TwitterFacebook

ACORN Review Finds No Illegality

Politics • Views: 714

An outside review of ACORN has found “serious” problems with management, but no evidence of illegal activity.

An outside review of the beleaguered community group ACORN has found “serious management challenges,” but no pattern of illegal activity.

The review, commissioned by ACORN in the wake of a hidden video expose that showed a few of its employees appearing to offer tips on how to break the law, also largely absolved the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now’s current management, laying much of the blame on founder Wade Rathke for lax oversight and dangerously rapid growth.

Scott Harshbarger, the former Massachusetts attorney who led the inquiry for the Proskauer Rose law firm, found that ACORN is not subject to “basic, appropriate standards of governance and accountability” and suggested specific measures to help restore public confidence.

The review practically absolved ACORN employees caught up in the expose in which a few employees appeared to be offering advice on how to run a brothel.

It also suggested that ACORN should refocus its attention on community organizing, and away from other services. ACORN already announced it would cease offering free tax advice.

Harshbarger called the review “neither an epitaph nor an absolution for ACORN.”

Jump to bottom

282 comments

1 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:46pm

Aaaand cue the ACORN hate-for-all...now!

2 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:03:56pm

Well, then. I'm sure our courageous Congress will rescind its illegal bill of attainder against the organization...right after Copenhagen solves the global warming question.

3 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:04:47pm

"An outside review of the beleaguered community group ACORN has found “serious management challenges,” but no pattern of illegal activity."

Now, I'm no lawyer, but isn't encouraging or advocating illegal activity also illegal? Somebody help me here.

4 arielle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:05:32pm

So discussing strategies to turn underage Central American prostitutes into tax deductions is not illegal.

5 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:05:55pm

So they are General Motors corrupt but not ENRON corrupt?

6 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:05pm

I believe at least some of us here had come to the conclusion that ACORN suffered serious management problems rather than organization-wide approval of illegal activities.

However - if ACORN commissioned the study, how can it be called independent? Serious question, I'm not trying to be an ass . . .

7 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:16pm

re: #3 Soap_Man

"An outside review of the beleaguered community group ACORN has found “serious management challenges,” but no pattern of illegal activity."

Now, I'm no lawyer, but isn't encouraging or advocating illegal activity also illegal? Somebody help me here.

Sorry but I don't see those words anywhere (encouraging or advocating) in the text.

8 KingKenrod  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:47pm

I wonder what drove ACORN's "dangerously rapid growth".

9 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:06:52pm
laying much of the blame on founder Wade Rathke for lax oversight and dangerously rapid growth.

There ought to be Congressional regulations on such growth. They regulate everything else.

10 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:04pm

re: #3 Soap_Man
re: #4 arielle

Notice the quote does not say nothing illegal happened, it says it found "no pattern of illegal activity".

11 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:07pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

However - if ACORN commissioned the study, how can it be called independent? Serious question, I'm not trying to be an ass . . .

Semantics.

12 MPH  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:22pm

Is Scott Harshbarger the sole investigator? Looks like he has a history of supporting a certain political party:
[Link: www.newsmeat.com...]

13 arielle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:23pm

I'm not a lawyer, but I thought that illegal activity under your place of business could put you on the hook as well.

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:47pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

I believe at least some of us here had come to the conclusion that ACORN suffered serious management problems rather than organization-wide approval of illegal activities.

However - if ACORN commissioned the study, how can it be called independent? Serious question, I'm not trying to be an ass . . .

"Independent" was the wrong word for it -- I corrected it.

15 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:07:55pm

re: #7 Locker

Sorry but I don't see those words anywhere (encouraging or advocating) in the text.

You saw the video, right? What did you think was happening?

16 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:07pm

re: #8 KingKenrod

I wonder what drove ACORN's "dangerously rapid growth".

Lack of Congressional oversight. We need at least three new agencies to deal with overseeing these organizations.

17 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:26pm

re: #11 MrSilverDragon

Semantics.

The article calls it an "outside" review which is true, but that's different from "independent".

18 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:27pm

Individual employees were engaged in illegal practices but the organization did not train them to do so or condone the actions.

On the other hand the kind of absolutely abismal management that would enable individual employees in several locations to dispense illegal and immoral advice isn't exactly high praise.

19 arielle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #10 bosforus

Does that mean "no organized illegal activity"? For example no conference calls on how to turn underage girls into tax deductible brothels

20 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:34pm

Weird. The Hill refers to it as an "internal review". ?

[Link: thehill.com...]

I think the Hill fucked up-- sounds like it is an outside review which was commissioned internally by ACORN.

21 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:08:36pm

re: #14 Charles

"Independent" was the wrong word for it -- I corrected it.

Oh, OK

22 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:09:31pm

re: #11 MrSilverDragon

Semantics.


Don't tell me you are anti-semantic!? /

23 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:09:35pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

I believe at least some of us here had come to the conclusion that ACORN suffered serious management problems rather than organization-wide approval of illegal activities.

However - if ACORN commissioned the study, how can it be called independent? Serious question, I'm not trying to be an ass . . .

Because they commissioned it with an independent reviewer? I don't think the entity commissioning a study, poll or other data review affects the independence, it's the entity who is performing the study, poll or data review.

Basically if the reviewer is clean then then the review should be clean.

24 Soap_Man  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:09:44pm

re: #7 Locker

Sorry but I don't see those words anywhere (encouraging or advocating) in the text.

I'm not talking about their text, I'm talking about the tax evasion stuff in the video. What I'm asking is, was THAT illegal?

25 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:09:58pm

re: #23 Locker

Because they commissioned it with an independent reviewer? I don't think the entity commissioning a study, poll or other data review affects the independence, it's the entity who is performing the study, poll or data review.

Basically if the reviewer is clean then then the review should be clean.

Yes, exactly.

26 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:10pm

re: #4 arielle

So discussing strategies to turn underage Central American prostitutes into tax deductions is not illegal.

Thank you for living up to my #1 :)

27 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:18pm

re: #15 bosforus

You saw the video, right? What did you think was happening?

bosforus just because I show a video of you skipping school doesn't mean the school advocated or encouraged you to do it. Right?

28 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:30pm

Sure, an organization funded by taxpayers working to get Democrats elected - no problem there.

29 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:32pm

This is another area where I have to seriously part ways with the right wing. The obsessive demonization of ACORN is way, way beyond what the facts warrant. ACORN has been made into an all-purpose right-wing boogeyman. While they may have problems, they've also done a lot of good for people in minority neighborhoods.

Commence screaming now.

30 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #5 DaddyG

So they are General Motors corrupt but not ENRON corrupt?

I liked that.

31 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:10:35pm

How do we stop "dangerously rapid growth" from happening again?

32 MPH  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:01pm

I don't care what ACORN does, so long as taxpayers are not funding it. That is the core issue here. What was the point of this "independent" investigation, other than to obfuscate more important issues?

33 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:08pm

re: #29 Charles

This is another area where I have to seriously part ways with the right wing. The obsessive demonization of ACORN is way, way beyond what the facts warrant. ACORN has been made into an all-purpose right-wing boogeyman. While they may have problems, they've also done a lot of good for people in minority neighborhoods.

Commence screaming now.

I regret that I have but one upding to give...

34 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:34pm

re: #19 arielle

Does that mean "no organized illegal activity"? For example no conference calls on how to turn underage girls into tax deductible brothels

I have no idea what it means. Did people think there was a "pattern" of illegal activity? Like, every third Sunday funds were being withdrawn? As their statement says, they have "serious management challenges". The word "pattern" is just a distraction, IMO.

35 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:11:51pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

How do we stop "dangerously rapid growth" from happening again?

Quit giving out money with no accountability.

36 arielle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:07pm

re: #26 WindUpBird

I wasn't cueing up any hate, but ok.

37 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:12pm

re: #13 arielle

I'm not a lawyer, but I thought that illegal activity under your place of business could put you on the hook as well.


It depends. If you took appropriate actions and put policies in place to discourage illegal activity you would be insulated from legal recourse. IN the case of safety laws the fact that an employee is injured does not make you liable unless you failed to teach courses, enforce practices and provide equipment those laws require.

Lawyer Lizards can explain better than I- but that would be my take on it.

38 Burl  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:18pm

Why, Acorn doesn't give legal advice.
It's merely lobbying advice on how to get your fair share...

39 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:52pm

re: #22 DaddyG

Don't tell me you are anti-semantic!? /

Pro-Semantic all the way. I'm anti-similie, though, like a fox.

/drugs, or lack thereof

40 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:57pm

re: #27 Locker

bosforus just because I show a video of you skipping school doesn't mean the school advocated or encouraged you to do it. Right?

If the video showed the principal encouraging me to, then yes. Like this video shows the encouragement of the employee.

41 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:12:58pm

re: #30 RogueOne

I liked that.


Thank you. I'm here all week!

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:01pm

re: #18 DaddyG

Individual employees were engaged in illegal practices but the organization did not train them to do so or condone the actions.

On the other hand the kind of absolutely abismal management that would enable individual employees in several locations to dispense illegal and immoral advice isn't exactly high praise.

This accurately describes every job I have ever had.

43 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:05pm

re: #29 Charles

This is another area where I have to seriously part ways with the right wing. The obsessive demonization of ACORN is way, way beyond what the facts warrant. ACORN has been made into an all-purpose right-wing boogeyman. While they may have problems, they've also done a lot of good for people in minority neighborhoods.

Commence screaming now.

so did Al Capone for that matter

44 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:27pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

How do we stop "dangerously rapid growth" from happening again?

tax it...
tax it again

45 Curt  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:13:30pm

re: #3 Soap_Man

"An outside review of the beleaguered community group ACORN has found “serious management challenges,” but no pattern of illegal activity."

Now, I'm no lawyer, but isn't encouraging or advocating illegal activity also illegal? Somebody help me here.

Words, just words...However, it is an amazing human condition that "internal reviews" tend to show no one did nothing really wrong...and that crosses all boundaries of industry, private and public and left and right wing...

And then you have the "by the letter of the law, we didn't do anything wrong" sea lawyers in place, never mind the moral outrage that anyone would be providing this level of advice.

46 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:14:09pm

So the community organization for reform needs some reform?

47 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:14:17pm

re: #45 Curt

Words, just words...However, it is an amazing human condition that "internal reviews" tend to show no one did nothing really wrong...

This was not an "internal" review.

48 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:14:31pm

re: #29 Charles

This is another area where I have to seriously part ways with the right wing. The obsessive demonization of ACORN is way, way beyond what the facts warrant. ACORN has been made into an all-purpose right-wing boogeyman. While they may have problems, they've also done a lot of good for people in minority neighborhoods.

Commence screaming now.

Freaking out about ACORN is partially dog-whistle racism, partially a Republican strategy to attack an advocacy/lobbying group that supports Democrats, and partially just MY TEAM HATES ACORN I HATE ACORN

Boom!

49 ferris  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:14:33pm

Wait, an ACORN paid for review found ACORN is innocent?

Who could have seen that coming?

Next thing you know, the review that CBS paid for will find that CBS had no responsibility for what Dan Rather did with the so-called TANG memos.

50 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:14:34pm

re: #40 bosforus

If the video showed the principal encouraging me to, then yes. Like this video shows the encouragement of the employee.

The video shows the head of ACORN encouraging employees to so something illegal? Maybe I'm missing something...

51 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:15:04pm

re: #46 Racer X

So the community organization for reform needs some reform?

The irony.

52 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:15:10pm

re: #27 Locker

bosforus just because I show a video of you skipping school doesn't mean the school advocated or encouraged you to do it. Right?


Yes but if five teachers in different schools were caught on tape discussing how students might get away with missing class the district could be seen as horribly managed and somewhat neglectful of their duty to keep students in class.

53 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:15:12pm

re: #46 Racer X

So the community organization for reform needs some reform?

yeah...let them fund themselves...problem solved

54 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:15:34pm

re: #50 Locker

The video shows the head of ACORN encouraging employees to so something illegal? Maybe I'm missing something...

Alright, so who's ACORN? An employee? A manager? The head? The policy? Let's just pass this around until we find someone who wasn't involved.

55 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:16:19pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

This accurately describes every job I have ever had.

Granted.

56 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:16:22pm

Your tax dollars in action folks.

57 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:16:28pm

re: #54 bosforus

Alright, so who's ACORN? An employee? A manager? The head? The policy? Let's just pass this around until we find someone who wasn't involved.

Or we could just keep throwing darts until we hit something...

58 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:16:34pm

re: #24 Soap_Man

I'm not talking about their text, I'm talking about the tax evasion stuff in the video. What I'm asking is, was THAT illegal?

Look at the way the feds treated this poor lady and you tell me if you see a difference in how the politically connected are treated when there is even just a suspicion that somethings not right:

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

When you're a single mom making 10 bucks an hour, you don't need government experts to tell you how broke you are.

But that's what happened. The government not only told Porcaro she was poor. They said she was too poor to make it in Seattle.

It all started a year ago, when Porcaro, a 32-year-old mom with two boys, was summoned to the Seattle office of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). She had been flagged for an audit.

59 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:16:35pm

re: #33 Locker

I regret that I have but one upding to give...

The hysteria over ACORN has been even worse than the worst of the left over Deibold blah blah blah in 2000 and 2004. And it's been mainstreamed too. I honestly do not understand it. I think it says something (bad) about a current love for conspiracy nonsense on the right.

60 Curt  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:17:22pm

re: #47 Charles

This was not an "internal" review.

My mistake...you're correct.

61 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:17:35pm

re: #18 DaddyG

Individual employees were engaged in illegal practices but the organization did not train them to do so or condone the actions.

On the other hand the kind of absolutely abismal management that would enable individual employees in several locations to dispense illegal and immoral advice isn't exactly high praise.

What interests me is the individual employees all came up with basically the same advice. Why is that? Training? In which case there is a huge problem.
Or human nature? When asked the questions they were asked is it in human nature to all answer the same way? I don't believe the outside study.

62 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:17:51pm

re: #59 iceweasel

The hysteria over ACORN has been even worse than the worst of the left over Deibold blah blah blah in 2000 and 2004. And it's been mainstreamed too. I honestly do not understand it. I think it says something (bad) about a current love for conspiracy nonsense on the right.

There is some of that right in this thread. Give them a counter to a point, they just bring up some other discredited point. When folks are absolutely convinced that they are right, all input will validate their opinion, no matter how it's phrased.

The circle remains closed I guess...

63 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:18:32pm

re: #57 Locker

Or we could just keep throwing darts until we hit something...

Because ACORN's employees have absolutely no reflection on ACORN.

64 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #63 bosforus

Because ACORN's employees have absolutely no reflection on ACORN.

I like how this changed from an conspiracy of illegal activity by ACORN to a bad "reflection" of ACORN. I'll take that as a win.

65 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:19:37pm

*sits back, grabs beer, grabs chips...*

*pom poms and ra-ra skirt on standby*

66 Lateralis  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:10pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

It does not matter if the behavior was orchestrated by ACORN, they are still responsible for the behavior of their employees.

67 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:20pm

It's clear that the wingnut meme in response to this is going to be to falsely call it an internal review, to delegitimise it and dismiss it. We can see it being birthed right here in the comments.

68 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:34pm

I have no problem with ACORN provided the community services they provide are clearly non-partisan and are in fact beneficial to the community. And that they adhere to all laws and are transparent with how tax-payer money is spent.

Cool?

69 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:34pm

re: #59 iceweasel

The hysteria over ACORN has been even worse than the worst of the left over Deibold blah blah blah in 2000 and 2004. And it's been mainstreamed too. I honestly do not understand it. I think it says something (bad) about a current love for conspiracy nonsense on the right.

I don't see questioning abuses as hysterical, and they have been "mainstreamed" because they are publicly funded

70 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:41pm

The report is very much like the CBS Thornburgh report, in that it minimizes the mismanagement and takes no responsibility for the failings of the organization. To say that there was no illegality ignores the very real problems within ACORN.

It ignores the basic problem with ACORN as seen in all those videos - they were proffering advice to commit illegal acts. That those workers didn't go out and commit the acts advised doesn't absolve them of having a morally and ethically flexible position.

The videos highlight the folks working at ACORN were more than willing to go and provide advice on illegal schemes - the kind of things that should have sent up all kinds of warning signs, but didn't. Corporate mismanagement definitely plays a role, and it shows the problems ACORN has in trying to assist those in the very neighborhoods they're claiming to serve. If they're providing wrong, inaccurate, or even advice on illegal activities (to further illegal schemes as seen in the videos), they are doing a grave disservice to the communities.

Time and again, that's been a hallmark of ACORN projects in NY, and in NY and elsewhere, the political arm of ACORN, the WFP (which often operates out of the same offices without any kind of proper fiscal accounting), pushes their agenda.

71 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:20:52pm

re: #61 Blueheron

What interests me is the individual employees all came up with basically the same advice. Why is that? Training? In which case there is a huge problem.
Or human nature? When asked the questions they were asked is it in human nature to all answer the same way? I don't believe the outside study.


I agree. There are some really really bad oversight and organizational issues issues here. If a kid with a camera could find that many people dispensing illegal or at the very least damaging advice you would think the organization was somewhat culpable. If this were an OSHA investigation for a lost work injury they would have been slapped with the maximum fine and the organization found culpable.

72 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:21:38pm

re: #64 Locker

I like how this changed from an conspiracy of illegal activity by ACORN to a bad "reflection" of ACORN. I'll take that as a win.

What did I say that put me in the conspiracy crowd? It's a poorly run department that's getting defended for reasons I can't understand.

73 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:21:39pm

re: #66 Lateralis

It does not matter if the behavior was orchestrated by ACORN, they are still responsible for the behavior of their employees.

Yes, it matters. It's the entire core of the conversation.

74 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:21:40pm

I am happy to put this whole ACORN thing behind us. No more federal funding, just like plenty of other law-abiding organizations out there.

75 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:21:59pm

re: #69 albusteve

I don't see questioning abuses as hysterical, and they have been "mainstreamed" because they are publicly funded

Questioning isn't hysterical.

Ramping up rhetoric when the facts disprove the allegations is hysterical.

76 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:22:29pm

re: #69 albusteve

I don't see questioning abuses as hysterical, and they have been "mainstreamed" because they are publicly funded

I don't see that either. Making up abuses, creating lies, ignoring any information to the contrary and blaming them for every single problem with any election, anywhere I see as hysterical.

77 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:22:34pm

re: #66 Lateralis

Hey - i have a great idea - lets make the GOP or the Democrats also responsible for every single act perpetrated by someone in their employ and then try to run both organisations out on a rail... (can i get a witness?)

78 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:22:35pm

re: #72 bosforus

What did I say that put me in the conspiracy crowd? It's a poorly run department organization that's getting defended for reasons I can't understand.

79 Lateralis  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:22:35pm

re: #73 Locker

I agree but what I was also saying is they should not get a pass either way.

80 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:22:38pm

Sarah Palin's Popularity Grows, Poll Finds

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll released today (PDF) finds that Sarah Palin's favorable rating has risen to 46 percent. That represents an increase from the 39 percent favorable rating for Palin in CNN polling over the summer, following her decision to resign from her job as Alaska governor.

Palin, the former GOP vice presidential candidate, remains a polarizing figure, of course: 46 percent view her unfavorably, matching her favorable rating. Just 8 percent of those surveyed did not offer an opinion on Palin, who is currently on a book tour for memoir "Going Rogue: An American Life."

She still has a ways to go:

The poll also found that former Vice President Dick Cheney, a frequent critic of President Obama, remains unpopular. Cheney's unfavorable rating sits at 53 percent, while 39 percent view him favorably.

81 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:23:03pm

re: #32 MPH

I don't care what ACORN does, so long as taxpayers are not funding it. That is the core issue here. What was the point of this "independent" investigation, other than to obfuscate more important issues?

Actually, the finding of gross mismanagement will serve to keep the organization from receiving government funds. Congress, being itself uncomfortably familiar with all sorts of shady activity, is extremely sensitive to even the appearance of mismanagement when it comes to awarding tax dollars to large organizations like this. ACORN will be under the microscope should it apply for any future government funds.

82 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:23:46pm

re: #66 Lateralis

It does not matter if the behavior was orchestrated by ACORN, they are still responsible for the behavior of their employees.

Okay, so I guess the breaking news headline is:

Employees Sometimes Do Stupid Things: Film at 11!

*insert flashing drudge siren here*

83 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:23:57pm

re: #59 iceweasel

The hysteria over ACORN has been even worse than the worst of the left over Deibold blah blah blah in 2000 and 2004. And it's been mainstreamed too. I honestly do not understand it. I think it says something (bad) about a current love for conspiracy nonsense on the right.


I beg to differ- Deibold was smeared by a wide spectrum of nut cases and the smear continues to go on. In this case the smear was damaging to confidence in the electoral process through no fault of Deibold or their employees. In the case of ACORN there was bad behavior on the part of their employees in several repeated instances and the fact that the organization did not overtly condone the actions does not make them innocent of poor and damaging practices. It just takes their central management off the hook for conspiracy to defraud or other related charges.

84 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:24:28pm

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.

85 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:24:47pm

re: #77 wozzablog

Hey - i have a great idea - lets make the GOP or the Democrats also responsible for every single act perpetrated by someone in their employ and then try to run both organisations out on a rail... (can i get a witness?)

We've been doing that for 200 years. Where have you been?

86 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:01pm

And this wasn't exactly a law enforcement agency providing outside review of the group, but a review commissioned by ACORN. This was not some independent review, but it wasn't some internal review either. That's why I think the CBS Rathergate review association is apt.

The report's results provide plausible deniability. It sheds some light on how the organization functions, and while outlining some issues in the corporate management, tries to distance itself from the actions of those seen in the multiple videos.

87 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:25pm

re: #84 cliffster

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.

Also, you're one of "them".

88 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:36pm

I think what's often lost in the whole prostitution-taxation scandal is that this was a string operation explicitly designed to catch "gotcha" moments on tape.

Many here have been (rightly) critical of the Climategate email cherrypicking, but are prepared to smear an entire organization based on a few minutes of footage of a few employees who were targeted by filmmakers with an explicit agenda.

89 Lateralis  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:38pm

re: #82 iceweasel

When people do stupid things at my company we are fined large sums of money by the government.

90 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:40pm

re: #84 cliffster

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.

why yes, and don't forget the ever popular conspiricist...it's relentlessly pushed right here

91 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:25:42pm

re: #83 DaddyG

I beg to differ- Deibold was smeared by a wide spectrum of nut cases and the smear continues to go on. In this case the smear was damaging to confidence in the electoral process through no fault of Deibold or their employees. In the case of ACORN there was bad behavior on the part of their employees in several repeated instances and the fact that the organization did not overtly condone the actions does not make them innocent of poor and damaging practices. It just takes their central management off the hook for conspiracy to defraud or other related charges.

The Diebold smear didn't get anywhere near the wide play that the ACORN crap has in the MSM, in my memory. Possibly I misremember.

92 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:01pm

I also don't get all the uproar about funding.

"The amount of money that ACORN has received in the past 20 years altogether is roughly equal to what the taxpayer paid to Halliburton each day during the war in Iraq."

[Link:salon.com... ]

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:07pm

re: #83 DaddyG

I beg to differ- Deibold was smeared by a wide spectrum of nut cases and the smear continues to go on. In this case the smear was damaging to confidence in the electoral process through no fault of Deibold or their employees. In the case of ACORN there was bad behavior on the part of their employees in several repeated instances and the fact that the organization did not overtly condone the actions does not make them innocent of poor and damaging practices. It just takes their central management off the hook for conspiracy to defraud or other related charges.

You know, all those gearheads who figured out how to hack a voting machine weren't lying. The Diebold hysterics were indeed hysterics, but there were easy ways to hack voting machines, and it wasn't nutcases who figured it out. A friend of mine who is an IT wizard explained just how easy it was.

94 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:12pm

re: #61 Blueheron

What interests me is the individual employees all came up with basically the same advice. Why is that? Training? In which case there is a huge problem.
Or human nature? When asked the questions they were asked is it in human nature to all answer the same way? I don't believe the outside study.

Poor training can become a huge nightmare for any business or organization. But it's incumbent on management to get the situation under control. Starting with a review is a good first step. It's never a good idea with poor training to keep the status quo.

95 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:32pm

re: #84 cliffster

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.

I think the large number of fair-minded liberal leaning LGF members would tend to disagree.

96 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:40pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

Sarah Palin's Popularity Grows, Poll Finds


Now if could just run a poll that measures who gives a crap how popular Cheney and Palin are vs. who doesn't give a crap how popular Palin and Cheney are. That would be illustrative. ;-)

97 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:27:59pm

OT: If anyone has any schizophrenics in their family, Oprah (hey, it was already on this channel) is doing a show about child schizo's. They're interviewing parents of a 7yr old with it.

98 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:28:43pm

re: #88 ignoranceisfatal

Actually, the fact that the videographers were trying such a preposterous situation - and got away with it at so many individual ACORN offices suggests a very serious problem in how those offices operate and who ACORN employs. It shows that they hire people with a very flexible moral and ethical character; that they didn't realize that there was illegal conduct involved (prostitution, child prostitution, racketeering, tax fraud, etc.) is bad enough; that they were providing advice on how to benefit from the scheme is worse.

re: #91 iceweasel

The Diebold meme never got serious play outside the crankosphere because there wasn't any video to accompany the stories. Here? Lots of video. That's a big difference.

99 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:28:58pm

re: #95 ignoranceisfatal

I think the large number of fair-minded liberal leaning LGF members would tend to disagree.

you have not lurked for very long it seems...it's one constant you can bet your paycheck on

100 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:02pm

re: #87 SixDegrees

Apparently, a logic argument is completely debunked if you manage to say, " in 5... 4... 3..."

101 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:03pm

re: #85 RogueOne

i forgot to add "and try to drag both parties through the courts for idiot behaviour in regional offices staffed by volunteers and those of generally good will making idiot decisions"

after all - isn't that all the political parties are? - organisations that exist primarily in communitys and seek to organise them for one purpose or another... but heaven forfend they be called "community organisers".
_

102 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #95 ignoranceisfatal

I think the large number of fair-minded liberal leaning LGF members would tend to disagree.

Fair-minded being the operative words.

103 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:46pm

re: #100 cliffster

Apparently, a logic argument is completely debunked if you manage to say, " in 5... 4... 3..."

Don't forget reductio ad Beckam.

104 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:29:55pm

re: #84 cliffster

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.


You know how you never told me to tell you when you're saying something foolish?

You're saying something foolish.

105 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:30:12pm

re: #77 wozzablog

Hey - i have a great idea - lets make the GOP or the Democrats also responsible for every single act perpetrated by someone in their employ and then try to run both organisations out on a rail... (can i get a witness?)

While I don't agree that management can be held directly accountable for it's employee's actions, it does appear that the study under discussion found enough of a problem with management - or lack of it - creating an environment in which such activities could thrive, with no mechanisms in place to prevent, detect or correct such inappropriate behavior.

As for applying the former recipe to government - that's exactly what's been going on for as long as there have been vying political factions.

106 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:30:46pm

re: #98 lawhawk


The Diebold meme never got serious play outside the crankosphere because there wasn't any video to accompany the stories. Here? Lots of video. That's a big difference.

I don't think that can be the only reason. We'd been hearing various freakouts over ACORN for literally months before these videos, and they were by no means confined to the crankosphere.

107 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:30:47pm

re: #82 iceweasel

Okay, so I guess the breaking news headline is:

Employees Sometimes Do Stupid Things: Film at 11!

*insert flashing drudge siren here*


But rarely do employees of several far flung branches of one organization coordinate their stupidity so well without some tacit knowledge or approval of what they are doing. ACORN must be the home of some amazing coincidences when it comes to offering tax advice to potential pimps and madams.

(...not to mention stupidity. Who gives tax advice to a skinny white huggy bear and a Paris Hilton knockoff with a straight face?)

108 RogueOne  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #101 wozzablog

i forgot to add "and try to drag both parties through the courts for idiot behaviour in regional offices staffed by volunteers and those of generally good will making idiot decisions"

after all - isn't that all the political parties are? - organisations that exist primarily in communitys and seek to organise them for one purpose or another... but heaven forfend they be called "community organisers".
_

The only thing different now is we no longer go outside and shoot at each other at 6 paces, now we assassinate each other on the web.

109 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:31:34pm

re: #103 Guanxi88

Don't forget reductio ad Beckam.

And your questions can also be ignored in the middle of a conversation.

re: #64 Locker

What did I say that put me in the conspiracy crowd? It's a poorly run organization that's getting defended for reasons I can't understand.

110 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #106 iceweasel

There were also reports that ACORN workers were engaging in electoral fraud - fraudulent registrations, etc., going back several election cycles. The videos were the icing on the cake.

111 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:10pm

re: #108 RogueOne

The only thing different now is we no longer go outside and shoot at each other at 6 paces, now we assassinate each other on the web.

It's probably better this way.

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:19pm

re: #107 DaddyG

But rarely do employees of several far flung branches of one organization coordinate their stupidity so well without some tacit knowledge or approval of what they are doing. ACORN must be the home of some amazing coincidences when it comes to offering tax advice to potential pimps and madams.

(...not to mention stupidity. Who gives tax advice to a skinny white huggy bear and a Paris Hilton knockoff with a straight face?)

Uh, someone who doesn't care who is phoning in their job?


Nobody has ever phoned in their job where you've worked? You must work in a wonderful, amazing place. :)

113 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:30pm
114 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #102 Sharmuta

Fair-minded being the operative words.

golly, why are ACORN apologists 100% liberals?

115 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:33:10pm

re: #93 WindUpBird

You know, all those gearheads who figured out how to hack a voting machine weren't lying. The Diebold hysterics were indeed hysterics, but there were easy ways to hack voting machines, and it wasn't nutcases who figured it out. A friend of mine who is an IT wizard explained just how easy it was.


Its almost as easy as punching an extra hole in a paper ballot. (evil grin)

The chain of custody on machines is as important as it is on paper ballots. Some honest poll workers, multiple checks and a good management system can alleviate lots of ills.

116 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:33:18pm

re: #107 DaddyG

But rarely do employees of several far flung branches of one organization coordinate their stupidity so well without some tacit knowledge or approval of what they are doing.

But that's exactly what every single review or 'scandal' about ACORN has shown: zero evidence of co-ordinated action or approval from within. There's just no 'there' there.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:33:40pm

re: #108 RogueOne

The only thing different now is we no longer go outside and shoot at each other at 6 paces, now we assassinate each other on the web.

QUAD DAMAGE!!!

118 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:33:58pm

re: #112 WindUpBird

And the workers on those videos all responded laconically in the same general manner? No, there is a serious trend with those ACORN employees providing that kind of information to the videographers that can't be chalked up to mere coincidence or phoning in their jobs.

119 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:34:00pm

re: #114 albusteve

golly, why are ACORN apologists 100% liberals?

Well, that's easy (according to you):

You support ACORN, therefore you must be a liberal.
Ergo, all ACORN supporters must be liberals.

120 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:34:38pm

re: #105 SixDegrees

I'm not saying anything about Government. this is purely about holding local chapters of political parties - and the organisers of communities there in - to the same standard.

Anyone spending as much time digging in those areas (say, by sending in stereotypes of Hillfolk or Princeton boys to be agent provocateurs) will find people willing to say stupid things and offer to do stupid things - and doubtless if looking hard enough - borderline illegal things.

121 researchok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:34:38pm

That Acorn found 'no illegalities' only speaks to the reality that they have been successful at circumventing the rules or have shaded the gray to their satisfaction.

Way too much water under those Acorn bridges. They are not the political ingenues they claim to be,

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:10pm

re: #115 DaddyG

Its almost as easy as punching an extra hole in a paper ballot. (evil grin)

The chain of custody on machines is as important as it is on paper ballots. Some honest poll workers, multiple checks and a good management system can alleviate lots of ills.

There's a biiig difference between an irregularity on a paer ballot, and malicious code that a hacker can write to untracably alter vote counts by inserting it into a Diebold machine via flash memory.

123 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:13pm

re: #110 lawhawk

There were also reports that ACORN workers were engaging in electoral fraud - fraudulent registrations, etc., going back several election cycles. The videos were the icing on the cake.

No, no 'etcetera'-- only fraudulent registration. No evidence of voter fraud or attempt to commit fraud-- just low-paid workers upping their quotas by registering 'Mickey Mouse'.

124 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:17pm

re: #108 RogueOne

Somethings are a step backwards.

125 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:22pm

re: #29 Charles

This is another area where I have to seriously part ways with the right wing. The obsessive demonization of ACORN is way, way beyond what the facts warrant. ACORN has been made into an all-purpose right-wing boogeyman. While they may have problems, they've also done a lot of good for people in minority neighborhoods.

Commence screaming now.

I agree, many if not most on the right actually believe ACORN stole the election. There was registration fraud my poorly supervised workers, but I never saw any documented vote fraud. Any time you send out a bunch of low paid workers, and pay them for signed forms, some will fake it. The same with the idiots in a few offices with their prostitution advice, it was a local screw up, and shows piss poor management, but not intentional direction from the top.
As a teenager, I was paid to deliver fliers, and many others would just toss them in the trash rather than deliver them for example.

126 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:36pm

re: #106 iceweasel

I don't think that can be the only reason. We'd been hearing various freakouts over ACORN for literally months before these videos, and they were by no means confined to the crankosphere.

freakouts?...to me that means beyond all reason...I don't think so...are we freaking out now?

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:50pm

re: #114 albusteve

golly, why are ACORN apologists 100% liberals?

Uh...because we're evil and we eat babies? Duh.

128 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:35:58pm

re: #123 iceweasel

No, no 'etcetera'-- only fraudulent registration. No evidence of voter fraud or attempt to commit fraud-- just low-paid workers upping their quotas by registering 'Mickey Mouse'.

Additionally some of the "reports of fraudulent registration" were made by ACORN itself. A fact which is always glossed over by all the ACORN haters.

129 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:36:11pm

re: #118 lawhawk

And the workers on those videos all responded laconically in the same general manner? No, there is a serious trend with those ACORN employees providing that kind of information to the videographers that can't be chalked up to mere coincidence or phoning in their jobs.

I don't get it. Do people really think that ACORN offices were training their employees on how to handle pimps' tax questions? How does this make any sense?

130 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:36:28pm

re: #116 iceweasel

Actually, the "there" there is that the management continues to allow for hiring of individuals who have no problem engaging in this kind of behavior - whether it's the registration fraud we've seen in recent elections, or the proffering of the advice on how to operate a child prostitution ring and fund a political campaign from same.

So, while there is no policy in place that quantifies such acts and information, it still creates the conditions where such advice and actions are prevalent.

131 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:37:36pm

re: #114 albusteve

golly, why are ACORN apologists 100% liberals?

It's not being an 'apologist' to point out when someone has the facts wrong. No one is going to argue that ACORN isn't a sloppy organisation riddled with bad management.

That doesn't make them the all-powerful boogieman that some on the (wingnut) right see in them. They've been a weird all-purpose scapegoat for them.

132 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:38:20pm

re: #111 Guanxi88

It's probably better this way.

Yeah but the cost in carpal tunnel syndrome is incalculable!! /

133 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:38:39pm

re: #110 lawhawk

There were also reports that ACORN workers were engaging in electoral fraud - fraudulent registrations, etc., going back several election cycles. The videos were the icing on the cake.

Correct. And as I've noted here in the past, based solely on my own experience ACORN fairly drips slime when it comes to it's political antics. Locally, they've happily signed contracts to collect signatures for both sides of the same issue on more than one occasion, with both "yea" and "nay" signature collectors dumping their petitions back at the same office at the end of the day; and on at least one occasion of using the collection process to proselytize by presenting the wording on the petition in a highly biased fashion, creating a false impression in the mind of whoever read it to the extent that the petitions were thrown out and the organization excoriated by a judge for bad behavior.

They've been doing this sort of thing, and apparently worse, for over 25 years now. It's long past time they were more heavily monitored.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:39:10pm

re: #48 WindUpBird

Freaking out about ACORN is partially dog-whistle racism, partially a Republican strategy to attack an advocacy/lobbying group that supports Democrats, and partially just MY TEAM HATES ACORN I HATE ACORN

Boom!

Also, just an increasing paranoia about this org which vastly overrates their influence.

135 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:39:13pm

re: #130 lawhawk

Actually, the "there" there is that the management continues to allow for hiring of individuals who have no problem engaging in this kind of behavior - whether it's the registration fraud we've seen in recent elections, or the proffering of the advice on how to operate a child prostitution ring and fund a political campaign from same.

So, while there is no policy in place that quantifies such acts and information, it still creates the conditions where such advice and actions are prevalent.

Sounds like profiling to me. How do you know what kind of behavior someone is going to engage in before they've ever done it? I blame Tom Cruise and that POS Minority Report...

136 Aye Pod  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:39:26pm

re: #114 albusteve

golly, why are ACORN apologists 100% liberals?

Remember kids - 'L' is for Liberal; 'L' is for Lice...

137 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:39:53pm

Well, one can only have his question ignored so many times.
Moving on...

138 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:40:46pm

re: #123 iceweasel

Actually, in NY, there is more there. WFP voter fraud in upstate NY. ACORN and WFP can't quite figure out their books- in violation of state campaign finance laws.

Then, there's embezzlement in the Louisiana office.

Then, there's the ACORN worker in the NY office who managed to soak Verizon for $500k.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:41:09pm

re: #52 DaddyG

Yes but if five teachers in different schools were caught on tape discussing how students might get away with missing class the district could be seen as horribly managed and somewhat neglectful of their duty to keep students in class.

Possibly. But the problem with these fact-finding expeditions is that they don't actually address real things ACORN might have been doing with its real clients.

What you need to know is what attendence at the schools is actually like. Less sexy than 'gotcha' films, but the only important thing.

140 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:42:11pm

re: #131 iceweasel

But...but - how can you say that - when they clearly stole the election for Obama by registering a million voters called Mickey Mouse in a majority of about 9million for Obama...

[Link: publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com...]

all hail the all powerful machine...

/

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:42:58pm

re: #84 cliffster

So it's almost universal. If you disagree with anything liberal in nature, you are a loony right-wing hysterical. And may very well be a racist.

Martyr cookie?

142 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:43:14pm

re: #123 iceweasel

No, no 'etcetera'-- only fraudulent registration. No evidence of voter fraud or attempt to commit fraud-- just low-paid workers upping their quotas by registering 'Mickey Mouse'.

Around here, paying for signatures on a per-signatory basis is illegal when it comes to political petitions, something ACORN has been excoriated for locally, anyway, with blame laid on those supervising the collectors for failing to provide proper training along with the illegal pay practices.

143 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:43:14pm

re: #130 lawhawk

Actually, the "there" there is that the management continues to allow for hiring of individuals who have no problem engaging in this kind of behavior - whether it's the registration fraud we've seen in recent elections, or the proffering of the advice on how to operate a child prostitution ring and fund a political campaign from same.

So, while there is no policy in place that quantifies such acts and information, it still creates the conditions where such advice and actions are prevalent.

Frankly, all I see are the issues avanti pointed out: problems with lowpaid, lowskilled, poorly trained employees.

Still doesn't make them the boogieman. The weird thing is that the more we learn about ACORN the less plausible all these theories should be-- these folks can't organise their way out of a paper bag, let alone steal an election. Frankly the GOP ought to hope that the Dems would hire them to subvert the election process-- it seems like the best way to guarantee the Republicans would win.*

*This is a joke, I am not genuinely advocating the subverting of elections.

144 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:43:31pm

re: #131 iceweasel

It's not being an 'apologist' to point out when someone has the facts wrong. No one is going to argue that ACORN isn't a sloppy organisation riddled with bad management.

That doesn't make them the all-powerful boogieman that some on the (wingnut) right see in them. They've been a weird all-purpose scapegoat for them.

there are always "some" on both sides of the spectrum...the point is there is very legitimate criticism of ACORN...nobody is freaking out here, and I don't see any "all-powerful boogie (bogy) man elements to these discussions...that you seem to think so borders on hysteria, that is manufacturing scenarios that don't exist...imo of course

145 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:44:07pm

re: #132 DaddyG

Yeah but the cost in carpal tunnel syndrome is incalculable!! /

Beats a sucking chest wound

146 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:44:09pm

re: #88 ignoranceisfatal

I think what's often lost in the whole prostitution-taxation scandal is that this was a string operation explicitly designed to catch "gotcha" moments on tape.

Many here have been (rightly) critical of the Climategate email cherrypicking, but are prepared to smear an entire organization based on a few minutes of footage of a few employees who were targeted by filmmakers with an explicit agenda.

I wonder what you would catch on video if you were secretly filming a typical accountant about not reporting some untraceable income for example ?

147 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:44:10pm

re: #138 lawhawk

Then, there's the ACORN worker in the NY office who managed to soak Verizon for $500k.

The bulk of which was accrued because the employee signed up thousands of phone lines for a Verizon corporate plan... phone lines from the Department of Education, which she also worked for while committing the fraud.

Obvious conclusion? Deny all government funds to the DOE!

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:44:24pm

re: #106 iceweasel

I don't think that can be the only reason. We'd been hearing various freakouts over ACORN for literally months before these videos, and they were by no means confined to the crankosphere.

We got the videos because there were the freakouts.

Is it mean of me to wonder if I could pull something like this on a right-wing org, and what people would say then?

149 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:44:37pm

re: #116 iceweasel

But that's exactly what every single review or 'scandal' about ACORN has shown: zero evidence of co-ordinated action or approval from within. There's just no 'there' there.


The investigation says there was no evidence of coordination from within. Which leaves tacit approval of the repeated activities or extreme ignorance and stupidity on the part of the managing organization.

A good parallel is when the Atlanta office of The Boy Scouts of America gave out awards to their employees for registering new Boy Scouts. They didn't get new Boy Scouts, instead they got fake Boy Scouts on paper. The organiztion did not ask their employees to do something dishonest but they were culpable for the bad behavior because they reinforced it with their policies and didn't take precautions to oversee that the registrations were genuine. They took a huge hit in public trust and were dropped for a time by United Way.

I love the BSA as an organization and concept and I certainly don't have BSA Derangement Syndrome - but people deserved to get fired for that and the organization earned its black eye.

How is ACORN not equally if not more culpable for the wide spread corruption in its own ranks? (and yes I would consider at least 5 documented instances of the same or similar fraud being encouraged by employees as widespread.)

150 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:45:03pm

re: #146 avanti

I wonder what you would catch on video if you were secretly filming a typical accountant about not reporting some untraceable income for example ?

It'd be illegal and dull.

151 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:45:57pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

We got the videos because there were the freakouts.

Is it mean of me to wonder if I could pull something like this on a right-wing org, and what people would say then?

there is no right wing org equivalent to ACORN

152 Mark Pennington  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:46:50pm

Thank you, Charles. ;)

153 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:46:52pm

Don't forget, wingnuts, if your ACORN hysteria engine runs out of steam, you can always go back to your zombie-like hatred for anyone in a union.

All those thuggish hotel maids in SEIU, for instance.

154 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:47:13pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

We got the videos because there were the freakouts.

Is it mean of me to wonder if I could pull something like this on a right-wing org, and what people would say then?

So you are stipulating then that ACORN is a left-wing organization?

Also, make sure that's Taxpayer funded right-wing organization (are there any of those?). And yes, if you found stuff like that on a taxpayer-funded right-wing organization, I would say that organization should become not-taxpayer-funded.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:47:39pm

re: #149 DaddyG

The investigation says there was no evidence of coordination from within. Which leaves tacit approval of the repeated activities or extreme ignorance and stupidity on the part of the managing organization.

A good parallel is when the Atlanta office of The Boy Scouts of America gave out awards to their employees for registering new Boy Scouts. They didn't get new Boy Scouts, instead they got fake Boy Scouts on paper. The organiztion did not ask their employees to do something dishonest but they were culpable for the bad behavior because they reinforced it with their policies and didn't take precautions to oversee that the registrations were genuine. They took a huge hit in public trust and were dropped for a time by United Way.

I love the BSA as an organization and concept and I certainly don't have BSA Derangement Syndrome - but people deserved to get fired for that and the organization earned its black eye.

How is ACORN not equally if not more culpable for the wide spread corruption in its own ranks? (and yes I would consider at least 5 documented instances of the same or similar fraud being encouraged by employees as widespread.)

I quite agree, except that no wide-flung group in the blogosphere seems to have decided the Boy Scouts of America are a total fraud on account of this incident.

156 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:47:45pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Don't joke - those hotel maids have really sharp elbows...

157 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:48:00pm

re: #149 DaddyG

The investigation says there was no evidence of coordination from within. Which leaves tacit approval of the repeated activities or extreme ignorance and stupidity on the part of the managing organization.

But that's the point. What is the evidence for this nebulous 'tacit approval', as opposed to extreme ignorance and stupidity? I don't see any, and why attribute malicious deliberate motives when something can be explained by ignorance and stupidity (and incompetence)?
There's no shortage of the latter three in the world.

158 subsailor68  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:49:06pm

re: #146 avanti

I wonder what you would catch on video if you were secretly filming a typical accountant about not reporting some untraceable income for example ?

Hi avanti! Well, I would expect, and hope, to see an honest accountant explaining patiently that this would be a violation of the law, and he or she would not be a part of it. If, on the other hand, the video showed the accountant not only agreeing to abet this act, but going into detail on the best way to do so, I would expect to see that accountant end up in jail.

Oops, that's the way I feel about any illegal activity involving anyone, or any organization - including ACORN.

159 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:49:24pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Don't forget, wingnuts, if your ACORN hysteria engine runs out of steam, you can always go back to your zombie-like hatred for anyone in a union.

All those thuggish hotel maids in SEIU, for instance.

you should pay us to listen to shit like that...talk about over the top...good one!

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:49:26pm

re: #151 albusteve

there is no right wing org equivalent to ACORN

Right, because they control the media. Or the housing market. Or whatever the hell they control.

OK, the Pimp Boy also went after Planned Parenthood. If I got tapes of Birthright employees agreeing to do racist illegal things on the phone, what would it mean?

161 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:49:31pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Don't forget, wingnuts, if your ACORN hysteria engine runs out of steam, you can always go back to your zombie-like hatred for anyone in a union.

All those thuggish hotel maids in SEIU, for instance.

I think nothing shows better the absolute bought-and-sold nature of the Republican party than the stance on organized labor. For pity's sake, union labor was and should be the backbone of any domestic conservative constituency - they've got at least as much stake in a healthy economy as anyone else, they've got a proven network of interest, and they were one of the few reliably anti-communist national organizations during the Cold War. It mystifies me how they threw them over the side.

162 The Left  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:49:33pm

Time for university challenge! later. :)

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:05pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Don't forget, wingnuts, if your ACORN hysteria engine runs out of steam, you can always go back to your zombie-like hatred for anyone in a union.

All those thuggish hotel maids in SEIU, for instance.

No, no the maids are just mindless drones handing over their dues, unaware of how they're being exploited.

//

164 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:19pm

re: #156 wozzablog

Don't joke - those hotel maids have really sharp elbows...

They'll tuck your sheets in too tightly, pinning you into the feculent bed.

165 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:40pm

re: #146 avanti

I wonder what you would catch on video if you were secretly filming a typical accountant about not reporting some untraceable income for example ?

Good question. But for my part, I've had 3 different CPA's and all three have been very stern about that sort of thing.

166 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:48pm

re: #147 ignoranceisfatal


Obvious conclusion? Deny all government funds to the DOE!

That's a different topic but one I would entertain. (evil grin)

167 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:50:52pm

re: #164 Guanxi88

They'll tuck your sheets in too tightly, pinning you into the feculent bed.

Consuela?

168 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:51:59pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

We got the videos because there were the freakouts.

Is it mean of me to wonder if I could pull something like this on a right-wing org, and what people would say then?


Keep the excuses and reverse the posters names according to political affinity. Voila!

169 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:52:16pm

re: #150 Guanxi88

It'd be illegal and dull.

Not so dull with the accountant I had when running a business, he was pretty shifty. He suggesting doing things that I was actually unwilling to do, so I just did the taxes I could avoid and not the ones I could evade.

His most brilliant plan was to set up dummy businesses that I could buy from and sell too, and insure none of them would make paper profits. Of course his other clients are still thriving and I had to sell mine. :)

170 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:52:38pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Time for university challenge! later. :)

"The world's record for stuffing marshmallows up one single nostril..."

"Six-hundred and four, Toxteth O'Grady, U.S.A."

171 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:17pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

It mystifies me how they threw them over the side.

The power of informed and organised Labour threatens all corporations and of money concentrated in one place (shareholder pockets) rather than being given in fair compensation and benefits to the workforce.

Corporatists (& and their representatives in Govt, The GOP) want nothing to do with unions except busting.

172 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #157 iceweasel

But that's the point. What is the evidence for this nebulous 'tacit approval', as opposed to extreme ignorance and stupidity? I don't see any, and why attribute malicious deliberate motives when something can be explained by ignorance and stupidity (and incompetence)?
There's no shortage of the latter three in the world.

in this case extreme ignorance and stupidity are worse than tacit approval...we are talking dicking around with election registration and voting here...this is no place for extreme ignorance and stupidity, therefore ACORN should be disenfranchised until they get a little smarter

173 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:33pm

re: #170 Mad Al-Jaffee

"The world's record for stuffing marshmallows up one single nostril..."

"Six-hundred and four, Toxteth O'Grady, U.S.A."

World's biggest bottom-burp...

Rick, England. No, it says, right there.

Love the Young Ones.

Up Scumbag!

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:45pm

re: #154 cliffster

So you are stipulating then that ACORN is a left-wing organization?

Also, make sure that's Taxpayer funded right-wing organization (are there any of those?). And yes, if you found stuff like that on a taxpayer-funded right-wing organization, I would say that organization should become not-taxpayer-funded.

By virtue of helping the poor, I suppose ACORN must be a left-wing organization (and yes, that was meant to sound just as bitchy as it did.)

I would agree with, or at least accept, your response, except that I continue to be annoyed that people do not seem to want to admit that the tapes were a complete and deliberate hit job, done out of political motivation. Does that matter? In terms of what to do with the information, no. In terms of my complete contempt for Pimp Boy, possibly.

175 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:53:53pm

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

I quite agree, except that no wide-flung group in the blogosphere seems to have decided the Boy Scouts of America are a total fraud on account of this incident.


It was local to Atlanta and there were plenty of calls to stop funding them altogether. We're still trying to recover in some areas of the city.

176 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:55:45pm

re: #158 subsailor68

Hi avanti! Well, I would expect, and hope, to see an honest accountant explaining patiently that this would be a violation of the law, and he or she would not be a part of it. If, on the other hand, the video showed the accountant not only agreeing to abet this act, but going into detail on the best way to do so, I would expect to see that accountant end up in jail.

Oops, that's the way I feel about any illegal activity involving anyone, or any organization - including ACORN.

I too would expect that, but in reality, what percentage of accountants would get caught in a sting like ACORN was ? In my experience, the 'wink-wink" accountants do a lot of work for businesses large and small.

177 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #157 iceweasel

But that's the point. What is the evidence for this nebulous 'tacit approval', as opposed to extreme ignorance and stupidity? I don't see any, and why attribute malicious deliberate motives when something can be explained by ignorance and stupidity (and incompetence)?
There's no shortage of the latter three in the world.


The only indication (I wouldn't say evidence) is the similarity in the mistakes made over several organizations including the fake registrations and bad tax advice. It is at the very least a coincidence of magnificent proportions. I suspect in reality there was such a push to get funding and register voters the management turned a blind eye to rumors of misbehavior and thus my use of the phrase tacit approval (i.e. whatever you do we don't care as long as it brings in money and voter registrations).

178 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:56:37pm

re: #171 wozzablog

The power of informed and organised Labour threatens all corporations and of money concentrated in one place (shareholder pockets) rather than being given in fair compensation and benefits to the workforce.

Corporatists (& and their representatives in Govt, The GOP) want nothing to do with unions except busting.

Which is bizarre. As a rightist with a strong Labor tradition in my family, I see nothing inherently wrong with organized labor competing and negotiating in the marketplace for their constituencies. In fact, I think it's a healthy intermediate institution, and that the same totalizing logic that would abolish all non-governmental intermediaries between the citizen and the state is at work in the attempt to remove the intermediaries between the individual worker and his employer. You gotta have them, or the individual gets crushed.

179 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:56:42pm

re: #164 Guanxi88

They'll tuck your sheets in too tightly, pinning you into the feculent bed.

Ahem...maybe you call in the maids after you've already taken possession of the room and gotten into bed. My sheets are tucked in by members of ACORN (American Callgirls Organization for Regular Nookie).

180 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:57:25pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Ahem...maybe you call in the maids after you've already taken possession of the room and gotten into bed. My sheets are tucked in by members of ACORN (American Callgirls Organization for Regular Nookie).

Clearly, you stay at a better class establishment than I do. Perhaps if I paid for the full hour...

181 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:57:27pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

By virtue of helping the poor, I suppose ACORN must be a left-wing organization (and yes, that was meant to sound just as bitchy as it did.)

I would agree with, or at least accept, your response, except that I continue to be annoyed that people do not seem to want to admit that the tapes were a complete and deliberate hit job, done out of political motivation. Does that matter? In terms of what to do with the information, no. In terms of my complete contempt for Pimp Boy, possibly.

they help the poor so the poor will vote democrat and help perpetuate their power base...nothing new there, exploiting masses of people for votes, it's what democrats do best

182 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:58:17pm

re: #181 albusteve

they help the poor so the poor will vote democrat and help perpetuate their power base...nothing new there, exploiting masses of people for votes, it's what democrats do best

If that's the case, maybe GOPers should try helping the poor for a change.

183 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:58:21pm

Given the fact that ACORN has managed to register about one million (1,000,000) voters in the last six or eight years, it's hard for anyone to rationally argue that ACORN is responsible for President Obama winning the election. And prior to this year, there were a number of Republicans who actually supported ACORN in its efforts, because it was good community service (George W. Bush among them).

184 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll say that's true, but either way they said what they said. Let's say my wife hired someone to try and get me to bed, to see if I would be loyal, and I went to bed with that person. "You set me up!" would not get much traction.

Either way, the problem I have is with a taxpayer-funded organization that so openly favors one party.

185 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:59:20pm

re: #182 Cato the Elder

If that's the case, maybe GOPers should try helping the poor for a change.

maybe the poor should try helping themselves instead of depending on the feds/donks/liberals who use them

186 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 1:59:24pm

re: #182 Cato the Elder

If that's the case, maybe GOPers should try helping the poor for a change.

GOPers help the poor tremendously. They just do it with their own money.

187 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:00:40pm

re: #182 Cato the Elder

If that's the case, maybe GOPers should try helping the poor for a change.


I do- without asking for taxpayer subsidization.

188 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:01:06pm
... The review, commissioned by ACORN, found

...
Oh, okay.

189 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:01:20pm

re: #178 Guanxi88


It is nuts. But thats the GOP for you. Rabidly anti-union beause they are a communist rag bag determined to destroy the economy by wanting more money and benefits for people earning pittance and less for people collecting dividends off the share market.

190 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:01:20pm

re: #184 cliffster

Either way, the problem I have is with a taxpayer-funded organization that so openly favors one party.

Abolish all universities!

191 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:02:24pm

re: #190 ignoranceisfatal

Abolish all universities!

Different topic. Much, much bigger problem.

192 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:02:27pm

re: #184 cliffster

I'll say that's true, but either way they said what they said. Let's say my wife hired someone to try and get me to bed, to see if I would be loyal, and I went to bed with that person. "You set me up!" would not get much traction.

Either way, the problem I have is with a taxpayer-funded organization that so openly favors one party.

of course...it flies in the face of the ageless American expression of fair play...but liberal droolers have another definition for it entirely...'helping the poor' is perfect cover, if you disagree with the whole premise you are a cold hearted hater...perfect!

193 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:02:59pm

re: #188 tradewind

Would you have preferred that they NOT commission a review in the wake of these problems, for some reason?

If so, why?

194 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:04:19pm

re: #191 cliffster

Yup - David Horowitz told me so...

195 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:04:39pm

re: #189 wozzablog

It is nuts. But thats the GOP for you. Rabidly anti-union beause they are a communist rag bag determined to destroy the economy by wanting more money and benefits for people earning pittance and less for people collecting dividends off the share market.

well they destroyed quality education, and alot of the car business, textiles, steel etc...what the fuck good do they do exactly besides promote democrats?

196 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:05:18pm

re: #190 ignoranceisfatal

Abolish all universities!

not a bad idea at all...start over...good thinking

197 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:05:33pm

re: #177 DaddyG

The only indication (I wouldn't say evidence) is the similarity in the mistakes made over several organizations including the fake registrations and bad tax advice. It is at the very least a coincidence of magnificent proportions. I suspect in reality there was such a push to get funding and register voters the management turned a blind eye to rumors of misbehavior and thus my use of the phrase tacit approval (i.e. whatever you do we don't care as long as it brings in money and voter registrations).

Every year, I have to take formal training and be tested for understanding of export controls, material handling, safety procedures, security procedures and about a half-dozen other topics that have somewhere between little and nothing to do with my job, or even with the site I work at. The company required successful completion of such training for all employees, however, partly because it probably really believes it's best to have a trained workforce, but also partly because it's covering it's own ass in case someone ships something somewhere they shouldn't, pokes out an eye on company time and property or bungles security in some way. After such an incident's immediate impacts are dealt with, the very next stop is nearly always someone higher up the management chain, and attempts to lay blame are commonplace. That the company can reach in a file and produce documentation that the employee involved was properly trained in the correct procedures helps to protect against all sorts of repercussions, including lawsuits. It's also necessary to have procedures in place to document precisely what happened, for instance, in the case of an accident. But we have to pass training sessions for those procedures, as well.

In other words, holding the company responsible for the actions of it's employees is common enough that many corporations expend a good many resources ensuring that proper training takes place, and is well documented.

That is obviously not the case at ACORN, according to this report.

198 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:05:57pm

re: #59 iceweasel

The hysteria over ACORN has been even worse than the worst of the left over Deibold blah blah blah in 2000 and 2004. And it's been mainstreamed too. I honestly do not understand it. I think it says something (bad) about a current love for conspiracy nonsense on the right.

Hey iceweasel, A point of clarification on the Diebold problem, was there was no confidence from the majority of the Computer Science and Cryptography crowd that there was a way to secure the voting machines from tampering, or protecting the database from widespread fraud. That the system could be hacked from one machine with system wide effects, coupled with a lack of paper ballot back ups.

I mean, come on, when an election can be compromised by a virus or hacked by a monkey, there's something wrong.

(yes, I have a tinfoil hat on tight at times, but it's stuff like that this that make me want to keep it on really tight).

199 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:06:04pm

re: #189 wozzablog
Or in some cases, they are a cabal of extortionists who kill the very geese that laid their golden eggs by driving them into bankruptcy. Thousands of ex Eastern, Braniff, and assorted other airline employees will be able to explain it to anyone who asks.

200 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:06:37pm

re: #193 Obdicut
I'd have preferred that Congress commission the review. Or perhaps the Justice Department.

201 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:06:57pm

re: #192 albusteve

Is basic civility completely beyond you?

202 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:07:28pm

So are all/any of those recent reports of documents left behind in closed ACORN offices bogus? Has anyone disproved their authenticity? Should an organization which receives Federal funds be so blatantly political when the law specifically disallows such activity?
All of the revelations about ACORN ballot box stuffing everywhere they exist is just a matter of a few bad apples?
Sure!

203 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:09:44pm

re: #188 tradewind

...
... The review, commissioned by ACORN, found
Oh, okay.

Yes, they paid for it. That doesn't make it invalid.

204 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:09:46pm

re: #195 albusteve

the car industry killed itself because they didn't move with the times and change makes/models to fit consumer demand. The designs were terrible and the Detroit horsepower and sheer voluminous size race left them to be sliced apart by innovation and cleverer engines.

Unions fight for their members when no one else will. Unions provide healthcare to lower paid workers who wouldn't be able to get it in the market place.

Unions have benevolent funds and hardship funds for members.

What do they do aside from support Democrats?... i really couldn't tell you.

205 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:10:02pm

It's rotten from the top.

Two prominent national nonprofit groups are reeling from public disclosures that large sums of money were misappropriated in unrelated incidents by an employee and a former employee.

The groups, Acorn, one of the country’s largest community organizing groups, and the Points of Light Institute, which works to encourage civic activism and volunteering, have dealt with the problems in very different ways.

Acorn chose to treat the embezzlement of nearly $1 million eight years ago as an internal matter and did not even notify its board. After Points of Light noticed financial irregularities in early June, it took less than a month for management to alert federal prosecutors, although group officials say they have no clear idea yet what the financial impact may be.

A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization’s founder, Wade Rathke.

The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group’s board members and not to alert law enforcement.

Dale Rathke remained on Acorn’s payroll until a month ago, when disclosure of his theft by foundations and other donors forced the organization to dismiss him.

SNIP

206 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:10:47pm

re: #182 Cato the Elder
Maybe you should check the stats for charitable giving in the US. GOP identifiers give way more to charity than those who self identify as democrats. And ironically, the poorest states have some of the highest level of charitable giving.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:12:39pm

re: #181 albusteve

they help the poor so the poor will vote democrat and help perpetuate their power base...nothing new there, exploiting masses of people for votes, it's what democrats do best

Give me a damn break.

208 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:12:43pm

re: #201 Obdicut

Is basic civility completely beyond you?

according to liberals yes, of course

209 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:13:01pm
210 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:14:17pm

re: #184 cliffster

I'll say that's true, but either way they said what they said. Let's say my wife hired someone to try and get me to bed, to see if I would be loyal, and I went to bed with that person. "You set me up!" would not get much traction.

Either way, the problem I have is with a taxpayer-funded organization that so openly favors one party.

That's fair. I don't say they should get a pass for problems in the organization, criminal behavior of employees, etc., but the circumstances under which some of this came to light make me roll my eyes.

How much taxpayer funding do/did they have, and what form does it come in?

211 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:14:33pm
212 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:15:23pm

re: #186 cliffster

GOPers help the poor tremendously. They just do it with their own money.

It's only the rich they help with other people's...

213 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:16:39pm
214 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:17:24pm

re: #211 MandyManners
Any Obama supporter who tries to claim that he was not tight with ACORN is not being truthful.

215 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:17:27pm

re: #14 Charles

"Independent" was the wrong word for it -- I corrected it.

From the report:

The report, the product of a two-month investigation, said that ACORN’s management had not moved fast enough to institute reforms after an alleged eight-year cover up by ACORN founder Wade Rathke of an embezzlement by his brother.
ACORN’s leaders are "now reaping what Rathke sowed," wrote Harshbarger.


The organization stank from the head on down for 8 years.

216 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:17:34pm

re: #209 MandyManners

Fraud in 12 states.

From the article:
In addition to Ohio, ACORN employees have been accused of illegal elections practices in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Virginia among others.

And that article's from EPI, which has a clear political agenda of its own.

217 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:19:03pm

re: #185 albusteve

maybe the poor should try helping themselves instead of depending on the feds/donks/liberals who use them

I was poor once.

A religious man gave me a fish.

A Republican taught me how to fish.

A Democrat gave me a used fishing rod.

I dug up some worms and went down to the river.

A big sign said "Property of Dow Chemical; no fishing".

I helped myself to some fish anyway, because I was tired and hungry.

Now I get three meals a day in a six-by-four-foot cell.

That's how we help the poor in America.

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:19:09pm

re: #196 albusteve

not a bad idea at all...start over...good thinking

What would we do without you :)

219 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:19:43pm

re: #212 SanFranciscoZionist

It's only the rich they help with other people's...

Now, be fair: Our plutocratic overlords don't starve, no matter which of their tools is in power at any given moment.

220 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:20:11pm

re: #216 ignoranceisfatal

From the article:
In addition to Ohio, ACORN employees have been accused of illegal elections practices in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Virginia among others.

And that article's from EPI, which has a clear political agenda of its own.

yes, exposing ACORNs fraudulent activities...something wrong with that?

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:20:12pm

re: #208 albusteve

according to liberals yes, of course

Waaah, poor baby!

OK, I apologize to the group. I got annoyed and made a cheap crack about ACORN being leftist because they helped the poor (not meant as an endorsement of ACORN by the way, meant as crankiness about the self-righteous ACORN-bashing), and clearly I opened the floodgates for everyone's whiny sense of intolerance (my own included).

Note, I don't think anyone here carries a torch for ACORN. I suspect that the 'defenders' mostly, like myself, just are sick of hearing about this stupid organization's vise-like grip on the United States of America.

222 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:20:14pm

re: #216 ignoranceisfatal

EPI sponsors nonpartisan research which is conducted by independent economists at major universities around the country.

' an agenda of its own?
Not really.

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:20:20pm

re: #214 tradewind

Any Obama supporter who tries to claim that he was not tight with ACORN is not being truthful.

Duh, of course. It's good political strategy.

Still doesn't account for the gibbering lunatics and their conspiracy theories about the organization.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:20:38pm

re: #211 MandyManners

BHO campaign gave $800,000.00 to ACORN.

Isn't that supposed to go the other way around?

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:21:27pm

re: #220 albusteve

yes, exposing ACORNs fraudulent activities...something wrong with that?

There is in fact something wrong with making up total nonsense and repeating it over and over and over.

226 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:22:14pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

There is in fact something wrong with making up total nonsense and repeating it over and over and over.

Which made- up total nonsense are you speaking of, specifically?

227 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:22:57pm

re: #217 Cato the Elder

I was poor once.

A religious man gave me a fish.

A Republican taught me how to fish.

A Democrat gave me a used fishing rod.

I dug up some worms and went down to the river.

A big sign said "Property of Dow Chemical; no fishing".

I helped myself to some fish anyway, because I was tired and hungry.

Now I get three meals a day in a six-by-four-foot cell.

That's how we help the poor in America.

Let's be honest: Politically, NO ONE gives a damn about the poor. The left uses them as a reliable voting base and bloody shirt to wave at election time; the right uses them as the howling mob to be kept at bay by the forces of law and order, a warning and object-lesson in the consequences of sloth and vice. NO ONE gives a damn about it, and it's a disgrace.

228 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:23:21pm

re: #216 ignoranceisfatal

From the article:
In addition to Ohio, ACORN employees have been accused of illegal elections practices in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Virginia among others.

And that article's from EPI, which has a clear political agenda of its own.

It is a fact that ACORN employees have been CONVICTED of voter registration fraud.

229 cliffster  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:24:16pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

There is in fact something wrong with making up total nonsense and repeating it over and over and over.

There is something very wrong with denying something which is very clear, simply because that's the lockstep position of those of your political persuasion.

230 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:24:32pm

re: #227 Guanxi88

Let's be honest: Politically, NO ONE gives a damn about the poor. The left uses them as a reliable voting base and bloody shirt to wave at election time; the right uses them as the howling mob to be kept at bay by the forces of law and order, a warning and object-lesson in the consequences of sloth and vice. NO ONE gives a damn about it, and it's a disgrace.

What should be done about the poor?

231 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:25:19pm

re: #230 Capitalist Tool

i hear them FEMA camps are empty...

232 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:25:30pm

re: #223 WindUpBird
The 'gibbering lunatics ' you describe can be found more readily at ACORN offices, as shown on tape.
It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to know that bunch is rotten to the core.

233 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:26:12pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Waaah, poor baby!

OK, I apologize to the group. I got annoyed and made a cheap crack about ACORN being leftist because they helped the poor (not meant as an endorsement of ACORN by the way, meant as crankiness about the self-righteous ACORN-bashing), and clearly I opened the floodgates for everyone's whiny sense of intolerance (my own included).

Note, I don't think anyone here carries a torch for ACORN. I suspect that the 'defenders' mostly, like myself, just are sick of hearing about this stupid organization's vise-like grip on the United States of America.

I'm not whining...I could care less what you or other libs think of me, and I never said ACORN has a vice like grip on America...as far as helping the poor by private donation, I have given up a very reasonable % of my earnings and it is substantial...I'm comfortable with myself in that regard

234 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:27:03pm

re: #233 albusteve
Vice-like grip indeed.
:)

235 ignoranceisfatal  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:27:51pm

re: #228 MandyManners

re: #222 tradewind

Yes, some ACORN employees have been convicted. But you have to be careful of sources. The link you provided is from the Employment Policies Institute, which you can read all about here. They're clearly trying to trade on the name recognition of the far more esteemed Economic Policy Institute.

236 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:28:19pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

There is in fact something wrong with making up total nonsense and repeating it over and over and over.

don't know...but with regard to EPI I'll certainly consider your proof when you post it

237 Kruk  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:29:02pm

re: #231 wozzablog

i hear them FEMA camps are empty...

Maybe they know they need the space for something...

238 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:30:26pm

re: #181 albusteve

they help Corporations dodge restrictions, cater to religious fanatics to perpetuate their power, exploiting their votes with an illusion of fiscal responsibility and toughness. It's what Republicans do best.

239 tradewind  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:31:01pm

re: #235 ignoranceisfatal
Re Mandy's source:
Your source, SourceWatch, is a kind of quasi-wiki group that could never be accused of having no bias itself , and is not the most reliable since it is subject to user editing.

240 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:31:07pm

re: #230 Capitalist Tool

What should be done about the poor?

let's ask the fat cat, unionized, tenured university instructors making a 100k a year...maybe they have some solutions other than massive taxation to preserve the status quo...how do we get the poor into college when the costs are so high and flying upward faster by far than the cost of living?

241 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:32:01pm

re: #235 ignoranceisfatal

re: #222 tradewind

Yes, some ACORN employees have been convicted. But you have to be careful of sources. The link you provided is from the Employment Policies Institute, which you can read all about here. They're clearly trying to trade on the name recognition of the far more esteemed Economic Policy Institute.

BFD.

242 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:32:38pm

re: #238 rurality

they help Corporations dodge restrictions, cater to religious fanatics to perpetuate their power, exploiting their votes with an illusion of fiscal responsibility and toughness. It's what Republicans do best.

I'm not a Republican...why are you addressing me?

243 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:34:23pm

re: #230 Capitalist Tool

What should be done about the poor?

They should be left alone, at a minimum, and treated with the simple human dignity that they deserve. They should be able to keep the wages they earn, and should be secure in their property.

They should NOT be flooded with charitable largesse - it saps the will and is humiliating. The disgrace of our economy is that it is a better deal for them to be bought (or hired, if you will) by the welfare state than it is for them to work. This must change, which means reform of social welfare AND labor laws. The minimum wage is a cruel joke and a farce; I do not think raising it would do much good, but it's a disgrace that so many people could not house and feed themselves from the takings of a 40 hour work week.

The poor are the primary victims of criminal offenses; their neighborhoods should be flooded with police presence and police protection. I've lived in some terribly poor neighborhoods, and the attitude of the police was appalling, to say the least. As if the thugs selling crack on the corner were my fault, or as if the neighbors invited them.

It's appalling and revolting to me that we have no widespread, secondary education system equipping and training non-college-bound students for productive lives. It's absurd that we have seemingly unlimited funding for photo-journalism and interpretive dance majors seeking a BA or higher, but cannot scrape together anything like enough money to train plumbers, welders, and electricians. A return to skilled labor and the trades would revolutionize this country's economy and social system in one generation. Greater funding needs to go toward vocational education and training.

Unions need to revitalize their own training systems and revive their guild and craft traditions. There's no reason they couldn't train their own future members; low-interest loans for purchases of tools might not be a bad idea.

Poor people aren't poor because they're lazy, or because they don't want to work. They're poor because the work they are trained for is pointless and pays nothing. They're not stupid, but rather, they know there's no sense in killing yourself at a terrible job for a benefit that is (at best) marginally better than social welfare payments.

And don't even get me started on the penal system and the waste of lives it causes.

244 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:34:24pm

let's all kiss and make up and move up to a climategate thread

245 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:35:05pm

Please don't do the liberal vs. conservative are more charitable farce. Both groups are charitable- if anything there is a tendency for conservatives to like private and religious organizations to spread their charity and a tendency for liberals to think the government or NGO's can do it better.

The sh-t slinging is useless and aggrivating for anyone trying to have a substantive discussion.

...Of course you may ask why do I come to the internet looking for a substantive discussion but that's a personal issue ;-)

246 albusteve  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:35:41pm

re: #243 Guanxi88

well said...thanks for that

247 rurality  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:35:59pm

re: #242 albusteve

Didn't say you were. Thought your portrait of Dems. needed a similar sketch of R.s

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:36:17pm

Oh, BTW, for those asking about conservative orgs and federal funding, here's some info.

To give perspective, as of this spring, ACORN had received 53 million since 1994.

Repeating: not saying they should get a penny more, but providing some perspective.

249 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:37:28pm

re: #237Kruk

Seeing as the teabaggers are now throwing themselves over the cliff they can even remove the padded cells...

250 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:38:03pm

re: #244 albusteve

let's all kiss and make up and move up to a climategate thread


I am not kissing a lusy lib... cons... indep...

what are you anyway? /

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:38:15pm

re: #233 albusteve

I'm not whining...I could care less what you or other libs think of me, and I never said ACORN has a vice like grip on America...as far as helping the poor by private donation, I have given up a very reasonable % of my earnings and it is substantial...I'm comfortable with myself in that regard

So much for civility...or reading comprehension. Oh well, carry on.

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:38:55pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

391 million for ABSTINENCE. That's getting brought up again. It's like paying people to not teach. Including everyone's favorite scumbag, Pat Robertson!

253 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:40:28pm

re: #252 WindUpBird

391 million for ABSTINENCE. That's getting brought up again. It's like paying people to not teach. Including everyone's favorite scumbag, Pat Robertson!

He's not MY favorite scumbag. Pat Buchanan won that particular title, and we hung his jersey up in the rafters.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:40:35pm

re: #240 albusteve

let's ask the fat cat, unionized, tenured university instructors making a 100k a year...maybe they have some solutions other than massive taxation to preserve the status quo...how do we get the poor into college when the costs are so high and flying upward faster by far than the cost of living?

100K a year in a university town with ultra-high cost of living isn't exactly what I'd call rich.

Find me a house you can afford to buy in the Bay on that salary.

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:42:00pm

re: #253 Guanxi88

He's not MY favorite scumbag. Pat Buchanan won that particular title, and we hung his jersey up in the rafters.

haha and he shows up to call games from the booth every so often :D

(I admit it, I'd watch if Pat Buchanan was the color guy during the NBA finals)

256 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:42:17pm

re: #254 WindUpBird

100K a year in a university town with ultra-high cost of living isn't exactly what I'd call rich.

Find me a house you can afford to buy in the Bay on that salary.

If you can find a teaching gig that pays in that range, I've got a few folk I know who'd give their eye-teeth for it. University instructors are notoriously underpaid. Factor in the VERY high cost of living in a university town, and they're lumpen-intellectuals.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:42:26pm

re: #252 WindUpBird

391 million for ABSTINENCE. That's getting brought up again. It's like paying people to not teach. Including everyone's favorite scumbag, Pat Robertson!

Yes. It's a pet right-wing cause, with no science behind it, lavishly funded with federal money, pouring funds into a wide variety of half-assed organizations.

258 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:43:14pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

haha and he shows up to call games from the booth every so often :D

(I admit it, I'd watch if Pat Buchanan was the color guy during the NBA finals)

Could you imagine? It'd be a cross between Jimmy the Greek and UFC Ultimate Smackdown. I'd pay to watch, and I'm a cheap SOB.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:43:59pm

re: #256 Guanxi88

If you can find a teaching gig that pays in that range, I've got a few folk I know who'd give their eye-teeth for it. University instructors are notoriously underpaid. Factor in the VERY high cost of living in a university town, and they're lumpen-intellectuals.

One of my high-school friends teaches college writing. She hopes to someday become a fat cat and get paid maybe 80 thou. In the meantime, she and her husband live in married student housing with their toddler, and eat a lot of noodles.

260 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:45:38pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my high-school friends teaches college writing. She hopes to someday become a fat cat and get paid maybe 80 thou. In the meantime, she and her husband live in married student housing with their toddler, and eat a lot of noodles.

It's the flip-side of the lack of dignity we afford to labor, the treatment of intellectuals and instructors. Shows a rot at the heart of our thinking, as if we're all supposed to be importing and selling widgets or doing marketing for those who do, or building widget-fan websites and such. You can't build or sustain a culture, never mind a civilization, on commerce alone.

261 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:49:47pm

re: #211 MandyManners

BHO campaign gave $800,000.00 to ACORN.

There's a difference between helping the poor and being a mutually beneficial/financial campaign arm to one particular political party.
And a voter fraud enterprise. oops - I mean "get out the vote" entity.

I'm all for helping the poor.

262 Cato the Elder  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:52:24pm

re: #260 Guanxi88

It's the flip-side of the lack of dignity we afford to labor, the treatment of intellectuals and instructors. Shows a rot at the heart of our thinking, as if we're all supposed to be importing and selling widgets or doing marketing for those who do, or building widget-fan websites and such. You can't build or sustain a culture, never mind a civilization, on commerce alone.

Mega-updings!

I am a freelance writer/editor/translator. I do pretty well but my last regular editing job for a newsletter publisher was axed in early 2008. They decided the high-five-figure sum I earned wasn't worth the embarrassment I saved them when their underpaid staff writers came out with things like "this deal is not for you and I" or "lets take a closer look" or "that is a mute question".

And you know what? In the case of ephemera like that, their calculation was entirely right.

But I was out of a job.

And it's not just ephemera that doesn't get edited anymore. Have you read a textbook lately? I'm surprised airplanes don't fall out of the sky, because I can't imagine they're paying real mathematicians to check engineering formulae.

263 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:56:43pm

re: #243 Guanxi88

You're on fire today. Bravo.

264 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 2:57:54pm

re: #263 FrogMarch

You're on fire today. Bravo.

Thank you. The dignity of labor and the rot at the heart of the West's thinking about these things are two topics near and dear to me. I live here, after all.

Never took it seriously till I had kids. Changes everything.

265 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:03:02pm

re: #264 Guanxi88

Thank you. The dignity of labor and the rot at the heart of the West's thinking about these things are two topics near and dear to me. I live here, after all.

Never took it seriously till I had kids. Changes everything.

Yes. The rot is a real problem and that rot is going to come home to roost.

266 limewash  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:26:49pm

re: #69 albusteve

Er,
Diebold machines are purchased with public funds as well so for some reason Acorn has more hysteria on MSM than the Diebold machines.

[Link: www.bradblog.com...]

267 Abdul Abulbul Amir  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 3:33:04pm

Scott Harshbarger is the low like that railroaded the Amirault child abuse case. That man is unfit for for any public service and his trustworthiness is zero.

268 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:34:29pm

re: #1 WindUpBird

Aaaand cue the ACORN hate-for-all...now!

What's not to love? Phony voters? Check. Multiple registrations under various names of real persons? Check. Shell games with financing? Check, check, and check. This is an organization to make every Chicagoan-at-heart proud.

Take, by contrast, little stories of true community organizing. Here and there, volunteers staff safe-ride-home programs for those who have drunk more than they planned and find themselves stranded at the bar. This saves lives. What does ACORN save? What tangible works do they have, other than a tainted registration drive?

Oh, and it's not a Bill of Attainder when Congress de-funds a program. Congress can fund a program, or not fund it, for any reason or for none at all. Much of what they do fund is funded without any real reason that they would care to name, after all.

269 FrogMarch  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:35:49pm

re: #267 Abdul Abulbul Amir

Scott Harshbarger is the low like that railroaded the Amirault child abuse case. That man is unfit for for any public service and his trustworthiness is zero.

Certainly Scott Harshbarger is a big progressive causes democrat.

270 gamark  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:40:44pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

By virtue of helping the poor, I suppose ACORN must be a left-wing organization


Helping the poor with other people's money. Numerous studies of charitable giving show that people on the political right are more generous with their own money than people on the left. Financial disclosure forms filled out by politicians tend to bear that out as well.

271 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:49:47pm

re: #240 albusteve

let's ask the fat cat, unionized, tenured university instructors making a 100k a year...maybe they have some solutions other than massive taxation to preserve the status quo...how do we get the poor into college when the costs are so high and flying upward faster by far than the cost of living?

(1) Textbooks cost too much. From the top down, Universities need to make containing this cost a priority.

(2) The armed forces do, after all, provide college benefits. A poor person can earn the gratitude of the nation, and when they're done, they've got the backing to attend any number of reasonably priced state universities.
With the maturity that people tend to acquire in the service, this path to college is a good bet to result in an actual earned degree.


(3) College really isn't for everyone. About one-third of the population has that mix of intelligence and drive needed to take good advantage of college. Some of this third with the native ability lack any sort of adequate foundation, and for these, the path to college is either closed, or it takes an arduous route through remedial prep school.

(4) The other two thirds of the population matters! College isn't the answer, but most people who aren't the college type have a knack for one kind of work or another and could become skilled workers given some good training. Skilled workers are in far shorter supply than marginal sociology majors, and, not to be crass or anything, but they earn more too. In fact, a good plumber is likely to make more than a non-fat-cat, unionized university instructor. The men and women who carry the bulk of the introductory teaching load are a proletariat of the academy, earning quite modest sums, if they earn more than tuition and fees and a stipend, which is the usual lot of grad students.

As to the higher ranks, 100K isn't unusual in the higher ranks of any comparable profession. Shall the professors at a medical school make peanuts compared to their recent graduates? What will that do to the quality of instruction, if that becomes the rule?

272 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 4:55:49pm

re: #23 Locker

Because they commissioned it with an independent reviewer? I don't think the entity commissioning a study, poll or other data review affects the independence, it's the entity who is performing the study, poll or data review.

Basically if the reviewer is clean then then the review should be clean.

I wasn't questioning the results. Just the description.

273 Locker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 5:11:37pm

re: #268 lostlakehiker

Gee you figure with all that talking you'd know how to use google:

[Link:acorn.org... ]

274 abolitionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:00:52pm
...laying much of the blame on founder Wade Rathke for lax oversight and dangerously rapid growth.

Masterfully understated.

[Link: www.acornintl.net...]
[Link: biggovernment.com...]
The Future of Wade Rathke and ACORN, Part I by Michael Volpe

People that know him, and know him well, have described him as an “organic genius” and a “diabolical genius”. He’s become a lightning rod and a polarizing figure, and he’s at the center of a national debate. Wade Rathke is the former long time CEO, or Chief Organizer, of ACORN, the Association for Community Organizations for Reform Now. He’s now running Community Organizations International, the former ACORN International.

[Link: acorn.org...]

Community organizing, applying the philosophy of Saul Alinsky and other progressive thinkers, began in many Asian countries in the early 1970s, just as it did in the United States.
275 Kewalo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:03:27pm

re: #222 tradewind

' an agenda of its own?
Not really.


The Employment Policies Institute (EPI) is one of several front groups created by Berman & Co., a Washington, DC public affairs firm owned by Rick Berman, who lobbies for the restaurant, hotel, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. While most commonly referred to as EPI, it is registered as a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization under the name of Employment Policies Institute Foundation. In its annual Internal Revenue Service return, EPI states that it "shares office space with Berman & Company on a cost pass through basis". [1]
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

I'd say they had an agenda of their own.

276 steelerjoe  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:31:24pm

Isn't it odd how this politico article from 9/22/09 revealed that Harshbarger was a Democrat and the former head of Common Cause but the one from today didn't? I wonder why?

It's not even an external review...

277 stayfrosty  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:36:50pm

So why were they caught destroying so many documents at offices all across the nation again?

278 andres  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 6:40:27pm

re: #273 Locker

Excuse him, he's busy copy & pasting.

/

re: #271 lostlakehiker

In many aspects you are right. But also add non-teaching staff to the equation. These people also help run the university, and you need to pay competitive salaries & benefits to keep them.

Also, college/university isn't the answer to everyone. I believe that forcing everyone into college/university is the wrong choice for some people. Some might get more from technical short courses.

279 steelerjoe  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:38:45pm

Scorsese should make a documentary about ACORN. Goodfellas, Casino, and ACORN!

280 lostlakehiker  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:52:01pm

re: #58 RogueOne

And does ACORN do anything for Porcaro? Most unlikely. The ruling structure at ACORN, and its rank and file, bristle at people like her. The nerve, trying to make your own way.

The IRS (in combination with other branches of government) shafts politically unconnected rich folk too. I know of an elderly woman who inherited a couple of million dollars worth of land in Washington state along with a few hundred thousand in cash. The IRS took all the cash as its share. The EPA then zoned her land "protected". She couldn't pay the taxes on the land because the IRS had all her cash, and she couldn't sell it because it was all of a sudden wetlands, or elephant habitat (make up something anything reasons.) She lost it all. The state then sold it to various connected folk, and the feds corrected the BS land classification. The woman ended up with nothing, zip, nada. Picked clean to the bone by the various authorities. All legal and proper.

281 amrafel  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:35pm

When Hannity said that the fake rally footage that Fox showed was unintentional, Mr. Johnson rightly expressed skepticism.
Mr. Johnson, what has happened to your skepticism?
If X pays for Y to conduct a study, and Y concludes in X's favor, warning bells should start ringin.'

Or maybe you ARE skeptical, and simply decided to report the findings as objectively as possible. Objective reporting is a dying art, you know. (wry grin.)

282 Mike DeGuzman  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 7:51:30am

“Surprise, surprise, surprise!”
- Gomer Pyle, USMC


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

TwitterFacebook

Turn off all ads for a full year by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day (per month) or 22 cents a day (per year), our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form
LGF Pages

This button leads to the main index of LGF Pages, our user-submitted articles. You can post your own LGF Pages simply by registering a free account with us.

Create a Page

This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.

Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.

Last updated: 2014-03-07 2:19 pm PST

LGF User's Guide
Recent Pages
FemNaziBitch
History of Leniency: NFL Domestic Cases Under Goodell
As the league faces a firestorm of outrage over how it handled recent cases, USA TODAY Sports looked at every case in which an NFL player was accused of domestic abuse since NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell took office eight ...

2 minutes ago
Views: 16 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
Lumberhead
Ted Nugent Unloads on African-American ‘Thugs’ in Horribly Racist Column About Ferguson
Rocker, right-wing polemicist, and Republican campaigner Ted Nugent has launched yet another racist tirade, penning a column in which he assails "Ferguson thugs" and a purported "plague of black violence" and demands that African-Americans stop supporting liberal politicians. Nugent's ...

23 minutes ago
Views: 45 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
Romantic Heretic
AR GOP AG Candidate Removed From Voting Rolls For Voter Fraud
Arkansas Republican Attorney General candidate, Leslie Rutledge, is removed from the voting rolls due to the fact that she registered in multiple states as well as sent in an absentee ballot for the 2008 election. Hilariously, the Republican National Lawyers ...

2 hours, 1 minute ago
Views: 92 • Comments: 3
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
Randall Gross
Cisco Bulks Up Branch Routers for Cloud
Normally I don't post new equipment PR, but this is significantly new due to the hybrid wireless network functionality. Cisco is fortifying its ISR branch routers to give users more options when accessing cloud services and backing up primary links. ...

4 hours, 27 minutes ago
Views: 74 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
I Stand With Big Sodomy!
School spending by affluent is widening wealth gap
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Education is supposed to help bridge the gap between the wealthiest people and everyone else. Ask the experts, and they'll count the ways Preschool can lift children from poverty. Top high schools prepare students for college. ...

1 day, 20 hours ago
Views: 151 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Skip Intro
Supreme Court Grants Ohio’s Request to Shorten Early-Voting Period - LA Times
The Supreme Court ordered a halt Monday to early voting in Ohio that was scheduled to begin this week, clearing the way for the state to close polls on the Sunday before election day, when African American turnout has ...

1 day, 22 hours ago
Views: 220 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 13 • Rating: 2
HamSandwich
Activist who urged killing Israelis nominated for top EU award
Alaa Abdel Fattah, 32, an Egyptian blogger and political activist, has been arrested numerous times by Egyptian authorities since the eruption of a popular revolution in the country in early 2011. Abdel Fattah, who boasts 626,000 followers on Twitter ...

3 days, 12 hours ago
Views: 312 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
Rightwingconspirator
Visiting Mt Wilson And It’s Dramatic Weather
All taken just yesterday. Canon 7D and a Tamron lens. The clouds ripping through were just amazing. And some stunning Fall color in unexpected places

3 days, 14 hours ago
Views: 297 • Comments: 5
Tweets: 2 • Rating: 6
Souliren
Dropkick Murphys - Celtic punk from the USA?
I never heard of these guys until a half hour ago. Apparently they are famous. A Celtic punk band from Massachusetts? There is art here. The Rose Tattoo I'm shipping up to Boston.

5 days, 14 hours ago
Views: 531 • Comments: 17
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 6
CriticalDragon1177
Secular Talk - Limbaugh’s Sidekick: Segregation Was The ‘Good Ole’ Days’ (Video)
KYle Kulinski, exposes the stupidity of "Snerdley,"

1 week ago
Views: 894 • Comments: 12
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 3
 Frank says:

Don't mind your make-up, you'd better make your mind up.