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154 comments
1 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:39:19pm

The devil is in the details. "Cap & Giveaway"...good video. Thanks.

2 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:46:26pm

Looks familiar, made by the same folks who made "the story of stuff"?

3 metrolibertarian  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:53:37pm

It's simply another market for Goldman-Sachs and other classic market manipulators to engage in their classic brand of thievery. Matt Taibbi broke down how companies like GS are already getting involved in the hardly in existence market.

4 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:56:40pm

re: #3 metrolibertarian

It's simply another market for Goldman-Sachs and other classic market manipulators to engage in their classic brand of thievery. Matt Taibbi broke down how companies like GS are already getting involved in the hardly in existence market.

Goldman Sachs Is the problem? Oy, I see where this is going...

5 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:57:07pm

Very nice analysis. I would have been better if it had been more secifically mentioned who will benefit from this boondoggle. Companies like GE, Goldman Sachs, and others in tight with the Obama White House stand to make billions from Cap and Trade. This, as much as anything, is what has soured me on the AGW movement. It has been hijacked by Al Gore and big businesses who want to rob the people of the world in a giant ponzi scheme. It is a frigtening prospect.

6 teh flowah  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 3:57:50pm

I thought Charles drank the AGW coolaid and was all for every single radical solution. Isn't that true? If you accept the truth of the science, clearly you must think it's the coming of the Apocalypse and we need to kill our economies.

7 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:00:24pm

Interesting.

8 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:00:37pm

Related - India reiterates that it will absolutely not accept any legally binding carbon limits in Copenhagen while saying it will cut carbon intensity by 20% (non binding).

[Link: www.thehindubusinessline.com...]

If you look at this graphic to see what offering a "20% cut" by a country that is growing that rapidly is no cut and is, instead, a license to import even more energy intensive industries.

Sham.

9 metrolibertarian  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:01:42pm

re: #4 brookly red

Goldman Sachs Is the problem? Oy, I see where this is going...

It has nothing to do with Jews, but nice try dipshit.

10 abolitionist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:02:15pm

That was refreshingly un-dogmatic.
There's more Annie Leonard here.

11 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:02:26pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Interesting.

When I watched it the other night I found it interesting as well. Sort of unexpected. Although, to be honest, this video might have the reverse effect and wind up getting the GOP to support cap and trade. If you know what I mean.

12 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:02:37pm

re: #6 teh flowah

From what I have read here, Charles believes in the science of AGW and has not been a proponent of any particular proposed solution. I disagree with him on a number of aspects of AGW. This, clearly, is not one of them.

13 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:02:47pm

"Pay our ecological debt..."

So excited to use my money to buy carbon credits to pay for my eco sins...
/not.

14 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:03:14pm

re: #4 brookly red

Goldman Sachs Is the problem? Oy, I see where this is going...

Yep, those evil bankers and sinister energy companies. How fiendish of them to have made our modern prosperity possible.

15 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:03:20pm

re: #12 lightspeed

From what I have read here, Charles believes in the science of AGW and has not been a proponent of any particular proposed solution. I disagree with him on a number of aspects of AGW. This, clearly, is not one of them.

teh flower is being sarcastic.

16 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:03:54pm

re: #6 teh flowah

If you intended for their to be a /sarc tag on that and just forgot it, then I will apologize in advance for this...

Youtube Video
17 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:04:27pm

re: #9 metrolibertarian

It has nothing to do with Jews, but nice try dipshit.

you have made you opinion quite clear.

18 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:04:41pm

re: #11 Gus 802

Although, to be honest, this video might have the reverse effect and wind up getting the GOP to support cap and trade. If you know what I mean.


I thought the same thing.

19 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:04:50pm

re: #15 Gus 802

Missed that.

20 metrolibertarian  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:05:18pm

re: #4 brookly red

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Try reading before being stupid.

21 abolitionist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:05:20pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

I thought the same thing.

Ditto.

22 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:06:16pm

Define: "Pretty comfy lifestyle..."?

Tell that to the 10% unemployed in the US.

23 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:07:11pm

re: #21 abolitionist

The money involved here can buy a lot of politicians of any stripe.

24 ryannon  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:07:39pm

re: #9 metrolibertarian

It has nothing to do with Jews, but nice try dipshit.

Let's see here... if it had everything to do with the Jooos would he still be a dipshit?

25 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:07:47pm

re: #20 metrolibertarian

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Try reading before being stupid.

you quote the rollingstone & call me stupid? GAZE

26 Sam N  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:08:23pm

The video was informative, but I'm still left unsure what to do about AGW other than largely eliminating fossil fuel subsidies and funding green energy research.

27 ryannon  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:09:51pm

re: #20 metrolibertarian

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Try reading before being stupid.

Must be Walter's night off.

28 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:10:19pm

re: #20 metrolibertarian

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Try reading before being stupid.

Rolling Stones? LOL

Matt Taibbi is a Gonzo shock journalist, his work demonising Wall Street is a case in point.

The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.

29 borgcube  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:10:25pm

After watching this, is it any surprise that global warming skeptics exist? Even while rightfully debunking the cap and trade scheme, we are treated to catastrophic almost doomsday-like predictions from an otherwise thoughtful presentation, albeit delivered as if the viewer was in the fourth grade at times. As long as this subject is treated by governments acting like a weirdo parading around with a "the end is near" sandwich board, it won't matter how good or bad the science is.

This video did something very well however. It reiterated rule numero uno: Follow the money. Always.

30 Sam N  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:10:42pm

re: #22 Oh no...Sand People!

Are you really going to argue that point given that the comparison is to the third world?

31 Tman  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:10:44pm

I can't stand it when people say we need to "stop" climate change.

The climate has and always will be in a constant state of change. How fast it is changing in regards to historical records, who and/or what is changing it, and what the consequences may be are the issues currently being investigated.

Pleas stop saying we must "stop" climate change.

32 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:10:57pm

Good Vid. I think a plain carbon tax with no loopholes is the way to do it:

[Link: www.carbontax.org...]

33 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:11:02pm

re: #25 brookly red

you quote the rollingstone & call me stupid? GAZE

Beat me to it.

34 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:11:08pm

re: #25 brookly red

WTF? Mention Goldman Sachs and all of a sudden you are blaming the Jews?

35 albusteve  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:11:20pm

re: #20 metrolibertarian

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Try reading before being stupid.

why so abrasive?...chill out a bit

36 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:12:06pm

re: #30 Sam N

Are you really going to argue that point given that the comparison is to the third world?


As a current resident in a 'third world'...yes.

37 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:12:27pm

re: #33 Bagua

Beat me to it.

don't worry plenty of room here...

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:13:09pm

re: #6 teh flowah

I thought Charles drank the AGW coolaid and was all for every single radical solution. Isn't that true? If you accept the truth of the science, clearly you must think it's the coming of the Apocalypse and we need to kill our economies.

So when you gather straw for building your straw man, is it locally farmed?

39 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:13:49pm

re: #5 lightspeed

Very nice analysis. I would have been better if it had been more secifically mentioned who will benefit from this boondoggle. Companies like GE, Goldman Sachs, and others in tight with the Obama White House stand to make billions from Cap and Trade. This, as much as anything, is what has soured me on the AGW movement. It has been hijacked by Al Gore and big businesses who want to rob the people of the world in a giant ponzi scheme. It is a frigtening prospect.

It has nothing to do with either political party as much as it does they relationship between money and power. You think these guys wouldn't (and haven't been) crawling up Republican asses just as fast?

The crooked connection between wall street and congress knows no party line.

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:15:01pm

re: #28 Bagua

Rolling Stones? LOL

Matt Taibbi is a Gonzo shock journalist, his work demonising Wall Street is a case in point.

The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.

He's also telling the truth, but hey! The truth's for sale for just one kiss.

41 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:16:06pm

re: #34 lightspeed

WTF? Mention Goldman Sachs and all of a sudden you are blaming the Jews?

No, blame mention GS in the same breath as you blame the for the mortgage crisis & well you either see it or you don't.

42 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:16:10pm

My main criticism of cap and trade is twofold:

1) it doesn't actually reduce emissions, but allows the emissions to be traded among various entities;
2) the costs of this will be passed on to the consumer - companies aren't going to internalize the cost, but pass it along to the consumer.

If you're a low-emitter, you can sell your share to others (which under fiscally responsible corporate boards would be the prudent and right thing to do for shareholders and those accountable for profits). That means that your share gets sent to someone else.

Governments can say that they want to reduce emissions by X in a given year, but it isn't in their national interest to do so - they need economic growth. It runs contrary to the need to reduce emissions to meet targets.

43 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:16:41pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

He's also telling the truth, but hey! The truth's for sale for just one kiss.

I see, so the evil Zionists do have the world strangled like a giant squid?

You are quoting Rolling Stones and barking about "the truth". Cute.

44 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:18:06pm

re: #39 Conservative Moonbat

It has nothing to do with either political party as much as it does they relationship between money and power. You think these guys wouldn't (and haven't been) crawling up Republican asses just as fast?

The crooked connection between wall street and congress knows no party line.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The Dems are in power now, but these guys were cozied up to the Bush administration as well. Let's not forget that Bush (and former Goldman Sachs Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson) let Lehman Brothers fail but bailed out Goldman Sachs. If Enron were still around they would have been a power broker under Bush. As you said, corruption knows no party.

45 abolitionist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:18:11pm

re: #29 borgcube

[snip]
This video did something very well however. It reiterated rule numero uno: Follow the money. Always.

Good post.

46 kingkenrod  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:18:45pm

Another reason why cap-n-trade is popular with politicians is that it makes energy price hikes appear to come from the polluters rather than Congress. It's a hidden tax on the cost of energy.

I mean Congress could discourage the use of CO2 emitting fuel by just taxing the hell out of them and using the proceeds to support clean alternatives. Problem solved. But politically it's not possible.

47 ryannon  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:19:24pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

He's also telling the truth, but hey! The truth's for sale for just one kiss.

...my tuchus.

48 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:20:04pm

re: #41 brookly red

No, blame mention GS in the same breath as you blame the for the mortgage crisis & well you either see it or you don't.

Guess I don't. I mentioned GS, and I don't want it falsely implied that somehow that is anti-semitic.

49 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:20:33pm

I thought this was an excellent video. The cap and trade debate was confusing me, and I wasn't sure what to think, but this answered a few very important questions for me. Thank you so much for sharing it, Charles.

50 Racer X  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:22:04pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

I thought this was an excellent video. The cap and trade debate was confusing me, and I wasn't sure what to think, but this answered a few very important questions for me. Thank you so much for sharing it, Charles.

What she said.

Thanks Charles!

51 political lunatic  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:22:56pm

OT: Climate change deniers try to hack for "info" AGAIN- this time at a university in Canada. Big oil is scared.

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

52 Racer X  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:23:08pm

I still blame the hippies for stopping the expansion of our nuclear power industry.

53 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:23:24pm

re: #48 lightspeed

Guess I don't. I mentioned GS, and I don't want it falsely implied that somehow that is anti-semitic.

Watch the vid again, in the first 60: they mention GS & then imply that they were to blame for the mortgage crises as if it were a matter of fact, yes the devil is in the detail.

54 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:24:25pm

re: #6 teh flowah

I thought Charles drank the AGW coolaid and was all for every single radical solution. Isn't that true? If you accept the truth of the science, clearly you must think it's the coming of the Apocalypse and we need to kill our economies.

I don't think folks get your sense of humor.

55 iheartbolton  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:24:45pm

wait, so the climate change industry is a racket?
who knew

56 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:24:53pm

re: #51 political lunatic

OT: Climate change deniers try to hack for "info" AGAIN- this time at a university in Canada. Big oil is scared.

That's not off-topic...it's right on-topic. The efforts to discredit scientists have a lot of money behind them.

57 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:26:20pm

re: #51 political lunatic

OT: Climate change deniers try to hack for "info" AGAIN- this time at a university in Canada. Big oil is scared.

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

To be fair, there's no proof big oil has anything to do with with it. Somebody in the denialist movement has decided to take things up a notch for sure though.

58 Sam N  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:26:22pm

re: #36 Oh no...Sand People!

Please flesh out your reasoning. I would be interested in why you disagree with the conventional wisdom, which is backed by measurements of percentage going hungry, percentage living in poverty, etc.

59 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:27:20pm

re: #38 WindUpBird

So when you gather straw for building your straw man, is it locally farmed?

'teh flowah' has always been cool. Pretty sure that comment was a joke.

60 Racer X  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:27:49pm

Wasn't Al Gore heavily promoting the sale of carbon offset credits?

61 Cato the Elder  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:27:58pm

re: #48 lightspeed

Guess I don't. I mentioned GS, and I don't want it falsely implied that somehow that is anti-semitic.

If Merrill Lynch were still around, they would still be bloodsuckers. WASP bloodsuckers.

62 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:28:29pm

re: #53 brookly red

Watch the vid again, in the first 60: they mention GS & then imply that they were to blame for the mortgage crises as if it were a matter of fact, yes the devil is in the detail.

OK, watched it again. Still not getting the anti-semitism. Anti-Wall Street, yes...

63 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:28:37pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

updinged as well, as it was obviously snark...one thing I've noticed in my 15 years (going back to running a BBS pre-web browsing) of online chatting/forums/blogs/etc. is that people have a difficult time recognizing satire...of course, Jonathan Swift discovered this 290 years ago when he penned A Modest Proposal.

64 Kruk  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:30:40pm

re: #57 Conservative Moonbat

To be fair, there's no proof big oil has anything to do with with it. Somebody in the denialist movement has decided to take things up a notch for sure though.

I'm pretty sure the gloves will be coming off all around, and the scientific community has a lot more tech savvy people in its ranks. I sure hope the denialist movement doesn't have anything in their e-mails or other communications that they would like to hide...

65 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:31:22pm

re: #54 Sharmuta
If you are right I should undo my downding.
re: #6 teh flowah

Just forgot your sarc tag?

66 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:31:34pm

re: #62 lightspeed

OK, watched it again. Still not getting the anti-semitism. Anti-Wall Street, yes...

It's OK, it was subtle...

67 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:31:58pm

re: #65 Rightwingconspirator

Flowah has a long history of snarky comments that make great points.

68 albusteve  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:32:21pm

he said, she said...I'm waiting for the bill...I don't trust anybody concerned with AGW

69 Pepper Fox  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:34:14pm

ugh. Palin is at Ft. Hood as we speak.

70 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:34:36pm

re: #58 Sam N

Please flesh out your reasoning. I would be interested in why you disagree with the conventional wisdom, which is backed by measurements of percentage going hungry, percentage living in poverty, etc.

No time for it, but thanks.

But if this will make you feel better, as a parting present for you, they just put up a new post.

www.theeestory.com

'If' this works...kiss all your cap and trade / carbon pollution / AGW goodbye.

71 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:34:50pm

re: #66 brookly red

Very, very thin. Moving on...

72 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:35:14pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

Okay, down undone and one up.
If you trust that it's a joke, I'll bet you are right. I hate to wrongly downding.

73 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:35:38pm

re: #26 Sam N

The video was informative, but I'm still left unsure what to do about AGW other than largely eliminating fossil fuel subsidies and funding green energy research.

You're not as unsure as you think.

74 Racer X  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:35:55pm

I would gave more respect for Obama if he announced that the U.S. was going to create 127,000 new jobs in the nuclear power construction sector.

1 new plant a month is all I ask.

75 brookly red  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:36:07pm

re: #69 Pepper Fox

ugh. Palin is at Ft. Hood as we speak.

How do they like her?

76 Racer X  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:36:29pm

PIFW

77 shala  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:36:45pm

A great and informative video, thank you. I'm one of those who generally supports environmental programs, but Cap and Trade has bothered me ever since I heard of it. It runs too big a risk of driving up oil prices, which as we know drives up the price of gas and basic commodities, so the poor will get especially hurt. It would just deepen our current economic problems.

78 Ojoe  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:37:04pm

Cap and trade has the potential to introduce a lot of malfeasance, fraud, and criminality into the efforts of easing the rate of climate change.

Maybe on that account it is not such a good idea.

79 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:39:04pm

re: #3 metrolibertarian

It's simply another market for Goldman-Sachs and other classic market manipulators to engage in their classic brand of thievery. Matt Taibbi broke down how companies like GS are already getting involved in the hardly in existence market.

Here's another report from several months ago:

How Goldman secretly bet on the U.S. housing crash
By Greg Gordon %P% McClatchy Newspapers

In 2006 and 2007, Goldman Sachs Group peddled more than $40 billion in securities backed by at least 200,000 risky home mortgages, but never told the buyers that it also was secretly betting that a sharp drop in U.S. housing prices would send the value of those securities plummeting.

Now, a five-month McClatchy investigation has found that Goldman's failure to disclose those secret bets may have violated securities laws

SNIP

80 abolitionist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:39:09pm

re: #78 Ojoe

Cap and trade has the potential to introduce a lot of malfeasance, fraud, and criminality into the efforts of easing the rate of climate change.

Maybe on that account it is not such a good idea.

Compared to Cap & Trade, wasn't Oil-for-Food a fairly simple idea?

81 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:40:38pm

re: #6 teh flowah

I thought Charles drank the AGW coolaid and was all for every single radical solution. Isn't that true? If you accept the truth of the science, clearly you must think it's the coming of the Apocalypse and we need to kill our economies.

I'm learning that Charles is a more thoughtful and complex fellow than the blogosphere would have you believe.

82 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:41:12pm

re: #52 Racer X

I still blame the hippies for stopping the expansion of our nuclear power industry.

seconded

83 Cato the Elder  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:41:43pm

Cap'n Trade is first cousin to Cap'n Kidd.

84 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:42:33pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

You sure? I thought it was Cap'n Crunch...

85 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:43:40pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Eh. It's called hedging. The only notable aspect was that so few other banks failed to do so.

86 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:44:55pm

re: #79 Gus 802


You mean to say they hedged their positions? Oh those sinister geniuses!

87 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:45:08pm

re: #85 Aceofwhat?

Eh. It's called hedging. The only notable aspect was that so few other banks failed to do so.

Regardless. I have not sympathy or allegiance to GS. Don't see why they had to become the focus of this thread anyway.

88 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:45:50pm

re: #86 Bagua

You mean to say they hedged their positions? Oh those sinister geniuses!

I don't care.

89 ryannon  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:45:53pm

re: #82 Aceofwhat?

seconded

Especially the Big Oil hippies.

They were the worst of the whole smelly lot.

90 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:46:04pm

re: #69 Pepper Fox

ugh. Palin is at Ft. Hood as we speak.

Was Palin's appearance at Ft. Hood a coincidence? Her supporters will say so. But to anyone with a half a brain, it's obviously an attempt to use the tragedy that happened there as a way of getting more people to a) buy her book and b) pay attention to her. And while there won't be any speeches at Ft. Hood, you can be sure she'll be all over Fox tomorrow talking about how awful the shooting there was, how she gave comfort to the victims (while charging them 16 bucks to get their picture taken with her), and how President Obama isn't paying enough attention to the troops.

91 lightspeed  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:46:34pm

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Hmmm. Come to think of it, Cap'n Kidd (as in kidding or scamming) and Cap'n Crunch(as in destroying the economy) are both better monikers than Cap'n Trade.

92 Achilles Tang  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:46:39pm

The video does a good job of pointing out the devils in the details, and I agree fully with those. Unfortunately the other side of the coin presented was essentially only "let the government dictate", but we certainly can't dictate what other governments do and this has to be a solution that is self regulating on a planetary level. To that extent market forces are the only direction to go; but markets can be manipulated by governments just like currencies can be.

This all seems like smoke and mirrors to me. One can either deny the whole thing is an issue, or if not one has to face the fact that however it is packaged the bottom line amounts to a tax on carbon and a subsidy for non carbon. Ideally the latter paying for the former.

93 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:47:09pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Regardless. I have not sympathy or allegiance to GS. Don't see why they had to become the focus of this thread anyway.

But you were quick to jump into the witch hunt.

Just understand Gus, journalists are hacks with an agenda.

94 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:48:29pm

re: #77 shala

Welcome, hatchling!

95 Gus  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:49:04pm

re: #93 Bagua

But you were quick to jump into the witch hunt.

Just understand Gus, journalists are hacks with an agenda.

I wasn't going to post it actually. Was in the middle of checking out McClatchy because I know they're out in left field sometimes. Was going to click onto the next thread and hit post. Maybe I would have posted it.

I don't understand the hair trigger reactions in this place sometimes.

96 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:50:11pm

re: #89 ryannon

Especially the Big Oil hippies.

They were the worst of the whole smelly lot.

Seriously. smell of hippies + smell of oil = lots of smell, all of it bad.

97 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:50:19pm

re: #95 Gus 802

I wasn't going to post it actually. Was in the middle of checking out McClatchy because I know they're out in left field sometimes. Was going to click onto the next thread and hit post. Maybe I would have posted it.

I don't understand the hair trigger reactions in this place sometimes.

No problemo mate, it is just a touchy issue.

98 Achilles Tang  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #86 Bagua

You mean to say they hedged their positions? Oh those sinister geniuses!

Is that an invisible sarc tag?

If you did it I would say good for you. The problem with GS is that they are market makers and advisers. You know the difference I am sure.

99 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:51:19pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

I thought this was an excellent video. The cap and trade debate was confusing me, and I wasn't sure what to think, but this answered a few very important questions for me. Thank you so much for sharing it, Charles.

ditto... oops, sorry, has Rush coyrighted that yet? If so then, I agree.

100 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:54:35pm

re: #52 Racer X

I still blame the hippies for stopping the expansion of our nuclear power industry.

Damned hippies. I thought I was a hippie back in the '70s but I had two bad habits, daily showers and a steady job.

Long hair does not a hippie make.

101 Bagua  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:55:36pm

re: #98 Naso Tang

Is that an invisible sarc tag?

If you did it I would say good for you. The problem with GS is that they are market makers and advisers. You know the difference I am sure.

Yes I was being sarcastic. There is no evidence GS did anything wrong. Hedging off their risk in the face of an uncertain market is the sensible and correct thing to do. That some ignorant MSM hack sees this as "making secret bets on a housing decline" is typical of the tripe we see in the media.

102 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:56:09pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

I don't think folks get your sense of humor.

I'm afraid I missed it - sorry teh flowah.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:56:51pm

re: #22 Oh no...Sand People!

Define: "Pretty comfy lifestyle..."?

Tell that to the 10% unemployed in the US.

I'm married to one of them. We may be broke as hell, but we're still better off than, well, most of the globe.

104 researchok  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:57:49pm

re: #42 lawhawk

My main criticism of cap and trade is twofold:

1) it doesn't actually reduce emissions, but allows the emissions to be traded among various entities;
2) the costs of this will be passed on to the consumer - companies aren't going to internalize the cost, but pass it along to the consumer.

If you're a low-emitter, you can sell your share to others (which under fiscally responsible corporate boards would be the prudent and right thing to do for shareholders and those accountable for profits). That means that your share gets sent to someone else.

Governments can say that they want to reduce emissions by X in a given year, but it isn't in their national interest to do so - they need economic growth. It runs contrary to the need to reduce emissions to meet targets.

The video does highlight some of the problems with cap and trade, but the proposed solutions pose a whole other set of issues, not the least of which is how this will effect foreign trade.

Experience has taught us that irrespective of the trade treaties we sign with second and third world nations, we end up abiding by them for the most part while those nations thumb their noses at us and do as they as they.

China and India have already that reduced carbon emissions aren't high national priorities.

105 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 4:59:12pm

re: #63 darthstar

(going back to running a BBS pre-web browsing)

You too?! Damned glad to meet you.

106 Achilles Tang  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:04:26pm

re: #101 Bagua

Yes I was being sarcastic. There is no evidence GS did anything wrong. Hedging off their risk in the face of an uncertain market is the sensible and correct thing to do. That some ignorant MSM hack sees this as "making secret bets on a housing decline" is typical of the tripe we see in the media.

Yes, but you ignore my main point. GS can make the market move up or down a noticeable amount based on what they do or what they say. I'm not sure if you understand the games that can be played in that arena, or the laws that define what is legal and what is not.

107 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:06:00pm

re: #105 BruceKelly

I ran a BBS for incarcerated and at-risk youth just after I got my teaching credential in 2003 (was a teacher for the County of Sacramento's Youth Education Services program...it failed due to bad management, of course). But it was a lot of fun.

108 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:07:53pm

re: #91 lightspeed

Hmmm. Come to think of it, Cap'n Kidd (as in kidding or scamming) and Cap'n Crunch(as in destroying the economy) are both better monikers than Cap'n Trade.

Quite Concur. I can't get behind the idea this vid proposes. I will never favor giving governments the sort of economic powers cap and trade requires.

In matters economic: In government, Dark_Falcon does not trust.

109 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:14:41pm

re: #107 darthstar

I ran a BBS for incarcerated and at-risk youth just after I got my teaching credential in 2003 (was a teacher for the County of Sacramento's Youth Education Services program...it failed due to bad management, of course). But it was a lot of fun.

I ran a RA (Remote Access) board from 1989 until the mid '90s. It was a lot of fun. We were so elite back then with our 1200kbs modems.

110 BruceKelly  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:19:12pm

re: #6 teh flowah

Sorry for the downding teh flowah. It's been corrected.

111 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:31:18pm

re: #8 karmic_inquisitor

Related - India reiterates that it will absolutely not accept any legally binding carbon limits in Copenhagen while saying it will cut carbon intensity by 20% (non binding).

[Link: www.thehindubusinessline.com...]

If you look at this graphic to see what offering a "20% cut" by a country that is growing that rapidly is no cut and is, instead, a license to import even more energy intensive industries.

Sham.

Yuppers. And guess how the developed world is going to meet a large portion of the cuts they'll agree to? By shipping their dirtier manufacturing to...India and China. Same amount of pollution - probably more, actually, given the almost complete lack of actual environmental regulations in those countries, compared to the stringent ones in place in the US and elsewhere - and fewer jobs in those industries in the West.

Which is OK, I guess, as long as we have a cheap source for Happy Meal toys.

112 kf  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:31:39pm

Interesting that Annie chose not to mention Gore. Gore would be a rather large beneficiary of the cap & trade legislation because of his ownership interest in carbon marketplaces and related businesses (not just a talking point, even the New York Times has covered this). It's also noteworthy that James Hansen, the 'father' of the global warming movement, has come out very very very strongly against cap & trade (blasting it as wholly ineffective). No matter which side of the AGW debate you're on, cap & trade is just about the worst possible legislation. I may disagree with the reasoning behind her opposition but the video does an excellent job at explaining just how worthless cap & trade is. I was actually expecting to hate the video (well I did hate the "ecological debt" bit), because The Story of Stuff is rife with egregious errors (even a high school economics student would recognize them), and is borderline propaganda.

113 ingenu  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:38:13pm

The speaker in the video says: "This is the gravest crisis humanity has ever faced."

Anyone who is neither a believer nor a denier might well wonder whether this either is or can be "settled science."

114 darthstar  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:42:26pm

re: #109 BruceKelly

1200 baud was plenty when the internet was text-only. Webcrawler was the first search engine I used (via telnet) and it was fast, and most of the results were appropriate (.edu sites as I was doing a lot of research)

115 shala  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 5:43:03pm

re: #94 Floral Giraffe

Thanks Floral Giraffe, glad to be here!

116 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 6:17:26pm

re: #113 ingenu

That's your first comment in almost two years. Where have you been?

117 swamprat  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 7:11:48pm

There is an on-going revolution with regards to energy consumption that has been quietly ignored. This revolution will replace many inefficient devices already in use. Further, many devices that are efficient, but pose an environmental danger, can now be replaced with safer, and yet even more efficient devices. And even further, battery operated devices, are lasting longer, with greater efficiency, and causing fewer batteries to be consumed, thus lowering the amount of pollution from this very troubling source of toxicity.

I'm talking about the new L.E.D. technology. You won't believe how much this is going to help. This is real, this is effective and this is vastly under reported. This is just getting started and it is going to be big. I may seek out some of these guys and invest.

Yeah, I know. I'm the big denier, etc. But this is real conservation. Bulbs that are brighter, use less juice, don't contain mercury, and never need replacing. It's a new world.

118 arielle  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 7:17:43pm

So I watched both videos and I admit I expected to hate them. I am pleasantly surprised that while I didn't agree with everything the videos talked about, I did agree with quite a bit and found it pretty educational and easy to understand. I definitely agree that we are a society that consumes too much STUFF (that was the other video, I think). Suze Orman talks a lot about that, how our desire for STUFF gets in the way of life and ultimately in our ability to retire comfortably, because we were too busy buying crap.

119 gulfloafer  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 7:42:13pm

What ever happened with the whole hydrogen fix?

120 swamprat  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 7:49:10pm

re: #119 gulfloafer

Need nuke plants to make it work. Sort of a "tipping point" scenario; Nukes are built to lower global warming, then the cheap electricity from the nukes can provide the hydrogen to lower global warming even further. But hydrogen is devilishly hard to contain because the molecule is so small.

121 gulfloafer  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 7:55:45pm

re: #120 swamprat
Like the old saying goes 'necessity is the mother of invention', operative word being necessity.

122 Timmeh  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 8:48:12pm

Well, that was a pretty good case against Cap & Trade.
I'm not quite sure what the alternative is, though.
I know that many of the attempts made so far have been completely ineffective and even had perverse consequences, as is mentioned in the video. I don't trust "offsets." She's definitely right about that. Anyone wanna pay me to not drive my car? ;)

"This is the gravest crisis humanity has ever faced"
If the above is true, we're screwed. I don't doubt the science of global warming, but I'm very skeptical that as a species we can prevent it given efforts so far.
If 350 ppm is the safe limit and we are already at 387, it seems like a forgone conclusion.
Maybe an agreement to accept climate refugees?

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 9:06:21pm

Reeeally appreciated this video. Thanks!

124 dugmartsch  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 9:12:04pm

re: #74 Racer X

I would gave more respect for Obama if he announced that the U.S. was going to create 127,000 new jobs in the nuclear power construction sector.

1 new plant a month is all I ask.

That's all you ask? I'd have more respect for him, too, because his name would be Genie and he'd be granting wishes.

Do you think maybe your expectations are a little lofty? In two years you'd have more nuclear reactors than were built in the preceding fifty.

125 Irenicum  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 9:18:50pm

Thanks for the Cap and Trade tutorial Charles. Honestly, this issue has left me beyond perplexed. And I say this as someone who has always been strongly environmentalist in my orientation. Any "solution" that uses the same methods as Bernie Madoff's pyramidal techniques sends up serious red flags. Expecting the "market" to solve all our problems assumes that the markets are free from the taint of short term (and deluded to boot) self interest. And as a Christian who believes that every human institution is tainted, I can't buy into that. We face a grave threat to human well being by our own actions with AGW. As a Christian and as a person who believes in the evolutionary process, this means I want us to survive and thrive while accounting for the impact we have on the environment surrounding us. What it means we have to do is another question that I still am left unsure of. But this info helps and narrows the options available to an ethical person, whether Christian or not. This is one of those issues where I could care less what you believe ultimately (well, I do. But you know what I mean), but am glad to have your company on making our planet more healthy and habitable.

126 apb1  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 10:45:49pm

Eh - at least Annie's a happy idiot.

Back up 10 steps - until someone comes up with true averages for Earth's O2/CO2 ratios and temperature, I'd suggest that any 'crisis' terminology be canned; its only purpose is to enrich con men and doom-sayers alike. Since the planet's plant and animal life flourished through CO2 levels 4 or more times the current level (without being burned to a crisp), I'd have to throw in my 2 cents that this is all a load of crap.

Here's the simplest bit- all the demagoguery and money grubbing is based on computer models - models that can't even replicate our current conditions based on existing data. Period. The models have shown nothing related to our past 10 years' cooling trend through increased CO2. Now, courtesy of an inside source ('hacked' is a stupid term - there's a reason the content didn't contain things of a highly personal nature) we have evidence of nothing less than fraud.

127 Olsonist  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 10:46:55pm

I was very impressed by the video and went back and watched her earlier video The Story Of Stuff as well. She has a gift. Cap and Trade already gave me a queasy feeling and Leonard gave me a better diagnosis of its failings.

Cap and Trade is just a Shell game. Money is moving around but the pollution is staying the same since the emphasis is on trading credits rather than enforcement of caps. The money is real and the lost opportunity is real. Unfortunately, the solution is not real.

128 Ron Bacardi  Fri, Dec 4, 2009 10:53:52pm

God willing, Cap and Trade will be dead in the water.

I've been back and forth on Global Warming for a while now, and I've seen a lot of spin on both sides. I don't know who to believe anymore because there are highly credentialed scientists on both sides making compelling cases; but they also have questionable fundings and potential fiduciary interests in making their cases. It's annoying.

129 kittysaidwoof  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:47:14am

very nice looking presentation.

I'm afraid the content is weak though, especially on the solution side. For instance I don't get what the "paying off the ecological debt" is going to do to help fight climate change. It is a typical wealth distribution scheme which is going to mess up third world economies even more. Similarly its belief that the government can just cap and fine the problem away is laughable in its naivety. That would merely cap and fine business bankrupt in your country and transfer the business elsewhere, where there are less people concerned about climate change and more concerned by for example getting their economy jumpstarted.

Also in its eagerness to paint banks and business as evil it glosses over government role in creating the subprime crisis and more importantly the role of food industries and agriculture in the carbon emissions. Its not going to be funny when the price of food is going to do the trick the gas at the pump did in the video.

Oh, and leave the carbon safely in the ground is a winner. Given that I'm just a bunch of various carbon compounds I need to dig myself a grave and rest there safely.

This is why I am so skeptical of the whole AGW stuff. While I am not competent to make up my mind about it, what I'm told we need to do about it in sleek presentations such as this just plain reeks of hidden agendas. Mostly massive wealth distributions which will have absolutely no effect to the supposed AGW.

I really really wish proponents of AGW started an honest discussion on the solutions which did not include their pet policy agendas. I am afraid so far the most honest guys seem to be the crazies here who say that AGW can be stopped only as follows:
1. stop democracy and install totalitarian world government (I've no idea how they think they could do it)
2. institute world wide one child policy
3. kill off significant proportion of urban population by poisoning their water supply

That would dramatically reduce carbon emissions. I've no idea how to get there, but the original communist ideas seemed crackpot aswell, but they did at one point rule half the world. Personally, I'd rather suffocate to death from the excess carbon than participate in such a scheme.

130 RogueOne  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:18:59am

re: #127 Olsonist

I was very impressed by the video and went back and watched her earlier video The Story Of Stuff as well. She has a gift. Cap and Trade already gave me a queasy feeling and Leonard gave me a better diagnosis of its failings.

I knew I had heard her name before so I did the same. I read something about her book awhile ago..
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
but can't remember where. After watching "The Story of Stuff" video I'm also left with a queasy feeling, but for opposite reasons than yours. Since I agree with her basic argument that Cap and Trade is a scam, I have to go back and re-evaluate that belief.

131 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:51:19am

What will it take to convince the Chinese not to build one new coal power plant per week?

132 kittysaidwoof  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 6:09:05am

I watched the story of stuff by the same group and was horrified. Then the fat banker meme was last time utilized in sleek presentations in Europe with a similar message, tens if not hundreds of millions died and the resulting societies simply exchanged the method of societal rank from ability to make money to ability to strike fear in the hearts of your fellow citizens while appearing as harmless to those on higher rungs of power. Maybe it would help if they'd stop the demonizing and spend more time on the solution they want to propagate, it would be more convincing.

133 citybilly  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 7:05:37am

when i was calling BS on cap and trade a few years ago i was called a reactionary, a Rush Koolaid drinker ect by the Kos Kids. I agree with the points made about the scams that are possible in cap and trade but that does not make capitalism free market incapable of fixing the problem.
that's the kind of all or nothing argument anti vaccers make about the flu vac.
"well its only 70%" effective there for its worthless. ect ... Big econ models know how to handle error, fraud.
i do think the the only way to address GW is with the free market , i just don't know if Cap and trade is the way to do it.

when terms like "Pay our ecological debt" get tossed around it makes me think this is more about western guilt. there was no alternative offered to cap and trade but it did outline some things on a possible solution must consider.
1. if it comes from the free market its a trick and therefore a distraction.
2. the united states should pay for it all, or the 3rd world part or else no one else will agree to it.

the way i see it, if we are serious about cutting CO2 we need to go on a massive Nuke power program and start shutting down coal power. its the only way we can make cheep clean energy. its the only way we can cut co2 in a real way and still not cripple our econ.

134 gulfloafer  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 9:21:55am

re: #129 kittysaidwoof
You're absolutely right. It's an agenda built on the notion of a transfer of wealth. It's the same old worn-out discredited story packaged in a shiny new box.

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

135 Stanley  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 9:24:10am

Environmental Justice. I lol'd on that one.

If this woman really believes what she was saying in this video, she would be calling to make burning wood, coal, oil and gas for power and cooking illegal. She would also propose a way to cut the worlds population by billions in a very short time.

That's the only way to stop global warming. With our current technology, anyway.

136 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:08:28am

re: #4 brookly red

Goldman Sachs Is the problem? Oy, I see where this is going...

Don't forget Al Gore. Who wants to help Al Gore get any richer? He's out pitching this stuff and raking in the money or so I understand.

137 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:13:13am

re: #5 lightspeed

Very nice analysis. I would have been better if it had been more secifically mentioned who will benefit from this boondoggle. Companies like GE, Goldman Sachs, and others in tight with the Obama White House stand to make billions from Cap and Trade. This, as much as anything, is what has soured me on the AGW movement. It has been hijacked by Al Gore and big businesses who want to rob the people of the world in a giant ponzi scheme. It is a frigtening prospect.

Absolutely correct. We are going to get steam rolled again.

138 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:18:25am

re: #13 Oh no...Sand People!

"Pay our ecological debt..."

So excited to use my money to buy carbon credits to pay for my eco sins...
/not.

Yes here I sit in my hovel trying to stay warm/cool being lectured to by the likes of a Al Gore jetting around the world.
Nice video and I enjoyed it Charles but I have been onto these fools from the start.

When are we going to permit and build nuclear power plants (preferably out of earthquake zones)?

139 Deseeded  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:26:18am

Whatever happened to open debate that required both sides to first take a position on the opposite side and then rationalize backwards to an answer? If I used the same techniques that are on display on both sides in my lab I would be driven out because of it.

Here's hoping rationality returns and the science settles itself without politics. The two were never a good couple anyway.

140 ParisParamus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:32:56am

When will we know who the Deep Throat--HOT THROAT--of Climategate is? He deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom!

141 Achilles Tang  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 10:52:58am

re: #136 Blueheron

Don't forget Al Gore. Who wants to help Al Gore get any richer? He's out pitching this stuff and raking in the money or so I understand.

I get really tired of hearing people (including Hannity and Inhofe last night) bitch about those who have more money than they do, and spend it. I could care less about how big Al Gore's boat is, when presented as an idiot's argument against AGW.

I have an idea, let's discuss the Pope and the Vatican and whether or not that lifestyle fits with Christianity, and while we are making rational arguments, what the hell is the President of The United States doing flying around on a private 747 anyway? Where does he think he is, Dubai?

142 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 11:09:17am

re: #141 Naso Tang

I get really tired of hearing people (including Hannity and Inhofe last night) bitch about those who have more money than they do, and spend it. I could care less about how big Al Gore's boat is, when presented as an idiot's argument against AGW.

I have an idea, let's discuss the Pope and the Vatican and whether or not that lifestyle fits with Christianity, and while we are making rational arguments, what the hell is the President of The United States doing flying around on a private 747 anyway? Where does he think he is, Dubai?

I don't give a flying leap if he is rich I just don't want him to lecture me on cutting back. When I get my jet he can come and talk to me about buying trees to offset the jet fuel I am burning. Good grief.

143 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 11:11:43am

re: #142 Blueheron

I don't give a flying leap if he is rich I just don't want him to lecture me on cutting back. When I get my jet he can come and talk to me about buying trees from himto offset the jet fuel I am burning. Good grief.

144 Jerusalemyte  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:09:22pm

What I want to know is who paid for this and what's their angle?

145 Achilles Tang  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:28:41pm

re: #144 Jerusalemyte

What I want to know is who paid for this and what's their angle?

Are you off your meds again?

146 gvmtspook  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:28:29pm

Cap & Trade still makes sense to me if you eliminate the loopholes that allow for scamming of the system, backed with criminal damages for the executives of these corporations, or individuals who perpetuate these scams. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

Additionally make the unit small enough that small businesses and individuals can also trade in this market. E.g. I lower my household use of grid electricity = X units which I can then trade on the market, etc.

147 Achilles Tang  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:32:41pm

re: #142 Blueheron

I don't give a flying leap if he is rich I just don't want him to lecture me on cutting back. When I get my jet he can come and talk to me about buying trees to offset the jet fuel I am burning. Good grief.

Tell him you are on the do not call registry. Works for me because I can't remember the last time he tried to lecture me.

148 gvmtspook  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:38:15pm

Forgot to add, while I appreciate the information of this video, the way it is presented is an insult.

It is condescending and looks like it is targeting children. I take issue with any organization on any part of the political landscape who thinks their target audience can't think for themselves when presented with the full facts. The right has every reason to call the left elitist, when presented with this sort of presentation.

They would do much better if they gave me the facts, as well as the argument against their viewpoint, in a direct and transparent manner, while speaking to an educated adult audience.

149 Achilles Tang  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:47:50pm

re: #148 gvmtspook


They would do much better if they gave me the facts, as well as the argument against their viewpoint, in a direct and transparent manner, while speaking to an educated adult audience.

What makes you think they intended to speak to an educated "adult" audience only?

150 gvmtspook  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:55:27pm

re: #133 citybilly


the way i see it, if we are serious about cutting CO2 we need to go on a massive Nuke power program and start shutting down coal power. its the only way we can make cheep clean energy. its the only way we can cut co2 in a real way and still not cripple our econ.

I agree totally with this statement. I find it funny that the eco-political groups thew such a fit over nuclear energy, forcing us as a nation to stay with fossil fuels. This is turn caused decades and millions or billions of metric tons of GHG and other pollutions to enter our atmosphere causing either causing or greatly increasing the GW situation.

151 gvmtspook  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:02:34pm

re: #149 Naso Tang

What makes you think they intended to speak to an educated "adult" audience only?

I assume they are targeting the American voter, as that is where the support would have to come from, according to this video. I am not so jaded as to believe the average American adult is now at a intellectual, emotional, and educational level of a 4th grader (note I did say average obviously the fringe elements on both sides probably do not fit this description). To think otherwise would be elitist, no?

Now if they are targeting the vast majority of Congress, then it is dead-on for the intended audience. ;)

152 Achilles Tang  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:48:24pm

re: #151 gvmtspook

I assume they are targeting the American voter, as that is where the support would have to come from, according to this video. I am not so jaded as to believe the average American adult is now at a intellectual, emotional, and educational level of a 4th grader (note I did say average obviously the fringe elements on both sides probably do not fit this description). To think otherwise would be elitist, no?

I learned a few things from the video, but then I am above average and an elitist, so I have no problem admitting that. Why are you so shy?

153 yoshicastmaster  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 7:59:15am

wow- in my opinion that was a terrible explanation of cap and trade. Half of it was fear mongering- it's designed by enron! we're just going to destroy the third world! it didn't work in europe and will therefore never work! good grief.

154 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 12:52:35am

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