The Climategate Criminal Conspiracy

Environment • Views: 13,511

David Hone, climate change advisor for Shell Oil, has an excellent comment about the phony scandal drearily dubbed “Climategate:” Just what is in a “political agreement”?

I think that the science now tells us more than enough to warrant action. Certainly there remain uncertainties, but not on the issue as a whole.

With regards the private e-mails posted on the internet, I think the story is a simple one and it could apply to any one of us. Think of all the e-mails you have written over the past 10 years. Now imagine that someone criminally breaks into your e-mail account and downloads all of them, handpicks a few and posts them on the internet to cast you in a particular light. We could all be shown to be saints or sinners or anything in between.

Now look at what has happened with these scientists going about their work in much the same way anyone of us might attend to our job. Enough said.

Absolutely right. Hone sees what’s going on very clearly — the CRU theft was a criminal attempt to sabotage the Copenhagen climate summit, and the entire right wing blogosphere is complicit in the crime.

(Hat tip: Big Steve.)

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598 comments
1 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 1:58:59pm

I keep seeing "whistle-blower" being used out there in internet land.

2 transient  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:00:36pm

If someone accessed my private email and sent a few choice ones to my employer, I'd be fired for sure.

3 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:02:08pm

Wait...I thought oil companies were teH Big Bad...you know- the 'oil' in 'Big Oil'.

Or is 'Big Oil' sooo 2004 now?

4 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:02:28pm

I keep telling my kids to use Facebook, e-mail and texting as though it were a public relations tool. Here is another great illustration.

5 yoshicastmaster  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:03:09pm

Sure condemn the theft- but if there's anything that makes us doubt the science, that should be considered. This isn't US court where we disregard illicitly solicited information.

Unfortunately, there isn't much to speak to the science. Oh emails were deleted and some people used the word 'trick' in another email- but who cares. When the climate critics manage to challenge the science, and not just nitpick the wording in private emails, I'll be more impressed.

That they label these emails climategate suggests just how desperate they are to use anything to discredit the science. Give me evidence that the science is wrong and deliberately misleading and label that climategate.

6 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:04:17pm

re: #3 Fenway_Nation

Wait...I thought oil companies were teH Big Bad...you know- the 'oil' in 'Big Oil'.

Or is 'Big Oil' sooo 2004 now?

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

7 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:05:43pm

I was reading about bio-fuels, and linked a story about Shell a day or two ago. They seem to have a smart take on the issue. I'm glad one of the energy companies has a grasp on the seriousness of the situation.

8 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:06:34pm

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups.

Right- I must've been sleeping under a rock the last eight years or so. Nobody thought to provide me with a list of 'approved' oil companies.

9 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:06:40pm

Have they discovered who hacked the email account yet? When Sarah Palin's cougar_gov@yahoo account was hacked, I seem to recall the person who did it was discovered in a day...but no word yet on who hacked the scientists emails? At the risk of sounding like a tin-foil conspiracy nut (I'm not, mind you), I'd say it had to be someone with a little bit of money and a vested interest in sabotaging the Copenhagen summit.

10 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:06:59pm

I'm sorry, but the tone makes it seem like they were emails between and husband and wife, not work/research emails from a publicly funded institution (no, I'm not justifying theft, if it wasn't a whistleblower).

It seems a couple of people got busted, not a whole community.

Accountants pull magic tricks all the time with numbers.

Enron didn't put the whole profession to shame.

11 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:07:51pm
Now imagine that someone ciminally breaks into your e-mail account and downloads all of them, handpicks a few and posts them on the internet to cast you in a particular light. We could all be shown to be saints or sinners or anything in between.

I'm not saying this is a bad point but it's not entirely fair. My personal emails and my business emails are worlds apart in style, grammar, context, etc. If someone were to break into my business email I feel quite confident that it's all squeaky clean; at most, a small contextual explanation might be needed. My personal emails, not as squeaky clean. And when I had a State of Utah issued email address, it was even squeakier clean than my business email.

12 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:10:49pm

re: #11 bosforus

That being said, bad light can be cast onto anything. From what I've seen the CRU doesn't really have much to be answer for concerning the emails. And what questions exist seem to be getting responses.

13 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:11:23pm

re: #12 bosforus

That being said, bad light can be cast onto anything. From what I've seen the CRU doesn't really have much to be answer for concerning the emails. And what questions exist seem to be getting responses.

Oops

14 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:11:26pm

re: #11 bosforus

I'm not saying this is a bad point but it's not entirely fair. My personal emails and my business emails are worlds apart in style, grammar, context, etc. If someone were to break into my business email I feel quite confident that it's all squeaky clean; at most, a small contextual explanation might be needed. My personal emails, not as squeaky clean. And when I had a State of Utah issued email address, it was even squeakier clean than my business email.

Yes, it is completely fair. The CRU emails were deliberately cherry-picked by the criminal who stole them, out of many many thousands of emails, to find the ones that would give the worst impression.

15 Baier  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:11:39pm

re: #11 bosforus

I'm not saying this is a bad point but it's not entirely fair. My personal emails and my business emails are worlds apart in style, grammar, context, etc. If someone were to break into my business email I feel quite confident that it's all squeaky clean; at most, a small contextual explanation might be needed. My personal emails, not as squeaky clean. And when I had a State of Utah issued email address, it was even squeakier clean than my business email.

It depends on you work culture too. I've worked places that are entirely to lax about emails. I think academia does not take this kind of thing as seriously as a law firm or a financial institution.

16 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:11:54pm

re: #6 Charles

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

Yep- Shell is pretty smart. Here's that story on bio-fuels:

Algae biofuels still 10 years away, says Shell

Shell has been one of the most vocal advocates of second-generation biofuels among big oil and has argued that subsidies and regulation to encourage R&D should be reformed in favour of products that cut emissions. It currently believes that all biofuel production is supported indiscriminately no matter what the environmental impact.

What I believe Shell is talking about here are some of the concerns Thanos keeps pointing out are problems with bio-fuels as they stand now. Still learning about some of these issues, but the R&D is interesting. It's unfortunate other energy companies are spending their money fighting against AGW when the money would be better spend on R&D.

17 Soap_Man  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:12:53pm

re: #9 darthstar

Well, the kid who stole Palin's email was just a kid who got his hands on her password. (If I recall correctly.)

Whoever hacked into CRU is probably a lot more sophisticated and is much better at covering his/her/their tracks.

18 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:13:21pm

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

I know it's just marketing but on TV here in California I see LOTS of Shell commercials talking about all forms of energy and specifically renewable ones. It might just be a shuck and jive but the seem to be taking the high road. More research on this would be a good thing as there is a "slight chance" that perhaps a commercial isn't the best place to get accurate information.

19 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:13:32pm

Any place I have worked made quite clear what could or could not be put in writting.

20 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:14:22pm

re: #8 Fenway_Nation

I hope you check out #16.

21 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:15:35pm

re: #17 Soap_Man

Good point.

23 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:18:09pm

re: #14 Charles

Yes, it is completely fair. The CRU emails were deliberately cherry-picked by the criminal who stole them, out of many many thousands of emails, to find the ones that would give the worst impression.

Very true.

24 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #9 darthstar

Have they discovered who hacked the email account yet? When Sarah Palin's cougar_gov@yahoo account was hacked, I seem to recall the person who did it was discovered in a day...but no word yet on who hacked the scientists emails? At the risk of sounding like a tin-foil conspiracy nut (I'm not, mind you), I'd say it had to be someone with a little bit of money and a vested interest in sabotaging the Copenhagen summit.

The kid who hacked Sarah Palins private e-mail (which was not exactly securely passworded) was bragging about it under a tracable alias. Not exactly top flight genious stuff. Other bloggers ID'd the kid.

25 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:19:22pm

re: #22 Ben Hur

thanks

26 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:19:49pm

OT OT OT
My LGF calendar arrived today.
If you haven't ordered yours yet, I recommend you go ahead and order it - quality is very nice and the photos, of course, are wonderful!

27 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:21:21pm

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

Shell and BP, for example, have been doing work on alternative fuels, wind, and solar for a long time. I'm sure ExxonMobil (and other "American" oil companies such as ConocoPhillips and Marathon) are working on stuff like that, but ExxonMobil just seems to be kicking and screaming on the way.

28 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:22:13pm

re: #26 reine.de.tout

OT OT OT
My LGF calendar arrived today.
If you haven't ordered yours yet, I recommend you go ahead and order it - quality is very nice and the photos, of course, are wonderful!


By Paul Gauge

Perfect for any family member who may just be too much trouble in the coming year. As another reviewer at American Digest pointed out, "These are the landscapes suicides see just before they pull the trigger."

Why is it some people just seem to go out of their way to be A-holes?

Are there pictures of the underground lair beneath Denver International? /

29 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:22:53pm

re: #26 reine.de.tout

OT OT OT
My LGF calendar arrived today.
If you haven't ordered yours yet, I recommend you go ahead and order it - quality is very nice and the photos, of course, are wonderful!

Charles I respectfully request that you take instruction from PETA on this one subject. I'm sure there are hordes of adoring models waiting to disrobe for the 2011 LGF calendar. Sign me up!

31 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:24:00pm

Glenn Beck is doing climate gate right now on TV. And of course blowing it completely out of proportion.

32 Soap_Man  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:24:38pm

re: #24 DaddyG

This is why I hate those security passwords on email accounts. It would probably be pretty easy, as long as you knew my full name, to find out where I went to high school and what my mother's maiden name is. Then, just like that, you change my password, look through my hundreds of sent and received emails and pick a handful that make me look like a fool.

(Which is why I always give nonsense answers to those questions.)

33 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:24:47pm

re: #31 ausador

Glenn Beck is doing climate gate right now on TV. And of course blowing it completely out of proportion.

Ironically, "hot air" has a specific meaning within the Kyoto Protocol.

34 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:24:52pm

re: #29 Locker

Charles I respectfully request that you take instruction from PETA on this one subject. I'm sure there are hordes of adoring models waiting to disrobe for the 2011 LGF calendar. Sign me up!


Just don't use a Koran to cover your private bits. That could get ugly. /

35 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:25:34pm

re: #30 John Neverbend

Ah, it's not a complete day without a Daily Fail story.

Take it with a grain of salt; it's Daily Mail.

36 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:25:49pm

re: #34 DaddyG

Just don't use a Koran to cover your private bits. That could get ugly. /

Ahaha I meant sign me up for an order not for posing. Me on a calendar disrobed with a Koran covering my private bits would pretty much guarantee zero sales for the yar.

37 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:26:02pm

Of course his guest doing the slant bashing for him is Jonah Goldberg...who'd have thought?

38 ROP?LOL  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:26:30pm

Can I change my nic to
"Climate change ? LOL"

39 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:27:34pm

re: #36 Locker

Ahaha I meant sign me up for an order not for posing. Me on a calendar disrobed with a Koran covering my private bits would pretty much guarantee zero sales for the yar.

Heh.
If I tried that it would cause a fatwad Fatwa!

40 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:27:37pm

re: #35 Obdicut

Ah, it's not a complete day without a Daily Fail story.

Take it with a grain of salt; it's Daily Mail.

No it's not.

41 avanti  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:27:46pm

re: #31 ausador

Glenn Beck is doing climate gate right now on TV. And of course blowing it completely out of proportion.

Yep, one lie after another. AGW is a fraud, books were cooked, temperatures faked. He says AGW is coming apart at the seams, and the MSN is ignoring it, ,but Fox will save us all.

42 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:28:22pm

re: #26 reine.de.tout

OT OT OT
My LGF calendar arrived today.
If you haven't ordered yours yet, I recommend you go ahead and order it - quality is very nice and the photos, of course, are wonderful!

Great to know it turned out well in printing! I haven't received my own copy yet...

43 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:28:26pm

re: #26 reine.de.tout

OT OT OT
My LGF calendar arrived today.
If you haven't ordered yours yet, I recommend you go ahead and order it - quality is very nice and the photos, of course, are wonderful!

Mine should be here today or tomorrow. I can hardly wait!

44 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:28:50pm

re: #40 Ben Hur

No it's not.

I mean the second link.

Regardless, I don't know what the mail would gain by making up a story about the scientist in the center of this trying to help the cops find out who hacked the CRU.

45 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:29:20pm

re: #41 avanti
Hey Avanti- did you see my earler post that I was thinking about your hobby when I visited this place last week?

46 acwgusa  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:29:26pm

Ouch! I just stapled my finger! Stinking paperwork!

47 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:29:36pm

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

What's all this fairminded sifting of the actual facts? You'll never get a writing gig at Mother Jones with an attitude like that.

48 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:30:08pm

re: #46 acwgusa

Ouch! I just stapled my finger! Stinking paperwork!

Sorry but for some reason that reminded me of the eye doctor stapling Cartman's glasses to his head. Hilarious.

49 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:30:41pm

re: #46 acwgusa

Ouch! I just stapled my finger! Stinking paperwork!

step away from the shredder...

50 acwgusa  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:31:23pm

re: #49 brookly red

step away from the shredder...

I would be evening news fodder then.

51 steelerjoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:31:24pm

re: #6 Charles

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

I have worked on a few of the refrigeration systems for the Shell Oil shale oil project in Colorado. Shell is playing both sides. They ran into the greenies that were against any oil shale reclamation. Neat project that would eliminate the need for imports if they can get the cost down and if we would start using our own resources.

52 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:31:39pm

re: #32 Soap_Man

This is why I hate those security passwords on email accounts. It would probably be pretty easy, as long as you knew my full name, to find out where I went to high school and what my mother's maiden name is. Then, just like that, you change my password, look through my hundreds of sent and received emails and pick a handful that make me look like a fool.

(Which is why I always give nonsense answers to those questions.)

I always advise people (if they ask) NOT to use real information for the answers to those security questions. The only important thing is that you give the answer you programmed in -- it doesn't have to be real info. It's much safer to use answers that don't relate to your real life at all.

53 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:31:49pm

re: #46 acwgusa

Ouch! I just stapled my finger! Stinking paperwork!

Just be thankful you aren't a sheet metal press operator right now.

54 cliffster  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:32:30pm

re: #52 Charles

Somebody should have told Sarah Palin that.

55 acwgusa  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:32:36pm

re: #53 DaddyG

Just be thankful you aren't a sheet metal press operator right now.

I couldn't catch a brake then.

/Sheet metal humor...

56 AtadOFF  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:32:37pm

Don't go wishy washy on Shell. They have more than one stain in their armour.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

But I will agree that they show greater interest in alt energy then most energy companies.

57 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:33:11pm

re: #44 Ben Hur

It's the Daily Mail. They have no journalistic standards. I'm just saying for any story on the Daily Mail, always find another reputable source.

They're an outrage tabloid. They gain from it by people talking about it and linking to it.

58 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:33:18pm

Copenhagen was doomed BEFORE climategate.
Now the chameleonic pols (including Obama) will have yet another whining excuse for their failure to take action on climate change - the criminal climategate right-wing conspiracy!

59 avanti  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:33:43pm

re: #45 DaddyG

Hey Avanti- did you see my earler post that I was thinking about your hobby when I visited this place last week?

Yep, been there myself.

60 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:33:48pm

re: #57 Obdicut

It's the Daily Mail. They have no journalistic standards. I'm just saying for any story on the Daily Mail, always find another reputable source.

They're an outrage tabloid. They gain from it by people talking about it and linking to it.

Coolio.

61 Soap_Man  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:34:11pm

re: #41 avanti

BTW, how in the hell does Fox News get away with calling every other news outlet "mainstream"? Like they (and Newscorp) are some kind of obscure, scrappy underdog fighting huge media corporations.

62 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:34:21pm

re: #52 Charles

I always advise people (if they ask) NOT to use real information for the answers to those security questions. The only important thing is that you give the answer you programmed in -- it doesn't have to be real info. It's much safer to use answers that don't relate to your real life at all.

Extremely good advice. I would also suggest, for the guy who couldn't remember his login information earlier and others, grabbing Keepass which is an excellent, freeware password manager. It includes a feature which lets you automatically login to any website with a keystroke, thus saving you from ever storing passwords in a less than secure browser file.

[Link:keepass.info ]

63 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:34:35pm

re: #58 Spare O'Lake

Copenhagen was doomed BEFORE climategate.
Now the chameleonic pols (including Obama) will have yet another whining excuse for their failure to take action on climate change - the criminal climategate right-wing conspiracy!

vast... try to work vast in.

64 political lunatic  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:34:42pm

Come on, everyone knows it's OK if you're stealing anything in the name of God, whether it be e-mails, money, or... other things. / *rolleyes*

65 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:35:28pm

re: #59 avanti

Yep, been there myself.


I'm having fantasies about a Marmon 12 cylinder limo...

66 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:36:11pm

re: #56 AtadOFF

Don't go wishy washy on Shell. They have more than one stain in their armour.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

But I will agree that they show greater interest in alt energy then most energy companies.

Not wishy-washy - I know Shell has issues like the one in that article, but my point was that I haven't seen evidence that they fund climate change denial groups.

67 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:36:15pm

re: #37 ausador

Of course his guest doing the slant bashing for him is Jonah Goldberg...who'd have thought?

Glenn Beck & Johah Goldberg, definitely not the 2 people I go to for science information.

68 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:36:32pm

re: #63 brookly red

vast... try to work vast in.

my bad

69 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:37:36pm

Politicos from the past:

"[W]e will require all power plants to meet clean air standards in order to reduce emissions...of carbon dioxide within a reasonable time." (George W. Bush during campaign, Philadelphia Inquirer, February 14, 2001)

70 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:37:56pm

Just had a Birther flounce in the "Why I Parted Ways" thread.

71 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:37:57pm

re: #67 Stanley Sea

Glenn Beck & Johah Goldberg, definitely not the 2 people I go to for science information.

Please believe. With regard to Science I start here: physorg.com

72 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:38:14pm

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

73 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:38:49pm

The Discovery Institute has a distinct advantage. They will never be accused of destroying scientific data, as they don't use or generate any.

74 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:39:02pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

No, it is not. The word denier is a perfectly good English word that means someone who denies something. It is not reserved for use to describe Holocaust deniers.

75 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:40:32pm

re: #74 Charles

No, it is not. The word denier is a perfectly good English word that means someone who denies something. It is not reserved for use to describe Holocaust deniers.

Yes, it is. And is intentional.

Let's not get selectively literal.

I'm not telling you how to express yourself.

I'm telling you how I and others feel about it.

76 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:40:59pm

re: #75 Ben Hur

Yes, it is. And is intentional.

Let's not get selectively literal.

I'm not telling you how to express yourself.

I'm telling you how I and others feel about it.

In this context, to clarify.

77 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:41:07pm

re: #75 Ben Hur

Yes, it is. And is intentional.

Let's not get selectively literal.

I'm not telling you how to express yourself.

I'm telling you how I and others feel about it.

No, it is not intentionally used to invoke Holocaust denial. That's ridiculous.

It's used because it's the best word to describe people who simply don't care about evidence or facts.

78 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:41:08pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

Denial. Hmm, nope, I don't see any mention of the Holocaust in its definition. So, by your logic, 'denial' is only reserved for those who deny the Holocaust?

79 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:42:57pm

I've felt the label denier is used by some Lizards too broadly to include those who have questions about the veracity of some claims and specifically what political agendas are being pushed as a result of the data that is out there.

Labels and absolutes stifle discussion regardless of the topic.

80 J.S.  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:43:00pm

Personally, I haven't read any of the CRU email exchanges. Why read unauthorized, personal email? (I've also read that there may be an inquiry regarding this whole affair.)

81 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:43:50pm

re: #61 Soap_Man

Because their audience believes it.

82 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:44:26pm

If you want to see a perfect example of climate change denial, that sludge-witted show that Glenn Beck just broadcast is it.

83 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:44:34pm

re: #76 Ben Hur

In this context, to clarify.

Denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

Denial may also refer to:

* Denial (1990 film), a film written and directed by Erin Dignam
* Denial (1998 film), a film written and directed by Adam Rifkin
* "Denial" (poem), a poem by Giorgos Seferis
* Denial (song), a 2008 single by Sugababes
* Denialism, the rejection of propositions on which a scientific or scholarly consensus exists
* Denial is the 1st stage of the Kübler-Ross model
* Denial in logic is the same as Negation, for instance Denying the consequent
-Wikki

84 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:44:56pm

re: #61 Soap_Man

BTW, how in the hell does Fox News get away with calling every other news outlet "mainstream"? Like they (and Newscorp) are some kind of obscure, scrappy underdog fighting huge media corporations.

And in the same breath they say they have the most viewers. That's mainstream to me! blah

85 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:44:57pm

I have not bothered to read them either. I figure it is pretty much a non-issue in light of the bulk of the studies. I am upset that a few opinion statements become an issue when there are bigger fish to fry- like the abuse of climate change to line the pockets of "carbon credit traders" when no substancial changes are being made to actual pollution problems.

86 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:45:36pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

Sorry man I don't mean to be contrary but I don't feel that's a loaded phrase. A denier to me is someone who denies something which is determined by the predicate adjective.

87 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:45:40pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

Saying someone is "in denial" is an extremely common phrase. Or another being "denial is not a river in Egypt" or Mark Twain, "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."

denier

early 15c., from O.Fr. dener, a small coin of slight value, roughly equivalent to the English penny, in use in France from the time of Charlemagne to early modern times, from L. denarium, from denarius, name of a Roman coin (cf. Sp. dinero), originally an adj., "containing ten" from deni- "by tens," from decem "ten" (see ten).

As you can see it's been in usage since the 15th century.

88 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:45:41pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops
You forgot the river in Egypt.

BBL!

89 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:46:08pm

re: #1 Ben Hur

I keep seeing "whistle-blower" being used out there in internet land.

It seems childishly inconsistent to me, and displays a lack of credibility in some.

I doubt many that refer to this criminal act (theft of CRU email) with favorable language viewed the theft of Palin's personal email in the same light.

90 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:46:11pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Politicos from the past:

I really like the idea of the algae projects they are working on where the algae are fed from the emissions from coal plants. If they can scale that up to full size like they are trying to do it will be a real bonus.

Algae clean the plant emissions then you turn the algae into biodiesel and use the waste as animal feed or whatever. I'm really hoping they can make it work.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:46:17pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Denial is an intentionally loaded phrase meant to somehow to compare skepticism to Holocaust Denial.

Feel free to use it (obviously), but it bothers quite a few people who don't like having their rhetoric hijacked.

sorry, nobody owns the word "denial". If someone feels their rhetoric is being hijacked, they're free to dial 911 and call the Waaahmbulance. ;-)

92 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:47:02pm

re: #79 DaddyG

I've felt the label denier is used by some Lizards too broadly to include those who have questions about the veracity of some claims and specifically what political agendas are being pushed as a result of the data that is out there.

Labels and absolutes stifle discussion regardless of the topic.

I could be wrong but I think Gore uesd the term first in regard to global warming...

93 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:47:09pm

remember, if you consider global warming to be a criminal conspiracy perpetrated to ease the takeover of the world by leftist extremist socialist/communist/fascist idologues, then all means are justified in exposing it.

And facts need not get in the way of truth.

94 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:47:30pm

drudge report is pissing me off to no extent right now. fuck that guy.

95 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:47:35pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

sorry, nobody owns the word "denial". If someone feels their rhetoric is being hijacked, they're free to dial 911 and call the Waaahmbulance. ;-)

You called?

96 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:48:15pm

re: #92 brookly red

I could be wrong but I think Gore uesd the term first in regard to global warming...

According to Wikipedia...
Climate change denial

97 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:48:34pm

Sorry, I can't agree.

98 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:50:27pm

re: #58 Spare O'Lake

Copenhagen was doomed BEFORE climategate.
Now the chameleonic pols (including Obama) will have yet another whining excuse for their failure to take action on climate change - the criminal climategate right-wing conspiracy!

To be clear: Copenhagen was doomed when India and China gave the finger to the West, saying that the West had caused the AGW problem and so we could call them after we had at least 5 years of reductions under our belts and only then would they think about doing something so long as we paid for it.

99 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:50:35pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus

drudge report is pissing me off to no extent right now. fuck that guy.

I used to listen to his radio show on a Sunday. He was the only talk show host on the right or left who was not excessively rude to refractory callers.

100 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:50:54pm

Well, maybe.

But there isn't all that much to København to be sabotaged, what with their not planning to actually do anything and all.

101 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:51:04pm

re: #97 Ben Hur

Sorry, I can't agree.

With what? The topic of the thread, or something that someone posted? Clarify.

102 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:51:13pm

re: #96 John Neverbend

According to Wikipedia...
Climate change denial


/ I am a wiki skeptic...

103 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:51:50pm

Hamilton: Denying the coming climate holocaust


If the David Irvings of the world were to succeed, and the public rejected the mountain of evidence for the Holocaust, then the consequences would be a rewriting of history and a probable increase in anti-Semitism.

If the climate deniers were to succeed, and stopped the world responding to the mountain of evidence for human-induced global warming, then hundreds of millions of mostly impoverished people around the world would die from the effects of climate change.


Since we're all being literal (except when having to do with dog whistles), I will pre-empt and concede that this is just one person out of 6.5 billion on the planet.

104 Soap_Man  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:52:13pm

re: #84 Stanley Sea

My favorite hypocrisy from Fox News is their defense that Bill O, Beck and Hannity don't do news, they do commentary. Therefore, accusations of bias are unfair.

So, they say that's not their "news" programming. Okay, but I just saw an ad a few weeks ago that screamed "The O'Reilly Factor, the #1 rated cable NEWS show in America!!!"

105 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:53:23pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

With what? The topic of the thread, or something that someone posted? Clarify.

That the use of rhetoric, specifically Denier, is an intentional use of Holocaust rhetoric, to someone equate the gravity of the denial.

106 Basho  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:54:08pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus

drudge report is pissing me off to no extent right now. fuck that guy.

Rock on, SpaceJesus!!

107 Sam N  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:54:46pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

google search:

holocaust denial: 704000 hits
HIV denial: 1800000 hits

I have heard denial used much more commonly in terms of denial that HIV causes AIDS.

By the way, it is just as stupid to reject HIV to AIDS hypothesis as to reject AGW.

108 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:55:24pm

re: #105 Ben Hur

That the use of rhetoric, specifically Denier, is an intentional use of Holocaust rhetoric, to someone equate the gravity of the denial.

Got it. I don't care what they want to call it, denier, sceptic what ever. Pro or con, a silly title is not going to change facts.

109 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:55:44pm

re: #106 Basho

Rock on, SpaceJesus!!

Reminds me of a bumper sticker.

"(Space)Jesus is coming. Look busy."

110 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:55:46pm

re: #98 Spare O'Lake

To be clear: Copenhagen was doomed when India and China gave the finger to the West, saying that the West had caused the AGW problem and so we could call them after we had at least 5 years of reductions under our belts and only then would they think about doing something so long as we paid for it.

Please note:

Climate Breakthrough: Obama and China Commit to Change.

Of course, if you get all your information from right wing blogs, you could easily miss this enormous breakthrough.

111 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:57:20pm

re: #109 Cato the Elder

Reminds me of a bumper sticker.

"(Space)Jesus is coming. Look busy."

My new fav bumper sticker:
Jesus loves you
Everybody else thinks you suck

112 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:57:55pm

Tomorrow, I have to give a PowerPoint on Refrigeration of the western Cordilleran lithosphere during Laramide shallow angle subduction

Geology science stuff...the sort of thing being constantly mocked over at Redstate, Michelle Malkin. and Drudge.

What the fuck is it with hatred (yes, hatred) of actual science these days? I had thought that atavistic religious/reactionary attitudes towards science were more of a fundamentalist Islamic problem...but it has really exploded in this country. Science and engineering students in China and India are laughing at us. I don't blame them.

113 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:57:58pm

re: #107 Sam N

google search:

holocaust denial: 704000 hits
HIV denial: 1800000 hits

I have heard denial used much more commonly in terms of denial that HIV causes AIDS.

By the way, it is just as stupid to reject HIV to AIDS hypothesis as to reject AGW.

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up for the whole world. I didn't know it was as simple as just saying it. Let's see, it's stupid that I am poor... I should be rich... 5,4,3,2,1... waiting for the money... where is it... something wrong?

Geeessshhh.

114 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:58:08pm

re: #105 Ben Hur

That the use of rhetoric, specifically Denier, is an intentional use of Holocaust rhetoric, to someone equate the gravity of the denial.

I object to the use of the term also, but I will suggest that those with holocaust association are more sensitive to it's usage.

115 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:58:46pm

What I can't wait to see is the look on affluent greeniacs' faces when they're presented with their first carbon budget deficit bills.

116 Basho  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:59:27pm

re: #110 Charles

Please note:

Climate Breakthrough: Obama and China Commit to Change.

Of course, if you get all your information from right wing blogs, you could easily miss this enormous breakthrough.

Just about to mention how China responded once the US made a real commitment. That debunks that. Not that the fact that they announced the construction of the worlds largest solar plant months ago didn't do so already...

117 Sam N  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:00:32pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

I actually just made the leap in terms of tactics between HIV deniers and climate deniers. Both are considerably more complex problems to prove than evolution, and can use remarkably similar tactics in attacking the science.

But painstaking explanation for why the evidence for AGW is so strong is already provided by copiously posted links on this blog.

I guess maybe its just that the effects of HIV are so much more... immediate.

118 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:01:08pm

re: #115 Cato the Elder

What I can't wait to see is the look on affluent greeniacs' faces when they're presented with their first carbon budget deficit bills.

Get behind me Satan... :)

119 Soap_Man  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:02:13pm

Well folks, I gotta run, but it is has been a fun first day.

It's so nice to be able to post comments in favor of stem cell research and comments critical of Fox News without a bunch of whackjobs screaming at me in all caps.

120 Basho  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:02:44pm

I need tfk's opinion on which Mark Levin product to buy in order to make an informed decision on climate change. Whatever happened to him?

121 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:02:58pm

OT: Today I created a Wiki account for the specific purpose of removing a certain popular polemicist and rumored lover of a harpy who shrieks from the list of contemporary Catholic theologians.

It will be interesting to see if a tussle ensues.

122 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:03:33pm

re: #119 Soap_Man

Well folks, I gotta run, but it is has been a fun first day.

It's so nice to be able to post comments in favor of stem cell research and comments critical of Fox News without a bunch of whackjobs screaming at me in all caps.

HOW THE HELL DID SOAP_MAN GET IN HERE? :)

123 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:06pm

re: #105 Ben Hur

That the use of rhetoric, specifically Denier, is an intentional use of Holocaust rhetoric, to someone equate the gravity of the denial.

Excuse me? Let me get this straight. If I use any variation of the word 'deny' to describe one's position, I am invoking 'Holocaust rhetoric'???

124 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:08pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder

OT: Today I created a Wiki account for the specific purpose of removing a certain popular polemicist and rumored lover of a harpy who shrieks from the list of contemporary Catholic theologians.

It will be interesting to see if a tussle ensues.

Inquiring minds want to know!

125 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:12pm

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

HOW THE HELL DID SOAP_MAN GET IN HERE? :)

Why the hell are people still using underscores in their nics like this was still 1998?

126 ignoranceisfatal  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:22pm

re: #117 Sam N

The difference between HIV and AGW deniers is that virtually nobody takes the former seriously anymore. Here's hoping the latter eventually suffer the same fate.

127 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:27pm
128 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:04:44pm

re: #120 Basho

Banned.

nuff said

129 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:07pm

re: #124 celticdragon

Inquiring minds want to know!

I'm not naming names because they scan LGF for any mention of their august selves.

Ask around.

130 Basho  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:11pm

re: #128 Bubblehead II

Mwahaha! Awesome.

131 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:16pm

re: #125 Cato the Elder

Why the hell are people still using underscores in their nics like this was still 1998?

I miss the days when zeros had slashes through them.

132 ignoranceisfatal  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:20pm

re: #125 Cato the Elder

Why the hell are people still using underscores in their nics like this was still 1998?

Old_habits_die_hard

133 recusancy  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:46pm

re: #126 ignoranceisfatal

The difference between HIV and AGW deniers is that virtually nobody takes the former seriously anymore. Here's hoping the latter eventually suffer the same fate.

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

134 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:05:55pm

re: #120 Basho

I need tfk's opinion on which Mark Levin product to buy in order to make an informed decision on climate change. Whatever happened to him?

You will have to go to the blogmockery to talk to tfk, and I don't personally advise posting at that site unless your shots are up-to-date.

135 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:06:28pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

I miss the days when zeros had slashes through them.

I do my 7s with a line through them.

136 abolitionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:06:36pm

re: #74 Charles

No, it is not. The word denier is a perfectly good English word that means someone who denies something. It is not reserved for use to describe Holocaust deniers.

Charles, denier may be a perfectly bland term with a clear meaning to most people of western culture, but it is a highly charged term in some other cultures.

Kufr - Entymology

The word kāfir is the active participle of the root K-F-R "to cover". As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground, covering them with soil while planting. Thus, the word kāfir implies the meaning "a person who hides or covers". In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers [viz., the truth]".[2]

"kafara" ~ the root verb ~ means "he hid (something)" and "he covered (something)" or "He hid (something) by covering it up." Both "hiding" and "covering up" are indelible significations of all of the words arising on the verbal root.

The Hebrew cognate word kofer also means "apostate".

137 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:06:50pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

I do my 7s with a line through them.

Same here.

138 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:07:09pm

re: #126 ignoranceisfatal

The difference between HIV and AGW deniers is that virtually nobody takes the former seriously anymore. Here's hoping the latter eventually suffer the same fate.

You mean death?

139 Basho  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:07:38pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Yeah, I'll pass on catching up with that nut. I love that all these veterans posters who had a vendetta against me are gone. I got good taste. Love ya, Sharm ;)

140 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:08:05pm

Fort Hood suspect charged with attempted murder

An Army psychiatrist was charged Wednesday with 32 counts of attempted premeditated murder in the deadly mass shooting at Fort Hood that also injured more than two dozen soldiers and two civilian police officers, military officials said.

Maj. Nidal Hasan has already been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder after the Nov. 5 shooting in a building at the Texas base where soldiers must go before being deployed. Witnesses said he jumped on a desk and shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" Army officials have said he was armed with two pistols, one a semiautomatic capable of firing up to 20 rounds without reloading.

The additional charges come less than 24 hours after Hasan's civilian attorney was notified that the Army plans to evaluate Hasan to test his competency to stand trial as well as his mental state at the time of the shooting.

141 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:08:24pm

I do my Z's with a line through them.

142 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:08:35pm

I'm not going to allow links to PJ Media here.

143 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:09:09pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

You will have to go to the blogmockery to talk to tfk, and I don't personally advise posting at that site unless your shots are up-to-date.

Is their a human version of Brucella abortus vaccine - RB51?

//

144 Sam N  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:09:15pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

You mean death?

Many of the more prominent HIV deniers, e.g. Duesberg, do not have HIV.

145 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

I still slash my hand written zeros. Way to many of the part numbers we use are alpha numeric and if the lady that orders our parts uses a O instead of a 0, well we either don't get the part or it is the wrong one.

146 Idle Drifter  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:10:00pm

re: #133 recusancy

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

Well considering all the other nutty crap floating around as conspiracy theories can't say I'm surprised that there are people who deny the existence of HIV.

147 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:10:01pm

re: #135 Sharmuta

I do my 7s with a line through them.

Me too. My z's as well. My t's used to look like they do with this font (seriffed is the word?) but that was because I was in the habit of using it as an algebraic symbol.

148 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #133 recusancy

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

149 TheMatrix31  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:12:14pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

I wish he was charged with being a terrorist fuck, but whatever.

150 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:12:17pm

re: #142 Charles

I'm not going to allow links to PJ Media here.

Wow.

I know they have been hitting the loco weed pretty hard, but no links? heh!

151 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:12:28pm

re: #17 Soap_Man

Well, the kid who stole Palin's email was just a kid who got his hands on her password. (If I recall correctly.)

Whoever hacked into CRU is probably a lot more sophisticated and is much better at covering his/her/their tracks.

Correct. Being more sophisticated than Palin's hacker means being able to tie your own shoelaces.

Also, the Feds jumped on the Palin case, while the CRU case seems to be in the hands of University security.

152 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:12:46pm

Here's an article about it at the Skeptic's Dictionary:

[Link: www.skepdic.com...]

153 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:11pm

re: #110 Charles

Please note:

Climate Breakthrough: Obama and China Commit to Change.

Of course, if you get all your information from right wing blogs, you could easily miss this enormous breakthrough.

From the article:

China and the U.S. would do their part by reducing their own emissions, according to a joint statement Hu and Obama issued. The statement’s most important sentence made the point that any agreement in Copenhagen should “include emission reduction targets of developed countries and nationally appropriate mitigation actions of developing countries.” In other words, the U.S. and other rich industrial nations would cut emissions by specific amounts by specific dates, while China and other emerging economies would also seek to reduce emissions, though they would be granted greater flexibility due to their continuing need to lift millions of their people out of poverty.

Enormous breakthrough...give me a break. This so-called agreement is nothing of the kind by China and is in substantial accord with my previous comment.

154 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:37pm

re: #148 Charles

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

Another was the former president of South Africa.

155 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:40pm

re: #150 celticdragon

Wow.

I know they have been hitting the loco weed pretty hard, but no links? heh!

When they started publishing articles by white supremacists like Robert Stacy McCain, I decided I would no more allow links to them than I would allow links to Stormfront.

156 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:42pm

re: #110 Charles

No, no, no. Haven't you read the MSM? That trip was a waste of time. All symbolism, no substance.

/

157 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:55pm

re: #9 darthstar

Have they discovered who hacked the email account yet? When Sarah Palin's cougar_gov@yahoo account was hacked, I seem to recall the person who did it was discovered in a day...but no word yet on who hacked the scientists emails? At the risk of sounding like a tin-foil conspiracy nut (I'm not, mind you), I'd say it had to be someone with a little bit of money and a vested interest in sabotaging the Copenhagen summit.

Hah, welcome. Upding just for cool avatar.

158 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:13:59pm

re: #133 recusancy

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

People deny the link between HIV and AIDS, not the existence of HIV itself.

159 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:14:04pm

re: #136 abolitionist

The Hebrew cognate word kofer also means "apostate".

Interesting. The only Talmudic words for apostate that I knew were "apikoros" and "min", the former of which sounds as though it's of Greek origin.

160 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:14:39pm

re: #94 SpaceJesus

drudge report is pissing me off to no extent right now. fuck that guy.

Aw, you made me look.

161 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:14:58pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

NPR reported that he actually drew a bead on the officer's head (the gal who shot him) and then changed his aim and shot her in the leg. He also had shots at civilians, but paused and turned his aim on soldiers. So he wasn't just randomly killing, so much as targeting troops. That takes away the temporary insanity charge, and it also takes away the terrorism claim.

162 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:14:58pm

re: #148 Charles

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

163 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:15:05pm

I deny being a...er...uh...denier.

Hmph. Now I am really confused.

164 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:15:27pm

re: #149 TheMatrix31

I wish he was charged with being a terrorist fuck, but whatever.

Why? Then he'd get a federal court and not a military one.

165 recusancy  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:15:50pm

re: #162 Sharmuta

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Weird.

166 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:16:17pm

re: #148 Charles

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

You have got to be frakkin' kidding me. I knew the last President of South Africa was spewing this idiocy...but I had no idea that anyone (notable) here in the states was trying to pull that.

Again, this is why I am so contemptuous of home schooling. If you do not have rigorous and competent training in science, history etc in a school setting...you end up being persuadable by dangerous, pre scientific magical thinking like what this charlatan pumps out.

167 ignoranceisfatal  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:16:25pm

re: #161 darthstar

it also takes away the terrorism claim.

Really? So killing just soldiers isn't a terrorist act?

168 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:16:37pm

re: #166 celticdragon

See 162.

169 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:16:44pm

re: #133 recusancy

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

It's widespread in Africa, with explanations running from non-existence to a CIA poisoning plot. The idea that it's a sexually transmitted virus that can be controlled with simple measure like condoms hasn't reached a large portion of the population, and the bullshit is often peddled at the highest levels of government.

Denial used to be prevalent in the West, as well, but apart from a few isolated idiots those days are gone.

More.

170 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:17:23pm

re: #164 Sharmuta

Why? Then he'd get a federal court and not a military one.

terrorism deniers?

171 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:17:35pm

re: #165 recusancy

Weird.

Once you abandon rational thought, it opens up a whole world of possibilities.

172 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:17:40pm

re: #163 brownbagj

I deny being a...er...uh...denier.

Hmph. Now I am really confused.

Sort of like the old paradox about all Cretans being liars, said by a Cretan.

I deny being a denier, but I am proud to be a skeptic about the political/economic "solutions" being pushed on a world that is far less panicky than some would like it to be.

173 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:17:50pm

re: #165 recusancy

Weird.

Yeah- I recall when I was first reading more on him- the AIDS denial is some messed up stuff.

174 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:18:39pm

re: #145 Bubblehead II

I still slash my hand written zeros. Way to many of the part numbers we use are alpha numeric and if the lady that orders our parts uses a O instead of a 0, well we either don't get the part or it is the wrong one.

I slash Zeros and Sevens as I can't even read my own writing most of the time.

175 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:18:57pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV.

176 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:19:19pm

re: #110 Charles

Of course, if you get all your information from right wing blogs, you could easily miss this enormous breakthrough.

1. I don't.
2. The article you linked was from Vanity Fair.

177 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:19:41pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

It's widespread in Africa, with explanations running from non-existence to a CIA poisoning plot. The idea that it's a sexually transmitted virus that can be controlled with simple measure like condoms hasn't reached a large portion of the population, and the bullshit is often peddled at the highest levels of government.

Denial used to be prevalent in the West, as well, but apart from a few isolated idiots those days are gone.

More.

Did you hear the one about the widespread belief in some African regions that you can cure or prevent AIDS by having sex with a virgin? That one, and it's obvious implications, sickened me.

178 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:19:57pm

re: #167 ignoranceisfatal

Really? So killing just soldiers isn't a terrorist act?

What killing just soldiers says is that this was an act of retaliation against US troops. Military, not civilian, targets. That doesn't change the horrific nature of the event, mind you. This was a pre-meditated assault on soldiers, with a conscious effort to not harm civilians. That's not exactly terrorism.

179 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:20:02pm

re: #148 Charles

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

It's not just dangerous - it's deadly, and Johnson's promotion of such twaddle is particularly evil because he does it, not out of actual belief that he is correct, but because he believes that AIDS is a scourge sent by God to punish homosexuals and other sinners and he earnestly wants to see "those people" die from it. Spreading disinformation is a deliberate attempt on his part to kill people.

180 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:20:08pm

re: #172 Cato the Elder

Sort of like the old paradox about all Cretans being liars, said by a Cretan.

I deny being a denier, but I am proud to be a skeptic about the political/economic "solutions" being pushed on a world that is far less panicky than some would like it to be.

Me too. I have yet to figure out how moving money from here to Ethiopia via a tax reduces CO2 emissions.

If we can get the revenue schemes out and scientific solutions in...the human race may have a chance. If not...well I will deny I said this.

181 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:21:23pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

Nice guy. The Inquisition would have loved him.

182 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:21:23pm

re: #112 celticdragon

Tomorrow, I have to give a PowerPoint on Refrigeration of the western Cordilleran lithosphere during Laramide shallow angle subduction

Geology science stuff...the sort of thing being constantly mocked over at Redstate, Michelle Malkin. and Drudge.

What the fuck is it with hatred (yes, hatred) of actual science these days? I had thought that atavistic religious/reactionary attitudes towards science were more of a fundamentalist Islamic problem...but it has really exploded in this country. Science and engineering students in China and India are laughing at us. I don't blame them.

Because the evil atheistic cabal of scientists are leading people away from the truths of God and creation. /

There are a lot of people out there that actually believe that, including several members of my family. Brace yourself because it is only going to get worse, less people are following the church everyday, don't think they havn't noticed. Many of them feel increaseingly threatened by our secular society and science besides being seen as the "enemy" makes a highly visible target and an easy one for the organizers of this madness.

Don't think they are going "quietly into that good night" they are going to fight back. Look at what is going on in the GOP right now...

183 Idle Drifter  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:21:45pm

re: #177 CyanSnowHawk

Did you hear the one about the widespread belief in some African regions that you can cure or prevent AIDS by having sex with a virgin? That one, and it's obvious implications, sickened me.

The truly sick part of the whole sex with a virgin is how young the practitioners were willing to go.

184 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:23:40pm

re: #183 Idle Drifter

The truly sick part of the whole sex with a virgin is how young the practitioners were willing to go.

There's a long 'folk' tradition that sex with a virgin cures all kinds of things. It used to be syphilis.

People are such bastards.

185 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:23:57pm

re: #180 brownbagj

Me too. I have yet to figure out how moving money from here to Ethiopia via a tax reduces CO2 emissions.

If we can get the revenue schemes out and scientific solutions in...the human race may have a chance. If not...well I will deny I said this.

Well, moving money around doesn't do a thing about CO2 (unless somebody here wants to step up to the plate and show me how it does).

It accomplishes other ends, though.

186 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #182 ausador

Don't think they are going "quietly into that good night" they are going to fight back. Look at what is going on in the GOP right now...

Actually "gentle into that good night", but I take your point.

187 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:24:35pm

re: #175 Obdicut

The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV.

I have had some heated arguments with a conservative Catholic woman at the Crunchy Con blog regarding this sort of thing. She believes that birth control is evil and hence, anything that the Catholic Church says is evil should also be illegal. She is unapologetically upfront in saying her religious views should and must be enforced by coercive government power.

188 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:25:16pm

re: #167 ignoranceisfatal

Really? So killing just soldiers isn't a terrorist act?

There isn't a clear-cut definition of terrorism, but military targets are generally considered outside of it. Terrorism aims to affect the civilian population, and is employed in situation where there is a massive force imbalance, making direct military action impossible for one side.

Things get blurry in a hurry, of course, but that's the general starting point.

189 badger1  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:00pm

Er, no. The scandal of climategate is the CRU's destructive efforts against scientific inquiry.

Destruction of the raw data upon which trillion dollar policy decisions are being based is a scandal. It is not a "conspiracy" but is an enormously stupid crime against free inquiry.

Stonewalling release of taxpayer-funded research; unbelievable.

Conspiring to Delete emails and data in the face of lawful FOIA requests is a flat-out crime.

Efforts to quash dissenting views and manipulate the peer-review process are disgusting.

This is a true disaster, and I do not understand the attempts to defend the indefensible.

It is not a problem of the "right wing blogosphere", it is a problem of men (scientists) making very poor decisions with enormous effects on world policy.

190 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:09pm

re: #175 Obdicut

The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV.

Link to that "fact?"

191 ignoranceisfatal  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:37pm

re: #188 SixDegrees

There isn't a clear-cut definition of terrorism, but military targets are generally considered outside of it. Terrorism aims to affect the civilian population, and is employed in situation where there is a massive force imbalance, making direct military action impossible for one side.

Things get blurry in a hurry, of course, but that's the general starting point.

OK, fair enough. Tough to draw boundaries, I guess. IIRC, the attack on the USS Cole was generally referred to as a terrorist attack. But maybe that's because of the other activities of the group it was perpetrated by.

192 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:37pm

re: #177 CyanSnowHawk

Did you hear the one about the widespread belief in some African regions that you can cure or prevent AIDS by having sex with a virgin? That one, and it's obvious implications, sickened me.

Yes, I'm aware of that particular myth. Africa has very serious problems, and a lot of predictions have it's population crashing over the next 20 to 30 years due to disease, mostly AIDS.

193 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:47pm

Spate of suicides by foreign maids in Lebanon sheds light on abuse

A recent spate of suicides by foreign maids in Lebanon is prompting outrage among human rights groups, who say the government is doing too little to protect migrant domestic workers from severe abuse.

Over the past seven weeks at least 10 women have died, either by hanging themselves or by falling from tall buildings. Six of these cases have been reported in local media as suicides and four more have been described as possible work accidents.

194 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:27:59pm

re: #183 Idle Drifter

The truly sick part of the whole sex with a virgin is how young the practitioners were willing to go.

Yes, I have heard about that. It hit the news yesterday that albinos in parts of Africa are in fear of their lives after rumors spread that eating the body parts of an albino can give you magical powers. I wish I was making this up.

What the fuck has happened to the 21st Century??

NAIROBI, Kenya — The mistaken belief that albino body parts have magical powers has driven thousands of Africa's albinos into hiding, fearful of losing their lives and limbs to unscrupulous dealers who can make up to $75,000 selling a complete dismembered set.

Mary Owido, who lacks pigment that gives color to skin, eyes and hair, says she is only comfortable when at work or at home with her husband and children.

"Wherever I go people start talking about me, saying that my legs and hands can fetch a fortune in Tanzania," said Owido, 36, a mother of six. "This kind of talk scares me. I am afraid of going out alone."

[Link: www.google.com...]

195 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:29:08pm

re: #189 badger1

Destruction of the raw data upon which trillion dollar policy decisions are being based is a scandal. It is not a "conspiracy" but is an enormously stupid crime against free inquiry.

And again, the same completely false talking points.

NO DATA WAS DESTROYED.

196 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:29:32pm

re: #175 Obdicut

The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV.

Ok, I found the quote from the pope. You are stretching what he said...

"a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem".

You are overstating what he stated.

197 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:29:43pm

The above story mentions using body parts as talismans...I had read something about possible consumption of the body parts, but that may be maitaken...as if that is any better. :(

198 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:30:16pm

Sean Hannity was 'against' email hacking before he was 'for' it.

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

199 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:30:33pm

re: #189 badger1

Er, no. The scandal of climategate is the CRU's destructive efforts against scientific inquiry.

Destruction of the raw data upon which trillion dollar policy decisions are being based is a scandal. It is not a "conspiracy" but is an enormously stupid crime against free inquiry.

Stonewalling release of taxpayer-funded research; unbelievable.

Conspiring to Delete emails and data in the face of lawful FOIA requests is a flat-out crime.

Efforts to quash dissenting views and manipulate the peer-review process are disgusting.

This is a true disaster, and I do not understand the attempts to defend the indefensible.

It is not a problem of the "right wing blogosphere", it is a problem of men (scientists) making very poor decisions with enormous effects on world policy.

Explain to me what data was destroyed?

200 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:31:09pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Link to that "fact?"


Here

It's the old canard that distributing condoms encourages people to have sex.

Speaking to reporters aboard his Alitalia chartered jet March 17, the pope strongly defended the church's efforts to fight AIDS and said condom distribution only made the problem worse.

"One cannot overcome the problem with the distribution of condoms. On the contrary, they increase the problem," the pope said.

201 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:32:30pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

I don't feel that I am. He's saying that distributing condoms increases the transmission rate of AIDS in a population. He is wrong, and it is an incredibly harmful policy that the Catholic church has.

202 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:32:36pm

re: #198 negativ

Sean Hannity was 'against' email hacking before he was 'for' it.

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

The hypocrisy just reeks. I've been pointing out since the beginning of this overblown phony scandal that the same people eagerly distributing the stolen CRU emails were freaking out and screaming like banshees when Sarah Palin's email was stolen.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:33:24pm

re: #133 recusancy

I'm not following. People deny the existence of HIV?

People deny that HIV causes AIDS.

204 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:33:31pm

re: #194 celticdragon

Yes, I have heard about that. It hit the news yesterday that albinos in parts of Africa are in fear of their lives after rumors spread that eating the body parts of an albino can give you magical powers. I wish I was making this up.

What the fuck has happened to the 21st Century??

NAIROBI, Kenya — The mistaken belief that albino body parts have magical powers has driven thousands of Africa's albinos into hiding, fearful of losing their lives and limbs to unscrupulous dealers who can make up to $75,000 selling a complete dismembered set.It

Mary Owido, who lacks pigment that gives color to skin, eyes and hair, says she is only comfortable when at work or at home with her husband and children.

"Wherever I go people start talking about me, saying that my legs and hands can fetch a fortune in Tanzania," said Owido, 36, a mother of six. "This kind of talk scares me. I am afraid of going out alone."

[Link: www.google.com...]

It isn't so much the 21st century, as it is the failure of so much of Africa to leave the 14th century and join the modern age. These problems have always been there, festering away quietly, pretty much off everyone's radar. It's the recent attention being paid to them that's different, and welcome, despite the sickening nature of what's being related.

205 Idle Drifter  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:34:10pm

re: #184 Obdicut

There's a long 'folk' tradition that sex with a virgin cures all kinds of things. It used to be syphilis.

People are such bastards.

re: #194 celticdragon

Yes, I have heard about that. It hit the news yesterday that albinos in parts of Africa are in fear of their lives after rumors spread that eating the body parts of an albino can give you magical powers. I wish I was making this up.

What the fuck has happened to the 21st Century??

NAIROBI, Kenya — The mistaken belief that albino body parts have magical powers has driven thousands of Africa's albinos into hiding, fearful of losing their lives and limbs to unscrupulous dealers who can make up to $75,000 selling a complete dismembered set.

Mary Owido, who lacks pigment that gives color to skin, eyes and hair, says she is only comfortable when at work or at home with her husband and children.

"Wherever I go people start talking about me, saying that my legs and hands can fetch a fortune in Tanzania," said Owido, 36, a mother of six. "This kind of talk scares me. I am afraid of going out alone."

[Link: www.google.com...]


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over!

206 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:35:08pm

Thank you all for a very interesting discussion.
I now commit to cool off.

207 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:35:09pm

re: #201 Obdicut

I don't feel that I am. He's saying that distributing condoms increases the transmission rate of AIDS in a population. He is wrong, and it is an incredibly harmful policy that the Catholic church has.

I am no friend of any church (or any mythical thinking) but nope, he is saying the the use of condoms increases sexual activities in a society which in turn could increase the chances of getting STD's. You are making a leap.

208 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:36:01pm

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Well, moving money around doesn't do a thing about CO2.

Does this qualify? The Clean Development Mechanism as described by the Kyoto Protocol was set up to provide a mechanism through which the transfer of money from developed countries to developing countries for certain types of projects, defined by the UN, could be shown to have led to a situation in which greenhouse gas emissions were reduced relative to the situation where there was no such project. The scheme was not perfect, but I believe it worked in many cases.

209 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:36:24pm

re: #189 badger1

I guess you don't want to play? I asked, what data was destroyed by CRU?

210 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:36:29pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

While I wouldn't use as direct a charge as "The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV."

The fact is
1. From 1978 - 2004, Catholics have tripled in Africa.
Your text to link...

2. Catholicism is based on the infallibility and paternity of the Pope. So when you get statements like this:

"The traditional teaching of the church has proven to be the only failsafe way to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids."

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

I think it is reasonable to conclude that the Catholic Church is exasperating the problem of HIV/Aids in Africa.

211 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:36:31pm

re: #204 SixDegrees

It isn't so much the 21st century, as it is the failure of so much of Africa to leave the 14th century and join the modern age. These problems have always been there, festering away quietly, pretty much off everyone's radar. It's the recent attention being paid to them that's different, and welcome, despite the sickening nature of what's being related.

It is the failure of education in those areas to give the people the knowledge base with which to reject these myths. Sort of an extreme example of the way our own education system has fallen down in some respects.

212 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:36:33pm
213 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:37:32pm

re: #148 Charles

Not the existence of HIV -- they deny that HIV is connected to AIDS. One of the main proponents of this dangerous idiocy is Phillip Johnson, the so-called "father" of intelligent design creationism.

I used to have a summer job with the San Francisco AidsWalk. That was when I learned that there is now a break-off ActUp group in SF who deny the HIV-AIDS connection. They were a pain.

214 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:38:23pm

re: #112 celticdragon

Tomorrow, I have to give a PowerPoint on Refrigeration of the western Cordilleran lithosphere during Laramide shallow angle subduction

OT-but it's late enough. Never heard of lithospheric refrigeration, but it sounds interesting.

215 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:38:37pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

I used to have a summer job with the San Francisco AidsWalk. That was when I learned that there is now a break-off ActUp group in SF who deny the HIV-AIDS connection. They were a pain.

Really? Wow.

216 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:38:49pm

re: #210 Jeff In Ohio

While I wouldn't use as direct a charge as "The Catholic church is also highly responsible for spreading disinformation about AIDS in Africa, including that condoms increase the transmission rate of HIV."

The fact is
1. From 1978 - 2004, Catholics have tripled in Africa.
Your text to link...

2. Catholicism is based on the infallibility and paternity of the Pope. So when you get statements like this:

"The traditional teaching of the church has proven to be the only failsafe way to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids."

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

I think it is reasonable to conclude that the Catholic Church is exasperating the problem of HIV/Aids in Africa.

Never said it wasn't... did I?

217 bosforus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:39:01pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

I guess you don't want to play? I asked, what data was destroyed by CRU?

It's impossible to say, it was destroyed!
/

218 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:39:08pm

BTW, Just so you are aware of it. Pres. Obama never really had a chance of accomplishing anything in Copenhagen as he was torpedoed by a member of his own party before he even leaves.

Senator Webb to Obama on Copenhagen:Don't Do Anything Congress Can't Do.

"Dear Mr. President:

I would like to express my concern regarding reports that the Administration may believe it has the unilateral power to commit the government of the United States to certain standards that may be agreed upon at the upcoming United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference of Parties 15 in Copenhagen, Denmark. The phrase “politically binding” has been used.

Although details have not been made available, recent statements by Special Envoy on Climate Change Todd Stern indicate that negotiators may be intending to commit the United States to a nationwide emission reduction program.

As you well know from your time in the Senate, only specific legislation agreed upon in the Congress, or a treaty ratified by the Senate, could actually create such a commitment on behalf of our country.

I would very much appreciate having this matter clarified in advance of the Copenhagen meetings.”

IOW, A. Don't go making promises you can't keep and B. Your stepping on our turf

Full story here.
hteeteepea:fwdslashfwdslashblog.heritage.org/2009/12/01/senator-webb-to-obama-on-copenhagen-don’t-do-anything-congress-can’t-do/

Yes, that was intentional as I believe Charles wouldn't want to give that particular site any traffic. (Pat Buchanan affiliated I believe)

219 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:39:21pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

I am no friend of any church (or any mythical thinking) but nope, he is saying the the use of condoms increases sexual activities in a society which in turn could increase the chances of getting STD's. You are making a leap.

There is absolutely no evidence that using condoms "aggravates" the risk of getting AIDS (which is what the Pope said), and vast amounts of evidence that it protects against AIDS.

And if you investigate a little further, you'll see that many other Catholic officials have said explicitly that condoms make the AIDS problem worse.

In my opinion, this was an absolutely appalling thing for Pope Benedict to say.

220 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:39:31pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

I used to have a summer job with the San Francisco AidsWalk. That was when I learned that there is now a break-off ActUp group in SF who deny the HIV-AIDS connection. They were a pain.

FuctUp?

221 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:39:52pm

re: #208 John Neverbend

Does this qualify? The Clean Development Mechanism as described by the Kyoto Protocol was set up to provide a mechanism through which the transfer of money from developed countries to developing countries for certain types of projects, defined by the UN, could be shown to have led to a situation in which greenhouse gas emissions were reduced relative to the situation where there was no such project. The scheme was not perfect, but I believe it worked in many cases.

Not as cleanly (pardon the pun) as just investing in clean technologies and let the market decide what works best. Anytime you see money flowing from one nation to another with no "goods" returned in favor means it is a scheme to distribute wealth.

I would much rather have all that money flowing into free enterprise and science to create the future than trap us all in our current state...only poorer.

222 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:40:08pm

re: #220 wrenchwench

Funny!

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:40:09pm

re: #159 John Neverbend

Interesting. The only Talmudic words for apostate that I knew were "apikoros" and "min", the former of which sounds as though it's of Greek origin.

It is Greek. From 'epicurean'. 'Mumar' is also used.

224 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:40:20pm

re: #201 Obdicut

I don't feel that I am. He's saying that distributing condoms increases the transmission rate of AIDS in a population. He is wrong, and it is an incredibly harmful policy that the Catholic church has.

Depends. Obviously, the Catholic Church has a long history of objecting to birth control, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. But I do agree that simply tossing handfuls of condoms at people without any accompanying education, particularly in a place like Africa where superstition is rampant, is not a good idea. People pick up the false impression that condoms provide some sort of magical protection, and engage in risky behavior that they wouldn't otherwise. We're talking about people who think eating albinos gives them magical powers; it isn't uncommon for them to think that carrying a condom in your pocket is all the protection you need.

While use of condoms can reduce AIDS, it can't do so in a vacuum. People need to be educated that it's a disease, that it's blood borne, and that a wide variety of activities can aid it's transmission. Air dropping condoms and walking away with a feeling of satisfaction isn't nearly enough, and isn't going to solve anything.

225 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:41:13pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, my mistake. Thought you were looking for clarification. Maybe you can help me and list the things you've never said.

226 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:41:51pm

re: #211 CyanSnowHawk

It is the failure of education in those areas to give the people the knowledge base with which to reject these myths. Sort of an extreme example of the way our own education system has fallen down in some respects.

Exactly. It isn't racial at all, and I can see similar rejection of scientific thought and contempt for "educated elites" happening right here. It wasn't that long ago that the Catholic Church and various hucksters were making a killing off selling "relics" of dead saints in Europe.

227 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:41:55pm

re: #219 Charles

There is absolutely no evidence that using condoms "aggravates" the risk of getting AIDS (which is what the Pope said), and vast amounts of evidence that it protects against AIDS.

And if you investigate a little further, you'll see that many other Catholic officials have said explicitly that condoms make the AIDS problem worse.

In my opinion, this was an absolutely appalling thing for Pope Benedict to say.

I never said it wasn't. You know I am far from a supporter of any of these mythical thinking organizations, I think the church should keep the heck out of it altogether, I just read his comment a little more open ended than others.

228 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:42:39pm

re: #225 Jeff In Ohio

Sorry, my mistake. Thought you were looking for clarification. Maybe you can help me and list the things you've never said.

Just pay attention :)

229 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:43:11pm

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

I am rubber.

230 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:43:20pm

re: #224 SixDegrees

It's true that simply giving people condoms isn't the solution -- but that's not what the Pope said. He said it makes the problem worse.

This is part of the Church's blanket opposition to all forms of birth control, and really has nothing at all to do with AIDS. It's reprehensible, in my opinion.

231 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:43:21pm

re: #187 celticdragon

I have had some heated arguments with a conservative Catholic woman at the Crunchy Con blog regarding this sort of thing. She believes that birth control is evil and hence, anything that the Catholic Church says is evil should also be illegal. She is unapologetically upfront in saying her religious views should and must be enforced by coercive government power.

My father is in regular blog contact with some folks like that. They're very, very intense. And some of them don't believe Benedict is the Real Pope.

232 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:43:54pm

re: #189 badger1

Efforts to quash dissenting views and manipulate the peer-review process are disgusting.

This is my issue with the CRU. I have no problem with peer-review, but when the process is rigged, as it appears to have been here, it puts into question the validity of the argument. If these guys had no problem with defending their work and conclusions, why did they have to rig the system to exclude decent?

233 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:44:11pm

OT - whoa... I just checked, it's 6 degrees (f) here right now, and it's not quite dark yet. Suspect it's gonna be below zero tonight.

234 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:44:14pm

GOES-10 has been deactivated.

NOAA Deactivates GOES-10 after 12 Years of Tracking Storms

NOAA officially deactivated its Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite-10 today after 12 years of service. GOES-10 tracked some of the most memorable tropical cyclones in history, including Hurricane Mitch, which devastated parts of Central America in 1998; and Hurricane Katrina, which ravaged the Gulf Coast in 2005.

NOAA anticipated the end of service for several months and began deactivating GOES-10 yesterday, when it fired the spacecraft’s booster moving the satellite into an orbit approximately 22,186 miles above the Earth. Today the agency finished its third, and final, firing of the booster putting it safely out of commission.

...

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:44:44pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Link to that "fact?"

Ask, and ye shall get a link.

236 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:44:48pm

re: #232 junodavid

This is my issue with the CRU. I have no problem with peer-review, but when the process is rigged, as it appears to have been here, it puts into question the validity of the argument. If these guys had no problem with defending their work and conclusions, why did they have to rig the system to exclude decent?

No process was "rigged," and no data was destroyed.

237 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:45:33pm

re: #234 Gus 802

GOES-10 has been deactivated.

NOAA Deactivates GOES-10 after 12 Years of Tracking Storms

What are those evil scientists trying to hide now???!!1

238 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:45:36pm

re: #234 Gus 802

GOES-10 has been deactivated.

NOAA Deactivates GOES-10 after 12 Years of Tracking Storms

Evidently the are covering something up. Climategate strikes again.

239 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:45:48pm

Ron Paul asks Hillary Clinton if she supports 'Bush Doctrine'

Tea Party!

240 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:46:22pm

re: #237 Charles

What are those evil scientists trying to hide now???!!1

Teh data was deleteded!

//

241 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:46:24pm

re: #236 Charles

No process was "rigged," and no data was destroyed.

How do I keep missing these posts.

242 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:46:43pm

re: #221 brownbagj

Not as cleanly (pardon the pun) as just investing in clean technologies and let the market decide what works best. Anytime you see money flowing from one nation to another with no "goods" returned in favor means it is a scheme to distribute wealth.

I think that the CDM projects, when they were actually legitimate, represented one of the cheapest way possible for those countries that actually needed the resulting credits to buy them, rather than investing in a domestic project. It goes without saying that the idea was to encourage developed countries to invest in the infrastructure development of developing countries.

243 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:46:47pm

re: #232 junodavid

This is my issue with the CRU. I have no problem with peer-review, but when the process is rigged, as it appears to have been here, it puts into question the validity of the argument. If these guys had no problem with defending their work and conclusions, why did they have to rig the system to exclude decent?

How was the process rigged?

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:47:14pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Link to that "fact?"

This as well.

Quite a lot out there.

245 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:47:34pm

After Glenn Beck's dishonest show today about the phony scandal, we're bound to have lots of people showing up repeating his false claims.

246 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:48:07pm

re: #237 Charles

What are those evil scientists trying to hide now???!!1

Anyone know if there's a replacement for this satellite? I remember several years ago one of our geosats went down the tubes, and left us with lousy coverage of the eastern portion of the continent for several years, hampering weather forecasting.

It sounds like this was anticipated, so maybe it isn't a problem.

247 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:48:18pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

OT - whoa... I just checked, it's 6 degrees (f) here right now, and it's not quite dark yet. Suspect it's gonna be below zero tonight.

it's an icy 50 degrees in ABQ...way too cold for me...I have to take a blood thinner and I'm easily chilled now, not the temperature tough guy I used to be

248 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:48:26pm

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

This as well.

Quite a lot out there.

I already found his quote myself 20 comments ago.

249 badger1  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:49:03pm

Charles,

With all due respect, the CRU announced themselves that the raw data was destroyed. Period.

It was an error, as they have admitted.

250 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:49:07pm

re: #212 brownbagj

If I were an albino in Africa and had some money I would buy some colored contact lenses and dye my hair.

Seriously, it is hard to believe that in 2009 this kind of thinking can take over a continent.

Yea, but you'd still have white skin. It's just a shame how little of the word progresses and when they do, they always seems to take the worst instead of the best.

251 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:49:17pm

re: #242 John Neverbend

I think that the CDM projects, when they were actually legitimate,...

they arn't all legitimate???

252 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:01pm

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

Keep up!

re: #210 Jeff In Ohio

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

253 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:01pm

re: #219 Charles

There is absolutely no evidence that using condoms "aggravates" the risk of getting AIDS (which is what the Pope said), and vast amounts of evidence that it protects against AIDS.

And if you investigate a little further, you'll see that many other Catholic officials have said explicitly that condoms make the AIDS problem worse.

In my opinion, this was an absolutely appalling thing for Pope Benedict to say.

Not speaking for the Pope, but you have to hear the silent coda: sex with condoms aggravates AIDS spread as opposed to the Vatican Solution--no sexual contact among the unmarried.

254 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:08pm

re: #245 Charles

After Glenn Beck's lying, dishonest show today about the phony scandal, we're bound to have lots of people showing up repeating his false claims.

Isn't that Beck's primary purpose...to muddy the waters with disinformation?

255 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:11pm

re: #219 Charles

There is absolutely no evidence that using condoms "aggravates" the risk of getting AIDS (which is what the Pope said), and vast amounts of evidence that it protects against AIDS.

And if you investigate a little further, you'll see that many other Catholic officials have said explicitly that condoms make the AIDS problem worse.

In my opinion, this was an absolutely appalling thing for Pope Benedict to say.

It has long been a position of the Catholic Church that making any form of birth control available greatly increases the incentive for sexual activity, thus actually greatly increasing sexual activity. Condoms fit that meme, so while use of a condom during sex provides better protection against AIDS than not using one, the Catholic position is that abstinence is the better protection. IMHO, they are dangerously naive in thinking that, and history has shown that fear of disease has little effect on how many people are having sex.

256 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:14pm

re: #249 badger1

Charles,

With all due respect, the CRU announced themselves that the raw data was destroyed. Period.

It was an error, as they have admitted.

You are wrong.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:15pm

re: #224 SixDegrees

Depends. Obviously, the Catholic Church has a long history of objecting to birth control, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. But I do agree that simply tossing handfuls of condoms at people without any accompanying education, particularly in a place like Africa where superstition is rampant, is not a good idea. People pick up the false impression that condoms provide some sort of magical protection, and engage in risky behavior that they wouldn't otherwise. We're talking about people who think eating albinos gives them magical powers; it isn't uncommon for them to think that carrying a condom in your pocket is all the protection you need.

While use of condoms can reduce AIDS, it can't do so in a vacuum. People need to be educated that it's a disease, that it's blood borne, and that a wide variety of activities can aid it's transmission. Air dropping condoms and walking away with a feeling of satisfaction isn't nearly enough, and isn't going to solve anything.

Which would be great if the Church would back education about disease prevention in combination with condom distribution, but they won't.

258 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:17pm

re: #242 John Neverbend

That could quite possibly be so. The issue is that this issue has been politicized to the point where it is hard to trust those who make economic policies to do the right thing for the environment instead of ulterior motives.

I am ALL FOR a clean planet, less dependence on oil etc. I also truly believe that as in the past, science can set us free or entrap us solely depending on who gets to implement the solution.

259 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:26pm

re: #214 Unakite

Rapid near horizontal subduction of the Fallaron Plate beneath the western margin of the North American Plate effectively chilled the lithosphere and greatly reduced the geothermal gradient between 75 Ma and 45 Ma (Late Cretaceous into the Tertiary). This effectively strengthened the crust while transmitting stress deep into the craton of North America, which resulted in the uplift of the Rocky Mountains. The Fallaron Plate eventually fell away towards the earth's core, and increased magmatism throughout present day Nevada and eastern California resulted in the lithosphere being tremendously reheated and weakened. The weakened crust underwent gravitational collapse (a bit like a block of cheese left out in the sun) and resulted in the basin and range province where crustal extension is shown by huge, normal dip slip fault block mountain ranges.

260 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:37pm

re: #246 SixDegrees

Anyone know if there's a replacement for this satellite? I remember several years ago one of our geosats went down the tubes, and left us with lousy coverage of the eastern portion of the continent for several years, hampering weather forecasting.

It sounds like this was anticipated, so maybe it isn't a problem.

It's technology fun. I remember 15 years ago, to get my own weather maps, I would use a sattelite tracking program to find out when a GEOS was over head, a VHF radio receiver attached to my computer and some software, and download the data stream and the software on my computer would render the map.

Now we linke to the Weather Channel and have maps the world over in seconds.

261 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:55pm

re: #249 badger1

Charles,

With all due respect, the CRU announced themselves that the raw data was destroyed. Period.

It was an error, as they have admitted.

Link?

262 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:50:59pm

re: #251 brookly red

they arn't all legitimate???

Well, let's say that some of the early Chinese HFC-23 destruction projects were considered by some to be "abusive".

263 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:51:05pm

re: #252 Jeff In Ohio

Keep up!

re: #210 Jeff In Ohio

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

re: #248 Walter L. Newton

I already found his quote myself 20 comments ago.

Hey, she's got a system. Be patient.

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:51:11pm

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

I never said it wasn't. You know I am far from a supporter of any of these mythical thinking organizations, I think the church should keep the heck out of it altogether, I just read his comment a little more open ended than others.

Seriously, the Church has screwed up badly in the African AIDS crisis. I hate to say it. But it's true.

265 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:51:56pm

I've had two posts at LGF dealing with this lie that "data was destroyed." There's no excuse for continuing to repeat this falsehood.

Educate yourself, please, instead of just parroting talking points.

266 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:51:58pm

re: #262 John Neverbend

Well, let's say that some of the early Chinese HFC-23 destruction projects were considered by some to be "abusive".

gottcha.

267 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:04pm

re: #246 SixDegrees

Anyone know if there's a replacement for this satellite? I remember several years ago one of our geosats went down the tubes, and left us with lousy coverage of the eastern portion of the continent for several years, hampering weather forecasting.

It sounds like this was anticipated, so maybe it isn't a problem.

It's in the link I posted. GEOS-11 and GEOS-12.

GEOS-13 is in "storage" orbit and will replace GEOS-12.

GEOS-14 is also in orbit.

268 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:21pm

re: #255 CyanSnowHawk

IMHO, they are dangerously naive in thinking that, and history has shown that fear of disease has little effect on how many people are having sex.

One persons native is another's brutal dishonesty.

269 fert  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:26pm

Hey Charles, are you gonna take Frum's advice and take up the right wing's burden?

270 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:30pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Ron Paul asks Hillary Clinton if she supports 'Bush Doctrine'


Tea Party!

Woohoo! Great response from Ms. Clinton!

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:55pm

re: #248 Walter L. Newton

I already found his quote myself 20 comments ago.

Had you found the Napier quote?

272 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:52:56pm

re: #265 Charles

I've had two posts at LGF dealing with this lie that "data was destroyed." There's no excuse for continuing to repeat this falsehood.

Educate yourself, please, instead of just parroting talking points.

But that's like... work and hard and some junk.

273 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:53:13pm

re: #268 Jeff In Ohio

I meant naivete.

274 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:53:14pm

I agree this is a terrible thing to say. The church should put lives first. It puts its own policy and its own existence well ahead of mere life. This is exactly how or why they protect their own pedophile priests ahead of children.

Lets not think this is just about condoms. Call me a cynic if you want-We must remember the totality of the Papal advocacy-Their sexual conservatism is in part enforced by aids- Sex out of wedlock can kill you. Keeping sex as approved only within marriage & for conception ONLY is the policy. If a condom helps you sin without earthly consequence, which of course it does-The Church view is that is a bad, bad thing. Ergo condoms add to THEIR problems as a church with policies to enforce.

275 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:53:32pm

re: #269 fert

Hey Charles, are you gonna take Frum's advice and take up the right wing's burden?

I think David Frum should join me.

276 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:53:51pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Ron Paul asks Hillary Clinton if she supports 'Bush Doctrine'


[Video]Tea Party!

She responded that her personal grooming habits were none of his business.

/Yes I went there!

277 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:53:57pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Which would be great if the Church would back education about disease prevention in combination with condom distribution, but they won't.

You're never going to get the Catholic Church to condone condoms. It's a doctrinal problem for them, and that's not going to change.

There's no reason they should oppose the educational component, however, and I agree that they ought to promote it.

278 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:54:17pm

re: #275 Charles

I think David Frum should join me.

I'd love it if he'd interview you.

279 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:54:19pm

re: #275 Charles

I think David Frum should join me.

Heh! I'm with ya, Charles!

280 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:54:34pm

re: #269 fert

Hey Charles, are you gonna take Frum's advice and take up the right wing's burden?

I tend to think Frum was pushing his book...

281 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:54:43pm

re: #247 albusteve

it's an icy 50 degrees in ABQ...way too cold for me...I have to take a blood thinner and I'm easily chilled now, not the temperature tough guy I used to be

We finally got a good pellet stove installed upstairs, which helps.

282 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:54:58pm

re: #280 wrenchwench

I tend to think Frum was pushing his book...

True.

283 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:55:42pm

Completely OT
An animated web ditty with music, about pasta.


Enjoy. It is silly.

284 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:56:21pm

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

We finally got a good pellet stove installed upstairs, which helps.

tell me you tipped the poor guy...offer him a burrito at least?...pellet stoves are cool when they work properly

285 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:56:42pm

Seriously, Frum is dreaming if he thinks there's any way for someone like me to make a difference in the Republican Party.

They're on the ledge and determined to jump. All you can do at this point is get out of the way.

286 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:56:58pm

re: #232 junodavid

re: #249 badger1

Why can't either of you two link me to information about the "destroyed" data, since you keep pushing that meme?

287 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:56:59pm

re: #280 wrenchwench

I tend to think Frum was pushing his book...

I don't know if that's such a bad thing. Frum thinks the GOP needs to get away from social issues.

288 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:57:02pm

re: #276 CyanSnowHawk

She responded that her personal grooming habits were none of his business.

/Yes I went there!

LMAO!

289 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:57:16pm

re: #285 Charles

It will be a big splat.

290 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:57:24pm

re: #267 Gus 802

It's in the link I posted. GEOS-11 and GEOS-12.

GEOS-13 is in "storage" orbit and will replace GEOS-12.

GEOS-14 is also in orbit.

OK, good to hear. I remember after the failure I mentioned that someone finally realized that these weather geosats were a national asset that needed to be maintained with enough foresight to prevent such blind spots. Sounds like they've got that part down, anyway.

291 lrsshadow  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:57:41pm

I have to disagree with the excuse. I am currently an expert witness on a civil case and they are using the emails from the parties as part of the evidence including my own over a period of three years. There is some truth that you could cherry pick a few email to twist things a bit, but even so they do paint a pretty good light of what happened, when, and why.

I don't buy the whole "if they only looked at a few emails, then" excuse. Doesn't pass the smell test.

I have not had much time to look at the email's themselves, but either way I don't think it really helps either side in the debate on global warming. Obviously the opinions of a few people are not the opinions of the thousands who are on each side of this issue.

To me this is just another distraction from the debate itself.

292 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:57:49pm

re: #284 albusteve

tell me you tipped the poor guy...offer him a burrito at least?...pellet stoves are cool when they work properly

DOn't I know, you remember I spent a month taking the last NEW one apart and putting it back together, over and over and finally sent it back to Home Depot.

293 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:58:28pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

I don't know if that's such a bad thing. Frum thinks the GOP needs to get away from social issues.

I'm starting to think it would be easier to reform the Democratic Party...

294 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:58:45pm

re: #224 SixDegrees

I reject the idea that condoms make people engage in risky behavior they wouldn't otherwise. I have never, ever seen a study that showed increase sexual activity directly with the availability of condoms.

re: #277 SixDegrees

You're never going to get the Catholic Church to condone condoms. It's a doctrinal problem for them, and that's not going to change.

There's no reason they should oppose the educational component, however, and I agree that they ought to promote it.

They've changed doctrine before, they can do it again. Their current doctrine bears little resemblance to the doctrine at the time of St. Thomas Moore. If they can stop torturing people to death for reading the bible in English, they can stop telling people lies about condom distribution.

295 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:59:00pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

I don't know if that's such a bad thing. Frum thinks the GOP needs to get away from social issues.

Considering Frum used to be part of the "It's okay to throw gays into prison for buttsecks" crowd...I guess he has come a long way. Maybe.

296 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:59:13pm

BBIAB

297 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:59:30pm

re: #291 lrsshadow

I have to disagree with the excuse. I am currently an expert witness on a civil case and they are using the emails from the parties as part of the evidence including my own over a period of three years. There is some truth that you could cherry pick a few email to twist things a bit, but even so they do paint a pretty good light of what happened, when, and why.

You don't see a vast difference between stealing emails from a private server and deliberately selecting the ones that create the worst impression, and emails used in a court case to determine facts?

Ooohkay.

298 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #275 Charles

I think David Frum should join me.

Agreed.

299 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:59:50pm

re: #259 celticdragon

Rapid near horizontal subduction of the Fallaron Plate beneath the western margin of the North American Plate effectively chilled the lithosphere and greatly reduced the geothermal gradient between 75 Ma and 45 Ma (Late Cretaceous into the Tertiary). This effectively strengthened the crust while transmitting stress deep into the craton of North America, which resulted in the uplift of the Rocky Mountains. The Fallaron Plate eventually fell away towards the earth's core, and increased magmatism throughout present day Nevada and eastern California resulted in the lithosphere being tremendously reheated and weakened. The weakened crust underwent gravitational collapse (a bit like a block of cheese left out in the sun) and resulted in the basin and range province where crustal extension is shown by huge, normal dip slip fault block mountain ranges.

As I was driving across the Rockies last Sunday, I was wondering about the process that created them. That's just a little freaky that you answered it on the first day I spent any significant time here since then.

300 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:03pm

re: #285 Charles

Seriously, Frum is dreaming if he thinks there's any way for someone like me to make a difference in the Republican Party.

They're on the ledge and determined to jump. All you can do at this point is get out of the way.

The right doesn't even listen to David Frum anymore. Most of them consider him a RINO since last year. His most popular venue is Bloggingheads TV which no so ironically is listed as a left wing blog at Hot Air right where LGF was spitefully placed by Ed Morrisey.

Interesting search note. David Frum" site:gop.com Google search reveals one hit. That's how much interest the GOP has with David Frum. That's the GOPs loss.

301 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:05pm

re: #291 lrsshadow

I have to disagree with the excuse. I am currently an expert witness on a civil case and they are using the emails from the parties as part of the evidence including my own over a period of three years. There is some truth that you could cherry pick a few email to twist things a bit, but even so they do paint a pretty good light of what happened, when, and why.

I don't buy the whole "if they only looked at a few emails, then" excuse. Doesn't pass the smell test.

I have not had much time to look at the email's themselves, but either way I don't think it really helps either side in the debate on global warming. Obviously the opinions of a few people are not the opinions of the thousands who are on each side of this issue.

To me this is just another distraction from the debate itself.

on TV the one e-mail that says "I did it" is enough...

302 AtadOFF  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:13pm

re: #66 Charles

I guess I just wanted to put the point across that their stand on developing alternative energy was a business decision and not a conscientious one.

303 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:25pm

re: #293 wrenchwench

I'm starting to think it would be easier to reform the Democratic Party...

Good luck with that. A third party would be easier.

304 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:31pm

By the way, people, do you know how (hic!) you can tell when an old Roman (haec!) is drunk?

Hoc!

305 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:00:31pm

re: #293 wrenchwench

Or build up the Modern Whig Party.
Modern Whig video.

306 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:01:08pm

re: #294 Obdicut

I reject the idea that condoms make people engage in risky behavior they wouldn't otherwise. I have never, ever seen a study that showed increase sexual activity directly with the availability of condoms.

re: #277 SixDegrees

They've changed doctrine before, they can do it again. Their current doctrine bears little resemblance to the doctrine at the time of St. Thomas Moore. If they can stop torturing people to death for reading the bible in English, they can stop telling people lies about condom distribution.

Doctrinal changes need to flow from...doctrine. They're not going to happen because some outside the Church says "You have to change!"

Provide some doctrinal basis for them to work from, and maybe you'll see the change you desire. Otherwise, not.

307 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:01:16pm

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

DOn't I know, you remember I spent a month taking the last NEW one apart and putting it back together, over and over and finally sent it back to Home Depot.

that's why they call you Bulldog Newton

308 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:01:51pm

re: #294 Obdicut

They make a point of changing very, very slowly.

309 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:01:54pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

Around here, being an independent gets traction with both parties.

310 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:03:41pm

re: #273 Jeff In Ohio

I meant naivete.

Kinda figured that.

While the Church is correct that abstinence is very effective at reducing the transmission of HIV during sex, I can't agree that not providing condoms will greatly reduce the incidence of sex.

311 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:03:53pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

Are you starting to fall under Ojoe's spell? :-)

312 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:04:07pm

re: #299 CyanSnowHawk

As I was driving across the Rockies last Sunday, I was wondering about the process that created them. That's just a little freaky that you answered it on the first day I spent any significant time here since then.

LOL! Cool!

The Laramide Orogeny is the name of the event that formed the Rockies. Frictional coupling between the Fallaron slab and North America generated massive crustal shortening (like tens to hundreds of kilometers) as giant low angle thrust faults stacked up sheets of rock on top of one another. My structures class is about over, and I have absolutely loved it!

313 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:05:24pm

re: #305 Ojoe

Weekly persistence ding.

314 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:05:55pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

I think that Church doctrine generally changes in response to external politics, no in response to actual theological debate.

315 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:03pm

re: #210 Jeff In Ohio

Exasperating /= Exascerbating ;)

316 lrsshadow  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:15pm

re: #297 Charles

not exactly what I am saying, my point it that even if you only take 12 emails out of 1000 that a person wrote, those 12 emails are still written by that individual and do demonstrate an opinion that can stand on its own. The excuse of "oh they only picked 12 out of 1000, therefore those 12 aren't really saying what they say." doesn't float with me. What if that person only wrote 12 email out of 1000 on the subject we are talking about? What if all the rest were just personal stuff and jokes? Then would those 12 paint a complete picture.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the "stealing" of the emails. Hell the anti-military left has been stealing all kinds of state secretes and printing them in the papers with out any prosecution from the federal government. With that precedent how could stealing emails be considered anything other then "printing the truth."

317 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:19pm

re: #312 celticdragon

LOL! Cool!

The Laramide Orogeny is the name of the event that formed the Rockies. Frictional coupling between the Fallaron slab and North America generated massive crustal shortening (like tens to hundreds of kilometers) as giant low angle thrust faults stacked up sheets of rock on top of one another. My structures class is about over, and I have absolutely loved it!

orographic uplifting...and they are still rising, but your words make it sound alot more fanviy

318 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:24pm

re: #310 CyanSnowHawk

Kinda figured that.

While the Church is correct that abstinence is very effective at reducing the transmission of HIV during sex, I can't agree that not providing condoms will greatly reduce the incidence of sex.

FTFY, You can't have both

319 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:27pm

re: #259 celticdragon

Cool, thanks. Don't get to keep up with real geology much anymore. Being from VA, my experience is mostly with Appalachian geology. Rockies are babies (or at least teenagers) :).

320 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:06:57pm

re: #315 ausador

Exasperating /= Exascerbating ;)

You naughty, naughty boy!

321 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:08:05pm

re: #310 CyanSnowHawk

And pouring water on your head will make it wet! Sorry, busting your chops. My kid goes to Catholic school and the things I perceive as both doctrine and tradition, as a non-Catholic and non-believer, leave me alternately scratching my head and banging it on the wall. That absolution thing sure is a neat trick!

322 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:08:54pm

re: #320 celticdragon

You naughty, naughty boy!

You'll go BLIND!!

323 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:03pm

re: #316 lrsshadow

not exactly what I am saying, my point it that even if you only take 12 emails out of 1000 that a person wrote, those 12 emails are still written by that individual and do demonstrate an opinion that can stand on its own. The excuse of "oh they only picked 12 out of 1000, therefore those 12 aren't really saying what they say." doesn't float with me. What if that person only wrote 12 email out of 1000 on the subject we are talking about? What if all the rest were just personal stuff and jokes? Then would those 12 paint a complete picture.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the "stealing" of the emails. Hell the anti-military left has been stealing all kinds of state secretes and printing them in the papers with out any prosecution from the federal government. With that precedent how could stealing emails be considered anything other then "printing the truth."

I'm sure you really don't believe this childish insinuation...on what principle will you draw the line against theft...a burglary of your own goods?

324 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:13pm

re: #319 Unakite

Cool, thanks. Don't get to keep up with real geology much anymore. Being from VA, my experience is mostly with Appalachian geology. Rockies are babies (or at least teenagers) :).

True. I had a three day field problem in Smoky Mntn Natl Park in October in my structures class.

I got an A on my paper and stratigraphic column :)

325 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:34pm

re: #320 celticdragon

Worse I done mispelt it to! /
Exacerbating no (s)
PIMF

326 jgold  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:40pm

Charles- with regard to the 'ClimateGate" story you remind me of Leslie Nielsen at the end of this clip

327 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:52pm

re: #316 lrsshadow


I don't think there is anything wrong with the "stealing" of the emails. Hell the anti-military left has been stealing all kinds of state secretes and printing them in the papers with out any prosecution from the federal government. With that precedent how could stealing emails be considered anything other then "printing the truth."

That's some mighty fine logic you've got there, Lou.

328 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:09:56pm

re: #315 ausador

Exasperating /= Exascerbating ;)

How about when the exacerbation is exasperating? Where's Cato, I need a down ding!

329 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:10:26pm

I think the people are interested in some fiscal sanity, personal liberty and national security, and a party that could put together a platform on this foundation could do some serious winning on election day.

330 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:10:33pm

re: #325 ausador

Worse I done mispelt it to! /
Exacerbating no (s)
PIMF

LOL!

Not enough blood going to correct head??

331 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:11:04pm

re: #316 lrsshadow

"I don't think there is anything wrong with the "stealing" of the emails. Hell the anti-military left has been stealing all kinds of state secretes and printing them in the papers with out any prosecution from the federal government. With that precedent how could stealing emails be considered anything other then "printing the truth.""

Theft is theft. Regardless of the reason. I wonder if you would feel the same if your home was broken into and your personal property taken just so the "truth" could be printed/exposed

332 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:11:44pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

I think the people are interested in some fiscal sanity, personal liberty and national security, and a party that could put together a platform on this foundation could do some serious winning on election day.

YESSS. You are very right Sharmuta.

333 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:12:15pm

re: #236 Charles

No process was "rigged," and no data was destroyed.

Sorry for the long delay.
By "rigged", my understanding is they threatened to boycot journals/have their editors fired that published articles critical to climate change. IF TRUE, this would have a chilling effect on journals that wanted to continue to publish climate change articles, since they would no longer receive the most prestigous articles since their crediblity was questioned. I'm not saying anything about the actual data, only the peer review process. And, as I said, if true, that raises many questions in my mind.

334 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:12:23pm

I'm out for a bit to make dinner. Have fun!

335 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:12:25pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

I think the people are interested in some fiscal sanity, personal liberty and national security, and a party that could put together a platform on this foundation could do some serious winning on election day.

same old message, a fine and ageless idea...it's not new material the GOP needs, it's to go back to the simple three legged stool

336 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:13:36pm

re: #335 albusteve

same old message, a fine and ageless idea...it's not new material the GOP needs, it's to go back to the simple three legged stool

As opposed to their current status of two legged tools.

337 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:14:06pm

re: #321 Jeff In Ohio

And pouring water on your head will make it wet! Sorry, busting your chops. My kid goes to Catholic school and the things I perceive as both doctrine and tradition, as a non-Catholic and non-believer, leave me alternately scratching my head and banging it on the wall. That absolution thing sure is a neat trick!

I went to Catholic school. I'm quite familiar with the doctrine and tradition. I'm also a practicing atheist now, much to the chagrin of my parents that sent me to those schools.

338 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:14:08pm

OT but funny : Fox News poll on 2012 voter preferences for the GOP leadership has Palin at 70%, Romney at 60% and Huckabee at 63%...

339 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:14:24pm

re: #336 brownbagj

As opposed to their current status of two legged tools.

not too shabby there...

340 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:15:07pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

I think the people are interested in some fiscal sanity, personal liberty and national security, and a party that could put together a platform on this foundation could do some serious winning on election day.

I sooo agree. But it seems that anyone who suguests that gets burned for other, usually personal issues... *sigh*

341 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:15:32pm

re: #335 albusteve

same old message, a fine and ageless idea...it's not new material the GOP needs, it's to go back to the simple three legged stool

Unfortunately, One of those legs, sanity (all types), has been cut away by the religious right. Thus the stool falls over.

342 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:15:33pm

re: #339 albusteve

Thanks. I am here all week. Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress!

343 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:15:37pm

re: #336 brownbagj

As opposed to their current status of two legged tools.

Well done! :)

344 fert  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:16:51pm

re: #333 junodavid

There's this certain scientist I know whose resume is quite good enough for him to be in the National Academy of Sciences. Too bad a Nobel Laureate's cockblocking this scientist from entering the Academy. Doesn't keep this certain scientist from publishing and publishing pretty well. I think you overestimate what the effect of a couple (even leaders in the field) scientists can do to someone's publishing record.

345 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:16:53pm

re: #318 Bubblehead II

FTFY, You can't have both

As "abstinence" increases, "having sex" approaches zero, thus "transmitting HIV during sex" also approaches zero. I stated it that way to exclude the other transmission vectors that do not rely on sexual activity.

346 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:09pm

re: #338 Jimmah

OT but funny : Fox News poll on 2012 voter preferences for the GOP leadership has Palin at 70%, Romney at 60% and Huckabee at 63%...

Now that Huckabee's dead in the water I'm pretty sure where that demographic will flock.

347 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:10pm

re: #329 Sharmuta

I think the people are interested in some fiscal sanity, personal liberty and national security, and a party that could put together a platform on this foundation could do some serious winning on election day.

That is the ticket. Now what's all this "stool" talk?

348 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:17pm

I wish I could upding a few folks in this thread, but I have yet to reach the bar. Trying though! Tonight is the first night I have started really posting, but have read this site for years.

349 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:19pm

re: #286 Walter L. Newton

re: #249 badger1

Why can't either of you two link me to information about the "destroyed" data, since you keep pushing that meme?

I never said data was destroyed.
(and I cross my 7's and Z's too)

350 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:35pm

re: #312 celticdragon

LOL! Cool!

The Laramide Orogeny is the name of the event that formed the Rockies. Frictional coupling between the Fallaron slab and North America generated massive crustal shortening (like tens to hundreds of kilometers) as giant low angle thrust faults stacked up sheets of rock on top of one another. My structures class is about over, and I have absolutely loved it!

Low angle thrust faults are responsible for a lot of structures in the Appalachians, too (but you would expect that on a collisional plate margin).

Anyone want to debate the science?
//having fun, just kidding.

351 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:18:35pm

re: #326 jgold

IOW you would rather hide your opinions on the basis of the ending of a video clip.

352 Irish Rose  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:18:46pm

Good evening lizards.

Sharmuta, have you stopped checking your inbox?

353 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:19:00pm

re: #317 albusteve

orographic uplifting...and they are still rising, but your words make it sound alot more fanviy

It's the frictional coupling that does it.

354 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:19:30pm

Newt Gingrich is jumping on the Climategate smear bandwagon now as well :


Newt Gingrich -- whom numerous media figures have previously labeled the Republican Party's "idea man" -- recently posted an article on his website echoing other right-wing figures in advancing the dubious claims that the so-called "Climategate" emails stolen from the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia indicate that climate scientists have attempted "to manipulate data sets in order to show warming trends" while trying to "suppress" research skeptical of global warming, and that the CRU "destroyed its original raw data" years ago. But Gingrich's claims are based on outlandish distortions and misrepresentations of the contents of the stolen emails, as well as a misleading report on the CRU's data, which greatly undermine his smears.

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

355 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:19:50pm

re: #350 Unakite

Low angle thrust faults are responsible for a lot of structures in the Appalachians, too (but you would expect that on a collisional plate margin).

Anyone want to debate the science?
//having fun, just kidding.

I don't believe it. I must see this reproduced in a life size lab.

356 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:20:05pm

re: #314 Obdicut

You're welcome to your beliefs. I don't think they're borne out by facts, however.

357 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:20:20pm

re: #350 Unakite

Low angle thrust faults are responsible for a lot of structures in the Appalachians, too (but you would expect that on a collisional plate margin).

Anyone want to debate the science?
//having fun, just kidding.

I don't get your thrust, but it's probably not your fault.

358 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:21:37pm

re: #353 Unakite

It's the frictional coupling that does it.

Stop that. The Pope doesn't like frictional coupling.

/I tried to resist that joke, really I did.

359 Unakite  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:22:09pm

re: #324 celticdragon

True. I had a three day field problem in Smoky Mntn Natl Park in October in my structures class.

I got an A on my paper and stratigraphic column :)

Hope you had a good time. Went on vacation with the kids to the Smokies a couple of times. They wanted to do all the fun stuff (putt putt, etc.) and I just wanted to drive around the mountains. Did you get to Cade's Cove (window through the thrust fault)?

360 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:22:17pm

re: #357 Decatur Deb

I don't get your thrust, but it's probably not your fault.

*groan*

361 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:23:00pm

re: #356 SixDegrees

You're welcome to your beliefs. I don't think they're borne out by facts, however.

Well, obviously.

The Catholic church changed its doctrinal position on, for example, reading the bible in English due to political pressure from outside-- namely, from Protestantism. You can directly tie many Catholic doctrinal changes to political pressure.

362 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:23:01pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Now that Huckabee's dead in the water I'm pretty sure where that demographic will flock.

I am not a Huck fan but I don't see him dead in the water... we shall see.

363 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:23:12pm

re: #349 junodavid

I never said data was destroyed.
(and I cross my 7's and Z's too)

Soory, but what do you mean their process was "rigged?"

364 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:23:26pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Now that Huckabee's dead in the water I'm pretty sure where that demographic will flock.

Yep - if Fox's figures are right, Palin could end up romping home with a stonking 133% of the vote.

365 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:23:39pm

re: #354 Jimmah

Hopefully that darn overzealous staffer has struck again.

366 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:24:18pm

re: #364 Jimmah

Yep - if Fox's figures are right, Palin could end up romping home with a stonking 133% of the vote.

It is the "Chicago" method of voting early and voting often.

367 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:24:34pm

re: #364 Jimmah

Yep - if Fox's figures are right, Palin could end up romping home with a stonking 133% of the vote.

not unless ACORN flips...

368 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:24:56pm

re: #364 Jimmah

Yep - if Fox's figures are right, Palin could end up romping home with a stonking 133% of the vote.

Almost forgot. There's that too.

Duh-e!

369 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:24:59pm

re: #345 CyanSnowHawk

I will accept that that is what you were trying to say, but I also hope you can see it from my point of view as well.

RE:310

"Kinda figured that.

While the Church is correct that abstinence is very effective at reducing the transmission of HIV during sex, I can't agree that not providing condoms will greatly reduce the incidence of sex."

How can you have abstinence and sex at the same time?

Just tickled my funny bone is all.

370 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:25:03pm

re: #353 Unakite

It's the frictional coupling that does it.

There's frictional coupling in Virginia, but less in KY.

371 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:26:33pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

There's frictional coupling in Virginia, but less in KY.

It is all relative in Alabama.

Hey I grew up there, so I kid because I love. :)

372 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:26:50pm

re: #344 fert

There's this certain scientist I know whose resume is quite good enough for him to be in the National Academy of Sciences. Too bad a Nobel Laureate's cockblocking this scientist from entering the Academy. Doesn't keep this certain scientist from publishing and publishing pretty well. I think you overestimate what the effect of a couple (even leaders in the field) scientists can do to someone's publishing record.

Well, see, I don't know the extent of all this. That is why this type of forum, for me, is so valuable. So maybe that point is so much ado about nothing.

373 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:27:27pm

At last! I make it before an AGW thread dies, then I see Decatur Deb's joke...

374 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:27:37pm

re: #347 BruceKelly

That is the ticket. Now what's all this "stool" talk?

fiscal responsibility
strong security
less taxation

375 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:28:29pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

There's frictional coupling in Virginia, but less in KY.

and non in NM that I know of

376 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:29:10pm

re: #359 Unakite

Hope you had a good time. Went on vacation with the kids to the Smokies a couple of times. They wanted to do all the fun stuff (putt putt, etc.) and I just wanted to drive around the mountains. Did you get to Cade's Cove (window through the thrust fault)?

Yes!!!

Awesome place, and you can really see the Great Smoky Mountain Fault. You can damned near put your hand on it. Unbelievable to see the Cryptozoic Metcalf Phyllite actually overthrust onto the Ordivician Joneboro Limestone. at Whiteoak Sink in the window.

377 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:29:46pm

re: #363 Walter L. Newton

Soory, but what do you mean their process was "rigged?"

It was reported early on in the scandal that some noted scientists were threatening to withhold papers from some journals if the editors allowed AGW dissenting papers to be published.

This is what I heard on some news stations as I was driving out to San Antonio on Nov. 23rd. I haven't had a chance yet to look through the emails to see if it was being truthfully reported. That is the nature of the rigging that I heard about.

378 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:30:40pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

There's frictional coupling in Virginia, but less in KY.

OMG what have I started??

379 avanti  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:30:40pm

Bank of America to pay back taxpayers 45 billion in a few days.
link...

380 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:31:10pm

re: #375 albusteve

and non in NM that I know of

Nons aren't into coupling.

381 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:31:18pm

re: #376 celticdragon

My sister was married in that little church in Cade's Cove.

382 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:31:54pm

re: #378 celticdragon

OMG what have I started??

/just wait till we post your e-mails...

383 junodavid  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:31:55pm

re: #363 Walter L. Newton

Soory, but what do you mean their process was "rigged?"


Outlined it earlier. I've got to leave now so don't have time to point you to it. Maybe post #333?

384 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:32:16pm

re: #355 brownbagj

I don't believe it. I must see this reproduced in a life size lab.

I would pay to see that.

385 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:32:27pm

re: #378 celticdragon

OMG what have I started??

Never leave an unguarded opening.

386 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:32:57pm

re: #381 Jeff In Ohio

My sister was married in that little church in Cade's Cove.

Beautiful place!

387 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:33:14pm

re: #384 celticdragon

I would pay to see that.

I hear it's more boring than watching the grass grow.

388 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:33:21pm

re: #377 CyanSnowHawk

It was reported early on in the scandal that some noted scientists were threatening to withhold papers from some journals if the editors allowed AGW dissenting papers to be published.

This is what I heard on some news stations as I was driving out to San Antonio on Nov. 23rd. I haven't had a chance yet to look through the emails to see if it was being truthfully reported. That is the nature of the rigging that I heard about.

I know what you are talking about, I was just curious as to what junodavid was referencing (which he/she hasn't answered yet).

389 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:33:32pm

re: #382 brookly red

/just wait till we post your e-mails...

Oh Noooeeesss!

390 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:34:26pm

re: #379 avanti

Bank of America to pay back taxpayers 45 billion in a few days.
link...

Chafing under the restrictions apparently. Who could have seen that coming?

Oh yeah, anybody with half a brain.

391 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:34:29pm

re: #378 celticdragon

Don't know. Just sit back and watch it evolve. It may turn into a boob thread or worse.

392 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:00pm

re: #379 avanti

Bank of America to pay back taxpayers 45 billion in a few days.
link...

Bank of America Corp. said Wednesday it plans to repay its $45 billion in government bailout funds in the next few days, a move that will help the troubled bank recruit a new CEO.

*Racer X scrambles to update resume*

393 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:03pm

re: #387 CyanSnowHawk

I hear it's more boring than watching the grass grow.

Not if you make it into a smash the world motion picture where 99.999998% of the Earth's population dies horribly in the space of 16 hours.

394 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:21pm

re: #385 Decatur Deb

Never leave an unguarded opening.

Or somebody might try some frictional coupling.

395 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:33pm

re: #380 Decatur Deb

Nons aren't into coupling.

poor nons...don't noes what their missin

396 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:49pm

re: #361 Obdicut

Well, obviously.

The Catholic church changed its doctrinal position on, for example, reading the bible in English due to political pressure from outside-- namely, from Protestantism. You can directly tie many Catholic doctrinal changes to political pressure.

Uh - English translations of the Bible date back to at least the 7th century. The change to recitation of the Mass in local languages rather than Latin is a result of Vatican II, in the 1960s.

I think you're once again being overly simplistic.

397 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:35:59pm

re: #379 avanti

Bank of America to pay back taxpayers 45 billion in a few days.
link...

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

398 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:36:32pm

re: #394 CyanSnowHawk

Or somebody might try some frictional coupling.

Sans capot.

399 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:00pm

re: #397 brookly red

Nothing. In fact you will pay more. Seriously

400 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:03pm

re: #391 Bubblehead II

Don't know. Just sit back and watch it evolve. It may turn into a boob thread or worse.

Boobies?

There is always these boobies...

[Link: animals.nationalgeographic.com...]

401 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:26pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

$15.00

But there's a $15.00 handling fee.

We are talking Bank of America.

/

402 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:29pm

re: #395 albusteve

poor nons...don't noes what their missin

"Noes" are their mission.

403 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:58pm

re: #399 Bubblehead II

Nothing. In fact you will pay more. Seriously

No shit.

404 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:37:59pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

goofy frickin statement, pay back taxpayers...you be jack shitless

405 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:38:03pm

English fail. Substitute ""are for "is"..

406 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:38:04pm

re: #393 celticdragon

Not if you make it into a smash the world motion picture where 99.999998% of the Earth's population dies horribly in the space of 16 hours.

Mrs. Hawk will buy that on Blu-Ray and quickly turn it off every time I walk into the room. (Like I do with my porn when she walks in.)

407 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:38:13pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

Grab your ankles and tell me how much you can take.

408 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:38:29pm

re: #333 junodavid

Sorry for the long delay.
By "rigged", my understanding is they threatened to boycot journals/have their editors fired that published articles critical to climate change.

No, this is not true. The part about threatening to boycott journals (they never actually did it, by the way) was not simply because the journals published "articles critical to climate change."

It's because the articles in question were NOT properly reviewed, and were full of the usual deceptive talking points. The CRU scientists were pissed off about this, and I would have been too.

409 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:04pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

Let's see. $45 billion. 138 million tax payers in the US. Assume equal amounts paid to each taxpayer...about $326.09.

410 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:18pm

re: #401 Gus 802

Bank of America charges you $5.00 to cash your paycheck. It's a subtle extortion to force you to get an account with them. When you put it in your account elsewhere they get the float interest overnight on all those hundreds of billions. What a screw job.

411 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:26pm

Arguing with idiots...
Jesse Ventura Walks Off The Opie & Anthony Show

(NSFW language) Here's how you handle lunatics.

412 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:35pm

re: #396 SixDegrees

Uh - English translations of the Bible date back to at least the 7th century. The change to recitation of the Mass in local languages rather than Latin is a result of Vatican II, in the 1960s.

I think you're once again being overly simplistic.

What did the synod of clergy at Oxford in 1408 decide about the legality of reading the bible in English?

413 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:44pm

re: #406 CyanSnowHawk

Mrs. Hawk will buy that on Blu-Ray and quickly turn it off every time I walk into the room. (Like I do with my porn when she walks in.)

;)

Heheheheh!

414 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:49pm

re: #399 Bubblehead II

Did you adjust your W-2 after the Obama "tax break". Told them to take an additional $20.00 out each pay check. Hope to hell it was enough.

415 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:53pm

re: #400 celticdragon

My wife refused to believe I hadn't made up that bird.

416 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:39:57pm

re: #407 SixDegrees

Grab your ankles and tell me how much you can take.

actually I am mad as hell & I can't take anymore.

417 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:40:20pm

re: #402 Decatur Deb

"Noes" are their mission.

the Missionary Mission

418 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:40:39pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

There's a kelp farm in some Congressman's midwestern district that needs it more than you.

419 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:40:52pm

re: #409 John Neverbend

Let's see. $45 billion. 138 million tax payers in the US. Assume equal amounts paid to each taxpayer...about $326.09.

I want mine in gold.

420 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:41:31pm

re: #417 albusteve

the Missionary Mission

Now I understand your position.

421 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:41:43pm

re: #411 Killgore Trout

Arguing with idiots...
Jesse Ventura Walks Off The Opie & Anthony Show

[Video]

(NSFW language) Here's how you handle lunatics.

If more people treated raving morons like Ventura that way, we wouldn't have to put up with so much of their crap.

422 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:41:44pm

re: #419 brookly red

I want mine in gold.

That'll get you about a quarter ounce now.

423 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:42:13pm

re: #412 Obdicut

Like I said - you're suffering from tunnel vision.

424 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:42:27pm

re: #415 Decatur Deb

My wife refused to believe I hadn't made up that bird.

I still can't quite believe it myself. No doubt named by a horny English biologist who had been at sea for two years with rum and randy seame...er...chaps!

425 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:42:36pm

re: #420 Decatur Deb

Now I understand your position.

It really is the only official position to take.

426 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #422 CyanSnowHawk

That'll get you about a quarter ounce now.

hand it over.

427 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:43:14pm

re: #421 Charles

If more people treated raving morons like Ventura that way, we wouldn't have to put up with so much of their crap.

"lil Jim Norton (the bald guy) sure has a set of balls. I love that clip.

428 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:43:24pm

re: #426 brookly red

hand it over.

Hands off my nuggets!

429 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:43:45pm

re: #427 Killgore Trout

"lil Jim Norton (the bald guy) sure has a set of balls. I love that clip.

He's pretty funny.

To think, Ventura was a governor.

430 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:44:19pm

re: #420 Decatur Deb

Now I understand your position.

are you dogging the subject?

431 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:44:21pm

re: #401 Gus 802

$15.00

But there's a $15.00 handling fee.

We are talking Bank of America.

/

You just reminded me of Louis CK.

"Look, I'm not being broke just to fuck with you..."

432 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:07pm

re: #377 CyanSnowHawk

Close to true, but exaggerated and taken out of context. The papers in question had already been debunked and proven wrong before they were published, and the fact that the papers were somehow getting through peer review and being published anyway cast serious doubt on the quality of that magazine.

433 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:08pm

re: #429 Gus 802

He's pretty funny.

To think, Ventura was a governor.

It's such an embarrassment that he got elected.

434 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:10pm

re: #425 brownbagj

It really is the only official position to take.

It has the Nihil Obstat.

435 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:11pm

re: #430 albusteve

are you dogging the subject?

What is the over/under on your position?

436 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:33pm

re: #429 Gus 802

He's pretty funny.

To think, Ventura was a governor.

What is up with Minnesota? This place elected Bachmann, Ventura, and Franken...

That being said, Franken at least seems to be a pretty serious policy wonk and my old state elected Bill Bradley who was best known for throwing a ball through a circle and he turned out alright.

437 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:45:41pm

re: #412 Obdicut

What did the synod of clergy at Oxford in 1408 decide about the legality of reading the bible in English?

Wasn't that on Jeopardy the other night?

438 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:46:04pm

re: #429 Gus 802

He's pretty funny.

To think, Ventura was a governor.


He was better in Predator.

439 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:46:19pm

re: #435 brownbagj

What is the over/under on your position?

I can't top that.

440 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:46:32pm

re: #436 Cineaste

What is up with Minnesota? This place elected Bachmann, Ventura, and Franken...

That being said, Franken at least seems to be a pretty serious policy wonk and my old state elected Bill Bradley who was best known for throwing a ball through a circle and he turned out alright.

Bill Bradly is a Rhodes Scholar, I believe

441 fert  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:46:33pm

re: #429 Gus 802

Always makes me want to visit Minnesota just to see what the constituents are really like. I mean, Ventura, Bachmann, etc?

442 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:46:46pm

The emails, although looking incriminating, are not the most important part of the leak/hack.

The Harry's File stuff is far more important. It shows beyond peradventure that the programming at CRU was crap. End of. Period. Full stop.

And if the programming was crap, the CRU's conclusions derived from such programming were untrustworthy. And anyone who says that the CRU's work is not a main driver of the whole AGW theory is telling porkies !

The "Nontroversy" ain't going away any time soon.

443 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:47:26pm

re: #438 John Neverbend

He was better in Predator.

I think that was another governer...

444 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:47:43pm

re: #411 Killgore Trout

Arguing with idiots...
Jesse Ventura Walks Off The Opie & Anthony Show

Former governor of Minnesota.

Caligula's horse looks better every election.

445 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:47:47pm

re: #440 albusteve

Bill Bradly is a Rhodes Scholar, I believe

You are correct.

446 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:48:17pm

re: #443 brookly red

I think that was another governer...

The were both in Predator.

447 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:48:25pm

re: #432 Gelly

Close to true, but exaggerated and taken out of context. The papers in question had already been debunked and proven wrong before they were published, and the fact that the papers were somehow getting through peer review and being published anyway cast serious doubt on the quality of that magazine.

Ah, the pesky in-depth part that wasn't reported. I was on vacation in San Antonio and after the drive out didn't listen to or watch much news. Given the continuing coverage of 'Climategate' I imagine that it was great fun last week.

448 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:48:45pm

re: #433 Killgore Trout

It's such an embarrassment that he got elected.

I'm scratching my head. This isn't the first time I've seen Ventura act like bot a nutcase and a moron. Shows how easy it is to bamboozle the people into voting for you?

449 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:48:57pm

So the data is in doubt? Here:

Publicly available data sets, raw and processed-

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Try to cherry pick *that* amount of info!

450 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:49:13pm

re: #442 JohninLondon

The emails, although looking incriminating, are not the most important part of the leak/hack.

The Harry's File stuff is far more important. It shows beyond peradventure that the programming at CRU was crap. End of. Period. Full stop.

And if the programming was crap, the CRU's conclusions derived from such programming were untrustworthy. And anyone who says that the CRU's work is not a main driver of the whole AGW theory is telling porkies !

The "Nontroversy" ain't going away any time soon.

So you're just going to ignore my post yesterday showing that your claims are complete bullshit.

I'm not surprised.

451 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:49:38pm

re: #446 Racer X

The were both in Predator.

we are fucked.

452 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:49:41pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

Former governor of Minnesota.

Caligula's horse looks better every election.

That's what Catherine the Great said...

453 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:01pm

re: #439 Decatur Deb

I can't top that.

We haven't hit bottom.

454 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:18pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

Former governor of Minnesota.

Caligula's horse looks better every election.

Even Caligula's horse's ass looks better.

455 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:33pm

re: #411 Killgore Trout

Arguing with idiots...
Jesse Ventura Walks Off The Opie & Anthony Show



(NSFW language) Here's how you handle lunatics.


I feel significantly more stupid after watching that.

456 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:36pm

OT: Cop killer linked, by several implausible threads of shrieking harpyness, to Obama.

457 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:53pm

re: #451 brookly red

we are fucked.

That's the other pun "filament".

458 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:55pm

re: #443 brookly red

I think that was another governer...


Actually two governors. Ventura and Arnie.

459 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:51:01pm

re: #401 Gus 802

$15.00

But there's a $15.00 handling fee.

We are talking Bank of America.

/

Service Charge!
My statements always have at least one!

460 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:51:06pm

Excellent examples of denial going on right here in this thread, by the way. They stick to the talking points relentlessly, and just keep repeating falsehoods long after they're debunked.

461 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:51:14pm

re: #442 JohninLondon

The emails, although looking incriminating, are not the most important part of the leak/hack.

The Harry's File stuff is far more important. It shows beyond peradventure that the programming at CRU was crap. End of. Period. Full stop.

And if the programming was crap, the CRU's conclusions derived from such programming were untrustworthy. And anyone who says that the CRU's work is not a main driver of the whole AGW theory is telling porkies !

The "Nontroversy" ain't going away any time soon.

I started review some of the actual fortran code today (not Harry's narrative file, actual code), it took me a few days to actually find the source code. First look, in the least really sloppy. The code would never pass any code reviews where I have worked for the last 25 years.

462 Penny  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:51:22pm

"The "Nontroversy" ain't going away any time soon."

Perhaps we could all agree about the "Troversy"?

463 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:51:37pm

re: #456 The Sanity Inspector

OT: Cop killer linked, by several implausible threads of shrieking harpyness, to Obama.

And Kevin Bacon.

464 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #459 Floral Giraffe

Service Charge!
My statements always have at least one!

Yeah, and if you have to call them up to explain a service charge they apply a service charge for that.

465 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:09pm

re: #397 brookly red

I am a taxpayer, how much do I get?

A little less that you owe on your share of the national debt.

466 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:51pm

re: #454 Gus 802

Even Caligula's horse's ass looks better.

Caligula's horse's ass's pimple...

[keep it going!]

467 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:02pm

re: #456 The Sanity Inspector

OT: Cop killer linked, by several implausible threads of shrieking harpyness, to Obama.

Seriously? The Shrieking Harpy is doing this?

468 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:20pm

re: #463 Decatur Deb

And Kevin Bacon.

Bacon makes everything better. Even Kyra Sedgwick looks good next to him.

469 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:52pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

Caligula's horse's ass's pimple...

[keep it going!]

Didn't he rise to the purpura?

470 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:56pm

re: #460 Charles

Excellent examples of denial going on right here in this thread, by the way. They stick to the talking points relentlessly, and just keep repeating falsehoods long after they're debunked.

Impervious even to capslock!

471 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:54:03pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

Caligula's horse's ass's pimple...

[keep it going!]

Caligula's horse's ass's pimple bacterium is starting to look better...

472 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:54:09pm

Hey I enjoyed "Predator" immensely.

Jesse as governor - not so much.

Arnold has been a little better.

473 unruly human  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:54:30pm

re: #14 Charles

The CRU emails were deliberately cherry-picked by the criminal who stole them, out of many many thousands of emails, to find the ones that would give the worst impression.

And you know this...how?

474 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:54:37pm

re: #466 Cato the Elder

Caligula's horse's ass's pimple...

[keep it going!]

Competition of the evening: Name Caligula's horse (Cato you're not eligible to take part).

475 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:55:30pm

re: #474 John Neverbend

Competition of the evening: Name Caligula's horse (Cato you're not eligible to take part).

Starts w/ "Senator"...

476 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:02pm

One lesson everyone should be learning by now (and boy, is it hard to get people to go along with me on this) is to use public key encryption wherever possible for any emails you wouldn't want your kids/parents/boss/spouse/neighbor/dog/etc to see. You wouldn't mail a confidential letter without an envelope, so why treat email any differently?

There are all sorts of ways to implement it that are free and easy. It just comes down to getting people to understand why it's good practice.

477 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:12pm

re: #467 Gus 802

Seriously? The Shrieking Harpy is doing this?

Yep. I just looked at her site. I figured there were two candidates for that title, and Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage is still outraged at climate scientists. That. Too. Also.

That left the one whose names rhymes with spam.

478 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:13pm

re: #475 Decatur Deb

Starts w/ "Senator"...

Yes, I'll give you that. What about the other name?

479 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:22pm

re: #474 John Neverbend

Competition of the evening: Name Caligula's horse (Cato you're not eligible to take part).

Incitatus...wikopedia. :)

480 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:43pm

re: #460 Charles

///

Serious Sarc!

You're denying the Holocaust!

///

Again, serious Sarc!

481 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:02pm

re: #478 John Neverbend

I got nothin'.

482 Pacificlady  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:04pm

I just keep thinking that science and scientists should be better than what is reflected in those e-mails. Before extreme measures are taken, let's be sure about the science that is being used to support those changes.

483 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:17pm

re: #464 Gus 802

Yeah, and if you have to call them up to explain a service charge they apply a service charge for that.

The way my account is set up, if I walk into the bank, and talk to a teller, I get hit!

484 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:22pm

re: #442 JohninLondon

The emails, although looking incriminating, are not the most important part of the leak/hack.

The Harry's File stuff is far more important. It shows beyond peradventure that the programming at CRU was crap. End of. Period. Full stop.

And if the programming was crap, the CRU's conclusions derived from such programming were untrustworthy. And anyone who says that the CRU's work is not a main driver of the whole AGW theory is telling porkies !

The "Nontroversy" ain't going away any time soon.

Actually, it doesn't show that at all.

It's certainly true that the coding style is not up to professional standards. But for the purposes of determining the validity of results, the only thing that can be judged is the operation of the code, and there isn't a complete sample available to make such a determination from.

The closest that anyone can come is to compare CRU's results with similar work done by independent researchers. And there are, in fact, several examples of such studies. CRU's results are comparable to the results of these other studies, which provides an indication that there code works similarly to the way other code works, despite being written by others.

But a formal evaluation of CRU's code simply isn't possible because what's been released is incomplete.

Whether the code is sloppy or not doesn't provide a metric for determining it's correctness. Believe me - I've seen code that was incredibly poorly written - from a software engineering perspective - that nonetheless produced excellent results.

If you'd care to continue this criticism, please provide a formal explanation of what the code in question is supposed to do, what it actually does, and where the errors it contains lie. "Gee, it's messy" or "They sound like assholes" has no bearing on whether the output is correct or not. Please be specific and show me precisely what the errors are, where they occur and what the code ought to be doing instead.

485 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:58:00pm

re: #479 brownbagj

Incitatus...wikopedia. :)

Excellent! And now for part 2 of the question. What is the supine stem of confiteor?

486 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:58:03pm

re: #473 unruly human

The CRU emails were deliberately cherry-picked by the criminal who stole them, out of many many thousands of emails, to find the ones that would give the worst impression.

And you know this...how?

Because they used selective quotes from 1996 through as recently as Novemeber 12 of this year.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Asked and answered.

487 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:58:31pm

re: #482 Pacificlady

I just keep thinking that science and scientists should be better than what is reflected in those e-mails. Before extreme measures are taken, let's be sure about the science that is being used to support those changes.

We are sure about it. There are mountains of scientific evidence. Please. Stop getting all your information about this from people who are lying to you.

And I don't know where you got the idea that scientists aren't human beings like everyone else.

488 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:59:28pm

re: #477 celticdragon

Yep. I just looked at her site. I figured there were two candidates for that title, and Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage is still outraged at climate scientists. That. Too. Also.

That left the one whose names rhymes with spam.

Holy cow this is how her headline reads:

Cop Killer Celebrated as "Muslim Martyr" by Obama-Connected Nation of islam offshoot

489 Cato the Elder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:59:33pm

OK, just to be absolutely clear:

I would vote for Caligula's horse's ass's pimple's bacterium's virus over Sarah Palin.

There. I said it.

490 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:00:24pm

re: #450 Charles

So you're just going to ignore my post yesterday showing that your claims are complete bullshit.

I'm not surprised.

Charles

I have never yet seen a substantive comment from you on the appalling mess the CRU programming was in. As shown in the Harry's File stuff, page after page after page of it.

If the programming - the HANDLING of the raw data - is suspect, so are the published CRU results tht relied on that programming.

491 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:00:59pm

re: #429 Gus 802

He's pretty funny.

To think, Ventura was a governor.

Jesse Ventura has a show now, beginning tonight I believe, on TruTV.
His show is on at the same time as Steven Seagal's new show on A&E.

Jesse's show is "Conspiracy Theory", wooo.
Seagal's show is "Lawman". He is apparently a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, LA just outside New Orleans.

Which one to watch? Such a difficult decision. Almost as difficult as trying to decide whether to read LGF or watch Dog the Bounty Hunter.

492 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:02:09pm

re: #484 SixDegrees

Actually, it doesn't show that at all.

It's certainly true that the coding style is not up to professional standards. But for the purposes of determining the validity of results, the only thing that can be judged is the operation of the code, and there isn't a complete sample available to make such a determination from.

The closest that anyone can come is to compare CRU's results with similar work done by independent researchers. And there are, in fact, several examples of such studies. CRU's results are comparable to the results of these other studies, which provides an indication that there code works similarly to the way other code works, despite being written by others.

But a formal evaluation of CRU's code simply isn't possible because what's been released is incomplete.

Whether the code is sloppy or not doesn't provide a metric for determining it's correctness. Believe me - I've seen code that was incredibly poorly written - from a software engineering perspective - that nonetheless produced excellent results.

If you'd care to continue this criticism, please provide a formal explanation of what the code in question is supposed to do, what it actually does, and where the errors it contains lie. "Gee, it's messy" or "They sound like assholes" has no bearing on whether the output is correct or not. Please be specific and show me precisely what the errors are, where they occur and what the code ought to be doing instead.

That's not possible, since Charles doesn't want any of the hacked material on LGF or linked to, so it would be hard to discuss the actual code here.

I have the actual fortran and IDL code, at least all that's available to the "public." Yes, it's sloppy, and you are correct, sloppy doesn't not mean code that doesn't do what it's suppose to. Even sloppy code can perform successfully.

493 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:02:57pm

re: #485 John Neverbend

Processing...

494 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:03:00pm

re: #491 reine.de.tout

Jesse Ventura has a show now, beginning tonight I believe, on TruTV.
His show is on at the same time as Steven Seagal's new show on A&E.

Jesse's show is "Conspiracy Theory", wooo.
Seagal's show is "Lawman". He is apparently a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, LA just outside New Orleans.

Which one to watch? Such a difficult decision. Almost as difficult as trying to decide whether to read LGF or watch Dog the Bounty Hunter.

OMG, Steven Seagal is nuts too.

All three of those are known for their "hair." Where does Fabio fit in?

495 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:03:54pm

re: #476 negativ

One lesson everyone should be learning by now (and boy, is it hard to get people to go along with me on this) is to use public key encryption wherever possible for any emails you wouldn't want your kids/parents/boss/spouse/neighbor/dog/etc to see. You wouldn't mail a confidential letter without an envelope, so why treat email any differently?

There are all sorts of ways to implement it that are free and easy. It just comes down to getting people to understand why it's good practice.

Another good practice, frankly, would be to insist that scientists corresponding on research matter conduct themselves in a professional manner. The style seen in the CRU emails would be totally unacceptable at most corporations these days, and some of them would lead to warnings or even write ups if found in such an environment. Academia runs a much more casual ship, but as I've said all along, appearances matter, and the off-the-cuff snark and banter is now biting these researchers in the ass, regardless of their intent.

It isn't too much to ask employees - and that includes researchers - to keep their correspondence succinct, to the point and free of superfluous commentary.

496 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:04:19pm

re: #493 brownbagj

Processing...

Just like Data, when he wired his positronic brain to Locutus of Borg? Sod it, time for a Guinness, I think.

497 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:05:11pm

re: #496 John Neverbend

Just like Data, when he wired his positronic brain to Locutus of Borg? Sod it, time for a Guinness, I think.

Hmmm...you mean it wasn't already time for one? Oops.

498 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:06:31pm

re: #490 JohninLondon

Charles

I have never yet seen a substantive comment from you on the appalling mess the CRU programming was in. As shown in the Harry's File stuff, page after page after page of it.

If the programming - the HANDLING of the raw data - is suspect, so are the published CRU results tht relied on that programming.

Are you a programmer? What are your qualifications to judge whether the code is an "appalling mess" or not?

You're just parroting claims you've read at denier sites. And there's no point in discussing this with you.

499 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:07:18pm

re: #494 Gus 802

OMG, Steven Seagal is nuts too.

All three of those are known for their "hair." Where does Fabio fit in?

Fabio can fit in anywhere he wants.
Wotta hunk.
Actually when I see interviews with Fabio, he seems to understand quite well just how silly his claim to fame is. Unlike others who take themselves wayyy too seriously.

500 gregb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:08:23pm

Huh? I thought one of the initial stories detailed how they got into the wild. Some IT guy was packaging them up for a legal request and put them on an unprotected public server. The criminal act would be if he even alerted outsiders that he had done so, which there is suspicion he did.

I knew I should have kept that article. Now I have to go find the citation.

501 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:08:27pm

re: #499 reine.de.tout

Fabio can fit in anywhere he wants.
Wotta hunk.
Actually when I see interviews with Fabio, he seems to understand quite well just how silly his claim to fame is. Unlike others who take themselves wayyy too seriously.

The times I've seen him in interviews he always came off as being a nice guy. Didn't expect that from a guy named Fabio that looks like that.

502 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:10:40pm

re: #492 Walter L. Newton

That's not possible, since Charles doesn't want any of the hacked material on LGF or linked to, so it would be hard to discuss the actual code here.

I have the actual fortran and IDL code, at least all that's available to the "public." Yes, it's sloppy, and you are correct, sloppy doesn't not mean code that doesn't do what it's suppose to. Even sloppy code can perform successfully.

I suspect that Charles might make an exception if someone were to produce a clear, indisputable example of deliberate abuse, or even of a substantive error leading to demonstrably false results, so long as it was properly documented. It would probably be a good idea to ask permission first, of course.

So far, though, I haven't seen any such thing. I've only examined bits and pieces of the code, not the actual source files themselves, and only casually at that. So far, I haven't seen anything leaping out suggesting profound error, but without the entire code base it's impossible to really make such a judgment.

I completely agree that the code isn't up to professional standards. It is, in fact, exactly like thousands of lines of code I've dealt with on a daily basis, produced not by software people but by scientists and engineers in other disciplines. If it works, they don't care what it looks like, despite my bitching.

503 gregb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:11:46pm

re: #500 gregb

Not to reply to myself, but, I couldn't find the original. I did find this interesting add-on.

[Link: trueslant.com...]

504 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:55pm

re: #495 SixDegrees

Why should they worry about "appearances" in their private e-mails? It's not like I keep all my e-mails super secret double private just in case I ever get hacked.

And besides, everyone who whines about how other workplaces are so much more professional and the e-mails there would always be polite and well-worded? That's incorrect, and strongly so. It seems that way to lowly grunts like Joe Q. Employee, and to Joe's boss as well, but there've been plenty of leaked letters and e-mails from high-level execs in both businesses and government entities that were much worse than that. Once you get past a certain level, there's not as much need for formality and business talk and the bosses are free to BS around with each other just like anyone else. I'm sure the grad students and other errand boys are formal and polite in their e-mails to each other just like you have to be, but the scientists are at the top of the ladder and they're going to say what they're going to say, just like a CEO or a board of directors.

505 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:14:19pm

re: #502 SixDegrees

I suspect that Charles might make an exception if someone were to produce a clear, indisputable example of deliberate abuse, or even of a substantive error leading to demonstrably false results, so long as it was properly documented. It would probably be a good idea to ask permission first, of course.

So far, though, I haven't seen any such thing. I've only examined bits and pieces of the code, not the actual source files themselves, and only casually at that. So far, I haven't seen anything leaping out suggesting profound error, but without the entire code base it's impossible to really make such a judgment.

I completely agree that the code isn't up to professional standards. It is, in fact, exactly like thousands of lines of code I've dealt with on a daily basis, produced not by software people but by scientists and engineers in other disciplines. If it works, they don't care what it looks like, despite my bitching.

You sound like you go through what I use to go through at the National Renewable Energy Lab. Scientist who THINK they can program because they have VB or Access on their workstation, would build a silly little application and months later, come to IT to fix it.

Orphan applications we called them. Yes, really sloppy, really scary that the scientist were using this crap for their metrics, but... what can you do.

SUPPER... bbiab...

506 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:15:31pm

re: #110 Charles

Please note:

Climate Breakthrough: Obama and China Commit to Change.

Of course, if you get all your information from right wing blogs, you could easily miss this enormous breakthrough.

Charles

You surely cannot believe that Obama and China are going to agree at Copenhagen ? Obama won't be there anyway, he passes through a few days before.

China, India, Brazil and South Africa are determined to block any attempt to corral them. It's like expecting to be able to herd a bunch of cats.

Best case, there will be a fudge of a communique after Copenhagen, attempts to sae face all round. (Believe me - I have helped draft some of them.)

Worst case - China, India etc will do a flounce. Why the hell should China in particular be willing to be bow to its debtor ?

Realpolitik suggests that Copenhagen is already a bust. People will go through the motions, but there is no way that China will want to moderate its economic growth, The growth that keeps the masses happy and thereby helps keep the Communist Party in power.

507 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:19:10pm

re: #502 SixDegrees

I suspect that Charles might make an exception if someone were to produce a clear, indisputable example of deliberate abuse, or even of a substantive error leading to demonstrably false results, so long as it was properly documented. It would probably be a good idea to ask permission first, of course.

I have the package of data; I got it the first day the story broke.

I've looked through a lot of it -- not all, but a lot. There is absolutely no evidence in there of any wrongdoing. None.

The criminal who stole this stuff deliberately picked out the worst things he could find -- and there's nothing there, except scientists acting like emotional human beings.

The reason I'm so completely sure this is a phony scandal is because I looked into it myself, in depth.

508 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:19:57pm

re: #498 Charles

Are you a programmer? What are your qualifications to judge whether the code is an "appalling mess" or not?

You're just parroting claims you've read at denier sites. And there's no point in discussing this with you.

In rebuttal Charles - why not try reading the Harry's File stuff ? The guy is pulling his hair out.

And the most expert and derogatory comments I have read on it have been right here, at your blog.

509 Sloppy  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:20:21pm

I've never up- or down-dinged anyone and am not likely to do so. Can I sell my dinging privileges to some poor Lizard who hasn't met the 50-comment requirement yet? Chocolate is my favorite medium of exchange.

510 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:20:29pm

re: #507 Charles

But you "quit" the far right, so we can't trust you either.

/sarc :)

511 AtadOFF  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:20:55pm

re: #474 John Neverbend

I can't recall the name but didn't Caligula build a palace for it?

512 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:26:12pm

re: #504 Gelly

Why should they worry about "appearances" in their private e-mails? It's not like I keep all my e-mails super secret double private just in case I ever get hacked.

And besides, everyone who whines about how other workplaces are so much more professional and the e-mails there would always be polite and well-worded? That's incorrect, and strongly so. It seems that way to lowly grunts like Joe Q. Employee, and to Joe's boss as well, but there've been plenty of leaked letters and e-mails from high-level execs in both businesses and government entities that were much worse than that. Once you get past a certain level, there's not as much need for formality and business talk and the bosses are free to BS around with each other just like anyone else. I'm sure the grad students and other errand boys are formal and polite in their e-mails to each other just like you have to be, but the scientists are at the top of the ladder and they're going to say what they're going to say, just like a CEO or a board of directors.

At the company I work for, we are constantly reminded that the computers and servers belong to the company, and so does everything that resides on them, including any emails we send or receive. The live on company servers, where they can be examined at will by the corporation's representatives.

It is also made extremely clear that we are to conduct ourselves in a professional manner at all times when on company property or using corporate equipment.

People have had their email accounts audited, and some have been admonished for the content found in their correspondence. I'm not aware of any firings, but that would certainly be a possible outcome for a serious transgression.

And this is commonplace at other large corporations, too. I'd guess it's the rule, rather than the exception.

None of theses emails are "private." They are all directly related to the researcher's work, and appear to have been sent and received through official servers - not through someone's Yahoo! account.

So demanding a standard of professionalism doesn't strike me as odd in any way. Had such a policy been in place in this case, there would be little to talk about, since it's mostly the snark that's catching people's attention rather than the actual content.

513 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:32:46pm

re: #507 Charles

I have the package of data; I got it the first day the story broke.

I've looked through a lot of it -- not all, but a lot. There is absolutely no evidence in there of any wrongdoing. None.

The criminal who stole this stuff deliberately picked out the worst things he could find -- and there's nothing there, except scientists acting like emotional human beings.

The reason I'm so completely sure this is a phony scandal is because I looked into it myself, in depth.

All I've seen so far is a sloppiness in coding and data handling that wouldn't pass muster at a professional software house. It's disconcerting, but it isn't an indication of malfeasance or even of incorrectness. To determine such things would take an extensive code review, something I don't have the time or desire to undertake.

But if someone has found actual, demonstrable errors, I'm certain you'd like to hear about it as much as I would. Until then, however, I'm getting tired of baseless accusations founded on nothing but a determination to reach a foregone conclusion. At this point, I'm more or less in put-up-or-shut-up mode. If someone's found an actual error, intentional or accidental, let's see it, along with some actual reasoning to shore up the assertion. Otherwise, I've already heard that people are unhappy; there's nothing I can do about that.

514 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:33:13pm

Out for the evening.

515 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:41:15pm

re: #151 SixDegrees

Correct. Being more sophisticated than Palin's hacker means being able to tie your own shoelaces.

Also, the Feds jumped on the Palin case, while the CRU case seems to be in the hands of University security.

Not to mention the tiny issue of jurisdiction as the Feds have no authority in the UK.

At this point it appears the Norfolk Constabulary is handling the initial investigation.

516 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:51:47pm

re: #446 Racer X

The were both in Predator.

And in The Running Man...I liked it ;-P

517 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:57:47pm

re: #491 reine.de.tout

Jesse Ventura has a show now, beginning tonight I believe, on TruTV.
His show is on at the same time as Steven Seagal's new show on A&E.

Jesse's show is "Conspiracy Theory", wooo.
Seagal's show is "Lawman". He is apparently a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, LA just outside New Orleans.

Which one to watch? Such a difficult decision. Almost as difficult as trying to decide whether to read LGF or watch Dog the Bounty Hunter.

I'll take Seagal for $500, Alex.. ;-P

(Actually, I'm at work right now, so we probably will watch Lawman)

518 unruly human  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:04:14pm

re: #486 austin_blue

Because they used selective quotes from 1996 through as recently as Novemeber 12 of this year.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Asked and answered.

Who is/are "they"? How did BBC's Paul Hudson get the file on Oct. 12 if the files we have now contain messages as late as Nov. 12?

519 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:49pm

re: #513 SixDegrees

All I've seen so far is a sloppiness in coding and data handling that wouldn't pass muster at a professional software house. It's disconcerting, but it isn't an indication of malfeasance or even of incorrectness.

The functions themselves are the malfeasance.

520 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:38:23pm

re: #506 JohninLondon

Isn't the whole fact that we're cooking up global policy with *china* a little disconcerting?

521 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:43:15pm

re: #520 saik0max0r

Isn't the whole fact that we're cooking up global policy with *china* a little disconcerting?

They're part of the globe, genius.

522 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:44:16pm

re: #520 saik0max0r

Isn't the whole fact that we're cooking up global policy with *china* a little disconcerting?

I don't think there is any real measure of agreement between the US and China on all this. China is playing its own game, always has, always will.

While in China earlier this year, I asked people how they felt about their huge rate of compound economic growth, the prospect that on some measures they were overtaking the US. I always got the same response - "We don't want to be No 1, we are happy with being No 2". Damn clever, these Chinese.

523 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:45:13pm

re: #521 Obdicut

So is Saudi Arabia and the Tailban, Einstein.

524 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:02pm

re: #512 SixDegrees

You just proved my point yourself - you have to formal in professional and business e-mail because it can give your boss a reason to fire you. The high-ranking executives in your company, who don't have to worry about being fired on a whim and definitely aren't going to have anyone looking up their e-mails or peeking over their shoulder, aren't bound by that and will happily make off-color jokes or allude to criminal practices in their work e-mails. Just because something applies to a regular employee like you doesn't mean it applies to the entire business world. And scientists, who don't have bosses to impress, aren't bound by that either. The "company" doesn't own everything they do during "work" time, so the comparisons fall apart already.

525 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:11pm

re: #521 Obdicut

They're part of the globe, genius.


Another example of your gullibility.

Don't you realise that the Chinese have an innate sense of superiority ? We have always been the "Barbarians".

526 Penny  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:48:33pm

"Isn't the whole fact that we're cooking up global policy with *china* a little disconcerting?"

Not in the least. In fact, it allows me to sleep better at night.

527 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:51:09pm

re: #523 saik0max0r

So is Saudi Arabia and the Tailban, Einstein.

We've been making deals with the Saudi since the 1940s or even before that. Or have you forgotten who the primary oil partner for the United States is. Copenhagen is essentially a non-binding political resolution and not a binding treaty. The United States also indemnified the Saudis out of any responsibility for the 911 hijackers most of which came from Saudi Arabia.

528 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:51:36pm

re: #522 JohninLondon

Sun-Tzu =-)

I think most Asian scientists know that the case is overstated. This whole "zomg global warming" algore horseshit appears to primarily be the domain of American and British scientists.

The Folks who run the Japanese Earth Simulator Super Computer recently pointed out the level of uncertainty involved in the field at the present state, and suggested that most existing models were essentially as accurate as astrological predictions. And of course, most Russian physicists think it's all bullshit.

In the former case, their code is better. In the latter case, Chess is a spectator sport.

Meanwhile, Britain and America Manufacture crap like American Idol.

529 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:52:19pm

re: #526 Penny

Glad you aren't gay or believe in any of that democracy stuff.

/

530 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:53:40pm

re: #525 JohninLondon

Another example of your gullibility.

Don't you realise that the Chinese have an innate sense of superiority ? We have always been the "Barbarians".

While it doesn't mean we have to bend over backwards to appease the Chinese you need to look up how they are the primary buyers of US Treasuries. They are also the primary export partner with most nations across the world.

531 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:07pm

re: #527 Gus 802

FWIW, Canada is the primary oil partner of the United States.

"The United States also indemnified the Saudis out of any responsibility for the 911 hijackers most of which came from Saudi Arabia."

meh.

532 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:56:22pm

re: #531 saik0max0r

FWIW, Canada is the primary oil partner of the United States.

"The United States also indemnified the Saudis out of any responsibility for the 911 hijackers most of which came from Saudi Arabia."

meh.

The Saudis are third.

Meh, yeah, meh. Keep deluding yourself.

533 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:57:44pm

re: #525 JohninLondon

Another example of your gullibility.

Don't you realise that the Chinese have an innate sense of superiority ? We have always been the "Barbarians".

Racist.

534 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:59:56pm

re: #529 saik0max0r

Glad you aren't gay or believe in any of that democracy stuff.

/

Figures you would make a homophobic comment.

535 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:50pm

re: #534 Gus 802

How could you possibly construe that as a homophobic comment? I'm assuming you don't have some mental retardation that causes you to select random and inappropriate adjectives or adverbs into your sentences.

536 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:06:40pm

People were very critical of Obama's ridiculous bow in Japan. But it was not forced on him, it was his choice to behave in an amateurish and embarrasing manner.

But in China he was treated like a total amateur. Not his choice - their choice, he was deliberately belittled.

Its the old Golden Rule, I suppose, he who has the gold gets to rule. Plus the abiding sense of Chinese superiority.

537 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:07:03pm

re: #535 saik0max0r

How could you possibly construe that as a homophobic comment? I'm assuming you don't have some mental retardation that causes you to select random and inappropriate adjectives or adverbs into your sentences.

So after you make a homophobic joke now you're making a joke about the mentally challenged.

Seems about right for you. Can't wait to see what's next.

538 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:08:32pm

re: #533 Obdicut

Racist.

That really takes the biscuit for stupidity.

539 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:09:24pm

re: #538 JohninLondon

That really takes the biscuit for stupidity.

What does the word 'innate' mean, John?

540 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:02pm

re: #535 saik0max0r

How could you possibly construe that as a homophobic comment? I'm assuming you don't have some mental retardation that causes you to select random and inappropriate adjectives or adverbs into your sentences.

By the way, they like you at Deuce. That's actually fitting.

541 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:07pm

re: #537 Gus 802

Thank you for not answering the question. First, the joke wasn't homophobic. What I find fascinating is that we're engaging in a quest to write rules restricting freedom with a country that is not democratic and violently represses homosexuals.

And, no, I'm not making fun of the mentally challenged. I'm making fun of *you* personally. Thanks for trying thou.

542 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:15pm

re: #539 Obdicut

What does the word 'innate' mean, John?

Why don't do yourself a favour and learn some Chinese history. 5000 years of it.

543 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:40pm

re: #541 saik0max0r

Thank you for not answering the question. First, the joke wasn't homophobic. What I find fascinating is that we're engaging in a quest to write rules restricting freedom with a country that is not democratic and violently represses homosexuals.

And, no, I'm not making fun of the mentally challenged. I'm making fun of *you* personally. Thanks for trying thou.

Uh, the word is though not thou genius.

I think you would be happier at Deuce.

544 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:36pm

re: #543 Gus 802

You think? Since when?

545 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:19:05pm

re: #542 JohninLondon

Why don't do yourself a favour and learn some Chinese history. 5000 years of it.

And if you'd said they had a cultural sense of superiority, I'd not have called you a racist.

But you said it was innate. Which means inborn. It means stemming from the true essence of something.

Which means I'm calling you a racist.

546 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:20:29pm

re: #544 saik0max0r

You think? Since when?

Since I noticed your bumpkin misfit self. That's when.

547 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:21:26pm

re: #545 Obdicut

Yeah... Which Culture? Cantonese? Mandarin? etc.?

Saying the Chinese have an innate sense of moral superiority is a little to close to slurs I've heard about Jews and other economically successful ethnic minorities.

548 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:21:59pm

re: #546 Gus 802

/wink

549 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:24:52pm

re: #547 saik0max0r

Yeah... Which Culture? Cantonese? Mandarin? etc.?

Saying the Chinese have an innate sense of moral superiority is a little to close to slurs I've heard about Jews and other economically successful ethnic minorities.

So. When do you pull out "The Bell Curve?"

550 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:25:40pm

re: #549 Gus 802

So. When do you pull out "The Bell Curve?"

Gus, um, I think he was agreeing that it sounded racist.

551 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:23pm

It's been over 15 minutes since we've gotten and JohninLondon Denier Spam™

Also waiting for the Saik0max0r Denier Spam™

552 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:28:14pm

re: #550 Obdicut

Gus, um, I think he was agreeing that it sounded racist.

Or xenophobic. I'm sure they're holding back on the Obama conspiracies.

553 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:29:26pm

re: #551 Gus 802

Want to see a cool chart?

Image: bonds-28-1.gif

554 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:32:07pm

re: #490 JohninLondon

Charles

I have never yet seen a substantive comment from you on the appalling mess the CRU programming was in. As shown in the Harry's File stuff, page after page after page of it.

If the programming - the HANDLING of the raw data - is suspect, so are the published CRU results tht relied on that programming.

If you have that much detail, and can understand it all you should realize that this is your chance to become famous, and rich even.

Rewrite it and the world will beat a path to your door. You can't lose.

If you prove it doesn't work you'll be on the Glenn Beck show next day, and people will be throwing money at you. If you prove it works, duck, while accepting grants from governments all over the world.

555 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:33:24pm

re: #553 saik0max0r

Want to see a cool chart?

[Link: www.marketoracle.co.uk...]

Yep. Seen that before. Cliche of market performance. I suppose that means once we accept AGW that will go down.

So, when do the Maoists take over?

556 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:34:23pm

re: #545 Obdicut

And if you'd said they had a cultural sense of superiority, I'd not have called you a racist.

But you said it was innate. Which means inborn. It means stemming from the true essence of something.

Which means I'm calling you a racist.

It was obvious from the context that I meant they have always felt culturally superior. "Innate" as in the rational philosophy sense - they can feel superior to the outside world without direct experience of the outside world.

You wanna twist things, play casuistry, to call me racist, that's your privilege.

I think however that it marks you out as an abusive fool.

You like calling people racist ? Make a habit of it ?

557 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:34:41pm

...

558 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:41:40pm

re: #550 Obdicut

Correct. I was simply pointing out that it was either provincial or racist to suggest that the "Chinese" have any "Innate" characteristics when in fact the "Chinese" represent a broad spectrum of ethnic groups, cultures and languages which tenuously share the philosophical foundations of confucsianism.

Frankly, if you look at history, the overseas chinese have been treated poorly and subject to slurs in places like *ahem* the United States that share unfortunate parallels with the slander and libel to the Jews in Europe.

It's funny how easily people forget these things...

559 eric  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:45:52pm

Charles,

I agree that the hacking was illegal and criminal. But don't impugn the entire right wing blogosphere. I am looking for examples of cogent thoughtful analysis of the situation from that(my) side of the aisle. I'll find it I'm sure. Really I will.

560 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:14pm

re: #554 Naso Tang

It will take much longer than that to perform a proper regression analysis of climate data and findings without substantial amounts of capital funding. Proper analysis and reanalysis will take roughly half a decade.

561 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:35pm

re: #555 Gus 802

Not Mao.

ObaMao!!!

Image: obamao.jpg

/Cue Sinister Musics..

562 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:52:26pm

re: #561 saik0max0r

Not Mao.

ObaMao!!!

[Link: orangepunch.freedomblogging.com...]

/Cue Sinister Musics..

What's his middle name again?

563 saik0max0r  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:58:48pm

re: #562 Gus 802

H. Like The P. in P. Diddy.

It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand.

564 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:10pm

re: #563 saik0max0r

H. Like The P. in P. Diddy.

It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand.

565 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:26:19pm

re: #545 Obdicut

And if you'd said they had a cultural sense of superiority, I'd not have called you a racist.

But you said it was innate. Which means inborn. It means stemming from the true essence of something.

Which means I'm calling you a racist.

That is unwarranted, John clearly means the cultural sense of superiority, something he is quite correct about. You are twisting his words to be insulting.

566 Achilles Tang  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:54:40pm

re: #560 saik0max0r

It will take much longer than that to perform a proper regression analysis of climate data and findings without substantial amounts of capital funding. Proper analysis and reanalysis will take roughly half a decade.

No kidding!

567 revGDright  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:00:41pm

This is beginning to smell like an inside job. Somebody within CRU leaked those emails deliberately after getting their wrist slapped for trying to come forth with contrary research. If it had been hacked from the outside they'd have found out by now.
Oil companies got nothing to do with it. They sell every barrel of oil they produce and, if anything, AGW will wind up making them more money by shooting the prices sky high as they limit production (and their costs) in response to capandtrade.
These "scientists" manipulated the data, but that's ok, everybody does. But their high-fiving the death of a skeptic and openly supressing contrary views is devastating to their case. If they deleted files after an FOI request had been received in this country they'd be doing a perp walk.

568 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:19:47pm

obvious newTrolls are obvious.

569 Neo_  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:23:22pm

The last vestage of Enron

Almost two decades before President Barack Obama made “cap-and-trade” for carbon dioxide emissions a household term, an obscure company called Enron — a natural-gas pipeline company that had become a big-time trader in energy commodities — had figured out how to make millions in a cap-and-trade program for sulphur dioxide emissions, thanks to changes in the U.S. government’s Clean Air Act. To the delight of shareholders, Enron’s stock price rose rapidly as it became the major trader in the U.S. government’s $20-billion a year emissions commodity market.
Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay, keen to engineer an encore, saw his opportunity when Bill Clinton and Al Gore were inaugurated as president and vice-president in 1993. To capitalize on Al Gore’s interest in global warming, Enron immediately embarked on a massive lobbying effort to develop a trading system for carbon dioxide, working both the Clinton administration and Congress. Political contributions and Enron-funded analyses flowed freely, all geared to demonstrating a looming global catastrophe if carbon dioxide emissions weren’t curbed. An Enron-funded study that dismissed the notion that calamity could come of global warming, meanwhile, was quietly buried.

570 Buck  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:31:16pm

Can we agree that someone asked people to delete emails, in an email, with the SUBJECT: line containing FOI? That might qualify as an attempt to delete data, and is indeed a serious problem.

Phil Jones wrote:
>
>> Mike,
> Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
> Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment - minor family crisis.
>
> Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don't
> have his new email address.
>
> We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
>
> I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature
> paper!!
>
> Cheers
> Phil

All we need to convict a GW 'denier' of being in the pocket of big oil is any hint at all of a connection. Just the rumor of a connection would be good enough.

If we saw this in a AGW "denier" email, we would shout coverup (which is what the gate suffix means).

Lesson learned, when you want to delete emails, be sure to delete the emails telling you to delete emails.

Oh and this one explaining it...

571 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:33:15pm

re: #567 revGDright

These "scientists" manipulated the data, but that's ok, everybody does.

Nobody "manipulated" any data.

But their high-fiving the death of a skeptic and openly supressing contrary views is devastating to their case.

Nobody suppressed contrary views.

If they deleted files after an FOI request had been received in this country they'd be doing a perp walk.

Nobody deleted any files.

All of this is deceptive propaganda. And it just keeps being repeated relentlessly, despite being debunked over and over and over.

572 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 10:03:15pm

re: #556 JohninLondon

It was obvious from the context that I meant they have always felt culturally superior. "Innate" as in the rational philosophy sense - they can feel superior to the outside world without direct experience of the outside world.

You wanna twist things, play casuistry, to call me racist, that's your privilege.

I think however that it marks you out as an abusive fool.

You like calling people racist ? Make a habit of it ?

No, I don't make a habit of it.

Only when people insinuate that one group has something innate about them that's different from 'us'.

As if I couldn't possibly be a Chinese person.
re: #565 Bagua

That is unwarranted, John clearly means the cultural sense of superiority, something he is quite correct about. You are twisting his words to be insulting.

No, I'm not. Innate means that if you are Chinese, that is how you feel. It means every Chinese person does. It means that to be Chinese is to feel that. As though the Chinese man who stood in front of the tank didn't exist.

It's a stupid thing to say that the Chinese-- who, as have been mentioned, are an amalgam of a bunch of different cultures-- are all the same in any way, but to say that they have an innate feeling of superiority to 'us' is racist.

It is also hilarious that you are, apparently, unaware of any irony in saying that another culture thinks itself superior.

573 amosz2  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 10:10:12pm

Do these emails prove that warming is not occuring? No.

But they do confirm a trend that was already established before the emails were released. That this boyz-club is a bit dodgy. Getting chummy with editors, trying to affect the review process, preventing release of information are all run of the mile activites for these guys.

As for this notion that if you look over anyones email you will find this type of stuff. That is just complete bs, when sending an email most people are diligent enought to know that you have no control over who may read it and act accordingly.

And all these people talking about "theft is theft", get over it already, hundreds of millions of people on the planet would be in jail for stealing if theft of movies/mp3 was enforced. As for how would i feel if they broke into my house, been there, done that, got over it, cry me a river. It the digital age. You type something into a computer and press send and you have no control over who reads it, so don't write something that will make you look like a fool.

For arguments sake what about Child Pedophile rings that are cracked when people hack their emails or server. Is it still a case of theft is theft. *sigh*. Are groups like Ethical Hackers Against Pedophilia bad or good? Theft is Theft right? or? ??

574 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 10:31:53pm

re: #573 amosz2

Right, gotcha. You're fine with stealing private emails and publishing them anonymously.

And I assume you felt the same way when Sarah Palin's email account was broken into and her emails published on the web?

575 amosz2  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 11:18:56pm

Sre: #574 Charles

Sure, why not couldnt care less. Same rules apply.

In Palins case the worst thing about it is she use public email for business purposes "gov.palin" ???, for that i would fire her. Who can fire a governor?

576 amosz2  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:09:33am

re: #77 Charles

Google Search
"Climate Denial Holocaust" 792,000 hits
"Climate Denier Holocaust" 145,000 hits
"Climate Denier Nazi Holocaust" 147,000 hits
"Climate Denier Nazi" 108,000 hits
---
"Climate Denial Snoop Dogg" 12,400 hits
"Climate Denier Fat Boy Slim" 2,210 hits
"Climate Denier Chinease Tea Ceremony" 2,690 hits
"Climate Denier AlGore" 219,000

As you can see Nazi Holocaust is almost as relevant to Climate Denial as Al Gore with 147K vs 219K. I think we can say that the science linking the word "Climate Denial" to the "Nazi Holocaust" has been settled.

PS. I am completely open to the idea of cutting green house emissons but everytime i hear you or GreenMan on youtube say denier 10 times a minute I cringe. You may not mean it in that way but it is exactly how it is received.

In a similar way when i used to say "can i bum a fag" or "I am off to buy some fags" there was no issue. But when i worked in the US or Asia, did i say this? After some sticky situations (pun not intended), no i didn't. I don't really say it at all now at all. See perception altering behaviour. You can do it too, Charles. *double thumbs up*

577 Bagua  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:50:10am

re: #572 Obdicut

No, I'm not. Innate means that if you are Chinese, that is how you feel. It means every Chinese person does. It means that to be Chinese is to feel that. As though the Chinese man who stood in front of the tank didn't exist.

Nope, you are insisting on a definition of innate as genetic so you can fling the allegation of 'racist'. In fact John is using the word in its cultural sense. That you bring up “the Chinese man who stood in front of the tank” really shows what a dramatist you are.

It's a stupid thing to say that the Chinese-- who, as have been mentioned, are an amalgam of a bunch of different cultures-- are all the same in any way, but to say that they have an innate feeling of superiority to 'us' is racist.

No it’s not stupid, it is a cultural observation. You could also make your point without the insult. Cultural attitudes are not racial or genetic, rather they are a type of shared mythology.

It is also hilarious that you are, apparently, unaware of any irony in saying that another culture thinks itself superior.

Why the condescension? Is that always necessary? In fact I’m well aware of your insight and I have dismissed it.

578 mph  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:22:15am

re: #6 Charles

I don't know where you got the idea that all energy companies are funding denial front groups. Some definitely are, especially Exxon-Mobil.

But Shell Oil has always been much more rational about it, and I haven't seen evidence that they support anti-AGW groups like other energy companies do.

Shell stands to make billions from Cap-and-Trade (they are publicly supporting it), as the legislation will induce a shift from domestically mined coal to foreign-imported oil as the primary source of energy in this country (Oil produces less CO2 per BTU than coal, but is more expensive). Cap-and-trade makes us more dependent on foreign oil and companies like Shell. When something smells funny, follow the money...

579 revGDright  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:45:14am

It's 40-some years on now since the Pentagon Papers were stolen by Daniel Ellsberg. Nobody is still sitting around decrying the criminality of the theft. Instead the substance of what was in the papers is what is remembered. The toothpaste is out of the tube on this one.

580 nomra  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:55:31am

re: #91 WindUpBird

You guys defending the use of the "denier" smear are as literalist as Southern Baptists when it suits you:


Let's just say that global warming deniers are now on a par with Holocaust deniers, though one denies the past and the other denies the present and future.


If, like me, you adopt a virtue or duty ethic, but one tempered by consideration of the consequences of an act, climate deniers are less immoral than Holocaust deniers, although they are undoubtedly more dangerous.


David Irving is under arrest in Austria for Holocaust denial. Perhaps there is a case for making climate change denial an offence - it is a crime against humanity after all.


I put this in a similar moral category to Holocaust denial – except that this time the Holocaust is yet to come, and we still have time to avoid it. Those who try to ensure we don’t will one day have to answer for their crimes.


Global warming: the chilling effect on free speech:
The demonisation of 'climate change denial' is an affront to open and rational debate.


More seriously, they began to express their conviction as an ideology, and treat those who dissented as heretics. Thus arose the widely-used phrase "climate deniers", which, with its evocations not only of heresy but also of Holocaust denial, seems to me inappropriate; I have never used it.


Like I said on another thread. Argue with skeptics all you like, call bullshit, bullshit, but you guys are really discrediting yourselves a la Godwin's law and losing the moral high ground in the process.
But hey, if you really think moonbat rheortic with antisemetic connotations is going to change minds, keep going, it's seems to be working so far...

581 nomra  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 5:37:42am

re: #408 Charles

It's because the articles in question were NOT properly reviewed, and were full of the usual deceptive talking points.

That's the assertion of the pro-AGW "tribe". Maybe it's true, maybe not, but they shouldn't have dealt with it they way they did. Scientists trump poor science by publishing better science which refutes it. Activists OTHO, boycott stuff they don't like. They acted like activists not scientists.

582 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 5:44:00am

re: #577 Bagua



Nope, you are insisting on a definition of innate as genetic so you can fling the allegation of 'racist'. In fact John is using the word in its cultural sense. That you bring up “the Chinese man who stood in front of the tank” really shows what a dramatist you are.

There is no cultural sense to the word 'innate'. It means, specifically, not stemming from things cultural.

1 : existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn
2 : belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent
3 : originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience

It specifically means that it originates from the makeup, the very being of a person, not from experience, not cultural, not from something learned.

That is what the word means.

583 caution  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 6:38:28am

Charles and other smart folks, I remain concerned.

After reading everything I can find about this from "both sides" and trying to remain open-minded, I think there was an attempt to "sell" the science. I also think there was an urgency to "believe" rather than "prove" in the community.

I'm not a scientist. I'm not a technical person. I do trust in the scientific community in general. However, this is an incredible blow to the community. They're going to have to reset. No matter what context I try to read into the various stories about his, it seems politics and agendas have spoiled the process. Is that true for all research?

As far as MMGW goes, I can accept it as fact. However, I generally think we need a moon-shot level of research and discovery to get away from fossil fuel. Conservation is my thing, but it will not work for the masses. Like the moon-shot, we must put our trust and treasure in the science of a select few and allow them to find a solution. We don't seem to do so well when "everyone has to do something" unless it's a war.

The nature lover in me wants to believe the researchers did everything proplerly, but the skeptic in me thinks they did inject an agenda, no matter how noble, into their work. I hope the GW community can reset. In today's information age, credibility goes a long way, and they've lost it.

584 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 9:37:00am

re: #578 mph

Shell stands to make billions from Cap-and-Trade (they are publicly supporting it), as the legislation will induce a shift from domestically mined coal to foreign-imported oil as the primary source of energy in this country (Oil produces less CO2 per BTU than coal, but is more expensive). Cap-and-trade makes us more dependent on foreign oil and companies like Shell. When something smells funny, follow the money...

All that means is that they're smart enough to know they can make a profit by NOT denying the science of global warming. Whereas, many of the other energy companies are in 'circle the wagons' mode, trying to protect their existing profits by funding denial groups and throwing a massive amount of noise and confusion into the debate.

Good for Shell. I hope they do profit from their alternative energy programs.

585 billbrent  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #580 nomra

Brilliant! Thanks for the links.

586 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 10:48:32am

re: #580 nomra

This has to be the most ridiculous of all the climate change denial talking points -- that using the word "denial" is supposed to invoke Holocaust denial.

Do you folks who insist on taking offense at this realize how petty and foolish it looks to people who understand that "denial" is a word like any other word, and has no exclusive connection to the Holocaust?

Never mind. I know I'm wasting my time trying to point it out.

587 Buck  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 11:33:42am

re: #574 Charles

Right, gotcha. You're fine with stealing private emails and publishing them anonymously.

Maybe in this case (CRU) it is a whistleblower?

This wasn't done just to be malicious, but rather it looks like to expose serious wrongdoing. EVEN if everything else can be explained away (tricks etc.), the ATTEMPTED deletion of data, in this case emails, in order to get around freedom of information requests should be a huge concern to anyone who hopes the peer review system will bring confidence to the results.

If we see this in the light of whistleblower actions, it does not seem to me to be something we can just ignore just because it is supposed to be private.

IF the hacking of Sarah Palins yahoo email had resulted in exposing actual illegal actions, I would have had the same feelings.

588 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 11:42:04am

re: #587 Buck

No, it was NOT a "whistleblower." This article blows holes in that attempted rationalization for criminal behavior:

ClimateGate: Addressing the ‘not a hacker’ meme.

589 exelwood  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:48pm

re: #588 Charles

No, it was NOT a "whistleblower." This article blows holes in that attempted rationalization for criminal behavior:

ClimateGate: Addressing the ‘not a hacker’ meme.

Like the full disclosure of data, models and all climate research from every source, the identity of the person(s) responsible for the publication of the CRU data must be pursued. Sunshine is the only thing that will make this go away.

590 Buck  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:29pm

re: #588 Charles

Sure, blows holes, but in no way definitive. No one is offering the hacker or "whistleblower" an opportunity to come forward and not be prosecuted (as would be right for a whistleblower).

All the article shows is that if you don't want to see a whistleblower, you wont. I am simply entertaining the idea. I am certainly not the first. The possibility does exist.

Charles are you are all concerned about the attempt to get around FOI? Can we agree that there was an attempt to delete "Information" that falls under FOI? Again, if everything else is innocent, this alone is serious. This alone should mean there was an attempted coverup. This alone should pull this out of the "Phony" file.

AND if this person is willing to openly discuss deleting protected information, and there seems to be no one confronting him about it, then perhaps not everyone, and everything is as innocent as you would like to think. The left hand does not have to fully know what the right hand is doing in order for both parties to be part of a conspiracy.

Just me being the devils advocate...

591 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:56:41pm

re: #580 nomra

That's it, you're pissing me off. Using any variation of the word 'deny' does not invoke the Holocaust! You, however, are invoking it by making these ridiculous comparisons! So, who Godwined himself?
GAZE on all of your future posts.

592 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:40:49pm

re: #590 Buck

Can we agree that there was an attempt to delete "Information" that falls under FOI?

No information was deleted.

593 nomra  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:42:40pm

re: #591 Varek Raith

Did you actually read the links I posted? The appropriate response isn't to get pissed of with me .

594 Buck  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:00:48pm

re: #592 Charles

No information was deleted.

It is not like you to spin the answer, and avoid a direct question.

Boiled down, even you can't deny that an attempt took place to knowingly delete protected information.

If emails were deleted, then information was deleted. If an email has in the subject line FOI (clearly meaning freedom of information) and in the body a request for emails to be deleted, then the author is clearly asking for protected information to be destroyed. Frankly if we can't find the emails referred to, we can assume they were deleted.

However, if nothing else, there was an attempt to delete "Information" that falls under FOI. True we don't know if anyone actually acted on the request, but just asking for protected material to be destroyed is criminal, and I know you would never accept that kind of illegal behavior.

These guys, at least Phil Jones, for certain did bad things. Simply receiving the request to destroy protected information, and not reporting it shows a real lack of judgement. There should be no debate that wrong doing took place.

You and I have this in common, we expect people to make mistakes, and we respect those who admit it. I also think you and I are allergic to cover ups. There is no good to come from covering up a mistake. Again, everyone makes them. What separates the good from the bad, the guilty from the innocent is what they do after they discover they made the mistake.

Phil Jones, or rather his actions are being investigated. What was he trying to cover up when he asked people who worked for him to deleted protected information? I don't know... but this is clear, he did not want it exposed through FOI.

595 badger1  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 8:01:24pm

re: #195 Charles

This is no "talking point".

This is reporting from the Times of London where the East Anglia CRU explicitly stated that they destroyed the raw data. They stated it was to free up storage space.

They stated that processed and "homogenized" data was kept.

Here is the link: [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Here is the lede of the article:

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

596 amosz2  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 2:45:13am

re: #588 Charles

Why are we still discussing whether it was hacked or whether it was leaked. It makes absolutely no difference.

In all seriousness hackers in the UK have received 3 month sentences for millions of dollars of damages, so what exactly is the guy facing if caught?
6 months good behaviour, some community service, a warning?

The only reason anyone makes a fuss about this is because this theft gives ammo to skeptics. I am not even on the skeptic side! But even i can see that being all high and mighty about this theft is about the equivalent of being grossly offended by jaywalking or speeding.

And i am sure people caught speeding in some countries will have larger jail sentences then this person if they ever get one.

597 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 10:05:32am

re: #594 Buck

It is not like you to spin the answer, and avoid a direct question.

Boiled down, even you can't deny that an attempt took place to knowingly delete protected information.

I'm not denying anything. I'm telling you that no data was deleted. And no one knows whether any FOIA-requested emails were deleted. The emails in that package of data were deliberately cherry-picked to present an incriminating appearance, and you're willing to accept the cherry-picking as being a truthful representation because it plays into your own prejudices against accepting the scientific evidence for global warming.

598 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 10:07:00am

re: #595 badger1

This is no "talking point".

This is reporting from the Times of London where the East Anglia CRU explicitly stated that they destroyed the raw data. They stated it was to free up storage space.

They stated that processed and "homogenized" data was kept.

Here is the link: [Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

That article in the Times was FALSE. I've already posted about this. It was untrue. I'm not going to go through this again - read my posts about it. There are two already.

A perfect example of relentlessly repeating false talking points, after they've been debunked.


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