Audio: The Secret Political Reach of ‘The Family’

US News • Views: 3,797

Here’s a great example of what I mean when I say the religious right has a stranglehold on the GOP: NPR’s interview with Jeff Sharlet, author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power — a book I highly recommend. This is no conspiracy theory; it’s all very well-documented and very disturbing.

Among other subjects, Sharlet discusses The Family’s influence behind an effort in Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals: The Secret Political Reach Of ‘The Family’.

Bad craziness on steroids.

MP3 Audio

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302 comments
1 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:00:05pm

I am glad this has been posted. These are frightening people.

2 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:00:08pm

Perhaps those in The Family who want Uganda to adopt that law should go live there.

3 Kragar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:01:13pm

Never cared for zealots of any creed.

4 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:01:27pm
Among other subjects, Sharlet discusses The Family’s influence behind an effort in Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals

Sounds like shari'a.

5 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:04:39pm

Effing Deadheads.

/

6 Kragar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:04:47pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

Sounds like shari'a.

No, its completely different. Shari'a is based on the lies spread by Mohammed. This is done according to God's will.

//or some other equally nonsensical reasoning

7 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:04:56pm

Uganda anti-gay bill supported by US Congressmen and Evangelists

Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) has taken at least 20 "missionary" trips overseas since he's been in office, allegedly paid for by U.S. taxpayers, using military transport. He is especially fond of Uganda, boasting that he has "adopted" the East African nation. In fact, he is so fond of Uganda, he has invited its leaders to become members of the not-so secret, secret society known as the Family in D.C., according to Jeff Sharlet, whose new book, "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power" exposes just that.

SNIP

According to Sharlet, Inhofe took David Bahati under his wing, making him a core member of the Family. Bahati is the author of Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill. The Bill creates a new crime called "aggravated homosexuality" in Uganda and imposes automatic life imprisonment or the death penalty for its offense. "Aggravated homosexuality" is defined by the Bill as sex with a disabled person, having HIV/AIDS, use of drugs or alcohol that leads to gay sex, knowing a gay person and not reporting it, or speaking positively about same-sex marriage.

SNIP

8 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:05:19pm

Sharlet's Wiki.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

9 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:06:35pm
The Family, or the Fellowship, is in its own words an "invisible" association, though it has always been organized around public men. Senator Sam Brownback (R., Kansas), chair of a weekly, off -the-record meeting of religious right groups called the Values Action Team (VAT), is an active member, as is Representative Joe Pitts (R., Pennsylvania), an avuncular would-be theocrat who chairs the House version of the VAT.

I can't get the image of Gen Hackman leaving the Birdcage in drag out of my mind.

10 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:06:58pm

Bartholomew Thomas "Bart" Stupak (born February 29, 1952), has been a Democratic member of the United States House of Representatives since 1993, representing Michigan's 1st congressional district.

11 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:08:04pm

Until this week, I'd never heard of this organization, or Sharlet's book. Wiki has a bunch of stuff on the organization and all the politicians who have at one time been associated, and it's a literal who's who. All manner of President from both sides of the aisle have gone to their prayer breakfasts, and among those who were actual members include Nixon and Ford (although Nixon became member after his resignation).

It's an organization with an apparent long reach.

The relationship the organization has with the Ugandan law is just vile.

12 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:08:40pm

re: #7 Gus 802

...knowing a gay person and not reporting it...

WTF is that?! Is Uganda run by Sharia Law or something?

13 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:09:11pm

Huh. Thanks, Charles-- I'd dismissed this as conspiracy theory stuff. I'll take it a lot more seriously now.

14 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:09:12pm

re: #9 Ben Hur

I can't get the image of Gen Hackman leaving the Birdcage in drag out of my mind.

Youtube Video
15 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:09:20pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

Sounds like shari'a.

Sometimes I wonder. Especially when I listen to reports like this. It seems as though we ourselves live in under our very own version of theocracy.

16 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:09:42pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

Sounds like shari'a.

I heard this interview when it was originally broadcast. I don't recall that Sharlet ever mentions it, but just for the sake of clarity the law doesn't make homosexuality a capitol offense; it seeks to institute the death penalty for someone who knows they have AIDs to have sex with...someone of the same sex. So yes, it's every bit as bad as presented in the end, and even more stupid, in fact, but it doesn't seek to criminalize simply being gay. I was slightly miffed to learn this later, rather than from Sharlet, because in some ways this is even worse.

On a related topic: can anyone direct me to independent research that discusses this group's activities? Everything I've checked so far leads straight back to Sharlet when it comes to specifics, and I'd like to get a broader base of information on it. A lot of Sharlet's reports have an almost Illuminati-reminiscent tinge to them; a few additional sources would be welcome.

17 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:11:10pm

re: #12 bosforus

WTF is that?! Is Uganda run by Sharia Law or something?

From Wiki:

Roman Catholic 42%
Protestant 36%
Islam 12%
Other or None 10%

President:

Yoweri Museveni
Religion - Born again (Christianity)

18 darthstar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:11:42pm

Sharlet wrote an article for Harper's in March 2003 about his time with "The Family"...It's a very good read, and something you can access now, without buying the book...though I do recommend the book as well.

[Link: www.harpers.org...]

Fundamentalism is just as dangerous in Xianity as it is in Islam.

19 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:12:01pm

re: #16 SixDegrees

See the link in No. 11.

20 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:12:05pm

re: #16 SixDegrees

So much of the information is sourced back to Sharlet that I'm surprised that others haven't done any more digging into the matter.

21 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #12 bosforus

WTF is that?! Is Uganda run by Sharia Law or something?

Hardly.

Uganda/religion

This is the whacked out Dominionist crap we've been discussing on intelligent design threads- now they're getting their hands on a third-world country they can push around. If these nuts had their way- they'd run America like this.

22 darthstar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #5 Ben Hur

Effing Deadheads.

Hey...I resemble that remark.

23 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:13:10pm

re: #18 darthstar

Do you have a problem with the word "Christianity"?

24 Spider Mensch  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:13:38pm

if that's a family..I'll stay part of the orphanage!

and we all thought islam had the market cornered on crazy..silly rabbits!

25 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:01pm

-Excuse me, I know a gay person and I need to report him.
-Very good, sir. Here is the form. You can take a seat over there and fill it out.

Frickin' fundies.

26 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:02pm

re: #16 SixDegrees

From lawhawk's No. 11, Coe does not grant interviews.

27 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:26pm

Is this family related to Fred Phelps?

28 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #19 MandyManners

If you read through the cites on wiki, nearly all of them go back to Sharlet's book released in 2008.

29 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #22 darthstar

Hey...I resemble that remark.

Haha.

I figured you would get the reference.

There are a few of us on LGF.

30 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #11 lawhawk

Until this week, I'd never heard of this organization, or Sharlet's book. Wiki has a bunch of stuff on the organization and all the politicians who have at one time been associated, and it's a literal who's who. All manner of President from both sides of the aisle have gone to their prayer breakfasts, and among those who were actual members include Nixon and Ford (although Nixon became member after his resignation).

It's an organization with an apparent long reach.

The relationship the organization has with the Ugandan law is just vile.

All of the stuff at Wiki is taken directly from Sharlet, going all the way back to the page's creation. Has anyone else looked into this? The organization itself certainly exists, and has been around since the 30s. A long time to stay under the radar, particularly given the prominence of their members.

31 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:15:17pm

re: #28 lawhawk

If you read through the cites on wiki, nearly all of them go back to Sharlet's book released in 2008.

Did you see my link to Sharlet's Wiki in No. 8?

32 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:15:43pm

re: #19 MandyManners

See the link in No. 11.

I started there last week; it seems like all the information there originates with Sharlet's work. I was looking for something done independently, if it exists.

33 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:16:09pm

re: #15 Gus 802

Sometimes I wonder. Especially when I listen to reports like this. It seems as though we ourselves live in under our very own version of theocracy.

The radical Christian fundamentalsts do have their own version of shari'a, but it's a far cry from being practiced here. Here is some information of one of their ideological books:

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

34 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:16:34pm

re: #32 SixDegrees

I started there last week; it seems like all the information there originates with Sharlet's work. I was looking for something done independently, if it exists.

I've found nothing. But, as I posted above somewhere, Coe does not grant interviews.

35 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:16:53pm

John Ensign (R) - Extramarital affair

36 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:17:25pm

re: #26 MandyManners

From lawhawk's No. 11, Coe does not grant interviews.

So I'd heard. How did Sharlet come by his information?

37 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:17:40pm

re: #35 Gus 802

John Ensign (R) - Extramarital affair

Oops, wrong link.

John Ensign (R) - Extramarital affair

38 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:17:53pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

So I'd heard. How did Sharlet come by his information?

Beats me.

39 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:18:45pm

The Family...The Family.

Why does that name ring a bell?

Oh, right. Little business involving Sharon Tate and her unborn baby.

I believe the head of The Family did some time in jail?

40 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

Thanks.

Dominionists.

41 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #23 MandyManners

Isn't X historically a symbol for Christ?

42 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:21:11pm

Didn't Sharlot live there on C Street with the gang?

43 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:21:37pm

re: #41 Jeff In Ohio

Isn't X historically a symbol for Christ?

Not around here.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:21:44pm

re: #16 SixDegrees

I heard this interview when it was originally broadcast. I don't recall that Sharlet ever mentions it, but just for the sake of clarity the law doesn't make homosexuality a capitol offense; it seeks to institute the death penalty for someone who knows they have AIDs to have sex with...someone of the same sex. So yes, it's every bit as bad as presented in the end, and even more stupid, in fact, but it doesn't seek to criminalize simply being gay. I was slightly miffed to learn this later, rather than from Sharlet, because in some ways this is even worse.

This is sort of whitewashing it. How I've read this: "under an anti-homosexuality bill currently before Uganda's parliament. If the accused person is HIV positive or a serial offender, or a "person of authority" over the other partner, or if the "victim" is under 18, a conviction will result in the death penalty." is that the serial offender bit means if you're caught having too much gay sex, they give you the death penalty.

And the minimum sentence is still life imprisonment. Not for having AIDS and having gay sex. Just for having gay sex.

45 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:21:50pm

That Ugandan bill is scary stuff. Death penalty for gays. It sounds so medieval and backwards.

46 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #18 darthstar

Fundamentalism is just as dangerous in Xianity as it is in Islam.

As a Xian i am saddened to agree.

47 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:23:10pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

Death penalty for gays. It sounds so medieval and backwards.

Sounds like quite a few religions. Take your pick.

48 darthstar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #23 MandyManners

Do you have a problem with the word "Christianity"?

Not at all. Sometimes when I'm typing fast I use Xianity, Xians, Xmas, etc...and no, I'm not taking the christ out of christmas.

49 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #43 MandyManners

Not around here.


"Here" as in where I live.

50 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:24:09pm

re: #47 MrSilverDragon

Sounds like quite a few religions. Take your pick.

It sounds like a great argument for keeping church and state separated.

51 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #43 MandyManners

Don't meant to pry, I guess it's offensive around there? I only ask because my bass player, an evangelical pastor, uses it all the time.

52 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:24:44pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

That Ugandan bill is scary stuff. Death penalty for gays. It sounds so medieval and backwards.

It applies to more that gay in Uganda. Here's part of the transcript:

Mr. SHARLET: Well, the new legislation adds to this something called aggravated homosexuality. And this can include, for instance, if a gay man has sex with another man who is disabled, that's aggravated homosexuality, and that man can be - I suppose both, actually, could be put to death for this. The use of any drugs or any intoxicants in seeking gay sex - in other words, you go to a bar and you buy a guy a drink, you're subject to the death penalty if you go home and sleep together after that. What it also does is it extends this outward, so that if you know a gay person and you don't report it, that could mean - you don't report your son or daughter, you can go to prison.

And it goes further, to say that any kind of promotion of these ideas of homosexuality, including by foreigners, can result in prison terms. Talking about same sex-marriage positively can lead you to imprisonment for life. And it's really kind of a perfect case study in the export of a lot of American, largely evangelical ideas about homosexuality exported to Uganda, which then takes them to their logical end.

53 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #43 MandyManners

Not around here.

re: #48 darthstar

Not at all. Sometimes when I'm typing fast I use Xianity, Xians, Xmas, etc...and no, I'm not taking the christ out of christmas.

Christ in greek begins with Chi (x), thus Xmas and Xian for those of us who value keystroke minimization.

54 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:25:40pm

re: #41 Jeff In Ohio

Isn't X historically a symbol for Christ?

It's all greek to me.

55 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:25:46pm

Related to the topic: I found this site, and thought I'd share

Liars for Jesus

56 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:25:51pm

re: #48 darthstar

Not at all. Sometimes when I'm typing fast I use Xianity, Xians, Xmas, etc...and no, I'm not taking the christ out of christmas.

Honestly, I have never seen anyone use the 'X' for Christ in any other word other than Christmas. I used to be on the "X takes the Christ out of Christmas" side for a while but according to Wikipedia it's been going on for about 1,000 years. Apparently XP is a traditional abbreviation for Christ. I wonder if Windows knew that.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

57 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:26:26pm

re: #54 cliffster

Don't drop the soap.

58 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #41 Jeff In Ohio

Isn't X historically a symbol for Christ?

Sort of. The Chi-Rho symbol, a superimposed 'X' and 'R' which form the first two letters of 'Christ' in Greek, was used frequently in the past as a Christogram, and still appears in many churches.

The further abbreviation to simply 'X' is a more modern convention, and probably stems more from the lack of the proper character in any ordinary typefaces than from an actual representation. I'm fairly certain it derives from the ancient chi-rho formation, though.

59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:27:15pm

I know a bunch of Christians. I know a bunch of "Right-Wing" Christians. I know of no Christians that would support the execution of gays.

I do know a bunch of Christians whom posed the question "Would you support the execution of gays" would ask the person, "Have you lost your fucking mind?!?!"

Just sayin'.

60 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:27:15pm

re: #44 WindUpBird

This is sort of whitewashing it. How I've read this: "under an anti-homosexuality bill currently before Uganda's parliament. If the accused person is HIV positive or a serial offender, or a "person of authority" over the other partner, or if the "victim" is under 18, a conviction will result in the death penalty." is that the serial offender bit means if you're caught having too much gay sex, they give you the death penalty.

And the minimum sentence is still life imprisonment. Not for having AIDS and having gay sex. Just for having gay sex.

Thanks for clarifying.

Fuck you for accusing me of an attempted whitewash, asshole.

61 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:27:16pm

re: #48 darthstar

Not at all. Sometimes when I'm typing fast I use Xianity, Xians, Xmas, etc...and no, I'm not taking the christ out of christmas.

Wikipedia agrees...

62 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:27:56pm

The only person I've seen use "Xian" and the like was a flaming asshole who happened to be rabidly anti-Christian on a military board years ago.

63 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:28:04pm

re: #56 bosforus

Got to it before I did; good work!

64 J.S.  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:28:11pm

re: #11 lawhawk

I've never heard of this organization either prior to a few days ago -- I also looked up a wiki article on the "Fellowship", and found Jimmy Carter was also a member.

65 darthstar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:28:28pm

re: #61 Surabaya Stew

Thanks...

66 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:28:42pm

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know a bunch of Christians. I know a bunch of "Right-Wing" Christians. I know of no Christians that would support the execution of gays.

I do know a bunch of Christians whom posed the question "Would you support the execution of gays" would ask the person, "Have you lost your fucking mind?!?!"

Just sayin'.


now you know one more

67 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #44 WindUpBird

And there is a provision for those who don't turn in those who break that law - they too would get lengthy prison sentences.

More here (along with a Rick Warren connection).

68 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #62 MandyManners

The only person I've seen use "Xian" and the like was a flaming asshole who happened to be rabidly anti-Christian on a military board years ago.

Well, there's replacement for the sake of replacement and then there are people like that guy. Some people are just a-holes.

69 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:02pm

I don't mind if someone calls me an Xian. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

70 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #17 Gus 802

From Wiki:

Roman Catholic 42%
Protestant 36%
Islam 12%
Other or None 10%

President:

Yoweri Museveni
Religion - Born again (Christianity)

Trivia: Yoweri Museveni's father served in the British army during WWII in the King's African Rifles, Seventh Regiment. His name means "son of a man of the Seventh".

71 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:04pm

re: #13 Obdicut

The "it's just liberal loony left lies" has been the reaction to most people I've tried to share this info with.

(and I've used the "Xian" thing a few times. I heard a teen prayer-group leader years ago defend the notation in an address at church a few years back; he liked "Gen X" (of which he was a member, obv.) being associated with Jesus through the "X means Jesus" shorthand.

72 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:08pm

It starts off sounding like laws against gay rape, then kind of slides into Iran's territorial waters.

73 brookly red  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:32pm

re: #64 J.S.

I've never heard of this organization either prior to a few days ago -- I also looked up a wiki article on the "Fellowship", and found Jimmy Carter was also a member.

Hmmm, so not just the GOP then?

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:30:52pm

re: #60 SixDegrees

Thanks for clarifying.

Fuck you for accusing me of an attempted whitewash, asshole.

Uh, I actually didn't mean you specifically, I meant whatever source you got the info from. :/

75 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:31:38pm

re: #66 Aceofwhat?

now you know one more

Two.

76 darthstar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:32:25pm

re: #62 MandyManners

The only person I've seen use "Xian" and the like was a flaming asshole who happened to be rabidly anti-Christian on a military board years ago.

Me, I'm a recovering catholic. Catholic grade school, then a Baptist high school for a year before going to public high. The baptists cured me of my faith, but I don't hold the faith of others against them. I wrote an extensive diary about it at dKos a week or so back

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Feel free to read it if you like. Personally, I think god is a metaphor for the self. That's not to discount your or anyone else's beliefs...it's just mine.

Incidentally, as you're obviously a devout Christian, what exactly is the meaning of the icon you use by your name?

77 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:33:16pm

Back on topic here; I had heard about the group before, but this interview really puts me on edge. If even 1/4 of the things Mr. Sharlet writes about are true, then 'The Family' should skyrocket close to the top of any list of subversive organizations in the United States.

78 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:33:27pm

re: #73 brookly red

Stupak is a Democrat.

79 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:33:41pm

I once knew a turkey who had been baptized. He was a XXXian.

80 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:33:43pm

The creepy voice of Pat Robertson talking about how the gays were the reason for 9/11 and Katrina, etc. keeps ringing in my head reading about this. It seems that kind of talk leads to what we're seeing in Uganda, justifying that kind of evil.

81 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:33:48pm

Gotta' git.

82 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:34:24pm

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know a bunch of Christians. I know a bunch of "Right-Wing" Christians. I know of no Christians that would support the execution of gays.

I do know a bunch of Christians whom posed the question "Would you support the execution of gays" would ask the person, "Have you lost your fucking mind?!?!"

Just sayin'.

I agree. But unfortunately, there are those who would happily stand by and watch such a thing happen without intervening. I'm thinking of those who've proclaimed, for instance, that gays deserve to get AIDS and die, because it's God's punishment for loving the wrong person.

Not the same as openly calling for their execution, but still cheering when it occurs.

Yes, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and others as vile and loathesome - I'm talking about you.

83 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:35:30pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

Uh, I actually didn't mean you specifically, I meant whatever source you got the info from. :/

Sorry, then. I'm real touchy on this subject.

84 brookly red  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:35:42pm

re: #78 Jeff In Ohio

Stupak is a Democrat.

Thanks, I had never heard of any of this... and not quite sure what to make of it.

85 AK-47%  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:35:51pm

America becoming even more a bad parody of itself

[Link: www.shakennotshattered.com...]

There was a song of that title from "Team America",

which did not prevent this fellow from missing the irony of it all

[Link: vids.myspace.com...]

buck-oh-five, it is...

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #83 SixDegrees

Sorry, then. I'm real touchy on this subject.

It's all good, I meant no offense. :)

87 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #80 allegro

The creepy voice of Pat Robertson talking about how the gays were the reason for 9/11 and Katrina, etc. keeps ringing in my head reading about this. It seems that kind of talk leads to what we're seeing in Uganda, justifying that kind of evil.

Yes, it does.

88 J.S.  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:36:12pm

re: #73 brookly red

Apparently the "Fellowship of Christians" comprises both the political Right and Left (according to wiki, anyway.)

89 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:36:16pm

re: #76 darthstar

Incidentally, as you're obviously a devout Christian, what exactly is the meaning of the icon you use by your name?

re: #81 MandyManners

Gotta' git.

Mandy's favorite rebuke to people she doesn't agree with is "go piss up a rope". That little picture is Calvin peeing on the Arabic word for "rope". Right, Mandy?

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #82 SixDegrees

Faced with someone with such an opinion, I would say, "Have you lost your fucking mind?" I think that's biblical... Well not really. But I also believe Jesus would paraphrase my sentiment.

91 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:37:47pm

You know the interesting thing is reading about Ford's membership as I read that he and Mrs. Ford became supporters of gay rights and of abortion rights as well. Was also surprised to see the name of Mark Hatfield on the wiki entry as well since while I know the guy was anti abortion I had assumed he was a supporter of gay rights as well.

92 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #88 J.S.

Yes, they both want to persecute the gays and relieve the women of control of their bodies.

They just disagree who's paying for it.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:39:23pm

re: #89 Cato the Elder

Sure. Why not?

94 KernelPanic  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:39:41pm

These folks also own a house on C Street in Washington, it was called a church for many years and enjoyed tax-exempt status while at the same time more than a few members of congress lived there. They just recently lost their tax exemption on most of the property after being visited by DC officials who determined that quite a bit of the space was residential in nature.

Many people have questioned what goes on in that C-street house, and more than a few congressmen who've been caught in sex scandals recently have turned out to be "faithful" members of The Family who were living (and possibly sinning wildly) at the C-street address.

Just one link: [Link: michiganmessenger.com...]

95 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:41:11pm

Here's a link to the article he mentions an applauds in the end from the "Christian right" magazine The World.

All in the family

Behind the scandal-tainted C Street house is an organization big on protecting its own and small on church ties and theology %P% Emily Belz, Edward Lee Pitts

Pay site. Looks like it's 5 dollars for a month.

96 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:41:22pm

And against all this is the very real backdrop of a huge AIDS epidemic that infects a significant portion of the population throughout Africa. So, throw religious dogma into the mix of ineffective governance, lack of available medical treatment (though the US significantly ramped up assistance throughout the Bush Administration and into the Obama Administration), and long held beliefs and practices throughout Africa.

This law may result in an even wider spread of AIDS - because people will not seek treatment because they may get branded as homosexual by this law and become subject to its harsh measures.

I don't care who's behind the law. It is just sickening.

97 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:41:34pm

re: #94 KernelPanic

True. One member of the Family who's been in the news recently: Mark Sanford.

98 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:41:59pm

Here is a much longer, 40 min, interview with Alex Jones.
here's part 1:

Youtube Video

Take a listen to this and see if you still hold the same opinion about him. If you want to skip ahead to the third part you can listen to them discuss how the Family coined the phrase "the new world order" all the way back in 1945 and how they wanted to kidnap and kill H.G. Wells, and the nazi connections. Nooo, no conspiracy theorists here.

99 That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:01pm

Now hear hear Charles.

This is getting silly.

The real threat are the Bolsheviks running around trying to make everyone the same. Why, these Bolshies are constantly plotting to unleash the proles on the high and mighty who make civilization function.

Let me remind you - these are people who make jokes about breaking wind and whatnot - not the sorts we want running the affairs of state.

100 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:03pm

re: #39 Cato the Elder

The Family...The Family.

Why does that name ring a bell?

Oh, right. Little business involving Sharon Tate and her unborn baby.

I believe the head of The Family did some time in jail?

Different family. The name has been used by several unrelated groups vying for "worst example".

101 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:08pm

re: #94 KernelPanic

.

..members of The Family who were living (and possibly sinning wildly) at the C-street address.

As I understand it, that is not a concept that applies to them, just to the "lesser people".

102 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:21pm

re: #62 MandyManners

The only person I've seen use "Xian" and the like was a flaming asshole who happened to be rabidly anti-Christian on a military board years ago.

It is a Xianist plot. /

103 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:42:46pm

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Faced with someone with such an opinion, I would say, "Have you lost your fucking mind?" I think that's biblical... Well not really. But I also believe Jesus would paraphrase my sentiment.

Jesus spoke in the common tongue of the time. If he came back today, I wouldn't be shocked to hear him quote you directly.

104 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:43:29pm

Why in the freak are we interfereing with foreign government legislation without invitation?!

This is scary.

105 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:43:45pm

This post is a little misleading. The bill (which I just read in its entirety) does not authorize people to be executed for gay sex. It does though for those who gay rape their own children, drug some one and then gay rape them, gay rape a minor, have gay sex with aids, etc. Here is the actual language from the bill;

3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the

(a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years;

(b) offender is a person living with HIV;

(c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed;

(d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed;

(e) victim of the offence is a person with disability;

(f) offender is a serial offender, or

(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex,

(2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death.

(3) Where a person is charged with the offence under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.


The bill does contain other legal actions for various gay activities, but it is nothing more then what we still have on our legal books in the USA. It may be strong legislation, but it isn't how it is being sold on NPR or this site. Here is the link to the bill itself;
[Link: www.boxturtlebulletin.com...]


The statement in this post by Charles "...Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals:..." Is a Lie if you want to be intellectual honest it should say "Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexual rape." Come on Charles I expect more from you.

106 Kragar  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:43:46pm

re: #97 Charles

True. One member of the Family who's been in the news recently: Mark Sanford.

According to their own beliefs, Mark is looking at a death sentence then. I guess if you pay your dues and hold up the official party lines, they'll cut you some slack then.

107 J.S.  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:44:35pm

Just looking at this (from, I admit, a fairly superficial vantage point) it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

108 brookly red  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #100 Decatur Deb

Different family. The name has been used by several unrelated groups vying for "worst example".


Huh, "the family" always meant the mob round here...

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:44:47pm

re: #103 SixDegrees

Me neither. Ceptin' I doubt I have much to say He would quote... but, me neither...

110 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:45:00pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Here's a link to the article he mentions an applauds in the end from the "Christian right" magazine The World.

All in the family

Pay site. Looks like it's 5 dollars for a month.

Here it is in full -- gratis.

All in the family

111 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:45:02pm

re: #56 bosforus

(snip) Apparently XP is a traditional abbreviation for Christ. I wonder if Windows knew that.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Chi Rho is common decoration in RC art and vestments.

112 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:45:35pm

re: #97 Charles

True. One member of the Family who's been in the news recently: Mark Sanford.

Special People, all of them. They know what God wants them to do with their lives, and coincidentally it always turns out to be whatever they feel like doing.

113 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:46:32pm

re: #109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Me neither. Ceptin' I doubt I have much to say He would quote... but, me neither...

I also suspect Jesus would like cake.

Because everyone likes cake.

114 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:47:09pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

Come on Charles I expect more from you.


No you don't. Every comment you've made here (about 200) averages -1 karma. Why are you even here? You're a troll. Scram.

115 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:48:10pm

re: #113 SixDegrees

I also suspect Jesus would like cake.

I wouldn't mind having him around to keep me supplied with wine. :)

116 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:48:46pm

re: #108 brookly red

Huh, "the family" always meant the mob round here...

Nah. Dat's "Da Family".

117 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:49:10pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

This post is a little misleading. The bill (which I just read in its entirety) does not authorize people to be executed for gay sex. It does though for those who gay rape their own children, drug some one and then gay rape them, gay rape a minor, have gay sex with aids, etc. Here is the actual language from the bill;

3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the

(a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years;

(b) offender is a person living with HIV;

(c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed;

(d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed;

(e) victim of the offence is a person with disability;

(f) offender is a serial offender, or

(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex,

(2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death.

(3) Where a person is charged with the offence under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.

The bill does contain other legal actions for various gay activities, but it is nothing more then what we still have on our legal books in the USA. It may be strong legislation, but it isn't how it is being sold on NPR or this site. Here is the link to the bill itself;
[Link: www.boxturtlebulletin.com...]

The statement in this post by Charles "...Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals:..." Is a Lie if you want to be intellectual honest it should say "Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexual rape." Come on Charles I expect more from you.

Why, pray, do you need a separate law for gay rape when rape is illegal all by itself? Mmm?

Sort of like why I'm generally against "hate crime" laws.

118 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:49:46pm

re: #105 lrsshadow


how would you define "serial offender", thou of higher expectations?

119 simoom  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:49:57pm

NBC's report on Doug Coe / The Family from the election coverage last year:

Youtube Video
120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:50:24pm

re: #113 SixDegrees

He better...

"Will there be chocolate cake in heaven?
Dear Lord, I really want to know;
Will there be chocolate cake in heaven? Sweet Jesus
If there ain't Who the hell wants to go?"
-Larry Gatlin (paraphrased)

121 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:50:57pm

re: #114 bosforus

No you don't. Every comment you've made here (about 200) averages -1 karma. Why are you even here? You're a troll. Scram.

Oh I am sorry, I have been on this site for years and don't recall a ban on dissenting voices. If that is the case I can certainly go elsewhere and leave you to your echo chamber.

However this is Charles site and I will let him un-invite me if he wants as he was the one who invited me to this site.

122 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:51:13pm

re: #117 Cato the Elder

Why, pray, do you need a separate law for gay rape when rape is illegal all by itself? Mmm?

Sort of like why I'm generally against "hate crime" laws.


It's so good to find someone else who dislikes 'hate crime' laws. you know, because if my mom gets killed and doesn't belong to some special group, it's not as bad...right?

123 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:51:50pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

It's interesting seeing the deniers in action.

The bill clearly calls for life imprisonment for gay sex. I assume you don't disagree with that reading of the bill? Your big concern on how we're being misled is that it's "only" life imprisonment and not death?
Ok, fine: To the death part! Look at what it takes to qualify for the death penalty: "offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex."
In other words, buying a potential mate a drink at a bar. Or serving wine to a friend in the privacy of your home. If gay sex follows, you can be put to death. Is the post "misleading" still?

124 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:51:54pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

See that number "3" right next to "Aggravated homosexuality?" That indicates it is part 3 of the bill. It's 18 part altogether. The text of the bill can be found here in PDF form:

Anti Homosexuality Bill I 2009 THE ANTI HOMOSEXUALITY BILL, 2009

HTML version (poor quality)

I believe you owe Charles an apology.

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:52:13pm

re: #121 lrsshadow

I wasn't crazy about your tone, but support your right to say what you said.

126 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:52:19pm

re: #118 Aceofwhat?

how would you define "serial offender", thou of higher expectations?

The way I read it the "serial offender" is set in that subsection of the law, for example a serial child gay rapist.

127 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:52:25pm

re: #121 lrsshadow

However this is Charles site and I will let him un-invite me if he wants as he was the one who invited me to this site.

Downding for not even attempting to form the possessive of "Charles".

128 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:52:58pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

The statement in this post by Charles "...Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals:..." Is a Lie if you want to be intellectual honest it should say "Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexual rape." Come on Charles I expect more from you.

Well, I don't really expect anything more from you.

129 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:53:06pm

re: #114 bosforus

No you don't. Every comment you've made here (about 200) averages -1 karma. Why are you even here? You're a troll. Scram.

Karma: -206


lrsshadow
(Logged in)
Registered since: May 25, 2007 at 7:40 am
No. of comments posted: 214
No. of links posted: 0


And not a very good one at that.

130 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

See my post above, near the top. This is how Sharlet presents it in his interview, where he is flogging his new book.

It's an omission. It's not completely accurate.

But a lie it most certainly is not.

131 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:55:14pm

re: #124 Gus 802

Yes like I said "homosexual rape" and not "homosexual activities."

I don't support the bill, however I prefer clarity to agreement and it is being intellectually dishonest to say that Uganda is going to execute people for being gay.

132 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:56:15pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

It seems that way, but from your link:

2. The offence of homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offence of homosexuality if-

(a) he penetrates the anus or mouth of another person of the same sex with his penis or any other sexual contraption;

(b) he or she uses any object or sexual contraption to penetrate or stimulate sexual organ of a person of the same sex;

(e) he or she touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.

(2) A person who commits an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.

3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the

(a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years;

(b) offender is a person living with HIV;

(c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed;

(d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed;

(e) victim of the offence is a person with disability;

(f) offender is a serial offender, or

(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex,

(2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death.

(3) Where a person is charged with the offence under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.

Homosexuality itself is listed as an offense and separated in the bill from Aggrevated Homosexuality (rape).

133 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:56:28pm

re: #121 lrsshadow

Oh I am sorry, I have been on this site for years and don't recall a ban on dissenting voices. If that is the case I can certainly go elsewhere and leave you to your echo chamber.

However this is Charles site and I will let him un-invite me if he wants as he was the one who invited me to this site.

Dissenting voice is one thing. My voice is frequently dissenting. However, the "Come on Charles I expect more from you" is pretty rude.

134 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:57:08pm

Interesting that this doesn't apply to heterosexual rape, by their definition. Guess it's OK for a man to ply a woman with liquor to get a little, but should it be same sex, it's the death penalty.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:58:54pm

re: #133 cliffster

S'what I meant by tone...

136 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:59:29pm

re: #121 lrsshadow

However this is Charles site and I will let him un-invite me if he wants as he was the one who invited me to this site.

Well aren't you special?

137 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 12:59:50pm

re: #134 allegro

Interesting that this doesn't apply to heterosexual rape, by their definition. Guess it's OK for a man to ply a woman with liquor to get a little, but should it be same sex, it's the death penalty.

Type 'africa' along with 'rape' into Google. If you have a strong stomach. Heterosexual rape is incredibly common in Africa (one reason why AIDS is rampant there, among others) and is viewed with pride by many men.

138 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #133 cliffster

Dissenting voice is one thing. My voice is frequently dissenting. However, the "Come on Charles I expect more from you" is pretty rude.

Yah you have a point there, but I have seen a lot of blanket statements made with a broadbrush in "shock jock" fashion and I do come to this site, because Charles has been very clear and honest in his blogging, and yes I do put him up as a trusted source and I do expect more from Charles then I would from someone like Beck, Rush, Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer, or Other talking heads.

139 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: #124 Gus 802

See that number "3" right next to "Aggravated homosexuality?" That indicates it is part 3 of the bill. It's 18 part altogether. The text of the bill can be found here in PDF form:

Anti Homosexuality Bill I 2009 THE ANTI HOMOSEXUALITY BILL, 2009

HTML version (poor quality)

I believe you owe Charles an apology.

(I'm not holding my breath.)

140 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:01:20pm

re: #131 lrsshadow

Yes like I said "homosexual rape" and not "homosexual activities."

I don't support the bill, however I prefer clarity to agreement and it is being intellectually dishonest to say that Uganda is going to execute people for being gay.

Intellectual honesty? Can you even bring yourself to type that without imploding?

You left out the part before the "aggravated homosexuality" clause.

Just a minor oversight, right?

Here's what it says:

2. The offence of homosexuality.

(1) A person commits the offence of homosexuality if-

(a) he penetrates the anus or mouth of another person of the same sex with his penis or any other sexual contraption;

(b) he or she uses any object or sexual contraption to penetrate or stimulate sexual organ of a person of the same sex;

(e) he or she touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.

(2) A person who commits an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.

Nothing anti-gay there, right?

You know where you can put your intellectual honesty? Right next to your moral purity.

141 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:01:31pm

re: #134 allegro

Interesting that this doesn't apply to heterosexual rape, by their definition. Guess it's OK for a man to ply a woman with liquor to get a little, but should it be same sex, it's the death penalty.

Or it could be they already have laws regarding heterosexual rape:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

142 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:01:36pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

It's so good to find someone else who dislikes 'hate crime' laws. you know, because if my mom gets killed and doesn't belong to some special group, it's not as bad...right?

There are a few around here, including myself.
However - it has been explained here that the "hate crime" designation is a way to indicate that certain crimes against certain groups go beyond the crime itself for the reason that that commission of the crime is an attempt to intimidate or terrorize a particular GROUP, in addition to the actual crime that was committed. That adds a bit of clarity to the reason that 'hate crimes" exist; but I'm not one who is convinced it's necessary.

143 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:01:55pm

re: #132 Ben Hur

So according to 3-1-b:

3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the
(b) offender is a person living with HIV;

A gay couple in Uganda where one or both are HIV positive would face the death penalty.

Later it applies to "repeat offenders."

Then we have to consider "judicial abuse" of this law.

144 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:02:02pm

re: #138 lrsshadow

... and I do expect more from Charles then I would from someone like Beck, Rush, Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer, or Other talking heads.

Since 4 or 5 of us have shown that the post isn't misleading, I am glad that Charles was able to live up to your expectations.

145 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:02:37pm

re: #134 allegro

Interesting that this doesn't apply to heterosexual rape, by their definition. Guess it's OK for a man to ply a woman with liquor to get a little, but should it be same sex, it's the death penalty.

And vice versa, as I have been the victim of this trick multiple times.

146 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:02:43pm

re: #140 Cato the Elder

OH so then Life Imprisonment is the same as execution huh? I must have missed that memo.

147 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:03:40pm

re: #126 lrsshadow

The way I read it the "serial offender" is set in that subsection of the law, for example a serial child gay rapist.

A curious take, imho. Given that one instance of child gay rape already deserves the death penalty, the serial offender is not likely referring to an offense contained within the same statute. Sounds to me like a penalty for serial homosexuality...which is nothing but a penalty for regular homosexuality (since i would define myself as a 'serial heterosexual'!)

Anything less than watertight about my logic there?

148 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:03:50pm

re: #141 RogueOne

Or it could be they already have laws regarding heterosexual rape:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Oh, my. Women are fucked there... in every sense.

149 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:03:51pm

re: #145 Ben Hur

And vice versa, as I have been the victim of this trick multiple times.

What are you doing after work? Wanna go for a beer?//

150 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:03:56pm

Giving The Family and their political influence the benefit of the doubt (and I'm going waaay out on suspension of disbelief here)... if you were going to legislate morality and enforce it with the death penalty wouldn't you be well advised to make sure that legislation didn't leave room for misinterpretation when it came to homosexuality vs. serial rape?

/ Besides who names their group "the family" in the post Manson age> /

151 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:03:57pm

re: #146 lrsshadow

OH so then Life Imprisonment is the same as execution huh? I must have missed that memo.

You're fine with life imprisonment for gay sex?

You are without a doubt the stupidest person I have met today.

152 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #148 allegro

Oh, my. Women are fucked there... in every sense.

THAT i'll agree with.

153 KingKenrod  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:04:33pm

LOL. I love the way Terry Gross throws in "pro free market" with "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" as if free markets are some kind of a bad thing. I guess she knows who her audience is.

Sharlet sounds like a very credible journalist, this is all interesting information, but it all sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. His description of innocent, well-meaning politicians slowly being suckered into the the Family's sphere of influence via things like the National Prayer Breakfast is hilarious. It sure sounds like a conspiracy theory. The most important issue here may not be the Family's influence on the GOP, but the number of powerful Democrats who are also involved, since modern Dems are rarely identified with the religious right.

Also, why is so much time spent on talking about Sen. Ensign's adultery scandal? I'm not sure I see a real connection to the Family. Some Family members tried to talk him out of the affair - what's wrong with that? Is the point here just to point out hypocrisy? I kept expecting to hear that the Family arranged the payment of hush money, but no such thing happened. And quoting Doug Hampton about the Family - gee, do you think he might be a little biased, since Ensign was boinking his wife?

154 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #145 Ben Hur

And vice versa, as I have been the victim of this trick multiple times.


Huh?! Men or women. I had to reread that a few times. ;-)

155 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:04:59pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

You're fine with life imprisonment for gay sex?

You are without a doubt the stupidest person I have met today.

In all fairness let's not forget that up until just a few years ago you could get prison time in the US for the same things.

156 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:05:17pm

Look before a whole bunch of you argue how bad the bill is, I do think the bill is wrong and I also think that you cannot execute someone who has not murdered someone. So on both accounts this bill is horrible.

The whole point of my post was to point out that this bill doesn't execute anyone for being gay, as one would believe from reading the original post.

157 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:05:23pm

re: #145 Ben Hur

Interesting that this doesn't apply to heterosexual rape, by their definition. Guess it's OK for a man to ply a woman with liquor to get a little, but should it be same sex, it's the death penalty.

And vice versa, as I have been the victim of this trick multiple times.

Was that a complaint or bravado? *g*

158 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #155 RogueOne

In all fairness let's not forget that up until just a few years ago you could get prison time in the US for the same things.

I haven't forgotten that. This fellow here seems to think we should go back to that.

159 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:06:50pm

re: #156 lrsshadow

Look before a whole bunch of you argue how bad the bill is, I do think the bill is wrong and I also think that you cannot execute someone who has not murdered someone. So on both accounts this bill is horrible.

The whole point of my post was to point out that this bill doesn't execute anyone for being gay, as one would believe from reading the original post.

Life in prison is slo-mo execution.

160 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:06:52pm

re: #146 lrsshadow

Let's make this clear:

The crime of homosexuality is punishable by a life sentence in prison.
The crime of homosexual rape (which includes homosexual acts where one party has AIDS) is punishable by the death penalty.

Both the crimes and the sentences are geared specifically at homosexuals; there's no similar crime for heterosexual couples engaging in similar acts. Both the crimes and the sentences are overly harsh and designed to target homosexuals. There's no other way around that conclusion.

This is a bill designed to go after gays engaging in sex; the punishment for which is up to and including the death penalty.

161 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:22pm

re: #147 Aceofwhat?

A curious take, imho. Given that one instance of child gay rape already deserves the death penalty, the serial offender is not likely referring to an offense contained within the same statute. Sounds to me like a penalty for serial homosexuality...which is nothing but a penalty for regular homosexuality (since i would define myself as a 'serial heterosexual'!)

Anything less than watertight about my logic there?

If that is the case then I would have to apologize and Charles was right, but that is not how I interpreted it.

162 webevintage  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:29pm

During the primaries when I found out that Sen. Clinton attended prayer meetings (bible studies?) sponsered by The Family I knew would not vote for her.
I also will not vote for Sen. Mark Pryor next time his number comes up because of his affiliation with this group:

[Link: www.arktimes.com...]

“Jesus did not come to bring peace. Jesus came to take over." Thanks, but no thanks Mark.

A Dominionist Theocracy envisioned by people like Coe and Rushdonny have no place in a Democracy.

163 J.S.  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:40pm

re: #155 RogueOne

I don't think that's the case -- the proposed Uganda bill would also jail anyone (3 to 4 years) who failed to report "homosexual activity" to the authorities within 24 hours. The proposed bill is obviously homophobic to an extreme degree. (It's akin to finding out homosexuals, rounding them up, then executing them.)

164 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:40pm

re: #105 lrsshadow

What are you, a Ugandan judge?

First of all, they need only have said the death penalty applied to rape, period.

Secondly one can drive a truckload of loopholes through these clauses; specifically a: e: f: and g:. (a: because 18 is not an age of consent in Uganda, or for that matter even in Europe).

The others can be construed as being in effect by any prosecutor or judge who wants to do so.

165 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:44pm

re: #155 RogueOne

In all fairness let's not forget that up until just a few years ago you could get prison time in the US for the same things.

"I like what they do with fags, they put them in jail with other men. Very clever."

-Lenny Bruce

166 DerekM  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07:55pm

Africa... Not really wanting to live there right now. Mind you, don't they kill you in Uganda for silly things like having a different last name? I wouldn't be surprised that sort of law appeared in the context of that country, I'm shocked that it was encouraged by an organization from with our own.

167 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:08:02pm

re: #142 reine.de.tout

it has been explained here that the "hate crime" designation is a way to indicate that certain crimes against certain groups go beyond the crime itself for the reason that that commission of the crime is an attempt to intimidate or terrorize a particular GROUP, in addition to the actual crime that was committed. That adds a bit of clarity to the reason that 'hate crimes" exist; but I'm not one who is convinced it's necessary.


No, i follow the thought, i just don't think it's logical. Crimes always intimindate someone. That's the key point that hate crimes miss. Some group is always intimidated or terrorized as a result of most crime...but now we've lawfully inimated that some groups are more precious than others.

168 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #156 lrsshadow

The whole point of my post was to point out that this bill doesn't execute anyone for being gay, as one would believe from reading the original post.

Charles never said that it does. Look at what he typed:

Sharlet discusses The Family’s influence behind an effort in Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexuals

This is not the claim you claim it claims.

169 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:08:31pm

re: #158 Cato the Elder

I haven't forgotten that. This fellow here seems to think we should go back to that.

That fellow questioned whether life imprisonment is the same as execution. I'm not sure how you read that as advocating life imprisonment for homosexuality.

170 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:08:42pm

Africa is being squeezed by an incredible number of groups.

171 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:08:57pm

re: #156 lrsshadow

For you to pretend that this bill, if passed, will not be used to execute people for being gay is intellectually dishonest. Unless you're making the hair-splitting division that being gay, and actively having gay sex, are really separable.

Every gay man with a love life is a serial offender, under this bill, and eligible for the death penalty. Every single one of my gay friends would be executed, under this law.

So go jump in a hole.

172 researchok  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:09:04pm

The C Street Christians are lightweights. They aren't the threat Sharlet makes them out to be. He's just hawking his book.

For real right wing crackpots see the Council for National Policy.

On the left, there is the Tides Center. They are so far left that Teressa Heinz Kerry and the Pew folks stopped giving them money in 1998. The Tides people camouflage their craziness under the guise fo social justice.

They wanted to ban human beings from some public lands, all in the name of environmentalism. They wanted to take over the Steen Mountains in Oregon, for example.

They support only the hardest left of foreign policy, etc.

173 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:09:21pm

re: #163 J.S.

I don't think that's the case -- the proposed Uganda bill would also jail anyone (3 to 4 years) who failed to report "homosexual activity" to the authorities within 24 hours. The proposed bill is obviously homophobic to an extreme degree. (It's akin to finding out homosexuals, rounding them up, then executing them.)

I was talking strictly about sodomy.

/for some reason I really like that sentence.

174 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:09:40pm

re: #168 bosforus

This is not the claim you claim it claims.

Inconceivable!!!

175 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:09:57pm

re: #169 cliffster

That fellow questioned whether life imprisonment is the same as execution. I'm not sure how you read that as advocating life imprisonment for homosexuality.

I'm not sure how you read.

176 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #168 bosforus

This is not the claim you claim it claims.

The effort is larger than the bill. The bill is a result of the effort.

177 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:10:36pm

re: #175 Cato the Elder

I'm not sure how you read.

Cato, were you an english teacher in an earlier life?

178 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:10:42pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

You're fine with life imprisonment for gay sex?

You are without a doubt the stupidest person I have met today.

Wow you with out a doubt are the most disillusioned man I have met today.

I never said it was ok to imprison someone for being gay. I think the bill is morally reprehensible and the act of imprisoning someone for being gay is wrong.

It sure is something how to make a point you just put what ever words you want into peoples mouths and then call them stupid for something they didn't even say. I can speak for myself thank you very much.

179 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:16pm

While on the subject of moonbats, here's good proof that there are at least 10,000 of them in Denver (and I have no doubt they are both Republicans and Democrats).


Denver moonbats

180 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:19pm

re: #169 cliffster

That fellow questioned whether life imprisonment is the same as execution. I'm not sure how you read that as advocating life imprisonment for homosexuality.

3(1)(b) reads: (b) offender is a person living with HIV;

Is considered aggravated homosexuality.

Subject to death penalty.

181 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:19pm

re: #171 Obdicut

For you to pretend that this bill, if passed, will not be used to execute people for being gay is intellectually dishonest. Unless you're making the hair-splitting division that being gay, and actively having gay sex, are really separable.

Every gay man with a love life is a serial offender, under this bill, and eligible for the death penalty. Every single one of my gay friends would be executed, under this law.

So go jump in a hole.

That is exactly the distinction that "good gays" are supposed to make. God may have made you that way, but woe to you if you act on it.

182 J.S.  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:23pm

re: #170 Ben Hur

Add in illiteracy, superstitions, religious fanatics, witchcraft (there was a CNN report just the other day about another African group which hunt down albinos -- to get their body parts...), extreme poverty, etc. -- an endless pit.

183 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:38pm

re: #162 webevintage

During the primaries when I found out that Sen. Clinton attended prayer meetings (bible studies?) sponsered by The Family I knew would not vote for her.

So you voted for someone who sat in the Reverend Wright's pew for twenty years, Christened his kids, etc.


Makes sense.

184 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:11:49pm

re: #142 reine.de.tout
re: #167 Aceofwhat?

I'm a late convert to hate crimes laws, and late doubles as code for "reluctant believer in their occasional necessity." The part about hate crimes legislation that gets left out in these discussions is that 1) they include training for local law enforcement on group bias crimes (which doesn't make the law itself good or bad; this is just candy), and 2) (this is relevant to the discussion, IMHO) the legislation makes money available for investigation or prosecution of these crimes when local law enforcement is unwilling or unable. (ie, local sheriff/DA won't investigate or prosecute a crime against a black man, a gay woman, a Muslim, etc.
That's not only a tangible benefit but points out that victims of minority bias crimes *don't* all face the same "well, it's a crime for anyone to get attacked" playing field.

But boy is that a rathole.

185 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:12:32pm

re: #178 lrsshadow

I can speak for myself thank you very much.

Carry on then. The truth will out.

186 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:13:13pm

re: #156 lrsshadow

Look before a whole bunch of you argue how bad the bill is, I do think the bill is wrong and I also think that you cannot execute someone who has not murdered someone. So on both accounts this bill is horrible.

The whole point of my post was to point out that this bill doesn't execute anyone for being gay, as one would believe from reading the original post.

Ok, you're missing the point

Serial Homosexuality is listed as a reason to get the death penalty. So yes, just for being sexually active and gay, the bill says you can be killed by the state. No other reason is given or needed to kill the person in question.

Are you saying that you don't believe that's what the bill says?

187 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:13:23pm

re: #180 Gus 802

I'm not questioning the bill. I'm questioning Cato's speculation that lrsshadow advocated life imprisonment for homosexuality. He did not advocate any such thing, and Cato accused him of doing so. That's dishonest and mean, par to the course for Cato.

188 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:14:35pm

Off topic, but I must share my discovery of the book Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.

Soon to be a motion picture. Possibly starring Natalie Portman, according to some sources.

I am beside myself with anticipation.

189 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:15:00pm

re: #184 torrentprime

Hate crime legislation sometimes includes that kind of funding, but the crux of hate crime legislation is the enhancement of already existing penal code such that the penalties are increased depending on who the victim is and if it can be proven that the crime occurred because of the class to whom the victim belongs.

That, in a nutshell is the problem and the support for same. The crime already exists and sentencing under existing laws is provided. So are enhanced crimes (aggravating circumstances), which can increase the sentences.

But once you start creating hate crimes for one class of person, you have others quickly hoping to follow suit.

190 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:15:08pm

re: #149 RogueOne

What are you doing after work? Wanna go for a beer?//

Haha!

191 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:15:35pm

re: #181 Cato the Elder

That is exactly the distinction that "good gays" are supposed to make. God may have made you that way, but woe to you if you act on it.

Which is insane. It makes god into a villain. And not a very good villain at that.

It's Rocky Horror Picture Show God.

192 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:15:46pm

re: #168 bosforus

This is not the claim you claim it claims.

Good point, I will concede to Charles,

Sorry about saying you were being dishonest. I should have realized that it was not your statement, you were just passing it along as a quote.

193 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:16:03pm

re: #187 cliffster

That's dishonest and mean, par to the course for Cato.

That's "par for the course", you coarse curse.

194 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:17:08pm

re: #189 lawhawk

but the crux of hate crime legislation is the enhancement of already existing penal code such that the penalties are increased depending on who the victim is and if it can be proven that the crime occurred because of the class to whom the victim belongs.

I'm sorry, that's not totally accurate. T he penalties are increased if it can be proven that the crime occurred because of what class the victim was perceived, by the offender, to belong to.

In other words, if you kill a straight guy because you think he's gay, it's still a hate crime.

195 Idle Drifter  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:17:48pm

re: #179 Naso Tang

While on the subject of moonbats, here's good proof that there are at least 10,000 of them in Denver (and I have no doubt they are both Republicans and Democrats).


Denver moonbats

Face meets palm. @#$%ing idiots.

196 RogueOne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:17:57pm

Cya folks, play nice.

197 webevintage  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:19:57pm

re: #183 Ben Hur

So you voted for someone who sat in the Reverend Wright's pew for twenty years, Christened his kids, etc.

Makes sense.

Yes I did, I do not think Wright is near as dangerous as The Family is.

198 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:20:02pm

re: #188 SixDegrees

Read it, loved it, and am now working on Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters.

199 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:20:13pm

re: #192 lrsshadow

Good point, I will concede to Charles,

Sorry about saying you were being dishonest. I should have realized that it was not your statement, you were just passing it along as a quote.

You never called me dishonest but I'll accept the apology anyway. Sorry for telling you to scram. I'm glad you made your points. I'll allow you stay now. ;)

200 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #179 Naso Tang

While on the subject of moonbats, here's good proof that there are at least 10,000 of them in Denver (and I have no doubt they are both Republicans and Democrats).

Denver moonbats

I would be furious over this wanton waste of tax dollars.

201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:21:16pm

re: #188 SixDegrees

I heart Natalie Portman.

202 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:22:28pm

re: #192 lrsshadow

Good point, I will concede to Charles,

Sorry about saying you were being dishonest. I should have realized that it was not your statement, you were just passing it along as a quote.

Oh, you're probably talking to Charles in those last two sentences. I'm a little slow today, I spent an hour of my morning sticking my head in sewer manholes.

203 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:04pm

re: #186 bloodstar

I still read it as applying only to the subsection

...3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the...
...(f) offender is a serial offender, or...

In order to be an "offender" with continual offenses under this section to be "a serial offender" under this section of Aggravated Homosexuality. Therefore to be a serial offender you have to commit multiple Aggravated Homosexual acts defined in this section. In other words you have to commit the offense of Aggravated Homosexuality before you can be a serial offender.

I don't see how this could apply as serial offenders for other sections in this bill. I would submit that I am not in the legal profession in Uganda, but then again anyone else commenting on this bill is either.

204 baier  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:08pm

re: #200 SixDegrees

I would be furious over this wanton waste of tax dollars.

That money would not be the worst the government ever spent.

205 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:15pm

re: #201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I heart Natalie Portman.

And I know her real name.

206 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:41pm

re: #179 Naso Tang

While on the subject of moonbats, here's good proof that there are at least 10,000 of them in Denver (and I have no doubt they are both Republicans and Democrats).

Denver moonbats

Jeff Peckman is a strange man.

207 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:47pm

re: #194 Obdicut

I'm sorry, that's not totally accurate. T he penalties are increased if it can be proven that the crime occurred because of what class the victim was perceived, by the offender, to belong to.

In other words, if you kill a straight guy because you think he's gay, it's still a hate crime.

Right - it's the perception of the perp (which goes to intent) and not the membership of the victim in this group or that. It's a critical difference.

208 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:23:49pm

Hot Air and Dan Riehl are freaking out over this piece of legislation...
Free Flow of Information Act of 2009

Looks to me like it's providing protection for whistle blowers and journalists but they're claiming it's designed to silence wight wing bloggers to protect ACORN.

209 lrsshadow  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:24:38pm

re: #199 bosforus

You never called me dishonest but I'll accept the apology anyway. Sorry for telling you to scram. I'm glad you made your points. I'll allow you stay now. ;)

Oh I would love to stick around. I have to get back to my painting project. Just thought I would drop in over lunch and post a few comments. Didn't mean to get you lizards all railed up.

210 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:24:41pm

re: #197 webevintage

Yes I did, I do not think Wright is near as dangerous as The Family is.

As is your right.

211 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Which still has the effect of minimizing the killing of a straight guy for any other reason. The penalties should be stiff enough to cover all motivations. If it was a member of my family, i'd want the stiffest penalty possible and i'd have a real hard time hearing that my family member didn't belong to a certain group, and as such, isn't deserving of the most severe prosecution available.

212 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:25:17pm

re: #203 lrsshadow

I still read it as applying only to the subsection

...3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the...
...(f) offender is a serial offender, or...

In order to be an "offender" with continual offenses under this section to be "a serial offender" under this section of Aggravated Homosexuality. Therefore to be a serial offender you have to commit multiple Aggravated Homosexual acts defined in this section. In other words you have to commit the offense of Aggravated Homosexuality before you can be a serial offender.

I don't see how this could apply as serial offenders for other sections in this bill. I would submit that I am not in the legal profession in Uganda, but then again anyone else commenting on this bill is either.

That is a very bizarre misreading.

Since each of those other acts already carry the death penalty, why would you think that your interpretation make any sense? They get double-death?

Repeat offender clearly means a repeat offender of homosexual sex. That is all. It's a bill about the offense of homosexuality.

213 Gearhead  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:25:44pm

re: #202 bosforus

Oh, you're probably talking to Charles in those last two sentences. I'm a little slow today, I spent an hour of my morning sticking my head in sewer manholes.

I wouldn't say that out loud in Uganda...

214 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:26:12pm

re: #203 lrsshadow

I would submit that I am not in the legal profession in Uganda, but then again anyone else commenting on this bill is either.

OK. I have to run. Anyone who can tell me what that sentence means in a way that does not violate all laws of logic, grammar and rhetoric gets free Cato updings on your next 100 comments, regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

215 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:26:36pm

re: #209 lrsshadow

Oh I would love to stick around. I have to get back to my painting project. Just thought I would drop in over lunch and post a few comments. Didn't mean to get you lizards all railed up.

Thanks for vocalizing your disagreement. I liked it, when it was free of insults.

216 Ben Hur  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:26:57pm

I know I'm not, but neither are you?

217 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:27:16pm

re: #212 Obdicut

Yep, i said the same thing in an earlier post. Irsshadow doesn't seem to want to hear that we can rule out an act that does nothing but redefine a previously defined act in the bill...which leaves only the conclusion that homosexuality itself is the offense.

218 baier  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

annoying.

219 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:29:09pm

re: #211 Aceofwhat?

I'm pretty ambivalent about hate crime laws. A friend of mine who is a judge said that if you don't need think you need the provision at the first offense, you'll need it at the thousandth one.

To a certain extent, laws are symbolic. I do feel that it's more of a threat to society to persecute minorities for being minorities than it is to be a common crominal. I think burning a cross on a lawn is a bigger offense than whatever fire code violation that is and whatever trespassing charge. There's an implicit threat of violence.

Now, if all that can be handled inside the context of laws without calling them 'hate crime' laws, that's fine.

But all groups are protected under hate crime bills, the majority as well as the minority. Blacks are prosecuted for hate crimes against whites. It doesn't raise one group above another.

I don't think they're necessarily effective, I think they have some rather bad aspects to them, and it can easily be argued that they confuse real reasons people are killing each other-- making a poverty issue into a race issue, for example.

I feel it's necessary to prevent systematic terrorization of minorities; I think hate crime laws are a very imperfect way to do that.

220 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:29:23pm

re: #215 cliffster

Thanks for vocalizing your disagreement. I liked it, when it was free of insults.

You liked the accusation?

Is a Lie if you want to be intellectual honest it should say "Uganda to institute the death penalty for homosexual rape." Come on Charles I expect more from you.

The bill says anyone that is HIV positive and has engaged in gay sex shall be convicted of aggravated homosexuality and subject to the death penalty.

221 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:30:04pm

re: #219 Obdicut

good summary. i can roll with that.

222 tradewind  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:30:12pm

Looks as if becoming the house organ for the RNC and conservative pols is working out pretty well for Fox. Nielsen ratings up ten percent. CNN and MSNBC, same period? Down.
[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

223 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:30:58pm

re: #201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I heart Natalie Portman.

The same author is currently busy on a new project: Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter.

No further information is available.

224 DerekM  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:31:01pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

OK. I have to run. Anyone who can tell me what that sentence means in a way that does not violate all laws of logic, grammar and rhetoric gets free Cato updings on your next 100 comments, regardless of whether I agree with you or not.


It's the traditional english way of saying 'I'm might be wrong but so are you,' and then making an ass of yourself without proof reading. It can be traced back to the subjectivist arguements throughout the ages, just add grammatical errors.

225 tradewind  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:31:37pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Blacks are prosecuted for hate crimes against whites.

Not often, or proportionately.

226 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:31:38pm

re: #213 Gearhead

I wouldn't say that out loud in Uganda...

How 'bout this: I've got poo stains on my knees.

227 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:32:14pm

This thread just stuns me.
I never heard of this group.
I am appalled.

228 ED 209  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:32:17pm

re: #62 MandyManners

The only person I've seen use "Xian" and the like was a flaming asshole who happened to be rabidly anti-Christian on a military board years ago.

Oooo! I'd like to see that.
(May not be safe for work)

229 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:32:40pm

re: #226 bosforus

I wouldn't say that out loud in Uganda...

How 'bout this: I've got poo stains on my knees.

Oh, dear. I don't think that much improves your case.

230 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:05pm

re: #211 Aceofwhat?

Which still has the effect of minimizing the killing of a straight guy for any other reason. The penalties should be stiff enough to cover all motivations. If it was a member of my family, i'd want the stiffest penalty possible and i'd have a real hard time hearing that my family member didn't belong to a certain group, and as such, isn't deserving of the most severe prosecution available.

I'm going to share the pro-hate crimes party line on this one. I have to preface it with saying that I'm not totally sold on it yet, but it needs to be shared.

One of the offered justifications for hate crimes law is that the effect - the actual crime is different.
The two scenarios are different: When a white man is attacked and beaten up, the absence of group bias means the crime could have been caused by the "normal" reasons for assault: alcohol, money/robbery, personal beef, etc. When 2 black men are beaten up in a white neighborhood but hood-wearing men, a message is sent (and this is where the word terrorism comes in) that [minority] isn't welcome or safe. A gay man getting beaten up by a crowd of men screaming "faggot!" doesn't have the same effect on a community that a non-bias crime does.

(Don't jump me too much; just sharing the arguments I've heard)

231 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:24pm

re: #222 tradewind

Looks as if becoming the house organ for the RNC and conservative pols is working out pretty well for Fox. Nielsen ratings up ten percent. CNN and MSNBC, same period? Down.
[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

Its a niche market.

232 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:24pm

re: #220 Gus 802

I like when someone tells me they think I'm wrong. That doesn't mean I think they're right, it just means I respect them telling me what they think. Again, when free of insult, I'm good with the disagreement.

233 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:32pm

re: #225 tradewind

Not often, or proportionately.

Well there are just so many white people in America it's hard to say if a crime was committed against them because they are white or if it was just by chance.
/someone can probably make that case with a straight face

234 Gearhead  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:46pm

re: #226 bosforus

How 'bout this: I've got poo stains on my knees.

Hahahaha...ewww

235 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:33:59pm

re: #30 SixDegrees

All of the stuff at Wiki is taken directly from Sharlet, going all the way back to the page's creation. Has anyone else looked into this? The organization itself certainly exists, and has been around since the 30s. A long time to stay under the radar, particularly given the prominence of their members.

Me, you, and most everyone here know why that is...if the general populace figured out what The Family's all about, the Dems and the GOP would catch loads of hell from people that don't want Dominionism.

236 Achilles Tang  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:34:05pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

OK. I have to run. Anyone who can tell me what that sentence means in a way that does not violate all laws of logic, grammar and rhetoric gets free Cato updings on your next 100 comments, regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

PIMF

237 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:34:21pm

re: #225 tradewind

For that to be useful, don't we need to know the occurrence of such crimes in the first place? How many racially-motivated "beating up white people while wearing black hoods" crimes are there?

238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:34:38pm

re: #223 SixDegrees

In "Garden State" she was fantastic.

239 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:35:58pm

re: #229 allegro

Oh, dear. I don't think that much improves your case.

The manholes were sealed with tar drip when we were done with them. For safety reasons.

240 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:01pm

re: #238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Indeed. And if I wasn't married, she'd be at the top of my list - along with Ms. Ryder (formerly known as Winona Horowitz).

241 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:16pm

re: #237 torrentprime

For that to be useful, don't we need to know the occurrence of such crimes in the first place? How many racially-motivated "beating up white people while wearing black hoods" crimes are there?

Does Abu Ghraib Prison count? /

242 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #232 cliffster

I like when someone tells me they think I'm wrong. That doesn't mean I think they're right, it just means I respect them telling me what they think. Again, when free of insult, I'm good with the disagreement.

Overall I agree but it also depends. If someone were to give me their opinion on how they thought Jim Crow America was a good thing I would not be open to any civil discussion.

Additionally, I would also not be open to discussion if someone makes false accusations which is what was done in this case.

243 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:36pm

re: #234 Gearhead

Hahahaha...ewww

I wish I had thought to bring a change of pants to work.

244 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:41pm

re: #239 bosforus

The manholes were sealed with tar drip when we were done with them. For safety reasons.


Did you find the pony?

245 abolitionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:36:55pm

"Totalitarianism for Christ ... Jesus doesn't take sides, he comes to take over."

Sheesh.

Anyone know if this family is associated with or is identical to the DC commune (overtly communist "family") that was established by Jim Wallis - a religious/political group also known as the Sojourners?

246 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:38:44pm

re: #244 DaddyG

Did you find the pony?


Smelled like I did.

247 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:38:47pm

re: #238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In "Garden State" she was fantastic.

I'd like to Tiger Woods her. (jk, honey)

248 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:38:54pm

re: #241 DaddyG

Does Abu Ghraib Prison count? /

Well done.

(Side note: Can you imagine the freak-out on the fringe right if prosecutions were brought to trial from those prisons based on hate crime laws?)

249 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:39:20pm

re: #235 talon_262

Still poking around for some independent confirmation, so far with no luck.

It just strikes me as odd that an 80 year old organization boasting some of the nation's most powerful figures as members over it's long history hasn't gotten any mention in all that time.

250 freetoken  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:39:40pm

re: #245 abolitionist

The Family and Sojourners are not to my knowledge, the same thing or are related.

Sojournors is a nominally Christian group that aligns with many so called "liberal" causes. Is that why you call it "communist"?

251 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:40:01pm

re: #249 SixDegrees

It's sekrit, doncha know.

252 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:40:01pm

re: #222 tradewind

Looks as if becoming the house organ for the RNC and conservative pols is working out pretty well for Fox. Nielsen ratings up ten percent. CNN and MSNBC, same period? Down.
[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

Are you aware that elections are not decided by TV ratings?

253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:40:15pm

re: #247 cliffster

I'd like to Tiger Woods her. (jk, honey)

Have her beat you senseless with a golf club?

254 freetoken  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:41:26pm

re: #249 SixDegrees

There is some information out there on Doug Coe. When Sharlet first released his book I posted it here, and mentioned Coe. I'll look to see if I kept any of the links about Coe.

255 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:41:31pm

re: #253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Have her beat you senseless with a golf club?

Yes.

256 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:42:04pm

re: #251 allegro

It's sekrit, doncha know.

And yet, Sharlet has reams of information on it.

257 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:42:18pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

"OK. I have to run. Anyone who can tell me what that sentence means in a way that does not violate all laws of logic, grammar and rhetoric gets free Cato updings on your next 100 comments, regardless of whether I agree with you or not."

No one commenting on this bill is licensed to practice law in Uganda and therefore is not qualified to comment on it is how I read that.

That being the case, why did he feel the need to comment on it?

That's right, he wasn't. He was calling Charles Intellectually Dishonest.

258 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:43:00pm

re: #256 SixDegrees

I may be mistaken, but I think he lived there on C Street for a couple of years so he's got the "insider" thingie going on.

259 allegro  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:43:59pm

I should have said he lived in the C Street Family abode.

260 cliffster  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:44:08pm

re: #257 Bubblehead II

Personally, I think he was calling him Intellectually Dishonest, but then backed off that position.

261 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:44:10pm

re: #254 freetoken

There is some information out there on Doug Coe. When Sharlet first released his book I posted it here, and mentioned Coe. I'll look to see if I kept any of the links about Coe.

I've come up with a smattering of information on the organization and on Coe; I have no doubt both exist. All of the information on their activities, however, seems to trace back to a single source: Sharlet.

I was looking for an independent source of information, so far without any luck.

262 tradewind  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:45:29pm

Sharlet might tend to exaggerate a tad, from time to time... somehow I can't buy that ' the majority of US Catholics are pro=choice'... and neither can the fact-checkers.

This sort of thing an actual journalist would have flagged as dubious, but not Rachel Maddow.


[Link: www.outloudopinion.com...]

263 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:46:24pm

re: #230 torrentprime

I'm going to share the pro-hate crimes party line on this one. I have to preface it with saying that I'm not totally sold on it yet, but it needs to be shared.

One of the offered justifications for hate crimes law is that the effect - the actual crime is different.
The two scenarios are different: When a white man is attacked and beaten up, the absence of group bias means the crime could have been caused by the "normal" reasons for assault: alcohol, money/robbery, personal beef, etc. When 2 black men are beaten up in a white neighborhood but hood-wearing men, a message is sent (and this is where the word terrorism comes in) that [minority] isn't welcome or safe. A gay man getting beaten up by a crowd of men screaming "faggot!" doesn't have the same effect on a community that a non-bias crime does.

(Don't jump me too much; just sharing the arguments I've heard)

I hear you. But it's wishful thinking, and (imho) like most race/creed/etc. based device, the cure is worse than the disease.

So let's say my black friend was beaten up by 2 white guys, as you say. The fact that the 2 white guys get an extra ___ years in prison isn't going to diminish the terrorizing effect of the crime. If it would, we should just convert all sentences into their current 'hate crime' maxima and then we'd deter all sorts of crime, not just those that qualify for hate.

The terrorizing effect is only lessened when the penalty seems severe enough to deter future instances of the crime. Which is sort of the point of all crime penalties...isn't it?

264 abolitionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:47:01pm

re: #250 freetoken

The Family and Sojourners are not to my knowledge, the same thing or are related.

Sojournors is a nominally Christian group that aligns with many so called "liberal" causes. Is that why you call it "communist"?

No. The Soujourners established their DC commune according overtly communist principles, pooling wealth, no private property, etc, except for embracing "christianity" instead of atheism.

265 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:48:42pm

re: #260 cliffster

Only after he got hammered over the head a few times.

New creationist thread upstairs. Time to see if any of yesterdays hatchling are going to meltdown and or flounce.

266 freetoken  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:49:40pm

re: #261 SixDegrees

I was looking for an independent source of information, so far without any luck.

Would something like this work?

[Link: 74.125.95.132...]

Try doing a google search on "Richard Carver" +"Fellowship Foundation" .

267 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:50:38pm

re: #265 Bubblehead II


I smell a party.

268 tradewind  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:50:43pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout
Of course. Are you aware that my post was unrelated to election results?
I said it was working out well for Fox. And according to Nielsen, it is indeed.

269 gvmtspook  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:50:45pm

re: #141 RogueOne


Um, I am confused, the link you provided was for Kenya and the anti-homosexual bill is from Uganda. Not that Uganda doesn't have similar laws (I have not looked) but these are two different countries... right?

270 DaddyG  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:52:11pm

Again- all religious affliliation aside... why exactly are American legislators doing mucking about in Ugandan law?

Isn't this the kind of thing that causes people to despise us?!

271 bratwurst  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:53:38pm

re: #222 tradewind

Looks as if becoming the house organ for the RNC and conservative pols is working out pretty well for Fox. Nielsen ratings up ten percent. CNN and MSNBC, same period? Down.
[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

Just as those right of center enjoy pointing out the great ratings for FNC, those of us left of center enjoy pointing out that FNC and Rush had massive audiences during the last two election cycles as well.

272 torrentprime  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:54:16pm

re: #263 Aceofwhat?

I hear you. But it's wishful thinking, and (imho) like most race/creed/etc. based device, the cure is worse than the disease.

So let's say my black friend was beaten up by 2 white guys, as you say. The fact that the 2 white guys get an extra ___ years in prison isn't going to diminish the terrorizing effect of the crime.

I'm going to stop the quote here, because this is where I think the example falls apart. The terrorizing effect of the crime is completely different in the hate crime / non-hate crime scenarios. Why did the white guys do it? Was it a "we want his watch" crime or "blacks going to get stomped" crime? Which one will scare blacks more, cause more damage to a community (on all sides, as racial tensions inflate), and (so the thinking goes) therefore actually be a bigger crime? Wouldn't (non-imaginary!) Tawana Brawley attackers have committed a much bugger, more impactful crime than an assault / rape?

273 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:54:43pm

re: #266 freetoken

Would something like this work?

[Link: 74.125.95.132...]

Try doing a google search on "Richard Carver" +"Fellowship Foundation" .

Thanks. The problem I have with this article is that it doesn't cite any references, and appears to be a detailed report on some of Sharlet's early articles. As noted, I'm looking for independent sources, and I'm not certain this one qualifies.

274 Gus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:58:08pm

re: #262 tradewind

Sharlet might tend to exaggerate a tad, from time to time... somehow I can't buy that ' the majority of US Catholics are pro=choice'... and neither can the fact-checkers.


[Link: www.outloudopinion.com...]

The blog you link doesn't do a good job of supporting their claim. And this is from the blog:

The poll, coming out just before Obama's commencement speech at the University of Notre Dame, found that 47 percent of Catholics believe abortion should be "legal in all/most cases," compared to 42 percent stating it should be "illegal in all/most cases."

47% is greater than 42%. There are other polls out there regarding Catholics and abortion which I will not seek. However, considering this is regarding Jeff Sharlet and cross posted at the Newsbusters it is likely the start of a feeble smear campaign against Jeff Sharlet.

275 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:58:56pm

re: #138 lrsshadow

Yah you have a point there, but I have seen a lot of blanket statements made with a broadbrush in "shock jock" fashion and I do come to this site, because Charles has been very clear and honest in his blogging, and yes I do put him up as a trusted source and I do expect more from Charles then I would from someone like Beck, Rush, Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer, or Other talking heads.

Go sit on it and spin, you dishonest troll...

276 freetoken  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:00:44pm

re: #273 SixDegrees

Since the author doesn't credit Sharlet as a source, but rather

* Times researchers Janet Lundblad and Robert Patrick contributed to this report.


I would disagree with your categorization of this piece as based on Sharlet. Could be Getter did use Sharlet and did not credit him.

You could always look up the piece in World magazine and see what it says.

277 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:03:46pm

re: #12 bosforus

Missed the sarc tag my friend... The (Christian) Lords Resistence Army are the ones (literally) calling the shots on crazyness in Uganda.


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

278 gvmtspook  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:03:54pm

re: #205 Cato the Elder

Natalie Hershlag? Is that a secret or something else I am missing?

279 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:25:35pm

re: #146 lrsshadow

OH so then Life Imprisonment is the same as execution huh? I must have missed that memo.

WTF is wrong with your reading comprehension? We realize the death penalty is a recommended punishment for aggravated homosexuality (gay rape, gay sex while having HIV/AIDS, etc.) in this Ugandan bill, but when a life sentence in prison is the proscribed punishment for just being gay and for those who don't rat gays out to the cops, that's just the icing on an extremely toxic and foul cake.

BTW, why would there be any reason for American politicians (especially those belonging to an evangelical/Dominionist organization such as The Family) to meddle in a foreign country's legislative process like this? I can think of no good reasons at all...

280 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38:16pm

via Sullivan:

Here's a blog written by a Gay man in Uganda.

interesting and compelling stuff.

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:39:25pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No, its completely different. Shari'a is based on the lies spread by Mohammed. This is done according to God's will.

//or some other equally nonsensical reasoning

Pretty sure that if you've been executed for being gay, you don't much care one way or the other.

From Dogma:

"You were martyred?"

"That's one way to put it. Another way to put it might be that I was bludgeoned to death with big rocks and shit."

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:41:16pm

re: #16 SixDegrees

I heard this interview when it was originally broadcast. I don't recall that Sharlet ever mentions it, but just for the sake of clarity the law doesn't make homosexuality a capitol offense; it seeks to institute the death penalty for someone who knows they have AIDs to have sex with...someone of the same sex. So yes, it's every bit as bad as presented in the end, and even more stupid, in fact, but it doesn't seek to criminalize simply being gay. I was slightly miffed to learn this later, rather than from Sharlet, because in some ways this is even worse.

On a related topic: can anyone direct me to independent research that discusses this group's activities? Everything I've checked so far leads straight back to Sharlet when it comes to specifics, and I'd like to get a broader base of information on it. A lot of Sharlet's reports have an almost Illuminati-reminiscent tinge to them; a few additional sources would be welcome.

So it's OK, if you have AIDS, to engage in straight sex? That makes even LESS sense.

283 brainiac-dumdum  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:42:24pm

It's probably been posted already, but I don't have time to RTT, so...

Trips, national and international, that Family members go on to proselytize, are paid for w/ tax dollars.

Inhofe for example

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:44:44pm

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know a bunch of Christians. I know a bunch of "Right-Wing" Christians. I know of no Christians that would support the execution of gays.

I do know a bunch of Christians whom posed the question "Would you support the execution of gays" would ask the person, "Have you lost your fucking mind?!?!"

Just sayin'.

That's why these crazy evil people can't do it in the U.S. But they'll rejoice if they can push it through someplace else.

285 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:45:19pm

re: #283 brainiac-dumdum

Welcome, hatchling. Have an upding.

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:47:34pm

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Faced with someone with such an opinion, I would say, "Have you lost your fucking mind?" I think that's biblical... Well not really. But I also believe Jesus would paraphrase my sentiment.

I'd try to translate, but I have no idea what the Aramaic for 'fucking' might be.

287 brainiac-dumdum  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:49:31pm

re: #285 wrenchwench

Thanks! I don't know what an 'upding' is though.

/it's true, the above post was my first ever here

288 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:51:47pm

re: #287 brainiac-dumdum

Thanks! I don't know what an 'upding' is though.

/it's true, the above post was my first ever here

Look at the header of your first comment. Click on the number just left of the minus sign. There you will see who has pushed the plus sign on your post, and refresh the number accordingly at the same time. Nifty, huh?

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:54:15pm

re: #132 Ben Hur

It seems that way, but from your link:

2. The offence of homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offence of homosexuality if-

(a) he penetrates the anus or mouth of another person of the same sex with his penis or any other sexual contraption;

(b) he or she uses any object or sexual contraption to penetrate or stimulate sexual organ of a person of the same sex;

(e) he or she touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.

(2) A person who commits an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.

3. Aggravated homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the

(a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years;

(b) offender is a person living with HIV;

(c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed;

(d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed;

(e) victim of the offence is a person with disability;

(f) offender is a serial offender, or

(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex,

(2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death.

(3) Where a person is charged with the offence under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.

Homosexuality itself is listed as an offense and separated in the bill from Aggrevated Homosexuality (rape).

Is there any reason to believe that aggravated homosexuality actually means 'rape' in any sense that a reasonable person would consider rape?

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:57:18pm

re: #162 webevintage

During the primaries when I found out that Sen. Clinton attended prayer meetings (bible studies?) sponsered by The Family I knew would not vote for her.
I also will not vote for Sen. Mark Pryor next time his number comes up because of his affiliation with this group:

[Link: www.arktimes.com...]

“Jesus did not come to bring peace. Jesus came to take over." Thanks, but no thanks Mark.

A Dominionist Theocracy envisioned by people like Coe and Rushdonny have no place in a Democracy.

"Jesus didn't come to earth to give us the willies! He came to help us out."

291 Basho  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 3:16:05pm

These guys are sick. I hope someone threatens them with the death penalty.

292 Basho  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 3:18:30pm

Err... came here late, but, are there actually people defending Uganda on here?!?

293 ryannon  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 3:20:58pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

"Jesus didn't come to earth to give us the willies! He came to help us out."

[Link: www.classic-tv-shows.com...]

294 bosforus  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 3:41:23pm

re: #287 brainiac-dumdum

Thanks! I don't know what an 'upding' is though.

/it's true, the above post was my first ever here

You see, when a man and a woman love each other very much...

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 3:59:56pm

re: #245 abolitionist

"Totalitarianism for Christ ... Jesus doesn't take sides, he comes to take over."

Sheesh.

Anyone know if this family is associated with or is identical to the DC commune (overtly communist "family") that was established by Jim Wallis - a religious/political group also known as the Sojourners?

I assume these people and Jim Wallis would have nothing to do with one another.

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:01:20pm

re: #270 DaddyG

Again- all religious affliliation aside... why exactly are American legislators doing mucking about in Ugandan law?

Isn't this the kind of thing that causes people to despise us?!

Well, it probably won't make us look good in the eyes of the Ugandan gay community, but they have their own problems...

297 abolitionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:42:33pm

re: #250 freetoken

The Family and Sojourners are not to my knowledge, the same thing or are related.

Sojournors is a nominally Christian group that aligns with many so called "liberal" causes. Is that why you call it "communist"?

I think this confirms my guess:

God's Politics - a blog by Jim Wallis and friends
Mark Sanford, John Ensign, and ‘The Family’
by Becky Garrison 07-24-2009

Presently, the glare of the media spotlight has started to shine on a number of political figures, all of whom coincidentally have a connection to a D.C.-based group called The Family. Stories linking The Family to these politicos have appeared on a number of media outlets including NPR’s Fresh Air, The Rachel Maddow Show, and Salon. Recently, I contacted religion scholar Jeff Sharlet, author of the New York Times bestseller The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power and contributing editor for Rolling Stone and Harper’s, to discuss his research into this group and its connection to this current round of political scandals.

What is The Family?

Let me put in the words of a Washington insider who’s an admirer of the group: David Kuo, White House aide in Bush’s term, calls it “the most powerful group in Washington that nobody knows.”
[snip]

The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power is mentioned at the top of this thread.

discoverthenetworks - Sojourners

Giving voice to Sojourners' intense anti-Americanism, Jim Wallis called the U.S. "… the great power, the great seducer, the great captor and destroyer of human life, the great master of humanity and history in its totalitarian claims and designs."

In the 1980s the Sojourners community actively embraced "liberation theology," rallying to the cause of communist regimes that had seized power especially in Latin America, with the promise of bringing about the revolutionary restructuring of society.

Where have I heard that sort of stuff before? /rhetorical

298 Joanne  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:50:12pm

re: #153 KingKenrod

Not exactly.

Sharlot got an invite from someone he knew to the C Street house. As they rent rooms to many politicians, he managed to stay there for several months. He never told anyone he was a journalist. His book is a couple of years old, long before the Ensign/Sanford/Coburn deal. The house is still tax-exempt.

They beleive they are the chosen who are above it all. Morals are for others (seriously). Did you hear Sanford compare himself to King David when his scandal hit? Ensign screwed around with a staffer (whose husband and son are on E's payroll), and then, used Coburn (also a member of C St) as a mediator who wound up negotiating a $93k payment (via Ensign's parents) to this woman. He wasn't counseled to end the affair, he was counseled to make it go away.

The women at C St. do kitchen work only.

They believe that Christianity has been wrong for 2000 years and Jesus really didn't support the poor, he supported the moneychangers. They know the true word of Christ (I am not being facetious in the least here).

You have to take a virtual vow of secrecy, which is why you hear so little from the place.

It's completely facinating. And totally terrifying.

Sorry in advance for any typos, I'm on my iPhone and don't want to lose everything I just typed.

299 abolitionist  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 6:07:06pm

A little more NPR interview of Jeff Sharlet (20minutes) Download mp3

'Family': Fundamentalism, Friends In High Places

In the book The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, author Jeff Sharlet examines the power wielded by a secretive Christian group known as the Family, or the Fellowship.
300 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 7:20:36pm

re: #16 SixDegrees
Their leader Doug Coe in his own words.

The Religious Fascists in America

301 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 7:23:50pm

re: #261 SixDegrees

I've come up with a smattering of information on the organization and on Coe; I have no doubt both exist. All of the information on their activities, however, seems to trace back to a single source: Sharlet.

I was looking for an independent source of information, so far without any luck.

Republican Gomorrah also has sections on them.

302 Joetheplumber  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:55:21am

The more I look around, the more I'm convinced that ALL organized religion stink; some maybe more so than others. I really have a hard time understanding what it is about human beings that they would want to cling to such myths and superstitions. One would have hoped that by now man would have evolved sufficiently to shed such primitive belief systems.


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