Very serene. Just in time for Festivus.

Clouds reach for the stratosphere... do they have feelings? Could they tell stories of the humans below, in their ships made miniscule by the stature of the ocean?

With but shopping days to go, we have the right tune for you:

It's World AIDS Day today.

People living with HIV:

33.4 million people living with HIV worldwide
31.3 million adults
15.7 million women
2.1 million children under 15

New HIV cases in 2008:

2.7 million people
2.3 million adults
430,000 children under 15

HIV-related deaths in 2008:

2 million total deaths

Well now,
Brooks run into the Ocean,
Ocean run into the sea
I don't run into my baby, you know man
Somebody's got the best of me
But I say that's all right...

re: #3 Sharmuta

Cures for HIV: zero
Lifespan of person diagnosed with HIV: ??

People think we've fixed HIV, and people with HIV will live a good long life just like the rest of us. Truth is, no one knows how long one will live. The "treatments" have not been around long enough to say. And a lot of "treatments" wreck havoc on a person's day-to-day life in ways most people have no idea.

Clearly HIV is just a code word.

/

Drew Brees is a stud. What a performance tonight.

Wow! Turns out the Monday Night Football game had a special guest in attendence: Skeletor.

re: #7 borgcube

Yeah. I'm glad he shut that narcissistic bitch Bill Belichick up, and put him in his place for a bit.

/Off to Google images to search for Bill Belichick, jussst to make sure

re: #1 Sharmuta

Ok, I'll bite. What in the heck is that?

re: #10 borgcube

YOU SHOULD JUST GOOGLE IT IF YOU DONT KNOW!

/Or Wiki

re: #9 TheMatrix31

No kidding. I was hoping NO would have piled on a couple of more scores just to give Mr. Hoodie a taste of his own medicine.

But we here in San Diego have a new favorite coach to despise, Josh McDaniels, Hoodie Jr. What a punk.

re: #11 TheMatrix31

I did after I posted. I think I'm the only person on the planet who has never seen a Seinfeld episode. Or Cheers. Or fill_in_the_blank hospital or cop shows either.

WindupBird doesn't know all that much about football but he likes the Saints 8-)

re: #1 Sharmuta

Very serene. Just in time for Festivus.

I'm a fan of the Christmahanukwanzaakah ad from Virgin Mobile.

Anyone hear about "The Family", that odd religious outfit that councils adulterous Republican politicians? Seems they've been pushing their bigotry in Uganda.

"The Family" Behind Anti-Gay Act in Uganda

Africa has increasingly become a battle ground in the global proxy wars led by the American Religious Right. An important dimension of the struggle was discussed yesterday, by Jeff Sharlet, Talk to Action contributor and author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, appeared on the nationally syndicated NPR program, Fresh Air, with Terry Gross. In the course of the interview, Sharlet discussed the role of such prominent Family members in the news as Sen. John Ensign, Rep. Bart Stupak and Rep. Joe Pitts.

Sharlet also revealed that the sponsor of the notorious proposed, Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Act, David Bahati's is a member of The Family, as are other leading advocates, as well as President Museveni. There is a growing international effort to stop the bill.

Link to the text of the bill
Caught a cold, took the day off from work. No stupid jokes to post tonight. Good night

Nice looking ocean.

re: #16 checked08

Anyone hear about "The Family", that odd religious outfit that councils adulterous Republican politicians? Seems they've been pushing their bigotry in Uganda.

Link to the text of the bill
Caught a cold, took the day off from work. No stupid jokes to post tonight. Good night

Heard about it, but I'm not sure what to make of it. Most of it was an interview with Sharlet, who just released a book that pushes The Family, and who is apparently the only person who's written about it. A lot of it sounds awfully similar to the Illuminati - to be blunt, wild-eyed speculation without much in the way of actual fact backing it up. There seems to be at least some small kernel of truth in there somewhere, but a lot of the allegations made are hard to swallow and don't seem to have much support.

Seems odd, too, that an organization that's been around since the 30s, with this kind of scope, has flown completely under the radar all this time.

While listening to the interview, I kept wondering if Tom Hanks would be cast for the movie version.

re: #9 TheMatrix31

His place? You mean first place, right?

re: #19 Fenway_Nation

;) And whats the insinuation there?! AFC EAST?!

re: #12 borgcube

No kidding. I was hoping NO would have piled on a couple of more scores just to give Mr. Hoodie a taste of his own medicine.

But we here in San Diego have a new favorite coach to despise, Josh McDaniels, Hoodie Jr. What a punk.

How's San Diego doing against New England in meaningful (i.e. postseason) games? Hate Mr. Hoodie and the Pats all you want- San Diego doesn't even register with us...the laughable accolades heaped on the Jets for mouthing off like little punks after beating NE in September before New England broke their feet from kicking their asses so hard does register.

Kind of like playing Jay Cutler twice a year.

I am just getting on line here in Germany (it's 9:45 am) and missed last night's thread about why Charles abandoned the Right. I was never on board, but I agreed with the Jeffersonian notion that "the government is best that governs the least".

Unfortunately, the Right took that to its extremem: the ideal government is one that does not govern at all.

And in those areas where it is expected to operate, such as the military, it does not audit or control its spending, it just trusts private contractors to act in the public interest.

Jefferson's ideal would work if we were all yeoman farmers, living on our own land, barely within sight of the smoke from our neigbor's chimney. In a world where we enter into contracts and agreements entirely voluntarily and out of our sense of self-interest.

But that was more of an ideal than a reality even in Jefferson's time and is even less applicable now.

re: #20 TheMatrix31

;) And whats the insinuation there?! AFC EAST?!

Yep. It's not much of a division, but it's still ours.

re: #23 Fenway_Nation

I'm dreaming of a time where the AFC East wasn't so shitty, and the Patriots didn't reign supreme.

Those were some great years :)

re: #24 TheMatrix31

The best was yet to come...

Say, how 'bout those Texans? What's wrong- did they go for it on 4th and 2 late in the game, too?

What'd I say downstairs?

That post is already top story on memeorandum. Wheee!

[Link: www.memeorandum.com...]

Dreadzone : Fight The Power

re: #22 ralphieboy

I am just getting on line here in Germany (it's 9:45 am) and missed last night's thread about why Charles abandoned the Right. I was never on board, but I agreed with the Jeffersonian notion that "the government is best that governs the least".

Unfortunately, the Right took that to its extremem: the ideal government is one that does not govern at all.

And in those areas where it is expected to operate, such as the military, it does not audit or control its spending, it just trusts private contractors to act in the public interest.

Jefferson's ideal would work if we were all yeoman farmers, living on our own land, barely within sight of the smoke from our neigbor's chimney. In a world where we enter into contracts and agreements entirely voluntarily and out of our sense of self-interest.

But that was more of an ideal than a reality even in Jefferson's time and is even less applicable now.

So, let's not take note of Jefferson's political philosophy, nor should we try to put it in effect, nor should we glean anything from it. Why waste our time, since it's only an ideal, not worth our time.

So Ralphie, what's the alternative?

Culturekitchen!

Before there was a "netroots" or a "rightroots" there was a group of blog communities that moved the political commentary of the day: Slashdot, Metafilter, BoingBoing and Little Green Footballs. Not even DailyKos was relevant when I started reading (1999) and dwelling (2001) in the blogosphere.

Yet what's more interesting to me is how Charles has kept LGF close to his heart and his identity and to me that' what's so invaluable about this blog post. His blog has been a very personal journey. It wasn't meant to be a business plan. It wasn't meant to be his product. Little Green Footballs is Charles Johnson.

The blog has changed because he has changed and that's an amazing thing to own up to: That you weren't the "complete" person people thought you'd be. That the space in which you post a bit of your soul is not just a product or a brand. It is you.

Yet the bottom line is simple: Owning up to growing up after a certain age or status is not what most people expect or even want you to do. The fact Charles has done so and rather publicly is truly remarkable and fascinating.

Good job Chuck and welcome back.

Pam's House Blend.

It's up to nearly 600 comments at the time of this post, and I hate to break it to Mr. Johnson, but the Goldwater conservatives and moderates have been put six feet under by the theocrats and know-nothings. I don't know how you can wrest the GOP back from the crazies. I am under no illusion that Charles Johnson is now progressive or agrees with the Obama admin on policy (heaven knows we have enough beefs with the admin); I actually feel for him.

These low-brow conservatives that coo over Palin, Glenn Beck and Rush are sheep -- no critical thinking whatsoever, in denial about how they are shilling for policies that hurt them, instead they focus on blaming on the "other" -- that doesn't look like them, worship like them, believe in reproductive freedom or isn't heterosexual. With fumes that weak, how can that movement sustain itself? It's an incredible feat.

Glad to see that rumours of Edmund Standing's withdrawal from the blogosphere were greatly exaggerated:

Criminals and extremist ideology

Quote:

GUN-toting members of a new Birmingham teenage gang are boasting about becoming suicide bombers, it was claimed last night.

(snip)

Lee Barnes, BNP Legal Director, comments on this article: ‘Screw multi-culturalism’.

Of course, this actually has nothing to do with ‘multiculturalism’ and everything to do with young social deviants channeling their machismo and criminality in a supposedly ‘ideological’ direction and getting kicks from making shocking statements.

Criminals have always been attracted to extremist movements, because they appeal to their anti-social attitutes. The BNP is no exception.

Full article:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

re: #25 Fenway_Nation

No, they just fold when they're ahead. Makes no sense to me.

re: #29 iceweasel

re: #30 iceweasel

Oh yay! Does this mean we can sit with the cool kids at the lunch table now?

re: #16 checked08

Anyone hear about "The Family", that odd religious outfit that councils adulterous Republican politicians? Seems they've been pushing their bigotry in Uganda.

Link to the text of the bill
Caught a cold, took the day off from work. No stupid jokes to post tonight. Good night

Rick Warren is refusing to oppose it.

Rick Warren refuses to oppose Uganda’s “Kill Gays” bill

Warren has now found the one exception to his political involvement. And that exception is the proposed Ugandan “Kill Gays” bill. Unlike virtually anything else that flickers across his attention, this piece of legislation just doesn’t rise to the level of requiring his involvement. That would be “interfering in the political process of other nations.”

Or maybe Rick Warren just doesn’t find it unethical on the part of leadership in Uganda to execute HIV positive gay people, incarcerate the rest for life, ban any form of activism that might object, and jail those family, friends, or acquaintances who fail to report their gay loved ones to the government.

On Meet the Press this morning he spoke a good game of loving gay people (while fighting against their rights). But though he declared that his “role is to love everybody” (which presumably would include gay Ugandans), this love seems not to stretch quite enough to oppose their execution and life-long incarceration.

re: #33 Fenway_Nation

re: #30 iceweasel

Oh yay! Does this mean we can sit with the cool kids at the lunch table now?

It means LGF's traffic will go up.
Which means the page impressions go up.
Which means that Charles' advertising rates can go up too, if he wants to raise them.
It also means more people reading LGF, and probably linking LGF and sending even more traffic.

Got a problem with any of that?

re: #26 iceweasel

What'd I say downstairs?

That post is already top story on memeorandum. Wheee!

What is the significance of this "memeorandum" of which you speak?

re: #35 iceweasel

Depends on where that traffic is coming from. If more Koslings and thinkprogress types come here and decide to make themselves at home, then Charles might as well delete my account.

re: #37 Fenway_Nation

Why?

re: #37 Fenway_Nation

Remain calm grasshopper. Opposing views are part of the game.

re: #36 Bagua

What is the significance of this "memeorandum" of which you speak?

It's a snapshot of the blogosphere, ranked according to the most talked about stories and provides links to where they are being discussed. Very nifty site for seeing what is going on.

re: #40 Jimmah

Do they have a partisan bias? How big is their following?

re: #37 Fenway_Nation

Depends on where that traffic is coming from. If more Koslings and thinkprogress types come here and decide to make themselves at home, then Charles might as well delete my account.

What an odd statement.

re: #41 Bagua

Do they have a partisan bias? How big is their following?

No partisan bias or indeed comment- the list is generated purely by activity in the blogosphere.

re: #41 Bagua

Do they have a partisan bias? How big is their following?

No, they're a snapshot of the political web. What's being talked about and by who, and how much. Insanely useful for anyone who is a political blogger-- I check it several times a day. It'll rank all the stories being talked about and link everyone talking about them. I use it precisely because it isnt partisan and I get exposed to so many blogs and opposing viewpoints-- For example, say something like the Fort Hood shootings, you can pull up the NYT and WaPo coverage, but also a selection of liberal blogs, rightwing blogs, centrist blogs-- and it will link the tiny blogs you've never heard of as well as the big ones like here.

Essential for any politics junkie, and especially for any blogger-- best way to get a broad spectrum of opinion and exposure to many, many blogs (and news sources).

re: #28 Walter L. Newton

So, let's not take note of Jefferson's political philosophy, nor should we try to put it in effect, nor should we glean anything from it. Why waste our time, since it's only an ideal, not worth our time.

So Ralphie, what's the alternative?

We should most certainly take note of Jefferson's ideal and try to apply it to the greatest possible extent, but at the same time just have a better idea of what constitutes "to govern least".

And not try, as Grover Norquist quipped, to "reduce the government to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub"

If we want an example of that, just look at Iraq or Afghanistan, those governments would drown in a teacup without US military support.

Government is there to administer those tasks that cannot be left to the free market: justice, regulating commerce, education, defense, and managing natural resources.

That is, unfortunately no small task and even the smallest possible government is going to be larger than many people would like.

And in my opinion, the health of a nation's workforce is a natural resource, and I have no problem with the government plaing a role in managing its care.

re: #43 Jimmah

Interesting, sort of a look into the collective consciousness of the nascent blogosphere.

I shall check it out.

re: #38 freetoken

Went through this with Conservative Moonbat awhile back. If he...(and then ultimately, the majority of the posters here) would see nothing wrong with Markos' 'Screw Them' screed regarding the contractors who were murdered, torched, mutilated and hung from a bridge in Fallujah...if they would try and rationalize it and make excuces for it, then there's no point in further discussion. And there's no point in me sticking around as the token conservative or 'court jester'.

Don't get me wrong- I appreciate Kos' honesty on the subject, but I want nothing to do with either him or people who think to this day that he was 100% in the right.

re: #47 Fenway_Nation

Bit too dramatic, you are hardly the 'token conservative' (though I may well fit as the 'court jester')

Rejection of the worst of the Right does not imply embrace of the worst of the Left.

re: #46 Bagua

Interesting, sort of a look into the collective consciousness of the nascent blogosphere.

I shall check it out.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. I usually just pick the topics I'm interested in, (there are too many on any given day, or at any given moment to keep up on all) and then a selection of maybe 5 or 6 articles/posts on them from across the spectrum. Great way to get into the political blogosphere as a whole. Highly recommend. Charles links them on the sidebar.

re: #48 Bagua

Bit too dramatic, you are hardly the 'token conservative' (though I may well fit as the 'court jester')

Rejection of the worst of the Right does not imply embrace of the worst of the Left.

Similarly, you can't assume that every poster or diarist on dKos endorses that comment of kos's. Not by a long shot.

re: #49 iceweasel

Great, just what I needed, another fascinating website... another reason why I shall get no work done at all while this pesky internet lives on.

Have you no thought of my need to earn bread?

re: #51 Bagua

Great, just what I needed, another fascinating website... another reason why I shall get no work done at all while this pesky internet lives on.

Have you no thought of my need to earn bread?

Start making it yourself! jimmah and I just started making our own. :)
bye for now-- have a good day, friendly neighbourhood Bagua!

re: #39 Bagua

Remain calm grasshopper. Opposing views are part of the game.

Really... I've been reading up a lot on CRU versus the FOIA requests that they have received over the last 5-6 years, and they don't seem to think so.

I'm also looking over the HadCRUT3 dataset. I can see why some people are concerned about the validity of this data. This data is temperature readings, since 1850, in 5 degree by 5 degree grids across most of the planet. But, with in each of those grids, the source of the actual reading (ie: a meteorological station, a individual etc) has/had changed over the years. So, there appears to be no way to validate the actual physical source of the data with in that 5 degree by 5 degree grid. That's a lot of area in a grid, and temperature can fluctuate inside that grid, depending on the actual pinpoint location and the collection method. CRU says they have no way to reference those actual locations in the grid.

I find that to be possibly a problem.

I have the dataset. My intentions, after studying the dataset and gathering as much info as I can, I am thinking of trying to develop my own program code that would query the data in the same way CRU has queried the data and developed their subsets of the data.

But to do that, I am going to have to beef up on exactly what CRU has been doing with this data, what they have been pulling from this data, and any caveats I need to know.

In the least, I will have a good understanding of CRU's side of the story and what this data means to them.

Up to this point, a lot of the science, at least reading about it, has been beyond me. But when you start talking hard data, programs and analyzing datasets, well, that's what I have been doing for 25 years,

Now this gets interesting.

re: #50 iceweasel

Similarly, you can't assume that every poster or diarist on dKos endorses that comment of kos's. Not by a long shot.

I've seen Instapundit defend Markos once. I won't defend Markos for some of those comments but it's important to remember that he's still a kid. 7 years ago he was just beyond 31 years old and I remember when

Fenway...is there any way to contact you off the blog? I'm thinking of making a move to New England for school/life, and I trust you more than most anyone else here in assisting me with a move like that.

re: #54 Gus 802

Oops. Half post. I was just going to say that Markos was immature and blah blah blah.

Night folks :)

re: #52 iceweasel

Start making it yourself! jimmah and I just started making our own. :)
bye for now-- have a good day, friendly neighbourhood Bagua!

I may well be reduced to baking my own bread should I not find enough hours in the week to fleece the sheep as I do.

voyez-vous plus tard

re: #48 Bagua

Rejection of the worst of the Right does not imply embrace of the worst of the Left.

But who ultimately gets to define that? Is it static, or is there some sort of sliding scale? I mean...back in 2007, the word narccisist meant...well...narccisist. Now, tonight, thanks to the resident progressives, we learn that it's really a 'code-word' for uppity. And the progressives have been doing this to death with words like 'Patriotic' and 'wealthy'.

Where's the diversity in thought and opinion if people like that get to continually decide what is and sin't acceptable?

re: #47 Fenway_Nation

re: #48 Bagua

Agree with both of you. I'm not interested in yet another ideological echo chamber, which is what most of the blogosphere has become and one of the reasons I'm comfortable here. And I've never thought of this blog as being either right or left. Nor do I take Charles' post downstairs to be an embrace of one side over the other.

It's the rejection of mindless groupthink (apparently much desired by some here) that makes this blog enjoyable. I doubt that will change.

Breaking News: CRU just found the lost data!

Sorry guys, only kidding...

re: #59 Fenway_Nation

But who ultimately gets to define that? Is it static, or is there some sort of sliding scale? I mean...back in 2007, the word narccisist meant...well...narccisist. Now, tonight, thanks to the resident progressives, we learn that it's really a 'code-word' for uppity. And the progressives have been doing this to death with words like 'Patriotic' and 'wealthy'.

Where's the diversity in thought and opinion if people like that get to continually decide what is and sin't acceptable?

See my note downstairs on this topic. "Dogwhistle" is the new "fascist".

re: #59 Fenway_Nation

I think you're just emotionally hot tonight. I would vote for Micky Mouse over Obama, but I agree with the 'uppity' observation. It's a valid observation.

And we both know that nobody decides for anybody else on this forum.

re: #55 TheMatrix31

Heh...most of New England is bluer than California and even colder to boot, so you'd bascially be out of the frying pan and into the fire in terms of being surrounded by liberals.

Same disclosure applies to the institutes of higher learning- I guess it all depends on what you want to study and earn your degree in. That said, Boston itself if a very offbeat and interesting (AND expensive) place to visit, study and work. I'm biased, but Fenway Park is a must-see on any sports fans' 'to-do' list...

You can get ahold of me via my still-waiting-for-me-to-sugarcoat-tonights-turd -in-the-punchbowl-that-was -New England's-performance blog. Click on my name as it is of the azure persuasion.

re: #61 son of a son

Breaking News: CRU just found the lost data!

Sorry guys, only kidding...

No data is missing, what is missing, or at least what CRU says they cannot reproduce is the actual physical location of the reporting entity with in the 5 degree by 5 degree grid of the planet.

See my re: #53 Walter L. Newton

re: #64 Fenway_Nation

Cool, maybe I'll shoot ya a post over there. I don't mind the cold--thats one of the reasons why I want to leave here, because 80 degrees on November 30 is unacceptable.

re: #60 SixDegrees

Too bad that one troll had such a kick-ass screen name- speaktruthtogroupthink was it?

re: #50 iceweasel

If Charles said something like that he would never see me again, from that moment forward.

re: #67 Fenway_Nation

Too bad that one troll had such a kick-ass screen name- speaktruthtogroupthink was it?

I must have missed that one. I noticed a number of deletions.

re: #66 TheMatrix31

Cool, maybe I'll shoot ya a post over there. I don't mind the cold--thats one of the reasons why I want to leave here, because 80 degrees on November 30 is unacceptable.

Keep in mind I wasn't born and raised in Boston. My perspective is from a kid who grew up in the hilltowns in the western part of the state and Boston was teH Big Citah where we'd go every now and then to catch a Sox game, go to some museums, see some tall ships or some kind of grade-school field trip.

re: #70 Fenway_Nation

Even better, haha.

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

Really... I've been reading up a lot on CRU versus the FOIA requests that they have received over the last 5-6 years, and they don't seem to think so.

[...]

Yep, the undeniable fact on the face of it. CRU has scored an own goal that will be difficult to recover from.

The basic physics of what is observable and demonstrable remain, such as the properties of CO2 in a closed system, etc. But the necessary data to call an emergency appears to have flown the coup.

If nothing else, the IPCC AR4 will need scrapping as will a host of papers that have sourced the CRU work, or at minimum will have to be placed in limbo while the work is verified.

re: #71 TheMatrix31

Similarly- depending on how flexible you might be, you could always try smaller state universities like New Hampshire or Maine. It would put you further away from The Hub of Hockey and Every Other Sport, but the cost of living and tuition would probably be lower.

/NH is probably New England's 'reddest' state as it stands

re: #73 Fenway_Nation

I just want out of California once I go to grad school. You know, for business. Then I'll get to fork over most of the money I earn to the government to pay for the insane debt being created! Yay.

re: #62 SixDegrees

Noted.

I think I already updinged you downstairs on that one.

re: #75 Fenway_Nation

Downstairs? What is that, code word for AUSTRALIANS?!

/

re: #72 Bagua

Yep, the undeniable fact on the face of it. CRU has scored an own goal that will be difficult to recover from.

The basic physics of what is observable and demonstrable remain, such as the properties of CO2 in a closed system, etc. But the necessary data to call an emergency appears to have flown the coup.

If nothing else, the IPCC AR4 will need scrapping as will a host of papers that have sourced the CRU work, or at minimum will have to be placed in limbo while the work is verified.

And I have been reading the document file from a CRU programmer named "Harry," and this file contains notes of his work trying to recreate results from different CRU data.

I am a programmer, I can understand another's programmers notes on what he's working on.

It seems that CRU's whole data management, change control, version control and programing methods is a mishmash of techniques and processes, with no standards.

That's why scientist should not be trying to data the work of programmers and information technology regimens. When I worked at the National Renewable Energy Lab, that was part of my job, to help the scientist follow standards on how data is collected, stored, controlled, verified etc. All that stuff that it is evident that CRU was NOT DOING.

This is not a pro or anti AGW stance on my part, I am only talking about data collection and data analysts methods, and so far I see a big problem on how it has been handled at CRU.

re: #74 TheMatrix31

Go to trade school and get a Union job so that way you can join the Teamsters or Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers or Transportation Communication Workers so that not only will a bit of your monthly paycheck go towards re-electing dem politicians or lining the pockets of mobsters, but your union president can accomodate none other than Kos himself for a punch of photo-ops where the shitty little ratfuck can pretend he's a real hard workin' truck drivin' blue collar American hero!

re: #78 Fenway_Nation

YAY! All-American DREAM!

re: #76 TheMatrix31

Downstairs? What is that, code word for AUSTRALIANS?!

/

Damn koalabacks.

re: #80 Fenway_Nation

Koalas?! I hope that's not code for being uppity, since those animals HAPPEN to perch themselves high UP in trees and swing around!

Tsk tsk tsk

///holy crap, Wiki says that female Koalas have two vaginas.

May be the guys from Timesonline don´t get it right? Who knows. But have look on your own: [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

re: #77 Walter L. Newton

[...]

This is not a pro or anti AGW stance on my part, I am only talking about data collection and data analysts methods, and so far I see a big problem on how it has been handled at CRU.

I don't think the pro or anti is even relevant. Beliefs and opinions are secondary to cold science which is based upon data and accuracy. The relevant question is quite clear, is the information that has emanated from the CRU Hockey Team valid? Can it be verified? If not, it is not even wrong, it is useless.

It is too early to have a firm opinion either way, but if appearances prove accurate then it appears that the CRU Hockey Team are wearing Green Helmets.

re: #81 TheMatrix31

Koalas?! I hope that's not code for being uppity, since those animals HAPPEN to perch themselves high UP in trees and swing around!

Tsk tsk tsk

///holy crap, Wiki says that female Koalas have two vaginas.

So, it's more like a koalawhistle?

Two? Now, that's something to think about...

Let's see...in another window I was alternating between photos of Bettie Paige and some restored steam locotives.

But wait...what do those things have in common? Their heyday was in the 1950s. You know what else was around in the 1950s? Jim Crow!

So by looking at nostalgic stuff like Lima-Hamilton steam engines and a raven-haired pin-up from that deacade, I'm clearly nostalgic for the days of Jim Crow and segregated lunch counters!

//

Too convoluted? Too bad!

re: #82 son of a son

May be the guys from Timesonline don´t get it right? Who knows. But have look on your own: [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Who are you talking to or replying to? Why don't you use the quote/reply buttons, otherwise you are talking to yourself. It makes it much easier for us to understand what you are replying to, who you are replying to and how or who needs to respond to you.

Otherwise you will just be ignored.

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

He appears to be trolling, not replying.

re: #85 Fenway_Nation

Thought you said Linda Hamilton.

re: #81 TheMatrix31

Wiki says lots of things.

Steve: Now the world will never know the truth.
Stan: If only there was a place where you could make any outrageous claim you want with absolutely no proof, and millions of people would accept it as fact.
Steve: That's it!
[cutaway to Steve writing a Wikipedia article on "The Truth About Peanut Butter"]

-American Dad, Black Mystery Month

re: #88 TheMatrix31

She'd kick my ass...

But hey- speaking of those damn koalabacks, be sure to check out my blog.

re: #77 Walter L. Newton

I come from a similar background - software engineering - and this has been my criticism, as well. It's also quite unusual for researchers to treat their data in such a cavalier fashion. Not completely unheard of, but not all that common.

The problem is the questions this raises about reproducibility. It isn't clear to me whether the CRU results can be reliably reproduced, either by independent researchers or by the CRU researchers themselves. That leaves their results in an unpleasant limbo: they're probably correct, but there may be no way to verify them.

And as we're seeing, such carelessness has consequences. Given the politically charged nature of this field, it's hard to understand why more care wasn't taken to preserve all data, or to be more forthcoming about potential problems from the beginning.

EVENING FACSITS!

/ :O

re: #90 Fenway_Nation

Yum.

re: #90 Fenway_Nation

She'd kick my ass...

But hey- speaking of those damn koalabacks, be sure to check out my blog.

What've you got against Australian immigrants?

/ q;

re: #90 Fenway_Nation

She'd kick my ass...

But hey- speaking of those damn koalabacks, be sure to check out my blog.

Uh...what? My cerebrum just shut down; it isn't needed at the moment...

re: #83 Bagua

I don't think the pro or anti is even relevant. Beliefs and opinions are secondary to cold science which is based upon data and accuracy. The relevant question is quite clear, is the information that has emanated from the CRU Hockey Team valid? Can it be verified? If not, it is not even wrong, it is useless.

It is too early to have a firm opinion either way, but if appearances prove accurate then it appears that the CRU Hockey Team are wearing Green Helmets.

I don't understand your sports references. But you are right in general about cold science, and in reference to what I am looking at, hard data. If I understand how they compiled the hadcrut3 dataset, then their method of collecting that data is bogus.

For any given grid on the planet, you can have had multiple locations with in that grid supplying temperature data to that grid since 1850, month after month, and CRU cannot tell anyone (or refuse to tell anyone) the actual physical location of each one of those temperature readings in that grid since 1850. There are also months where there is no temperature data for that grid. And on top of all that, for any given grid, CRU claims that the source of the data could have come from three agencies, and then, there is a total of 2 percent over all data reading totally missing from the dataset.

That is not a valid dataset to begin with. It doesn't amtter what programs they have developed to query the data, it doesn't matter what results they THINK they have gotten from that dataset. It appear to me that the raw dataset itself is flawed to begin with.

Like I say, I am going through the dataset and all the information available about it creation, history, caveats etc. There's a good amount of study to be done here, but fist look, doesn't look good.

re: #93 TheMatrix31

re: #94 laZardo

I wouldn't kick them out of my bed for eating eucalyptis leaves.

Kinda funny story- I got a parking ticket a few years back and I was going on and on about that dirty rotten so-and-so meter maid in front of an Aussie classmate.

The first thing he asked me was 'Oy-Was she wearing a bikini?'. We all looked at him like 'What the fuck kind of stupid question was that?' blissfully unaware of the Surfers Paradise gimmick tradition of 'Meter Maids'...and how the soulless and no doubt bitter and lonely spinsters responsible for parking enforcement down there are actually called something like 'traffic wardens'.

re: #97 Fenway_Nation

Well, you know what warden is a code word for...RIGHT?

/

re: #98 TheMatrix31

I lost track...is there like a boolean chart for this shit somewhere?

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

You are right; sorry about that.

re: #98 TheMatrix31

Well, you know what warden is a code word for...RIGHT?

/

It's a code word for the best damn cartoon to have its way with my TV's RGB emitters in years and then leave it sniveling in bed while it smokes a drag.

re: #100 Fenway_Nation

Maybe there should be a flow chart somewhere.

re: #91 SixDegrees

[...] they're probably correct, but there may be no way to verify them.
[...]

Probably correct but unverifiable will relegate them to the dustbin of history. Science is science, not politics.

If the data selection and adjustments have not been fully documented, then it is not even wrong, it cannot be falsified. End of game. Anything that is based upon that data will be equally worthless.

Should it be reconstructed with a similar result, it will still want discarding for the same reasons.

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

The sports reference is to Mann's famous Hockey Stick, under challenge they have countered that they have a whole Hockey Team. Now that team looks a bit dodgy. The Green Helmet reference is to the Kana media manipulation and fraud during the last Lebanon War. Should the "hockey team" turn out to be wearing Green Helmets, that means they engaged in media manipulation and propaganda to further their agenda.

Mind my caveat that it is too early to have a definitive opinion. I'm happy to give the CRU crew time to respond, release their data and have it subjected to proper scientific scrutiny. If it holds up, then it's much ado nothing.

But if I were to want to make a wager at this point, it wouldn't favour the Hockey Team.

re: #95 SixDegrees

What I actually haven't been able to find on the internet is the actual fortran source code that some people have been talking about. A lot of people on different blogs are showing snippets of some code, but I can't find an archive of ALL the source code of the CRU programs.

Those programs were part of the hacked documents, along with the emails and other documents.

I would love to see the actual source code, since I know fortran (yea, I've been programming since we had those wooden frame things with the little beads on it) and I would like to audit the code.

It would seem to me that if you had the code, a compiler and the datasets that the code uses, you should be able to run the models the same way CRU has been.

From what I gather, one part of the controversy is that CRU has refused to release code and certain data to other scientist so they could try to replicate the results.

Why was my 99 deleted?

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

Was there something quoted that shouldn't have been?

re: #107 Fenway_Nation

Was there something quoted that shouldn't have been?

I have only been quoting Bagua and Six Degrees.

re: #104 Bagua

According to timesonline CRU scientist admitted "throwing away much of the raw temperature data": [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

I have only been quoting Bagua and Six Degrees.

Was there a link to the stolen data? I believe the position is not to link to it because of its provenance.

re: #104 Bagua

[snip]

Mind my caveat that it is too early to have a definitive opinion. I'm happy to give the CRU crew time to respond, release their data and have it subjected to proper scientific scrutiny. If it holds up, then it's much ado nothing.

But if I were to want to make a wager at this point, it wouldn't favour the Hockey Team.

And that's why I have been saying I have a lot more study to do on this data. But if CRU was a client of mine who had hired me to validate their data collection methods and the validity of the data, my "first look" initial reaction to it would be "you may have some problems."

re: #110 Bagua

Was there a link to the stolen data? I believe the position is not to link to it because of its provenance.

Yes there was, that was probably what happened. I didn't know there was a problem with that. That's ok with me, I can discuss it without linking to any of the hacked data. And only a fool couldn't find it if they wanted it.

re: #109 son of a son

I believe you linked to that already upthread. Personally I'm not all that keen on anything some media hack has to say. Right now they are just chasing a hot story and trying to zero in on simplistic memes as they always do.

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Walter, if you want meteorological data then go to the actual repository:
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]

re: #113 Bagua

I believe you linked to that already upthread. Personally I'm not all that keen on anything some media hack has to say. Right now they are just chasing a hot story and trying to zero in on simplistic memes as they always do.

Well, there's not doubt that a lot of media and pundits have run with the simple sensationalistic side of this story. But at the same time, it was those stories that got me interested in finding out more about the data itself, which I find much more sensational than anything in those simplistic memes.

And the bottom line is, if a grunt programmer like myself can understand this data, it's going to really be interesting when the professionals who have the time, resources and clout start reporting on all the finer details of all this.

re: #114 freetoken

Walter, if you want meteorological data then go to the actual repository:
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]

I have the real data. And there is not just ONE source that was used to compile hadcrut3. Data was combined from NCAR, GHCN, NMS, NOAA and some misc sources.

re: #115 Walter L. Newton

The MSM has its value, and they are good at highlighting an issue. But so often they fail to truly understand and fairly represent what they are writing about.

Assuming everything is Kosher - and those at CRU deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point - then there will be no problem verifying the data and the results. It will just take a bit of time and correct procedures. Should have been done long ago.

And the raw data is only part of the picture, it is how that data was adjusted and used. Presumably they did not discard those notes as well? If not, then it should prove no problem to verify everything.

re: #117 Bagua

The MSM has its value, and they are good at highlighting an issue. But so often they fail to truly understand and fairly represent what they are writing about.

Assuming everything is Kosher - and those at CRU deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point - then there will be no problem verifying the data and the results. It will just take a bit of time and correct procedures. Should have been done long ago.

And the raw data is only part of the picture, it is how that data was adjusted and used. Presumably they did not discard those notes as well? If not, then it should prove no problem to verify everything.

Who is going to hold their feet to the fire? I really ask that with no idea of the answer. It appears that there has actually been peer reviewed scientist that have been locked out of the process, at least as far as CRU is concerned, so, how tight does CRU hold the lid on other valid research?

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

It appears that there has actually been peer reviewed scientist that have been locked out of the process, at least as far as CRU is concerned, so, how tight does CRU hold the lid on other valid research?

Who would that be? And what process are they "locked out" of?

The science is blinding.

re: #5 cliffster

Cures for HIV: zero
Lifespan of person diagnosed with HIV: ??

People think we've fixed HIV, and people with HIV will live a good long life just like the rest of us. Truth is, no one knows how long one will live. The "treatments" have not been around long enough to say. And a lot of "treatments" wreck havoc on a person's day-to-day life in ways most people have no idea.

I knew a guy diagnosed with AIDS when it was still called GRID. And he lived to his mid-50s, died a couple years ago. Lived what I'd consider a pretty healthy life, with some compromises because of the meds, but the treatments didn't ruin him. He was very positive right up until the end.

re: #97 Fenway_Nation

They're also called traffic wardens in Great Britain. All us good Top Gear fans know that. 8-)

There's a blue moon this month.

re: #119 freetoken

Who would that be? And what process are they "locked out" of?

Well, since the last comment on this thread that I linked to a document from the hacked set of documents and emails was deleted, I suspect that Charles would prefer that I don't link to any of those sources, which I will of course honor.

So, for an answer, you will have to research the CRU emails yourself, I guess, because that is where my answer is.

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

Now you're confusing me. You claimed that a "peer reviewed scientist" was "locked" out of a process. Certainly I don't expect you to link to something that is non-grata here... but still... just a name and a description of the "process"?

re: #122 WindUpBird

They're also called traffic wardens in Great Britain. All us good Top Gear fans know that. 8-)

/reminds himself to get Episode 3 of the new season

Someone tried to post their phone number again...

re: #126 freetoken

Now you're confusing me. You claimed that a "peer reviewed scientist" was "locked" out of a process. Certainly I don't expect you to link to something that is non-grata here... but still... just a name and a description of the "process"?

Sorry, not going to take the bait. Like I said above, it appears that Charles considers the hacked items from CRU "non-grata" as you call it, and I'm fine with that. There is not way I can describe what I am talking about, it's all in an email from a CRU scientist in regards to peer-reviewed information. If you want to know exactly what I am talking about, I guess you'll have to find it yourself.

What else can I do.

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

867-5309...damn you Tommy Two Tone!

Stewie- Family Guy

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

There was also a link provided last night - not sure if you posted it, Walter - to a site detailing on person's attempts to obtain information about the datasets used by CRU from various people at CRU, from the director to the individual researchers. Reading through the emails, it does appear that CRU was less than forthcoming not only about releasing data it had under it's control, but about releasing information that would have allowed their dataset to be reconstructed from the external sources it was drawn from.

It's downstairs somewhere.

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Who is going to hold their feet to the fire? I really ask that with no idea of the answer. It appears that there has actually been peer reviewed scientist that have been locked out of the process, at least as far as CRU is concerned, so, how tight does CRU hold the lid on other valid research?

At this point another peer review of the CRU papers will mean exactly nothing to me. I don't like what I've seen about the peer reveiw process applied to Climate Science and it has inherent limitations I find unacceptable for such critical work.

I require their temperature constructions to be independently repeated in an open and verifiable manner, adhering to proper scientific procedures. Until they everything to do with "combating climate change" should be placed on hold except for research.

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Someone tried to post their phone number again...

Did you lose it? Don't!

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

I can't wait until someone I know and respect does all the hard work and tells me what to think of all this...

re: #131 SixDegrees

There was also a link provided last night - not sure if you posted it, Walter - to a site detailing on person's attempts to obtain information about the datasets used by CRU from various people at CRU, from the director to the individual researchers. Reading through the emails, it does appear that CRU was less than forthcoming not only about releasing data it had under it's control, but about releasing information that would have allowed their dataset to be reconstructed from the external sources it was drawn from.

It's downstairs somewhere.

Yep, that's what appears to have been happening. I know the link. Everything that we have been discussing is available to anyone who does a few simple google searches.

re: #132 Bagua

Until they then everything to do with "combating climate change" should be placed on hold except for research.

re: #133 laZardo

Ricky?!

re: #134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I can't wait until someone I know and respect does all the hard work and tells me what to think of all this...

Always the spectator... :)

re: #136 Bagua

I knew what you were saying.

They got the cop killer in WA. Can't find a story yet tho, just headlines

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

I never promised you a rose garden...

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Always the spectator... :)

It explains why we are thin and FBV is so well fed.

re: #132 Bagua

At this point another peer review of the CRU papers will mean exactly nothing to me. I don't like what I've seen about the peer reveiw process applied to Climate Science and it has inherent limitations I find unacceptable for such critical work.

I require their temperature constructions to be independently repeated in an open and verifiable manner, adhering to proper scientific procedures. Until they everything to do with "combating climate change" should be placed on hold except for research.

Interesting enough, there are a lot of people out there who think this is all a tempest in a teapot and there is nothing wrong with the way CRU has handled the whole issue of their data, even in light of all the recent evidence, of in the least, some sloppy procedures, methods and controls.

There's two sides to every story, unless there is only one side, huh?

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I never promised you a rose garden...

The actual historical quote that Dr. Frieda Fromm-Reichman said to her patient (Joanne Greenberg) was "I never promised you a garden of roses."

The original title of the book, the title that Joanne wanted on her semi-fictional story was "A Little Maybe." It was her editor that suggested the title "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden." Really.

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ricky?!

If he posted his number in English...

re: #140 RogueOne

They got the cop killer in WA. Can't find a story yet tho, just headlines

My radio said they got him as well. Just now. (Fox Radio) BRB.

Seattle police are reporting that they shot and killed the Tacoma cop killer last night.

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio said they got him as well. Just now. (Fox Radio) BRB.

You can't trust Fox :)

re: #140 RogueOne

They got the cop killer in WA. Can't find a story yet tho, just headlines

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio said they got him as well. Just now. (Fox Radio) BRB.

Same here. Local radio first, there's a "breaking news" tag on foxnews but no story.

bbl

as mentioned by Rogue One- post #140- sorry R1- didn't see your post

re: #147 Capitalist Tool

Seattle police are reporting that they shot and killed the Tacoma cop killer last night.

Good...now nobody can grant him clemency.

/spit

re: #152 Fenway_Nation

Good...now nobody can grant him clemency.

/spit

ain't that the truth

bbiam

re: #152 Fenway_Nation

re: #153 Capitalist Tool

Does that make Huckabee the new Dukakis?

/don't care what party you are, YOU DON'T FUCKING PARDON HARDENED CRIMINALS.

re: #155 laZardo

Yep. Huckabee is the new Dukakis.
Wake up Fox!

re: #132 Bagua

At this point another peer review of the CRU papers will mean exactly nothing to me. I don't like what I've seen about the peer reveiw process applied to Climate Science and it has inherent limitations I find unacceptable for such critical work.

I require their temperature constructions to be independently repeated in an open and verifiable manner, adhering to proper scientific procedures. Until they everything to do with "combating climate change" should be placed on hold except for research.

Peer review has it's limitations, but doesn't seem to have broken in this case. First, when a paper is submitted for publication it is reviewed for basic adherence to established scientific principles, based on the procedures presented in the paper. The actual data is assumed to have been collected or obtained as stated, and no investigation is done on this point; it's taken as a given. Once accepted, the paper is published for a wide audience of peers within the field. It's at this stage that someone may decide to attempt to replicate the research, although that's fairly rare unless what's reported falls well outside expectations.

Still, it happens. What Walter is currently doing is peer reviewing the data from within his own area of expertise. So the peer review process appears to be working just fine.

The problem at this point seems to be the inability to accurately reconstruct the original data that was used to derive the filtered data that CRU obtained it's published results from. This points to a problem with reproducibility - a hallmark of scientific process. It isn't clear at this point whether the original raw dataset can be reproduced by independent researchers, or even by CRU itself. This is a real problem, and it apparently will require CRU's help to resolve.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with the peer review process itself.

No one gave a Dukakis about Huckabee anyway.

re: #156 Capitalist Tool

Yep. Huckabee is the new Dukakis.
Wake up Fox!

Every Governor should have to listen to a quality storyteller tell the story of the 'Frog and the Scorpion" before each and every clemency hearing.

re: #155 laZardo

How racist of you to point that out.

/Dukakis '88 Campaign

re: #160 Fenway_Nation

Is the new bad guy black or white?

re: #147 Capitalist Tool

Seattle police are reporting that they shot and killed the Tacoma cop killer last night.

Good to hear. I was beginning to worry; the length of time since the original shooting made it possible for him to be pretty much anywhere in the country, or even out of it, by now.

re: #157 SixDegrees

Peer review has it's limitations, but doesn't seem to have broken in this case. First, when a paper is submitted for publication it is reviewed for basic adherence to established scientific principles, based on the procedures presented in the paper. The actual data is assumed to have been collected or obtained as stated, and no investigation is done on this point; it's taken as a given. Once accepted, the paper is published for a wide audience of peers within the field. It's at this stage that someone may decide to attempt to replicate the research, although that's fairly rare unless what's reported falls well outside expectations.

Still, it happens. What Walter is currently doing is peer reviewing the data from within his own area of expertise. So the peer review process appears to be working just fine.

The problem at this point seems to be the inability to accurately reconstruct the original data that was used to derive the filtered data that CRU obtained it's published results from. This points to a problem with reproducibility - a hallmark of scientific process. It isn't clear at this point whether the original raw dataset can be reproduced by independent researchers, or even by CRU itself. This is a real problem, and it apparently will require CRU's help to resolve.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with the peer review process itself.

The only thing I can say to you on this, click on my name, go to my website and find my email and email me and we can take this issue off LGF. I think you would be very surprised on some things I could show you. There may be an issue with how CRU has handled peer-review and I can let you make your own decision on that.

If you have some throw-a-way email address you use, that would work, like gmail or something.

That's up to you.

re: #161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. Black guy.

What is going on in this world? People's thinking caps seem to be melting.

re: #161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The new bad guy- Maurice Clemmons- is black, too.

From FNC's website...

Maurice Clemmons, suspected of gunning down four cops in a Washington coffee shop, reportedly thought he was Jesus Christ and told authorities, 'I'll kill all you bitches.'

Isn't that in Second Corinthians?

re: #164 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. Black guy.

What is going on in this world? People's thinking caps seem to be melting.

MELTIIING! OH, WHAT A _{WORLD WHAT A WORLD...}

/hey, you can double the subscript tags. :D

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LMFAO.

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nah, that's in the Book of Armaments, in the O.G. Translation.

re: #169 laZardo

Right before where they explain the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, or after?

Flounce downstairs citing #4.

re: #164 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. Black guy.

What is going on in this world? People's thinking caps seem to be melting.

It's Brain Warming, I tell ya!

re: #170 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I heard one of the cops he murdered got a few shots off and might've hit Clemmons as he fled.

I'm hoping Clemmons' last few days were very painful...

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From FNC's website...

Isn't that in Second Corinthians?

2nd Opinions.

Not everyone has a copy of the Gospel of 2nd Opinions - it's about 3000 pages long and weighs 50 pounds. But you can find ANYTHING in there!

re: #170 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Probably after, whence they explained the details of Jesus' rampage through the 'den of hookers' that set up in his 'daddy's crib.'

re: #175 laZardo

Probably after, whence they explained the details of Jesus' rampage through the 'den of hookers' that set up in his 'daddy's crib.'

A group of hookers is called a "den"?

Shows what I know. I always called a group of hookers "expensive".

Charles never opened the door last night?

re: #177 Cannadian Club Akbar

After the previous thread, I could understand completely.

Brb dinnar.

re: #177 Cannadian Club Akbar

Charles never opened the door last night?

Stinky had a migraine, couldn't report for duty.

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. I'll consider your offer, but at this point my concern is with whether or not the original raw data that HadCRUT3 was constructed from can ever be reassembled. Or, to be more succinct, if HadCRUT3 can be replicated from it's original sources. This sort of examination of original raw data is commonplace, but my hopes that such examination will be possible are fading. It sounds as though CRU itself is unable to undertake such a reconstruction.

I haven't seen any reason to reject CRU's conclusions so far, but if I were citing their research I'd feel compelled to put a little star next to the reference, leading to an explanation of the circumstances, i.e., probably valid, but cannot be reproduced.

re: #157 SixDegrees

Let me take a rain check on reply as even robots require rest. My issue with the peer review goes beyond any hanky panky. I assume the peer review to have been honest.

My question is more what did they review and how. If all they did was check the citations and verify that scientific conventions were followed then that is something, but a matter of alleged import to the health of the planet and the survival of humans needs a higher standard, that of independently repeating all of the calculations.

re: #181 SixDegrees

Thanks. I'll consider your offer, but at this point my concern is with whether or not the original raw data that HadCRUT3 was constructed from can ever be reassembled. Or, to be more succinct, if HadCRUT3 can be replicated from it's original sources. This sort of examination of original raw data is commonplace, but my hopes that such examination will be possible are fading. It sounds as though CRU itself is unable to undertake such a reconstruction.

I haven't seen any reason to reject CRU's conclusions so far, but if I were citing their research I'd feel compelled to put a little star next to the reference, leading to an explanation of the circumstances, i.e., probably valid, but cannot be reproduced.

My first look, I would say no. Hadcrut3 can't be reproduced unless CRU has something that everyone is now looking for, and that is the actual physical locations for each temperature reading with in each 5 degree by 5 degree gird, with the link to the source of that reading (IE: NCAR, GHCN, NMS, NOAA and some misc sources).

CRU says they can't connect the each data record to the actual physical location and the source anymore.

Why is that important, because hadcrut3 has been tweaked, modified and each data record is not necessarily the raw date record that it was in the beginning.

To currently reconstruct each raw reading, you need to know what was the source agency and the physical recording station with in the grid.

That is the issue.

They say they can't do that.

So, you have 52.2 mb of data (I have the file) with monthly temperature readings from 1850 onward and they cannot reproduce the relationship of temperature reading -> agency source -> physical recording station in the grid.

re: #182 Bagua

Let me take a rain check on reply as even robots require rest. My issue with the peer review goes beyond any hanky panky. I assume the peer review to have been honest.

My question is more what did they review and how. If all they did was check the citations and verify that scientific conventions were followed then that is something, but a matter of alleged import to the health of the planet and the survival of humans needs a higher standard, that of independently repeating all of the calculations.

I would imagine that such a review would be forthcoming. I hope it will include a review of data management practices; a simple set of archiving protocols would have prevented this whole mess.

Fox just flashed a story about a new iPhone app designed to help illegals across the border.

COOL!

/

re: #185 TheMatrix31

That app was soo~ last week.

re: #185 TheMatrix31

Fox just flashed a story about a new iPhone app designed to help illegals across the border.

COOL!

/

If they have an iPhone, they need to keep the job they already have.
/

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

To put things in perspective, a 5 degree square is an area (very) roughly the size of Nevada, Ecuador or Italy.

Is it known whether a single station is used for each cell over the entire timespan?

re: #187 Cannadian Club Akbar

Good thinking. I didn't even think of that.

///then again, to some, I'm not capable of thought anyway

re: #186 laZardo

That app was soo~ last week.

Um, I see a need for that in my future.:)

re: #188 SixDegrees

To put things in perspective, a 5 degree square is an area (very) roughly the size of Nevada, Ecuador or Italy.

Is it known whether a single station is used for each cell over the entire timespan?

No, that's the point. Since 1850, different physical locations depending on which agency they got the information from, and this changed over the years, and there are a lot of times they had not data and then there is about 2 percent data that they can't even account for.

And they can't tell you now which agency, which location for each entry.

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

No, that's the point. Since 1850, different physical locations depending on which agency they got the information from, and this changed over the years, and there are a lot of times they had not data and then there is about 2 percent data that they can't even account for.

And they can't tell you now which agency, which location for each entry.

So the entry used for each cell at each particular time is based on a single reading?

re: #192 SixDegrees

So the entry used for each cell at each particular time is based on a single reading?

Yes, a single reading from a single agency at a particular location. But over the years, they would substitute the agency and location if more than one was available, and the data better fit the model, and now, they can't tell you the agency and source for any particular data record.

That's what I am understanding from what I am reading. If I am wrong, someone correct me or help me out.

Is Financial Times a balanced source for news and information?

re: #193 Walter L. Newton

Yes, a single reading from a single agency at a particular location. But over the years, they would substitute the agency and location if more than one was available, and the data better fit the model, and now, they can't tell you the agency and source for any particular data record.

That's what I am understanding from what I am reading. If I am wrong, someone correct me or help me out.

Do they say anywhere why they didn't simply take an average of all readings within the grid, or perform some similar averaging? Or did that occur after initial data selection.

What you're telling me is causing me to have one of those "WTF?" moments.

GN guys, take it easy.

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

Is Financial Times a balanced source for news and information?

I've seen it compare to the WSJ.

re: #195 SixDegrees

Do they say anywhere why they didn't simply take an average of all readings within the grid, or perform some similar averaging? Or did that occur after initial data selection.

What you're telling me is causing me to have one of those "WTF?" moments.

They have massaged and played with the data even after initial data selection. And they have been tweaking the data as more information has become available, but they didn't keep every version of the dataset as it evolved.

I'm really only at a "high level" understanding of all this right now, there is a lot more information, I have a lot bookmarked, I'm going over it little by little.

That's sort of why I was up all night, I started to read some stuff and I have been flipping back and forth between reading and posting over here.

Everything I have been relating is available on the web.

re: #197 Cannadian Club Akbar

I've seen it compare to the WSJ.

Seems to be politically moderate. Known in Britain as left-leaning, they also publish a lot of Conservative columnists.

No idea on how accurate their actual reporting may be.

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Many thanks for taking on such a thankless task.

re: #199 SixDegrees

Seems to be politically moderate. Known in Britain as left-leaning, they also publish a lot of Conservative columnists.

No idea on how accurate their actual reporting may be.

If the University of East Anglia had been sharing more of its data and the computer models and statistical simulations running that data, the email hack would have been much ado about nothing.

re: #199 SixDegrees

Seems to be politically moderate. Known in Britain as left-leaning, they also publish a lot of Conservative columnists.

No idea on how accurate their actual reporting may be.

I think most here have a pretty good BS detector. Or we can just ask others here. Much knowledge available.

*my thousandth comment*

re: #203 wozzablog

*my thousandth comment*

*my thousanth cringe*
///

re: #199 SixDegrees

it's a great old marque.

It falls pretty much in the European centre ground editorially - occasional outspoken piece from a little bit of a limb either side of the spectrum.

The reporting is second to none - and i trust it a helluva lot more than the WSJ who's editorial shift to that of the respectable NY Post seems to have infected some of the most basic reporting.

re: #202 Cannadian Club Akbar

My little brother owns a novelty bullshit button.

/wonder if Charles could link to that on his Amazon page.

re: #204 Cannadian Club Akbar

*my thousanth cringe*
///

LOL

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

If the University of East Anglia had been sharing more of its data and the computer models and statistical simulations running that data, the email hack would have been much ado about nothing.

A very good editorial, and one that mirrors what I've said from the beginning of this controversy: appearances matter, and giving the appearance of being arrogant or iconoclastic or manipulative, even if completely inaccurate, can have a profound effect on how you are perceived and how your work is received. The contents of the CRU emails, for example, may be merely the informal banter of people just acting like humans, but the reaction upon reading them that they might indicate bias or sloppiness is every bit as human.

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

"Lakewood police shooting suspect shot dead by police in South Seattle early this morning"

A nice long dirt-nap for this killer.
Now to investigate those family mambers and friends of his that aided his eluding and supplied assistance.
Then, time to investigate how he was out on the streets amongst us.

re: #206 laZardo

My little brother owns a novelty bullshit button.

/wonder if Charles could link to that on his Amazon page.

All Amazon links from LGF to Amazon will automatically be credited to Charles is someone purchases the item.

See how the URL posts when you put it on LGF "www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000L70MQO/littlegreenfo-20"

The "littlegreenfo-20" identifies the source of the link as LGF.

re: #202 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think most here have a pretty good BS detector. Or we can just ask others here. Much knowledge available.

I don't see anything in the article Walter linked to that presents any problems. It's clearly labeled as opinion, and doesn't stray off into tinfoil hat territory.

Gonna hang out with my little bro at the nearby 7-11. Cheers.

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

All Amazon links from LGF to Amazon will automatically be credited to Charles is someone purchases the item.

See how the URL posts when you put it on LGF "www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000L70MQO/littl egreenfo-20"

The "littlegreenfo-20" identifies the source of the link as LGF.

I see whut they did thar. Greenheart'd for reference.

re: #213 laZardo

I see whut they did thar. Greenheart'd for reference.

What?

NPR just did a hatchet job on Pres. Bush using the excuse of BHO's self-aggrandizing speech at West Point tonight as a pretense.

Shine On You Crazy Diamond - Live

re: #215 MandyManners

NPR just did a hatchet job on Pres. Bush using the excuse of BHO's self-aggrandizing speech at West Point tonight as a pretense.

He better say the right things. Tonight is not the night to pander to the left.

re: #216 Timmeh

One of my favorite songs. I also love the "Animals" CD.

Good Morning Lizards!

How are you-all this morning?

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

I look forward to your analysis.

Dogs are rough-housing.

Something makes me think they will be asking to go outside in a few minutes.

Why do they do this in the morning when I'm still on my first cuppa?

re: #221 ggt

Dogs are rough-housing.

Something makes me think they will be asking to go outside in a few minutes.

Why do they do this in the morning when I'm still on my first cuppa?

Probably for the same reason my cats only try to kill each other as I'm trying to get ready to go to bed. Maximum human annoyance.

re: #220 Ericus58

I look forward to your analysis.

All I am doing is trying to confirm what others have proposed as a problem. And even then, what I find will not have the same import as something confirmed by an actual scientist. My expertise is as a programmer and database analyst.

Good morning lizards. Looks like the last thread made it to the top of Memorandum. Nice.

re: #222 thedopefishlives

Probably for the same reason my cats only try to kill each other as I'm trying to get ready to go to bed. Maximum human annoyance.

Yep, it's a pet conspiracy.

:)

re: #224 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards. Looks like the last thread made it to the top of Memorandum. Nice.

Indeed it is.

Good morning, lizards... back again after a break from blogging to tend to school and family matters.

re: #226 Irish Rose

Indeed it is.

Good morning, lizards... back again after a break from blogging to tend to school and family matters.

Welcome back, {rose}. Hope everything is well.

re: #227 thedopefishlives

Welcome back, {rose}. Hope everything is well.

Everything is great.
Better than great, in fact... sweetie and I are now officially engaged.

re: #228 Irish Rose

Everything is great.
Better than great, in fact... sweetie and I are now officially engaged.

Congratulations!

re: #228 Irish Rose

Everything is great.
Better than great, in fact... sweetie and I are now officially engaged.

Many congratulations! That's so wonderful! The Mrs. Fish and I are actually all excited, as our Christmas gift to ourselves this year may, in fact, be our own house. I'll finally get to own the fishbowl I live in.

re: #228 Irish Rose

Everything is great.
Better than great, in fact... sweetie and I are now officially engaged.

A WEDDING?

how cool! Congrats.

re: #228 Irish Rose

Everything is great.
Better than great, in fact... sweetie and I are now officially engaged.

Congrats.

Thanks ya'll.
We've been dating for almost five years now so it's no big surprise to our families. We'll be combining households this coming July, and we'll likely set the date for a ceremony late 2010/early 2011.

My radio just said CBS is only giving Obama 30 minutes for his speech. Then they are switching to the Victoria's Secret show that was planned. Priorities, I guess.

re: #230 thedopefishlives

Many congratulations! That's so wonderful! The Mrs. Fish and I are actually all excited, as our Christmas gift to ourselves this year may, in fact, be our own house. I'll finally get to own the fishbowl I live in.

Now that is great news!

UN marks November 29 'day of mourning'

While Israel celebrates date on which it was given a state by UN, latter plans anti-Israeli resolutions

WASHINGTON – The UN is currently marking the historic date of November 29 1947, the day in which it approved the partition plan separating Israel into two states – Jewish and Arabic.

But while in Israel the date is celebratory, as it marks the end of the British mandate and the beginning of independent rule, the UN headquarters in New York and Geneva are holding ceremonies of mourning and solidarity with the Palestinian people.

The General Assembly in New York has embarked on a two-day marathon of anti-Israeli debates and votes, during which it plans to focus on the promotion of the Palestinian issue. Hearings will be held on subjects such as sovereignty over Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

Israel has traditionally boycotted the debates due to their one-sidedness, but in recent years has changed its tune. Israel's ambassador to the UN, Gabriela Shalev, is scheduled to speak before the assembly Tuesday and condemn the UN tradition of memorializing the date on which Israel was given a state as a day of mourning.

re: #236 NJDhockeyfan

UN marks November 29 'day of mourning'

While Israel celebrates date on which it was given a state by UN, latter plans anti-Israeli resolutions

UN is mourning it's own action?

Why doesn't that suprise me.

re: #235 Irish Rose

Now that is great news!

That's the theory. The reality, of course, is quite a bit more complicated than that, but assuming it all works out to our satisfaction, we'll be able to move in some time after the new year. I only pray I'll be able to collect the necessary funds before then.

Federal Subsidy to COBRA Ends

Unemployed Americans are about to see their health care costs soar.

A federal subsidy to COBRA ends Tuesday.

COBRA is the program that allows workers to keep their company's health insurance plan after they leave their job.

The subsidy was part of the the economic stimulus bill President Obama signed in February. It lowered the cost of COBRA by 65% for workers laid off after September 1 of last year. But the subsidy only lasted nine months.

Advocacy group Families USA says the average family using COBRA will see their insurance premiums jump from $389 per month to more than $1,100 per month.

Rat-eating plant discovered in Philippines

The plant is among the largest of all pitchers and is believed to be the largest meat-eating shrub, dissolving rats with acid-like enzymes.

The team of botanists, led by British experts Stewart McPherson and Alastair Robinson, found the plant on Mount Victoria in the Philippines.

They were inspired to search for the plant after word that it is existed came from two Christian missionaries who described seeing a large carnivorous pitcher in 2000 after they climbed the mountain.

Mr McPherson, of Poole Dorset, said: "The plant produces spectacular traps which catch not only insects, but also rodents. It is remarkable that it remained undiscovered until the 21st century."

The team, which found the plant in 2007 following a two-month expedition, published details of their discovery in the Botanical Journal of Linnean Society earlier this year following a three-year study of all 120 species of pitcher plant.

How cool is that?

re: #238 thedopefishlives

It's a blessed thing to own your own home.

I own mine, and I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with it yet as sweetie and I are both homeowners... we'd eventually like to sell them both and buy something larger with some acreage.

My home is in a great location in a quaint little resort town near the Lake Michigan shoreline. I'll probably try to sell it over the summer... if I can't get a decent return on my initial investment, I'll likely take it off the market and rent it out for a while.

Have a great day all!

re: #239 NJDhockeyfan

not good. very not good.

Pres. Bush announced The Surge from the Oval Office. BHO will announce his increase in troops at West Point.

re: #244 MandyManners

Pres. Bush announced The Surge from the Oval Office. BHO will announce his increase in troops at West Point.

Backdrop doesn't matter if there is no substance to the speech.

re: #245 Cannadian Club Akbar

Backdrop doesn't matter if there is no substance to the speech.

That's not the point. Just think about the two fora for a minute.

re: #246 MandyManners

That's not the point. Just think about the two fora for a minute.

K. I give up.

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area.

The good news for the day is that Maurice Clemmons was killed by a Seattle area police officer after the officer spotted him in the vicinity of a stolen vehicle. Clemmons refused to obey the officer's directives, and the officer shot and killed Clemmons. Clemmons was found to possess a weapon from one of the four police officers he murdered. He also had a gunshot wound from that encounter.

Huckabee's record continues to take a justified beating, and while he claimed on O'Reilly that he wouldn't have made the decision to commute his sentence had he known what he knows now, his PAC site continues to blame others for the decision to commute.

Today is also when President Obama is scheduled to announce a troop surge. He's doing so at West Point, and it's expected that the US Marines are the first wave of the troop increase. Most critical is how Obama couches the exit strategy. If he gives any signals to a cut and run even with a troop increase, he should rightfully catch flak for his inability to grasp the seriousness of the situation and 3 months of "thoughtful consideration" will be shown to be little more than dithering and contemplating the political fallout off the decision rather than improving US national security.

But in between all that, here's a nature photo to bring things into balance.

Why, yes, I am a pedantic twit.

re: #247 Cannadian Club Akbar

K. I give up.

Did Pres. Bush need a captive audience to applaud?

re: #250 MandyManners

Did Pres. Bush need a captive audience to applaud?

Leader lead.

re: #250 MandyManners

Did Pres. Bush need a captive audience to applaud?

"You guys make a pretty good photo op."
~BHO

re: #252 NJDhockeyfan

"You guys make a pretty good photo op."
~BHO

You're on the right trail!

re: #253 MandyManners

You're on the right trail!

IIRC, Obama has given speeches and gotten a smattering of applause at military bases.