Was Russia Behind the Stolen CRU Emails?

Environment • Views: 4,627

A senior member of the IPCC is charging that Russia mounted a sophisticated operation to discredit the Copenhagen climate change summit: Was Russian secret service behind leak of climate-change emails?

The news that a leaked set of emails appeared to show senior climate scientists had manipulated data was shocking enough. Now the story has become more remarkable still.

The computer hack, said a senior member of the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change, was not an amateur job, but a highly sophisticated, politically motivated operation. And others went further. The guiding hand behind the leaks, the allegation went, was that of the Russian secret services.

The leaked emails, which claimed to provide evidence that the unit’s head, Professor Phil Jones, colluded with colleagues to manipulate data and hide “unhelpful” research from critics of climate change science, were originally posted on a server in the Siberian city of Tomsk, at a firm called Tomcity, an internet security business.

The FSB security services, descendants of the KGB, are believed to invest significant resources in hackers, and the Tomsk office has a record of issuing statements congratulating local students on hacks aimed at anti-Russian voices, deeming them “an expression of their position as citizens, and one worthy of respect”. The Kremlin has also been accused of running co-ordinated cyber attacks against websites in neighbouring countries such as Estonia, with which the Kremlin has frosty relations, although the allegations were never proved.

“It’s very common for hackers in Russia to be paid for their services,” Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele, the vice chairman of the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change, said in Copenhagen at the weekend. “It’s a carefully made selection of emails and documents that’s not random. This is 13 years of data, and it’s not a job of amateurs.”

I don’t know if Russia was responsible, but this has never looked like a simple case of computerized vandalism to me. After looking through the stolen data, it’s very clear that whoever did it spent a lot of time picking out the bits that would look the most incriminating, specifically to sabotage the Copenhagen summit.

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217 comments
1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:07:54pm

It was the Spanish Inquisition. No one expects them.

/sorry

2 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:09:18pm

Russia would have a lot of resources they'd want to protect. Doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities to me.

3 political lunatic  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:10:02pm

This reads like something out of the Cold War from the 70's-80's. Why would the Russian gov't care about getting a few old e-mails to disprove climate change? Did they recently come across tons of oil that I'm not aware of?

4 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:11:03pm

re: #3 political lunatic

They have huge energy resources. Including new claims under the thinning ice up north.

5 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:12:32pm

I do agree that this leak was timed to sabotage the Copenhagen summit.

Whomever is behind it, obviously they had this as their agenda.

6 recusancy  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:13:37pm

re: #3 political lunatic

This reads like something out of the Cold War from the 70's-80's. Why would the Russian gov't care about getting a few old e-mails to disprove climate change? Did they recently come across tons of oil that I'm not aware of?

Actually yeah... They're staking claims on the north pole and it's natural resources as it's becoming ice free.

7 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:13:38pm

We will see stunts like this and much more before this is done. There are epic strategic forces in play.

8 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:14:23pm

Speaking of Russia:

Mr. Putin in Perpetuity?

A lot could happen between now and then. Politicians change their minds all the time. Mr. Putin could decide to stay as prime minister and have his sidekick, Dmitri Medvedev, the current president, run again for president. At a minimum, Mr. Putin may be encouraging speculation about his political future to enhance his influence — or to divert attention from more important matters like economic reform or the demographic crisis facing Russia.

Whether or not the two men trade jobs or try to keep the ones they have, Mr. Putin — who first became president in 2000 and would be eligible to run again in 2012 — could conceivably stay in power until at least 2024.

That’s not the usual tenure for a democratically elected leader of a country. But under Mr. Putin, Russia has strayed far from the democratic model. It is a place where journalists and human rights activists are murdered with impunity, political and business opponents are thrown in jail and independent media have been seriously degraded.

9 political lunatic  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:15:14pm

re: #6 recusancy

This is sad. Why does any politician in Congress continue to ignore these facts?

10 Girth  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:15:15pm

If this is true, the wingnuts will have to work extra hard to wrap their heads around it.

Will they welcome Putin rearing his head if he's flying over Alaskan airspace to put a stop to cap and trade?

11 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:15:36pm

The Russians believe the planet is cooling, not warming. This would make more sense that the Russians are behind it. If this is true what do the Russians have to gain from this?

12 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:15:48pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

We will see stunts like this and much more before this is done. There are epic strategic forces in play.

Actually, it's not even the first attempt at hacking or breakin:


University of Victoria spokeswoman Patty Pitts said there have also been attempts to hack into climate scientists’ computers, as well as incidents in which people impersonated network technicians to try to gain access to campus offices and data. However, those incidents took place at the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis, she said — an Environment Canada facility located at the university. As such, Environment Canada would be the investigating agency.

“They have a completely separate computer system from ours,” Ms. Pitts said.

The office break-ins took place late last year, Mr. Weaver said, while the other alleged hacking attempts at his colleagues’ offices — all unsuccessful — took place within the past few months.


Attempted breaches show larger effort to discredit climate science: researcher

(PS I'm not familiar with the National Post but did see this reported elsewhere. )

13 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:17:14pm

What's up with Defenseman, by the way? The blog has been made "private."

14 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:17:18pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

No doubt, but one lesson learned will be to eliminate proprietary data sets and coding from Climate Science.

15 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:18:30pm

re: #12 iceweasel

I have seen similar reports. They make perfect sense. As in the fight is really on now.

16 Claire  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:18:52pm

re: #9 political lunatic

This is sad. Why does any politician in Congress continue to ignore these facts?

What's sad?

17 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:19:07pm

re: #14 Bagua

No doubt, but one lesson learned will be to eliminate proprietary data sets and coding from Climate Science.

There are no "proprietary data sets." All of the data used by the CRU is available from the original sources. All you have to do is ask for it.

I have no idea why you continue trying to float these false claims. You seem pretty rational in most other ways, but on the subject of global warming you're no different from a hardcore denier.

18 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:19:11pm

re: #12 iceweasel

Attempted breaches show larger effort to discredit climate science: researcher

(PS I'm not familiar with the National Post but did see this reported elsewhere. )

It's like I said yesterday: Forget Climategate, this getting to be much more like Watergate.

19 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:20:07pm

Here is the other article-- and this one mentions two earlier successful breakins

Watergate Redux: Break-ins Reported At Another Top Climate Research Center

It has now been reported that the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Center is not the only victim of such a criminal invasion: burglars and hackers have also attacked the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis at the University of Victoria in British Columbia:

Andrew Weaver, a University of Victoria scientist and key contributor to the Nobel prize-winning work of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, says there have been a number of attempted breaches in recent months, including two successful break-ins at his campus office in which a dead computer was stolen and papers were rummaged through.

20 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:20:24pm

re: #14 Bagua

How will one protect work in progress? Unchecked data? I'm concerned about "room to work" issues.

21 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:20:25pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

It's like I said yesterday: Forget Climategate, this getting to be much more like Watergate.

If you mean it's like Watergate in the sense that it's going to backfire and bring down the people who perpetrated these crimes, I agree.

22 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:20:44pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

It's like I said yesterday: Forget Climategate, this getting to be much more like Watergate.

yes, exactly! That was when I posted that thinkprogress article I think.

23 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:21:03pm

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

The Russians believe the planet is cooling, not warming. This would make more sense that the Russians are behind it. If this is true what do the Russians have to gain from this?

But they don't.

Russian Ambassador speaking about the need to address climate change before Copenhagen

Now, Russians could be behind it-- as in, the criminal gangs that control much of Russia. But the small backbone of government they have left that's not engaged in fulltime oligarchy fully endorses AGW.

Another interview

24 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:23:01pm

re: #23 Obdicut

Perhaps the large energy Russian interests like our Exxon can explain this dichotomy.

25 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:24:40pm

re: #23 Obdicut

But they don't.

Russian Ambassador speaking about the need to address climate change before Copenhagen

Now, Russians could be behind it-- as in, the criminal gangs that control much of Russia. But the small backbone of government they have left that's not engaged in fulltime oligarchy fully endorses AGW.

Another interview

They don't, but they do...

Russian Scientists Forecast Global Cooling

Russian scientist says Earth could soon face new Ice Age

26 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:25:36pm

re: #24 Rightwingconspirator

Perhaps the large energy Russian interests like our Exxon can explain this dichotomy.

Well, Russia really does have gigantic gangs running a lot of the country. Putin is kinda half-gangster himself. It's pretty damn Wild West out there. All I'm saying is that for Russian hackers to be behind this would not be surprising, for the actual Russian government-- as in, the portion of the government that actually wants to govern rather that rip people off-- is pretty damn progressive about AGW.

Now, their spy agencies are basically entirely a bunch of criminals right now, so their involvement wouldn't surprise me.

I'm just trying to draw a distinction between the government and the gangs there, inasmuch as one can be drawn.

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:26:20pm

re: #21 Charles

If you mean it's like Watergate in the sense that it's going to backfire and bring down the people who perpetrated these crimes, I agree.

Yep, that's what I mean. The thieves who are breaking in remind me of G. Gordon Liddy. They're going to hurt their own side much worse than they hurt the AGW scientists.

28 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:26:21pm

Russia has a long history of playing both ends against the middle. The fact that they publicly endorse the science of AGW is not evidence that they weren't behind an effort to sabotage Copenhagen.

29 bosforus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:26:37pm

Well, the RWB should be thrilled to know that they're glorifying the work of Russian spies. Reagan would be proud.

30 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:27:28pm

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

The first link references Pravda, the second one is a single Russian astrophysicist, not a climatologist. They have their wingnuts too, I'm guessing.

31 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:28:25pm

re: #28 Charles

Russia has a long history of playing both ends against the middle. The fact that they publicly endorse the science of AGW is not evidence that they weren't behind an effort to sabotage Copenhagen.

Fair enough. I just can't see any reason the semi-responsible part of their government would actually do that, and I don't think Putin and gang give a shit, since they can make boatloads of money either way.

32 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:29:00pm

Cough.

And then there is Russia's outlier status as both having high per capita CO2 and very very high carbon intensity.

Cough .

33 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:30:41pm

re: #28 Charles

Also, remember the big Bali conference a couple of years ago, the one in which the Bush administration was roundly condemned for not being fully invested? Anyway, little constructive dialog came out of that effort, and many people didn't notice, but a few of the Green bloggers/journos did, but the Russians and OPEC were trying to scuttle the talks more than the Bush administration.

Many people don't know that Russia is the leading oil producer in the world. They are also a leading natural gas producer, and have one of the larger reserves of coal.

The fossil fuel exporting nations have much to lose over any agreement that curtails the use of carbon based energy sources.

The Russian economy is dominated by the fuel producers, and it makes sense that the Russians want to protect that.

34 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:31:32pm
Was Russia Behind the Stolen CRU Emails?

I heard it was the CIA.

Revealed: CIA behind Climategate scandal

35 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:32:30pm

The Discovery Institute's Russia Blog

Nothing about Climate-gate there, but some interesting pieces on energy.

36 fon_win  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:32:38pm

So would this qualify as:

Climatehackgate?

37 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:33:01pm

re: #36 fon_win

It already was a hack before this news.

38 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:34:01pm

re: #17 Charles

There are no "proprietary data sets." All of the data used by the CRU is available from the original sources. All you have to do is ask for it.

I have no idea why you continue trying to float these false claims. You seem pretty rational in most other ways, but on the subject of global warming you're no different from a hardcore denier.

The proprietary data sets are the ones that CRU refused to release, this is well established. They have decided to reverse this under pressure of the hack and are in the progress of getting permission to do so. The other proprietary data is the code they used to analyze the data set they developed, and the notes that explain why they adjusted those data sets to make up their own data set.

I am hardly a "hardcore denier", I only challenge certain parts of the AGW theory, and I always support my arguments. Indeed, I am often the one arguing with the real deniers who raise the arguments I find fallacious.

I do respectfully disagree with you in regard to the significance of the CRUgate and appreciate the opportunity to post my dissenting opinions.

39 stayfrosty  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:35:57pm

OT but good to know:

The Weekly Standard - Secret Service Director: Threats Against Obama Not Up Over Other Presidents

You may remember a rash of media reports in August and September about a claim that assassination threats directed at President Obama are up 400 percent over previous presidents, stretching the Secret Service to its limits...

But Director of the Secret Service Mark Sullivan begged to differ at a Congressional hearing over the party crasher incident today:

"'The threats are not up,' Sullivan said, adding that they receive about the same amount of threats against Obama as they did for presidents Clinton and Bush."

He also specifically claimed the 400-percent figure was incorrect and added, according to CBS' Mark Knoller:

"Secret Service Director Mark Sullivan tells House committee reports of greater threats against Pres. Obama are not true."

Rick Sanchez of CNN, The Daily Kos, and other left-leaning outlets happily repeated the story of increased threats, despite its right-wing source, as it dovetailed nicely with the narrative of increasing and dangerous Obama opposition set to explode into racist, right-wing violence...

My apologies if it was already posted.

40 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:36:33pm

And one more thing - India, Brazil and China could not be happier about the whole climategate thing.

They expect to get out of Copenhagen committed to nothing whatsoever except vague promises to cut carbon intensity (which simply happens as a part of economic development in a market economy).

Western governments are desperate for a deal to save face and will probably simply concede to letting them off the hook.

No one is challenging the propaganda that an intensity cut is somehow a carbon output cut. It isn't. Not in the least. CBS mis-reported yesterday that China had committed to "cuts" based on accepting the propaganda uncritically?

The result?

You will have islands of developed, industrialized states where CO2 can be pumped with abandon while the rest of the industrialized world will be on a diet.

Guess where even more industry will move? And will there be less CO2 out there as a result?

No.

41 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:39:35pm

re: #40 karmic_inquisitor

COP15 just got underway in Copenhagen. They're reporting that they're within several gigatons in agreement. However, there are other reports coming in saying that the proposed cuts at COP15 are merely a token gesture.

More to come I'm sure.

42 stayfrosty  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:42:34pm

re: #28 Charles

Russia has a long history of playing both ends against the middle. The fact that they publicly endorse the science of AGW is not evidence that they weren't behind an effort to sabotage Copenhagen.

Very very true. You can especially see this in how they deal with the Iranian nuclear issue, with false promises in the Security Council while they simultaneously build nuclear plants in Iran and make deals to provide them with air defense systems.

43 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:45:43pm

Bad news for Inhofe:

More than 50 papers join in front-page leader article on climate change

Opinion piece to be published in 56 papers across 45 countries – including the Guardian, Le Monde and two Chinese papers

The Guardian has teamed up with more 50 papers worldwide to run the same front-page leader article calling for action at the climate summit in Copenhagen, which begins tomorrow.

This unprecedented project is the result of months of negotiations between the papers to agree on a final text, in a process that mirrors the kind of diplomatic wrangling among the world's governments that is likely to precede any potential deal on climate change.

Fifty-six papers in 45 countries published in 20 different languages have joined the initiative, and will feature the leader in some form on their front pages.

Among the titles taking part are two Chinese papers – the Economic Observer and the Southern Metropolitan – and India's second largest English-language paper, The Hindu.

Some of the world's best known papers, such as Le Monde, El Pais, Russia's Novaya Gazeta and the Toronto Star, are also on board.

SNIP

44 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:46:52pm

re: #41 Gus 802

I'm skeptical that any blow by blow news coming out of the now public negotiations will be anything more meaningful than that which has been leaked out of the private dealings that past couple of months.

Some of the Kyoto signers do appear to be able to reach that earlier goal, while others look like they will fail (and some like Japan will fail badly.)

No one expects these negotiations to bring in the "final answer".

I think what the foreign policy wonks are looking for now is how the actual negotiation procedures are working. That is, how different nations will group together, and which ones give signals that they are more serious than earlier indicated, and which ones are just going through the motions.

IMO any treaty is DOA when it arrives at the US Senate, which pretty much scuttles the entire process for meaningful actual reductions in carbon output (as opposed to the somewhat funky "carbon intensity" numbers as KarmicInq noted.)

Personally I think a more telling political story is how much Sec. Clinton will be visible, vice. President Obama. I'm wondering if Obama has learned to trust her much yet.

45 stayfrosty  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:47:08pm

re: #43 Gus 802

I assure you the Oklahoman isn't one of them.

46 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:48:04pm

re: #28 Charles

Russia has a long history of playing both ends against the middle. The fact that they publicly endorse the science of AGW is not evidence that they weren't behind an effort to sabotage Copenhagen.

Makes one wonder what is really going on, doesn't it?

47 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:51:09pm

re: #38 Bagua

The proprietary data sets are the ones that CRU refused to release, this is well established. They have decided to reverse this under pressure of the hack and are in the progress of getting permission to do so.

Wait, which one is it, did they "refuse to release" them or are they "getting permission" to do so? Both statements cannot simultaneously be true, and it comes off as cognitive dissonance to express them back to back this way. Clearly they do not currently have permission to re-release the data. Data that is available elsewhere so I'm really not sure why you're still using the term "proprietary" in reference to it.

48 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:51:34pm

re: #44 freetoken

Right. The reduction goals are rather flimsy when you come down to it. The means to the end is left to the member states which of course is something I agree with. That would mean congress. From there it would be utilities and industry. It's a rather long term proposition considering it goes up to 100 years and beyond.

49 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:52:08pm

Russia has been getting rich off of increased oil prices. You would think they want to see Cap and Trade, and anything else that raises the price of oil.

50 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:52:43pm

re: #45 stayfrosty

I assure you the Oklahoman isn't one of them.

Probably not.

51 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:53:09pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

Makes one wonder what is really going on, doesn't it?

Sure does.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:54:31pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

Makes one wonder what is really going on, doesn't it?

That's always true when the KGB (or its successors) is involved. James Jesus Angleton didn't call trying to hunt KGB moles a "Hell of Mirrors" for nothing.

53 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:56:43pm

re: #48 Gus 802

The House already passed the bill they intended, and the Senate one is similar (and thus a conference committee would not change much) but frankly the Senate bill won't clear the floor, IMO.

Even if it does, it only really speaks of goals. Goals are nice, but without changing the spending habits of both the government and the private sector those goals will not be reached.

As much as I am convinced that the science behind AGW is fundamentally sound (which has always been my position here, and for which I caught a lot of grief from some now-banned posters), the politics of implementing any change, both here in the US and in other countries, are daunting beyond belief.

We can't even get the Senate to ratify the Law of The Sea Treaty, which is much less intrusive than any effectual climate treaty will turn out to be.

54 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:57:14pm

My fear of the results of the Copenhagen summit? Pretty words, and a potential treaty that will get ratified, then ignored, which is pretty typical of such things. And no real action will take place.

55 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 9:59:46pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

Wait, which one is it, did they "refuse to release" them or are they "getting permission" to do so? Both statements cannot simultaneously be true, and it comes off as cognitive dissonance to express them back to back this way. Clearly they do not currently have permission to re-release the data. Data that is available elsewhere so I'm really not sure why you're still using the term "proprietary" in reference to it.

The "proprietary" bit is how they adjusted the underlying data to create the widely cited CRU data set. They have not released this. Other "proprietary" bits are the code they used to create their widely cited temperature sets, they have not released this either. Without these parts it is impossible to either verify or falsify their published work.

As to the raw data from the stations, that is the element they need permission to release and are in the process of doing. It will, however, be useless in verification/falsification of the CRU work if they do not explain which data sources they used, their location, and how and why they chose to include/exclude or adjust their data.

What will be possible to create is an entirely new data set independent of the CRU one, which I expect will be discarded and no longer cited.

56 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:01:04pm

re: #53 freetoken

Agreed. Any AGW treaty would be DOA in the US Senate, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Nor do I want it to. I'm willing to support action to curb AGW but I am not willing to give international organizations formal powers over our economy. Any enforcement of such powers would be done with a view to hamstringing us to satisfy other nation's Anti-American sentiment.

57 canadhimmis  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:01:50pm

...occam's razor?

...it's also worth considering the most probable source of the emails were from within the CRU itself, an inside leak. An inside leak seems more probable than a computer hacking, Russian in origin or otherwise.
The fact that Professor Philip Jones, the director of the East Anglia Climatic Research Unit, announced that he will step aside from his directorship seems to add some support to the theory that the emails were leaked rather than hacked.

58 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:02:36pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Any AGW treaty would be DOA in the US Senate, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Nor do I want it to. I'm willing to support action to curb AGW but I am not willing to give international organizations formal powers over our economy. Any enforcement of such powers would be done with a view to hamstringing us to satisfy other nation's Anti-American sentiment.

And our elected officials wouldn't need a treaty to decide to wreck the economy. They can do that quite well on their own, thank you.

/S

59 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:02:47pm

re: #44 freetoken

I'm skeptical

Wow, that's a shock!

When did you become a Climate Skeptic?!?1!

60 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:03:42pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Any AGW treaty would be DOA in the US Senate, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Nor do I want it to. I'm willing to support action to curb AGW but I am not willing to give international organizations formal powers over our economy. Any enforcement of such powers would be done with a view to hamstringing us to satisfy other nation's Anti-American sentiment.

There are no mechanisms "to give international organizations formal powers over our economy" as far as I know. Simply overall reduction goals on 6 gases. The economic mechanisms are optional. The was we attain those is as mentioned up to us through congress as previously noted.

61 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:04:12pm

re: #55 Bagua

The "proprietary" bit is how they adjusted the underlying data to create the widely cited CRU data set. They have not released this. Other "proprietary" bits are the code they used to create their widely cited temperature sets, they have not released this either. Without these parts it is impossible to either verify or falsify their published work.

As to the raw data from the stations, that is the element they need permission to release and are in the process of doing. It will, however, be useless in verification/falsification of the CRU work if they do not explain which data sources they used, their location, and how and why they chose to include/exclude or adjust their data.

What will be possible to create is an entirely new data set independent of the CRU one, which I expect will be discarded and no longer cited.

That would be assuming everything that you say above is true, then your scenario would be possible. It may not even be possible for them to reconstruction data sources they used, their location, and how and why they chose to include/exclude or adjust their data considering that, by there own admission, they did not have the data storage space to archive the many iterations of the dataset itself.

62 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:04:30pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

... I am not willing to give international organizations formal powers over our economy.

We already are.

For example, the US is a party to the World Trade Organization, whose arbitration we accept in matters of trade, even when it directly affects elements (e.g., companies) of our economy.

63 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:05:35pm

Total World Oil Supply

Russia is pumping quite a bit lately.

64 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:05:59pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

Exactly, the CRU data set may not even be wrong.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:06:12pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

Excuse the sloppy paragraph construction, it's late... but I suspect that my point came through.

66 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:06:31pm

re: #62 freetoken

We already are.

For example, the US is a party to the World Trade Organization, whose arbitration we accept in matters of trade, even when it directly affects elements (e.g., companies) of our economy.

Economically that's true. There's also countless other trade agreements. However, with the case of COP15 or Kyoto we're free to accomplish the goals using nuclear, wind, solar, or even if we came up with a new way of super clean coal.

67 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:12:39pm

re: #63 Racer X

One thing to keep in mind when looking at those numbers is that what the EIA is calling "oil" is not all oil! To be more accurate it should be labeled "all liquids" for it includes all liquid fuels, even those manufactured by human endeavor (such as biofuels.)

When it comes to what comes out of real oil wells, "crude and condensate" is term that is used.

Nevertheless, it is true that Russia is the big player outside of OPEC.

68 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:12:39pm

What would be the purpose of sabotaging the Copenhagen summit?

Debunk AGW and inhibit restrictions on usage - thereby keeping oil prices low? Culprit = China. Lots of oil imports.

Create a fake scandal in order to increase AGW hype, and ultimately cause higher oil prices? Culprit = Russia. Lots of oil exports.

69 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:13:35pm

re: #67 freetoken

One thing to keep in mind when looking at those numbers is that what the EIA is calling "oil" is not all oil! To be more accurate it should be labeled "all liquids" for it includes all liquid fuels, even those manufactured by human endeavor (such as biofuels.)

When it comes to what comes out of real oil wells, "crude and condensate" is term that is used.

Nevertheless, it is true that Russia is the big player outside of OPEC.

Correct. You can change the product to look at just crude oil.

70 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:13:55pm

Some of the things I see are a little out there.

Should Britain and other 'rich' countries open borders to Climate Refugees?

71 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:15:00pm

re: #70 Gus 802

Some of the things I see are a little out there.

Should Britain and other 'rich' countries open borders to Climate Refugees?

Answer: No. We've got quite enough challenge assimilating the immigrants we already have, thank you.

72 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:15:55pm

That does it. I no longer trust anything or anyone on the internets.

*casts a wary eye at all of you*

73 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:16:37pm

re: #72 Racer X

I suspect everybody.

74 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:17:09pm

Guess what, Fox News has discovered a way to mix the "war on Christmas" with a standard AGW denier canard!

Copenhagen: Christmas Trees Banned But 1,200 Limos are OK?

Participants at Copenhagen's global climate summit will be meeting during the holiday season, but they will not be surrounded by festive Christmas decor, according to Denmark's Foreign Ministry.

Since Christmas is a religious holiday, it has no place at a United Nations event, said officials planning the event.

A sponsor providing fir trees for the conference's Christmas trees learned this the hard way when it was turned away by planners of the international event, the Copenhagen Post reported.

75 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:17:39pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Answer: No. We've got quite enough challenge assimilating the immigrants we already have, thank you.

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”

Get with the program, komrade!

76 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:18:00pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Answer: No. We've got quite enough challenge assimilating the immigrants we already have, thank you.

Yeah, I agree. Now if it was a hypothetical question regarding an actual global calamity then that would be different. Say an asteroid hit a part of the globe or permanent flooding in a region. Then that would be a real case of refugees. Right now those questions are rather nebulous.

77 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:18:50pm

re: #74 freetoken

Guess what, Fox News has discovered a way to mix the "war on Christmas" with a standard AGW denier canard!

Copenhagen: Christmas Trees Banned But 1,200 Limos are OK?

They killed Christmas!
You bastards!

78 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:19:14pm

re: #72 Racer X

That does it. I no longer trust anything or anyone on the internets.

*casts a wary eye at all of you*

re: #74 freetoken

Guess what, Fox News has discovered a way to mix the "war on Christmas" with a standard AGW denier canard!

Copenhagen: Christmas Trees Banned But 1,200 Limos are OK?

Ah, Fox News. The Chicken Little of our time, albeit with cranial rectal inversion.

79 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:19:39pm

re: #78 acwgusa

Ah, Fox News. The Chicken Little of our time, albeit with cranial rectal inversion.

Whoops! Double quote!

80 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:19:56pm

re: #74 freetoken

Guess what, Fox News has discovered a way to mix the "war on Christmas" with a standard AGW denier canard!

Copenhagen: Christmas Trees Banned But 1,200 Limos are OK?

Why if I didn't see it before my very eyes!

Yikes are the obsessed. What do limos have to do with Christmas trees anyway?

81 BryanS  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:20:42pm

re: #74 freetoken

Guess what, Fox News has discovered a way to mix the "war on Christmas" with a standard AGW denier canard!

Copenhagen: Christmas Trees Banned But 1,200 Limos are OK?

Strange, how Christianity, the belief system of a large majority of the country, is subjected to a "War on Christmas". Saw some yard signs today "Keep Christ in Christmas". Tempted to put up some signs "Keep X in X-mas". :)

82 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:20:57pm

re: #72 Racer X

That does it. I no longer trust anything or anyone on the internets.

*casts a wary eye at all of you*

LOL!
*Eyes Racer X with new evil intent*

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:20:58pm

re: #72 Racer X

That does it. I no longer trust anything or anyone on the internets.

*casts a wary eye at all of you*

You can trust me, bro. I'd never steer you wrong.

84 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:20:59pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Why if I didn't see it before my very eyes!

Yikes are the obsessed. What do limos have to do with Christmas trees anyway?

If you give a Beck a Blackboard...

/s

85 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:21:06pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Why if I didn't see it before my very eyes!

Yikes are the obsessed. What do limos have to do with Christmas trees anyway?

Christmas trees suck CO2 out of the air. Limos put it back.

86 SpaceJesus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:21:51pm

why do people have to make such a big deal out of birthday

87 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:21:52pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

You can trust me, bro. I'd never steer you wrong.

I'll get you for that.

88 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:21:59pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

You can trust me, bro. I'd never steer you wrong.

OMG!
My Eyes!!!

89 SpaceJesus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:22:07pm

re: #86 SpaceJesus

why do people have to make such a big deal out of birthday

my birthday that is

90 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:22:45pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

You can trust me, bro. I'd never steer you wrong.

Hey, at least it wasn't a Rickroll. It was a HoffHassle.

91 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:23:03pm

re: #89 SpaceJesus

my birthday that is

Your namesake's birthday...
Just saying!

92 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:23:30pm

re: #90 acwgusa

Hey, at least it wasn't a Rickroll. It was a HoffHassle.

HoffHo?

93 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:24:07pm

re: #84 acwgusa

If you give a Beck a Blackboard...

/s

Liberals
Impounding
Merry
Ornaments

94 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:24:09pm

Off topic, forgive me.
A short film called: Life: A Short Film
Source: Aish HaTorah.

95 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:24:15pm

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

HoffHo?

I thought that was a floor cheeseburger.

96 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:24:25pm

re: #87 Racer X

I'll get you for that.

I'd expect nothing less.

Yes! The Racer X I know and love is back in action!

/It's getting harder and harder to find weird/crappy music videos to spring on you.

97 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:25:34pm

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

HoffHo?

Let's save that for the LNOT. David Hasselhoff stuff works better with beach photos, given his starring on Baywatch.

98 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:26:06pm
99 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:26:34pm

And the real pressing question for 2010:

Not global climate change, not terrorism, not Health care or the economy...

Is Apple going to finally release a tablet next year?

100 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:26:37pm

re: #81 BryanS

Strange, how Christianity, the belief system of a large majority of the country, is subjected to a "War on Christmas". Saw some yard signs today "Keep Christ in Christmas". Tempted to put up some signs "Keep X in X-mas". :)

Merry Malcolm-X-Mas!

///

101 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:27:26pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

I have actually met the man.
He's REALLY tall.
And, like to wear cowboy boots, with heels.
Seems ( according to the tacky tabloids) to have an alcohol problem.
He, he'd fit in here!
'Cept for the tall thingy.

102 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:27:45pm

BTW there was a paper published today in Nature Geoscience that is bound to get attention:

Earth system sensitivity inferred from Pliocene modelling and data

Quantifying the equilibrium response of global temperatures to an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is one of the cornerstones of climate research. Components of the Earth's climate system that vary over long timescales, such as ice sheets and vegetation, could have an important effect on this temperature sensitivity, but have often been neglected. Here we use a coupled atmosphere–ocean general circulation model to simulate the climate of the mid-Pliocene warm period (about three million years ago), and analyse the forcings and feedbacks that contributed to the relatively warm temperatures. Furthermore, we compare our simulation with proxy records of mid-Pliocene sea surface temperature. Taking these lines of evidence together, we estimate that the response of the Earth system to elevated atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is 30–50% greater than the response based on those fast-adjusting components of the climate system that are used traditionally to estimate climate sensitivity. We conclude that targets for the long-term stabilization of atmospheric greenhouse-gas concentrations aimed at preventing a dangerous human interference with the climate system should take into account this higher sensitivity of the Earth system.

Put in a nutshell: the current negotiators at Copenhagen are being far too myopic. The long term changes are greater than just the near term, and only thinking out to 2100 doesn't give the whole picture.

103 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:27:51pm

re: #81 BryanS

Strange, how Christianity, the belief system of a large majority of the country, is subjected to a "War on Christmas". Saw some yard signs today "Keep Christ in Christmas". Tempted to put up some signs "Keep X in X-mas". :)


It could be worse. You could get the really cheesy porn version:

Keep the XXX in X-Mas.

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:28:20pm

re: #89 SpaceJesus

my birthday that is

You are santa?
/

105 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:29:06pm

This story tells me it was almost certainly NOT the Russians. Do we really believe that the KGB is so sloppy as to post the data to a Russian server if they were the ones behind it? Seriously? An amateur could cover his tracks better. The fact the data wound up on a Russian server means NOTHING. Russia and the former Soviet Bloc countries are notoriously lenient on cyber-crime. Anyone, anywhere in the world could have used a Russian server to host the data. This is nothing. Hackers use servers/compromised PCs all over the world for this type of stuff. If the hackers have any clue whatsoever as to what they are doing, we will likely never know who was behind this.

106 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:29:34pm

re: #96 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd expect nothing less.

Yes! The Racer X I know and love is back in action!

/It's getting harder and harder to find weird/crappy music videos to spring on you.

I posted this the other day - check it out:

Looping Around The House

107 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:29:49pm

re: #96 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey!
Nice to "see" you tonight.
Haven't been on at the same time in a while!
How are you doing?
((SB))

108 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:29:51pm

re: #104 Oh no...Sand People!

You are santa?
/

Just don't ask whats in the sack...

/sss

109 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:30:18pm

re: #103 acwgusa

It could be worse. You could get the really cheesy porn version:

Keep the XXX in X-Mas.

SMACK!

110 BryanS  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:30:27pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Merry Malcolm-X-Mas!

///

Heh. A bit too combative of a holiday for my tastes, but whatever flips your wig.

111 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:31:14pm

re: #108 acwgusa

Just don't ask whats in the sack...

/sss

Spacejesus, carries a flounceapult in his sack. He uses it to banish flouncing trolls to the stalker blog.

112 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:31:39pm

re: #103 acwgusa

It could be worse. You could get the really cheesy porn version:

Keep the XXX in X-Mas.

Jingle my bells.

113 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:31:52pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Spacejesus, carries a flounceapult in his sack. He uses it to banish flouncing trolls to the stalker blog.

Is that what he's calling it these days?

114 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:32:14pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Spacejesus, carries a flounceapult in his sack. He uses it to banish flouncing trolls to the stalker blog.

Is that a flounceapult in your sack or are you just happy to...uh... gah...nevermind..
/

115 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:32:37pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

FLINGS them into the stratosphere!
They land with dull thuds.
And, possibly cries of pain, but that has NOT been confirmed!

116 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:32:41pm

re: #112 Racer X

Wow, didn't realize this thread had turned into sack-porn...

117 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:32:49pm

re: #112 Racer X

Jingle my bells.

I think that was $50 down under the bridge. I don't know if it got adjusted for hard times, though.

118 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:33:01pm

re: #102 freetoken

BTW there was a paper published today in Nature Geoscience that is bound to get attention:

Earth system sensitivity inferred from Pliocene modelling and data

Put in a nutshell: the current negotiators at Copenhagen are being far too myopic. The long term changes are greater than just the near term, and only thinking out to 2100 doesn't give the whole picture.

Yeah, but given the reluctance of congress one could say that COP15 is providing at least a compromised goal? Start low and work our way up? I know that Obama's proposal of 17 percent reductions over the next 10 years is getting a lot of flack from the more purist of climatologists.

119 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:33:10pm

re: #112 Racer X

Oh, dear. You DID say that!

120 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:34:35pm

Man you guys gals have dirty minds.

121 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:35:13pm

re: #103 acwgusa

Hey now, I thought we had a deal. You would never mention my early "acting" career, and I would never mention your early career as a set photographer.

122 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:35:37pm

Does Rudolph have a high carbon footprint?
/

123 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:36:11pm

re: #121 Slumbering Behemoth

Great clip, great movie.

124 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:36:12pm

re: #121 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey now, I thought we had a deal. You would never mention my early "acting" career, and I would never mention your early career as a set photographer.

I was young and needed the money!

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:36:36pm

re: #115 Floral Giraffe

FLINGS them into the stratosphere!
They land with dull thuds.
And, possibly cries of pain, but that has NOT been confirmed!

Sometimes they land on the ass. Then you can hear their butthurt screams for miles away.

126 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:37:06pm

re: #122 Oh no...Sand People!

Does Rudolph have a high carbon footprint?
/

No, but he might want to get that nose checked out. It's redder then Bill Clinton's after Hillary got done with him!

127 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:37:46pm

re: #122 Oh no...Sand People!

Does Rudolph have a high carbon footprint?
/

Yes. He passes methane gas, same as any other reindeer. Santa will have to buy carbon credits the same as everyone else.

/

128 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:39:01pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yes. He passes methane gas, same as any other reindeer. Santa will have to buy carbon credits the same as everyone else.

/

That will come out of our children's toys!

/

129 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:39:08pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yes. He passes methane gas, same as any other reindeer. Santa will have to buy carbon credits the same as everyone else.

/

Santa can claim the "I don't really exist" exemption.

130 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:39:23pm

re: #120 Racer X

You KNOW you like it!

131 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:39:23pm

re: #128 Gus 802

That will come out of our children's toys!

/

It's offset by the lead.

132 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:39:48pm

re: #107 Floral Giraffe

How are you doing?

Drunk and smarmy, {FG}. How about you?

133 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:40:12pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yes. He passes methane gas, same as any other reindeer. Santa will have to buy carbon credits the same as everyone else.

/

Sorry little Timmy, Santa produced too many greenhouse gases up north...had to shut down Christmas.
/

134 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:40:23pm

re: #131 acwgusa

It's offset by the lead.

Ah, correct.

Eugenics!

/

135 acwgusa  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:40:35pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes they land on the ass. Then you can hear their butthurt screams for miles away.

The poor ass. Whatever did the donkey do to them?

136 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:40:55pm

re: #118 Gus 802

...Obama's proposal of 17 percent reductions over the next 10 years is getting a lot of flack from the more purist of climatologists.

I'm not sure "purist" would be the best term to use.

Ultimately most of us are doomers at heart, even those of us who think we aren't. There is quite a bit of fatalism floating around in our society. We don't really believe we can have much effect on our surroundings or the future.

And that approach to life may be a very accurate view of reality.

Today's paper backs up one of Hansen's contentions (born out of paleoclimate considerations and not large coupled models), that is the long term changes of even our current perturbations (ignoring those we will do by simply continuing on course) to the system will cause very significant changes over the longer term (multiple centuries.) That is why he backs the 350.org movement.

Perhaps the pessimism of Cato the Doomer is the only way to go, but being a doomer does sort of take the wind out of one's sails.

137 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:41:33pm

re: #133 Oh no...Sand People!

Sorry little Timmy, Santa produced too many greenhouse gases up north...had to shut down Christmas.
/

I'm sorry son, but Santa's workshop sank to the bottom of the Arctic Sea and he and all of his little elves drowndeded.

//

138 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:41:40pm

re: #132 Slumbering Behemoth

According to Racer X, I have a dirty mind.
LOL!
Having fun! Hope all is well with you.

139 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:42:07pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yes. He passes methane gas, same as any other reindeer. Santa will have to buy carbon credits the same as everyone else.

/

Well, it's not a reindeer, but...

Bud Light commercial

140 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:42:22pm

re: #137 Gus 802

heh.

141 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:42:33pm

re: #136 freetoken

We all die, eventually!
///

142 BryanS  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:42:49pm

re: #137 Gus 802

I'm sorry son, but Santa's workshop sank to the bottom of the Arctic Sea and he and all of his little elves drowndeded.

//

Well, merry f'ing christmas to you to

//

143 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:42:54pm

re: #136 freetoken

I was just stuck on that word actually. I mean I just picked out purist.

144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:43:01pm

re: #116 lightspeed

Hey, I just had an itch that needed scratching. Just because that turns you on doesn't mean it's porn.

/wait, what?

145 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:44:46pm

re: #136 freetoken

Cato actually seems to enjoy his life, even though he's a doomer. He's certainly happier than I am.

BTW: 15,000 Karma. You like me, you really like me! [takes bow]

146 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:44:55pm

re: #123 lightspeed

Wow. I'm surprised that someone else actually saw that movie. I thought it was hilarious.

147 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:45:53pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

15001 actually.
Yes, I do like you.
{{DF}}
Smoochies too!

148 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:46:36pm

re: #144 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey, I just had an itch that needed scratching. Just because that turns you on doesn't mean it's porn.

/wait, what?

I usually keep my sack scratching to myself, unless I am playing sports.

149 ghazidor  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:47:08pm

Russian hackers are also the ones stealing your socks out of the dryer, or was that gnomes, or the aliens I can't remember.

150 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:47:21pm

re: #146 Slumbering Behemoth

One of my favorites. Got to love Matt Stone and Trey Parker.

151 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:47:28pm

Now nothing surprises me.

152 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:48:05pm

re: #147 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
I remember one panicked night...
And that's all I'm gonna say!

Hee Hee.

153 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:48:41pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

Hmm, almost down-dinged you, just to be a spoiler...

/not really

154 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:48:47pm

re: #151 Irenicum

Why is that?
(What'd I miss???)

155 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:49:22pm

re: #138 Floral Giraffe

That's a good thing. Women who posses dirty minds are a quickly dwindling demographic on this planet. I feel it is my duty to preserve their uniqueness and beauty by any means necessary.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:49:24pm

re: #148 lightspeed

I usually keep my sack scratching to myself, unless I am playing sports.

SMACK!

157 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:51:00pm

re: #154 Floral Giraffe

Just commenting on the original topic. Though I am in the middle of reading a piece on conspiracism and its roots. Batshit crazy stuff. So the Russia, climategate thing doesn't surprise me in the least.

158 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:51:11pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. I love to smack balls. In sports, I mean. Oh, dear.

159 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:51:11pm

re: #148 lightspeed

Hey, I was keeping it to myself. You were the one who insisted on peeking.

160 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:51:30pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

SMACK!

Wow...that's gotta hurt. Hope he was wearing ye olde cup.

161 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:53:49pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

He's certainly happier than I am.

One wishes you happiness in the upcoming season of joy!

Robbing my Joy

162 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:54:40pm

re: #160 Oh no...Sand People!

Wow...that's gotta hurt. Hope he was wearing ye olde cup.

He wouldn't need one. DF-delivered smacks are to the head, so a cup does nothing.

163 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:54:58pm

Let's see, Russian hacking=ball smacking

This thread has gone a bit downhill.

164 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:55:41pm

re: #136 freetoken

I used to be quite the environmentalist. I used to have documents all over my room as a teenager including RARE literature from the Forest Service. Ansel Adams, Colin Fletcher, Helen Caldicott (yeah I know she's anti-nuke but I'm not), Sierra Club, hiking, biking, camping, running, etc. I studied satellite solar power stations. Wrote to congressmen, got petitions signed, etc. I used to think of myself as an eclectic utopian futurist of sorts. During that time I was rather fatalistic about our environmental future.

Over the years I lost interest. I still have an interest in the environment and the future of humankind but it's not the same as it was in my youth. I've replaced my global fatalism with my own personal fatalistic view. At times I find it frustrating that during the 1980s some of these ideas were largely ignored. Frustrating in that it took over 20 years for people to suddenly start thinking about the future of the world. But that doesn't last for long because my own personal grief has overtaken those worries.

165 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:55:53pm

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

He wouldn't need one. DF-delivered smacks are to the head, so a cup does nothing.

Uh...*backs away slowly*...
///

166 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:56:13pm

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

He wouldn't need one. DF-delivered smacks are to the head, so a cup does nothing.

Man, I really don't want to go there, but...nevermind.

167 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:57:13pm

re: #165 Oh no...Sand People!

Uh...*backs away slowly*...
///

Don't worry, I haven't actually smacked someone since high school, and i'd never actually smack any of you folks.

168 Racer X  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:57:19pm

re: #151 Irenicum

Now nothing surprises me.

Au contraire.

Salami Fighting Association

169 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:57:23pm

re: #166 lightspeed

Man, I really don't want to go there, but...nevermind.

GTMA... or DTMA...or uh..nevermind..

170 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 10:58:10pm

re: #103 acwgusa

It could be worse. You could get the really cheesy porn version:

Keep the XXX in X-Mas.

Brings new meaning to Ho-ho-ho.

171 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:00:26pm

re: #154 Floral Giraffe

This is the link I'm referring to. The source is pretty left/progressive, so I have my issues with some of their presuppositions. But what I've read so far (1/3) I largely agree. It's definitely going into my "extremist links" analysis file.

172 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:00:53pm

re: #164 Gus 802

[...]But that doesn't last for long because my own personal grief has overtaken those worries.

One wishes you joy to overcome your grief,

love is the greatest healer.

Joy Division - New Dawn Fades

173 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:01:00pm

re: #170 Sharmuta

And on that note,
I'm off to sleepytimes.
Goodnight, dear lizards.
Sleep tight.

(Scratch whatever you want, just don't tell me about it, MMMk?)

174 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:01:29pm

re: #168 Racer X

Au contraire.

Salami Fighting Association

That was evil. Take it back. Please erase it from my brain!

[Video]

175 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:02:52pm

Gotta go buy some stuff. later all.

176 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:03:43pm

re: #164 Gus 802

Thanks for sharing your story. Yes, different times in our lives lead us to consider different priorities.

I'm just a bit miffed these days that so much of my society around me doesn't seem to give a damn about much, other than who is winning the latest NFL game or perhaps if it will be cloudy or rainy tomorrow.

Ultimately I think our society in particular, the US social structure, will bend to the forces of time and our perception of our "special" place in history will get severely restructured. Climate change is hardly the only problem on our plate.

Too many Americans IMO have a comic-book view of the US and how the world works, at least when they converse or write about the topic. In daily life they have to deal with all the vagaries of being an animal, from headaches to constipation to food poisoning, etc.

Our limitations are being discovered daily on an individual basis... and I propose that is what is going on at a national level too, and what is fueling a great deal of the "revanchism".

177 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:05:11pm

Climate Change policy getting a bit heated down under:

Abbott's climate change stand 'bullshit': Turnbull

178 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:05:30pm

re: #176 freetoken

Good post, well said.

179 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:06:15pm

re: #172 Bagua

One wishes you joy to overcome your grief,

love is the greatest healer.

Joy Division - New Dawn Fades


Thanks Bagua.

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:07:47pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

Nice.

181 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:08:31pm

re: #164 Gus 802

I don't know the details of your story. But your words spoke to experiences that are familiar to me. Deep grief is all too familiar to me as well.

182 freetoken  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:09:13pm

For reference, something to bookmark:

UNFCCC Webcast

183 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:09:23pm

re: #177 freetoken

Climate Change policy getting a bit heated down under:

Abbott's climate change stand 'bullshit': Turnbull

So far, the ousting of the Australian opposition leader is the biggest post CRU theft fallout to date.

184 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:09:24pm

Yep, so I ask again, what do you do when the rest of the world chooses not to buy into cutting emissions?

185 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:09:47pm

re: #168 Racer X

Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

186 lightspeed  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:10:17pm

re: #164 Gus 802

But that doesn't last for long because my own personal grief has overtaken those worries.

I feel for you. Your grief is a reflection of who you are. It will always be there, but you must move on past it. I wish you strength and love.

187 fire at night  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:11:21pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

Russia would have a lot of resources they'd want to protect. Doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities to me.

At the very least, it needs to be examined what they would stand to potentially gain from such disinformation on a wide scale. I'm not really really a fan of many tinfoil hat conspiracies, but its just one more "reason" for Russia or other major world polluters (China namely) that they can use as an excuse to stay away from, or avoid signing any binding international environmental agreement serves their own interest in the long run economically. The more they can produce (and thus produce more waste/emmisions/etc as a byproduct) within their aging industrial sectors serves to strengthen their own domestic need. Any discrediting or controversial variables discounting the effects of man-made climatology is just one of many things to air out in a laundry list of reasons for them to be at the table, but not partaking in the same meal anyone else maybe.

/just my 2 cents

188 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:16:11pm

re: #176 freetoken

Actually, what you just wrote reminds me of what I've noticed among writers both far left and far right. They each seem to exhibit anti naturalist tendencies. The far right does so out of their typically religious convictions whereas as the far left does so from their antipathy to the religious view. Each sees humanity as a virus that has infected the "pristine" environment apart from us. Neither sees humanity as being part and parcel of the natural order. In that sense, these seemingly polar opposites are actually their evil twins skippy. IOW they're really not that different than each other. Still working on the details of this assessment.

189 ghazidor  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:16:41pm

re: #184 jayzee

Yep, so I ask again, what do you do when the rest of the world chooses not to buy into cutting emissions?

Depends what you mean, Europe has been kind enough to lead the way thereby showing the world just what a pile of shit Cap & Trade plans are at least. People have realized that it doesn't work and is just another get rich quick scam by the market traders. That doesn't mean that countries are not going to find other ways to cut emissions though, they will.

190 jayzee  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:16:43pm
China and India and the rest of the developing world need to be involved. But since per capita they use far less energy than the West, and have been doing so for much shorter periods of time, and are using fossil fuels to pull people out of poverty, their involvement needs to be different. The West is going to have to use some tiny percentage of the wealth it built up filling the atmosphere with carbon to transfer technology north to south so that these countries can meet their legitimate development needs without burning all their coal.

Redistribution of wealth. Why I am skeptical of political "SOLUTIONS"

[Link: www.350.org...]

191 Cheechako  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:19:31pm

re: #105 lightspeed

This story tells me it was almost certainly NOT the Russians. Do we really believe that the KGB is so sloppy as to post the data to a Russian server if they were the ones behind it? Seriously? An amateur could cover his tracks better. The fact the data wound up on a Russian server means NOTHING. Russia and the former Soviet Bloc countries are notoriously lenient on cyber-crime. Anyone, anywhere in the world could have used a Russian server to host the data. This is nothing. Hackers use servers/compromised PCs all over the world for this type of stuff. If the hackers have any clue whatsoever as to what they are doing, we will likely never know who was behind this.


I believe it was an inside person who released the data. I saw one email dated about 3 years ago from a NOAA scientist to the CRU group warning them there might be an "inside leak" as some unpublished CRU information had recently appeared in a newspaper.

192 Irenicum  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:20:12pm

G'nite kids. Work not too far off beckons.

193 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:20:26pm

re: #181 Irenicum

I don't know the details of your story. But your words spoke to experiences that are familiar to me. Deep grief is all too familiar to me as well.

I thought things would be different but I guess I'm used to life not having turned out as I thought it would. Maybe it largely due to poor planning my part. For me the grief is largely physical although I guess being distanced from any healthy personal relationships is part of it.

194 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:23:44pm

re: #190 jayzee

Redistribution of wealth. Why I am skeptical of political "SOLUTIONS"

[Link: www.350.org...]

I don't understand that. Why do they say the West and single out the United States? Don't they realize that many people in this country aren't even near being affluent? That most of them struggle to make ends meet. That the high CO2 emissions aren't due because of lifestyles but because of automobile transportation? Some of the worst polluting cars are owned by the poor.

195 Bagua  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:23:53pm

Just please remember Gus,

You know there's good times here, but better down the road. If I live to see tomorrow, it's down the road I go!

Good Times - Lightnin' Hopkins

196 jim_beam  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:25:22pm

The chinese were never going to agree to anything at Copenhagen, nor were the indians, russians, eastern europeans, canadians, africans, south americans. who is left?

Copenhagen is a joke, and here is a hint, it's not because of some russian hacker.

197 Gus  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:26:14pm

re: #186 lightspeed

I feel for you. Your grief is a reflection of who you are. It will always be there, but you must move on past it. I wish you strength and love.

Thanks lightspeed. I try and it come and goes.

198 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Dec 6, 2009 11:41:02pm

re: #28 Charles

Russia has a long history of playing both ends against the middle. The fact that they publicly endorse the science of AGW is not evidence that they weren't behind an effort to sabotage Copenhagen.

Spy vs Spy? Quick, call John LeCarre, it'll be a bestseller and a movie!

199 srjh  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:18:21am

We should be careful not to replace one conspiracy with another here - lest we start looking like conspiracy theorists ourselves.

This is something to take a true skeptical approach about - that is, considering it only a possibility until more evidence becomes available, rather than the "skeptical" approach denialists make when the evidence is available, they'd just prefer to ignore it.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for the Russians to be responsible for it, and if proven it would be a real "Watergate" analogy to put the original to shame, and would blow much of the right-wing denial movement out of the water. At the moment, it's just interesting speculation and we should keep that in mind.

200 chouch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:55:55am

Sukka blayat!

201 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:40:27am

Notice how, whenever there's a sensational computer hacking in the news, the culprit is either a geo-political adverasary or some young computer wunderkind?

202 deegee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:53:00am

Give us all a break. Russian Secret Service?!? Wunderkind hackers!?! Odds on it was a whistleblower from within the CRU.

203 ulmsey123  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:59:41am

The UN funds the IPCC. The IPCC promotes the theory of man made global warming. Governments react to this by creating new taxes and laws controlling the activities of business, individuals and government, but never actually reducing the "culprit" that will destroy the planet.
Russia is now mentioned as being involved in the email theft? The CIA? A conspiracy??
This is shaping up to be a wild ride. I'd bet a dollar that this is all a power struggle between "world government" via the UN and the large powers.
I know it sounds wacky right wing...but let's sit back and watch this unfurl. I suspect this is only the very tip of a very big iceberg that refuses to melt.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

204 Olsonist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:44:20am

The CRU hack is like nirtherism: once the controversy is started it's self-perpetuating:

1. Provide your birth certificate. Birth certificate provided.
2. Why aren't you providing your real birth certificate?

That the CRU emails were stolen makes it look even more like disinformation. Science lives on publicly available repeatable data and techniques. On the other hand, disinformation lives on controversy.

If you break the audience for this stuff up you get the usual triage:

1. The rational - waste of time
2. The independents - fear, uncertainty and doubt at first, but nothing long term
3. The deniers - more fodder

I'd even go so far as to say that hard core deniers won't even remember this in 6-9 months. They'll be on to the next manufactured controversy.

Instead, I think it's important to bring the stolen CRU emails up in counterargument. Just like at a certain point the Right Wing would like the nirthers having served their purpose to go away, at a certain point the deniers will want the stolen CRU emails to go down the memory hole. Remind them.

205 Achilles Tang  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:55:03am

I am still holding my breath waiting for some news service to comment on the apparent fact that there seem to be precisely 3 sentences picked out of 13 years of messages that "prove" a giant conspiracy.

Perhaps we could ask Colbert to think about it? I'll send him an email.

206 Neo_  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:17:31am

Frankly, it doesn't matter if these e-mails were hacked by the Russians, space aliens or Jimmy Neutron. Many of the senders and receivers of these e-mails have said they are authentic.

207 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:00:43am
208 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:15:22am
209 Achilles Tang  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:16:04am

re: #207 marksstudio

The info is looked at by the unwashed, deemed to be 'cherrypicked' by the Head Druids, and the General Public is scolded for paying attention to it, and having the temerity to ask questions about it, and that's bad? How?

Because morons like you pop out the woodwork like termites at times like this and find three sentences to pick out of a decade of emails, and you think you have something relevant to science to talk about.

Your stupidity is incredible.

210 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:39:58am
211 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:46:01am

Another moron bites the dust.

212 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:49:18am

We seem to have quite a few people who are heavily invested in the idea that this was a "whistleblower" and not a criminal.

"Whistleblowers" don't usually cherry-pick through 13 years of emails and post them anonymously on the Internet.

It's a curious rationalization, and it seems obvious that the purpose is to attempt to whitewash what happened so they can dismiss the fact that this was a crime.

213 kittysaidwoof  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:09:21am

This is simply absurd. Russia has no interest in spending any resource on a petty fight like this which serves no useful purpose. Russia will agree to what it feels is in its interest and could help it achieve its goals of increasing its influence and it will simply ignore parts of any agreement it doesn't feel like obliging with. Its not like Russia is any serious pressure to agree to anything either externally or internally. This is hardly an important topic in Russia.

214 bunnymud  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:18:16am

I thought this issue was supposed to be dead by now???

215 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:49am

re: #214 bunnymud

I thought this issue was supposed to be dead by now???

It is dead. It's being kept alive on artificial life support by climate change deniers, desperately hoping they can hoodwink some more peope.

216 Achilles Tang  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:58:14am

I can buy this with little trouble, although I don't know if has been proven or that it would have to be an officially sanctioned operation.

Russia is the place to be if one is a phisher or other internet criminal, and all the government requires is that you stick to stealing from other countries.

The other reason I think it may be true is that the conspiratorially inclined deniers who are the ones making all the noise, as opposed to those skeptical for one reason or another, are so obviously stupid that it is hard to imagine they could pull something like this off.

217 Olsonist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:18:47pm

re: #213 kittysaidwoof

This is simply absurd. Russia has no interest in spending any resource on a petty fight like this which serves no useful purpose. ...

Oil and gas dominate Russian exports, so Russia remains highly dependent upon the price of energy.


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