Grumblers about government, please remember to value this benefit:

We don’t believe in trickle-down economics anymore, but we do believe in trickle down hate. And violence and intimidation that is practiced against our government representatives could soon enough be practiced against us.

Every Shabbos we pray for the government of the United States. As the third chapter of the Pirkei Avot notes: “Pray for the welfare of the government, for without fear of governmental authorities people would swallow each other alive.”

You hit a nerve, Charles.

Don't stop.

And thank you!

All of this truly makes us wonder where the Right wing has gone.

Me too. Seems those who thought they were part of the right are no longer wanted. They left us, and we're not sorry to part company, but it's as if we still feel the need to cling to a label whose current meaning is so far from what we agree with, I have to wonder why I want that label, and if Independent isn't just as good a label as anything else.

Small steps Charles, it's a long journey to get the right back on course.

re: #3 Sharmuta

You know what is in between the right wing and the left wing?

Breasts.

/I'm just sayin

That article sums up how I feel. My positions and feelings are conservative, but the sheer amount of nuttiness coming from the Right is driving me away.

re: #4 avanti

Small steps Charles, it's a long journey to get the right back on course.

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

re: #5 Racer X

You know what is in between the right wing and the left wing?

Breasts.

/I'm just sayin

Breasts and wings? Surely you're talking about bats?

It is indeed a great article, Charles. All the praise you're getting from decent and intelligent people makes up for all the crap you've been putting up with from villains.

A recent report by the Anti-Defamation League, “Rage Grows in America: Anti-Government Conspiracies,” places blame for the increase of violence, anti-government conspiracy theories and militias at the feet of the political Right.

What is this increase in violence?

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

That article sums up how I feel. My positions and feelings are conservative, but the sheer amount of nuttiness coming from the Right is driving me away.

Agreed.

re: #8 cenotaphium

Breasts and wings? Surely you're talking about bats?

No, I'm talking about Sheena Easton!

Less than a changed mind, sans global warming, it seems more like people finally grasped the possibility that you can think radical Islam is dangerous and should be confronted without being a raving right wing racist who hats science.

Shocker.

re: #13 Teh Flowah

hats=hates :)

re: #5 Racer X

Ahh, Freetoken's First Law of the Internet in action: any thread can be turned into a boob thread.

re: #3 Sharmuta

Me too. Seems those who thought they were part of the right are no longer wanted. They left us, and we're not sorry to part company, but it's as if we still feel the need to cling to a label whose current meaning is so far from what we agree with, I have to wonder why I want that label, and if Independent isn't just as good a label as anything else.

I used to label myself but then realized that I started to try to fit the label or better what others defined the label as, instead of just thinking critically about whatever the issue was. It ended up getting a bit backwards. Label first then thinking so I just scrapped it, stopped worrying about it and let other people worry about labeling me if they felt it was such an important thing to do.

A Tea Party rally is no place for a Jew. Whether you agree or disagree with his policies, Mr. Obama is the President of the United States and, if nothing else, he deserves to command the respect that we as citizens owe to that office.

Very true. As more people are discovering a Tea Party is no place for blacks, Hispanics, Asians (aside from Michelle Malkin who writes for white supremacist site like VDARE). Certainly no place for polytheist Hindus or pagan Buddhists. Atheist gay fisters are certainly out of the question.

re: #14 Teh Flowah

hats=hates

Pretty broad brush.
/

re: #12 SteveC

The 80's? For real?

May I retort?

"Leaders like Sarah Palin, Joe Wilson, and Dick Cheney are more embarrassing than inspiring."

They hit that right on the head.

re: #20 Soap_Man

"Leaders like Sarah Palin, Joe Wilson, and Dick Cheney are more embarrassing than inspiring."

They hit that right on the head.

I was a bit surprised to see Dick Cheney listed. Thought he was still well thought of on the right.

While the left has always had its share of crazies (ever met a card-carrying Republican with a PETA membership?) it seems the Right has begun to match them kook for kook, loon for loon.

I think some of the loons just protest anyone they can. Alex Jones may not be a friend of the Democratic party but his whole "9/11 was an inside job!" certainly didn't win him any friends in the Republican party, either. Kinda makes one wonder what percentage of Obama era loons were Bush era loons as well. I could see 20% easily - could it be as high as 50%?

" it seems the Right has begun to match them kook for kook, loon for loon."

Please keep shining the light on the under the rock dwellers.

re: #7 Charles

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

That saddens me, even as a leftie, I feel the need for a strong and rational opposition. I understand your feelings, but hope someone will step forward for a course change.

re: #19 Racer X

The 80's? For real?

May I retort?

That's not a bad song, though its video is deliberately over the top. Then again, at least Lady Gaga writes her own songs. She's not manufactured like so many pop stars are.

re: #24 avanti

I think America is politically recalibrating itself to be more toward the generally-accepted center. This means leaving, perhaps finally, the familiar American right-wing in the fringe.

re: #7 Charles

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

Well, trying or not, you play a roll in a certain way. The conservatives on this site are given a place to discuss the admirable aspects of conservatism, and may change the minds of a liberal or two. And, likewise, a liberal may change the mind of a conservative. (At least on an issue or two. And even if minds aren't changed, it shows there both sides can have good ideas and leads us all to defend our positions and challenge our own reasoning.)

But more importantly, the criticisms of the whacko right-wing leaders damages their credibility. It forces them to defend their positions, and they often do a poor job of it, further exposing their hate-filled rhetoric.

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

Then again, at least Lady Gaga writes her own songs. She's not manufactured like so many pop stars are.

Considering the outfits she wears, I prefer manufactured. D:

re: #27 Soap_Man

Well, trying or not, you play a roll in a certain way. The conservatives on this site are given a place to discuss the admirable aspects of conservatism, and may change the minds of a liberal or two. And, likewise, a liberal may change the mind of a conservative. (At least on an issue or two. And even if minds aren't changed, it shows there both sides can have good ideas and leads us all to defend our positions and challenge our own reasoning.)

But more importantly, the criticisms of the whacko right-wing leaders damages their credibility. It forces them to defend their positions, and they often do a poor job of it, further exposing their hate-filled rhetoric.

Indeed. You wouldn't happen to be a Chicago native, would you?

re: #26 laZardo

I think America is politically recalibrating itself to be more toward the generally-accepted center. This means leaving, perhaps finally, the familiar American right-wing in the fringe.

To me, that means I have to trust the Democrats won't go off the rails to the left, and I trust neither party to stay centered unless restrained.

re: #24 avanti

That saddens me, even as a leftie, I feel the need for a strong and rational opposition. I understand your feelings, but hope someone will step forward for a course change.

Term used in Canada is "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition". When you understand the fact that the Crown/the Queen are essentially the personification of the government(as opposed to the Prime Minister and his Cabinet) , it really nicely ties in the idea that the Opposition really is part of government and not simply attacking it so it can take over. Mind you this more often than naught is simply an ideal and the whole thing ends in a screaming match.

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. You wouldn't happen to be a Chicago native, would you?

Yeah. Born and raised. Why do you ask?

re: #27 Soap_Man

Well, trying or not, you play a roll in a certain way. The conservatives on this site are given a place to discuss the admirable aspects of conservatism, and may change the minds of a liberal or two. And, likewise, a liberal may change the mind of a conservative. (At least on an issue or two. And even if minds aren't changed, it shows there both sides can have good ideas and leads us all to defend our positions and challenge our own reasoning.)

But more importantly, the criticisms of the whacko right-wing leaders damages their credibility. It forces them to defend their positions, and they often do a poor job of it, further exposing their hate-filled rhetoric.

I didn't think conservatism had any admirable traits, being synonymous with radical right-wing thinking. The more reasoned arguments for responsible, efficient government would be more in line with libertarianism (with a small 'l' to avoid confusion with the party of the same name.)

re: #16 Jadespring

I guess part of me just wants to take back what I think was stolen, but it might be too difficult to correct the damage at this point.

re: #30 avanti

To me, that means I have to trust the Democrats won't go off the rails to the left, and I trust neither party to stay centered unless restrained.

I doubt they'd go that far off the rails if at all, given all the political machines they have strong ties to. They're populists, to be sure, but America at least never appreciated the fringe for too long.

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Very true. As more people are discovering a Tea Party is no place for blacks, Hispanics, Asians (aside from Michelle Malkin who writes for white supremacist site like VDARE). Certainly no place for polytheist Hindus or pagan Buddhists. Atheist gay fisters are certainly out of the question.

Nasty as ever,
Atheist gay fisters are certainly out of the question.

re: #32 Soap_Man

Yeah. Born and raised. Why do you ask?

Just greeting a fellow Chicago native. I was also born in Chicago and grew up there, though I now live in the suburbs. It is a good year to be a Blackhawks fan, and I appreciate your avatar.

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Very true. As more people are discovering a Tea Party is no place for blacks, Hispanics, Asians (aside from Michelle Malkin who writes for white supremacist site like VDARE). Certainly no place for polytheist Hindus or pagan Buddhists. Atheist gay fisters are certainly out of the question.

Michelle Malkin shames the Filipino community.

/that's all I'll say about that.

re: #34 Sharmuta

I guess part of me just wants to take back what I think was stolen, but it might be too difficult to correct the damage at this point.

That's totally understandable.

re: #7 Charles

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

The right, as currently constructed/led, is going off the cliff. But this country still needs SOME functional entity on the right. Maybe it's best to let the Republican party, FOX News, etc. drive off the cliff without us -- but those of us still here and still in agreement about many of the principles the "right" held during the Reagan administration need a voice. I'm not willing to abdicate everything to the Democrats (the party of Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, Al Sharpton, and Code Pink.)

So where do we go from here? Can the right be pulled back from the cliff? Can we create something new that has all/most of the good attributes of the right with none/fewer of the bad? Or are we really stuck with the choice between Creationists on the right, Commies on the left, and a Libertarian party that's not really libertarian and can't win elections anyway? Your comments about leaving the right resonated with a lot of people, and it seems many of us are left without a political home at all.

re: #33 laZardo

I didn't think conservatism had any admirable traits, being synonymous with radical right-wing thinking. The more reasoned arguments for responsible, efficient government would be more in line with libertarianism (with a small 'l' to avoid confusion with the party of the same name.)

I disagree. Some see conservatism as being synonymous with radical right-wing thinking, but that's only because the message has been high-jacked by radical right-wing thinkers.

The message has always been about, among other things, smaller government, with more emphasis on state and local government because they are more accountable to the public. Just because people have taken "conservatism" and warped it to meet their own ideals and goals doesn't mean that the general principal, the one that has existed for as long as America has, is now less valid.

A great editorial. Very well put.

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

Just greeting a fellow Chicago native. I was also born in Chicago and grew up there, though I now live in the suburbs. It is a good year to be a Blackhawks fan, and I appreciate your avatar.

Well, nice to meet you. It has been a great year to be a Hawks fan (something needs to distract me from the craphole that is the Chicago Bears.)

And I don't know about you, but I had a hell of a time getting home from work today. :)

Beck Compares Tiger To OJ Simpson

Why is right wing radio freaking out over Tiger?

re: #41 Soap_Man

I disagree. Some see conservatism as being synonymous with radical right-wing thinking, but that's only because the message has been high-jacked by radical right-wing thinkers.

The message has always been about, among other things, smaller government, with more emphasis on state and local government because they are more accountable to the public. Just because people have taken "conservatism" and warped it to meet their own ideals and goals doesn't mean that the general principal, the one that has existed for as long as America has, is now less valid.

I don't disagree that the actual issues have become less valid. However, it would still be wrong to affiliate smaller government with conservatism as we have seen that conservatism has always seemed to edge into more authoritarian angles, especially with the groups we're seeing now.

re: #44 Racer X

He's not white.

re: #44 Racer X

As a white guy who's seen this kind of stuff before, I think this is typical white guy reaction to a black guy who has a history of being involved with white women. It's racism straight through. It's "how dare he!" stuff. They won't say it up front, but it smells to high heaven.

re: #47 Irenicum

I would disagree. Tiger is a sports star, the likes of Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant. He has managed his image VERY well. The Gossip Mills have him up to 13? is it? "mistresses. So, what makes a "mistress" versus a "girlfriend"? And, gosh, that is a LOT of ladies he's had in the sack.
I do not think this is primarily about race, but the fall of a "puritan".

UNFCCC Webcast

"The Danish document is a Bretton Woods take over of the UNFCCC"... a resource grab and more colonialism, controlling resources, 60% of the atmosphere for 20% of the richest countries.

The document President Obama's representative is asking us to sign, is an un-fair, un-equitable deal.

(Paraphrase if not in quotes)

(The reporters then asked the question how he can agree to negotiate when the 3.5 degree* increase agreed would result in the death of everyone in Africa)

He does make some valid points from his perspective. "The Prime Minister of Demark is desperate for a successful deal at any price, a successful deal should be a balanced one, and a balanced deal has to be balanced between what the development countries are asking and what the undeveloped nations are asking.

[ 2 degree being proposed would mean an increase of 3.5degrees in Africa according to the IPCC]

re: #45 laZardo

I don't disagree that the actual issues haven't become less valid.

PIMF on double/triple negatives.

re: #49 Bagua

G77 and China Press conference (btw)

re: #49 Bagua

Lumumba knows how to set the stage, doesn't he?

The problem for him is that the big players really do use the G77 for their political games. China is doing it now, but we all have found it useful at times to get the smaller and poorer countries to be our proxies.

re: #45 laZardo

I don't disagree that the actual issues have become less valid. However, it would still be wrong to affiliate smaller government with conservatism as we have seen that conservatism has always seemed to edge into more authoritarian angles, especially with the groups we're seeing now.

But I don't think the groups we are seeing now actually represent conservatism. They can say they they do until they are blue in the face, but it doesn't make it so.

But you are right that the "conservative" representatives in government recently have edged into more authoritative angles, but that's a problem with the messenger, not the message.

There are a lot of things that have pissed me off, but I don't think Republican = conservative. Republicans have used government to crack down on practices that they see as "unethical," but I don't think a true conservative cares for that level of intrusion. For example, to quote The West Wing, "Republicans want to shrink the government down so that it is so small it can fit in our bedrooms."

re: #53 Soap_Man

But I'm starting to ramble. Too much scotch I guess. :)

If I may quote internet reviewer Lewis "Linkara" Lovhaug regarding the insanity of the right and the left, "A pox on both their houses."

re: #54 Soap_Man

But I'm starting to ramble. Too much scotch I guess. :)

Oh I wish I had some scotch right now. :)

Balance of obligations?

G'Night, Dear Lizards.
Stay scaly!
Keep shining the light under those rocks!
(Which will b e nice warm sunning places in the light of day!)

re: #44 Racer X

That was outrageous.

For the record, I am a liberal who hates PETA with every fiber of my being.

re: #53 Soap_Man

Conservatism has never been specific to one particular party, that I will say. Republicans helped to support civil rights long after Lincoln (Eisenhower, IIRC, called the 101st Airborne to defend the Little Rock integration) while on the other hand we had the infamous "Dixiecrats."

Still, it's not as if conservatism didn't create more authoritarian state- and city-level governments as well. Conservative governments in 20th Century America have a rather nasty record of suppressing workers' rights and civil rights.

Of course, much of the corruption affecting ostensibly 'liberal' states comes from complacency on the account of government officials creating bureaucracy to enrich themselves, hence bigger yet vastly inefficient government. Many organizations including some rather large unions claiming to represent the "people's interest" have also become part of the machines they fought.

re: #60 WindUpBird

For the record, I am a liberal who hates PETA with every fiber of my being.

That makes two of us.

The empire! Who is this guy?

re: #52 freetoken

Lumumba knows how to set the stage, doesn't he?

The problem for him is that the big players really do use the G77 for their political games. China is doing it now, but we all have found it useful at times to get the smaller and poorer countries to be our proxies.

Yes, brilliant speech really.

It seems strange how China gets lumped in with the G77 despite its co2 emissions surpassing the US.

And why should Africa agree a deal that means their demise?

re: #48 Floral Giraffe

I think it's both. He's obviously fallen very far from his public image. On that can't help but agree. I've always been a huge fan of his. This current situation is sad beyond belief. His ego obviously got the better of him. In that he's no different than any other public figure. But I do believe that some on the right, in their comparison of him to OJ, are evoking dog whistle stuff that certain ears are more than willing to listen to. That's what I have a visceral reaction to. As I've said in previous contexts, I grew up in a racially charged environment in NYC and know when code language is being used. I sensed it here too.

re: #48 Floral Giraffe

I would disagree. Tiger is a sports star, the likes of Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant. He has managed his image VERY well. The Gossip Mills have him up to 13? is it? "mistresses. So, what makes a "mistress" versus a "girlfriend"? And, gosh, that is a LOT of ladies he's had in the sack.
I do not think this is primarily about race, but the fall of a "puritan".

I'm sure some are pissed off because he's a black guy sleeping with a bunch of pretty which women, but I don't think that is what is driving the media coverage or public interest.

Honestly, if this exact same thing was going on, but it was Peyton Manning instead of Tiger Woods, it would be just as big of a deal.

re: #62 laZardo

That makes two of us.

When I was a teenager, the idea of people wearing fur just infuriated me, so I joined PETA. And then I actually saw all their politics, and then I was just blown away.

I also hate MADD because they have evolved from a real drunk-driving prevention group to a bunch of psychotic neo-prohibitionist busybodies who want to criminalize drinking and put breweries and bars out of business.

Hey I can ding now!

re: #57 Gus 802

Balance of obligations?

Exactly, the developing nations must reduce their share by 66% so the rest can have their share. But then this would mean the killing off of Africa so they shouldn't be accepting this.

re: #47 Irenicum

As a white guy who's seen this kind of stuff before, I think this is typical white guy reaction to a black guy who has a history of being involved with white women. It's racism straight through. It's "how dare he!" stuff. They won't say it up front, but it smells to high heaven.

Downding. Tiger has been married to a "white woman" for a number of years and there was no grumbling the likes of which you describe

re: #48 Floral Giraffe

Floral has it right. It's because he has blown his squeeky clean All American boy, family man image not with just one, or two , but a DOZEN mistresses

re: #64 Bagua

Yes, brilliant speech really.

It seems strange how China gets lumped in with the G77 despite its co2 emissions surpassing the US.

And why should Africa agree a deal that means their demise?

G77 wants reparations.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

-Barry Goldwater, 1964

I think the terms "moderate" and "extreme" are part of the problem. Extremism per se is not the problem with the nutjob right. The problem is their irrationality, dishonesty, and their ignorance of, and lack of respect for, American principles.

It is easy to understand the prevalence of "moderate" and "extreme" in our rhetorical milieu: Politics is largely the art of compromise and compromise usually requires moderation.

However, compromise is not always possible. There can be no compromise with racists and fascists. There can be no compromise with theocrats who openly declare their intention to murder my gay neighbors and associates. There can be no compromise with creationist charlatans who would replace science with their crude superstition in public schools. The First Amendment is all the compromise to which these people are entitled. They can't be jailed for their craziness, and they, in turn, will similarly respect our rights and principles. They show little willingness to do so. Creationists, for example, claim only to want a fair hearing. Their insane and unrelenting demonization of evolutionary science, blaming it for everything from the Holocaust to teen pregnancy, says otherwise however.

We do not need moderates, we need people who will stand up for the Constitution, who understand the Founding Fathers and the Age of Enlightenment that created them. I am afraid that the latter will require an increasingly extreme commitment in the future.

re: #66 Soap_Man

I'm sure some are pissed off because he's a black guy sleeping with a bunch of pretty which women, but I don't think that is what is driving the media coverage or public interest.

Honestly, if this exact same thing was going on, but it was Peyton Manning instead of Tiger Woods, it would be just as big of a deal.

He's one of the most popular athletes on the face of the earth, he has done more for golf as a sport than anyone in two decades. That is what is driving coverage. He's the Pele of golf. it would NOT be as big a deal if it were Manning because there are hundreds of high profile NFL players, some of which behave atrociously. There's not enough room in the news to track all the bad things NFL players do. ;-)

re: #47 Irenicum

As a white guy who's seen this kind of stuff before, I think this is typical white guy reaction to a black guy who has a history of being involved with white women. It's racism straight through. It's "how dare he!" stuff. They won't say it up front, but it smells to high heaven.

It's more than that. They hate he's the most dominate player his sport has ever seen. And he's not white! The NERVE! This has dogged Tiger's career before this, and it is now- as it's always been- disgusting. Fuck Beck- I don't give a damn what Tiger's been doing- it's none of my business. He's done more to knock down barricades than any athlete in a generation. As if he's the first man to let things go to his head- give me a break. If Beck or Rush or anyone thinks I'll stop rooting for Tiger, they're sorely mistaken. You GO, Tiger- win 'em all!

re: #49 Bagua

Interesting post from a South African who is there.

[Link: adamwelz.wordpress.com...]

re: #61 laZardo

I guess we agree on one thing: Any ideal can be corrupted when it is in the hands of the corruptible.

re: #54 Soap_Man

But I'm starting to ramble. Too much scotch I guess. :)

Pyramid Snow Cap ale over here. :D

/silly rabbit, scotch is for kids

re: #71 Gus 802

G77 wants reparations.

How is it reparations if it means death for Africa?

Why shouldn't they demand a deal that given them survival and a per capita share of emissions that is the same as any person on earth?

re: #74 Sharmuta

You go girl!

re: #78 Bagua

How is it reparations if it means death for Africa?

Why shouldn't they demand a deal that given them survival and a per capita share of emissions that is the same as any person on earth?

Well, I had no idea that they were predicting survival rates in this conference. Seems rather specific.

re: #78 Bagua

How is it reparations if it means death for Africa?

Why shouldn't they demand a deal that given them survival and a per capita share of emissions that is the same as any person on earth?

Now they're asking about criminal negligence.

re: #44 Racer X

Beck Compares Tiger To OJ Simpson

[Video]

Why is right wing radio freaking out over Tiger?

Wow.

re: #73 WindUpBird

Well, I would be just as interested in it were Manning. The guy is such a dork, I'd be surprised he even has sex. :)

re: #74 Sharmuta

Problem is, he's now (and has been for years) much more than a golfer. He has become an industry unto himself. he broke two obligations here. The 1st, obviously, to his wife and family. The second is all the companies that have stock in him. He projected and sold himself with a certain image, one that he has cashed in on tremenously

re: #61 laZardo

Still, it's not as if conservatism didn't create more authoritarian state- and city-level governments as well. Conservative governments in 20th Century America have a rather nasty record of suppressing workers' rights and civil rights.

I'm predicting a rise in the power of unions in the next 15 years.

/cue conservative rage, card check rage hrghlrghlbrlrgrbr

re: #80 Gus 802

Well, I had no idea that they were predicting survival rates in this conference. Seems rather specific.

He is referencing the IPCC. The predictions for Africa are quite dire.

What price should they accept for suicide?

re: #67 WindUpBird

When I was a teenager, the idea of people wearing fur just infuriated me, so I joined PETA. And then I actually saw all their politics, and then I was just blown away.

I'm still very much disgusted by people wearing fursuits. :D

re: #83 Soap_Man

Well, I would be just as interested in it were Manning. The guy is such a dork, I'd be surprised he even has sex. :)

ahahahahaha :D I'd be interested! I wouldn't think it'd get the same coverage.

(semi-off-topic, I love watching Monday Night Football for all the unintentional sexual euphemisms the commentators let fly with)

re: #84 sattv4u2

And I expect it's going to cost him. I also think he deserves a chance to make things right, and I'm still going to want to see him reach the golfing heights he's set for himself.

re: #87 laZardo

I'm still very much disgusted by people wearing fursuits. :D

My costume birdhead is not a fursuit! It's just a stylized foam head with EL wire so the eyes glow. ^_^

re: #86 Bagua

He is referencing the IPCC. The predictions for Africa are quite dire.

What price should they accept for suicide?

OK, let's say that an accurate prediction. What would it take in reductions from us to prevent that?

re: #70 sattv4u2

It didn't become an issue until the affairs and mistresses came out. That's true. But upon it coming out he's compared to OJ? Give me a fucking break! There's nothing to compare. Except for one not so minor detail. He's obviously black and she's obviously white. That's the dog whistle I'm talking about. He fucked around on his wife. That's a cross cultural reality that's not too hard to miss. OJ murdered his wife. That's a big fucking difference. So to compare him to OJ is, once again, to say something more than what the circumstances warrant. By the way, that last sentence was my 'really nice way' of of saying what I really think!

Where's Cato? I think I owe him a beer.

re: #88 WindUpBird

ahahahahaha :D I'd be interested! I wouldn't think it'd get the same coverage.

(semi-off-topic, I love watching Monday Night Football for all the unintentional sexual euphemisms the commentators let fly with)

There are few things better than watching MNF when the game is a blowout. Since they can't really talk about the action on the field, they (especially Jaworski) just go on and on about whatever bullshit that pops into their heads.

Well, with that, I need to go to bed. Goodnight everyone.

re: #94 Soap_Man

Nighty!

The sensible right wing is now called the unaffiliated independent voter.

I should go to bed. It's late and I'm pissed. And that's never a good combination.

re: #92 Irenicum

The "comparison" to OJ is moronic. What I was talking to was your #47 (I think this is typical white guy reaction to a black guy who has a history of being involved with white women) which I stated was wrong too, in as I stated it was not a secret that he is married to a white woman all this time with no mention of it. If a third of the women were Asian, a third were black and a third were white he would still have the same problems and the same media scrutiny becuase of who HE is, not who he slept with

re: #96 Bob Levin

The sensible right wing is now called the unaffiliated independent voter.

It's pretty much true! More than one of my right-wing friends voted for Obama because of Palin.

re: #85 WindUpBird

Rage sarc aside though, I did say I was concerned that the unions are becoming the machines they strove to fight. There's a balance between favorable conditions for workers in business...and favorable conditions for businesses to hire workers.

re: #98 sattv4u2

Cool. Thanks for the reply.

re: #100 laZardo

Rage sarc aside though, I did say I was concerned that the unions are becoming the machines they strove to fight. There's a balance between favorable conditions for workers in business...and favorable conditions for businesses to hire workers.

They are machines. It is a machine designed to fight another machine. Like Gundam. :D

When there are no unions there are no checks on power for workers. I don't believe unions = good, corporations = bad, I believe that pressure on both sides is good for people. Right now unions are very very weak compared to how they have been in the past.

re: #99 WindUpBird

Also look at the poll numbers. I suspect many who disapprove of the President's policies have a basic understanding of economics in the real world (goodbye Mr. Keynes), and understand that international politics moves with a little more force than love sweet love.

re: #98 sattv4u2

I don't mean to go off, but this is one of my "button" issues. In case it wasn't already obvious! Racism, sexism, abuse of the developmentally disabled and the mentally ill, and the infirm, all get me fired up beyond words. Personal experience in each has sensitized me quite a bit. G'nite all.

re: #103 Bob Levin

You're not one of those Austrian School guys, are you? ;-)

Every time I log on I learn something. So--today's lesson. What's the Austrian School?

re: #104 Irenicum

I don't mean to go off, but this is one of my "button" issues. In case it wasn't already obvious! Racism, sexism, abuse of the developmentally disabled and the mentally ill, and the infirm, all get me fired up beyond words. Personal experience in each has sensitized me quite a bit. G'nite all.

My other line of work besides art and vidya games is working with the developmentally disabled and the mentally ill, so yeah, cheers. ^_^

(And the OJ comparison isn't just dogwhistle racism, it's Klansman racism)

re: #106 Bob Levin

Every time I log on I learn something. So--today's lesson. What's the Austrian School?

I'm just a layman, here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Basically Austrian School is mega hyper Ron Paul orthodoxy.

re: #102 WindUpBird

It seems their weakness probably comes from their entanglement in bureaucracy then, with a lot of foreign and domestic investment heading toward traditionally "anti-union" parts of the country.

There are a lot of regulations in place to provide these checks, and unions need to be fighting to make them more efficient to provide favorable conditions for businesses and workers to thrive.

re: #109 laZardo

They're also weakened by the tech economy and the rise of contract workers as a norm. Most of my friends have multiple sources of part-time income to make ends meet, and are often screwed over in ways that no union would allow. Work for 2 hours! Go home for 2 hours! Come back and work for 2 hours! L&I claims are threatened with firing by management! Shifts change at the drop of a hat! That sort of thing.

re: #108 WindUpBird

Based on the entry, no, I'm not there. I do think that economic interventions should be measured by speed, that is, do they increase or decrease general economic activity. It seems as if the Austrians have categories of activity that are a priori good or bad. Right now the President's policies seem to be slowing things down. I also think that the real engine of an economy is technological innovation. Regular folks need room to think and be creative and develop new ways of doing things. I'm hoping some bright guys are working on ways to completely change our energy infrastructure. If those products are developed, hello recovery.

re: #110 WindUpBird

They're also weakened by the tech economy and the rise of contract workers as a norm. Most of my friends have multiple sources of part-time income to make ends meet, and are often screwed over in ways that no union would allow. Work for 2 hours! Go home for 2 hours! Come back and work for 2 hours! L&I claims are threatened with firing by management! Shifts change at the drop of a hat! That sort of thing.

I'm not up to speed on American labor laws (currently living in Manila) but I suspect that being 'part-time' may have something do to with it. When you have so many people taking part-time jobs, they're gonna end up being shuffled around.

As far as I'm told though, part-time is meant only for a temporary basis, e.g. paying for college until one can get a full-time job on the degree. I would think unions would focus more on the full-time aspect.

Unions have to fight against years of Labor/Management history to become viable. And I like unions. My dad was a union guy, and they did a magnificent job of helping him in his later years, retired needing medical care. There are two types of skilled workers--manufacturing (tough fight because management can just pick up and go overseas), and skilled construction and repair. Over the years American culture has disparaged the guys who get dirty for a living--wanting to Ward Cleaver the nation. Those craftsmen have to stand up for themselves and assert the worth and dignity of what they do. This can be done, because things still need to be built, and things will always break down. Of course, just like all businesses ( because that's what they will become), you have to make sure your price of service is enough to keep your guys working.

re: #112 laZardo

I'm not up to speed on American labor laws (currently living in Manila) but I suspect that being 'part-time' may have something do to with it. When you have so many people taking part-time jobs, they're gonna end up being shuffled around.

As far as I'm told though, part-time is meant only for a temporary basis, e.g. paying for college until one can get a full-time job on the degree. I would think unions would focus more on the full-time aspect.

The thing is, full timers for years are being shuffled to part time, so they don't have to pay benefits, so they can move people around and give them impossible shifts. And the health care debate comes full circle. ;-)

re: #113 Bob Levin

Unions have to fight against years of Labor/Management history to become viable. And I like unions. My dad was a union guy, and they did a magnificent job of helping him in his later years, retired needing medical care. There are two types of skilled workers--manufacturing (tough fight because management can just pick up and go overseas), and skilled construction and repair. Over the years American culture has disparaged the guys who get dirty for a living--wanting to Ward Cleaver the nation. Those craftsmen have to stand up for themselves and assert the worth and dignity of what they do. This can be done, because things still need to be built, and things will always break down. Of course, just like all businesses ( because that's what they will become), you have to make sure your price of service is enough to keep your guys working.

As a digital craftsman, I feel like I have way more in common with those guys than I do white collar workers. The one time I worked in a white collar environment, I hated it like poison. I'm mostly self-employed though, so I'm not going to be part of a union.

re: #113 Bob Levin

Of course, just like all businesses ( because that's what they will become), you have to make sure your price of service is enough to keep your guys working.

...and low enough to allow customers to afford it, and to beat the competition. All the high wages in the world don't do an industry any good when they price themselves out of the market.

re: #116 SixDegrees

...and low enough to allow customers to afford it, and to beat the competition. All the high wages in the world don't do an industry any good when they price themselves out of the market.

I'm waaay more concerned about abusive working conditions than high wages.

re: #114 WindUpBird

You have a real point there. The workers you describe never even came close to a union, and they are definitely at the mercy of employers trying to cut expenses. When that happens on a full scale (defined as reaching New York), that's when the Daily Show and the New York Times begins to notice economic problems and are not inclined to blame things on the previous administration. Outside of New York, you've got to feel for these folks, living in the most expensive place in the world, over the top mortgages, kids in private school--that's the kind of stress that will break a body.

So this is where the sensible right wing is. Once a few candidates figure this out, the rest will follow. My computer is getting an automatic restart soon, so I'd better log off.

re: #117 WindUpBird

I hear you, but you can't fix asshole. Those working conditions come from the classic boss you don't want to have.

re: #44 Racer X

Beck Compares Tiger To OJ Simpson

[Video]Why is right wing radio freaking out over Tiger?

Because he's a black man married to a white woman? Limbaugh, Beck and the Birchers are fundamentally racists at their core, so it isn't hard to see this as simply flogging their own bigotry.

Note, too, the connection with OJ in this regard.

I'm betting it would take less than ten minutes to turn up a dozen instances of other celebrity philandering that's taken place over the last year, and that you won't find so much as a peep out of any of these troglodytes as long as their racial purity isn't threatened.

re: #117 WindUpBird

I'm waaay more concerned about abusive working conditions than high wages.

A valid argument when unions really got off the ground in the early 20th century. Nowadays, at least in the United States, not so much, as much of what the unions originally demanded has been codified into plain old law.

Conditions today are not even remotely like those in existence when the Battle of the Overpass took place, just down the road from here.

I can well understand being turned off by alot of the over the top discourse esp. on the internet and some radio - though I'd say that is a problem on both the left and the right. The present populist political culture does not foster much rational discussion. I miss the caliber of someone like Bill Buckley who on Firing Line engaged in lively and respectful debate with all points of view. But it seems evident you also have plenty of decent and rational conservatives.

As for Pat Buchanan - I am not happy that he appears as a commentator on the "conservative" perspective on TV and Radio but inability to muster any significant conservative votes in his presidential run and his own alienation from the contemporary GOP is I think significant.

What is Charles position on moving the GITMO detainees trials from military to civilian court?

re: #124 sandbox

Don't know Charles's position - but it seems to me to reflect a view that 9/11 was a criminal/legal issue rather than what the Jihadists themselves thought it was - an act of war.

re: #7 Charles

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

Then if I may ask, what do you consider yourself?

It is a good article and being a former 'Jewish Republican' I wonder what my friends are calling themselves now?
Probably Democrats?
/

re: #21 McSpiff

I was a bit surprised to see Dick Cheney listed. Thought he was still well thought of on the right.

I like him and his wife as personalities. Coming from the same part of the country as him maybe it's the hometown boy did good type of liking. I don't know and it doesn't matter anymore.

re: #3 Sharmuta

Me too. Seems those who thought they were part of the right are no longer wanted. They left us, and we're not sorry to part company, but it's as if we still feel the need to cling to a label whose current meaning is so far from what we agree with, I have to wonder why I want that label, and if Independent isn't just as good a label as anything else.

Independent? To me that is a bottomless pit because independent means I am grounded in nothing.

I am a conservative on most issues. But I just may just sit out a few elections for the first time in my life.

re: #8 cenotaphium

Breasts and wings? Surely you're talking about bats?

Charles starts a serious thread and here come the boob boys. Mind yourselves :)

re: #11 Racer X

Agreed.

Me also.

re: #13 Teh Flowah

Less than a changed mind, sans global warming, it seems more like people finally grasped the possibility that you can think radical Islam is dangerous and should be confronted without being a raving right wing racist who hats science.

Shocker.

Remember Scoop Jackson? Or Barry Goldwater? Now there were men I admired and still do.

re: #128 Blueheron

Hi Blueheron--
I've been enjoying your comments because they reflect views that are diametrically opposed to mine. But it's obvious you've got a good heart and excellent manners--things not commonly found on the internet.

But you like Dick and Lynn Cheney's personalities??? At least we can agree on screen names.

re: #27 Soap_Man

re: #7 Charles

I'm not trying to get the right back on course. I'm gone. They're going off the cliff without me.

Well, trying or not, you play a roll in a certain way. The conservatives on this site are given a place to discuss the admirable aspects of conservatism, and may change the minds of a liberal or two. And, likewise, a liberal may change the mind of a conservative. (At least on an issue or two. And even if minds aren't changed, it shows there both sides can have good ideas and leads us all to defend our positions and challenge our own reasoning.)

But more importantly, the criticisms of the whacko right-wing leaders damages their credibility. It forces them to defend their positions, and they often do a poor job of it, further exposing their hate-filled rhetoric.

I am grateful for the opportunity to be a conservative amongst bright people. Things were getting a little thin 'out there'.

I never studied political science, or social science, but it seems to me that democracy as we have it requires at least two principles to function well.

One is that people generally have a consensus in most areas and see themselves as the same people. The other is that they recognize that they do need to compromise in many cases, and do not see any issue as a "winner take all" competition.

However, when one side takes the position that they do not have positions to negotiate but have principles that are not negotiable, then can the system function as before?

re: #133 blueherron

Hi Blueheron--
I've been enjoying your comments because they reflect views that are diametrically opposed to mine. But it's obvious you've got a good heart and excellent manners--things not commonly found on the internet.

But you like Dick and Lynn Chaney's personalities??? At least we can agree on screen names.

Thank you so much for the kind words. You don't know how much I appreciate them :)

As to the Cheneys. Mrs. Cheney is a brilliant woman and I have always enjoyed interviews she has given.
The Mr. he is to me the type of westerner I grew up with. Admittedly they are a dying breed but his personality type is familiar to me.

I never paid any attention to the Haliburton charge leveled at Cheney because it was always just that. No facts. No information. Just the epitaph 'Haliburton'. And because I liked Bush and Cheney I certainly was disinclined to search out what nasty deeds Mr. Cheney had done to earn the 'Haliburton' epitaph.
My bad if I missed something but in the Bush first few years I was happy with the administration's performance.
I am like Charles in my discontent but unlike him I am searching for where I will land.

re: #136 Blueheron

Talking to yourself?

re: #135 Naso Tang

Well stated, but real depressing. I think the system is functioning (the health care bill will pass, taxes are paid, elections are held); if not up to full capacity. But I don't know if a democracy can function smoothly. I don't think the US has ever been one big get-along gang.

re: #137 Naso Tang

Talking to yourself?

No! Our screen names are nearly identical only mine is spelled with one 'r'. :))

re: #139 Blueheron

No! Our screen names are nearly identical only mine is spelled with one 'r'. :))

You spell it correctly. I'm a good speller, it's just that my real name is spelled with two Rs, and I wanted to get across the fact that my views are liberal (blue). Very obscure, I know, but until Blueheron showed up, I never had to explain the misspelling.

re: #139 Blueheron

No! Our screen names are nearly identical only mine is spelled with one 'r'. :))

I didn't see that. Could make for some interesting situations from time to time.

re: #140 blueherron

You spell it correctly. I'm a good speller, it's just that my real name is spelled with two Rs, and I wanted to get across the fact that my views are liberal (blue). Very obscure, I know, but until Blueheron showed up, I never had to explain the misspelling.

I like blue herons which is why I picked it for my screen name. Darned 'puter should have told me I couldn't have it and to pick something else :)

re: #46 Sharmuta

He's not white.

I'm trying to think of a less damning explanation, but I really am coming up blank. Tiger Woods is not exactly a liberal icon.

(ever met a card-carrying Republican with a PETA membership?)

Yeah- me.
Well, almost.

Everyone must be properly sorted. Stay within the lines!

re: #10 solomonpanting

Read here: [Link: www.adl.org...]

re: #67 WindUpBird

That's makes another one of us. Never cared for Cindy Sheehan (though I do sympathize with her loss not her politics) or Code Pink or Al Sharpton, etc.

re: #7 Charles

But then where do you fall on issues. I understand the bringing awareness to stupidity on the right, but where do you end up? Just let the left stay in power, or isn't it our duty to salvage the good ideas from the right. Abandon the idiocy from the right, but not the original Milton Friedman, Buckley Sr. conservativie ideals that were not averse to robust debate. It's still has to be some semblance of the right that keeps government from getting too big, just not anti-gov't in general.

I guess the big question is, ok you broke from the right, but what now? permanent majority for the left to spend us into the ground, even faster than the idiot Republicans did?

re: #145 limewash

Read here: [Link: www.adl.org...]

After reading your link and noting references to anger, kooky conspiracy theories and the horrendous murder of three policemen attributed to someone "allegedly" influenced by white supremacist ideologies, I'll restate my question:

What is this increase in violence?

re: #148 solomonpanting

Man punches 65 man at health care rally [Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

Man get's finger bitten off at heath care ralley
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

James Von Brunn (birther) and shooter at the Holocaust Museum
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

AA Military female reservist attached at Cracker Barrel in front of 7 yr old daughter and attacker flung racial slurs as he beat her.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Should I go on? How about the call to violence by these groups?
Newsmax call to a 'coup' to handle Obama problem: [Link: mediamatters.org...]

A Florida Republican candidate for Congress became the target of outrage Friday after it was revealed that at a local shooting range he opened fire on a target bearing the initials of his Democratic opponent, Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

[Link: rawstory.com...]

I could go on if you like

How about tea party wanted to burn image of Democratic Rep. Tom Perriello
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

re: #24 avanti

That saddens me, even as a leftie, I feel the need for a strong and rational opposition. I understand your feelings, but hope someone will step forward for a course change.

I wouldn't call myself a leftie, but I feel sorta the same way. The only thing that scares me more than the current Republican party is the (however slight) chance their lemming-like walk over the cliff will leaves us with a one-party system. Even if it's a party I agree with.

Then again, just look at the health care debacle. The Democrats would probably splinter into a thousand tiny personal kingdoms the moment that happens. So maybe it's for the better.

They seem to be calling for a reasoned discussion on climate change. Let's forget about the ridiculous charges that the right-wing is to blame for the lack of a reasoned discussion on this, and set the stage for having that discussion.

How can there be a discussion between the orthodox view and the heteroox views? Assemble the top scientific experts on both sides, and let them have at it, in writing of course.

When you see who objects to doing that, then you get the accurate picture of who is blocking such a reasoned discussion.