Hitchens: Palin’s Nixon-Era Adviser

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Christopher Hitchens has an article at Slate about Sarah Palin’s increasingly open extremism, and points out that one of Palin’s new advisers is Fred Malek — the Nixon administration hatchetman who infamously compiled a list of Jews to be fired from the Department of Labor: Sarah Palin’s brand of populism is dangerous and deceptive.

On Saturday night, she was due to put on a black dress and be a featured guest at the Gridiron Club dinner in Washington, D.C. It was time to don the fake finery of wit and beauty again. (I do hope this isn’t why the press, which gives this annual gala, went so utterly soft on her “birther” garbage over the course of last weekend.) The person who has been introducing Palin into the more exalted social and political circles of the capital, and who has already arranged her appearance at the Alfalfa Club, is Fred Malek. Two things about Malek are worth bearing in mind.

The first is that he was an important member of the Nixon administration, a senior figure on the Republican National Committee, and the campaign manager for the re-election of George H.W. Bush in 1992. With his Carlyle Group and other corporate connections and his mansion in suburban Maclean, Va., Malek is almost the prototypical “establishment” Washington insider and consiglieri Republican, against whom Palin’s adoring book-tour crowds, in their pathetic dreams, imagine her to be a crusader. But her preposterous book Going Rogue is larded with praise for the wise support and advice of this leathery old Beltway bandit. Populism? Hah! Unless, that is, you count Jew-baiting as a form of populism, which I suppose in a way it is. (Bryan, that other foe of Darwin, was also a fan of the Klan.)

Because the second thing to note about Malek is that he was the man who drew up a list of Jews to be fired from the civil service under the Nixon administration. I am surprised that so many people have allowed themselves to forget this—and that Palin has never been asked a single question about it. In the early 1970s, Nixon, whose White House tapes show consistent evidence of anti-Semitic paranoia, gave orders that the Bureau of Labor Statistics be purged of what he called a “Jewish cabal.” The job of drawing up the list was given to Malek, whose information led to what was called the “reassignment” of some officials within the Labor Department. Malek later tried to give a weaselly excuse for his conduct, but was caught by my Slate colleague Timothy Noah.

It beats me why such a disgusting character is still received in polite circles, except that now at least he’s back doing the sort of task to which he is best-suited. He has found an unscrupulous and uncultured political neophyte who will happily act as a megaphone for any kind of libel and insinuation—Obama’s “palling around with terrorists” was, I suppose, the money shot of the last campaign—and then later revise and extend her remarks. Nasty work if you can get it. Malek, now so near old age, must be pinching himself at his good fortune.

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283 comments
1 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:52:46am

A-Malek?

2 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:54:36am

You can learn a lot about someone by the company they keep.

3 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:54:54am

Surrounding oneself with questionable advisors and hob-nobbing with radicals and fringers is simply unforgivable behavior. We saw all too clearly in the last election that such associations are pure political poison and immediate disqualifiers for high office.

4 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:55:23am

I'm glad that someone has pointed this out.

But coming from Hitchens,it's a bit ironic. His defenses of David Irving were preposturous, and his anti-Zionism is right up there with Norman Finkelstein.

He really is all over the map about Jews.

5 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:56:07am

Does she know this?

6 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:56:46am

How utterly hypocritical of her. Not the Jew-baiting part, though that's ugly, but the fact that he' s such a complete Washington insider.

7 Girth  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:10am

Hasn't anyone gotten the memo?

All Nixon-era figures are absolved of their sins and pardoned for their crimes. Buchanan, Colson, Liddy et. al are swell guys now.

Except for John Dean. Burn that motherfucker at the stake.

///

8 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:19am

re: #4 davesax

I'm glad that someone has pointed this out.

But coming from Hitchens,it's a bit ironic. His defenses of David Irving were preposturous, and his anti-Zionism is right up there with Norman Finkelstein.

He really is all over the map about Jews.

It's the old Weak Jew vs Stong Jew dichotomy.

Love 'em when they're weak, hate 'em when they're strong.

Regardless, I'm glad he pointed this out.

9 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:21am

re: #5 MandyManners

Does she know this?

Not the Malek she knew. Besides, the things he did with Nixon were when Sarah was but a wee young one. Hardly germane today.

10 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:29am

re: #3 Guanxi88

Surrounding oneself with questionable advisors and hob-nobbing with radicals and fringers is simply unforgivable behavior. We saw all too clearly in the last election that such associations are pure political poison and immediate disqualifiers for high office.

McCain lost because of his associations with radicals and fringers?

11 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:57:49am

Since the article mentions Nixon. Here's an old Nixon tape.

The Nixon Tapes: Jewish Spies vs. Negr* Spies

What you'll hear might be rather off putting so be forewarned.

12 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:58:09am

Nixon saved Israel.

13 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:58:12am

re: #10 cliffster

McCain lost because of his associations with radicals and fringers?

No. The fellow who won, though, had no such baggage in his background whatsoever.

(IRONY)

14 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:58:21am

l8r.

15 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:58:31am

re: #3 Guanxi88

I enjoyed the sarcasm.

16 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:02:26pm
What price the courageous frontier huntress now—an empty-headed echo chamber for rumor-mongers and freaks who shoots from ambush and then runs away? Some condescending right-wing intellectuals are calling her style "populist" and comparing it with Andrew Jackson and William Jennings Bryan. The true name for it is demagogy, descending from Joseph McCarthy, Robert Welch, and the nastier elements of the old Nixon gang—people to whom slander and defamation was second nature.

Hitch nails it right there.

17 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:02:35pm

Nixon Tape 545

President Nixon: There’s a Jewish cabal, you know, running through this, working with people like [Arthur] Burns and the rest. And they all—they all only talk to Jews. Now, but there it is. But there’s the BLS staff. Now how the hell do you ever expect us to get anything from that staff, the raw data, let alone what the poor guys have to say [unclear] that isn’t gonna be loaded against us? You understand?

Haldeman: Is Alex working on that?

Ehrlichman: [Fred] Malek.

President Nixon: Oh, Malek is. Oh.

18 transient  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:03:25pm

Palin: when you absolutely, positively want to lose the next election.

19 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:03:48pm

Well, it's only a matter of time before Sarah Palin responds to this via the media the unfiltered media of Facebook. But because I know she's been so busy going Rogue, I've taken the liberty of writing her facebook status for her:

Now they're attacking a sweet old man who has been kind enough, in the winters of his year, to be a maverick and give me guidance, as Providence dictates. I guess it's okay for the president to pal around with terrorists, but when I rise up and hold my baby Trig [photo inserted here], they question not only my patriotism but my maternal instincts, and how will tax reform work when death panels we need to focus on real America and real American values.

oy...it makes my hed spin just trying to get inside her thought process.

20 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:04:00pm

I suspect his attitude is shared by many politicians across the board. Only, now it's been replaced with "neocons" rather than "Jewish cabal".

21 transient  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:05:14pm

re: #19 darthstar

oy...it makes my hed spin just trying to get inside her thought process.


That way madness lies.

22 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:05:20pm

re: #9 Guanxi88

Not the Malek she knew. Besides, the things he did with Nixon were when Sarah was but a wee young one. Hardly germane today.

Of course, that's not the same as the relationship 8 year old Barack Obama had with then-terrorist Bill Ayers.

23 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:05:41pm

There are days when I wonder if the only people attracted to politics are those with no real life skills, too much time and money, too little knowledge and an axe to grind.

Then there are times like this when I am absolutely convinced of that is the case.

24 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:06:54pm

I read that as Hitchens was Palin's new adviser, and the world stopped spinning on its axis and I flew sideways through time on a silver machine.

Then i reread it.

25 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:07:04pm

Counting Jews at BLS

Meanwhile, Haldeman tried to find out how many BLS employees were Jews. “What’s the status of your analysis of the BLS,” he wrote to Personnel Chief Malek on July 26, “specifically of the 21 key people. What is their demographic breakdown?”

Malek replied the next day. “We were able to obtain political affiliation checks on 35 of the 50 names listed on their organization chart.” There were 25 Democrats, 5 unregistered, 4 independents, and 1 Republican. “In addition, 13 out of the 35 fit the other demographic criterion that was discussed.” There was a handwritten note: “Most of these are at the top.”

Later that day, the President asked, “Did you ever get the number of Jews that were in BLS?”

“I got their biographies yesterday. I’m having them analyzed,” Ehrlichman said. “Oh, the radio and the wires are full this morning that Arthur Burns wanted a salary increase.”

“I wonder where that came from,” Nixon said. “I’ll never forget Arthur sitting in here telling us a year ago there shouldn’t be a salary increase and that the Cabinet officers should give it back.”

More here:

[Link: www.whitehousetapes.net...]

26 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #22 darthstar

Of course, that's not the same as the relationship 8 year old Barack Obama had with then-terrorist Bill Ayers.

Those 8 year olds, they'll cut ya. Dennis the Menace? Terrorist!

27 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:07:38pm
He has found an unscrupulous and uncultured political neophyte who will happily act as a megaphone for any kind of libel and insinuation [...]

Those two words sum up Palin better than anything I can think of, unless it be mendacious and meretricious.

28 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:07:41pm

re: #22 darthstar

Of course, that's not the same as the relationship 8 year old Barack Obama had with then-terrorist Bill Ayers.

Exactly my point. The nastiness of Ayers was contemporaneous with the childhood of his neighbor (and nothing more) BHO; Malek's nastiness was roughly at the same period, historically, and so it's long, long since passed relevance.

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:21pm

re: #12 Ben Hur

Nixon saved Israel.

But who lost China? God dammit, it was right there on the counter next to my cell phone!

30 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:37pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

What price the courageous frontier huntress now—an empty-headed echo chamber for rumor-mongers and freaks who shoots from ambush and then runs away? Some condescending right-wing intellectuals are calling her style "populist" and comparing it with Andrew Jackson and William Jennings Bryan. The true name for it is demagogy, descending from Joseph McCarthy, Robert Welch, and the nastier elements of the old Nixon gang—people to whom slander and defamation was second nature.

Hitch nails it right there.

Interesting that William Jennings Bryan - the prosecutor in the Scopes Trial - is being dredged up in this context.

Are we soon to be treated to a Cross of Gold speech?

31 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:43pm

Let's not forget what Sarah Palin said in response to the Israeli-Palestinian situation just a week or so ago about "Jews flocking to Israel"...she's an end-timer, one of those nuts who thinks that, once all the Jews are corraled inside Israel, the "Great Suck" will happen (Jesus comes with a giant hoover and pulls all the faithful off the planet leaving the heathens around to fight over their left-behind property).

Maybe she knows Malek better than we give her credit for.

32 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:08:51pm

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Those two words sum up Palin better than anything I can think of, unless it be mendacious and meretricious.

Tack on mendicant if that whole book-selling thing doesn't work out for her.

33 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:09:01pm

And yes, I'm calling Sarah a lying political whore.

34 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:09:21pm

re: #26 WindUpBird

Those 8 year olds, they'll cut ya. Dennis the Menace? Terrorist!

You never read Apt Pupil?

///

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:09:48pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You never read Apt Pupil?

///

I saw the movie! *ducks*

36 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:10:15pm

re: #31 darthstar

Let's not forget what Sarah Palin said in response to the Israeli-Palestinian situation just a week or so ago about "Jews flocking to Israel"...she's an end-timer, one of those nuts who thinks that, once all the Jews are corraled inside Israel, the "Great Suck" will happen (Jesus comes with a giant hoover and pulls all the faithful off the planet leaving the heathens around to fight over their left-behind property).

Maybe she knows Malek better than we give her credit for.

Nativists stick together. That's what they do.

37 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:10:31pm

Could Sarah win a Congressional seat? Doubtful. Senate? Maybe. I am just not worried about her winning the GOP primary. If anything, she would go indy, or Tea Party. And go the way of Anderson, Perot etc.

38 hokiepride  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:11:18pm

Is it also true that Palin attended a rally for that vile racist anti-Semite Patrick J. Buchanan? Hitchens mentions this, but any proof?

39 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:11:26pm

re: #37 Rightwingconspirator

There is and has been a push for Sarah to go third party since the tax protests first started.

40 Nim Chimpsky  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:11:45pm

#22 And who could forget the execrable Reverend Wright? Mr. Obama's association - even reverence - for an America-hating. misogynistic Jew hater didn't seem to hurt his campaign. There are plenty of anti-Semites to go around on both the left and on the right.

41 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:11:58pm

re: #37 Rightwingconspirator

Could Sarah win a Congressional seat? Doubtful. Senate? Maybe. I am just not worried about her winning the GOP primary. If anything, she would go indy, or Tea Party. And go the way of Anderson, Perot etc.

She had a governorship that she quit. What makes you think she wants anything other then the presidency and/or money.

42 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:12:51pm

re: #28 Guanxi88

What brings you the confidence that Malek's nastiness is in the past?

What about the larger problem of the hypocrisy of Palin using someone who is the epitome of a Washington insider as her adviser?

43 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #40 Nim Chimpsky

#22 And who could forget the execrable Reverend Wright? Mr. Obama's association - even reverence - for an America-hating. misogynistic Jew hater didn't seem to hurt his campaign. There are plenty of anti-Semites to go around on both the left and on the right.

Agree. It's his insider position rather than old cowardice that I fault her for.

44 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:37pm

re: #37 Rightwingconspirator

Could Sarah win a Congressional seat? Doubtful. Senate? Maybe. I am just not worried about her winning the GOP primary. If anything, she would go indy, or Tea Party. And go the way of Anderson, Perot etc.

Frankly, I welcome the scrutiny she and her associations are receiving.

Every time someone observes she's a null entity, a glossy package of absolutely insubstantial nothingness, the perfect blank screen for the hopes and fantasies of her constituency, every time anyone points to the nasty and sordid folk she surrounds herself with, every time it's observed that she's a smile and a wave and an attitude and not much else other than insidious intent, they chip away a little bit at the hard shell of adulation and such that built up around the current President.

Every thing wrong and despicable about Palin is wrong and despicable about Obama; any honest person can see it. It's the chief reason I dislike her so intently.

45 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:40pm

re: #38 hokiepride

Is it also true that Palin attended a rally for that vile racist anti-Semite Patrick J. Buchanan? Hitchens mentions this, but any proof?

[Link: www.mydd.com...]

46 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:45pm

Hear the rumbling of the stampeding villagers with their pitchforks

47 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:52pm

The smell of tu quoque is getting very thick in here.

48 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:13:59pm

re: #28 Guanxi88

Exactly my point. The nastiness of Ayers was contemporaneous with the childhood of his neighbor (and nothing more) BHO; Malek's nastiness was roughly at the same period, historically, and so it's long, long since passed relevance.

Ah, but because Sarah made Ayers an issue, Malek is fair game. And that will be the argument that she has to defend (via facebook, of course) for the next few weeks.

Hypocrite-in's hard work, dontcha know?

49 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

There is and has been a push for Sarah to go third party since the tax protests first started.

Do you think it likley or just a bluff?

50 blueraven  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:23pm

re: #38 hokiepride

Is it also true that Palin attended a rally for that vile racist anti-Semite Patrick J. Buchanan? Hitchens mentions this, but any proof?

I think she has admitted to that, but as Hitch points out, claimed she wore the button as a courtesy.

51 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:26pm

re: #33 Cato the Elder

And yes, I'm calling Sarah a lying political whore.

You may have enjoyed Hitchens's final sentence then. I found it offensive.

52 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:27pm

re: #44 Guanxi88


Every thing wrong and despicable about Palin is wrong and despicable about Obama; any honest person can see it. It's the chief reason I dislike her so intently.

Everything? You sure you want to pin your flag to that? Everything?

53 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #48 darthstar

Ah, but because Sarah made Ayers an issue, Malek is fair game. And that will be the argument that she has to defend (via facebook, of course) for the next few weeks.

Hypocrite-in's hard work, dontcha know?

Absolutely. Let her step on her own feet with it. She brought this on herself.

54 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #41 recusancy

She had a governorship that she quit. What makes you think she wants anything other then the presidency and/or money.

Might as well limit it to money. Quitting the governorship pretty much ended her hopes of ever holding office again.

She seems content with the role of professional gadfly. The money's good, and she doesn't have to face the press or anyone else that might raise uncomfortable questions.

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:04pm

re: #40 Nim Chimpsky

#22 And who could forget the execrable Reverend Wright? Mr. Obama's association - even reverence - for an America-hating. misogynistic Jew hater didn't seem to hurt his campaign. There are plenty of anti-Semites to go around on both the left and on the right.

Ah, the "he did it too" argument!

Tu quoque is not a caffeinated soft drink, sir.

56 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:06pm

re: #52 Obdicut

Everything? You sure you want to pin your flag to that? Everything?

Yes, everything. She's a null entity, and so there's no substance to even go after in the first place.

57 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #31 darthstar

the "Great Suck" will happen (Jesus comes with a giant hoover and pulls all the faithful off the planet leaving the heathens around to fight over their left-behind property).

As a believer who doesn't subscribe to the "Left behind" doctrine I find that comment gutbustingly funny.

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:15:45pm

re: #47 Charles

The smell of tu quoque is getting very thick in here.

Ack! You totally beat me to it! ;_;

59 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:17:06pm

re: #55 WindUpBird

Ah, the "he did it too" argument!

Tu quoque is not a caffeinated soft drink, sir.

How proud you must be of your President then.

60 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:17:07pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

There is and has been a push for Sarah to go third party since the tax protests first started.

Why does that sound dirty?

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:17:21pm

re: #31 darthstar

Let's not forget what Sarah Palin said in response to the Israeli-Palestinian situation just a week or so ago about "Jews flocking to Israel"...she's an end-timer, one of those nuts who thinks that, once all the Jews are corraled inside Israel, the "Great Suck" will happen (Jesus comes with a giant hoover and pulls all the faithful off the planet leaving the heathens around to fight over their left-behind property).

Maybe she knows Malek better than we give her credit for.

Now I'm thinking of MegaMaid from Spaceballs.

62 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:17:29pm

re: #58 WindUpBird

Ack! You totally beat me to it! ;_;

I had to google it.. I thought maybe it was an Indian Spice or something..
/

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:18:29pm

re: #59 cliffster

How proud you must be of your President then.

Yes.

I am pretty proud of him. He's doing what I voted for him to do. I know it must light up your central nervous system like a pinball machine to hear someone say that.

64 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:18:30pm

re: #56 Guanxi88

Yes, everything. She's a null entity, and so there's no substance to even go after in the first place.

I think you're making a completely ridiculous claim, then. Hell, just his reversal of the stem-cell ban is a move with actual substance to it.

You seem very, very intent on using this story to somehow slam Obama, and it's a big, big, big stretch to do so.

65 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:18:32pm

Whatever taint he brings to Palin, he brought to GHW Bush first. From Wiki:

Bush administration

In September 1989, Malek was appointed by President Bush to coordinate plans for the 1990 economic summit of industrialized nations. The appointment was seen as a test of whether Malek could successfully serve in the administration. Malek had been a deputy chairman of the RNC in charge of the national convention in 1988 and was said to be "on track" for chief of staff in the Bush White House, but resigned to dissasociate the Vice President from negative publicity from the Nixon administration controversy.[9]

The appointment proved a success, and in 1992 Bush appointed Fred Malek campaign manager for his re-election. Malek was "responsible for nuts-and-bolts daily management." Malek ran the campaign with fundraiser Robert Mosbacher and pollster Robert Teeter out of a rented office in downtown Washington.[10]

The rot was there a long time before I was paying this kind of attention to it.

66 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #55 WindUpBird

Ah, the "he did it too" argument!

Tu quoque is not a caffeinated soft drink, sir.

How, exactly, is that pronounced?
Two ko kay?

67 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:18:37pm

re: #61 WindUpBird

Time to switch from suck to blow. ///

68 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:10pm

re: #59 cliffster

How proud you must be of your President then.

Shouldn't that be our president?

69 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:15pm

re: #46 cliffster

Hear the rumbling of the stampeding villagers with their pitchforks

Throw in halves for the torch concessesion?

70 lightspeed  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:28pm

This should be devastating to her image. Somehow, I don't think it will be. Anti-semitism seems to be the one thing that is tolerated by both the left and the right.

71 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:32pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

I had to google it.. I thought maybe it was an Indian Spice or something..
/

I had to look that one up too

72 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:34pm

re: #66 bosforus

Two Kwo-Kway.

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:44pm

re: #66 bosforus

How, exactly, is that pronounced?
Two ko kay?

That's how I say it! Hopefully I haven't been butchering it.

74 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #49 brookly red

Do you think it likley or just a bluff?

What I worry about is the theo-cons continuing to try to maintain their death grip on the GOP by harming third party sentiment. The Tea Party ticket discussed on the last thread makes me fear that a legitimate move towards a rational third party would be harmed by the kooks starting one of their own. This will only fracture the right and empower the left. With a third party again seeming like a poor solution to the problem, folks will be told they have to accept the theo-cons in the GOP. I do think a third party ticket is very possible in 2012. It will fail, if they try.

75 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:20:18pm

re: #66 bosforus

How, exactly, is that pronounced?
Two ko kay?


One Ko Kay, two ko kay, three ko kay numnumnumnum

-Cookie Monster

76 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:20:44pm

re: #68 Gus 802

Shouldn't that be our president?

Could be one of those folk from 'real America'...they're out there...I seen 'em.

77 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #67 lawhawk

Time to switch from suck to blow. ///


Thats what she said or in bed in ...3 ...2 ...1

78 hokiepride  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:21:25pm

If Palin runs in 2012, it will be a Mondale type landslide in favor of the Dems. If Obama is radioactive by then they might just run Tim Kaine or some centrist Southern Democrat. Palin does not stand a chance currently. If she works hard to gain gravitas and shed her extremist image she is building up, she could be a GOP dark horse.

79 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:21:26pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Two Kwo-Kway.

I think he was the whale hunter in Moby Dick. /

80 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:21:36pm

re: #64 Obdicut

I think you're making a completely ridiculous claim, then. Hell, just his reversal of the stem-cell ban is a move with actual substance to it.

You seem very, very intent on using this story to somehow slam Obama, and it's a big, big, big stretch to do so.

The story points up the undeniable fact that our current political culture, such as it is, rewards, rather than punishes, this type of folly and stupidity. If Palin were seeking office, or in office, these associations would be interesting, important, and even noteworthy. As it is, it's politcal trivia on a par with celebrity gossip and the running count of Tiger Woods' mistresses.

In the last go around, we had, as noted earlier, little more than the dance of the shiny objects. BHO and Palin are two sides of the same phoney-baloney coin; the Coke and Pepsi of image-driven politics.

81 The Curmudgeon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:21:38pm

re: #73 WindUpBird

That's how I say it! Hopefully I haven't been butchering it.

Too Kwo Kway

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:22:09pm

re: #79 DaddyG

I think he was the whale hunter in Moby Dick. /

In bed.

83 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:00pm

re: #68 Gus 802

Shouldn't that be our president?

One does not preclude the other. When my kid is naughty.. "Look at what your son did".

84 Kragar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:07pm

Obdicut, you read any of that book PDF I linked for you a few days ago?

85 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:25pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

The story points up the undeniable fact that our current political culture, such as it is, rewards, rather than punishes, this type of folly and stupidity. If Palin were seeking office, or in office, these associations would be interesting, important, and even noteworthy. As it is, it's politcal trivia on a par with celebrity gossip and the running count of Tiger Woods' mistresses.

In the last go around, we had, as noted earlier, little more than the dance of the shiny objects. BHO and Palin are two sides of the same phoney-baloney coin; the Coke and Pepsi of image-driven politics.

At least we aren't electing actors and comedians to public office. /

86 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:54pm

re: #85 DaddyG

At least we aren't electing actors and comedians to public office. /

Thank the Lord Almighty we've been spared that, at least!
:)

87 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:23:56pm

re: #82 WindUpBird

In bed.

You're thinking of Tucoq Shaker...a doubly-endowed rapper.

88 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

You may have enjoyed Hitchens's final sentence then. I found it offensive.

You mean this?

At least Richard Nixon had the ill fortune to look like what he was: a haunted scoundrel and repressed psychopath. Whereas the usefulness of Sarah Palin to the right-wing party managers is that she combines a certain knowingness with a feigned innocence and a still-palpable blush of sex. But she should take care to read her Alexander Pope: That bloom will soon enough fade, and it will fade really quickly if she uses it to prostitute herself to the Nixonites on one day and then to cock-tease the rabble on the next.

Truth is a bitch.

89 lightspeed  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #85 DaddyG

At least we aren't electing actors and comedians to public office. /

That is EXACTLY who we are electing!

90 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #87 darthstar

You're thinking of Tucoq Shaker...a doubly-endowed rapper.


Papa was a rolling stone - mama was a possum. /

91 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:01pm

To kwo kway appears to be the consensus.
And the correct pronunciation.
[Link: www.answers.com...]
Thanks, everybody.

92 Slap  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:09pm

re: #87 darthstar

Correction: rapper/furniture maker.

93 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:26pm

I was as concerned about Obama's association with Rev. Wright as anyone during the election.

But the fact is that Obama has not shown any signs at all that he's actually a follower of Rev. Wright's craziness, and in fact he utterly renounced Wright, very publicly and very sincerely.

Obama's policies toward Israel seem no different than the past 4 or 5 administrations' policies. He talks about Israel ceasing the settlements, just like George Bush did, and then takes no real action to stop it. He has maintained the US policy of looking the other way on Israel's nuclear weapons. And he has continued US military supplies to Israel.

It's long past time to drop the Rev. Wright association as any kind of valid criticism of Obama. He's not aligned with Wright, any more than I'm "aligned with Hezbollah" as Pammy Geller and Robert Spencer are screaming.

94 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:38pm

re: #92 Slap

Ha!

95 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:25:54pm

Obama Says Some TARP Money Can Be Devoted to Deficit

President Barack Obama said he is considering “selective” use of money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program to boost U.S. job growth and that some of the fund can be devoted to deficit reduction.

Obama is set to give an address tomorrow on measures to help create jobs, and momentum is building among Democrats in Congress to tap the $700 billion TARP program, which was created last year to shore up financially troubled banks. The Treasury Department expects the program to cost about $200 billion less than predicted.

“Some of that money can be devoted to deficit reduction,” Obama said in response to a question from reporters at the White House. “The question is are there selective approaches that are consistent with the original goals of TARP, for example making sure that small businesses are still getting lending, that would be appropriate in accelerating job growth.”

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:26:13pm

re: #80 Guanxi88


In the last go around, we had, as noted earlier, little more than the dance of the shiny objects. BHO and Palin are two sides of the same phoney-baloney coin; the Coke and Pepsi of image-driven politics.

The forced equivalency of Palin with Obama is hilarious and not even remotely true.

Once Palin starts teaching at a respected university, let's talk.

97 brucee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:26:16pm

re: #5 MandyManners

We find out these things through newspapers, books, blogs, etc. Since she reads "all of them" I can't imagine how she would not know about this.

98 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:03pm

re: #93 Charles

Wow...I didn't know you were a member of Hezbollah. /(practicing my internet-reading comprehension skillz)

99 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:03pm

re: #83 cliffster

One does not preclude the other. When my kid is naughty.. "Look at what your son did".

Well, the topic isn't Obama. The topic secondarily about Fred Malek who was in an official position within the Nixon administration and was the lead man in "counting Jews" in the Department of Labor so they could be fired for being Jewish.

100 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:04pm

re: #47 Charles

But don't you find it wildly out of proportion? The huge and ongoing, (and seemingly singular) outrage over a fundraising host ten years ago, just seems ridiculous and desperate. Palin's orbit has been chock full of questionable characters since the beginning. Rev. Wright's rhetoric is hate filled, but I can also find some nuggets of truth. I do not think Obama sat in the pews getting brainwashed, becoming an apostle. Palin's Church is fact free fantasy land, filled with a different kind of hate and she is brainwashed and she does embrace and spew the rhetoric.

101 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:34pm

re: #93 Charles

It's long past time to drop the Rev. Wright association as any kind of valid criticism of Obama. He's not aligned with Wright, any more than I'm "aligned with Hezbollah" as Pammy Geller and Robert Spencer are screaming.

The charge of his alignment with Wright carries a bit more weight than the accusation you're alignmed with Hezbollah. I'd bet a pretty substantial sum you haven't attended ANY sermons preached by Nasrallah.

102 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:40pm

re: #74 Sharmuta

But the Tea Party becoming an official, and significant, third party would suck all the kooks out of the GOP, leaving behind the rational fiscal conservatives and small government/state's rights folks, no?

But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

103 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:27:47pm

re: #63 WindUpBird

Yes.

I am pretty proud of him. He's doing what I voted for him to do. I know it must light up your central nervous system like a pinball machine to hear someone say that.

Nothing really affects me that way, no matter how stupid. But, you miss the point. Palin does X, Obama did X. Someone points out that Obama did X too. You claim that just because Obama did X doesn't make it ok, so Palin is still bad. Which is true. But Obama still did it.

Hate these kinds of associations? Well let me introduce.. OUR President.

104 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:28:13pm

Law School Study Finds Evidence Of Cover-Up After Three Alleged Suicides At Guantanamo In 2006

On the night of June 9-10 in 2006, three prisoners held at the Guantánamo prison's Camp Delta died under mysterious circumstances. Military authorities responded by quickly ordering media representatives off the island and blocking lawyers from meeting with their clients. The first official military statements declared the deaths not just suicides -- but actually went so far as to describe them as acts of "asymmetrical warfare" against the United States.

Now a 58-page study prepared by law faculty and students at Seton Hall University in New Jersey starkly challenges the Pentagon's claims. It notes serious and unresolved contradictions within a Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) report -- which was publicly released only in fragmentary form, two years after the fact -- and declares the military's internal investigation an obvious cover-up. The only question is: of what?

Law Professor Mark Denbeaux, who directed the study, said in an interview that "there are two possibilities here. Either the investigation is a cover-up of gross dereliction of duty, or it is a cover-up of something far more chilling. More than three years later we do not know what really happened."

105 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

Should be ALL of the repaid TARP money.

106 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:28:55pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

The forced equivalency of Palin with Obama is hilarious and not even remotely true.

Once Palin starts teaching at a respected university, let's talk.

BHO was no more elected on the basis of his teaching at Chicago than McCain was not elected because he didn't teach there.

HRC was a serious political figure with whom I disagreed fundamentally on a number of issues. But she wasn't an image or a product. BHO was.

107 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:29:00pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

The forced equivalency of Palin with Obama is hilarious and not even remotely true.

Once Palin starts teaching at a respected university, let's talk.

The woman barely got her bachelor's degree...in communication, ironically.

108 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:29:02pm

re: #102 Soap_Man

But the Tea Party becoming an official, and significant, third party would suck all the kooks out of the GOP, leaving behind the rational fiscal conservatives and small government/state's rights folks, no?

But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

The theo-cons should put their money where their mouth is and join the Constitution Party.

109 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:29:14pm
110 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:29:15pm

re: #59 cliffster

How proud you must be of your President then.

Well, in stark contrast to Palin, Obama repudiated, denounced and separated himself from Wright once Wright's anti-semitism was revealed, whereas Palin seems to have actively sought out a known and famous anti-semite to advise her politically. So yes, comparatively I am very proud of him.

111 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:30:14pm

re: #88 Cato the Elder

Well, that's the paragraph, I mentioned only the final sentence. The truth doesn't bother me, it's the use of "prostitution" and "cock-tease", and more the latter than the former. Maybe I'm just a prude.

112 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:30:25pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

Obama Says Some TARP Money Can Be Devoted to Deficit

Deficit reduction is good... I was thinking maybe proping up social security, which for some reason seems to be on the political back burner lately.

113 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:30:47pm

re: #101 Guanxi88

The charge of his alignment with Wright carries a bit more weight than the accusation you're alignmed with Hezbollah.

If you think there's some validity to the charge that Obama is "aligned with Wright," then name one issue on which Obama takes a position similar to Wright's.

114 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:30:51pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

You just seem ridiculous when you compare Palin and Obama, I'm sorry. I have significant problems with Obama, but the problems I have with them are entirely different than the problems I have with Palin.

If Palin were seeking office, or in office, these associations would be interesting, important, and even noteworthy. As it is, it's politcal trivia on a par with celebrity gossip and the running count of Tiger Woods' mistresses.

I don't think saying that this article is just celebrity gossip is very thoughtful, respectful, or wise.

115 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:31:21pm

re: #110 goddamnedfrank

Well, in stark contrast to Palin, Obama repudiated, denounced and separated himself from Wright once Wright's anti-semitism was revealed, whereas Palin seems to have actively sought out a known and famous anti-semite to advise her politically. So yes, comparatively I am very proud of him.

"Once it was revealed" should have read "once it became politically expedient to do so"; it was "revealed" in any and every sermon or publication of Wright's church on the subject of Israel, the Palestinians, and Jews in general.

116 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:31:33pm

re: #93 Charles

Thoughts met in passing. Thank you. For all the scrutiny/digging, seen in the multitude of bogus nontroversies listed last night, Ayers and Wright seem to be the only bone that had even a scrap of meat on them. But they are chewed to a boring pulp.

117 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:32:30pm

Another for the "Yikes!" category:

Santorum: ‘Absolutely Taking a Look' at Running in '12; Palin Will ‘Have to Do Some Explaining if She Runs'

Asked whether he's considering a run for president, Santorum, R-Pa., said on ABCNews.com's "Top Line" today: "Absolutely -- absolutely taking a look."

"But look -- I'm doing it in the context that right now, there's, you know, there's very important matters and I want to weigh into those matters as to what the Republican Party stands for in 2010," Santorum continued.

"I think I've been very clear that you know, we need to stand foursquare on the traditional values. When I say traditional values people think, ‘Oh that means, you know, social conservatism and the family. It also means the free enterprise system and that government shouldn't be large and controlling things -- I mean, those are all core Republican principle."

Asked if he thinks former Gov. Sarah Palin, R-Alaska, is qualified to be president, Santorum demurred:

"No, I'll let the people decide that," he said. "I think, you know, she's done a lot to draw attention to herself that's positive. She's done some things that, you know, certainly are going to cause her to have to do some explaining if she runs for president. But right now I think she's on a roll, she's having a good time, she's having an impact, which look -- if you're sitting here out of office, the thing you want to do is have an impact on the direction of the country right now, if you're not governing things. And she's having an impact."

118 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:32:48pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

Constitution Party, Tea Party, Conservative Party, or whatever other name they want to come up with. If the far right wants to start its own party, I say do it. They can be the far right party, and leave the GOP to the moderates.

And maybe after the GOP returns to sanity, they can get moderate libs and be a true centrist party. I would be on board.

119 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:33:02pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

Obama Says Some TARP Money Can Be Devoted to Deficit

President Barack Obama said he is considering “selective” use of money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program to boost U.S. job growth and that some of the fund can be devoted to deficit reduction.

Obama is set to give an address tomorrow on measures to help create jobs, and momentum is building among Democrats in Congress to tap the $700 billion TARP program, which was created last year to shore up financially troubled banks. The Treasury Department expects the program to cost about $200 billion less than predicted.

“Some of that money can be devoted to deficit reduction,” Obama said in response to a question from reporters at the White House. “The question is are there selective approaches that are consistent with the original goals of TARP, for example making sure that small businesses are still getting lending, that would be appropriate in accelerating job growth.”

WAIT WAIT WAIT - TARP was funded through deficit spending. It's based on monopoly money in the first place. You can't reduce the deficit by paying it off with money you borrowed and ran up the deficit with in the first place. The idea of "spending" a portion of TARP to reduce the deficit is beyond voodoo economics, beyond fantasy, beyond the most extreme hallucinations of a schizophrenic crack addict on meth and peyote. It's utterly preposterous.

The way to reduce the deficit is to NOT SPEND THAT MONEY AT ALL!!! Admit you don't need it, and reduce the amount you borrowed to begin with. THAT will reduce the deficit. Not spending funds that don't exist in the first place.

120 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:33:27pm

re: #4 davesax

I'm glad that someone has pointed this out.

But coming from Hitchens,it's a bit ironic. His defenses of David Irving were preposturous, and his anti-Zionism is right up there with Norman Finkelstein.

He really is all over the map about Jews.

Actually, Hitchens isn't really all over the map. You have to understand his basic philosophy about religion and culture.

I completely disagree with him about Israel, but I understand what he's saying when he says he's anti-Zionist. It's not that he hates Jews, but he truly is a philosophical purist at times. He hates religion with a passion but he loves the cultural identity of Jews and others, as most do on the left. He also hates anything to do with repressing anyone else - no matter whom they are.

Strictly speaking, he's a complete idealist on the issue. When you hear him talk about Israel acting militarily against terrorists, he sounds both for and against it - because he hates the Hamas and everything they stand for except the independence part.

Again, I disagree with him on some basic issues of Israel - I think Israel is a necessity, and he wishes humanity would move beyond anything to do with religion. I guess I'm just more practical on the matter and he's more idealistic. But he doesn't support terrorism on any level and abhors people who use it. Especially when it comes to religiously motivated terrorism.

I can safely say though that Hitchens is not an anti-semite. Most people who are against Israel are, but he is one of the incredibly rare exceptions where you know he's coming from a completely different philosophical base.

At least that's what I've learned from reading him over the years. =)

121 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:34:14pm

re: #113 Charles

If you think there's some validity to the charge that Obama is "aligned with Wright," then name one issue on which Obama takes a position similar to Wright's.

Charles:

Do you think he just happened into that church? Do you honestly think he would have sat through that nonsense, and expressed such high praise for the man, if he was not, at the very least, sympathetic to his expressed opinions?

To argue otherwise would be to suggest he was simply exploiting Wright and his church for base political gain.

Has he enacted any Jeremiah Wright inspired policies? No, so far as I can tell, he has not. Has Palin proposed firing Jews from the Department of Labor?

122 jaunte  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:34:26pm

re: #117 iceweasel

Yikes indeed; even Santorum admits Palin has 'some explaining' to do.

123 lightspeed  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:34:41pm

re: #93 Charles

Obama's policies toward Israel seem no different than the past 4 or 5 administrations' policies.

Agreed. Weak, shortsighted, and ineffective. Just like the last 4 or 5 administrations.

124 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:34:42pm

re: #119 SixDegrees

WAIT WAIT WAIT - TARP was funded through deficit spending. It's based on monopoly money in the first place. You can't reduce the deficit by paying it off with money you borrowed and ran up the deficit with in the first place. The idea of "spending" a portion of TARP to reduce the deficit is beyond voodoo economics, beyond fantasy, beyond the most extreme hallucinations of a schizophrenic crack addict on meth and peyote. It's utterly preposterous.

The way to reduce the deficit is to NOT SPEND THAT MONEY AT ALL!!! Admit you don't need it, and reduce the amount you borrowed to begin with. THAT will reduce the deficit. Not spending funds that don't exist in the first place.

Thanks for the explanation. This was sorta percolating in the back of my mind, but I couldn't figure out how to say it.

125 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:35:01pm

Do Obama and the Dems have questionable associations and unsavory characters. Yes. Do the current crop of Republican (or Socon third party candidates) have questionable associations and unsavory characters? Yes.

Do "real" Scotsmen anti-idolitarians skewer both for those unsavory practices? Yup.

Is it easier to see them in people we disagree with politically than it is in our own sacred cows? Yessir!

Are we all to some degree defensive for those we tend to identify with? Youbetcha!

Are others going to paint us a hypocrites because of this? Does a cub reporter crap on Tiger Woods?

My only sincere question about the Palin issue is "what is the big deal?" I personally doubt her popularity will outlast her book tour.

I don't believe that the nuttiness surrounding the Republican party is somehow a lasting trajectory for their future any more than the nuttiness of the Democrats over the last 8 years was a permanent trajectory for their party.

Those out of power get shrill and jockey for position. It is a time honored tradition in organizations and politics.

(Gee Charles you think that anti-idolitarian would be included in spell check. I'm just sayinn')

126 brucee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:35:05pm
127 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:35:12pm

re: #47 Charles

The smell of tu quoque is getting very thick in here.

Tu quoque will be the first line of defense. Secondary line of defense will be to slander Christopher Hitchens.

128 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:35:40pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

Obama Says Some TARP Money Can Be Devoted to Deficit


If I wanted to pay for the deficit I'd invest in postage stamps. /

129 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:36:01pm

The funniest part of the whole essay is the image of Palin attempting to read Alexander Pope.

This day, black Omens threat the brightest Fair,
That e'er deserv'd a watchful spirit's care;
Some dire disaster, or by force, or slight;
But what, or where, the fates have wrapt in night.
Whether the nymph shall break Diana's law,
Or some frail China jar receive a flaw;
Or stain her honour or her new brocade;
Forget her pray'rs, or miss a masquerade;
Or lose her heart, or necklace, at a ball;
Or whether Heav'n has doom'd that Shock must fall.
Haste, then, ye spirits! to your charge repair:
The flutt'ring fan be Zephyretta's care;
The drops to thee, Brillante, we consign;
And, Momentilla, let the watch be thine;
Do thou, Crispissa, tend her fav'rite Lock;
Ariel himself shall be the guard of Shock.

You can just see the look of vapid frustration on her face, can't you?

130 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

Has he enacted any Jeremiah Wright inspired policies? No, so far as I can tell, he has not.

OK, so you admit that it's an empty accusation at this point.

Has Palin proposed firing Jews from the Department of Labor?

Obama denounced Wright very publicly. I hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for Palin to denounce Malek.

131 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:36:39pm

re: #41 recusancy

Nothing really, just speculating about the possibilities. I think its just the money.

She has no shot at the oval office. Just my opinion of course.

132 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:36:48pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

I think he went to that church because he was a transplant in Chicago without any roots who wanted to run for office. It was the one of the biggest churches in the district, a way to be known to the community.

Now, that doesn't forgive him staying there for so long, but that's probably what brought him there in the first place.

133 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:37:05pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

Has Palin proposed firing Jews from the Department of Labor?

No, she's just said they will soon 'flock to Israel'...for her, problem solved.

134 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:37:06pm

re: #113 Charles

name one issue on which Obama takes a position similar to Wright's.

The missionary position? /

135 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:37:07pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

Charles:

Do you think he just happened into that church? Do you honestly think he would have sat through that nonsense, and expressed such high praise for the man, if he was not, at the very least, sympathetic to his expressed opinions?

To argue otherwise would be to suggest he was simply exploiting Wright and his church for base political gain.

Has he enacted any Jeremiah Wright inspired policies? No, so far as I can tell, he has not. Has Palin proposed firing Jews from the Department of Labor?

I think Wright means as much to Obama as Alinsky does. Namely, nothing at all.

136 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:37:22pm

re: #111 wrenchwench

Well, that's the paragraph, I mentioned only the final sentence. The truth doesn't bother me, it's the use of "prostitution" and "cock-tease", and more the latter than the former. Maybe I'm just a prude.

I have known plenty of cock-teases in my life. It's a female sport. I suppose feminists might deny it exists, but I'm a cynical old dog.

137 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:37:27pm

re: #119 SixDegrees

A pleasure to upding. Yes, let's make sure we spend 100% of that money that we don't have, not just a part of that money we don't have.

I still love how Clinton claimed he fixed Social Security all the way through 2040 (or whatever). Yes, there's an IOU set aside for all that money that we'll need up to then. Fixed it right up.

138 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:38:02pm

re: #130 Charles

Obama denounced Wright very publicly. I hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for Palin to denounce Malek.

Just wait until she has to; then she will. Or perhaps Malek has reformed himself over the years? maybe he's not the bigot he was? Both are possible.

point is, Malek's an advisor to a failed VP-candidate and soon-to-be-failed fiction writer.

139 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:38:14pm

re: #120 Summer

And actually I should rephrase what I just said about Hamas. Hitchens hates Hamas completely. He wants independence for the Palestinians but he hates their leadership and the terorrists who govern and brainwash them. When I referred to the independence part, I was referring to the Palestinian cause in general. He doesn't associate Hamas with that, as far as I can tell. He's cursed them enough as bloody murderers time and time again for me to understand that. =)

140 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:39:01pm

re: #133 darthstar

No, she's just said they will soon 'flock to Israel'...for her, problem solved.

I'm not sure she's suggesting forced migration. As a zionist, I understand the origins of her (Temporary) zionist position. I doubt she means harm to Jews or Israel.

141 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:39:16pm

re: #121 Guanxi88


Do you think he just happened into that church? Do you honestly think he would have sat through that nonsense, and expressed such high praise for the man, if he was not, at the very least, sympathetic to his expressed opinions?

Sure. He's a politician - first, last and always - and I've yet to run across a politician who used his church membership for anything other than political purposes. I'd be just as inclined to believe he hung out at Wright's church for the purely craven reason that it gave him a higher profile among his constituents as that he was drawn there out of agreement with the message being preached.

Maybe I've been around Detroit politics too long, but the idea that a politician actually believes anything that's preached in church is shaky, at best.

142 S'latch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:39:30pm

I doubt Sarah Palin is even serious about running for the presidency with an intention of winning it. I suspect she is actually more concerned about turning her fame into cash.

143 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:39:39pm

re: #136 Cato the Elder

I have known plenty of cock-teases in my life. It's a female sport. I suppose feminists might deny it exists, but I'm a cynical old dog.

Please do not mistake me for a feminist. Maybe a cynical old bitch...

144 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #130 Charles

It's not an accusation that he will enact any ridiculous, over-the-top policies per Wright. It's a concern that someone who sees through glasses covered as such is leading our country. He sat in that congregation, listened to the garbage without issue, finally denounced it only when forced to (see - Clinton's "admission" once cornered like a dog).

145 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:40:27pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

I think Wright means as much to Obama as Alinsky does. Namely, nothing at all.

Which makes the man all the more difficult to figure out, then, and gives credence to my conviction that he's a null entity.

146 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:41:17pm

re: #142 Lawrence Schmerel

I doubt Sarah Palin is even serious about running for the presidency with an intention of winning it. I suspect she is actually more concerned about turning her fame into cash.

That's my take, as well.

147 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:41:47pm

re: #142 Lawrence Schmerel

I doubt Sarah Palin is even serious about running for the presidency with an intention of winning it. I suspect she is actually more concerned about turning her fame into cash.

Hey, we've all got bills to pay.

148 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:42:30pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

Palin's more like Pope's Cecilia:


III.
But when our Country's cause provokes to Arms,
How martial music ev'ry bosom warms!
So when the first bold vessel dar'd the seas,
High on the stern the Thracian rais'd his strain,
While Argo saw her kindred trees
Descend from Pelion to the main.
Transported demi-gods stood round,
And men grew heroes at the sound,
Enflam'd with glory's charms:
Each chief his sev'nfold shield display'd,
And half unsheath'd the shining blade:
And seas, and rocks, and skies rebound
To arms, to arms, to arms!

But soon, her followers will have the same revelation given byJonathan Swift:


Thus finishing his grand Survey,
Disgusted Strephon stole away
Repeating in his amorous Fits,
Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!
149 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:42:38pm

re: #142 Lawrence Schmerel

I doubt Sarah Palin is even serious about running for the presidency with an intention of winning it. I suspect she is actually more concerned about turning her fame into cash.

Power is intoxicating though...

150 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:43:54pm

I read Saul Alinsky once. What does that make me?

151 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #149 Stanley Sea

Power is intoxicating though...

So is hair spray.

152 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:43:57pm

re: #140 Guanxi88

Not overtly, no. She is a 'left behind' nut though, and a pure Israel is the key to jump-starting the rapture.

153 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:06pm

re: #146 SixDegrees

That's my take, as well.

And in doing so, she blazes a trail of a combination of irrational absolute adoration, or irrational creepy hatred.

154 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:11pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

re: #145 Guanxi88

Which makes the man all the more difficult to figure out, then, and gives credence to my conviction that he's a null entity.


Could you define 'null entity', by the way, while you're throwing the phrase around?

155 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:15pm

re: #150 Cato the Elder

I read Saul Alinsky once. What does that make me?


A few hours older.

156 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:33pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

The funniest part of the whole essay is the image of Palin attempting to read Alexander Pope.

You can just see the look of vapid frustration on her face, can't you?

Schlog kapores comes to mind.

157 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:48pm

Mainstreaming racism (Via Breitbart)...
‘I Guess I’m a Racist’: What Really Motivates Opponents of ObamaCare?

Curiously there's no mention of who is funding the ad.

158 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:44:55pm

re: #145 Guanxi88

If he is difficult to figure out or a null entity, why do people keep trying to fill the void with negative, duplicitous motivations? Why is that the reflexive option?

159 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #149 Stanley Sea

Power is intoxicating though...

Gaining it, however, is not altogether simple. And Palin is unelectable for as far into the future as I'm able to see, thanks to quitting her governorship when the going got just a wee bit tough. It's a stone around her neck that will limit any actual campaign on her part to a matter of minutes.

160 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:45:13pm

re: #130 Charles

Obama denounced Wright very publicly. I hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for Palin to denounce Malek.

That's just it - and not only her, but what passes for the entire conservative movement, it seems. You're honestly the only one I'm readily aware of who's forcefully, sincerely denounced the "bad craziness" in all its forms.

161 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #154 Obdicut

re: #145 Guanxi88


Could you define 'null entity', by the way, while you're throwing the phrase around?

Sure, a null entity is a posited place-holder, an empty set, as it were, category without characteristics; quantity without quality; the hyle of ancient Greek metaphysics.

162 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:46:24pm

re: #158 rurality

If he is difficult to figure out or a null entity, why do people keep trying to fill the void with negative, duplicitous motivations? Why is that the reflexive option?

Is it likely that an empty vessel would be filled with anything of which you approved if you were not the one filling it?

163 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:47:47pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

Okay. So you expect to actually be listened to when you say that Palin and Obama both have no characteristics to them?

Does Obama have the characteristic of supporting stem-cell research?

164 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:48:07pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

Sure, a null entity is a posited place-holder, an empty set, as it were, category without characteristics; quantity without quality; the hyle of ancient Greek metaphysics.

There's nothing "there" there?

165 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:48:44pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

Sure, a null entity is a posited place-holder, an empty set, as it were, category without characteristics; quantity without quality; the hyle of ancient Greek metaphysics.

As opposed to the chyle of ancient Greek medicine.

166 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #160 publicityStunted

You're honestly the only one

Meaning, the only prominent/famous one I'm aware of.

167 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:49:08pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

Seems the ad was made by a guy named Ray Griggs...
Health Reform Opponents: "I Guess I'm Racist"

The video appears to be the work of filmmaker Ray Griggs, who has released a documentary called "I Want Your Money." Introducing the spot on his Web page, Griggs writes that "Americans have every right to speak out against the ruinous direction our nation is currently heading without being labeled a racist."

Griggs calls the video a "national commercial," though it is not clear whether it has run on television. According to a posting on the conservative Web site Free Republic, it has appeared on Fox News.

168 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:50:24pm

re: #115 Guanxi88

it was "revealed" in any and every sermon or publication of Wright's church on the subject of Israel, the Palestinians, and Jews in general.

What a perfect example of an absurd absolutist know-it-all-ism. Seriously now, "any and every," playing at having such certainty regarding a subject you cannot possibly have such complete knowledge of is just rhetorical nonsense.

169 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:50:32pm

re: #162 Guanxi88

to me, an empty vessel is an empty vessel. Projecting any ideas that it contains one thing vs. another, reflects more my content and does not change the empty state of the vessel.

170 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:50:40pm

re: #145 Guanxi88
I think Wright means as much to Obama as Alinsky does. Namely, nothing at all.

Which makes the man all the more difficult to figure out, then, and gives credence to my conviction that he's a null entity.

Let me try to recap the arguments you've made here:

1. Obama's close intense association with Wright is evidence that something sinister is afoot!
and
2. Obama's failure to have a close intense association with Wright is even more evidence that there's something sinister afoot!

That about cover it?

171 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:51:53pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

Something really, really stinks about that commercial. I'd love to know who's behind it -- I suspect it comes from an extremist organization, like Paulians or Birchers.

172 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:52:21pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Okay. So you expect to actually be listened to when you say that Palin and Obama both have no characteristics to them?

Does Obama have the characteristic of supporting stem-cell research?

Yes, and he also has the characteristics of mass, extension and volume. These are trivial and largely incidental.

He was not elected on the basis of stem-cell research being funded by federal research dollars; he was not elected in recognition of his skill and acumen as a scholar and teacher of constitutional law; he was not elected on the basis of his work as a community organizer.

He WAS elected because he put together a very sophisticated marketing campaign that succeeded in presenting him as more or less everything a person could want in a leader. Broad, expansive rhetoric, with surprisingly little content. He was, though, exactly like what his constituency wanted to see.

Palin is a clumsier, more provincial version of the same thing. her experience, her background, all of it is nothing more than the necessary conditions to create an aura of an of-and-for-the-people about her. Pin her down on specifics, ask for guidance or direction one way or the other, and you hear a vaguely Christian version of hope-and-change.

173 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:52:35pm

re: #169 rurality

to me, an empty vessel is an empty vessel. Projecting any ideas that it contains one thing vs. another, reflects more my content and does not change the empty state of the vessel.

It reflects something about you and your propensity to interpret events, just like the glass half full/half empty question

174 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:52:48pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

The guy at the 1:00 min mark looks really sad.

175 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:52:57pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

Mainstreaming racism (Via Breitbart)...
‘I Guess I’m a Racist’: What Really Motivates Opponents of ObamaCare?

Curiously there's no mention of who is funding the ad.

re: #171 Charles

Something really, really stinks about that commercial. I'd love to know who's behind it -- I suspect it comes from an extremist organization, like Paulians or Birchers.

Here's the web page for that video:

[Link: iwantyourmoney.net...]

His Twitter account:

[Link: twitter.com...]

176 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:53:29pm

Completely off topic: I'm going to boldly predict that Avatar will suck royally. I've seen the previews; I've read the plot summaries. I am less than impressed by both.In fact, I sort of feel like gagging. A few hours worth of incredibly expensive eye candy, with a message that South Park has already brilliantly parodied as Dances With Smurfs: the Evil American (well, world) Military oppresses innocent, peace loving Indians Avatars Smurfs Aliens People Just Like Us, But Better And With Tails. And Blue.

I also have no doubt that it will rake in vast boatloads of money, helped along by the lack of any serious competition at the box office over the holidays.

177 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:54:26pm

re: #170 iceweasel

And, don't forget that 'any' and 'every' time Wright opened his mouth, published, it was all anti-Israel all the time. I also assume that Obama attended 'every' sermon and read 'any' and all of Wright's writings.

178 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:54:32pm

re: #170 iceweasel

I think Wright means as much to Obama as Alinsky does. Namely, nothing at all.

Let me try to recap the arguments you've made here:

1. Obama's close intense association with Wright is evidence that something sinister is afoot!
and
2. Obama's failure to have a close intense association with Wright is even more evidence that there's something sinister afoot!

That about cover it?

Yep, that's about it. He's either in league with highly questionable folk, or these associations mean nothing to the man, and were simply the instrument to his rise to power, and so reveal nothing about him at all.

(How's Brittania? We had a bit of a cold snap here in TX. The fog and such made me actually wonder if your location, with a few mesquite bushes and the odd armadillo, might not resemble my locale.)

179 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:55:34pm

re: #171 Charles

Something really, really stinks about that commercial. I'd love to know who's behind it -- I suspect it comes from an extremist organization, like Paulians or Birchers.

One of the things that stinks about it is the notion that America has a health-care system.

180 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:56:35pm

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

What a perfect example of an absurd absolutist know-it-all-ism. Seriously now, "any and every," playing at having such certainty regarding a subject you cannot possibly have such complete knowledge of is just rhetorical nonsense.

Perhaps, then, you could oblige me by correcting my misapprehension of the tone and tenor of the esteemed Rev. Wright's sermons and publications on the subjects under advisement? I am sure you would be able to locate a counter-example to prove me the absurd absolutist know-it-all you are so certain I am.

181 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:56:38pm

re: #175 Gus 802

Here's the web page for that video:

[Link: iwantyourmoney.net...]

His Twitter account:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Not a Bircher, but definitely a wacko. Links frequently to this Twitter account: Resist Tyranny

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:56:41pm

re: #1 Ben Hur

A-Malek?

It is a rather suggestive name...

183 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:57:50pm

re: #172 Guanxi88

Obama stated very clearly, very often, that he was going to raise taxes on those making over $250,000. He stated very often that he wanted to draw down in Iraq and shift to Afghanistan. He made a lot of very clear, very definite statements.

Maybe this page could help you out:

Obama campaign promises kept'

Your accusation against Obama could literally be made against any politician. It's just your own subjective feeling that any time Obama does something or says something, it's not real. That is not an argument, it's just an assertion that you really, really don't like Obama.

184 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:57:52pm

All of the guilt by association is silly. You cannot have a political campaign or career without associating with a wide range of "advisors" and "experts" vetted or not.

I question President Obama and Pundit Palin's judgement for lots of reasons beyond who was and is associated with their campaigns and cabinets.

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:57:59pm

re: #12 Ben Hur

Nixon saved Israel.

I'm sure he didn't feel good about it, though.
/

186 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:58:56pm

re: #181 Charles

Not a Bircher, but definitely a wacko. Links frequently to this Twitter account: Resist Tyranny

I noticed that.

Here's his Facebook page. He has another one. You can see some Tea Party photos and others in the "Photos" page.

187 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:59:30pm

re: #178 Guanxi88

Yep, that's about it. He's either in league with highly questionable folk, or these associations mean nothing to the man, and were simply the instrument to his rise to power, and so reveal nothing about him at all.



Which proves that you've set up a no-win situation for Obama; there is literally nothing he could say or do that you would be willing to accord a neutral (let alone positive) interpretation.

(How's Brittania? We had a bit of a cold snap here in TX. The fog and such made me actually wonder if your location, with a few mesquite bushes and the odd armadillo, might not resemble my locale.)

You had fog? I didn't realise you'd ever get fog in Texas! We had some the other day that was intense. Here's an actual conversation I had with Jimmah a couple of hours ago:

iceweasel: "My god, is that fog again out there?"
Jimmah: "Nae, it's just darkness."

No difference visually.

188 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #184 DaddyG

For Palin to be a pundit she would have to be able to write and speak on her own.

She is a mouthpiece.

189 funky chicken  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:00:28pm

re: #104 iceweasel

For heaven's sakes. You have a prison full of people who make Scott Roeder look like a religious moderate. It's amazing that more of them haven't killed themselves, either in mass suicide waves or in despair that the "Great Satan" hasn't been humbled.

Too bad we won't luck out and somehow convince Roeder and that Paul Hill freak to kill themselves too.

The report is heavily redacted because GTMO has lots of top secret stuff going on, and I'm sure they want to keep the method of suicide secret.

190 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:01:08pm

re: #186 Gus 802

I noticed that.

Here's his Facebook page. He has another one. You can see some Tea Party photos and others in the "Photos" page.

He has an IMDB page, and so does the movie.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #31 darthstar

Let's not forget what Sarah Palin said in response to the Israeli-Palestinian situation just a week or so ago about "Jews flocking to Israel"...she's an end-timer, one of those nuts who thinks that, once all the Jews are corraled inside Israel, the "Great Suck" will happen (Jesus comes with a giant hoover and pulls all the faithful off the planet leaving the heathens around to fight over their left-behind property).

Maybe she knows Malek better than we give her credit for.

Eh, doubt it. I think Malek is an old-fashioned paranoid apparatchik, and Sarah is a newfangled geopolito-evangelical. They may find a use for one another, but they're not on the same page.

192 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:12pm

re: #120 Summer

Thanks for your feedback. You make some good points, and I think there is some heft to your argument. But I still don't think it explains everything. The fact is that whenever Hitchens writes about the history of Israel's founding, he pulls it right out of the Marxist playbook. He should be past this by now, but he keeps peddling it. Also, a couple of years ago I saw him say that the U.S. military should be sent into the West Bank to do battle with the Israeli military. He was hostile, and it was clear his old prejudices were still there.

And of course, his defence of David Irving and his on again off again friendship with him at the time, which lead him to attack Irving's critics, was simply bizarre.

Hitchens is a great writer and a true individualist, but I have trouble taking him seriously when it comes to Jews. He always writes from the gut, and sometimes it seems that his opinions change with how intoxicated he is.

193 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:32pm

re: #176 SixDegrees

Completely off topic: I'm going to boldly predict that Avatar will suck royally. I've seen the previews; I've read the plot summaries. I am less than impressed by both.In fact, I sort of feel like gagging. A few hours worth of incredibly expensive eye candy, with a message that South Park has already brilliantly parodied as Dances With Smurfs: the Evil American (well, world) Military oppresses innocent, peace loving Indians Avatars Smurfs Aliens People Just Like Us, But Better And With Tails. And Blue.

Is there something wrong with being Blue?

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:58pm

re: #40 Nim Chimpsky

#22 And who could forget the execrable Reverend Wright? Mr. Obama's association - even reverence - for an America-hating. misogynistic Jew hater didn't seem to hurt his campaign. There are plenty of anti-Semites to go around on both the left and on the right.

So, it won't hurt her because her followers--the same followers who screamed about Ayers to the high heavens--won't care about this. Does that make it OK?

195 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:59pm

re: #183 Obdicut

Obama stated very clearly, very often, that he was going to raise taxes on those making over $250,000. He stated very often that he wanted to draw down in Iraq and shift to Afghanistan. He made a lot of very clear, very definite statements.

Maybe this page could help you out:

Obama campaign promises kept'

Your accusation against Obama could literally be made against any politician. It's just your own subjective feeling that any time Obama does something or says something, it's not real. That is not an argument, it's just an assertion that you really, really don't like Obama.

Nobody says he's not doing things. We see him every day at it.

The point is, he was the perfect embodiment of the triumph of packaging. No more, no less. HRC, though I would never have voted for her, struck me as far more shrewd and informed than BHO. She wasn't, though, a charismatic rock-star. She would never have seen cheering throngs of wild-eyed hopeful types, weeping and falling out at her rallies. To compare her to the great figures of history would have been patently absurd. BHO, though, had all these things going for him.

SO, of course he's doing things, some of which, even, seem like good ideas. Point is, though, and we see this in the Afghan decision-making, that the style was more important for him. His decision (and speech) announcing his Solomonic decision on the Afghan conflict was identical in form and content to his statements on the subject when he first took up the issue in March.

196 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:04:05pm

re: #192 davesax

But I still don't think it explains everything. The fact is that whenever Hitchens writes about the history of Israel's founding, he pulls it right out of the Marxist playbook.

What does Marxism have to do with Israel's founding?

Honestly curious.

197 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:04:24pm

re: #190 wrenchwench

He has an IMDB page, and so does the movie.

One of the funders for the video KT posted:

The Council's board includes Kim Bengard, whose It Takes a Family Foundation gave the Family Research Council $185,000 in recent years. Bengard, who used to co-own an auto parts company, also helps lead Family Action PAC.

198 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:04:29pm

re: #189 funky chicken

For heaven's sakes. You have a prison full of people who make Scott Roeder look like a religious moderate. It's amazing that more of them haven't killed themselves, either in mass suicide waves or in despair that the "Great Satan" hasn't been humbled.

Too bad we won't luck out and somehow convince Roeder and that Paul Hill freak to kill themselves too.

The report is heavily redacted because GTMO has lots of top secret stuff going on, and I'm sure they want to keep the method of suicide secret.

It's not the suicides that are necessarily problematic; all institutions (psychiatric hospitals, prisons) inevitably have some attempts and some will always manage to be successful, I suspect, no matter how closely you watch them. (Desperate people do desperate things).
The issue involves the coverup, and especially the fear that they were not suicides.

The new study exposes how the NCIS report purports that all three prisoners on the prison's Alpha Block did the following to commit suicide:

• Braided a noose by tearing up their sheets and/or clothing.
• Made mannequins of themselves so it would appear to the guards they were asleep in their cells.
• Hung sheets to block the view into the cells.
• Stuffed rags down their own throats well past a point which would have induced involuntary gagging.
• Tied their own feet together.
• Tied their own hands together.
• Hung the noose from the metal mesh of the cell wall and/or ceiling.
• Climbed up on to the sink, put the noose around their necks and release their weight, resulting in death by strangulation.

The study also notes that there has never been any explanation of how the three bodies could have hung in the cells, undiscovered, for at least two hours, when the cells were supposed to be under constant supervision by roving guards and video cameras.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:04:49pm

re: #41 recusancy

She had a governorship that she quit. What makes you think she wants anything other then the presidency and/or money.

Yeah. One smart way of preparing for a presidential run is to complete a term as the governor of someplace.

200 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:05:04pm

re: #185 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure he didn't feel good about it, though.
/

I don't know how he felt. He was an anti-Semite who saved Israel. So much so that it may not be there today hadn't it been for him. He was more concerned with communism then and wanted a foothold nearby. He did one thing right.

Palin is no where near as powerful as Nixon so though this anti-Semitic connection is not surprising coming from her, I hinted at it myself last year and was ripped to shreds for it, I don't think it's going to effect much. Most people know who she is by now.

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:18pm

re: #70 lightspeed

This should be devastating to her image. Somehow, I don't think it will be. Anti-semitism seems to be the one thing that is tolerated by both the left and the right.

And it was Nixon...

202 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:44pm

re: #195 Guanxi88

Your argument could be literally made about any politician. It has nothing about it particular to Obama in any way. Furthermore, you seem to think you can somehow understand what's going on inside Obama's mind, which is a little weird.

Your argument is now that since Obama is inspirational and was marketed well, that's all he is. That is not an argument that makes any sense.

203 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:54pm

re: #193 Sharmuta

Is there something wrong with being Blue?

Not at all. But I think there's something terribly wrong with wrapping a cliche that's been told a thousand times before in a few hundred million dollars worth of CGI and calling it "new".

204 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:09pm

re: #171 Charles

It's very creepy to see people eager to embrace the racist label.

205 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:19pm

re: #198 iceweasel

I'm not 110% sure but I don't think they're allowed to have cameras trained on their sleeping areas. OTOH, anything they can classify as a "common area" is fair game for cameras.

206 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:33pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

Funders:

Kim Bengard

Kim Bengard lives in Orange County, CA with her husband of 30 years. She is a mother of four adult children and grandmother of two boys. She currently serves on the Family Research Council Board and on The Family Action PAC Board as Co-Chair of Membership. Along with her husband Tom, she co-founded the “It Takes a Family Foundation” in 1996. Mrs. Bengard has served on and supported Proposition 22, the California Restoration Project for Pastors, as well as several other pro-family and pro-life causes. She was Co-Owner of Trim Master Inc. and along with her husband was named Entrepreneur of the Year in 1995.

Tom Bengard

Tom Bengard lives in Orange County, CA with his wife of 30 years. He is a father of four adult children and grandfather of two boys. He currently serves on the Family Action PAC Board as part of the Membership committee. Along with his wife Kim, he co-founded the “It Takes a Family Foundation” in 1996. Mr. Bengard has supported many pro-life and pro-family causes. He was the Co-Owner of Trim Master Inc. and along with his wife was named Entrepreneur of the Year in 1995. He is now the owner of Bengard Manufacturing group.

207 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:22pm

re: #203 SixDegrees

Not at all. But I think there's something terribly wrong with wrapping a cliche that's been told a thousand times before in a few hundred million dollars worth of CGI and calling it "new".

every original story has been told via Hollywood...jus sayin

208 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:09:25pm

re: #196 Obdicut

The hostile tone of much leftist Anti-Zionism has its roots in the old Soviet Union, where Zionism presented as a evil, colonialist entity.

Walter Lacquer's Changing Face of AntiSemitism talks about this, as well as Dying for Jerusalem.

209 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:14pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

And it was Nixon...

Frankly, I don't think the anti-semitism thing is gonna hunt. It's too far in the past. Unless there's been something more recent to reinforce it, it's too remote and too easily dismissed.

Malek's position as the quintessential Washington insider, however, is much harder to excuse from Palin's position as the crusader against that very thing, the small-town outsider untainted by the smarm and rot of the Beltway.

210 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:44pm

re: #207 albusteve

every original story has been told via Hollywood...jus sayin

Sometimes it work. Other times...not so much. For me, this is looking like the latter.

211 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:44pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

The forced equivalency of Palin with Obama is hilarious and not even remotely true.

Once Palin starts teaching at a respected university, let's talk.

Teaching? Hell once Palin actually graduates with a real degree from a serious academic institution we should have a talk. And I don't mean the honorary Juris Doctorate degree she will be getting from Oral Roberts University any day now.

212 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:29pm

re: #205 RogueOne

I'm not 110% sure but I don't think they're allowed to have cameras trained on their sleeping areas. OTOH, anything they can classify as a "common area" is fair game for cameras.

I don't think that's true-- from the study:

The study also notes that there has never been any explanation of how the three bodies could have hung in the cells, undiscovered, for at least two hours, when the cells were supposed to be under constant supervision by roving guards and video cameras.

I haven't read the 58 page report yet myself though, just the article link.

213 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:15pm

re: #211 Petero1818

Teaching? Hell once Palin actually graduates with a real degree from a serious academic institution we should have a talk. And I don't mean the honorary Juris Doctorate degree she will be getting from Oral Roberts University any day now.

Ha! She can practice law in Sunday school.

214 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #208 davesax

Okay. What does that have to do with Marxism?

Given that a lot of the early Jewish immigrants to Israel were "labor Zionists", I can't really tell what you're talking about.

What do you mean by 'Marxist playbook'?

215 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:17:25pm

re: #196 Obdicut

What does Marxism have to do with Israel's founding?

Honestly curious.

Some of the early Zionist founders were Marxist.

Their descendants, today, are "post-Zionist"

216 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:18:20pm

re: #192 davesax

I agree with that, I just think in general he's fairly consistent - and not always in the way that people would expect.

For instance, he doesn't bemoan when Hamas leaders are blown up by Israel in acts of assassination. He calls Hamas a band of murderers and thugs and he absolutely hates them. He doesn't approve of Israel's occupation of some of the Palestinians, but he also doesn't approve of the Palestinian leadership either.

He's kind of torn from what I can see, honestly. I do also agree that sometimes he does write from the gut or that sometimes he pulls out lines from the Marxist playbook. Then again, he grew up that way and it's probably hard for him to overcome that. =)

The fact is, though, that Hitchens never agrees completely with any country or movement. He always has something to criticize with vitriol. And again, I think his anti-Zionism is mostly based on ideological premises where he wishes we would move beyond religious identities. I just happen to think that isn't practical, but he's not always practical in his analysis, just puritanical. =)

But even though I disagree completely with Hitchens on this matter, I think he's brilliant to read and listen to. At least he has very interesting thoughts and references to go by. =)

Also, remember that he's a Polemicist, which means he often goes a lot further than he probably really means to, just for the sheer sound of his bombastic declarations. =) And you gotta respect him for standing up to his beliefs of hating people who are Nazis and thugs etc...remember the incident this year in Lebanon where he was beaten up for it. I don't know many who would have done that so blatantly. Also, housing Salman Rushdie in his apartment during the height of that threat took some real balls of steel. He hasn't exactly been an armchair general when it comes to his principles. I respect that as well. =)

217 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:18:42pm

re: #214 Obdicut

Obdicut:

I answered your question and included valuable sources to read more about this.

If you want to research it - the Marxist narrative of Anti-Zionism - there's a lot written that will clarify it for you.

Labor Zionism is not anti-Zionism, obviously, so that's a different topic.

218 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:22pm

re: #31 darthstar

That's the funniest thing I read in a long time :)

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:24:42pm

re: #120 Summer

Actually, Hitchens isn't really all over the map. You have to understand his basic philosophy about religion and culture.

I completely disagree with him about Israel, but I understand what he's saying when he says he's anti-Zionist. It's not that he hates Jews, but he truly is a philosophical purist at times. He hates religion with a passion but he loves the cultural identity of Jews and others, as most do on the left. He also hates anything to do with repressing anyone else - no matter whom they are.

Strictly speaking, he's a complete idealist on the issue. When you hear him talk about Israel acting militarily against terrorists, he sounds both for and against it - because he hates the Hamas and everything they stand for except the independence part.

Again, I disagree with him on some basic issues of Israel - I think Israel is a necessity, and he wishes humanity would move beyond anything to do with religion. I guess I'm just more practical on the matter and he's more idealistic. But he doesn't support terrorism on any level and abhors people who use it. Especially when it comes to religiously motivated terrorism.

I can safely say though that Hitchens is not an anti-semite. Most people who are against Israel are, but he is one of the incredibly rare exceptions where you know he's coming from a completely different philosophical base.

At least that's what I've learned from reading him over the years. =)

I have to say, I think of Stokeley Carmichael's comment about the position available to women in the Black Liberation Movement--prone. People who 'love the cultural identity of the Jews' tend to not want to let the Jews determine the course of that identity.

Hitchens may not be an anti-Semite, but I'll be very surprised if his concern about opression is equally spread over all of God's children.

220 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:34pm

re: #215 Alouette

Alouette:

Good point. It's really a matter of semantic hairs.

My point is that Hitchen's presentation of Israel's history is strictly one-sided, more to the left than Benny Morris ever was. And he hasn't budged from it. During Israel's war with Hezbollah, he was contemptous of Israel's efforts to defend itself.

I stand by my assertion that I remain weary of him when it comes to Jews.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:39pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

Charles:

Do you think he just happened into that church? Do you honestly think he would have sat through that nonsense, and expressed such high praise for the man, if he was not, at the very least, sympathetic to his expressed opinions?

To argue otherwise would be to suggest he was simply exploiting Wright and his church for base political gain.

Has he enacted any Jeremiah Wright inspired policies? No, so far as I can tell, he has not. Has Palin proposed firing Jews from the Department of Labor?

Palin's pastor appears to have suggested that criticizing Bush would send you to hell. Does that balance out Wright's suggestion that it might send you to heaven?

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:26:06pm

re: #122 jaunte

Yikes indeed; even Santorum admits Palin has 'some explaining' to do.

Well, bear in mind that he's a potential rival in a presidential run.

223 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:26:47pm

re: #216 Summer

Gotcha Summer. Good points. I think you sum it up really well.

224 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:28:32pm

Actually, the Bush administration did not label Gilo a settlement, nor at any time did it demand an end to all natural growth.

Sure, Obama hasn't really "done" anything about it, but he's kept the focus on the settlements as the main obstacle towards peace.

225 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:55pm

I actually don't think Hitchens is an anti-Semite.

I think he can't stand anyone...

226 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:30:40pm

re: #196 Obdicut

What does Marxism have to do with Israel's founding?

Honestly curious.

Not that you're speaking to me, but Jews coming out of Europe were strongly into the socialist model. How and why the Kibbutz' were formed and they actually worked for a long period of time until the world started growing up around them. The children didn't want a part of it anymore. Many Jews also lost the spirituality (God) out of their religion. My grandpa, a survivor, always said he couldn't believe in a God who made a man like Hitler, but yet he always said the prayers at ever family service/event, read all the Jewish papers, talked politics incessantly. It was political/lifestyle thing. So there was as dichtomy there, but he really was an agnostic.

I don't know if davesax meant the same thing.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:29pm

re: #142 Lawrence Schmerel

I doubt Sarah Palin is even serious about running for the presidency with an intention of winning it. I suspect she is actually more concerned about turning her fame into cash.

If you run for President, you can lose. And there are people you have to answer to. And routines, and paperwork, and stuff you have to do. And it's all about policy and stuff, which is totally boring.

If you're a pundit, you answer to no one but your publisher, and if you sell big enough, they have to fall in line. You do what you like. And it's all abour thoughts and ideas and your amazing coolness, which is endlessly fascinating.

I know what I'd pick.

228 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:37pm

re: #224 davesax

Actually, the Bush administration did not label Gilo a settlement, nor at any time did it demand an end to all natural growth.

Sure, Obama hasn't really "done" anything about it, but he's kept the focus on the settlements as the main obstacle towards peace.

Agreed. It doesn't make me happy to say it, because I like Obama, but he's been much harder on Israel than the Bush administration even though the Bush admin was pretty non-effective. Bush even supported and praised the Pally elections and lots of really bizarre stuff.

229 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:34:38pm

I always always ALWAYS ALWAYS get into a thread when a new thread pops up. Arrghhh...

230 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:34:38pm

re: #93 Charles

Obama's policies toward Israel seem no different than the past 4 or 5 administrations' policies. He talks about Israel ceasing the settlements, just like George Bush did, and then takes no real action to stop it. He has maintained the US policy of looking the other way on Israel's nuclear weapons. And he has continued US military supplies to Israel.


Obama not only defamed Israel in his Cairo-speech, equalized the Shoa and the situation of the palestinians and aggressively attacked the status of Jerusalem as Israel's capitol [1], he is also appeasing Iran in a way, that George W. Bush would never do (for example, reaching out the hands to the Islamic regime and cutting aids for iranian opposition-groups in the middle of a revolution).

I don't know if Obama shares Wright's views, if he does, he is clever enough to not openly talk about them in his country, where an overwhelmingy majority strongly rejects anti-semitism.

But he is definitely the most anti-Israel-president since Jimmy Carter. His foreign advisors are people like Zbigniew Brzeziński, Samantha Power (who want the USA to lead a ground invasion of Israel) or the Hamas-friend Robert Malley.

Even though I don't agreed with all of President Bush's policies regarding Israel - he was a friend of Israel. Obama is not.

[1] See here:

Apologists for the Obama administration have been arguing that there is no real difference between his stand opposing Jewish settlements and that of George W. Bush. There was some truth to this when it came to settlements in the West Bank, though this assertion ignores the fact that the Bush administration publicly acknowledged that some of the larger settlement blocs would be retained by Israel in any peace agreement and that building within them was not really an issue. But even the most ardent fans of Obama must understand that there is a major difference between the two presidents when it comes to Jerusalem. Granted, the United States has never formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital or formally accepted the unification of the city that was made possible by the Six-Day War. As much as the U.S. routinely protested settlement-building in the West Bank, it never made a stink about building homes in Jerusalem. And that’s where Obama parts company with his predecessors.

231 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:33pm

Marjorie:

What I mean is that there was clearly a movement that was linked to the Soviet Union that was outspokenly anti-Zionist.

Yes, the early zionist had Marxist leanings, but they were still Zionists.

I don't know much about how to distinguish the degredations, etc. all I know is that today's "post Zionist historians" are often linked to Marxists of the past. I'm not qualified to expound on this any further. I have a feeling the meaning behind the termonoligy changes over time.

232 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:36:56pm

re: #231 davesax

Marjorie:

What I mean is that there was clearly a movement that was linked to the Soviet Union that was outspokenly anti-Zionist.

Yes, the early zionist had Marxist leanings, but they were still Zionists.

I don't know much about how to distinguish the degredations, etc. all I know is that today's "post Zionist historians" are often linked to Marxists of the past. I'm not qualified to expound on this any further. I have a feeling the meaning behind the termonoligy changes over time.

Ah gotcha.

Nevermind!

-Emily Latella-

233 davesax  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #230 gegenkritik

I think Charles is talking about policy vs. words.

234 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:45:39pm

re: #225 davesax

I actually don't think Hitchens is an anti-Semite.

I think he can't stand anyone...

lol, updinged. =)

235 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:48:11pm

I posted this maybe a year ago about Bush and Israel.

1. Bush visited Israel only once, January 2008, at the end of his term. He visited Jordan, Egypt and Qatar in 2003 and Jordan again in 2006.

2. First president to call for the existence of a "Palestinian" state, despite Sharon's reservations. Carter didn't even do that.

3. Bush never acknowledged Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel even after our Congress did, a campaign promise btw.

4. Influencing Sharon to abandon the West Bank settlements.

5. Encouraging Hamas elections.

6. Putting in European monitors at the Philadelphi corridor despite Israel's objections. Sharon wanted American soldiers and Bush refused. The border was eventually breached and terrorist flooded into Egypt (if you recall that big mess)

7. Acceptance of Baker's Iraqi Study Group report calling for a 2 state solution, returning the Golan Heights to Syria, and pulling back to the 1967 borders.

8. Warning Sharon not to attack the Arabs after they attacked Israel.

9. Condi's many visits with Abbas.

10. Millions promised to the Palestinians of which Congress refused to approve.

11. Pressuring Israel to adhere to the "Road Map" by bypassing the first clause that demands the Arabs stop the violence.

236 Summer Seale  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:48:49pm

re: #226 marjoriemoon

Not that you're speaking to me, but Jews coming out of Europe were strongly into the socialist model. How and why the Kibbutz' were formed and they actually worked for a long period of time until the world started growing up around them. The children didn't want a part of it anymore. Many Jews also lost the spirituality (God) out of their religion. My grandpa, a survivor, always said he couldn't believe in a God who made a man like Hitler, but yet he always said the prayers at ever family service/event, read all the Jewish papers, talked politics incessantly. It was political/lifestyle thing. So there was as dichtomy there, but he really was an agnostic.

I don't know if davesax meant the same thing.

Most Jews that I know are actually the same way. The really true religious component of the Jewish population is fairly small overall. Most Jews I know are very atheist in terms of what they think is out there, but culturally Jewish. It's just part of their natural identity. Or at the very most, they tend to be very agnostic in their actual beliefs about there being a God.

237 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:26pm

re: #49 brookly red

Sarah please keep away from
The Modern Whig Party.

238 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:40pm

re: #236 Summer

Most Jews that I know are actually the same way. The really true religious component of the Jewish population is fairly small overall. Most Jews I know are very atheist in terms of what they think is out there, but culturally Jewish. It's just part of their natural identity. Or at the very most, they tend to be very agnostic in their actual beliefs about there being a God.

Judaism is an odd religion. You can be an agnostic Jew and it be completely acceptable. Yes, culturally Jewish. I was raised this way, although I had a religious education. I think most of us, Jewish or not, tend to gravitate to religion moreso as we age anyway.

For me, I have friends and relatives in a mixed bag, both secular and conservative/Orthodox hehe Actually the reform synagogues are becoming much more religious.

239 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:08:42pm

re: #115 Guanxi88

"Once it was revealed" should have read "once it became politically expedient to do so"; it was "revealed" in any and every sermon or publication of Wright's church on the subject of Israel, the Palestinians, and Jews in general.

This is absolute total BS. When the whole Wright issue came up I still hadn't decided who to support. So I went and read some of his sermons.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

[Link: ac360.blogs.cnn.com...]
There's another one that is just terrific, sorry I couldn't find it right now. But obviously you have not bothered to do any elementary research.

240 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:19:11pm

re: #150 Cato the Elder

I read Saul Alinsky once. What does that make me?

I've read Alinsky more then once, no telling what that makes me. I've gotten a big kick out of the people that have called him names like commie. Too bad they haven't taken the time to read him for themselves.

241 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:24:39pm

re: #230 gegenkritik

But he is definitely the most anti-Israel-president since Jimmy Carter. His foreign advisors are people like Zbigniew Brzeziński, Samantha Power (who want the USA to lead a ground invasion of Israel) or the Hamas-friend Robert Malley.

Neither Brzezinski nor Malley are Obama advisers.

And before you repeat that story about Samantha Power, maybe you should read this: Obama's top adviser says does not believe in imposing a peace settlement.

242 simoom  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:36:53pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

It's very creepy to see people eager to embrace the racist label.

Yeah, super creepy.

Beyond that, the maddening thing about white racial grievance complaints like this ad embodies ("I'm being horribly oppressed by minorities using the Race Card!") is that in reality it's these protestations of the race card and reverse discrimination that actually resonate with the majority of Americans.

Back during the campaign there were many polls on how the electorate responded to various racial complaints (for example brought in some reporter's column) or counter complaints of the opposite (like when the McCain campaign reference the OJ trial with, "they're dealing the Race Card from the bottom of the deck.") As far as I saw, the polling in these racial dust-ups was always spectacularly negative for Obama, with even minorities often splitting on the question. I'd imagine that's why Obama and his team always tried to their best to avoid that political third rail.

Unlike what this ad seems to imply, that racial bias accusations are somehow an effective tool to unfairly win a political debate, you have to imagine that whenever you have someone like President Carter making the statement he did, whether it's true or not, Obama's allies cringe while opposition strategists smile at their good fortune.

243 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:42:22pm

re: #241 Charles

It seems that Malley isn't Obama's advisor anymore (!). What about the israel-hater Brzeziński? You have any sources for your claim that he isn't an advisor for Obama anymore?

And by the way: the article about Power you linked to does not really support the view that Obama and Power are friends of Israel. Far from it.

244 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:56:37pm

re: #243 gegenkritik

It seems that Malley isn't Obama's advisor anymore (!). What about the israel-hater Brzeziński? You have any sources for your claim that he isn't an advisor for Obama anymore?

Brzezinski plays no role in the Obama administration.

245 garhighway  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:07:13pm

Guanxi88 says:

"The point is, he was the perfect embodiment of the triumph of packaging. No more, no less. HRC, though I would never have voted for her, struck me as far more shrewd and informed than BHO. She wasn't, though, a charismatic rock-star. She would never have seen cheering throngs of wild-eyed hopeful types, weeping and falling out at her rallies. To compare her to the great figures of history would have been patently absurd. BHO, though, had all these things going for him.

SO, of course he's doing things, some of which, even, seem like good ideas. Point is, though, and we see this in the Afghan decision-making, that the style was more important for him. His decision (and speech) announcing his Solomonic decision on the Afghan conflict was identical in form and content to his statements on the subject when he first took up the issue in March."

Huh? His objection to BHO isn't that BHO has done things or stood for things, it's that as he articulated his positions during the campaign people liked him. Alot. And that is somehow bad.

And Exhibit A seems to be that BHO was consistent from March to November on Afganistan. Like public officials being consistent is a bad thing.

The campaign I remember had BHO talking about issues a lot. Middle class tax cut (and rolling back the Bush top bracket cuts), universal health care, conducting a foreign policy based on what is good in our nature, the differing characters of the Iraq and Afghan wars, all of those (and more) were there. But because he was articulate, drew large crowds and was (gasp!) popular, all of that is for naught?

Buddy, something might be bothering you about BHO, but you haven't yet said what it REALLY is, because what you HAVE said makes zero sense.

246 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:17:23pm

re: #244 Charles
Ok, thanks. Good to see that Obama Administration is distancing at least from people like Brzeziński, who want to attack Israeli planes.
And it is also good, that foreign-advisors like Samantha Power have to relativize their anti-Israel statements because her anti-semitism was too obvious.

And what about Gilo? What about Obama equalizing the Shoa with the situation of the Palestinanians? What about cutting the aids for Iranian opposition groups? What about his appeasement to the Mullahs, waiting for their nuclear bomb?

Sorry to disappoint you Charles, but Bush was much more friendly towards Israel than Obama is.

247 captdiggs  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:24:18pm

re: #244 Charles

Brzezinski plays no role in the Obama administration.

Obama initially chose all those people as advisors.
Either he had no idea what their positions were at time he chose them, or he knew and then dumped them when they became political liabilities.

As far as Samanthat Power, well, you had it correct previously

Obama Adviser Samantha Power Wanted to Invade Israel
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

248 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:40:23pm

re: #246 gegenkritik

What about Obama equalizing the Shoa with the situation of the Palestinanians?

This is a complete distortion of what he said in the Cairo speech. We went over and over this at the time. It's false. He did not do that.

What about cutting the aids for Iranian opposition groups?

Are you aware that many Iranian opposition groups are IN FAVOR of this move? When they take funds from the US, they're putting a big target on their backs, and giving the regime an excuse to crack down on them as "US Spies."

What about his appeasement to the Mullahs, waiting for their nuclear bomb?

Excuse me, but exactly what did George W. Bush do about the Iranians?

Obama's stance toward Iran has hardened considerably in recent months, and I've seen his advisers (real ones, not the phony ones you dug up) discussing the possibility of military action. This drama is not finished playing out.

249 captdiggs  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:48:41pm

re: #248 Charles

Obama's stance toward Iran has hardened considerably in recent months, and I've seen his advisers (real ones, not the phony ones you dug up) discussing the possibility of military action. This drama is not finished playing out.


I hope you're right. Iran is going to be the biggest test of his presidency.

250 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:50:11pm

re: #66 bosforus

Love LGF..I learn so many new things today.

251 lemonslice  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:59:15pm

Glad to see Hitchen write about this

252 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:59:30pm
We went over and over this at the time. It's false. He did not do that.


Your interpretation. And I think you are wrong.

When they take funds from the US, they're putting a big target on their backs, and giving the regime an excuse to crack down on them as "US Spies."


The regime does not need any facts to blame the West/USA/Israel - they are blaming them anyway.

Are you aware that many Iranian opposition groups are IN FAVOR of this move?


Yes, I know these people. Mohssen Sazegara, Bahman Nirumand, Navid Kermani, Katajun Amirpur, Shirin Ebadi and so on. These "oppositionists" don't really like the Mullah-regime, but they really hate the USA/West and want a reformed authoritarian Iran to be still an enemy of the West.
Of course, those people are happy about Obama cutting the aid for the real opposition groups.

Excuse me, but exactly what did George W. Bush do about the Iranians?


Many of the aid for opposition-groups were initiated by the Bush Administration. Bush would not have allowed the massacre of Iranians at Camp Ashraf (he promised to defend them, Obama withdraw the troops, allowing the Iraqis to murder unarmed Iranians).
And most important: Bush would never recognize the Mullahregime like Obama did:

"I have made it clear that the United States of America wants to move beyond this past, and seeks a relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran based upon mutual interests and mutual respect. We do not interfere in Iran’s internal affairs."

Is this his "hardened stance on Iran" you are talking about?

By the way: the Iranians in Iran know very well that Obama is betraying them:

("Obama, either with us or with them [the Mullahs]!")

253 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:01:34pm

re: #176 SixDegrees

But it may suck but I still want to see it. Cameron has been a great action director so I expect action, depth of story? Not so much. He's never been famous for that one

254 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:08:50pm
When they take funds from the US, they're putting a big target on their backs, and giving the regime an excuse to crack down on them as "US Spies."


Obama cut the aid for an Iranian human rights organisation based in the USA.

255 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:09:24pm

re: #254 gegenkritik

Yay Newsmax! They'll help you!

256 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:16:42pm

re: #255 Obdicut
So, Newsmax lied and Obama did not cut the aid for the IHRDC? And the Boston Globe? Also part of the Anti-Obama-conspiracy?

257 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:23:04pm

re: #252 gegenkritik

Er, Charles is correct. [Link: www.rferl.org...]
From the article

ational Iranian American Council (NIAC) -- a group that represents the interests of Iranians in the United States -- that called for the U.S. aid to be cut off precisely because it "taints" dissidents as being directly supported by Washington. The result, the NIAC argued, is that the U.S. aid has sparked an even harsher crackdown on Iranian dissidents.

Sheehs they imprisoned a reporter for over 180 days due to part of being on the daily show: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

258 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:25:11pm

Why I don't rely on Newmax for anything

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

259 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:32:19pm

re: #257 limewash

No, Charles is wrong, but thanks for coming up with this and mentioning the National Iranian American Council as one of the organizations that are glad about Obama cutting the aid for opposition-groups. That's consequent, since the NIAC is one of the groups that seeks good relations between the USA and the little more "moderate" Mullahregime.

260 captdiggs  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:35:05pm

re: #257 limewash

From the article you provided.


"Atri also ridiculed the idea that U.S. funding is responsible for a recently intensified crackdown by the Iranian regime on university students, intellectuals, union leaders, reformist politicians and clerics, and other activists seeking change. He said such intimidation and repression by the government has been going on since the 1979 Islamic Revolution, regardless of any U.S. support for dissidents.

"Just this year, Iranian authorities have executed without due process over 100 people, yet none were said to be connected to U.S. democracy funds," wrote Atri, who was a leader in Daftar Tahkim Vahdat (Office for Strengthening Unity), Iran's most prominent student organization

He also took a sharp swipe at the NIAC, saying that criticism of U.S. support for Iran's democracy movement "is not defensible when made by those who have barely seen Iran, much less been a part of its struggle for freedom."

261 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:38:31pm

By the way, the NIAC is also opposing the sanctions on Iran which the US House of Representatives proposed. Really a great "opposition"-group.

262 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:40:08pm

re: #261 gegenkritik

How'd the sanctions on Iraq work out for the Iraqi people?

263 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:51:49pm

re: #262 Obdicut
I would have preferred a liberation of Iraq earlier, but I still think it was Bush's greatest deed to free Iraq. Unfortunately, his successor won't do anything similiar.

By the way: you can't compare Iraq and Iran. Not only is the Mullahregime much more dangerous, but large parts of its - well educated and connected to the world - population are openly opposing the regime.

Sanctions would show them, that the world is supporting them, that they are not forgotten. And don't undererstimate them: when there were sanctions on gasoline (Iran has not enough refineries and need to import gas) following Ahmadinejads election in 2005, Iranians in Tehran were protesting against the regime, cause they knew very well that those sanctions were not aimed on them, but the Mullahs.

264 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:03:29pm

re: #263 gegenkritik

Can you answer the question, please:

How did sanctions on Iraq work out for the Iraqi people?

265 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:06:49pm

re: #264 Obdicut
Sure, here's my answer again: "By the way: you can't compare Iraq and Iran."

Now, can I ask you a question: Do you think that the President of the United States should made friendly relationsships to the Iranian Mullahs?

266 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:08:07pm

re: #265 gegenkritik

I can compare them, though. You're refusing to answer the question, that's all.

Now, can I ask you a question: Do you think that the President of the United States should made friendly relationsships to the Iranian Mullahs?


To the extent that it leads to the downfall of the mullahs, yes.

267 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:12:43pm

re: #266 ObdicutTo the extent that it leads to the downfall of the mullahs, yes.


Friendly relationships between the USA and the Mullahregime will lead to the downfall of the Mullahs... thank you, I have no more questions.

268 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:14:46pm

re: #267 gegenkritik

To the extent that it leads to the downfall of the mullahs, yes.

Friendly relationships between the USA and the Mullahregime will lead to the downfall of the Mullahs... thank you, I have no more questions.

It depends what you mean by friendly, I suppose.

Did we have friendly relations with the Soviets?

269 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:14:54pm

re: #186 Gus 802

I noticed that.

Here's his Facebook page. He has another one. You can see some Tea Party photos and others in the "Photos" page.

If I read the FB traffic corredtly, this guy is identified as a Mad Magazine artist. (Could be a commenter--the IDs are confusing.) That's not the Mad that corrupted my youth.

270 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:17:56pm

re: #268 Obdicut
Equalizing the UdSSR and Iran is total BS in so many ways, but since I am tired, just this hint for you: Reagan spoke of an "Evil Empire", not about friendly relationships. Good night.

271 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:21:26pm

re: #270 gegenkritik

Equalizing the UdSSR and Iran is total BS in so many ways, but since I am tired, just this hint for you: Reagan spoke of an "Evil Empire", not about friendly relationships. Good night.

You are really, really bad at answering questions.

272 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:21:32pm

re: #245 garhighway

5 days and 4 comments, and we're buddies already!

What bothers me about President Obama is that he is comfortable around, and is broadly acceptable to, an entire spectrum of left and left-ish causes and personnel that are, not in the main, but certainly a good many of them, radical on one or more points.

His campaign advisors and first-wave advisors and appointees, in common with his previous political associations and even his preferred company in and immediately after his college years, evince a distinctly hard-left attitude and inclination.

I had initially believed him to be a hard leftist; the rapidity and zeal with which he tossed one comrade after another over the side convince me that he's worse than a fanatical leftist in that these convictions were, apparently, just part of the package of compromises and such that were necessary to propel him to his current position.

I have a HUGE problem with the now more or less moribund messianic air that sprung up around the man. He did not encourage or orchestrate it, but he did nothing to tamp it down, either.

I have a tremendous problem with the fact that one of the most leftist members of the Congress of the United States was able to present himself as the Pepsi Cola of American politics, and that he looks for all the world as if he's going to lose the support of the very left from which he sprung in order to avoid looking too much like them.

I hate that he dithered endlessly over Afghanistan, and yet pressed full-speed ahead on his supposed health reforms, the passage of which is so crucial as to forestall further discussion or debate, and the implementation of which will not occur until several years out.

And that's just the start of the list of my problems with President Obama.

273 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:29:38pm

Hi Charles,
I am not convinced the guy is a Jew hater. I was neither able to find anything more recent about the guy nor more consistent in his past. Perhaps he is (This would not be the first time in my life, I made a mistake).

Moreover,

Seymour D. Reich, chairman of Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations during the 1990s, said "Malek made a mistake 18 years ago when he agreed to a regrettable request by President Nixon." But he added, Malek "has taken pains to assure the Jewish community that he realizes his error and that he intended no harm. I believe he is sincere."[8]

Source: Wikipedia article on Malek.

Every good researcher has a bad article somewhere. I think this may be it. I hope I have not offended you. I will apologize if necessary. I write because I care about your success.

274 Dom  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:58:18pm

Apparently Fred is for Frederic, not Alfred. But his wife's name is Marlene A. Malek. That's as close as I could get. (Don't be evil and superstitious with it though.)

275 Dom  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #273 Stuart Leviton

Hi Charles,
I am not convinced the guy is a Jew hater.

Having made a jokey remark I'd better add you might be right.

276 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:34:55pm

Ah yes, the alfalfa club. The one that only recently, began admitting women in the mid-90s.

277 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 3:42:45am

re: #271 Obdicut

You are really, really bad at answering questions.


Its hard to give good answers to stupid questions.

One more hint for you: even in the hottest periods of the cold war, the Soviets did not storm the American embassy in Moscow to take hostages. Maybe you haven't heard about this incident - which was an act of war - , so you should inform yourself about it.

The reason that the Soviets did not take hostages while the Mullahs did, is because of the totally different nature of those regimes. The Soviet Union was a dictatorship acting in a rationale way. They didn't want to destroy their enemy at the cost of their own destruction (that's why the Cold War never changed to a hot war).

The Mullahregime is irrationale in its aims - return of the hidden Imam, destruction, purification of the world - and now also in its ways to achieve those aims: When the elections in June took part, Obama had already shown signs of friendship. If the Mullahs would elected the "good" Moussavi and dropped the evil Ahmadinejad, the whole world would jubilate about Hope and Change, and Obama would have even lesser motivation to act against a secretly developed iranian nuclear bomb than he has now.
But the Mullahs felt totally safe, they spat right in the face not only of their people, but the western world.

And Obama is thanking for the spit:

"I have made it clear that the United States of America wants to move beyond this past, and seeks a relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran based upon mutual interests and mutual respect. We do not interfere in Iran’s internal affairs."

278 garhighway  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 9:20:03am

re: #272 Guanxi88

So you dislike him because he is too far left and not too far left. (Sounds like you are giving him a tough needle to thread.) Because other people attributed to him a "moribund messianic air". (That would be a type of messiah never before contemplated, but whatever.) Because he was contemplative and methodical about committing our armed forces to an overseas conflict. (I consider that a refreshing change.) And because he attempted to follow through on his major campaign promise (health care reform).

OK. Go with that.

My take on the guy is that he is an extremely smart leader who has tried whenever possible to work the middle of the road, build consensus and do the right thing. That's what he said he would do, and I think he has tried. I think he underestimated how polarized and entrenched the political interests are in Congress, and has therefore met with less success than he would have liked, but that's less about him than it is about the forces he is dealing with. (It has become clear, for example, that there is no engaging with Jim Demint of Jim Imhofe or Mitch McConnell.)

I also think he has been dealt a tough hand: the implosion of the financials, the car companies and the economy as a whole were clearly not his doing, but he has to clean it up. Dealing with that, plus Afghanistan plus trying to get health care done is a tough lift.

But apply your standard to ANY mainstream politician and see where you get: who HASN'T been around people who are "radical on one or more points". That would rule out anyone who has ever been in a room with:

Bernie Sanders
Pat Buchanan
Pat Robertson
Barney Frank
Nancy Pelosi
Jim Imhofe
Dick Cheney
etc...

So who would survive that test? Anyone? Bueller?

279 garhighway  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 9:29:52am

re: #277 gegenkritik

Gegen:

I agree that the Mullahs running Iran are evil.

But is it the responsibility of the United States to fix that? Are we responsible for that nation's governance?

And if we are, who else is on that list? What other evil regimes are we responsible to depose? The last time I checked, there was no particular shortage of evil regimes in the world. What test do we apply to determine which we intervene with and which we leave be?

280 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 9:58:49am

re: #273 Stuart Leviton

None of that changes the fact that as Nixon's consigliere, he colluded in an effort to purge Jews from the Nixon administration. Does that prove antisemitism? Maybe not, but I agree with Hitchens that it should have put an end to any kind of political career. Yet, here he is, advising Sarah Palin.

281 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:02:22am

re: #259 gegenkritik

No, Charles is wrong, but thanks for coming up with this and mentioning the National Iranian American Council as one of the organizations that are glad about Obama cutting the aid for opposition-groups. That's consequent, since the NIAC is one of the groups that seeks good relations between the USA and the little more "moderate" Mullahregime.

Actually, you're the one who was wrong, about Brzezinski, Malley, and Samantha Power. Neither Malley nor Brzezinski are Obama advisers -- you claimed they were. And Samantha Power clarified her statements about Israel in an interview with Haaretz -- which you conveniently glided right past.

You popped off with a bunch of claims that I showed to be false. And then you just moved the goalposts.

282 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:37:19am

re: #281 Charles

Actually you were wrong about Bush, Obama and Iran (is this the reason you avoided the Iran in your answer?).

And what goes for Brzeziński and Malley: as I said before, it is good that Obama had to distance from those anti-semites and that they are not his advisors anymore.

About Samantha Power: the article you linked to does in no way support the view that she changed her views regarding Israel. A little bit wish-wash, some whining about who wrong she was interpreted.
Let's agree to disagree, if you think, she is a friend of Israel, fine. I don't think so.

283 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:47:21am

re: #279 garhighway

I can somehow understand some bitterness in the USA, given the fact that they mostly have to defend the free world alone, often being disappointed by their so called allies, especially in Europe.

Nonetheless, I think those isolationist tendencies are very dangerous. Not only from a moral point of view, but also because eventually evil will also come to the USA, as happened on 9/11.

If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, Tehrans first targets will be Israel, then some Arabic states, aybe Europe. But eventually they will also attack the USA. They don't need ICBMs, they could deliver a nuclear warhead into a major American city. They already have a lot of allies oversea, Hizb-Allah-cells are developing faster and faster in South-America.

A free Iran would not only stabilize the whole region, it would have a significant influence in the War on Terror.

And Obaa can have a free Iran for a relative low price now, the US don't even need to military intervene.
When Iran has nukes, the price will be much higher.


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