Why I Left the Right, Exhibit A

Politics • Views: 2,822

Because the wackos have taken over.

Should the “Tea Party” movement organize itself to run congressional candidates across the country, it would poll better than the Republican Party, according to a new survey by Rasmussen Reports.

In the national telephone poll of 1,000 likely voters released Monday, 23 percent said they preferred to vote for a candidate from the yet unformed “Tea Party” for Congress in 2010. The Republican Party trailed the non-existent political organization by 5 percentage points, getting the support of 18 percent of respondents.

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506 comments
1 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:53:16am

As stated on the previous thread, I think this has a lot more to do with folks desiring some fiscal responsibility more than any real desire for tea-party kookiness.

2 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:54:25am

Here's the short version:

In a three-way Generic Ballot test, the latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds Democrats attracting 36% of the vote. The Tea Party candidate picks up 23%, and Republicans finish third at 18%. Another 22% are undecided.

3 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:26am

Reposting some thoughts:

I think the poll just shows what aspect of conservatism should be pandered to. Folks want a fiscal message, and are telling the pollster they'd vote for anyone promoting it.

It's this aspect of conservatism that put the GOP in power in the mid-90s, and was the aspect of conservatism they kicked to the curb along with Newt Gingrich later. Since then, it's been more social issues, and the best of conservative principles has been undermined.

Yet people still want to work on fixing spending issues, and improving our economy and education so that America's future can be brighter, but very few are discussing these points. Instead, we are discussing one nontroversy after another. It's frustrating, and with that feeling of frustration, we long for a candidate or party that will speak to us. I'm not so sure a Tea Party will work, but maybe a RINO! party would.

4 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:42am

Thanks Avanti for the brief version but still...How depressing.

5 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:03am

re: #3 Sharmuta

Reposting some thoughts:

I think the poll just shows what aspect of conservatism should be pandered to. Folks want a fiscal message, and are telling the pollster they'd vote for anyone promoting it.

It's this aspect of conservatism that put the GOP in power in the mid-90s, and was the aspect of conservatism they kicked to the curb along with Newt Gingrich later. Since then, it's been more social issues, and the best of conservative principles has been undermined.

Yet people still want to work on fixing spending issues, and improving our economy and education so that America's future can be brighter, but very few are discussing these points. Instead, we are discussing one nontroversy after another. It's frustrating, and with that feeling of frustration, we long for a candidate or party that will speak to us. I'm not so sure a Tea Party will work, but maybe a RINO! party would.

But a RINO party would just be pandering to what some conservatives want. Wouldn't want any of that pandering going on.

6 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:08am

Oh dear merciful heavens. I'm a ...shudder... MODERATE!

sob.

7 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:43am

re: #1 rwdflynavy

I'm not sure they're so separable. Many of the Tea-Party-esque 'fiscal responsibility' things i hear amount to "Let's be penny smart and pound foolish".

The other thing about the Tea Party stuff is that it seems, to me, to be almost entirely domestic in its outlook. I think people are more interested, in this point in time, in our domestic affairs than foreign ones.

I really don't know what to make of it, and I'll have to think about it some more.

8 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:44am

I think this might be more of an "anybody but the current jokers on Capitol Hill" sentiment than an indication of a fundamental change in political attitudes.

9 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:56am

re: #3 Sharmuta

Reposting some thoughts:

I think the poll just shows what aspect of conservatism should be pandered to. Folks want a fiscal message, and are telling the pollster they'd vote for anyone promoting it.

It's this aspect of conservatism that put the GOP in power in the mid-90s, and was the aspect of conservatism they kicked to the curb along with Newt Gingrich later. Since then, it's been more social issues, and the best of conservative principles has been undermined.

Yet people still want to work on fixing spending issues, and improving our economy and education so that America's future can be brighter, but very few are discussing these points. Instead, we are discussing one nontroversy after another. It's frustrating, and with that feeling of frustration, we long for a candidate or party that will speak to us. I'm not so sure a Tea Party will work, but maybe a RINO! party would.

I just wanted to post your repost.

10 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:58:24am

At least one Democrat already lost to someone from the so-called "Tax Revolt" Party:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I have to admit that political debates that turn on who physically throws the most tea into the harbor would be pretty entertaining.

11 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:58:36am

Here's the thing: The Tea Party movement was primarily advertised to the American people as grassroots fiscal conservatism and responsibility. A lot of Americans don't know what kind of nutjobs are really running the tea parties, even despite the coverage they've been getting. And so Americans are readily turning to a message they desperately want to hear, while being ignorant of the madness behind the method. And despite all this, I guarantee the political analysts will get this all wrong and will continue to push the nontroversies and the nutjobs, thinking that this is what Americans want to hear.

12 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:59:10am

So who do they align themselves with in order to have their interests heard?
The Democrats? And the Republicans sold totally out the last 8 years.
I can't fault honest people for trying but I also recognize there are some really weird types mingling amongst the crowds of ordinary Joes.

13 researchok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:59:35am

re: #1 rwdflynavy

As stated on the previous thread, I think this has a lot more to do with folks desiring some fiscal responsibility more than any real desire for tea-party kookiness.

Ross Perot had big numbers too. I wonder how much of the numbers really represent frustration with the status quo.

14 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:00:00am

re: #1 rwdflynavy

As stated on the previous thread, I think this has a lot more to do with folks desiring some fiscal responsibility more than any real desire for tea-party kookiness.

I would agree with that premise. Unfortunately the nutjobs are there also.

15 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:00:09am

I suspect this will end up like most third party efforts in the Legislative elections. There will be lots of heat and noise, supported by special interest stories in the media (sexy sells) and a turnout of about 1-3% of actual third part voters in the election.

This could tip close races but if history is our guide the Dems and Repubs will carry the majority of voters and the mid-term election will swing towards the minority party.

16 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:00:10am

re: #3 Sharmuta

I agree spending is a issue that the GOP should hammer.There is some good news about the 351 billion TARP bill, it's being reduced by 200 billion. Any bets they'll spend the "savings ?"

TARP.

17 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:00:16am

I don't know how to read that poll.

Part of me says that respondents think that the Republican Party was just as able to run up deficits and expand government as Democrats are. That after running for years in favor of small government.

But the other part of me knows that is what I want to think. It is the same mental trap that economic conservatives lull themselves into every time the vote "R" which results in policy changes reflecting on social issues but an ever expanding government taking an ever larger slice of the GDP and claiming ever expanding powers as it seeks to mediate all sorts of activities and pursuits.

At least I am aware now of my capacity to rationalize data.

2 facts to be mindful of -

1) Bill Clinton was the only POTUS to run a surplus in the last 40 years.
2) The socon wingnuts took over the GOP a very long time ago and, just when moderates got a toe hold in the GOP again on the issue of deficits, the wingnuts came up with Tea Parties.

18 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:01:13am

While there are certainly fringe elements present at tea parties (of which I have attended several and noticed the wackos), most of the people present are strict fiscal conservatives. Social conservatism should play little to no role to the tea partiers. To echo some of the statements above, this poll is reflective of the public's response to TARP, cap and trade, and health care reform (aka government ownership of the health care industry).

Charles, I don't understand why you think a fiscal conservative movement is such a bad thing.

19 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:01:41am

re: #11 thedopefishlives

Here's the thing: The Tea Party movement was primarily advertised to the American people as grassroots fiscal conservatism and responsibility. A lot of Americans don't know what kind of nutjobs are really running the tea parties, even despite the coverage they've been getting. And so Americans are readily turning to a message they desperately want to hear, while being ignorant of the madness behind the method. And despite all this, I guarantee the political analysts will get this all wrong and will continue to push the nontroversies and the nutjobs, thinking that this is what Americans want to hear.

Indeed. Many of these Tea Party leaders are the same social conservatives the RINOs are trying to get away from.

20 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:01:46am

re: #16 avanti

I agree spending is a issue that the GOP should hammer.There is some good news about the 351 billion TARP bill, it's being reduced by 200 billion. Any bets they'll spend the "savings ?"

TARP.

I heard this morning that Democrats want to spend, spend, spend it.

21 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:01:47am

re: #11 thedopefishlives

Here's the thing: The Tea Party movement was primarily advertised to the American people as grassroots fiscal conservatism and responsibility. A lot of Americans don't know what kind of nutjobs are really running the tea parties, even despite the coverage they've been getting.

And that's exactly my point. The wackos have taken over.

22 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #16 avanti

I agree spending is a issue that the GOP should hammer.There is some good news about the 351 billion TARP bill, it's being reduced by 200 billion. Any bets they'll spend the "savings ?"

TARP.

I bet it's already spent.

23 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:02:24am

It seems that Tea Partiers traffic in outrage and they want their party to vocally and actively express this outrage. Keeps making me think of the citizens of south park:

Townsfolk: Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble...
Mayor McDaniels: People, people, calm down.
Randy: Well what are we gonna do, Mayor?! We have to stop these abductors from being able to get into our town!
Townsfolk: Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble...
Mayor McDaniels: Yes, but standing out here yelling "Rabble rabble rabble" isn't going to help anything.
Jimbo: Well we don't know what else to do, Mayor!
Townsfolk: Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble.
Mayor McDaniels: People, what do you think we need to do?
Gerald: Uh, well, we need to find a way to close our town off from unwanted strangers!
Sheila: Yes, we need a barrier to protect our kids.
Townsfolk: Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble...
Randy: Wait, that's it. A wall. We could build a huge city wall all around South Park so that we have complete control over who comes in.
Richard: That's... not a bad idea, a city wall.

Rabble! Rabble Rabble Rabble!

24 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #18 mwalke5

While there are certainly fringe elements present at tea parties (of which I have attended several and noticed the wackos), most of the people present are strict fiscal conservatives. Social conservatism should play little to no role to the tea partiers. To echo some of the statements above, this poll is reflective of the public's response to TARP, cap and trade, and health care reform (aka government ownership of the health care industry).

Charles, I don't understand why you think a fiscal conservative movement is such a bad thing.

You don't understand a very simple fact -- the tea parties are RUN by the nutjobs. There are very bad people at the top of this so-called "movement."

25 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:02:43am

re: #6 DaddyG

Oh dear merciful heavens. I'm a ...shudder... MODERATE!

sob.

We will work on that with you if you need help.:))
///

26 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:03:18am

re: #17 karmic_inquisitor

2) The socon wingnuts took over the GOP a very long time ago and, just when moderates got a toe hold in the GOP again on the issue of deficits, the wingnuts came up with Tea Parties.

Exactly.

27 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:03:43am

re: #14 Blueheron

I would agree with that premise. Unfortunately the nutjobs are there also.

You are correct.

28 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:04:10am

re: #24 Charles

You don't understand a very simple fact -- the tea parties are RUN by the nutjobs. There are very bad people people at the top of this so-called "movement."

Yes. The thing is, I don't think the popularity of the movement in this poll has anything to do with the nutjobs, but rather, is in spite of it. Call me an optimist, but I tend to think most people just don't know, rather than actually agree with them. All that being said, it would be bad if this ignorance led to the idiots actually getting elected. Someone with an ounce of sense actually needs to come up with a Common Sense Party or some such thing, with all of the fiscal conservatism and none of the bullshit.

29 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:04:27am

re: #25 Blueheron

We will work on that with you if you need help.:))
///

Dear Lizards- I just want to minimize government interference and budgets without legalizing pot. Is there a party for me?

30 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:04:51am

re: #18 mwalke5

Charles, I don't understand why you think a fiscal conservative movement is such a bad thing.

And by the way, that's not only insulting, it's a complete straw man. Being opposed to the Ron Paulians, racists, and far right extremists who run the tea parties says absolutely nothing about my views on fiscal conservatism.

31 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:04:54am

Tea Partiers are popular when using generalities, but when they have to get specific, they don't have the coherence of even a third party, and third parties are notorious for blowing apart too.

Tea partiers turn on each other

After emerging out of nowhere over the summer as a seemingly potent and growing political force, the tea party movement has become embroiled in internal feuding over philosophy, strategy and money and is at risk of losing its momentum.

The grass-roots activists driving the movement have become increasingly divided on such core questions as whether to focus their efforts on shaping policy debates or elections, work on a local, regional, state or national level or closely align themselves with the Republican Party, POLITICO found in interviews with tea party organizers in Washington and across the country.

[...]

32 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:05:20am

re: #24 Charles

Charles, I don't think its fair to generalize the "tea party movement" as a unified movement. They are set up independently, typically by normal people, in each city where they are present. It is not some conspiratorial dark organization. It is not even an organization at all. Yes, the crazies like Glenn Beck and Palin (sorry I don't like them either) like to score popularity points by drumming up support for the tea partiers, but they are NOT the ones who organize the vast majority of the tea party rallies.

Generalizations are always dangerous.

33 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:05:29am

FYI:

Questions asked in the poll

34 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:05:36am

re: #28 thedopefishlives

Call me an optimist...

You are an optimist.

You are welcome.

35 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:05:49am

re: #24 Charles

You don't understand a very simple fact -- the tea parties are RUN by the nutjobs. There are very bad people people at the top of this so-called "movement."

Looks like TARP revisionism has taken hold. A lot of people seem to forget its origins.

Where I live we'd never get a Tea Party candidate making any headway in any election, period. It's a sealed Blue district for life. I given the choice in a national election I'd vote for Democrat to keep those Tea Party charlatans out of power.

36 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:05:54am

Well, an organized Tea Party will prove one old adage. A fool and his money are soon parted.

37 Cineaste  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:06:06am

In other news, the Republican party also loses to Rumplestiltskin, Golem, Winnie the Pooh and He-Man.

How do you lose to a fictional party?

38 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:06:48am

re: #20 MandyManners

I heard this morning that Democrats want to spend, spend, spend it.

I suspect they will, on a jobs program or the like. They'll claim it's deficient neutral, since they had budgeted for the entire 351 billion, and the 200 billion is like money from heaven. It's like the wife saving me $200 on a $350 dress on sale, so she buys $200 shoes. :)

39 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:06:57am

re: #11 thedopefishlives

Here's the thing: The Tea Party movement was primarily advertised to the American people as grassroots fiscal conservatism and responsibility. A lot of Americans don't know what kind of nutjobs are really running the tea parties, even despite the coverage they've been getting. And so Americans are readily turning to a message they desperately want to hear, while being ignorant of the madness behind the method. And despite all this, I guarantee the political analysts will get this all wrong and will continue to push the nontroversies and the nutjobs, thinking that this is what Americans want to hear.

I'd like to buy into that, but the Tea Party organizers are the SoCons.

In the tea party sentiment that at first was spontaneous, the SoCons saw a threat to their iron grip on the GOP. So they metabolized it.

Have no doubt - the candidates they put up will talk fiscal conservatism but they won't understand it. A million Sarah Palins will bloom. And the first thing they will work on is the Department of Education, the FDA and Health and Human Services.

Cut Government? Why do that when it has tentacles into so many lives that can be "compassionately" channeled in the service of God?

Ask Mike Huckabee.

40 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:07:17am

re: #32 mwalke5

You seem ignorant of the facts. What tea party organization(s) do you support?

41 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:07:23am

re: #32 mwalke5

Charles, I don't think its fair to generalize the "tea party movement" as a unified movement. They are set up independently, typically by normal people, in each city where they are present. It is not some conspiratorial dark organization. It is not even an organization at all. Yes, the crazies like Glenn Beck and Palin (sorry I don't like them either) like to score popularity points by drumming up support for the tea partiers, but they are NOT the ones who organize the vast majority of the tea party rallies.

Generalizations are always dangerous.

There are many links at LGF that disprove your statements. The majority of the organizers of tea parties are extremists of one flavor or another. You don't want to acknowledge it, and that's not surprising -- it happens every time this fact is pointed out.

42 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:08:07am

re: #37 Cineaste

In other news, the Republican party also loses to Rumplestiltskin, Golem, Winnie the Pooh and He-Man.

How do you lose to a fictional party?

I think that is it, the poll reflects people's desire for candidates that don't exist.

43 Cineaste  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:08:11am

re: #30 Charles

And by the way, that's not only insulting, it's a complete straw man. Being opposed to the Ron Paulians, racists, and far right extremists who run the tea parties says absolutely nothing about my views on fiscal conservatism.

I agree 1000%. I think a party of strong fiscal conservatism combined with a more liberal social policy and science-first intellectualism would do extremely well. National leaders like Bloomberg could do very well under that banner.

I also nominate Richard Armitage as Secretary of State. That is a man that gets things done.

44 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:08:23am

re: #32 mwalke5

Charles, I don't think its fair to generalize the "tea party movement" as a unified movement. They are set up independently, typically by normal people, in each city where they are present. It is not some conspiratorial dark organization. It is not even an organization at all. Yes, the crazies like Glenn Beck and Palin (sorry I don't like them either) like to score popularity points by drumming up support for the tea partiers, but they are NOT the ones who organize the vast majority of the tea party rallies.

Generalizations are always dangerous.


Except in this case the "Tea Party" meme is a readily identifiable movement with a national image. Any local event is going to get lumped into that identity (right or wrong) no matter how kooky or reasonable they are.

45 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:08:52am

re: #28 thedopefishlives

I would be happy if people would start reading The Conscience of a Conservative or start applying intellectual honesty to the position of limited government.

46 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:10:24am

re: #37 Cineaste

In other news, the Republican party also loses to Rumplestiltskin, Golem, Winnie the Pooh and He-Man.

How do you lose to a fictional party?

Not sure was a strong third place finisher within the statistical margin of error vs. Tea Party. The Cheshire cat is grinning.

47 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:10:29am

re: #32 mwalke5

Charles, I don't think its fair to generalize the "tea party movement" as a unified movement. They are set up independently, typically by normal people, in each city where they are present. It is not some conspiratorial dark organization. It is not even an organization at all. Yes, the crazies like Glenn Beck and Palin (sorry I don't like them either) like to score popularity points by drumming up support for the tea partiers, but they are NOT the ones who organize the vast majority of the tea party rallies.

Generalizations are always dangerous.

And so are unorganized political frenzies that want control of the government.

48 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:10:39am

re: #43 Cineaste

I think a party of strong fiscal conservatism combined with a more liberal social policy and science-first intellectualism would do extremely well.

You sound like a Goldwater republican.

49 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:10:47am

re: #45 Sharmuta

I would be happy if people would start reading The Conscience of a Conservative or start applying intellectual honesty to the position of limited government.

I have long been an advocate of the educated electorate - the idea of people voting with no actual knowledge of what they're voting for is preposterous on its face. How to enforce such a thing is way beyond me, though. (Landholders? The Fish would not be a voter!)

50 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:10:51am

re: #30 Charles

And by the way, that's not only insulting, it's a complete straw man. Being opposed to the Ron Paulians, racists, and far right extremists who run the tea parties says absolutely nothing about my views on fiscal conservatism.

But Ron Paul and his rEVOLution are the only things that can save America. So you must hate America too!

/

51 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:11:15am

re: #41 Charles

I am an avid and regular reader and yes, you have done a great job at pointing out how some of the ron paulian crazies have infiltrated some of the tea parties. That being said, you lack any empirical evidence to state that the "majority" of the tea party movements have been organized by the far-right loonies. Certainly some have, I am not disputing that. The origin of the tea party movement was simply the idea of fiscal conservatism and the desire to hold public officials accountable for racking up the worst debt our country has known outside of World War II. If there was a way to screen the paulians out of the movement, I would be all for it. But there's not. The only thing we can do is publicly denounce them, which is what I love about your work. Just don't lump all the normal fiscons into that camp, it is disingenuous.

52 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:11:51am

In fairness to those that know I post polling a lot, a new Gallup shows Obama at a one day low of 47% today.

Gallup.

53 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:12:05am

re: #29 DaddyG

Dear Lizards- I just want to minimize government interference and budgets without legalizing pot. Is there a party for me?

Errr no pot? There's no chance you can live with the liberal wing of any party. You'd have to be a sellout from the start. There's no hope for you I'm afraid.
/

54 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:12:10am

re: #35 Gus 802

Looks like TARP revisionism has taken hold. A lot of people seem to forget its origins.

I think you might be a little guilty of that revisionism. People were upset with TARP from the beginning, didn't matter what party implemented it first. Nobody liked it when the president had an (R) after his name and no one likes it now that the current president belongs to a different party. This electoral revolt is about spending, not party.

55 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:12:34am

I expect that what would happen is that the teabaggers that get elected will just be tax cutters. Nevermind that there's no such thing as a tax cut when you run a deficit.

56 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:12:48am

re: #43 Cineaste

Was there a missing sarc quote there? Bloomberg is a nanny stater of the first order, and his first inclination is to tax; not spending reductions. NYC taxes have gone up under Bloomberg as city spending continues rising.

Armitage is amoral and was behind the Plame name leak, but never took responsibility for his actions. I have a very low regard for him.

57 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:12:50am

re: #49 thedopefishlives

I have long been an advocate of the educated electorate - the idea of people voting with no actual knowledge of what they're voting for is preposterous on its face. How to enforce such a thing is way beyond me, though. (Landholders? The Fish would not be a voter!)

You have to take the good with the bad, at this point, but I do favor strengthening our civics education so that Americans are better educated as to why it's important they stay informed about their own government.

58 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:13:17am

re: #51 mwalke5

Just don't lump all the normal fiscons into that camp, it is disingenuous.

What if they lump themselves in there?

59 sffilk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:13:40am

Charles, a serious question for you. I ask only for edification, not a flame war:

Since it seems that the Republican Party is doing all it can to destroy itself, what do you consider yourself?

60 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:14:18am

re: #49 thedopefishlives

I have long been an advocate of the educated electorate - the idea of people voting with no actual knowledge of what they're voting for is preposterous on its face. How to enforce such a thing is way beyond me, though. (Landholders? The Fish would not be a voter!)


You cannot put that kind of limit on voters without it having a serious racial or socio-economic impact. Imagine all of the anglo-saxon hotel heiresses that would be frozen out of the electoral process. /

61 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:15:01am

re: #57 Sharmuta

You have to take the good with the bad, at this point, but I do favor strengthening our civics education so that Americans are better educated as to why it's important they stay informed about their own government.

That's primarily what I've been focusing on. Improvements to general American education would do much to improve the quality of the electorate. Education is the root from which many of our modern-day issues grow.

62 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:15:43am

Besides defending the right for insurance companies to screw their clients and investigating whether Obama came out of his mother's womb, what other platforms does the Tea Party support? I'm under the impression that they're whack-job libertarians.

63 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:15:55am

I'm still a Republican, but there are no Republicans in my area worth voting for. No way in hell I'm voting for Pat Toomey.

64 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:16:35am

re: #52 avanti

In fairness to those that know I post polling a lot, a new Gallup shows Obama at a one day low of 47% today.

Gallup.

A lot of poultry haters out there thought he went soft by pardoning the Turkey.

65 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:16:43am

re: #51 mwalke5

The origin of the tea party movement was simply the idea of fiscal conservatism and the desire to hold public officials accountable for racking up the worst debt our country has known outside of World War II.

And your empirical evidence for this is..?

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:16:51am

Ron Paul!

67 jordash1212  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:17:00am

That's just terrifying.

68 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:17:09am

re: #49 thedopefishlives

I have long been an advocate of the educated electorate - the idea of people voting with no actual knowledge of what they're voting for is preposterous on its face. How to enforce such a thing is way beyond me, though. (Landholders? The Fish would not be a voter!)

Where were you when that idiot in the climate thread said she knew nothing about climate science yet wanted to be involved in the discussions on solutions?

69 bunnymud  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:17:10am

"In the national telephone poll of 1,000 likely voters ..."


A percentage of 1000 likely voters swayed you?

70 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:17:15am

re: #38 avanti

I suspect they will, on a jobs program or the like. They'll claim it's deficient neutral, since they had budgeted for the entire 351 billion, and the 200 billion is like money from heaven. It's like the wife saving me $200 on a $350 dress on sale, so she buys $200 shoes. :)

Minor point: It's her money, too.

That said, we're not married to Congress. THAT'S OUR MONEY.

71 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:18:42am

re: #43 Cineaste

I agree 1000%. I think a party of strong fiscal conservatism combined with a more liberal social policy and science-first intellectualism would do extremely well. National leaders like Bloomberg could do very well under that banner.

I also nominate Richard Armitage as Secretary of State. That is a man that gets things done.

Bloomberg's a fiscon?

72 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:18:46am

re: #61 thedopefishlives

That's primarily what I've been focusing on. Improvements to general American education would do much to improve the quality of the electorate. Education is the root from which many of our modern-day issues grow.

I would argue that overall, Americans are more educated now than they were, say, 30-40 years ago. If you don't like the direction of things, I don't know that more education (whatever that constitutes) is going to yield an "improved" electorate.

73 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:18:54am

re: #41 Charles

There are many links at LGF that disprove your statements. The majority of the organizers of tea parties are extremists of one flavor or another. You don't want to acknowledge it, and that's not surprising -- it happens every time this fact is pointed out.

I went to a tea party demonstration and enjoyed the patriotic flourishes from the flags to the local high school band. The first speaker was an ordinary person whose message you could appreciate. The second speaker was a young man who got the crowd fired up but I had an uncomfortable feeling about him ...whiffs of Ron Paul...
No more tea parties for me.

74 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:19:00am

Expressed another way -

YouTube used to have spontaneous content that was heavily trafficked. When it became popular more and more content came on from professional sources which now dominate the content.

The SoCons built and maintained the whole "grass roots" of the GOP for the last 20 years. For instance, when the GOTV (get out the vote) call centers were organized and thrown into high gear in the 90s, it was done by and staffed by volunteers from the SoCon side - churches and anti-abortion groups.

So when a spontaneous mechanism erupts for conservative political expression, coopting it and sustaining it was a no-brainer. And just to feed the newly fervent they start publishing litmus tests.

In other words, Tea Parties are about as spontaneous and original now as is the popular content on YouTube.

75 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:19:08am

re: #70 MandyManners

Minor point: It's her money, too.

That said, we're not married to Congress. THAT'S OUR MONEY.

Mandy, we agree, it was just a analogy.

76 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:19:09am

re: #65 Obdicut

And your empirical evidence for this is..?


The emperical evidence shows that the anecdotes are running 5 to 4 in favor of my cause. /

77 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:19:51am

re: #51 mwalke5

re: #41 Charles

I am an avid and regular reader

...with 10 comments in two years, three of them on this thread. Socks seem to ripen in about two years.

78 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:19:58am

re: #45 Sharmuta

I would be happy if people would start reading The Conscience of a Conservative or start applying intellectual honesty to the position of limited government.

Can we turn it into a video game or put it on PS3? Turn it into a Movie of the Week? A reality show?

79 jayzee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:11am

My concern is that we are becoming so polarized in this country that the insane fringe is taking over. We are addicted to hyperbole and anger and conspiracy. Politics is merely entertainment. The RNC made a BIG mistake giving these guys any credibility. They need to now take back the (positive) parts of the message the Tea Parties have usurped. My belief is that many that support the tea parties do so because there is no other conservative focus to direct their attention to. Like I said before, the RNC should have nipped this in the bud with Paul like they did with Duke.

80 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:24am

re: #76 DaddyG

The emperical evidence shows that the anecdotes are running 5 to 4 in favor of my cause. /

30 Helens agree.

81 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:29am

re: #64 DaddyG

A lot of poultry haters out there thought he went soft by pardoning the Turkey.

I see nothing that caused the 2 point drop, probably be back up in a day or two, but is a record low.

82 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #65 Obdicut

And your empirical evidence for this is..?

This:
[Link: www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov...]
and this?
[Link: www.nj.com...]

unless you're one of those that think this 20pt swing in one years time is the fault of the Paulites.

83 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #72 ignoranceisfatal

I would argue that overall, Americans are more educated now than they were, say, 30-40 years ago. If you don't like the direction of things, I don't know that more education (whatever that constitutes) is going to yield an "improved" electorate.

More educated how? Ordinary, everyday Americans have an abysmal understanding of basic government operational principles, very little grasp of important historical context, and an ever-increasing lack of fundamental math, science, and grammar instruction.

84 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:20:49am

re: #77 wrenchwench

Socks seem to ripen in about two years.

So you live with teenage boys too? /

85 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:06am

re: #80 Obdicut

30 Helens agree.

What's a "Helen?"

86 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:14am

Now we've got someone making more false claims about Elizabeth May -- easily disproved again -- in the Spencer thread.

87 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:15am

re: #61 thedopefishlives

That's primarily what I've been focusing on. Improvements to general American education would do much to improve the quality of the electorate. Education is the root from which many of our modern-day issues grow.

While I am predominately of the constrained vision, it is in education where I start leaning the other way. In America, education is the great equalizer. Anyone with a brain and the ability to work hard can achieve success most of the time. It is in the areas where we are failing to provide this opportunity to the best of our ability to all of America's children that I think the damage is the worst. We can discuss many aspects of education in this, but on topic I mean in the sense of civics. When the People are so apathetic that half usually don't bother to vote at all, something is very wrong.

88 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:17am

re: #29 DaddyG

Party's at my house. Starts at 4:20.

89 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:21am

re: #80 Obdicut

30 Helens agree.

Kids in the Hall, classic.

90 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:22am

re: #75 avanti

Mandy, we agree, it was just a analogy.

THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT!

91 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:29am

re: #82 RogueOne

This:
[Link: www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov...]
and this?
[Link: www.nj.com...]

unless you're one of those that think this 20pt swing in one years time is the fault of the Paulites.

I'm sorry, how is that supposed to prove anything about the Tea Party people?

92 gtluke  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:21:57am

Charles, I've read most of your posts for the last couple years and this is probably the first one that has pulled a comment from me.
I participate in the Morristown NJ TEA parties, they are run by normal people seeking fiscal responsibility. It also pulls out the historical government types because the protest takes place in George Washington's "Home" for many years.
There are many of us in the country that are seeking a government that does not treat us like children, making decisions for us and spending our money for us. I don't think I'm a wacko at all, and I have a pretty strong disliking for the Republican party because of their religious backing, their politicizing and non belief in evolution, and their recent failures to be responsible at all.
At our last rally on election day in November, nobody mentioned Palin, or Glen Beck. It was a series of talks by wells spoken immigrants to this country about why they made the difficult choice to leave their country and move here, and how now "here" is becoming more and more like where they moved from many years ago.
Please consider spectating a grassroots TEA party before bashing the entire movement.

93 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:22:10am

re: #51 mwalke5

The origin of the tea party movement was simply the idea of fiscal conservatism and the desire to hold public officials accountable for racking up the worst debt our country has known outside of World War II.

So they were formed during the Bush presidency?

94 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:22:22am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

What's a "Helen?"

It's from Kids In The Hall.

30 Helens

95 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:22:35am

re: #77 wrenchwench

Exactly. I never really have the desire to comment except in situations where I think Charles really left his thinking cap at home and jumps to incorrect conclusions (i.e. that since people polled in favor of the Tea Party, the right is full of wackos).

96 exelwood  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:22:46am

We have completely lost control of the government. We would be better off with 532 people drawn at random from the phone book, there would be a much better likelihood of getting some actual Americans.

Liberal, Conservative, Libertarian, Tea Partier I don't care what, we need a new congress, vote them all out, all of them, start over.

97 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:23:10am

re: #81 avanti

I see nothing that caused the 2 point drop, probably be back up in a day or two, but is a record low.


Perhaps a bit of dissent with the climate conference or unhappy "no more sodliers for Afganistan" people? 2 points is not a real significant jump.

The overall trend says the honeymoon is over- but it is not out of line with most modern presidents at this point in their administration. History tells me that we'll have a swing back to the (R) side in the mid-terms and then the economy will dictate what happens in 2012.

98 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:23:28am

re: #93 Basho

I was against TARP during the Bush administration as well. Regardless of your party, you must be fiscally responsible or held accountable.

99 badger1970  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:23:35am

re: #96 exelwood

Wrong. Power corrupts.

100 Euler  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:24:07am

A horse thief who doesn't mount the fastest horse and hoof it hard is just not being a good horse thief. And blaming the horse won't bring the horse back.

101 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:24:20am

re: #91 Obdicut

I'm sorry, how is that supposed to prove anything about the Tea Party people?

the idea of fiscal conservatism and the desire to hold public officials accountable for racking up the worst debt our country has known outside of World War II.

My point is if people keep their head in the sand re: the nations mood over spending then the total "throw the bums out" landslide that's coming next year is going to come as a total surprise.

102 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:24:39am

re: #83 thedopefishlives

More educated how? Ordinary, everyday Americans have an abysmal understanding of basic government operational principles, very little grasp of important historical context, and an ever-increasing lack of fundamental math, science, and grammar instruction.

Ah, but how do you define an "ordinary, everyday American"? Three or four decades ago, this might not have included a lot of people (rural farm families, recent immigrants, African Americans) who now have greatly improved access to education.

103 exelwood  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:24:50am

re: #99 badger1970

Wrong. Power corrupts.


I had to smile. :)

104 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:25:02am

re: #99 badger1970

Wrong. Power corrupts.

Absolute power is even more fun.

105 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #101 RogueOne

PIMF (learned something new over the last month) I should have formatted that better.

106 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:25:46am

re: #69 bunnymud

A poll of 1,000 likely voters gives you a confidence within +/- 3% or so. That's not bad to get a general sentiment. I don't have access to the crosstabs on the full poll, but the actual release of the poll is here.

The standard Generic Congressional Ballot shows Republicans holding a modest lead over Democrats. It appears that the policies of the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress are currently enough to unite both those who prefer Republicans and those who prefer the Tea Party route.

Data from the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll shows that just 55% of conservatives nationwide consider themselves Republicans. Recent polling shows that 73% of Republican voters believe their leaders in Washington are out of touch with the party base.

Republican voters are paying a lot more attention to the Tea Party movement than anyone else. Forty-three percent (43%) of GOP voters are following news about the movement Very Closely. Another 30% are following it Somewhat Closely. Just 12% of Democrats are following stories about the Tea Party movement Very Closely.

Seventy percent (70%) of Republican voters have a favorable opinion of the Tea Party movement while only seven percent (7%) offer an unfavorable view. Interestingly, 49% of Democrats have no opinion one way or the other.

The Tea Parties are where opposition to the Administration has accumulated, so it shouldn't be a surprise that GOPers are following the Tea Party stories more than Democrats.

107 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:25:46am

re: #72 ignoranceisfatal

I would argue that overall, Americans are more educated now than they were, say, 30-40 years ago. If you don't like the direction of things, I don't know that more education (whatever that constitutes) is going to yield an "improved" electorate.

Check out this thread from yesterday.

It doesn't compare such knowledge as we had back then but, I dare say that back then our schools actually taught history and civics a damn sight better than they do today.

108 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:26:06am

re: #96 exelwood

I won't argue with you there. We've got far too many Congresscritters who have decided they're there to serve themselves.

As far as the 'Tea Party Party', if they're for reducing government spending & taxes, and reducing government involvement in areas not delineated in the Constitution, I'd be more than happy to support them. Too many Republicans are acting just like Democrats with their endless spending on BS projects.

109 Teh Flowah  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:26:15am

re: #5 Walter L. Newton

But a RINO party would just be pandering to what some conservatives want. Wouldn't want any of that pandering going on.

Disingenuous at best. It's not pandering if you believe it and intend to do something about it. It's pandering when you make religious and social issues a centerpiece of your political party when:

1. You're not all that serious about them
2. You know you won't do anything about it.
3. You know that even if you did care, you wouldn't be able to pass it.

Rove and Bush weren't dumb. They knew they wouldn't be passing any gay marriage amendment. They just said a lot of empty words about a variety of social issues and scored points for it. That's pandering. Talking about fiscal responsibility and then trying to act upon it is not pandering.

110 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:26:22am

re: #96 exelwood

We have completely lost control of the government. We would be better off with 532 people drawn at random from the phone book, there would be a much better likelihood of getting some actual Americans.

Liberal, Conservative, Libertarian, Tea Partier I don't care what, we need a new congress, vote them all out, all of them, start over.

I wholeheartedly disagree. We have the power to elect, therefore we have not lost control of the government. Once we no longer have that ability to elect, then we have lost control.

111 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:26:45am

re: #95 mwalke5

You know what really helps make your point in a discussion. Insult the blog host. Yup that's a winner every time... /

112 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:07am

re: #102 ignoranceisfatal

Ah, but how do you define an "ordinary, everyday American"? Three or four decades ago, this might not have included a lot of people (rural farm families, recent immigrants, African Americans) who now have greatly improved access to education.

Greatly improved access to education, sure. But what exactly are we teaching them? Given the state of current civics education in this country, I would argue that their greatly improved access isn't helping matters much, if at all. Sharmuta's right - if half of all voters stay home on election day out of apathy, there's something seriously wrong somewhere. People need to CARE about what their government does. I got lucky and had a good government teacher that encouraged us to get involved.

113 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:07am

It's kind of amazing that some people seem to think I just wrote this off the top of my head, with no evidence at all that extremists are in charge of the national tea party movement, just because I hate fiscal conservatism.

Have you folks been reading anything I've posted about these demonstrations?

114 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:25am

I'm guessing these Tea Party poll numbers will decrease as the GOP numbers increase closer to an election.

115 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:34am

re: #92 gtluke

Charles, I've read most of your posts for the last couple years and this is probably the first one that has pulled a comment from me.
I participate in the Morristown NJ TEA parties, they are run by normal people seeking fiscal responsibility. It also pulls out the historical government types because the protest takes place in George Washington's "Home" for many years.
There are many of us in the country that are seeking a government that does not treat us like children, making decisions for us and spending our money for us. I don't think I'm a wacko at all, and I have a pretty strong disliking for the Republican party because of their religious backing, their politicizing and non belief in evolution, and their recent failures to be responsible at all.
At our last rally on election day in November, nobody mentioned Palin, or Glen Beck. It was a series of talks by wells spoken immigrants to this country about why they made the difficult choice to leave their country and move here, and how now "here" is becoming more and more like where they moved from many years ago.
Please consider spectating a grassroots TEA party before bashing the entire movement.

Does your group advocate auditing the Fed?

116 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:45am

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Ron Paul!

Abolish teh Fed! /

117 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:51am

Who is going to fill the vacuum?

Either Obama will stop the astronomic spending and spiraling debt, or he will not only destroy his presidency, but take his party—and many of us— down with him. He apparently did not understand that the fury against Bush was not just due to Iraq, but the unprecedented $300-400 billion annual deficits. But rather than address that, Obama has scheduled a number of trillion-dollar-plus annual deficits for the rest of his term.

Obama’s legacy is to reduce the word “trillion”—which used to be a mind-boggling concept—to the equivalent of “billion”, as in a “trillion here, a trillion there.”

There are solutions, of course. Don’t laugh: the ridiculous can become the real when the money runs out. We can furlough federal employees 1 -5 days a month. We can inflate our way out by expanding the money supply. ...[] [There is really no "they" who will step in and save us.])

E.g., we can default on Social Security and Medicare—as in saying “those who make over $150,000 will not be eligible for Medicare” or have 50% of their Social Security withheld as tax. Don’t laugh, worse may be in store.

Most civilizations whose assemblies vote themselves entitlements they cannot pay for ultimately slash defense—cf. the British in the 1940s, the French in the 1930s, or the Byzantines in the 13th-15th centuries. We may too. Perhaps mothballing 2-3 carriers, or selling off our stealth fighters to India, or dissolving 4-5 divisions? Perhaps Obama will institute a federal sales tax, as in 10% or so on top of 6-10% sales taxes in many states. He may add a dollar on top of state gas taxes, making about $1.50 here in California. The above absurdities will not be in a few years at the present rate. Again, anything is possible.

-Victor Hanson

118 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:27:57am

re: #92 gtluke

One thing you're missing is that people pine for a "lost" America that didn't actually exist. I appreciate that people romanticize their memories, but the biggest problem with the teabaggers is that there is nothing more concrete than their premise. Sure, we have to cut the deficit. How? What do you cut and also, you will inevitably have to raise taxes. Keep in mind that the cuts you make at the federal level often have to be made up at the state or local level. So don't expect everybody to take your sound bytes seriously.

119 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:28:03am

re: #92 gtluke

Do you also have Fox News commentators speaking at your events?

120 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:28:08am

re: #98 mwalke5

I was against TARP during the Bush administration as well. Regardless of your party, you must be fiscally responsible or held accountable.

Did the tea party march against Bush's prescription drug policy? The Iraq war? The tea party is nothing but hypocritical, closeted racist, wingnuts.

121 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:28:28am

A good chunk of the conservative base, from whose ranks the GOP has always drawn voters, appears to have become susceptible to radicalizing elements and suggestions over the past year or so.

It's pointless to claim that the GOP is in the iron grip of theo-cons or socons at the national level, as McCain was about as moderate a candidate as the GOP has fielded in recent memory, and Palin was simply window-dressing. A party dominated by these elements would have run very different candidates at the national level, or would have reversed the ticket's order.

That said, the question is now whether the GOP should attempt to tamp down this sort of thing, and thereby win the approval of, among others, the American Left, currently riding high on its recent victories, whether instead the party should go along with this squabbling rabble, or whether instead it should attempt to co-opt the following and discard the leadership. The last option seems the most desirable to me, and seems like the one with the greatest pedigree behind it - there is precedent for a major American political party's having confronted and absorbed its fringe elements, scooping up the followers and chucking their "leaders" out on their ears.

It can be done, it has been done, and it seems like the best available option at the moment.

122 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:28:55am

re: #118 SteveMcG

Maybe you could cut the deficit by not spending trillions more on "health reform"?

123 ghazidor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:29:25am

This is really going to encourage them to play spoiler and run their own candidates against the party Republicans. I am afraid that we have just lost any chance of winning the House back in 2010. We never did have a chance of taking back the Senate, but we still can at least take away the Democrats super majority, if the Tea Partiers don't manage to screw that up too.

124 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:29:28am

re: #112 thedopefishlives

Greatly improved access to education, sure. But what exactly are we teaching them? Given the state of current civics education in this country, I would argue that their greatly improved access isn't helping matters much, if at all. Sharmuta's right - if half of all voters stay home on election day out of apathy, there's something seriously wrong somewhere. People need to CARE about what their government does. I got lucky and had a good government teacher that encouraged us to get involved.

Let's accept that kids need more time for civics education. What gets cut from the curriculum to make room for it?

125 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:29:42am

I know it'll never happen, and politically it probably never COULD happen, but I'd love to see about 20% of the federal budget eliminated. Between waste, fraud and un-Constitutional spending brought about by both parties, that'd get us much closer to what the framers intended.

126 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:29:50am

re: #124 ignoranceisfatal

Let's accept that kids need more time for civics education. What gets cut from the curriculum to make room for it?

How about stupid shit like Dress Like A Muslim Day?

127 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:30:03am

re: #121 Guanxi88

It's pointless to claim that the GOP is in the iron grip of theo-cons or socons at the national level, as McCain was about as moderate a candidate as the GOP has fielded in recent memory, and Palin was simply window-dressing. A party dominated by these elements would have run very different candidates at the national level, or would have reversed the ticket's order.

But McCain, during the campaign, ran away from moderate positions, and Palin was not simply window dressing, she was the vice presidential candidate, meaning she could have become president. That's not window dressing.

128 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:30:27am

re: #90 MandyManners

THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT!

There's my gal. :)

129 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:30:51am

re: #126 thedopefishlives

How about stupid shit like Dress Like A Muslim Day?


It's only fair. Dress like a prostetot day happens 364 days out of the year. /

130 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:30:57am

re: #127 Obdicut

But McCain, during the campaign, ran away from moderate positions, and Palin was not simply window dressing, she was the vice presidential candidate, meaning she could have become president. That's not window dressing.

Bullshit. She was a bone thrown to the SoCons. McCain is NOT a SoCon.

131 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #95 mwalke5

Exactly. I never really have the desire to comment except in situations where I think Charles really left his thinking cap at home and jumps to incorrect conclusions (i.e. that since people polled in favor of the Tea Party, the right is full of wackos).


A look at your old posts disproves that.

GAZE

132 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:14am

re: #124 ignoranceisfatal

Let's accept that kids need more time for civics education. What gets cut from the curriculum to make room for it?

They seem to have had time for it 50-60 years ago, lets look at some of the assorted crap we've added in since then and work from there.

133 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:26am

re: #120 Basho

No they did not. But then again, they also were not in existence until after Tarp II. Your point?

134 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:44am

re: #127 Obdicut

But McCain, during the campaign, ran away from moderate positions, and Palin was not simply window dressing, she was the vice presidential candidate, meaning she could have become president. That's not window dressing.


Now Biden! That is some real window dressing. /

135 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:47am

re: #120 Basho

Did the tea party march against Bush's prescription drug policy? The Iraq war? The tea party is nothing but hypocritical, closeted racist, wingnuts.

The prescription drug policy met with a lot of resistance. Maybe you should note what happened to the (R) party elections. I also don't remember seeing any Tea Partiers advocating pulling out of Iraq/Afghanistan.

136 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:49am

By the way, my dream for fiscal conservatism:

Every bill passed has to clearly state what the objectives of the bill are, set out measurements for success, and have a yearly review of whether the bill is actually effective in doing what its goals are.

137 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:31:55am

re: #112 thedopefishlives

People need to CARE about what their government does. I got lucky and had a good government teacher that encouraged us to get involved.

Exactly! Most people don't realize just how much government decisions can and do affect how our lives, and just how important it is for them to stay aware of what their representatives are doing, and contact them when needed, and VOTE! Many people think it doesn't matter, or that one person's voice can't make a difference, so they fail to be involved in any way.

138 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:32:17am

re: #131 wrenchwench

Creepy.

139 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:32:26am

re: #116 Gus 802

Abolish teh Fed! /

The core principles of the Tea Parties are libertarian nonsense like abolish the Fed. I was reading up on the Fed conspiracies this weekend and the are antisemitic to their core (Jewish bankers running the world, etc). The stuff about not rescuing our financial infrastructure, no TARP, No bailouts, no stimulus, would be economic and national suicide. Sadly this has infected the GOP under the guise of "economic responsibility." It's really dangerous and toxic stuff.

140 baier  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:32:50am

re: #136 Obdicut

By the way, my dream for fiscal conservatism:

Every bill passed has to clearly state what the objectives of the bill are, set out measurements for success, and have a yearly review of whether the bill is actually effective in doing what its goals are.

Who is going to review it? More government?

141 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:33:03am
142 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:33:05am

re: #136 Obdicut

And the precise Constitutional authority for said bill is stated.

143 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:33:28am

re: #130 MandyManners

Bullshit. She was a bone thrown to the SoCons. McCain is NOT a SoCon.

Okay. So she was a bone-- she was still the vice presidential candidate. That was real. She could have been sitting in office as the Vice President, ready to take over as the President.

Call her window dressing, a bone, a sop, a bribe-- she was still the vice presidential candidate.

144 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:33:50am

re: #140 baier

Who is going to review it? More government?

Maybe actually requiring our elected representatives to read these bills could help...just a thought.

145 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:07am

re: #136 Obdicut

By the way, my dream for fiscal conservatism:

Every bill passed has to clearly state what the objectives of the bill are, set out measurements for success, and have a yearly review of whether the bill is actually effective in doing what its goals are.

Mine would be a restructuring of the collection and spending mechanisms, so that agencies were not forced to spend every dime of their budget (as one example); and instead of auditing the People, the IRS would audit Congress.

146 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:07am

Lordy folks get with the program!

Democrats are tax and spend liberals who want to give up our sovereignty.

Republicans are angry white racist men who want to legislate the Bible.

Isn't it clear yet?

//

147 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:16am

re: #125 right_wing2

I know it'll never happen, and politically it probably never COULD happen, but I'd love to see about 20% of the federal budget eliminated. Between waste, fraud and un-Constitutional spending brought about by both parties, that'd get us much closer to what the framers intended.

Start naming some stuff.

148 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:27am

re: #137 Sharmuta

Many people think it doesn't matter, or that one person's voice can't make a difference, so they fail to be involved in any way.

I have this exact same argument all the time, and I finally came up with a decent analogy that worked. Here at work, we get paid Christmas bonuses based on whether or not the company met certain financial goals for the year. Employees always complain that their individual job performance doesn't have any direct link to them earning their bonus. I made the argument, you doing your job may or may not result in earning the bonus; you NOT doing your job will almost certainly result in failure. Same thing with participating in government. Failure to do so will almost certainly result in a negative result. What harm is it really going to do you to go out and vote?

149 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:46am

re: #133 mwalke5

No they did not. But then again, they also were not in existence until after Tarp II. Your point?

They don't care about fiscal conservatism. They're a bunch of whackjobs

150 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:50am
151 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:51am

re: #141 Mr Chompers

Drop and run troll. GAZE

152 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:34:55am

OT sorta: Isn't there something wrong with the system when you have to roll Robert Byrd, (a former KKK Klansman) at age 91, out onto the senate floor for a vote. The man has been in the Senate since January 3, 1959. Wrong wrong wrong.

153 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:35:01am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

The core principles of the Tea Parties are libertarian nonsense like abolish the Fed. I was reading up on the Fed conspiracies this weekend and the are antisemitic to their core (Jewish bankers running the world, etc). The stuff about not rescuing our financial infrastructure, no TARP, No bailouts, no stimulus, would be economic and national suicide. Sadly this has infected the GOP under the guise of "economic responsibility." It's really dangerous and toxic stuff.

It would be interesting to see the poll numbers on how many of these Tea Party people are relying on Medicare and/or other government entitlement programs.

154 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:35:11am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

The stuff about not rescuing our financial infrastructure, no TARP, No bailouts, no stimulus, would be economic and national suicide.

Hyperbole much? Can you show me the evidence, any evidence, that these plans have done anything for the economy other than put us in so much debt we'll never get out?

155 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:35:31am

re: #149 Basho

They don't care about fiscal conservatism. They're a bunch of whackjobs

Exactly the type of sweeping generalization I mentioned earlier.

156 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:36:06am

re: #140 baier

Who is going to review it? More government?

I'd prefer a third-party non-profit, actually, set up by the government but then independent of it.

It's obviously an idea with a lot of nuance to it, but I think the largest problem we have, legislatively, is that there's a lack of accountability for what happens after bills are passed. Only the ones with the most obvious effects ever really get revisited, and meanwhile there are bills funding programs that don't work and have never worked, clicking along spending money that could be used to solve actual problems.

re: #142 right_wing2

And the precise Constitutional authority for said bill is stated.

Interesting thought. In a weird way, it empowers the Supreme Court even more.

157 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:36:10am

re: #141 Mr Chompers

You logged out really quickly after posting that. Whose sock are you?

Luap Nor really brings them out. Tea parties=Luap Nor.

158 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:36:25am

And the GOP's response? They say this proves the teapartiers aren't extremists! HotAir luuurves this:

GOP Aide: Poll Showing Tea Partiers Top GOP Proves It’s “Not Fringe”

Asked for the GOP leadership’s view of the poll, a senior GOP leadership aide emails an interesting, and somewhat similar, interpretation: It proves that Democrats are wrong about the Tea Partiers being extremists. From that aide:

This proves one of the major points that Democrats have tried hard to deny: the Tea Party movement is not some fringe group of ultra-conservatives, it is most popular among independents, many of whom believed President Obama’s campaign promises about doing things differently in Washington, and feel burned by the fact that he has governed in a relentlessly partisan fashion.

The thing is, of course, that the Tea Partiers’ success is exposing how deep the divide is within the GOP. Indeed, the poll finds that among Republican voters, the GOPer only holds a slim advantage over the Tea Party candidate, 39%-33%!

That prompted conservative blogger Ed Morrissey to remark that the national GOP’s best hope is to embrace the Tea Partiers agenda, or else.

“If not, expect another cycle of loss and frustration,” Morrissey wrote, referring to 2010.

It’s interesting that in the face of Tea Party Rising, the GOP leadership’s best interpretation of this poll may be to simply acknowledge the success of the Tea Party movement.

God help us all.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:36:47am

re: #10 Diamond Bullet

At least one Democrat already lost to someone from the so-called "Tax Revolt" Party:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I have to admit that political debates that turn on who physically throws the most tea into the harbor would be pretty entertaining.

What was the ecological outcome of the Boston Tea Party anyway? Were all the fish really wired?

160 baier  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:36:50am

re: #144 mwalke5

Maybe actually requiring our elected representatives to read these bills could help...just a thought.

I'm 100% OK with staffers reviewing documents for elected officials...I have been know to lean on attorneys myself to advise me in complicated matters. Having not read the small print does not change my judgment.

161 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:37:11am

re: #122 mwalke5
We are already spending trillions on health status quo. That's my point. Just because you say you don't want the fed spending the money, we are spending it anyway. The medical industry is not a growth industry. Healthcare is important, but it doesn't make the rest of the country wealthy. We aren't taking resources and adding value to them. At best you can say we are spending a fortune on maintenance and repair of our labor supply. Whether the govt. does it or whether we pay for it in insurance premiums, the amount of our economy devoted to healthcare is disproportionate.

162 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:37:15am

re: #153 Gus 802

It would be interesting to see the poll numbers on how many of these Tea Party people are relying on Medicare and/or other government entitlement programs.

Its hard to get people out to protest in the middle of the day when they are gainfully employed.

163 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:37:50am

re: #158 iceweasel

And the GOP's response? They say this proves the teapartiers aren't extremists! HotAir luuurves this:

GOP Aide: Poll Showing Tea Partiers Top GOP Proves It’s “Not Fringe”

God help us all.

And they may be right. Couldn't hurt the left.

164 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:37:52am

re: #158 iceweasel

And the GOP's response? They say this proves the teapartiers aren't extremists! HotAir luuurves this:

GOP Aide: Poll Showing Tea Partiers Top GOP Proves It’s “Not Fringe”


God help us all.

Because throwing in with mob has always brought about the best results in the long run.

///

165 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:37:58am

re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They seem to have had time for it 50-60 years ago, lets look at some of the assorted crap we've added in since then and work from there.

Not to be nasty, but it's easy to make glib statements like this. A lot has changed in fifty years, and various things have been added to the curriculum to reflect that. I doubt, for instance, that 1950s schools dedicated anytime to computing classes. Nor that they offered Chinese or other non-traditional languages.

I'm just making the point that if you're going to say civics should take priority, you have to be willing to make serious concessions to give it a bigger place in the curriculum.

166 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:15am

re: #155 mwalke5

Exactly the type of sweeping generalization I mentioned earlier.

A factual sweeping generalization.

167 Cineaste  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:16am

re: #48 Sharmuta

You sound like a Goldwater republican.

"Goldwater republican"

what is this fictional creature of which you speak? I think they went extinct... maybe it was global warming that killed it?

___/

168 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:33am

re: #157 wrenchwench

You logged out really quickly after posting that. Whose sock are you?

Luap Nor really brings them out. Tea parties=Luap Nor.

It's the last time he'll do that.

169 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:38am
170 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:44am

re: #158 iceweasel

And the GOP's response? They say this proves the teapartiers aren't extremists! HotAir luuurves this:

GOP Aide: Poll Showing Tea Partiers Top GOP Proves It’s “Not Fringe”

God help us all.

I've been pointing out for the last couple of months that Obama is bleeding independents badly. They're going to go somewhere, why shouldn't the repubs make a grab for them?

171 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:38:49am

re: #158 iceweasel

Worth repeating:

That prompted conservative blogger Ed Morrissey to remark that the national GOP’s best hope is to embrace the Tea Partiers agenda, or else.

This could be rewritten as:

Hot Air endorses Tea Party movement as GOP's last hope.

172 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:39:01am

re: #154 RogueOne

Every country on the planet with a functioning government propped up its banks and financial infrastructure and passed economic stimulus measures to create jobs and inject money into their economies. If the Tea Parties were in charge we would have been the only ones to voluntarily collapse our economy. We are not immune to the reality of economics no matter what fairy tales the Paulians tell you.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:39:14am

re: #29 DaddyG

Dear Lizards- I just want to minimize government interference and budgets without legalizing pot. Is there a party for me?

If you can get minimal government interference and low budgets but they insist on legalizing pot, can we compromise?

174 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:39:34am

re: #161 SteveMcG

The medical industry is not a growth industry. Healthcare is important, but it doesn't make the rest of the country wealthy.

Healthcare = 1/3 of the economy. So yes, it does make the rest of the country wealthy.

175 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:39:49am

re: #104 thedopefishlives

Absolute power is even more fun.

I have a motivational poster for you...

[Link: www.despair.com...]

176 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #167 Cineaste

"Goldwater republican"

what is this fictional creature of which you speak? I think they went extinct... maybe it was global warming that killed it?

___/

Many of these are also known today as RINOs.

177 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:16am

Please don't quote troll comments. Use the 'Reply' button instead. If you quote a troll comment, your comment will be deleted too.

178 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:16am

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

What was the ecological outcome of the Boston Tea Party anyway? Were all the fish really wired?

They all jumped out of the water and splashed in on their backs while saying "Ahhh". (Sorry for some reason this made me think of the old Nestea Plunge commercial.)

179 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:18am

I know some on the right have compared the Chosen One and Mrs Chosen to monkeys or wookies. Not a nice comparison. I'd rather have a monkey or a wookie in office or the White House than this fool and his nasty, hateful, angry other half.

180 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:21am

re: #165 ignoranceisfatal

Not to be nasty, but it's easy to make glib statements like this. A lot has changed in fifty years, and various things have been added to the curriculum to reflect that. I doubt, for instance, that 1950s schools dedicated anytime to computing classes. Nor that they offered Chinese or other non-traditional languages.

I'm just making the point that if you're going to say civics should take priority, you have to be willing to make serious concessions to give it a bigger place in the curriculum.

Oh, for pity's sake. We don't need to teach Chinese and the like as a requirement.

181 jayzee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:40:25am

re: #158 iceweasel

And the GOP's response? They say this proves the teapartiers aren't extremists! HotAir luuurves this:

GOP Aide: Poll Showing Tea Partiers Top GOP Proves It’s “Not Fringe”

God help us all.

Nauseating. Friggin idiots. Embrace Paul and Buchanan et al or die? How about present a clear message of fiscal conservatism, smaller government (yes that includes "social conservatism" being tossed out). Then exposing the real RINOs (paleocons, Libertarians etc) for being the idiots they are?

182 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:02am

re: #127 Obdicut

But McCain, during the campaign, ran away from moderate positions, and Palin was not simply window dressing, she was the vice presidential candidate, meaning she could have become president. That's not window dressing.

Yes and no. Joe "7-11" Biden can dress a helluva window.

183 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:18am

re: #155 mwalke5

Exactly the type of sweeping generalization I mentioned earlier.

Yes, you said this:

Generalizations are always dangerous.

...which of course also applies to your generalisation about all generalisations.

It's no fun for me when people refute themselves like that. Try harder pls.

184 ghazidor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:19am

Dammit I thought I was safe to quote that one because you had already downdinged it Charles.

Sorry.

185 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:21am

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

If you can get minimal government interference and low budgets but they insist on legalizing pot, can we compromise?


If you set aside money for increased support of police forces taken out of DUI fines. :-)

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:26am

re: #64 DaddyG

A lot of poultry haters out there thought he went soft by pardoning the Turkey.

That was Barlet's concern about the whole thing. "I'm not going to get a reputation for being soft on turkeys, am I?"

187 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:33am

re: #172 Killgore Trout

Every country on the planet with a functioning government propped up its banks and financial infrastructure and passed economic stimulus measures to create jobs and inject money into their economies. If the Tea Parties were in charge we would have been the only ones to voluntarily collapse our economy. We are not immune to the reality of economics no matter what fairy tales the Paulians tell you.

(A.) None of them "propped" them up anywhere near the amount we decided on. When the Germans and the Chinese tell you that "maybe you should be a little more conservative with your spending" then probably you should put the check book down a little bit.
(B.) Those countries that didn't pour good money after bad are the ones leading the recovery, not us.

188 jayzee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #171 Gus 802

Worth repeating:

This could be rewritten as:

Hot Air endorses Tea Party movement as GOP's last hope.

Party purity Gus. Independents, we don't need no independents.

/

189 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:48am

OT: I'm running a Windows 7 test box at work with Firefox and reading LGF.
It is a very pleasant experience..

190 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:41:50am

re: #172 Killgore Trout

Every functioning government passed a stimulus to create jobs? Many created a plan to prop up the banks to keep the credit markets from collapsing in the aftermath of the real estate market collapse that collaterally took down the credit market, but even the White House admits that the stimulus didn't create jobs (especially the number of jobs needed to keep unemployment rates from climbing above their worst case scenario without any stimulus funds).

191 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #183 iceweasel

So you caught my slight attempt at humor?

"All generalizations are dangerous."

192 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:04am

re: #179 right_wing2

What prompted this?

193 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:34am

re: #179 right_wing2

Why does this seem like a double-sided, sock puppet flounce? Maybe because it is?

194 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:39am

re: #188 jayzee

Party purity Gus. Independents, we don't need no independents.

/

The purges will continue until party unity is up.

195 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:40am

What are the tea party's solutions to the national debt besides eliminating social safety nets?

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:42:41am

re: #49 thedopefishlives

I have long been an advocate of the educated electorate - the idea of people voting with no actual knowledge of what they're voting for is preposterous on its face. How to enforce such a thing is way beyond me, though. (Landholders? The Fish would not be a voter!)

Owning property doesn't indicate that you know what the hell you are voting about. It just indicates that you own property.

197 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #179 right_wing2

You aren't helping redeem the image of conservatives as civil.

198 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #171 Gus 802

Worth repeating:

This could be rewritten as:

That prompted conservative blogger Ed Morrissey to remark that the national GOP’s best hope is to embrace the Tea Partiers agenda, or else.


Hot Air endorses Tea Party movement as GOP's last hope.

Worth threepeating, as condensed.

199 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:09am

re: #182 Aceofwhat?

Yes and no. Joe "7-11" Biden can dress a helluva window.

Sure thing.


Youtube Video
200 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:46am

re: #174 mwalke5

Continue to read the post. What value are we adding? There is no resource at the base of the indusrty. It is fueled ONLY by premiums.

201 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:54am

re: #195 Basho

What are the tea party's solutions to the national debt besides eliminating social safety nets?

Where are the democrat's besides military spending?

202 funky chicken  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:43:57am

I left "the left" in the 80s for the same kind of reason. Of course then the wackaloons took over the GOP in KS (where I lived at the time). Welcome to political orphanhood.

203 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:08am

re: #161 SteveMcG

The medical industry is not a growth industry. Healthcare is important, but it doesn't make the rest of the country wealthy. We aren't taking resources and adding value to them. At best you can say we are spending a fortune on maintenance and repair of our labor supply. blockquote>

Yes and no. A decent chunk of healthcare spending is comparable to consumables spending. Whether i buy an Xbox or get my teeth whitened...comparable effect on the economy. At least, until some sap taxes me to pay for someone else's bleach job...

204 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:11am

re: #195 Basho

What are the tea party's solutions to the national debt besides eliminating social safety nets?

Not creating more "social safety nets" than we can afford for starters.

205 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:30am

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

Owning property doesn't indicate that you know what the hell you are voting about. It just indicates that you own property.


Think Paris Hilton.

206 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #171 Gus 802

Worth repeating:

This could be rewritten as:

Hot Air endorses Tea Party movement as GOP's last hope.

Absolutely. That was the most interesting part of the link for me.

207 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:44:57am

re: #198 wrenchwench

Worth threepeating, as condensed.

Much genuflecting to follow. Look for more Ron Paul posts at Hot Air.

Andy Levy to throw in his emotional support.

Andrew Breitbart has yet to return our phone calls.

Dan Riehl thinks it a gay conspiracy.

//

208 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:45:02am

re: #195 Basho

What are the tea party's solutions to the national debt besides eliminating social safety nets?

I don't think offering solutions, or even understanding the actual issues they are protesting is part of the tea party mission. Just seems like good tool to increase the ODS zerg.

209 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:45:07am

re: #179 right_wing2

There are people on the left, and people on the right, and then there are just plain jerks, like you.

210 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:45:28am

re: #208 Locker

I don't think offering solutions, or even understanding the actual issues they are protesting is part of the tea party mission. Just seems like good tool to increase the ODS zerg.

'xactly.

211 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:45:42am

re: #3 Sharmuta

Whoaah, there Sharmuta...them's fightin' words to El Rushbo...!

212 jayzee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:45:56am

re: #194 Sharmuta

The purges will continue until party unity is up.

I wish I kept the woman's name at the RNC that I spoke to when I complained about Paul during the campaign. She said he was in it because the RNC is inclusive (though she declined to answer why Duke was tossed however), nonetheless, I wonder how this RINO feels about the inclusivity of the RNC now.

213 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:46:19am

re: #206 iceweasel

Absolutely. That was the most interesting part of the link for me.

We saw it coming as we saw more and more posts on Ron Paul over there.

214 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:46:28am

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

Owning property doesn't indicate that you know what the hell you are voting about. It just indicates that you own property.

That was a bit of a sardonic slam at a straw man, if you will. It was meant to highlight the lack of an objective way to measure electorate "education". I know there's no way to ensure that people who vote know what they're doing.

215 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:46:37am

re: #211 oldegeezr

Whoaah, there Sharmuta...them's fightin' words to El Rushbo...!

He could stand to read them.

216 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:46:59am

re: #204 mwalke5

Not creating more "social safety nets" than we can afford for starters.

Yeah, being contrarians is about their solution to everything. No real solutions with any substance.

217 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:47:00am

re: #165 ignoranceisfatal

Not to be nasty, but it's easy to make glib statements like this. A lot has changed in fifty years, and various things have been added to the curriculum to reflect that. I doubt, for instance, that 1950s schools dedicated anytime to computing classes. Nor that they offered Chinese or other non-traditional languages.

I'm just making the point that if you're going to say civics should take priority, you have to be willing to make serious concessions to give it a bigger place in the curriculum.

Its a question of importance. I think Civics would do a lot more for them in the long run than your average HS computer class or the efforts a school district wastes on providing a variety of fringe classes. Focus on the basics, Math, History, English, and Science and the rest will fall into place.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:47:19am

re: #126 thedopefishlives

How about stupid shit like Dress Like A Muslim Day?

That's been done a bare handful of times, and is hardly a general curriculum feature. It just made a lot of bloggers happily hysterical.

219 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:47:40am

re: #212 jayzee

I wish I kept the woman's name at the RNC that I spoke to when I complained about Paul during the campaign. She said he was in it because the RNC is inclusive (though she declined to answer why Duke was tossed however), nonetheless, I wonder how this RINO feels about the inclusivity of the RNC now.

Only RINOs ask tough questions. You RINO!

220 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:47:56am

re: #191 mwalke5

So you caught my slight attempt at humor?

"All generalizations are dangerous."

Only the Sith deal in absolutes!

221 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:48:00am

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

That's been done a bare handful of times, and is hardly a general curriculum feature. It just made a lot of bloggers happily hysterical.

I was exaggerating slightly to make a point. I'm sure there's a lot of dumb things in the current curriculum that could be removed to make way for proper civics instruction.

222 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #213 Gus 802

We saw it coming as we saw more and more posts on Ron Paul over there.

Yup. And Ed throws red meat to the base there-- the commenters.

223 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:48:48am

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

That's been done a bare handful of times, and is hardly a general curriculum feature. It just made a lot of bloggers happily hysterical.

Happily hysterical... haha.. That does describe them quite well.

224 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #147 recusancy

Department of Energy
Department of Education
ALL benefits for illegal immigrants
The massive waste/fraud in ALL departments (over staffing, government cars which are used a few thousand miles a year, the documented fraud on goverment issued credit cards)
I'd like to see some overseas military bases closed, too.
Most government spending on R&D. Instead, reward the company that produces a useful end product.
Fully implement the old "Grace Commission" suggestions from the 80's (updated, of course)

225 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:05am

At least say a return to the gold standard will solve our fiscal woes. It's freakin' stupid as hell, but at least it's actually SOMETHING.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:15am

re: #152 FrogMarch

OT sorta: Isn't there something wrong with the system when you have to roll Robert Byrd, (a former KKK Klansman) at age 91, out onto the senate floor for a vote. The man has been in the Senate since January 3, 1959. Wrong wrong wrong.

Is this about term limits, or just the dreadfulness of Robert Byrd?

227 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #187 RogueOne

(A.) None of them "propped" them up anywhere near the amount we decided on. When the Germans and the Chinese tell you that "maybe you should be a little more conservative with your spending" then probably you should put the check book down a little bit.
(B.) Those countries that didn't pour good money after bad are the ones leading the recovery, not us.

China

In recent months, the government has unveiled a 4 trillion yuan ($586 billion) stimulus plan and a 850 billion yuan ($124 billion) to expand and revamp an inadequate health care system.

Germany

The largest stimulus package in postwar German history -- and the second such package since the start of the current financial crisis -- was passed on Friday by the German parliament's lower house, the Bundestag. The bill calls for €50 billion in public investments, tax breaks and even cash handouts to junk old cars.

US

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 distributes the $787 billion

Based on the relative size of the economies involved their stimulus spending is about the same as our. Don't let that interfere with the mindless repetition of libertarian talking points.

228 spoosmith  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:39am

re: #29 DaddyG

Not a party I would be interested in joining. I think pot SHOULD be legalized. And taxed.

229 Baier  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:48am

re: #224 right_wing2

Department of Energy
Department of Education
ALL benefits for illegal immigrants
The massive waste/fraud in ALL departments (over staffing, government cars which are used a few thousand miles a year, the documented fraud on goverment issued credit cards)
I'd like to see some overseas military bases closed, too.
Most government spending on R&D. Instead, reward the company that produces a useful end product.
Fully implement the old "Grace Commission" suggestions from the 80's (updated, of course)

How much money benefits illegal immigrants exactly?

230 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #225 Basho

At least say a return to the gold standard will solve our fiscal woes. It's freakin' stupid as hell, but at least it's actually SOMETHING.

?

You're not serious.

231 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:50:00am

re: #216 Basho

Yeah, being contrarians is about their solution to everything. No real solutions with any substance.

It kind of happens when fiscal conservatives are in the minority. Hard to offer "solutions" when the realistic good they can achieve is at opposing the Left's attempt to turn the USA into a full-fledged welfare state.

232 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:50:04am

re: #192 MandyManners

Earlier comments on 'racism' on the part of tea partiers.

233 Baier  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:50:30am

re: #228 spoosmith

Not a party I would be interested in joining. I think pot SHOULD be legalized. And taxed.

And incorporated into brownies, STAT!

234 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:50:30am

Some perspective:

Any time a party loses an election there is a lot of scrapping and clawing for leadership position by the members of that party and even those who have been on the fringes of the party. The Socons are vocal and active but that doesn't mean the world is coming to an end for the center right.

A good illustration is what happens to a football team after a losing season. The boosters and alums all jockey for who the new head coach should be or if the offense or defense should take precidence in the next draft.

Everyone has an opinion, yet history usually repeats itself.

I expect when all is said and done center right candidates will win a majority of the contested seats as the mid-term election swings to the minority party (as it has in all modern mid-term elections).

Both parties will continue to tar each other as whack-jobs and the loonies among us will continue to get good press. That is the way of the politicos and pundits.

235 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:29am

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Based on the relative size of the economies involved their stimulus spending is about the same as our. Don't let that interfere with the mindless repetition of libertarian talking points.

Yes, comparing us to China is a sure fire way to refute those darned Libertarians.

236 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:29am

I don't think the problem is the American people and government lack the means to fund that which we feel is important.

It's that we spend what we do have recklessly.

237 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:31am

re: #230 Racer X

?

You're not serious.

I hope he is. I got some gold plated tungsten I'm trying to offload.

238 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:47am

re: #190 lawhawk

Every functioning government passed a stimulus to create jobs?


As far as I can tell, yes. Search google news for stimulus a few times a week and see what's going on around the world. Aside from a few countries in sub-Saharan Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia) I think pretty much everyone passed a stimulus package.

239 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:55am

re: #217 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its a question of importance. I think Civics would do a lot more for them in the long run than your average HS computer class or the efforts a school district wastes on providing a variety of fringe classes. Focus on the basics, Math, History, English, and Science and the rest will fall into place.

I agree with all of that except for computers. Learning about them IS necesary. Not all kids have their own at home.

240 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:51:59am

re: #224 right_wing2

Downdinged for being against government funding science research. We need basic science research, and corporations will not fund it.

It's also easy to talk about going after waste and fraud without in any way talking about HOW to identify waste and fraud.

241 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:52:13am

re: #237 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I hope he is. I got some gold plated tungsten I'm trying to offload.

That was you? I have some associates in Hong Kong who'd like to speak with you.

242 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Based on the relative size of the economies involved their stimulus spending is about the same as our. Don't let that interfere with the mindless repetition of libertarian talking points.

/can't we add China's spending to our total?

243 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:52:56am

re: #231 mwalke5

It kind of happens when fiscal conservatives are in the minority. Hard to offer "solutions" when the realistic good they can achieve is at opposing the Left's attempt to turn the USA into a full-fledged welfare state.

The left may want more social programs, but they are a response to real problems. Simply saying no let's keep things going where they are and maybe cut the corporate tax rate won't better society. At least the left tries to come up with solutions.

244 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:07am
Should the “Tea Party” movement organize itself to run congressional candidates across the country, it would poll better than the Republican Party, according to a new survey by Rasmussen Reports.


Wouldn't it be good if those tea-party-freaks organize as an independent party? This way, they can't harm the GOP from within and people like Ron Paul wouldn't have such an influence.

245 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:16am

re: #241 Guanxi88

That was you? I have some associates in Hong Kong who'd like to speak with you.

I KNOW NOTHING! NOTHING!!!

246 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:17am

re: #232 right_wing2

Earlier comments on 'racism' on the part of tea partiers.

Are you denying that there were some racists at some tea parties?

247 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:41am

re: #240 Obdicut

Downdinged for being against government funding science research. We need basic science research, and corporations will not fund it.

It's also easy to talk about going after waste and fraud without in any way talking about HOW to identify waste and fraud.

Start auditing them and watch how quickly the threat of punishment for fraud diminishes the problem.

248 CommonCents  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:48am

re: #134 DaddyG

Now Biden! That is some real window dressing. /

HA! Makes me think of the Chinese district where they have the chickens hanging in the window. And I'm not proposing hanging, killing, or plucking the VP. Just the useless rubber chicken imagery.

249 jayzee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:53:48am

re: #219 Sharmuta

Only RINOs ask tough questions. You RINO!

You know, I really want my party back.

250 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:54:09am

We talk about fiscally conservative, no one is fiscally conservative. Not a soul. It's what the voters want but neither side has been able to achieve it in 20 years.

While Republicans and Democrats focus on social issues, they're in two different camps altogether. The "social" issues that Republicans (Tea Party Reps? I don't know how to separate the Right) are focusing on are not social as much as moral (i.e. abortion, gay rights). The social issues Democrats focus on are truly social issues (i.e. environment, education).

Folks may be getting a bit disenchanted with Obama, hard to live up to all that hype, but he's still a Democrat and I believe, I could be wrong, that the majority of this country does want not the Right back in power anytime soon.

251 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:54:20am

re: #249 jayzee

You know, I really want my party back.

Me too.

252 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:54:50am

re: #224 right_wing2

Department of Energy
Department of Education
ALL benefits for illegal immigrants
The massive waste/fraud in ALL departments (over staffing, government cars which are used a few thousand miles a year, the documented fraud on goverment issued credit cards)
I'd like to see some overseas military bases closed, too.
Most government spending on R&D. Instead, reward the company that produces a useful end product.
Fully implement the old "Grace Commission" suggestions from the 80's (updated, of course)

Do you know some of the most cutting edge research on renewable energy sources have come out of programs and projects of the Department of Energy? The National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden Colorado has been producing patent award winning research and then transferring the technology on to the private sector at little or no cost to private industry. Did you know that this has been going on over 30 years? This is a prime example of taxpayers money going to a non-military program that benefits not only our own private industry, but benefits the whole world.

So, you want to cut these programs, huh?

253 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:54:54am

re: #243 Basho

The left may want more social programs, but they are a response to real problems. Simply saying no let's keep things going where they are and maybe cut the corporate tax rate won't better society. At least the left tries to come up with solutions.

Solution # 1 to healthcare: Cap non compensatory med mal damages.

The Left's solution? BAN states from capping non compensatory med mal damages.

254 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:05am

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Based on the relative size of the economies involved their stimulus spending is about the same as our. Don't let that interfere with the mindless repetition of libertarian talking points.

Libertarian talking points? Like the NY Times?
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

The United States is pressing for a coordinated package of stimulus plans by member countries to encourage economic growth, something that Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek of the Czech Republic, which holds the European Union presidency, has called “a way to hell.”

But virtually all European governments, led by budget-conscious Germany, are resisting the American pitch, saying the focus should be on stricter regulation of financial markets

Don't let that interfere with the mindless repetition of Obama talking points.

255 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:09am

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

Don't forget that a lot of the spending on consumables is fueled by consumer debt. At least with consumables there is value added to resources and labor. Somewhere along the line there has to be an adult in the room to say that 33% of our economy is too much to spend, no matter who is spending it. The rate of inflation is the industry is out of proportion to the level of quality. Life expectancy has only increased marginally, infant mortality is no better than ten years ago. Medical mistakes are a huge factor in the amount of money we spend, but some think the solution is tort reform. HUH?

256 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:25am

I was not kidding at all, by the way. The upsurge of tea parties is a big reason why I'm gone from the right and from the GOP. I'm finished with being associated with this kind of atavistic craziness.

257 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:35am

re: #245 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I KNOW NOTHING! NOTHING!!!

Tell them, not me.

258 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #239 MandyManners

I agree with all of that except for computers. Learning about them IS necesary. Not all kids have their own at home.

My own experiences with High School Computer classes tainted me. Both the instructors we had were barely computer literate, whose idea of teaching was reading the text books out loud to us.

259 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:55:54am

re: #239 MandyManners

I agree with all of that except for computers. Learning about them IS necesary. Not all kids have their own at home.

Kids should be learning on computers, this will have the effect of learning about computers.

260 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:56:15am

re: #247 Sharmuta

Start auditing them and watch how quickly the threat of punishment for fraud diminishes the problem.

But seriously, what counts as waste and fraud? What are the metrics? It's not an easy question, especially when you're talking about programs that have somewhat ineffable goals.

261 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:56:21am

re: #230 Racer X

?

You're not serious.

You missed the context. I'm sick of these wingnuts being obstructionists. Let them place concrete solutions on the table instead of dismissing people actually trying to solve things.

262 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:56:28am

re: #214 thedopefishlives

That was a bit of a sardonic slam at a straw man, if you will. It was meant to highlight the lack of an objective way to measure electorate "education". I know there's no way to ensure that people who vote know what they're doing.

Which, as i'm sure you'll agree, is why 99% of our ancestors migrated to this continent in the first place. Because usually "know what you're doing" ends up equating to "agreeing with whoever is in power"...

263 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:09am

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My own experiences with High School Computer classes tainted me. Both the instructors we had were barely computer literate, whose idea of teaching was reading the text books out loud to us.

How long ago was that?

I'm not talking about writing code. I'm talking about using a computer, knowing what it can do and how it can do it.

264 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:22am

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Is this about term limits, or just the dreadfulness of Robert Byrd?

yes.

I think there should be term limits. Byrd's been in there since 1959. That's 8 terms. I think we should keep it down to 3 or 4. If this is a tea party talking point - I don't really care. It's common sense. I doubt our founders saw a future where old KKKers served 50 years in office.
If congress can regulate us to death, we should be able to set limits as well.

265 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:30am

re: #259 DaddyG

Kids should be learning on computers, this will have the effect of learning about computers.

Precisely.

266 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My own experiences with High School Computer classes tainted me. Both the instructors we had were barely computer literate, whose idea of teaching was reading the text books out loud to us.

This raises the next thorny point of getting teachers who can do a better job of teaching civics. Also not an easy task to pull off.

267 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:52am

re: #260 Obdicut

But seriously, what counts as waste and fraud? What are the metrics? It's not an easy question, especially when you're talking about programs that have somewhat ineffable goals.

waste is hard to define, fraud is fraud.

268 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:52am

As a fairly liberal (okay, extremely progressive, I'll be honest) democrat, I welcome this strategy by the Teabaggers' efforts to transform the GOP into a political afterthought--except I don't believe a one-party system would be good for this country. I'd much rather have a few Lincoln Chafees across the aisle and a 52-48 split in the Senate, at most. It is obvious that my party is incapable of handling a filibuster proof majority, let alone a super-majority (as evidenced by their ineptitude during the Carter admin).

And to both parties I say this, being in the minority doesn't make you irrelevant. Complaining about not having a voice and not trying to contribute constructively to the debate, however, does. Grow a pair and try looking for common ground...there's more out there than you realize.

269 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:56am

re: #262 Aceofwhat?

Which, as i'm sure you'll agree, is why 99% of our ancestors migrated to this continent in the first place. Because usually "know what you're doing" ends up equating to "agreeing with whoever is in power"...

Migrated?

270 sagehen  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:57:58am

re: #148 thedopefishlives

I have this exact same argument all the time, and I finally came up with a decent analogy that worked. Here at work, we get paid Christmas bonuses based on whether or not the company met certain financial goals for the year. Employees always complain that their individual job performance doesn't have any direct link to them earning their bonus.

Point them at team sports.

If your team makes the playoffs, you all share in the extra TV money. If you win the championship, you each get a ring. Nobody resents that the third-string benchwarmer gets his too, and the kicker doesn't demand a piece-rate for each FG.

271 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:58:02am

re: #250 marjoriemoon

Folks may be getting a bit disenchanted with Obama, hard to live up to all that hype, but he's still a Democrat and I believe, I could be wrong, that the majority of this country does want not the Right back in power anytime soon.

I assume most here have some form of adulation (worship) for Reagan... Here is some interesting info showing how eerily similar Obama is to him in popularity and circumstances.

272 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:58:14am

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Because, IMHO, a group of 3 year olds pulling slips of paper out of a hat would make better decisions than this fool? Ok, so I'm not kissing the Bamster's backside. Oh frickin' well.

The only good liberal politician is an unemployed one.

Let's make sure Obama's unemployed in 2012. Of course, then he'll just go back to poisoning the minds of college kids or some BS like that.

273 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:58:26am

re: #256 Charles

I was not kidding at all, by the way. The upsurge of tea parties is a big reason why I'm gone from the right and from the GOP. I'm finished with being associated with this kind of atavistic craziness.

Good for you. It's a reasonable choice. The Tea Parties have a veneer of grass roots politics, but that is only a veneer. Deep down, it's a well organized racist, anarchist group with little or no care for the well-being of the country...

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:58:40am

re: #180 MandyManners

Oh, for pity's sake. We don't need to teach Chinese and the like as a requirement.

We should put emphasis on foreign languages, and having Chinese speakers doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

275 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:58:48am

re: #260 Obdicut

But seriously, what counts as waste and fraud? What are the metrics? It's not an easy question, especially when you're talking about programs that have somewhat ineffable goals.

These are matters of fiscal principles that I think conservatives should be discussing, but we are busy watching the birdie instead. I think I heard Malia's shoe was untied today. It's proof the Obama's are bad parents, and clearly we should focus on that all important issue instead of discussing real fiscal issues that matter. ///

276 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:59:30am

re: #262 Aceofwhat?

Which, as i'm sure you'll agree, is why 99% of our ancestors migrated to this continent in the first place. Because usually "know what you're doing" ends up equating to "agreeing with whoever is in power"...

ALL of our ancestors migrated here.

277 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:00:16am

re: #263 MandyManners

How long ago was that?

I'm not talking about writing code. I'm talking about using a computer, knowing what it can do and how it can do it.

Early 90s, and this was supposed to be the intro to computers course, set up, turn on, basic operations. I learned more sitting at home and just playing with the machine over a weekend than I did in a whole semester in that class.

278 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:00:21am

re: #261 Basho

You missed the context. I'm sick of these wingnuts being obstructionists. Let them place concrete solutions on the table instead of dismissing people actually trying to solve things.

Context or no, going back to the gold standard is not possible.

279 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:00:29am

re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist

We should put emphasis on foreign languages, and having Chinese speakers doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

Not to the exclusion of teaching American history and civics.

280 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:01:03am

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Early 90s, and this was supposed to be the intro to computers course, set up, turn on, basic operations. I learned more sitting at home and just playing with the machine over a weekend than I did in a whole semester in that class.

*shaking cane*

281 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:01:04am

re: #240 Obdicut

Downdinged for being against government funding science research. We need basic science research, and corporations will not fund it.

It's also easy to talk about going after waste and fraud without in any way talking about HOW to identify waste and fraud.

As a fiscal conservative, i agree completely. However, government research is best used in a focused manner. When we wanted to get to the moon, we got there. During this past stimulus, it seemed like some of the funds were distributed a little more generically than has typically been useful. Would have been nice to see BO focus on solutions, rather than jobs, i.e. "we're going to make solar power as cheap and reliable as coal power" or "we're going to revamp our electricity grid so that we don't lose half of our power during transmission".

Then the spinoffs from the initial government funds have an excellent chance of repaying the initial funds through commercialization.

282 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:01:20am

re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist

We should put emphasis on foreign languages, and having Chinese speakers doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

Chinese students are studying English in the not-unreasonable belief that learning a non-Sinic foreign language will improve their overall skill-sets, and that learning the lingua franca of modernity improves their chances of success in the global marketplace. Our kids (and my #1 daughter is starting her instruction early) need to learn at least Mandarin, in the not-unreasonable belief that learning a totally non-Western language will be a powerful stimulant to their brains, and that it never hurts to know the lingua franca of fully 1/4 of the world's population.

283 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #276 MandyManners

ALL of our ancestors migrated here.

"We are stardust"

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:01:35am

re: #221 thedopefishlives

I was exaggerating slightly to make a point. I'm sure there's a lot of dumb things in the current curriculum that could be removed to make way for proper civics instruction.

What do you imagine proper civics instruction would include that's not currently part of the state standards?

285 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:10am

re: #215 Sharmuta

“…I'm not so sure a Tea Party will work, but maybe a RINO! party would.”

That would result in the cracking of his frontal fissure and uncontrolled separation of his skull cap…!
Florida would experience a second location for explosive liftoffs…!

286 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:11am

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

Good for you. It's a reasonable choice. The Tea Parties have a veneer of grass roots politics, but that is only a veneer. Deep down, it's a well organized racist, anarchist group with little or no care for the well-being of the country...

That is exactly what I discovered when I started looking at my local tea-party organizers.

Note to anyone here still defending the tea parties: I did not take anybody's word for anything. I read what was posted here and did my own research into my own local "tea party" effort, and did not like what I saw. I suggest you do your own research before continuing to defend these efforts.

287 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:19am

re: #253 mwalke5

Solution # 1 to healthcare: Cap non compensatory med mal damages.

The Left's solution? BAN states from capping non compensatory med mal damages.

I thought solution number one was stopping federal funds from going to insurance companies in evil league with planned parenthood.

288 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:32am

re: #283 Racer X

"We are stardust"

I'm golden.

289 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:38am

re: #263 MandyManners

How long ago was that?

I'm not talking about writing code. I'm talking about using a computer, knowing what it can do and how it can do it.

All you need to do is own an old computer and give your kids limited access. My little daughter knows more by playing barbies online than she'd ever learn in some basic how-to class!

290 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:46am

re: #272 right_wing2

A) There no record of Obama ever "poisoning" anyone's mind while he was a university professor. Unless of course you believe everything you read at World Nut Daily.

B) There will always be liberal politicians because this is a democracy and there are liberals in this nation. If you want to live in a country void of liberals you might want to move to some other country.

291 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:52am

re: #278 Racer X

Context or no, going back to the gold standard is not possible.

Didn't I say it was stupid?

292 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:02:54am

re: #272 right_wing2

Because, IMHO, a group of 3 year olds pulling slips of paper out of a hat would make better decisions than this fool? Ok, so I'm not kissing the Bamster's backside. Oh frickin' well.

The only good liberal politician is an unemployed one.

Let's make sure Obama's unemployed in 2012. Of course, then he'll just go back to poisoning the minds of college kids or some BS like that.

I made a reasoned comment about a very positive government funded program, and all you did was come back with some "stupid" above.

What the fuck does your comment have to do with my insight into the renewable energy research being supported by our government?

You have a one track mind. Don't waste my time.

293 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:03:17am

re: #283 Racer X

"We are stardust"

My grandpappy didn't come from no star!

///

294 ghazidor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:03:17am

OT: The other shoe just dropped, now we know how Obama can promise a 17% reduction in greenhouse emissions by 2020 without congressional backing.

EPA says greenhouse gases are harmful

WASHINGTON - The Environmental Protection Agency has concluded greenhouse gases are endangering people's health and must be regulated, signaling that the Obama administration is prepared to contain global warming without congressional action if necessary.

EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson scheduled a news conference for later Monday to announce the so-called endangerment finding, officials told The Associated Press, speaking privately because the announcement had not been made.

MSNBC Video

Screw congressional approval, the EPA is just going to regulate emissions cuts to prevent the "health hazard." I knew he had to be planning some BS like this.

295 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #275 Sharmuta

I agree. I'd much rather try to figure out, pragmatically, what system would work best for keeping our government responsible.

But instead, voters seem to continually look for people who will somehow magically transform government when elected.

The system is the thing. The Founding Fathers knew that. It's not that the politicians we elect aren't important, but the system they work within is what endures, and that's what should occupy most of our deliberation.

296 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:03:43am

re: #254 RogueOne

Those numbers are not correct. Google "Germany Stimulus" yourself and see how much they are spending. The package they passed was over 50 billion Euros. That's a fact.

297 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:03:53am

re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist

We should put emphasis on foreign languages, and having Chinese speakers doesn't sound like a half bad idea.

A little more Mandarin, Arabic, and Spanish can only help in dealing with the language groups that our country will be needing to engage in the future.

298 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:02am

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

All you need to do is own an old computer and give your kids limited access. My little daughter knows more by playing barbies online than she'd ever learn in some basic how-to class!

That's kinda' what I'm talking about. It's why I got The Kid his first lap-top when he was four.

299 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:07am

re: #238 Killgore Trout

China is a command oriented government - and while they put on appearances that they're moving towards capitalism, the spending is just more government spending and adjusting which government entities are getting money. Germany's spending is more in line with what the US does, but even there, there's a definite socialist streak in what they did.

And as Rogue 1 pointed out above, the US was pressuring other countries to jump in with a stimulus package of their own, even though the stimulus package in the US was ill-conceived and not focused on job creation in the short term (to mitigate effects of recession) or on long term rehabilitation of infrastructure, despite claims otherwise. Most of the money in the stimulus plan was to help states balance their out of whack budgets as a one-shot financial deal. And even that couldn't hide the massive deficits in places like NY, NJ, and CA, which have ongoing deficits in the billions.

Instead of getting spending in line with revenues, deficit spending accelerated.

300 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:30am

re: #295 Obdicut

I agree. I'd much rather try to figure out, pragmatically, what system would work best for keeping our government responsible.

But instead, voters seem to continually look for people who will somehow magically transform government when elected.

The system is the thing. The Founding Fathers knew that. It's not that the politicians we elect aren't important, but the system they work within is what endures, and that's what should occupy most of our deliberation.

You mean pandering?

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:33am

re: #217 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its a question of importance. I think Civics would do a lot more for them in the long run than your average HS computer class or the efforts a school district wastes on providing a variety of fringe classes. Focus on the basics, Math, History, English, and Science and the rest will fall into place.

Your wish has come true--most districts are, in fact, cutting such extras as music, art, sports and such, and 'focusing on the basics', which are all we can afford. It's not to our benefit, if you ask me.

302 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:35am

re: #281 Aceofwhat?

During this past stimulus, it seemed like some of the funds were distributed a little more generically than has typically been useful. Would have been nice to see BO focus on solutions, rather than jobs, i.e. "we're going to make solar power as cheap and reliable as coal power" or "we're going to revamp our electricity grid so that we don't lose half of our power during transmission".

I assure you- some of the stimulus went towards exactly that. This is what they're talking about with "green jobs". People starting work on the infrastructure needed to support green energy- it is happening, and more is coming.

303 Baier  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #272 right_wing2

Because, IMHO, a group of 3 year olds pulling slips of paper out of a hat would make better decisions than this fool? Ok, so I'm not kissing the Bamster's backside. Oh frickin' well.

The only good liberal politician is an unemployed one.

Let's make sure Obama's unemployed in 2012. Of course, then he'll just go back to poisoning the minds of college kids or some BS like that.

If it's between Obama and Palin? Welcome back Mr. President!
I'm not going to vote Obama out of office just because.

304 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #297 recusancy

A little more Mandarin, Arabic, and Spanish can only help in dealing with the language groups that our country will be needing to engage in the future.

And so these should be required learning for all American students, at the expense of knowing how our own government works and how basic free-market capitalist economic principles operate? No thanks.

305 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #293 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My grandpappy didn't come from no star!

///

But... but... but... panspermia!

306 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:05:58am

re: #294 ausador

Wrong way to go about this, imho. This will just rile up the folks who are already riled up. We're better off subsidizing nuclear power and continuing to tighten actual harmful emissions, whose effects are often more immediate and poisonous than co2.

307 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:05:59am

re: #294 ausador

OT: The other shoe just dropped, now we know how Obama can promise a 17% reduction in greenhouse emissions by 2020 without congressional backing.

EPA says greenhouse gases are harmful


[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Screw congressional approval, the EPA is just going to regulate emissions cuts to prevent the "health hazard." I knew he had to be planning some BS like this.


without congressional action if necessary.

I.e., without our chance to raise hell with our elected representatives.

Looks like he learned a lesson from the health care debate.

308 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #294 ausador

I think the Supreme Court had something to do with that. If I remember, a couple of years ago some environmental group won a case against the EPA over that very issue.

309 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:06:06am

re: #305 MrSilverDragon

But... but... but... panspermia!

You sick little puppy, you!

310 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #294 ausador

That tracks from a decision by the US Supreme Court in 2007, which ruled that CO2 was a pollutant. Now, the EPA will step in and issue guidelines if Congress does not.

Once the Courts ruled it was a pollutant, it was only a matter of time before a president (and it could have been either side of the aisle) would have deemed it necessary to control and limit (and therefore tax).

311 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #297 recusancy

A little more Mandarin, Arabic, and Spanish can only help in dealing with the language groups that our country will be needing to engage in the future.

The Chinese will learn and take us down in perfect English. No worries.

312 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:06:57am

re: #294 ausador

OT: The other shoe just dropped, now we know how Obama can promise a 17% reduction in greenhouse emissions by 2020 without congressional backing.

EPA says greenhouse gases are harmful

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Screw congressional approval, the EPA is just going to regulate emissions cuts to prevent the "health hazard." I knew he had to be planning some BS like this.

That was the solution proposed in the video Charles posted yesterday.

313 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:03am

re: #309 Guanxi88

You sick little puppy, you!

Wrong genus, but correct sentiment...

314 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:15am

re: #295 Obdicut

Have you ever read Reinventing Government by Osborne & Gaebler? Might give you a lot of food for thought.

315 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:20am

Wow, Ed Morrissey is out of his freaking mind. Just read his post about this, and his prescription for the future of the GOP is for them to "represent the Tea Party brand."

Hey, everybody! Let's all jump over the cliff! Those aren't rocks at the bottom, they're soft pillows of fiscal responsibility! Come on, it won't hurt!

316 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:46am

re: #246 MandyManners

But were they a majority? Even a sizable minority?

A friend of mine was at the 9/12 DC tea party, and said that at least personally, he didn't see any signs that'd be 'racist'. I know, he didn't see every sign out there, but I don't think it could have been this massive, all-racist rally if you could avoid signs like that.

317 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #312 recusancy

That was the solution proposed in the video Charles posted yesterday.

I was going to say exactly that. If you don't think EPA caps are a good idea, and don't like cap and trade, what's left?

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:07:51am

re: #266 ignoranceisfatal

This raises the next thorny point of getting teachers who can do a better job of teaching civics. Also not an easy task to pull off.

The currently fashionable theory is that we'll do it by recruiting the best and brightest for a handful of years right out of college, throw huge amounts of momey at them, and then after burning them out with insane demands, recycle them into high-status jobs in the public sector.

This will obviously work better than actually considering teaching a profession.

//very bitter

319 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:08:35am

re: #316 right_wing2

But were they a majority? Even a sizable minority?

A friend of mine was at the 9/12 DC tea party, and said that at least personally, he didn't see any signs that'd be 'racist'. I know, he didn't see every sign out there, but I don't think it could have been this massive, all-racist rally if you could avoid signs like that.

Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

320 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:08:37am

re: #302 Sharmuta

I assure you- some of the stimulus went towards exactly that. This is what they're talking about with "green jobs". People starting work on the infrastructure needed to support green energy- it is happening, and more is coming.

I know, but it's unfocused. I strongly believe we see better results when we make the objective the objective (ultra safe nuclear energy, reliable solar energy, functioning lightsabers, etc) and let the jobs be created as a result...versus making jobs the objective.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:08:44am

re: #279 MandyManners

Not to the exclusion of teaching American history and civics.

Who doesn't teach American history and civics?

322 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:01am

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

All you need to do is own an old computer and give your kids limited access. My little daughter knows more by playing barbies online than she'd ever learn in some basic how-to class!

...a great way to learn boolean logic is to constantly search for new sources of...

...um

...never mind.

323 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:22am

re: #315 Charles

Wow, Ed Morrissey is out of his freaking mind. Just read his post about this, and his prescription for the future of the GOP is for them to "represent the Tea Party brand."

Hey, everybody! Let's all jump over the cliff! Those aren't rocks at the bottom, they're soft pillows of fiscal responsibility! Come on, it won't hurt!

Charles, you could've ended that post after the first sentence.

324 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:31am

re: #314 Sharmuta

Have you ever read Reinventing Government by Osborne & Gaebler? Might give you a lot of food for thought.

No, I haven't! Thanks very much for the recommendation, I'm always looking for books like that. I'll put it on my Christmas list.

325 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:31am

This is case in point why I don't like the Left...when all else fails, Play the race card.

326 right_wing2  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:35am

re: #290 Gus 802

I realize there will always be libs. I just don't want 'em in power.

And I fully believe that Obama has no clue what the Constitution says, as evidenced from the people & policies he supports.

327 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

All you need to do is own an old computer and give your kids limited access. My little daughter knows more by playing barbies online than she'd ever learn in some basic how-to class!

I was given an Atari 400 when I was a little kid. Worked for me!

"Dammit kid, if you want to play video games, you are GOING to learn to network those DOS machines over IPX protocol! No dinner for you until you get both your mouse drivers AND VESA drivers under the 640K barrier!"

328 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:44am

re: #294 ausador

OT: The other shoe just dropped, now we know how Obama can promise a 17% reduction in greenhouse emissions by 2020 without congressional backing.

EPA says greenhouse gases are harmful

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Screw congressional approval, the EPA is just going to regulate emissions cuts to prevent the "health hazard." I knew he had to be planning some BS like this.

You don't think this was time to correspond with Copenhagen, do you?

329 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #315 Charles

Wow, Ed Morrissey is out of his freaking mind. Just read his post about this, and his prescription for the future of the GOP is for them to "represent the Tea Party brand."

Hey, everybody! Let's all jump over the cliff! Those aren't rocks at the bottom, they're soft pillows of fiscal responsibility! Come on, it won't hurt!

Hot Air goes revanchist.

I wonder if Malkin will follow.

330 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Your wish has come true--most districts are, in fact, cutting such extras as music, art, sports and such, and 'focusing on the basics', which are all we can afford. It's not to our benefit, if you ask me.

Actually, what I see a lot is them laying off new teachers who dont have tenure and pulling back tenured teachers from "resource" positions, meaning they haven't actually been in a classroom for years. 8 good teachers at my kid's school got let go and the people they brought in from the District offices are noticabley worse. Meanwhile, they make sure the Teacher's Union makes sure it takes care of its own first and foremost while the kids get less and everything revolves around passing the state tests so they can get their funding and not on actually teaching the kids.

331 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:07am

re: #316 right_wing2

But were they a majority? Even a sizable minority?

A friend of mine was at the 9/12 DC tea party, and said that at least personally, he didn't see any signs that'd be 'racist'. I know, he didn't see every sign out there, but I don't think it could have been this massive, all-racist rally if you could avoid signs like that.

Not this again.

I posted dozens and dozens of pictures of incredibly hateful signs, including many that were flat-out racist, from the Washington DC tea party. There were at least FOUR long posts about this. And still people are going to try to deny it.

332 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:11am

re: #315 Charles

Wow, Ed Morrissey is out of his freaking mind. Just read his post about this, and his prescription for the future of the GOP is for them to "represent the Tea Party brand."

I'm sure it was difficult for him to shift from the religious nut camp though.

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:16am

re: #298 MandyManners

That's kinda' what I'm talking about. It's why I got The Kid his first lap-top when he was four.

There are not enough updings m/

334 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:27am

re: #325 mwalke5

He's comparing Republicans to Democrats?

335 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:46am

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

Who doesn't teach American history and civics?

The United States?

336 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:10:57am

re: #316 right_wing2

But were they a majority? Even a sizable minority?

A friend of mine was at the 9/12 DC tea party, and said that at least personally, he didn't see any signs that'd be 'racist'. I know, he didn't see every sign out there, but I don't think it could have been this massive, all-racist rally if you could avoid signs like that.

Wrong question.

Right question = if the founders of the party are even a teeny bit smelling of racism, isn't showing up to the party admitting tacit support?

I may agree on many points with many of the attendees. but if you see me there, tell my wife, because i'm dead.

337 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #326 right_wing2

I realize there will always be libs. I just don't want 'em in power.

And I fully believe that Obama has no clue what the Constitution says, as evidenced from the people & policies he supports.

Ha! He must have been a bad professor then when he was teaching constitutional law at Chicago.

338 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #327 WindUpBird

I was given an Atari 400 when I was a little kid. Worked for me!

"Dammit kid, if you want to play video games, you are GOING to learn to network those DOS machines over IPX protocol! No dinner for you until you get both your mouse drivers AND VESA drivers under the 640K barrier!"


lmao

339 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:12:02am

re: #296 Killgore Trout

Those numbers are not correct. Google "Germany Stimulus" yourself and see how much they are spending. The package they passed was over 50 billion Euros. That's a fact.

But that doesn't change anything about our variety of stimulus packages. We overspent and got close to nothing for it. We got so little for it they're still talking about having to do another round of stimulus spending which just goes to show how out of touch our elected officials actually are. It's the spending that is driving this electoral revolt, nothing else. This whole mood isn't anything that just started after the last presidential election, this has been going on for years now.

340 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:12:08am

re: #311 Basho

The Chinese will learn and take us down in perfect English. No worries.

Ain't that the truth.

Want a little perspective on the serious powerhouse that China's about to become? Take a peak at this little column, on the subject of the number of classical piano students in the PRC and what it means. Stunning stuff:


Meanwhile, in China, 60 million children are learning Western classical music under the gimlet gaze of strict teachers. East Asian singers, particularly Koreans, are working their way up the ranks of provincial opera companies, and every one of them sings better than Boyle. Who do you think is going to run the world 20 years from now? As the Italians say, we're bolliti, "boiled". Now we can spell it with a "y". I hate to always be the one to say this, but the hope is fatuous. No, you can't.

With no prejudice to Boyle, who seems amused rather than beguiled by her success, the fantasy-life of nations has consequences in the real world. In China, as I observed in a recent essay (China's six-to-one advantage over the US, Asia Times Online, December 2, 2008), nearly 40 million children study classical piano, and another 15 million or so learn to play stringed instruments. Nearly 60 million young Chinese in all are learning Western classical music, and learning it the hard way, under teachers who demand mastery of technique, paid by parents who have scraped together tuition and demand regular practice. Sixty million is a big number, considering that there are only 30 million Americans aged five to 18. Of these, perhaps 5 or 6 million study piano, but few with the intensity of their Chinese counterparts.

A century ago, middle-class Western girls learned piano to make them more marriageable. Chinese children learn piano because their canny parents know that it will make them more likely to succeed academically, and make considerable sacrifices to pay for lessons. Of course, a few Chinese become concert artists. At the music conservatory on whose board I serve, the best instrumentalists usually are East Asian or Eastern European, with the occasional Israeli thrown in. Most of the up-and-coming East Asian concert artists have a keen sense of classical style, and some show deep insight into Western music.
...
China's thrift, industry and diligence are qualities born of long experience with hard times. The terrible suffering of the 19th and 20th centuries left every Chinese parent with the conviction that the world shows no mercy to mediocrity. They have less tolerance for fantasy than their Western counterparts. Reality has intruded on their lives for generations to the point that they are ready to meet it head on. Enough of them devote their lives to making their children excel as to produce an army of hothouse wonders so large as to swamp whatever competition the West might send against them. If Westerners think the present recession is unpleasant, they cannot begin to imagine how the recovery will look, for it may occur entirely remote to them, on the other side of the world.

It is harder and harder to dismiss the awful thought that Americans, too, might require long experience with hard times to restore the sort of diligence that their Chinese counterparts learned at such a high price.

341 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:12:51am

re: #324 Obdicut

It's really dry reading, and only interesting to die-hards, so be warned. :)

But the book got a lot of bi-partisan support when it came out, and there are a lot of interesting ideas they discuss that I think are still very relevant to now. You might really enjoy it.

342 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:12:59am

re: #302 Sharmuta

I assure you- some of the stimulus went towards exactly that. This is what they're talking about with "green jobs". People starting work on the infrastructure needed to support green energy- it is happening, and more is coming.

People don't seem to understand just how much infrastructure spending we've been putting off. Not entitlements, not social programs, the basics. Sewers, bridges, roads, electrical grids...

343 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:13:00am

re: #326 right_wing2

I realize there will always be libs. I just don't want 'em in power.

And I fully believe that Obama has no clue what the Constitution says, as evidenced from the people & policies he supports.

If that were true then he would have violated the Constitution by now. That would subject him to impeachment. Nothing of the case has occurred to prove this to be true and the GOP would have jumped at the opportunity by now.

Unless of course you're thinking about some imaginary violation of the Constitution and support a subsequent imaginary impeachment. Let me guess. Birth certificate perhaps?

344 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:13:12am

OK, California State Standards include:

For Kindergarten

K.1 Students understand that being a good citizen involves acting in certain ways.
1.
Follow rules, such as sharing and taking turns, and know the consequences of breaking
them.
2.
Learn examples of honesty, courage, determination, individual responsibility, and patriotism in American and world history from stories and folklore.
3.
Know beliefs and related behaviors of characters in stories from times past and understand
the consequences of the characters’ actions.
K.2 Students recognize national and state symbols and icons such as the national and state flags, the bald eagle, and the Statue of Liberty.

345 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:13:42am

re: #276 MandyManners

ALL of our ancestors migrated here.

Reminds me of a trip I took last year to the Navajo nation and then some of the surrounding reservations.

The Hopi, for instance, take great exception to Navajo claims of victimization and see the Navajo as aggressive occupiers and newcomers. Genetically, the Navajo (and Apache) are Athabaskan and migrated from current day Alaska/Canada.

But there are die hard Navajo nationalists that simply speak of "anasazi" ("the people before us") who just disappeared from the lands mysteriously and the Navajo just came to be on said lands.

It is an interesting cultural phenom that plays out today as you have academics who take up the narrative of one side or the other in a circus of self-delusional praise of "peoples" that reflects a "noble savage" bias. All while when some simple archeological, anthropological and genetic facts make it relatively easy to see what happened.

All said (and as you allude to), hominids did not evolve separately on this continent with a wildly unlikely parallel DNA structure to those who emigrated from Africa.

346 Basho  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:13:57am

re: #340 Guanxi88

Do you have a link? I want to bookmark it.

347 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:14:33am

re: #343 Gus 802

If that were true then he would have violated the Constitution by now. That would subject him to impeachment.

Not true. He would only be subjected to impeachment for crimes and misdemeanors. If he engages in policies that are found to be unconstitutional, those policies will simply be struck down.

Wasn't someone speaking about the need for civics lessons earlier?

348 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:14:40am

re: #342 WindUpBird

People don't seem to understand just how much infrastructure spending we've been putting off. Not entitlements, not social programs, the basics. Sewers, bridges, roads, electrical grids...

But didn't you know. When you build something once it stays in place and in working condition forever. We already built roads and bridges. Why do we have to build them again??? ///

349 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:14:40am

re: #325 mwalke5

This is case in point why I don't like the Left...when all else fails, Play the race card.

Apologize for actual real racists, then bitch about the Left playing the race card. How unique and original!

350 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:14:47am

re: #346 Basho

Do you have a link? I want to bookmark it.

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

351 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:14:56am

re: #343 Gus 802

I wonder what happened to right_wing_1?

352 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:15:10am

re: #348 recusancy

But didn't you know. When you build something once it stays in place and in working condition forever. We already built roads and bridges. Why do we have to build them again??? ///

Concrete lasts forever! It's like adamantium!

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:15:45am

First Grade:

1.1 Students describe the rights and individual responsibilities of citizenship.
1.
Understand the rule-making process in a direct democracy (everyone votes on the rules) and in a representative democracy (an elected group of people make the rules), giving examples of both systems in their classroom, school, and community.
2.
Understand the elements of fair play and good sportsmanship, respect for the rights and opinions of others, and respect for rules by which we live, including the meaning of the “Golden Rule.”
1.2 Students compare and contrast the absolute and relative locations of places and people and describe the physical and/or human characteristics of places.
1.
Locate on maps and globes their local community, California, the United States, the seven continents, and the four oceans.
2.
Compare the information that can be derived from a three-dimensional model to the information that can be derived from a picture of the same location.
3.
Construct a simple map, using cardinal directions and map symbols.
4.
Describe how location, weather, and physical environment affect the way people live, including the effects on their food, clothing, shelter, transportation, and recreation.

1.3 Students know and understand the symbols, icons, and traditions of the United States that provide continuity and a sense of community across time.
1.
Recite the Pledge of Allegiance and sing songs that express American ideals (e.g., “My Country ’Tis of Thee”).
2.
Understand the significance of our national holidays and the heroism and achievements
of the people associated with them.
3.
Identify American symbols, landmarks, and essential documents, such as the flag, bald eagle, Statue of Liberty, U.S. Constitution, and Declaration of Independence, and know the people and events associated with them.
1.5 Students describe the human characteristics of familiar places and the varied backgrounds of American citizens and residents in those places.
1.
Recognize the ways in which they are all part of the same community, sharing principles,
goals, and traditions despite their varied ancestry; the forms of diversity in their school and community; and the benefits and challenges of a diverse population.
2.
Understand the ways in which American Indians and immigrants have helped define Californian and American culture.
3.
Compare the beliefs, customs, ceremonies,traditions, and social practices of the varied cultures, drawing from folklore.

1. 6Students understand basic economic concepts and the role of individual choice in a free-market economy.
1.
Understand the concept of exchange and the use of money to purchase goods and services.
2.
Identify the specialized work that people do to manufacture, transport, and market goods and services and the contributions of those who work in the home.

354 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:15:57am

re: #343 Gus 802

If that were true then he would have violated the Constitution by now. That would subject him to impeachment. Nothing of the case has occurred to prove this to be true and the GOP would have jumped at the opportunity by now.

Unless of course you're thinking about some imaginary violation of the Constitution and support a subsequent imaginary impeachment. Let me guess. Birth certificate perhaps?

Since Obama hasn't done much yet, it's a little hard to be in violation of anything. Up to this point it's sort of like his pre-presidency career, just vote "present" and slide through.

355 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:08am

re: #346 Basho

Do you have a link? I want to bookmark it.

Another great bit from another great column:
The world’s largest country is well along the way to forming an intellectual elite on a scale that the world has never seen, and against which nothing in today’s world - surely not the inbred products of the Ivy League puppy mills - can compete. Few of its piano students will earn a living at the keyboard, to be sure, but many of the 36 million will become much better scientists, engineers, physicians, businessmen and military officers.

356 swamprat  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:24am

The public would vote for a dead rat in order to just not have the same morons and hacks running the country. I won't forget what the Democrats did to get back in power, and I won't forgive the Republicans for trying to use the same tactics. A pox on both their houses.

357 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:24am

re: #349 WindUpBird

Apologize for actual real racists, then bitch about the Left playing the race card. How unique and original!

At least you were fully able to discuss the substance of my position. Thank you!

358 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:39am

re: #311 Basho

Even when I was in, 45 years ago; there was a concerted effort by the Army to teach us “survival level”, Mandarin and French. The reason for French in Vietnam was obvious…but Mandarin?
Very interesting.

359 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:49am

re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist

Only 11 more to go!

360 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:16:51am

re: #347 mwalke5

Not true. He would only be subjected to impeachment for crimes and misdemeanors. If he engages in policies that are found to be unconstitutional, those policies will simply be struck down.

Wasn't someone speaking about the need for civics lessons earlier?

After the last administration, I don't know who is looking out for the Constitution.

361 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:17:49am

re: #358 oldegeezr

Even when I was in, 45 years ago; there was a concerted effort by the Army to teach us “survival level”, Mandarin and French. The reason for French in Vietnam was obvious…but Mandarin?
Very interesting.

Lotta Han Chinese lived in Vietnam, many still do, but a good chunk of them left at the first chance.

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:17:54am

Second Grade:

2.3 Students explain governmental institutions and practices in the United States and other countries.
1.
Explain how the United States and other countries make laws, carry out laws, determine
whether laws have been violated, and punish wrongdoers.
2.
Describe the ways in which groups and nations interact with one another to try to resolve problems in such areas as trade, cultural contacts, treaties, diplomacy, and military force.

2.4 Students understand basic economic concepts and their individual roles in the economy and demonstrate basic economic reasoning skills.
1.
Describe food production and consumption long ago and today, including the roles of farmers, processors, distributors, weather, and land and water resources.
2.
Understand the role and interdependence of buyers (consumers) and sellers (producers)
of goods and services.
3.
Understand how limits on resources affect production and consumption (what to produce and what to consume).

2.5 Students understand the importance of individual action and character and explain how heroes from long ago and the recent past have made a difference in others’ lives (e.g., from biographies of Abraham Lincoln, Louis Pasteur, Sitting Bull, George Washington Carver, Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, Golda Meir, Jackie Robinson, Sally Ride).

363 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:17:58am

re: #360 SteveMcG

After the last administration, I don't know who is looking out for the Constitution.

Ron Paul? :)

364 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:18:06am

re: #360 SteveMcG

After the last administration, I don't know who is looking out for the Constitution.

Of come on, can't we get over the "Blame Bush" mantra by now?

365 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:18:25am

re: #145 Sharmuta

Mine would be a restructuring of the collection and spending mechanisms, so that agencies were not forced to spend every dime of their budget (as one example); and instead of auditing the People, the IRS would audit Congress.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Boortz Rider added to spending legislation. The talk show host suggest that every legislator voting for a spending bill sign a statement affirming that the goals of said legislation warranted seizing the necessary funds from the taxpayer, and that the goals were more important than whatever goals the taxpayers had for their money.

366 spoosmith  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:19:20am

re: #253 mwalke5

Solution # 1 to healthcare: Cap non compensatory med mal damages.

The Left's solution? BAN states from capping non compensatory med mal damages.

Malpractice caps? Really? That's your #1 solution? Sorry, but it's very hard to take that kind of opinion seriously.

[Link: www.consumeraffairs.com...]

367 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:19:20am

re: #364 mwalke5

Of come on, can't we get over the "Blame Bush" mantra by now?

Like he never existed. Pooofff..

368 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:19:38am

re: #342 WindUpBird

People don't seem to understand just how much infrastructure spending we've been putting off. Not entitlements, not social programs, the basics. Sewers, bridges, roads, electrical grids...

We're lucky, imo, that we haven't seen more bridges collapses. I have absolutely no problem with the government directing extra money for a "stimulus" to get these jobs done.

369 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:20:07am

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

Who doesn't teach American history and civics?

Charles had a thread about it yesterday.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:20:09am

In twelfth grade a full year of American Democracy and Economics is required.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but civics is being taught. If the results are not to people's liking, we need to dicuss why, not fantasize that classes in cultural relativism and conversational Swahili have taken over the curriculum.

371 sagehen  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:20:42am

re: #277 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Early 90s, and this was supposed to be the intro to computers course, set up, turn on, basic operations. I learned more sitting at home and just playing with the machine over a weekend than I did in a whole semester in that class.

In my day (gawd, how I hate realizing I'm old enough to say that!) computer class meant punchcards, a computer the size of a station wagon, and fierce competition for the best time slots to be able to use the damn thing.

372 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:21:00am

re: #333 WindUpBird

There are not enough updings m/

He'll be hacking soon!

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:21:07am

re: #354 Walter L. Newton

Since Obama hasn't done much yet, it's a little hard to be in violation of anything. Up to this point it's sort of like his pre-presidency career, just vote "present" and slide through.

This old myth again? This is a Hillary Clinton canard.

129 votes out of 4000 were voted "present". Doesn't seem like sliding through to me.

374 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:21:16am

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

In twelfth grade a full year of American Democracy and Economics is required.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but civics is being taught. If the results are not to people's liking, we need to dicuss why, not fantasize that classes in cultural relativism and conversational Swahili have taken over the curriculum.

You're my favorite poster. :)

375 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:04am

Here's the Green Party's Policy on "Non-Violence" from their website:

We declare our commitment to non-violence and strive for a culture of peace and cooperation between states, inside societies and between individuals, as the basis of global security.
We believe that security should not rest mainly on military strength but on cooperation, sound economic and social development, environmental safety, and respect for human rights.
This requires:
* a comprehensive concept of global security, which gives priority to social, economic, ecological, psychological and cultural aspects of conflict, instead of a concept based primarily on military balances of power
* a global security system capable of the prevention, management and resolution of conflicts
* removing the causes of war by understanding and respecting other cultures, eradicating racism, promoting freedom and democracy, and ending global poverty
* pursuing general and complete disarmament including international agreements to ensure a complete and definitive ban of nuclear, biological and chemical arms, anti-personnel mines and depleted uranium weapons
* strengthening the United Nations (UN) as the global organisation of conflict management and peacekeeping
* pursuing a rigorous code of conduct on arms exports to countries where human rights are being violated.
[Link: www.greenparty.ca...]

Get the drift?

376 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:19am

re: #371 sagehen

In my day (gawd, how I hate realizing I'm old enough to say that!) computer class meant punchcards, a computer the size of a station wagon, and fierce competition for the best time slots to be able to use the damn thing.

We had wooden frames with those beads threaded on stiff wire...

377 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:26am

re: #364 mwalke5

If I wanted to blame Bush, 4000 cahracters won't do the job. Yeah, let's forget about all that. It was so long ago, right? It's not like there were any carryovers. Or were you talking about H?

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:31am

re: #335 Sharmuta

The United States?

That's about results, which I admit are quite dismal.

379 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:32am

re: #340 Guanxi88

Pollution and fabulous piano players. Interesting mix of exports.

China's thrift, industry and diligence are qualities born of long experience with hard times. The terrible suffering of the 19th and 20th centuries left every Chinese parent with the conviction that the world shows no mercy to mediocrity. They have less tolerance for fantasy than their Western counterparts. Reality has intruded on their lives for generations to the point that they are ready to meet it head on. Enough of them devote their lives to making their children excel as to produce an army of hothouse wonders so large as to swamp whatever competition the West might send against them. If Westerners think the present recession is unpleasant, they cannot begin to imagine how the recovery will look, for it may occur entirely remote to them, on the other side of the world.

We have adoration of pretty sparkly celebrities.

380 Fishermage  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #3 Sharmuta

Reposting some thoughts:

I think the poll just shows what aspect of conservatism should be pandered to. Folks want a fiscal message, and are telling the pollster they'd vote for anyone promoting it.

It's this aspect of conservatism that put the GOP in power in the mid-90s, and was the aspect of conservatism they kicked to the curb along with Newt Gingrich later. Since then, it's been more social issues, and the best of conservative principles has been undermined.

Yet people still want to work on fixing spending issues, and improving our economy and education so that America's future can be brighter, but very few are discussing these points. Instead, we are discussing one nontroversy after another. It's frustrating, and with that feeling of frustration, we long for a candidate or party that will speak to us. I'm not so sure a Tea Party will work, but maybe a RINO! party would.


Exactly. If the Republican Party wants to have any say in the future, it is time they dump the theocratic message and stick with the economic one.

381 swamprat  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:40am

re: #367 recusancy

Like he never existed. Pooofff..


No one will take your boogeyman away!

382 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:49am

Neither administration has stripped the Constitution. The closest we got to losing constitutional rights was the stupid imminent domain decision.

We still have our basic governmental processes in place and the ability to support and elect the government we desire.

I tire of hearing the hyperbole and find it very hard to take anyone on the left or right seriously who raises the "destroying the Constitution" protest.

383 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:22:50am

re: #366 spoosmith

Way to cite a very recent study. Maybe you should try going to the WSJ?

384 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:23:16am

re: #373 WindUpBird

This old myth again? This is a Hillary Clinton canard.

129 votes out of 4000 were voted "present". Doesn't seem like sliding through to me.

Your right...

385 ghazidor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:23:47am

re: #328 Walter L. Newton

You don't think this was time to correspond with Copenhagen, do you?

Naw, don't be silly. That sounds like some kind of conspiracy theory or something.

///

386 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:23:59am

re: #337 recusancy

Ha! He must have been a bad professor then when he was teaching constitutional law at one of the best universities in the world.

FTFY

387 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:24:06am

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

In twelfth grade a full year of American Democracy and Economics is required.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but civics is being taught. If the results are not to people's liking, we need to dicuss why, not fantasize that classes in cultural relativism and conversational Swahili have taken over the curriculum.

I remember taking a fairly demanding civics class in HS (which was in the 1990s) and acing it because I actually liked reading the newspaper. Also, I hooked my teacher up with a copy of Operation Mindcrime. :D

388 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:24:31am

Relevant quote from the WSJ cite above...

Never mind that reducing medical lawsuits is a rare reform provision that really would reduce health-care costs. The Congressional Budget Office estimates the savings at $54 billion over a decade. Consulting firm Tillinghast Towers-Perrin has suggested the direct cost of medical tort litigation is more like $30 billion annually. PriceWaterhouseCoopers estimates that last year $240 billion in health expenditures were the result of doctors ordering unnecessary procedures to protect against the risk of lawsuits.

389 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:25:13am

re: #368 Sharmuta

We're lucky, imo, that we haven't seen more bridges collapses. I have absolutely no problem with the government directing extra money for a "stimulus" to get these jobs done.

The only sticky part being that it's tough to watch the states/counties who have been the least responsible get the most grants. That stings a little. In general, though, i agree.

390 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:25:28am

re: #385 ausador

Naw, don't be silly. That sounds like some kind of conspiracy theory or something.

///

Probably those Russians did it.

391 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:25:34am

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

Your right...

The Clinton/Obama primary was like the super bowl to me. I don't really watch sports, I have politics for that! :D

392 sagehen  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:26:06am

re: #272 right_wing2

Because, IMHO, a group of 3 year olds pulling slips of paper out of a hat would make better decisions than this fool? Ok, so I'm not kissing the Bamster's backside. Oh frickin' well.

The only good liberal politician is an unemployed one.

Let's make sure Obama's unemployed in 2012. Of course, then he'll just go back to poisoning the minds of college kids or some BS like that.


The Bill of Rights was liberal when written, and it's still liberal today.

Freeing the slaves was a very liberal idea; conservatives were up in arms (literally) about such ridiculousness.

Letting women vote.

Creating National Parks.

Outlawing child labor.

Cleanliness standards at meat packing plants.

Liberals just have one bad idea after another, don't they?

//

393 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:26:30am

re: #388 mwalke5

Then why have health care costs-- and malpractice insurance-- not fallen in areas where tort reform has already occurred, like Texas?

394 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:26:52am

re: #375 Spare O'Lake

Here's the Green Party's Policy on "Non-Violence" from their website:
[...]
Get the drift?

They left out the part about giving us all a pony for our birthdays. Three words for their disarmament scheme: Kellogg-Briand Pact.

395 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:27:09am

re: #382 DaddyG

Neither administration has stripped the Constitution. The closest we got to losing constitutional rights was the stupid imminent domain decision.

We still have our basic governmental processes in place and the ability to support and elect the government we desire.

I tire of hearing the hyperbole and find it very hard to take anyone on the left or right seriously who raises the "destroying the Constitution" protest.

Yep. As someone astutely mentioned earlier, we have a SCOTUS whose main job is to keep an eye on the Constitution, at least as far as i can remember...

396 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:28:09am

re: #368 Sharmuta

We're lucky, imo, that we haven't seen more bridges collapses. I have absolutely no problem with the government directing extra money for a "stimulus" to get these jobs done.

In Portland, we're DAMNED lucky, the Sellwood bridge is starting to become the equivalent of that rope bridge in Temple of Doom.

397 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #393 Obdicut

Then why have health care costs-- and malpractice insurance-- not fallen in areas where tort reform has already occurred, like Texas?

While that is a complicated issue micro/macro economic issue, the simple fact is that med mal suits in TX have dropped precipitously.

398 ED 209  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:29:24am

re: #83 thedopefishlives

More educated how? Ordinary, everyday Americans have an abysmal understanding of basic government operational principles, very little grasp of important historical context, and an ever-increasing lack of fundamental math, science, and grammar instruction.


And yet there is the Flynn effect-

The Flynn effect is the rise of the average intelligence quotient (IQ) test scores over generations (IQ gains over time). The effect has also been reported for other cognitions such as semantic and episodic memory. The effect occurs in most parts of the world although at greatly varying rates.
399 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:29:25am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

That's about results, which I admit are quite dismal.

Yes- and I agree with what you said above, that we are teaching civics, but something isn't sticking, because we see the results. Most folks can't pass a basic civics of American history test, and most don't vote. I think they're related.

400 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:29:45am

re: #272 right_wing2

Because, IMHO, a group of 3 year olds pulling slips of paper out of a hat would make better decisions than this fool? Ok, so I'm not kissing the Bamster's backside. Oh frickin' well.

The only good liberal politician is an unemployed one.

Let's make sure Obama's unemployed in 2012. Of course, then he'll just go back to poisoning the minds of college kids or some BS like that.

GAZE! (warning, horrifying)

401 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:30:04am

re: #391 WindUpBird

The Clinton/Obama primary was like the super bowl to me. I don't really watch sports, I have politics for that! :D

So you have to rub it in?

402 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:30:24am

re: #396 WindUpBird

In Portland, we're DAMNED lucky, the Sellwood bridge is starting to become the equivalent of that rope bridge in Temple of Doom.

Kali Ma Shakti de!

403 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:30:49am

re: #375 Spare O'Lake

Here's the Green Party's Policy on "Non-Violence" from their website:


Get the drift?

Great plan, as long as everyone skips merrily down the road, hand in hand, singing a happy song, our security is completely assured.

404 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #397 mwalke5

While that is a complicated issue micro/macro economic issue, the simple fact is that med mal suits in TX have dropped precipitously.

Doesn't this just make malpractice reform the poster child for "ideas which sound good on paper, but won't actually do anything to reduce health care costs"?

405 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:31:08am

re: #401 Walter L. Newton

So you have to rub it in?

I'm not rubbing it in, it's actually an admission that I spent waaay too much of my life watching campaign crap in 2008 when I should have been working or drinking or doing something interesting.

406 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:32:18am

re: #402 MrSilverDragon

Kali Ma Shakti de!

Doctor Jones! Doctor Jones!

407 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:32:30am

re: #405 WindUpBird

I'm not rubbing it in, it's actually an admission that I spent waaay too much of my life watching campaign crap in 2008 when I should have been working or drinking or doing something interesting.

Sure.

408 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:32:31am

re: #388 mwalke5

Relevant quote from a doctor (my wife) "The defensive medicine I practice has nothing to do with malpractice." She has never been sued. But if she doesn't send enough patients to the wound center, if she doesn't send enough patients to the open MRI, those directors will call their friends in the medical staff office and get her spot on staff replaced by someone who will send them patients. There's no way in hell she needs to send an ankle sprain to the MRI. It's not like these people are football plyers.

409 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:33:04am

re: #403 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Great plan, as long as everyone skips merrily down the road, hand in hand, singing a happy song, our security is completely assured.

You're skipping in my sunshine, asshole.

*shove*

410 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:06am

BBL folks. Nobody bring up any good arguments while I'm gone, thank you.//

411 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:34am

re: #409 MandyManners

You're skipping in my sunshine, asshole.

*shove*

And you're Falala-ing is out of tune

*kick to the shins*

412 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:49am

re: #404 ignoranceisfatal

Doesn't this just make malpractice reform the poster child for "ideas which sound good on paper, but won't actually do anything to reduce health care costs"?

Won't do much, you mean. But health care availability is just as good of a reason to pass some sort of reform. Try finding an obgyn in some parts of the country. Half of the problem is that doctors spend too much time covering for themselves (i.e. it's too hard to get a bad doctor the hell out of medicine altogether) and the other half of the problem is that sometimes bad things just happen and it shouldn't equal a payout.

413 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:56am

re: #407 Walter L. Newton

Sure.

:/

I'm still learning the vibe of this place, it's a lot different from Livejournal. I honestly was not screwing with you.

414 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #399 Sharmuta

Yes- and I agree with what you said above, that we are teaching civics, but something isn't sticking, because we see the results. Most folks can't pass a basic civics of American history test, and most don't vote. I think they're related.

One of the isues is that standards and testing just insure that some basic cramming is going on prior to standardized test periods and graduation tests. There is no easy solution but atracting people from a variety of fields with a passion for educating and making it worth their while to have a career would help. (Agreeing with SFZionists point about educators)

415 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:34:59am

re: #86 Charles

Elizabeth May comes with quite a bit of moonbat baggage.
For example, for her Green Party of Canada foreign policy, see my #375.

416 gamark  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #342 WindUpBird

People don't seem to understand just how much infrastructure spending we've been putting off. Not entitlements, not social programs, the basics. Sewers, bridges, roads, electrical grids...

Sewers, bridges, et. al. don't vote.

417 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:35:53am

re: #406 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Doctor Jones! Doctor Jones!

*lowering spikes*

WE.

ARE GOING.

TO DIE!

:(

418 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:36:13am

re: #416 gamark

Sewers, bridges, et. al. don't vote.

That's what golems are for!

419 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:36:33am

re: #416 gamark

Sewers, bridges, et. al. don't vote.

Well, that depends where you live... Chicago, for instance...

/do I need to?

420 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:36:58am

re: #411 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And you're Falala-ing is out of tune

*kick to the shins*

Oh, yeah? YOUR MOMMA' DRESSES YOU FUNNY!

*atomic wedgie*

421 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:37:05am

re: #412 Aceofwhat?

Hm, I hadn't considered that angle before. Interesting point.

422 doubter4444  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #240 Obdicut

Downdinged for being against government funding science research. We need basic science research, and corporations will not fund it.

It's also easy to talk about going after waste and fraud without in any way talking about HOW to identify waste and fraud.

Me too.
The grubbiness of only funding research that pays off is so depressingly short sighted, and it exemplifies a certain type of winger: it's always about business.
And it just can't be.
I'm well aware that you got to have revenue to support spending. But R&D for ideas that may never turn a profit or are so arcane that few notice is to me, the hallmark of a great civilization.
Fundamental understanding of the world is hugely important, and can lead to great things, even great revenue, so doing so means funding without worrying about monetary productivity. Intellectual growth and knowledge are essential.

423 swamprat  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:37:33am

re: #392 sagehen

Liberalism is like sugar. A good thing, but too much is bad for you.
British dentistry.
American "education".
Canadian medicine.
Russian anything.
Chinese most things.
Denmark, Norway and Sweden, seem to have the right balance. France does it's health-care well, I hear. American roads show what can be done.
Cuban medicine- not so good. (more lies from Moore.)

We need to be careful. Liberalism is often fascism disguised as good intentions, but capitalism can harbor the same tendencies. Freedom isn't easy

424 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:37:39am

re: #391 WindUpBird

The Clinton/Obama primary was like the super bowl to me. I don't really watch sports, I have politics for that! :D

This last weekend I spoke to an old friend who just returned from another rotation in Afghanistan and your sports comparison reminds me of a conversation we had.

He likened the tribalism among Afghanis and their continued efforts to "shoot the guys over in the next valley" to the NFL.

"And when winter comes, the season is over."

This was all in the context of "what can we expect from Afghanistan". His opinion is that we won't be seeing any sort of stabilization like that in Iraq. No common memory of a middle class or of any modern infrastructure. Instead, for most Afghanis the world is the size of a valley and what is in the next valley must be dealt with. Islam doesn't really play a part, and the armed guys flying in from around the world to report for either jihad or liberation can be put into service to protect the valley from the outsiders.

And there are a hell of a lot of valleys.

425 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:38:27am

re: #408 SteveMcG

True, the real cost in defensive medicine deals primarily with high risk low probability ailments (i.e. cancer).

426 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:39:07am

re: #424 karmic_inquisitor

I'm pretty sure your friend is right, and that sucks. :P

427 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:39:08am

re: #420 MandyManners

Oh, yeah? YOUR MOMMA' DRESSES YOU FUNNY!

*atomic wedgie*

THAT DOES IT!

*head lock and noogies*

428 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:40:08am

re: #392 sagehen

The Bill of Rights was liberal when written, and it's still liberal today.

Freeing the slaves was a very liberal idea; conservatives were up in arms (literally) about such ridiculousness.

Letting women vote.

Creating National Parks.

Outlawing child labor.

Cleanliness standards at meat packing plants.

Liberals just have one bad idea after another, don't they?

//

Teddy Roosevelt - pinko.

429 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:40:19am

re: #397 mwalke5

While that is a complicated issue micro/macro economic issue, the simple fact is that med mal suits in TX have dropped precipitously.

Right. So why haven't the health care costs and the health insurance costs dropped?

This is exactly what I'm talking about: The promise of the tort reform laws were that they'd reduce those costs. They have totally failed to do so. So, why the hell are you still trumpeting them as though they would?

430 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:40:54am

re: #428 karmic_inquisitor

Teddy Roosevelt - pinko.

Damn Reddy Roosevelt.

//

431 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:41:34am

re: #417 WindUpBird

*lowering spikes*

WE.

ARE GOING.

TO DIE!

:(

PREPARE TO MEET KALI!

in bed.

432 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:41:44am

re: #427 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

THAT DOES IT!

*head lock and noogies*

Neener! Neener!


Youtube Video
433 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:41:45am

re: #414 DaddyG

One of the isues is that standards and testing just insure that some basic cramming is going on prior to standardized test periods and graduation tests. There is no easy solution but atracting people from a variety of fields with a passion for educating and making it worth their while to have a career would help. (Agreeing with SFZionists point about educators)

My Grandfather dedicated his life to teaching, and I fully know the importance of good teachers. I don't think the problem is teachers. I think we should be having discussions on how best to deal with the issues in our education system, because it's not that we don't have money in this country, and it's not that we have bad teachers as a rule.

434 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:42:18am

re: #347 mwalke5

Not true. He would only be subjected to impeachment for crimes and misdemeanors. If he engages in policies that are found to be unconstitutional, those policies will simply be struck down.

Wasn't someone speaking about the need for civics lessons earlier?

Here you go:

In our most recent experience with presidential impeachment -- Watergate in 1974 -- the House Judiciary Committee strongly argued that the case for impeachment need not be limited to actual violations of criminal law. In its report, Constitutional Grounds for Presidential Impeachment, the Committee argued the definition should go beyond actual breach of law, citing Blackstone's phrase, "an injury to the state or system of government," Justice Joseph Story's phrase, "offenses of a political character," and Edmund Burke's statement at an impeachment trial that the official on trial should be judged "not upon the niceties of a narrow jurisprudence, but upon the enlarged and solid principles of morality." The Committee further stated that historically, Congress had issued Articles of Impeachment in three broad categories: (1) exceeding the constitutional bounds of the powers of the office; (2) behaving in a manner grossly incompatible with the proper function and purpose of the office; and (3) employing the power of the office for an improper purpose or for personal gain.

[Link: www.c-span.org...]

[Link: stuff.mit.edu...]

435 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:42:22am

re: #431 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

PREPARE TO MEET KALI!

in bed.

I dated a girl like that.

Fun, but the break-up was Hell.

436 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:44:38am

re: #429 Obdicut
Like I said before, whether or not "actual health care costs" have gone down depends on measuring "health care costs" and that question is incredibly complex from an economic point of view: are insurance premiums an appropriate yardstick to measure success of tort reform? I don't have the expertise to answer this question as it seems very complex. My gut reaction is that as there are numerous moving pieces involved in health insurance premium calculation, there might not be a 1:1 ratio for decrease in med mal and decrease in health insurance costs. This seems self evident but it does NOT automatically follow that capping med mal is a fruitless exercise (could change behavior of doctor/patients over time, etc.).

437 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:45:34am

re: #432 MandyManners

Neener! Neener!

[Video]

Now you've done it. You've been asking for this

Youtube Video
438 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:46:41am

re: #433 Sharmuta

My Grandfather dedicated his life to teaching, and I fully know the importance of good teachers. I don't think the problem is teachers. I think we should be having discussions on how best to deal with the issues in our education system, because it's not that we don't have money in this country, and it's not that we have bad teachers as a rule.


Trends in education seem to swing like a pendulum. Getting people out of camps and getting them to discuss the right balance of accountability and creativity instead of either or discussions would help. I doubt there is a teacher in the world that wants more government influence in their classroom.

439 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:46:46am

re: #434 Gus 802

Yes, exceeding the CON powers of office for impeachment occurred once and is HIGHLY controversial - so controversial that it will never occur again (not even in the Constitution as an impeachable offense). Read the history books on Andrew Johnson if you don't believe me.

440 Bob Dillon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #263 MandyManners

I'm not talking about writing code. I'm talking about using a computer, knowing what it can do and how it can do it.

You remind me of my older sister, Mandy.
Thirsty and excited about computers - she would drive me nuts with her questions. (I was trained by IBM).

When I would go on sports car rallies back in the 50s we would use Curta Calculators.
[Link: www.vcalc.net...]
Now some took them apart to find out how they did what they did. Not a wise move as they couldn't be reassembled without factory jigs, etc.

The "how" was not the issue - that it gave us the time and distance calculations we needed to effectively compete was all I wanted.

A better question for you is what do you want to accomplish as an outcome with the computer.

A computer is limited only by the software that it runs. (I am discounting speed issues here). We put men on the moon with less computer power found in a hand held calculator nowadays. We can simulate an atomic detonation or draft an email message. Do you really want to know the how?

Better to pick a specific task you want to accomplish. Then the proven software that will achieve it. And finally the specific computer configuration that will run it.

Note that the actual hardware to run it on is the last choice. It might be a laptop or a mainframe depending on your desired outcome.

If you really want to know how computers do what they do start by learning how they count and the different counting systems they use. Binary, octal, hexadecimal, etc. Then get into boolean logic circuits, and, or, not, etc. ... there is much more but I doubt you really want to go there.

BTW - I bought my sister an iBook and sent her to the Apple store to take their free classes on how to utilize the software packages. Not to learn about how computers work. ;-)

441 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:47:35am

More pinko tendencies from Teddy Roosevelt.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]


He learned to value working class people, and he never forgot them. From the time he took office in 1901 to the time he left it in 1909, the cowboy president did much to help working Americans. He passed laws to ensure the safety of food and drugs sold in the American marketplace. He placed millions of acres of land under federal protection, preserving America's natural resources. He regulated interstate commerce and helped laborers to get a fair shake at the negotiating table.

and then there is ...

Plutocrats deplored Roosevelt. Yet TR adamantly defended the right of big business to exist. Trying to destroy the trusts, Roosevelt wrote in his Autobiography, "was a hopeless effort... those who went into it, although they regarded themselves as radical progressives, really represented a sincere form of rural Toryism." To TR, Progressivism meant a square deal for the American people and American business, a society where businesses profited by fair competition -- but not at the expense of the average American.

People wonder what a McCain presidency might have looked like.

442 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:48:16am

re: #326 right_wing2

I realize there will always be libs. I just don't want 'em in power.

And I fully believe that Obama has no clue what the Constitution says, as evidenced from the people & policies he supports.

I full believe that you have no clue what you are talking about as evidenced from your ranting ODS policies and viewpoints you support.

443 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:48:37am

re: #436 mwalke5

Why are you pretending I'm only talking about insurance premiums? I'm also talking about health care costs in the area.

If it doesn't bring down health care costs, and it doesn't bring down insurance premiums, what the hell is the point of tort reform?

This is what I'm talking about: You ideologically are in favor of tort reform. You don't support it from a pragmatic point of view.

Please read this article:

www.newyorker.com...]>Analysis of health care costs in two areas of Texas/a>

444 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:49:31am

Crazy title at Hot Air:

EPA declares air a danger to human health

Ed goes on to call the 6 greenhouse gasses "so called greenhouse gases" which are:

carbon dioxide (CO2)
methane (CH4)
nitrous oxide (N2O)
hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs)
perfluorocarbons (PFCs)
sulfur hexafluoride (SF6)

445 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:50:22am

re: #437 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now you've done it. You've been asking for this

[Video]

*whimper*

446 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:50:36am

re: #425 mwalke5

You can't even quantify the costs of defensive medicine. Right now, malpractice litigation is the only way to make providrs accountable. Malpractice reform will only make malpractice affordable. That would hurt the quality of healthcare. The problem with ob-gyn distribution is more a matter of reimbursement tnhan costs. The places with poor distribution are often the places where reimbusement is weakest, whether by a small caseload in rural areas or poor reimbursements like inner cities.

447 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #439 mwalke5

Yes, exceeding the CON powers of office for impeachment occurred once and is HIGHLY controversial - so controversial that it will never occur again (not even in the Constitution as an impeachable offense). Read the history books on Andrew Johnson if you don't believe me.

Anyway. Right_Wing2 was alluding to some flighty violation of the Constitution by the Obama administration. There is none.

448 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:51:08am

Concerning History and Civics education- I also think Hollywood is dropping the ball a bit on this issue in that there are many figures from the Revolution that would make highly interesting films. They could help promote an interest in some of these issues if they'd just look in the right spots.

449 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:51:28am

re: #444 Gus 802

Crazy title at Hot Air:

Ed goes on to call the 6 greenhouse gasses "so called greenhouse gases" which are:

Isn't there a bit of irony here considering the name of that blog?

450 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:51:37am

re: #443 Obdicut

Sorry, I read the article but I don't necessarily trust the New Yorker to be an objective source for an economic study of tort reform. And no, I do have some non-ideological bases for this (probably biased since I have 5 doctors in my immediate family).

451 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:51:46am

re: #361 Guanxi88

“The Nung are a Vietnamese minority group of ethnic Chinese descent, though there has been some debate among anthropologists as to their proper identification and classification….”

These guys were brave, ferocious and loyal fighters!

We patrolled almost exclusively with Montagnard tribesmen; they were significantly shorter in stature than Americans. We hired the Nungs as bodyguards and decoys when on long range patrols. They were often near or over six feet tall and had much lighter skin than the indigenous Montagnards that spent so much of their daily life out in the sun in agricultural pursuits.

Usually there were only two Americans [often 6 foot or taller] on our patrols that ranged from 10 or 12 men on recon or more than 200 on combat patrols. By adding a couple of tall rangy light skinned Nungs, increased our number to four, instead of two American devils.

Also the odds…!

452 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:51:58am

re: #447 Gus 802

Anyway. Right_Wing2 was alluding to some flighty violation of the Constitution by the Obama administration. There is none.

I'm so tired of paranoid bumpersticker fantasies of impeaching the president. I was tired of them during Bush, and I'm still just so very tired.

453 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:53:06am

re: #449 darthstar

Isn't there a bit of irony here considering the name of that blog?

True. This is pretty funny as well:

This really is the worst of all outcomes. The EPA process can be restrained by Congress, but it will take positive action for that to happen — and in most cases, would take the assent of Barack Obama. About the only way Congress could stop the EPA’s effort to seize control of production without Obama would be to defund the agency, or at least its regulatory efforts. That certainly won’t happen with the current Congress.

Sieze control of production? Hmm, sounds a bit paranoid.

454 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:53:22am

re: #447 Gus 802

Every President has had some bill they;ve signed into law or some policy they embarked on ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. I don't doubt that it will happen sometime during Obama's tenure as well. But an impeachable offense? Not likely.

455 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:54:36am

re: #450 mwalke5

You read an eight page article in less than ten minutes, an article written by one of the top surgeons in the US, and you dismiss it because it's in the New Yorker.

Keep it up, you're doing great.

456 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:55:16am

re: #440 Bobibutu

I think she means the basic hows that all computer literate people pick up, not the "how dual core processors use threading" and "how a graphics accelerator Z-buffers" sort of how. ;-)

457 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:55:17am

re: #155 mwalke5

Exactly the type of sweeping generalization I mentioned earlier.

If you have been paying attention to Charles' coverage of the Tea Partiers, you'd see that the "movement" is pretty much rotten to the core from the neck up...sure there are some fiscal conservatives that have latched on, but there's a whole lot of socons and assorted kooks in the ranks (and especially at the top).

458 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:55:43am

re: #441 karmic_inquisitor

More pinko tendencies from Teddy Roosevelt.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

People wonder what a McCain presidency might have looked like.

McCain only liked him because of the NAVY angle. If you think he'd be a steward of the environment as a Republican president then you're nuts.

Also from the article:

Mr. McCain, who with his wife, Cindy, has an adopted daughter, said flatly that he opposed allowing gay couples to adopt. “I think that we’ve proven that both parents are important in the success of a family so, no, I don’t believe in gay adoption,” he said.

But he declined to take a specific position when asked whether only evolution should be taught in public schools. “It’s up to the school boards,” he said. “That’s why we have local control over education.” Mr. McCain has said he believes in evolution.

459 subsailor68  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:56:09am

re: #448 Sharmuta

Concerning History and Civics education- I also think Hollywood is dropping the ball a bit on this issue in that there are many figures from the Revolution that would make highly interesting films. They could help promote an interest in some of these issues if they'd just look in the right spots.

Hi Sharm. Interesting point - and the wonderful HBO series "John Adams" backs ya up. Here's an interesting take on Hollywood - don't really know what I think of the thesis - and libertarianism:

Hollywood and Libertarianism

460 freetoken  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:56:21am

re: #453 Gus 802

When the Supreme Court made their ruling it became pretty clear that today's announcement was the default way of tackling this issue, lacking any further action by Congress. Congress has failed to pass any legislation to directly address greenhouse gases, and the current one will die in the Senate.

461 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:18am

re: #271 recusancy

I assume most here have some form of adulation (worship) for Reagan... Here is some interesting info showing how eerily similar Obama is to him in popularity and circumstances.

Interesting poll. I can understand the popularity. Indeed, we have many Reagan lovers here, but I would not be one!

As long as the war(s) rages on, I don't see how any President could be fiscally conservative. Along with the tanking economy.

462 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:21am
Why are you pretending I'm only talking about insurance premiums? I'm also talking about health care costs in the area.

If it doesn't bring down health care costs, and it doesn't bring down insurance premiums, what the hell is the point of tort reform?

This is what I'm talking about: You ideologically are in favor of tort reform. You don't support it from a pragmatic point of view.

Please read this article:

Analysis of health care costs in two areas of Texas/a>


Like i said above. Physician availability is a better reason to pass tort reform than cost reduction. Who cares how expensive your obgyn is if you have to drive 2 hours to see them?

When HR magazine notices, you know it's not a random event. HR Magazine isn't exactly on the cutting edge.

[Link: findarticles.com...]

463 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:59:21am

re: #372 MandyManners

He'll be hacking soon!

The next John Carmack!

464 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #433 Sharmuta

My Grandfather dedicated his life to teaching, and I fully know the importance of good teachers. I don't think the problem is teachers. I think we should be having discussions on how best to deal with the issues in our education system, because it's not that we don't have money in this country, and it's not that we have bad teachers as a rule.

Respect to Grandpa. The educational debate can be interesting and generate quite a few perspectives. The current system seems to focus on training citizens and consumers, which has merit.

My dream system would include introduction to career paths along with aptitude tests followed by a program of independent study, chosen by the parents/child. Core skills would have some overlap but would be in support of said educational/career path.

Basically the idea is to start specializing a lot earlier while changing the model from a class room "one right answer" model to one that encourages students to be inquisitive and explore the subjects and paths which most interest them and best match their aptitude.

Like I said, it's just a dream. :-)

465 Bob Dillon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:01:18pm

re: #456 WindUpBird

I think she means the basic hows that all computer literate people pick up, not the "how dual core processors use threading" and "how a graphics accelerator Z-buffers" sort of how. ;-)

My older sister would love to have dinner with you. Probably many. She still hasn't given up.

There are computer clubs all over the place - take the Kid and join one, Mandy.

466 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:02:09pm

re: #462 Aceofwhat?

And then again: Is there appreciabile difference in physician availability in areas-- like Texas-- that have already passed tort reform?

Theory is great. We're beyond that now-- states have actually passed tort reform bills.

Is there any proof at all that it's working?

467 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:03:16pm

re: #466 Obdicut

And then again: Is there appreciabile difference in physician availability in areas-- like Texas-- that have already passed tort reform?

Theory is great. We're beyond that now-- states have actually passed tort reform bills.

Is there any proof at all that it's working?

Oh, it's probably working for SOMEONE. ;-) Just not, you know, the government or the average person with non-Cadillac insurance.

468 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:04:50pm

re: #357 mwalke5

At least you were fully able to discuss the substance of my position. Thank you!

Don't thank me, I get my thanks from helping others.

469 gtluke  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:06:14pm

re: #119 Obdicut

Fox Business News Charles Paine once came. He's not a mouthpiece at all.

470 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:06:58pm

re: #455 Obdicut
Your right, I do not trust what a "top surgeon" has to say about tort reform in the New Yorker. I prefer to read studies from the Congressional Budget Office, here.

471 gtluke  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:06pm

re: #118 SteveMcG

One thing you're missing is that people pine for a "lost" America that didn't actually exist. I appreciate that people romanticize their memories, but the biggest problem with the teabaggers is that there is nothing more concrete than their premise. Sure, we have to cut the deficit. How? What do you cut and also, you will inevitably have to raise taxes. Keep in mind that the cuts you make at the federal level often have to be made up at the state or local level. So don't expect everybody to take your sound bytes seriously.

As a city contractor I can honestly say there are a lot LOT of cuts that can be made without the population even noticing. I can imagine the amount of this going on at the Federal level.

472 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:45pm

re: #469 gtluke

Fox Business News Charles Paine once came. He's not a mouthpiece at all.

Nobody else? You sure? Not Steve Malzberg, for example?

473 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:09:29pm

re: #464 Locker

Respect to Grandpa. The educational debate can be interesting and generate quite a few perspectives. The current system seems to focus on training citizens and consumers, which has merit.

My dream system would include introduction to career paths along with aptitude tests followed by a program of independent study, chosen by the parents/child. Core skills would have some overlap but would be in support of said educational/career path.

Basically the idea is to start specializing a lot earlier while changing the model from a class room "one right answer" model to one that encourages students to be inquisitive and explore the subjects and paths which most interest them and best match their aptitude.

Like I said, it's just a dream. :-)

Do you have any children?
In the 9th grade my daughter took an ACT test that included questions about post-high school plans and goals - and one of the "results" of the test was an entire package of information about her strengths, weaknesses, and career areas suggested to her for exploration based on scores, plus information on areas where she needed to improve (public speaking was her improvement area). She has used that ever since to plan coursework.

474 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:10:43pm

re: #470 mwalke5

Is there a reason you put 'top surgeon' in quotes?

Can you admit you did not, in fact, read the article and aim at a little honesty?

Finally: can you show me where tort reform, which has already passed in Texas and is not theoretical, has reduced costs in any way?

475 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:11:03pm

re: #471 gtluke

As a city contractor I can honestly say there are a lot LOT of cuts that can be made without the population even noticing. I can imagine the amount of this going on at the Federal level.

I make my living helping state agencies identify efficiencies and improvements... I would not even consider trying that with the Feds (or some states) given their budgeting process and political environment.

476 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:12:35pm

re: #471 gtluke

As a city contractor I can honestly say there are a lot LOT of cuts that can be made without the population even noticing. I can imagine the amount of this going on at the Federal level.

Everyone says that about every job they've ever had, private or public. I have never had a job where I couldn't point out waste.

477 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:49pm

re: #474 Obdicut

Reduced med mal cases = reduced insurer expenditures for liability = reduced insurance premiums for TX doctors = lower cost of procedures --> leads to lower health insurance premiums over time.

478 Lanzman  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:01pm

Take the nuttiness factor out of it and there's nothing inherently wrong with a new political party forming and running candidates for election. The two major parties we have now are not the same two we've always had, for example. The teabaggers will either gain traction with the populace or they won't, but it's not up to a self-appointed elite - from either side of the aisle - to say they can't present themselves in the marketplace of ideas. Indeed, just the opposite must be the case, because even if they're the looniest bunch of loons who ever looned a loon, you won't know that if they aren't allowed to present themselves. Ideas must be exposed in order to be weighed.
As for cutting the debt/deficit, that's not hard at all if we had the political will to do it. Just simplify the tax code and hold expenditures flat. The economy will grow us out of the problem.

479 borgcube  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:17pm

re: #475 DaddyG

I make my living helping state agencies identify efficiencies and improvements... I would not even consider trying that with the Feds (or some states) given their budgeting process and political environment.

No offense, but that has to be the easiest job on the planet, as far as identifying those areas. You must have a supercomputer at the ready just to track and log all of them.

Getting them to actually act on your recommendations is where you earn your money.

480 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:51pm

re: #473 reine.de.tout

Do you have any children?
In the 9th grade my daughter took an ACT test that included questions about post-high school plans and goals - and one of the "results" of the test was an entire package of information about her strengths, weaknesses, and career areas suggested to her for exploration based on scores, plus information on areas where she needed to improve (public speaking was her improvement area). She has used that ever since to plan coursework.

Yes, my 18 year old just started College this year. I'm speaking about something a lot earlier in the educational time line and a lot more involved than just ACT test results or a once a year visit to a school counselor.

Basically the entire educational effort being based on this kind of student information. Regular guidance and counseling, immediate help and adjustments for those having trouble, etc. That along with an independent study model vs a traditional classroom model would represent what I'm thinking about.

Lunch time. Peace!

481 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:16:01pm

re: #477 mwalke5

So show me the proof. Why can't you?

It passed in 2003, by the way.

Are you going to admit you didn't read the article, by the way?

482 borgcube  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:20:59pm

re: #478 Lanzman

Take the nuttiness factor out of it and there's nothing inherently wrong with a new political party forming and running candidates for election. The two major parties we have now are not the same two we've always had, for example. The teabaggers will either gain traction with the populace or they won't, but it's not up to a self-appointed elite - from either side of the aisle - to say they can't present themselves in the marketplace of ideas. Indeed, just the opposite must be the case, because even if they're the looniest bunch of loons who ever looned a loon, you won't know that if they aren't allowed to present themselves. Ideas must be exposed in order to be weighed.
As for cutting the debt/deficit, that's not hard at all if we had the political will to do it. Just simplify the tax code and hold expenditures flat. The economy will grow us out of the problem.

Not sure about the teabaggers, but when taking even a quick look at Capitol Hill, I can't see how anyone looks at that nuthouse as anything but sheer looniness as well.

483 Jaerik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:26:49pm

I'd be all for the tea-party fiscal conservative movement. The problem is, I haven't been able to find a single organization or group associated with the movement that isn't also socially conservative. And as a libertarian, I'm stuck weighing the guaranteed negative from voting for social conservatives versus the potential positive of voting for fiscal conservatives.

I'm only 29, meaning the only supposedly "fiscally conservative" folks I've ever had a chance to actually vote for have screwed me over so badly, I'm extremely skeptical it'll be any different this time around. This means for now, social issues win out, pretty much disqualifying my vote from going towards either the Republicans or the Tea Party wackos.

484 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:33:04pm

re: #483 Jaerik

Welcome, hatchling.

485 Jaerik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:40:27pm

re: #484 wrenchwench

Welcome, hatchling.

*gasp*

Are you my mommy?

(And thanks, happy to be here and grateful for the registration opportunity. Only stumbled on LGF relatively recently, but it strikes me as a rare bastion of sanity these days.)

486 mwalke5  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:42:02pm

re: #481 Obdicut

I already showed you the proof in the CBO estimate (I'm assuming the CBO did due diligence and made their estimate based on info from states that have already passed tort reform).

487 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:45:46pm

re: #486 mwalke5

Why are you assuming that? Why are you referencing an estimate when I'm asking for proof?

Given that the CBO estimate mainly talks about government reducing spending on medicare/medicaid, I'm unsure how you think it supports your argument strongly.

Can you admit yet that you didn't read the article, or will you keep pretending that you did?

488 gtluke  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:53:16pm

re: #472 Obdicut

Nobody else? You sure? Not Steve Malzberg, for example?

I don't even know who that is. I googled his name and don't recognize him, maybe he was at one or more of them.

489 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:53:16pm

re: #326 right_wing2

I realize there will always be libs. I just don't want 'em in power.

And I fully believe that Obama has no clue what the Constitution says, as evidenced from the people & policies he supports.

We just finished having the conservatives in power and maybe you like where we ended up, but I sure didn't. IMO it was a disaster.

But mostly I am curious about what constitutional policies you think that the president doesn't understand. And what unconstitutional policies he supports. Honestly, I don't understand what you are talking about.

490 gtluke  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:57:16pm

re: #476 WindUpBird

Everyone says that about every job they've ever had, private or public. I have never had a job where I couldn't point out waste.

All of my jobs I've seen waste. But the amount of waste I've seen while working with the NYC DEP is absolutely staggering. Millions upon millions literally and figuratively flushed down the toilet.

491 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:00:06pm

re: #488 gtluke

I don't even know who that is. I googled his name and don't recognize him, maybe he was at one or more of them.

He was. And he's a radio host who regularly guest-hosts Fox News programs.

Hey, be happy, though, you guys make The Daily Show:
Mocking you, of course.

492 Diane  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:00:11pm

While the wackos have taken over on both sides, where do moderates turn? Maybe there is a crisis in leadership somewhere (and if so, why?). That has been on my mind for a little while. Just read Uncertain Trumpet by Charles Krauthammer. It is good.

493 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:32pm

re: #382 DaddyG

Thank you! I completely agree and very often think that the people that are so damn worried about the constitution probably don't know much about it.

494 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:26:49pm

re: #481 Obdicut

So show me the proof. Why can't you?

It passed in 2003, by the way.

Are you going to admit you didn't read the article, by the way?

I wish we could get everyone to read the article. I read it awhile back and was really inpressed at the way that healthcare costs can be cut just by practicing good, honest medicine. I also think this was the article that Obama read because, if I'm not mistaken, he was impressed by how the practice medicine in McAllen. IMO it's a blueprint for you we should be practicing medicine all over the country.

495 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #494 Kewalo

It makes obvious sense when you read it: of course the culture of medicine matters! Of course doctors are the gatekeepers of the delivery of care!

I'm glad you liked it.

496 Cforchange  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:51:11pm

This is a golden opportunity for the GOP to move to an exclusive economic platform. The GOP should assume that a movement garnering a tag like "tea party" are individuals looking for government competency and efficiency, all conducted in the most fair and ethical manner.

If the Tea Party objective is economics, they will prove it by declaring general support for the Republican party once the economic platform is declared. Protesting efforts should morph into opportunites for potential candidates to prove their fiscal fitness.

The opportunity has presented itself now we need the leadership to take charge. It is time for GOP leadership to focus on where the majority can agree and that answer is very clear. It is the wallet.

497 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:00:20pm

re: #496 Cforchange

"It's the economy stupid...!"

Who, woulda thunk it...?

498 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:12:37pm

re: #496 Cforchange

Mon apologies, Cfc...
Jim Carville; spoke to your comment, long before I remembered it...
Thanks fore the memories...!

499 IanMc  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:38:03pm

The Tea Party Movement is genuine and one of the best things to happen to our society and politics and in recent years. It is made up and driven by the American people. NOT politicians, bureaucrats or special interest groups. Not by the Republican party which is why so many Americans identify with and attend the Tea Parties.

I do not understand what Charles Johnson is thinking. We are not supposed the have a ruling class in this nation. That was not the intention of our Founding Fathers. We're supposed to have a government of the people, by the people, for the people. But what we have now, especially in Washington DC and with the current President and Congress that seems to think the people are supposed to serve the government.

Our government doesn't listen to us, it doesn't represent us, it spends our money like there's no tomorrow and it has no grasp of common sense and yet Charles thinks we're "wackos".

500 oldegeezr  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:40:49pm

re: #462 Aceofwhat?

Interesting juxtaposition for freedom of speech…Ace.

LGF from Ft. Worth is magnanimous!
While Ace from Austin, deletes commentary?

Huh...?

501 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:51:19pm

re: #499 IanMc

Right.

And you're one of the people who saw nothing racist about a picture of Barack Obama with a bone through his nose.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Not surprising that you're a tea party fan. And yet another demonstration of the truth of what I wrote above.

502 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:27:51pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

lib'ruls


/

503 BigBadPaul  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 2:47:28pm

Charles, There will always be a few wacos that come out to any and every event because they have a need to push their agenda. ie code pink. But it seems like you are thowing the baby out with the bath water. Do you really think that the tea parties are 100% scams put in place by some vast Christian right extremist group? Could there not possibly be a few good people there that just care about this country and see it going in the wrong direction? Doesn't the fact the numerous people here have told you they have been to the events and there are good people there?...Doesn't that count for anything in your well thought through opinion???

504 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 2:53:26pm

re: #503 BigBadPaul

Charles, There will always be a few wacos that come out to any and every event because they have a need to push their agenda. ie code pink. But it seems like you are thowing the baby out with the bath water. Do you really think that the tea parties are 100% scams put in place by some vast Christian right extremist group? Could there not possibly be a few good people there that just care about this country and see it going in the wrong direction? Doesn't the fact the numerous people here have told you they have been to the events and there are good people there?...Doesn't that count for anything in your well thought through opinion???

Dude, your sock doesn't ripen for two more days! Come back later, preferably after reading this thread, or some of the information provided here for your inconvenience.

505 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 2:58:33pm
506 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 3:07:40pm

re: #505 BigBadPaul

Actually, no. You're not cool at all.


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