomonpanting

Will they see through this mosquerade?


Probably. It's not much of a secret that these are neonazi groups. Here in America most of us have never heard of the BNP or Le Penn but Jews living in Europe are almost certainly aware of what's going on.

71 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:42pm

re: #67 MandyManners

Europe's present sounds like its past.

History repeats itself.

72 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:27:48pm

re: #54 researchok

In mainland Europe - posssibly.

But in Britain the two things people don't talk in polite company about are Politics and Religion.

If somethings in the news people will talk about it in the pub - but political affiliation is not as much of a thing in the UK as it used to be since the tribalism started to break down after the mid-80's.

There is a lot of political flux and lots of people willing to swap their votes around in the vast centre ground created by the Blair/Brown triangulation of Britain.

73 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:28:13pm

re: #63 MandyManners

How much Jewishness did a person have to have in order to be defined as a Jew by the Nazis? How many Jews who had converted to Christianity were still sent to the camps? How many atheist Jews were sent?

According to the Nuremberg Laws 1/16th was enough. In some instances, 1/32nd was enough.

74 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:28:22pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

I think it's a problem with the parliamentary system. I America we have two parties and they generally stay pretty moderate. They also absorb smaller parties as they pop up. With the parliamentary system there dozens of small parties of various extremes. The moderating influence for them is when they have to form coalitions in parliament to get things done.

Sounds rather inefficient.

75 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #61 solomonpanting

Will they see through this mosquerade?

In a New York minaret.

76 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:29:07pm

Evening lizards. How was everyone's Thanksgiving? I spent mine in Tennessee.

77 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:29:32pm

re: #69 brookly red

Don't give up completely on the Whigs. As a 3rd party they suck and are generally useless but the Republican party might self destruct in the next few years. Somebody might have to step up to fill the gap.

78 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:29:38pm

re: #75 MandyManners

In a New York minaret.

Are you trying to be arch?

79 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:30:30pm

re: #74 MandyManners

Sounds rather inefficient.

Hitler became Chancellor because of the need to form a governing coalition. It can and has backfired, and I'm glad we don't have it here in the US.

80 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:30:50pm

re: #72 wozzablog

In mainland Europe - posssibly.

But in Britain the two things people don't talk in polite company about are Politics and Religion.

If somethings in the news people will talk about it in the pub - but political affiliation is not as much of a thing in the UK as it used to be since the tribalism started to break down after the mid-80's.

There is a lot of political flux and lots of people willing to swap their votes around in the vast centre ground created by the Blair/Brown triangulation of Britain.

When I was growing up in the UK, polite conversation never included religion or politics.

Today, that is less the case- recall the overt anti semitic slurs made in public.

Mark Steyn, Barbra Amiel, et al, have all written on the subject.

81 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:31:55pm

re: #71 Sharmuta

History repeats itself.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

82 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:32:46pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Don't give up completely on the Whigs. As a 3rd party they suck and are generally useless but the Republican party might self destruct in the next few years. Somebody might have to step up to fill the gap.

uhhh, don't get your hopes up & btw I is a registered Democrat... since 76

83 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:32:56pm

re: #73 researchok

According to the Nuremberg Laws 1/16th was enough. In some instances, 1/32nd was enough.

So, it was not an attack on those who followed the Jewish faith.

84 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:33:14pm

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards. How was everyone's Thanksgiving? I spent mine in Tennessee.

W00t!

85 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:33:41pm

re: #63 MandyManners

How much Jewishness did a person have to have in order to be defined as a Jew by the Nazis? How many Jews who had converted to Christianity were still sent to the camps? How many atheist Jews were sent?

I don't dispute any of that, but Jews are not a race.

86 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:34:03pm

re: #78 Decatur Deb

Are you trying to be arch?

Ogee. You think?

87 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:34:40pm

re: #79 Sharmuta

Hitler became Chancellor because of the need to form a governing coalition. It can and has backfired, and I'm glad we don't have it here in the US.


Well, the grand EU will stop that from happening again, right? Right?

88 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:34:41pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

I think it's a problem with the parliamentary system. I America we have two parties and they generally stay pretty moderate. They also absorb smaller parties as they pop up. With the parliamentary system there dozens of small parties of various extremes. The moderating influence for them is when they have to form coalitions in parliament to get things done.

Do remember, Killgore, that the UK runs its system differently than the continent. UK MPs are elected by districts called ridings. The UK also has fewer parties (only three major ones). The British Parliament doesn't have the nutcase problem the European Parliament does (excepting that asshole George Galloway, of course).

89 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:35:06pm

re: #83 MandyManners

So, it was not an attack on those who followed the Jewish faith.

Nope.

Even proximity was enough to 'taint.'

90 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:36:05pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Do remember, Killgore, that the UK runs its system differently than the continent. UK MPs are elected by districts called ridings. The UK also has fewer parties (only three major ones). The British Parliament doesn't have the nutcase problem the European Parliament does (excepting that asshole George Galloway, of course).

& no 2nd ammendment neither

91 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:36:13pm

Ah, The Kid is back from this week's round of Bible Bowl. We won again! bbiab

92 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:36:32pm

re: #86 MandyManners

Ogee. You think?


Capital!

93 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:37:57pm

re: #49 MandyManners

But, Islam is not a race.

I was about to say the same thing.

94 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:38:24pm

re: #91 MandyManners

Ah, The Kid is back from this week's round of Bible Bowl. We won again! bbiab

Cool! Congrats!

95 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:39:39pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

Cool! Congrats!

can he pray for my NE patriots? they trail NO by 10

96 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:40:09pm

re: #55 Cineaste

Nor are Jews.

No, but Jews were persecuted even when they stopped practicing Judaism.

97 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:40:27pm

re: #85 Cineaste

I don't dispute any of that, but Jews are not a race.

re: #89 researchok

Nope.

Even proximity was enough to 'taint.'

Where's a Talmudic scholar when you need one?

brb

98 freetoken  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:40:40pm

Just put in the Links (under Science) a link to The Antarctic Climate Change and the Environment (ACCE) Report, the web page anyway that has the link to the PDF of a rather massive report led by the British Antarctic Survey (BAS).

The Executive Summary alone is about 15 pages, so this is some meaty reading. Probably not for everybody, but if you want to know about the Antarctic and especially climate change wrt that continent, this looks like the document to have.

This is the updated version... just released. The BAS has ongoing research projects and no doubt this document will need to be updated in future years, but for now this is very relevant and timely.

Recommended for science nerds.

99 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:40:44pm

re: #95 _RememberTonyC

can he pray for my NE patriots? they trail NO by 10

You are asking for a miracle judging by the way NO has played so far.

100 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:41:04pm

Bagua's Music Break™


War - Bob Marley


Until the philosophy which hold one race superior
And another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned -
Everywhere is war -
Me say war.


That until there no longer
First class and second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man's skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes -
Me say war.


That until the basic human rights
Are equally guaranteed to all,
Without regard to race -
Dis a war.


That until that day
The dream of lasting peace,
World citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
But never attained -
Now everywhere is war - war.

101 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:41:08pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

Capital!

This is my finial pun tonight.

102 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:41:56pm

re: #64 researchok

Not entirely accurate or fair.

At a time when anti Semitism was de riguer in most European societies the UK was the Garden of Eden.

Jews were banned from setting foot in England until Oliver Cromwell allowed them back in the mid 1600's.

103 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:42:03pm

re: #99 NJDhockeyfan

You are asking for a miracle judging by the way NO has played so far.

LOL ... not to mention asking for prayers against a team called the SAINTS

104 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:42:41pm

re: #103 _RememberTonyC

LOL ... not to mention asking for prayers against a team called the SAINTS

Blasphemy!

105 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:43:06pm

re: #68 Wytnucls

Interesting nic you have there.

106 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:43:56pm

re: #102 Alouette

Jews were banned from setting foot in England until Oliver Cromwell allowed them back in the mid 1600's.

True, but the ban wasn't really enforced.

In other European countries, persecution of Jews was far greater.

107 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:44:08pm

re: #101 MandyManners

This is my finial pun tonight.


You could have vaulted over me, if you had buttressed your arguments.

108 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:44:12pm

re: #85 Cineaste

I don't dispute any of that, but Jews are not a race.

Jews are, however, a distinct ethnic group with DNA markers.

109 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:44:19pm

re: #104 NJDhockeyfan

Blasphemy!

Call it my own personal "Patriot Act"

110 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:44:59pm

re: #102 Alouette

And then they got banned again during the Restoration, and then allowed again when they allowed gathered churches.

111 solomonpanting  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:45:30pm

re: #100 Bagua

War - Bob Marley

Wasn't that derived from a speech by Haile Selassie?

112 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:45:44pm

re: #106 researchok

True, but the ban wasn't really enforced.

In other European countries, persecution of Jews was far greater.

Yes it was. No Jews were permitted in England until Cromwell.

BTW Cromwell never really repealed the ban on Jews, he just failed to enforce it. IIRC the ban was not repealed until the mid 1800's.

113 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:46:43pm

re: #96 Alouette

No, but Jews were persecuted even when they stopped practicing Judaism.

I have a hunch islamic apostates would still be seen as outsiders, immigrants, foreigners, etc.

114 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:49:35pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

I have a hunch islamic apostates would still be seen as outsiders, immigrants, foreigners, etc.

Will they be called "self-hating" Muslims?

115 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:49:38pm

re: #112 Alouette

Yes it was. No Jews were permitted in England until Cromwell.

BTW Cromwell never really repealed the ban on Jews, he just failed to enforce it. IIRC the ban was not repealed until the mid 1800's.

From Wiki:

Jews remained in England, albeit clandestinely. Henry VIII imported two great musical dynasties from Venice: the Bassanos and the Lupos. originally both these families had been expelled from Spain in 1492. Many members of the Bassano and Lupo were composers, musicians and instrument makers. Anthony Bassano, a direct descendant, is a professional musician in London today. Elizabeth I had a Jewish physician.

Toward the middle of the seventeenth century a considerable number of Marrano merchants settled in London and formed there a secret congregation, at the head of which was Antonio Fernandez Carvajal. Samuel Maylott, a French merchant, has many descendants in England. They conducted a large business with the Levant, East and West Indies, Canary Islands, and Brazil, and above all with the Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal.

See also History of the Marranos in England

116 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:50:03pm

re: #114 Alouette

Will they be called "self-hating" Muslims?

By the islamists? Certainly.

117 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:51:11pm

re: #115 researchok

See also History of the Marranos in England

"Marranos" were Jews who converted to Christianity. Of course converted Jews were welcome. Openly practicing Jews were banned.

118 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:52:36pm

Once again, Pam Geller can't keep off the bottle long enough to write something without vodka typos.

119 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:52:42pm

re: #112 Alouette

Yes it was. No Jews were permitted in England until Cromwell.

BTW Cromwell never really repealed the ban on Jews, he just failed to enforce it. IIRC the ban was not repealed until the mid 1800's.

As an aside, my antecedents were Spanish Sephardic Jews who migrated to Holland in 1492. Less than 100 years later, they were in England, where they stayed.

120 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:54:59pm

re: #80 researchok

If one catches a vile slur nowadays made from someone under the age of 60 it is more likely to be Islamophobic than Anti-Semitic.

Just on personal experience over the last few years.

121 researchok  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:57:47pm

re: #120 wozzablog

If one catches a vile slur nowadays made from someone under the age of 60 it is more likely to be Islamophobic than Anti-Semitic.

Just on personal experience over the last few years.

No doubt that's a reality- but not the whole picture.

That said, see the CST Antisemitic incident report 2008

122 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:58:34pm

Best thing is to stay far, far away from such disputes...(otherwise, one risks getting caught in the middle).

123 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:00:05pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

[...]The British Parliament doesn't have the nutcase problem the European Parliament does (excepting that asshole George Galloway, of course).

One could argue that the British Parliament is a close second in terms of nutcases.

124 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:02:27pm

re: #120 wozzablog

If one catches a vile slur nowadays made from someone under the age of 60 it is more likely to be Islamophobic than Anti-Semitic.

Just on personal experience over the last few years.

I don't like that word. Much what gets labeled "Islamophobia" is actually quite rational fear of Radical Islam and sharia.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:04:52pm

re: #20 Obdicut

Holy crap, they're affiliated with Combat 18?

Those guys are killers. Thugs and killers. not just play-actors. They have murdered people and I'm sure they felt great about it.

Didn't they nail someone to his floor once?

126 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:07:06pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

There was an article in today's National Post about "toxic classrooms" in Canada. It comes from certain segments of the Muslim immigrant population who import rank antisemitism (and parents who don't seem to think hatred of Jews is wrong.) (There's also a parliamentary committee on antisemitism currently underway.)

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:07:46pm

re: #46 Obdicut

They hated us because we had 100% literacy, and that just pisses people off.

Seriously, I think you're absolutely right. The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews, and I doubt any European even has a clue what the Roma religion is like.

It's racial, with a little religious spin when it becomes useful...us and the Roma both.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:08:34pm

re: #49 MandyManners

But, Islam is not a race.

True. But there is still a lot of racism in anti-Islam agitprop.

129 brookly red  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:10:01pm

re: #95 _RememberTonyC

can he pray for my NE patriots? they trail NO by 10

dey be toast.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:10:25pm

re: #64 researchok

Not entirely accurate or fair.

At a time when anti Semitism was de riguer in most European societies the UK was the Garden of Eden.

Certainly better than much of Europe, at least when Jews were permitted in.

131 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:12:21pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

I use it justifiably after hearing a lot of "muslims coming here taking our jobs, houses...etc etc etc". If it were directed of people of one articular Colour it would be racism.

The sentiment springs from fear and hatred after 7/7 - but I have not in the casual and off hand manner I have expereinced it through living in a mixed community been led to believe there is any thought attached what so ever. It is not predominantly "anti-sharia" it is "anti-muslim" with no rationallity attached.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:13:20pm

re: #96 Alouette

No, but Jews were persecuted even when they stopped practicing Judaism.

According to some articles I read today, only ten percent of Muslims in Switzerland are practicing. The Yugoslavs in particular tend to be sort of 'twice a year' Muslims. That's not stopping the crazies from hating them.

Helps that they're immigrants, I imagine.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:14:01pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Where's a Talmudic scholar when you need one?

brb

Wouldn't help. Judaism doesn't really have a 'race' category. We're an 'am'.

134 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:14:38pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But there is still a lot of racism in anti-Islam agitprop.

It is bigotry, not racism.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:14:47pm

re: #102 Alouette

Jews were banned from setting foot in England until Oliver Cromwell allowed them back in the mid 1600's.

And being an Irish Litvak, I frickin' HATE Cromwell, so I tend not to give him much credit there. ;)

136 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:15:08pm

re: #131 wozzablog

I use it justifiably after hearing a lot of "muslims coming here taking our jobs, houses...etc etc etc". If it were directed of people of one articular Colour it would be racism.

The sentiment springs from fear and hatred after 7/7 - but I have not in the casual and off hand manner I have expereinced it through living in a mixed community been led to believe there is any thought attached what so ever. It is not predominantly "anti-sharia" it is "anti-muslim" with no rationallity attached.

Well, I'm not friend that sort of hate, I assure. I'm just leery of the word because organizations like CAIR tend to use it as a club to beat anyone who calls for anti-terrorist measure or criticizes Islam in any way, hateful or not.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:15:51pm

re: #112 Alouette

Yes it was. No Jews were permitted in England until Cromwell.

BTW Cromwell never really repealed the ban on Jews, he just failed to enforce it. IIRC the ban was not repealed until the mid 1800's.

There were a scattering of unofficial Jews over the years IIRC--merchants passing through, and a few court doctors. No community until the Commonwealth, though.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:16:28pm

re: #116 Sharmuta

By the islamists? Certainly.

Probably also by Robert Spencer.

//

139 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:17:01pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

No need for a sarc tag.

140 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:17:46pm

re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist

It's racial, with a little religious spin when it becomes useful...us and the Roma both.

I'd call it cultural, being a Sephardic Jew. I don't think 'race' is all that useful a term. But I'm nitpicking.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:18:59pm

re: #134 Bagua

It is bigotry, not racism.

There is still a lot of bigotry related to skin color and language group in anti-Islam agitprop.

Better?

142 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:23:27pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

What's pamela's excuse for her ignorance?

None.
BTW how many moderate Muslims recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State?

143 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #142 Spare O'Lake

None.
BTW how many moderate Muslims recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State?

That depends what you mean by "Jewish State".

I'd suggest that sentence is better if you just cut it off after "exist".

144 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:27:36pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

There is still a lot of bigotry related to skin color and language group in anti-Islam agitprop.

Better?

Yes, and there is an element of racism as well as often the minority Muslim groups do have a racial/ethnic identity.

For example, in the UK Pakistanis make up a large percentage of the Muslims. Thus the slur against them is derived from the word Pakistani. The same slur will be used against non-Pakistani groups who simply look like them, such as Indians or Sikhs. They are often not Muslim and may themselves be bigoted/fearful towards Muslims.

145 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:35:09pm

re: #143 Obdicut

That depends what you mean by "Jewish State".

I'd suggest that sentence is better if you just cut it off after "exist".

At some point moderate Muslims will be forced to fish or cut bait. They cannot sit on the fence forever. The patience of tolerant non-Muslim victims of Islamofascism is not without limits.
How long will it take?

146 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:35:30pm

re: #143 Obdicut

That depends what you mean by "Jewish State".

I'd suggest that sentence is better if you just cut it off after "exist".

Perhaps you would prefer to cut off the "Jewish State" part of Israel, as would most anti-Israel Muslims and certainly the "palestinians".

I'd suggest we leave the 'Exist as a Jewish State' part intact as a core reality.

147 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:48:52pm

re: #146 Bagua

Perhaps you would prefer to cut off the "Jewish State" part of Israel, as would most anti-Israel Muslims and certainly the "palestinians".

I'd suggest we leave the 'Exist as a Jewish State' part intact as a core reality.

What if a majority of the inhabitants of Israel are not, in fact, Jewish? Should it still remain a Jewish state?

I don't like any aspect of a state that holds to any sort of racial, cultural, or religious purity. I won't make any exceptions for that, not even for my own people. I strongly support Israel's existence, think it's unfathomably stupid and arrogant and hypocritical of the Arab world not to recognize it as a legitimate state. I think that they are in a nearly impossible position with the Palestinians where no option leaves them looking good or able to act in a perfectly good way. That doesn't mean I have to accept that Israel as any more than Israel.

148 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:50:14pm

re: #146 Bagua

There's a text, "Israel and the Family of Nations" by Alexander Yakobson, and Amnon Rubinstein. They present the argument in favor of a secular Jewish state called Israel. amazon link here.

149 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:51:24pm

re: #147 Obdicut

So you're a what? an anti-Zionist?

150 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:51:53pm

re: #149 J.S.

So you're a what? an anti-Zionist?

How do you get that from this?

I strongly support Israel's existence, think it's unfathomably stupid and arrogant and hypocritical of the Arab world not to recognize it as a legitimate state.

151 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:53:33pm

re: #147 Obdicut

What if a majority of the inhabitants of Israel are not, in fact, Jewish? Should it still remain a Jewish state?

I don't like any aspect of a state that holds to any sort of racial, cultural, or religious purity. I won't make any exceptions for that, not even for my own people. I strongly support Israel's existence, think it's unfathomably stupid and arrogant and hypocritical of the Arab world not to recognize it as a legitimate state. I think that they are in a nearly impossible position with the Palestinians where no option leaves them looking good or able to act in a perfectly good way. That doesn't mean I have to accept that Israel as any more than Israel.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Israel was conceived and born as a Jewish State, and that is the only way the Jews there can survive.
That is the reality of the Islamofascist hatred.
So piss off.

152 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:57:30pm

Israstine?

153 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:59:12pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

I'm Jewish, and I disagree with you entirely.

154 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:00:40pm

re: #147 Obdicut

What if a majority of the inhabitants of Israel are not, in fact, Jewish? Should it still remain a Jewish state?

I don't like any aspect of a state that holds to any sort of racial, cultural, or religious purity. I won't make any exceptions for that, not even for my own people. I strongly support Israel's existence, think it's unfathomably stupid and arrogant and hypocritical of the Arab world not to recognize it as a legitimate state. I think that they are in a nearly impossible position with the Palestinians where no option leaves them looking good or able to act in a perfectly good way. That doesn't mean I have to accept that Israel as any more than Israel.

Your problem not mine.

Israel is a Jewish State.

Period. End of discussion.

155 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:04:16pm

re: #154 Bagua

Your problem not mine.

Israel is a Jewish State.

Period. End of discussion.

The only form of government I recognize as valid is a form of democracy, without respect to creed, color, race, or any other attribute. One person, one vote.

I don't think it's useful, ever, to say 'end of discussion' either.

156 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:35:59pm

re: #155 Obdicut

The only form of government I recognize as valid is a form of democracy, without respect to creed, color, race, or any other attribute. One person, one vote.

I don't think it's useful, ever, to say 'end of discussion' either.

I care not what you recognize.

Take your "palastinian" authority talking points somewhere else.

157 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:46:19pm

re: #156 Bagua

As has been noted by others: "“It is racist to suggest that all peoples have a right to self-determination in the land of their ancestors, with the exception of the Jews.”

158 J.S.  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 8:51:05pm

Article: Zionism is not racism...link here.

159 Flavia  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 9:04:12pm

re: #155 Obdicut

The only form of government I recognize as valid is a form of democracy, without respect to creed, color, race, or any other attribute. One person, one vote.

I think you are confused - and it's very understandable. Israel is both a Jewish state & a secular one. There is no "racial purity" demanded in Israel - people of any religion and any race are welcomed there - even into positions of power. One person, one vote, no matter what.

Israel just knows that she has to hold onto her Jewish identity (which I think is the best descriptor) so she can continue to be a haven for Jews the world over. Rather like Judaism itself among religions, Israel is unique among the nations.

As far as Israel being a theocracy, she is no more that than the US - with it's official Xian holidays (everyone see the tree go up this week?).

160 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:28:35pm

re: #159 Flavia

There is no "racial purity" demanded in Israel - people of any religion and any race are welcomed there - even into positions of power. One person, one vote, no matter what.


I know, and I'm saying I'm fine with that. Other people are defending a very different idea of Israel.

re: #156 Bagua

I care not what you recognize.

Take your "palastinian" authority talking points somewhere else.

You really have no clue who I am, if that's what you think of me. Israel has a complete right to exist. Israel is a democracy. I support democracies.

You're so caught up in the worst possible interpretation of what I'm saying you're misrepresenting what Israel actually is. It's a democracy first and foremost.

161 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:03:25pm

re: #160 Obdicut

The recent "peace process" hit a roadblock when the President of the "palestinian" authority refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish State.

If the cap fits, wear it.

162 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:05:20pm

re: #161 Bagua

And if you force everyone who only recognizes democracies to wear that cap, then you're not being very smart.

I recognize Israel's right to exist as a state. I'm not even sure what you mean by "Jewish" state, or how you think it is a Jewish state.

163 Bagua  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 11:28:24pm

re: #162 Obdicut

Your opinion means nothing to me. Go sing to your mates in the UN.

164 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 3:56:08am

re: #46 Obdicut

The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews, and I doubt any European even has a clue what the Roma religion is like.

"Roma" is not a religion. The Roma people, aka Gypsies, are 100% Roman Catholics.

165 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 4:00:47am

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Do remember, Killgore, that the UK runs its system differently than the continent. UK MPs are elected by districts called ridings.

Nonsense!

Only Yorkshire has "ridings" and they have nothing to do with electoral districts:
[Link: www.yorkshire-england.co.uk...]

Electoral districts are known as "constituencies" or "wards".

166 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:33:41am

re: #163 Bagua

Your opinion means nothing to me. Go sing to your mates in the UN.

Your version of what I am and who I am is incorrect, and I have no clue why you prefer it to the reality.

You are angrily telling me that I'm repeating Palestinian authority talking points when I say that it's shameful for the Arab states not to recognize Israel.

Why?

167 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:36:45am

re: #164 Paco from Sefarad

"Roma" is not a religion. The Roma people, aka Gypsies, are 100% Roman Catholics.

I'm afraid that's not true in the least. Roma tend to be the religion of whatever area they're in. In the Balkans, there are Christian and Muslim populations, and the Christian can be Eastern Orthodox or Catholic. In the rest of Europe, there are Protestant Roma.

Of course, since they're an oppressed group, they're not generally fully allowed to participate in religious life, so how much they really are members of any religion is open to debate.

168 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:27:01am

re: #167 Obdicut

The fact remains that "Roma" is not a a religion, and if you're talking about European Roma, which you were, they are predominately Catholics.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I'm speaking as one European who does "have a clue".

I also take issue with your claim that "The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews".

You'll be telling us next that the Muslims are The New Jews and that the IDF behaves like the Nazis!

169 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:32:06am

re: #167 Obdicut

Of course, since they're an oppressed group, they're not generally fully allowed to participate in religious life, so how much they really are members of any
religion is open to debate.

Tell that to the Pope, and the Spanish Gypsies!

[Link: romnews.com...]

170 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 8:39:58am

re: #168 Paco from Sefarad

The fact remains that "Roma" is not a a religion, and if you're talking about European Roma, which you were, they are predominately Catholics.

I never said that Roma was a religion, though they have independent religious traditions unique to themselves.

I also take issue with your claim that "The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews".

Well, a good way to fix that would be to improve Europe's treatment of the Roma.

You'll be telling us next that the Muslims are The New Jews and that the IDF behaves like the Nazis!

Since Muslims are the majority population in a lot of countries, it makes no sense to say they're the "new Jews". If you're going to try to slander me, try to have the slander make sense-- say Palestinians, not Muslims.

Given that I've repeated several times that Israel has a perfect right to exist and that it's a democracy, I'm not sure why you'd think I'd call them Nazis. I don't think the Nazis had a perfect right to exist.

Tell that to the Pope, and the Spanish Gypsies!

Okay. I will. The Pope isn't doing nearly enough to speak out against what's happening to the Roma in Italy right now.

171 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 9:34:18am

re: #170 obdicut

I never said that Roma was a religion

Yes you did:

I doubt any European even has a clue what the Roma religion is like.

I also take issue with your claim that "The treatment of the Roma in Europe is very similar to the treatment of the Jews".

Well, a good way to fix that would be to improve Europe's treatment of the Roma.

Not Europe's treatment of the Jews?

Since Muslims are the majority population in a lot of countries, it makes no sense to say they're the "new Jews". If you're going to try to slander me, try to have the slander make sense-- say Palestinians, not Muslims.

I'm not trying to slander you, just trying to understand what it is exactly that you're saying because even you don't seem to know, and to correct inaccuracies in your posts.

In which European country are Muslims a majority?

Are you really saying that "Palestinians" are the "New Jews"?

Why Muslims are not the new Jews

The Pope isn't doing nearly enough to speak out against what's happening to the Roma in Italy right now.

Nor has any Pope ever spoken out against what happens to Jews anywhere, but you seem to be more concerned about the Roma and the "Palestinians".

172 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 9:48:07am

re: #171 Paco from Sefarad

Yes you did:

Sorry, what i meant by that was the religion of the Roma. My bad.

I'm not trying to slander you, just trying to understand what it is exactly that you're saying because even you don't seem to know, and to correct inaccuracies in your posts.

Yes, that certainly doesn't look like you're slandering me.



In which European country are Muslims a majority?

None. What are you talking about?


Are you really saying that "Palestinians" are the "New Jews"?


No, I was saying I don't believe that, but that if you wanted to accuse me of doing so, at least get the group right. I do not believe that statement makes any sense at all, but it makes even less sense when you say that the Muslims are the new jews.

Nor has any Pope ever spoken out against what happens to Jews anywhere, but you seem to be more concerned about the Roma and the "Palestinians".

Well, the Jews aren't currently as persecuted in Europe, though obviously the Fascists who are coming to power all over still hate us and want us out of their racially-pure bullshit. Roma are actively persecuted, and it's the responsibility of we Jews to speak up for people who are being oppressed as we were.

Please note: That is about the Roma, not the Palestinians. I happily speak about Palestinian oppression, especially when I point out that the Arab states are terribly oppressive of Palestinians and absolute hypocrites for using them as a political tool to attack Israel.

You can keep attacking the strawman you've built of me, if you want.

173 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 10:15:05am

re: #172 obdicut

I haven't made any straw man of you, you are instead a slippery fish of your own making.

Just an attempt to respond to some of your points:

Jews are currently persecuted in Europe. Whether more so or less than Muslims or Roma is of no interest to me.

It is no longer the Fascists who hate us but the Liberal Left. Get with the program.

Roma are actively persecuted, and it's the responsibility of we Jews to speak up for people who are being oppressed as we were.

How very noble of you. However, I feel the first responsibility of a Jew is to speak up for Jews and Israel.

I still don't understand why you dragged the red herring of Roma persecution into this thread, and I still disagree with you that the persecution suffered by them is in any way comparable with that suffered by Jews.

174 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 10:27:59am

re: #173 Paco from Sefarad

I haven't made any straw man of you, you are instead a slippery fish of your own making.

Just an attempt to respond to some of your points:

Jews are currently persecuted in Europe. Whether more so or less than Muslims or Roma is of no interest to me.

It is no longer the Fascists who hate us but the Liberal Left. Get with the program.

How very noble of you. However, I feel the first responsibility of a Jew is to speak up for Jews and Israel.

I still don't understand why you dragged the red herring of Roma persecution into this thread, and I still disagree with you that the persecution suffered by them is in any way comparable with that suffered by Jews.

If you, as a Jew, don't find the rise of the Fascists in Europe to be chilling, I don't know what to say. They haven't changed. Just because they say they hate Muslims now doesn't mean they like Jews. They still hate us. The UK is hypocritical and asinine about Israel, quite often. But the Fascists would love to see Jews and Muslims war with each other; they'd be happy to have us kill each other off.

If you're not interested in the persecution of the Roma, why should anyone who isn't a Jew be interested in the persecution of the Jews?

175 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 12:03:16pm

re: #174 Obdicut

What is chilling, and what you don't seem to grasp, is that it is the Liberal Left are the real enemies of Jews and Israel right now.

Haven't you even noticed the alliances between the Left and Islam?

The Fascists, as you rightly say, still hate us. They always have and they always will. That's not new and I am under no illusion about what their real agenda is.

What is new is the antisemitic hate speech that has now become the norm among the European left. It's hard sometimes to distinguish between what the Left is saying in recent years and what the Fascists have always said.

See here: [Link: cifwatch.com...]

I find that far more "chilling".

Your trolling about the Roma has no place on this thread. It is a diversion and even a form of denial.

You can accuse me of being insensitive to the persecution of the Roma if you wish, but the truth is by bringing them into this thread you are minimising the real threat to European Jews and Israel, and that real threat comes from the Left, not the Fascist right.

176 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 12:09:47pm

re: #174 Obdicut

Try this one too:
[Link: cifwatch.com...]

177 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 12:48:20pm

re: #175 Paco from Sefarad

That you say that me simply bringing up the oppression of the Roma is 'trolling' is ridiculous and sick.

The Roma are being persecuted. It's true. The fascists, who are the topic of the article, are doing that persecution, right now, in Europe. They are also persecuting Jews. For some reason, instead of seeing that this makes common cause between Jews and the Roma against fascists, in a thread about fascists, you'd rather focus on the European left-- while accusing me of trolling.

We can agree that we perceive different 'threats' to Jews, without all the accusations that I'm calling the IDF Nazis. Doing so is offensive and stupid, and I have no clue what you're trying to achieve, other than venting.

I think you're wrong that the fascists are less of a threat to Jews than the European left.

178 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 1:10:07pm
I think you're wrong that the fascists are less of a threat to Jews than the European left.

Nobody with any sense takes fascists seriously and they haven't a chance in hell of achieving power.

The left on the other hand are in power and are vehemently antisemitic.

I suggest you actually take the time to read the links I provided and then draw your own conclusions.

You could read this too, and other posts on the same blog:
[Link: www.robinshepherdonline.com...]

All of this is far more pertinent to the topic under discussion here than the poor Roma.

179 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 1:12:31pm

re: #178 Paco from Sefarad

Switzerland just banned Minarets after a campaign by the fascists.

Many fascist groups have been winning more and more in national elections. Italy is pretty damn fascist again.

The topic of the thread is the fascists.

If you don't think that fascists are that big a deal, why not tell Charles, not me? He's the one who started the thread about fascists instead of the liberal left.

But don't accuse me of trolling in a thread about fascists when I talk about fascists and what they're doing. It's stupid.

180 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 1:18:00pm

re: #179 Obdicut

Wow, you are a fast reader!

... so what did you glean from my links?

/tumbleweed/

181 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 1:27:47pm

re: #180 Paco from Sefarad

Wow, you are a fast reader!

... so what did you glean from my links?

/tumbleweed/

The watch blog seems a very good resource for keeping track of extremist anti-Jewish statements. I'm glad it exists.

I've read Shepherd's stuff before, and I don't think he's very knowledgeable or wise. He seems to view Lec Walensa as some sort of pro-capitalist figure, which is kind of insane. His writing style is a permanent sneer.

Now, can you admit that accusing me of trolling by talking about fascists, in a thread about fascists, is pretty stupid?

Or did you just want to watch that tumbleweed, because, man, tumbleweeds are cool?

182 Gus  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 1:35:29pm

re: #178 Paco from Sefarad

Nobody with any sense takes fascists seriously and they haven't a chance in hell of achieving power.

The left on the other hand are in power and are vehemently antisemitic.

I suggest you actually take the time to read the links I provided and then draw your own conclusions.

You could read this too, and other posts on the same blog:
[Link: www.robinshepherdonline.com...]

All of this is far more pertinent to the topic under discussion here than the poor Roma.

Anti-semitism, racism, hate, etc. are all wrong regardless of the ideology of the perpetrators. The fact remains that these European fascist groups such as those gathered around SIOE, Vlaams Belang, pro-Koln, BNP etc. all have their roots with neo-Nazi parties in Europe and are activley practicing open xenophobia. My disgust for these groups do not equate to approval of the opposite form of leftist anti-semitism nor does it mean one is complicit or approving of radical Islam.

I find it a little difficult to take Robin Sheperd seriously when he say this:

My own take on this is that when one puts all of the above together it would be better to see parties like the BNP as movements which fall outside the traditional terminology of Right and Left altogether. Better just call them “racists” or “chauvinists”. That at least has the merit of making a truthful appraisal which is readily understandable to a wide audience and which may help build the kind of broad-based coalition we will need to defeat them.

The title of the blog where this quote is found is Know Your Enemy: Is the far-Right really the far-Left?. Again we find another Jonah Goldberg styled argument that all things evel are from the left. In this case Sheperd is arguing in a Jonah Goldberg Lite style saying that that they are neither right wing or left wing. It's time the right wing took responsibility for faction within their group and accept the fact that the BNP is a faction of the right-wing. The only socialist aspect of the BNP is regarding labor but even then it reflects a "whites only" and xenophobic aspect.

As for the BBC ignoring the anti-semitic news on the left I would be an agreement. However, we are not the BBC here and the focus of the article here is the far right-wing fascist underpinnings behind the SIOE movement and its groupies such as Combat 18 and other extremist groups. In the end the far-right and the far-left are replete with dangerous ideas but in this matter, beware of the Trojan Horse.

183 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 2:18:15pm

re: #181 Obdicut

The watch blog seems a very good resource for keeping track of extremist anti-Jewish statements. I'm glad it exists.

Those extremists are the Liberal Left, not fascists in the classic sense.

I've read Shepherd's stuff before, and I don't think he's very knowledgeable or wise.

Of course you know better than him.

[Link: www.robinshepherdonline.com...]

Robin Shepherd, Director, International Affairs at the Henry Jackson Society in London, has held senior fellowships at some of the world’s most prestigious public policy institutes since leaving international journalism in 2003 when his last position was Moscow Bureau Chief for The Times of London.

Shepherd’s key areas of expertise are transatlantic relations, American foreign policy, Middle Eastern(particularly Israeli) relations with the West, Russia, central and eastern Europe, NATO and the European Union. His forthcoming book: “A State Beyond the Pale, Europe’s Problem with Israel” looks at the reasons for widespread hostility to Israel in Europe among the continent’s opinion formers.

He joined the Henry Jackson Society in March 2009. Shepherd entered the think tank world in 2003 with a public policy fellowship at the Woodrow Wilson International Institute for Scholars in Washington D.C. where he focused his attention on the dual expansions of NATO and the EU and their impact on transatlantic relations. Subsequently he became an adjunct fellow of the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies. Based in central Europe he wrote widely for international media and journals, focusing on transatlantic relations, Russia and relations with the Middle East. In 2006 he was appointed as a senior transatlantic fellow of the German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF), also based in central Europe. He returned to London and joined Chatham House in June 2007 where he ran the Europe programme.

Shepherd is widely quoted in the international media and writes commentaries for a variety of publications. He speaks Russian, Slovak, Czech and French. He studied Russian at the University of London’s School of Slavonic and East European Studies and took a masters in political theory from the London School of Economics. His first book - “Czechoslovakia: The Velvet Revolution and Beyond”, published in 2000 - looked at the first decade of post-communist transition in the Czech Republic and Slovakia.


Now, can you admit that accusing me of trolling by talking about fascists, in a thread about fascists, is pretty stupid?

No, because I accused you of trolling by bringing Roma into the debate. Discussing fascists is what this thread is all about - Fascists and Jews - Roma are not relevant here.

By the way, I live in Spain which according to a recent Anti Defamation League report is the most antisemitic country in Europe. Spain is governed by the Socialists who's leader is on record as saying he can understand why the Holocaust took place, ie: it was the Jews' fault. I find that much more worrying than a tiny minority of fascists in the UK who are widely condemned by all and sundry, and rightly so.

184 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 2:25:23pm

re: #183 Paco from Sefarad

No, because I accused you of trolling by bringing Roma into the debate. Discussing fascists is what this thread is all about - Fascists and Jews - Roma are not relevant here.

Roma are being persecuted by the fascists. It's relevant. And again, as a Jew, it should be incumbent upon you to speak up for those who are oppressed as we were. To not do so is to betray the past.

Those extremists are the Liberal Left, not fascists in the classic sense.

Nor did I say they were fascists.

Forgive me for being more upset about fascism's rise than the Left in Europe. I'm uncertain what the president of Spain said-- if you have a link, feel free-- but I am dead certain that fascists killed all of my great-aunts, great-uncles and cousins.

Oh, and appeal to authority: noted with bemusement.

185 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 2:47:45pm

re: #184 Obdicut

Please don't dare tell me what I, "as a Jew" should be thinking or saying.

No, you didn't say that those commentors at The Guardian were fascists, but neither do you seem to want to accept that they are Liberal Lefties.

More than thirty of my family, including a child of four and another of nine were murdered by the Nazis so please let's not try to score points.

Here's a link to Zapatero's quote, and by the way he is not "the president of Spain", he is President of the Government.

In Spain, anti-Semitism is new leftist trend

While I'm at it here are these links too:

Report: Anti-Semitism on Rise in Spain

and

Polluting the Public Square: Anti-Semitic Discourse In Spain

186 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 3:00:51pm

re: #185 Paco from Sefarad


Please don't dare tell me what I, "as a Jew" should be thinking or saying.

Why? You're telling me.

No, you didn't say that those commentors at The Guardian were fascists, but neither do you seem to want to accept that they are Liberal Lefties.

That's just my horror of tautologies.

In Spain, anti-Semitism is new leftist trend

Is anyone confirming this story other than Vidal Quadras? The Jewish family that was his host, what have they said?


Report: Anti-Semitism on Rise in Spain

and

Polluting the Public Square: Anti-Semitic Discourse In Spain

Thanks for those links. You read them, right? You saw they detail fascist and right-wing anti-semitism as well as left-wing, right?

I'm sorry that Spain is becoming more anti-Semitic. I hadn't realized it had gotten so bad over there. The old libels about us being powerful are especially painful when Jews are being persecuted; if we were so powerful, we'd hardly be persecuted as we are. The government and media seem to be looking for someone to blame again, and, as usual, it's the Jews.

I still hold that the fascists are a greater threat to Jews than the European Left. I certainly think that the European Left are hypocritical and unfair towards Israel, but I do not conflate Jews and Israel. If you do, that is probably the largest source of our disagreement.

187 Paco from Sefarad  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 3:21:38pm

re: #186 Obdicut

I have at no point told you what you should say or think "as a Jew".

It was Zapatero who hosted the dinner, not "the Jewish family".

[Link: hnn.us...]

On the program “Más se perdió en Cuba” on Spanish Radio Intereconomía, Alejo Vidal-Quadras, leader of the PP [Partida Popular or People's Party] told of an event that occurred a few months ago with Mr. and Mrs. Benarroch and the Zapatero family. Apparently during dinner Zapatero hurled anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic tirades so excessive that the Benarrochs (a Jewish family of furriers) had to call his attention to the extremist tone of his anti-Semitic discourse. Nevertheless Zapatero was ecstatic and kept on going until he threw out this pearl: “It is understandable that someone might justify the Holocaust.”

After those words the Benarrochs got up and left the [Palace of] Moncloa, where the dinner was being held, and since then have wanted nothing to do with the President of the Government.

I do not conflate Jews and Israel. If you do, that is probably the largest source of our disagreement.

"You can take the Jew out of Israel but you can't take Israel out of the Jew."

Well, somebody has managed to do just that in your case!

Somebody else once said, "I'm proud to be a Jew, and even if I wasn't proud I'd still be a Jew, so I may as well be proud of it."

Shame you've lost your pride and defend the left. The Guardian's "Comment is free" is full of people attacking Israel and speaking "as a Jew". It's quite the done thing in Islington at dinner parties and indispensible if you want to ignore the elephant in the room.

188 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 3:40:05pm

re: #178 Paco from Sefarad

Nobody with any sense takes fascists seriously and they haven't a chance in hell of achieving power.

You are right that there are anti-Semitism on the left in Europe, although I would appreciate several sources or a more solid source on Zapatero's comments. The anti-Semitism on the left is mostly - but not exclusively - found on the far left. In addition, many people hold views on Israel that are extremely biased, unrooted in reality, silly, stupid, even disgusting, but not an expression of hatred against Jews as a religious or ethnic group.

However, you are wrong when you claim that fascists do not have a chance of achieving power. In several countries, neofascist parties - inspired more clearly by Alain de Benoist than Adolf Hitler, of course - receive a considerable number of votes. The nativist right in Europe did disgustingly well in the European elections this summer; and amongst those elected were politicians from the Hungarian Jobbik. One would not have to look hard to find anti-Semitic statements there...

In Spain, of course, parties such as Falange Auténtica are negligible, although FA has been able to win some county seats in the past. In Belgium, the Vlaams Belang is shunned by other political parties through the socalled cordon sanitaire, but this is not the case everywhere.

The larger Eurofascist parties are perfectly capable of influencing the general political climate. As Obdicut points out, Roma are already victimised as a result of this; it is not difficult to find examples; neither from Italy (where neo-fascists have had so much electoral success that they already have "achieved power") nor from Eastern Europe. There are other victims, too.

I think that's something we all should worry about, and - as a European - I also feel obliged to do what I can to battle it.

I feel the first responsibility of a Jew is to speak up for Jews and Israel.

This makes me think of Martin Niemöllers words:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

189 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 3:59:12pm
Shame you've lost your pride and defend the left.

You're not worth talking to.

190 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 4:05:36pm

re: #188 oslogin

Having been dragged to several UK Socialist Worker Party meetings in my miss spent youth - i can say there is a very strong Jewish presence there in fund raising and organising. There are other far left parties - but to say there is an anti-semitic group think across the far left is very wrong.

The re-emergent far far right "British Peoples Party", "NF" (again) and "BNP" are very anti-semitic but they are pro-israel. As it gets the "Jews out" and also annoys the Muslims.

There is anti-semitism/racism/xenophobia among all political communities to one extent or another as there will always be individuals who are hateful, distrustful and scared. As long as there are prejudiced individuals who group together there will be parties and groups who prey on them and collect them.

The major parties - and the majority of minor ones in the UK are not purposefully seeking out the prejudiced - the ones that are though, are on the Right.

191 OrtegaGasset  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:35:01pm

Paco, Oslogin

You may be interested in recently-published books analysing the affinity of the left for Islam - two by Bruce Bawer, one by the already-cited Robin Shepherd, one by Jamie Glazov.

About the fascist right: In France, the FN is gradually shifting to an entirely anti-Islamic mode, on the not-so-indefensible grounds that Islam is a far greater threat to "native" French culture than Jews (who are smaller in number and who are non-violent). I even know French Jews who privately admit to voting FN!

About Zapatero: In polls, Spain and Greece consistently rank as the most anti-Semitic countries in Europe. Zapatero is unquestionably anti-Zionist:
[Link: www.20minutos.es...]

192 Paco from Sefarad  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 1:57:00am

Those who still deny that the new left hs become even more antisemitic than the old right need only look at the comments on any post about Israel or Jews on The Guardian's "Comment is free".

Harry's Place is also full of posts exposing the "Socialist Worker's Party".

Statements like "There is anti-semitism/racism/xenophobia among all political communities to one extent or another as there will always be individuals who are hateful, distrustful and scared" only demonstrate the true depth of denial and ignorance in some parts.

193 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:44:08am

re: #190 wozzablog

Having been dragged to several UK Socialist Worker Party meetings in my miss spent youth - i can say there is a very strong Jewish presence there in fund raising and organising. There are other far left parties - but to say there is an anti-semitic group think across the far left is very wrong.

I can't say that I know the English far left much at all. I do however know the Norwegian far left a bit too well.

The whole scene is extremely anti-Israel, which does not necessarily imply anti-Semitism. This tendency is also strongly present in the leftist government coalition partner Socialist Left (left-social democratic).

However, there is also real anti-Semitism to be found, for instance in the ranks of the Communist party (which have a snowballs chance in hell to gain national political power), in some other Marxist groups and also amongst the Trotskists. Many of these people don't really understand that their statements are anti-Semitic, though, and it's camouflaged as critique against "Zionist lobbies" and the like.

194 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:44am

re: #186 Obdicut

The old libels about us being powerful are especially painful when Jews are being persecuted; if we were so powerful, we'd hardly be persecuted as we are.

According to those - ehrm - lovely people over at Stormfront, Zapatero - too - is a Jew, by the way.

195 Paco from Sefarad  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:59:13am

re: #194 oslogin

Antisemitism is rife in Latin America too. Venezuelan Jews are leaving in their droves and Chavez and his pal Ahmonajihad compete to see who can deny the Holocaust more effectively.

Of course the Jews are to blame for everything bad that happens in the world.

Guess Whose Fault It Is In Honduras?

196 Paco from Sefarad  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:45:17pm

The PSC is a Palestinian terrorist supporting organisation. They are on the left, they are not "fascists", they are backed by the Trades Union Congress and receive funds from Hamas.

Scary enough for you "Obdicut"?


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