Robert Spencer Lies Again

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Anti-Muslim blogger Robert Spencer is at it again, with yet another rant about me, full of insults, vicious hatred, and completely dishonest claims:

When libelblogger and CAIR tool Charles Johnson began to betray all his principles and sling wild false accusations at his former friends and associates, I knew it was only a matter of time before he abandoned Israel and embraced the very same jihadists he used to oppose and mock so vociferously (and sometimes with a cringe-making hatefulness that has now been revealed as the one constant in his approach).

And now it is beginning: he has in a recent post approvingly quoted Elizabeth May, a venomous Israel-hater who spoke in August 2006 at an anti-Israel rally full of supporters of the jihad terrorist group Hizballah.

Thus using the very same fractured logic that Johnson has used to defame me and many others as racists, fascists, supporters of genocide, etc., the conclusion is clear: libelblogger Charles Johnson now supports Hizballah.

Hoist by his own petard.

And fractured logic aside, watch for Johnson’s abandonment of Israel — his new Leftist masters will demand it.

Elizabeth May is a “venomous Israel-hater” and a supporter of Hezbollah? Really?

I’m sure that will come as a surprise to her, and also to the Canadian Jewish Political Affaris Committee, one of the sponsors of the anti-war rally Spencer is raving about. Here’s Elizabeth May’s statement about this incident at the CJPAC website, after right wing bloggers tried to float the same dishonest claims Spencer is now using to smear me: Sep 23, 2008 statement by Elizabeth May on the issue of Hezbollah (‘Party of God’):

OTTAWA - Contrary to rumours circulating on the internet, Elizabeth May, Leader of the Green Party of Canada did not appear at a Hezbollah event two years ago.

August 12, 2006, Ms. May did speak at a peace rally in Toronto along with Jewish and Arab Canadians to call for an end to the violence then raging in the Middle East.

In her remarks she strongly condemned Hezbollah for launching rocket attacks in to Israel as well as Israel for the bombing of Lebanon.

The Green Party of Canada supports peaceful resolution acceptable to all parties in the Middle East.

And the real story of the Hezbollah supporters’ appearance at this rally is contained in a comment on this page, linking to a statement by the organizers: The Shotgun: Elizabeth May at anti-Israel rally.

The original call out letter for this rally contained endorsements from a bunch of moderate peace groups, including the “Jewish Women’s Committee to End the Occupation”. Hezbollah is not on the list of organizers or sponsors of the event.

There is a whole thread on rabble.ca with posts by the event planners. There are also posts from some participants talking about it the next day. The initial call out letter is available and so is a bunch of discussion about the confusion caused by the loose associations of the groups involved.

Most informative is a post from someone called “Ohara” on Aug 13, 2006. To wit:

“Though I was heartened to see that the marshalls took some action in demanding that terroism promoters and anti-Semites should go home.”

“Go organize your own rally, don’t sabotage (ours), he said”

So clearly the rally organizers had no desire to have Hezbollah and their ilk at the rally and told them to leave when they arrived.

The thread is right here read it for yourself: (rabble.ca) tinyurl.com [The link is several years old and no longer works, unfortunately. – ed.]

I think it is pretty clear that Elizabeth May received an invitation to speak at a peace rally (badly) organized by some moderate peace groups and that more radical groups crashed the event.

I would hope that responsible journalists would perform at least 15 minutes of research before posting such inflammatory material.

The ugly, dishonest tactics of Robert Spencer, in your face.

No, I have not abandoned Israel. I am not “aligned with Hezbollah,” and neither is Elizabeth May, who I’m quite sure is a leftist, but not a supporter of Hezbollah. I quoted Elizabeth May’s opinion on the stolen CRU emails, which has nothing to do with this anti-war rally, and Spencer and his friend Pamela Geller dig up a years-old, completely false accusation about May, and use that to smear me.

It’s crystal clear that this latest rant is nothing but a reactionary attempt to divert attention away from Spencer’s and Geller’s own associations with bigots and extremists. For just one recent example out of many, see: Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller’s Rally: ‘Islam Is of the Devil’.

Spencer is simply lying. Again. And what he’s doing here is absolutely libelous.

UPDATE at 12/5/09 12:39:33 pm:

It’s also noteworthy in light of Spencer’s rant to point out that in 2008, Elizabeth May kicked out an antisemitic candidate from the Green Party.

NEW GLASGOW – The Green Party has announced that John Shavluk will not be the candidate for the party in Newton—North Delta, following revelations that he made comments in 2006 on an online discussion forum that could be construed as anti-Semitic.

“Respect for diversity is a fundamental principle of the Green Party,” said leader Elizabeth May. “We condemn anti-Semitism and our members work to encourage respectful dialogue, diversity, peace and cooperation.

“I communicated with John and thanked him for his work on behalf of the Green Party but explained that he will not be a candidate because his views are not consistent with our philosophy. I will not sign his nomination papers and the Green Party will nominate another candidate.”

(Hat tip: researchok.)

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330 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:00:41pm

Robert and Pamela have never allowed FACTS to get in the way of their smears.

2 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:01:46pm

Buncha weenies on the internetz.

3 jaunte  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:02:06pm

Are we going to get checks from our Leftist masters now?

4 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #3 jaunte

Are we going to get checks from our Leftist masters now?

Yeah. Taxed at 90%.

5 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:03:31pm

Attention whores need attention and they don't care how they get it or who's giving the attention.

6 Gus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:07:38pm

Another in a long line of feeble and sophomoric claims from the orbicular and pseudo-academic, Robert Spencer. Feeling cornered and without and remorsefully driven ability to disown his alliances with European fascist organizations he instead reverts to unfounded gossip driven falsehoods. This is a clear indication of his ability to rationally discuss any subject matter and an indication of his failed academic career of which there never was. Thus he is left to harbor himself within the maniacal a fantastical world of the internet anti-Jihadist addlepates.

7 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:07:47pm

then ... according to mr spencer's logic, the following must also be true:

spencer lies and osama bin laden lies ...
therefore, spencer and osama are exactly the same type of person

see how easy it is to be clueless?

8 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:08:48pm

“Though I was heartened to see that the marshalls took some action in demanding that terroism promoters and anti-Semites should go home.”

The government stepped in?

9 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:09:49pm

And yet even if she had attended a rally with some dubious characters, what in the hell does that have to do with the CRU bit? If i met someone from Hezbollah who could speak cogently on the topic of AGW, i'd have a cogent conversation with them on the topic, and i'd disagree with about everything else they stood for. Sheesh.

10 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:10:14pm

re: #8 MandyManners

“Though I was heartened to see that the marshalls took some action in demanding that terroism promoters and anti-Semites should go home.”

The government stepped in?

Parade mashals, je pense.

11 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #8 MandyManners

“Though I was heartened to see that the marshalls took some action in demanding that terroism promoters and anti-Semites should go home.”

The government stepped in?

No, the rally organizers.

12 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:10:24pm

Out of curiosity, did Charles ever call people who thought the Iraq war was a bad idea the knids of names he is being called now? I know that on comment boards lots of believers used to do the same to me.

13 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:11:17pm

re: #10 Aceofwhat?

Parade mashals, je pense.

re: #11 Charles

No, the rally organizers.

That makes more sense.

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:11:20pm

re: #12 SteveMcG

Out of curiosity, did Charles ever call people who thought the Iraq war was a bad idea the knids of names he is being called now? I know that on comment boards lots of believers used to do the same to me.

There's nothing stopping you from searching LGF and finding out for yourself, is there?

15 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #12 SteveMcG

Out of curiosity, did Charles ever call people who thought the Iraq war was a bad idea the knids of names he is being called now? I know that on comment boards lots of believers used to do the same to me.

I only remember him calling crazy people crazy, but in the same way you call a spade a spade. The paper mache sorta gives it away...

16 Cato the Elder  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:13:09pm

Some people think Robert Spencer is a Catholic theologian.

Oh, my poor Church.

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:13:37pm

re: #12 SteveMcG

Took me a minute to figure out what "knids of names" was.

I kinda like it though.

18 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Took me a minute to figure out what "knids of names" was.

I kinda like it though.

It's like a silly English kniggit.

19 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:15:44pm

re: #6 Gus 802

Robert Spencer has CDS- Charles Derangement Syndrome. He's perfectly willing to make up lies about Charles in an attempt to discredit him. Lying in an attempt to discredit Charles shows what pathetic lengths Spencer has to go to in order to deflect the very real criticisms that he is associating with crypto-fascist european organizations. Lying about Charles doesn't change facts, unfortunately for Robert.

You'd think he'd have learned that by now.

20 Racer X  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:16:21pm

I guess Pam and Robert got a little upset at being called out for attending the "Islam is the devil" rally.

21 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:16:31pm
Repost from last thread:
Elizabeth May is a leftist douchebag and her Canadian Green Party are a bunch of the same. She and her party are not known as being pro-Israel. She had to throw one of her members under the bus for antisemitic comments during the last election.
However, I would not call her an antisemite or pro-Islamofascist.

She was commended by Jewish groups for dumping the anti-semitic candidate, and her attendance at the "peace" rally in question was more a case of typical leftist moral quivocation than anything more sinister.
With their wild and vicious hyperbole Geller and Spencer are, as usual, barking up the wrong tree.

22 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:17:09pm

re: #20 Racer X

I guess Pam and Robert got a little upset at being called out for attending the "Islam is the devil" rally.

Cockroaches don't like sunlight.

23 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:17:13pm

The way they run with a thin accusation like this makes me wonder how hard they've been digging for anything to bolster their assertion that Charles will abandon Israel. And why is it so important for them to make it look like Charles is abandoning Israel? I think it's because, like the Eurofascists they admire, their own claim of support for Israel is what they use as "proof" that they can't be fascists.

24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:17:41pm

re: #18 Aceofwhat?

I was thinking "Vernicious Knid" from Willy Wonka.

25 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:17:48pm

The second thought i had after reading this drivel was, "doesn't RS have some real jihad to watch?" Followed immediately by "oh, wait, if he can't distinguish between Charles and jihad...what the hell is he going to watch next? I didn't have my usual gin and tonic last night...is Robert going to think i've caved to CAIR?"

26 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:19:30pm

re: #20 Racer X

I guess Pam and Robert got a little upset at being called out for attending the "Islam is the devil" rally.

Ya think?

27 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:19:37pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

The way they run with a thin accusation like this makes me wonder how hard they've been digging for anything to bolster their assertion that Charles will abandon Israel. And why is it so important for them to make it look like Charles is abandoning Israel? I think it's because, like the Eurofascists they admire, their own claim of support for Israel is what they use as "proof" that they can't be fascists.

I do believe you're spot on.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:19:57pm

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

The second thought i had after reading this drivel was, "doesn't RS have some real jihad to watch?" Followed immediately by "oh, wait, if he can't distinguish between Charles and jihad...what the hell is he going to watch next? I didn't have my usual gin and tonic last night...is Robert going to think i've caved to CAIR?"

Better have that now, kid, and eat a hamsteak while you're at it.

//Straight out of the Spanish Renaissance--public pork eating, so no one WONDERS about you.

29 Gus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:20:16pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Robert Spencer has CDS- Charles Derangement Syndrome. He's perfectly willing to make up lies about Charles in an attempt to discredit him. Lying in an attempt to discredit Charles shows what pathetic lengths Spencer has to go to in order to deflect the very real criticisms that he is associating with crypto-fascist european organizations. Lying about Charles doesn't change facts, unfortunately for Robert.

You'd think he'd have learned that by now.

He seems to be rather self-destructive and has been grasping at straws for years now.

30 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:20:44pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

If Israel were to suddenly (magical thinking, I know) pull of the biggest intellectual and diplomatic feat in history, and reach detente with all the Islamic nations, who all then recognized Israel's right to exist and the rights of Jews in their own countries, and repudiated their old lies about Israel, Jews, etc-- if peace truly did come to the Middle East:

I think after that that many on the 'right' would turn on Israel.

*Again, not meaning anyone here, but rather the over-the-cliffers.

31 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:21:38pm

re: #30 Obdicut

If Israel were to suddenly (magical thinking, I know) pull of the biggest intellectual and diplomatic feat in history, and reach detente with all the Islamic nations, who all then recognized Israel's right to exist and the rights of Jews in their own countries, and repudiated their old lies about Israel, Jews, etc-- if peace truly did come to the Middle East:

I think after that that many on the 'right' would turn on Israel.

*Again, not meaning anyone here, but rather the over-the-cliffers.

Name one.

32 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:22:01pm

re: #31 MandyManners

Name one.

And, don't name Buchanan. We know he hates Jews.

33 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:22:26pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Better have that now, kid, and eat a hamsteak while you're at it.

//Straight out of the Spanish Renaissance--public pork eating, so no one WONDERS about you.

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

//

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:22:27pm

re: #31 MandyManners

Name one.

Pam and Spencer?

35 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

Pam and Spencer?

I don't consider them on the Right. They're off the meter.

36 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:24:43pm

re: #14 Charles

Maybe, I was looking on the front page for a search tool, when I clicked "Tools/Info", or "Resources", I wind up back at the front page. Since I'm a newcomer I won't try to judge anything from the tone of your reply, but if I were forced to guess, I would lean "yes". I was just curious about your background. It seems clear that you no longer attribute anything that doesn't have a source, but did that change at the same time you split with the radical right, or did you find that you were no longer able to source the kinds of things a gung ho right winger (if I understand your past correctly) might attribute to someone who disagreed.

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #30 Obdicut

I'd be pissed about all the pigs flying all over the place.

38 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:25:51pm

re: #35 MandyManners

I don't consider them on the Right. They're off the meter.

Well, that's what I'm saying, Mandy, with the 'over-the-cliffers' part.

I think most of the Christian Dominionists and other fundamentalists only support Israel because of their religious beliefs.

39 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:26:04pm

re: #35 MandyManners

I don't consider them on the Right. They're off the meter.

I don't either. but the point that Charles keeps making, painfully, is that they are becoming the Right unless we can stave them off. that's what scares me. i want my right back.

40 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:26:13pm

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd be pissed about all the pigs flying all over the place.

Heh. So would both the Muslims and the Jews.

41 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:26:14pm

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd be pissed about all the pigs flying all over the place.

Not me. I'd shoot em and have a BBQ!!

mmm,,, meat!!!

42 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:26:25pm

re: #36 SteveMcG

Maybe, I was looking on the front page for a search tool, when I clicked "Tools/Info", or "Resources", I wind up back at the front page. Since I'm a newcomer I won't try to judge anything from the tone of your reply, but if I were forced to guess, I would lean "yes". I was just curious about your background. It seems clear that you no longer attribute anything that doesn't have a source, but did that change at the same time you split with the radical right, or did you find that you were no longer able to source the kinds of things a gung ho right winger (if I understand your past correctly) might attribute to someone who disagreed.

I've never known Charles to attibute amything without a source.

43 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:26:56pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Well, that's what I'm saying, Mandy, with the 'over-the-cliffers' part.

I think most of the Christian Dominionists and other fundamentalists only support Israel because of their religious beliefs.

I'm a fundamentalist but I don't support Israel based on my religious belief.

44 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27:15pm

re: #39 Aceofwhat?

I don't either. but the point that Charles keeps making, painfully, is that they are becoming the Right unless we can stave them off. that's what scares me. i want my right back.

It never left you.

45 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27:33pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Well, that's what I'm saying, Mandy, with the 'over-the-cliffers' part.

I think most of the Christian Dominionists and other fundamentalists only support Israel because of their religious beliefs.

And that would change if Israel were accepted as a state by their Muslim neighbors how?

46 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:28:26pm

re: #42 MandyManners

That's why I was curious about the nature of his blog back then. (Holy cow, has it really been 6 years?). BTW, what is Calvin pissing on?

47 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:28:51pm

re: #46 SteveMcG

That's why I was curious about the nature of his blog back then. (Holy cow, has it really been 6 years?). BTW, what is Calvin pissing on?

It ain't a rope!

48 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:29:29pm

re: #44 MandyManners

It never left you.

It leaves me a little more every time that Buchanan, Spencer et al. are given the opportunity to provide a 'legitimate' opinion on behalf of the right. Don't worry, i'm not going left (i'm too big of a Robert Frost fan), but i'm quite worried that the right IS leaving me...inch by heartbreaking inch...

49 Cokezero  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:29:42pm

re: #32 MandyManners

Buchanan can't turn on Israel, because he has always been against Israel. He's never seen the need to hide his nazi roots, some on the right just choose to ignore them...

50 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #43 MandyManners

I'm a fundamentalist but I don't support Israel based on my religious belief.

That's reassuring to hear, Mandy. Thank you for saying that.

51 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:30:20pm

re: #42 MandyManners

I've never known Charles to attibute amything without a source.

Neither have I, and i started reading in 2000. Yes, it took a looong time to stumble upon an open door...

52 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:30:39pm

re: #49 Cokezero

Buchanan can't turn on Israel, because he has always been against Israel. He's never seen the need to hide his nazi roots, some on the right just choose to ignore them...

I've known his true colors for years.

53 Jadespring  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:31:03pm

The current Canadian Green Party isn't really all that left or at least not in any traditional sense. It started out that way but over the years it's morphed into this sometimes bizzare mix of left and right. You're just as likely to find a member who came from stereotypical hippie/commie ville as someone who's come from stereotypical big suit, pro-business conservative ville. Many original members have actually left the party because of it's rightward slide.

As for May herself, is you classify environmental concerns and human rights as just leftist then she's a leftie. As for other concerns not so much, she has a history of supporting more conservative viewpoints at times. For instance she got raked over the coals by the leftist community for her comments about abortion a while back.

Regardless of all that, saying she's a supporter of hezzbollah is just a joke. If she somehow was, it would have been brought out and dragged over the coals up here and her name would be mud. I personally think that politically she's an idiot much of the time but she is mainstream enough to have been in the last national debate and a supposed stance like that just wouldn't fly in that level of our national arena.

54 researchok  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:31:09pm

Elizabeth May also kicked out an anti Semitic candidate from the Green Party.

They may have crazy policies, they may have nut job followers but the Green Party isn't anti Semitic.

55 suchislife  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:31:22pm

re: #43 MandyManners

What exactly do you mean when you say you're a fundamentalist? Do you belong to a church that is commonly classified in that way? Which of your beliefs would you classify in that way?
Sorry to be so nosy, but since you brought it up, I would not want to misunderstand what you mean.

56 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:32:51pm

re: #55 suchislife

What exactly do you mean when you say you're a fundamentalist? Do you belong to a church that is commonly classified in that way? Which of your beliefs would you classify in that way?
Sorry to be so nosy, but since you brought it up, I would not want to misunderstand what you mean.

Lets just say if you ever need to sacrifice a chicken, Mandy's your gal!!
///

57 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:33:48pm

re: #30 Obdicut

If Israel were to suddenly (magical thinking, I know) pull of the biggest intellectual and diplomatic feat in history, and reach detente with all the Islamic nations, who all then recognized Israel's right to exist and the rights of Jews in their own countries, and repudiated their old lies about Israel, Jews, etc-- if peace truly did come to the Middle East:

I think after that that many on the 'right' would turn on Israel.

*Again, not meaning anyone here, but rather the over-the-cliffers.

There are many different motivations behind supporters of Israel. If the support was only because Israel is in opposition to its Muslim neighbors, then you could be correct. What percentage of Israel's supporters have that as their motivation? I have no idea.

58 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:35:12pm

re: #57 wrenchwench

There are many different motivations behind supporters of Israel. If the support was only because Israel is in opposition to its Muslim neighbors, then you could be correct. What percentage of Israel's supporters have that as their motivation? I have no idea.

I've never met one. Data is not the plural of anecdote, mind you, but my guess is that such folks are rare.

59 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:35:37pm

OT: I noted that this is a lie. The Palins have never released Trig's birth certificate or proved that he is Palin's kid.

Oh Sully, please just let it go. I usually like what you write, but this has gotten really creepy. Even if you're right... is it really that important?

60 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:36:39pm

re: #59 JasonA

OT: I noted that this is a lie. The Palins have never released Trig's birth certificate or proved that he is Palin's kid.

Oh Sully, please just let it go. I usually like what you write, but this has gotten really creepy. Even if you're right... is it really that important?

It's not only not important, it's a violation of privacy to a huge degree. I may dislike Palin with every fiber of my being, but poking around in other people's family affairs is bullshit. The less of that we bring to politics, the better off we'll be.

61 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:38:34pm

re: #59 JasonA

Actually if it were true, it would really be important. Both sides on that issue are just using it for rhetorical leverage. Everytime Palin says she was forthcoming, Sully can say she's lying, then Palin can blame the looney left for carrying this "non-issue". I doubt Sully's right, but her story is a bit strange.

62 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:38:36pm

Grindcore Baby

63 Cato the Elder  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:39:36pm

re: #31 MandyManners

Name one.

The Christian Zionists. It would remove their hope of Armageddon coming in the form of a final battle between Jesus and a converted Israel on the one hand, and the Antichrist and the Muslims on the other.

They would have to look to the Bloods and the Crips for their Final Battle.

64 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:39:47pm

re: #60 Obdicut

It's not only not important, it's a violation of privacy to a huge degree. I may dislike Palin with every fiber of my being, but poking around in other people's family affairs is bullshit. The less of that we bring to politics, the better off we'll be.

Updinged. Civility is so often the missing link between different yet defensible points of view.

65 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:40:07pm

re: #59 JasonA

Sullivan just has something wrong with him. His Palin obsession is so demented that I don't take anything he writes seriously. The dude has problems that can't be fixed.

66 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:40:19pm

re: #57 wrenchwench

There are many different motivations behind supporters of Israel. If the support was only because Israel is in opposition to its Muslim neighbors, then you could be correct. What percentage of Israel's supporters have that as their motivation? I have no idea.

For better or worse, a significant amount of support for Israel that comes from the religious right originates from a belief that an ascendant Israel fulfills Biblical prophecy that heralds the approach of the End Times and the Rapture.

Seriously.

So that kind of support isn't going to disappear. Although those holding such beliefs would certainly be tempted to announce that Israel's politicians had gone over to the side of Satan, they would still support Israel's existence as a nation.

67 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:41:06pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Wouldn't go that far, but he does overreach sometimes.

68 Guanxi88  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:42:05pm

re: #63 Cato the Elder

The Christian Zionists. It would remove their hope of Armageddon coming in the form of a final battle between Jesus and a converted Israel on the one hand, and the Antichrist and the Muslims on the other.

They would have to look to the Bloods and the Crips for their Final Battle.

Not at all. The facilitator of the agreement would be identified by them as the Anti-Christ, only reinforcing their apocalyptic narrative.

69 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:42:17pm

re: #66 SixDegrees

Also, my statement was slightly stupid, now that I think of it, because-- without being surrounded by hostile nations that want to destroy it, what support would Israel need, exactly?

Sorry, everyone, my thinking on that one was definitely confused.

70 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:43:08pm

re: #54 researchok

Elizabeth May also kicked out an anti Semitic candidate from the Green Party.

They may have crazy policies, they may have nut job followers but the Green Party isn't anti Semitic.

Good digging!

71 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:43:21pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Sullivan just has something wrong with him. His Palin obsession is so demented that I don't take anything he writes seriously. The dude has problems that can't be fixed.

CATO's last name is Sullivan !?!?!
///

Sorry CATO ,, that was just a big ole softball!!

72 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:43:29pm

re: #68 Guanxi88

Not at all. The facilitator of the agreement would be identified by them as the Anti-Christ, only reinforcing their apocalyptic narrative.

I find this Anti-Christ position fascinating, is it still open? Where do I send my application? Is dental included?

73 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:43:42pm

re: #66 SixDegrees

For better or worse, a significant amount of support for Israel that comes from the religious right originates from a belief that an ascendant Israel fulfills Biblical prophecy that heralds the approach of the End Times and the Rapture.

Seriously.

So that kind of support isn't going to disappear. Although those holding such beliefs would certainly be tempted to announce that Israel's politicians had gone over to the side of Satan, they would still support Israel's existence as a nation.

Eh. I've run into lots of different Christians over time (being one), and even the kookiest ones pretty much share my viewpoint...that God will always have a special place in his heart for the Jewish folks because he keeps promises over the long term. A Jew is basically a pre-christian in the eyes of many Christians...it's thus typical to have some familial sympathy for Israel and the Jewish faith/people.

Of course, the folks who call themselves Christians but who are actually living, breathing fascists (i try not to overuse the term) are a very different can of worms.

74 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:44:12pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Grindcore Baby

[Video]

That kid is gonna grow up to be an accordion player in a death metal band.

75 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:45:57pm

re: #61 SteveMcG

Even if it were true, it would be spun in a way to make her even more sympathetic to her base, just like Bristol's pregnancy.

76 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:46:13pm

re: #74 wrenchwench

That would be progressive polka speed metal.

77 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:46:49pm

re: #75 JasonA

Yup

78 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:47:16pm

re: #76 enoughalready

That would be progressive polka speed metal.

Xactly. Moshing in lederhosen encouraged.

79 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:47:33pm

re: #72 enoughalready

I find this Anti-Christ position fascinating, is it still open? Where do I send my application? Is dental included?

Are you open to having fangs? Can you hold your own in a debate with Pat Buchanan WITHOUT giving in to the urge to jump up and shout "Oh just get a clue and shut up already!" How do you look in red? Do you mind have your address, phone number, pin numbers, account numbers, and waist size all consist solely of the number 6?

80 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:47:51pm

re: #75 JasonA

Even if it were true, it would be spun in a way to make her even more sympathetic to her base, just like Bristol's pregnancy.

And more vile to her detractors, just like Bristols pregnancy

hmm,, funny that, huh!

81 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:48:55pm

re: #79 EmmmieG

boys sizes aren't measured in single digits. waist size would need to be 36 (three sixes!)

*at least i amuse myself*

82 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #80 sattv4u2

And more vile to her detractors, just like Bristols pregnancy

hmm,, funny that, huh!

yeah, i never understood how Bristols pregnancy made her more vile to her detractors. have you heard or read a straight answer on that line of thought?

83 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:50:41pm

re: #79 EmmmieG

Are you open to having fangs? Can you hold your own in a debate with Pat Buchanan WITHOUT giving in to the urge to jump up and shout "Oh just get a clue and shut up already!" How do you look in red? Do you mind have your address, phone number, pin numbers, account numbers, and waist size all consist solely of the number 6?

Wouldn't that make my voicemail very easy to hack into? Not that it would include much of interest apart from the insane cackling of various minions I assume. There were minions I was led to believe? And cakes? I am worried about the 66" waist and a lot of cakes would be required for that.

84 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:52:07pm

re: #82 Aceofwhat?

yeah, i never understood how Bristols pregnancy made her more vile to her detractors. have you heard or read a straight answer on that line of thought?


Speaking for myself, it was a troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter. Also, I can't help but think that if the shoe were on a Democrat's foot the right-wing wouldn't be so understanding.

85 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:52:12pm

re: #83 enoughalready

Wouldn't that make my voicemail very easy to hack into? Not that it would include much of interest apart from the insane cackling of various minions I assume. There were minions I was led to believe? And cakes? I am worried about the 66" waist and a lot of cakes would be required for that.

It will all have to be devil's food cake. I hope that's okay.

If one hacks into the antichrist's voicemail, a very nasty virus would download itself into every piece of electronics one owns. That's why it's so easy, see...

86 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:52:20pm

Without agreeing with Andrew Sullivan's weird obsession about Trig Palin, he is right about one thing: Palin lied about providing proof that Trig is her biological son. She didn't.

I don't think she has to provide that proof, but it doesn't change the fact that when she said she did, it was a lie.

87 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:52:29pm

re: #82 Aceofwhat?

yeah, i never understood how Bristols pregnancy made her more vile to her detractors. have you heard or read a straight answer on that line of thought?

I try to avoid conversations with people like that. They tend to ,, well,,, TALK!

88 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:53:28pm

re: #84 JasonA

Speaking for myself, it was a troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter. Also, I can't help but think that if the shoe were on a Democrat's foot the right-wing wouldn't be so understanding.

Yeah ,, because Thank God it's the 1st time in recorded history that a teenager didn't listen too and heed their parents wishes!

89 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:54:10pm

re: #86 Charles

Without agreeing with Andrew Sullivan's weird obsession about Trig Palin, he is right about one thing: Palin lied about providing proof that Trig is her biological son. She didn't.

I don't think she has to provide that proof, but it doesn't change the fact that when she said she did, lied.

I'm numb to it by now. She just goes with whatever sounds right at the time, I think.

90 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:54:20pm

re: #84 JasonA

Speaking for myself, it was a troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter. Also, I can't help but think that if the shoe were on a Democrat's foot the right-wing wouldn't be so understanding.

Wow. So her daughter is human and that causes a reaction? Pretty thin. And whether someone on the right would do the same is a non sequitur, imho.

91 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:55:02pm

re: #90 Aceofwhat?

get outta my head (#88)

92 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:55:48pm

re: #88 sattv4u2

Yeah ,, because Thank God it's the 1st time in recorded history that a teenager didn't listen too and heed their parents wishes!

That has no connection to what I was saying, but nice try.

93 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:56:16pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

get outta my head (#88)

i love seeing my brilliance reflected in the thoughts of others!

//because you're all fictionary characters in my little dream world...

94 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #92 JasonA

That has no connection to what I was saying, but nice try.

Okay then, explain to me why it's "troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter" and how what I posted has NO connection to it?

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #75 JasonA

Even if it were true, it would be spun in a way to make her even more sympathetic to her base, just like Bristol's pregnancy.

I think you're entirely right, but what is Sullivan's story at this point, anyway? I thought his schtick was that Trig was Bristol's child. If he's sticking to that, we are now asked to believe that Bristol gets pregnant, the pregnancy is somehow concealed, a sixteen or seventeen year old girl's child has Downs' Syndrome, which is not impossible, but less likely than for a forty-something woman, Palin pretends to birth Trig, then, within a few months, Bristol is pregnant AGAIN, and this time they can't hide the truth 'cause Sarah is running for VP.

Actually, this sounds like something MY family would try to pull off...

This doesn't make any damn sense. And even if every word of it was true, it's really the least of my concerns about Sarah.

96 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:58:36pm

re: #84 JasonA

Speaking for myself, it was a troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter. Also, I can't help but think that if the shoe were on a Democrat's foot the right-wing wouldn't be so understanding.

1. Teens do not necessarily hold the same views as their parents.
2. Teens do not think straight, particularly in sexual situations.
3. As to your second point - to have a problem with Bristol's pregnancy because you think someone on the right would not be understanding - well, shouldn't you be leading by example in the 'understanding' department?

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:59:20pm

re: #84 JasonA

Speaking for myself, it was a troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter. Also, I can't help but think that if the shoe were on a Democrat's foot the right-wing wouldn't be so understanding.

A Democrat running for President with a pregnant teenage daughter would have been shredded. It would have been absolutely vicious.

Obama was extremely classy about Bristol's pregnancy, BTW.

98 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:59:29pm

re: #96 reine.de.tout

ouch ,,, #3's gonna leave a nasty mark!

99 floppydusk  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:59:30pm

A quick recap:

You’re anti muslim, am not, are too, am not, are too.
You’re a CAIR tool, am not, are too, am not, are too.
You float dishonest claims, do not, do too, do not, do too.
You hoist by your own petard, do not, do too, do not, do too.
You associate with bigots and extremists, do not, do too, do not, do too.
You are lying, simply. So are you, am not……

100 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:00:20pm

re: #99 floppydusk

I have a feeling that may be UNlucky post #13!

101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:00:33pm

re: #96 reine.de.tout
Love ya, Toots! Wonderfully stated.

102 HappyBenghazi  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:00:38pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

A Democrat running for President with a pregnant teenage daughter would have been shredded. It would have been absolutely vicious.

Obama was extremely classy about Bristol's pregnancy, BTW.

As I recall he pointed out that he was the son of a teenage mother himself.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:00:43pm

re: #88 sattv4u2

Yeah ,, because Thank God it's the 1st time in recorded history that a teenager didn't listen too and heed their parents wishes!

I can't blame Palin for her kid getting pregnant. But I think people who support her have nothing but contempt for pregnant teens who aren't white, middle-class, and ostentatiously Christian.

104 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:01:43pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

A Democrat running for President with a pregnant teenage daughter would have been shredded. It would have been absolutely vicious.

Obama was extremely classy about Bristol's pregnancy, BTW.

Point #1, I don't think so (except for THE farthest nuts).
Point #2 , 100% correct

105 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:01:52pm

In my opinion RS is a political operative for a foreign religious lobby composed of Melkites, Eastern Orhodox European Catholics, Armenian and Serbian lobbies, SSPX types, and the Far Right in Europe. It's very obvious that his key issues all revolve around neo fascist fringe right politics, East Europe and Turkey, and have little to do with US interests. He's out to sway opinion in the US for religious and geopolitical reasons, and it's clear that he's worked for strange groups in Serbia in the past (and he probably still is). Now that Paul Weyrich is dead you would think that the religious right in the US would be a little less willing to follow the lead of foreign religious organizations and political groups, but I think the RR isn't willing to listen to the truth about Spencer because he's saying a few things they agree with.

106 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:03:28pm

re: #84 JasonA

All of that personal crap about another person i.e. the daughter is irrelevant to whether a person can govern well. The tabloids have an interest I do Not.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:03:31pm

re: #102 HappyWarrior

As I recall he pointed out that he was the son of a teenage mother himself.

He did, and congratulated Palin on becoming a grandmother. It was well done. Simple, low-key, and once he'd said his bit, there was no need to bring it up further.

Irritated as I was at the whole hoopla, I have to say that times have changed for the better. Time was, such a thing would have ended the candidacy, or the kid would have been hidden away.

108 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:03:42pm

re: #105 Thanos

In my opinion RS is a political operative for a foreign religious lobby composed of Melkites, Eastern Orhodox European Catholics, Armenian and Serbian lobbies, SSPX types, and the Far Right in Europe. It's very obvious that his key issues all revolve around neo fascist fringe right politics, East Europe and Turkey, and have little to do with US interests. He's out to sway opinion in the US for religious and geopolitical reasons, and it's clear that he's worked for strange groups in Serbia in the past (and he probably still is). Now that Paul Weyrich is dead you would think that the religious right in the US would be a little less willing to follow the lead of foreign religious organizations and political groups, but I think the RR isn't willing to listen to the truth about Spencer because he's saying a few things they agree with.

See: [Link: www.kejda.net...]

109 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:03:46pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

reaching a little there, aren't you?

110 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #108 Charles

link no worky

111 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:00pm

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

Kejda's entire site is down.

112 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:03pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

Okay then, explain to me why it's "troubling that a fierce advocate of abstinence had a pregnant teenage daughter" and how what I posted has NO connection to it?

When you think other people's children should not be taught about contraception and have a pregnant 17 year-old, maybe you should rethink the abstinence issue. In that particular family the policy failed to achieve the intended results. And yet she still thinks it should be taught to others. I'm not going to apologize for finding that level of logic "troubling."

113 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:14pm

re: #99 floppydusk

When has Charles called Spencer a "CAIR Tool"?

Your post makes no sense.

114 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:15pm

re: #109 Aceofwhat?

reaching a little there, aren't you?

She said "I think..." The reach is not far to one's own head.

115 Racer X  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:27pm

re: #102 HappyWarrior

As I recall he pointed out that he was the son of a teenage mother himself.

Yes and the right totally skewered him for it.

116 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:06:28pm

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

link no worky

Looks like Kejda's site is down.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:07:08pm

re: #109 Aceofwhat?

reaching a little there, aren't you?

I don't think so. It may be a broad brush, but I don't have to reach too far.

118 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:07:45pm

re: #116 Charles

I just emailed her about it. Hopefully it's nothing serious.

119 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:08:09pm

I'm a little new to the blogger scene, but do these folks bother fact-checking anything? I mean, people are going to check this stuff and blast them for it. I know they are just looking for cheap attacks, but it just never seems well-thought out.

120 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:08:13pm

re: #112 JasonA

When you think other people's children should not be taught about contraception and have a pregnant 17 year-old, maybe you should rethink the abstinence issue. In that particular family the policy failed to achieve the intended results. And yet she still thinks it should be taught to others. I'm not going to apologize for finding that level of logic "troubling."

I see. So any individual goal thats not reached should automatically be rejected and you should compromise and change your personal belief system

121 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:08:14pm

re: #96 reine.de.tout

1. Teens do not necessarily hold the same views as their parents.
2. Teens do not think straight, particularly in sexual situations.
3. As to your second point - to have a problem with Bristol's pregnancy because you think someone on the right would not be understanding - well, shouldn't you be leading by example in the 'understanding' department?

Actually, I never had a problem with the girl being pregnant. It doesn't bother me in the least. It's Sarah's stance on the issue, especially in light of that, that I don't like.

122 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:08:55pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

ouch ,,, #3's gonna leave a nasty mark!

Dammit - I am not a Palin fan - was, but was very disappointed in her as the campaign wore on and particularly after the campaign.

But this obsession with Palin's religious beliefs as relates to Bristols pregnancy - hell.

People have been getting pregnant, in and out of marriage, at various ages, since the beginning of time.

I am a conservative Catholic and my teen daughter got pregnant and had a baby, and this is even after I had told her if she became sexually active I would place her on birth control, she just needed to let me know. And of course she did NOT let me know.

It's a very very difficult situation; and to hear people dissing the teen who was pregnant, as well as the parents who I know found the situation to be very difficult as well - I just wanna go throw something.

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't blame Palin for her kid getting pregnant. But I think people who support her have nothing but contempt for pregnant teens who aren't white, middle-class, and ostentatiously Christian.

So . . . it's OK, then, to have contempt for white middle-class Christian teens who are pregnant?

123 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:09:19pm
124 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:10:02pm

re: #123 floppydusk

Go away, idiot.

125 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:10:16pm

Comment go boom.

126 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:10:35pm

re: #125 EmmmieG

Comment go boom.

Really fast, too.

127 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:10:35pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

I see. So any individual goal thats not reached should automatically be rejected and you should compromise and change your personal belief system

I'd hope it would at least get your head out of your ass long enough to take a look around and see how that belief system actually works out in the real world. Because teaching abstinence in Africa, in lieu of contraception, has done wonders for that continent. /

128 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #124 Charles

Go away, idiot.

I called it in my #100!!

What do I win !?!?!?!?

129 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:11:09pm

re: #119 Soap_Man

I'm a little new to the blogger scene, but do these folks bother fact-checking anything? I mean, people are going to check this stuff and blast them for it. I know they are just looking for cheap attacks, but it just never seems well-thought out.

They have a cult following of haters, to them it won't matter that the attack is factually and firmly refuted. They are writing to their crazed audience, not the general public.

130 mrbaracuda  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:12:17pm
When libelblogger and CAIR tool

You're moving up in the world, Charles. :-D
What was it last time? Some kind of animal if I am not mistaken.

131 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:12:38pm

I sent K a tweet that her site is down.

132 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:12:51pm

re: #128 sattv4u2

The title of Captain Obvious?

133 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:12:58pm

re: #129 Thanos

They have a cult following of haters, to them it won't matter that the attack is factually and firmly refuted. They are writing to their crazed audience, not the general public.

Bingo, Thanos. Spot on.

134 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:13:15pm

Conspiracy theories targeting the AMA, "Big Pharma," etc. are a big part of the stock in trade of the antivax/alternate healthcare industry. That much is obvious, but did y'all know that the antiscience healthcare mob is also a leading purveyor of politically oriented conspiracy theories, the same ones in many cases that AQ and Hezbollah use to incite hatred and violence against the United States, Israel, and moderate Muslims all over the world?
Take a look:
PreventDisease.com looks like (and is) a standard purveyor of herbal remedies and the like, with the usual garish ads and allegations of cover-up and malfeasance among the practitioners of scientific medicine.

It goes farther than that though. Their website includes this allegedly factual report from China:
CIA Operated Aerial Spraying Plane Carrying "Mutated" Virus Shot Down in China
This looks like an Onion parody of a batshit conspiracy theory, complete with secret bases and treacherous Jews, but it is the real thing, intended in all seriousness. The site owners apparently consider it helpful to sales and marketing,

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:13:18pm

re: #128 sattv4u2

Nothing. S/He/it made it to #14.

136 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:14:07pm

re: #112 JasonA

When you think other people's children should not be taught about contraception and have a pregnant 17 year-old, maybe you should rethink the abstinence issue. In that particular family the policy failed to achieve the intended results. And yet she still thinks it should be taught to others. I'm not going to apologize for finding that level of logic "troubling."

Uh-huh. Because no parents who believe in teaching birth control but not abstinence have ever had a preggo teenager.

Surely you can do better.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:14:22pm

re: #122 reine.de.tout

re: #98 sattv4u2


So . . . it's OK, then, to have contempt for white middle-class Christian teens who are pregnant?

No. I just have a lot of contempt, personally, for people who blame teen pregnancies on bad parenting and lack of morals, until it's the kid of someone they want to see in a positive light.

I have no problem with people being supportive of Bristol having her child. That's nice. I'm just still ticked off at Bill O'Reilly, and I am pretty damn certain that many of the people who were lecturing me during the election about Sarah's values would not have extended the same courtesy to the average pregnant teen keeping her baby.

138 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:14:56pm

re: #127 JasonA

I'd hope it would at least get your head out of your ass long enough to take a look around and see how that belief system actually works out in the real world. Because teaching abstinence in Africa, in lieu of contraception, has done wonders for that continent. /

Nice,,, I can see why you would go there, becuase I certainly did !! NOT

Good thing you did, or else you would have had to actually answer #120

So ,,, the problem in Africa is because we haven't handed out enough condomes?

139 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:15:45pm

re: #132 enoughalready

re: #135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nothing. S/He/it made it to #14.

damn!

140 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:16:06pm

re: #129 Thanos

Oh yeah, I'm sure the existing followers eat it up. But wouldn't a blogger want to expand his or her audience? The best way to do that is to be considered a reliable commentator.

Not saying I want this Robert Spencer fellow to have a larger audience, I just wonder what goes on his head? If he is going to attack Charles, wouldn't he think: "People are going to check to see his response. I should make sure everything is factually correct and not give the man any easy targets."

But then, I have never really read Robert Spencer. So maybe I shouldn't assume he thinks things through rationally.

141 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:16:08pm

re: #129 Thanos

They have a cult following of haters, to them it won't matter that the attack is factually and firmly refuted. They are writing to their crazed audience, not the general public.

They sure are stinking up the twitosphere.

142 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:16:34pm

re: #127 JasonA

I'd hope it would at least get your head out of your ass long enough to take a look around and see how that belief system actually works out in the real world. Because teaching abstinence in Africa, in lieu of contraception, has done wonders for that continent. /

Who is doing anything in lieu of contraception in Africa? Even the Christian missions i've read of are doing both.

143 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:16:36pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

No. I just have a lot of contempt, personally, for people who blame teen pregnancies on bad parenting and lack of morals, until it's the kid of someone they want to see in a positive light.

I have no problem with people being supportive of Bristol having her child. That's nice. I'm just still ticked off at Bill O'Reilly, and I am pretty damn certain that many of the people who were lecturing me during the election about Sarah's values would not have extended the same courtesy to the average pregnant teen keeping her baby.


Well, that I can agree with.
Teen pregnancies occur because teens can be unthinking idiots in certain situations.

144 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:17:04pm

re: #133 austin_blue

Bingo, Thanos. Spot on.

That audience is steadily shrinking too. In the old days a spat post like this would have generated 60 to 100 comments at Spencer's site within an hour... right now there are only ten.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:17:09pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

Uh-huh. Because no parents who believe in teaching birth control but not abstinence have ever had a preggo teenager.

Surely you can do better.

Have to agree. I think abstinence only is a lousy idea, but the idea can't rise or fall on one teenage girl being careless with condoms. The kids were apparently using birth control, they just weren't using it regularly. That's teenagerishness. Nothing you can do about it, except preach and hope they listen at the right moment.

146 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:17:29pm

re: #127 JasonA

Can you provide actual references for that claim? I.e. can you prove that teaching abstinence has had a larger effect on HIV transmission rates in sub-Saharan Africa than condoms?

147 generalsparky  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:18:07pm

re: #142 Aceofwhat?

Who is doing anything in lieu of contraception in Africa? Even the Christian missions i've read of are doing both.

That is a dig at the Catholic Church which does not believe in the use of ABC/condoms.

148 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:18:11pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

No. I just have a lot of contempt, personally, for people who blame teen pregnancies on bad parenting and lack of morals, until it's the kid of someone they want to see in a positive light.

I have no problem with people being supportive of Bristol having her child. That's nice. I'm just still ticked off at Bill O'Reilly, and I am pretty damn certain that many of the people who were lecturing me during the election about Sarah's values would not have extended the same courtesy to the average pregnant teen keeping her baby.

I read your comments that way as well. The folks on the left I know weren't commenting on teen pregnancy being bad. They were commenting on the right criticizing teen pregnancy (whatever color) and then suddenly forgetting all that judgment and condemnation when it comes to 'one of their own". Just one perspective.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:18:37pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

Oh yeah, I'm sure the existing followers eat it up. But wouldn't a blogger want to expand his or her audience? The best way to do that is to be considered a reliable commentator.

Not saying I want this Robert Spencer fellow to have a larger audience, I just wonder what goes on his head? If he is going to attack Charles, wouldn't he think: "People are going to check to see his response. I should make sure everything is factually correct and not give the man any easy targets."

But then, I have never really read Robert Spencer. So maybe I shouldn't assume he thinks things through rationally.

You really shouldn't. Spencer, like Palin, has an audience who like his message and what he represents. They don't fact-check him much.

150 Idle Drifter  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:18:48pm

re: #134 Shiplord Kirel

Conspiracy theories targeting the AMA, "Big Pharma," etc. are a big part of the stock in trade of the antivax/alternate healthcare industry. That much is obvious, but did y'all know that the antiscience healthcare mob is also a leading purveyor of politically oriented conspiracy theories, the same ones in many cases that AQ and Hezbollah use to incite hatred and violence against the United States, Israel, and moderate Muslims all over the world?
Take a look:
PreventDisease.com looks like (and is) a standard purveyor of herbal remedies and the like, with the usual garish ads and allegations of cover-up and malfeasance among the practitioners of scientific medicine.

It goes farther than that though. Their website includes this allegedly factual report from China:
CIA Operated Aerial Spraying Plane Carrying "Mutated" Virus Shot Down in China
This looks like an Onion parody of a batshit conspiracy theory, complete with secret bases and treacherous Jews, but it is the real thing, intended in all seriousness. The site owners apparently consider it helpful to sales and marketing,

That is a whole new level of bat shit craziness.

151 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:18:59pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

But then, I have never really read Robert Spencer. So maybe I shouldn't assume he thinks things through rationally.

Bingo.

152 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:19:08pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Yep, and teenagerishness flouts all kinds of well-meaning advice. I've known tons of great parents with a kid that just behaved strangely for no other reason than they ignored their parents advice and went off the wall. it happens to the best.

153 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:19:10pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

Oh yeah, I'm sure the existing followers eat it up. But wouldn't a blogger want to expand his or her audience? The best way to do that is to be considered a reliable commentator.

Not saying I want this Robert Spencer fellow to have a larger audience, I just wonder what goes on his head? If he is going to attack Charles, wouldn't he think: "People are going to check to see his response. I should make sure everything is factually correct and not give the man any easy targets."

But then, I have never really read Robert Spencer. So maybe I shouldn't assume he thinks things through rationally.

One of the reasons why Pammy and Bobby are so upset with Charles and need to discredit him is because Charles has hurt their audience.

154 ghazidor  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:19:18pm

Wait just a second, we are backing Hezbollah now?

Does that mean that I have to send my Zionist checks back? I've been patiently waiting for them to fix whatever snafu has kept me from getting mine so far and now this happens!

Damn I just knew it was too good to be true!

/

155 Gus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

No. I just have a lot of contempt, personally, for people who blame teen pregnancies on bad parenting and lack of morals, until it's the kid of someone they want to see in a positive light.

I have no problem with people being supportive of Bristol having her child. That's nice. I'm just still ticked off at Bill O'Reilly, and I am pretty damn certain that many of the people who were lecturing me during the election about Sarah's values would not have extended the same courtesy to the average pregnant teen keeping her baby.

Something like this?

Warning: Brain bleach required after viewing.

156 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:19:53pm

re: #146 enoughalready

Can you provide actual references for that claim? I.e. can you prove that teaching abstinence has had a larger effect on HIV transmission rates in sub-Saharan Africa than condoms?

POPCORN ,,, GET YER POPCORN HERE !!

157 researchok  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:20:16pm

re: #134 Shiplord Kirel

Best quote from that second link:

Important to also note in these reports is that the US spray plane shot down in China was reported to be targeting a secret Israeli base located in the Central Asian Nation of Kyrgyzstan, which many Ashkenazi Jews (Ashkenazi Jews make up approximately 80% of Jews Worldwide) consider their ‘spiritual homeland’ after their long exile their under Soviet Communist rule, and where Russian Intelligence Analysts report the Israelis are nearing the end of their decades long deciphering of the ancient Epic of Manas manuscript (with close to half a million lines the Epic of Manas is twenty times longer than Homer’s Odyssey and Iliad combined) that they believe contains our World’s oldest warning to our present age and which (coincidentally?) agrees with the ancient Mayan peoples that the year of 2012 will see the ending of our present age.

Jews, Mayans and secret manuscripts.

I'd like to have smoked half the shit that writer was on.

158 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:20:45pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

Oh yeah, I'm sure the existing followers eat it up. But wouldn't a blogger want to expand his or her audience? The best way to do that is to be considered a reliable commentator.

Not saying I want this Robert Spencer fellow to have a larger audience, I just wonder what goes on his head? If he is going to attack Charles, wouldn't he think: "People are going to check to see his response. I should make sure everything is factually correct and not give the man any easy targets."

But then, I have never really read Robert Spencer. So maybe I shouldn't assume he thinks things through rationally.

Your comment points out something that's now been lost in the blogosphere-- a few years back there was a assumption within the blogsphere that in many ways they were better than MSM simply because they fact check and correct when wrong. That's gone out the window in the past few partisan years now that they Religious Right is driving the core of the right wing punditsphere. Now it's ok not to fact check or correct, and it's ok to lie.
It's really disheartening and disgusting.

159 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:20:46pm

re: #153 Sharmuta

Ahhh, I see.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:20:47pm

re: #143 reine.de.tout

Well, that I can agree with.
Teen pregnancies occur because teens can be unthinking idiots in certain situations.

They're extremely sexually charged, and their rational brains aren't totally formed yet. This is hard on a society that expects people to marry after finishing lengthy formal education.

Quote from last year: "The juniors are doing NOTHING in class. It's spring. All they want to do is sleep and mate, and if someone would bring them a pizza, that would be cool too."

161 enoughalready  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:21:31pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

POPCORN ,,, GET YER POPCORN HERE !!

hahaha... ok ok

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:22:24pm

re: #154 ausador

Wait just a second, we are backing Hezbollah now?

Does that mean that I have to send my Zionist checks back? I've been patiently waiting for them to fix whatever snafu has kept me from getting mine so far and now this happens!

Damn I just knew it was too good to be true!

/

Soon you'll start getting Iranian checks. Just be patient...

163 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:22:28pm

Here is Kejda's back-up site for info on Spencer:

[Link: kejda.wordpress.com...]

She and her husband are contacting her hosting company now.

164 Idle Drifter  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:22:39pm

re: #134 Shiplord Kirel

Herbal remedies for the symptoms of H1N1? Well they would be held liable if they claimed it was a cure.

165 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:22:49pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

They're extremely sexually charged, and their rational brains aren't totally formed yet. This is hard on a society that expects people to marry after finishing lengthy formal education.

Quote from last year: "The juniors are doing NOTHING in class. It's spring. All they want to do is sleep and mate, and if someone would bring them a pizza, that would be cool too."

Exactly!
LOL.

Our teens are graduating from HS and starting the next level of education at an age when people used to be getting married.

166 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:23:05pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Soon you'll start getting Iranian checks. Just be patient...

They glow in the dark

URANIUM ,,, WHAT URANIUM !?!?!

167 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:24:23pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

They're extremely sexually charged, and their rational brains aren't totally formed yet. This is hard on a society that expects people to marry after finishing lengthy formal education.

Quote from last year: "The juniors are doing NOTHING in class. It's spring. All they want to do is sleep and mate, and if someone would bring them a pizza, that would be cool too."

/ does that mean spring break is a good idea or a bad idea?

168 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:24:45pm

re: #144 Thanos

That audience is steadily shrinking too. In the old days a spat post like this would have generated 60 to 100 comments at Spencer's site within an hour... right now there are only ten.

And that is a good thing. Perhaps people are waking up to the fact this kind of divisive rhetoric is not helpful, to say the least.

169 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:24:51pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

I know why you want to get married! You want to hump your brains out! Ba BOOM! Ba BOOM! Ba BOOM! Ba BOOM!

Can YOU pull that quote? :-)

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:24:52pm

re: #155 Gus 802

Something like this?

Warning: Brain bleach required after viewing.

Gghhhah. Nice folks Ms. Malkin hangs out with.
/

171 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:25:12pm

re: #167 brookly red

/ does that mean spring break is a good idea or a bad idea?

depends on if I can book a room at the beach that week or not!
/

172 Gus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:25:28pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

Gghhhah. Nice folks Ms. Malkin hangs out with.
/

I could only read one. What a sewer.

173 Guanxi88  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:25:36pm

re: #169 Locker

Can YOU pull that quote? :-)

Johnny Dangerously. Ma Kelly chiding Tommy Kelly after learning he wanted to get married and drop out of law school.

174 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:25:39pm
175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:26:34pm

re: #172 Gus 802

I could only read one. What a sewer.


See why I don't go to other sites?

176 Idle Drifter  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:26:42pm

re: #157 researchok

Best quote from that second link:


Jews, Mayans and secret manuscripts.

I'd like to have smoked half the shit that writer was on.

I don't you'd make it. Your brain would turn into a mushroom.

177 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:27:01pm

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See why I don't go to other sites?

I'm still pissed you come to THIS one!

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:27:22pm

re: #157 researchok

Best quote from that second link:


Jews, Mayans and secret manuscripts.

I'd like to have smoked half the shit that writer was on.

Ashkenazim consider Kyrzgystan our spiritual homeland? I can't even SPELL it.

179 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:27:28pm

re: #176 Idle Drifter

You would leave out words too.

180 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:28:29pm

re: #173 Guanxi88

Johnny Dangerously. Ma Kelly chiding Tommy Kelly after learning he wanted to get married and drop out of law school.

You sir are the winner of the Gemini Croquettes Contest. A trip for two to FLOSTON PARADISE!

181 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:28:34pm

Jesus, can someone point out to me when (with the exception of Charles, LGF Lizards and a few others) rationality went the way of the dodo?

182 Guanxi88  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:28:40pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

Ashkenazim consider Kyrzgystan our spiritual homeland? I can't even SPELL it.

Next year in Bishkek!

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:28:40pm

re: #167 brookly red

/ does that mean spring break is a good idea or a bad idea?

Well, they have more time to sleep and eat pizza.

/

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:29:01pm

re: #169 Locker

Can YOU pull that quote? :-)

No...???

185 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:30:02pm

re: #181 acwgusa

Some people never get up to rationality. In some ways rationality has not gone away; instead it has not been achieved.

186 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:30:21pm

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

Hehe. Guanxi88 got it on #173.

187 Idle Drifter  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:30:31pm

re: #176 Idle Drifter

I don't think you'd make it. PIMF

188 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:30:45pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, they have more time to sleep and eat pizza.

/

/guess you should rest up & carb-load before a marathon...

189 Guanxi88  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:31:18pm

re: #180 Locker

You sir are the winner of the Gemini Croquettes Contest. A trip for two to FLOSTON PARADISE!

"Dominus vobiscum, nabisco..." Opening lines of the benediction uttered by the phoney priest as Johnny Kelly, a/k/a Johnny Dangerously, assembles a Tommy gun as he walks toward the electric chair.

A great and very under-rated film.

190 Idle Drifter  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:31:19pm

re: #179 Ojoe

lol!

191 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:31:59pm

re: #190 Idle Drifter

LGF the humor site.

BBL

192 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:32:47pm

re: #146 enoughalready

Can you provide actual references for that claim? I.e. can you prove that teaching abstinence has had a larger effect on HIV transmission rates in sub-Saharan Africa than condoms?

What are you talking about? I never said abstinence had a larger effect on transmission rates.

193 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:33:39pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

"Dominus vobiscum, nabisco..." Opening lines of the benediction uttered by the phoney priest as Johnny Kelly, a/k/a Johnny Dangerously, assembles a Tommy gun as he walks toward the electric chair.

A great and very under-rated film.

I agree, great movie.

You've got verve. You've got style. You've got those. I've always loved "those" on a woman.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:34:53pm

re: #188 brookly red

/guess you should rest up & carb-load before a marathon...

We have a football player at the school right now, who is going off the rails. His coach reports that the kid says he's skipping practice to study, but shows up after these study sessions with hickeys.

195 recusancy  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:35:16pm

re: #146 enoughalready

Can you provide actual references for that claim? I.e. can you prove that teaching abstinence has had a larger effect on HIV transmission rates in sub-Saharan Africa than condoms?

I think he was being sarcastic... Hence the "/" sarc tag.

196 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:36:24pm

re: #195 recusancy

I think he was being sarcastic... Hence the "/" sarc tag.

The / tag was for the "has done wonders" portion of the post

197 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:37:08pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

We have a football player at the school right now, who is going off the rails. His coach reports that the kid says he's skipping practice to study, but shows up after these study sessions with hickeys.

So ,,, he's studying CHEERLEADERS!!

198 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:37:16pm

Alabama 10, Florida 0.

Oops. TD under review...

Yup, 10- zip.

199 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:37:53pm

re: #198 austin_blue

Alabama 10, Florida 0.

Oops. TD under review...

Yup, 10- zip.

Nope, they missed the extra point. 9- zip.

200 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:38:01pm

re: #198 austin_blue

Alabama 10, Florida 0.

Oops. TD under review...

Yup, 10- zip.

Nope ,, 9 zip ,, Extra point hit the upright and out

201 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:38:21pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

We have a football player at the school right now, who is going off the rails. His coach reports that the kid says he's skipping practice to study, but shows up after these study sessions with hickeys.

Well that could be considered studying... unless the taxpayers are shelling out for it, then it's considered fact finding ;)

202 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:39:16pm

re: #195 recusancy

re: #196 sattv4u2

The / tag was for the "has done wonders" portion of the post

further , he was being contemptuous of abstinence

203 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:39:48pm

re: #201 brookly red

Well that could be considered studying... unless the taxpayers are shelling out for it, then it's considered fact finding ;)

practicing for his future political life as a philanderer

204 webevintage  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:40:01pm

You know, until I began reading this blog I had never heard of Robert Spenser.
He really seems like a dick.
Now that I have heard about him I count myself lucky to have gone so long without ever knowing that he and Pam Geller (is that her name?) ever existed.
I would give someone one of my cats to be one of those lucky few again.

205 darthstar  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:40:01pm

Sounds like Spencer is challenging you to a pissing contest. re: #127 JasonA

I'd hope it would at least get your head out of your ass long enough to take a look around and see how that belief system actually works out in the real world. Because teaching abstinence in Africa, in lieu of contraception, has done wonders for that continent. /

Abstinence education works great, until a young guy sees a young girl...then impulse takes over. In other words, telling people not to screw only works until after the lecture...after all that talk about how dangerous sex is, who's NOT going to want to give it a try?

206 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:41:07pm

re: #204 webevintage

You know, until I began reading this blog I had never heard of Robert Spenser.
He really seems like a dick.
Now that I have heard about him I count myself lucky to have gone so long without ever knowing that he and Pam Geller (is that her name?) ever existed.
I would give someone one of my cats to be one of those lucky few again.

I don't wanna know them , AND I don't want one of your cats!

207 recusancy  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:41:18pm

re: #202 sattv4u2

re: #196 sattv4u2

further , he was being contemptuous of abstinence

As he should be. It pales in comparison to actual sex education about safe sex practices.

208 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:42:20pm

re: #205 darthstar

Hey darthstar. You are new man so don't mind me passing along a tip. when you see / at the end of a post that's shorthand for a /sarc or /sarcastic tag.

Just in case you didn't know. Peace man and welcome.

209 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:42:46pm

re: #207 recusancy

As he should be. It pales in comparison to actual sex education about safe sex practices.

yet when adhered too it works 100% of the time!

I'm not an advocate of abstinence only, but I would include it as part of the whole

210 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:42:55pm

re: #205 darthstar

Sounds like Spencer is challenging you to a pissing contest.

Abstinence education works great, until a young guy sees a young girl...then impulse takes over. In other words, telling people not to screw only works until after the lecture...after all that talk about how dangerous sex is, who's NOT going to want to give it a try?

Abstinence only was an option Texas for school districts who desired to teach it. Those that adopted the program had teen rates actually *increase*. Pretty much an epic fail.

211 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:43:00pm

re: #113 Obdicut

When has Charles called Spencer a "CAIR Tool"?

Your post makes no sense.

actually that's not what he's saying, I think.

what he says is that RS accuses Charles of these things, then Charles posts a refutation, then a couple of weeks later RS accuses him of these things again.

he has a point, to a degree. OTOH, blame for that is on RS. charles refutes calmly and in a classy way, without making baseless accusations in RS' direction. he has to, or the nonsense would spread even further without being refuted. also LGF is (or feels to me to be) largely about refuting baseless claims from radicals both left and right. I think we can put RS in the radical right category alright.

OTOH, if I'd have had the required 50 posts already I'd've downdinged floppydusk for the obnoxious way he puts his comment as well.

re: #122 reine.de.tout

well as pointed out teens don't always behave rationally, especially in sexually-charged situations. rather impulsively at times, even.
as a 20year-old with parents more conservatively catholic than the vatican itself I know I have not told my parents anything about those things even when I still lived with them.
OTOH, telling you would have been a much greater step than simply using a condom, so it's probably not because she didn't trust you, I'd think?
I do have a good deal of respect for the way you've told her you'd at least support her way of life and make it as safe as possible for her, it's the right thing to do and I applaud the courage to do that in spite of your own religious feelings!

about contempt for pregnant teens: of course it's never OK. I don't think SanFranciscoZionist ever said that? it's a good indication of the hypocrisy in certain religious-right groups.
(and now before I start to sound like a religion-hater: I'm not. I'm moderately christian, and I support everyone's right to have their own beliefs. I do think that right ends where it infringes on someone elses right to liberty - even if it were their family).

I'll shut up now, I'm too tired to write a decent coherent long piece and my english isn't what it should be either, I guess.

212 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #202 sattv4u2

re: #196 sattv4u2

further , he was being contemptuous of abstinence

Listen, I have no problem whatsoever with telling children all of the good reasons they should be avoiding sex. I have a problem when contraception education is tossed out the window.

213 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:44:14pm

re: #212 JasonA

Listen, I have no problem whatsoever with telling children all of the good reasons they should be avoiding sex. I have a problem when contraception education is tossed out the window.

see #209

214 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:45:02pm

when are pamella geller and mccain going to finally get a room and make some horrible hybrid evil children together

216 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:45:34pm

re: #214 SpaceJesus

You should probably be specific that you mean RS McCain, not the Senator.

217 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:45:46pm

re: #211 ThomasLite

o-kaaay. that turned out to be a way to late reply. sorry everyone.

also charles, I see floppydusk flounced in the meantime, and I'm getting a bit nervous so to say. just wanted to add I meant no offence and did not condone what he said there, just to make sure...

218 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:46:41pm

re: #205 darthstar

Sounds like Spencer is challenging you to a pissing contest.

Abstinence education works great, until a young guy sees a young girl...then impulse takes over. In other words, telling people not to screw only works until after the lecture...after all that talk about how dangerous sex is, who's NOT going to want to give it a try?

Eh. Telling them how makes them want to give it a try, too. Screwed either way!

*mirth*

219 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:46:50pm

re: #211 ThomasLite

Of course she didn't trust me, she thought I would make her break up with the boyfriend - which would have been silly, they would have sneaked around and seen each other anyhow I know that.

I've always been very open with my kid and we have discussed everything under the sun. Whether she decides to confide in me or not is another matter entirely.

221 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:47:08pm

re: #217 ThomasLite

o-kaaay. that turned out to be a way to late reply. sorry everyone.

also charles, I see floppydusk flounced in the meantime, and I'm getting a bit nervous so to say. just wanted to add I meant no offence and did not condone what he said there, just to make sure...

No worries. We got it, my man. Post away!

222 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:47:57pm

re: #217 ThomasLite

o-kaaay. that turned out to be a way to late reply. sorry everyone.

also charles, I see floppydusk flounced in the meantime, and I'm getting a bit nervous so to say. just wanted to add I meant no offence and did not condone what he said there, just to make sure...

Don't worry, I think you're all good. If anything, you were 'guilty' of being too generous, which is hardly a terrible thing.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:48:38pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

So ,,, he's studying CHEERLEADERS!!

Last year he was dating one of the junior trainers for the team, so he had to show up for practice or she'd kick his ass. I wish they hadn't broken up. I even more wish that they hadn't broken up one lunchtime before my English class.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:49:22pm

re: #201 brookly red

Well that could be considered studying... unless the taxpayers are shelling out for it, then it's considered fact finding ;)

We're a private school, so unless there's something I don't know about this kid, I believe it's unfunded by any government agency.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:50:39pm

re: #203 sattv4u2

practicing for his future political life as a philanderer

Hey. This is a nice boy. He's a football player and volunteers in the community, and works hard in school. He's just horny in the way only seventeen-year-old boys can ever really be.

226 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:51:36pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey. This is a nice boy. He's a football player and volunteers in the community, and works hard in school. He's just horny in the way only seventeen-year-old boys can ever really be.

(((ssshhh,, I got news for you ,,as a 56 year old "boy', it doesn't change!!!)))

227 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:51:41pm

re: #218 Aceofwhat?

Eh. Telling them how makes them want to give it a try, too. Screwed either way!

*mirth*

Oh, I don't know. By the time I was in the eighth grade, like, 1970, I had the engineering down pat. The question isn't telling them the hows, it's making them understand the dangers of the doing. That certainly should include a frank discussion of birth control, both pros and cons. And don't tell me condoms increase sexual activity.

That's like saying umbrellas cause rain.

228 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:52:43pm

re: #227 austin_blue

Oh, I don't know. By the time I was in the eighth grade, like, 1970, I had the engineering down pat. The question isn't telling them the hows, it's making them understand the dangers of the doing. That certainly should include a frank discussion of birth control, both pros and cons. And don't tell me condoms increase sexual activity.

That's like saying umbrellas cause rain.

Well ,,, you DO feel safer (from the rain) WITH an umbrella than without!

229 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:53:38pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

Well ,,, you DO feel safer (from the rain) WITH an umbrella than without!

I'm allergic to latex so I have to use only natural umbrellas.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:53:44pm

re: #209 sattv4u2

yet when adhered too it works 100% of the time!

I'm not an advocate of abstinence only, but I would include it as part of the whole

I think it's important for kids to know that abstinence is an option for them, and a good one. It's also important for them to know that you can be abstinent after being sexually active. I once had a conversation with a student where I pointed out that just because you had been having sex with your old boyfriend didn't mean you needed to have sex with your new boyfriend. It was sort of a revelation for her.

I also believe in telling kids that masturbation is not bad for you, which is where I and some of the abstinence crowd may part ways.

231 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:54:14pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

Well ,,, you DO feel safer (from the rain) WITH an umbrella than without!

True, which is why you should always have an umbrella in your wallet.

;-)

232 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:54:15pm

re: #209 sattv4u2

yet when adhered too it works 100% of the time!

I'm not an advocate of abstinence only, but I would include it as part of the whole

We humans work the way way we work and not how we want ourselves to work. Kids aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon, and last I checked they were having it at pretty young ages. The truth is we're designed to have sex then. If we were still living in huts this wouldn't be an issue at all. Now we have built up this societal structure that strongly recommends we put it off until later. That we put off something our bodies are telling us to do.

By all means, teach the youngins that sex is something that should wait until they're older. All I ask is that they're taught about the safety nets we have available to us for those of them who fail.

233 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:54:15pm

re: #227 austin_blue

Oh, I don't know. By the time I was in the eighth grade, like, 1970, I had the engineering down pat. The question isn't telling them the hows, it's making them understand the dangers of the doing. That certainly should include a frank discussion of birth control, both pros and cons. And don't tell me condoms increase sexual activity.

That's like saying umbrellas cause rain.

/they do! & trailer parks cause tornadoes too!

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:55:48pm

re: #214 SpaceJesus

when are pamella geller and mccain going to finally get a room and make some horrible hybrid evil children together

Please call him R.S. McCain or something. I had a terrible picture of Pam Geller and John McCain together for a split second. Cindy doesn't deserve that. Neither does John, for that matter.

235 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:55:54pm

re: #229 Locker

I'm allergic to latex so I have to use only natural umbrellas.

pls don't tell the story about how you found out ...

236 Locker  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:58:09pm

re: #235 brookly red

pls don't tell the story about how you found out ...

Yea it's a pretty crazy story involving a rubber kitchen glove and a few other friends...

237 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:58:18pm

re: #232 JasonA

We humans work the way way we work and not how we want ourselves to work
The truth is we're designed to have sex then

Really? So when you see a woman on the street that sexually attracts you you HAVE to mount her (to use a phrase from Two And A Half Men). That would be your "natural" instinct, but you don't want to work that way!

Kids aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon

Yet this all started because you excoriated Pailn because her daughter did!

238 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:58:46pm

re: #219 reine.de.tout

Of course she didn't trust me, she thought I would make her break up with the boyfriend - which would have been silly, they would have sneaked around and seen each other anyhow I know that.

I've always been very open with my kid and we have discussed everything under the sun. Whether she decides to confide in me or not is another matter entirely.

yup, you're probably right.
it also helps to talk about it since then at least you'd get part of the story instead of nothing at all.
what I don't understand about parents who actually make kids break up after these kinds of incidents (kinds should be plural there, right?) is that instead of at least waiting it out to see if they'll at least try to stay loyal to each other, they make sure the relationship breaks. IMO they make the problem worse and create the 'evil' many conservative christians then point out in saying 'see? single mom!'.
I've seen it happen around here a few times. still boggles my mind.
but I really like your philosophy.

@obdicut, austin_blue,
thanks!

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Please call him R.S. McCain or something. I had a terrible picture of Pam Geller and John McCain together for a split second. Cindy doesn't deserve that. Neither does John, for that matter.

aww man, why did you have to share that image?
excuse me while I pour some bleach over my inner eye, or something of the sort.

239 brookly red  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:59:08pm

re: #226 sattv4u2

(((ssshhh,, I got news for you ,,as a 56 year old "boy', it doesn't change!!!)))

Hmmm, I guess I should do the right thing & pick the gf up from work...

240 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 1:59:40pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Robert Spencer’s Connections: The Serge Trifkovic File (Srjda Trifkovic)

Wow. So i looked up some things on one of the war criminals that Spencer's buddy had worked closely with, and I'd like to quote Biljana Plavšic...

""I would prefer completely to cleanse eastern Bosnia of Muslims. When I say cleanse, I don't want anyone to take me literally and think I mean ethnic cleansing. But they've attached this label 'ethnic cleansing' to a perfectly natural phenomenon and characterized it as some kind of war crime." (Svet, Novi Sad, 6 September 1993).

How's that for cold-blooded?

[Link: srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com...]

241 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:02:01pm

re: #240 Aceofwhat?

Unfortunately, Kejda didn't cross post her piece on Spencer's other friend James Jatras to her back-up blog. When her site is back up- I'll link it for you.

242 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:05:31pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Please call him R.S. McCain or something. I had a terrible picture of Pam Geller and John McCain together for a split second. Cindy doesn't deserve that. Neither does John, for that matter.

true, that is kind of disturbing

243 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:05:38pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

I'm still trying to find my happy place after this last read...take your time!

(playing baker st. on my acoustic...soothing...)

244 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:06:53pm

re: #237 sattv4u2

We humans work the way way we work and not how we want ourselves to work
The truth is we're designed to have sex then

Really? So when you see a woman on the street that sexually attracts you you HAVE to mount her (to use a phrase from Two And A Half Men). That would be your "natural" instinct, but you don't want to work that way!

Kids aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon

Yet this all started because you excoriated Pailn because her daughter did!

We're talking about minors, not me. I think a lot of people would tell you that they don't want their sons or daughters to desire sex at a young age. If they didn't want it it would go a long way to ending teen pregnancies.

As for Palin, I feel like we're having the same argument again. I don't like it when politicians insist on policies they themselves have failed at. I'm not going to take marriage advice from Ensign, Sanford, Edwards or Spitzer, either. If Palin came to your door right now and told you that abstinence was the only way to keep your daughter from getting pregnant you'd probably scratch your head, no?

245 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:10:19pm

re: #244 JasonA

We're talking about minors, not me. I think a lot of people would tell you that they don't want their sons or daughters to desire sex at a young age. If they didn't want it it would go a long way to ending teen pregnancies.

As for Palin, I feel like we're having the same argument again. I don't like it when politicians insist on policies they themselves have failed at. I'm not going to take marriage advice from Ensign, Sanford, Edwards or Spitzer, either. If Palin came to your door right now and told you that abstinence was the only way to keep your daughter from getting pregnant you'd probably scratch your head, no?

Dude. we're saying there exists no way to keep your daughter from getting pregnant. one can only try. all methods fail from time to time.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:13:09pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

Dude. we're saying there exists no way to keep your daughter from getting pregnant. one can only try. all methods fail from time to time.

I plan to try to encourage mine to become a lesbian, or at least date girls until she's out of college.

247 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:13:51pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

Good luck with that. :)

248 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:14:43pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

lmao

249 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:14:44pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

Dude. we're saying there exists no way to keep your daughter from getting pregnant. one can only try. all methods fail from time to time.

I just asking that they're actually taught all of those methods. Except for pulling out. That one's pretty crappy :P

250 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:15:50pm

re: #240 Aceofwhat?

But they've attached this label 'ethnic cleansing' to a perfectly natural phenomenon and characterized it as some kind of war crime." (Svet, Novi Sad, 6 September 1993).

Just like "it's perfectly natural to feel revulsion at interracial marriage" --RS McCain. *spit*

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:15:53pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

My sister tried really really hard to get her 14 year old daughter to come in and witness the birth of her youngest brother, but my niece wouldn't go for it.

She figured that there is no birth control in the world like watching a birth, and then watching how much work the baby was, although that was not the reason for having that sixth baby.

252 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:16:26pm

re: #249 JasonA

I just asking that they're actually taught all of those methods. Except for pulling out. That one's pretty crappy :P

Well, the other day one of the lizards suggested an Al Gore rhythm method, where you use the rhythm method and then visualize Al Gore halfway through. Because nothing puts a damper on coitus like visualizing Al Gore...

253 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:16:56pm

re: #249 JasonA

I just asking that they're actually taught all of those methods. Except for pulling out. That one's pretty crappy :P

So is the RCC approved "Rhythm Method". The generic term for a woman that uses it is "Mommy".

254 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:18:09pm

re: #253 austin_blue

So is the RCC approved "Rhythm Method". The generic term for a woman that uses it is "Mommy".

Or,
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy

255 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:18:10pm

re: #244 JasonA

Palin came to your door right now and told you that abstinence was the only way

#1. You have evidence that Palin told hre daughter this?
#2. If Gov Paolin DID ever 'come to my door" and say that I would tell her that I would INCLUDE that option to my teenage daughter as PART of her sex ed and thank her

256 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:19:18pm

re: #254 reine.de.tout

Or,
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy
Mommy

My mom only had five.

;-)

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:19:30pm

re: #251 EmmmieG

My sister tried really really hard to get her 14 year old daughter to come in and witness the birth of her youngest brother, but my niece wouldn't go for it.

She figured that there is no birth control in the world like watching a birth, and then watching how much work the baby was, although that was not the reason for having that sixth baby.

Witnessing the birth of my friend's daughter was one of the most amazing things I have ever done. But it might be a bit much for a fourteen year old.

258 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:20:20pm

re: #250 wrenchwench

Just like "it's perfectly natural to feel revulsion at interracial marriage" --RS McCain. *spit*

Spitting with you.

Apropos of your quote, though, am I the only person who finds the progeny of interracial marriages far more likely to be beautiful than the average person? It's like the outward manifestation of the genetic sensibility of interracial marriages (and a hint that God is giving the finger to any who disagree)

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:20:55pm

re: #253 austin_blue

So is the RCC approved "Rhythm Method". The generic term for a woman that uses it is "Mommy".

There's an Irish feminist postcard that shows a woman singing: "I've got rhythm, I've got twelve kids...who could ask for anything more?"

Same group that has a postcard showing "Bad times to tell your mother you're a lesbian," which shows one woman in a chapel veil turning to another at Mass".

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:21:47pm

re: #255 sattv4u2

Palin came to your door right now and told you that abstinence was the only way

#1. You have evidence that Palin told hre daughter this?
#2. If Gov Paolin DID ever 'come to my door" and say that I would tell her that I would INCLUDE that option to my teenage daughter as PART of her sex ed and thank her

I think that if Sarah Palin came to my door I would hide inside, and not answer, because the living room is messy.

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:22:33pm

re: #256 austin_blue

My mom only had five.

;-)

Rhythm actually works reasonably well, if your goal is to have a smaller family. If your goal is not to get pregnant, it's not a good idea.

262 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:23:01pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

Spitting with you.

Apropos of your quote, though, am I the only person who finds the progeny of interracial marriages far more likely to be beautiful than the average person? It's like the outward manifestation of the genetic sensibility of interracial marriages (and a hint that God is giving the finger to any who disagree)

Lisa Bonet, Halle Berry, the Creoles of New Orleans.

No. You are not alone.

263 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:23:35pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that if Sarah Palin came to my door I would hide inside, and not answer, because the living room is messy.

With her schedule and kids, I bet hers is also!

264 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:23:50pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

I plan to try to encourage mine to become a lesbian, or at least date girls until she's out of college.

well that is certainly a novel approach! and come to think of it, it actually has the best chance of working.
watching a birth is a creative one, too!

I know another way from a friend of mine, he had a girlfriend once, and within a week her parents were teasing her if she was going to do the deed already, so to say. they were quite cruel about it too (these parents have a diabolical sense of humor, pure genius!) and it left her so nervous and ashamed she hardly dared to kiss him anymore.

now I don't advocate that (making your child feel miserable is a sad thing to do, and should not be a solution IMO) but it sure as heck worked, and I thought it was pretty creative of them!

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

There's an Irish feminist postcard that shows a woman singing: "I've got rhythm, I've got twelve kids...who could ask for anything more?"

Same group that has a postcard showing "Bad times to tell your mother you're a lesbian," which shows one woman in a chapel veil turning to another at Mass".

do you have a picture of that second postcard? I want to keep that one for future use!

265 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:23:58pm

Charles, do you really believe RS is "anti-muslim"? To the best of my knowledge, he's always been careful to distinguish between muslims (people) versus islam (ideology/religion/system-of-governance).

Or have you become convinced that it is a distinction without a difference in his case? Or more generally, as a practical matter?

266 generalsparky  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:24:04pm

re: #253 austin_blue

So is the RCC approved "Rhythm Method". The generic term for a woman that uses it is "Mommy".

Just FYI, the rhythm method is crap and the Church approves Natural Family Planning, which uses science btw, and very effective if used correctly. And I know several Catholic women who used NFP and have no children so they would be pretty offended to be called "mommy" ;-)

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:24:06pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

Spitting with you.

Apropos of your quote, though, am I the only person who finds the progeny of interracial marriages far more likely to be beautiful than the average person? It's like the outward manifestation of the genetic sensibility of interracial marriages (and a hint that God is giving the finger to any who disagree)

I know what you mean. Mixed-race people do tend to be very pretty.

268 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:27:50pm

re: #210 austin_blue

I blogged about that a few years back - and the creeping of Abstinence Only and the purile silver ring cult into the UK. It wasn't diplomatic on my part.

It's epic epic fail.

Facepalm worthy even.

269 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:28:33pm

re: #265 abolitionist

Charles, do you really believe RS is "anti-muslim"? To the best of my knowledge, he's always been careful to distinguish between muslims (people) versus islam (ideology/religion/system-of-governance).

Or have you become convinced that it is a distinction without a difference in his case? Or more generally, as a practical matter?

RS makes a lot of what he says sound moderate and reasonable, but it tends to give such a chilling feeling when you consider what kind of (IMO dangerous) movements he meets and affiliates with.
now living in the netherlands I have a somewhat clear view of certain european racist movements he affiliates with, and I just don't see how you can make that distinction yourself without it being just a facade to sound reasonable, and on the other hand affiliate with said groups...
but I think it's deductive reasoning. unless charles has beter sourcing, which I'd be quite interested in.

270 Virginia Plain  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:29:20pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

Spitting with you.

Apropos of your quote, though, am I the only person who finds the progeny of interracial marriages far more likely to be beautiful than the average person? It's like the outward manifestation of the genetic sensibility of interracial marriages (and a hint that God is giving the finger to any who disagree)

My aunt married a German, and their third daughter is the best looking in the family. It's really apparent now that she is a teenager. They better lock the door.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:29:27pm

re: #264 ThomasLite

do you have a picture of that second postcard? I want to keep that one for future use!

Afraid not--these were for sale in Cork back when I was a student there, fifteen years ago. They were great, though. There were two more I remember:

A small girl looking very smug, while her brother yells "Daddy! Alice won't let me be a lesbian!"

and a man and woman sitting at a bar. The man says "I hate to see a woman drinking a pint," and in the next frame, the woman has snapped his glasses in two, and is saying "Is that better?"

272 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:31:03pm

re: #255 sattv4u2


#1. You have evidence that Palin told her daughter this?

I guess I owe you a coke...

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:32:09pm

re: #270 Virginia Plain

My aunt married a German, and their third daughter is the best looking in the family. It's really apparent now that she is a teenager. They better lock the door.

One of my coworkers has a niece and nephew who live in France, but visit on vacations. Mom is Minnesota Swede, dad is Senegalese French. The kids are ridiculously gorgeous.

They also think peanut butter sandwiches are gourmet treats, so they're very easy to entertain. ;)

274 generalsparky  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:34:00pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Very cute! My kids would eat peanut butter sandwiches for every meal if they could lol

275 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:37:01pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my coworkers has a niece and nephew who live in France, but visit on vacations. Mom is Minnesota Swede, dad is Senegalese French. The kids are ridiculously gorgeous.

They also think peanut butter sandwiches are gourmet treats, so they're very easy to entertain. ;)

Exactly what i'm saying. Usually when i'm watching some white supremacist ass spout his nonsense, on top of everything else i'm thinking how much he really needs another ethnicity in his immediate family to help knock the ugly out of his genes. Near-universal truth about white supremacists: uglier than a bucket of armpits.

276 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:37:19pm
277 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:40:29pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Afraid not--these were for sale in Cork back when I was a student there, fifteen years ago. They were great, though. There were two more I remember:

A small girl looking very smug, while her brother yells "Daddy! Alice won't let me be a lesbian!"

and a man and woman sitting at a bar. The man says "I hate to see a woman drinking a pint," and in the next frame, the woman has snapped his glasses in two, and is saying "Is that better?"

aw, shame. those two are great too, though. thanks!
both of your comments have been saved as favorites -- at least I will be able to retrieve them when I remember them.

the one in the church, I'll look into remaking it myself (can't imagine a feminist group would mind me spreading that rather humorous image regardless of copyright).

re: #275 Aceofwhat?

Exactly what i'm saying. Usually when i'm watching some white supremacist ass spout his nonsense, on top of everything else i'm thinking how much he really needs another ethnicity in his immediate family to help knock the ugly out of his genes. Near-universal truth about white supremacists: uglier than a bucket of armpits.

yes. well usually that kind of pathological hatred spawns from someone's feeling they've 'failed' or feeling inferior.
so I don't think that's a coincidence.
good part about it is, it helps them NOT get attention from anyone even further!

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:40:41pm

re: #274 generalsparky

Very cute! My kids would eat peanut butter sandwiches for every meal if they could lol

Apparently you can't get peanut butter in France.

279 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:42:15pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

Apparently you can't get peanut butter in France.

you can, but it's ridiculously expensive and kind of hard to find. whereas Nutella is abundant and less expensive. (thank god it's not that way here, or i'd be a balloon).

i lived in Brussels for a few years when i was ~10.

280 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:43:39pm

re: #269 ThomasLite

Perhaps this article would help, where Charles says this:

And yes, I do mean “anti-Muslim” — Spencer long ago crossed the line from simply criticizing radical Islamists to relentlessly demonizing all Muslims. And the bigoted, hateful comments he allows at his website are beyond disgusting.

281 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:45:16pm

re: #280 Sharmuta
Thanks.

282 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:45:23pm

Or this:

Fisking Spencer

283 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 2:55:58pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

Perhaps this article would help, where Charles says this:

hmm. okay, that's his odious record of affiliation all right.
what I was wondering is if anyone has him on record making direct statements himself? I couldn't find them in those articles (but then I have to admit I didn't read all the comments and links just now, just a quick once-over of the loonwatch article).
I'm not saying he's not anti-muslim (I'm pretty sure he is, and probably a racist to boot) but is he on record actually confirming that anywhere?

anyway, thanks for the links!

284 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:02:15pm

re: #283 ThomasLite

That's part of the problem. Robert always denies these accusations, but then turns around and associates with the bigots. To deflect from these criticisms, he doesn't denounce these bigoted groups, he denounces Charles and smears him with lies.

Just as one example:

Robert Spencer Joins Genocidal Facebook Group

Please be sure to see the update, where Robert blames Charles.

285 ThomasLite  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:18:16pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

That's part of the problem. Robert always denies these accusations, but then turns around and associates with the bigots. To deflect from these criticisms, he doesn't denounce these bigoted groups, he denounces Charles and smears him with lies.

Just as one example:

Robert Spencer Joins Genocidal Facebook Group

Please be sure to see the update, where Robert blames Charles.

yes, I read that little gem. creepy little guy it is. okay, I was just wondering if I had missed something. thanks for your help!

286 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:21:47pm

re: #285 ThomasLite

Charles has done a good job in documenting issues with Spencer and Geller, and the tag viewer, tag storm, and archives are the best tools to research the issue if you need more info. (That goes not just for this issue, but most issues covered at LGF.) Glad I could be of help. :)

287 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:28:00pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

Perhaps this article would help, where Charles says this:

At that post, excerpted from Fisking Robert Spencer

Spencer’s point is to claim that the event was a “missed opportunity” at which the organisers should have spent their time denouncing terrorism. He tries very hard to make us believe that they didn’t because they don’t disagree with terrorism and that, in fact, they want to impose Sharia Law on the United States. Here is a fisking of the main points from the article...

The blogger at Little Bulldogs goes on to say:

I spoke to several Muslims at the event; all said they'd like to see Islamic law, Sharia, come to the United States - a sentiment rife with political implications that remain a matter of indifference on the part of officials sworn to uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution.

I'm finding some of this fisking stuff very confusing.

288 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:46:49pm

I will admit that I am somewhat saddened that Robert Spencer associates with fascist groups and resorts to outright lies to further his personal agenda. He could have been a powerful ally against the forces of rampant anti-semitism in the East and West. But embracing those who promote racism, just because they claim to be anti-fascist/anti-jihadist, hinders the effort to address & challenge the bigotry of anti-semitism when it arises. It's hypocritical. It does not fly.

Secondly, I wonder if Spencer has ever had a 'heart-to-heart' with leftists who are also ardent Zionists? He should. In the Bay Area, there are liberals and leftists who are Zionist. Some of 'em even march in the Pride parade.

289 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 3:55:35pm

re: #287 abolitionist

Little bulldogs went on to say this:

Once more just the word of Robert Spencer to go on and I'm sure it is easy to find people in a crowd of 3,000 who would like to see at least elements of Sharia adopted in the US. Did any of these people suggest that Sharia should be imposed? If I went into a crowd of Christians I bet I could find several who would say that abortion should be banned and homosexuals locked up. In fact, some Christian protesters at the event were shouting:

Abortion is Murder!! Homosexuality is Sin!! Islam is a Lie!!

So even if true it indicates very little. Ask any religious Jews whether they want to see the Messiah arrive and Jewish Law return and they will say "yes". Isn't it easy to say that Jews want to see Jewish law come to the United States?

I think this is a fair point. Especially considering all we've discussed concerning the religious right in this country.

I think the real proof lies in Robert's associations with fascist groups. All he ever has for excuses is words, but I think actions speak much louder, and his actions show he's still willing to meet with these people.

290 irish rose  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:55:25pm

Sue the bastard.

291 J.S.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 4:59:23pm

imo, the Green Party has "problems" shall we say with regard to the State of Israel (this isn't "news" for most people living in Canada). They work for Israel's destruction (they're anti-Zionists), but as they rapidly point out "Why, that doesn't mean they're antisemites! Perish the thought!"

So, there are individuals such as Qais Ghanem and others who demand that Israel "calls upon Israel to end its forty-year occupation of all Arab lands without preconditions.” (It's also similar to what's found with the NDP, socialist party. Thus, at websites -- say, Rabble -- one can read essays such as "Why Israel if a Terrorist State" and other similar articles (which are basically calls for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. The site was begun and is, i believe, still run by a Jewish woman -- who, imo, is anti-Zionist...along with many others, such as Naomi Klein, etc.) Here's a link to a Globe and Mail article...which goes back to 2008.

292 jayzee  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:22:15pm
In her remarks she strongly condemned Hezbollah for launching rocket attacks in to Israel as well as Israel for the bombing of Lebanon.


Thus was Elizabeth Mays response to the challenge to condemn Hezballah as a terrorist group. Typical moral equivalency BS in my opinion and quite shameful.

293 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:23:41pm

re: #279 Aceofwhat?

mmm nutella...

form a sandwhich comprisiing two mcvities digestive biscuits and nutella... or...smash some digestive biscuits to form a base comprised with hot butter to hold it together - then chill it - and apply nuttella as a topping.

294 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:36:33pm

re: #291 J.S.

I had a very reasonable several paragraph post on the topic but i shall suffice myself in saying to you that - people of all religions and none can be of the belief that no nation state should be a relgious one and hold that belief strictly across the board.

295 J.S.  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:40:23pm

re: #294 wozzablog

"people of all religions and none can be of the belief that no nation state should be a relgious one and hold that belief strictly across the board".

So, you're actively working for the destruction of the Vatican, Iran and S. Arabia? Zionism,, btw, is a secular movement, not a religious one.

296 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:54:16pm

re: #295 J.S.

I didn't say acting upon - and yes people are pissed as hell about Saudi... cutting peoples hands off tends to get the heckles up.
Vatican - can go do something up a rope for all the harm it has done in stripping foreign lands, holding back science and covering up child abuse.
Iran - ofcourse.

What part of strcitly and across the board was not clear?

In a thread on Iran/Saudi i would say precisey the same thing about Religion.

Where did i say that Zionism was a particularly Jewish movement? - many of it's greatest supporters are not - themselves Jewish. Try being Jewish and Anti-Zionist though, some of my friends in London and their friends Israel have - they doubt the strict seperation of Judaism and Zionism as a secular political movement.

But - in all this (purely linguistically) - does it not strike you as a none sequitur - that there should be a Secular movement to create and reinforce a Religious nation?

297 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:55:41pm

re: #295 J.S.

and any thread where i express more on Religion than Mcvities Digestive Biscuits is a sad one.

298 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 5:59:31pm

re: #292 jayzee

Thus was Elizabeth Mays response to the challenge to condemn Hezballah as a terrorist group. Typical moral equivalency BS in my opinion and quite shameful.

I disagree with the moral equivalence of that statement too. But my point stands -- she is not a Hezbollah supporter.

299 jayzee  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 8:16:31pm

re: #298 Charles

I disagree with the moral equivalence of that statement too. But my point stands -- she is not a Hezbollah supporter.

I agree, though I feel that this does gives legitimacy to them and other terror organizations. Unfortunately, the left is not alone in making this error of judgement. There were even rumors that Bush's state department floated ideas of negotiating with Hamas for example and the Israelis are currently negotiating with Hamas and have, through intermediaries, negotiated with Hezballah. I really think it's a mistake however.

300 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 9:22:30pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

I'm still trying to find my happy place after this last read...take your time!

(playing baker st. on my acoustic...soothing...)

Here are Kejda's two pieces on Spencer's connections, now that her site is back up:

[Link: www.kejda.net...]
[Link: www.kejda.net...]

301 stayfrosty  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 9:32:52pm

This is the problem with all guilt-by-association arguments. You use Elizabeth May's comments on Climate Change, an issue completely unrelated to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, and now you have to dig through her history to prove she's not an Israel-hater.

302 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 5, 2009 9:57:30pm

re: #301 stayfrosty

This is the problem with all guilt-by-association arguments. You use Elizabeth May's comments on Climate Change, an issue completely unrelated to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, and now you have to dig through her history to prove she's not an Israel-hater.

It took about 30 seconds to find these links. I didn't have to dig at all.

303 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 5:14:45am

re: #298 Charles

I disagree with the moral equivalence of that statement too. But my point stands -- she is not a Hezbollah supporter.


She is equalizing Hizb-Allah and Israel and thus supporting the Jihadists, although not promoting them openly as Spencer is implicating.
Those statements and demonstrations where she was participating have one aim: undermining Israel's right of self-defense.

There's no good reason to defend her. It would be better to simply clarify that she was quoted about the climate-debate, not about her positions regarding Israel.

304 joelr  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:00:49am

Here's one of the rare ones where -- epithets aside -- both sides are right. It pretty clearly became a Hezbollah rally, in practice, if not in theory (because Canadian law doesn't allow official, Hezbollah-sponsored demos). That's really not okay. CJ has been scathing in his criticism of anti-Islamist folks for associating with bigots; the same principle applies here.

On the other hand, science is science. If global warming has been proved or failed to be proved or disproven, it doesn't matter if the person doing the proving, or lack thereof, is politically nutso.

As a side matter, fwiw (a lot to me; little or nothing to others, I'd expect), the ongoing feud between LGF and other folks saddens me tremendously.

305 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:19:35am

re: #304 joelr

There's a big difference between quoting someone or referring to an individual with regards to a scientific matter than aligning oneself with an individual or group along political ideology and political goals. To refer to Elizabeth May in the matter of AGW does not equate to aligning oneself with her on all matter political. It would have to be stated as such and it was clearly not in this case. Robert Oppenheimer was a "fellow traveler" of communist studies including many friends; Albert Einstein was a socialist; and so on.

Are we to perform a political background check like the secret police when referring to individuals every time we care to make a point? And if we find something objectionable in their past are we to censor that point and instead seek an individual that both meets our scientific or technological points and at the same time agrees with us on everything politically? That's not going to every be accomplished especially in the field of science and it's an absurd proposition.

Where does it end? Do we do the same with music? Does saying you listen to David Byrne or the Talking Heads means you align with him politically? The fact is that David Byrne has similar views as Elizabeth May. Are we supposed to boycott his music completely? Are we going to fear admitting our admiration of his music for fear of being equated with his political views?

No one in this case aligned with Elizabeth May politically. Nor did they meet with Elizabeth May in a secret meeting in Europe as did Robert Spencer and his ilk on many occasions with far-right and racist groups such as pro-Koln, Vlaams Belang, the BNP, and the individual cranks, etc.

306 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:24:38am

re: #304 joelr

As a side matter, fwiw (a lot to me; little or nothing to others, I'd expect), the ongoing feud between LGF and other folks saddens me tremendously.

Right, I'm sure it really makes you sad. By the way, have you ever said anything like that to Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, who are absolutely deranged in their obsession with me? I respond to ONE of Spencer's posts (out of dozens) and suddenly I'm engaged in an "ongoing feud?"

The hypocrisy is glaring.

307 stayfrosty  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 7:50:20pm

re: #305 Gus 802

I fully agree. That's exactly the reason why I said guilt-by-association arguments in general are problematic (which got me down-dinged for some reason.) Thankfully Charles was able to refute Spencer's accusations with minimal research into Elizabeth May's record. But the point I was making was that he felt compelled to do so in the first place.

308 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:48:15am

Here is a video of Elizabeth May addressing the pro-Hezbollah rally in Toronto in 2006. This was during the War with Lebanon. Elizabeth May called Israel an apartheid state, called Israel "racist", an "occupier" and called for "an end to Zionism." The "jews" who supported this are not, repeat, not, "mainstream Jews". Later, there was also a "delegation" which went to Cairo, Egypt to cosy up to Hamas and Hezbollah, and further the demands for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Here also are the pictures of the Hezbollah flags, along with the pictures in support of Nasrallah.

Just, be aware of who and what you're supporting. And, once again, this was a pro-Hezbollah rally. Unless of course we're now all to engage in PC and claim, "Hezbollah Means Peace!" lol

309 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:13:04am

re: #308 J.S.

Here is a video of Elizabeth May addressing the pro-Hezbollah rally in Toronto in 2006. This was during the War with Lebanon. Elizabeth May called Israel an apartheid state, called Israel "racist", an "occupier" and called for "an end to Zionism." The "jews" who supported this are not, repeat, not, "mainstream Jews". Later, there was also a "delegation" which went to Cairo, Egypt to cosy up to Hamas and Hezbollah, and further the demands for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Here also are the pictures of the Hezbollah flags, along with the pictures in support of Nasrallah.

Just, be aware of who and what you're supporting. And, once again, this was a pro-Hezbollah rally. Unless of course we're now all to engage in PC and claim, "Hezbollah Means Peace!" lol

Exactly where did Elizabeth May make the statements you're attributing to her? I watched these video clips and I didn't hear her saying anything like that.

310 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:14:23am

Note this from the post you linked to:

Unfortunately the video cuts off before she begins speaking – still you can get an idea of what came before her.

So why are you trying to claim that she said these things?

311 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:51am

re: #310 Charles
Charles, regardless of what she said - do you saw the pictures of the rally where she was agitating against Israel? Are you sure that this person is worth your support?
Why not simply rejecting her anti-zionist views and separating them from the this climate-thing (about which you quoted her)? Otherwise you are playing exactly the game Spencer wants you to play.

312 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:46:24am

re: #310 Charles

It was a pro-Hezbollah rally. I was assuming that Elizabeth May supports what is said (although, i do stand corrected, not having noted that someone else may have been speaking -- although does anyone know WHO was speaking here? Who was the woman speaking about Apartheid Israel? If this was not Eiizabeth May, then Who was it? And where is the transcript of Elizabeth May's speech at this rally? Where is it? I would like to have it.) What is known, and can easily be confirmed is the Left (from the "progressive wing") support for Hamas and Hezbollah. And, it's not just the Green Party. It comes from the NDP, and even certain Liberal members of Parliament.

In May 2007, 20 of these alleged "peace" activists went to hob-nob with terrorists in Cairo. Which then led true progressives to ask them questions:
Read this article (I'm in complete agreement with). Here. Even Tarek Fatah, the moderate Muslim, had to leave the NDP. In Canada both -- both sides -- left and right -- have extremist elements. And, as much as I'm aware, May has not distanced herself from these elements. Or, at least, not to my satisfaction.

313 researchok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:28am

Elizabeth May's politics are no secret. She and others in the Green Party share a Middle East political ideology that may at times embrace the absurd and satisfy no one.

She also made clear that the rally was 'invaded' by groups who were not invited.

May's politics may be silly and revolting even, but it doesn't make her an anti Semite.

314 rjjago  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:54:53am

I wrote all those Elizabeth May posts in question.

The point isn't that she's an Israel-hating anti-semite terrorist - she's not. The point is that as the leader of a party with claims to respectability, she had a responsibility to say something. It wasn't enough for her to condemn missiles and bombs - she should have also come out and said that Hezbollah are terrorists and the supporting them in our streets was wrong.

I put up that video so readers can see that she wasn't in the dark about what was going on at that rally. She stood there through a half hour long anti-Israel hate fest, in front of a mob of chanting fascists, and she said next to nothing.

When the Liberals were in the same situation in Montreal, even they condemned Hezbollah and demanded that they be disarmed. But Elizabeth May could only blindly utter an "even handed" condemnation of Hezbollah missiles and Israeli bombs.

315 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:56:48am

re: #313 researchok

Elizabeth May's politics are no secret. She and others in the Green Party share a Middle East political ideology that may at times embrace the absurd and satisfy no one.
She also made clear that the rally was 'invaded' by groups who were not invited.
May's politics may be silly and revolting even, but it doesn't make her an anti Semite.


Ok, thanks for claryifing this. I didn't know that the Hizb-Allah-people were not "invited". But those people didn't found their way to this rally by chance. You ay be right that this woman is not an anti-semite, but her "peace"-rhetoric at a critical moment for Israel (when fighting a jihadist-terror-group) is at best naive.

316 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:25am

Another article: titled: Suicide Terrorism Isn't Progressive..(it's an opinion piece.)

317 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:21am

re: #315 gegenkritik

Ok, thanks for claryifing this. I didn't know that the Hizb-Allah-people were not "invited".

You could try reading my post.

318 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:48am

re: #314 rjjago

Try reading my post. She did come out with a statement.

319 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:19:13am

The idea that I'm "supporting" Elizabeth May is a rotten lie. I made it very clear that she's a leftist, and I don't agree with a lot of her political positions.

I quoted her statements about the CRU emails, and this has led to an extended smear attempt. Disgusting. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

320 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:21:31am

re: #316 J.S.

Another article: titled: Suicide Terrorism Isn't Progressive..(it's an opinion piece.)

Are you even reading these links you're putting up? That article praises Elizabeth May for not allowing extremists into the Green Party.

Suicide terrorism isn't 'progressive' politics.

... when Green party leader Elizabeth May learned that Kevin Potvin, nominated for the Greens in Vancouver, had written disquieting things about 9/11, she investigated, then ditched him.

321 Jadespring  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:25:48am

This rally did get quite a reaction in left wing circles when it happened. Activists the organized the rally and many who attended, who did happen to be Jewish were rightly pissed when the Hez people showed up. They were told to f right off and leave but of course damage done. This was in no way a pro-Hez rally and no I don't personally agree with what the actual rallies message I can be fair enough to not equate it with message of the rally crashers.

As for further clarification the radical left actually gives the Green Party's policies on Isreal and Afghanistan a big thumbs down because it's apparently to durn right wing and not 'left enough'. Many radical lefties who hold more extreme views fight with the party about it. I totally agree with rjjago though that the smart thing to do would be at least make condemnation statement, which as he rightly points out she didn't. However anyone who follows May can easily find other reasons why she didn't that don't equate with her supporting it. The main one being that as politician dealing with this realm of affairs she generally just stinks at it and ends running all over the place in some haphazard way and is incredibly naive about the political complexities and the 'politics' of it all.

I'm not sure she even knows what she supports or doesn't support when it comes to Isreal and you're likely going to get some half assed garble about 'everyone should just get along, fairness and pink unicorn and fairy meadows' that ends up pissing everyone off. It also seems to depend on the day.

On environmental issues she's sound and pretty solid, that is her field and what she's been doing for years. Imo should just stick to that because on many other issues she's an example of the Peter Principle in action.

322 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:30:29am

re: #321 Jadespring

On environmental issues she's sound and pretty solid, that is her field and what she's been doing for years. Imo should just stick to that because on many other issues she's an example of the Peter Principle in action.

Exactly. The only reason her attendance at this rally has even been raised is in order to smear me, because I quoted her opinion about the stolen CRU emails.

I'm not required to do extensive background checks on everyone I quote about environmental issues. And I'm not going to be intimidated by these kinds of thuggish tactics.

323 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:32:34am

re: #320 Charles

Of course I read the article. Elizabeth May is inconsistent as to who she turns upon or kicks out of the party. I would much more apt to give her the benefit of the doubt, if her policies were consistently followed. See post 291. Why is she then keeping in the party a Qais Ghanem? Is that consistent?

324 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #322 Charles

As far as I'm concerned, you have every right to quote May with respect to the CRU emails. The only "problem" I have with the Green Party is its extremist (imo) positions with regard to Israel (its alignment with radicals in the Islamist movement, etc.) And with respect to the latter, I don't expect anyone outside of Canada to even be aware of this sort of linkage.

325 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:43:58am

re: #317 Charles
If you quote this sentence, you should not forget the one that followed.

And to make this clear: I don't think you are supporting her views regarding Israel, so, sorry for being a bit over the top.

But I wish you had distanced from her with the same strong words you are using on people here ("bloody lie", "you should be ashamed of yourself") and not with things like "I disagree with the moral equivalence of that statement too".

326 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #324 J.S.

Before you just move on to other subjects, don't you think you should acknowledge that you were blatantly wrong when you claimed that Elizabeth May had made all kinds of extremist statements in those videos you linked?

She's NOT EVEN IN THE VIDEOS. Why did you say she made those statements?

327 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:32am

re: #326 Charles

It's the problem with blogs -- I followed a link -- it stated that this was a Youtube link complete with the Headline:"Video of Elizabeth May at 'Peace Rally'." And, when I clicked on the video links, I assumed that was Elizabeth May speaking. According to later reports, as i noted above, it wasn't May who was speaking. I've already said I was mistaken in assuming (rashly) it turns out to attributing the unknown woman's remarks to May. But, as far as I can determine, Elizabeth May was at that rally, and she did attend, and apparently didn't object to what was said. My apologies for being in error.

328 Jadespring  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:03:55pm

re: #323 J.S.

Of course I read the article. Elizabeth May is inconsistent as to who she turns upon or kicks out of the party. I would much more apt to give her the benefit of the doubt, if her policies were consistently followed. See post 291. Why is she then keeping in the party a Qais Ghanem? Is that consistent?

For the same reason that in my riding during the last election the Green Candidate was a right leaning conservative who worked at the nuclear power plant. As whole they're inconsistent and within party ranks you'll find any number of viewpoints on issues regarding Isreal and bitter arguments of where the party should stand on it. There's been and still is an internal struggle that's been going on for years over policy issues beyond the environmental stuff. Actually on that too. That pretty much started when Harris was leader because Harris was not a leftie in any traditional sense. His main 'unofficial' advisors especially around economics and business came straight out of the right.

329 J.S.  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:57pm

re: #328 Jadespring

The Greens strike me as a "confused" party...(I recall reading something about E. May and abortion -- but, again, that's probably another rumor or something...iirc she came out opposed to abortion rights for women...which pretty much sank her in the Liberal community -- although she may have later "corrected" that stance...) I really wish that The Greens would just stick with environmental issues (forget the "peace" talks, the Middle Eastern affairs, etc., imo, that's when they go off the rails.)

330 Jadespring  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:50:19pm

re: #329 J.S.

The Greens strike me as a "confused" party...(I recall reading something about E. May and abortion -- but, again, that's probably another rumor or something...iirc she came out opposed to abortion rights for women...which pretty much sank her in the Liberal community -- although she may have later "corrected" that stance...) I really wish that The Greens would just stick with environmental issues (forget the "peace" talks, the Middle Eastern affairs, etc., imo, that's when they go off the rails.)

No the abortion issue was real, happened during the London by-election if I remember correctly when she did some sort of election thing with some religious group. She made some comments about abortion that came off really wishy washy. They were taken in all sorts of directions by people both left and right. Many on the left used them to show that she and the party were actually anti-choice. I don't think that she ever came out and really clarified them but the party did have to release a statement about their policy on it to clear them up.

And yeah confused is probably a decent description but I think that's a manifestation of how many of their official policies are quite traditional 'left' and others move in the realm of traditionally 'right.' I know lefties that hate them cause they're right and righties that hate them cause they're left and vice versa. They seem to attract people from all over the spectrum which is why you do end up finding such differences in some of their candidates in terms of politics beyond 'we just care about environmental issues'. Conventions must be fun.


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