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Book of the Week: Climate Cover-Up, The Crusade to Deny Global Warming

Environment • Views: 3,018

Here’s a new book I highly recommend to anyone interested in learning about the deceptive personalities and industry-funded groups behind the flood of global warming denial propaganda: Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming, by James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore.

Hoggan and Littlemore are two of the writers at DeSmogBlog, an excellent source for credible information on global warming, and a tireless debunker of the denial industry. Warning: reading their well-documented book may make you angry, when you realize how much you’ve been lied to, about one of the most important issues of our time.

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207 comments

1 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:26:42pm

Interesting cover. A guy in a rowboat in the sand.

2 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:27:59pm

Desertification

3 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:28:02pm

re: #1 Mich-again

Interesting cover. A guy in a rowboat in the sand.

Remind me of the (late) Aral Sea.

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:28:17pm

I think a good place for some people to get an idea of the lying, dishonest tactics of the denier industry would be to review this video:

Video: 'The Big Swindle Movie'

That was the video that convinced me something was wrong, and I needed to re-examine my position on climate change.

5 jaunte  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:29:36pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Remind me of the (late) Aral Sea.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

6 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:30:12pm

New word alert in a review..

Anti-science (or agnotology), seeks to cover-up or obscure science considered inconvenient, or at least create doubt in the minds of public and decision-makers. It seeks to replace knowledge with ignorance, and has no resemblance to normal arguments within science, by scientists.

Not to be confused with Agnewtology, the study of poor vice presidential choices.

7 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:30:18pm

Now if only there were time to do something about global warming...

/being a downer, as usual. ):

8 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:30:55pm

re: #7 laZardo

Now if only there were time to do something about global warming...

/being a downer, as usual. ):

Move to high ground!

9 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:31:47pm

There's a pretty determined effort going on in the right wing blogosphere to discredit me because I used to be a "skeptic" on this subject.

I hope they continue with this effort, because what they're really achieving is to show that people can change their minds when confronted with overwhelming evidence.

10 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:33:30pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Remind me of the (late) Aral Sea.

Well, half of it anyway.

11 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:35:32pm

re: #2 Bagua

Desertification

China already has a bad problem with that. And I'm guessing parts of Australia too. But if global warming continues unabated, won't there be an overall rise in sea levels? I'm not sure exactly what the prognosis is for the areas on the globe that will undergo desertification in light of the rising sea levels. I'm guessing desertification will seem like a minor problem when the alternative is being underwater.

12 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:37:05pm

re: #11 Mich-again

Rising levels of saltwater as compared to freshwater, and life heading out more toward the coasts?

13 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:37:18pm

re: #11 Mich-again

Equally uninhabitable, and bereft of food drinkable water or benefit. It's easier to move a home than a farm.

14 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:37:55pm

re: #9 Charles

There's a pretty determined effort going on in the right wing blogosphere to discredit me because I used to be a "skeptic" on this subject.

I hope they continue with this effort, because what they're really achieving is to show that people can change their minds when confronted with overwhelming evidence.

I applaud you for your efforts, sir.

I, on the other hand, never change my mind.

Wait, on second thought yes I do.

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:38:38pm

re: #12 laZardo

Rising levels of saltwater as compared to freshwater, and life heading out more toward the coasts?

We shall take to the seas in big-ass houseboats, and grow hydroponic vegetables onboard.

I think it could work.

/For God's sake, don't try to explain the problems with this to me. I'm enjoying the image.

16 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:38:49pm

re: #9 Charles

You may get the last laugh. Most of them will have to change their minds about who to vote for President. As in Not Sarah.

17 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:40:25pm

re: #9 Charles

There's a pretty determined effort going on in the right wing blogosphere to discredit me because I used to be a "skeptic" on this subject.

I hope they continue with this effort, because what they're really achieving is to show that people can change their minds when confronted with overwhelming evidence.

And they call global warming a "religion" mocking it as a theory based on faith alone. Somehow, it's ok to do that with creationism, though.

There really is no question that C02 emissions from man causes warming. I think there is still room to debate how much warming we'll have.

18 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:40:26pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

We shall take to the seas in big-ass houseboats, and grow hydroponic vegetables onboard.

I think it could work.

/For God's sake, don't try to explain the problems with this to me. I'm enjoying the image.

Well, Racer X did think Waterworld was a good movie.

/braces

19 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:40:35pm

re: #11 Mich-again

China already has a bad problem with that. And I'm guessing parts of Australia too. But if global warming continues unabated, won't there be an overall rise in sea levels? I'm not sure exactly what the prognosis is for the areas on the globe that will undergo desertification in light of the rising sea levels. I'm guessing desertification will seem like a minor problem when the alternative is being underwater.

Only low lying areas would flood, including unfortunately many heavily populated areas. Other inland areas that are now fertile could become arid with the loss of glacial melts and other such changes. The resulting desertification would be very destabilising if it occurred in "bread basket" farming regions.

20 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:41:32pm

re: #6 Mich-again

New word alert in a review..


Not to be confused with Agnewtology, the study of poor vice presidential choices.

Palintology also covers that subject

21 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:41:55pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

We shall take to the seas in big-ass houseboats, and grow hydroponic vegetables onboard.

Might be the only time in history when the answer to the question "Does my ass look big?" should be "Why, yes it does!"

//

22 Gaius Obvious  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:44:09pm

If we only could extract CO2 from the atmosphere, separate out the carbon from the oxygen (because oxygen is useful) and store the carbon, preferably as a solid (since gaseous CO2 is notoriously difficult to contain over millennia), preferably underground where it would be protected from accidental conflagration. That would solve the problem. Take carbon from the atmosphere and store it underground as solid carbon. That would seem to make coal. And if that makes coal, then why are we digging up the solution to the problem and reversing it?

23 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:44:42pm
24 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:45:14pm

re: #12 laZardo

Rising levels of saltwater as compared to freshwater, and life heading out more toward the coasts?

The ice is fresh water. When it melts it affects the salinity of the oceans which disrupts ocean currents. I have read an interesting theory that says the first casualty of global warming will be Northern Europe. As the story goes there will be a deep freeze there from the changing ocean currents.

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:45:36pm

re: #23 Arizona Angler

Piss off.

26 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:45:56pm

re: #23 Arizona Angler

3...2...1...

27 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:46:01pm

re: #18 laZardo

Well, Racer X did think Waterworld was a good movie.

/braces

Oh. Shit.

It all makes sense now.

28 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:46:17pm

re: #23 Arizona Angler

Rule 1: Driver of the car picks the radio station. Anybody who objects can walk.

29 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:46:21pm

re: #23 Arizona Angler

CUL8TER!

30 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:46:34pm

re: #11 Mich-again

[...]

I'm guessing desertification will seem like a minor problem when the alternative is being underwater.

Minor or major would vary by region. In an area such as Bangladesh a rise in sea level would be traumatic, ditto any Island Nations. A developed country like the US may be better able to move larger population, but a loss of farming could be a larger problem.

On the one hand, the wealthier nations are more able to move because of greater resources, on the other hand, they have more to move.

31 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:47:00pm

Tiger's next girlfriend?

[Link: www.funny-games.biz...]

32 jaunte  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:47:08pm

re: #28 SteveC

He's tuned in to Spencer's all-jihad radio by now.

33 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:47:35pm

re: #26 brookly red

3...2...1...

I'll go put the charcoal on the grill. We've got a flouncer to roast.

34 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:47:46pm

re: #26 brookly red

3...2...1...

Splash one bogie! No chute, no chute!

35 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:48:08pm

re: #26 brookly red

3...2...1...

awww I only got as far as 2... freakin vista!

36 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:48:34pm

re: #31 _RememberTonyC

Tiger's next girlfriend?

[Link: www.funny-games.biz...]

Portia de Rossi more like.

37 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:49:24pm

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

I'll go put the charcoal on the grill. We've got a flouncer to roast.

dude, no more charcoal, get used to it.

38 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:49:28pm

re: #30 Bagua

On the 3rd hand, soon we'll be calling it Dover instead of Champagne.

/because it's only called Champagne if it's made there, I know, I know... q;

39 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:50:03pm

re: #37 brookly red

dude, no more charcoal, get used to it.

How about a really big magnifying glass?

40 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:51:15pm

re: #36 Racer X

Portia de Rossi more like.

LOL

41 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:51:21pm

re: #19 Bagua

The resulting desertification would be very destabilising if it occurred in "bread basket" farming regions.

True. And I might add the same thing could happen from an economic collapse as well. If money is worth nothing why go through the effort to grow food to exchange it for money. So we need to find a balance between reducing carbon emissions and killing the economy trying.

42 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:51:22pm

re: #39 BryanS

That would get the solar power tax deduction.

43 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:51:27pm

re: #31 _RememberTonyC

Tiger's next girlfriend?

[Link: www.funny-games.biz...]

She's his type of blonde, I'll say that. Nice face, decent body, from what can be seen. Kissing a girl with a tongue like that would be interesting, so I'd try to get another pretty girl to test her out first.

/I'm a guy, sometimes I can't help it.

44 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:52:02pm

re: #39 BryanS

How about a really big magnifying glass?

not sure about that... might make some folks nervous.

45 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:53:03pm

re: #38 laZardo

On the 3rd hand, soon we'll be calling it Dover instead of Champagne.

/because it's only called Champagne if it's made there, I know, I know... q;

Sacrilege!

Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée!

46 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:53:03pm

If we are as close to the tipping point as we are being told, shouldn't we all be hoping that the current 2 or 3 year cooling trend continues for another 15 or 20 years? I know I am.

47 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:53:04pm

re: #37 brookly red

dude, no more charcoal, get used to it.

We can get an free carbon credit, given how many denier trolls we grill. ;)

48 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:53:17pm

I hear a raucous downstairs...

49 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:53:58pm

re: #39 BryanS

How about a really big magnifying glass?

It doesn't have to be that big

50 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:54:11pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

I have hydrogen torches at work. Plenty hot, ZERO pollution.

51 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:54:19pm

re: #48 bosforus

That would be my little brother, who has recently gotten himself back into World of Warcraft and is celebrating his return.

/ :B

52 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:55:37pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

We can get an free carbon credit, given how many denier trolls we grill. ;)

nope BBQ is now illegal, deal with it.

53 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:55:38pm

re: #50 Rightwingconspirator

I have hydrogen torches at work. Plenty hot, ZERO pollution.

Just be careful, or...the humanity!

54 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:56:09pm

re: #49 SteveC

It doesn't have to be that big

Pretty cool contraption.

55 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:56:20pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

She's his type of blonde, I'll say that. Nice face, decent body, from what can be seen. Kissing a girl with a tongue like that would be interesting, so I'd try to get another pretty girl to test her out first.

/I'm a guy, sometimes I can't help it.

it's OK, dawg. I can sympathize

56 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:56:35pm

re: #24 Mich-again

The ice is fresh water. When it melts it affects the salinity of the oceans which disrupts ocean currents. I have read an interesting theory that says the first casualty of global warming will be Northern Europe. As the story goes there will be a deep freeze there from the changing ocean currents.

You are correct, the warm surface waters will submerge before warming Europe. That why climate change is a better name, some area's may actually get cooler.

57 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:56:37pm

re: #52 brookly red

That depends on if denier trolls are a sustainable resource.

58 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:56:42pm

re: #51 laZardo

It's always nice to get back into the familiarity of a solid video game. Gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.

59 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:57:27pm

re: #57 laZardo

That depends on if denier trolls are a sustainable resource.

You have doubts?

60 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:59:22pm

If it is true that the hole in the ozone layer near the south pole has been responsible for the recent Antarctic cooling trend, then shouldn't we try to figure out how to punch a hole in the ozone layer over the north pole?
Quick, bring back the spray cans before it's too late!

61 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 8:59:38pm

re: #59 BryanS

Well, there is a possibility that we could run out of denier trolls. Then we'd have to find a renewable source of them.

/ O:

62 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:00:12pm

re: #54 BryanS

Pretty cool contraption.

Run to the nearest big-box retailer and buy a sheet magnifier. Works just as well! (Not that I would know...)

63 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:00:13pm

re: #57 laZardo

That depends on if denier trolls are a sustainable resource.

open registration...

and please cut with the denier crap, sounds like infidel & really doesn't help.

64 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:00:27pm

re: #61 laZardo

Well, there is a possibility that we could run out of denier trolls. Then we'd have to find a renewable source of them.

/ O:

Creationists, then?

65 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:01:56pm

re: #58 bosforus

It's always nice to get back into the familiarity of a solid video game. Gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.

If we were talking about that kind of video game. Unfortunately, I was talking about World of Warcraft. D8

66 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:02:06pm

re: #53 laZardo

Just ask FBV!

Oh darn, not in the thread tonight.

67 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:02:14pm

re: #24 Mich-again

The ice is fresh water. When it melts it affects the salinity of the oceans which disrupts ocean currents. I have read an interesting theory that says the first casualty of global warming will be Northern Europe. As the story goes there will be a deep freeze there from the changing ocean currents.

So after Big Ben turns into a giant popcicle, do we have time to say "Oh, Shit... well, our bad!" or are we pretty much screwed at that point?

68 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:04:44pm

re: #41 Mich-again

True. And I might add the same thing could happen from an economic collapse as well. If money is worth nothing why go through the effort to grow food to exchange it for money. So we need to find a balance between reducing carbon emissions and killing the economy trying.

Of course, wars, pollution, neglect, over population... The Haitians destroyed their island without temperature change being a factor. The Bangladeshis and a good part of Africa are a calamity that has its own causes and a not so promising future regardless of the climate.

69 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:06:37pm

re: #56 avanti

That why climate change is a better name, some area's may actually get cooler.

Agreed.

70 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:07:08pm

re: #68 Bagua

Of course, wars, pollution, neglect, over population... The Haitians destroyed their island without temperature change being a factor. The Bangladeshis and a good part of Africa are a calamity that has its own causes and a not so promising future regardless of the climate.

Haiti is only half the island...

71 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:07:19pm

re: #63 brookly red

open registration...

All Lizards report to the Armory, we're issuing Hats and Bats

72 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:08:03pm

re: #70 brookly red

Haiti is only half the island...

Yes, that is the half that is destroyed.

73 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:09:21pm

re: #71 SteveC

Cluebats? Snark repellent?

74 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:09:35pm

re: #9 Charles

There's a pretty determined effort going on in the right wing blogosphere to discredit me because I used to be a "skeptic" on this subject.

I hope they continue with this effort, because what they're really achieving is to show that people can change their minds when confronted with overwhelming evidence.

That and they're showing how entrenched, inflexible, and close-minded they are, even when there is evidence that contradicts their position.

75 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:09:50pm

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Cluebats? Snark repellent?

Martyr Boots

76 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:09:51pm

Its supposed to snow tonight in Malibu.

77 darthstar  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:09:52pm

re: #1 Mich-again

Interesting cover. A guy in a rowboat in the sand.

You can't tell a book by it's cover, unless of course that book happens to be Going Rogue...

78 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:10:02pm

re: #72 Bagua

Yes, that is the half that is destroyed.

/cause they speak French :)

79 BryanS  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:10:15pm

re: #67 SteveC

So after Big Ben turns into a giant popcicle, do we have time to say "Oh, Shit... well, our bad!" or are we pretty much screwed at that point?

Pretty much. Shutting down the oceanic heat conveyor belt would be catastrophic. So much of civilization lives in northern latitudes that are warmer that otherwise would be without them.

80 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:10:35pm

re: #72 Bagua

Yes, that is the half that is already destroyed.

/well, it is Haiti.

81 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:11:26pm

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Cluebats? Snark repellent?

Hats and Bats = police slang for helmets and batons

//Spear and Magic Helmet!

82 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:11:32pm

re: #71 SteveC

All Lizards report to the Armory, we're issuing Hats and Bats

We're also gonna need alot more charcoal. I'll stop in at Walmart tomorrow and pick some up.

83 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:11:50pm

re: #81 SteveC

Hats and Bats = police slang for helmets and batons

//Spear and Magic Helmet!

Lighting bolt! Lighting bolt!

/it's late, I'm tired.

84 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:12:18pm

re: #81 SteveC

My bad I was adding to the list.

85 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:12:19pm

re: #9 Charles

There's a pretty determined effort going on in the right wing blogosphere to discredit me because I used to be a "skeptic" on this subject.

I hope they continue with this effort, because what they're really achieving is to show that people can change their minds when confronted with overwhelming evidence.

I've been asking this question around the threads tonight, if you are still watching, maybe you would answer. In your opinion, what is, or is there a difference between a AGW "skeptic" and a "denier?"

Or anyone who wants to chime in, serious question.

86 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:12:35pm

re: #81 SteveC

Hats and Bats = police slang for helmets and batons

//Spear and Magic Helmet!

KILL THE WABBIT! KILL THE WABBIT! KILL THE WABBIT!

87 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:12:55pm

re: #77 darthstar

You can't tell a book by it's cover, unless of course that book happens to be Going Rogue...

cheap shot.

88 SteveC  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:13:19pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

KILL THE WABBIT! KILL THE WABBIT! KILL THE WABBIT!

Magic Helmet?

MAGIC HELMET!

89 originalspin  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:13:47pm

The bread basket would move north. Wine grapes were grown in England in the early medieval.

The climate has always changed. The only difference is that now man wants to claim credit for it.

The thing I really doubt is the need for panic. If the 'warmists' urgency is correct it is already correct.

Government funded research is at least partly motivated to get more funding. And what better way can you think of for a politician to justify the swelling of government power into our most private choices of life style?

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:02pm

re: #61 laZardo

Well, there is a possibility that we could run out of denier trolls. Then we'd have to find a renewable source of them.

/ O:

We're running low on evolution denier trolls. The AGW ones could also run out.

91 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:38pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

We're also gonna need alot more charcoal. I'll stop in at Walmart tomorrow and pick some up.

/you didn't get the DEP report? there is no more charcoal...

92 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:38pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I'd say I consider someone a skeptic only up to the point before they've read one of the very compelling blogs or sites on the topic-- like skepticalscience or realclimate or the one Charles posted earlier.

If they've read those sites and still choose to disbelieve, then they're a denier.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:42pm

re: #76 Racer X

Its supposed to snow tonight in Malibu.

It's freezing in the Bay Area. We're getting snow in spots.

94 solomonpanting  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:54pm

re: #77 darthstar

You can't tell a book by it's cover, unless of course that book happens to be Going Rogue...

I hear Biden is coming out with his book--Going Rogaine.

95 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:14:59pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I would think of a denier as a person who denies in the face of facts they ignore or also deny. A skeptic would be a person still learning he facts of the matter with a skeptical attitude but a willingness to look further honestly.

96 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:15:11pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I've been asking this question around the threads tonight, if you are still watching, maybe you would answer. In your opinion, what is, or is there a difference between a AGW "skeptic" and a "denier?"

Or anyone who wants to chime in, serious question.

I'll bite. Not sure if this fits but a skeptic is to an agnostic as denier is to an atheist. I'm not insinuating a religious reasoning for any of this however.

97 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:15:43pm

re: #89 originalspin

They're growing wine in England now, you know.

98 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:15:45pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

We're running low on evolution denier trolls. The AGW ones could also run out.

If they ever get low, we can always unblock one or two accounts and let them briefly spew to attract some loons we can grill.

/mostly kidding

99 Racer X  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:15:52pm

re: #94 solomonpanting

I hear Biden is coming out with his book--Going Rogaine.

You owe me a new keyboard.

100 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:16:31pm

re: #92 Obdicut

I'd say I consider someone a skeptic only up to the point before they've read one of the very compelling blogs or sites on the topic-- like skepticalscience or realclimate or the one Charles posted earlier.

If they've read those sites and still choose to disbelieve, then they're a denier.

Thanks.

101 jaunte  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:16:50pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I would use the term "denier" for anyone who said there is no warming trend, or that humans don't contribute to it. I'd use the term skeptic for those who doubt there is anything we can do about it.

102 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:17:34pm

re: #96 Gus 802

I'll bite. Not sure if this fits but a skeptic is to an agnostic as denier is to an atheist. I'm not insinuating a religious reasoning for any of this however.

Thanks. ("I'll bite?" I wasn't trying to catch anything, just an honest question).

103 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:17:41pm

re: #97 Obdicut

In the future, instead of tea-time, they'll have wine-time.

104 Girth  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:18:02pm

re: #94 solomonpanting

I hear Biden is coming out with his book--Going Rogaine.

I thought it was going to be Weaves from My Father

105 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:18:34pm

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. ("I'll bite?" I wasn't trying to catch anything, just an honest question).

Figure of speech on my part due to my reluctance to use the words I chose.

106 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:18:45pm

re: #91 brookly red

/you didn't get the DEP report? there is no more charcoal...

I got it, but I'm from Chicago so I know such rulings can be gotten around. I've got a guy who'll get me the charcoal I need and the EPA guys will look the other way as long as we supply them with a occasional troll roast and clean up after ourselves.

107 solomonpanting  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:19:21pm

re: #99 Racer X

You owe me a new keyboard.

Don't blame me. Those words were spoken last week by Sarah Palin at a meeting she had with DC reporters.

108 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:19:35pm

re: #100 Walter L. Newton

Thanks.

Though, being humans, I can understand if people need to kind of talk it through, go through some stages of grief, so to speak, at realizing that they got hoodwinked. It's not like the minute they finish the website I expect them to go "all right then!", but rather to at least stop asserting about it while they think it over.

Every friend I have who I have gotten to honestly review the material has accepted AGW-- and moved on to the much more appropriate debate about methods.

109 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:19:39pm

re: #104 Girth

I thought it was going to be Weaves from My Father

Luckily for you, I hadn't drunk any soda when I read that, or you'd owe me a new monitor.

110 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:19:52pm

re: #101 jaunte

I would use the term "denier" for anyone who said there is no warming trend, or that humans don't contribute to it. I'd use the term skeptic for those who doubt there is anything we can do about it.

Thanks.

Interesting, I already have 3 different explanations.

Skeptic = agnostic, denier = no warming trend

Skeptic = not informed yet by science, denier = no warming trend

Skeptic = agrees with the AGW concept but is resigned to the outcome, denier = no warming trend

111 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:21:10pm

re: #108 Obdicut

Though, being humans, I can understand if people need to kind of talk it through, go through some stages of grief, so to speak, at realizing that they got hoodwinked. It's not like the minute they finish the website I expect them to go "all right then!", but rather to at least stop asserting about it while they think it over.

Every friend I have who I have gotten to honestly review the material has accepted AGW-- and moved on to the much more appropriate debate about methods.

About methods, explain?

112 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:21:58pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Yeah, I think a category of something like 'skeptic' will always have more vagueness to it. Though, just to confuse the issue, the scientific variation of skeptic would definitely be a believer in global warming; they'd be very, very skeptical of the unsound theories proposed by the anti-AGW side.

113 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:22:24pm

re: #101 jaunte

I would use the term "denier" for anyone who said there is no warming trend, or that humans don't contribute to it. I'd use the term skeptic for those who doubt there is anything we can do about it.

denier is the same as infidel, it turns people off & will cause a backlash.

114 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:23:13pm

re: #108 Obdicut

[...] accepted AGW--[...]

Is that like accepting Jesus?

115 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:23:42pm

OT:

Tea Party Website has Poll:

Let's all vote for them to take over the Democrats from the inside

[Link: taxdayteaparty.com...]

116 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:23:51pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

About methods, explain?

Oh, like-- should we really encourage free-market enterprise in technologies that can reduce AGW? Should we do a huge government push for the same?

Should we do strict carbon capping? Should we do a market-based cap solution? How exactly do we get the whole world on board?

What alternative energies are really the most promising and will be able to adapt the easiest?

etc. etc.

117 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:24:07pm

re: #114 Bagua

[...] accepted AGW--[...]

Is that like accepting Jesus?

There is no God but Algore, and Michaelmoore is his prophet.

/ q:

118 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:24:53pm

re: #114 Bagua

Is that like accepting Jesus?

No. It's like accepting that you've been proven wrong about something. It's something you have to learn to do, in order to be a rational adult.

Why would you compare accepting the truth of a scientific theory to a religious faith?

119 jaunte  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:25:00pm

re: #113 brookly red

It does have an unfortunate emotional component.
But it's undeniable that some people deny there's a problem.

120 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:25:18pm
121 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:26:48pm

GAO: Climate Change Issues

These are the results of the Government Accountability Office regarding climate change.

About GAO:

Our Mission is to support the Congress in meeting its constitutional responsibilities and to help improve the performance and ensure the accountability of the federal government for the benefit of the American people. We provide Congress with timely information that is objective, fact-based, nonpartisan, nonideological, fair, and balanced.

Our Core Values of accountability, integrity, and reliability are reflected in all of the work we do. We operate under strict professional standards of review and referencing; all facts and analyses in our work are thoroughly checked for accuracy.

Our Work is done at the request of congressional committees or subcommittees or is mandated by public laws or committee reports. We also undertake research under the authority of the Comptroller General. We support congressional oversight by

122 amrafel  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:27:33pm

"Here’s a new book I highly recommend to anyone interested in learning about the deceptive personalities and industry-funded groups behind the flood of global warming denial propaganda"

I am not a GW denier, but there's one argument above that I'd forgo. The part about industry-funded groups. While true, it's just as true that many of the global warming scientists are government funded. I'd say they cancel each other out.

123 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:27:57pm
124 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:28:00pm

re: #117 laZardo

There is no God but Algore, and Michaelmoore is his prophet.

/ q:

I've just never seen it described as a pseudo-religious conversion before, with a grief and psychological stage needing talk through. Together with a definition of heretic that includes one easy website.

125 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:28:19pm

re: #122 amrafel

Why would you think they cancel each other out? You think the scientists of all the governments in the world are colluding with each other?

126 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:29:03pm

re: #122 amrafel

"Here’s a new book I highly recommend to anyone interested in learning about the deceptive personalities and industry-funded groups behind the flood of global warming denial propaganda"

I am not a GW denier, but there's one argument above that I'd forgo. The part about industry-funded groups. While true, it's just as true that many of the global warming scientists are government funded. I'd say they cancel each other out.

You don't see any difference between industry funded and government funded?

127 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:30:32pm

re: #124 Bagua

I didn't describe it as a religious conversion. I described the psychological process you go through when you realize something you strongly believed in isn't true, and have the strength to admit that to yourself. It can take awhile. In fact, what I described is a lot more akin to someone losing their religion, than gaining one-- if you want to make a comparison, that's more apt.

128 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:30:39pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Pic of the day

Buddhists?

/

129 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:31:06pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Pic of the day

Hell awaits Dirty Dancers?

130 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:31:25pm

re: #119 jaunte

It does have an unfortunate emotional component.
But it's undeniable that some people deny there's a problem.

denier, witch, verweigerer, infidel, enemy of the people... there is a PR problem here.

131 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:31:42pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

That anti-gay dude sure can match a tweed cap and a tweed jacket.

132 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:32:23pm
133 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:32:48pm

re: #129 Bloodnok

Hell awaits Dirty Dancers?

And immodest women?

Hmm, maybe he's OK with immodest men? Hmmm.

/

134 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:35:17pm

re: #122 amrafel

Here's a word I learned how to pronounce today: tu quoque
The definition, however, not the pronunciation, is useful in your case.

135 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:35:23pm

re: #132 MikeySDCA

Vaclaw Klaus, the President of the Czech Republic, has described this as a new religion.

I would say the fervor and intensity of AGW proponents has a ecstatic quality to it.

136 laZardo  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:35:49pm

Gonna go for a walk. BBL.

137 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:35:51pm

re: #131 Obdicut

That anti-gay dude sure can match a tweed cap and a tweed jacket.

I do enjoy his dejected pose. I think that one's disposition is automatically amplified by at least x10 when one is wearing a sandwich board.

138 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:35:52pm
139 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:36:16pm

re: #134 bosforus

Here's a word I learned how to pronounce today: tu quoque
The definition, however, not the pronunciation, is useful in your case.

It doesn't matter. It seems like Amrafel doesn't want to play with us.

140 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:36:28pm

Weezer cancels tour after bus crash in upstate NY

Weezer has canceled the rest of its December tour after the lead singer was injured in a bus crash in New York.

Rivers Cuomo and band assistant Sarah Kim suffered minor injuries when the group's tour bus skidded on ice, struck a guide rail and slid into a ditch Sunday morning.

Cuomo and Kim were hospitalized after the accident in the upstate New York town of Glen. That's about 40 miles west of Albany. They were traveling to a show in Boston.

Cuomo's condition isn't clear.

A message on the band's Web site says Weezer is canceling the rest of its Raditude tour and will try to reschedule those dates.

141 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:36:56pm

Well, an industry shill or a nut job like that weirdo from the video deserves some sort of a label such as denier. But in my opinion it is not really helpful to the pro -AGW side as it is alienating when used broadly.

142 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:37:06pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

I saw that earlier. Hope it's not serious.

143 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:37:17pm

re: #78 brookly red

/cause they speak French :)

Dang. Reply to a few emails, watch some football, and missed a perfectly good roast.

Hey Brookly - j'ai une bonne idee...va te faire foutre :b

144 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:38:11pm

re: #142 Killgore Trout

Me too.

145 bosforus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:38:20pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't matter. It seems like Amrafel doesn't want to play with us.

Aww. But it's so fun.

146 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:39:31pm

re: #141 Bagua

Well, an industry shill or a nut job like that weirdo from the video deserves some sort of a label such as denier. But in my opinion it is not really helpful to the pro -AGW side as it is alienating when used broadly.

I've been called a denier over and over, and I don't deny anything. I admit that the finer details of the science itself is confusing to me, but just because I don't seem to have the ability to totally understand it, I get put down as a denier, or as someone implied earlier this evening, if I wasn't a conservative I would understand it better.

147 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:39:35pm

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

I would say the fervor and intensity of AGW proponents has a ecstatic quality to it.

Certainly that was the impression I got watching the opening ceremony in Copenhagen. It was political theatre with a strong ecclesiastic undertone, right down to choir type singing by youths.

148 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:39:35pm

re: #137 Bloodnok

I do enjoy his dejected pose. I think that one's disposition is automatically amplified by at least x10 when one is wearing a sandwich board.

I have never thought about it before, but you are so right.

this dude is pleased as punch, x10

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:39:52pm

re: #114 Bagua

Is that like accepting Jesus?

Not exactly. WHen you accept Jesus, you know you are saved. When you accept AGW, you know you are screwed. It's much less uplifting.

150 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:40:19pm

re: #145 bosforus

Aww. But it's so fun.

Well, I can't MAKE him converse with us.

151 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:40:27pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Not exactly. WHen you accept Jesus, you know you are saved. When you accept AGW, you know you are screwed. It's much less uplifting.

Excellent!

152 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:40:56pm

Beck on Breitbart's Story: Who Really Wrote the Healthcare Bill?

This is why it's important to annoy Breibart. He's responsible for much of the insanity.

153 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:41:04pm

re: #147 Bagua

Certainly that was the impression I got watching the opening ceremony in Copenhagen. It was political theatre with a strong ecclesiastic undertone, right down to choir type singing by youths.

Sheesh. Way to play down the 'agw is a religion' chant, folks.

154 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:41:08pm

re: #148 Obdicut

I have never thought about it before, but you are so right.

this dude is pleased as punch, x10

Who the hell cares. The guy with the sign is sick.

155 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:41:39pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

ACORN!

156 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:43:02pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Pic of the day

I love it! That signboard wearing jerk got an eyeful. If you read his list of those condemned to Hell, you'll find "evolutionists" on it. So I like what those two guys did; They gave the Bad Craziness the backhand.

157 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:43:23pm

re: #153 Aceofwhat?

Sheesh. Way to play down the 'agw is a religion' chant, folks.

Seriously. Subtlety is not exactly your strong suit, Bagua.


Last sandwich board, I promise.

158 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:44:30pm

re: #143 Aceofwhat?

obtenez au-dessus de vous-même

159 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:44:58pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

Beck on Breitbart's Story: Who Really Wrote the Healthcare Bill?

[Video]This is why it's important to annoy Breibart. He's responsible for much of the insanity.

I can usually get through Beck's insane ranting, but today's was too much. The WH letting the party crashers in to cover up the convicted felon story was just too much.

160 solomonpanting  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:46:36pm
161 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:47:00pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

I love it! That signboard wearing jerk got an eyeful. If you read his list of those condemned to Hell, you'll find "evolutionists" on it. So I like what those two guys did; They gave the Bad Craziness the backhand.

The God i believe in isn't worried about the two guys - but is mad as hell about the sandwich board. Whatever possesses someone to think that will do anything but alienate?

*sadly sighing*

162 Bloodnok  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:47:28pm

re: #148 Obdicut

I have never thought about it before, but you are so right.

this dude is pleased as punch, x10

It's a strange phenomenon. But I guess it would stand to reason that someone who is so moved by a subject as to wedge themselves between two pieces of cardboard would probably be a little "over the top" about it. Or just plain pleased with themselves. Long live the sandwich board.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:47:59pm

re: #150 Walter L. Newton

Well, I can't MAKE him converse with us.

Poke him with something!

164 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:48:13pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

re: #155 Killgore Trout

This ties into our discussion earlier. I have no patience for ACORN conspiracies. You might as well mention the New World Order and Jewish bankers. Anyone pushing ACORN conspiracies deserves to be ignored. There are few groups less important than ACORN. For example; McDonald's. McDonald's has far more influence on US laws and policy than ACORN. McDonald's is a multi billion dollar international company. They influence the FDA, agriculture dept, and have influence on international trade policy. They can influence zoning laws and local health inspector policies. McDonald's is a million times more influential than ACORN. Imagine if I tried to tie in every government policy with a McDonald's conspiracy. That's be pretty nutty, eh?

165 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:48:29pm
166 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:48:53pm

re: #159 avanti

I can usually get through Beck's insane ranting, but today's was too much. The WH letting the party crashers in to cover up the convicted felon story was just too much.

Who's a convicted felon?

167 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:48:58pm

re: #159 avanti

I only made it about half way through myself.

168 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:49:12pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

I've been called a denier over and over, and I don't deny anything. I admit that the finer details of the science itself is confusing to me, but just because I don't seem to have the ability to totally understand it, I get put down as a denier, or as someone implied earlier this evening, if I wasn't a conservative I would understand it better.

Likewise I recall such name calling, and shill, and liar, and idiot, and stupid, and so on, tiresome banter in my opinion. It is far more effective to make one's point through reason, logic and evidence.

Knowledge interests me, tests to determine orthodoxy and labels do not.

169 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:50:14pm

Those ACORN sting videos were heavily edited.

The videos that have been released appear to have been edited, in some cases substantially, including the insertion of a substitute voiceover for significant portions of Mr. O'Keefe's and Ms. Giles's comments, which makes it difficult to determine the questions to which ACORN employees are responding. A comparison of the publicly available transcripts to the released videos confirms that large portions of the original video have been omitted from the released versions.

170 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:50:27pm

re: #153 Aceofwhat?

Sheesh. Way to play down the 'agw is a religion' chant, folks.

What's wrong with describing a strong support for AGW as a "religious" like fervor? I would certainly like to see more of that sort of fervor. Better than being wimpy about it.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:50:43pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

re: #155 Killgore Trout

This ties into our discussion earlier. I have no patience for ACORN conspiracies. You might as well mention the New World Order and Jewish bankers. Anyone pushing ACORN conspiracies deserves to be ignored. There are few groups less important than ACORN. For example; McDonald's. McDonald's has far more influence on US laws and policy than ACORN. McDonald's is a multi billion dollar international company. They influence the FDA, agriculture dept, and have influence on international trade policy. They can influence zoning laws and local health inspector policies. McDonald's is a million times more influential than ACORN. Imagine if I tried to tie in every government policy with a McDonald's conspiracy. That's be pretty nutty, eh?

But McDonalds produces wealth!

//

(I must argue that I myself am a member of several groups even less important than ACORN. None of them have received anywhere near the national attention ACORN gets, however.)

172 Gus  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:51:05pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

Beck on Breitbart's Story: Who Really Wrote the Healthcare Bill?

This is why it's important to annoy Breibart. He's responsible for much of the insanity.

The health insurance industry loves Glenn Beck. At least until 2013. When the mandatory health insurance requirement comes on line they'll be racking in record profits.

I'm sure more than half of his high school graduate viewers are clueless about how the system works. They're either uninsured or on state health cares plan, Medicaid or Medicare.

Then there was the time he went on to talk about how bad health care was after he had an operation on his hemorrhoids.

173 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:51:28pm

re: #165 MikeySDCA

So you weren't smart enough to handle freshman physics, and based on that...you disbelieve everyone. So tell me. what DO you believe?

(sorry everyone. i can't help it.)

174 brookly red  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:51:42pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

What's wrong with describing a strong support for AGW as a "religious" like fervor? I would certainly like to see more of that sort of fervor. Better than being wimpy about it.

well don't worry they will be passing the plate soon e-nuff.

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:52:22pm

re: #169 Charles

Those ACORN sting videos were heavily edited.

Was any of the editing to get rid of the encounters where the ACORN employees said "You're no pimp kid. I have seen pimps, and sonny, you just ain't no pimp. Sorry. Now what can I help you with?"

I just have a terrible time believing anyone bought them.

176 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:52:51pm

re: #169 Charles

The whole ACORN thing is so overblown. Typical search for a scapegoat or a boogieman.

177 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:53:11pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

What's wrong with describing a strong support for AGW as a "religious" like fervor? I would certainly like to see more of that sort of fervor. Better than being wimpy about it.

Because no one who is on the fence is going to be (or ought to be) convinced with fervency. The data is either overwhelming or it's not.

I can be strong in my analysis of a situation without being fervent. Don't confuse confidently analytical with wimpy.

178 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:54:20pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

I've been called a denier over and over, and I don't deny anything. I admit that the finer details of the science itself is confusing to me, but just because I don't seem to have the ability to totally understand it, I get put down as a denier, or as someone implied earlier this evening, if I wasn't a conservative I would understand it better.

The point I was making earlier, that you called me a fuck wad for, is that those on the right, or at least those that feel more comfortable identifying with the right, will not be as open to accepting AGW as fact because that would lead to also siding with the left. And it's hard to break through a barrier like that. I assumed you would (at least until recently), if had to choose, identify more culturally with conservatism then liberalism.

As Charles said above, it won't feel good when you find out how much you've been lied to.

Now if you've been a left of center independent or liberal the people you've been listening to would be algore etc. therefore rendering my point moot.

179 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:54:44pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Who's a convicted felon?

The husband of the Representative from Ill. that was at the party with his wife. He served time for a tax fraud issue.

180 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:15pm

re: #176 Bagua

The whole ACORN thing is so overblown. Typical search for a scapegoat or a boogieman.

Agreed. ACORN is a bad organization, but they're not a grave threat, as it turns out. They can be overcome normally, by promoting better policies and running good candidates.

181 [deleted]  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:26pm
182 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:55:40pm

re: #179 avanti

The husband of the Representative from Ill. that was at the party with his wife. He served time for a tax fraud issue.

So to distract The People, a couple of reality stars were allowed to crash? Makes perfect sense to me.

183 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:56:10pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

But McDonalds produces wealth!

//

(I must argue that I myself am a member of several groups even less important than ACORN. None of them have received anywhere near the national attention ACORN gets, however.)

Do they get any funding? The two seconds i've spent caring about ACORN are only to bemoan that they received what little funds they did. I've had the pleasure of helping my company to find worthy charitable causes, and i'm sure that any one of the hundreds of charities i've spoken with have a lot more control over their agents and mission.

184 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:13pm

re: #181 MikeySDCA

I passed freshman physics. Did you?
As to what I believe, I know that the temperature of the globe has changed many times, and that it is more complex than we can understand today.

Good job passing. I got an A. So would you say that the climate is irreducibly complex?

185 avanti  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:21pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

So to distract The People, a couple of reality stars were allowed to crash? Makes perfect sense to me.

It's deeper than that, Beck suspects he wrote the health care bill. (not kidding)

186 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:57:29pm

re: #168 Bagua

Likewise I recall such name calling, and shill, and liar, and idiot, and stupid, and so on, tiresome banter in my opinion. It is far more effective to make one's point through reason, logic and evidence.

Knowledge interests me, tests to determine orthodoxy and labels do not.

And it happens here all the time. I'm going to start ignoring anyone who plays those games. I'm not denying it, but I wouldn't be a good banner carrier to explain it all to anyone. The only thing I question, and everyone know I question this, I question some of the information technology processes and procedures used by certain scientist and organizations.

But, as I say, I am not going to be pushed around and put down because I don't understand it the way someone thinks I ought to understand it.

That's bullshit.

187 Bagua  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 9:58:36pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Hear, hear.

188 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:00:21pm

re: #178 recusancy

not necessarily. being on the right and accepting AGW means gaining a big soapbox from which to mock lefty AGW proponents who don't want nuclear power anywhere, anytime...a stance that makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

189 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:02:39pm

re: #185 avanti

It's deeper than that, Beck suspects he wrote the health care bill. (not kidding)

Can't they just put Beck in a room that's padded except for a chalkboard and just let draw? Why does his lunacy have to be on public display?

190 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:03:20pm

re: #178 recusancy

The point I was making earlier, that you called me a fuck wad for, is that those on the right, or at least those that feel more comfortable identifying with the right, will not be as open to accepting AGW as fact because that would lead to also siding with the left. And it's hard to break through a barrier like that. I assumed you would (at least until recently), if had to choose, identify more culturally with conservatism then liberalism.

As Charles said above, it won't feel good when you find out how much you've been lied to.

Now if you've been a left of center independent or liberal the people you've been listening to would be algore etc. therefore rendering my point moot.

You assumed that because YOU have your opinion of how conservatives see or treat or understand AGW, that you could paint me with the same broad brush. And that's exactly what you did.

Guess what? I'm my own person, and you don't define me because you have preconceived notions and stereotypes of certain people.

How the hell do you know what I WOULD BE MORE OPEN TO ACCEPTING OR NOT?

And even after I explained it to you earlier, here you come back with the same bias, not considering one little bit of what I explained to you about myself.

When I saw your name come up in reply to my comment above, I though maybe you considered how bigoted you sounded. I guess that was too much to expect. My earlier comment stands.

191 recusancy  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:04:53pm

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

not necessarily. being on the right and accepting AGW means gaining a big soapbox from which to mock lefty AGW proponents who don't want nuclear power anywhere, anytime...a stance that makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

I guess. I wish more would stand up and mock because that would at least mean we're talking about solutions rather then whether it's happening or not.

And by the way...[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

192 borgcube  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:07:46pm

re: #147 Bagua

Certainly that was the impression I got watching the opening ceremony in Copenhagen. It was political theatre with a strong ecclesiastic undertone, right down to choir type singing by youths.

Any dancing with snakes? We already know they were speaking in foreign tongues.

193 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:07:51pm

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

not necessarily. being on the right and accepting AGW means gaining a big soapbox from which to mock lefty AGW proponents who don't want nuclear power anywhere, anytime...a stance that makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

So, what you are saying is you would just prefer if no one on the right were pro-agw... I don't deny AGW, I'm on the "right" and I don't beat the left up with nuclear power issues.

So,, where does that leave me, oh enlightened one?

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:09:16pm

re: #183 Aceofwhat?

Do they get any funding? The two seconds i've spent caring about ACORN are only to bemoan that they received what little funds they did. I've had the pleasure of helping my company to find worthy charitable causes, and i'm sure that any one of the hundreds of charities i've spoken with have a lot more control over their agents and mission.

Sadly, none of us have much funding, and none of it federal.

;(

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 7, 2009 10:13:42pm

re: #185 avanti

It's deeper than that, Beck suspects he wrote the health care bill. (not kidding)

Wait. Beck suspects that Mr. Salahi wrote the health care bill?

196 Bacchus's daddy  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 1:20:46am

Charles-
I will take a good look at this. I retain one foot heavily in the skeptic's camp- but have learned from these threads that you are not. I think I agree with you on most things, but I also respect Krauthammer (agnostic) and Will (skeptic) on this. I know that the petrol industry has a vested interest in this, but I also feel that scientific interests do as well, insofar as there's much more money in a looming catastrophe than there is without one. Anyway, I respect your opinion/knowledge enough to re-examine this issue more closely.

197 USInfidel  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 1:48:26am

So Leonardo DiCaprio is a climate expert/scientist... I'm convinced now

198 amrafel  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 5:24:08am

Someone challenged me and asked "You don't see any difference between industry funded and government funded?"

The answer is yes and no. Since there's no need to mention the differences, I'll just mention the similarity. In each case, the researcher who gets the money is influenced by the wishes of the giver. Just imagine deniers whining, "the government-funded climate researchers..." and you'll see a tactic they use to discredit the climate researchers. I'm just saying that it works both ways. (Notice how I just tried to discredit deniers by saying that they whine, and by not calling them 'deniers' instead of 'skeptics.')

199 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 8:03:14am

re: #198 amrafel

But why would every single nation on earth be influencing all their scientists in the same way?

Except Saudi Arabia, that is.

200 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 8:18:37am

Some pushback today in the Guardian against the denialist crap being pushed-- mentions this book, too.

The climate denial industry is out to dupe the public. And it's working

I have placed on the Guardian's website four case studies; each of which provides a shocking example of how the denial industry works.

Two of them are drawn from Climate Cover-Up, the fascinating, funny and beautifully written new book by James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore. If every allegation it contained could not be traced back to leaked documents (I have checked all the sources), their findings would be unbelievable. Nothing exposed by the hacking of the Climatic Research Unit's server is one tenth as bad as the least of these revelations.

When I use the term denial industry, I'm referring to those who are paid to say that man-made global warming isn't happening. The great majority of people who believe this have not been paid: they have been duped. Reading Climate Cover-Up, you keep stumbling across familiar phrases and concepts which you can see every day on the comment threads. The book shows that these memes were planted by PR companies and hired experts.

The first case study I've posted reveals how a coalition of US coal companies sought to persuade people that the science is uncertain. It listed the two social groups it was trying to reach – "Target 1: Older, less educated males"; "Target 2: Younger, lower income women" – and the methods by which it would reach them. One of its findings was that "members of the public feel more confident expressing opinions on others' motivations and tactics than they do expressing opinions on scientific issues".

Remember this the next time you hear people claiming that climate scientists are only in it for the money, or that environmentalists are trying to create a communist world government: these ideas were devised and broadcast by energy companies. The people who inform me, apparently without irony, that "your article is an ad hominem attack, you four-eyed, big-nosed, commie sack of shit", or "you scaremongers will destroy the entire world economy and take us back to the Stone Age", are the unwitting recruits of campaigns they have never heard of.

The second case study reveals how Dr Patrick Michaels, one of a handful of climate change deniers with a qualification in climate science, has been lavishly paid by companies seeking to protect their profits from burning coal. As far as I can discover, none of the media outlets who use him as a commentator – including the Guardian – has disclosed this interest at the time of his appearance. Michaels is one of many people commenting on climate change who presents himself as an independent expert while being secretly paid for his services by fossil fuel companies.

The third example shows how a list published by the Heartland Institute (which has been sponsored by oil company Exxon) of 500 scientists "whose research contradicts man-made global warming scares" turns out to be nothing of the kind: as soon as these scientists found out what the institute was saying about them, many angrily demanded that their names be removed. Twenty months later, they are still on the list. The fourth example shows how, during the Bush presidency, White House officials worked with oil companies to remove regulators they didn't like and to doctor official documents about climate change.

201 Basho  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 8:29:23am

re: #200 iceweasel

That article is epic denier pwnage. Especially:

Remember this the next time you hear people claiming that climate scientists are only in it for the money, or that environmentalists are trying to create a communist world government: these ideas were devised and broadcast by energy companies. The people who inform me, apparently without irony, that "your article is an ad hominem attack, you four-eyed, big-nosed, commie sack of shit", or "you scaremongers will destroy the entire world economy and take us back to the Stone Age", are the unwitting recruits of campaigns they have never heard of.

202 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 8:34:39am

re: #201 Basho

That article is epic denier pwnage. Especially:

Remember this the next time you hear people claiming that climate scientists are only in it for the money, or that environmentalists are trying to create a communist world government: these ideas were devised and broadcast by energy companies. The people who inform me, apparently without irony, that "your article is an ad hominem attack, you four-eyed, big-nosed, commie sack of shit", or "you scaremongers will destroy the entire world economy and take us back to the Stone Age", are the unwitting recruits of campaigns they have never heard of.

Oh yeah. I just quoted that in the top thread as well. I've bookmarked it and plan to whip it out in the future. :)

203 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:02:49am

re: #19 Bagua

Only low lying areas would flood, including unfortunately many heavily populated areas. Other inland areas that are now fertile could become arid with the loss of glacial melts and other such changes. The resulting desertification would be very destabilising if it occurred in "bread basket" farming regions.

My living room is 14' above sea level. Should I try to sell? /

204 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:11:24am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I've been asking this question around the threads tonight, if you are still watching, maybe you would answer. In your opinion, what is, or is there a difference between a AGW "skeptic" and a "denier?"

Or anyone who wants to chime in, serious question.

Myself I would think a denier doesn't want to listen to the other side period end of...

The skeptic is open to reason.

205 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #176 Bagua

The whole ACORN thing is so overblown. Typical search for a scapegoat or a boogieman.

It might be but I get nervous when 11 Acorn employees are arrested in my state for ballot box stuffing. To me that isn't overblown when a few votes either way can determine an election.

206 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:24:51am

re: #185 avanti

It's deeper than that, Beck suspects he wrote the health care bill. (not kidding)

More than that. He laid out the plan (according to Beck) to convince us all that we need a health care plan and laid out the steps Democratic politicians needed to take to get it passed including frightening us.

207 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 8, 2009 10:29:21am

re: #193 Walter L. Newton

So, what you are saying is you would just prefer if no one on the right were pro-agw... I don't deny AGW, I'm on the "right" and I don't beat the left up with nuclear power issues.

So,, where does that leave me, oh enlightened one?

Someone needs to beat on someone about nuclear power issues because if we can't build nuclear power plants in this country and we can't burn coal or gas just how are we all going to keep warm in the winter?


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