Tanenhaus: Populism, Politics and the Power of Sarah Palin

In the New Yorker, Sam Tanenhaus has a very interesting review of Sarah Palin’s book, with a revealing quote from Palin’s father about her reason for leaving Hawaii (where she was attending UH):

She is equally circumspect on the issue of ethnicity, pointing out that Todd, whom she met in high school, is “part Yupik Eskimo” and opened her to the “social diversity” of Alaska. (Wasilla is more than eighty per cent white.)Palin, though notoriously ill-travelled outside the United States, did journey far to the first of the four colleges she attended, in Hawaii. She and a friend who went with her lasted only one semester. “Hawaii was a little too perfect,” Palin writes. “Perpetual sunshine isn’t necessarily conducive to serious academics for eighteen-year-old Alaska girls.” Perhaps not. But Palin’s father, Chuck Heath, gave a different account to Conroy and Walshe. According to him, the presence of so many Asians and Pacific Islanders made her uncomfortable: “They were a minority type thing and it wasn’t glamorous, so she came home.” In any case, Palin reports that she much preferred her last stop, the University of Idaho, “because it was much like Alaska yet still ‘Outside.’ ”

Palin’s discomfort is easy to understand. Race is often the subtext of populist campaigns; their most potent appeal is to whites who are feeling under siege by changing economic and cultural conditions. Palin’s strength with this constituency can only have grown since the last election.

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408 comments

1 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:33:39am
Palin’s discomfort is easy to understand. Race is often the subtext of populist campaigns; their most potent appeal is to whites who are feeling under siege by changing economic and cultural conditions. Palin’s strength with this constituency can only have grown since the last election.

With some help from glenn beck and other nativists like stacy mccain.

2 Teh Flowah  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:39:06am

This feels tenuous, reaching, shakey. The parts I would have bolded are...

"First of four colleges" are you kidding me?
"Part Yupik Eskimo" That sounds like people who say IM NOT RACIST, SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE BLACK.
"social diversity" wut?

3 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:39:21am

And so it comes full-circle. She's a racist, per Mr. Tanenhaus.

4 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #3 Guanxi88

And so it comes full-circle. She's a racist, per Mr. Tanenhaus.

No, per her own father.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:42:46am

re: #3 Guanxi88

And so it comes full-circle. She's a racist, per Mr. Tanenhaus.

Maybe more complex than that--she and the people around her are really not aware of what the United States looks like. I keep getting told that I need to understand the special, rugged values of Sarah's constituency, while realizing that she really has no clue about any other place. How can she possibly share who she and hers are, if the rest of us just slightly squick her out?

6 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:42:46am

This would make more sense if this story is true:

Sarah Palin's Book Ghostwritten by Associate of White Supremacist McCain

7 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:43:04am

I'm certainly no fan of Palin's, but comments like

Palin, though notoriously ill-travelled outside the United States

don't strike me as particularly well-reasoned or germane. What is it that makes such a lack "notorious" exactly? And why is it an "ill"-ness? An awful lot of people have never traveled outside their own countries - I'd bet a large majority, in fact.

Tanenhaus' remark strikes me as smug, arrogant and smarmy. And it stains whatever follows it.

8 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:43:26am

re: #4 Charles

No, per her own father.

Someone misread it that way in the last thread too. What is up with that?

9 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #4 Charles

No, per her own father.

Correction: her father noted she felt herself uncomfortable around so many Asians and Pacific Islanders, and it was left to Mr. Tanenhaus to finish the thought and explain it as of a piece with the latent racism at the root of populist movements.

10 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:44:24am

re: #8 iceweasel

Someone misread it that way in the last thread too. What is up with that?

Her father did not accuse her of racist tendencies, but did note she felt uncomfortable around Asians and Pacific Islanders while in Hawaii. Mr. T, however, ties that into her political inclinations and populism.

11 Mark Pennington  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:44:35am

It just gets crazier and crazier. It will be kind of hard to slime her own father, right?

12 ghazidor  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:44:48am

Well the possibility that someone who was not raised around much racial diversity might feel slighty uncomfortable or out of place when placed in the minority is not exactly shocking. Nor does it necessarily mean that they are a racist, it is how they handle that discomfort that matters.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:44:58am

re: #7 SixDegrees

I'm certainly no fan of Palin's, but comments like


don't strike me as particularly well-reasoned or germane. What is it that makes such a lack "notorious" exactly? And why is it an "ill"-ness? An awful lot of people have never traveled outside their own countries - I'd bet a large majority, in fact.

Tanenhaus' remark strikes me as smug, arrogant and smarmy. And it stains whatever follows it.

I kind of like the idea of a vice president who has some idea of what the world looks like, at least the world outside Wasilla.

14 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:45:43am

re: #7 SixDegrees

I'm certainly no fan of Palin's, but comments like

don't strike me as particularly well-reasoned or germane. What is it that makes such a lack "notorious" exactly? And why is it an "ill"-ness? An awful lot of people have never traveled outside their own countries - I'd bet a large majority, in fact.

Tanenhaus' remark strikes me as smug, arrogant and smarmy. And it stains whatever follows it.

Please. It was 'notorious' in the sense of well-known-- because it was an issue during the campaign. And while it may not be unusual for the average American, don't we expect and want more from our leaders (or potential leaders) than that they be 'average'?

And Palin made it an issue herself by trying to claim any kind of foreign relations cred. Pitiful.

15 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:46:23am

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

I kind of like the idea of a vice president who has some idea of what the world looks like, at least the world outside Wasilla.

I agree. But the commentary here has little to do with Palin's political qualifications that I can see.

16 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:47:52am

My favorite Sam Tanenhaus quote of the year:

[Link: www.tnr.com...]

"In the end, movement conservatives got the war they wanted--both at home and abroad. It ended, at last, with the 2008 election, and the emergence of a president who seems more thoroughly steeped in the principles of Burkean conservatism than any significant thinker or political figure on the right."

That's right, folks, per Mr. Tanenhaus, BHO is a Burkean conservative.

17 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:47:52am

She's married to an eskimo. How can she be racist?

18 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:48:53am

re: #16 Guanxi88

My favorite Sam Tanenhaus quote of the year:

[Link: www.tnr.com...]

"In the end, movement conservatives got the war they wanted--both at home and abroad. It ended, at last, with the 2008 election, and the emergence of a president who seems more thoroughly steeped in the principles of Burkean conservatism than any significant thinker or political figure on the right."

That's right, folks, per Mr. Tanenhaus, BHO is a Burkean conservative.

(And for the record, I own and love his biography of Whittaker Chambers)

19 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:48:54am

re: #17 Racer X

I don't know. How can Malkin write for Vdare?

20 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:49:49am

It's sad how little some people have progressed in society. I keep thinking that 50 years from now people will see hating people for being gay like we currently do with blacks and the civil rights movement, then I realize how many people still have the mindset during the civil rights movement and haven't progressed at all. It only promotes my pessimism.

21 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #16 Guanxi88

My favorite Sam Tanenhaus quote of the year:

[Link: www.tnr.com...]

"In the end, movement conservatives got the war they wanted--both at home and abroad. It ended, at last, with the 2008 election, and the emergence of a president who seems more thoroughly steeped in the principles of Burkean conservatism than any significant thinker or political figure on the right."

That's right, folks, per Mr. Tanenhaus, BHO is a Burkean conservative.

According to your quote, Tanenhaus thinks that Obama is more of a Burkean conservative, or at least more familiar with the principles of Burkean conservatism, than any significant thinker on the right.

That isn't implausible, nor is it the same as saying that Obama IS a burkean conservative.

22 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:51:37am

This stands out from the New Yorker article:

Conservatives, who used to denounce “identity politics,” have fashioned their own version of it, anchored in the culture wars, with its parallel conflicts of background and class. Palin incarnates the latest version, which is a politics not of “special interests” but of the singular self.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:52:10am

re: #17 Racer X

She's married to an eskimo. How can she be racist?

I don't think she is, in a classic sense. I think she's bothered by people who are not like her. Todd comes from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture. I think she can't deal with people who do not share those things with her, or step out of herself, or find common ground with Americans who aren't 'her kind of people'. That's why I find the folksy patter, coming from her, so nauseating.

24 WindHorse  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:53:30am

if we were all judged by things we said, thought or did in our early twenties (ie. age), none of us would fare too well...

25 Kruk  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:54:04am

re: #22 Gus 802

This stands out from the New Yorker article:

Not to mention that the same people who used to denounce "victimhood" are suddenly wallowing in the idea that they're an oppressed minority who are being hounded.

26 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:54:12am

re: #20 Pepper Fox

It's sad how little some people have progressed in society. I keep thinking that 50 years from now people will see hating people for being gay like we currently do with blacks and the civil rights movement, then I realize how many people still have the mindset during the civil rights movement and haven't progressed at all. It only promotes my pessimism.

Specific bigotries never completely disappear. But they dwindles into insignificance over time. There will always, though, be some small number who hang onto them.

On the topic of hating gays, my own projections for reducing that to an extreme minority position are that such a time, if not already here, certainly will be in a lot less than a half-century. The amount of progress that's occurred just in the last few years has been rapid and widespread, almost startling.

27 srjh  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:54:41am

Less and less surprises me about this woman these days.

What would be surprising is if this had even the slightest impact on her support base.

28 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:54:45am

re: #17 Racer X

She's married to an eskimo. How can she be racist?

I wondered about that also. She is certainly aware of the indigenous people of Alaska who after all are descendants of those who left Asia. Why would she be uncomfortable around them? Perhaps it is culture and not race which caused her to be uncomfortable?

29 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:55:39am

re: #16 Guanxi88

My favorite Sam Tanenhaus quote of the year:

[Link: www.tnr.com...]

"In the end, movement conservatives got the war they wanted--both at home and abroad. It ended, at last, with the 2008 election, and the emergence of a president who seems more thoroughly steeped in the principles of Burkean conservatism than any significant thinker or political figure on the right."

That's right, folks, per Mr. Tanenhaus, BHO is a Burkean conservative.


It's not really that much of a stretch: Liberal conservatism
Republicans don't have a monopoly on conservatism. Much of what they support (creationism, opposing gay marriage, economic populism, etc) has nothing at all to do with conservative principles.

30 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:57:05am

Tanenhaus uses the racial charge to discredit populism on what is a fairly safe ground. This is not the primary or even the most important objection to populism as a movement and populists such as Palin et al.

re: #21 iceweasel

According to your quote, Tanenhaus thinks that Obama is more of a Burkean conservative, or at least more familiar with the principles of Burkean conservatism, than any significant thinker on the right.

That isn't implausible, nor is it the same as saying that Obama IS a burkean conservative.

Tanenhaus' version of Burkean conservatism amounts to little more than accommodation to the latest status quo attained following the last leftist push forward. He is categorically counter-revolutionary, and even goes so far as to blame a fairly good-sized chunk of the counterrevolutionary movement (identified in his mind somehow also with neo-conservatism) to the vestiges of Marxist patterns of thought among new converts to the Right.

Paradoxically, he blames these "Right" Marxists for attempting to undo what their "Left" Marxist comrades had done before them. On his definition, Burkean conservatism is indistinguishable from a slightly moderated version of whatever it tis that the core of the political left is pushing for at any given moment, and is dedicated to the maintenance and support of the previous gains made by the political left.

In short, Burke would call him a fool and laugh in his face for libeling his name with such tendentious stuff.

31 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:59:42am

I've been to Hawaii, and yes, Haoles are often discriminated against by the locals. Perhaps Palin experienced a form of this and conveyed it to her father, hence the comment.

Kill Haole Day

32 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:59:58am

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think she is, in a classic sense. I think she's bothered by people who are not like her. Todd comes from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture. I think she can't deal with people who do not share those things with her, or step out of herself, or find common ground with Americans who aren't 'her kind of people'. That's why I find the folksy patter, coming from her, so nauseating.

As was mentioned in the article this is about identity politics. Palin embodies an ideal state for her followers and those who as you say, "[come] from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture." In this case it is a stringent test in politics with no room for the vastness of American society. Her propensity for memes are simply the vocalization of the proverbial litmus test that appeals to the minority that makes up those that identify with the Palin ideal.

33 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:00:21pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

It's not really that much of a stretch: Liberal conservatism
Republicans don't have a monopoly on conservatism. Much of what they support (creationism, opposing gay marriage, economic populism, etc) has nothing at all to do with conservative principles.

The positions in question are populist, not conservative, as you note. This is not to say that the opposite of these positions is conservative, either.

34 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:01:58pm

re: #26 SixDegrees

Specific bigotries never completely disappear. But they dwindles into insignificance over time. There will always, though, be some small number who hang onto them.

On the topic of hating gays, my own projections for reducing that to an extreme minority position are that such a time, if not already here, certainly will be in a lot less than a half-century. The amount of progress that's occurred just in the last few years has been rapid and widespread, almost startling.

Well we were on a pretty good track to full acceptance. Then Bush happened, and if not set us back then at least put it on hold.

35 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:02:18pm

re: #30 Guanxi88

All right, now what was it in what I wrote that warranted a whack?

36 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:02:49pm

re: #34 Pepper Fox

Well we were on a pretty good track to full acceptance. Then Bush happened, and if not set us back then at least put it on hold.

Huh?

37 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:03:01pm

re: #34 Pepper Fox

Blame Bush.

Check.

38 TheMatrix31  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:03:20pm

re: #34 Pepper Fox

Yay, let's blame Bush for holding back progress on gays! Where does that fall in line with the hurricane machine and evil corporations, though?

39 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:04:27pm

re: #38 TheMatrix31

Yay, let's blame Bush for holding back progress on gays! Where does that fall in line with the hurricane machine and evil corporations, though?

Yes. This current administration inherited all these problems, don't you know?

40 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #24 WindHorse

if we were all judged by things we said, thought or did in our early twenties (ie. age), none of us would fare too well...

Yeah, I was a card-carrying member of the CPUSA back then.

41 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #34 Pepper Fox

I'm not sure I can agree, but I'll note that the path to acceptance is rarely linear, no matter what the circumstances.

42 Bob Dillon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:07:14pm

"Palin, though notoriously ill-travelled outside the United States, did journey far to the first of the four colleges she attended, in Hawaii."

As an aside - Hawaii (and Seattle) are like "bedroom communities" to many who work in Alaska. Hawaii is only a four hour flight due south from Anchorage. A significant number of small businesses have facilities in both locations. They winter in Hawaii and spend the rest of the year in AK.

A four hour flight to an Alaskan going somewhere is no big deal.

43 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:07:50pm

re: #40 MandyManners

Yeah, I was a card-carrying member of the CPUSA back then.

I went to one meeting of the CPUSA as an undergrad. One of my professors was a dyed-in-the-wool CommieSymp, always shilling for the USSR, etc., etc., etc. He was an asshole.

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:08:14pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

It's not really that much of a stretch: Liberal conservatism
Republicans don't have a monopoly on conservatism. Much of what they support (creationism, opposing gay marriage, economic populism, etc) has nothing at all to do with conservative principles.

Thank you.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:09:02pm

re: #32 Gus 802

As was mentioned in the article this is about identity politics. Palin embodies an ideal state for her followers and those who as you say, "[come] from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture." In this case it is a stringent test in politics with no room for the vastness of American society. Her propensity for memes are simply the vocalization of the proverbial litmus test that appeals to the minority that makes up those that identify with the Palin ideal.

Yeah. What you said. Being as I don't come from that group, I am not so charmed with her...and I don't fancy her as an American leader, since she doesn't really like most Americans very well by that standard.

46 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:09:13pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think she is, in a classic sense. I think she's bothered by people who are not like her. Todd comes from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture. I think she can't deal with people who do not share those things with her, or step out of herself, or find common ground with Americans who aren't 'her kind of people'. That's why I find the folksy patter, coming from her, so nauseating.

So she's maybe an ideologyinterestculturist. That's not a good trait in a president of VP, but it's a different thing from racism.

47 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:09:50pm

re: #43 Gang of One

I went to one meeting of the CPUSA as an undergrad. One of my professors was a dyed-in-the-wool CommieSymp, always shilling for the USSR, etc., etc., etc. He was an asshole.

Just one?

48 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:10:32pm

I understand that everyone has prejudices to some degree. This will always happen when you have diversity. The extent of the prejudice, and how we act on it is what matters.

Remember the Star Trek episode with Frank Gorshin?

Let That Be Your Last Battlefield

49 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:10:49pm

re: #34 Pepper Fox

Well we were on a pretty good track to full acceptance. Then Bush happened, and if not set us back then at least put it on hold.

How does Bush figure into the recent votes in a California referendum or in the New York senate?

50 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:10:55pm

One of our long-missing creationists just popped up in the "Thank You" thread, and imagine my surprise to find that he's also a global warming denier.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:11:28pm

re: #46 lostlakehiker

So she's maybe an ideologyinterestculturist. That's not a good trait in a president of VP, but it's a different thing from racism.

They're kissin' cousins to each other--I have no interest in branding S.P. a racist, I just want her to go away.

52 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #47 MandyManners

Just one?

Yep. Knew right away these guys were not for me. Too much America/capitalism bashing.

53 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:11:52pm

Since nobody seems to have pointed it out yet:

Palin: Uncomfortable in Hawaii due to ethnic diversity
BHO: Ethnically diverse and from Hawaii

54 Dave Brown  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:13:32pm

Off topic, but here is an interesting take by David Brooks on Obama's Afghanistan speech (it is a bit more forgiving than Charles Krauthammer's "Uncertain Trumpet"):

"The Analytic Mode"

"...The advantage of the Obama governing style is that his argument-based organization is a learning organization. Amid the torrent of memos and evidence and dispute, the Obama administration is able to adjust and respond more quickly than, say, the Bush administration ever did.

The disadvantage is the tendency to bureaucratize the war. Armed conflict is about morale, motivation, honor, fear and breaking the enemy’s will. The danger is that Obama’s analytic mode will neglect the intangibles that are the essence of the fight. It will fail to inspire and comfort. Soldiers and Marines don’t have the luxury of adopting President Obama’s calibrated stance since they are being asked to potentially sacrifice everything.

Barring a scientific breakthrough, we can’t merge Obama’s analysis with George Bush’s passion. But we should still be glad that he is governing the way he is. I loved covering the Obama campaign. But amid problems like Afghanistan and health care, it simply wouldn’t do to give gauzy speeches about the meaning of the word hope. It is in Obama’s nature to lead a government by symposium. Embrace the complexity. Learn to live with the dispassion."

Brooks: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Krauthammer: [Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

55 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:13:33pm

re: #17 Racer X

She's married to an eskimo. How can she be racist?

He doesn't wear mukluks or live in an igloo.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #53 Conservative Moonbat

Since nobody seems to have pointed it out yet:

Palin: Uncomfortable in Hawaii due to ethnic diversity
BHO: Ethnically diverse and from Hawaii

Well, yes, there is that...but I'm sure if he had gone to college in Alaska he would have been very cold and unhappy.

57 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:13:59pm

re: #30 Guanxi88

You're traveling pretty far afield from the article, and making an argument I honestly can't even follow. And it's not for lack of trying.

58 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:14:28pm

re: #53 Conservative Moonbat

Since nobody seems to have pointed it out yet:

Palin: Uncomfortable in Hawaii due to ethnic diversity
BHO: Ethnically diverse and from Hawaii

Wasn't Palin, as a caucasian, actually a minority? Wouldn't she be part of that vaunted 'ethnic diversity' thing?

59 holeinone#7@pebble  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:17:03pm

In the eyes of some native Hawaiians, Palin would in some situations be called a "howlie". This is like calling a white person a "cracker". Howlies are sometimes assaulted for being white and non Hawaiian. If Tanenhaus wants to find racism he needs to look at the congressional black caucus.

60 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:17:55pm

re: #59 holeinone#7@pebble

In the eyes of some native Hawaiians, Palin would in some situations be called a "howlie". This is like calling a white person a "cracker". Howlies are sometimes assaulted for being white and non Hawaiian. If Tanenhaus wants to find racism he needs to look at the congressional black caucus.

Since this has been brought up a second time is it OK if we reflect on Idaho?

61 tsflanagan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:01pm

The contempt for Sarah Palin is disproportionate to her shortcomings.

62 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:23pm

re: #59 holeinone#7@pebble

In the eyes of some native Hawaiians, Palin would in some situations be called a "howlie". This is like calling a white person a "cracker". Howlies are sometimes assaulted for being white and non Hawaiian. If Tanenhaus wants to find racism he needs to look at the congressional black caucus.

I grew up in Hawaii, and this is complete bullshit. You don't even know how to spell the word. It's "haole,' and it simply means "white." It's not inherently derogatory.

63 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:29pm

re: #61 tsflanagan

The contempt for Sarah Palin is disproportionate to her shortcomings.

In what respect, Charlie?

64 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Since this has been brought up a second time is it OK if we reflect on Idaho?

No you bad boy! lolol

65 Bob Dillon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:35pm

re: #55 Alouette

He doesn't wear mukluks or live in an igloo.

Igloo dwellers are found in Northern Canada.

Any igloos in Alaska are just a novelty.

66 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:49pm

I sense sock-puppetry afoot here.

67 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:18:50pm

re: #58 Gang of One

Wasn't Palin, as a caucasian, actually a minority? Wouldn't she be part of that vaunted 'ethnic diversity' thing?

Probably. On the surface it just seemed kinda ironic.

68 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:19:18pm

re: #64 Blueheron

No you bad boy! lolol

OK, I won't bring up the Aryan Nations white separatist compound that was located in Idaho.

And other "things."

69 jaunte  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #59 holeinone#7@pebble

If Tanenhaus wants to find racism he needs to look at the congressional black caucus.


Is that a Jim Quoque argument?

70 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:19:37pm

re: #57 Obdicut

You're traveling pretty far afield from the article, and making an argument I honestly can't even follow. And it's not for lack of trying.

Tanenhaus' use of the "R" word in connection with populism and populists like Palin is of a piece with his overall position as orator at the funeral of the death of conservatism.

He could make very sound objections to populists and populism without making the stretch he has in this case, but cannot do so, because these critiques would undermine the chief driving force of his so-called "Burkean conservatism," namely, the populists and populisms of the political left.

In this context, I point to his analysis of Obama as "steeped" in Burkean conservatism as evidence of a fundamental blindness to the facts of the case, and use this instance to cast light on the pointless racism charge.

71 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:19:43pm

re: #67 Conservative Moonbat

Probably. On the surface it just seemed kinda ironic.

Yes, I agree.

72 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:19:53pm

re: #61 tsflanagan

The contempt for Sarah Palin is disproportionate to her shortcomings.

No it isn't. She's anti-science, shrugs personal responsibility, has nothing but contempt for the people who put her in the spot light, she's been petty in her criticisms, and an all around poor leader. I'd say we're going easy on her.

73 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:20:09pm

re: #68 Gus 802

OK, I won't bring up the Aryan Nations white separatist compound that was located in Idaho.

And other "things."

OK I got you. Sorry .

74 tsflanagan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:20:11pm

re: #63 Obdicut

What about disproportionate do you not understand?

75 keloyd  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:20:54pm

My family lived in Hawaii for several years, and I was born there. (BTW, my birth certificate has the same nefarious title "certificate of live birth" as Barrack Obama, so either both of us or neither are secret Muslim double agents.)

That said, Hawaii is a bad place to go if you are too provincial about diversity. It's not Sesame Street. The native people are just as petty and violent as you and me. The tendency to carry a chip on one's shoulder is as bad with Asians and the indigenous people as it is with the whitest of the Birthers or Glenn Beck fans...or bloggers.

76 barflytom  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:21:03pm

Quote from Mr Tanenhaus:
"To an extent unmatched by any recent major political figure, she offers the erasure of any distinction—in skill, experience, intellect—between the governing and the governed."

He rather gives away his own prejudices with that, and even has a similar line as the sub-heading for his piece. I thought we were supposed to have a representative government, not a permanent ruling class of mandarins.

And being uncomfortable in an unfamiliar environment at age 18 makes her a racist for life ?

77 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #73 Blueheron

OK I got you. Sorry .

No problem. I thought your response was funny.

78 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #76 barflytom

And being uncomfortable in an unfamiliar environment at age 18 makes her a racist for life ?

Who said that?

The smell of straw men is getting overpowering in this thread.

79 tsflanagan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:22:02pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

Nothing like a good disagreement. I guess you think Obama was also given tough treatment.

80 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:22:33pm

re: #79 tsflanagan

Nothing like a good disagreement. I guess you think Obama was also given tough treatment.

At this blog- yes he was.

81 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:22:53pm

re: #70 Guanxi88

The racism charge is coming from her father. So I'm not understanding where you see Tanenhaus bringing it up.

re: #74 tsflanagan

What about disproportionate do you not understand?

I don't understand how it's disproportionate, unless you mean far too many people see her as somehow a good leader.

82 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #78 Charles

Who said that?

The smell of straw men is getting overpowering in this thread.

A little hayfever. We should see if we can work creationism, AGW, and nirth certifikat into it. Bring 'em all out.

83 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:24:02pm

Off Topic But Hilarious:

50 Best Protest Signs

84 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

At this blog- yes he was.

And is.

85 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:24:32pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

A little hayfever. We should see if we can work creationism, AGW, and nirth certifikat into it. Bring 'em all out.

This thread is going to get very interesting very soon. Maybe I should run out for a bottle of good sake and start drinking early.

86 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #81 Obdicut

The racism charge is coming from her father. So I'm not understanding where you see Tanenhaus bringing it up.

re: #74 tsflanagan

I don't understand how it's disproportionate, unless you mean far too many people see her as somehow a good leader.

Her father pointed to the fact she was uncomfortable in the presence of so many Asians and Pacific Islanders. he did not accuse her of racism. Tanenhaus was clever enough not to do so directly, but simply pointed this out and then led into a broader discussion of the racism he finds at the root of some of the appeal of populism.

87 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:26:18pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

Her father pointed to the fact she was uncomfortable in the presence of so many Asians and Pacific Islanders. he did not accuse her of racism. Tanenhaus was clever enough not to do so directly, but simply pointed this out and then led into a broader discussion of the racism he finds at the root of some of the appeal of populism.

And he's right. There's undeniably a large element of racism in current populist politics as practiced by people like Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and countless other right wing demagogues.

88 Altermite  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:27:00pm

I'm smelling more of a cultural shock problem from her dad's comment than actual racism. Many people undergo that sort of problem when they go somewhere new.

That said, someone who experiences cultural shock without even leaving the country probably shouldn't be representing or leading the United States.

89 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:27:09pm

re: #85 Gang of One

This thread is going to get very interesting very soon. Maybe I should run out for a bottle of good sake and start drinking early.

Ech! Sake! Gimme a bottle of Gekkikan's Plum wine anyday, but never sake. Creeps up on you, on cat's paws, that stuff.

90 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:27:39pm

re: #78 Charles

Ridi Pagliaccio

91 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:28:25pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

Well, it's pretty undeniable that racism is often used as a populist tool, so I'm not sure what your problem is with that.

And being uncomfortable around so many people of a different culture is, well, bigoted. They're people. It may be challenging to learn the social cues and deal with them, but that's what an open-minded person does, not run away because they're too different.

If someone is not comfortable in a situation where they are not part of the cultural majority, I have no idea how to interpret that other than bigotry. Perhaps you could offer a theory?

92 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #36 Gang of One

"A dream deferred is a dream denied." - -- Langston Hughes

93 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #91 Obdicut


If someone is not comfortable in a situation where they are not part of the cultural majority, I have no idea how to interpret that other than bigotry. Perhaps you could offer a theory?

So, it's been American blacks who have been the bigots all this time?

95 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:31:13pm

re: #89 Guanxi88

Ech! Sake! Gimme a bottle of Gekkikan's Plum wine anyday, but never sake. Creeps up on you, on cat's paws, that stuff.

Precisely.
/Kampai!!!

96 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:32:08pm

re: #93 SixDegrees

So, it's been American blacks who have been the bigots all this time?

I don't think blacks' problems could be summed up as just not being part of the cultural majority, no. That's not a very apt comparison.

And I don't think they've just been 'uncomfortable', either, for much of American history.

97 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:32:26pm

re: #92 Pepper Fox

"A dream deferred is a dream denied." - -- Langston Hughes

Like justice delayed is justice denied?
I get it now.
//

98 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:32:28pm

re: #87 Charles

And he's right. There's undeniably an large element of racism in current populist politics as practiced by people like Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and countless other right wing demagogues.

So, as a populist, she's a presumptive racist, or is it as a racist, she's a presumptive populist?

Look, Tanenhaus chose the cheap and easy shot here. He could critique Palin and other populists all day long without dragging race into it, but he didn't, in this case, for the very simple reason that populism, as that of which he disapproves, cannot be consistent with "Burkean conservatism," of which he approves.

I repeat - Tanenhaus cannot critique populism on Burkean grounds because to do so would expose that his "Burkean conservatism" is simply moderated leftism. Hence, he drags race into it.

99 Altermite  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:32:41pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Well, it's pretty undeniable that racism is often used as a populist tool, so I'm not sure what your problem is with that.

And being uncomfortable around so many people of a different culture is, well, bigoted. They're people. It may be challenging to learn the social cues and deal with them, but that's what an open-minded person does, not run away because they're too different.

If someone is not comfortable in a situation where they are not part of the cultural majority, I have no idea how to interpret that other than bigotry. Perhaps you could offer a theory?

Culture shock is pretty common for many people on visiting a new area, but generally not the result of bigotry. I felt pretty uncomfortable among locals for a month or two after I moved from the US. Local customs, attitudes and habits can be very different in a new location, and it can take a while to adjust to them.

100 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:33:57pm

re: #96 Obdicut

I don't think blacks' problems could be summed up as just not being part of the cultural majority, no. That's not a very apt comparison.

And I don't think they've just been 'uncomfortable', either, for much of American history.

Oh. I was simply responding to your statement

If someone is not comfortable in a situation where they are not part of the cultural majority, I have no idea how to interpret that other than bigotry. Perhaps you could offer a theory?

I'd suggest that blacks, for much of the last couple centuries in America, anyway, have been 1) not part of the cultural minority and 2) very uncomfortable, at a number of levels.

101 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:34:06pm

re: #99 Altermite

Yes, but you adjusted to it, you took the time and the effort to overcome the culture shock. That's rather different.

102 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:34:31pm

Going for that sake. BBIAB.
/Mateh kudesai ...

103 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:35:24pm

re: #100 SixDegrees

Okay. Again, I don't see it as at all an apt comparison, or a useful one.

104 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:35:56pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Well, it's pretty undeniable that racism is often used as a populist tool, so I'm not sure what your problem is with that.

He's not arguing that it's a tool of populism. He notes that the racist character of the leadership and their message is part of their appeal.

And being uncomfortable around so many people of a different culture is, well, bigoted. They're people. It may be challenging to learn the social cues and deal with them, but that's what an open-minded person does, not run away because they're too different.

I dunno. I imagine that there are many people who find themselves uncomfortable if they are in the cultural and ethnic minority.

If someone is not comfortable in a situation where they are not part of the cultural majority, I have no idea how to interpret that other than bigotry. Perhaps you could offer a theory?

Would you attribute bigotry to a Black man who finds himself uncomfortable living in, say, small-town Idaho after ahving lived in Detroit all his life?

105 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:36:16pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Okay. Again, I don't see it as at all an apt comparison, or a useful one.

Well, you're the one who made it. If you're withdrawing it, that's fine.

106 Bloodnok  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:36:23pm

re: #102 Gang of One

Going for that sake. BBIAB.
/Mateh kudesai ...

King Crimson - Matte Kudesai

107 Altermite  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:36:58pm

re: #101 Obdicut

Yes, but you adjusted to it, you took the time and the effort to overcome the culture shock. That's rather different.

All that means is that Palin quit and I didn't. Doesn't make her a racist, just a quitter. But thats nothing we didn't know already.

108 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:37:30pm

One of the things to keep in mind about todays right-wing populism is that Americans have been taking lessons from the europeans for a number of years now- see here. Even Stacy McCain says he's an agent of the vlaams belang.

Besides the LGF archives, a great source for information on european fascism is Øyvind Strømmen, who is also a registered member of LGF, btw.

109 avanti  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:38:23pm

O.T. Tiger Woods voice-mail, extended version.

link.

110 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:38:55pm

re: #104 Guanxi88

Would you attribute bigotry to a Black man who finds himself uncomfortable living in, say, small-town Idaho after ahving lived in Detroit all his life?

Why do you feel that's an apt comparison? I'm really not getting how this is at all similar to the experience of American blacks.

I dunno. I imagine that there are many people who find themselves uncomfortable if they are in the cultural and ethnic minority.

We're not talking about the Bushmen of the Khalahari. It's Hawaii. They're Americans.

He's not arguing that it's a tool of populism. He notes that the racist character of the leadership and their message is part of their appeal.

And that's perfectly true, so I'm not really understanding your argument.

111 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:39:57pm

re: #107 Altermite

Heh. Fair enough. Either bigotry or lack of willpower.

112 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:40:11pm

re: #32 Gus 802

As was mentioned in the article this is about identity politics. Palin embodies an ideal state for her followers and those who as you say, "[come] from her own background, and shares her ideology and interests and culture." In this case it is a stringent test in politics with no room for the vastness of American society..

Not only that, it's a test which is profoundly unamerican in its assumptions and motivations: it's about defining a large segment of America (the majority, of it, in fact) as "not the real America", somehow illegitimate. Cf those comments about "Real Virginians", etc ("McCain is winning in the Real Virginia!"*)

here's a reminder from last year about Palin's feelings:
Palin Explains What Parts of America Aren't "Pro-America"

We believe that the best of America is not all in Washington, D.C. We believe" -- here the audience interrupted Palin with applause and cheers -- "We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation.

Funny how these people who love to promote the notion of a "real America" always assume that they're part of it, huh?

* Nancy Pfwhats-it, McCain advisor

113 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #110 Obdicut

Let it drift. We're arguing about arguments and meta-stuff. Fun, but not germane.

114 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

One of the things to keep in mind about todays right-wing populism is that Americans have been taking lessons from the europeans for a number of years now- see here. Even Stacy McCain says he's an agent of the vlaams belang.

Besides the LGF archives, a great source for information on european fascism is Øyvind Strømmen, who is also a registered member of LGF, btw.

And note, too, that the same pattern we see at work in Europe can be instituted here, unless a vigorous and robust opposition to the fascists works hand-in-hand with other elements of the American right. If these SOB's get to be the opposition, then I might very well find myself forced to the left, or even out of political life altogether.

115 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:44:02pm

re: #61 tsflanagan

The contempt adulation for Sarah Palin is disproportionate to her shortcomings. abilities and achievements.

That's better.

116 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:45:39pm

re: #106 Bloodnok

King Crimson - Matte Kudesai


[Video]

Excellent.

Thanks!

117 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:47:44pm

re: #115 iceweasel


The contempt adulation for Sarah PalinBarack Obama is disproportionate to her shortcomings his abilities and achievements.

That's better.

118 webevintage  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #2 Teh Flowah

This feels tenuous, reaching, shakey. The parts I would have bolded are...

"First of four colleges" are you kidding me?
"Part Yupik Eskimo" That sounds like people who say IM NOT RACIST, SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE BLACK.

and I even let them use my bathroom...
/

119 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #115 iceweasel

The contempt adulation for Sarah Palin Barack Obama is disproportionate to her his shortcomings. abilities and achievements.

That's better.

Betterer.

120 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:48:41pm

re: #114 Guanxi88

And note, too, that the same pattern we see at work in Europe can be instituted here, unless a vigorous and robust opposition to the fascists works hand-in-hand with other elements of the American right. If these SOB's get to be the opposition, then I might very well find myself forced to the left, or even out of political life altogether.

THey're already doing the same thing here. In europe, the moderate right parties are demonized by the fascists, and here we have RINO hunting.

I do think this is temporary, as American politics has a tendency to self-correct after awhile. We have a way of staying centralized overall. This strategy is failing, and more reasonable people will come forward as the election draws near... I hope.

121 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #117 soxfan4life

The contempt adulation for Sarah PalinBarack Obama is disproportionate to her shortcomings his abilities and achievements.

Heh. Too slow again.

122 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:49:19pm

He father makes a vague comment and now she's a racist, despite he being married to someone part native American and all her children sharing those genetics?
I'm no Palin fan, but this is really quite a stretch.

123 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:51:03pm

Sarah Palin seems like a nice enough person, flawed though she may be. But even before the revelations of the last 6 months, she was toast as a national office holder. Everything we have learned SINCE the election is basically throwing more dirt on the pile.

And the people who still take her seriously may be future Darwin Award winners.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #88 Altermite

I'm smelling more of a cultural shock problem from her dad's comment than actual racism. Many people undergo that sort of problem when they go somewhere new.

That said, someone who experiences cultural shock without even leaving the country probably shouldn't be representing or leading the United States.

Cultural shock's fine. I experienced cultural shock when I went to college. I got over it.

That said, I just don't see Palin as someone who's real interested in the bigger world.

125 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:51:56pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

I'd point out that any real opposition to these guys has to come from the Right.

Consider the case this way - mainstream political movements can tolerate wide diversity of opinion and still serve as cohesive expressions of political tendencies of their nations. Revolutionary movements, however, cannot; by their very nature, they seek to overthrow the order of things, and so their participation in non-revolutionary politics must be understood merely as a sort of tactical move, a way to get their foot in the door.

The American left dealt with the revolutionaries on its fringes by largely taming and co-opting them, to the extent that former bomb-tossers and anarchists are now the subject of a certain amount of hagiography and even a sort of sly and ironic idolization (witness the Che shirts, the iconography harking back to Mao et al). The American left now faces revolutionaries on its right flank. What will be done with and about them is yet to be seen.

126 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:52:19pm

Good afternoon, lizards.
How's everyone?

127 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:53:58pm

re: #125 Guanxi88

I'd point out that any real opposition to these guys has to come from the Right.

Consider the case this way - mainstream political movements can tolerate wide diversity of opinion and still serve as cohesive expressions of political tendencies of their nations. Revolutionary movements, however, cannot; by their very nature, they seek to overthrow the order of things, and so their participation in non-revolutionary politics must be understood merely as a sort of tactical move, a way to get their foot in the door.

The American left dealt with the revolutionaries on its fringes by largely taming and co-opting them, to the extent that former bomb-tossers and anarchists are now the subject of a certain amount of hagiography and even a sort of sly and ironic idolization (witness the Che shirts, the iconography harking back to Mao et al). The American left right now faces revolutionaries on its right flank. What will be done with and about them is yet to be seen.

Dammit!

128 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:54:22pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist


That said, I just don't see Palin as someone who's real interested in the bigger world.

The feeling's mutual, I'm sure.

129 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:54:59pm

And now I'm being accused of being a "bigot" in the 'Thank You' thread, just like clockwork, for pointing out that a raving AGW denier is a creationist.

130 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:56:36pm

re: #126 Irish Rose

Good, how are you, and how is your Marine?

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:56:45pm

re: #128 Guanxi88

The feeling's mutual, I'm sure.

Which, once again, is OK. You can live your whole life in a little town in Alaska and enjoy it, and be a good person, and all that jazz. What raises my hackles about Palin is when she goes on the road with this "We're more American than THEM" show for fun and profit.

132 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:56:56pm

re: #129 Charles

And now I'm being accused of being a "bigot" in the 'Thank You' thread, just like clockwork, for pointing out that a raving AGW denier is a creationist.

I don't even see how that's controversial. As a creationist (YE or otherwise), you'd be inclined to view the planetary thermostat as firmly under the control of the Almighty. Consequently, you couldn't even consider any other possibilities.

133 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:57:00pm

Right Wing Populism

Right–wing populism can act as both a precursor and a building block of fascism, with anti–elitist conspiracism and ethnocentric scapegoating as shared elements. The dynamic of right–wing populism interacting with and facilitating fascism in interwar Germany was chronicled by Peter Fritzsche in Rehearsals for Fascism: Populism and Political Mobilization in Weimar Germany. Fritzsche showed that distressed middle–class populists in Weimar launched bitter attacks against both the government and big business

134 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #104 Guanxi88

Would you attribute bigotry to a Black man who finds himself uncomfortable living in, say, small-town Idaho after ahving lived in Detroit all his life?

How would he know what is expected? There are endless unwritten rules to any culture. If you're from outside that culture, you have to feel your way and you have to be alert to the nonverbal cues signaling that you've transgressed such a rule.

This walking on eggs is a burden for anyone and naturally leads to some discomfort.

Being out in the wider world can be exhilarating, enlightening, scary, genuinely dangerous in some places, ---but it's always less comfortable than an old shoe or the culture you've already assimilated to.

135 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:58:33pm

re: #133 Sharmuta

Right Wing Populism

It's a class warfare thing. The ethnic component is just an artifact of social factors and human nature.

See: Ethnic Chinese minority in Vietnam, for an example from the left of the same phenomenon.

136 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 12:59:31pm

re: #134 lostlakehiker

How would he know what is expected? There are endless unwritten rules to any culture. If you're from outside that culture, you have to feel your way and you have to be alert to the nonverbal cues signaling that you've transgressed such a rule.

This walking on eggs is a burden for anyone and naturally leads to some discomfort.

Being out in the wider world can be exhilarating, enlightening, scary, genuinely dangerous in some places, ---but it's always less comfortable than an old shoe or the culture you've already assimilated to.

Bingo! And Palin didn't pack the tackle to hack it. So she quit.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:00:14pm

re: #135 Guanxi88

It's a class warfare thing. The ethnic component is just an artifact of social factors and human nature.

See: Ethnic Chinese minority in Vietnam, for an example from the left of the same phenomenon.

Exactly what class do these folks consider themselves to be?

138 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:01:21pm

re: #129 Charles

And now I'm being accused of being a "bigot" in the 'Thank You' thread, just like clockwork, for pointing out that a raving AGW denier is a creationist.

Sad... but I'm sure that you're no longer suprised by this kind of thing Charles.
And I'm reasonably sure that the "b" word is not going to dissuade you from calling it like you see it, any time soon.

139 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:01:26pm

part of the reason for my climate skepticism has been the political nature of the debate. so yesterday I read a story in either Newsweek or Time about the glaciers in the Himalayas and how their damage will affect 3 billion people who depend on the water supply for their lives. nuclear armed nations competing for survival in an arid age. The implications are staggering. that was from a scientist, not a politician. 3 billion lives is half the planet ...

140 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:02:46pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly what class do these folks consider themselves to be?

That's easy - they're middle-class, like everybody else.

People poorer than they are deserve their poverty as punishment for their lack of industry and thrift.

People richer than they are got that way by exploiting the middle class.

It's class-conflict with racial undertones.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:04:17pm

re: #140 Guanxi88

That's easy - they're middle-class, like everybody else.

People poorer than they are deserve their poverty as punishment for their lack of industry and thrift.

People richer than they are got that way by exploiting the middle class.

It's class-conflict with racial undertones.

Yeah, and people like me who actually have less money than these folks are still eeelites, because we're not like them in some way or other...

142 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:05:15pm

BTW, there were several lizards praying for my Marine on Friday and I want to thank you all for your concern. He doesn't have a blood clot in the leg, but he did tear his calf muscle severely and has a big hematoma. If the tear doesn't improve with a couple of days of bedrest, they're going to have to do surgery.

143 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #140 Guanxi88

People richer than they are got that way by exploiting the middle class.

I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward the wealthy.

144 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:06:07pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

Which, once again, is OK. You can live your whole life in a little town in Alaska and enjoy it, and be a good person, and all that jazz. What raises my hackles about Palin is when she goes on the road with this "We're more American than THEM" show for fun and profit.

Palin's whole schtick is the politics of victimhood and resentment. She rang that bell as loud as she could during the campaign, and post-campaign she's apparently been crafting and perfecting the tale of Saint Sarah, Martyr of Wasilla. If we're not hearing about how horrible it is that David Letterman told a stupid joke about her daughter, she's raving on her facebook page about a previously unheard of blogger who speculates on her marriage -- thereby ensuring that everyone knows about the mean and terrible things being said.

That's her whole purpose: she appeals to resentful people, she stokes resentment, and she portrays herself as a victim at every possible turn. If people did not attack Palin she would have to invent their attacks (and sometimes she does).

145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:06:08pm

re: #142 Irish Rose

That is good news then, right? Blood clots are baaad mojo.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:06:17pm

re: #142 Irish Rose

BTW, there were several lizards praying for my Marine on Friday and I want to thank you all for your concern. He doesn't have a blood clot in the leg, but he did tear his calf muscle severely and has a big hematoma. If the tear doesn't improve with a couple of days of bedrest, they're going to have to do surgery.

Big hug for you and the Marine. My dad went through that not long ago. Best of luck with not having to do the surgery.

147 Big Steve  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:06:18pm

Let me start with I do not ever plan to vote for Sarah Palin due to her stand on creationism. However, one of the things I thought we were all trying to get past was our "model" of what a great leader should be...i.e. white, male, East Coast educated, well traveled, impeccable spouse, 2.3 children...etc. That a person felt uncomfortable around different people at 18 or whether they did cocaine at 18 bothers me not the least.

148 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:06:21pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, and people like me who actually have less money than these folks are still eeelites, because we're not like them in some way or other...

My in-laws still do not accept that I'm neither personally wealthy, nor do I come from a wealthy family. There's always that "Are you SURE?" air about them.

See, these folk have begun to collapse or elide class into race. A lot of what they think is race-based is in fact class-based, and vice-versa.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:07:04pm

re: #143 Soap_Man

I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward the wealthy.

No, it doesn't, unless the person is politically and culturally on their side. The contempt for wealthy liberal people is off the charts.

150 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:07:29pm

re: #143 Soap_Man

I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward the wealthy.

Nope, and we see that at work in the deranged ravings about the Fed and international banking and so forth that always mark these folks' events and literature. They're economic populists, but NOT socialists.

151 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:07:50pm

re: #142 Irish Rose

BTW, there were several lizards praying for my Marine on Friday and I want to thank you all for your concern. He doesn't have a blood clot in the leg, but he did tear his calf muscle severely and has a big hematoma. If the tear doesn't improve with a couple of days of bedrest, they're going to have to do surgery.

Thoughts and prayers to you both ...

152 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:10:45pm

I see Charles has been conversing with andrewbreitbart on twitter this morning.

153 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:10:49pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it doesn't, unless the person is politically and culturally on their side. The contempt for wealthy liberal people is off the charts.

So with this adjustment, would the statement be more accurate? "I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward wealthy white conservatives."

154 blueraven  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:11:12pm

I don't think Sam T said populism=racism, only that race is often a subtext of populism. A point on which I would agree.

As far as Ms Palin feeling uncomfortable in Hawaii, fair enough, but one has to either deal with it by making friends, trying to understand the culture and appreciating it for what it is.

On the other hand if you feel like you are a victim, which she undeniably has done on numerous other occasions, you are more likely to dig in, blame others for your own inability to adapt, and perhaps develop a long term grievance against those who don't conform to your own ideals.

155 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:11:42pm

re: #145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That is good news then, right? Blood clots are baaad mojo.

Yes they are.

156 AK-47%  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:11:53pm

I lived in two neighborhoods in Gary, Indiana that turned over from all-white to predominantly black within months over "blockbusting" tactics: white people fled in panic as soon as the first blacks moved in.

In each case, my mom, a widower, could not afford to join the flight right away, so we stuck it out and noticed a pattern. The first black family to move in was every white families' nightmare: unruly kids, straying dogs, a sudden rise in bicycle thefts, tire marks on neighbors lawns and wine bottles discarded about the neighborhood.

All the susbequent families turned out to be fine folks and nice neighbors.

But the real estate company had turned over an entire block, probably making record profits, in less than a year.

And I well imagine it is people like those who fled those neighborhoods in terror who still live in fear of "the n*** taking over" (I noticed that LGF automatically amends the n-word withou me even having to do so) are the very folks who have a visceral loathing of Obama and are very susceptible to the only slightly hidden racist undertones of people like Beck and Palin.

157 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:12:41pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I see Charles has been conversing with andrewbreitbart on twitter this morning.

Surprise! Looks like a one-way conversation with Andrew doing all the Tweeting.

158 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:13:44pm

re: #153 Soap_Man

So with this adjustment, would the statement be more accurate? "I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward wealthy white conservatives."

Closer; I'd imagine the race of the conservative making the money wouldn't be a primary or even secondary concern.

159 MisterCookie  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:14:14pm

Despite my best attempts, I keep accidentally checking drudge report for news. I'm going to have to add it to the hosts file soon if this keeps up.

160 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:14:54pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Heh, I just noticed that. I think he's looking for some attention. I wish somebody would ask him about the background image on his twiiter page. Is he going to protest against Obama with Code Pink and the Paulians?

161 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:15:14pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I see Charles has been conversing with andrewbreitbart on twitter this morning.

That's not me over there, BTW. I deleted my twitter account this morning because of the stalkers.

162 jvic  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:15:28pm

IMO the most devastating thing in that piece is the negative comparison to Truman's and Reagan's self-educations. Decades ago I read a bio (Merle Miller's?) of Truman and was astonished at how widely HST had read.

(OT: Tanenhaus notes Reagan's spending, but he neglects to mention that Reagan regretted the deficit in his Farewell Address.)

Tanenhaus on the Palin book tour:

She is avoiding major cities in the Northeast and on the West Coast, a pointed assertion of her contempt for metropolitan élites.

Well, la dee da. I defer to no one in disappointment with Palin, but I don't think much of our pretentious metropolitan élites either.

163 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:15:45pm

re: #156 ralphieboy

I lived in two neighborhoods in Gary, Indiana that turned over from all-white to predominantly black within months over "blockbusting" tactics: white people fled in panic as soon as the first blacks moved in.

In each case, my mom, a widower, could not afford to join the flight right away, so we stuck it out and noticed a pattern. The first black family to move in was every white families' nightmare: unruly kids, straying dogs, a sudden rise in bicycle thefts, tire marks on neighbors lawns and wine bottles discarded about the neighborhood.

All the susbequent families turned out to be fine folks and nice neighbors.

But the real estate company had turned over an entire block, probably making record profits, in less than a year.

And I well imagine it is people like those who fled those neighborhoods in terror who still live in fear of "the n*** taking over" (I noticed that LGF automatically amends the n-word withou me even having to do so) are the very folks who have a visceral loathing of Obama and are very susceptible to the only slightly hidden racist undertones of people like Beck and Palin.


diversity is a concept that gets a bad rap. embracing it is essential for survival in the 21st century.

164 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:16:08pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it doesn't, unless the person is politically and culturally on their side. The contempt for wealthy liberal people is off the charts.

Very true. It works like this:
Wingnut: Rich limousine libs have trust funds and know nothing of the world!
(Unless the family name is Bush; then inherited wealth and family connections and Ivy league degrees are good.)

Wingnut: We love self-made men who created their wealth! Capitalism! Entrepeneurial spirit! Rah!
(Unless the family name is Soros; then it's bad.)
Etc.

165 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:17:02pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Heh, I just noticed that. I think he's looking for some attention. I wish somebody would ask him about the background image on his twiiter page. Is he going to protest against Obama with Code Pink and the Paulians?

Obama with a helmet? Probably, now that they're slowly drifting towards make Afghanistan "Obama's War." I'm sure they're hoping for failure for cynical reasons.

166 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:17:19pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

That's not me over there, BTW. I deleted my twitter account this morning because of the stalkers.

I figured that.

167 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:17:23pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

That's not me over there, BTW. I deleted my twitter account this morning because of the stalkers.

Stalking your tweets, how fucking pathetic.

168 AK-47%  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:18:02pm

Of course we pick on Sarah for being underqualified. Granted, Alaska is the largest state in area, but its population is less than that of Phoenix, Arizona. Would we nominate the mayor of Phoenix?

And her education is perhaps above-average on the American scale of things, but would we nominate a Community College professor?

I think not. She was chosen for ideological reasons, and the ideology behind her being chosen was quite clear.

We can take the ideology to task, we can take her lifestyle to task, but the lady is clearly not qualified to put her a hearbeat away from leadership of this country.

169 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:18:12pm

re: #158 Guanxi88

To be honest, I don't many "right-wing populists" so I'm not that familiar with it, at least not on a personal level.

I live in Chicago, so most of my friends are liberals in their 20's. But I work in a very wealthy suburb. Most of the people there are conservatives and most of them are wealthy, or at least upper-middle class.

170 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:18:15pm

re: #167 Irish Rose

They're using a twitter account as a fake me. I never used my twitter account.

171 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:18:46pm

re: #169 Soap_Man

I don't KNOW many, that should say.

172 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:19:04pm

re: #164 iceweasel

All of which goes to one of the things about my way of thinking that sorta distinguishes me from many of my fellows on the right: I see these commonalities of our ruling classes, note them as recurrent throughout human history, and am prepared to overlook their shortfalls and even embrace their traditions, provided they further the cause of humanity or at the very least do not impede our progress and survival.

I suppose I've got a deep sympathy for aristocracy at heart, and acknowledge it even in the mutilated forms it takes today.

173 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:20:05pm

re: #164 iceweasel

Very true. It works like this:
Wingnut: Rich limousine libs have trust funds and know nothing of the world!
(Unless the family name is Bush; then inherited wealth and family connections and Ivy league degrees are good.)

Wingnut: We love self-made men who created their wealth! Capitalism! Entrepeneurial spirit! Rah!
(Unless the family name is Soros; then it's bad.)
Etc.

So ideology trumps wealth. Take T Boone Pickens. When he was part of the Swiftboating he was accepted as one of them. The moment he started talking about alternative energy and wind power he was not one of them. So we've seen the opposite ends with Pickens. With Soros it remains rather static.

174 Irish Rose  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:20:23pm

re: #170 Sharmuta

They're using a twitter account as a fake me. I never used my twitter account.

I have no use for twitter, never have used it and never will.

175 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:20:33pm

re: #164 iceweasel


Wingnut: We love self-made men who created their wealth! Capitalism! Entrepeneurial spirit! Rah!
(Unless the family name is Soros; then it's bad.)
Etc.

Why do you admire Soros so much?

176 AK-47%  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:21:04pm

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

diversity is a concept that gets a bad rap. embracing it is essential for survival in the 21st century.


I should be Mr Resentment, I grew up a minority (white) in a predominantly black city with a black mayor. I was discriminated against for being white. But I am not and I have little patience with racists who have never lived any nearer to a black family than on the proverbial other Side of the Railroad Tracks.

177 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:22:02pm

re: #169 Soap_Man

To be honest, I don't many "right-wing populists" so I'm not that familiar with it, at least not on a personal level.

I live in Chicago, so most of my friends are liberals in their 20's. But I work in a very wealthy suburb. Most of the people there are conservatives and most of them are wealthy, or at least upper-middle class.

Rightist populists are a whole other kettle of fish. Spooky stuff, to be sure. The recent Tea Party brouhaha was largely a product of right-populism. Dig back through here and there for a good peek at what was going on. The overwhelming majority of TP folks weren't necessarily right-populists, but there were enough there in evidence to give you an idea of what they look like.

I'm in Texas, so we got plenty of specimens.

178 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:22:08pm

re: #139 _RememberTonyC

part of the reason for my climate skepticism has been the political nature of the debate. so yesterday I read a story in either Newsweek or Time about the glaciers in the Himalayas and how their damage will affect 3 billion people who depend on the water supply for their lives. nuclear armed nations competing for survival in an arid age. The implications are staggering. that was from a scientist, not a politician. 3 billion lives is half the planet ...

Well, there are technical measures that can be taken to ameliorate things. Build dams. Dams are dammed expensive :-) but they do serve to impound water that would otherwise run off before it could be used.

So the actual damage is not the lives of the three billion, but the lives of the hundreds who may die in the construction, the thousands or tens of thousands whose lives will be thrown out of kilter by being displaced, and the moderate impact on the billions who will have to ante up to fund the dams.

Yes, these glaciers, as with most glaciers (exception, New Zealand), are in serious retreat.

179 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

I should be Mr Resentment, I grew up a minority (white) in a predominantly black city with a black mayor. I was discriminated against for being white. But I am not and I have little patience with racists who have never lived any nearer to a black family than on the proverbial other Side of the Railroad Tracks.

good job Ralphie ... you've walked a mile in the other guy's shoes and you "get it."

180 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:26:31pm

re: #173 Gus 802

So ideology trumps wealth. Take T Boone Pickens. When he was part of the Swiftboating he was accepted as one of them. The moment he started talking about alternative energy and wind power he was not one of them. So we've seen the opposite ends with Pickens. With Soros it remains rather static.

It's because Pickens served some purpose to the Right at one time. Soros, never yet.

181 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:26:45pm

OT: I don't know how many football fans we have here, but the Saints rallied from 10 back with 8 minutes left to force overtime, and my local Fox station decided to cut to the stupid Dallas/NYGiants game.

182 recusancy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:27:12pm

re: #169 Soap_Man

To be honest, I don't many "right-wing populists" so I'm not that familiar with it, at least not on a personal level.

I live in Chicago, so most of my friends are liberals in their 20's. But I work in a very wealthy suburb. Most of the people there are conservatives and most of them are wealthy, or at least upper-middle class.

You can be an wealthy and upper class and be an angry populist. See Rick Santelli.

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:28:08pm

re: #181 Soap_Man

OT: I don't know how many football fans we have here, but the Saints rallied from 10 back with 8 minutes left to force overtime, and my local Fox station decided to cut to the stupid Dallas/NYGiants game.

I'm a Dallas fan, and I'd not be happy. This is a great game!

184 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:28:13pm

Classic. GOP derided, ridiculed, and criticized Obama's attempt to bring the Olympic summer games to Chicago early this year.

Fast forward to December:

Rudy [Giuliani] Takes Security Consulting Job For Rio Olympics

HT lawhawk

185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:28:49pm

re: #181 Soap_Man

Sympathy ding.

186 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:30:11pm

re: #180 Guanxi88

It's because Pickens served some purpose to the Right at one time. Soros, never yet.

Correct. You think there would be some kind of loyalty towards Pickens given his past work that I mentioned. Or perhaps they would see him as a reason to re-think their opinions on alternative energy if he were seen as a role model.

187 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:30:23pm

re: #182 recusancy

You can be an wealthy and upper class and be an angry populist. See Rick Santelli.

Santelli I take to be one who seeks to lead or direct the populists, but, naturally, he remains a member of the elite.

188 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:30:28pm

re: #184 Gus 802

They're going to need a buttload of security in Rio. Not as much as if it were in Chicago? but they're gonna need a buttload of security in Rio.

189 recusancy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:30:59pm

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

diversity is a concept that gets a bad rap. embracing it is essential for survival in the 21st century.

Where does diversity get a bad rap?

190 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:31:03pm

re: #181 Soap_Man

OT: I don't know how many football fans we have here, but the Saints rallied from 10 back with 8 minutes left to force overtime, and my local Fox station decided to cut to the stupid Dallas/NYGiants game.

Not on my channel thank goodness. What a game!

aaah! a bird just flew into my window...gotta check!

191 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:31:20pm

re: #186 Gus 802

Correct. You think there would be some kind of loyalty towards Pickens given his past work that I mentioned. Or perhaps they would see him as a reason to re-think their opinions on alternative energy if he were seen as a role model.

The dismiss the Pickens plan as a cynical bid to up the value of his investments in these sectors, which I think it is. I also think it's worth considering, too. A man can propose a perfectly valid idea for base motives.

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:31:41pm

re: #190 Stanley Sea

Speaking of bad mojo...

193 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:32:04pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I see Charles has been conversing with andrewbreitbart on twitter this morning.

"Conversing" is a polite (and multisyllabic) word for what breitbart does on twitter, when he's not doing it on raving voicemails to gawker, etc.

They don't call him breitblart for nuthin'.

194 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:32:45pm

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of bad mojo...

Seriously...he's nowhere to be found. At least I'm not watching the Cardinals or something.

195 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:32:48pm

re: #188 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They're going to need a buttload of security in Rio. Not as much as if it were in Chicago? but they're gonna need a buttload of security in Rio.

Not sure what the international security requirements would be in Rio. Off hand I would say ordinary crimes would be high on the list. My cousin is in Rio now and she has a body guard and the works. Her husband works for an international firm. As far as terrorism in Rio I think they security risk there would be higher in that regard compared to Chicago.

196 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:32:57pm

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of bad mojo...

No, that's good luck. In Haiti. - Caddyshack.

197 Buck  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:33:42pm

I just want to say that my father would not know anything about me at that time in my life.

Any answer he would give, would be what he would have felt. There is no way for him to know how I felt.

198 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:34:12pm

re: #175 Alouette

Why do you admire Soros so much?

Where in my comment does it say I admire him?

199 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:34:44pm

re: #189 recusancy

Where does diversity get a bad rap?

in certain pockets of the population I believe it does get a bad rap. I'm not saying diversity doesn't have plenty of support ... it should and does. But some people dislike change ... a lot.

200 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:36:03pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

I went school in an area rough as all hell from 11-16 and studied with a majority of "minority" pupils, what you learn is that everyone from all backgrounds has the same problems at that age love, loss, finding one subject harder than another (and on.).

However - the respect and deep love one develops for people your own age learning in a second language who have been chased out of their own country at gunpoint and atleast one dead parent is un-ending.

When you realise precisely how much worse other people have it in their home countries the "poor oppressed christian white majority of UK/US" meme has no weight with me what so ever. If I were not a Gent i'd frankly spit in the eye of anyone trying to play it.

201 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:36:05pm

re: #191 Guanxi88

The dismiss the Pickens plan as a cynical bid to up the value of his investments in these sectors, which I think it is. I also think it's worth considering, too. A man can propose a perfectly valid idea for base motives.

And that's ironic. That they would cynically criticize Pickens because he has a financial (i.e. free-market, capitalist) interest in the proposal. I thought that's how it worked? Why should it matter if he stands to profit if he in the end plays an important role in finding a means to an end?

202 cliffster  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:36:58pm

re: #181 Soap_Man

OT: I don't know how many football fans we have here, but the Saints rallied from 10 back with 8 minutes left to force overtime, and my local Fox station decided to cut to the stupid Dallas/NYGiants game.

Fine by me. I would have been very sad if they hadn't switched to the Cowboys/Giants.

203 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:38:21pm

BBL

204 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:42:16pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I see Charles has been conversing with andrewbreitbart on twitter this morning.

I notice that Breitbart says he was a "friend" of mine -- after he sent a long, ranting email full of insults, because I posted his public Twitter comment.

That's not exactly how I picture "friends" acting.

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:43:02pm

re: #153 Soap_Man

So with this adjustment, would the statement be more accurate? "I always felt that right-wing populism was still very pro-capitalism and takes a "good for them" attitude toward wealthy white conservatives."

I'm sure they mostly feel OK about wealthy non-white conservatives, although people's mileage may vary.

Also, you can be rich, and very powerful, without being considered an elite, if you play it just right. Witness Rush Limbaugh. This is the political inverse side of the girls from wealthy families who would insist that they were oppressed by our university because they were people of color, while lecturing white girls on scholarship about their racism.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:44:11pm

re: #154 blueraven

I don't think Sam T said populism=racism, only that race is often a subtext of populism. A point on which I would agree.

As far as Ms Palin feeling uncomfortable in Hawaii, fair enough, but one has to either deal with it by making friends, trying to understand the culture and appreciating it for what it is.

On the other hand if you feel like you are a victim, which she undeniably has done on numerous other occasions, you are more likely to dig in, blame others for your own inability to adapt, and perhaps develop a long term grievance against those who don't conform to your own ideals.

She likes the victim role. It means you can never screw up.

I was a liberal girl at a liberal college in the early 1990s, the hey-day of identity politics. I recognize Sarah's game, and I thought it was stupid even then.

207 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:44:17pm

re: #198 iceweasel

Where in my comment does it say I admire him?

You are always claiming to be a "Soros operative" and receive "Soros checks." Why would you do that, if you don't feel any admiration or affinity for Soros?

208 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:44:47pm

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure they mostly feel OK about wealthy non-white conservatives, although people's mileage may vary.

Also, you can be rich, and very powerful, without being considered an elite, if you play it just right. Witness Rush Limbaugh. This is the political inverse side of the girls from wealthy families who would insist that they were oppressed by our university because they were people of color, while lecturing white girls on scholarship about their racism.

All goes back to the construction of class. It's not reducible to any one factor - wealth, power, reputation, perception, race, "face" - they all play a part in it.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:45:11pm

re: #162 jvic

IMO the most devastating thing in that piece is the negative comparison to Truman's and Reagan's self-educations. Decades ago I read a bio (Merle Miller's?) of Truman and was astonished at how widely HST had read.

(OT: Tanenhaus notes Reagan's spending, but he neglects to mention that Reagan regretted the deficit in his Farewell Address.)

Tanenhaus on the Palin book tour:


Well, la dee da. I defer to no one in disappointment with Palin, but I don't think much of our pretentious metropolitan élites either.

Hey. Our feelings are easily hurt.

210 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:45:50pm

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

Well put. This is also my 50th comment, so congrats SanFranciscoZionist, you are the recipient of my first up-ding!

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:45:55pm

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

diversity is a concept that gets a bad rap. embracing it is essential for survival in the 21st century.

Diversity just is. You either learn to live in it, or, alternatively, you can move to Wasilla.

212 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:46:04pm

Let's see. Looking through Soros's portfolio.

What do you know. He has 400,000 shares in Massey Energy Company.

[Link: www.gurufocus.com...]

213 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:46:28pm

re: #201 Gus 802

And that's ironic. That they would cynically criticize Pickens because he has a financial (i.e. free-market, capitalist) interest in the proposal. I thought that's how it worked? Why should it matter if he stands to profit if he in the end plays an important role in finding a means to an end?

Hell, the man saw what he thought was the next big thing, a real set of solutions to a real set of problems, put his money where his mouth was, and tried to get others to do the same. If he should make a buck at it, why not? You can do well by doing good.

214 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:47:13pm

re: #207 Alouette

You are always claiming to be a "Soros operative" and receive "Soros checks." Why would you do that, if you don't feel any admiration or affinity for Soros?

To make fun of wingnuts. Especially the ones who have genuinely believed that I am an operative of dkos and soros paid to post here.

BTW, Charles has also joked about receiving Soros checks. Have you told him this must mean he feels admiration and affinity for Soros?
Or would this be a case of you having double standards?

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:48:19pm

re: #175 Alouette

Why do you admire Soros so much?

She didn't say she admired him.

And I have said it before here: blaming the man for doing what he had to to survive as a teenage boy is insane.

216 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:48:33pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Let's see. Looking through Soros's portfolio.

What do you know. He has 400,000 shares in Massey Energy Company.

[Link: www.gurufocus.com...]

Good company. Hard to go wrong with a coal company, especially bituminous.

217 armylaw  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:48:52pm

re: #76 barflytom

And being uncomfortable in an unfamiliar environment at age 18 makes her a racist for life ?

No. Being uncomfortable the first time is normal. What makes the charge of racism plausible is the fact that Palin shows no evidence of having learned anything from the experience. It's one thing for a college freshman to be naive. It's quite another for a middle-aged woman who wanted people to seriously consider her to be Vice President.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:49:05pm

re: #189 recusancy

Where does diversity get a bad rap?

Everywhere that it's paired with multiculturalism, and blamed for all the woes of the modern age.

219 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:49:52pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

Hell, the man saw what he thought was the next big thing, a real set of solutions to a real set of problems, put his money where his mouth was, and tried to get others to do the same. If he should make a buck at it, why not? You can do well by doing good.

Exactly. That's how it's done in the end: with a profit motive or the free-market working within societal requirements and established regulations. It's like being an architect and complaining about regulations. Without those regulations people wouldn't need an architect and be able to build whatever they wanted. Those regulations provide a basis for profit.

Something like that.

220 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:50:12pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

Everywhere that it's paired with multiculturalism, and blamed for all the woes of the modern age.

It all goes back to when we let the Irish in, and then let them stay. We've never recovered.

:)))

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:50:21pm

re: #210 Soap_Man

Well put. This is also my 50th comment, so congrats SanFranciscoZionist, you are the recipient of my first up-ding!

Mazal tov!

222 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:51:02pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

She didn't say she admired him.

And I have said it before here: blaming the man for doing what he had to to survive as a teenage boy is insane.

There is a man in my congregation who survived the Holocaust as a teenager. To this day he suffers from "survivor's guilt" that he is the only one of his family to survive, and he thinks he didn't do enough to save them.

Soros said that he feels no guilt and never did.

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:51:24pm
224 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:52:05pm

re: #220 Guanxi88

It all goes back to when we let the Irish in, and then let them stay. We've never recovered.

:)))

Earlier. Before that it was the Germans, who provoked the fledgeling United States's first fight over bilingual education.

225 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:52:07pm

re: #222 Alouette

There is a man in my congregation who survived the Holocaust as a teenager. To this day he suffers from "survivor's guilt" that he is the only one of his family to survive, and he thinks he didn't do enough to save them.

Soros said that he feels no guilt and never did.

And Soros will answer for it, as will we all answer for what we have done.

On this issue, I pass no judgment, and find plenty enough elsewhere to make me distrust the man and dislike his causes.

226 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:53:15pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

Earlier. Before that it was the Germans, who provoked the fledgeling United States's first fight over bilingual education.

Germans are different, though. I mean, sober, industrious, law-abiding Fritz there is no problem at all, and has never caused a problem for any of his neighbors.

But those Irish...

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:53:17pm

re: #222 Alouette

There is a man in my congregation who survived the Holocaust as a teenager. To this day he suffers from "survivor's guilt" that he is the only one of his family to survive, and he thinks he didn't do enough to save them.

Soros said that he feels no guilt and never did.

I am not in the business of telling people who've been to hell what they should feel--or more importantly, what they should tell people they feel.

228 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:53:51pm

re: #214 iceweasel

To make fun of wingnuts. Especially the ones who have genuinely believed that I am an operative of dkos and soros paid to post here.

BTW, Charles has also joked about receiving Soros checks. Have you told him this must mean he feels admiration and affinity for Soros?
Or would this be a case of you having double standards?

This is a case you you repeatedly joking about receiving Soros checks, over and over and over again. You clearly have a thing for Soros. If Charles made such a comment, he said it once. However, it is your trademark, along with "butthurt" to everyone who disagrees with you.

229 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:54:56pm

re: #216 Guanxi88

Good company. Hard to go wrong with a coal company, especially bituminous.

The punchline is that Don Blankenship the CEO of Massey is a strong opponent of AGW (HT Freetoken).

230 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:56:11pm

re: #220 Guanxi88

It all goes back to when we let the Irish in, and then let them stay. We've never recovered.

:)))

Reminds me of that Blazing Saddles moment..."but we don't want the Irish!"
:)

231 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #228 Alouette

This is a case you you repeatedly joking about receiving Soros checks, over and over and over again. You clearly have a thing for Soros. If Charles made such a comment, he said it once. However, it is your trademark, along with "butthurt" to everyone who disagrees with you.

You know, I didn't even know George Soros existed before I started reading more right-leaning blogs, and I was honestly happier that way.

232 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:56:42pm

re: #229 Gus 802

The punchline is that Don Blankenship the CEO of Massey is a strong opponent of AGW (HT Freetoken).

I've got PetroChina, CHALCO (aluminum corporation of China), and shares in Guanzhou Coal, and absolutely detest China's industrial policies and environmental regulations. But a buck is a buck, you know?

233 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:57:45pm

re: #231 SanFranciscoZionist

You know, I didn't even know George Soros existed before I started reading more right-leaning blogs, and I was honestly happier that way.

The greatest trick George Soros ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist.

234 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:58:05pm

I can't believe no one has put together the biggest story since they faked the moon landing.

Barack Obama, supposedly born in Hawaii
Sarah Palin, coed in Hawaii
Charles, raised in Hawaii.

!!!IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

I'm gonna need to see all three nirth certificates!!!
///

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:58:45pm

re: #234 rwdflynavy

I can't believe no one has put together the biggest story since they faked the moon landing.

Barack Obama, supposedly born in Hawaii
Sarah Palin, coed in Hawaii
Charles, raised in Hawaii.

!!!IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

I'm gonna need to see all three nirth certificates!!!
///

Leave Governor Lingle alone, please. She's gonna punch someone one of these days if we keep bothering her.

236 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:59:00pm

re: #234 rwdflynavy


I'm gonna need to see all three nirth certificates!!!
///

They are all from Tau Ceti?

237 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:59:35pm

re: #236 freetoken

They are all from Tau Ceti?

Actually, they are all Thetans.

//

238 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:59:35pm

Soros: Jews, Israel and George Bush cause anti-Semitism. (He also admits that maybe he also causes just a teeny tiny bit of anti-Semitism)

239 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 1:59:49pm

re: #234 rwdflynavy

I can't believe no one has put together the biggest story since they faked the moon landing.

Barack Obama, supposedly born in Hawaii
Sarah Palin, coed in Hawaii
Charles, raised in Hawaii.

!!!IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

I'm gonna need to see all three nirth certificates!!!
///

We need to get Magnum PI on this immediately!

/

240 steelerjoe  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:00:24pm

Saw this posted yesterday at Democratic Underground

Wow they still believe Babygate is a story?

241 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:00:59pm

re: #236 freetoken

They are all from Tau Ceti?

re: #237 rwdflynavy

Actually, they are all Thetans.

//

Both wrong:

Omicron Persei 8 is their homeworld.

242 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:01:07pm

re: #228 Alouette

This is a case you you repeatedly joking about receiving Soros checks, over and over and over again. You clearly have a thing for Soros. If Charles made such a comment, he said it once. However, it is your trademark, along with "butthurt" to everyone who disagrees with you.

No, it is a case of you repeatedly trying to make an issue out of nothing. Even here with your laughable 'explanation'. Your first comment here was an attempt to start a fight.

If you don't like my posts, don't read them or respond to them. See how easy that is?

And as for the word 'butthurt'...well, when the asshat fits...

I think we need a new video for the sufferers of "meta-butthurt": those buthurt by the use of the word butthurt.

243 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:01:17pm

re: #228 Alouette

This is a case you you repeatedly joking about receiving Soros checks, over and over and over again. You clearly have a thing for Soros. If Charles made such a comment, he said it once. However, it is your trademark, along with "butthurt" to everyone who disagrees with you.

Awesome logic - because a joke is cracked more than once, it's not a joke anymore! Ever heard of the phrase "running joke"?

And I don't recall iceweasel claiming that everyone who disagrees with her is 'butthurt', or anything remotely like that. You sure sound butthurt right now, though.

244 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:01:32pm

re: #231 SanFranciscoZionist

You know, I didn't even know George Soros existed before I started reading more right-leaning blogs, and I was honestly happier that way.

I went to school with his son. And I have no problem with how he survived the holocaust or his political agenda, or that he's wealthy. I just don't agree with him on many issues.

245 JamesWI  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:01:39pm

re: #147 Big Steve

Let me start with I do not ever plan to vote for Sarah Palin due to her stand on creationism. However, one of the things I thought we were all trying to get past was our "model" of what a great leader should be...i.e. white, male, East Coast educated, well traveled, impeccable spouse, 2.3 children...etc. That a person felt uncomfortable around different people at 18 or whether they did cocaine at 18 bothers me not the least.

Can you imagine the right-wing outrage if Obama dropped out of Columbia/Harvard Law School because they were too white, and went to Howard University instead? How many seconds would it take for people at Hot Air/Pam Gellar to shout "RAAACIST!!!" if that happened?

246 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:03:25pm

re: #238 Alouette

Soros: Jews, Israel and George Bush cause anti-Semitism. (He also admits that maybe he also causes just a teeny tiny bit of anti-Semitism)

Just because you're rich doesn't make you smart or right.

247 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #238 Alouette

Soros: Jews, Israel and George Bush cause anti-Semitism. (He also admits that maybe he also causes just a teeny tiny bit of anti-Semitism)

It is brilliant in its simplicity. No Jews, no anti-semitism!!!

//

248 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:04:37pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

Both wrong:

Omicron Persei 8 is their homeworld.

lol

Lrrr: These candies are chalky and unpleasant!
Nd-Nd: And what is this emotion you humans call "wuv"?
Lrrr: Surely it says "love"?
Nd-Nd: No, "wuv". With an Earth "W". Behold!
Lrrr: (shouting) This concept of "wuv" confuses and infuriates us!

249 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:06:54pm

re: #181 Soap_Man

OT: I don't know how many football fans we have here, but the Saints rallied from 10 back with 8 minutes left to force overtime, and my local Fox station decided to cut to the stupid Dallas/NYGiants game.

Saints won.

250 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:06:58pm

re: #243 Jimmah

Awesome logic - because a joke is cracked more than once, it's not a joke anymore! Ever heard of the phrase "running joke"?

And I don't recall iceweasel claiming that everyone who disagrees with her is 'butthurt', or anything remotely like that. You sure sound butthurt right now, though.

This video is dedicated to you.

251 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:08:36pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Saints won.

Good. The Saints have always been my second favorite team. And since my Bears have played like a bunch of jackasses all year, I am throwing my full support behind NO.

252 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:10:20pm

re: #250 Alouette

This video is dedicated to you.


Look, whatever our differences of opinion, I don't think it does any of us any good to go around tossing accusations of "Canadian!" at our opponents.

253 cliffster  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:10:24pm

re: #251 Soap_Man

Good. The Saints have always been my second favorite team. And since my Bears have played like a bunch of jackasses all year, I am throwing my full support behind NO.

You might enjoy this then.

254 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:10:41pm

OT from Harry's Place : Jews influence the darnedest things...

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

Edmund Standing’s recent cross-post about a BNP Life Member’s neo-Nazi blog revealed, among other things, that the BNPer is a fan of a Swedish white nationalist singer called Saga.

Among Saga’s stirring paeans to Aryan superiority is a song called “Tomorrow Belongs to Me,” which she sings utterly unironically in this tribute to all things Nordic.

As I assume everyone knows, the song is from the musical “Caberet.” In the movie version, it is featured in an unforgettable scene depicting the sinister appeal of Nazism.

What the white nationalists may not know is that the man who created those stirring lyrics which touch the hearts of Saga and other neo-Nazis was Fred Ebb, who was both gay and Jewish.

That’s right. The Jews’ malign influence extends even into the heart of white nationalism.

255 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:11:03pm
“They were a minority type thing and it wasn’t glamorous, so she came home.”

We on the right really need to take control of what's going on with our politics. This concerns me immensely. Truthfully, I think that resistance to many of the Dem policies makes sense, and the fact that we have racists, and xenophobes running the show now makes it look like that is the only motivation behind the populist movements. I am hoping we get our shit together real quick.

256 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:11:43pm

re: #245 JamesWI

Can you imagine the right-wing outrage if Obama dropped out of Columbia/Harvard Law School because they were too white, and went to Howard University instead? How many seconds would it take for people at Hot Air/Pam Gellar to shout "RAAACIST!!!" if that happened?

I honestly think that if that had happened, he wouldn't have been able to run for POTUS. Look how hard the nut fringe has struggled to paint him as an "angry black man" (beck with the "deepseated hatred of white culture", the hysterical claims that there was a michelle obama 'whitey tape'). That's part of the hysteria behind Jeremiah Wright as well.

257 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:12:34pm

re: #251 Soap_Man

Good. The Saints have always been my second favorite team. And since my Bears have played like a bunch of jackasses all year, I am throwing my full support behind NO.

Must be a Ditka fan.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:13:42pm

re: #254 Jimmah

OT from Harry's Place : Jews influence the darnedest things...

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

Wow. That is hiiilarious, in a sad, sinister kind of way.

259 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:15:22pm

re: #113 Guanxi88

Let it drift. We're arguing about arguments and meta-stuff. Fun, but not germane.

Ooo-kay. It seems to me we're arguing at the same level you entered on, given that you were making an argument about Tanenhaus' argument.

re: #254 Jimmah

What can I say? We're good at boyade, and those aznos eat it up.

260 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:15:31pm

re: #256 iceweasel

I honestly think that if that had happened, he wouldn't have been able to run for POTUS. Look how hard the nut fringe has struggled to paint him as an "angry black man" (beck with the "deepseated hatred of white culture", the hysterical claims that there was a michelle obama 'whitey tape'). That's part of the hysteria behind Jeremiah Wright as well.

First off the "whitey tape" thing was a Clinton supporter and troofer if I recall, not a Republican, and you don't think there was any issue with Wright? Please, the fact that the President sat in a church where antisemitism and other horrible things were preached should be a real concern. I would not sit in a shul where language and hatred like that were spewed.

261 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:16:00pm

re: #257 Girth

Must be a Ditka fan.

Right on the money. That's how I became a Saints fan in the first place.

262 JamesWI  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:17:56pm

re: #256 iceweasel

I honestly think that if that had happened, he wouldn't have been able to run for POTUS. Look how hard the nut fringe has struggled to paint him as an "angry black man" (beck with the "deepseated hatred of white culture", the hysterical claims that there was a michelle obama 'whitey tape'). That's part of the hysteria behind Jeremiah Wright as well.

The Palin story reminds me of the last episode of South Park, where Cartman was aghast that his favorite waterpark now had too many hispanic and black patrons.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:18:04pm

re: #260 jayzee

First off the "whitey tape" thing was a Clinton supporter and troofer if I recall, not a Republican, and you don't think there was any issue with Wright? Please, the fact that the President sat in a church where antisemitism and other horrible things were preached should be a real concern. I would not sit in a shul where language and hatred like that were spewed.

Please note, the reference was to 'nut fringe', not Republicans, and I think a troofer might well qualify for the title!

264 rurality  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:18:20pm

OK we're getting back to beating those same dead horses...Soros, Wright expect Acorn in 5.4.3.2...

265 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:18:59pm

re: #262 JamesWI

The Palin story reminds me of the last episode of South Park, where Cartman was aghast that his favorite waterpark now had too many hispanic and black patrons.

That song was great!

Even the authorities, are minorities, at my waterpark...

266 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:19:09pm
267 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:19:33pm

re: #264 rurality

OK we're getting back to beating those same dead horses...Soros, Wright expect Acorn in 5.4.3.2...

Well, we've just about flogged the botox-tightened skin right off of Palin's frame. We do need more dead horses, though, you're right.

268 Soap_Man  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:20:58pm

re: #253 cliffster

That's amazing.

269 rurality  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:21:01pm

re: #267 Guanxi88

How could I forget..Ayers. Oh, that's right, he's pissed at Obama. Might that mitigate the horror of hosting that cocktail fundraiser over a decade ago.

270 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:21:22pm

re: #267 Guanxi88

Well, we've just about flogged the botox-tightened skin right off of Palin's frame. We do need more dead horses, though, you're right.

Beck is usually a fail safe choice.

271 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:21:47pm

re: #269 rurality

How could I forget..Ayers. Oh, that's right, he's pissed at Obama. Might that mitigate the horror of hosting that cocktail fundraiser over a decade ago.

Not yet. Besides, it could be a ploy, a cunning scheme.

272 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:22:15pm

re: #270 Stanley Sea

Beck is usually a fail safe choice.

I was thinking about bringing up Philip Anschutz.

273 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:22:36pm

This doesn't surprise me. I don't know if she's a racist or not but I definitely think she has a lot of contempt for people who don't share her values as stated earlier. When she was on the stump for the ticket here in 2008 she was speaking in a rural and more conservative part of the state talking about how glad she was to be in the real Virginia. It's the typical reverse elitism towards urban and liberal residents that politicians like Palin play to about people who live in cities and are more secular in their belief systems somehow being less American. One thing that I give Bob McDonnell credit for even though I didn't support him was that he didn't play that card. Palin's whole shtick is that people who don't share her worldview are somehow not real Americans and it's a huge turn off honestly.

274 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:22:42pm

re: #270 Stanley Sea

Beck is usually a fail safe choice.

Yep, I noted but did not comment, on his appearance earlier in this thread. Reductio ad Beckam pisses me off something fierce.

275 rurality  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:23:44pm

re: #270 Stanley Sea

There's still too much life in that ignoble steed, he offers up daily offenses rather than the preferred historical incident or sermons (that may or may not have had Obama in attendance) that we can pummel with our tiny outraged fists

276 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:23:53pm

re: #272 Gus 802

I was thinking about bringing up Philip Anschutz.

Alger Hiss, anyone? Just to tie Sam Tanenhaus back in. Love his biography of Whittaker Chambers, but disagree with a good chunk of his recent output.

277 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:24:39pm

re: #264 rurality

OK we're getting back to beating those same dead horses...Soros, Wright expect Acorn in 5.4.3.2...

George Bush didn't do all his hours for the Air National Guard!

Clinton did his intern!

Bush Sr. should have gone to Baghdad!

Iran-Contra!

Iran hostages!

//Actually, if we're going to talk about Presidential bad judgement, I'd just as soon discuss Sally Hemings.

278 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:24:41pm

re: #275 rurality

There's still too much life in that ignoble steed, he offers up daily offenses rather than the preferred historical incident or sermons (that may or may not have had Obama in attendance) that we can pummel with our tiny outraged fists

I got that. Really wasn't thinking dead horse-thoughts. He's prevalent with every new show of idiot outrage.

279 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:25:41pm

re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist

George Bush didn't do all his hours for the Air National Guard!

Clinton did his intern!

Bush Sr. should have gone to Baghdad!

Iran-Contra!

Iran hostages!

//Actually, if we're going to talk about Presidential bad judgement, I'd just as soon discuss Sally Hemings.

Remember the Maine!

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:25:49pm

re: #271 Guanxi88

Not yet. Besides, it could be a ploy, a cunning scheme.

Which part? Obama continuing to conduct the nation's wars, or Ayers disliking it?

281 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:26:23pm

re: #279 Guanxi88

Remember the Maine!

Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead!

Get thee to a nunnery!

//

282 researchok  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:26:27pm

I don't buy the racist thing at all.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting the charge. Further, even if she communicated that to her father, so what? she was a teenager. Recall that Michelle Obama wrote some pretty racially oriented stuff and inflammatory stuff while she was at Princeton. Rightfully, no one holds her accountable for what she wrote as a kid in college. I'm no fan of Sarah Palin at all, but the same rules ought to apply to her, especially when there is no supporting evidence.

Tarring someone with a racist label based on anything but their own behavior is no joke and not appropriate.

This is one of the few times I disagree with Charles. I've seen him falsely accused and excoriated- and I don't like it one bit when his accusers assign false motives to him.

283 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:26:57pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

Which part? Obama continuing to conduct the nation's wars, or Ayers disliking it?

Both, maybe? I mean, if we're gonna concoct schemes to explain things, let's build 'em right.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:27:15pm

re: #279 Guanxi88

Remember the Maine!

Ma, Ma, where's my Pa?

285 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:27:29pm

This it totally OT, but I can't wait for Tuesday night, when Conservapedia's Andy Schlafly will get a change to show off his circular logic and make an ass of himself in the Colbert Report.

While part of me is mad that this'll give Schlafly publicity he does not deserve, it will also expose him as a raving self-centered lunatic. Can't wait to see him get pwned, like kids say these days.

286 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:27:35pm

Back to Palin...there's many many things that I dislike about the lady and her positions, but dang, I'm still aghast about the misquote to John Wooden in her book - instead of John Wooden Legs the native American. For some reason, that one won't leave my brain!

287 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:27:37pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Ma, Ma, where's my Pa?

Gone to the White House, Ha! Ha! Ha!

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:28:21pm

re: #282 researchok


Recall that Michelle Obama wrote some pretty racially oriented stuff and inflammatory stuff while she was at Princeton. Rightfully, no one holds her accountable for what she wrote as a kid in college.

Have you SEEN some of the stuff people have said about what Michelle wrote?

That said, I do agree with you.

289 SteveMcG  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:28:32pm

Don't underestimate the genius of the Palinites. The have invented quantum thinking. You see, there is a dual nature of statements. They can be true and untrue at the same time, and the mere act of asking a question distorts the answer.

290 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:28:36pm

re: #285 mikhailtheplumber

Setting my DVR right now.

291 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:28:38pm

re: #285 mikhailtheplumber

No, seriously? No... oh wow.

If there was one man I wouldn't want mocking me, it'd be Colbert. The dude gets to the heart of things.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:28:46pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Ma, Ma, where's my Pa?

Rachel Jackson is a lady bigamist!

293 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:29:21pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

Rachel Jackson is a lady bigamist!

Woodrow Wilson - the ORIGINAL nirther conspiracy.

294 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:29:34pm

Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion. Hey wanted to keep up with the 19th century presidential campaigns.

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:30:13pm

re: #294 HappyWarrior

Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion. Hey wanted to keep up with the 19th century presidential campaigns.

Kennedy will take orders from the Pope of Rome!

296 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:32:10pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Kennedy will take orders from the Pope of Rome!

As will Al Smith and Charles O'Conor.

297 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:32:36pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

Please note, the reference was to 'nut fringe', not Republicans, and I think a troofer might well qualify for the title!

Fair enough, but I was reading a criticism of the right. Now nuts are nuts, hence moronic convergence, but I really was more in disagreement with Ice's take on Wright. I still have a problem with who President Obama chose for a spiritual adviser.

298 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:33:07pm

re: #294 HappyWarrior

Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion. Hey wanted to keep up with the 19th century presidential campaigns.

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Kennedy will take orders from the Pope of Rome!

re: #296 HappyWarrior

As will Al Smith and Charles O'Conor.

re: #220 Guanxi88

It all goes back to when we let the Irish in, and then let them stay. We've never recovered.

:)))

299 researchok  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:33:25pm

re: #288 SanFranciscoZionist

Have you SEEN some of the stuff people have said about what Michelle wrote?

That said, I do agree with you.

Of course I have read what was said and I was outraged- and that's why I don't think we ought to be doing the same.

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:35:09pm

re: #296 HappyWarrior

As will Al Smith and Charles O'Conor.

John Adams is a royalist! Madison's an atheist!

//Did anyone ever say anything bad about George Washington?

301 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:35:17pm

re: #297 jayzee

Now nuts are nuts, hence moronic convergence, but I really was more in disagreement with Ice's take on Wright. I still have a problem with who President Obama chose for a spiritual adviser.

No, Obama had no idea that was the sort of stuff Wright preached.
///

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:35:46pm

re: #297 jayzee

Fair enough, but I was reading a criticism of the right. Now nuts are nuts, hence moronic convergence, but I really was more in disagreement with Ice's take on Wright. I still have a problem with who President Obama chose for a spiritual adviser.

I find it interesting that Oprah had enough sense to back away from him.

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:36:08pm

re: #299 researchok

Of course I have read what was said and I was outraged- and that's why I don't think we ought to be doing the same.

Ok, that I can get behind.

304 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:37:21pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

John Adams is a royalist! Madison's an atheist!

//Did anyone ever say anything bad about George Washington?

Yeah actually. There were a few officers during the Revolution who wanted to replace him with Horatio Gates. Plus he ticked off the Jeffersonians with his foreign policies towards Britain I believe.

305 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:37:48pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

John Adams is a royalist! Madison's an atheist!

//Did anyone ever say anything bad about George Washington?

The folks in Shay's Rebellion probably had a few choice words.

306 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:38:13pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I find it interesting that Oprah had enough sense to back away from him.

Yes, I noticed that too. She went for a while and then pulled out. Who knows, maybe it's all politics, but there are certain things that I feel can't be excused away because of political decisions.

307 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #282 researchok

I don't buy the racist thing at all.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting the charge. Further, even if she communicated that to her father, so what? she was a teenager. Recall that Michelle Obama wrote some pretty racially oriented stuff and inflammatory stuff while she was at Princeton. Rightfully, no one holds her accountable for what she wrote as a kid in college. I'm no fan of Sarah Palin at all, but the same rules ought to apply to her, especially when there is no supporting evidence.

Tarring someone with a racist label based on anything but their own behavior is no joke and not appropriate.

This is one of the few times I disagree with Charles. I've seen him falsely accused and excoriated- and I don't like it one bit when his accusers assign false motives to him.

I don't think racism is implied here by anyone. However, race, gender, and class are all inextricably connected as the result of cultural evolution and all intermingle within subcultures and political ideologies and especially identity politics.

308 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:38:21pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I find it interesting that Oprah had enough sense to back away from him.

Lady's many things - but stupid is not one of them.

309 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:38:37pm

re: #260 jayzee

First off the "whitey tape" thing was a Clinton supporter and troofer if I recall, not a Republican, and you don't think there was any issue with Wright? Please, the fact that the President sat in a church where antisemitism and other horrible things were preached should be a real concern. I would not sit in a shul where language and hatred like that were spewed.

I said 'nut fringe', and as far as I am concerned that Larry Whatsit guy, the Hillary supporter who kept pushing that tape nonsense, most definitely qualifies.
Insanity isn't partisan, although it may sometimes be pretty to think so.

310 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:38:54pm

re: #305 Guanxi88

The folks in Shay's Rebellion probably had a few choice words.

Fries' Rebellion, too, as I think of it.

311 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:39:01pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

John Adams is a royalist! Madison's an atheist!

//Did anyone ever say anything bad about George Washington?

His wig made his head look like a mushroom. There, I said it.

312 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:40:02pm

re: #311 Girth

His wig made his head look like a mushroom. There, I said it.

And he looked like a butch Barbara Bush. There, I said it.

313 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:40:13pm

re: #61 tsflanagan

The contempt for Sarah Palin is disproportionate to her shortcomings.

My contempt for you is disproportionate to your posting history.

/98 posts in just over 5 years...we've been sorely missing your incisive commentary and biting wit

314 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:40:31pm

re: #311 Girth

His wig made his head look like a mushroom. There, I said it.

He told really, really dirty jokes.

Really.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:40:48pm

re: #308 Guanxi88

Lady's many things - but stupid is not one of them.

Yeah...it's just, you know, I like the idea of the PRESIDENT also being smart.

Then again, back when the Democrats were in a frenzy--"black guy or white woman? What to do?" I suggested we run Oprah, and get a two-fer. Stedman doesn't seem like First Gentleman material, but I'm sure Gayle would be an excellent White House hostess.

316 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:40:50pm

re: #309 iceweasel

I said 'nut fringe', and as far as I am concerned that Larry Whatsit guy, the Hillary supporter who kept pushing that tape nonsense, most definitely qualifies.
Insanity isn't partisan, although it may sometimes be pretty to think so.

No you're right, crazy is crazy and everywhere. Just out of curiosity though, you didn't have a problem with Wright? That's what stood out the most.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:41:45pm

re: #314 Obdicut

He told really, really dirty jokes.

Really.

Wasn't that a plus in the eighteenth century?

318 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:41:59pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

John Adams is a royalist! Madison's an atheist!

//Did anyone ever say anything bad about George Washington?

Washington stole Haydn's wig!

/

319 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:42:02pm

re: #314 Obdicut

He told really, really dirty jokes.

Really.

Awesome. Our first President, and original author of The Aristocrats.

320 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:42:03pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah...it's just, you know, I like the idea of the PRESIDENT also being smart.

Then again, back when the Democrats were in a frenzy--"black guy or white woman? What to do?" I suggested we run Oprah, and get a two-fer. Stedman doesn't seem like First Gentleman material, but I'm sure Gayle would be an excellent White House hostess.

Obama's presence there and any loyalty he might have had to Wright's church were based in political considerations. As I understand it, Wright's church was and is a political powerhouse in Chicago. Had Obama NOT gone, it would have been odd.

321 AK-47%  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:42:49pm

re: #289 SteveMcG

Don't underestimate the genius of the Palinites. The have invented quantum thinking. You see, there is a dual nature of statements. They can be true and untrue at the same time, and the mere act of asking a question distorts the answer.


The old Beckite approach of "Why am I the only one asking these kind of questions?".

Even if one isn't, it creates a field of quantim flux that will generate hours of pointless political discussion...

322 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:43:15pm

re: #129 Charles

And now I'm being accused of being a "bigot" in the 'Thank You' thread, just like clockwork, for pointing out that a raving AGW denier is a creationist.

You just can't please some people...

///

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:43:47pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

Obama's presence there and any loyalty he might have had to Wright's church were based in political considerations. As I understand it, Wright's church was and is a political powerhouse in Chicago. Had Obama NOT gone, it would have been odd.

Sure, but Oprah realized she was going for a national audience earlier, it seems...

324 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:44:32pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

Obama's presence there and any loyalty he might have had to Wright's church were based in political considerations. As I understand it, Wright's church was and is a political powerhouse in Chicago. Had Obama NOT gone, it would have been odd.

Says a lot about Chicago politics sadly.

325 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:44:58pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, but Oprah realized she was going for a national audience earlier, it seems...

Hence the timing of the parting of ways. Had Obama cut loose earlier, when the White House wasn't in the bag, he'd have alienated his domestic constituency and damaged himself and ended his political career pretty darned quickly. Hedging his bets, he held off until it was both safe & necessary to do so.

326 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:45:39pm

re: #324 jayzee

Says a lot about Chicago politics sadly.

Yes, yes it does.

327 recusancy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:45:55pm

re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist

George Bush didn't do all his hours for the Air National Guard!

Clinton did his intern!

Bush Sr. should have gone to Baghdad!

Iran-Contra!

Iran hostages!

//Actually, if we're going to talk about Presidential bad judgement, I'd just as soon discuss Sally Hemings.

I tend to believe that one was good judgment. Cheney said it '94 that we'd have all the problems we're having in Iraq today. To bad he didn't take his own advice the second time around.

328 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:48:03pm

re: #316 jayzee

No you're right, crazy is crazy and everywhere. Just out of curiosity though, you didn't have a problem with Wright? That's what stood out the most.

Guanx88 nails the Wright issue for me in 320.

The point I was originally making, though, is that there was an ugly undercurrent to some of the hysteria over Wright that most definitely was meant to play to the notion of Obama as scary, angry black man bent on separatism, reparations, and 'getting whitey'. The talk about the mythical whitey tape is a perfect example of it: it was supposedly some event connected with Wright's church, featuring an angry michelle obama, and if I'm not mistaken the rumours even included talk about Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Those particular sorts of rumours were certainly aimed at propagating that notion of 'angry black man'-- and that is a trope still being marketed now by some, with talk of Obama having a 'deepseated hatred for white culture' and the like.

329 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:48:15pm

re: #326 Guanxi88

Yes, yes it does.

I don't know if you're from Chicago or not, but I go on business occasionally and what AMAZES me is they have an area called "Jew Town" that they say without the slightest hint of embarrassment. I was shocked!

330 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:49:53pm

re: #329 jayzee

I don't know if you're from Chicago or not, but I go on business occasionally and what AMAZES me is they have an area called "Jew Town" that they say without the slightest hint of embarrassment. I was shocked!

Spent some time there, but knew quite a few Chicagoans. Very rough place, and with political traditions and attitudes that would be grounds for indictment and public shunning in any civilized nation.

331 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:50:39pm

re: #328 iceweasel

Guanx88 nails the Wright issue for me in 320.

The point I was originally making, though, is that there was an ugly undercurrent to some of the hysteria over Wright that most definitely was meant to play to the notion of Obama as scary, angry black man bent on separatism, reparations, and 'getting whitey'. The talk about the mythical whitey tape is a perfect example of it: it was supposedly some event connected with Wright's church, featuring an angry michelle obama, and if I'm not mistaken the rumours even included talk about Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Those particular sorts of rumours were certainly aimed at propagating that notion of 'angry black man'-- and that is a trope still being marketed now by some, with talk of Obama having a 'deepseated hatred for white culture' and the like.

I think Wright is inexcusable and the race baiting on the right is appalling. Racial politics is absolutely disgusting.

332 recusancy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:51:51pm

re: #324 jayzee

Says a lot about Chicago politics sadly.

I'm sure he's the first politician to use a church for local political gain. Anywhere outside of Chicago this just doesn't happen. /

333 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:53:23pm

re: #31 Racer X

I've been to Hawaii, and yes, Haoles are often discriminated against by the locals. Perhaps Palin experienced a form of this and conveyed it to her father, hence the comment.

Kill Haole Day

This NSFW search yields results, which would make me think twice before enrolling my child in a Hawaiian school. I trust people are more mature in university. But maybe Palin caught a lot of nativist abuse from Hawaiians, and is too gracious or politicall calculating to say so.

334 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:54:40pm

re: #332 recusancy

I'm sure he's the first politician to use a church for local political gain. Anywhere outside of Chicago this just doesn't happen. /

I think he's saddened by some of what was taught there, and not by the cynical abuse of the church itself, which is a daily occurrence and is, indeed, even a requirement for many positions.

335 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:54:48pm

re: #175 Alouette

Why do you admire Soros so much?

Um - you just posted a link to an article which exposes an example of blatant wingnut fabrication and distortion about Soros. Very interesting it was too -don't really see how it advances your point though - just the opposite, in fact.

336 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:55:29pm

re: #332 recusancy

I'm sure he's the first politician to use a church for local political gain. Anywhere outside of Chicago this just doesn't happen. /

Not the church going part, the fact that it had to be a racist one. I have a problem with that, like I would if one were to attend a white nationalist church for political purposes. The argument is that the President HAD to go to Wright's church because politically it is so powerful. I am saying, IF that is the case, then it says something sad about Chicago. You don't think so? You think having to go to a racist church for political reasons speaks well of the local in which a pol is running?

337 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:55:39pm

re: #331 jayzee

I think Wright is inexcusable and the race baiting on the right is appalling. Racial politics is absolutely disgusting.

I think the Wright issue was a sad sideshow carnival that distracted from talking about the real issues during the campaign. Another shiny object for the media to chase and yap about, along with trivia like who spent how much on their wardrobe.

338 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:56:49pm

re: #337 iceweasel

I think the Wright issue was a sad sideshow carnival that distracted from talking about the real issues during the campaign. Another shiny object for the media to chase and yap about, along with trivia like who spent how much on their wardrobe.

The last campaign-cycle was nothing but shiny objects all around.

339 swamprat  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:56:54pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

Obama's presence there and any loyalty he might have had to Wright's church were based in political considerations. As I understand it, Wright's church was and is a political powerhouse in Chicago. Had Obama NOT gone, it would have been odd.



Damned if you do and unelected if you don't.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:57:14pm

re: #332 recusancy

I'm sure he's the first politician to use a church for local political gain. Anywhere outside of Chicago this just doesn't happen. /

Well, going back to our girl of the hour, Sarah Palin's pastor apparently said that people who criticized Bush were damned, and question if Kerry voters would go to heaven. I have to tell you, that worries me about as much as Wright. And Wright does worry me. I know where he is coming from, and I do not like it.

I also do not like the prominence given to powerful Protestant preachers in U.S. politics in general. I was deeply ticked off with both McCain and Obama for agreeding to the Saddleback Church event.

341 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:57:21pm

re: #334 Guanxi88

I think he's saddened by some of what was taught there, and not by the cynical abuse of the church itself, which is a daily occurrence and is, indeed, even a requirement for many positions.

Exactly. IIRC his association with it goes back to when he was a community organiser and it was essential that he have a presence there.

342 steelerjoe  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:57:26pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

Obama's presence there and any loyalty he might have had to Wright's church were based in political considerations. As I understand it, Wright's church was and is a political powerhouse in Chicago. Had Obama NOT gone, it would have been odd.

Fair, but he should have know to break connection with Rev. Wright early in the campaign. Oprah even left the church because she didn't like the hate in Rev. Wright's sermons.

343 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:57:38pm

re: #332 recusancy

I'm sure he's the first politician to use a church for local political gain. Anywhere outside of Chicago this just doesn't happen. /

Notice how separation of church and state never extends to Dems campaigning from the pulpits of black churches.

344 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:57:44pm

re: #339 swamprat


Damned if you do and unelected if you don't.

Not to go all Napoleonic, but I'd say Chicago was worth a sermon.

345 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:58:09pm

re: #337 iceweasel

I think the Wright issue was a sad sideshow carnival that distracted from talking about the real issues during the campaign. Another shiny object for the media to chase and yap about, along with trivia like who spent how much on their wardrobe.

Then we agree to disagree. I think the Wright issue is more akin to Palin's association with Robert Stacy McCain.

346 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:59:23pm

re: #337 iceweasel

I think the Wright issue was a sad sideshow carnival that distracted from talking about the real issues during the campaign. Another shiny object for the media to chase and yap about, along with trivia like who spent how much on their wardrobe.

Respectfully disagree. We are obliged to try and weigh the character of the candidates, and evaluating what he fills his ears with each Sunday morning is fair game.

347 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:59:29pm

re: #343 The Sanity Inspector

Notice how separation of church and state never extends to Dems campaigning from the pulpits of black churches.

Of course not. Any supposed politicking one sees there is purely coincidental, and the result of the fact that the Democratic Party's platform is indistinguishable from the Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets.
///

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 2:59:55pm

re: #333 The Sanity Inspector

This NSFW search yields results, which would make me think twice before enrolling my child in a Hawaiian school. I trust people are more mature in university. But maybe Palin caught a lot of nativist abuse from Hawaiians, and is too gracious or politicall calculating to say so.

The Southern Poverty Law Center's magazine ran a piece a short time ago on hate crimes against white Hawaiians. However, I'm prone to think Palin just didn't like Hawaii very much.

349 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:00:58pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

While I certainly don't like the Saddleback Church or its pastor, he actually asked insightful and appropriate questions. Not bullshit about flag pins. This more shows what a terrible state the media is in than anything good about that church, though.

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:01:18pm

re: #343 The Sanity Inspector

Notice how separation of church and state never extends to Dems campaigning from the pulpits of black churches.

Right. Republicans don't go to churches for political purposes.

Are you having global warming problems on your planet?

351 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:01:40pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, going back to our girl of the hour, Sarah Palin's pastor apparently said that people who criticized Bush were damned, and question if Kerry voters would go to heaven. I have to tell you, that worries me about as much as Wright. And Wright does worry me. I know where he is coming from, and I do not like it.

I also do not like the prominence given to powerful Protestant preachers in U.S. politics in general. I was deeply ticked off with both McCain and Obama for agreeding to the Saddleback Church event.

Here here-Or the fact that many Christians, even here, were so opposed to Romney because he is a Mormon.

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:01:49pm

re: #344 Guanxi88

Not to go all Napoleonic, but I'd say Chicago was worth a sermon.

I'd rather have it than Paris.

353 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:02:05pm

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

The Southern Poverty Law Center's magazine ran a piece a short time ago on hate crimes against white Hawaiians. However, I'm prone to think Palin just didn't like Hawaii very much.

Probably a bit more "exotic" than she'd bargained for.

354 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:02:53pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd rather have it than Paris.

We'll always have Paris.

355 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:03:48pm

re: #345 jayzee

Then we agree to disagree. I think the Wright issue is more akin to Palin's association with Robert Stacy McCain.

re: #346 The Sanity Inspector

Respectfully disagree. We are obliged to try and weigh the character of the candidates, and evaluating what he fills his ears with each Sunday morning is fair game.

Well, it'd be a boring old world if we all agreed all the time. :)

I'd like to see a lot less religion in politics overall.

356 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:04:29pm

re: #355 iceweasel

Well, it'd be a boring old world if we all agreed all the time. :)

I'd like to see a lot less religion in politics overall.

And vice versa. Everybody needs to stay in their lanes.

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:04:44pm

re: #349 Obdicut

While I certainly don't like the Saddleback Church or its pastor, he actually asked insightful and appropriate questions. Not bullshit about flag pins. This more shows what a terrible state the media is in than anything good about that church, though.

It's not personally about Rick Warren or Saddleback. Allowing a preacher to summon two presidential candidates to be interviewed by him, in his church, as a major part of his campaign, struck me as being far beyong the line of propriety.

I wouldn't have liked it if they'd done it at Glide Cathedral in San Francisco, or Temple Emanu-El in New York. Which they would not have done.

358 darthstar  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:06:22pm

How Palin will translate this tomorrow: They're calling my dad a racist! Oh, and look, I'm holding Trig, who they also hate, also! (note, I originally wrote 'whom they hate' but realized that the objective isn't something Sarah's familiar with, so dropped the m for authenticity.

359 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:06:24pm

re: #349 Obdicut

While I certainly don't like the Saddleback Church or its pastor, he actually asked insightful and appropriate questions. Not bullshit about flag pins. This more shows what a terrible state the media is in than anything good about that church, though.

Why isn't asking insightful and appropriate questions "anything good"?

360 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:07:07pm

re: #353 Guanxi88

Probably a bit more "exotic" than she'd bargained for.

I imagine it just seemed faraway and with idyllic weather when she picked it out, and then it was real, and more complicated and foreign than she expected.

I went back East for similar reasons, and burned out fast on the snow, and Easterners. And the hippie school I ended up at. But one of my high school friends loves it, has developed an MA accent, and bought a condo in Salem.

361 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:07:36pm

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

The Southern Poverty Law Center's magazine ran a piece a short time ago on hate crimes against white Hawaiians. However, I'm prone to think Palin just didn't like Hawaii very much.

Oddly, she didn't like anywhere very much, when it came to attending college.
Not that there's anything inherently wrong with attending several schools, or transferring, but I wonder what her reasons were for each of the other transfers. Maybe she was just homesick for Alaska, but again, that speaks to the point you (or someone) made earlier -- I'd prefer a POTUS or veep who is comfortable all over America.

362 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:08:02pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

We have a better temple Emanu-El in San Francisco, anyway.

I do get your point, and think it's totally valid.

re: #359 The Sanity Inspector

Why isn't asking insightful and appropriate questions "anything good"?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase it?

363 Guanxi88  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:08:40pm

re: #360 SanFranciscoZionist

I imagine it just seemed faraway and with idyllic weather when she picked it out, and then it was real, and more complicated and foreign than she expected.

I went back East for similar reasons, and burned out fast on the snow, and Easterners. And the hippie school I ended up at. But one of my high school friends loves it, has developed an MA accent, and bought a condo in Salem.

Loved Salem. Even though about getting a place there and taking the commuter rail to work in beantown, at one point. Wife wouldn't have it, though. She liked to sleep late and knew she'd miss her train and end up late for work.

364 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:09:51pm

re: #350 SanFranciscoZionist

Right. Republicans don't go to churches for political purposes.

Are you having global warming problems on your planet?

Ebenezer Baptist Church, the home church of Martin Luther King, Jr., is just down the interstate from me. Every Democratic primary season, the candidates come flocking there. It's like having our own miniature Iowa.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:10:26pm

re: #362 Obdicut

We have a better temple Emanu-El in San Francisco, anyway.

I do get your point, and think it's totally valid.

I was married there! Also bat mitzvahed. (It's not a verb, I know, but English is like that...)

366 swamprat  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:11:17pm

re: #329 jayzee

Not always an invective. I remember when "Negro" was polite and "black" was rude. Blacks rightly stated that their skin color wasn't black and they objected to the usage. Then "black" became correct and "Negro" was was unacceptable because a slur was derived from it. "Jew" is from "Judah". By popular usage, it now applies to both the tribes of Judah and Israel. The two are synonymous, but it was not always so. The Jews have often been persecuted, but the word "Jew" has been used by friend, foe, and family for centuries.

367 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:11:42pm

re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist

I was married there! Also bat mitzvahed. (It's not a verb, I know, but English is like that...)

My grandmother's house is up on Clay street, between Locust and Laurel, right above the temple. My grandfather and grandmother were the first Jews on the block, too-- he was a real estate agent, and finagled it. Bought the house for $65,000 in 1960-- you don't want to know what it's worth now. ;)

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:11:56pm

re: #364 The Sanity Inspector

Ebenezer Baptist Church, the home church of Martin Luther King, Jr., is just down the interstate from me. Every Democratic primary season, the candidates come flocking there. It's like having our own miniature Iowa.

Oh, I can well imagine. But going to church to get votes is a truly bipartisan activity.

369 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:12:46pm

re: #367 Obdicut

My grandmother's house is up on Clay street, between Locust and Laurel, right above the temple. My grandfather and grandmother were the first Jews on the block, too-- he was a real estate agent, and finagled it. Bought the house for $65,000 in 1960-- you don't want to know what it's worth now. ;)

I have a good idea--I know where that is. Not a bad investment, eh?

370 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:12:54pm

re: #356 Guanxi88

And vice versa. Everybody needs to stay in their lanes.

And don't cross the streams!

Later, folks. Thanks as ever for the intelligent and friendly discussions!

371 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:13:58pm

re: #355 iceweasel

Well, it'd be a boring old world if we all agreed all the time. :)

I'd like to see a lot less religion in politics overall.

Well, consider:

Would you really be more proud of and more connected to your Judaism if it had nothing to say about hunger or homelessness; nothing to say about capital punishment or abortion; nothing to say about euthanasia or rationing health care; nothing to say about genetic engineering or third world debt, violence or pornography, poverty or slavery? Would Judaism truly inspire you and uplift you, would it transform your soul and realize your dreams if it was merely a complete theory of candle lighting and bread blessing?

372 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:14:22pm

re: #369 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a good idea--I know where that is. Not a bad investment, eh?

Hard to think of a better one. Which is a good thing, because his brother embezzled from him, bigtime, and then a scurrilous stockbroker wiped out the rest of their wealth. They owned the house free and clear, though, so they were never in trouble. When grandma died, my parents wanted to sell it-- but my brothers and I talked them out of it. Now they're retiring there. I'm happy.

However, I now have to make enough money to pay the estate tax on it when they pass.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:15:35pm

re: #372 Obdicut

Hard to think of a better one. Which is a good thing, because his brother embezzled from him, bigtime, and then a scurrilous stockbroker wiped out the rest of their wealth. They owned the house free and clear, though, so they were never in trouble. When grandma died, my parents wanted to sell it-- but my brothers and I talked them out of it. Now they're retiring there. I'm happy.

However, I now have to make enough money to pay the estate tax on it when they pass.

Oh Lord. Lots of luck on that.

374 elizmr  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:16:22pm

Hearsay and libel

375 swamprat  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:17:06pm

re: #355 iceweasel

Well, it'd be a boring old world if we all agreed all the time. :)

I'd like to see a lot less religion in politics overall.

I don't go to church to learn science.
I don't get political advice from actors.
I don't get scientific knowledge from television.
I don't get the fish plate at the all-night diner.
I don't buy guitars from walmart.

376 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:18:05pm

re: #362 Obdicut

We have a better temple Emanu-El in San Francisco, anyway.

I do get your point, and think it's totally valid.

re: #359 The Sanity Inspector

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase it?

You said that the church ask good questions, but that it didn't mean that there was anything good about the church. I was asking how you drew the latter conclusion.

377 darthstar  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:19:10pm

re: #375 swamprat


I don't buy guitarsanything from walmart.

Now I agree with everything you said in that post. ;)

378 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:22:18pm

re: #376 The Sanity Inspector

You said that the church ask good questions, but that it didn't mean that there was anything good about the church. I was asking how you drew the latter conclusion.

Can you please show me where I said that there wasn't anything good about the church?

This is the Rick Warren who won't condemn the 'kill all the gays' Ugandan law, remember? I don't like the church, and I don't like him, for that, and other of their policies. That's not the same as saying it contains no good.

379 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:23:22pm

re: #371 The Sanity Inspector

Well, consider:

Would you really be more proud of and more connected to your Judaism if it had nothing to say about hunger or homelessness; nothing to say about capital punishment or abortion; nothing to say about euthanasia or rationing health care; nothing to say about genetic engineering or third world debt, violence or pornography, poverty or slavery? Would Judaism truly inspire you and uplift you, would it transform your soul and realize your dreams if it was merely a complete theory of candle lighting and bread blessing?

Religion can and should, to its believers, provide a template for the way they should live their lives. However, that is very different than saying "Chickens coming home to roost" or "911 happened because of homosexuality" or "This is G-d's war". It is also very different than saying that religion should have a role in politics and visa versa.

380 elizmr  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:33:05pm

I actually just almost finished reading the book, and she does not come off as a racist at all. She is very proud of Todd's and her kid's backgrounds and talks about Todd's mother (who was married to a Caucasian) at length. Let's not tar and feather her because of something her father supposedly said.
Let's also not jump to the conclusion that she is a racist because she preferred to go to school in a place that was like home. Honestly, those dots do NOT connect!

381 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:34:21pm

re: #378 Obdicut

Can you please show me where I said that there wasn't anything good about the church?

This is the Rick Warren who won't condemn the 'kill all the gays' Ugandan law, remember? I don't like the church, and I don't like him, for that, and other of their policies. That's not the same as saying it contains no good.

Okay, gotcha.

382 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:39:59pm

re: #379 jayzee

Religion can and should, to its believers, provide a template for the way they should live their lives. However, that is very different than saying "Chickens coming home to roost" or "911 happened because of homosexuality" or "This is G-d's war". It is also very different than saying that religion should have a role in politics and visa versa.

Those instances certainly don't put religion in a flattering light, certainly. But so long as politics in this country attempts to inspire us with a higher calling, religion will be involved to some extent. The inter-seepage is unpoliceable.

383 revGDright  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:42:18pm

If you are a haole away from home with no local connections, Hawaii can be a very unfriendly place.

384 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:52:32pm

I just came on to this thread and skimmed through the posts above.

But I knew a girl who moved to Hawaii and said the local non-whites were very hostile to her and she said it was because she was white.

I can't buy the racist argument about Palin because of this experience...and I just finished her book and I like her.

385 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 3:58:34pm

re: #384 Plato

I can't buy the racist argument about Palin because of this experience...and I just finished her book and I like her.

And you're a Birther too.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

386 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:00:03pm

Ouch

387 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:01:30pm

The question is, am I a troll?

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:03:02pm

re: #383 revGDright

If you are a haole away from home with no local connections, Hawaii can be a very unfriendly place.

Interesting, however, her father did not say "she didn't feel people were friendly to out-of-state students", which is a wholly unexceptionable statement.

389 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:08:20pm

Hello...am I still a lizard?

390 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:08:56pm

Yes!

391 Sloppy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:09:46pm

"Populist" and "populism" seem to be taking on meanings I never associated with them. I'm an old man, and "populism" as I understand and remember it was a political and economic movement starting places like here (Husker Nation) and producing people like William Jennings Bryan and Sen. George Norris. Bryan was a joke, but Norris gave us things like the unicameral, nonpartisan legislature and, more important, public power. I'm strong for capitalism, but will defend public power, at least as practiced in Nebraska, as one of the most useful innovations of the past century. Meanwhile, Go Big Red.

392 Plato  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:19:43pm

re: #391 Sloppy

I played guitar and sang in Lincoln in the Reubens Cocos in '72. Were you there?

393 Sloppy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:22:55pm

Re 392- Plato

I wasn't there. Except for a part-time teaching gig at UNL, I seldom went to Lincoln. Sounds like fun, though.

394 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:44:47pm

re: #346 The Sanity Inspector

Respectfully disagree. We are obliged to try and weigh the character of the candidates, and evaluating what he fills his ears with each Sunday morning is fair game.

my vote is for whoever is still in bed or tailgating at the football game ;-)

395 jvic  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey. Our feelings are easily hurt.

chuckle Not you, SFZ...I said 'pretentious metropolitan elites'.

Or have I just managed to offend you twice? ;-)

396 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 5:06:01pm

re: #395 jvic

i though, resemble that remark thrice ;-)

397 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 5:25:40pm

re: #366 swamprat

Not always an invective. I remember when "Negro" was polite and "black" was rude. Blacks rightly stated that their skin color wasn't black and they objected to the usage. Then "black" became correct and "Negro" was was unacceptable because a slur was derived from it. "Jew" is from "Judah". By popular usage, it now applies to both the tribes of Judah and Israel. The two are synonymous, but it was not always so. The Jews have often been persecuted, but the word "Jew" has been used by friend, foe, and family for centuries.

It wasn't the word Jew I was surprised by. I was shocked that they used an ethnicity (as opposed to nationality) to describe a neighborhood. For example we have China Town, not Chinese Town, and Little Italy not Little Italian. There are no Black Lands, or Hispanicvilles to my knowledge, though there are Little Jamaica's and Little Havanas.

398 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #164 iceweasel


Wingnut: We love self-made men who created their wealth! Capitalism! Entrepeneurial spirit! Rah!
(Unless the family name is Soros; then it's bad.)
Etc.

Isn't THAT the damn truth.

399 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 6:37:08pm

re: #291 Obdicut

No, seriously? No... oh wow.

If there was one man I wouldn't want mocking me, it'd be Colbert. The dude gets to the heart of things.

Seriously. Colbert's website confirms it. Check out "incoming guests".

400 macirish  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 7:06:10pm

The original quote and most of the comment here remind me of the middle-ages debate on how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.

Glad to see Sarah Palin has so many people quaking in their boots.

401 Petero1818  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 7:29:40pm

re: #12 ausador

You are correct. And she handled it by quitting UH and going somewhere where she felt more "comfortable". That is most certainly not a quality one would want in a President, who is supposed to represent all Americans.

402 stayfrosty  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 8:15:46pm

One of my biggest problems with Palin is her very obvious capriciousness. It seems she very rarely finishes something she starts. She went through something four different universities before getting even her BA, with who knows how many major changes. She quit her job as mayor; quit her job on the oil oversight board; and recently quit her job as governor, all before her terms ended. Such a desultory record doesn't exactly reflect presidential qualities IMHO.

403 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 8:16:41pm

re: #400 macirish

The original quote and most of the comment here remind me of the middle-ages debate on how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.

Glad to see Sarah Palin has so many people quaking in their boots.

That "quaking" you think you see is actually laughter.

404 argaman  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 8:38:54pm

re: #403 Charles

Agreed - I don't see a whole lot of quaking going on here...

405 barflytom  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:15:43pm

re: #78 Charles

Who said that?

The smell of straw men is getting overpowering in this thread.

I refer to your comment #4 in this thread

406 NavyRetired  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:20:48pm

Why do most of you hate on the Governer so much?

407 barflytom  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:31:37pm

re: #217 armylaw

No. Being uncomfortable the first time is normal. What makes the charge of racism plausible is the fact that Palin shows no evidence of having learned anything from the experience. It's one thing for a college freshman to be naive. It's quite another for a middle-aged woman who wanted people to seriously consider her to be Vice President.

And your evidence for that is...?

408 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:33:00pm

re: #406 NavyRetired

Why do most of you hate on the Governer so much?

She's not a governor. She quit in the middle of her term.

Remember?


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