Young environmentalists crash a climate change denier’s conference in Copenhagen organized by industry front group Americans for Prosperity, and Lord High Denier Christopher Monckton (fresh from his appearance on the bat guano crazy Alex Jones conspiracy radio show) goes ballistic, calling them “Hitler youth:”
2 |
Gang of One Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:02:04pm |
This is going to be one protracted conflict, methinks.
| 3 |
freetoken Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:03:12pm |
re: #2 Gang of One
The Lord High Denier has been at this for a while. He loves the limelight, and is one of Inhofe's favorite speakers, so you will see more of him.
| 4 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:05:14pm |
What does he say exactly? I unfortunately can't watch the video.
| 5 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:06:28pm |
Hmm. What will we call them when (as planned) they crash the climate believers' conference later on this week or next?
"Stalin Youth"?
| 6 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:06:35pm |
re: #4 Jadespring
What does he say exactly? I unfortunately can't watch the video.
He calls them crazed Hitler Youth.
I remember all those times the Hitler Youth mounted peaceful (though loud) protests and disrupted press conferences. They were the scourge of Europe because of it.
He also says they know no climate science, which is a real "No, you!" moment.
| 7 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:07:51pm |
I didn't like it when tea-parties interrupted the townhall meetings and I can't defend this. It doesn't make the deniers more receptive to the AGW argument. It'll just do the opposite.
| 8 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:08:20pm |
My, but isn't that Monckton fellow looking a little hot under the collar there.
| 9 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:08:33pm |
How entertaining indeed! It doesn't speak well of the AWG deniers when they give a conference and the vast majority of the hall is filled with counter-demonstrators. Couldn't they have had a few supporters to shout down the banner-wavers? Or is getting the masses to reverently believe in this crap extremely hard to peddle?
| 10 |
McSpiff Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:08:42pm |
re: #5 Cato the Elder
Hmm. What will we call them when (as planned) they crash the climate believers' conference later on this week or next?
"Stalin Youth"?
Young Pioneers?
| 11 |
political lunatic Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:09:30pm |
Sigh... Once again, Godwin's Law is correct.
| 12 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:09:59pm |
US youths? They must really be dedicated cause the air fare is not cheap.
| 13 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:11:18pm |
re: #9 Surabaya Stew
How entertaining indeed! It doesn't speak well of the AWG deniers when they give a conference and the vast majority of the hall is filled with counter-demonstrators. Couldn't they have had a few supporters to shout down the banner-wavers? Or is getting the masses to reverently believe in this crap extremely hard to peddle?
The guy who stole the first sheet ran all the way out of the building with it. You have to hand it to the counter-demonstrators...they were smart to fill the place early...had they not been there, it probably would have been half-empty.
| 14 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:11:23pm |
By the way, I no more see why we should applaud the gate-crashing of a peaceful, if misguided, conference by people many of us most sincerely disagree with (I assume the "deniers" paid for the venue) than we should cheer the illegal hacking of a climatology center.
But maybe I'm terminally equitable, or something.
| 15 |
windsagio Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:11:35pm |
re: #6 Obdicut
I remember all those times the Hitler Youth mounted peaceful (though loud) protests and disrupted press conferences. They were the scourge of Europe because of it.
I can't upding yet, but I just wanted to let you know how much this made me smile... Oh the images it evokes!
| 16 |
Gang of One Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:12:10pm |
So, these disruptors are all for "clean energy". That would be nuclear-powered generating stations, no doubt?
| 17 |
lightspeed Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:12:12pm |
Tactics like these (disrupting the conference) are deplorable and only make whatever side does it look like kooks and thugs. On the other hand, calling them "Hitler Youth" is moronic. Ugh.
| 18 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:12:34pm |
re: #14 Cato the Elder
By the way, I no more see why we should applaud the gate-crashing of a peaceful, if misguided, conference by people many of us most sincerely disagree with (I assume the "deniers" paid for the venue) than we should cheer the illegal hacking of a climatology center.
But maybe I'm terminally equitable, or something.
Couldn't agree more.
(Though calling them "Hitler Youth is way out of bounds.)
| 19 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:14:14pm |
re: #13 darthstar
The guy who stole the first sheet ran all the way out of the building with it. You have to hand it to the counter-demonstrators...they were smart to fill the place early...had they not been there, it probably would have been half-empty.
Agreed, these are smarter cookies than the average here. And usually I'm not a fan of stuff like this, but methinks the severity of the garbage spewing from Americans for Prosperity deserves a severe reply.
| 20 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:14:37pm |
re: #7 JasonA
Meh. It's kind of a farce anyway. They were probably very glad to get enough people to fill up that tiny, tiny room.
I don't think it's a good tactic, but I think calling them Hitler Youth is a bigger deal than their rudeness.
| 21 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:16:29pm |
re: #20 Obdicut
Meh. It's kind of a farce anyway. They were probably very glad to get enough people to fill up that tiny, tiny room.
I don't think it's a good tactic, but I think calling them Hitler Youth is a bigger deal than their rudeness.
Well, a group of 20 or 30 attractive young people waving American flags and smiling doesn't exactly mesh with the concept of "Hitler Youth"...and he said it a few times, which makes him look even more the fool.
| 22 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:17:01pm |
re: #6 Obdicut
He calls them crazed Hitler Youth.
I remember all those times the Hitler Youth mounted peaceful (though loud) protests and disrupted press conferences. They were the scourge of Europe because of it.
He also says they know no climate science, which is a real "No, you!" moment.
Oh sounds lurvly. Thanks.
| 23 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:18:31pm |
I don't think this is the best tactic to use, but on the other hand, the fact is that this is not a legitimate group of "skeptics." It's a front group for all kinds of bad people, including the tobacco industry, and Monckton's presence shows you how crazy they are.
| 24 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:19:02pm |
If this guy appeared on Alex Jones' Show, I don't like him.
However, this bunch of rioters is disgusting.
| 25 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:20:25pm |
I still want to know who paid for and organized this, traveling across the Atlantic ain't exactly what I would call grass-roots.
| 26 |
windsagio Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:21:19pm |
Its so tea-partyish, its hard to watch even if I agree with them >
| 27 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:22:08pm |
re: #25 brookly red
I still want to know who paid for and organized this, traveling across the Atlantic ain't exactly what I would call grass-roots.
If they young (Uni age) they could already be there or at least somewhere in Europe for school. If they're in Europe it's pretty cheap to take the train pretty much anywhere.
| 28 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:22:55pm |
Eh. 20-somethings who flew to Copenhagen just to protest. In between semesters at Brown no doubt. I wonder how much carbon the trans-Atlantic flight took.
I'm officially sympathetic to neither side.
| 29 |
bratwurst Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:24:55pm |
Was the shot of Monckton's nostril hair REALLY necessary?
| 30 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:25:07pm |
re: #27 Jadespring
If they young (Uni age) they could already be there or at least somewhere in Europe for school. If they're in Europe it's pretty cheap to take the train pretty much anywhere.
perhaps...
| 31 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:25:14pm |
re: #28 Conservative Moonbat
Eh. 20-somethings who flew to Copenhagen just to protest. In between semesters at Brown no doubt. I wonder how much carbon the trans-Atlantic flight took.
I'm officially sympathetic to neither side.
Not just to protest...they're also probably whooping it up at the bars, getting laid, and all that other fun stuff people do in their 20s...
| 32 |
CyanSnowHawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:25:54pm |
re: #17 lightspeed
Tactics like these (disrupting the conference) are deplorable and only make whatever side does it look like kooks and thugs. On the other hand, calling them "Hitler Youth" is moronic. Ugh.
Is disrupting things like this something the Hitler Youth actually did or are known for? If so, the name calling may be apt, but Godwin's Law still precludes its use.
| 33 |
That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:25:57pm |
The childish display of these gutter snipes reminds me of an experience I remember from my youth. Grand Daddy had taken me out on my first fox hunt on the estate. As we rode through a meadow a rabble of activists emerged from a thicket protesting.
Of course, Grand Daddy was not one to put up with such things and demanded to know what these people knew of ecology in general and foxes in particular. They shouted back a bunch of nonsense that I really don't remember. What I do remember was one of the protesters yelled "foxes should be allowed to run free!" That gave Grand Daddy an idea : "As should my Doberman's."
Unfortunately I had dismounted and in the ensuing melee one of the Dobermans bit off a portion of my left buttock. Hence I have always leaned right.
| 34 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:27:29pm |
re: #33 That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you
The childish display of these gutter snipes reminds me of an experience I remember from my youth. Grand Daddy had taken me out on my first fox hunt on the estate. As we rode through a meadow a rabble of activists emerged from a thicket protesting.
Of course, Grand Daddy was not one to put up with such things and demanded to know what these people knew of ecology in general and foxes in particular. They shouted back a bunch of nonsense that I really don't remember. What I do remember was one of the protesters yelled "foxes should be allowed to run free!" That gave Grand Daddy an idea : "As should my Doberman's."
Unfortunately I had dismounted and in the ensuing melee one of the Dobermans bit off a portion of my left buttock. Hence I have always leaned right.
Dobermans are not used for fox hunting.
| 35 |
windsagio Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:28:23pm |
re: #34 brookly red
nothing like a little reality to ruin a good joke.
| 36 |
That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:28:36pm |
| 37 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:28:49pm |
re: #31 darthstar
they're also probably whooping it up at the bars, getting laid,
So, at least they are also doing some good and worthwhile things.
| 38 |
davinvalkri Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:29:33pm |
re: #7 JasonA
I didn't like it when tea-parties interrupted the townhall meetings and I can't defend this. It doesn't make the deniers more receptive to the AGW argument. It'll just do the opposite.
Ah, grand, everybody's a twit. Great.
| 39 |
Ericus58 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:30:11pm |
re: #33 That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you
Classic style, well done! I appreciate the humor and wit.
| 40 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:30:21pm |
| 41 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:30:44pm |
Again, I recommend that everyone read Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming, to really understand who's behind this group of deniers.
| 42 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:33:33pm |
re: #41 Charles
Again, I recommend that everyone read Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming, to really understand who's behind this group of deniers.
This book is recommended not only by Amazon, but also by well-known climate-scientist Leonardo DiCaprio. Hmmm.
| 43 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:34:12pm |
re: #38 davinvalkri
Ah, grand, everybody's a twit. Great.
How did you extract that bit of wisdom from my post? Because not everyone decides to crash someone else's gathering.
| 44 |
mosesstone1980 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:34:45pm |
As per usual, the counter protest does nothing for me. What an uninspired joke.
| 45 |
That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:35:07pm |
| 46 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:38:38pm |
| 49 |
Pepper Fox Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:44:32pm |
Lol that was amusing to watch, it seemed like almost the entire room was in on it, it was like a hidden camera show.
| 50 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:46:23pm |
I don't care how crazy Moncton or whomever at the denier conference is or was nor do I care how much tobacco industry money went into arranging their meeting, tactics like these are to me just a red flag to indicate that something is seriously wrong in the proponent camp. Its not really a surprise.
It is also counterproductive since I couldn't have cared less about their little meeting and now I feel compelled to find out more what these guys wanted to say just to spite those who tried to shut them up.
Just to be clear, the above doesn't mean that the climate isn't warming nor does it change my belief that it might be man-made, but it does underline my feeling that AGW is used for policy purposes which have nothing to do with AGW.
| 51 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:48:41pm |
I agree with Cato, this is a disgusting and counter-productive display of bad manners, as though facts and civil discourse cannot serve serve our purpose.
| 52 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:48:44pm |
time to pick up my wife's car...cheers everyone
| 53 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:49:00pm |
re: #49 Pepper Fox
Lol that was amusing to watch, it seemed like almost the entire room was in on it, it was like a hidden camera show.
But I assure you it was spontaneous, there was absolutely no funding or planning behind it. None.
| 54 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:49:49pm |
re: #51 Shiplord Kirel
this is a disgusting and counter-productive display of bad manners, as though facts and civil discourse cannot serve serve our purpose.
You mean calling the protestors Nazi Youth?
| 55 |
billbrent Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:51:04pm |
re: #23 Charles
. . . It's a front group for all kinds of bad people, including the tobacco industry,
I checked the link you recommended and could not find a connection between AFP and the tobacco industry. Do you have some other evidence?
As for the other "bad people" you mentioned, the link mostly talks about the Koch Family Foundation and says the following:
Koch Family Foundations is funded by Koch Industries. According to Forbes, Koch Industries is the second largest privately-held company, and the largest privately owned energy company, in the United States. Koch industries has made its money in the oil business, primarily oil refining. Presently, it holds stakes in pipelines, refineries, fertilizer, forest products, and chemical technology.
Is this the basis for them being labeled "bad people?" Or do you have evidence of some crime the Koch Family Foundations or Koch Industries has committed? Or is simply being in the energy, pipelines, refining, fertilizer, products, and chemical technology businesses prima facie evidence of criminal activity. . . or simply "badness"?
| 56 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:51:04pm |
This Christopher Monckton also appeared on Alex Jones' show, like this Marc Morano? Do they know what a freak Jones is?
I wish this climate-debate would be disputed only between scientists and not in public.
| 57 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:51:16pm |
No debate. Just shut down the opposing view.
Another fascistic tactic.
| 58 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:51:39pm |
As we saw on Hot Air earlier, the right is obsessed with these crazy and offensive Nazi analogies. Obama is Hitler and these pissant disruptors are the Hitler Youth. No doubt a mob of older protesters would be the Waffen SS and Code Pink's papier mache tank a panzer division.
| 59 |
That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:51:45pm |
I should mention that the injury to my left buttock did not keep me from the athletic field. I am a Monckton, after all.
Here is a video featuring my athletic exploits as a youth. I am number "4" as you may notice a slight limp in the opening sequence.
| 60 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:52:26pm |
re: #54 Obdicut
You mean calling the protestors Nazi Youth?
Monckton wasn't disrupting their conference.
| 61 |
Gang of One Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:52:43pm |
| 62 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:52:48pm |
re: #57 worknhard
No debate. Just shut down the opposing view.
Another fascistic tactic.
it's OK they are deniers.
| 64 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:54:27pm |
re: #56 gegenkritik
This Christopher Monckton also appeared on Alex Jones' show, like this Marc Morano? Do they know what a freak Jones is?
I wish this climate-debate would be disputed only between scientists and not in public.
So you are proposing a sort of Plato's republic type society? Where wise men set policy for the rest of us to follow? I think this was tried a few times last century - Stalin, for instance was a prominent political scientist. As was Mao. Both created their own schools of political thought. Hitler's literary efforts were weak so he can hardly be elevated to their class.
| 65 |
Gang of One Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:55:37pm |
| 66 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:55:46pm |
| 68 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:57:16pm |
Hot Air put up a new race baiting thread about the outrage of the NYT recommendations for holiday gifts for minorities.
Somali fashion, do-it-yourself henna kits, children's books that draw inspiration from the lives of Barack Obama and Sonia Sotomayor: it's not hard to find gifts created for and by people of color this holiday season. Here are some possibilities.
Airhead sez...
..I just went to Little Green Footballs for the first time in months and they have a post about all the vile hot air comments. Its like that blog went from right wing to left wing. To make it worse there wasnt a random right wing “troll” to defend anything. I am libertarian and i come to this page daily and I dont think any of us hate anyone, we just hate what govt is doing to our beloved country. Plus Charles Johnson is a retard (Thats Right Charles, you are as sharp as a marble!)deepinthought on December 9, 2009 at 7:28 PM
Management sez...
Stay on topic, please.Allahpundit on December 9, 2009 at 7:29 PM
| 69 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:57:23pm |
re: #60 Shiplord Kirel
Monckton wasn't disrupting their conference.
So you think him calling them Nazi Youth is okay, since they were disrupting his conference?
I think disrupting a conference for a fake industry group is about neutral on the ethics scale. I don't think it's an effective thing to do, but I don't feel bad for the poor fake industry front group. I think it would have been more effective to go there and just film the near-empty room and the dumb, hyperbolic speeches. I think they were silly to protest it.
I think that calling them Nazi Youth is worse.
| 70 |
wrenchwench Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:57:58pm |
| 71 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:58:10pm |
re: #64 kittysaidwoof
Good comparison! Debating a difficult scientifical problem among scientists is like Stalin's or Mao's reign.
By the way, I also think that the public should debate over the design of nuclear-plants and don't leave this for those arrogant wise men called scientists.
| 72 |
billbrent Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:58:10pm |
re: #41 Charles
Again, I recommend that everyone read Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming, to really understand who's behind this group of deniers.
From amazon.com's Editorial Review (from Publishers Weekly):
Readers predisposed to believe the worst about the oil, coal and electric industries will find their fears buttressed by the book . . .
No doubt.
| 73 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:59:17pm |
re: #53 brookly red
But I assure you it was spontaneous, there was absolutely no funding or planning behind it. None.
Of course there was planning. You don't coordinate a group thing like that without planning. Though that type of protest doesn't take much rocket science pull off. If anyone can just show up to watch it then it'd be easy. If they had to pay to get in and get credentials then that's an indication that there'd be more planning. Yeah they likely had money too anything from some sort of large pocket environmental org, some sort of smaller University PIRG or a group that wants to save the plankton. They could be members of group that's attending parts of the other conference already or any of the other smaller meetups that are happening during it. Or they could be members of a whole number of groups that were hanging out in the bar drinking Danish ale and after a few saying 'Oh you know what would be fun, lets go see if we can get into the alternate conference and bug the crap out of them.'
| 74 |
Ericus58 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 4:59:20pm |
re: #59 That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you
Methinks you enjoyed the "Kick the Begger" too much ;)
| 75 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:00:11pm |
re: #7 JasonA
I didn't like it when tea-parties interrupted the townhall meetings and I can't defend this. It doesn't make the deniers more receptive to the AGW argument. It'll just do the opposite.
Agreed. Disrupting conferences is low. Let the deniers make their case and then tear it to shreds with the truth. Crashing the conference just makes people think you're an asshole.
| 76 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:01:01pm |
re: #71 gegenkritik
Good comparison! Debating a difficult scientifical problem among scientists is like Stalin's or Mao's reign.
By the way, I also think that the public should debate over the design of nuclear-plants and don't leave this for those arrogant wise men called scientists.
That's just silly.
| 77 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:01:02pm |
re: #72 billbrent
No doubt.
Keep Reading
"Readers predisposed to believe the worst about the oil, coal and electric industries will find their fears buttressed by the book's detailed overview of an orchestrated climate coverup by Astroturf (fake grassroots) organizations, right-wing think tank echo chambers, the tens of millions of industry dollars poured into primarily Republican campaign coffers and the PR profession's Orwellian use of language. But global warming skeptics might also be swayed by the detailed dissection of an ongoing campaign to convince the public that climate change is still unproven."
| 78 |
Jetpilot1101 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:01:14pm |
Can I ask a simple question:
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
| 79 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:01:42pm |
re: #69 Obdicut
So you think him calling them Nazi Youth is okay, since they were disrupting his conference?
It was hardly a deliberate statement and would be way too harsh if it were part of say official statement. As something said in the heat of the moment it is quite understandable, given the tactics employed were reminiscent of Hitler Youth.
| 80 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:01:42pm |
re: #73 Jadespring
Of course there was planning. You don't coordinate a group thing like that without planning. Though that type of protest doesn't take much rocket science pull off. If anyone can just show up to watch it then it'd be easy. If they had to pay to get in and get credentials then that's an indication that there'd be more planning. Yeah they likely had money too anything from some sort of large pocket environmental org, some sort of smaller University PIRG or a group that wants to save the plankton. They could be members of group that's attending parts of the other conference already or any of the other smaller meetups that are happening during it. Or they could be members of a whole number of groups that were hanging out in the bar drinking Danish ale and after a few saying 'Oh you know what would be fun, lets go see if we can get into the alternate conference and bug the crap out of them.'
I seem to have missplaced my sarc tag...
| 81 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:03:02pm |
re: #79 kittysaidwoof
It was hardly a deliberate statement and would be way too harsh if it were part of say official statement. As something said in the heat of the moment it is quite understandable, given the tactics employed were reminiscent of Hitler Youth.
How so? Please cite a time the Hitler youth peacefully disrupted a press conference, please.
| 82 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:03:20pm |
re: #78 Jetpilot1101
Can I ask a simple question:
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
It is wrong to use that money to lie about scientific consensus.
| 83 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:03:45pm |
re: #78 Jetpilot1101
Can I ask a simple question:
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
Make money as you see fit. What's wrong is to deny obvious scientific facts (which I don't think you do). How you spend and make your money is up to you (as long as it's legal) and your conscious. There aren't many morally sound companies.
| 84 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:04:37pm |
re: #78 Jetpilot1101
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
I don't think so but I suppose it's a personal choice.
| 85 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:05:24pm |
re: #71 gegenkritik
Good comparison! Debating a difficult scientifical problem among scientists is like Stalin's or Mao's reign.
Huh, I didn't know all the world leaders were gathering for a science conference. Our president sure isn't a scientist so he is definitely in the wrong place if this is a scientist conference.
I thought they were gathering to a political conference to agree on policies. I might be mistaken of course. I often do.
If it turns out that this is about setting policies then in democracies we usually get to say something about policies. We also have things like freedom of assembly and freedom of speech to allow us to express those opinions. Tactics to deny the opposing viewpoint, however fringe it might be, can hardly be described as democratic. In fact I'd say they are the opposite of democratic.
| 86 |
SixDegrees Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:05:28pm |
A much overwrought response, certainly.
But no matter who does it, shouting down someone's speech is odious in the extreme. I found it abhorrent when the TPers did it, and it's just as repugnant here.
| 87 |
Jetpilot1101 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:05:44pm |
re: #82 Decatur Deb
It is wrong to use that money to lie about scientific consensus.
Well I don't use my profits to lie about scientific consensus so I'll assume it's ok. I'm no climate change denier but I do a fair amount of trading and I trade to make money. I'm just wondering what the general opinion is on LGF.
| 88 |
SixDegrees Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:06:55pm |
re: #23 Charles
I don't think this is the best tactic to use, but on the other hand, the fact is that this is not a legitimate group of "skeptics." It's a front group for all kinds of bad people, including the tobacco industry, and Monckton's presence shows you how crazy they are.
There aren't any winners in a race to the bottom.
| 89 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:07:10pm |
re: #78 Jetpilot1101
Can I ask a simple question:
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
No. It's wrong to use that money to spread confusion and disinformation about a very serious issue in order to protect profits, though.
| 90 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:07:15pm |
re: #87 Jetpilot1101
Well I don't use my profits to lie about scientific consensus so I'll assume it's ok. I'm no climate change denier but I do a fair amount of trading and I trade to make money. I'm just wondering what the general opinion is on LGF.
Money is goood.
| 91 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:07:19pm |
re: #87 Jetpilot1101
Just guessing, but LGF seems heavily pro-market.
| 92 |
billbrent Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:07:41pm |
re: #77 recusancy
I think climate change is very real. I do, however, question the science about the dangers. And I'm more afraid of the suggested legislative "solutions" than the worst case scenarios presented by honest climate scientists.
| 93 |
Jetpilot1101 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:08:15pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
I don't think so but I suppose it's a personal choice.
I'm just looking for the general opinons on LGF. I know a lot of front groups opposed to climate change are the industries I mentioned. So where does one draw the line IRT owning and trading these companies which are obviously engaged in "climate change denialism"?
| 94 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:09:06pm |
re: #72 billbrent
You don't have to be "predisposed to believe the worst" to be horrified by the deliberate campaigns of disinformation and dishonesty thoroughly documented in that book.
| 95 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:09:11pm |
What is the most efficient form of solar energy storage?
Why does it get warmer in the summer and cooler in the winter?
Just asking.
| 96 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:10:37pm |
re: #79 kittysaidwoof
It was hardly a deliberate statement and would be way too harsh if it were part of say official statement. As something said in the heat of the moment it is quite understandable, given the tactics employed were reminiscent of Hitler Youth.
Only someone who has no idea what the Hitler Youth were, what they stood for, and what kind of tactics they used, could ever make such a ludicrous comparison.
| 97 |
SixDegrees Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:11:31pm |
re: #78 Jetpilot1101
Can I ask a simple question:
Is it wrong to make money on oil futures, natural gas stocks, utility companies, junior gold companies and drilling services companies?
Depends. Stock trading, for example, has little benefit to the company beyond the IPO, although continued high share prices may help when they're borrowing money. And if you feel otherwise, sell them short - you can still turn a profit while their share price is dropping.
And anyone who owns mutual funds probably owns fractional shares in a number of Big Evil Corporations at one time or another. The money still spends the same.
Direct investment in a company, on the other hand, may require more thorough ethical vetting.
| 98 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:11:32pm |
re: #81 Obdicut
How so? Please cite a time the Hitler youth peacefully disrupted a press conference, please.
I didn't realise this was a press conference. The introduction seemed to indicate it was some sort of welcoming speech to their obviously sparsely attended conference.
I stand corrected on the Hitler Youth issue. By quick google search I couldn't find any meetings interrupted by Hitler Youth. Quite possibly they never did such a thing and in such a case I must apologize to them. The problem is that the popular image of Hitler Youth is such that you sort of attribute things like this to them even though the real culprit might have been SA or something else.
I did find examples of similar things done by Putin youth. So this guy should be reprimanded for besmirching Hitler Youth unnecessarily and inaccurately while he could have used a much more accurate and modern reference.
| 99 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:12:06pm |
re: #71 gegenkritik
Good comparison! Debating a difficult scientifical problem among scientists is like Stalin's or Mao's reign.
By the way, I also think that the public should debate over the design of nuclear-plants and don't leave this for those arrogant wise men called scientists.
Could you possibly be any more bigoted toward science?
| 100 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:12:07pm |
re: #98 kittysaidwoof
I didn't realise this was a press conference. The introduction seemed to indicate it was some sort of welcoming speech to their obviously sparsely attended conference.
I stand corrected on the Hitler Youth issue. By quick google search I couldn't find any meetings interrupted by Hitler Youth. Quite possibly they never did such a thing and in such a case I must apologize to them. The problem is that the popular image of Hitler Youth is such that you sort of attribute things like this to them even though the real culprit might have been SA or something else.
I did find examples of similar things done by Putin youth. So this guy should be reprimanded for besmirching Hitler Youth unnecessarily and inaccurately while he could have used a much more accurate and modern reference.
Oh fuck you.
| 101 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:12:20pm |
This is exactly why a sizable percentage of the public (in more countries than one) is skeptical of AGW advocates, the tactics they use to silence any dissenting views whatsoever.
Let the science speak for itself. This guy would have been talking to an empty room anyway.
| 102 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:13:19pm |
re: #101 stayfrosty
I don't think that's why the public are skeptical. I think it's mainly because they've been fed a constant stream of anti-AGW propaganda and bullshit by front groups like the one hosting that meeting.
| 103 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:14:44pm |
| 104 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:15:07pm |
re: #55 billbrent
Is this the basis for them being labeled "bad people?" Or do you have evidence of some crime the Koch Family Foundations or Koch Industries has committed? Or is simply being in the energy, pipelines, refining, fertilizer, products, and chemical technology businesses prima facie evidence of criminal activity. . . or simply "badness"?
Americans for Prosperity - SourceWatch
AFP advocates pro-tobacco industry positions on issues like cigarette taxes and clean indoor air laws. The name "Americans for Prosperity" will sound familiar to tobacco prevention policy advocates, as Americans for Prosperity worked around the U.S. in recent years to defeat both smokefree workplace laws and cigarette excise tax increases.
Americans for Prosperity opposed a proposed Texas smoking ban in 2005. According to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, “A proposed statewide smoking ban appears all but dead, supporters acknowledged Monday as they waged a frantic battle to bring the bill up for a vote in the Senate. ‘I think the bill is dead,’ said Peggy Venable, Texas director of Americans for Prosperity, which opposed the legislation, arguing that it is an intrusion on private-property rights." The strategy of portraying smoking as a "property right" can be traced to Philip Morris which, in the mid-1990s, introduced bills in state legislatures nominally to protect property rights as a means of fighting smoking bans. Venable called the smoke-free measure a "reckless expansion of government" that "set a dangerous precedent." Although Venable did not testify against the bill directly on behalf of the tobacco industry, the Houston Chronicle reported in 2007 that Americans for Prosperity had, in fact, been underwritten by tobacco companies in other states.[10][11]
Americans for Prosperity opposes smoking bans by using slippery-slope arguments ("Where will it stop?") and erroneous arguments that smoking restrictions are economically damaging.[12][13]
Americans for Prosperity (AFP) also opposed an Illinois state tax on cigarettes in 2008, claiming it would eliminate jobs.[14]
AFP opposed a clean indoor air law in Washington, D.C. in 2006.[15]
AFP opposed a clean indoor air law in Kansas City, portraying the issue as one of personal liberty and economics rather than public health.
| 105 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:15:58pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
I don't think that's why the public are skeptical. I think it's mainly because they've been fed a constant stream of anti-AGW propaganda and bullshit by front groups like the one hosting that meeting.
I can only speak for my self but I have trust issues with people who deny free speech.
| 106 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:01pm |
re: #93 Jetpilot1101
It is s very interesting question. Investing is tough enough when you base your decisions on P/E ratios and financial reports. Ethical or political based investing decisions don't usually turn out well for most people unless they really know what they're doing. I did hold some RJR Reynolds once upon a time and sold it off due to ethical reasons. If you really want to stick it to the oil companies the best way is to stop using their product. I recently switched to free range chicken and eggs and I'm more concerned with ethical food issues these days. I think purchasing power has much more influence than stock purchases anyways.
| 107 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:33pm |
re: #95 worknhard
Why does it get warmer in the summer and cooler in the winter?
Just asking.
Earth tilts.
| 108 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:35pm |
Oddly enough, some of the same people who are getting upset about this demonstration were defending the tea partiers when they disrupted health care town hall meetings.
| 109 |
Sam N Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:46pm |
re: #86 SixDegrees
A much overwrought response, certainly.
But no matter who does it, shouting down someone's speech is odious in the extreme. I found it abhorrent when the TPers did it, and it's just as repugnant here.
I agree. I think AGW supporters should take a page out of the evolution supporters book. Be polite, let the idiots speak, then do your best to reveal their ignorance during the questions period.
| 110 |
SixDegrees Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:47pm |
re: #93 Jetpilot1101
I'm just looking for the general opinons on LGF. I know a lot of front groups opposed to climate change are the industries I mentioned. So where does one draw the line IRT owning and trading these companies which are obviously engaged in "climate change denialism"?
See above; I don't see how share purchases have much of an impact on what the company does on a day to day basis. It's not like they get anything out of the sale directly. Only the buyer, seller and broker are involved in the transaction.
And although an argument can be made that you're supporting their share price and thereby making it easier for them, for instance, to borrow money for further activities, I can't think of a single instance where even large, organized calls for investment boycotts had any meaningful impact.
| 111 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:16:59pm |
re: #82 Decatur Deb
It is wrong to use that money to lie about scientific consensus.
Are you sure they lie about it? Maybe they truly believe their position to be true and are only mistaken, or maybe you are mistaken, or me (I probably am).
I don't actually know all their positions so maybe they aren't even disagreeing on the consensus bit. As I learned only recently anybody who agrees on the following two questions are actually part of the consensus:
1. Have temperatures risen since 1800s
2. Is human activity a significant contributor to changes in climate
What if they agree with those positions?
| 112 |
Obdicut Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:17:19pm |
re: #105 brookly red
I can only speak for my self but I have trust issues with people who deny free speech.
Great. So don't trust that small group of protesters. Shouldn't affect your trust in climatologists one whit.
| 113 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:17:44pm |
re: #108 Charles
Oddly enough, some of the same people who are getting upset about this demonstration were defending the tea partiers when they disrupted health care town hall meetings.
It's odd how they weren't so quick to acknowledge the legality of the CRU hacking and then continue to use stolen information to make their cherry picked talking points.
| 114 |
Sharmuta Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:00pm |
re: #108 Charles
Oddly enough, some of the same people who are getting upset about this demonstration were defending the tea partiers when they disrupted health care town hall meetings.
Rules for Radicals is only fair when the kooks use them.
| 115 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:04pm |
re: #69 Obdicut
So you think him calling them Nazi Youth is okay, since they were disrupting his conference?
See #58. It isn't ok but it is free speech, something they were attempting to deny to him.
I think disrupting a conference for a fake industry group is about neutral on the ethics scale. I don't think it's an effective thing to do, but I don't feel bad for the poor fake industry front group.
My own view of this is not based on how I feel either way.
I think it would have been more effective to go there and just film the near-empty room and the dumb, hyperbolic speeches. I think they were silly to protest it.
No doubt that was in the process of being done before these children turned it into a publicity coup for the deniers.
I think that calling them Nazi Youth is worse.
We part ways here, I don't think stupid and offensive name calling is worse than denying someone the right to speak at all in his own forum.
| 116 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:05pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
I don't think that's why the public are skeptical. I think it's mainly because they've been fed a constant stream of anti-AGW propaganda and bullshit by front groups like the one hosting that meeting.
I think it's the exact opposite. For the last 25 years we have been fed a constant stream of man made global warming propaganda.
| 117 |
island Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:14pm |
Why doesn't anyone correct AlGore when he worries about 2 degrees of global warming yet goes around telling people the earth is as hot as the sun?
Conan Obrien Show-" Al: It definitely is, and it's a relatively new one. People think about geothermal energy — when they think about it at all — in terms of the hot water bubbling up in some places, but two kilometers or so down in most places there are these incredibly hot rocks, 'cause the interior of the earth is extremely hot, several million degrees …"
Just for info for Al- a gold mine, Tau Tona, where people work goes down to 3.9 km twice as deep as 2 km. Does he imagine people live and work at a million degrees Centigrade? I know people can't work at several million degrees. The surface of the sun is only 5,500 degrees C.
| 118 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:22pm |
re: #105 brookly red
I can only speak for my self but I have trust issues with people who deny free speech.
I thought protest WAS free speech?
| 119 |
davinvalkri Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:18:26pm |
re: #43 JasonA
How did you extract that bit of wisdom from my post? Because not everyone decides to crash someone else's gathering.
Yeah, probably right.
Okay, restatement: Elements of both sides on this science tussle are acting like twits.
| 120 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:19:27pm |
re: #42 gegenkritik
This book is recommended not only by Amazon, but also by well-known climate-scientist Leonardo DiCaprio. Hmmm.
Oh, please. They used a quote from DiCaprio as a blurb to advertise the book. It's ridiculous to get upset about that and dismiss the whole thing because of it.
| 121 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:19:27pm |
I thought the government over there gave the anti-AGW people their own venue to have their own meetings on the theory that they would be less likely to show up at and disrupt the COP15 conference?
Instead of leaveing them in peace these idiots have to go over there just to disrupt the opposition meetings? Way to show your tolerence and maturity you idiots. :(
| 122 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:19:48pm |
re: #93 Jetpilot1101
I'm just looking for the general opinons on LGF. I know a lot of front groups opposed to climate change are the industries I mentioned. So where does one draw the line IRT owning and trading these companies which are obviously engaged in "climate change denialism"?
Well not every type of company you listed is involved in climate change denialism so it's hard to take just a carte blanch sort of view in the first place. I'm personally not against making money that way but I think it's a personal decision on just how far you take whatever ethical or moral positions you have on the issue. I don't trade but I do have a few small investments in ethical mutual funds, but that's me.
If you are concerned you could always find out who the worst ones are and decide whether or not to avoid them.
| 123 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:19:50pm |
re: #103 recusancy
I don't want Google's answer's. I want yours.
| 124 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:21:38pm |
OT,
James Taranto's most recent socialized medicine discussion:
Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
"British health care is little better than that of former Communist countries, which spend a fraction of the billions poured into the NHS"--the National Health Service--reports London's Daily Mail:
British cancer and heart attack victims are more likely to die than almost anywhere in the developed world;
Asthma and diabetes patients are more than three times as likely to end up in hospital as their neighbours in Germany;
Life expectancy in Britain--79 years and six months for a man--is far worse than in France, where men expect to live until 81. The deficit is similar for women.
Britain performed only marginally better than former Communist states whose governments spend only half as much on healthcare.
But there is also good news for Brits, courtesy of former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."
| 125 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:21:42pm |
re: #123 worknhard
I don't want Google's answer's. I want yours.
What are you trying to get at? The earth tilts and liquid sodium.
| 126 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:21:45pm |
re: #98 kittysaidwoof
Going for the annefrance medal, are we?
| 127 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:22:13pm |
re: #71 gegenkritik
By the way, I also think that the public should debate over the design of nuclear-plants and don't leave this for those arrogant wise men called scientists.
Public should (and does) debate ober the design of nuclear plants and more importantly whether and where to build them. While it is essential to consult the arrogant wise men called scientists to get the information needed for such a debate, I know of no democratic society where the scientists could get to decide on policies related to matters of this magnitude without some sort of oversight by democratically elected bodies.
| 128 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:22:21pm |
| 129 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:22:58pm |
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
| 130 |
Jetpilot1101 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:23:16pm |
re: #106 Killgore Trout
Thanks for the insight. I'll have to look into your link IRT free range chikens and eggs. My wife feeds our family with good healthy food but maybe we could do a few things differently.
My questions were to get people to think about their investments because I have been thinking about mine as well. Last year during the "solar bubble", I made a ton and shortly thereafter, made a bundle on oil futures when the price went from $40 to $70. While I am thankful for the gains, they made me pause and rethink the ethical and moral purposes of the investments. I'm not trying to wax all phylosophical, just trying to gauge opinions here.
| 131 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:24:43pm |
re: #111 kittysaidwoof
Are you sure they lie about it? Maybe they truly believe their position to be true and are only mistaken, or maybe you are mistaken, or me (I probably am).
I don't actually know all their positions so maybe they aren't even disagreeing on the consensus bit. As I learned only recently anybody who agrees on the following two questions are actually part of the consensus:
1. Have temperatures risen since 1800s
2. Is human activity a significant contributor to changes in climate
What if they agree with those positions?
Even if they reject the consensus personnally, that does not mean there is no agreement among reputable specialists in the field. Your last couple lines seem to agree with that. LGF commenters who are more expert than I have devoted a lot of time to this in the last few weeks, time that could have been spent on fish puns.
| 132 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:25:07pm |
re: #129 Charles
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
And in this particular case they were far less threatening if at all.
I'm pretty sure whoever blogs lightweight protest this will end up calling them "radical environmentalists!"
| 133 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:25:32pm |
re: #129 Charles
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
That's all your opinion really. Most of the people advocating the public option were spreading lies that it would save Americans money, when the CBO's own estimates showed it would bend the cost curve up. There's dishonesty where you want to look.
This guy we've never heard of doing his talking points in an empty room is no different than those same politicians.
| 134 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:26:24pm |
re: #124 rwdflynavy
OT,
James Taranto's most recent socialized medicine discussion:
Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
"British health care is little better than that of former Communist countries, which spend a fraction of the billions poured into the NHS"--the National Health Service--reports London's Daily Mail:
British cancer and heart attack victims are more likely to die than almost anywhere in the developed world;
Asthma and diabetes patients are more than three times as likely to end up in hospital as their neighbours in Germany;
Life expectancy in Britain--79 years and six months for a man--is far worse than in France, where men expect to live until 81. The deficit is similar for women.
Britain performed only marginally better than former Communist states whose governments spend only half as much on healthcare.
But there is also good news for Brits, courtesy of former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."
France's system is great. And it's one of the best in the world. And it costs less than half per capita than the steaming pile of insurance company elephant shit we have here in America.
I'd run around like I won the Super Bowl if we had France's system here. Of course the GOP and blue dog Democrat insurance company lapdogs will do everything in their power to prevent anything like that from happening.
So why not take on Medicare? That;s socialized, right? Are you going to advocate tearing Medicare down?
| 135 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:26:53pm |
re: #125 recusancy
What I'm getting at is the sun is our primary source of heat and energy.
Nature has shown us that petroleum and natural gas are the most efficient forms of storage of solar energy.
Tilting of the earth does not warm the earth. the sun does.
by the way the oceans are warmed by the sun.
Peace and love to all.
| 136 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:27:06pm |
re: #130 Jetpilot1101
Thanks for the insight. I'll have to look into your link IRT free range chikens and eggs. My wife feeds our family with good healthy food but maybe we could do a few things differently.
My questions were to get people to think about their investments because I have been thinking about mine as well. Last year during the "solar bubble", I made a ton and shortly thereafter, made a bundle on oil futures when the price went from $40 to $70. While I am thankful for the gains, they made me pause and rethink the ethical and moral purposes of the investments. I'm not trying to wax all phylosophical, just trying to gauge opinions here.
We need more people like you giving pause and thinking about what they are doing. And btw... I eat free range chicken eggs and they seem to be larger and tastier. It's worth the extra dollar or so for a dozen.
| 137 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:27:40pm |
re: #133 stayfrosty
That's all your opinion really. Most of the people advocating the public option were spreading lies that it would save Americans money, when the CBO's own estimates showed it would bend the cost curve up. There's dishonesty where you want to look.
This guy we've never heard of doing his talking points in an empty room is no different than those same politicians.
No, it's not just my opinion, these are facts. Christopher Monckton is a conspiracy nutjob. Americans for Prosperity is a dishonest shill for the tobacco industries and the energy industries, and they spread lies and confusion.
Facts. They're your friends.
| 138 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:30:31pm |
re: #135 worknhard
What I'm getting at is the sun is our primary source of heat and energy.
Nature has shown us that petroleum and natural gas are the most efficient forms of storage of solar energy.
Tilting of the earth does not warm the earth. the sun does.
by the way the oceans are warmed by the sun.
Peace and love to all.
Wow.
| 139 |
RogueOne Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:31:22pm |
The ultimate godwin...
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
So that now, sixty four years after the Holocaust, the Nazi disdain for the book has become the feel-good Hi-Tech campaign to rid the world of books in place of massive easily controlled centralized repositories of book texts downloadable on little hand-held devices and from which a text can be dissapeared with the click of a mouse: in Nazi terms, a dream come true.
His whole argument is the Kindle is evil and would have been on Hitlers christmas list. At first I thought it was a parody and I just kept waiting for the punchline but it never showed up.
| 140 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:31:50pm |
re: #133 stayfrosty
That's all your opinion really. Most of the people advocating the public option were spreading lies that it would save Americans money, when the CBO's own estimates showed it would bend the cost curve up. There's dishonesty where you want to look.
Yeah, you're actually flat wrong about that.
[Link: www.nola.com...]
"The CBO estimated that the public plan would offer premiums about 10 percent lower than private plans"
| 141 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:31:56pm |
re: #129 Charles
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
I didn't follow the townhalls too intently as the issue only concerns me indirectly - our socialized health care relies in part on your private health care innovations, and we already have the death panels so it would be only fair if you got them too - but wasn't the townhall meetings where the representatives invited people to discuss these issues and weren't the problem that some of these citizens invited there and asked to speak were just upset? Not uninvited guests storming in to shut down the opposing voices? If so then these two are not comparable. If not and there were similar attacks then those tea partiers or baggers or whatnot should be scolded as Putin youth as well.
| 142 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:32:01pm |
re: #137 Charles
No, it's not just my opinion, these are facts. Christopher Monckton is a conspiracy nutjob. Americans for Prosperity is a dishonest shill for the tobacco industries and the energy industries, and they spread lies and confusion.
Facts. They're your friends.
I have no doubt that he is. I never said he wasn't. I said he's no different from politicians who themselves were ignoring facts. All the statistics and data showed their plan would add to the deficit and bend the cost curve up, but they constantly denied it--not only denied it, but used gimmicks to hide the long term costs (such as having spending begin 4 years into the 10 year budget window so that the costs appeared to be half of what they really were.) Not the same tactics?
Both are illegitimate in my humble opinion.
| 143 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:33:56pm |
re: #133 stayfrosty
That's all your opinion really. Most of the people advocating the public option were spreading lies that it would save Americans money, when the CBO's own estimates showed it would bend the cost curve up. There's dishonesty where you want to look.
This guy we've never heard of doing his talking points in an empty room is no different than those same politicians.
That's absolutely false.
| 144 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:34:08pm |
re: #137 Charles
No, it's not just my opinion, these are facts. Christopher Monckton is a conspiracy nutjob. Americans for Prosperity is a dishonest shill for the tobacco industries and the energy industries, and they spread lies and confusion.
Oh the horror and now I feel compelled to find out what he has to say. And all because of those Mao? youths.
| 145 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:34:20pm |
re: #139 RogueOne
The ultimate godwin...
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
His whole argument is the Kindle is evil and would have been on Hitlers christmas list. At first I thought it was a parody and I just kept waiting for the punchline but it never showed up.
Just read it. That's pretty nutty.
| 146 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:35:09pm |
re: #139 RogueOne
The ultimate godwin...
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
His whole argument is the Kindle is evil and would have been on Hitlers christmas list. At first I thought it was a parody and I just kept waiting for the punchline but it never showed up.
The Kindle isn't evil, but DRM protected digital books will have many of the the same problems as DRM music. Can't loan out music if it's stuck on your iPod, can't loan out a book if it's stuck in digital lockup on your Kindle on your hard drive.
| 147 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:35:33pm |
re: #142 stayfrosty
I have no doubt that he is. I never said he wasn't. I said he's no different from politicians who themselves were ignoring facts. All the statistics and data showed their plan would add to the deficit and bend the cost curve up, but they constantly denied it--not only denied it, but used gimmicks to hide the long term costs (such as having spending begin 4 years into the 10 year budget window so that the costs appeared to be half of what they really were.) Not the same tactics?
Both are illegitimate in my humble opinion.
You're either lying, or you're listening to liars. Which is it?
| 148 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:35:49pm |
re: #144 kittysaidwoof
Oh the horror and now I feel compelled to find out what he has to say. And all because of those Mao? youths.
Ahh... The "I'm going to be dumb to spite you" response.
| 149 |
borgcube Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:36:08pm |
I have some trick questions I sneak in when screening prospective employees. I think I'm going to add one or two to uncover young environmentalists so I can send them to greener pastures so to speak. They're on my list now along with people whose first question to me is about healthcare benefits and vacation time, and/or those who tell me that they like to play computer games or fantasy league sports in their spare time.
| 150 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:37:22pm |
re: #143 recusancy
That's absolutely false.
Oh really?
“On the contrary,” Elmendorf said, “the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health-care costs.”
Though President Obama and Democratic leaders have said repeatedly that reining in the skyrocketing growth in spending on government health programs such as Medicaid and Medicare is their top priority, the reform measures put forth so far would not fulfill their pledge to “bend the cost curve” downward, Elmendorf said. Instead, he said, “The curve is being raised.”
This has remained constant through the bill's various forms. Douglas Elmendorf, by the way, is the director of the CBO.
| 151 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:37:46pm |
re: #142 stayfrosty
I have no doubt that he is. I never said he wasn't. I said he's no different from politicians who themselves were ignoring facts. All the statistics and data showed their plan would add to the deficit and bend the cost curve up, but they constantly denied it--not only denied it, but used gimmicks to hide the long term costs (such as having spending begin 4 years into the 10 year budget window so that the costs appeared to be half of what they really were.) Not the same tactics?
Both are illegitimate in my humble opinion.
| 152 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:38:04pm |
re: #144 kittysaidwoof
Oh the horror and now I feel compelled to find out what he has to say. And all because of those Mao? youths.
I'm not surprised. Go right ahead and get your information on climate change from Christopher Monckton -- it's pretty clear you'll swallow any kind of nonsense the denial industry feeds you.
| 153 |
RogueOne Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:38:14pm |
re: #146 WindUpBird
The Kindle isn't evil, but DRM protected digital books will have many of the the same problems as DRM music. Can't loan out music if it's stuck on your iPod, can't loan out a book if it's stuck in digital lockup on your Kindle on your hard drive.
I don't like DRM either but the kindle isn't a nazi plot. The title of the article is: Google Books And Kindles: A Concentration Camp Of Ideas. He compares the Kindle to:
The Nazis often were, by their own lights, well-intentioned idealists working for a better tomorrow. And their instrument was modern technology, aspects of philosophical and aesthetic modernism and the old religious concept of supercession implicit in the Christian notion of progress. Jews were outmoded, useless, they said. Most high level Nazis, like Himmler or Heydrich or Eichmann, did not feel visceral hatred towards the Jew. Rather, they looked upon them coldly as something that simply needed to disappear so that the new life could get on its way.
| 154 |
island Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:38:33pm |
Scientists say 6 million years ago the Mediterranean Sea was dry. Then global warming flooded it in about 2 years. Dam cave men and their fires.
"The Mediterranean Sea was mostly filled in less than two years in a dramatic flood around 5.33 million years ago in which water poured in from the Atlantic, according to a study published Wednesday. Sea water flooded in through the Strait of Gibraltar at a rate three times the current flow of the Amazon River, said the report publish by the scientific journal Nature. "
| 155 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:39:04pm |
"He was out of his mind in 1983... It's taken the rest of us a long time to catch up to him, Ron Paul is next..."
Ron Paul on Auditing the FED & financial regulatory bill update12/9/09 - Glenn Beck Show
| 156 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:39:36pm |
re: #148 recusancy
Ahh... The "I'm going to be dumb to spite you" response.
I'm dumb by nature. It has nothing to do with you.
I do want to do my small bit though to show that these kinds of tactics are counterproductive. At least I hope they are. They should be.
| 157 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:39:38pm |
Here we go again with the denial talking points.
| 158 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:40:43pm |
re: #99 Charles
Actually I am not the bigoted one. I think the bigots are those, who either appear on freak-shows like Alex Jones' or storm press-conferences and make a religion about a scientific issue by calling other scientists "deniers".
To be honest: I don't have any clue about this climate-debate. I am not a scientist. That's why I don't make statements like "There is no climate-change! It's an evil conspiracy of the environmentalists!" or "Curse you, climate deniers! It's getting hotter and we all gonna die!". But I never heard that Leonardo DiCaprio is actually a climate-scientist.
What I know is that there exists different scientific opinions about whether or not (or how much) climate is changing.
And I see some very exaggerated reactions on both side.
That's why I would like to have this debate not in the public, where laymen who read some books and websites flame each other, but only among scientists of this issue.
Personally I think that there are much more important issues in the world.
As I said before: I can tell you, that if Iran gets a nuclear-bomb, there will be a rapid change of climate in the Mideast.
| 159 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:40:44pm |
re: #130 Jetpilot1101
My questions were to get people to think about their investments because I have been thinking about mine as well. Last year during the "solar bubble", I made a ton and shortly thereafter, made a bundle on oil futures when the price went from $40 to $70. While I am thankful for the gains, they made me pause and rethink the ethical and moral purposes of the investments. I'm not trying to wax all phylosophical, just trying to gauge opinions here.
It sounds like you know what you're doing. Most of the people I've talked to about ethical investing are trust fund lefties who don't understand finance. They get these ideas about a company they read about in Mother Jones. It never seems to end well.
| 160 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:40:53pm |
re: #149 borgcube
I have some trick questions I sneak in when screening prospective employees. I think I'm going to add one or two to uncover young environmentalists so I can send them to greener pastures so to speak. They're on my list now along with people whose first question to me is about healthcare benefits and vacation time, and/or those who tell me that they like to play computer games or fantasy league sports in their spare time.
I'm curious why this is relevant. ;-)
| 161 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:41:29pm |
re: #152 Charles
I'm not surprised. Go right ahead and get your information on climate change from Christopher Monckton -- it's pretty clear you'll swallow any kind of nonsense the denial industry feeds you.
I'll happily read your links as well and swallow anything I see there as well.
| 162 |
bratwurst Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:41:52pm |
re: #149 borgcube
I have some trick questions I sneak in when screening prospective employees. I think I'm going to add one or two to uncover young environmentalists so I can send them to greener pastures so to speak.
"So do you hate clean air and water?"
| 163 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:41:54pm |
re: #161 kittysaidwoof
I'll happily read your links as well and swallow anything I see there as well.
Really? When do you plan to start?
| 165 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:42:26pm |
| 166 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:42:39pm |
re: #154 island
Scientists say 6 million years ago the Mediterranean Sea was dry. Then global warming flooded it in about 2 years. Dam cave men and their fires.
"The Mediterranean Sea was mostly filled in less than two years in a dramatic flood around 5.33 million years ago in which water poured in from the Atlantic, according to a study published Wednesday. Sea water flooded in through the Strait of Gibraltar at a rate three times the current flow of the Amazon River, said the report publish by the scientific journal Nature. "
Please stop polluting the internet with your garbage.
| 167 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:43:16pm |
re: #157 Charles
Here we go again with the denial talking points.
Its quite cold outside, Charles. Therefore, I do not believe Global Warming to be real.
| 168 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:44:08pm |
re: #167 Racer X
Its quite cold outside, Charles. Therefore, I do not believe Global Warming to be real.
These people would look at a 747 and proclaim that it cannot fly because it's too heavy. :D
| 169 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:44:09pm |
re: #163 Charles
Really? When do you plan to start?
I've been lurking in you blog for ages as you can probably see and I do find stuff you link interesting. Why else would I be here? Its not like I feel myself cosy and welcome, but that's ok, I am not here for that.
| 170 |
stayfrosty Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:44:23pm |
re: #151 recusancy
You do realize the CBO is looking at a 10 year budget window only, and Democrats specifically rigged the bill to begin spending only after 2014, although taxation begins immediately, an an attempt to push most of the spending into the next 10 year window, which is not estimated by the CBO?
The Cato Institute has shown this repeatedly. They've also shown how if the government requires a citizen to pay them $10,000, it's treated as a tax. And if the government pays a private company $10,000, it's treated as spending. But in this plan, where citizens will be forced to directly pay a "non profit" or private insurance company that same amount, it's completely omitted from the CBO's cost analysis.
Still, looking long term, every report has shown it will ultimately bend the cost curve up.
| 171 |
Digital Display Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:44:41pm |
The resemblance between Id'ers and Climate deniers is striking...
It's like suddenly science is under attack when it doesn't fit the religion of pre-conceived concepts..Welcome to the 18th Century.
| 172 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:45:05pm |
re: #127 kittysaidwoof
May I ask you in which country do you live, where the public decides over the design of nuclear-powerplants?
| 173 |
island Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:45:15pm |
re: #166 WindUpBird
another science denialist. You would have hung Galileo if you had your choice.
| 174 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:45:18pm |
re: #170 stayfrosty
Keep on spinning, dude!
| 175 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:45:44pm |
re: #171 HoosierHoops
The resemblance between Id'ers and Climate deniers is striking...
It's like suddenly science is under attack when it doesn't fit the religion of pre-conceived concepts..Welcome to the18th15th Century.
FTFY
| 176 |
Sharmuta Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:46:20pm |
re: #170 stayfrosty
Cato is a bunch of Birchers. Do you have a more credible source?
| 177 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:46:25pm |
re: #168 WindUpBird
These people would look at a 747 and proclaim that it cannot fly because it's too heavy. :D
Used to be said about bees. You'd think they would have the decency to walk from flower to flower until the theory catches up.
| 178 |
Jadespring Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:46:39pm |
re: #130 Jetpilot1101
Thanks for the insight. I'll have to look into your link IRT free range chikens and eggs. My wife feeds our family with good healthy food but maybe we could do a few things differently.
My questions were to get people to think about their investments because I have been thinking about mine as well. Last year during the "solar bubble", I made a ton and shortly thereafter, made a bundle on oil futures when the price went from $40 to $70. While I am thankful for the gains, they made me pause and rethink the ethical and moral purposes of the investments. I'm not trying to wax all phylosophical, just trying to gauge opinions here.
To me it's similar sort of pondering that I had to go through when I was working on large eco-building project. We were offered a rather large chunk of funding from a major corporation that was not exactly known for it's environmental record. Of course part of the stipulation was a nice big plaque and logo on the donation wall. So what to do? Turn it down because of the history as well as the knowledge that the funding comes as much out of their own PR strategy to appear 'green' as any desire to just be generous or take the money with the understanding that at least we were taking their profits and turning them into something decent and suck up the PR and advertising they'd get out of it. I don't think there is any right answer as there were good points to be made on either side of it.
| 179 |
Jaerik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:50:24pm |
re: #14 Cato the Elder
By the way, I no more see why we should applaud the gate-crashing of a peaceful, if misguided, conference by people many of us most sincerely disagree with (I assume the "deniers" paid for the venue) than we should cheer the illegal hacking of a climatology center.
But maybe I'm terminally equitable, or something.
I agree. They're terminally misguided, sure. But at this point, the sheer jaw-dropping departure from reality necessary to hold their present beliefs pretty much excludes the possibility of them changing their minds. You can't change the mind of someone who rejects science by using... more science.
Crashing their event is just childish. It's no different from the crazies that tried to crash the town hall meetings in August.
| 180 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:50:27pm |
re: #168 WindUpBird
These people would look at a 747 and proclaim that it cannot fly because it's too heavy. :D
It should not fly because Boeing gets tax breaks and defense contracts!
/Tea Party!
/
| 181 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:50:40pm |
re: #170 stayfrosty
You do realize the CBO is looking at a 10 year budget window only, and Democrats specifically rigged the bill to begin spending only after 2014, although taxation begins immediately, an an attempt to push most of the spending into the next 10 year window, which is not estimated by the CBO?
The Cato Institute has shown this repeatedly. They've also shown how if the government requires a citizen to pay them $10,000, it's treated as a tax. And if the government pays a private company $10,000, it's treated as spending. But in this plan, where citizens will be forced to directly pay a "non profit" or private insurance company that same amount, it's completely omitted from the CBO's cost analysis.
Still, looking long term, every report has shown it will ultimately bend the cost curve up.
He saying we should treat what we spend on private insurance as part of the "cost". So we already pay somewhere around 5.5 trillion then. That's just stupid. If you want to call private health insurance a tax, be my guest. And that has nothing to do with the public option.
| 183 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:51:37pm |
re: #180 Gus 802
It should not fly because Boeing gets tax breaks and defense contracts!
/Tea Party!
/
hahaha my whole extended family worked for Boeing, except me and my father. :D
| 184 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:51:56pm |
re: #172 gegenkritik
May I ask you in which country do you live, where the public decides over the design of nuclear-powerplants?
I live sort of on the Finnish gulf which is between Estland and Finland. In Finland they are building a new nuclear plant right now. It was preceded by a decade long public discussion and debate over whether to build it and which type it should be. In Estland there are plans to build one and the discussion over various designs, the location, etc etc. is starting. We naturally already have numerous petitions against them as nobody wants to live near one. So whether there is going to be one or not and which kind is going to be a huge political fight
| 185 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:52:00pm |
re: #182 wrenchwench
You listened to Limbaugh today, right?
Hah! Tell me that was a Limblob talking point.
| 187 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:53:10pm |
re: #120 Charles
Oh, please. They used a quote from DiCaprio as a blurb to advertise the book. It's ridiculous to get upset about that and dismiss the whole thing because of it.
Ok, you are somewhat right here. But I still find it a little bit strange to have an actor promoting a debated scientific issue.
Maybe I'll buy and read this book over holidays.
| 188 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:53:51pm |
re: #176 Sharmuta
Cato is a bunch of Birchers. Do you have a more credible source?
They're trying to pretend that nobody currently pays for health insurance now. And when the reform goes into law all of a sudden everybody will be buying health insurance. So if you chose to keep your healthcare plan and change nothing they would include that as part of the "cost". As if it didn't already exist and you weren't already paying it.
| 189 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:55:51pm |
re: #184 kittysaidwoof
By design I didn't meant where it is built, but its functions. And I think that even in Suomi the public does not decide about the building technique of the cooling-towers, for example.
| 190 |
stevedecatur Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:56:09pm |
I don't like this one bit. Reminds me of the Islamic Student Association and the anti-semitic white hipsters assaulting Jewish and pro-Israel organized conferences on campuses in North America.
I have no sympathy for the pseudo-scientific propaganda of the climate change denial movement's but they have every right to speak freely and make themselves the ass in peaceful assembly.
| 191 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:56:15pm |
OT... I am really starting to want a Barack Obama Bronze Collector's Bust.
It's only $499.00, and some of the money goes to Kenyan Charities.
C'mon somebody. Buy one for meee!
| 192 |
worknhard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:56:21pm |
| 193 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:57:21pm |
re: #179 Jaerik
I agree. They're terminally misguided, sure. But at this point, the sheer jaw-dropping departure from reality necessary to hold their present beliefs pretty much excludes the possibility of them changing their minds. You can't change the mind of someone who rejects science by using... more science.
Crashing their event is just childish. It's no different from the crazies that tried to crash the town hall meetings in August.
I'm not defending this, and I don't think these are the right tactics to use, but I disagree strongly that this is just like the town hall meeting disruptions.
Americans for Prosperity and Christopher Monckton are not honest players in this game. Their only purpose in Copenhagen is to spread lies and confusion. While I don't agree with these kinds of tactics, I have a lot of sympathy for the incredible frustration they feel over seeing liars and industry shills and conspiracy-promoting wackos like Monckton spouting nonsense -- the only purpose of which is to confuse and mislead people about an important issue.
| 194 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:58:22pm |
re: #188 recusancy
They're trying to pretend that nobody currently pays for health insurance now. And when the reform goes into law all of a sudden everybody will be buying health insurance. So if you chose to keep your healthcare plan and change nothing they would include that as part of the "cost". As if it didn't already exist and you weren't already paying it.
If I had a dollar for every time I tried to explain to someone that just because it is deducted from my pay before I see it it dosen't mean I am not paying for it I would be able to actually see a doctor.
| 195 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:58:24pm |
re: #176 Sharmuta
If the tax system is adjusted and revenues increase before changes are made to how those revenues are spent; the difference builds a balance so that an accounting trick is performed in plain sight. You can claim a balanced budget over the span of 10 years by providing tax revenues for the entire 10 year period while expending those revenues over the condensed 7 year period.
This has to do with the phase in of the health care changes proffered under the various plans while the tax changes would come ahead of the health care changes.
The deficits accelerate the further away from passage you get; and the CBO notes that the costs will outstrip revenues in short order. That means that deficits are inevitable under the proposals.
The Economist found pretty much the same thing.
| 196 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:59:54pm |
re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
OT... I am really starting to want a Barack Obama Bronze Collector's Bust.
It's only $499.00, and some of the money goes to Kenyan Charities.
C'mon somebody. Buy one for meee!
would you take a cheezy calender from Barns and Nobel instead?...and I mean cheezy...almost laughed out loud when I saw that thing
| 198 |
webevintage Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:00:57pm |
re: #134 WindUpBird
I'd run around like I won the Super Bowl if we had France's system here.
Or Sweden's.
Which might just be close to what we end up with.
| 199 |
Digital Display Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:01:37pm |
re: #184 kittysaidwoof
I live sort of on the Finnish gulf which is between Estland and Finland. In Finland they are building a new nuclear plant right now. It was preceded by a decade long public discussion and debate over whether to build it and which type it should be. In Estland there are plans to build one and the s, discussion over various designsthe location, etc etc. is starting. We naturally already have numerous petitions against them as nobody wants to live near one. So whether there is going to be one or not and which kind is going to be a huge political fight
Holy shit! You mean the general public decided on Nuclear types and Designs?
So how did you vote on primary bundle types, cooling and containments?
I'm thinking I'm sticking with Nuclear Engineers and not the voting 'intelligent' public.
| 200 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:02:01pm |
re: #195 lawhawk
If the tax system is adjusted and revenues increase before changes are made to how those revenues are spent; the difference builds a balance so that an accounting trick is performed in plain sight. You can claim a balanced budget over the span of 10 years by providing tax revenues for the entire 10 year period while expending those revenues over the condensed 7 year period.
This has to do with the phase in of the health care changes proffered under the various plans while the tax changes would come ahead of the health care changes.
The deficits accelerate the further away from passage you get; and the CBO notes that the costs will outstrip revenues in short order. That means that deficits are inevitable under the proposals.
The Economist found pretty much the same thing.
But that isn't due to the public option.
| 201 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:02:24pm |
re: #153 RogueOne
Oh, the article is walnuts, on this we agree. 8-) But as someone who has experienced much frustration trying to exercise fair use with my music purchases (and almost being fucking ROOTKITTED by Sony in the process!) I can see there being some resentment about the digital-is-always-better thing.
| 202 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:03:42pm |
re: #201 WindUpBird
... and almost being fucking ROOTKITTED by Sony in the process! ...
The Imogen Heap album?
| 203 |
CyanSnowHawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:04:50pm |
re: #202 Charles
The Imogen Heap album?
Was that the only one? I thought there about 5 albums that did that.
| 204 |
Sharmuta Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:04:54pm |
I found this earlier, but since we're talking fiscal matter, I'll link it again
Budget hawks propose commission to control debt
Senate budget hawks on Wednesday unveiled a proposal that aims to get the national debt under control by forming a bipartisan commission to make tough decisions that they do not trust Congress to make on its own.
Might be a good idea.
| 205 |
LotharBot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:05:03pm |
Am I supposed to see either side here as "good guys"? On the one hand, we have a bunch of nutjobs having a meeting about spreading their nutjobbery, and on the other hand we have a bunch of jerks breaking into a nutjob meeting in order to disrupt them, thereby handing them ammunition for their claim that their views are being suppressed.
I'd say the same thing if they'd broken into a meeting of Scientologists, Satanists, Code Pinkos, or even Fred Phelps' group. They may be nuts, but they have the right to peacefully assemble and to share their ideas with each other (though Denmark may not recognize those universal human rights), and the rest of us do NOT have the right to break into their meetings to harass them.
| 206 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:05:36pm |
re: #189 gegenkritik
By design I didn't meant where it is built, but its functions. And I think that even in Suomi the public does not decide about the building technique of the cooling-towers, for example.
Obviously the public did not and is not going to draw up the designs, but the public does have a lot to say about which types of plants can even be considered. In Finland the parliament decided to allow the building of an EPR-type plant which is supposedly the first of its kind in the world. So while I cannot remember a public debate ovar the technique of cooling-towers in particular, the political decision-making process did go into technical details. As it should, for we need somebody to hold accountable.
The same goes for the results of Copenhagen, if any. Our way right-wing government wants to get a firm agreement which your left-wing president is probably not going to agree to. Which is all for the better, because our very right-wing government has discovered that it can freely reduce all other taxes while it reaps the benefits of AGW by taxing anything putting out emissions.
| 207 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:05:46pm |
re: #200 recusancy
But that isn't due to the public option.
The issue I have with the public option has little to do with costs. I'm quite willing to accept higheer costs to keep the government from running a health care plan that they can subsidize with tax dollars and run private insurers out of the market. I regard the public option as a stalking horse and oppose it for that reason.
| 208 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:06:11pm |
re: #198 webevintage
Or Sweden's.
Which might just be close to what we end up with.
/If you are bleeding from your nose & mouth please press 1 now...
If you are bleeding from some other orifice please press 2 now...
If you are unable to press 2 please press 3 now...
| 209 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:06:30pm |
re: #203 CyanSnowHawk
Was that the only one? I thought there about 5 albums that did that.
I think it was the most high profile example.
I was always surprised that the artists whose albums Sony tried to use to hack into people's systems didn't sue the crap out of Sony for damaging their careers.
| 212 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:07:13pm |
re: #204 Sharmuta
I found this earlier, but since we're talking fiscal matter, I'll link it again
Budget hawks propose commission to control debt
Might be a good idea.
Agreed. A critical question would be: how are the commissions seats to be filled?
| 213 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:07:31pm |
Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is a Washington D.C.-based conservative political advocacy group which describes itself on its Web site as "... an organization of grassroots leaders who engage citizens in the name of limited government and free markets on the local, state and federal levels." It was founded in 2004 by David H. Koch of Koch Industries...
David H. Koch
From SourceWatch
Jump to: navigation, search
David H. Koch is one of the billionaire co-owners of Koch Industries. With his brother, Charles G. Koch, he runs the Koch Family Foundations, one of the largest single sources of funding for conservative organizations in the United States.
Koch Industries received a $30,000,000.00 criminal fine in March 2000:
"$30 Million Settlement Approved - US v Koch U. S. District Judge Vanessa Gilmore approved the Department of Justice and State of Texas' settlement with Koch Industries for $30 million in civil penalties and an additional $5 million in supplemental environmental projects to be funded by Koch. This is the largest penalty imposed on a company under federal environmental laws, and is based upon spills of at least 41,000 barrels of oil and other petroleum, resulting in over three hundred violations of the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 in six states. The largest single spill was approximately100,000 gallons of crude oil which caused a 12-mile oil slick on Nueces Bay and Corpus Christi Bay. Eroded and broken pipelines caused the spills. Six of the spills were into ponds, lakes and rivers."
During the 1990s, the firm's faulty pipelines were responsible for more than 300 oil spills in five states, prompting a penalty of $35 million. In 1996, a flawed pipeline caused an explosion outside of Dallas in which two teenagers were killed. In a lawsuit related to the deaths, a trial court returned a judgment of $376.69 million against the company.
| 214 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:08:12pm |
re: #207 Dark_Falcon
The issue I have with the public option has little to do with costs. I'm quite willing to accept higheer costs to keep the government from running a health care plan that they can subsidize with tax dollars and run private insurers out of the market. I regard the public option as a stalking horse and oppose it for that reason.
It would not be subsidized. You would buy in with premiums the same way you do with private insurance. It would just be a larger pool.
But it's moot because the dems are pussies and dropped it in the senate. On the bright side we may get expanded medicare.
| 215 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:08:42pm |
re: #200 recusancy
How exactly is the public option being paid for unless you take into account all the revenues under the proposal? The proposal bases its revenues on a 10 year basis, but the phase in works only for the final seven years of the 10-year period.
That includes the public option.
The whole proposal is fiscally irresponsible and the only way the Democrats can push this as being "fiscally neutral" is to take in more revenues towards the plan before all the changes kick in.
It also makes assumptions about revenues from penalties and other tax changes that are all too likely to fall short, particularly in a recessionary environment (not the current recession, but any recession occurring within the 10 year period).
The numbers simply do not add up - line up 10 year costs with 10 year revenues, and you get red ink. Lots of it. Public option will only make it worse.
| 216 |
Ericus58 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:09:25pm |
re: #183 WindUpBird
Yes, I'll out myself - I also work for Boeing, 23 years next month actually.
And yes, the 747 does fly ;)
I've had the joy of working every commercial line here in the Northwest.
Now if we can get the "Plastic Fantastic" to fly... it's been a tough 3 years so far on it. But we are close to the finish line for 1st flight.
| 217 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:09:36pm |
re: #206 kittysaidwoof
So while I cannot remember a public debate ovar the technique of cooling-towers in particular, the political decision-making process did go into technical details.
And which technical details?
I rather see nuclear-scientists and excellent architects deciding the design of a nuclear- powerplant than the public.
| 218 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:09:37pm |
re: #215 lawhawk
How exactly is the public option being paid for unless you take into account all the revenues under the proposal? The proposal bases its revenues on a 10 year basis, but the phase in works only for the final seven years of the 10-year period.
That includes the public option.
The whole proposal is fiscally irresponsible and the only way the Democrats can push this as being "fiscally neutral" is to take in more revenues towards the plan before all the changes kick in.
It also makes assumptions about revenues from penalties and other tax changes that are all too likely to fall short, particularly in a recessionary environment (not the current recession, but any recession occurring within the 10 year period).
The numbers simply do not add up - line up 10 year costs with 10 year revenues, and you get red ink. Lots of it. Public option will only make it worse.
Quite Concur.
| 219 |
RogueOne Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:11:35pm |
re: #203 CyanSnowHawk
Was that the only one? I thought there about 5 albums that did that.
There were quite a few of them actually. I remember having to do the removal and I didn't buy anymore CD's. I went straight to digital but then I went through a massive hassle when yahoo music sold to Rhapsody. Now I don't do DRM in any fashion. They can kiss my ass. ;)
| 220 |
CyanSnowHawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:11:36pm |
re: #209 Charles
I think it was the most high profile example.
I was always surprised that the artists whose albums Sony tried to use to hack into people's systems didn't sue the crap out of Sony for damaging their careers.
I imagine that they had something buried in their contracts with the artists that may have prevented that.
I found a partial list of CDs that used the XCP protection that was compiled by EFF.
Trey Anastasio, Shine (Columbia)
Celine Dion, On ne Change Pas (Epic)
Neil Diamond, 12 Songs (Columbia)
Our Lady Peace, Healthy in Paranoid Times (Columbia)
Chris Botti, To Love Again (Columbia)
Van Zant, Get Right with the Man (Columbia)
Switchfoot, Nothing is Sound (Columbia)
The Coral, The Invisible Invasion (Columbia)
Acceptance, Phantoms (Columbia)
Susie Suh, Susie Suh (Epic)
Amerie, Touch (Columbia)
Life of Agony, Broken Valley (Epic)
Horace Silver Quintet, Silver's Blue (Epic Legacy)
Gerry Mulligan, Jeru (Columbia Legacy)
Dexter Gordon, Manhattan Symphonie (Columbia Legacy)
The Bad Plus, Suspicious Activity (Columbia)
The Dead 60s, The Dead 60s (Epic)
Dion, The Essential Dion (Columbia Legacy)
Natasha Bedingfield, Unwritten (Epic)
Ricky Martin, Life (Columbia)
| 221 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:12:02pm |
re: #213 Gus 802
Americans for Prosperity is the classic "astroturf" group, pretending to be grassroots while actually promoting the interests of Exxon-Mobil and R. J. Reynolds.
| 222 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:04pm |
re: #215 lawhawk
How exactly is the public option being paid for unless you take into account all the revenues under the proposal? The proposal bases its revenues on a 10 year basis, but the phase in works only for the final seven years of the 10-year period.
That includes the public option.
The whole proposal is fiscally irresponsible and the only way the Democrats can push this as being "fiscally neutral" is to take in more revenues towards the plan before all the changes kick in.
It also makes assumptions about revenues from penalties and other tax changes that are all too likely to fall short, particularly in a recessionary environment (not the current recession, but any recession occurring within the 10 year period).
The numbers simply do not add up - line up 10 year costs with 10 year revenues, and you get red ink. Lots of it. Public option will only make it worse.
I agree the "paid for meme" is quite wishful thinking. But the reason I started arguing this upthread was because the poster said it would bend the cost curve upwards which is untrue. A larger public pool would provide more leverage to negotiate prices downward.
| 223 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:08pm |
re: #214 recusancy
It would not be subsidized. You would buy in with premiums the same way you do with private insurance. It would just be a larger pool.
But it's moot because the dems are pussies and dropped it in the senate. On the bright side we may get expanded medicare.
That how it would start. But there not much more to say about this one. Your arguments are good, but they can't address my severe distrust of government nor my partisan distrust of Liberal Democrats. My opposition is partly practical but also ideological.
| 224 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:09pm |
Morality Index Score:
Americans for Prosperity - Founder with $30,000,000 in fines; $376,000,000 in civil judgements; 2 dead teenagers.
Young Environmentalists - 1 Press Conference Disruption; Monckton's nose hair view.
| 225 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:25pm |
re: #204 Sharmuta
That's sort of along the lines of the Base Realignment and Closure Commission. It is a tacit recognition that Congress is ineffective and incompetent to do its job of setting fiscal policy. It would be an abdication of their responsibility.
Yet, it might be the only thing to turn things around when you've got people like Charlie Rangel setting tax policy.
| 226 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:26pm |
re: #215 lawhawk
How exactly is the public option being paid for unless you take into account all the revenues under the proposal? The proposal bases its revenues on a 10 year basis, but the phase in works only for the final seven years of the 10-year period.
That includes the public option.
The whole proposal is fiscally irresponsible and the only way the Democrats can push this as being "fiscally neutral" is to take in more revenues towards the plan before all the changes kick in.
It also makes assumptions about revenues from penalties and other tax changes that are all too likely to fall short, particularly in a recessionary environment (not the current recession, but any recession occurring within the 10 year period).
The numbers simply do not add up - line up 10 year costs with 10 year revenues, and you get red ink. Lots of it. Public option will only make it worse.
We are also staring at some epidemics, such as diabetes, that will break the bank of either the current insurance or proposed government strategies.
| 227 |
Jaerik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:13:47pm |
re: #193 Charles
Americans for Prosperity and Christopher Monckton are not honest players in this game. Their only purpose in Copenhagen is to spread lies and confusion. While I don't agree with these kinds of tactics, I have a lot of sympathy for the incredible frustration they feel over seeing liars and industry shills and conspiracy-promoting wackos like Monckton spouting nonsense -- the only purpose of which is to confuse and mislead people about an important issue.
No, trust me, I got tons of sympathy for these folks because I feel their frustration. I really do. I'd like nothing more than to rush the deniers conference and beat them with a third grade science textbook.
What I'm arguing is that a primary tactic of the deniers is to equate their uninformed, mob-like, anti-science claims with the scientists and folks on the other side. They can't argue with the science, so they argue that scientists themselves are no better or informed than they are -- shills to special interests with nefarious internally conflicting claims. It's why they can latch on to a single email with the word "trick" and posit the ridiculous notion that it somehow proves the entire climate change argument is as ultimately hollow and devoid of meaningful content as their own side.
That's why I think crashing their poorly-attended event is potentially not the greatest strategy. This little folding-chair echo-chamber probably wouldn't have been a blip on the radar of anyone in Copenhagen if it hadn't turned into a story by folks crashing it. To quote Admiral Ackbar: "IT'S A TRAAAP!"
Or maybe I'm just over-thinking the whole thing, and beating them with that third grade science textbook is the right way to go.
| 228 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:14:03pm |
re: #223 Dark_Falcon
That how it would start. But there not much more to say about this one. Your arguments are good, but they can't address my severe distrust of government nor my partisan distrust of Liberal Democrats. My opposition is partly practical but also ideological.
Fair enough.
| 229 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:14:38pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
Morality Index Score:
Americans for Prosperity - Founder with $30,000,000 in fines; $376,000,000 in civil judgements; 2 dead teenagers.
Young Environmentalists - 1 Press Conference Disruption; Monckton's nose hair view.
Excellent point!
Not to mention the incredible volume of disinformation they've pumped into the debate over important issues that affect billions of people, and generations to come.
| 230 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:14:40pm |
re: #216 Ericus58
You mean the 787? Sounds bad ass. Heard about it today on the magic radio waves.
| 231 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:14:50pm |
re: #193 Charles
I'm not defending this, and I don't think these are the right tactics to use, but I disagree strongly that this is just like the town hall meeting disruptions.
I only meant that in the most basic sense. In both cases we have parties disrupting their opponents' attempt to gather peaceably. I'm not sure either case is illegal, but neither is civil. I'm not sure what would be a more appropriate analogy. Code Pink interrupting a Hillary Clinton fundraiser? I dunno.
I understand that the town-halls were an attempt at civil discourse while this was meant to push denier propaganda, but at the core they're both meetings that were crashed by zealous opponents. That's all I'm getting at.
And I strongly believe that it does nothing to help forward awareness of AWG. I'm pretty sure Monckton was preaching to his choir, anyway.
| 232 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:15:00pm |
re: #221 Charles
Americans for Prosperity is the classic "astroturf" group, pretending to be grassroots while actually promoting the interests of Exxon-Mobil and R. J. Reynolds.
A grassloot organization perhaps?
| 233 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:15:23pm |
Copenhagen climate summit: 1,200 limos, 140 private planes and caviar wedgesCopenhagen is preparing for the climate change summit that will produce as much carbon dioxide as a town the size of Middlesbrough.
On a normal day, Majken Friss Jorgensen, managing director of Copenhagen's biggest limousine company, says her firm has twelve vehicles on the road. During the "summit to save the world", which opens here tomorrow, she will have 200.
"We thought they were not going to have many cars, due to it being a climate convention," she says. "But it seems that somebody last week looked at the weather report."
Ms Jorgensen reckons that between her and her rivals the total number of limos in Copenhagen next week has already broken the 1,200 barrier. The French alone rang up on Thursday and ordered another 42. "We haven't got enough limos in the country to fulfil the demand," she says. "We're having to drive them in hundreds of miles from Germany and Sweden."
And the total number of electric cars or hybrids among that number? "Five," says Ms Jorgensen. "The government has some alternative fuel cars but the rest will be petrol or diesel. We don't have any hybrids in Denmark, unfortunately, due to the extreme taxes on those cars. It makes no sense at all, but it's very Danish."
Green Fail.
| 234 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:15:26pm |
re: #221 Charles
Americans for Prosperity is the classic "astroturf" group, pretending to be grassroots while actually promoting the interests of Exxon-Mobil and R. J. Reynolds.
I just learned about Koch. Rather creepy bunch they have there. It's odd how people tend to falsely associate with these groups. That is seeing the working class Tea Party people joining up with a group that is not only economically outside of their class but outside of their own social class.
| 235 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:15:36pm |
re: #222 recusancy
A larger pool of people might not necessarily bend the cost curve because as more people realize they have access to care, they will use (and abuse) it. That will increase pressure on a limited resource - the limited number of doctors and medical practitioners. Those numbers aren't going to vastly increase given the time we're talking about. That means that: 1) time spent per patient will drop; 2) procedures will necessarily be limited because of greater demand; and 3) the higher demand and limited supply will increase costs.
| 236 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:16:15pm |
And which technical details?
I rather see nuclear-scientists and excellent architects deciding the design of a nuclear- powerplant than the public.
Yes, I got that. The Plato's republic kind of thing. You know I have experience of that as well. A system where you allow technocrats to decide everything based on what the scientist say without political oversight by democratic bodies. It didn't work out so good. Estland which did that (although not quite voluntarily) fell considerably behind Finland in 50 years. Plus its environment was damaged severely. And it turned out if you let excellent architects loose they build the crappiest buildings you can imagine.
| 237 |
CyanSnowHawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:17:53pm |
re: #219 RogueOne
There were quite a few of them actually. I remember having to do the removal and I didn't buy anymore CD's. I went straight to digital but then I went through a massive hassle when yahoo music sold to Rhapsody. Now I don't do DRM in any fashion. They can kiss my ass. ;)
I still buy CDs from time to time, and rip them to my HD as soon as I get home. I also really like my Kindle. Had it for a couple months and have read about a dozen books on it already, so I'm not overly concerned about the DRM issues.
| 238 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:18:02pm |
re: #235 lawhawk
A larger pool of people might not necessarily bend the cost curve because as more people realize they have access to care, they will use (and abuse) it. That will increase pressure on a limited resource - the limited number of doctors and medical practitioners. Those numbers aren't going to vastly increase given the time we're talking about. That means that: 1) time spent per patient will drop; 2) procedures will necessarily be limited because of greater demand; and 3) the higher demand and limited supply will increase costs.
You are totally not taking into account the number of people who use the ER as the doctor's office. ER resources will become more available as people have access to actual care instead of just using the ER.
It does sound like you would rather live with a broken system because there might be some slight disconfort as we change to a less-broken system. Which is sort of like saying we should never fix bridges or freeways because there will be road closures.
| 239 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:18:10pm |
re: #233 Racer X
And this being Scandinavia, even the prostitutes are doing their bit for the planet. Outraged by a council postcard urging delegates to "be sustainable, don't buy sex," the local sex workers' union – they have unions here – has announced that all its 1,400 members will give free intercourse to anyone with a climate conference delegate's pass. The term "carbon dating" just took on an entirely new meaning.
Oh man!
Is it hot in here?
| 240 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:18:51pm |
re: #235 lawhawk
A larger pool of people might not necessarily bend the cost curve because as more people realize they have access to care, they will use (and abuse) it. That will increase pressure on a limited resource - the limited number of doctors and medical practitioners. Those numbers aren't going to vastly increase given the time we're talking about. That means that: 1) time spent per patient will drop; 2) procedures will necessarily be limited because of greater demand; and 3) the higher demand and limited supply will increase costs.
That's why there would be limits just like there are on private insurance. But I guess this comes down to ideaology and how you believe things will progress after implementation and whether you trust in the government. I trust but verify. I assume most on the right just plain don't trust.
| 241 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:19:10pm |
| 242 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:20:51pm |
re: #223 Dark_Falcon
That how it would start. But there not much more to say about this one. Your arguments are good, but they can't address my severe distrust of government nor my partisan distrust of Liberal Democrats. My opposition is partly practical but also ideological.
Respectful, honest response. Thanks, DF.
How are you tonight?
| 243 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:21:07pm |
David H. Koch Theater at Lincoln Center, Manhattan
Same guy.
The American Museum of Natural History held its 16th annual Corporate Dinner last Tuesday night and honored David Koch, Executive Vice President of Koch Industries. The evening brought out some of the city’s most distinguished business leaders and philanthropists.
[Link: www.newyorksocialdiary.com...]
| 244 |
gegenkritik Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:21:58pm |
re: #236 kittysaidwoof
I was talking about technical things like the design of nuclear power plants (which I see rather being decided over by experts), not sociopolitical issues.
| 245 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:22:21pm |
re: #239 Racer X
And this being Scandinavia, even the prostitutes are doing their bit for the planet. Outraged by a council postcard urging delegates to "be sustainable, don't buy sex," the local sex workers' union – they have unions here – has announced that all its 1,400 members will give free intercourse to anyone with a climate conference delegate's pass. The term "carbon dating" just took on an entirely new meaning.
there is something ironic here but I just can't put my finger on it...
| 246 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:24:03pm |
re: #238 WindUpBird
You are totally not taking into account the number of people who use the ER as the doctor's office. ER resources will become more available as people have access to actual care instead of just using the ER.
It does sound like you would rather live with a broken system because there might be some slight disconfort as we change to a less-broken system. Which is sort of like saying we should never fix bridges or freeways because there will be road closures.
And again, I will point out, that there is a way to provide the indigent and uninsured with clinic care as well as hospital care, using existing resources and programs, and allowing each state to be in control of its own program.
Good grief, if Louisiana can do it, any state ought to be able to do it.
| 247 |
Kewalo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:24:29pm |
re: #161 kittysaidwoof
Just out of curiosity...don't you bother to check on the websites and authors of the "facts?" Monckton has a degree in journalism, he is not a scientist. If you get info from places like American Thinker...it's a political site. Why would you just believe anything they post? I just don't get that.
There are just tons of real scientists that have dumbed down the science behind their theory of AGW so we non-scientists can understand it. They would like the public to understand the science. And as far as I know every science mag like Scientific American has printed articles on this. I'm retired so I could spend lots of time doing some research, but if you are a busy person you can still take the time to read the valid mags and get some real facts.
| 248 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:24:29pm |
This guy is bank rolling a lot of anti-AGW groups and against the health care reform bills.
| 249 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:24:35pm |
re: #202 Charles
The Imogen Heap album?
Beastie Boys! I think. I remember an album that had a rootkit I bought, and one that just had pain in the ass copy protection.
| 250 |
RogueOne Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:25:05pm |
re: #237 CyanSnowHawk
Ever since the rootkit issue I've still have "Autoplay" turned off on all my pc's plus I use AnyDVD. It gives me a chance to see wtf the cd/dvd is going to do before it just happens.
| 251 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:25:56pm |
re: #245 brookly red
And this being Scandinavia, even the prostitutes are doing their bit for the planet. Outraged by a council postcard urging delegates to "be sustainable, don't buy sex," the local sex workers' union – they have unions here – has announced that all its 1,400 members will give free intercourse to anyone with a climate conference delegate's pass. The term "carbon dating" just took on an entirely new meaning.
there is something ironic here but I just can't put my finger on it...
What? UN delegates don't have groupies? I guess this isn't as trendy as I thought. Maybe they could borrow some from the media contingent.
| 252 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:26:35pm |
re: #240 recusancy
That's why there would be limits just like there are on private insurance. But I guess this comes down to ideaology and how you believe things will progress after implementation and whether you trust in the government. I trust but verify. I assume most on the right just plain don't trust.
I don't and why should I?...the feds have failed to deliver over and over again, and this admin will be no different...take the stimulus for example, the blockbuster, crisis fed, deficit growing, spend our way out of debt godzilla that has not produced jobs or fueled the economy...why would massive govt intrusion into health care be any different?...because you hope it will?
| 253 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:27:12pm |
re: #244 gegenkritik
I was talking about technical things like the design of nuclear power plants (which I see rather being decided over by experts), not sociopolitical issues.
On that I can say too that I prefer democratic body oversight. The only catastrophic nuclear plant failure ever was a design decided on by tehcnocrats based on scientists recommendations. I don't think that design would have passed in a democracy. The safety track record of democratically decided upon designs and non-democratic is most decidedly on the side of democratically decided.
| 254 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:27:29pm |
re: #250 RogueOne
Ever since the rootkit issue I've still have "Autoplay" turned off on all my pc's plus I use AnyDVD. It gives me a chance to see wtf the cd/dvd is going to do before it just happens.
If you're a gamer, you've hated Autoplay as long as there's been windows. 8-)
| 255 |
RogueOne Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:27:31pm |
re: #250 RogueOne
Ever since the rootkit issue I've still have "Autoplay" turned off on all my pc's plus I use AnyDVD. It gives me a chance to see wtf the cd/dvd is going to do before it just happens.
"I've still have"? I don't think that's Cato approved use of the English language.
| 256 |
Digital Display Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:27:42pm |
re: #245 brookly red
And this being Scandinavia, even the prostitutes are doing their bit for the planet. Outraged by a council postcard urging delegates to "be sustainable, don't buy sex," the local sex workers' union – they have unions here – has announced that all its 1,400 members will give free intercourse to anyone with a climate conference delegate's pass. The term "carbon dating" just took on an entirely new meaning.
there is something ironic here but I just can't put my finger on it...
Holding back..Holding back...
You mean Tiger gets free sex workers coupons also?
That's not fair..
Holding back..
*wink*
| 257 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:27:44pm |
re: #242 austin_blue
Respectful, honest response. Thanks, DF.
How are you tonight?
Tired. I had to work at cleaning the hedges at work to prepare them for a set of Christmas lights. It was about 45 minutes work outside in the cold it was thoroughly wearying. Sales are good though, and I'm doing better this month than I have in a long time.
| 258 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:28:40pm |
In glitzy shadows, a health reform foe lurks
By Lee Fang
December 6, 2009
SNIP
David Koch, an oil and gas billionaire who is the ninth-richest person in the United States, according to Forbes magazine, was simultaneously responsible for a $100 million refurbished opera house and a protest that featured signs comparing health reform to the Holocaust. The two sides to Koch’s activism aren’t unique - they harken to a long tradition of conservative tycoons who were great philanthropists with one hand and ruthless powerbrokers with the other. But Koch’s hidden presence in the health care debate illustrates the extent to which the Old Right is creating - and then hiding behind - the grassroots fervor of middle-class opponents of health reform.
Across the New York social circuit, Koch is hailed for his donations to reputable causes, including the Metropolitan Museum of Art. But for years, Koch has also been funneling tens of millions of dollars to more subterranean efforts that reflect his conservative politics. His flagship group, Americans for Prosperity, sponsored Bachmann’s rally against health care reform. Although the Lincoln Center’s State Theater is now called the David H. Koch Theater, none of Koch’s right-wing fronts bear his name.
Americans for Prosperity is leading the way in channeling recession-era distress into anger at President Obama. This “grassroots’’ group has orchestrated many of the tea party protests, as well as steering activists into disrupting town hall meetings of Democratic members of Congress. Americans for Prosperity’s tactics are not new. Just as Koch inherited his oil business from his father, Americans for Prosperity borrows from the ultra-right group also founded in part by his dad, the John Birch Society.
SNIP
| 259 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:29:02pm |
re: #256 HoosierHoops
Holding back..Holding back...
You mean Tiger gets free sex workers coupons also?
That's not fair..
Holding back..
*wink*
Sorry, Hoops... SMACK!
| 260 |
Ericus58 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:29:31pm |
re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Yes indeed... it's not your father's way of aircraft engineering and manufacturing/production.
My field is in Quality with time in the Operations (manufacturing) side also.
The business model is not-so user friendly, and it's a much more complex system. I've worked the 747-400 at launch, the Next Gen 737's and was on the 777 before having our first airframe in the factory. The 777 was the dream program imho - and still a great plane.
I know that pilots who flew the 757 always loved it though - a bit of a sports car with wings due to the power/weight and had great handling characteristics.
| 261 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:30:14pm |
re: #257 Dark_Falcon
Sales are good though, and I'm doing better this month than I have in a long time.
That's good to hear. I've been talking to my friends in the violin world and they all pretty much indicate things are starting to look up.
| 262 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:30:39pm |
re: #257 Dark_Falcon
Tired. I had to work at cleaning the hedges at work to prepare them for a set of Christmas lights. It was about 45 minutes work outside in the cold it was thoroughly wearying. Sales are good though, and I'm doing better this month than I have in a long time.
Aren't you up in Chicago? How much snow did you get in the last two days?
| 263 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:31:18pm |
re: #257 Dark_Falcon
Tired. I had to work at cleaning the hedges at work to prepare them for a set of Christmas lights. It was about 45 minutes work outside in the cold it was thoroughly wearying. Sales are good though, and I'm doing better this month than I have in a long time.
| 264 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:31:34pm |
re: #251 Shiplord Kirel
What? UN delegates don't have groupies? I guess this isn't as trendy as I thought. Maybe they could borrow some from the media contingent.
I can't but help feeling that this union support isn't some well funded effort to influence the decision making process.
| 265 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:31:38pm |
re: #258 Gus 802
Might as well continue that...
Conceived by Robert Welch and a small group of conservative industrialists, including Fred Koch - David’s father and the namesake of the family firm of Koch Industries - the John Birch Society cloaked its pro-business, anti-civil rights agenda in the rhetoric of the Cold War.
The Birch Society battled communism by labeling President Kennedy a traitor who had to be impeached, denounced taxes as a creeping red menace, and attacked the forces of racial integration as being directed by the Kremlin.
Cushioned with large donations from Koch and others, the Birch Society helped propel Barry Goldwater to the Republican nomination in 1964 and helped Republicans make gains in the congressional midterms of 1966.
Like Americans for Prosperity, the John Birch Society rarely acknowledged its funding from the very rich. Instead, it depicted itself as a citizens group merely interested in American ideals of freedom. Rather than argue the policy nuances of entitlement programs or new regulations, the Birch Society marshaled opposition by depicting progressive reform as capitulation to the Soviet Union. In that polarized environment, the interests of millionaires suddenly became aligned with patriotic families who wanted to do their part against the communist threat.
Shortly after the Birch Society faded, David Koch founded Americans for Prosperity in 1984 (then known as Citizens for a Sound Economy). Americans for Prosperity still portrays itself as a defender of freedom and the average Joe. On the Americans for Prosperity website, financial regulations, health reform, net neutrality, and the estate tax are all assailed as forms of socialism.
While David Koch is celebrated as a patron of New York opera, his Americans for Prosperity donations have gone largely unsung. With his millions, he will not only have saved this year’s performance of the “Nutcracker,’’ but also contributed greatly to the obstruction of universal health care, the denial of climate change, and the derailment of much of President Obama’s domestic agenda.
His dad would be pleased.
| 266 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:32:49pm |
re: #238 WindUpBird
You are totally not taking into account the number of people who use the ER as the doctor's office. ER resources will become more available as people have access to actual care instead of just using the ER.
It does sound like you would rather live with a broken system because there might be some slight disconfort as we change to a less-broken system. Which is sort of like saying we should never fix bridges or freeways because there will be road closures.
Actually, I am talking about that, because even with the Democrats' proposals, millions would still be uninsured. They've admitted that they'd increase the number covered from 85% to 94% (or thereabouts - depends on which plan we're talking about). Uninsured would still be draining the system - and ERs would still be hit hard. But where are all the primary care physicians coming from that will deal with the patients getting "actual care".
I have serious problems with the existing problem, but this is the wrong way to do it at the wrong time and in the worst possible manner.
Fraud in Medicare/Medicaid is in the tens of billions annually. Reduce the fraud and convert the savings into improved care. Reduce the defensive medical procedures - the fear of lawsuits, and you can reduce costs.
Penny wise but pound foolish policies increase costs - like for certain conditions including diabetes and kidney disease.
There are cost savings to be had if you look for them.
Taxing people in the form of penalties imposed by the IRS if you don't have insurance is not the right way to go about things, particularly for the millions who are in good health and don't need comprehensive insurance but would take a catastrophic insurance policy if offered.
Better yet, allow insurance policies that have been approved by one state to be portable and usable in any state. So, if a basic policy in AZ is approved, someone in NY can buy that policy and save in the process.
| 267 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:33:13pm |
re: #260 Ericus58
I know that pilots who flew the 757 always loved it though - a bit of a sports car with wings due to the power/weight and had great handling characteristics.
I always enjoyed flying in 757s when I flew domestically, as the business class was pretty sizeable and I always got upgraded (back in my "Prem Exec" status days of being an IT consultant). For overseas flights, I was almost always in a 767, though I did get to fly first class in a 747-400 once returning from Hong Kong...well worth the 30,000 miles it cost me to upgrade.
| 268 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:33:43pm |
re: #262 austin_blue
Aren't you up in Chicago? How much snow did you get in the last two days?
I figure about 4-6 inches. It's not been too bad because the snow has come down at a slow enough pace for the plows and salt trucks to keep ahead of it.
| 269 |
CyanSnowHawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:33:50pm |
re: #238 WindUpBird
You are totally not taking into account the number of people who use the ER as the doctor's office. ER resources will become more available as people have access to actual care instead of just using the ER.
It does sound like you would rather live with a broken system because there might be some slight disconfort as we change to a less-broken system. Which is sort of like saying we should never fix bridges or freeways because there will be road closures.
How exactly is the system broken? In Engineering, the first thing you do to a problem is characterize it. While there are anecdotes about the current health care systems problems being flung around by lobbyists and the media, this has not been done, not even a good first look has really taken place. Now Congress, that hotbed of special interests, is coming along and saying that they have the fix for it? Not bloody likely. From the look of things now, some very specific things will be changed, while other things will be completely ignored.
I would have been greatly impressed had Obama come into office and quickly established a commission to determine the nature of the problem, not just demanded that Congress come up with an immediate solution in the hope that it would make everything better for his term in office. The complexity of the system is such that it might take years to truly understand the problems and come up with solutions that don't risk making it worse.
| 270 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:34:24pm |
Just out of curiosity, has anyone one else seen this?
US passes bill on media 'terrorists'
"The US House of Representatives has overwhelmingly passed legislation labeling certain Middle East media outlets, including the Hizbullah-run Al-Manar, terrorist entities"
Cair screaming censorship in...
| 271 |
Ericus58 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:34:27pm |
Be well all, I must be off to enjoy a nice dinner prepared by my wife for my birthday.
Thanks for another thread of discussions to enjoy and learn.
| 272 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:34:38pm |
| 273 |
badger1 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:34:44pm |
The link indicates that AFP has received large funding from the Koch family. It does not say that it is an "industry front group".
Lets avoid smears shall we?
| 274 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:34:54pm |
re: #240 recusancy
Having worked for a state legislature and worked with state and local taxes for the better part of the last 10 years, it's all too easy to see that revenue projections never match the costs. Spending all too frequently outstrips revenues - and problems get worse in recessions.
The current proposals are a built in deficit creator.
| 276 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:36:55pm |
re: #266 lawhawk
Fraud in Medicare/Medicaid is in the tens of billions annually. Reduce the fraud and convert the savings into improved care. Reduce the defensive medical procedures - the fear of lawsuits, and you can reduce costs.
That would only be savings, if I remember correctly, of like 14 billion over ten years. A drop in the (huge) bucket. It should probably be done but it's a small fix.
Better yet, allow insurance policies that have been approved by one state to be portable and usable in any state. So, if a basic policy in AZ is approved, someone in NY can buy that policy and save in the process.
That might cause the problem that we have with credit card companies. They would all move to one state (DE) and buy up the legislature so they can do whatever they want.
| 277 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:37:11pm |
re: #270 Bubblehead II
Just out of curiosity, has anyone one else seen this?
US passes bill on media 'terrorists'
"The US House of Representatives has overwhelmingly passed legislation labeling certain Middle East media outlets, including the Hizbullah-run Al-Manar, terrorist entities"
Cair screaming censorship in...
Good. The House did the right thing. Al-Manhar is a terrorist propaganda mill. No American should have any dealings with it.
| 278 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:37:47pm |
re: #270 Bubblehead II
Just out of curiosity, has anyone one else seen this?
US passes bill on media 'terrorists'
"The US House of Representatives has overwhelmingly passed legislation labeling certain Middle East media outlets, including the Hizbullah-run Al-Manar, terrorist entities"
Cair screaming censorship in...
At first glance that is good, but it opens the door to do it here also.
| 279 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:38:37pm |
re: #275 Gus 802
Thanks, I needed the laugh.
Badger1 might have a point. I'm seeing a difference between simple profit-oriented industry lobbies and a number of old-money industrialists, like Scaife and the Koches, who push these front groups for ideological reasons. (Don't know which I like less.)
| 280 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:39:27pm |
re: #268 Dark_Falcon
I figure about 4-6 inches. It's not been too bad because the snow has come down at a slow enough pace for the plows and salt trucks to keep ahead of it.
I've been in touch with some old friends up in the UP. Houghton has gotten almost 60 inches since the 1st of the month. Hello, El Nino!
Cold here today, barely made 40. Another freeze tonight. But after this summer, I'm not bitching about the cold ever again.
| 281 |
Digital Display Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:39:32pm |
re: #268 Dark_Falcon
I figure about 4-6 inches. It's not been too bad because the snow has come down at a slow enough pace for the plows and salt trucks to keep ahead of it.
So the next time me and the boys drive up your way to see a concert we'll have to get together...I love weekends in Chicago.
| 282 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:40:11pm |
| 283 |
Mark Pennington Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:40:29pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
Hot Air put up a new race baiting thread about the outrage of the NYT recommendations for holiday gifts for minorities.
Management sez...
Stay on topic, please.Allahpundit on December 9, 2009 at 7:29 PM
That won't last a week and they'll be right back at it.
| 284 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:41:40pm |
re: #280 austin_blue
I've been in touch with some old friends up in the UP. Houghton has gotten almost 60 inches since the 1st of the month. Hello, El Nino!
Cold here today, barely made 40. Another freeze tonight. But after this summer, I'm not bitching about the cold ever again.
Does it ever snow down there?
| 285 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:43:16pm |
re: #265 Gus 802
It's really, really disturbing to see how much influence the John Birch Society has regained on the right, after being pretty much pushed out of the rational conservative movement. And this is another huge reason why I refuse to be associated with the right wing any more, and made such a public break.
The right, and the Republican Party, has become a grey-haired atavistic movement of racists, bigots and religious fanatics who've learned to conceal their sick hatreds and manipulate the masses, with public relations campaigns that cynically play on uneducated people's fears.
Does that mean I'm a Democrat? No, not really. They have their problems too. But I'm not going to be voting for any Republican, until I see a sincere effort to push these Birchers and racists out of the party.
I'm not holding my breath for that.
| 286 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:43:20pm |
re: #278 brookly red
Understood. But do you really want an American Version of Al Jezera being allowed to (lawfully) broadcast their hate message here in the States?
| 287 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:43:23pm |
re: #281 HoosierHoops
So the next time me and the boys drive up your way to see a concert we'll have to get together...I love weekends in Chicago.
tell me about it...I used to live 150mi away...now I'm on another planet...so much to do up there...waaa!
| 288 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:43:29pm |
re: #279 Decatur Deb
Badger1 might have a point. I'm seeing a difference between simple profit-oriented industry lobbies and a number of old-money industrialists, like Scaife and the Koches, who push these front groups for ideological reasons. (Don't know which I like less.)
Koch Industries Lobbying:
[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]
2008
Total Lobbying Expenditures: $20,023,000
Subtotal for Parent Koch Industries: $15,130,000
Subtotal for Subsidiary Flint Hills Resources: $2,800,000
Subtotal for Subsidiary Georgia-Pacific LLC: $1,773,000
Subtotal for Subsidiary INVISTA: $280,000
Subtotal for Subsidiary Koch Mineral Services : $40,000
| 289 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:44:13pm |
re: #272 austin_blue
Maybe they're here?
[Video]
Call me a freakin' old codger but, that sounds like a bunch of cats being stuck in a blender.
| 290 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:44:34pm |
re: #286 Bubblehead II
Understood. But do you really want an American Version of Al Jezera being allowed to (lawfully) broadcast their hate message here in the States?
what's to stop it?...broadcasting hate is perfectly legal
| 291 |
lawhawk Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:45:17pm |
re: #276 recusancy
The fraud is estimated at tens of billions annually. 10% of the Medicaid budget in fact.
In the current year, AG Holder arrested 145 people in a $371 million fraud ring - based on just two months of claims.
The fraud is far more widespread than you think, and it infuses all corners of the health care delivery system.
| 292 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:46:14pm |
re: #286 Bubblehead II
Understood. But do you really want an American Version of Al Jezera being allowed to (lawfully) broadcast their hate message here in the States?
No, but I can see how this can turn bigtime ugly with a quickness.
| 293 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:47:14pm |
re: #292 brookly red
No, but I can see how this can turn bigtime ugly with a quickness.
yup...the mighty First...victim of it's own rightousness
| 294 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:02pm |
re: #288 Gus 802
This whole area deserves a look. Some of it surfaced last year with the attempts to track teaparty support through Freedomworks. That was confused by the Paulian's earlier strain of teapartying.
| 295 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:10pm |
re: #291 lawhawk
The fraud is estimated at tens of billions annually. 10% of the Medicaid budget in fact.
In the current year, AG Holder arrested 145 people in a $371 million fraud ring - based on just two months of claims.
The fraud is far more widespread than you think, and it infuses all corners of the health care delivery system.
Shoot.. I misread 'fraud' for 'tort reform'. I think I need to air my brain out. A little bit of partisan dyslexia or something.
I completely agree with that.
| 296 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:11pm |
re: #284 Dark_Falcon
Does it ever snow down there?
More than 4"? Maybe six or seven times in the records. The most Austin has ever gotten is just under seven inches at a shot. I've been here twenty years and I've seen 2.5". Once. Other than than, dustings, and quickly gone.
Oddly, both San Antonio and Corpus get larger individual snowfalls than Austin. It's the collisions of fronts and moisture. We got nothing but flurries last week. Inland areas from Victoria in the south to Woodville in the north (including the west side of Houston, got up to four inches.
Weird, innit?
| 297 |
kittysaidwoof Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:13pm |
re: #247 Kewalo
Just out of curiosity...don't you bother to check on the websites and authors of the "facts?" Monckton has a degree in journalism, he is not a scientist. If you get info from places like American Thinker...it's a political site. Why would you just believe anything they post? I just don't get that.
I don't think I've ever read Moncton, I can only recall reading some criticism of him according to which he was supposed to be some sort of dunce or at least a very bad person. I can personally hardly have an opinion of his writing or whether he makes a compelling case or not before I've read him.
My principal problem is that I used to believe without doubt what I was taught at school and was written in various popular science magazines (the dumbed down version of science which I enjoy very much), but very little of the predictions made actually happened (which is good because we were supposed to live a version of Mad Max by now).
Then a few years ago I stumbled on American sites like this here, which were presenting the critique (there used to be very little of that here). Then one day I came to the conclusion that I should stick to what I can know and not try too hard to understand the science which I am not qualified to assess anyhow (and neither are the majority of the people on both sides of the debate). I also decided to stop worrying too much about impending doom for if it comes it comes and based on past experience most catastrophes are much more mundane than floods of biblical proportions. Given where I live, events in Georgia last year and Obama's habit of ditching allies, I am much more likely die in a war in the next ten years than in a flood or heatstroke.
The above doesn't mean that I don't believe that temperatures have risen since 1800s or that human can be a significant contributor to that rise (just look at the population explosion - they are talking about the significance of cow flatulence, but I wouldn't find it surprising if human flatulence had a part in it too).
| 298 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:52pm |
re: #293 albusteve
yup...the mighty First...victim of it's own rightousness
and it's not like some people are not already trying...
| 299 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:48:54pm |
re: #291 lawhawk
The fraud is estimated at tens of billions annually. 10% of the Medicaid budget in fact.
In the current year, AG Holder arrested 145 people in a $371 million fraud ring - based on just two months of claims.
The fraud is far more widespread than you think, and it infuses all corners of the health care delivery system.
Isn't there a proposal from Democrats to lower the age of Medicare eligibility to 55?
| 300 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:49:28pm |
re: #285 Charles
It's really, really disturbing to see how much influence the John Birch Society has regained on the right, after being pretty much pushed out of the rational conservative movement. And this is another huge reason why I refuse to be associated with the right wing any more, and made such a public break.
The right, and the Republican Party, has become a grey-haired atavistic movement of racists, bigots and religious fanatics who've learned to conceal their sick hatreds and manipulate the masses, with public relations campaigns that cynically play on uneducated people's fears.
Does that mean I'm a Democrat? No, not really. They have their problems too. But I'm not going to be voting for any Republican, until I see a sincere effort to push these Birchers and racists out of the party.
I'm not holding my breath for that.
That's the big one right there -- the bolded text.
No, doesn't mean I'm a Democrat either. I remember when I used to dig up background information on left causes I would find a deep well of big money backers who also use public relations and media manipulation to attain their goals.
The return of the John Birch Society is disturbing.
| 301 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:50:32pm |
re: #291 lawhawk
The fraud is estimated at tens of billions annually. 10% of the Medicaid budget in fact.
In the current year, AG Holder arrested 145 people in a $371 million fraud ring - based on just two months of claims.
The fraud is far more widespread than you think, and it infuses all corners of the health care delivery system.
and it is so much more likley when spending other peoples momey.
| 302 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:50:59pm |
re: #290 albusteve
Unfortunately, you are correct. We see it (thinly veiled) on the MSM daily. What I am talking about is the blatant anti-american/pro-violence rhetoric we see (via MEMRI) coming from the Mideast media.
If these stations are listed as terrorist supporting organizations, they can not (under this Legislation) have U.S. affiliated/based stations within the ConUs to rebroadcast their message. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Am I perhaps missing something?
| 303 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:00pm |
re: #296 austin_blue
More than 4"? Maybe six or seven times in the records. The most Austin has ever gotten is just under seven inches at a shot. I've been here twenty years and I've seen 2.5". Once. Other than than, dustings, and quickly gone.
Oddly, both San Antonio and Corpus get larger individual snowfalls than Austin. It's the collisions of fronts and moisture. We got nothing but flurries last week. Inland areas from Victoria in the south to Woodville in the north (including the west side of Houston, got up to four inches.
Weird, innit?
Count yourself as lucky. I've seen over 18" inches fall here in Chicago in a single day, and I had to help my dad dig our house out from that.
| 304 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:13pm |
re: #291 lawhawk
The fraud is estimated at tens of billions annually. 10% of the Medicaid budget in fact.
In the current year, AG Holder arrested 145 people in a $371 million fraud ring - based on just two months of claims.
The fraud is far more widespread than you think, and it infuses all corners of the health care delivery system.
Wow...how nice is it to have an AG who actually focuses on doing his job! The more I hear of Holder the more I like him.
| 305 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:22pm |
| 306 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:33pm |
I just can not keep up with you Lizards, today!
( I re-typed "cannot" based on Cato's "noone" kick!)
| 307 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:34pm |
re: #294 Decatur Deb
This whole area deserves a look. Some of it surfaced last year with the attempts to track teaparty support through Freedomworks. That was confused by the Paulian's earlier strain of teapartying.
It does. As you can see Koch Industries is not just one company and it includes Georgia Pacific and other. The Koch Foundation probably takes in money from other companies and could be seen as "bundlers." There are other individuals and companies that contribute to Americans for Prosperity.
| 308 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:51:42pm |
re: #298 brookly red
and it's not like some people are not already trying...
I hope it stands...but Nazis, Islamofascists, anti-abortion freaks and other extremists of all colors are gonna put a strain on it...how far is too far?, and the abusers are very slick
| 309 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:52:27pm |
re: #301 brookly red
and it is so much more likley when spending other peoples momey.
Private insurance is other peoples money. You pay into a pool and if you get sick they pay to help you (to an extent). If you don't they don't give you your money back. Wealth redistribution with a company taking a cut.
| 310 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:53:17pm |
re: #299 MandyManners
Isn't there a proposal from Democrats to lower the age of Medicare eligibility to 55?
/55? I thought Reid said 5...
| 311 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:54:11pm |
| 312 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:54:14pm |
re: #302 Bubblehead II
Unfortunately, you are correct. We see it (thinly veiled) on the MSM daily. What I am talking about is the blatant anti-american/pro-violence rhetoric we see (via MEMRI) coming from the Mideast media.
If these stations are listed as terrorist supporting organizations, they can not (under this Legislation) have U.S. affiliated/based stations within the ConUs to rebroadcast their message. I don't see this as a bad thing.
Am I perhaps missing something?
no, I don't think you are missing anything...a terrorist trickle down theory so to speak
| 313 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:55:56pm |
re: #304 darthstar
Wow...how nice is it to have an AG who actually focuses on doing his job! The more I hear of Holder the more I like him.
yeah, wow...what an awesome dood
| 314 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:56:17pm |
re: #285 Charles
It's really, really disturbing to see how much influence the John Birch Society has regained on the right, after being pretty much pushed out of the rational conservative movement. And this is another huge reason why I refuse to be associated with the right wing any more, and made such a public break.
The right, and the Republican Party, has become a grey-haired atavistic movement of racists, bigots and religious fanatics who've learned to conceal their sick hatreds and manipulate the masses, with public relations campaigns that cynically play on uneducated people's fears.
Does that mean I'm a Democrat? No, not really. They have their problems too. But I'm not going to be voting for any Republican, until I see a sincere effort to push these Birchers and racists out of the party.
I'm not holding my breath for that.
Come over to the Blue side, Charles... the Blue side! The side of the sky and friendly chirping birds and Chelsea...
Reject the Red side...the side of hellfire and Manchester United...
((I apologize in advance for this shameless reference to the English Premier League and personal passions associated therewith.))
| 315 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:56:18pm |
Michelle Malkin promotes "Fistgate" on Fox...
Michelle Malkin: Safe School Czar Kevin Jennings' Perverse Reading List for School Children
| 316 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:56:57pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
It does. As you can see Koch Industries is not just one company and it includes Georgia Pacific and other. The Koch Foundation probably takes in money from other companies and could be seen as "bundlers." There are other individuals and companies that contribute to Americans for Prosperity.
Going down this road demands real precision. One step to the left or right and you're out there chasing Templars and Illuminati.
| 317 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:57:04pm |
re: #308 albusteve
I hope it stands...but Nazis, Islamofascists, anti-abortion freaks and other extremists of all colors are gonna put a strain on it...how far is too far?, and the abusers are very slick
my fear is more from the left, why have a fairness doctrine when it is so much easier just to declare the opposition criminal, it is a stretch but not a long one.
| 318 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:57:52pm |
re: #316 Decatur Deb
Going down this road demands real precision. One step to the left or right and you're out there chasing Templars and Illuminati.
Professor Langdon, is that you?
///
| 319 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:58:12pm |
re: #299 MandyManners
Isn't there a proposal from Democrats to lower the age of Medicare eligibility to 55?
There sure is. I don't understand all the fuss about Demos wanting a public option.
Can they pass it? Oh dear oh dear.
It has been there all along. All they have to do is amend Medicare and ta da the public option is created!
| 320 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:58:21pm |
re: #316 Decatur Deb
Going down this road demands real precision. One step to the left or right and you're out there chasing Templars and Illuminati.
I know. I was kind of joking to myself about that when I was looking through the Museum of Natural History society news.
It's a grand conspiracy!
Not really. I know it's all about, money. Follow the money as they say.
| 321 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:58:36pm |
re: #314 austin_blue
Come over to the Blue side, Charles... the Blue side! The side of the sky and friendly chirping birds and Chelsea...
Reject the Red side...the side of hellfire and Manchester United...
((I apologize in advance for this shameless reference to the English Premier League and personal passions associated therewith.))
I thought you meant Chelsea Clinton at first. I was like, hu?
| 322 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:58:54pm |
re: #315 Killgore Trout
"Bathroom sex between schoolaged kids...Preschoolers and first graders."
I don't think I can watch it.
| 323 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:59:01pm |
re: #314 austin_blue
Come over to the Blue side, Charles... the Blue side! The side of the sky and friendly chirping birds and Chelsea...
Reject the Red side...the side of hellfire and Manchester United...
((I apologize in advance for this shameless reference to the English Premier League and personal passions associated therewith.))
one of those matchbook preachers?...where did you get your politheology degree?...Palin U?
| 324 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 6:59:36pm |
re: #309 recusancy
Private insurance is other peoples money. You pay into a pool and if you get sick they pay to help you (to an extent). If you don't they don't give you your money back. Wealth redistribution with a company taking a cut.
And, many large companies "self-insure" while hiring the insurance company to process the paperwork. Found that out, the hard way. If a company "self-insures" your COBRA insurance can not (notice the space?) be extended.
| 326 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:00:11pm |
re: #319 Blueheron
There sure is. I don't understand all the fuss about Demos wanting a public option.
Can they pass it? Oh dear oh dear.
It has been there all along. All they have to do is amend Medicare and ta da the public option is created!
btw it's broke.
| 327 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:00:24pm |
re: #303 Dark_Falcon
Count yourself as lucky. I've seen over 18" inches fall here in Chicago in a single day, and I had to help my dad dig our house out from that.
Hey, when I was up at KI Sawyer in the early 80's we had a steamer that dumped 42" in two and a half days. But then, we averaged 144" per year. The snow belt kinda sucked, but I learned how to snowshoe, cross-country ski, hunt on both, and drink stupid mounts of schnapps, Heileman's Dog Style, and Brandy Sours.
| 328 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:00:26pm |
re: #322 Killgore Trout
"Bathroom sex between schoolaged kids...Preschoolers and first graders."
I don't think I can watch it.
Nope, I couldn't make it. Almost half way through and I had to tap out.
| 329 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:00:49pm |
re: #317 brookly red
my fear is more from the left, why have a fairness doctrine when it is so much easier just to declare the opposition criminal, it is a stretch but not a long one.
uh oh...you said 'left'
| 330 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:01:20pm |
re: #319 Blueheron
There sure is. I don't understand all the fuss about Demos wanting a public option.
Can they pass it? Oh dear oh dear.
It has been there all along. All they have to do is amend Medicare and ta da the public option is created!
And you break the fucking bank known as the American people.
| 331 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:02:33pm |
re: #322 Killgore Trout
"Bathroom sex between schoolaged kids...Preschoolers and first graders."
I don't think I can watch it.
you need to go get some air...
| 332 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:02:39pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
Really, you have to put your sanity first!
You go MANY places, where I could not go.
Thanks!
Some swamps should be left unviewed, IMHO...
| 333 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:03:03pm |
re: #326 brookly red
btw it's broke.
Well what my dear does THAT have to do with anything?/
We are talking here about our politicians creating something for everybody ya know.
| 334 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:03:04pm |
re: #320 Gus 802
I know. I was kind of joking to myself about that when I was looking through the Museum of Natural History society news.
It's a grand conspiracy!
Not really. I know it's all about, money. Follow the money as they say.
The money part gets you to Exxon lusting for ANWAR. I think there is a level at which monied families do it as a class "hobby". That would show in passionate support of causes that don't relate to known holdings.
| 335 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:03:12pm |
re: #176 Sharmuta
Cato is a bunch of Birchers. Do you have a more credible source?
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
| 336 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:03:19pm |
| 337 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:04:27pm |
re: #336 brookly red
I work in advertising... I am going to hell anyway.
see you there bro...we'll hoist a few
| 338 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:04:50pm |
re: #330 MandyManners
And you break the fucking bank known as the American people.
No we simply print more of the stuff.
| 339 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:05:47pm |
re: #336 brookly red
I work in advertising... I am going to hell anyway.
Bill Hicks has some advice for you...
| 340 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:06:22pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
That sounds kinky :))
| 341 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:06:27pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
Kinky!
| 342 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:07:01pm |
re: #312 albusteve
no, I don't think you are missing anything...a terrorist trickle down theory so to speak
And one that this Legislation will hopefully stop. I was also glad to see this in the story as it puts to rest the rumor that this Administration is abandoning Israel.
"Also Tuesday, both chambers took another step closer to approving aid for Israel, as the funding was maintained in a compromise version of the foreign operations bill being considered by the two chambers and likely to move on to the president's desk shortly.
The bill, as expected, provides $2.22 billion in aid, which represents the total $2.775 billion slated for the year when combined with the $555 million passed earlier in the year."
| 343 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:08:01pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
Remember: "Green Balloons".
| 344 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:08:27pm |
re: #342 Bubblehead II
And one that this Legislation will hopefully stop. I was also glad to see this in the story as it puts to rest the rumor that this Administration is abandoning Israel.
"Also Tuesday, both chambers took another step closer to approving aid for Israel, as the funding was maintained in a compromise version of the foreign operations bill being considered by the two chambers and likely to move on to the president's desk shortly.
The bill, as expected, provides $2.22 billion in aid, which represents the total $2.775 billion slated for the year when combined with the $555 million passed earlier in the year."
Good. There are plenty of people against aid for Israel. I keep hoping they don't win out.
| 345 |
recusancy Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:08:52pm |
| 346 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:09:42pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
I should think Crisco would work better, but I really don't know
| 347 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:09:43pm |
| 348 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:09:56pm |
re: #322 Killgore Trout
"Bathroom sex between schoolaged kids...Preschoolers and first graders."
I don't think I can watch it.
You'll be happy to know that Malkin is being backed in her crusade by none other than Neo-Confederate Asshole Robert Stacy McCain. Here's a song for you Michelle:
| 349 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:10:04pm |
re: #338 Blueheron
No we simply print more of the stuff.
I have the perfect dream for a counterfeiting money: print fives and tens.
| 350 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:11:29pm |
re: #349 MandyManners
I have the perfect dream for a counterfeiting money: print fives and tens.
No If you are going to get all that nasty ink under your nails print twentys and hundreds :))
| 351 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:12:16pm |
re: #349 MandyManners
I have the perfect dream for a counterfeiting money: print fives and tens.
Print Fifteens...you'll use half as much paper.
| 352 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:12:32pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
Nope, I couldn't make it. Almost half way through and I had to tap out.
This is one of the most disgusting smears the right has come up with yet.
Michelle Malkin is now living near James Dobson's incredibly large compound, and that video was probably fed directly from Dobson's media center, like all of her recent appearances. The bizarre "fisting" accusations are coming straight from the bigoted religious right, and Malkin is their well paid puppet.
She tried to soak PJ Media for as much money as she could get, but now she's found a richer sugar daddy.
| 353 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:12:38pm |
re: #350 Blueheron
No If you are going to get all that nasty ink under your nails print twentys and hundreds :))
No. They are checked routinely at retail outlets.
And, do you think I give a hoot about getting my hands dirty?
| 354 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:12:46pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
Nope, I couldn't make it. Almost half way through and I had to tap out.
I watched the whole interview. What's the problem? I am very skeptical of the allegations but there was nothing about the interview itself that made it unbearable.
| 355 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:13:07pm |
| 356 |
ED 209 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:13:12pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
Learn that from Augustine?
//
| 357 |
abolitionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:13:50pm |
re: #220 CyanSnowHawk
Another list of infected CDs (much longer)
You will have to click on
[+/-] show/hide this post
with javascript enabled, to display the list.
| 358 |
Basho Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:14:07pm |
I wonder what noted climatologist Sarah Palin thinks of this? Should Obama resign?
| 359 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:15:50pm |
Hot Air still planning for the revolution:
"Dark-Star on December 8, 2009
while there are some in the military that will follow any order given, the majority are conservatives. So while we will be facing heavy weapons, we will have some of our own.
I suspect that many soldiers have already have plans for what they take and what they sabotage.
Slowburn on December 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM"
| 360 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:16:00pm |
re: #349 MandyManners
You would be surprised at the number of those that are in fact "printed". "We" (My place of employment) have seen an upsurge in those denominations as they are considered "safe" to pass. Especially if the cashier is busy.
| 361 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:16:10pm |
re: #335 Cato the Elder
I am not.
Occasionally I'll go to a Finnish sauna where my friends and I beat each other with birch twigs.
That is all.
LOL!
TMI...
| 362 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:16:18pm |
re: #358 Basho
I wonder what noted climatologist Sarah Palin thinks of this? Should Obama resign?
Who gives a flying fuck what she thinks?
The MFM are the ones propping her up, perhaps hoping to present her as the legitimate GOP spokeswoman.
Well, fuck that.
She's a damn has-been governor of Alaska.
| 363 |
Kewalo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:16:47pm |
re: #291 lawhawk
I sometimes wonder about all the fraud we hear about. A few years ago I went to a small neighborhood pharmacist. He would give us who paid cash a small discount and was charging medicade the price that they listed for the drug. They went into his pharmacy (closed it down for a few days) went through his books and threatened him with fraud. He had to charge the same price for all the drugs. Needless to say it totally freaked him out and ended those small discounts.
| 364 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:16:59pm |
re: #360 Bubblehead II
You would be surprised at the number of those that are in fact "printed". "We" (My place of employment) have seen an upsurge in those denominations as they are considered "safe" to pass. Especially if the cashier is busy.
Sounds as if some basci math skills are lacking in your area.
| 365 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:17:32pm |
re: #359 avanti
Hot Air still planning for the revolution:
"Dark-Star on December 8, 2009
while there are some in the military that will follow any order given, the majority are conservatives. So while we will be facing heavy weapons, we will have some of our own.
I suspect that many soldiers have already have plans for what they take and what they sabotage.Slowburn on December 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM"
Dude, that is *so* last thread.
They're batshit, though, no doubt.
| 366 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:18:56pm |
re: #359 avanti
Hot Air still planning for the revolution:
"Dark-Star on December 8, 2009
while there are some in the military that will follow any order given, the majority are conservatives. So while we will be facing heavy weapons, we will have some of our own.
I suspect that many soldiers have already have plans for what they take and what they sabotage.Slowburn on December 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM"
yawn
| 367 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:19:19pm |
re: #365 austin_blue
Dude, that is *so* last thread.
They're batshit, though, no doubt.
Sorry, looked like recent a more recent post then the others and shows the comments are not getting any more rational.
| 368 |
ryannon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:19:35pm |
re: #123 worknhard
I don't want Google's answer's. I want yours.
re: #123 worknhard
I don't want Google's answer's. I want yours.
The Sun God Solaris is more active in the summer, and since he's out so much, everything gets hotter. Then he gets tired and naps through the winter. Since he doesn't go out as much, it gets cooler.
As for the most efficient form of solar energy storage, there is none - other than praying to Solaris to turn his golden face upon the planet and illuminate it with the warmth of his benevolent force.
Dig?
| 369 |
McSpiff Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:19:39pm |
Teh Gays are trying to steal our children!1!!elventy!...along with KPMG,Pepsi and Eastmen-Kodak apparently
| 370 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:20:15pm |
re: #355 MandyManners
You're a fucking genius, son.
You two are crazy! They wre: #360 Bubblehead II
You would be surprised at the number of those that are in fact "printed". "We" (My place of employment) have seen an upsurge in those denominations as they are considered "safe" to pass. Especially if the cashier is busy.
Is that fifteens or what?
| 371 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:20:19pm |
re: #358 Basho
I wonder what noted climatologist Sarah Palin thinks of this? Should Obama resign?
You Betcha!TM
| 372 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:20:39pm |
re: #362 MandyManners
Who gives a flying fuck what she thinks?
The MFM are the ones propping her up, perhaps hoping to present her as the legitimate GOP spokeswoman.
Well, fuck that.
She's a damn has-been governor of Alaska.
Palin will be used against you with relentless determination if you are a conservative...kinda funny actually
| 373 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:22:39pm |
re: #364 MandyManners
Not really. Pass 10 fake $10.00 bills as well as 10 $5.00 bills in a 8 hr period between 3 Casinos. Repeat per each shift. It adds up.
| 374 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:22:39pm |
re: #332 Floral Giraffe
Really, you have to put your sanity first!
You go MANY places, where I could not go.
Thanks!
Some swamps should be left unviewed, IMHO...
Agreed. I push my limits sometimes but I usually know when to bail out.
| 375 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:22:54pm |
re: #341 austin_blue
Kinky!
Ya think so?
Once in a while I skip the sauna, rip a young birch out by the roots, and flagellate myself with the twigs preparatory to going off and dispatching evildoers.
[start at minute 7:45]
| 376 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:23:28pm |
re: #367 avanti
Sorry, looked like recent a more recent post then the others and shows the comments are not getting any more rational.
You're right to post that. But do remember that HA won't get any better. Once a website or organization becomes that hate-filled they do not recover.
| 377 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:23:29pm |
re: #366 albusteve
yawn
I guess the talk of a war between conservatives and the military/government is not a yawner to me.
| 378 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:23:44pm |
And now, get a load of this smear:
[Link: wizbangblog.com...]
It's almost unbelievable how deranged the right wing has gotten.
| 379 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:25:09pm |
re: #354 Spare O'Lake
There are just some images I don't need in my head. Kindergartners engaged in "bathroom sex" ranks pretty damn high on the list. The fact that the allegations almost certainly aren't true doesn't help things.
| 380 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:25:24pm |
Video: Environmentalists Disrupt Climate Deniers' Conference
Silly stunt that doesn't accomplish much. You have science on your side, you don't need to reduce your argument to this level.
The guy who grabbed the sign should have charges filed against him.
Christopher Monckton turns on the zombie eyes and looks rants like a maniac.
| 381 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:25:53pm |
re: #377 avanti
I guess the talk of a war between conservatives and the military/government is not a yawner to me.
it's the stuff of comic books...you need to be concerned?...stick to BOs budget issues...there is a real war for you
| 382 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:25:58pm |
re: #376 Dark_Falcon
You're right to post that. But do remember that HA won't get any better. Once a website or organization becomes that hate-filled they do not recover.
Yes, but we can hope that there are some adults that can rein in the crazies.
| 383 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:26:16pm |
Who's got a link for a live feed of Charles' interview with Alan Colmes?
| 384 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:26:41pm |
I was watching TV and came back here, because I wanted to see Cops, just to relax, and there was that sorry ex governor Ventura (boy I'm glad I left Minnesota many years ago) trotting out 9/11 conspiracy theories yet again. The man has either lost his brains, or more likely his sense of decency, and Trutv has really gone down the tubes.
Honestly, it makes me feel sick.
| 385 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:26:55pm |
re: #359 avanti
Hot Air still planning for the revolution:
"Dark-Star on December 8, 2009
while there are some in the military that will follow any order given, the majority are conservatives. So while we will be facing heavy weapons, we will have some of our own.
I suspect that many soldiers have already have plans for what they take and what they sabotage.Slowburn on December 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM"
I resent that someone using the handle 'dark star' can be such an asshole.
| 387 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:27:26pm |
re: #378 Charles
And now, get a load of this smear:
[Link: wizbangblog.com...]
It's almost unbelievable how deranged the right wing has gotten.
When all else fails, "it was just satire."
/
| 388 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:27:37pm |
re: #370 Blueheron
Is that fifteens or what?
Brown acid is bad. Very bad. Baaad. Verrry bad. Verrry baaad.
| 389 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:28:11pm |
re: #367 avanti
Sorry, looked like recent a more recent post then the others and shows the comments are not getting any more rational.
It's teh continuing crisis there, eh? It's all nuts all teh time!
(I updinged you by the way. How are you Avanti? I've seen this four door Stud around the hood lately. Powder blue. Funky truncated widows. I think it might be one of these:
Image: Studebaker_sedan_1952_Pacific_Coast_Dream_Machines_2009_John_Quilter_Photo-2009.JPG
Rare?
| 390 |
Blueheron Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:28:13pm |
re: #378 Charles
And now, get a load of this smear:
[Link: wizbangblog.com...]
It's almost unbelievable how deranged the right wing has gotten.
Errr if they did post a picture of an autistic person how can you know that from looking at a picture?
| 391 |
Kewalo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:29:24pm |
re: #297 kittysaidwoof
It's kind of funny. I very casually knew something about this issue, I'm not a scientist but kinda, sorta understood the issue. But I didn't want to get involved with having to try and make a decision about what we should do. As a matter of fact, I'm still not sure what should be done. I wish there was some way to keep the nasty politics out of it.
But after the emails came out I thought I should at least understand it a little. Was AGW really a hoax? I really didn't know. So I just started going around the web and was lucky enough to have someone turn me on to Real Climate and I just went from there. So, I have no doubt that the earth is getting warmer and it's humans that are a big cause of it. In the meantime I've gotten so I google every website and every author, and there are a lot of nutcases out there, but plenty of good scientists too.
But you sound like you don't believe in it and that's why you're taking some hits over the issue. And BTW it's methane that's in flatulence. LOL
| 392 |
darthstar Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:29:52pm |
re: #373 Bubblehead II
Not really. Pass 10 fake $10.00 bills as well as 10 $5.00 bills in a 8 hr period between 3 Casinos. Repeat per each shift. It adds up.
I wouldn't try to pass a fake $1 bill at a casino. Those cashiers are trained to look at every bill...you wouldn't get three feet from the cage if you tried.
| 393 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:30:01pm |
re: #372 albusteve
Palin will be used against you with relentless determination if you are a conservative...kinda funny actually
By whom? By the MFM and their bosses at the DNC and the auxilary leagues of both?
| 394 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:30:40pm |
re: #373 Bubblehead II
Not really. Pass 10 fake $10.00 bills as well as 10 $5.00 bills in a 8 hr period between 3 Casinos. Repeat per each shift. It adds up.
MAFFS? DA MAFFS?
*runs away screeching*
| 395 |
Big Steve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:31:41pm |
Late to this thread but I looked at the clip three times...is it just me or does it looked faked. What I mean is could this be a con job to make the deniers look attacked. The reason I say this is it appears that nearly all of the audience is with the protesters. And the speaker for a while seems to smile to the side?
| 396 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:31:43pm |
re: #378 Charles
When you're talking about conservatives, you really can't expect any less of them anymore.
| 397 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:31:51pm |
re: #285 Charles
It's really, really disturbing to see how much influence the John Birch Society has regained on the right, after being pretty much pushed out of the rational conservative movement.
Maybe this chart helps explain their new cred and why their same old message now has so many new fans. 10-year Gold price trend The Birchers have been telling all their friends and neighbors and anyone who would listen that this would happen and its happening just like they said it would and if you would have only listened to that guy's advice 10 years ago you'd be far better off with the nest egg. So people think they can't be all crazy and start to listen.
And another possibility is that the victims of the recession need someone to blame and the Birchers are demagogues who know which stories to drop to whip up crowds using the hate they know is already there. They play on ignorance.
| 398 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:33:12pm |
re: #352 Charles
This is one of the most disgusting smears the right has come up with yet.
Michelle Malkin is now living near James Dobson's incredibly large compound, and that video was probably fed directly from Dobson's media center, like all of her recent appearances. The bizarre "fisting" accusations are coming straight from the bigoted religious right, and Malkin is their well paid puppet.
She tried to soak PJ Media for as much money as she could get, but now she's found a richer sugar daddy.
I can't believe I'm doing this, but there is some tiny nuggets of truth in the story, One book by a gay author does describe his sexual experiments with other very young gay kids, and fisting kits were handed out to gay high schoolers that wanted them at some sort of a off school gay gathering.. If and how the czar is connected is not clear to me.
| 399 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:33:15pm |
re: #375 Cato the Elder
Ya think so?
Once in a while I skip the sauna, rip a young birch out by the roots, and flagellate myself with the twigs preparatory to going off and dispatching evildoers.
[start at minute 7:45]
[Video]
Oh, dear. It looks like a Shiite frat party...
| 400 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:33:29pm |
re: #392 darthstar
I wouldn't try to pass a fake $1 bill at a casino. Those cashiers are trained to look at every bill...you wouldn't get three feet from the cage if you tried.
Correct, and they'd have you on tape. Even if you ran, they'd just call the Feds.
| 401 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:35:34pm |
re: #383 Killgore Trout
Who's got a link for a live feed of Charles' interview with Alan Colmes?
Here I think...
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 402 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:35:36pm |
re: #379 Killgore Trout
There are just some images I don't need in my head. Kindergartners engaged in "bathroom sex" ranks pretty damn high on the list. The fact that the allegations almost certainly aren't true doesn't help things.
I saw an excerpt from that very book - it does describe that.
| 403 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:35:45pm |
Hmm.
Ocean surface temperature trend..
So if we can crash the price of gold we can stop global warming. /
| 404 |
Mark Pennington Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:35:49pm |
re: #352 Charles
This is one of the most disgusting smears the right has come up with yet.
Michelle Malkin is now living near James Dobson's incredibly large compound, and that video was probably fed directly from Dobson's media center, like all of her recent appearances. The bizarre "fisting" accusations are coming straight from the bigoted religious right, and Malkin is their well paid puppet.
She tried to soak PJ Media for as much money as she could get, but now she's found a richer sugar daddy.
umm, wow.
Michelle "I proudly pose with someone holding an Obama Swastika symbol sign" Malkin is probably the most hateful of all the lunatic fringe. It's her job to lie to the dim faithful who would rather get all poutraged than learn the truth.
| 405 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:36:17pm |
| 406 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:36:44pm |
I have it on good authority from a survivalist relative of mine that the whole "buy gold" thing is a huge scam aimed at wannabe survivors.
If you want a negotiable type of currency for when TSHTF, you should buy silver dollars (last time I checked they were about 19 bucks a pop) for large transactions and rolls of Roosevelt (or other pre-base-metal) dimes for getting your tooth extracted by a dentist, buying a bag of barley, or negotiating with the crazee city dwellers who have kidnapped your no-longer-quite-virginal daughter for ransom.
Gold is for putzes and yutzes.
| 407 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:37:23pm |
re: #401 Gus 802
I'm listening now, some chick talking about her brother with heart problems. Maybe the interview was postponed.
| 409 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:37:29pm |
re: #389 austin_blue
It's teh continuing crisis there, eh? It's all nuts all teh time!
(I updinged you by the way. How are you Avanti? I've seen this four door Stud around the hood lately. Powder blue. Funky truncated widows. I think it might be one of these:
[Link: www.allcarcentral.com...]
Rare?
Just bought a failed project Avanti. The guy dropped 25K into taking it apart, and rebuilding the chassis, then lost interest for 10 years. I'll have to part it out at this point.
project.
| 410 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:37:37pm |
re: #364 MandyManners
BTW Mandy, here is how the scam works. A individual approaches a floor cashier who is targeted and over whelmed by "guests". He/She complains that the Bill Validators will not take their bill and wants a replacement. In order to speed up things, since it is such a small denomination bill He/She just exchanges the bill without looking closely at it and give the "Guest/Thief" a valid bill for a fake one. There is no lack of education
| 411 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:38:25pm |
re: #400 Dark_Falcon
Correct, and they'd have you on tape. Even if you ran, they'd just call the Feds.
Or they'd call the Mob.
| 412 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:38:44pm |
re: #403 Mich-again
Well arctic ice will soon be as rare as gold...
| 413 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:39:22pm |
re: #402 reine.de.tout
I haven't investigated the story because of all the bogus stories she's been promoting. I strongly suspect the story is not as Malkin is claiming. She's notorious for distorting things like this. I don't take it seriously.
| 414 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:39:23pm |
re: #390 Blueheron
Errr if they did post a picture of an autistic person how can you know that from looking at a picture?
They know very well it isn't true. It's deliberate dishonesty.
| 415 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:39:58pm |
re: #407 Killgore Trout
I'm listening now, some chick talking about her brother with heart problems. Maybe the interview was postponed.
That's on Friday...
re: #110 Charles
OT: I'm going to be interviewed on the Alan Colmes radio show this Friday at 7:30 pm Pacific.
That ought to make a few more heads explode.
| 416 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:41:05pm |
re: #415 Gus 802
Ah, I missed the part about Friday. Thankfully I can now stop listening.
| 417 |
Big Steve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:41:14pm |
re: #407 Killgore Trout
I'm listening now, some chick talking about her brother with heart problems. Maybe the interview was postponed.
he's on Friday I thought
| 418 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:41:30pm |
re: #416 Killgore Trout
Ah, I missed the part about Friday. Thankfully I can now stop listening.
OK
She's right IMO.
| 419 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:41:35pm |
re: #412 Rightwingconspirator
When it melts it may expose huge reserves. Regarding Nome's history..
In that year, gold was found in the beach sands for dozens of miles along the coast at Nome, which spurred the stampede to new heights.
| 420 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:41:42pm |
re: #415 Gus 802
That's Saturday Morning for me. I'll be out on my college-sanctioned do-gooding then. >_>
| 421 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:42:11pm |
re: #406 Cato the Elder
I have it on good authority from a survivalist relative of mine that the whole "buy gold" thing is a huge scam aimed at wannabe survivors.
Bullets. Buy bullets.
| 422 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:42:17pm |
re: #352 Charles
This is one of the most disgusting smears the right has come up with yet.
Michelle Malkin is now living near James Dobson's incredibly large compound, and that video was probably fed directly from Dobson's media center, like all of her recent appearances. The bizarre "fisting" accusations are coming straight from the bigoted religious right, and Malkin is their well paid puppet.
She tried to soak PJ Media for as much money as she could get, but now she's found a richer sugar daddy.
This latest attack on an Obama czar is a vicious assault on Kevin Jennings' integrity and on Pres. Obama's judgement in approving the appointment. It seems to be based on 8 or 9 year old allegations of homosexual proselytization of public school students which, if true, would call Jennings' fitness to be a school safety czar into question.
It will be interesting to see whether Obama comes to the defence of his czar or whether, as with Van Jones, Jennings is allowed or encouraged to resign for the good of the Obama team and joins Jones under the bus.
| 423 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:42:44pm |
re: #399 austin_blue
Oh, dear. It looks like a Shiite frat party...
It actually turns into a Norwegian "Odyssey", with the bad guys slaughtered in a locked and barred hall.
| 424 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:42:53pm |
re: #420 laZardo
That's Saturday Morning for me. I'll be out on my college-sanctioned do-gooding then. >_>
Alternative sentence?
;)
| 425 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:43:14pm |
re: #411 Alouette
Or they'd call the Mob.
No need for that. The Feds take counterfeiting very seriously. These days the Mob doesn't have to do anything but make sure the Tresury Department gets the evidence. They'd only do something if the casino itself was illegal.
| 426 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:43:14pm |
re: #378 Charles
And now, get a load of this smear:
[Link: wizbangblog.com...]
It's almost unbelievable how deranged the right wing has gotten.
I'll give them credit for 3 things over there:
1) putting words in people's mouths
2) constructing straw man arguments
which inevitably lead to
3) non sequitur responses of the highest order
At first their straw man arguments were predictable but by the end of the "story" it was hard to tell that they were even trying to respond coherently.
| 427 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:43:17pm |
re: #410 Bubblehead II
BTW Mandy, here is how the scam works. A individual approaches a floor cashier who is targeted and over whelmed by "guests". He/She complains that the Bill Validators will not take their bill and wants a replacement. In order to speed up things, since it is such a small denomination bill He/She just exchanges the bill without looking closely at it and give the "Guest/Thief" a valid bill for a fake one. There is no lack of education
I still don't understan but, that's okay. I can be quite dense at times.
| 428 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:44:28pm |
re: #412 Rightwingconspirator
Well arctic ice will soon be as rare as gold...
Only in the summer.
Take the first Carnival Cruise to Ellesmere Island! See the wildlife while you can!
| 429 |
ryannon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:45:30pm |
re: #409 avanti
Just bought a failed project Avanti. The guy dropped 25K into taking it apart, and rebuilding the chassis, then lost interest for 10 years. I'll have to part it out at this point.
project.
What you do have there looks clean and in good shape. Should be an enjoyable project putting it all back together.
| 430 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:45:32pm |
re: #423 Cato the Elder
It actually turns into a Norwegian "Odyssey", with the bad guys slaughtered in a locked and barred hall.
ΠΙΜΦ: "...Swedish..."
Let us not, at this late hour, confuse our Scandinavians.
| 431 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:45:42pm |
re: #422 Spare O'Lake
This latest attack on an Obama czar is a vicious assault on Kevin Jennings' integrity and on Pres. Obama's judgement in approving the appointment. It seems to be based on 8 or 9 year old allegations of homosexual proselytization of public school students which, if true, would call Jennings' fitness to be a school safety czar into question.
It will be interesting to see whether Obama comes to the defence of his czar or whether, as with Van Jones, Jennings is allowed or encouraged to resign for the good of the Obama team and joins Jones under the bus.
Why am I not surprised that you've completely swallowed this deceptive smear? Is there a point at which you might start to realize that you're being had?
| 432 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:46:50pm |
I do wonder what the price of gas will be in a year after the E.P.A. has greater control.
| 433 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:47:10pm |
re: #397 Mich-again
Your second paragraph really nails it. No recession, no Birch revival.
| 434 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:47:11pm |
re: #406 Cato the Elder
I have it on good authority from a survivalist relative of mine that the whole "buy gold" thing is a huge scam aimed at wannabe survivors.
If you want a negotiable type of currency for when TSHTF, you should buy silver dollars (last time I checked they were about 19 bucks a pop) for large transactions and rolls of Roosevelt (or other pre-base-metal) dimes for getting your tooth extracted by a dentist, buying a bag of barley, or negotiating with the crazee city dwellers who have kidnapped your no-longer-quite-virginal daughter for ransom.
Gold is for putzes and yutzes.
My TSHTF portfolio includes precious metals: lead, brass, blue steel.
| 435 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:48:03pm |
re: #432 MandyManners
Add $2.00 a gallon.
| 436 |
palomino Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:48:27pm |
re: #304 darthstar
Wow...how nice is it to have an AG who actually focuses on doing his job! The more I hear of Holder the more I like him.
No, what we need for AG is a religious zealot prosecuting people who sell bongs (65-year old tommy chong was really a threat to all of us?), sell pot (in med. marijuana clinics, no less) and make porn videos.
| 437 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:48:42pm |
re: #411 Alouette
Or they'd call the Mob.
Supposedly the owner of the house robbed, owes a Vegas Casino $100,000. And a car was blown up on the driveway, Thanksgiving Day...
[Link: www.ktla.com...]
| 438 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:49:54pm |
re: #421 Naso Tang
Bullets. Buy bullets.
You can trade bullets with other guys with bullets, but you can't buy bread with them.
Oh, wait. Yes you can. Just point a gun full of bullets at the baker's head.
Which makes your upright white-boy survivalist into a marauder, doesn't it?
Somehow I think your average right-wing gun-nut freak, when he imagines ravening hordes coming after his whorish daughters, doesn't quite see himself in those terms. But when the year's supply of flour runs out, how long do you expect his "friendship" with the local merchants will take to resolve itself into banditry?
| 439 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:49:55pm |
| 440 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:50:00pm |
re: #413 Killgore Trout
I haven't investigated the story because of all the bogus stories she's been promoting. I strongly suspect the story is not as Malkin is claiming. She's notorious for distorting things like this. I don't take it seriously.
Malkin claims that GLSEN is "proselytizing", trying to "recruit", which is ludicrous.
Some of what I saw appears to be stories for teens written by gay people about their discovery and coming out experiences; these might be helpful to young folks trying to come to terms with themselves.
But some of the excerpts I saw are indeed over the top; the GLSEN website itself states that some of the books contain "mature" themes and recommends that the adults selecting the reading materials review the books for suitability.
| 441 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:50:40pm |
What about the cost to heat/cool one's house?
My bill is between $400.00 and $600.00 monthly. For just me and The Kid?
Slam me into Watermelonism hell.
| 442 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:51:18pm |
re: #435 Rightwingconspirator
Add $2.00 a gallon.
Oh, at least. Holdren is all hap-hap-happy with that.
| 443 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:52:21pm |
re: #433 Rightwingconspirator
Your second paragraph really nails it. No recession, no Birch revival.
Opportunists. They've been laying low in the grass waiting for the economic turmoil which was inevitable to push the whole agenda on desperate dupes.
| 444 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:52:25pm |
re: #441 MandyManners
What about the cost to heat/cool one's house?
My bill is between $400.00 and $600.00 monthly. For just me and The Kid?
Slam me into Watermelonism hell.
No snark--check into "Cash for Caulkers".
| 445 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:52:41pm |
re: #438 Cato the Elder
You can trade bullets with other guys with bullets, but you can't buy bread with them.
Oh, wait. Yes you can. Just point a gun full of bullets at the baker's head.
Which makes your upright white-boy survivalist into a marauder, doesn't it?
Somehow I think your average right-wing gun-nut freak, when he imagines ravening hordes coming after his whorish daughters, doesn't quite see himself in those terms. But when the year's supply of flour runs out, how long do you expect his "friendship" with the local merchants will take to resolve itself into banditry?
You really have some DEEP issues with women, Cato,
| 446 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:52:51pm |
re: #427 MandyManners
I still don't understan but, that's okay. I can be quite dense at times.
As can I.
((Hugs))??
| 447 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:54:07pm |
re: #421 Naso Tang
Bullets. Buy bullets.
Don't buy them unless you are ready to use them. If you won't use them then you won't be able to trade them because the person you are trading with will.
| 448 |
abolitionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:54:08pm |
re: #441 MandyManners
What about the cost to heat/cool one's house?
My bill is between $400.00 and $600.00 monthly. For just me and The Kid?
Slam me into Watermelonism hell.
Central air w/ heat pump or something else?
| 449 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:54:17pm |
re: #444 Decatur Deb
No snark--check into "Cash for Caulkers".
Why? I am perfectly capable of maintaining my own property. I don't need the feds to help me out.
| 450 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:55:06pm |
re: #447 Mich-again
Don't buy them unless you are ready to use them. If you won't use them then you won't be able to trade them because the person you are trading with will.
good point.
| 451 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:55:20pm |
| 452 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:55:30pm |
re: #449 MandyManners
Why? I am perfectly capable of maintaining my own property. I don't need the feds to help me out.
What're you, some kind of right-wing conservative fascist-survivalist nutcase?
/braces
| 453 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:55:38pm |
re: #449 MandyManners
Why? I am perfectly capable of maintaining my own property. I don't need the feds to help me out.
It helps offset the harm you see the feds doing to you.
| 454 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:55:44pm |
re: #441 MandyManners
What about the cost to heat/cool one's house?
My bill is between $400.00 and $600.00 monthly. For just me and The Kid?
Slam me into Watermelonism hell.
If you have gas heat, you may be golden if there is regulation of C02, oil heat might get hit though.
| 455 |
mac Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:56:04pm |
re: #83 recusancy
How many are there? Where'd you get that "data"?
| 456 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:56:18pm |
re: #445 MandyManners
You really have some DEEP issues with women, Cato,
his response is always how fond he is for women...classic
| 457 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:56:25pm |
Gasoline prices have always been trending upwards.
| 458 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:56:30pm |
re: #445 MandyManners
You really have some DEEP issues with women, Cato,
Thanks for your amateur psychoanalysis.
Let me know where to send the fee.
| 459 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:57:26pm |
| 460 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:57:28pm |
re: #448 abolitionist
Central air w/ heat pump or something else?
Two of the former. Lotsa' vaunted ceilings. Four storeys.
| 461 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:57:46pm |
re: #441 MandyManners
What about the cost to heat/cool one's house?
My bill is between $400.00 and $600.00 monthly. For just me and The Kid?
Slam me into Watermelonism hell.
What type of heater?
| 462 |
djughurknot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:59:03pm |
Completely, hideously OT, but is anyone paying attention to the resumption and ramping up of strife and unrest in Iran by Green Movement remnants (if it ever really went away)? Watching some of the vids of rallies and others of the Islamic Republic's goons just plowing people over is pretty mind-blowing.
I really wish the Administration would step up efforts to back these folks, even quietly.
Anyone heard about efforts to do so, or have an opinion on these events?
| 463 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:59:22pm |
re: #452 laZardo
What're you, some kind of right-wing conservative fascist-survivalist nutcase?
/braces
So say some.
(How are you this morning? From what I could tell this morning, you took notice of my posts to you.)
| 464 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 7:59:45pm |
re: #455 mac
How many are there? Where'd you get that "data"?
Suggestion. When replying to a post that far upthread, you might want to hit the "Show Users" button. Recusancy is off the board. No need to waste your time.
| 465 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:00:12pm |
re: #462 djughurknot
Completely, hideously OT, but is anyone paying attention to the resumption and ramping up of strife and unrest in Iran by Green Movement remnants (if it ever really went away)? Watching some of the vids of rallies and others of the Islamic Republic's goons just plowing people over is pretty mind-blowing.
I really wish the Administration would step up efforts to back these folks, even quietly.
Anyone heard about efforts to do so, or have an opinion on these events?
they are & we won't.
| 466 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:00:21pm |
re: #462 djughurknot
Completely, hideously OT, but is anyone paying attention to the resumption and ramping up of strife and unrest in Iran by Green Movement remnants (if it ever really went away)? Watching some of the vids of rallies and others of the Islamic Republic's goons just plowing people over is pretty mind-blowing.
I really wish the Administration would step up efforts to back these folks, even quietly.
Anyone heard about efforts to do so, or have an opinion on these events?
nah...what's that stuff got to do with Sarah Palin?
| 467 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:01:09pm |
| 468 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:01:15pm |
Sitting in the 15 car drive thru line at In 'n Out tonight I got to thinking - will drive thru's ever be charged for the emissions that cars release while waiting for food?
-No, I didn't get animal style fries
| 469 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:02:02pm |
re: #466 albusteve
nah...what's that stuff got to do with Sarah Palin?
/unfortunately more than you might think
| 470 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:02:34pm |
re: #463 MandyManners
Eh, usual morning-in-my-timezone frustration. It eases out later on when the Overnight threads get posted. :D
| 471 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:02:38pm |
re: #468 bosforus
Sitting in the 15 car drive thru line at In 'n Out tonight I got to thinking - will drive thru's ever be charged for the emissions that cars release while waiting for food?
-No, I didn't get animal style fries
Probably not.
| 472 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:02:41pm |
re: #445 MandyManners
Actually, what I meant to say was that your average survivalist, after he finishes soiling his pants, would probably end up offering his virgin females to the ravening hordes from Detroit rather than part with one Double Eagle, silver dollar or Roosevelt dime.
And by that I mean you, Impotent Fist.
| 473 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:02:41pm |
Jon Stewart is starting. First shtick is "Cash for Caulkers". I must go recieve guidance from my Lefty Overlord. 'Nite All.
| 474 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:03:17pm |
re: #464 austin_blue
Suggestion. When replying to a post that far upthread, you might want to hit the "Show Users" button. Recusancy is off the board. No need to waste your time.
Its easy enough to do a quick search when you come back the next day to see if anyone responded to a comment after you left. I usually do that sometime after I sign in.
| 476 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:03:47pm |
re: #468 bosforus
Sitting in the 15 car drive thru line at In 'n Out tonight I got to thinking - will drive thru's ever be charged for the emissions that cars release while waiting for food?
-No, I didn't get animal style fries
no they will just pass the costs on to you...
| 477 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:03:55pm |
re: #468 bosforus
Nah they would get green credit for giving their used oil to biodiesel guys. Now thats the truck you want to be stuck near in traffic. Just smell the fries.
| 478 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:04:32pm |
re: #468 bosforus
Sitting in the 15 car drive thru line at In 'n Out tonight I got to thinking - will drive thru's ever be charged for the emissions that cars release while waiting for food?
-No, I didn't get animal style fries
YUM!
In & Out!
| 479 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:05:06pm |
| 480 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:05:41pm |
re: #462 djughurknot
Completely, hideously OT, but is anyone paying attention to the resumption and ramping up of strife and unrest in Iran by Green Movement remnants (if it ever really went away)? Watching some of the vids of rallies and others of the Islamic Republic's goons just plowing people over is pretty mind-blowing.
I really wish the Administration would step up efforts to back these folks, even quietly.
Anyone heard about efforts to do so, or have an opinion on these events?
ExPat iranians have done rather well overseas since 1979. I imagine that there is a fair amount of cash being transferred into the country to support the Libs. There was a good piece yesterday on NPR talking about how the Greens are getting around the rather significant efforts of the regime to tamp down electronic communication. Tough nut for them to crack because so may cell phones have video capacity and cell phone commo is so ubiquitous.
Info *will* get out. The revolution *will* be televised.
| 481 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:06:38pm |
Some people are so odd . . . well, I'm just really glad I'm me, and have my life and my family.
Fla. woman accused of hitting man with raw steak, because he wanted a roll instead of the piece of sliced bread she offered him.
| 482 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:07:23pm |
| 483 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:07:36pm |
| 484 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:07:46pm |
re: #470 laZardo
Eh, usual morning-in-my-timezone frustration. It eases out later on when the Overnight threads get posted. :D
I am not your mother. I am not your father.
That said, I MUST demand that you check out the LNDT this morning.
Lazardo, your future is in your own hands.
| 485 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:07:52pm |
re: #480 austin_blue
I can't help thinking that this nuclear program of theirs isn't so much a show of force against the region as it is their last trump card to solidify their power over the people.
| 486 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:07:52pm |
re: #468 bosforus
Sitting in the 15 car drive thru line at In 'n Out tonight I got to thinking - will drive thru's ever be charged for the emissions that cars release while waiting for food?
-No, I didn't get animal style fries
Nope, but when gas is steadily above $4/gallon, you'll start to think twice about parking and walking in, eh?.
| 487 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:02pm |
re: #481 reine.de.tout
Some people are so odd . . . well, I'm just really glad I'm me, and have my life and my family.
Fla. woman accused of hitting man with raw steak, because he wanted a roll instead of the piece of sliced bread she offered him.
OMG that is one massive bunch of ugly.
| 488 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:26pm |
re: #476 brookly red
no they will just pass the costs on to you...
Good thing my cheeseburger only cost $1.99!
| 489 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:33pm |
| 490 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:42pm |
| 491 |
koedo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:42pm |
I'm not with the deniers but I can't back the tactics used by the environmentalists.
As Jason A. #7 said earlier:
"I didn't like it when tea-parties interrupted the town hall meetings and I can't defend this. It doesn't make the deniers more receptive to the AGW argument. It'll just do the opposite."
| 492 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:08:52pm |
re: #481 reine.de.tout
So if that had been FBV... Hit with a cuke?
| 494 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:09:07pm |
And for those of you who love the "Christmas Story" movie:
Boise boy licks pole, gets stuck
Boys just can't help but try things out, can they?
| 495 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:09:56pm |
re: #490 MandyManners
Whatever.
Piss off.
No.
In fact, I'm about to do a national tour.
Care to meet for coffee?
| 496 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:10:10pm |
re: #476 brookly red
no they will just pass the costs on to you...
Seatbelts
Airbags
Laminated windshields
Crumple zones
Side impact protection beams
Collapsible universally jointed steering columns
Pedestrian protection systems
Padding of the instrument panel
Air injection
Exhaust gas recirculation
Catalytic converters
Evaporative emissions control
Emission testing
Unleaded gasoline
According to the automobile industry cars should be 1 million dollars by now. Never happened.
| 497 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:10:18pm |
| 498 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:10:26pm |
re: #482 brookly red
every time some one mentions in & out burgers I think of a clockwork orange.
The Durango '95 purred along real horrorshow as my Droogies and I played Hogs of the Road...
| 499 |
djughurknot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:10:45pm |
re: #480 austin_blue
NPR, huh? Man, maybe I should start listening again. Hearing that gives me hope, although I doubt that a revolution fueled on remittances can get very far. Here we were, going around trumpeting democracy, and here's a ready-made situation with "exposure to democratic traditions" written all over it.
| 500 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:11:12pm |
| 501 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:11:21pm |
re: #497 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Cucumber... Or ??
| 502 |
abolitionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:11:56pm |
re: #460 MandyManners
A layer or 2 of plastic sheets stapled onto window frames (perhaps inside as well as outside) may save a large percentage of your heating/cooling costs, assuming the house is otherwise well-insullated (R-15 or better).
A classic single-pane window has an R1 rating (thermal Resistance). so it "leaks" as much energy as, say, an R15 -rated wall that's 15x as much area.
A double-pane window has an R2 rating; double-pane with a thin layer of plastic suspended between has an R3 rating (approximately).
Each layer of plastic sheeting that you can add raises the thermal resistance by about 1 unit, and may last 1 to 4 years or so.
| 503 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:12:07pm |
re: #494 reine.de.tout
After that early experience that kid may be the next 40 year old virgin.
| 504 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:12:20pm |
re: #496 Gus 802
Oh, and if the auto industry does add some greenhouse gas control the auto industry will probably get the device from China for 200 bucks, add 800 bucks and blame the UAW.
| 505 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:12:20pm |
re: #487 Alouette
OMG that is one massive bunch of ugly.
As I said -
I'm really glad I'm me, with my life and my family.
| 506 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:12:26pm |
re: #472 Cato the Elder
Actually, what I meant to say was that your average survivalist, after he finishes soiling his pants, would probably end up offering his virgin females to the ravening hordes from Detroit rather than part with one Double Eagle, silver dollar or Roosevelt dime.
And by that I mean you, Impotent Fist.
That wasn't very nice, Cato. But I'm updinging you because those who post on The Deuce don't deserve nice. That was witty and brutal. I like it. >:D
| 507 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:12:45pm |
| 508 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:13:41pm |
Filmed with students during a video production course at the Orphans of Rwanda school in Kigali, Rwanda.
Cool! I made a video like that when I was a kid.
| 509 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:14:20pm |
re: #498 austin_blue
The Durango '95 purred along real horrorshow as my Droogies and I played Hogs of the Road...
yeah kinda like that
| 510 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:14:27pm |
re: #499 djughurknot
NPR, huh? Man, maybe I should start listening again. Hearing that gives me hope, although I doubt that a revolution fueled on remittances can get very far. Here we were, going around trumpeting democracy, and here's a ready-made situation with "exposure to democratic traditions" written all over it.
Hey, don't knock "remittances". It's what paid and continues to pay for Al Queda. All that Salafist money out of the Kingdom. Well, that and opium.
| 511 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:15:24pm |
re: #431 Charles
Why am I not surprised that you've completely swallowed this deceptive smear? Is there a point at which you might start to realize that you're being had?
What makes you think I've swallowed anything? I haven't.
If this is nothing but a baseless smear, I eagerly await the denial of the veracity of the allegations by the safety czar and a strong statement of confidence in his appointee by the President.
Unlike what happened in the Van Jones fiasco.
| 512 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:15:50pm |
re: #406 Cato the Elder
I have it on good authority from a survivalist relative of mine that the whole "buy gold" thing is a huge scam aimed at wannabe survivors.
I figured it was obvious from where they advertise. :D Any radio show that trades in psychic phenomena or paranoid far-right-wing ideology will have gold ads every break. Now though, it's spreading like kudzu because of the recession, even non-crazy hosts are pimping the gold, like they pimp bogus health supplements and quackery. Senior citizens are especially vulnerable to this stuff, gold is one of those "common sense" investments that actually makes no sense. Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always make money!
/I listen to too much insider talk radio
| 513 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:17:24pm |
re: #502 abolitionist
A layer or 2 of plastic sheets stapled onto window frames (perhaps inside as well as outside) may save a large percentage of your heating/cooling costs, assuming the house is otherwise well-insullated (R-15 or better).
A classic single-pane window has an R1 rating (thermal Resistance). so it "leaks" as much energy as, say, an R15 -rated wall that's 15x as much area.
A double-pane window has an R2 rating; double-pane with a thin layer of plastic suspended between has an R3 rating (approximately).
Each layer of plastic sheeting that you can add raises the thermal resistance by about 1 unit, and may last 1 to 4 years or so.
This is an efficient dwelling.
| 514 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:17:49pm |
re: #512 WindUpBird
I figured it was obvious from where they advertise. :D Any radio show that trades in psychic phenomena or paranoid far-right-wing ideology will have gold ads every break. Now though, it's spreading like kudzu because of the recession, even non-crazy hosts are pimping the gold, like they pimp bogus health supplements and quackery. Senior citizens are especially vulnerable to this stuff, gold is one of those "common sense" investments that actually makes no sense. Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always make money!
/I listen to too much insider talk radio
Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always get elected.
| 515 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:18:05pm |
re: #269 CyanSnowHawk
How exactly is the system broken? In Engineering, the first thing you do to a problem is characterize it. While there are anecdotes about the current health care systems problems being flung around by lobbyists and the media, this has not been done, not even a good first look has really taken place. Now Congress, that hotbed of special interests, is coming along and saying that they have the fix for it? Not bloody likely. From the look of things now, some very specific things will be changed, while other things will be completely ignored.
if you honestly don't understand by now why our health care system needs reform, after all the coverage of it, all the stories... I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you. You don't want to hear it.
| 516 |
djughurknot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:18:44pm |
re: #510 austin_blue
Oh. Right. Forgot about the Bin Laden/Saudi fortune(s). AND the world's love of teh opiates. Must be nice to fund a regime/attempted caliphate with a drug empire.
| 517 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:19:00pm |
re: #514 brookly red
Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always get elected.
Well, sometimes. ;-) Tea partiers appeal to emotion and panic, but they're not going to be running shit here. Uganda, on the other hand...
| 518 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:19:33pm |
re: #514 brookly red
Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always get elected.
certainly true last time around
| 519 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:19:39pm |
re: #434 Shiplord Kirel
My TSHTF portfolio includes precious metals: lead, brass, blue steel.
I have a full-size gun safe full of that shit.
Let's say you and I meet on the street. There's a loaf of bread in the center lane, and we're both hungry.
You show me your non-precious metals, and I'll show you mine.
Or, you know, we could just share the mofo.
| 520 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:20:04pm |
Looking through Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at any Speed" entry in Wiki. He broke a lot ground for automobile safety that probably saved 1000s of lives. There was a great deal of industry resistance to his book and subsequent advocacy. Today he's a quite the political eccentric with much to oppose but it's interesting to look at some of the industry response:
GM responded to Nader's criticism of the Corvair by both trying to destroy Nader's image and silence him by "(1) conducted a series of interviews with acquaintances of the plaintiff, "questioning them about, and casting aspersions upon [his] political, social, racial and religious views; his integrity; his sexual proclivities and inclinations; and his personal habits"; (2) kept him under surveillance in public places for an unreasonable length of time; (3) caused him to be accosted by girls for the purpose of entrapping him into illicit relationships (4) made threatening, harassing and obnoxious telephone calls to him; (5) tapped his telephone and eavesdropped, by means of mechanical and electronic equipment, on his private conversations with others; and (6) conducted a "continuing" and harassing investigation of him."
On March 22, 1966, GM President James Roche was forced to appear before a United States Senate subcommittee, and to apologize to Nader for the company's campaign of harassment and intimidation. Nader later successfully sued GM for excessive invasion of privacy. It was the money from this case that allowed him to lobby for consumer rights, leading to the creation the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the Clean Air Act, among other things
| 521 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:20:31pm |
re: #519 Cato the Elder
If things don't work out for either of you, I get free bread and guns. ;D
| 522 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:20:36pm |
re: #512 WindUpBird
I figured it was obvious from where they advertise. :D Any radio show that trades in psychic phenomena or paranoid far-right-wing ideology will have gold ads every break. Now though, it's spreading like kudzu because of the recession, even non-crazy hosts are pimping the gold, like they pimp bogus health supplements and quackery. Senior citizens are especially vulnerable to this stuff, gold is one of those "common sense" investments that actually makes no sense. Appeal to emotion and panic and you'll always make money!
/I listen to too much insider talk radio
For the past six months, my local talk radio station (KLBJ) has had "Buy Gold" ads running narrated by...Glenn Beck!!
Gold is a commodity, no different than pork bellies. If it's the flavor of the month and you get in on the bottom of a run, you'll do well. If you get in at the top of the market, and every market has a top, well, you're pooched.
| 523 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:21:15pm |
re: #517 WindUpBird
Well, sometimes. ;-) Tea partiers appeal to emotion and panic, but they're not going to be running shit here. Uganda, on the other hand...
actually in my haste to snark I screwed up... panic is one party emotion is the other. take your pick :)
| 524 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:22:01pm |
re: #521 laZardo
If things don't work out for either of you, I get free bread and guns. ;D
Me, when TSHTF, I'm going up on my flat urban roof and shooting anyone who tries anything.
All their cars are belong to me.
| 525 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:22:15pm |
re: #517 WindUpBird
Well, sometimes. ;-) Tea partiers appeal to emotion and panic, but they're not going to be running shit here. Uganda, on the other hand...
What's Uganda going to run around here?
/
| 526 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:22:26pm |
re: #523 brookly red
actually in my haste to snark I screwed up... panic is one party emotion is the other. take your pick :)
And until either actually focus on issues rather than emotion and panic, I'll be Green. >_>
| 527 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:23:19pm |
re: #520 Gus 802
DANG! Didn't know that. Tks!
| 528 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:23:55pm |
re: #526 laZardo
And until either actually focus on issues rather than emotion and panic, I'll be Green. >_>
touche
| 529 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:24:09pm |
I heard it was -7 degrees last night in Oregon. That is damn cold.
43 here now.
| 530 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:24:49pm |
| 531 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:25:16pm |
re: #527 Stanley Sea
DANG! Didn't know that. Tks!
YW. Never read the book. I've been trying to find industry parallels to today's PR campaigns which replaced the hardball tactics of the past -- although that still occurs from time to time.
| 532 |
wee fury Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:25:21pm |
Blizzard today.
Snowed in.
No bread. No soy milk. No peanut butter. No cereal.
I was forced to fry a chicken.
So I didn't starve.
| 533 |
djughurknot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:26:01pm |
re: #517 WindUpBird
Ugh. Uganda. Thanks for standing up against the vile hatred, Rick Warren, I knew we could count on you for a guiding moral influence.
/
| 534 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:26:26pm |
re: #422 Spare O'Lake
This latest attack on an Obama czar is a vicious assault on Kevin Jennings' integrity and on Pres. Obama's judgement in approving the appointment. It seems to be based on 8 or 9 year old allegations of homosexual proselytization of public school students which, if true, would call Jennings' fitness to be a school safety czar into question.
It will be interesting to see whether Obama comes to the defence of his czar or whether, as with Van Jones, Jennings is allowed or encouraged to resign for the good of the Obama team and joins Jones under the bus.
Jennings is being smeared by bigots. Jennings' organization has saved lives. Lives which were threatened by bigotry in schools, at home, in society...and bigotry which is being perpetuated by the Republican party. Right here, right now.
Do you honestly believe the right wing's smear on him? Do you actually believe this horseshit?
| 535 |
ED 209 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:26:32pm |
re: #519 Cato the Elder
I have a full-size gun safe full of that shit.
Let's say you and I meet on the street. There's a loaf of bread in the center lane, and we're both hungry.
You show me your non-precious metals, and I'll show you mine.
Or, you know, we could just share the mofo.
| 536 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:26:52pm |
re: #526 laZardo
What is this >_>? Like sarc?//?
| 537 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:26:54pm |
re: #69 Obdicut
So you think him calling them Nazi Youth is okay, since they were disrupting his conference?
I think disrupting a conference for a fake industry group is about neutral on the ethics scale. I don't think it's an effective thing to do, but I don't feel bad for the poor fake industry front group. I think it would have been more effective to go there and just film the near-empty room and the dumb, hyperbolic speeches. I think they were silly to protest it.
I think that calling them Nazi Youth is worse.
It's not "neutral". It disrupts the social contract. It's just objectively wrong to use force to shut people up, unless they're inciting to murder or crying fire in a theater when there is no fire.
It's not smart either. Fence sitters on global warming often are in over their heads on the science* so all they have to go on is the character of the cassandras and headinsanders. When cassandras demonstrate poor character, it makes AGW seem just another hippie cause. I'm no admirer of Alinski but I'll give him this: he was on to some smart tactics when he advised radicals to lead conventional lives apart from their radical agenda.
*In fact, I guess I'd go so far as to say that if you do wade through the science, if your talents run that way, and if you have the patience, you will find AGW science good enough to warrant precautionary steps.
As to characterizing the offending youth as "Hitler Youth", I think that's stupid too but why should I kvetch if the guys who are objectively wrong mess up their end of the public debate by overwrought rhetoric?
| 538 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:27:42pm |
re: #533 djughurknot
Ugh. Uganda. Thanks for standing up against the vile hatred, Rick Warren, I knew we could count on you for a guiding moral influence.
/
I never ever ever was a fan of that guy, he's an oily lying shitstain. And it pissed me off that Obama had to give him the time of day. I understand the realpolitik of courting the megachurches, but it still reeks.
| 539 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:27:57pm |
| 540 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:28:29pm |
re: #530 Rightwingconspirator
I'll take this opportunity to show you all what gold is really good for. Hint I am not going to show you 24kt) This guy is a departed friend, his daughter is now running the biz. Maybe the best jewelry in the world.
Lord, that man's stuff is drop dead gorgeous. Hell of a metal smith and designer.
| 541 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:28:35pm |
re: #536 Rightwingconspirator
What is this >_>? Like sarc?//?
In the young-person internets that I frequent, it's a look to the side. This: ^_^ is a smiley.
This: ;_; is a depiction of crying. This is a what-the-fuck look: O_o
| 542 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:28:37pm |
I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood...
| 543 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:29:01pm |
re: #539 brookly red
Oh, got it. (Hangs Head)
| 544 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:29:46pm |
re: #438 Cato the Elder
You can trade bullets with other guys with bullets, but you can't buy bread with them.
"Oh, wait. Yes you can. Just point a gun full of bullets at the baker's head.
Which makes your upright white-boy survivalist into a marauder, doesn't it?
Somehow I think your average right-wing gun-nut freak, when he imagines ravening hordes coming after his whorish daughters, doesn't quite see himself in those terms. But when the year's supply of flour runs out, how long do you expect his "friendship" with the local merchants will take to resolve itself into banditry?"
And you are are ignorant piece of shit. You lump all "Survivalists" in the same categories as White Supremacist.
We are not. We are not a majority, We are group of people who wish to only survive. We have no "racial" motives. "We" as a group only wish to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit under the Constitution.
| 545 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:30:02pm |
re: #522 austin_blue
For the past six months, my local talk radio station (KLBJ) has had "Buy Gold" ads running narrated by...Glenn Beck!!
Gold is a commodity, no different than pork bellies. If it's the flavor of the month and you get in on the bottom of a run, you'll do well. If you get in at the top of the market, and every market has a top, well, you're pooched.
Yeah, if you're a clever investor, it's one thing. I'm talking about buying gold from shady places that advertise on talk radio.
| 546 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:30:24pm |
re: #537 lostlakehiker
It's not "neutral". It disrupts the social contract. It's just objectively wrong to use force to shut people up, unless they're inciting to murder or crying fire in a theater when there is no fire.
It's not smart either. Fence sitters on global warming often are in over their heads on the science* so all they have to go on is the character of the cassandras and headinsanders. When cassandras demonstrate poor character, it makes AGW seem just another hippie cause. I'm no admirer of Alinski but I'll give him this: he was on to some smart tactics when he advised radicals to lead conventional lives apart from their radical agenda.
*In fact, I guess I'd go so far as to say that if you do wade through the science, if your talents run that way, and if you have the patience, you will find AGW science good enough to warrant precautionary steps.
As to characterizing the offending youth as "Hitler Youth", I think that's stupid too but why should I kvetch if the guys who are objectively wrong mess up their end of the public debate by overwrought rhetoric?
You assume it wasn't a set piece by the presenters?
| 547 |
mac Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:30:30pm |
re: #100 Obdicut
That's a bit less persuasive than " CLEAN ENERGY NOW "
A real argument loser.
| 549 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:31:21pm |
re: #540 austin_blue
Oh yeah. Advanced the art a decade right in front of my eyes, in a year. Wew lost him to an elderly driver turning in front of his motorcycle. His daughter is at least as good.
| 550 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:31:26pm |
re: #534 WindUpBird
Jennings is being smeared by bigots. Jennings' organization has saved lives. Lives which were threatened by bigotry in schools, at home, in society...and bigotry which is being perpetuated by the Republican party. Right here, right now.
Do you honestly believe the right wing's smear on him? Do you actually believe this horseshit?
No.
No.
Now let's see how Jennings and Obama handle it.
Get it?
| 551 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:31:32pm |
re: #541 WindUpBird
In the young-person internets that I frequent, it's a look to the side. This: ^_^ is a smiley.
This: ;_; is a depiction of crying. This is a what-the-fuck look: O_o
/some of those young persons are really cops... you should be careful :)
| 552 |
laZardo Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:31:46pm |
re: #541 WindUpBird
In the
young-person internetsweeaboo internets that I frequent, it's a look to the side. This: ^_^ is a smiley.This: ;_; is a depiction of crying. This is a what-the-fuck look: O_o
/been lurking on 4chan almost daily since 2007. 8D
| 553 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:32:32pm |
re: #456 albusteve
his response is always how fond he is for women...classic
No, my response - if I felt the need to make one - is how fond women are of me.
| 554 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:32:59pm |
re: #544 Bubblehead II
And you are are ignorant piece of shit. You lump all "Survivalists" in the same categories as White Supremacist.
We are not. We are not a majority, We are group of people who wish to only survive. We have no "racial" motives. "We" as a group only wish to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit under the Constitution.
What does that have to do with survivalism? I thought survivalists were just people concerned about war/nukes/the apocalypse and into the culture of being mega-prepared, havign a bomb shelter, stockpiling rations and weapons, etc...
"Left alone" can also be code for not wanting to follow laws or pay your taxes. ;-) Certainly not saying that's you, but there's a lot of dudes who are into guns and camo and Tom Clancy novels who are all about being off the grid and disappearing from the IRS, and they're very vocal.
| 555 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:03pm |
re: #515 WindUpBird
if you honestly don't understand by now why our health care system needs reform, after all the coverage of it, all the stories... I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you. You don't want to hear it.
It needs reform. Portability, so people don't get pushed out of the system when they lose their job and then find themselves unable to get back in because of a preexisting condition. Tort reform, so real resources aren't wasted running tests and giving prescriptions to no medical purpose. Standardizing medical records and putting them all on computers. Databases to spot correlations and epidemics etc. Better public education efforts to prompt people to watch their diet and get some exercise. Better public education efforts so we don't have so many people avoiding vaccinations. Better reporting rules for medical mishaps---this links in with tort reform. In the airline industry, a near-miss or other foulup must be reported to the FAA, but no punishments ensue. That way the FAA at least knows what's going wrong and can try to get it corrected. Better sanitation in hospitals.
Virtually none of this is in the bills now before Congress. What they call reform is not reform. It's a power grab, and at best it'll give us the low-grade mediocrity that is health care in Europe today.
| 556 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:26pm |
re: #548 davesax
MICHAEL CRICHTON was a big climate denier.
But he didn't make his case by simply attacking the other side. Perhaps he was wrong, but Crichton tended to hew closely to the science in his books.
| 557 |
djughurknot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:30pm |
re: #538 WindUpBird
Re: the realpolitik, yes.
I had never heard of Rick Warren explicitly, (although I HAD heard of "the purpose driven life") until the uproar started with the inauguration. A little study of the man, and I wasn't particularly impressed. This latest display of callousness dispels any sense of my giving him the benefit of the doubt.
| 558 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:31pm |
re: #548 davesax
MICHAEL CRICHTON was a big climate denier.
Yeah, but he wrote The Andromeda Strain which is bad*ss.
| 559 |
mac Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:47pm |
re: #464 austin_blue
Thanks for the tip, assuming you're still here.
| 560 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:33:53pm |
re: #548 davesax
MICHAEL CRICHTON was a big climate denier.
And dumbasses thought he was qualified because he wrote books about dinosaur theme parks. he must be a BRILLIANT CLIMATE SCIENTIST
| 561 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:34:04pm |
re: #553 Cato the Elder
No, my response - if I felt the need to make one - is how fond women are of me.
so fond that you live here ?
| 562 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:34:31pm |
Good night Lizards! See you later in the week.
Sweet dreams to all.
| 563 |
austin_blue Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:35:09pm |
| 564 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:35:15pm |
re: #556 Dark_Falcon
But he didn't make his case by simply attacking the other side. Perhaps he was wrong, but Crichton tended to hew closely to the science in his books.
No, he just made his case by lying. I have a friend who writes books about talking gophers, doesn't make her a zoologist. :D
| 565 |
avanti Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:35:30pm |
re: #544 Bubblehead II
And you are are ignorant piece of shit. You lump all "Survivalists" in the same categories as White Supremacist.
We are not. We are not a majority, We are group of people who wish to only survive. We have no "racial" motives. "We" as a group only wish to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit under the Constitution.
I guess, I'm a Survivalist too, just without the guns, and supplies.
| 566 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:36:00pm |
re: #549 Rightwingconspirator
Beautiful artwork. Thanks for posting it!
| 567 |
freetoken Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:36:34pm |
Reposted from downstairs:
Speaking of Copenhagen, the head US negotiator arrived yesterday. Here was his press conference:
[Link: www3.cop15.meta-fusion.com...]
I post it because there are many characterizations of what the Administration's positions are wrt Copenhagen, several of them false.
| 568 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:36:37pm |
re: #564 WindUpBird
No, he just made his case by lying. I have a friend who writes books about talking gophers, doesn't make her a zoologist. :D
How do you figure he was lying?
| 570 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:37:27pm |
re: #524 Cato the Elder
Me, when TSHTF, I'm going up on my flat urban roof and shooting anyone who tries anything.
All their cars are belong to me.
What? Don't you want to share your bread stash with the less fortunate?
| 571 |
davesax Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:38:03pm |
Jurrasic Park was one of the most powerful documentaries I ever saw.
| 572 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:38:14pm |
re: #129 Charles
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
Any meeting where the rent for the room has been paid is legitimate. Disrupting disreputable speakers who are lying and trying to fool people is wrong. Let them speak. Then refute them.
It's not just wrong, it's a self-defeating tactic. Those who break up the meeting look like thugs because they act like thugs, and this gives the public the impression that thuggery is the only argument they have against the other side's case.
| 574 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:39:47pm |
re: #566 Floral Giraffe
You are so welcome. I miss Steven. Anyway the larger point-He shows what gold is for. Not freaking Glenn Beck, not those cash for gold creeps. Gold is for beauty.
Just ask any lady lizard!
| 575 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:39:49pm |
re: #571 davesax
Jurrasic Park was one of the most powerful documentaries I ever saw.
uhhh you did say Bklyn ight?
| 577 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:40:50pm |
re: #572 lostlakehiker
And I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't agree with these tactics.
| 578 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:40:56pm |
re: #555 lostlakehiker
It needs reform. Portability, so people don't get pushed out of the system when they lose their job and then find themselves unable to get back in because of a preexisting condition. Tort reform, so real resources aren't wasted running tests and giving prescriptions to no medical purpose. Standardizing medical records and putting them all on computers. Databases to spot correlations and epidemics etc. Better public education efforts to prompt people to watch their diet and get some exercise. Better public education efforts so we don't have so many people avoiding vaccinations. Better reporting rules for medical mishaps---this links in with tort reform. In the airline industry, a near-miss or other foulup must be reported to the FAA, but no punishments ensue. That way the FAA at least knows what's going wrong and can try to get it corrected. Better sanitation in hospitals.
Virtually none of this is in the bills now before Congress. What they call reform is not reform. It's a power grab, and at best it'll give us the low-grade mediocrity that is health care in Europe today.
The things you suggest are all great ideas, but will not pass in one bill. You're asking for a shetland pony, a Porsche Carrera GT, the moon, and Ludwig's castle, all in one bill. I'm hoping we get something akin to a used Subaru Outback for the bill.
What we have now is the rotting husk of a Dodge Dart on blocks.
Any proposal of pervasive consolidation of health records into a national database (which i support) will become a gigantic vortex of paranoid screaming nonsense on the right wing as the Bachmanns and Palins ramp up their Maoist/Stalinist/Zodist/Satanic claims that any government program to create health care efficiency is the equivalent of shoving people into Dachau.
| 579 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:41:41pm |
re: #551 brookly red
/some of those young persons are really cops... you should be careful :)
hahahahahahahaha well played
| 580 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:41:51pm |
re: #572 lostlakehiker
Any meeting where the rent for the room has been paid is legitimate. Disrupting disreputable speakers who are lying and trying to fool people is wrong. Let them speak. Then refute them.
It's not just wrong, it's a self-defeating tactic. Those who break up the meeting look like thugs because they act like thugs, and this gives the public the impression that thuggery is the only argument they have against the other side's case.
And guess what? The other side sees this a a legitimate tactic for them to use too.
| 581 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:42:10pm |
re: #553 Cato the Elder
No, my response - if I felt the need to make one - is how fond women are of me.
you should seek help before you harm somebody...your convoluted, self indulgent posts that contribute to nothing more than your enlarged ego, are a grim reminder why we use straightjackets in severe cases of lunatics running loose through our society...you hate everybody but yourself...no woman in they're right mind would come near you...dream on
| 582 |
Mich-again Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:42:55pm |
re: #532 wee fury
No peanut butter.
Shudder the thought!
I have a toaster waffle covered with real peanut butter every day for breakfast on the way to work. Real peanut butter as in a layer of oil on top so you have to mix it up before you spread.
| 583 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:43:30pm |
re: #554 WindUpBird
What does that have to do with survivalism? I thought survivalists were just people concerned about war/nukes/the apocalypse and into the culture of being mega-prepared, havign a bomb shelter, stockpiling rations and weapons, etc...
"Left alone" can also be code for not wanting to follow laws or pay your taxes. ;-) Certainly not saying that's you, but there's a lot of dudes who are into guns and camo and Tom Clancy novels who are all about being off the grid and disappearing from the IRS, and they're very vocal.
shows how out of touch you are...you watch too much TV
| 584 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:43:40pm |
However ... having said that I don't agree with the tactics of the demonstrators, I have MUCH more contempt for the people they were demonstrating against.
Americans for Prosperity is deliberately lying to the public, and misleading the gullible into believing there is no threat from global warming, and this is criminally irresponsible in my opinion.
| 585 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:44:02pm |
re: #556 Dark_Falcon
But he didn't make his case by simply attacking the other side. Perhaps he was wrong, but Crichton tended to hew closely to the science in his books.
My favorite part in "State of Fear" was when the big-mouth celebrity "who plays the President on TV" gets eaten by hungry cannibals.
| 586 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:44:16pm |
| 587 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:44:31pm |
| 588 |
MandyManners Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:45:06pm |
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30
| 589 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:45:30pm |
| 590 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:45:41pm |
re: #568 Dark_Falcon
How do you figure he was lying?
it's kneejerk...LIAR!...hahaha!...will go a long way here tho
| 591 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:45:49pm |
re: #581 albusteve
You won't mind if I just GAZE at you, will you, you semi-literate troglodyte?
Of course you won't.
| 593 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:46:13pm |
re: #568 Dark_Falcon
How do you figure he was lying?
Well, to be fair, he could have been clueless and gullible.
If I claim I can fix your car, I would be lying. No matter m intentions, I don't know how to do it. If Michael Crichton claims expertise on climate science, he is lying. He writes fictional books to support his opinions which are then cited as science by dumb people.
He's also smeared journalists in his books who are critical of his nonsense by writing them as child molestors. Bet you didn't know that, huh? Classy guy, that Crichton. Total egoist scumbag.
| 595 |
Olsonist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:46:33pm |
Fine. Don't disrupt the meeting but defiantly picket them outside. Let them have their say amongst themselves; that's proper. But don't be afraid to take the debate to them.
| 596 |
LotharBot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:47:18pm |
re: #515 WindUpBird
if you honestly don't understand by now why our health care system needs reform, after all the coverage of it, all the stories... I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you. You don't want to hear it.
I think you misunderstood his point. He wasn't saying "the system isn't broken" or "the system doesn't need reform".
He was saying that the first step in fixing a broken system is characterizing it -- knowing in what ways it's broken, what causes it to be broken, how various factors interact in making it broken, and so on. Only once you understand the problem can you figure out the right tools and methods to use to fix it. Sometimes you'll need a hammer, but other times duct tape is the right tool and rushing in with a hammer will only make things worse.
So it is with health care reform. The system is broken. Congress is rushing in with a hammer, screaming that they'll fix it, but I haven't seen any indication from ANYONE in Congress that they've done the research necessary to understand what's wrong with the system. I haven't heard anyone in Congress even suggest that they're aware of the things lostlakehiker mentioned in #555, or that they recognize how many layers of accounting/paperwork are involved in preventative care (and how inefficient that makes health care.) Health care needs reformed, but I don't trust a Congress that can't even identify "lack of portability" as a problem to do the reforming.
| 597 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:47:26pm |
re: #591 Cato the Elder
You won't mind if I just GAZE at you, will you, you semi-literate troglodyte?
Of course you won't.
Um, not to nitpick or anything, but your comment makes it seem like you are staring at Steve.
| 598 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:47:59pm |
re: #591 Cato the Elder
You won't mind if I just GAZE at you, will you, you semi-literate troglodyte?
Of course you won't.
What's your favorite foreign language insult? Just asking.
| 599 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:48:12pm |
re: #95 worknhard
What is the most efficient form of solar energy storage?
Why does it get warmer in the summer and cooler in the winter?
Just asking.
The first question is hard. Maybe it's melting salt. Salt has a high phase-change energy and molten salt is really hot, so you have to have a lot of it in one place to avoid the heat just leaking away. You can access the heat easily when you want to. This could be used with solar thermal so that nighttime power was available.
The second question, well, "surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman". But if you're serious about it, the earth's axis is not perpendicular to the plane of our orbit around the sun. So every year, at one point in the orbit, the north pole is tilted kind of toward the sun, and it gets sunlight 24 hours a day, and the northern hemisphere gets more than usual hours of sunlight at a more directly overhead angle. And then halfway around the orbit, things are reversed and the southern hemisphere gets the extra sunlight and the northern hemisphere gets less and the north pole never sees the sun. The season when the north pole is pointed sort of at the sun is called northern hemisphere summer, and southern hemisphere winter. Turn it around for northern hemisphere winter and southern summer.
Go visit Bodo, Norway in late June and you can see the midnight sun for yourself. It sort of brings it home and makes it real.
| 600 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:48:25pm |
re: #591 Cato the Elder
You won't mind if I just GAZE at you, will you, you semi-literate troglodyte?
Of course you won't.
GAZE...the tough guy approach...and don't shoot yourself from your rooftop perch...I care about you man!
| 601 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:48:33pm |
re: #472 Cato the Elder
Actually, what I meant to say was that your average survivalist, after he finishes soiling his pants, would probably end up offering his virgin females to the ravening hordes from Detroit rather than part with one Double Eagle, silver dollar or Roosevelt dime.
And by that I mean you, Impotent Fist.
This conversation reminds me of my Dad's copy of 'What To Do WHen The Russians Come'. Now that was a classic. I wonder if anyone has done a rewrite for current times.
I'd do it myself, but I actually have hope of not actually going to hell on purpose.
| 602 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:48:54pm |
| 603 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:49:09pm |
re: #588 MandyManners
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30
Thanks, I always appreciate a good yoke.
| 604 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:49:20pm |
re: #478 Floral Giraffe
YUM!
In & Out!
On the short list of things I really miss since going semi kosher.
| 605 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:50:41pm |
re: #604 SanFranciscoZionist
On the short list of things I really miss since going semi kosher.
So go every other day. I don't see a problem here.
| 606 |
freetoken Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:50:51pm |
re: #584 Charles
Americans for Prosperity is deliberately lying to the public, and misleading the gullible into believing there is no threat from global warming, and this is criminally irresponsible in my opinion.
Not to mention they are also cozying up to the European xenophobic right-wing political machine.
| 607 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:52:09pm |
re: #519 Cato the Elder
I have a full-size gun safe full of that shit.
Let's say you and I meet on the street. There's a loaf of bread in the center lane, and we're both hungry.
You show me your non-precious metals, and I'll show you mine.
Or, you know, we could just share the mofo.
SOCIALIST!
| 608 |
rurality Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:53:32pm |
re: #584 Charles
I don't know about you, but I am tired of sort of giving these people the benefit of the doubt by calling them "gullible". It implies a kind of innocence, benign passivity. I think these folks are either intellectually lazy or unable to process, stubborn, etc. They just do not want to believe in anything that doesnt fit their imagistic world. Perhaps they are terrified and are stupefied, but they don't act like people who are frightened. Quite the opposite.
| 609 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:54:03pm |
re: #538 WindUpBird
I never ever ever was a fan of that guy, he's an oily lying shitstain. And it pissed me off that Obama had to give him the time of day. I understand the realpolitik of courting the megachurches, but it still reeks.
I think, and thought at the time, that both candidates should have declined that invite.
| 610 |
Racer X Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:54:07pm |
re: #606 freetoken
The European xenophobic right-wing political machine.
Is that a band?
I think I saw them at the Whiskey a few years ago.
| 611 |
badger1970 Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:54:15pm |
re: #595 Olsonist
The demonstrators could've had a field day reporting what the deniers were talking about, instead they act like idiots found on State St, Unfortunately, politics have distorted the debate and more importantly, blurred the correct path to a solution to AGW.
| 612 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:54:43pm |
Music interlude for those who appreciate older women.
Long time I have not posted any fado. Allow me to make it up with a song by Amália Rodrigues when her voice was fading but her status as the world's greatest living fadista was at its peak. I think she was about sixty when she recorded this. The poem is by Camoẽs, the national poet of Portugal, which caused a scandal when a "mere" fadista dared to sing it.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
And so goodnight, friends and foes. I could not and would not do without any of you.
| 613 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:56:03pm |
re: #598 Naso Tang
What's your favorite foreign language insult? Just asking.
Gey kakn oyfn yam.
Yiddish.
| 614 |
albusteve Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:56:34pm |
re: #612 Cato the Elder
Music interlude for those who appreciate older women.
Long time I have not posted any fado. Allow me to make it up with a song by Amália Rodrigues when her voice was fading but her status as the world's greatest living fadista was at its peak. I think she was about sixty when she recorded this. The poem is by Camoẽs, the national poet of Portugal, which caused a scandal when a "mere" fadista dared to sing it.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
[Video]And so goodnight, friends and foes. I could not and would not do without any of you.
I'm sure Mandy and Sharmuta will be impressed
| 615 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:57:00pm |
re: #571 davesax
That was purdy funny right thar.
| 616 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:57:17pm |
re: #596 LotharBot
You're expecting way too much out of congress, which are hundreds and hundreds of people representing wildly different constituencies, and then criticzing them when they don't all rise up and act as harmoniously as one, like Voltron. Democrats are trying to fix health care, and they're doing a rickety job of it, partially because there are plenty of insurance company interests in the Democratic party. But at least there's an ATTEMPT to do something, which is an improvement.
What i'm hearing from you and Cyan is that you want a perfect solution that jumps through every whim and every hoop, and appeals to your sense of process, and contains an impossible number of changes that would never ever pass in one bill, and if congress doesn't do EXACTLY THAT, then they fail.
If your standards of success are impossibly high, then the bill will always by definition be a failure, and you can continue to claim government blows King Kong and does nothing right.
I am a pragmatic realist. if the bill is 25% of what I want, good. if it helps people afford care who couldn't afford care before? Excellent. My standards of success are reasonable. Get it out there, start making it work, tweak it as we figure things out, learn from mistakes. Like engineers do when they build something. Like HUMAN BEINGS do when they create anything.
Imagine if cars were built the way you guys want legislation to be written. You have one shot! Design, build and produce an awesome car! Build it and go, it's done! One chance! No road tests, no tweaking, no prototypes, no stress-tests on the engine, no learning from mistakes. There can be no mistakes! Also, it must be everything we want in a car! No compromises!
| 617 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:57:35pm |
re: #604 SanFranciscoZionist
Congratulations to you for going semi kosher!
There ARE other rewards!
| 618 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:58:16pm |
re: #578 WindUpBird
The things you suggest are all great ideas, but will not pass in one bill. You're asking for a shetland pony, a Porsche Carrera GT, the moon, and Ludwig's castle, all in one bill. I'm hoping we get something akin to a used Subaru Outback for the bill.
What we have now is the rotting husk of a Dodge Dart on blocks.
Any proposal of pervasive consolidation of health records into a national database (which i support) will become a gigantic vortex of paranoid screaming nonsense on the right wing as the Bachmanns and Palins ramp up their Maoist/Stalinist/Zodist/Satanic claims that any government program to create health care efficiency is the equivalent of shoving people into Dachau.
The data doesn't have to be held by the government. The government can provide the database structure, and private companies can hold the data, backed up at redundant widely separated sites. With encryption and the internet, the data can be nearly instantly available to the patient himself or to any qualified medical practitioner, yet unavailable to those with no right to it. Security for such data would inevitably spring a leak from time to time, but the data wouldn't be available to the IRS any time an auditor wanted to know who would cave if squeezed.
What, in this bill, qualifies as reform? All I see is steps that over time would degrade almost everybody's chances. Mine included. Nationalized health care is implicitly health care without any incentive for R&D. New antibiotics are expensive to develop. The long view needed to justify spending on new ones, when the old ones work just fine [until the bacteria evolve resistance, which will be after the next election] just won't be there, for instance. Europe has virtually no role in developing new drugs. The same goes for new surgical techniques. And finally, this bill wants to extend quotas into the business of who graduates from medical school. The doctor who cannot make it into, or through, med school on his/her own merits is a doctor who will fail for real, with lethal consequences, when his/her failure in school is papered over.
| 619 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:58:18pm |
re: #601 SanFranciscoZionist
This conversation reminds me of my Dad's copy of 'What To Do WHen The Russians Come'. Now that was a classic. I wonder if anyone has done a rewrite for current times.
I'd do it myself, but I actually have hope of not actually going to hell on purpose.
Have I told you about this awesome novel called the Texas/Israeli War that my friend found for 20 cents in a used book store? :D [Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 620 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:58:23pm |
re: #612 Cato the Elder
Music interlude for those who appreciate older women.
Long time I have not posted any fado. Allow me to make it up with a song by Amália Rodrigues when her voice was fading but her status as the world's greatest living fadista was at its peak. I think she was about sixty when she recorded this. The poem is by Camoẽs, the national poet of Portugal, which caused a scandal when a "mere" fadista dared to sing it.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
[Video]
And so goodnight, friends and foes. I could not and would not do without any of you.
AMALIA!
| 621 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 8:59:38pm |
re: #617 Floral Giraffe
Congratulations to you for going semi kosher!
There ARE other rewards!
I have no regrets, except occasionally when In and Out, shar siu bao, or a few other items are concerned.
| 622 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:00:00pm |
re: #619 WindUpBird
OT
That is one interesting website you have there.
| 623 |
rurality Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:00:12pm |
re: #584 Charles
When you mention how irresponsible it is to mislead. Maybe that is the gist--nobody takes responsibility. Not leaders for the lies they spew, not the rapt audience who wont accept responsibility for even modest changes in behavior, because Al Gore flies too much.
| 624 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:00:26pm |
re: #619 WindUpBird
Have I told you about this awesome novel called the Texas/Israeli War that my friend found for 20 cents in a used book store? :D [Link: www.amazon.com...]
I have GOT to read that.
| 625 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:00:46pm |
re: #595 Olsonist
Fine. Don't disrupt the meeting but defiantly picket them outside. Let them have their say amongst themselves; that's proper. But don't be afraid to take the debate to them.
Forty protesters in the room... there were a bunch of empty seats anyway...
Epic Fail, Americans for Prosperity.
Epic Fail, bunch of punk protesters who brought attention to something that was getting no attention.
| 626 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:01:35pm |
re: #613 Cato the Elder
Dagnabbit, you're making me look words up, AGAIN!
;)
| 627 |
cwnorma Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:01:41pm |
Going to bed. Been a good lurk/read tonight. Thanks all.
| 628 |
brookly red Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:09pm |
re: #608 rurality
I don't know about you, but I am tired of sort of giving these people the benefit of the doubt by calling them "gullible". It implies a kind of innocence, benign passivity. I think these folks are either intellectually lazy or unable to process, stubborn, etc. They just do not want to believe in anything that doesnt fit their imagistic world. Perhaps they are terrified and are stupefied, but they don't act like people who are frightened. Quite the opposite.
/perhaps a proper stoning will bring them to there senses.
| 629 |
mac Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:12pm |
re: #154 island
I wonder why people ding you down
for merely quoting a scientific journal
| 630 |
LotharBot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:15pm |
re: #584 Charles
However ... having said that I don't agree with the tactics of the demonstrators, I have MUCH more contempt for the people they were demonstrating against.
The one side is a threat to our physical environment, likely motivated by greed. The other side is a threat to the social environment that allows us to hold and share views that others disapprove of, likely motivated by a censorship mentality, AND they just gave the first side ammunition. Both are tremendously dangerous, so I give both sides my utmost contempt.
| 631 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:28pm |
| 632 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:35pm |
re: #587 albusteve
ha!...windupbird is his bitch!
That wasn't very nice!
Just because I wear a dress sometimes, sheesh
| 633 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:02:42pm |
re: #627 cwnorma
Going to bed. Been a good lurk/read tonight. Thanks all.
Drop a comment now and then why don't ya!
:)
| 635 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:04:24pm |
re: #613 Cato the Elder
Gey kakn oyfn yam.
Yiddish.
I think there must be a spelling problem there. No translator recognizes even one word.
| 636 |
Shiplord Kirel Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:07:17pm |
re: #601 SanFranciscoZionist
This conversation reminds me of my Dad's copy of 'What To Do WHen The Russians Come'. Now that was a classic. I wonder if anyone has done a rewrite for current times.
I'd do it myself, but I actually have hope of not actually going to hell on purpose.
There are survivalists, nutjob survivalists, and people who know how to survive. The nutjob typically fears the urban environment, largely out of racism but also to indulge atavistic power fantasies centered on a womb-like rural redoubt with occasional trips to town to raid the ACORN-FEMA emergency stores and assassinate self-appointed commissars. The plain survivalist is a fearful but clueless hobbyist, not sure what to do but willing to invest some dough on the word of dubious experts, especially if they say what he wants to hear.
Personally, I would favor sticking with the cities unless they really are reduced to ash-heaps, in which case they will not harbor threatening hordes anyway. Cities, and towns of any size, are where you find things like doctors and people who know how to drill wells or build greenhouses or get the electricity running and who might trade that skill for something you have (preferably a marketable skill).
Among other things, the crazed nutjob has not considered how he might defend his bunker-redoubt, since he cannot stay awake 24/7 and he and his chosen mate probably could not hold off even a piddling ravenous horde for very long, especially if one of them knows how to fabricate a usable flame-thrower or an improvised mortar (quite likely in any fair-size band).
Like it or not, people have to work together.
| 637 |
rurality Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:07:52pm |
re: #628 brookly red
But what if their bodies are as impervious as their noggins? Stone hurlers would be killed by ricocheting rocks.
| 638 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:07:58pm |
re: #635 Naso Tang
I think there must be a spelling problem there. No translator recognizes even one word.
That's because there are about a bazilion ways of transliterating Yiddish (which is written in Hebrew letters) into English.
All it means is "go take a shit in the ocean". I figured Mandy would appreciate it, given her proclivity for telling people what to do with bodily effluvia.
| 639 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:08:05pm |
| 640 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:08:44pm |
re: #626 Floral Giraffe
And, curses, at that!
| 641 |
bosforus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:09:48pm |
Fun money tracking website:
www.wheresgeorge.com
Takes some patience though. 34 bills in 2.5 years and only one hit. Still fun though.
| 642 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:09:56pm |
re: #635 Naso Tang
I think there must be a spelling problem there. No translator recognizes even one word.
Google worked for me...
| 643 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:10:58pm |
re: #638 Cato the Elder
That's because there are about a bazilion ways of transliterating Yiddish (which is written in Hebrew letters) into English.
All it means is "go take a shit in the ocean". I figured Mandy would appreciate it, given her proclivity for telling people what to do with bodily effluvia.
Figures, kind of like translating Arabic written the same way. However, unless the ocean is a long way off, it is kind of weak.
My favorite, that I think I was called once as a kid, and still remember was "tu est un espece de mal sorti"
| 644 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:11:18pm |
| 645 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:12:05pm |
Hey Lizards!
It's c-c-c-old where I am--(Very Fasr Western Suburbs of Chicagoland)
This post has me puzzled--are there any sane viewpoints around this topic? Is there so much at stake (money, the planet etc) that no group can refrain from being whacko. Or is just that the whackos make good news?
How are you-all?
| 646 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:17:39pm |
re: #645 ggt
It's the latter. I'm fine, but not sure anyone else is still here. Goodnight.
| 647 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:20:05pm |
re: #643 Naso Tang
Figures, kind of like translating Arabic written the same way. However, unless the ocean is a long way off, it is kind of weak.
My favorite, that I think I was called once as a kid, and still remember was "tu est un espece de mal sorti"
Well, if you really want to get into heavy-duty cursing, there is nothing like the old Roman defixiones.
Here's an example from a gentleman who wants to make sure his team wins at the races, the curses directed at the rival teams.
I invoke you, spirit of one untimely dead, whoever you are, by the mighty
names SALBATHBAL AUTHGERÔTABAL BASULTHATEÔ ALEÔ SAMABÊTHÔR
Bind the horses whose names and
images [or likeness] on this implement I entrust to you; of
the Red [team]: Silvanus, Servator, Lues, Zephryus, Blandus,
Imbraius, Dives, Mariscus, Rapidus, Oriens, Arbustus; of the
Blues: Imminens, Dignus, Linon, Paezon, Chrysaspis, Argutus,
Diresor, Frugiferous, Euphrates, Sanctus, Aethiops,
Praeclarus. Bind their running, their power, their
soul, their onrush, their speed. Take away their victory,
entangle their feet, hinder them, hobble them, so that
tomorrow morning in the hippodrome they are not able to run
or walk about, or win, or go out of the starting gates,
or advance either on the racecourse or track…
I should sell this shit to NFL players. My pecuniary problems would disappear.
| 648 |
Gus Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:30:02pm |
re: #567 freetoken
Reposted from downstairs:
Speaking of Copenhagen, the head US negotiator arrived yesterday. Here was his press conference:
[Link: www3.cop15.meta-fusion.com...]
I post it because there are many characterizations of what the Administration's positions are wrt Copenhagen, several of them false.
I like this guy, Todd Stern. He's very matter of fact and professional. I was impressed with his response to the final question.
| 649 |
LotharBot Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:30:14pm |
re: #616 WindUpBird
You're expecting way too much out of congress
Expecting them to put in the effort to understand the problem before they ram through a solution is "too much"? Expecting them to be able to identify what needs fixed before they declare it fixed is "too much"? I don't want them to act harmoniously as one; it's better if they all bring different ideas to the table and therefore cover the entire problem instead of just ramming through a "solution" that may do more harm than good.
I'm not going to give them an "A" for effort -- the fact that they are "trying" to fix health care holds no sway with me. The only thing that matters is whether the fixes they're attempting are helpful or harmful. I don't need a perfect solution, I only need a solution that's a step in the right direction -- but I see no indication that Congress even knows what the "right direction" is or how to move that way. I see no indication that Congress understands what makes health care so expensive or so difficult to get in the first place; every indication I've seen is that their proposed solution will be one step forward and two steps back.
Engineers tweak things and learn from mistakes. BAD engineers tweak haphazardly and hope and pray their solutions work, and usually have to have a good engineer fix the database they crashed in the process. GOOD engineers make sure they're solving the right problem, characterize the problem domain, and then tweak things intelligently so that they come up with well-thought-out solutions that actually work.
I'm not asking for perfection from Congress. All I'm asking is that they approach the problem intelligently and make it better instead of worse.
| 650 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:32:00pm |
re: #631 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Semi Kosher?
Seriously?
Meat has to be kosher slaughtered, I don't mix meat and dairy. My kitchen is far from Chabad standard, and I eat vegetarian in rastaurants.
Semi kosher.
| 651 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:32:39pm |
re: #635 Naso Tang
I think there must be a spelling problem there. No translator recognizes even one word.
"Go shit in the sea?"
| 652 |
yoshicastmaster Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:33:09pm |
hahahahaha that was great. 'hitler youth.' really.
goodbye credibility
| 653 |
freetoken Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:33:38pm |
re: #648 Gus 802
Both he and his deputy (who did the previous press conference) are very no-nonsense types, and are fully aware of and appreciative of the politics of this matter within the US. I've been impressed with both of them.
Pretty much the whole right-o-sphere doesn't believe in a treaty wrt AGW (heck, many of them probably don't believe in any treaties). Nevertheless, we are going ahead with this, and it is heartening to see that we have some good people on top.
| 654 |
littleugly Wed, Dec 9, 2009 9:38:16pm |
re: #588 MandyManners
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30
Mandy,
| 655 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 10:46:19pm |
re: #622 Rightwingconspirator
Oh man, it's so out of date, all the art on there is years old. But it's still stuff I like, and it got me my current gig, so all's well :D
| 656 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 9, 2009 10:55:04pm |
re: #649 LotharBot
I'm not asking for perfection from Congress. All I'm asking is that they approach the problem intelligently and make it better instead of worse.
I think some Democrats are approaching health care reform very intelligently. And they are being smeared, and also drowned out by the senators and house members who are bought and paid for by insurance companies, and the GOP leadership which has gone full laughing-academy obstructionist wingnut.
You're complaining about the competence of congress. Comptence is a problem that could be solved. But it isn't actually the problem we're having.
The problem is corruption. The problem is insurance companies are entrenched, like ivy, snaking around congress members, hoisting them aloft and threatening to strangle them unless they vote the way the insurance companies want. You put all this on congress, the blame lies with the interests that control congress, which you seem almost determined to ignore.
| 657 |
SixDegrees Wed, Dec 9, 2009 11:50:24pm |
re: #129 Charles
And another point to consider: when tea partiers disrupted health care town hall meetings, they were acting like buffoons at legitimate meetings intended to generate honest discussions about the health care reform legislation.
This demonstration disrupted a meeting of wackos and industry shills who are spreading disinformation in order to fool gullible people.
It's not quite the same thing.
It is the same thing. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It doesn't become acceptable or even a little better behavior when it occurs in a different setting. And shouting someone down when it's their turn to speak is bad behavior, no matter when or where it occurs.
| 658 |
LotharBot Thu, Dec 10, 2009 12:34:29am |
re: #656 WindUpBird
I think some Democrats are approaching health care reform very intelligently.
You'll have to provide me with a link. What Democrat (or Republican) has taken the time to actually characterize what's wrong with health care? Whose Senate website describes the inefficiencies caused by the standard payment system, or the problem with lack of portability, or the unbalanced tax incentives that keep health coverage tied to employment? If there's someone out there who's actually done the research, I'll gladly eat my words.
The problem is insurance companies are entrenched... the blame lies with the interests that control congress
You act like Congress is a bunch of automatons doing the will of their masters. If they let themselves be controlled by special interests, they're still to blame. If they spend too much time listening to entrenched insurance companies and not enough time researching and understanding the way the system operates, that's still their fault. Ultimately, Congress is writing the rules to the game that me, you, our employers, the hospitals, and the insurance companies have to play by, and that's what I'm concerned with -- the rules they come up with and whether or not they're a step in the right direction.
I share your concern about Congress being too much in bed with the special interests. But it's merely a contributing factor to the larger problem: Congress doesn't understand the problem it's trying to fix, partly because they haven't done the research or aren't capable of understanding the system (incompetence), and partly because they're doing the bidding of the insurance interests (corruption). The net result of both incompetence and corruption is that Congress (as a whole) is trying to "solve" a problem it doesn't understand, using the same tools and methods that broke the system in the first place, guided by the people who made it that way, with no accountability to anyone if they make it worse. The net result is a bloated, expensive, misguided plan that does more harm than good.
With Congress acting both incompetently and corruptly, "at least there's an ATTEMPT to do something" (#616) is not a selling point.
| 659 |
kittysaidwoof Thu, Dec 10, 2009 2:49:17am |
re: #391 Kewalo
So I just started going around the web and was lucky enough to have someone turn me on to Real Climate and I just went from there. So, I have no doubt that the earth is getting warmer and it's humans that are a big cause of it. In the meantime I've gotten so I google every website and every author, and there are a lot of nutcases out there, but plenty of good scientists too. But you sound like you don't believe in it and that's why you're taking some hits over the issue.
I do believe that earth is getting warmer and I do believe humans are a significant contribution to it. Its the rest of the mantra I am having problems with, especially the policy proposals, which seem to range from opportunistic (massive wealth distribution schemes) to unrealistic (instant technology fix) to insane (genocide). Although if some of the doomsday predictions are true, the last one is the only effective instant solution. I've checked out Real Climate and I am not too impressed with it. It looks and feels just as partisan as the rest of them (its not like the other side have any better sites).
BTW there are a lot of policies related to combating AGW I do support, but not necessarily because of AGW, but because they make sense in any case - like weatherization of homes or cutting dependence from fossil fuels.
And BTW it's methane that's in flatulence. LOL
It was just my failed attempt to joke.
| 660 |
Joven Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:10:22am |
This kind of interruption is just as counter-productive as when CAIR show up at a Daniel Pipes conference or when Tea Baggers ruin a town hall meeting on health care reforms.
| 661 |
EE Thu, Dec 10, 2009 6:41:43pm |
The merger of science and politics is proceeding at a fast pace, and science is becoming a branch of politics in the public's mind. This sort of behavior reinforces the image of science being in the grip of politics, and it will not help the public to appreciate science. It will further erode the public's confidence in science, if the public feels that science is no more than politics by another means.
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ...
Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
Abortions Outside Medical System Increased Sharply After Roe Fell, Study Finds The number of women using abortion pills to end their pregnancies on their own without the direct involvement of a U.S.-based medical provider rose sharply in the months after the Supreme Court eliminated a constitutional right to abortion, according ... Cheechako
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
