FactCheck.org: ‘Climategate’ Claims Far Off the Mark

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Environment • Thu Dec 10, 2009 at 7:26 pm PST • Views: 470

FactCheck.org takes an in-depth look at “Climategate,” and notices something: there’s no “there” there.

No conspiracies, no cover-ups, no fakery. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

In late November 2009, more than 1,000 e-mails between scientists at the Climate Research Unit of the U.K.’s University of East Anglia were stolen and made public by an as-yet-unnamed hacker. Climate skeptics are claiming that they show scientific misconduct that amounts to the complete fabrication of man-made global warming. We find that to be unfounded:

The messages, which span 13 years, show a few scientists in a bad light, being rude or dismissive. An investigation is underway, but there’s still plenty of evidence that the earth is getting warmer and that humans are largely responsible.

Some critics say the e-mails negate the conclusions of a 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, but the IPCC report relied on data from a large number of sources, of which CRU was only one.

E-mails being cited as “smoking guns” have been misrepresented. For instance, one e-mail that refers to “hiding the decline” isn’t talking about a decline in actual temperatures as measured at weather stations. These have continued to rise, and 2009 may turn out to be the fifth warmest year ever recorded. The “decline” actually refers to a problem with recent data from tree rings.

And here’s a pop quiz for LGF readers — who said this?

“It appears from the details of the scandal that there is no relationship whatsoever between human activities and climate change.”

Was it:

1) Sarah Palin
2) Anthony Watts
3) James Inhofe
4) Saudi Arabian climate negotiator Mohammad Al-Sabban

And how can you tell the difference?

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533 comments

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1 nanook37  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:28:39pm

I guess E - all of the above. Nice that FactCheck took a look at this

2 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:28:42pm

Woop! My Grandma will actually believe it if it's on factcheck.org.

3 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:29:34pm

Factcheck was an oasis in the election. Really well done.

4 Mark Pennington  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:30:21pm

Mohammad Al-Sabban!

5 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:31:21pm

3) James Inhofe

6 dwells38  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:31:37pm

I'm guessing all

7 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:31:40pm
Was it:

1) Sarah Palin
2) Anthony Watts
3) James Inhofe
4) Saudi Arabian climate negotiator Mohammad Al-Sabban

And how can you tell the difference?

I wouldn't hazard a guess before searching the exact phrase in google--and the Oracle of Google says the Saudi Arabian guy.

8 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:31:54pm

1) Sarah Palin

9 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:32:07pm
Anyone for some Arctic roll? Mystery as spiral blue light display hovers above Norway

What's blue and white, squiggly and suddenly appears in the sky?
If you know the answer, pop it on a postcard and send it to the people of Norway, where this mysterious light display baffled residents yesterday.
Speculation was increasing today that the display was the result of an embarrassing failed test launch of a jinxed new Russian missile.
The Bulava missile was test-fired from the Dmitry Donskoi submarine in the White Sea early on Wednesday but failed at the third stage, say newspapers in Moscow today.

Wicked cool image!

10 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:32:48pm

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

11 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:33:20pm

re: #9 Racer X

What has a blus tail, a spiral glow and a mushroom at it's end?

12 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:33:43pm

PIMF Blue tail!

13 dwells38  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:33:48pm

And how can you tell the difference?

Sarah wears the dress...oh wait the Saudi...

OK Sarah wears the TIGHT dress. :)

14 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:34:30pm

Man those last 2 paragraphs of the factcheck article are great. I just put that in an email to my grandma and family.

15 fizzlogic  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:35:03pm

Of course, FactCheck.org is a partisan leftwing site. As we will, no doubt, hear from reliable RW sources like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Mark Levin, or Sean Hannity.

16 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:35:47pm

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

No, it's just regular pathetic. What's utterly pathetic is how you can substitute "evolution" for "climate change" and your sentence remains otherwise true.

sigh

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:36:41pm

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

You think that would be a wake up call, but I guess not.

18 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:37:06pm

5) Ron Paul!

19 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:37:23pm

re: #16 Aceofwhat?

Great point.

20 bosforus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:38:22pm

Catch a falling temperature, put it in your pocket, save it for a GW debate.

21 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #16 Aceofwhat?

No, it's just regular pathetic. What's utterly pathetic is how you can substitute "evolution" for "climate change" and your sentence remains otherwise true.

sigh

If only we could get Darwin's emails!

22 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:40:17pm

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

Yes, but we're their bitches--hooked on their oil and all. You'd think there was a national security angle in there to develop our own energy resources. Putting the kind of national effort that went into the Manhattan Project into an effort on energy independence, and directing those resources on non-CO2 forms of energy--that would be some kind of energy grand compromise I was hoping Obama would try to get done. That would actually result in "green jobs". What's been done so far has been...well, nothing.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:41:15pm

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

Oh, BTW, good news on the religiocon front--Rick Warren has condemned the Uganda bill.

24 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:42:15pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

If only we could get Darwin's emails!

Ask and ye shall receive!

25 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:43:51pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, BTW, good news on the religiocon front--Rick Warren has condemned the Uganda bill.

He had to. He got caught.

I'm not impressed.

26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:45:05pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

They were all deleted. That is why there is no record of a single email that Darwin ever sent.

27 Bacchus's daddy  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:46:40pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

If only we could get Darwin's emails!

Almost finished with "Origin of Species"- the dude was amazing. Had an encyclopedic knowledge of biology and taxonomy. His "insight" came to him almost 20 years before publication of the book- he spent the interim engaged in exhaustive experiments with plants, correspondence with other noted biologists, etc. For anyone who's not read "Origin..", even if you think you know everything about the science of natural selection/evolution- Darwin will surprise you with some of the insights and observations he had that led hm to his concluson.

/no I have not been reading an edition with an intro by Kirck Cameron's buddy. :)

28 EE  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:46:44pm

When Mike Mann indicated that he wasn't comfortable complying with the Freedom of Information Act, was a crime committed by flouting the law?
When CRU people were advised to destroy emails in which people exercised their rights under the UK's Freedom of Information Act, was there conspiracy to violate the law?
Were the requests for information under the Freedom of Information Act honored, or weren't they? This is a legal issue, and not something for politics.
When NASA refused, and still refuses, to honor a request for information under the US Freedom of Information Act, is there a violation of the law? Is there an effort to deny those seeking information under the FOIA their legal rights? This is all information generated by these agencies using public money, and the public is entitled to the information according to the Freedom of Information Act, so what has been happening, and is it criminal? This needs to be settled in a court of law, not by some political group.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:47:03pm

re: #25 Charles

He had to. He got caught.

I'm not impressed.

Suppose so. Better against than for, I think, though.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:47:19pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I know a lot of Christians. Of those that I know well? 100% of them would say, "Have you lost your fucking mind?!?" to the whole Uganda thingy.

31 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:47:24pm

Here they come again.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:47:28pm

re: #26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They were all deleted. That is why there is no record of a single email that Darwin ever sent.

Including all the ones he sent to Hitler?

/

33 srjh  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:48:07pm

5) Chuck Norris?

34 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:48:08pm

Fackcheck.org it clearly a site created by liberals and run by liberals to bring fascism to America. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

/ (Is the tag necessary?)

35 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:48:20pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, BTW, good news on the religiocon front--Rick Warren has condemned the Uganda bill.

Clearly he had the ability to help dial back the extreme nature of that anti-gay bill but did not due so until pressured. Better late than never, I suppose.

36 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:48:36pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

If only we could get Darwin's emails!

Wrong guy - I think you're talking about the famous "Mendel-gate" /

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:48:45pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

And Copernicus.

38 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:49:01pm

re: #28 EE

None of this changes the actual science, BTW.

39 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:49:01pm

re: #28 EE

Does it bother you at all to find yourself on the same side as Saudi Arabia?

40 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:49:05pm

re: #28 EE

There are some who use the FOIA to harass the people they see as political opponents.

41 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:49:45pm

re: #27 Bacchus's daddy


He was a class act, too, which is the only part of the 'nontroversy' that had any traction with me. It was clear that no one was twisting or falsifying data. It was also clear that some of the scientists are pricks.

It's so hard to read Darwin's letters and not empathize with him. Very warm, classy scientist.

42 Bacchus's daddy  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:52:11pm

re: #41 Aceofwhat?

He was a class act, too, which is the only part of the 'nontroversy' that had any traction with me. It was clear that no one was twisting or falsifying data. It was also clear that some of the scientists are pricks.

It's so hard to read Darwin's letters and not empathize with him. Very warm, classy scientist.

Agreed! He also bends over backwards in his book to address criticisms that had arisen since the theory had been first made known, and very respectfully addresses those with whom he disagrees.

43 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:53:34pm

re: #34 Soap_Man

Fackcheck.org it clearly a site created by liberals and run by liberals to bring fascism to America. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

/ (Is the tag necessary?)

Morning Soap!

44 EE  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:54:04pm

That is the excuse given to flout the FOIA. But then change the law if it needs changing. If we have a law, how can an agency just insist that it is not going to follow it?
Another interesting thing is that NASA has on two occasions reportedly had to change its data because of a challenge, according to what has been reported. So why do they refuse to give the same person access again to their data, when he has already proven his ability to find errors?

These agencies insist on not being audited by anyone who can correct their errors.

45 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:54:27pm

How bout them Browns!

46 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:54:42pm

re: #22 BryanS

Putting the kind of national effort that went into the Manhattan Project into an effort on energy independence, and directing those resources on non-CO2 forms of energy--that would be some kind of energy grand compromise I was hoping Obama would try to get done.

Different situation and challenge. We know pretty much what we need to do to dramatically reduce carbon emissions, the difficult part is the cost and time required for the massive infrastructure projects in every city. The Manhattan project was more like a science project on a grand scale.

47 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:54:51pm

re: #45 NJDhockeyfan

How bout them Browns!

RACSIT!

48 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:54:54pm

I don't know why I even bother asking.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:55:04pm

re: #44 EE

That is the excuse given to flout the FOIA. But then change the law if it needs changing. If we have a law, how can an agency just insist that it is not going to follow it?
Another interesting thing is that NASA has on two occasions reportedly had to change its data because of a challenge, according to what has been reported. So why do they refuse to give the same person access again to their data, when he has already proven his ability to find errors?

These agencies insist on not being audited by anyone who can correct their errors.

Do you hassle all branches of the U.S. military to release their documents to for factchecking?

50 fizzlogic  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:56:00pm

re: #16 Aceofwhat?

On a somewhat related note, what does The Family, Uganda, and Iran have in common?

51 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:56:00pm

re: #28 EE

I've always respected you, and it's upsetting to see you promote these obfuscating arguments that do nothing to alter the actual data. I hope that soon you will start to look at what Charles is pointing out with all of the videos and other sources he's provided to show what a sham the denial industry to handing you. I'll offer up The Discovery of Global Warming in the hopes you'll read a reliable source.

52 bosforus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:56:32pm

re: #47 laZardo

RACSIT!

Rac-sit. I say we go with it.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:58:52pm

re: #50 trendsurfer

On a somewhat related note, what does The Family, Uganda, and Iran have in common?

I don't even dare ask.

54 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:58:52pm

re: #50 trendsurfer

On a somewhat related note, what does The Family, Uganda, and Iran have in common?

i'm not sure, but if i were to guess it would be something unkind + something homosexual...

55 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 7:59:47pm

EE- Please give 8 minutes and 46 seconds of your life to this video- if this doesn't convince you that you are being lied to, I don't know what will

56 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:01:01pm

re: #46 Mich-again

Different situation and challenge. We know pretty much what we need to do to dramatically reduce carbon emissions, the difficult part is the cost and time required for the massive infrastructure projects in every city. The Manhattan project was more like a science project on a grand scale.

OK--call it Manhattan Project meets interstate highway construction. Some of both types of projects would be needed. The fact is, green energy is not economical currently. High oil prices have done a lot to help spur new research and development, but it's still not yet there. And, we need the infrastructure. That, by the way, would have also created a bunch of jobs.

57 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:01:17pm

I always think of Charles Manson when I see "The Family".

58 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:01:26pm

re: #44 EE

If there's anything that you can bank on, it's this: if someone visible can be sued, they will be sued. So why don't you let the FOIA lawsuits work themselves out while you go click on Sharmuta's link, which actually pertains to the subject at hand. As opposed to, say, your post. Which does not. Pertain.

59 political lunatic  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:01:51pm

I think some of the right wing climate change deniers would love to set everything scientists have discovered on cleaner, cheaper energy back 50 years so that the oil companies can pay them millions every year. For these guys, there is no such thing as too much money. Of course, the rest are religious nutjobs.

60 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:02:02pm

re: #57 marjoriemoon

It reminds me of him, too.

61 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:02:04pm

I don't have any problem with scientists who want to raise questions, argue validity of data or question analysis in the science involved in the study of climate change. That is what peer review is all about. But if a scientist spouts BS while peer-reviewing another scientist's work, then he loses standing as a "peer" and he's just another dummy with an opinion and nothing to back it up.

62 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:03:26pm

re: #50 trendsurfer

On a somewhat related note, what does The Family, Uganda, and Iran have in common?

They hate pigs.

/

63 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:03:50pm

re: #59 political lunatic

huh?

64 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:04:55pm

re: #56 BryanS

OK--call it Manhattan Project meets interstate highway construction. Some of both types of projects would be needed. The fact is, green energy is not economical currently. High oil prices have done a lot to help spur new research and development, but it's still not yet there. And, we need the infrastructure. That, by the way, would have also created a bunch of jobs.

Yes. And the key is for a while at least oil is going to be the main energy source and we should use revenues it generates to pay for the new infrastructure. Every project would reduce the use of oil incrementally, lowering the price and enabling more reinvestment.

65 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:05:53pm

re: #57 marjoriemoon

I always think of Charles Manson when I see "The Family".

I think of Carlo Gambino and Joseph Bonanno.

66 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:06:19pm

re: #65 NJDhockeyfan

I think of Carlo Gambino and Joseph Bonanno.

And executions during baptisms.

67 srjh  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:07:31pm

re: #44 EE

Alleged Compliance or non-compliance with FOIA or not, there is a significant amount of material out there that is freely accessible by the general public. It all points to the same conclusion that the IPCC has reached.

68 fizzlogic  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:08:12pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #54 Aceofwhat?

Well, I'm not really sure all of The Family want to see the gays put to death. But of course they do want to see that we maintain the institutions and traditions that made our country great.

Thank God (or the Flying Spagetti Monster) we don't burn witches anymore.

:)

69 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:09:40pm

re: #64 Mich-again

Yes. And the key is for a while at least oil is going to be the main energy source and we should use revenues it generates to pay for the new infrastructure. Every project would reduce the use of oil incrementally, lowering the price and enabling more reinvestment.

It's sad this is not happening right now. Obama could have found a way to get this kind of initiative going, since there is a real way to key off natural priorities of both the left and the right. Instead, he pushes cap and trade, only taxing carbon. The Stimulus bill could have contained a lot more for energy projects.

70 EE  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:10:34pm

re: #39 Charles
Charles, I am NOT on the same side as Saudi Arabia.
I would like to see a large tax imposed on gasoline, so that we can become less dependent on Saudi oil.
I would like to see the development of our nuclear power again so that we can become less dependent on Saudi oil.
I would like to see the advancement of clean uses of coal (we have supplies for hundreds of years, they say) so that we are less dependent on petroleum. There are modern marvels involving the clean use of coal.

Here is what I said on climate change: I would like to see an honest debate between the orthodox school of carbocentrists, who attribute all climate change throughout the tens of millennia to carbon dioxide variations caused by humans, versus the heterodoxists, who have all manner of theories concerning the causes of climate change throughout the ages and now. And I would like to see it in writing, by the top scientists in their field. I am an agnostic on this, I have no idea whose ideas are correct, but I think that it would help restore the public's confidence in science if the whole matter were de-politicised, and if scientists behaved in the manner appropriate to scientists.

BTW I have to agree to disagree with you about the behavior of the CRU scientists being proper or improper. There is a host of material in this sordid scandal that could be used in an ethics course on science. There are ethics courses that are included in engineering curricula, and I see a strong need for professional ethics to be taught to science majors. And the sloppy work reported in Harry's Read_Me file is just atrocious. The loss of the invaluable tapes that were archived is also atrocious.

I have seen a medical discussion in a medical journal, where the two sides go at it, concerning appropriate diagnosis and treatment. Nothing wrong with admitting that there is a difference of opinion. It might be helpful to have such a debate between the climatologists with their various theories on the causes of climate change.

71 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:10:58pm

re: #68 trendsurfer

Why? You feeling wiccan?

//

72 BryanS  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:11:21pm

re: #67 srjh

Alleged Compliance or non-compliance with FOIA or not, there is a significant amount of material out there that is freely accessible by the general public. It all points to the same conclusion that the IPCC has reached.

And the CRU also apparently did not release some data that they had contractual restrictions preventing it.

73 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:11:30pm

re: #64 Mich-again

Speaking of Manhattan, there's a lot of promise in lithium-ion electric technology to create transportation comparable to today's gas-powered ones.

Now if only I could patent the plug-in spark hydrant.

/thought of that 35 seconds ago.

74 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:12:11pm

re: #70 EE

Sharmuta- EE didn't click. Can lead the camels to water, but can't make them drink. sigh.

75 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:12:49pm

re: #70 EE

The debate you are asking for has already occurred.

76 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:13:03pm

re: #70 EE

I'm not saying I agree with you about this or that but I feel it should be fine to state your position as long as you aren't being rude or insulting. I think you did both and for that I upding you even though it's probably not the popular action.

77 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:13:36pm

re: #68 trendsurfer

re: #54 Aceofwhat?

Thank God (or the Flying Spagetti Monster) we don't burn witches anymore.

:)

If you are a witch, stay away from Saudi Arabia.

Riyadh: man to be decapitated for witchcraft

78 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:13:36pm

re: #70 EE

I am an agnostic on this, I have no idea whose ideas are correct

Perhaps you should click the link I gave you or click the video I posted, and get information from scientific sources, and not from people in bed with the Saudis. That's the first step in learning what is correct and what is not.

79 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:14:37pm

re: #76 Locker

I'm not saying I agree with you about this or that but I feel it should be fine to state your position as long as you aren't being rude or insulting. I think you did both and for that I upding you even though it's probably not the popular action.

It's not the honest questioning that I mind. It's the ignoring of helpful links provided by helpful lizards. How honest can the questioning be when you aren't willing to listen to the answers provided?

I understand better why Charles seems so fatigued sometimes.

80 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:14:42pm

re: #74 Aceofwhat?

I am hoping EE didn't see my comments while writing that long reply to Charles, so I'm hopeful yet... *fingers crossed*

81 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:14:45pm

re: #77 NJDhockeyfan

If you are a witch, stay away from Saudi Arabia.

Riyadh: man to be decapitated for witchcraft

Since it's a man, the technical term for it is wizardry. Or warlockdom.

/try getting me to appreciate life. q:

82 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:15:18pm

re: #73 laZardo

Speaking of Manhattan, there's a lot of promise in lithium-ion electric technology to create transportation comparable to today's gas-powered ones.

Coming at you live! (shameless Tesla reference)

Actually there is a brand new electric car battery plant being prepped about a mile from my house. Less as a crow flies.

83 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:15:56pm

re: #79 Aceofwhat?

Locker - said "you" instead of EE. i know you aren't questioning. pimf, sorry

84 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:16:04pm

re: #65 NJDhockeyfan

I saw John Gotti enter a NYC restaurant, many years ago. People kissed his ring, after they got up from the floor, when someone noticed his limo cruising the block. It was a different kind of experience!

85 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:16:34pm

re: #70 EE

I would like to see an honest debate between the orthodox school of carbocentrists, who attribute all climate change throughout the tens of millennia to carbon dioxide variations caused by humans,

Who is promoting that theory?

86 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:16:35pm

re: #70 EE

Charles, I am NOT on the same side as Saudi Arabia.

If the shoe fits. You're promoting exactly the same denialist garbage that Saudi Arabia is.

You may SAY that you have different motives for it, but the outcome is the same. Denial, obfuscation, and a lack of action on one of the most important issues humanity faces.

87 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:16:50pm

re: #71 Aceofwhat?

Why? You feeling wiccan?

//

Speaking of feeling a wiccan, where's Sal been?

88 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:16:57pm

re: #79 Aceofwhat?

It's not the honest questioning that I mind. It's the ignoring of helpful links provided by helpful lizards. How honest can the questioning be when you aren't willing to listen to the answers provided?

I understand better why Charles seems so fatigued sometimes.

Well I'd play devils advocate if he was new but he's an older registration so your point is valid. I still maintain that the post I up dinged was just a statement of position. It was a LONG statement of position but still. I just felt like the guy was saying how he felt, honestly.

What he does to educate himself will play itself out I would imagine...

89 Learned Mother of Zion  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:17:13pm

re: #81 laZardo

Since it's a man, the technical term for it is wizardry. Or warlockdom.

/try getting me to appreciate life. q:

Wouldn't that be a "Witch Doctor" or is that a physician who treats Wiccans?

90 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:18:03pm

re: #83 Aceofwhat?

Locker - said "you" instead of EE. i know you aren't questioning. pimf, sorry

It's cool man I know what you meant. All good.

91 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:18:04pm

re: #88 Locker

EE has always been a model of civility on LGF threads.

92 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:18:14pm

What is clean coal exactly?

93 srjh  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:18:47pm

re: #70 EE

Here is what I said on climate change: I would like to see an honest debate between the orthodox school of carbocentrists, who attribute all climate change throughout the tens of millennia to carbon dioxide variations caused by humans, versus the heterodoxists, who have all manner of theories concerning the causes of climate change throughout the ages and now.

Unfortunately you're never going to have such a debate - the former camp just doesn't exist, and you're creating a straw man.

To continue to pretend that climate scientists are evading scrutiny, avoiding criticism and hiding any attempt to justify their positions, in the age of Google is either ignorant or dishonest. Plug the average denialist talking point (a clear majority of which are mindbogglingly idiotic and convey a lack of understanding of even elementary science) into google and you'll receive endless rebuttals of the same tired nonsense time and time again.

94 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:19:23pm

NJDHockeyfan - can you believe the Browns did that?

i mean, the football team of color//

95 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:19:51pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

What is clean coal exactly?

This?

96 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:20:25pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

What is clean coal exactly?

Coal that no longer uses. Duh.

97 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:21:06pm

re: #95 Sharmuta

This?

heh...a girls best friend

98 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:21:08pm

re: #94 Aceofwhat?

NJDHockeyfan - can you believe the Browns did that?

i mean, the football team of color//

I haven't seen a Superbowl champion fall this fast in a while.

99 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:21:23pm

Hi folks.
Everything settled yet?

100 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:22:14pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

What is clean coal exactly?

"Clean coal" is another fraudulent scheme perpetrated by the coal industry, to trick people into doing nothing. The idea is that coal can be used to generate power without emitting CO2, by using a technique known as "carbon sequestration" that captures the CO2 and stores it instead of emitting it into the atmosphere.

The problem is -- the technology to actually do this does not exist, and won't exist for many years, if ever. But the coal industry spends millions of dollars on commercials about "clean coal" anyway, pretending that it's a real technology that they're using now.

It's another trick to get the public to think they're taking action.

101 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:22:28pm

re: #94 Aceofwhat?

NJDHockeyfan - can you believe the Browns did that?

i mean, the football team of color//

1-13 in the past...the Steelers are not so mighty again

102 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:22:47pm

re: #81 laZardo

Since it's a man, the technical term for it is wizardry. Or warlockdom.

/try getting me to appreciate life. q:

Just so you know they don't discriminate on the sex of witches...

International fury over Saudi Arabia's plans to behead woman accused of being a witch

103 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:23:34pm

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Just so you know they don't discriminate on the sex of witches...

International fury over Saudi Arabia's plans to behead woman accused of being a witch

Well, see, women are starting to get a break over there. Once they get a taste of equality...

104 EE  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:23:54pm

re: #86 Charles

No, I am not promoting lack of action. I have advocated at LGF for a geoengineering approach that looks at all the various ways to combat global warming, including stratospheric aerosols. Look at the pluses and minuses of each approach, and make a rational choice. A stratospheric aerosol does NOT depend on the carbocentric hypothesis.

105 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:24:49pm

coal needs to be scrubbed from any reasonable future energy use...extracting it alone is an unbelievable rape of the land...coal is dead, for now

106 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:24:51pm

re: #100 Charles

"Clean coal" is a another fraudulent scheme perpetrated by the coal industry, to trick people into doing nothing. The idea is that coal can be used to generate power without emitting CO2, by using a technique known as "carbon sequestration" that captures the CO2 and stores it instead of emitting it into the atmosphere.

The problem is -- the technology to actually do this does not exist, and won't exist for many years, if ever. But the coal industry spends millions of dollars on commercials about "clean coal" anyway, pretending that it's a real technology that they're using now.

It's another trick to get the public to think they're taking action.

Interesting! A better explanation than I could find anywhere.

Coal is dangerous to mine, outside of the pollution. I remember a few mine collapses last year was it? It's dangerous to the health of miners as well. I've never been a fan.

107 laZardo  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:25:24pm

Brb, lunch.

108 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:25:56pm

re: #104 EE

I'm still hoping you'll click a link.

109 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:26:16pm

re: #103 Aceofwhat?

Well, see, women are starting to get a break over there. Once they get a taste of equality...

the Saudis are animals, with tons of bling...despicable killers

110 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:26:41pm

re: #105 albusteve

coal needs to be scrubbed from any reasonable future energy use...extracting it alone is an unbelievable rape of the land...coal is dead, for now

Blasting giant holes in the sides of mountains is bad?

111 Walk Not So Softly  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:27:15pm

Just click the link EE and everything will be better. Back to the way you were before this silliness began. Just click the link...

112 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:28:13pm

re: #26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They were all deleted. That is why there is no record of a single email that Darwin ever sent.

Just wait, one will drift onto the shore in a bottle and it will be the one that verifies his recantation on his death bed.

113 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:28:29pm

re: #105 albusteve

coal needs to be scrubbed from any reasonable future energy use...extracting it alone is an unbelievable rape of the land...coal is dead, for now

Music AND coal! Could there be a trend forming??

114 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:28:32pm

Coal-fired electricity generation has declined recently, but it's still a big part of the US energy supply:

The drop in coal-fired generation was the largest absolute fuel-specific decline from August 2008 to August 2009 as it fell by 17,133 thousand megawatthours, or 9.4 percent.


Year-to-date, coal-fired plants contributed 44.4 percent of the Nation’s electric power. Nuclear plants contributed 20.4 percent, while 23.2 percent was generated at natural gas-fired plants. Of the 1.1 percent generated by petroleum-fired plants, petroleum liquids represented 0.7 percent, with the remainder from petroleum coke. Conventional hydroelectric power provided 7.1 percent of the total, while other renewables (biomass, geothermal, solar, and wind) and other miscellaneous energy sources generated the remaining 3.6 percent of electric power.
[Link: www.eia.doe.gov...]
115 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:29:19pm

re: #110 cliffster

Blasting giant holes in the sides of mountains is bad?

reducing mountains and the surrounding environment to an artificial bunch of lumps with little trees on them...it's just heartbreaking...whole watersheds disappear...southeast WV would blow your mind

116 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:30:10pm

re: #115 albusteve

But it makes for nice snowman eyes.

117 Buck  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:30:32pm

Not on the same side of the magic Kingdom, and I don't even want to discuss AGW.

However why are we avoiding the fact that in an email that the subject line was FOI (freedom of Information) was asking people to delete emails that were protected data?

No matter what else we can say about the emails... this is not "misrepresented". This alone is scandal. Add to that the fact that no one seemed shocked or argued against destroying protected information (emails), it means clearly that this group did not have a high standard for honesty.

AND what was in these emails that they did not want to expose to there Freedom of Information requests? What was so important that they would be willing to commit a crime to hide it? (Deleting protected information, in this case emails is a crime).

118 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:30:43pm

On subject of option #1, here is a brief excerpt of her appearance with Laura Ingraham. They are discussing whether she would debate Al Gore.

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I'll get clobbered because, you know, they don't want to listen to the facts. They don't want to listen to some reasonable voices in this. And that was proven with the publication of this op-ed, where they kind of got all we-weed up about it and wanted to call me and others deniers of changing weather patterns and climate conditions. Trying to make the issue into something that it is not.

INGRAHAM: But what if it's an Oxford-style, proper debate format. I mean, he's going to chicken out. I mean, if you challenge him to a debate, do you actually think he would accept it?

PALIN: I don't know, I don't know. Oh, he wouldn't want to lower himself, I think, to, you know, my level to debate little old Sarah Palin from Wasilla.

119 Learned Mother of Zion  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:31:26pm

re: #109 albusteve

the Saudis are animals, with tons of bling...despicable killers

The clan of Saud was a gang of caravan-robbing brigands who managed to convince the British that they should be the rulers of the Islamic Holy Cities, instead of the Hashemite Tribe who were descendants of Mohammed.

When the Brits realized their mistake, they just cut a chunk off the "Jewish National Homeland" so the Hashemite tribe would have their very own kingdom to rule over.

120 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:31:47pm

re: #112 b_sharp

Just wait, one will drift onto the shore in a bottle and it will be the one that verifies his recantation on his death bed.

This letter always makes me sad. he's describing an anonymous reviewer of Origin (from the link i provided above):

...the manner in which he drags in immortality, & sets the Priests at me & leaves me to their mercies, is base. He would on no account burn me; but he will get the wood ready & tell the black beasts how to catch me.

Sad in itself, and sadder that it reminds me of posts that i could find this minute if i had the stomach. sigh.

121 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:32:00pm

re: #114 jaunte

Coal-fired electricity generation has declined recently, but it's still a big part of the US energy supply:

We need to build more nuclear plants. We know how to build safe nuke plants and we are good at it. It's very clean energy.

122 dwells38  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:32:08pm

re: #101 albusteve

Our Bengals kicked their ass twice this year. Hard to believe yes. Even harder to believe the Browns ate their lunch tonight. They usually rule this division with their smash mouth tactics and admittedly at times creative offensive plays.

123 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:32:23pm

re: #117 Buck

It's hard to know how to comment on a speculation about what was in an illegally destroyed email that we only know about because of an illegal hack.

124 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:32:30pm

re: #119 Alouette

The clan of Saud was a gang of caravan-robbing brigands who managed to convince the British that they should be the rulers of the Islamic Holy Cities, instead of the Hashemite Tribe who were descendants of Mohammed.

When the Brits realized their mistake, they just cut a chunk off the "Jewish National Homeland" so the Hashemite tribe would have their very own kingdom to rule over.

whole cloth...thanks for that

125 fizzlogic  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:33:07pm

Heh. No, I'm not a wiccan or anything else. Although the allure of The Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry almost had me converted.

126 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:33:23pm

re: #28 EE

When Mike Mann indicated that he wasn't comfortable complying with the Freedom of Information Act, was a crime committed by flouting the law?
When CRU people were advised to destroy emails in which people exercised their rights under the UK's Freedom of Information Act, was there conspiracy to violate the law?
Were the requests for information under the Freedom of Information Act honored, or weren't they? This is a legal issue, and not something for politics.
When NASA refused, and still refuses, to honor a request for information under the US Freedom of Information Act, is there a violation of the law? Is there an effort to deny those seeking information under the FOIA their legal rights? This is all information generated by these agencies using public money, and the public is entitled to the information according to the Freedom of Information Act, so what has been happening, and is it criminal? This needs to be settled in a court of law, not by some political group.

How many requests does it take before you realize they are all specious?

Requests by Watts, who doesn't know a damn thing about stats or by McIntyre who can't remember that he already has the data, should be viewed with a little more suspicion than requests from another climatologist.

127 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:33:55pm

re: #118 Soap_Man

On subject of option #1, here is a brief excerpt of her appearance with Laura Ingraham. They are discussing whether she would debate Al Gore.

Sarah Palin is absolutely terrified at the idea of debating Al Gore on global warming. He would destroy her, and she knows it.

128 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:34:08pm

re: #122 dwells38

Our Bengals kicked their ass twice this year. Hard to believe yes. Even harder to believe the Browns ate their lunch tonight. They usually rule this division with their smash mouth tactics and admittedly at times creative offensive plays.

key injuries, no back up take their toll...plus Ben ain't exactly right...shit happens

129 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:34:27pm

re: #31 Charles

Here they come again.

Methinks you need to reload the bucket of water above the door a little more often.

130 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:35:17pm

Has Al Gore debated anyone on global warming?

131 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:36:37pm

re: #127 Charles

if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I'll get clobbered because, you know, they don't want to listen to the facts I don't have a fucking clue what the facts are.

Fixed that for her.

132 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:38:33pm

re: #118 Soap_Man

LOL I'd love it. She'd never do it in a million years, but now that she's opened it up for discussion, I think Gore should ask her! See what Sarah says!

133 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:39:31pm

re: #127 Charles

She's terrified of having a conversation with Katie Couric.

134 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:39:46pm

re: #130 NJDhockeyfan

Has Al Gore debated anyone on global warming?

I wonder if he too, is fundamentally opposed to nuclear energy...if not, where has he been?...hustling carbon credits?...for such a whiz bang guy he could surly do better than that

135 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:40:25pm

McIntyre's intent is not to audit the data to find errors that help NASA become more accurate, his intent is to find fault with as much as possible. His contributions so far have been a matter of probability, the more attempts he makes the more likely he'll get something right.

So far he's been wrong more often than not.

136 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:40:33pm

re: #127 Charles

Sarah Palin is absolutely terrified at the idea of debating Al Gore on global warming. He would destroy her, and she knows it.

He tore Ross Perot to ribbons on NAFTA back in 1993. Gore is very good at picking a group of points and hammering them home. That tactic would work well against Sarah Palin, who uses looks, and charm to try to ease past specifics if she's shaky on the facts (which is often).

137 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:41:18pm

Palin would win all the style points in a debate about anything with the Gorebot. He might be the one politician who is more of a human caricature than her.

Even if he had every fact on his side he could lose a debate as long as the winner is determined by a poll.

138 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:41:21pm

re: #132 marjoriemoon

LOL I'd love it. She'd never do it in a million years, but now that she's opened it up for discussion, I think Gore should ask her! See what Sarah says!

Oh yes, yes, Al is my new hero. Kick Palin's ass, Al. Oh yeah, baby!

139 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:42:14pm

re: #138 Spare O'Lake

Oh yes, yes, Al is my new hero. Kick Palin's ass, Al. Oh yeah, baby!

where two fools met

140 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:42:16pm

re: #132 marjoriemoon

LOL I'd love it. She'd never do it in a million years, but now that she's opened it up for discussion, I think Gore should ask her! See what Sarah says!

I can guess what she would do, and it would be the same thing she did with Biden: A long string of broad generalizations and non-sense cliches, all delivered in her famous folksy charms. The fan club would eat it up, not realizing/caring that she did not display any knowledge of the subject(s) at hand.

141 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:42:32pm

Who has made more money advocating for a cause he is personally tied to financially: Glen Beck or Al Gore.

142 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:42:53pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

He tore Ross Perot to ribbons on NAFTA back in 1993. Gore is very good at picking a group of points and hammering them home. That tactic would work well against Sarah Palin, who uses looks, and charm to try to ease past specifics if she's shaky on the facts (which is often).

That's like beating up little kid who's sleeping.

143 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:43:14pm

Al Gore on nuclear power:

Let's turn briefly to some proposed solutions. Nuclear power is making a big resurgence now, rebranded as a solution to climate change. What do you think?

I doubt nuclear power will play a much larger role than it does now.

Won't, or shouldn't?

Won't. There are serious problems that have to be solved, and they are not limited to the long-term waste-storage issue and the vulnerability-to-terrorist-attack issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument that both of those problems can be solved.

We still have other issues. For eight years in the White House, every weapons-proliferation problem we dealt with was connected to a civilian reactor program. And if we ever got to the point where we wanted to use nuclear reactors to back out a lot of coal -- which is the real issue: coal -- then we'd have to put them in so many places we'd run that proliferation risk right off the reasonability scale. And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.

When energy prices go up, the difficulty of projecting demand also goes up -- uncertainty goes up. So utility executives naturally want to place their bets for future generating capacity on smaller increments that are available more quickly, to give themselves flexibility. Nuclear reactors are the biggest increments, that cost the most money, and take the most time to build.

In any case, if they can design a new generation [of reactors] that's manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I don't think it will play a big role.

144 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:43:21pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

I can guess what she would do, and it would be the same thing she did with Biden: A long string of broad generalizations and non-sense cliches, all delivered in her famous folksy charms. The fan club would eat it up, not realizing/caring that she did not display any knowledge of the subject(s) at hand.

AmIdol politics...just more reality TV

145 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:44:02pm

re: #141 Mich-again

Who has made more money advocating for a cause he is personally tied to financially: Glen Beck or Al Gore.

Unless Beck has made close to a billion dollars, Al Gore wins that hands down.

146 MikeySDCA  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:44:24pm

re: #138 Spare O'Lake

Oh yes, yes, Al is my new hero. Kick Palin's ass, Al. Oh yeah, baby!

Am I the only one who whishes they could both lose?

147 Buck  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:44:38pm

re: #123 jaunte

It's hard to know how to comment on a speculation about what was in an illegally destroyed email that we only know about because of an illegal hack.

Doesn't mean we ignore it...

148 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:45:22pm

re: #143 Charles

And we'd run short of uranium, unless they went to a breeder cycle or something like it, which would increase the risk of weapons-grade material being available.

I don't agree with that. There is enough yellowcake in New Mexico for all we need.

149 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:45:36pm

re: #143 Charles

Interesting.

150 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:45:37pm

re: #143 Charles

Dammit.

There goes my dream of having a flying car like George Jetson.

151 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:46:07pm

re: #144 albusteve

AmIdol politics...just more reality TV

Are you saying that about Biden/Palin or Gore/Palin? Or both? (I ask because I think Biden was very thorough. He was the only one who was engaging in a debate.)

152 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:46:20pm

'Gem' of a Meteor Shower Underway

If you missed out on last month's Leonid Meteor Shower, don't fret. What potentially will be the best meteor display of the year is just around the corner, scheduled to reach its peak during the overnight hours of Dec. 13-14. The Geminid Meteor Shower, in fact, is already underway.

If the Geminids occurred during a warmer month, they would be as familiar to most people as the famous August Perseids, which people often notice by chance when they're out camping or otherwise enjoying a warm summer night. The Geminids, on the other hand, come at a time when much of the Northern Hemisphere is experiencing bone-chilling cold.

But if you are willing to bundle up, this coming Sunday night into early Monday morning will be when the Geminids are predicted to be at their peak. Depending on dark your location is, and how much of the sky you can see, meteors may streak into view that night at an average rate of one or two per minute.

153 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:46:27pm

re: #134 albusteve

I wonder if he too, is fundamentally opposed to nuclear energy...if not, where has he been?...hustling carbon credits?...for such a whiz bang guy he could surly do better than that

He doesn't seem to actually oppose it, but not necessarily focus on it either. Trying to find an unbiased source, I came upon this from the Boston Globe, July 2008:

To meet his 10-year goal, Gore said nuclear energy output would continue at current levels while the United States dramatically increases its use of solar, wind, geothermal, and clean coal energy. Huge investments must also be made in technologies that reduce energy waste and link existing power grids, he said. He said the single most important policy change would be placing a carbon tax on burning oil and coal, with an accompanying reduction in payroll taxes.

Gore's proposal would represent a significant shift in where the United States gets its power. In 2005, the United States produced nearly 3.7 billion kilowatt hours of electricity, with coal providing slightly more than half of that energy, according to government statistics. Nuclear power accounted for 21 percent, natural gas 15 percent and renewable sources, including wind and solar, about 9 percent.

Coal's share of electricity generation is expected to grow in 2030, according to Energy Department forecasts, while renewable energy would only provide 11 percent of power.

Gore acknowledged the hurdles to reaching his goal. The Alliance for Climate Protection, a bipartisan group he leads, estimates the cost of transitioning to clean electricity sources at $1.5 trillion to $3 trillion over 30 years in public and private money.

154 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:46:40pm

re: #143 Charles

illegal proliferation?...interesting...it cost a fortune now to watchguard our reactors and waste...Yucca Mountain would at least isolate the waste in one safe location

155 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:47:18pm

re: #130 NJDhockeyfan

Has Al Gore debated anyone on global warming?

NJDH; The following isn't necessarily aimed at you.

What the hell is the origin of the meme that debating is a way of validating something more, anything more, than the ability of the debaters to debate?

Please, people, realize that debates are not evidence, they do not give support for any hypothesis.

You want information to help you make up your mind, ignore the debates and follow the published science.

156 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:47:28pm
In any case, if they can design a new generation [of reactors] that's manifestly safer, more flexible, etc., it may play some role, but I don't think it will play a big role.

Our current generation of reactors are safe, Mr. Gore.

157 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:47:46pm

re: #134 albusteve

I wonder if he too, is fundamentally opposed to nuclear energy...if not, where has he been?...hustling carbon credits?...for such a whiz bang guy he could surly do better than that

In the past, he's been opposed to nuclear power on anti-proliferation grounds. Which is to say, he's no stranger to hypocrisy either - i don't know whether he was opposed because nuclear power wouldn't jive with his investments, or because he just didn't take the time to educate himself about how improbable and difficult it is to steal anything useful from a next-gen reactor.

I'll link to the HuffPo, lest anyone think i'm quoting a partisan source...

158 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:47:56pm

re: #148 Mich-again

I don't agree with that. There is enough yellowcake in New Mexico for all we need.

I wouldn't expect him to say anything good about nuclear power. He can't make money off of it.

159 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:48:24pm

re: #143 Charles

hehe didn't mean to step on you.

Good answer from Gore. Waste is always an issue. Is Obama's issue too.

160 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:49:14pm

re: #146 MikeySDCA

Am I the only one who whishes they could both lose?

Nope. In fact let's skip the debate and go straight to trial by fire.

161 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:49:36pm

re: #147 Buck

What do you think was in it?

162 Lidane  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:50:09pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

Please give 8 minutes and 46 seconds of your life to this video

Thank you very much for posting this. I've already passed it on to several people I know who need to see it.

163 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:50:35pm

re: #143 Charles

He's out of his mind. Sure, in the 90's they worried about proliferation. In the 90's, i worried about how to download 1mb in less than a day. Stealing something useful from a next-generation reactor is about as easy as making the stuff yourself.

164 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:50:47pm

re: #137 Mich-again

Palin would win all the style points in a debate about anything with the Gorebot. He might be the one politician who is more of a human caricature than her.

Even if he had every fact on his side he could lose a debate as long as the winner is determined by a poll.

Is someone going to write the answers down on her hands?

Tell her to remove some clothes and give a wink, I'm sure there will be some hard asses willing to give her the debate.

165 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:50:58pm

re: #143 Charles

Anyone who can read that and not think Al would completely embarrass Palin in a debate lives in fantasy land.

166 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:51:34pm

re: #140 Soap_Man

I can guess what she would do, and it would be the same thing she did with Biden: A long string of broad generalizations and non-sense cliches, all delivered in her famous folksy charms. The fan club would eat it up, not realizing/caring that she did not display any knowledge of the subject(s) at hand.

Oh it would be bad. Gore's whole schtick is the environment. He's been working with environmental issues his whole professional career. She wouldn't know what hit her.

167 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:52:06pm

re: #159 marjoriemoon

hehe didn't mean to step on you.

Good answer from Gore. Waste is always an issue. Is Obama's issue too.

is there another or better solution than Yucca Mt?...the bar keeps getting set higher and higher until no solution is good enough...that's the way i see it anyway

168 Ghost of Insanity  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:52:22pm

re: #141 Mich-again

Who has made more money advocating for a cause he is personally tied to financially: Glen Beck or Al Gore.

How is Gore tied to AGW financially? (Not snark)

169 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:53:10pm

re: #162 Lidane

Thank you very much for posting this. I've already passed it on to several people I know who need to see it.

You're welcome. Charles originally posted it at LGF last summer, and it was the deciding factor for me in turning away from the denialists. I thought it would help if it was linked again, and I'm glad it could. :)

170 Soap_Man  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:54:17pm

re: #166 marjoriemoon

Oh it would be bad. Gore's whole schtick is the environment. He's been working with environmental issues his whole professional career. She wouldn't know what hit her.

She wouldn't know what hit her in any debate on any subject. But she would still walk out of there thinking she beat those egghead elitists with her down-to-earth common sense, dontcha know.

171 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:54:19pm

re: #161 jaunte

What do you think was in it?

A little weird nonetheless, though, no?

172 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:54:35pm

re: #165 Locker

Anyone who can read that and not think Al would completely embarrass Palin in a debate lives in fantasy land.

two people I worry little about...doofi...when Palin is up for POTUS I'll reconsider

173 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:54:44pm

re: #130 NJDhockeyfan

Has Al Gore debated anyone on global warming?

When was the last time there was a serious debate in the US on anything...

Even the US version of the Intelligence Squared debates from the BBC is way lamer than theirs...

174 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:55:11pm

So Gore says we'd run out of uranium soon?

Helllooo science

[Link: www.scientificamerican.com...]

175 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:55:13pm

re: #167 albusteve

is there another or better solution than Yucca Mt?...the bar keeps getting set higher and higher until no solution is good enough...that's the way i see it anyway

Sure. Solar, wind, water and electric. Lots of technology to develop and it's happening. NOW. It should have happened 30 years ago, at least, but what ya gonna do.

I just don't get it. It all makes sense. Global warming or not. It's good for the environment, creates lots of jobs for many years, generations, curbs our dependence on foreign oil, I don't see the downside other than it takes $$ but we have to do it.

176 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:56:04pm

re: #168 b_sharp

to add some snark;

He's clearly making his living off of the sales of his movie and his yearly Nobel!

177 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:56:31pm

re: #175 marjoriemoon

I just don't get it. It all makes sense. Global warming or not. It's good for the environment, creates lots of jobs for many years, generations, curbs our dependence on foreign oil, I don't see the downside other than it takes $$ but we have to do it.

Amen to that.

178 wee fury  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:57:24pm

This is interesting.
[Link: www.world-nuclear.org...]

179 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:57:33pm

re: #175 marjoriemoon

Sure. Solar, wind, water and electric. Lots of technology to develop and it's happening. NOW. It should have happened 30 years ago, at least, but what ya gonna do.

I just don't get it. It all makes sense. Global warming or not. It's good for the environment, creates lots of jobs for many years, generations, curbs our dependence on foreign oil, I don't see the downside other than it takes $$ but we have to do it.

A $.50/gallon tax on gasoline would help too. And in one year it would pay for the additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan for the next 2-1/2 years.

180 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:57:49pm

re: #175 marjoriemoon

Sure. Solar, wind, water and electric. Lots of technology to develop and it's happening. NOW. It should have happened 30 years ago, at least, but what ya gonna do.

I just don't get it. It all makes sense. Global warming or not. It's good for the environment, creates lots of jobs for many years, generations, curbs our dependence on foreign oil, I don't see the downside other than it takes $$ but we have to do it.

lots of tech that will not even come close to providing our needs...you can't even put up a personal turbine in ND yet...certainly a windy state

181 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:58:10pm

re: #175 marjoriemoon

solar, wind...i don't want to run on the treadmill when it's been cloudy for three days.

hydroelectric power doesn't exactly suit many river ecologies.

France is getting 90% of their energy from nuclear power. Why isn't that clearly our bridge to solar and wind technology that doesn't turn off the lights every other day (and cost a fortune)?

182 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:59:00pm

re: #179 Cineaste

A $.50/gallon tax on gasoline would help too. And in one year it would pay for the additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan for the next 2-1/2 years.

I don't know. That's a mighty hike. It would cripple some people.

183 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 8:59:05pm

re: #179 Cineaste

A $.50/gallon tax on gasoline would help too. And in one year it would pay for the additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan for the next 2-1/2 years.

lots of irons in the fire eh?...we need nuclear power like, yesterday

184 darthstar  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #25 Charles

He had to. He got caught.

I'm not impressed.

Rick Warren can speak out against the Ugandan bill now that it's sure to go through. Mission accomplished. Now he gets to pretend he doesn't believe in killing gays.

185 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:00:15pm

re: #168 b_sharp

How is Gore tied to AGW financially? (Not snark)


Al Gore could become world's first carbon billionaire

186 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:00:19pm

re: #182 marjoriemoon

I don't know. That's a mighty hike. It would cripple some people.

it's the leftwing answer to everything...tax it, to hell with the losers

187 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:00:52pm

re: #182 marjoriemoon

I don't know. That's a mighty hike. It would cripple some people.

If you really needed to you could build in a tax credit that would come back against regular taxes at the end of the year. Though I suspect those people may not be paying any taxes as it is. I'm sorry, but sometimes pain is necessary to affect change. You could also add a $2/gallon tax to private aviation fuel if you wanted to make sure it was truly progressive...

188 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:00:53pm

re: #180 albusteve

lots of tech that will not even come close to providing our needs...you can't even put up a personal turbine in ND yet...certainly a windy state

You're still harping on that? Good lord man!

re: #175 marjoriemoon

well there are these companies that are tooled to energy production based on coal and oil, and they'd either be pushed out of the picture or take a serious hit to their profits if we switched over...

189 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:01:33pm

re: #171 cliffster

I think we could speculate a long time about all the conceivable reasons why someone would delete an email. The chances remain very slim that it would contain the smoking gun statement that would totally destroy and discredit the rest of the science that supports AGW.

190 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:01:43pm

re: #188 windsagio

why didn't you mention nuclear power?

191 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:02:03pm

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

Makes Glen Beck look like a 3 card Monty hustler.

192 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:02:20pm

re: #176 windsagio

to add some snark;

He's clearly making his living off of the sales of his movie and his yearly Nobel!

And his carbon credit company.

193 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:02:30pm

re: #186 albusteve

it's the leftwing answer to everything...tax it, to hell with the losers

That doesn't even begin to make sense. If the left wing are "socialists" or "commies" then they would believe in taxing the expenses of only the rich and subsidizing the gas for the poor. The people he was talking about being hurt are the poor gas consumers.

194 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:02:51pm

re: #188 windsagio

You're still harping on that? Good lord man!

re: #175 marjoriemoon

well there are these companies that are tooled to energy production based on coal and oil, and they'd either be pushed out of the picture or take a serious hit to their profits if we switched over...

I thought it was an interesting story...when you've been here longer you'll get the hang of it

195 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:03:36pm

re: #191 Mich-again

Makes Glen Beck look like a 3 card Monty hustler.

Heh.

Al Gore is the biggest snake oil salesman of our time.

196 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:03:51pm

re: #193 Cineaste

That doesn't even begin to make sense. If the left wing are "socialists" or "commies" then they would believe in taxing the expenses of only the rich and subsidizing the gas for the poor. The people he was talking about being hurt are the poor gas consumers.

whatever...tax it

197 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:04:24pm

Good evening all. It's the new mother nature takin' over.

198 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:04:43pm

re: #190 Aceofwhat?

I'm not sure the few nuclear plants we have are part of the problem, but sure throw them in if you want. Most of the nuclear plants around where *I* live went down in a bond scandal in the early '80s

~~~

On another note, in OR (where I am now) they're selling people home solar kits that (they claim) even in our rainy winters can offset a large amount of electrical costs of your home.

They're the same kind of setups that are being subsidized in Germany that occasionally sell BACK power to the utility (searching for link, its being obnoxious).

199 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:04:54pm

re: #193 Cineaste

The people he was talking about being hurt are the poor gas consumers.

Consumption taxes for necessities like food or gasoline always hurt the poor most.

200 darthstar  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:05:06pm

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

Al Gore is the biggest snake oil salesman of our time.

You do realize that your obsession with Al Gore only makes you look foolish, don't you?

201 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:05:08pm

re: #176 windsagio

to add some snark;

He's clearly making his living off of the sales of his movie and his yearly Nobel!

He wasn't a producer of the film and I haven't seen him listed as a back-end participant so I'm not sure he made cash off the movie. Though I'm sure it helps books sales.

202 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:05:52pm

re: #197 Bloodnok

i don't know why i dig this song. i just do.

203 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:05:56pm

re: #181 Aceofwhat?

solar, wind...i don't want to run on the treadmill when it's been cloudy for three days.

hydroelectric power doesn't exactly suit many river ecologies.

France is getting 90% of their energy from nuclear power. Why isn't that clearly our bridge to solar and wind technology that doesn't turn off the lights every other day (and cost a fortune)?

I don't know enough about the technology really to comment. As a layman, I'm not against nuclear, but I also agree with Gore. He said a number of concerns other than the waste. The cost, the size of the structures, amount of uranium. Can the energy from heat and wind be stored? I think that's the idea.

I believe there's tax credits offered for companies to switch over. I'm not clear on all of it. I'm not advocating the elimination of oil. We need it. And I imagine if we just stopped buying it, it would cripple the world economy, but we could reduce it.

204 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:06:00pm

re: #201 Cineaste

FWIW

205 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:06:08pm

re: #200 darthstar

You do realize that your obsession with Al Gore only makes you look foolish, don't you?

Rubber and glue. He's just another talking head.

206 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:06:26pm

re: #186 albusteve

it's the leftwing answer to everything...tax it, to hell with the losers

I'm leftwing and I don't like a $.50 tax.

207 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:07:01pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

So Gore says we'd run out of uranium soon?

Helllooo science

[Link: www.scientificamerican.com...]

If you are talking about that quote he said we would start to run out if we replaced all the coal fired plants and put nuclear all over the place. Not saying it's true or false, just trying to clarify.

208 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:07:14pm

re: #198 windsagio

why would they be part of the problem? they don't emit, the tech is here today...why do we need unreliable wind power again?

209 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:07:21pm

re: #200 darthstar

You do realize that your obsession with Al Gore only makes you look foolish, don't you?

Why do you say I'm obsessed with Al Gore? I barely mention him on LGF. Check my history.

210 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:08:26pm

You know what bugs me? Garbage. Maybe I'm just OCD about non-repeatability, but the way we live our days is nuts. Open a package, take stuff out, throw the package in the trash. Take the trash out to a big bin. Do the same thing tomorrow, and the next day. This process requires constant inputs - in this case, space. It creeps me out.

I live in suburbia, but I have a garden and a compost bin in the backyard. Whenever I get enough compost to use it for fertilizer, I'm strangely happy. Ha! This system, for today, is closed! I need no inputs from Home Depot.

211 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:08:26pm

re: #207 Locker

If you are talking about that quote he said we would start to run out if we replaced all the coal fired plants and put nuclear all over the place. Not saying it's true or false, just trying to clarify.

I know. We'd go from a 200 year supply to a 100 year supply? That's not running out...it's a bridge. And he's either misleading or ill-informed, neither of which are admirable qualities in an AGW evangelist.

212 Bloodnok  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:08:41pm

re: #202 Aceofwhat?

i don't know why i dig this song. i just do.

It's a great song. I'm the same way -I don't really listen to this group, but this song kicks ass.

213 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:08:48pm

re: #187 Cineaste

If you really needed to you could build in a tax credit that would come back against regular taxes at the end of the year. Though I suspect those people may not be paying any taxes as it is. I'm sorry, but sometimes pain is necessary to affect change. You could also add a $2/gallon tax to private aviation fuel if you wanted to make sure it was truly progressive...

Well then you have to think about goods and services and how those prices would skyrocket to cover their fuel costs. Trucks, trains, planes.

No, I'm not talking about welfare crack whore mommas... I'm talking about people eeking out a living at $30-40K/annually for a family of 4.

214 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:09:11pm

re: #208 Aceofwhat?

I am *so* confused!


Where did you want me to list Nuclear, and ...

God I don't even know.

~~~

Nuclear is fine tho'. I thought that statement by Mr. Gore that Charles posted earlier made a pretty good argument against largescale expansion of nuclear capacity tho'

215 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:09:19pm

re: #208 Aceofwhat?

why would they be part of the problem? they don't emit, the tech is here today...why do we need unreliable wind power again?

A highly diversified & localized energy grid is the most efficient by far. A combination of large power centers (nuclear) with a multitude of backyard generation or community generation centers (wind, PV, solar, etc.) would be an optimal solution for reliability, cost & security.

216 kittysaidwoof  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:10:22pm

To me it looks like factcheck is fighting a straw man here for I don't think too many people thought the e-mails negated anything, rather they exposed some of the politics and sentiment within the vaunted science community on whom we rely so much, but this is probably due to us in Europe not having to listen to Rush, Alex Jones or what you have in the US.

The poll answer seems to be none of the above or maybe James Inhofe, I didn't bother to check out his position.

217 Buck  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:10:38pm

re: #161 jaunte

What do you think was in it?

I don't know, but I think it is worth investigating. Which is why I ask the question.

218 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:10:45pm

re: #179 Cineaste

Will you pay mine?
We currently have the highest gas taxes in the nation.
6% Sales Tax. 1.25% county tax. 1.2 cpg state UST fee. plus local sales tax ( 9.75%)

219 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:10:47pm

Two of my favorite RW talk show hosts are leaving my reservation. There's none left untarnished.

Dennis Miller had Steven Meyer of Disco Institute on again, this time live.

Prager was going off on Gore and AGW today in a real bad way.

220 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:10:55pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon

I'm leftwing and I don't like a $.50 tax.

because it won't help solve the problem, but hurt everybody across the board, the get lost in the fed black hole...where way too much of our money already goes...tax relief to endorse initiative, free market solutions with federal help...if somebody can solve a problem and make some money at it, we should give them a shot

221 darthstar  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:11:06pm

re: #209 NJDhockeyfan

Why do you say I'm obsessed with Al Gore? I barely mention him on LGF. Check my history.

Let's go back ten minutes in your history, shall we? Nope...barely mention him... /

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

222 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:11:58pm

re: #209 NJDhockeyfan

Why do you say I'm obsessed with Al Gore? I barely mention him on LGF. Check my history.

guys a noob...they say all kinds of goofy stuff

223 jaunte  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:12:07pm

re: #214 windsagio

We have to find something that will replace 44% of the nation's generating capacity pretty quickly. I don't think solar or wind is there yet.
[Link: www.eia.doe.gov...]

224 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:12:21pm

re: #213 marjoriemoon

Well then you have to think about goods and services and how those prices would skyrocket to cover their fuel costs. Trucks, trains, planes.

No, I'm not talking about welfare crack whore mommas... I'm talking about people eeking out a living at $30-40K/annually for a family of 4.

Guess what - 30,000 troops costs $30 billion a year that we don't have. Since we have to find the money somewhere, might as well find it from something that can inspire rapid innovation in an area of the economy we need it. Buying habits would shift towards more fuel efficient vehicles without the need for cumbersome car-specific subsidies.

225 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:12:22pm

re: #219 BigPapa

Hey! Check your Pandora profile, because I left you a message.

226 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:12:47pm

re: #210 cliffster

You know what bugs me? Garbage. Maybe I'm just OCD about non-repeatability, but the way we live our days is nuts. Open a package, take stuff out, throw the package in the trash. Take the trash out to a big bin. Do the same thing tomorrow, and the next day. This process requires constant inputs - in this case, space. It creeps me out.

I live in suburbia, but I have a garden and a compost bin in the backyard. Whenever I get enough compost to use it for fertilizer, I'm strangely happy. Ha! This system, for today, is closed! I need no inputs from Home Depot.

Be more mindful when you shop and don't buy overly packaged material. I actually wrote a letter to Ban rollon when they started putting the product in a paper box lol Maybe others complained because it's not in a box anymore. Carry your own bags to the grocery... well if you compost, you probably know all this.

227 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:12:48pm

re: #187 Cineaste

Why just private avation fuel? You're just cherry picking the people that you think are "rich". IMHO.

228 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:13:06pm

re: #214 windsagio

I thought it was terrible. That should lift the confusion. France gets 90% of their power from nuc plants and Gore says we can't? Please.

229 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:13:53pm

found it!

from wikipedia

In 2004, the German government introduced the first large-scale feed-in tariff system, under a law known as the 'EEG' (Erneuerbare Energien Gesetz) which resulted in explosive growth of PV installations in Germany. At the outset the FIT was over 3x the retail price or 8x the industrial price. The principle behind the German system is a 20 year flat rate contract. The value of new contracts is programmed to decrease each year, in order to encourage the industry to pass on lower costs to the end users. The programme has been more successful than expected with over 1GW installed in 2006, and political pressure is mounting to decrease the tariff to lessen the future burden on consumers.

Its a good program, and would be a major step worldwide, although not a complete solution.

230 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:02pm

re: #221 darthstar

Let's go back ten minutes in your history, shall we? Nope...barely mention him... /

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

he's the subject...it's not an obsession...lurking is a good thing

231 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:11pm

re: #211 Aceofwhat?

I know. We'd go from a 200 year supply to a 100 year supply? That's not running out...it's a bridge. And he's either misleading or ill-informed, neither of which are admirable qualities in an AGW evangelist.

I thought AGW stood for Anti Global Warming, which, by your context is apparently false. So what's the A for? Sorry, I'm clueless.

232 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:14pm

re: #221 darthstar

Eh, we're all talking about gore. data set corrupted. check other threads.

(i don't actually know what you'll find, but this isn't the thread to check gore temperatures)

233 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:29pm

re: #231 Locker

Anthropogenic

234 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:31pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

Hey! Check your Pandora profile, because I left you a message.

Pandora is, like, a social networking thing too? I thought it was for music..

235 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:14:37pm

re: #220 albusteve

because it won't help solve the problem, but hurt everybody across the board, the get lost in the fed black hole...where way too much of our money already goes...tax relief to endorse initiative, free market solutions with federal help...if somebody can solve a problem and make some money at it, we should give them a shot

I don't disagree. You know we were all paying a telephone tax up until a couple years ago that was instituted for the Spanish-American war.

All of this assumes someone on the hill can craft intelligent legislation - but of course that's not a possibility with the dingbats running the show at the moment.

236 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:15:05pm

re: #221 darthstar

Let's go back ten minutes in your history, shall we? Nope...barely mention him... /

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

I've been on here for 2 1/2 years. You can go back a little further than 10 minute, can't you? BTW...you know this thread is about AGW, right? Guess who is the face of global warming?

You've been here for 9 days. Don't be an asshole right away.

237 darthstar  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:15:09pm

re: #230 albusteve

he's the subject...it's not an obsession...lurking is a good thing


I suppose...it's just that I'd like to hear something original other than "Gore's making money","Gore's a liar", and "Gore's a hypocrite"...he's on the right side of the fence regarding AGW...that should count for something.

238 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:15:26pm

re: #221 darthstar

He was answering a question ABOUT the subject.

239 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:03pm

re: #227 Floral Giraffe

Why just private avation fuel? You're just cherry picking the people that you think are "rich". IMHO.

I wasn't the one who said it was a regressive tax. That was just a silly, simple way to overtax one class.

Besides, private aviation fuel is, by-and-large, for the "rich". I don't know a lot of people on food stamps who fly for a hobby...

240 Buck  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:04pm

re: #179 Cineaste

A $.50/gallon tax on gasoline would help too. And in one year it would pay for the additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan for the next 2-1/2 years.

That's Canada... but the money just goes into that big waste pot. It is supposed to go to fix roads and hi ways...

241 darthstar  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:23pm

re: #236 NJDhockeyfan

I've been on here for 2 1/2 years. You can go back a little further than 10 minute, can't you? BTW...you know this thread is about AGW, right? Guess who is the face of global warming?

You've been here for 9 days. Don't be an asshole right away.

Check. I just saw three in a row saying pretty much the same thing and thought, Is that all he's got to say about AGW? That Gore's bad? You can do better than that. Try.

242 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:45pm

re: #234 cliffster

Pandora is, like, a social networking thing too? I thought it was for music..

It IS for music, but you can invite friends and stuff. Big Papa found me at Pandora and left me a message on my profile page, so I sent him a message back.

243 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:45pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

He was answering a question ABOUT the subject.

Sometimes that's a novel concept, here...

244 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:16:57pm

re: #231 Locker

I thought AGW stood for Anti Global Warming, which, by your context is apparently false. So what's the A for? Sorry, I'm clueless.

Anthropogenic (man made)

245 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:11pm

re: #237 darthstar

imho, if you're on the right side of AGW but not interested in developing nuclear power as part of the solution, i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

246 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:12pm

re: #231 Locker

I thought AGW stood for Anti Global Warming, which, by your context is apparently false. So what's the A for? Sorry, I'm clueless.

Anthropogenic (I.E,,, manmade)

247 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:21pm

re: #228 Aceofwhat?

TBH, I'm pretty agnostic on Nuclear, if a little jaundiced by the WPPSS (whoops) fiasco.

What the other person said is right tho', we should be pursuing all viable solutions at once, since no one can get us up to speed.

248 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:34pm

re: #235 Cineaste

I don't disagree. You know we were all paying a telephone tax up until a couple years ago that was instituted for the Spanish-American war.

All of this assumes someone on the hill can craft intelligent legislation - but of course that's not a possibility with the dingbats running the show at the moment.

ha!...excellent catch...good grief

249 What, me worry?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:45pm

Ok gang, I'm out for the night. Good chatting with you :)

250 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:17:59pm

re: #226 marjoriemoon

Be more mindful when you shop and don't buy overly packaged material. I actually wrote a letter to Ban rollon when they started putting the product in a paper box lol Maybe others complained because it's not in a box anymore. Carry your own bags to the grocery... well if you compost, you probably know all this.

Indeed, but thanks for saying it anyways.

251 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:02pm

re: #237 darthstar

I suppose...it's just that I'd like to hear something original other than "Gore's making money","Gore's a liar", and "Gore's a hypocrite"...he's on the right side of the fence regarding AGW...that should count for something.

Then contribute to the debate instead of attacking people you disagree with.

252 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:14pm

re: #219 BigPapa

Two of my favorite RW talk show hosts are leaving my reservation. There's none left untarnished.

Dennis Miller had Steven Meyer of Disco Institute on again, this time live.

Prager was going off on Gore and AGW today in a real bad way.

I really thought Dennis Miller was smarter than to fall for the "intelligent design" creationism scam. But he isn't.

And Dennis Prager is also solidly in the anti-science camp.

Yep, it's disappointing. But it's better to know the truth about where people stand, and now you know.

253 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:19pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

imho, if you're on the right side of AGW but not interested in developing nuclear power as part of the solution, i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Quite Concur.

254 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:37pm

re: #247 windsagio

google pebble-bed reactors. they're almost ready, and they're cool like that.

(i miss the diggable planets)

255 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:48pm

re: #239 Cineaste

But, by that logic, I don't know a lot of people on food stamps who fly AT ALL. Why not tax ALL aviaton fuel, if that's your logic. Heck, there's lots of people on food stamps who don't drive cars... This could go all night.
You're cherry picking.

256 I AM BREITBART!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:18:52pm

Thanks all on the A.

257 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:19:09pm

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

And remember, the Saudi position on what should come out of Copenhagen is that they ought to be compensated for any loss of revenue stemming from a drop in demand for their product. So if, magically, unicorns fly out of Denmark and made us all able to use 50% less petroleum, the oil ticks feel they should be paid the difference.

As I said yesterday, it's like a distillery owner demanding that any sobered-up alcoholics in his neighborhood pay for the booze they no longer drink.

I personally don't think anything binding or effective will come of these talks, but it would be a thousand times worth it to be wrong just so I could see the scowls on the oily Just-For-Men-goateed faces of the Wahhabist bastards when we tell them "no burny, no payee".

258 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:19:42pm

re: #252 Charles

I really thought Dennis Miller was smarter than to fall for the "intelligent design" creationism scam. But he isn't.

And Dennis Prager is also solidly in the anti-science camp.

Yep, it's disappointing. But it's better to know the truth about where people stand, and now you know.

Perhaps a email campaign to send Miller the facts would be in order. He has changed his mind before when confronted by the weight of evidence.

259 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:20:32pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

What is clean coal exactly?

Clean how? Some coal has lots more pollutants than others. Sulfur, metals and so on ; but I guess that mostly it is that coal is much harder to burn as efficiently as, say, natural gas. This means it puts out more CO2 (and other stuff) per ton burned.

260 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:21:28pm

re: #252 Charles
Yes, I heard some Praeger today. SIGH. I thought he was smarter than that. Oh, well.

261 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:21:58pm

re: #242 Sharmuta

It IS for music, but you can invite friends and stuff. Big Papa found me at Pandora and left me a message on my profile page, so I sent him a message back.

That link just opened up Pandora, not anything specific. But it started playing good music from my americana-ish channel, so life is better for me now either way. I'll look into this inviting friends thing and try to find Sharmuta to send a message. Something like "Hey Sharmuta, how are YOU doing?"

262 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:22:32pm

re: #260 Floral Giraffe

Yes, I heard some Praeger today. SIGH. I thought he was smarter than that. Oh, well.

Me too. He's still an interesting theologian, so all's not lost there.

263 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:22:37pm

re: #255 Floral Giraffe

But, by that logic, I don't know a lot of people on food stamps who fly AT ALL. Why not tax ALL aviaton fuel, if that's your logic. Heck, there's lots of people on food stamps who don't drive cars... This could go all night.
You're cherry picking.

Yes - I absolutely am cherry picking. I said a flat-tax on all gas for $.50/gallon. Someone complained it would hurt the poor more than the rich. I said, if that was a serious concern, you could consider a tax-offset for lower income people - though they generally don't have taxes to offset, or you could over tax the rich by selectively taxing private aviation fuel. It wasn't a serious proposal, but the gas tax is.

I think it's preposterous that we engage in long-term overseas wars and expect the only people to bear the burden to be the military and their families (who are, by-and-large, less wealthy as well). If we send these troops (which I agree with) we should all contribute. A one-year $.50 tax to cover those additional troops from now until the middle of 2012 - if they come out early, the remainder of the revenue from this year would be returned as a rebate - bonus stimulus!

264 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:22:48pm

re: #254 Aceofwhat?

like I said, I'm not really against Nuclear (and yes that is a cool technology- when finished :p), but (to explore the subject some) what do you think about the potential of a uranium shortage? It wouldn't be wise to spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars on plants if the fuel is going to run out soon.

265 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:23:20pm

and ps: I know this idea is a non-starter, but I think it's a worthy debate.

266 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:23:26pm

re: #247 windsagio

TBH, I'm pretty agnostic on Nuclear, if a little jaundiced by the WPPSS (whoops) fiasco.

What the other person said is right tho', we should be pursuing all viable solutions at once, since no one can get us up to speed.

The founder of Greenpeace has even changed his mind and is now a pro-nuclear power advocate.

267 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:24:19pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

imho, if you're on the right side of AGW but not interested in developing nuclear power as part of the solution, i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

god has nothing to do with it...if he did the Cubs would win the World Series next year

268 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:24:25pm

re: #263 Cineaste

SNIP
- if they come out early, the remainder of the revenue from this year would be returned as a rebate - bonus stimulus!"

Do you honestly believe that?
Seriously?

269 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:24:27pm

re: #259 Naso Tang

Clean how? Some coal has lots more pollutants than others. Sulfur, metals and so on ; but I guess that mostly it is that coal is much harder to burn as efficiently as, say, natural gas. This means it puts out more CO2 (and other stuff) per ton burned.

nah - they talk about "clean coal technology" - scrubbers & carbon capture systems - which the industry doesn't use and fights like mad. It has nothing to do with higher quality coal that burns cleaner.

270 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:24:34pm

re: #258 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps a email campaign to send Miller the facts would be in order. He has changed his mind before when confronted by the weight of evidence.

I think miller is just going where he thinks his audience is. He's always bin a bit of a shill, and if his producers saw ratings doing well with the other whackjob shows, its likely he'd go along regardless of what he actually believed.

271 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:25:06pm

re: #267 albusteve

god has nothing to do with it...if he did the Cubs would win the World Series next year

Upding for the Cubs!

/Huge Cubs fan here.

272 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:25:08pm

re: #268 Floral Giraffe

SNIP
- if they come out early, the remainder of the revenue from this year would be returned as a rebate - bonus stimulus!"

Do you honestly believe that?
Seriously?

bonus stimulus //

273 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:25:32pm

re: #264 windsagio

i linked above to a scientific american article. a professor estimated we have 200 years' supply left at current usage. usage will increase, but then of course, so will exploration. So even if we cut it to 100 years with increased exploration because we go hogwild, 100 years sounds to me like a really nice bridge to more reliable, advanced tech for solar and wind. i agree we should end up there. i just don't see why we'd isolate ourselves there...unless i owned stock in Gore's companies.

274 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:25:57pm

re: #178 wee fury

This is interesting.
[Link: www.world-nuclear.org...]

This evening CNN had a bit about nuclear power plant construction in the US and elsewhere (and Al Gore was shown). The rest of the world is building plants fairly fast, but not the USA. The primary reasons the USA is lagging is supposedly because it takes so long and has become so expensive that it is problematic if nuclear plants are cost effective, in the USA.

Typically, on MSM shows, nobody tried to explain why it is cost effective everywhere except in the USA.

275 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:26:04pm

re: #262 Aceofwhat?

Yes, I enjoy his ponderings & discussions on morality. Never thought I'd say anything like THAT! LOL!

276 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:26:27pm

re: #264 windsagio

like I said, I'm not really against Nuclear (and yes that is a cool technology- when finished :p), but (to explore the subject some) what do you think about the potential of a uranium shortage? It wouldn't be wise to spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars on plants if the fuel is going to run out soon.

What do you mean by soon?

277 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:26:27pm

re: #273 Aceofwhat?

lol you caught me. I opened up that page, but I got distracted by some asshole on here and forgot to actually read it.

Sorry :p

278 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:26:29pm

re: #267 albusteve

god has nothing to do with it...if he did the Cubs would win the World Series next year

don't tell me you didn't catch the movie reference...

279 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:26:50pm

re: #277 windsagio

lol you caught me. I opened up that page, but I got distracted by some asshole on here and forgot to actually read it.

Sorry :p

happens to me about 3x per day!

280 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:27:01pm

re: #272 Cineaste

Answer the question.

SNIP
- if they come out early, the remainder of the revenue from this year would be returned as a rebate - bonus stimulus!"

Do you honestly believe that?
Seriously?

281 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:27:12pm

So what if Iran is really just trying to build nuclear reactors as a good source of energy? We assume that's a bunch of crap, but, what if they are?

282 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:27:17pm

re: #276 Jadespring

Well reading above we have a while; but I was thinking like the peak oil timeline. Thats what I get for not following links >>

283 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:27:57pm

re: #280 Floral Giraffe

Answer the question.

SNIP
- if they come out early, the remainder of the revenue from this year would be returned as a rebate - bonus stimulus!"

Do you honestly believe that?
Seriously?

I did:

re: #272 Cineaste

284 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:28:10pm

re: #274 Naso Tang

Typically, on MSM shows, nobody tried to explain why it is cost effective everywhere except in the USA.

So well put. Worthy of an upding, even.

285 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:28:18pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

Upding for the Cubs!

/Huge Cubs fan here.

well then I'll certainly pray for you

286 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:29:02pm

re: #276 Jadespring

What do you mean by soon?

re: #282 windsagio

Well reading above we have a while; but I was thinking like the peak oil timeline. Thats what I get for not following links >>

Oh oops I missed the above as well. Duh..it's late. :)

287 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:29:16pm

re: #281 cliffster

So what if Iran is really just trying to build nuclear reactors as a good source of energy? We assume that's a bunch of crap, but, what if they are?

We're not concerned about the electricity they'll generate... it's what they'll do with the leftovers. Also, we've offered them light-water reactors, if I am correct, but they want the nasty stuff.

288 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:29:40pm

re: #281 cliffster

So what if Iran is really just trying to build nuclear reactors as a good source of energy? We assume that's a bunch of crap, but, what if they are?

then they'd take the deal we offered - we enrich it for them. why would you want to enrich it yourself if someone else was going to...unless you needed the capability because you wanted to go weapons-grade on your region...

289 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:29:48pm

re: #285 albusteve

well then I'll certainly pray for you

Do you have any idea of how to get rid of that pesky goat curse?

290 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:00pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

Upding for the Cubs!

/Huge Cubs fan here.

The Cubs will always suck and in rare instances when they don't, they'll choke. Chance of World Series victory is one in a zillion. Yes, a Zillion. Hey DF, where are you on the Cubs/Sox bit?

291 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:02pm

re: #283 Cineaste

GAZE

292 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:04pm

re: #278 Aceofwhat?

don't tell me you didn't catch the movie reference...

Taking Care of Business, right?

293 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:15pm

Meanwhile, the shrieking harpy Pamela Geller is pimping Bosnian war criminals again, in a freakishly insane post about Bill Clinton and the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

294 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:41pm

re: #252 Charles

I'm waiting for Miller to have a real conversation with Meyer but he sorta dances around and lets Meyer run free. I suppose he's an ID'er at heart but had hoped he'd pounce on the inherent flaw in irreducible complexity which Meyer's whole premise is based on: a scientist basing a very complex position on an unscientific and unverifiable premise.

I really like Prager's style and process, especially love hearing deeper theology discussions from him. But he just can't deal with AGW.

Gallagher was never my fave but he was on in the early AM: he was just horrible this AM. The GDS is spiking back up!

295 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:30:44pm

re: #273 Aceofwhat?

i linked above to a scientific american article. a professor estimated we have 200 years' supply left at current usage. usage will increase, but then of course, so will exploration. So even if we cut it to 100 years with increased exploration because we go hogwild, 100 years sounds to me like a really nice bridge to more reliable, advanced tech for solar and wind. i agree we should end up there. i just don't see why we'd isolate ourselves there...unless i owned stock in Gore's companies.

They said we would run out of oil 50 years ago too, based on known reserves at the time.

296 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:31:05pm

re: #293 Charles

Meanwhile, the shrieking harpy Pamela Geller is pimping Bosnian war criminals again, in a freakishly insane post about Bill Clinton and the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

That is sooo 1990s.

297 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:31:07pm

re: #291 Floral Giraffe

GAZE

what are you gazing at?

298 albusteve  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:31:07pm

re: #289 NJDhockeyfan

Do you have any idea of how to get rid of that pesky goat curse?

sorry, it's forever...like the Curse of Billy Penn

299 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:32:06pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Taking Care of Business, right?

*head in hands*

billy madison:

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Billy Madison: Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.

300 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:32:09pm

re: #288 Aceofwhat?

then they'd take the deal we offered - we enrich it for them. why would you want to enrich it yourself if someone else was going to...unless you needed the capability because you wanted to go weapons-grade on your region...


"Energy independence"

You don't want to become dependent on a hostile state for your electricity generation.

I think like alot of countries they want to have it both ways.

Its my personal (and wildly unpopular) opinion that we've lost the war on nonproliferation and we should give up. If Israel or Turkey are worried about an Iranian nuclear program, let Israel or Turkey deal with it. They won't be shooting missiles at us!

301 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:32:10pm

re: #290 cliffster

The Cubs will always suck and in rare instances when they don't, they'll choke. Chance of World Series victory is one in a zillion. Yes, a Zillion. Hey DF, where are you on the Cubs/Sox bit?

I grew up in Lincoln Park, which is a North Side neighborhood. I like in a Near Northwest suburb now, so I have always been and remain a Cubs fan. Even if they suck, I'll still always side with them over the Sox.

302 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:32:57pm

re: #294 BigPapa

I'm waiting for Miller to have a real conversation with Meyer but he sorta dances around and lets Meyer run free. I suppose he's an ID'er at heart but had hoped he'd pounce on the inherent flaw in irreducible complexity which Meyer's whole premise is based on: a scientist basing a very complex position on an unscientific and unverifiable premise.

I really like Prager's style and process, especially love hearing deeper theology discussions from him. But he just can't deal with AGW.

Gallagher was never my fave but he was on in the early AM: he was just horrible this AM. The GDS is spiking back up!

I've seen a lot of lizards say nice things about Prager's show. Unfortunately he isn't on any radio stations around here so I've never heard his show.

303 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:33:54pm

Charles

Does this mean we can now link to hacked CRU emails and documents if we want to discuss this issue, since the topic of this thread are those emails and other documents?

Just looking for a ruling from the Lizard King.

304 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:34:25pm

re: #300 windsagio

China was on board, so while they said what you said, i found it silly and idiotic, given that they have allies who agreed to funnel it for them.

305 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:35:08pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

Charles

Does this mean we can now link to hacked CRU emails and documents if we want to discuss this issue, since the topic of this thread are those emails and other documents?

Just looking for a ruling from the Lizard King.

Dang it Walter - and you and I were having such a nice day together... ;)

306 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:35:12pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

I grew up in Lincoln Park, which is a North Side neighborhood. I like in a Near Northwest suburb now, so I have always been and remain a Cubs fan. Even if they suck, I'll still always side with them over the Sox.

The Cubs fans are the best. Everyone should take note on how Wrigley Field remains sold out or nearly sold out every game no matter how bad they are.

307 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:35:24pm

re: #293 Charles

Meanwhile, the shrieking harpy Pamela Geller is pimping Bosnian war criminals again, in a freakishly insane post about Bill Clinton and the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

Anybody seen Medaura lately?

308 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

I grew up in Lincoln Park, which is a North Side neighborhood. I like in a Near Northwest suburb now, so I have always been and remain a Cubs fan. Even if they suck, I'll still always side with them over the Sox.

I like the Cubs. I miss 100% day games, and 7th-Inning-Poorly-Sung-Take-Me-Out-To-The-Ballgame (rip harry). I love Chicago, too. Been there three times, always interesting every time. I have a co-worker now who lives there and works remotely, so next time I go I'll have a tour guide and really experience Chicago. Good hot dogs too.

309 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

Charles

Does this mean we can now link to hacked CRU emails and documents if we want to discuss this issue, since the topic of this thread are those emails and other documents?

Just looking for a ruling from the Lizard King.

No, please do not link to the stolen documents. If people want to find them, it's not hard. But I'm not going to let LGF be used to spread illegally obtained material.

310 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:36:32pm

re: #305 Cineaste

Dang it Walter - and you and I were having such a nice day together... ;)

I just got in from the theatre, from work, so we couldn't have been having anything, at least not since noon mountain time. Sorry to harsh your buzz. :)

311 Basho  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:36:34pm

re: #127 Charles

Sarah Palin is absolutely terrified at the idea of debating Al Gore on global warming. He would destroy her, and she knows it.

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I’ll get clobbered because, you know, they don’t want to listen to the facts.

312 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:36:52pm

re: #302 NJDhockeyfan

If you want to, you can listen on line
Google it, so I don't link, OK?
KRLA870 dot com
Dennis Praeger is 9-12 Ca time.
Hugh Hewitt is 3-6pm.
Michael Medved is in between.
How's THAT for a vision?
LOL!

313 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:37:09pm

re: #309 Charles

No, please do not link to the stolen documents. If people want to find them, it's not hard. But I'm not going to let LGF be used to spread illegally obtained material.

Duly noted.

314 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:37:29pm

re: #312 Floral Giraffe

If you want to, you can listen on line
Google it, so I don't link, OK?
KRLA870 dot com
Dennis Praeger is 9-12 Ca time.
Hugh Hewitt is 3-6pm.
Michael Medved is in between.
How's THAT for a vision?
LOL!

And all three of them are creationists.

315 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:38:50pm

re: #311 Basho

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditionallogic-type debate with his friendseducated people setting it up or being the commentators I’ll get clobbered because, you know, they don’t want toI don't listen to the facts.

FTFH (fixed that for her)

316 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:39:05pm

re: #312 Floral Giraffe

If you want to, you can listen on line
Google it, so I don't link, OK?
KRLA870 dot com
Dennis Praeger is 9-12 Ca time.
Hugh Hewitt is 3-6pm.
Michael Medved is in between.
How's THAT for a vision?
LOL!

Thanks! I am usually on the road by then. I do have XM but I haven't seen Dennis Praeger on there yet. Medved & Hewitt aren't on there either.

317 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:39:08pm

re: #304 Aceofwhat?

Then they're beholden to China; see what thats done for us!


Its a really interesting dilemma tho', if nuclear power is a good solution to the worldwide global warming/energy crisis, and nuclear power technology is generally usable in weapons technology, which need comes first?

318 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:40:38pm

re: #317 windsagio

Then they're beholden to China; see what thats done for us!

Its a really interesting dilemma tho', if nuclear power is a good solution to the worldwide global warming/energy crisis, and nuclear power technology is generally usable in weapons technology, which need comes first?

We were offering to cover all the cost of refining & raw materials for them - A huge financial gift. They turned it down. Why? They want the raw material for weapons. They look at North Korea and realize that the difference between North Korea and Iraq was one nuclear warhead.

319 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:40:41pm

re: #314 Charles

Yes, they are.
I still enjoy some of the interviews.
I dearly treasured Hugh Hewitt, when I was spending 2-4 hours commuting on the freeways in LA, each way. Even a creationist with an interesting topic, beat the "all news, all the time" radio.

320 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:40:54pm

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

321 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:41:04pm

re: #317 windsagio

Good question outside of the US. I'm more asking about here at home...what in the sam bloody hell are we waiting for? (angst directed into the general direction of NIMBY types, not at you)

322 Mark Pennington  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:41:22pm

re: #307 Cato the Elder

Anybody seen Medaura lately?

She's been super busy with life lately.

323 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:41:50pm

re: #311 Basho

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I’ll get clobbered because, you know, they don’t want to listen to the facts.

In a conventional, traditional debate, you infernal gloating imbecile, the people who set it up are impartial third parties. Commentators make their comments based on the outcome of the debate.

But in Sarah's World, everyone who doesn't think Sarah's farts smell like roses is against Poor Little Sarah, so no honest debate is possible.

This woman is the most chickenshit politician I've ever encountered.

Maybe it's because, deep down, she know's she's as dumb as a doughnut.

324 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:41:52pm

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

Stinky's cousins in a massive series of hamster-wheels hooked up to dynamos?

325 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:42:07pm

re: #311 Basho

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I’ll get clobbered because, you know, they don’t want to listen to the facts.

She just can't resist saying something stupid all the time can she.

326 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:42:41pm

Ever look at the clock and realize you should have been asleep an hour ago?

(that's a compliment to your company, all)

night night

327 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:43:06pm

Cool pictures!

Diver captures images of Antarctic underworld

Norbert Wu has spent the past 12 years braving the bone-chilling temperatures of the planet's most southern continent to piece together his mesmerising collection.

Over seven trips to Antarctica, the extreme diver has travelled nearly 200,000 miles and amassed over 1,000 Antarctic dives equaling an astounding 17 days - or 400 hours - submerged in the frosty depths where temperatures can plunge as low as -1.8c.

On his journey, he captured images of the bell-shaped medusa, or jelly Desmomema glaciale, which can reach over one yard in diameter.

He also photographed emperor penguins whizzing through the water like rockets, and alien-looking starfish and anaemones carpeting the ocean floor.

328 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:43:46pm

re: #325 Gus 802

She just can't resist saying something stupid all the time can she.

Palin or Ingraham?
LOL!
Or, both???

329 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:44:44pm

re: #328 Floral Giraffe

Palin or Ingraham?
LOL!
Or, both???

Well, come to think of it, both. But Ingraham is insignificant in the public realm.

330 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:45:10pm

re: #318 Cineaste

We were offering to cover all the cost of refining & raw materials for them - A huge financial gift. They turned it down. Why? They want the raw material for weapons. They look at North Korea and realize that the difference between North Korea and Iraq was one nuclear warhead.

(damn I'm coming across as so pro-iran here, its icky!)

Well think of it from their POV (and it applies to weapons AND power).

"I'm sorry USA, you're not allowed to develop this technology on your own because we don't trust you and think you're bad. We're allowed to have it though!"

If the situation were reversed, we'd be freakin' the hell out! And we'd do the exact same thing Iran is doing.

re: #321 Aceofwhat?

Inertia, existing power utilities, old-school greenies who don't get it. Lame, innit?

331 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:47:12pm

re: #330 windsagio

(damn I'm coming across as so pro-iran here, its icky!)

Well think of it from their POV (and it applies to weapons AND power).

"I'm sorry USA, you're not allowed to develop this technology on your own because we don't trust you and think you're bad. We're allowed to have it though!"

If the situation were reversed, we'd be freakin' the hell out! And we'd do the exact same thing Iran is doing.

You bet we would. That's the whole premise of American exceptionalism.

332 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:48:05pm

re: #288 Aceofwhat?

then they'd take the deal we offered - we enrich it for them. why would you want to enrich it yourself if someone else was going to...unless you needed the capability because you wanted to go weapons-grade on your region...

Well, if someone were to tell the US, "I will do this for you, you don't do it. You can't be trusted", I'm pretty sure there'd be 300,000,000 US citizens telling that someone to fuck off.

333 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:48:05pm

re: #327 NJDhockeyfan

Cool pictures!

Diver captures images of Antarctic underworld

Awesome!

334 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:48:16pm

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

Which is exactly why it ain't gonna get done. NIMBYs will stop everything that could spoil their personal view (see the proposed wind farm off of Cape Cod and Nantucket, which has fallen victim to some of the biggest hypocritical NIMBYs on the planet, including the Kennedys), and purists will stop anything that still burns shit, even if it does so at 95% efficiency as opposed to the 30% or so we now get.

If clean-coal technology at 95% efficiency became a reality tomorrow, it would still be unacceptable because of the otherworldly eco-dreamers who want us all to exhale eau de Copenhagen starting yesterday.

335 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:48:35pm

re: #330 windsagio

(damn I'm coming across as so pro-iran here, its icky!)

Well think of it from their POV (and it applies to weapons AND power).

"I'm sorry USA, you're not allowed to develop this technology on your own because we don't trust you and think you're bad. We're allowed to have it though!"

If the situation were reversed, we'd be freakin' the hell out! And we'd do the exact same thing Iran is doing.

If Iran weren't run by a suicidal cult we might not be so anxious to stop them. If the Iranians do start making nukes they will use them. I have no doubts about that.

336 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:48:39pm

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

Tell the Luddites trying to shut down the modern world to piss off, that's what. Then get started with nuclear power and building cars than use less gasoline.

337 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:49:13pm

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

DECEMBER 11, 2009, 12:38 A.M. ET
Senators Unveil New Climate Bill Draft

By IAN TALLEY

WASHINGTON – A trio of senators seeking to break a congressional deadlock on climate legislation unveiled a proposal Thursday that combines caps on greenhouse-gas levels with new offshore oil-and-gas exploration and nuclear power plant incentives.

The outline offered by Sens. John Kerry (D., Mass.), Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.), and Joe Lieberman (I., Conn.) won praise from President Barack Obama who called it a "positive development." Mr. Obama is scheduled to attend the United Nations climate summit in Copenhagen next week along with other world leaders, and the U.S. is under pressure to offer commitments to make significant cuts in its consumption of fossil fuels.

But it's unclear whether the Kerry-Graham-Lieberman proposal will win over Democrats from heartland states and Republicans opposed to adopting caps on U.S. carbon emissions. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has put off consideration of a climate bill until spring and is focusing attention on health care and jobs.

Asked if there were any other Republican senators close to joining the three-senator group, Sen. Graham laughed and said, "No."

...

338 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:49:58pm

re: #334 Cato the Elder

You can fix it for us. Harvest static electricity for generally-available energy source. You can do it! Who is Cato the Elder?

339 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:50:18pm

'kittysaidwoof' is outta here, by the way. I can only take so much dishonesty and passive aggressive BS.

340 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:51:08pm

re: #327 NJDhockeyfan

Cool pictures!

Diver captures images of Antarctic underworld

You mean they have the Mafia in Antarctica now?

Seriously, great pics.

341 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:51:10pm

re: #337 Gus 802

If that plan materializes I would stand up and applaud. I think something coming from Kerry & Graham would be great and, potentially, powerful. Lieberman I can do without these days.

342 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:51:43pm

re: #340 Cato the Elder

You mean they have the Mafia in Antarctica now?

Seriously, great pics.

HA! Clever...

Colda Cosa Nostra!

And yep, awesome pics.

343 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:52:41pm

re: #334 Cato the Elder

Which is exactly why it ain't gonna get done. NIMBYs will stop everything that could spoil their personal view (see the proposed wind farm off of Cape Cod and Nantucket, which has fallen victim to some of the biggest hypocritical NIMBYs on the planet, including the Kennedys), and purists will stop anything that still burns shit, even if it does so at 95% efficiency as opposed to the 30% or so we now get.

If clean-coal technology at 95% efficiency became a reality tomorrow, it would still be unacceptable because of the otherworldly eco-dreamers who want us all to exhale eau de Copenhagen starting yesterday.

Neither Kyoto or Copenhagen stipulate what types of power plants are built as long as the long range goals are met.

344 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:53:24pm

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

Windmills = bad

345 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #335 NJDhockeyfan

If Iran weren't run by a suicidal cult we might not be so anxious to stop them. If the Iranians do start making nukes they will use them. I have no doubts about that.

The really troublesome Islamic sects are Sunni, not Shia. Also, they're not as insane as you think. They'd use their weapons (if on anyone) on Israel. And they KNOW Israel will annihilate their nation if they do that. Its a nuclear standoff! Thats the whole reason they WANT nuclear weapons (afaik) they're afraid of Israels arsenal.

346 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:54:18pm

OT Here's one for you:

Did Christianity Cause The Crash

A potentially scathing indictment of Joel Ostein, Creflo Dollar and the other preachers of the so-called "prosperity gospel".

347 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:54:44pm

re: #311 Basho

INGRAHAM: Would you agree to a debate with Al Gore on this issue?

PALIN: Oh my goodness. You know, it depends on what the venue would be, what the forum. Because Laura, as you know, if it would be some kind of conventional, traditional debate with his friends setting it up or being the commentators I’ll get clobbered because, you know, they don’t want to listen to the facts.

Oh my goodness. Well, I'd love to debate the Constitution with Justice Scalia, but it would probably be some traditional, conventional debate, with, you know, other judges setting it up, or being the commentators. I'd get clobbered, because, you know, they don't want to listen to the facts from some chick with no law degree from an elite university.

What the hell is she envisioning? Cream pies at ten paces, winner gets to decide if the planet is warming?

348 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:55:16pm

re: #341 Cineaste

If that plan materializes I would stand up and applaud. I think something coming from Kerry & Graham would be great and, potentially, powerful. Lieberman I can do without these days.

Yes, but as you can see from Graham's response with laughter indicates he's not getting any Republican support. They of course indicate the lack of Democratic support. The caps are the killer even though it's not cap and trade. The only way they can attain greenhouse gas reduction is with caps otherwise they're spinning their wheels.

349 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:55:33pm

Grantchester Meadows


Namaste, y'all
350 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:55:49pm

re: #334 Cato the Elder

Which is exactly why it ain't gonna get done. NIMBYs will stop everything that could spoil their personal view (see the proposed wind farm off of Cape Cod and Nantucket, which has fallen victim to some of the biggest hypocritical NIMBYs on the planet, including the Kennedys), and purists will stop anything that still burns shit, even if it does so at 95% efficiency as opposed to the 30% or so we now get.

If clean-coal technology at 95% efficiency became a reality tomorrow, it would still be unacceptable because of the otherworldly eco-dreamers who want us all to exhale eau de Copenhagen starting yesterday.

Then these eco-fools are going to have to be happy with living like savages if they want the model to fit their idea of what needs to be.

I've said it a thousand times here, I worked for the National renewable Energy Lab (a DOE financed lab) for 13 years, the premier alternate energy research facility in the country, and any of the 900 plus scientist there will tell you ,after 30 plus years of research, that they have made some amazing advancements in the science, but none if it by itself, or any of it combined will still not come anywhere near supplying our current needs.

Evidently I am pro-renewable energy sources, but, where I break with these idiots is the plain hard facts, the technology does not exist right now, period, and there is no way to magically make it happen. It will happen, given more time and more research, but it will happen on the timetable of reliable science, not idealistic pipe dreams.

That's the facts, pure an simple, and you can't put the puzzle together any other way.

351 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:55:54pm

re: #348 Gus 802

Yes, but as you can see from Graham's response with laughter indicates he's not getting any Republican support. They of course indicate the lack of Democratic support. The caps are the killer even though it's not cap and trade. The only way they can attain greenhouse gas reduction is with caps otherwise they're spinning their wheels.

I really liked the "nuclear power incentives" part...

352 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:56:55pm

re: #345 windsagio

The really troublesome Islamic sects are Sunni, not Shia. Also, they're not as insane as you think. They'd use their weapons (if on anyone) on Israel. And they KNOW Israel will annihilate their nation if they do that. Its a nuclear standoff! Thats the whole reason they WANT nuclear weapons (afaik) they're afraid of Israels arsenal.

Dinnerjacket & the mullahs are part of a more radical part of Islam that believes in the 12 Imam, the Mahdi, and the apocalypse. He mentions the Mahdi every time he's at the UN. They aren't your everyday run-of-the-mill muslims. They are way off the charts bat shit crazy.

353 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:58:37pm

re: #343 Gus 802

Neither Kyoto or Copenhagen stipulate what types of power plants are built as long as the long range goals are met.

No, but the NIMBYs and purists decide what shall not be built.

Biomass is out. Right here in my neighborhood they have just about killed a modern, carbon-neutral biomass plant. Because it's eeevul and it burns shit.

354 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:58:54pm

re: #340 Cato the Elder

You mean they have the Mafia in Antarctica now?

Seriously, great pics.

When they say you sleep with the fishes, the mean it.

355 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:59:10pm
356 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 9:59:12pm

re: #351 Cineaste

I really liked the "nuclear power incentives" part...

I suspect that's the direction we're going to take. It provides the best "heavy" power generation available without being dispersed all over the countryside. Of course they do take up to 12 years to construct sometimes.

357 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:00:18pm

re: #345 windsagio

The really troublesome Islamic sects are Sunni, not Shia. Also, they're not as insane as you think. They'd use their weapons (if on anyone) on Israel. And they KNOW Israel will annihilate their nation if they do that. Its a nuclear standoff! Thats the whole reason they WANT nuclear weapons (afaik) they're afraid of Israels arsenal.

The end-of-days fight is what they want. They need the ultimate battle of the righteous to truly fulfill allah's plan. Bin Laden knew he wouldn't cripple the US but he thought he could egg us into a fight with the muslim world. That's his ultimate goal. Nuke-for-nuke trade-offs are fine for some of the most extreme elements and that's what's terrifying. There is no winning with them, there is only complete destruction of them or they keep fighting.

358 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:00:36pm

re: #339 Charles

'kittysaidwoof' is outta here, by the way. I can only take so much dishonesty and passive aggressive BS.

'kitty' has been tagged as a member of a new subspecies of troll: The Denier Troll (Trollus Climatus Ignoramus). It is an ugly species and you are right to cull it.

Disclaimer: 'Cull' in this case refers only to banning, it does not mean any attempt to hurt any person in any way.

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:00:49pm

re: #352 NJDhockeyfan

Dinnerjacket & the mullahs are part of a more radical part of Islam that believes in the 12 Imam, the Mahdi, and the apocalypse. He mentions the Mahdi every time he's at the UN. They aren't your everyday run-of-the-mill muslims. They are way off the charts bat shit crazy.

They play a very sane game, though, or have for a few decades. I'm worried that internal tensions within the leadershop will explode, more than that Dinnerjacket will get twitchy about the end of days.

360 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:01:01pm
361 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:01:07pm

re: #356 Gus 802

I suspect that's the direction we're going to take. It provides the best "heavy" power generation available without being dispersed all over the countryside. Of course they do take up to 12 years to construct sometimes.

The eco-fools will never let nuclear happen. It will never become a major source of power in this country. I know, it works, France is the model, but it will never happen here.

362 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:01:33pm

re: #353 Cato the Elder

No, but the NIMBYs and purists decide what shall not be built.

Biomass is out. Right here in my neighborhood they have just about killed a modern, carbon-neutral biomass plant. Because it's eeevul and it burns shit.

It's a rough I know and it happens everywhere for many different reasons. Not all NIMBY reaction is based on environmental movements. Sometimes it's based on property value worries. Any power plant in the vicinity will reduce property values.

363 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:02:20pm

re: #355 Racer X

100 days in Glacier National Park

I loved my visits to Glacier.
Thank you.
(I wish there'd been a wolverine pic. They were rare, but so excellent!)

364 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:02:26pm

re: #344 NJDhockeyfan

Windmills = bad

another reason I'm glad I live on the west coast. I once went to a big E. WA wind farm to relax when some personal crap was really stressing me out.

I mean we have our chain-yourself-to-a-tree-and-burn-some-trucks crazies too, but I haven't heard too many of the 'OH NO A BAT!' or 'WHAT ABOUT OUR VIEW' arguments out here (caveat: not saying they don't exist).


re: #352 NJDhockeyfan
re: #357 Cineaste

There are some things there I'd certainly call crazy, but I just don't believe they're a threat the way the Wahhabist-inspired sects are. Also, Iran is more worried about not collapsing in revolution right now than anything else >>

365 Basho  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:02:35pm

re: #362 Gus 802

It's a rough I know and it happens everywhere for many different reasons. Not all NIMBY reaction is based on environmental movements. Sometimes it's based on property value worries. Any power plant in the vicinity will reduce property values.

Off to my Mandarin class =/

366 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:03:20pm

re: #353 Cato the Elder

Because it's eeevul and it burns shit.

Talk about yer carbon capture & release!

Hey Now!

(thank you, thank you - I'm here all week. Try the veal and tip your waitresses!)

367 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:03:22pm

re: #359 SanFranciscoZionist

They play a very sane game, though, or have for a few decades. I'm worried that internal tensions within the leadershop will explode, more than that Dinnerjacket will get twitchy about the end of days.

He will do anything to get that Imam out of that well. I believe he even widened the streets of Tehran to make room for the Mahdi's chariot.

368 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:04:10pm

re: #339 Charles

'kittysaidwoof' is outta here, by the way. I can only take so much dishonesty and passive aggressive BS.

Passive aggressive was it's way!
Bye, now!

369 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:04:34pm

re: #264 windsagio

Actually this question about supply got me thinking about other questions and my internet search for the answers has led me to hell and back as I'm finding a lot of info that says different things.

I'm not anti-nuke but I do have questions and since it seems there's lot of interest in here maybe others can help.

Hypothetically, the anti-nuke lobby comes around. Nukes a-ok!

How many plants are we talking about?
Are these plants meant to replace existing power generation and if so how many would be needed to do that and/or what percentage would it be?
If not replacing but covering the growing need for power then how would that be reducing carbon emissions? (I ask because I came across a few sites that said they'd just be for covering the growing need and couldn't find the logic in how that would actually reduce current emissions)
Anyone know anything about using thorium instead of uranium. This one is new to me and I don't know enough about to figure out who is BSing and who isn't.

370 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:04:51pm

re: #364 windsagio

There are some things there I'd certainly call crazy, but I just don't believe they're a threat the way the Wahhabist-inspired sects are. Also, Iran is more worried about not collapsing in revolution right now than anything else >>

And they're praying someone attacks them. The best thing they could have happen to coalesce national support would be an attack from the outside right now, unfortunately.

371 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:06:03pm

re: #364 windsagio

There are some things there I'd certainly call crazy, but I just don't believe they're a threat the way the Wahhabist-inspired sects are. Also, Iran is more worried about not collapsing in revolution right now than anything else >>

If Iran starts producing nukes they will pass them out to other terror organizations. Don't underestimate how sinister and evil they are.

372 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:06:13pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

The eco-fools will never let nuclear happen. It will never become a major source of power in this country. I know, it works, France is the model, but it will never happen here.

Well, it's their loss. It should at least be a major supplement to alternative forms of energy. As we know, even wind turbines and solar power is finding serious opposition from some circles. Then what do we do?

373 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:07:03pm

Thousands Flee Iran as Noose Tightens

NEVSEHIR, Turkey -- Sadegh Shojai fled Iran after government agents raided his Tehran apartment, seizing his computer and 700 copies of a book he published on staging revolutions.

Now, he and his wife spend their days in this isolated Turkish town in a cramped, coal-heated apartment that lacks a proper toilet. But Mr. Shojai, 28 years old, continues to churn out articles on antigovernment Web sites about Iranian political prisoners, and helps to link students in Tehran with fellow students in Europe.

"I feel very guilty that I have abandoned my friends and countrymen, so I make up for it by burying myself in activism here," he says.

He's part of a small but spreading refugee exodus of businesspeople, dissidents, college students, journalists, athletes and other elite Iranians that is transforming the global face of Iran's resistance movement.

374 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:07:38pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Well, it's their loss. It should at least be a major supplement to alternative forms of energy. As we know, even wind turbines and solar power is finding serious opposition from some circles. Then what do we do?

Punt.

375 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:07:57pm

re: #369 Jadespring

One of the challenges of nuclear is the inefficiency of the power disbursement. It pushes out nearly equal power day & night so you wind up dumping off huge amounts of energy overnight. However, if you had more plug-in electric vehicles (for example) that were charging at night you would gain from that perceived inefficiency. What you find is that a whole ecosystem of problems and solutions emerges with nuclear but it does generate massive amounts of energy and emits no CO2.

376 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:08:56pm

re: #374 Walter L. Newton

Punt.

4th quarter, 3 minutes left on the clock.

377 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:08:59pm

re: #345 windsagio

The really troublesome Islamic sects are Sunni, not Shia. Also, they're not as insane as you think. They'd use their weapons (if on anyone) on Israel. And they KNOW Israel will annihilate their nation if they do that. Its a nuclear standoff! Thats the whole reason they WANT nuclear weapons (afaik) they're afraid of Israels arsenal.

Nonsense. ShortShit is not afraid of a nuclear holocaust. Have you ever heard of the Mahdi?

378 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:09:08pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Well, it's their loss. It should at least be a major supplement to alternative forms of energy. As we know, even wind turbines and solar power is finding serious opposition from some circles. Then what do we do?

Recycle bottles, drive Prii, and point fingers at those dirty Chinese and the folks who own pickup trucks.

And wait for the unicorns.

379 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:09:23pm

re: #371 NJDhockeyfan

If Iran starts producing nukes they will pass them out to other terror organizations. Don't underestimate how sinister and evil they are.

"Well jeeze louise! We haven't got a clue where Hamas found a nuclear device Mr. El Baradi! What a total surprise to us!"

380 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:09:43pm

re: #376 Gus 802

4th quarter, 3 minutes left on the clock.

Wait, so Peyton Manning can solve our energy problems?

381 MandyManners  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:10:28pm

re: #364 windsagio

Charles has a lot of articles on how dangerous ShortShit is.

382 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:10:28pm

COP15 – day 4 roundup

A war on drafts has broken out at the Copenhagen climate conference. In response to an alleged Danish draft that was leaked, China, India, South Africa and Brazil on Thursday published a draft for a climate deal calling for a “binding” amendment to the Kyoto Protocol.

383 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:10:54pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

Recycle bottles, drive Prii, and point fingers at those dirty Chinese and the folks who own pickup trucks.

And wait for the unicorns.

It wouldn't surprise me if in 30 years or so China surpasses the USA in alternative (including nuclear) energy production. Within those 30 years all of our projects will still be in the courts.

384 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:10:55pm

re: #379 Cineaste

"Well jeeze louise! We haven't got a clue where Hamas found a nuclear device Mr. El Baradi! What a total surprise to us!"

I really would be interested on how the world would react to a nuclear armed Iran. Maybe we should play that card?

385 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:11:20pm

re: #380 Cineaste

Wait, so Peyton Manning can solve our energy problems?

Joe Montana!

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:11:27pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Nonsense. ShortShit is not afraid of a nuclear holocaust. Have you ever heard of the Mahdi?

I've also heard a lot about how American Evangelicals are pushing for Armageddon.

The crazy religious factor is real, but there are a lot of other pieces with Iran. It's a complex situation.

387 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:11:30pm

re: #373 Racer X

Heard in Iran - International Human Rights Day


On the occasion of International Human Rights Day, Radio Farda aired interviews with prominent Iranian human rights activists about the human rights situation in their country:

Lawyer and Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi believes the human rights situation in Iran is as bad as it has ever been. She said that aggression and suppression of protesters is both directed and systematic. People have been hired to attack and kill youth, she says. She pointed to the government's attempt to ban memorial services for victims of post-election violence as just one example of these violations. "I am warning the UN. Mr. Ban Ki-moon should travel to Iran as soon as possible, before Iran becomes another Zimbabwe," Ebadi says. "Why does the UN remain silent about these atrocities that take place in Iran?"

Lawyer Nasrin Sotudeh emphasized the large number of violations that have take place in Iran in past few years, such as the shutdown of the Defenders of Human Rights Center, attacks on Shirin Ebadi and confiscation of her Nobel Prize by the government, mass arrests of human rights lawyers, and the ban on international travel for nearly all human rights lawyers.

388 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:11:32pm

re: #370 Cineaste

oh absolutely!


The best thing the West can do with Iran right now is leave them alone. They're actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for an Islamic state), and the people seem to only put up with the crap when given an outside threat.

If I could put money, I'd give Iran 10 years at most before the current government falls. Well, unless they manage to get a war.

re: #371 NJDhockeyfan
re: #377 MandyManners

At risk of being rude, we're a little insane when it comes to looking at Iran. I guess we never got over that whole embassy invasion/hostage crisis thing.

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:11pm

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

I really would be interested on how the world would react to a nuclear armed Iran.

Denial. It's not just a river in Africa.

And then there's Bibi.

390 Basho  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:12pm

NIMBYs + Hamster Wheels + Telling them if they stop running their houses will lose value = Unlimited Electricity

391 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:21pm

re: #364 windsagio

There are some things there I'd certainly call crazy, but I just don't believe they're a threat the way the Wahhabist-inspired sects are. Also, Iran is more worried about not collapsing in revolution right now than anything else

You honestly believe that a country that used its teenagers as minesweepers in the war with Iraq wouldn't lob a nuke at Israel if they had a chance?

392 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:36pm

Nations demand tougher climate goals

The two-degree target has split the UN right down the middle. According to the Alliance of Small Island States, more than a hundred nations demand a 1.5-degree limit on the global temperature rise.

393 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:46pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

Recycle bottles, drive Prii, and point fingers at those dirty Chinese and the folks who own pickup trucks.

And wait for the unicorns.

Sarah Palin is waiting for the unicorns, too. She's already working up a recipe for unicorn burgers. :D

/having tossed up the ball, DF waits for Cato to spike it.

394 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:12:48pm

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

I really would be interested on how the world would react to a nuclear armed Iran. Maybe we should play that card?

"Well if Israel didn't have nukes, threatening the balance of power in the region, Iran wouldn't have to resort to getting them"

((hey ,,, it comes natural to me ,,, I grew up in Boston!))

395 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:13:05pm

re: #392 Racer X

Nations demand tougher climate goals

The two-degree target has split the UN right down the middle. According to the Alliance of Small Island States, more than a hundred nations demand a 1.5-degree limit on the global temperature rise.

We demand you stop rising!

396 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:13:23pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

I've also heard a lot about how American Evangelicals are pushing for Armageddon.

The crazy religious factor is real, but there are a lot of other pieces with Iran. It's a complex situation.

American Evangelicals aren't building nukes to kill Jews.

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:13:57pm

re: #391 Cato the Elder

You honestly believe that a country that used its teenagers as minesweepers in the war with Iraq wouldn't lob a nuke at Israel if they had a chance?

Teenage minesweepers weren't armed to the teeth. Are they evil enough? Sure. Do they really have a deathwish? Less obvious.

398 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:14:09pm

re: #388 windsagio

oh absolutely!

The best thing the West can do with Iran right now is leave them alone. They're actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for an Islamic state), and the people seem to only put up with the crap when given an outside threat.

If I could put money, I'd give Iran 10 years at most before the current government falls. Well, unless they manage to get a war.

re: #371 NJDhockeyfan
re: #377 MandyManners

At risk of being rude, we're a little insane when it comes to looking at Iran. I guess we never got over that whole embassy invasion/hostage crisis thing.

I was really surprised at how many commentators on the right were pissed at Obama for not shouting from the rafters that he was on the side of the protestors. That would have been the dumbest thing to do. Quietly support them, when the killing starts, condemn it, but for God's sake don't have the US president advocating one side in that dispute.

399 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:14:39pm

re: #388 windsagio

At risk of being rude, we're a little insane when it comes to looking at Iran. I guess we never got over that whole embassy invasion/hostage crisis thing.

Yeah ,, silly us. With the same mindset in charge there today that held American citizens hostage for 400+ days, who do we think we are casting a suspicious eye their way!

400 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:14:54pm

re: #396 NJDhockeyfan

American Evangelicals aren't building nukes to kill Jews.

You miss my point. It's easy to become preoccupied with religious issues with Iran, and miss the geopolitical angle.

401 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:15:07pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

I've also heard a lot about how American Evangelicals are pushing for Armageddon.

The crazy religious factor is real, but there are a lot of other pieces with Iran. It's a complex situation.

They would like to see it happen. But a big difference is almost all millenium based Christian groups understand that god will bring about Armageddon, not the believers. (yes, I know of a few rogue groups what would like to start the war themselves, but they number in the hundreds, not millions like Maudist Islamics)

402 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:15:14pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Nonsense. ShortShit is not afraid of a nuclear holocaust. Have you ever heard of the Mahdi?

Agree with you there. Windsagio sounds like My Moonbat Brother (MMB™), who told me years ago he hoped the mullahs would get the bomb, "to balance Israel".

That was about the time I stopped talking with him about anything but the weather.

403 It's a cookbook!  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:15:24pm

re: #395 Racer X

We demand you stop rising!

I see an Onion article in there somewhere...

404 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:16:42pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Agree with you there. Windsagio sounds like My Moonbat Brother (MMB™), who told me years ago he hoped the mullahs would get the bomb, "to balance Israel".

That was about the time I stopped talking with him about anything but the weather.

see 394. Was your brother ever in Boston??

405 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:17:11pm

re: #372 Gus 802

Well, it's their loss. It should at least be a major supplement to alternative forms of energy. As we know, even wind turbines and solar power is finding serious opposition from some circles. Then what do we do?

The area I live in has a nuclear plant. It's also a major development area for wind farms. In fact the plant actually has about a dozen massive turbines right outside of it. My parents live right smack in the middle of one so I have personal experience with the whole thing. Needless to say it proves to be an interesting mix of environmental viewpoints when any discussion of energy comes up.
Here when the debate about the specific wind projects going up occurred the biggest thing that shut down or tamper opposition to it was when the it was asked 'Well which do you want, another couple of reactors built on the plant or these wind turbines?' Simplistic I know but it did at least get people thinking about how the energy was going to have to come from somewhere.

True story and the best statement of opposition to wind turbines I've heard. It came in a local debate. "Well I don't want these turbines. They're going to take all the wind and I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to dry my clothes outside anymore"

406 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:17:47pm

re: #402 Cato the Elder

Agree with you there. Windsagio sounds like My Moonbat Brother (MMB™), who told me years ago he hoped the mullahs would get the bomb, "to balance Israel".

That was about the time I stopped talking with him about anything but the weather.

Maybe it is Your Moonbat Brother (YMB™)

407 Cineaste  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:17:53pm

Alright peeps - I'm out of here - end of year meeting with the accountants in the morning and I have to dust off my knee pads... ///

Have a good night - always a pleasure chatting with you.

408 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:18:26pm

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

Teenage minesweepers weren't armed to the teeth. Are they evil enough? Sure. Do they really have a deathwish? Less obvious.

So we can drop our guard on Iran now and worry about purloined climate emails instead?

Sorry. Didn't get the memo.

409 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:19:16pm

re: #405 Jadespring

The area I live in has a nuclear plant. It's also a major development area for wind farms. In fact the plant actually has about a dozen massive turbines right outside of it. My parents live right smack in the middle of one so I have personal experience with the whole thing. Needless to say it proves to be an interesting mix of environmental viewpoints when any discussion of energy comes up.
Here when the debate about the specific wind projects going up occurred the biggest thing that shut down or tamper opposition to it was when the it was asked 'Well which do you want, another couple of reactors built on the plant or these wind turbines?' Simplistic I know but it did at least get people thinking about how the energy was going to have to come from somewhere.

True story and the best statement of opposition to wind turbines I've heard. It came in a local debate. "Well I don't want these turbines. They're going to take all the wind and I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to dry my clothes outside anymore"

The simple answer to that question would be to explain to them how many turbines would be needed to duplicate the electrical output of one nuclear plant. It would number in the thousands.

410 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:19:37pm

re: #392 Racer X

Nations demand tougher climate goals

The two-degree target has split the UN right down the middle. According to the Alliance of Small Island States, more than a hundred nations demand a 1.5-degree limit on the global temperature rise.

That would require a 45% reduction by 2020 which is 10 years away. It should be noted that a lot of AOSIS nations rely on the tourist dollar which means a lot of air travel.

411 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:20:01pm

re: #400 SanFranciscoZionist

You miss my point. It's easy to become preoccupied with religious issues with Iran, and miss the geopolitical angle.

I don't think the mullahs have a political angle when it comes with nukes. It's all about religion. You know, the Mahdi, Armageddon, and all that shit.

412 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:20:42pm

To bed... maybe see you in the AM.

413 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:20:53pm
Obama: Climate change is a security issue

“Not only scientists and environmental activists call for action on climate change, but also military leaders understand that our common security hangs in the balance,” said President Obama in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech.

Giving the Nobel Peace Prize to US President Barack Obama "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples," has been seen as a means of boosting international climate talks.

In his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech in Oslo, President Obama stressed the importance of confronting climate change:

"There is little scientific dispute that if we do nothing, we will face more drought, more famine, more mass displacement – all of which will fuel more conflict for decades," and then he drew attention to the question of security in the climate problem:

"It is not merely scientists and environmental activists who call for swift and forceful action – it's military leaders in my own country and others who understand that our common security hangs in the balance."

According to AFP, the Group of 77 seized the opportunity to urge Barack Obama to steer the US back into the Kyoto Protocol and to release 200 billion US dollars to fight climate change:

"That's the challenge that President Obama needs to rise to. This is what we expect from him as a Nobel Prize winner," said Lumumba Stanislaus Di-Aping of Sudan, representing 130 countries in the G-77 bloc and China.

I see clearly now.

414 abolitionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:20:55pm

re: #281 cliffster

So what if Iran is really just trying to build nuclear reactors as a good source of energy? We assume that's a bunch of crap, but, what if they are?

Assuming that is true, shouldn't they be toning down their Death to America/Death to Israel crap? Some issues are not all that technical.

415 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:21:17pm

re: #391 Cato the Elder

You honestly believe that a country that used its teenagers as minesweepers in the war with Iraq wouldn't lob a nuke at Israel if they had a chance?

yes.

They were trying to not lose a war there, and they weren't throwing their OWN Lives away.

Nuking Israel would mean near-certain death, it seems that most of the government doesn't have that in their make-up (I'm sure some do, but successful politicians and religious leaders tend to let others do the suiciding.)

re: #399 sattv4u2
re: #402 Cato the Elder

Well first of all, it was almost 30 years ago, and most of the people that were in power then are gone.

Secondly, I'm not saying I want Iran to have the bomb... I'm saying I can put myself in their shoes and see why they do. As much as they're not necessarily in my or the worlds best interest, Irans positions make sense. And not a 'crazy fundimentalist sense' either, but real sense. We'd do the same thing in similar circumstances.

I guess the controversial thing I'm saying is that I think its better policy for us to just stay out of it. There are plenty of Liberalizing forces in Iran if we don't become the big scary boogieman to help the Mullahs stay in power.

416 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:21:46pm

re: #388 windsagio

They're actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for an Islamic state)

Jeez Louise

Neville Chamberlain, is that you? Is this 1938?

"Germany is actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for a Nazi state)"

417 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:22:12pm

re: #392 Racer X

Nations demand tougher climate goals

The two-degree target has split the UN right down the middle. According to the Alliance of Small Island States, more than a hundred nations demand a 1.5-degree limit on the global temperature rise.

Somehow the image of King Canute springs to mind.

418 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:23:19pm

re: #416 sattv4u2

They're actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for an Islamic state)

Jeez Louise

Neville Chamberlain, is that you? Is this 1938?

"Germany is actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for a Nazi state)"

Oh snap!

;-)

419 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:23:22pm

re: #415 windsagio

Well first of all, it was almost 30 years ago, and most of the people that were in power then are gone.

It's the same MINDSET. The ones today still view the 'west" as decadent and infidels!

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:23:46pm

re: #408 Cato the Elder

So we can drop our guard on Iran now and worry about purloined climate emails instead?

Sorry. Didn't get the memo.

I'm not saying they're not dangerous. I'm saying that 'Dinnerjacket believes the Mahdi is coming' is not the only reason why they're dangerous.

Big difference.

421 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:23:47pm

re: #413 Racer X

I see clearly now.

I'm sure we all know by now that Lumumba Stanislaus Di-Aping represents the Sudan which is an arms trader with China and oil exporter to China. They're also a rogue nation responsible for many human rights violations, harboring several international terrorists including Carlos the Jackyl and Osama bin Laden. Then there is the matter of Darfur.

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:24:47pm

re: #411 NJDhockeyfan

I don't think the mullahs have a political angle when it comes with nukes. It's all about religion. You know, the Mahdi, Armageddon, and all that shit.

Not sure I agree with that interpretation.

423 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:24:55pm

I'm waiting for a new Onion article - "Progress in Copenhagen blocked by abortion clause"

We are very much in favor of temperature stabilization. We just don't want these new stable temperatures to be used to end the lives of innocent unborn children.
424 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:25:16pm

re: #421 Gus 802

I'm sure we all know by now that Lumumba Stanislaus Di-Aping represents the Sudan which is an arms trader with China and oil exporter to China. They're also a rogue nation responsible for many human rights violations, harboring several international terrorists including Carlos the Jackyl and Osama bin Laden. Then there is the matter of Darfur.

And he of course expects Obama to release that $200 Billion dollar prize over to him.

425 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:26:12pm

re: #421 Gus 802

I'm sure we all know by now that Lumumba Stanislaus Di-Aping represents the Sudan which is an arms trader with China and oil exporter to China. They're also a rogue nation responsible for many human rights violations, harboring several international terrorists including Carlos the Jackyl and Osama bin Laden. Then there is the matter of Darfur.

That's the most astonishing name, innit?

426 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:26:22pm

re: #417 Cato the Elder

Somehow the image of King Canute springs to mind.

It
s ever dumber than that. They can't even project ferocity while engaging in futility. All they can do is whine, and it won't make any difference. The nations they're whining at are not going to damage their own economies for a bunch of small islands.

427 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:26:49pm

re: #414 abolitionist

Assuming that is true, shouldn't they be toning down their Death to America/Death to Israel crap? Some issues are not all that technical.

How many people in the US say, "Death to Iran!"? How many websites? Would it be hard to paint a picture of the US as wanting to destroy Iran?

428 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:27:10pm

Strokenhagen™

Because it will feel good for a short period, then the enthusiasm will go limp.

429 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:27:12pm

re: #416 sattv4u2

They're actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for an Islamic state)

Jeez Louise

Neville Chamberlain, is that you? Is this 1938?

"Germany is actually a liberal nation (except for their government, and for a Nazi state)"

lol, nazis.


I realized as I wrote that that it wasn't clear. Iran is a liberal society saddled with a crazy government. Its not a comfortable fit, and there are plenty of signs that its starting to come apart at the seams. This is especially noticable when you compare it to other islamic states.

Of course their current government is NOT liberal, and is very regressive (less so than say... Saudi Arabia, tho')

Hope that clears things up!

430 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:28:30pm

I'm sorry, but people who abbreviate "though" as "tho'" just irritate me. I'm going to bed.

431 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:28:37pm

re: #429 windsagio

Hope that clears things up

Yes Neville. VERY clear!

432 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:28:59pm

re: #424 Racer X

And he of course expects Obama to release that $200 Billion dollar prize over to him.

Yes, they're looking for money. Not just from the United States. They're demanding money from The West for their "historical record."

433 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:29:17pm

re: #430 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry, but people who abbreviate "though" as "tho'" just irritate me. I'm going to bed.

g'nite!

//sorry ,, couldn't resist

434 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:29:25pm

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

The simple answer to that question would be to explain to them how many turbines would be needed to duplicate the electrical output of one nuclear plant. It would number in the thousands.

I know it would take thousands. I wasn't that clear. I was responding to the question of what to do about opposition to wind farms in particular.


I don't believe in a one off or one source solution for energy generation. To me it makes sense to use what resources are available. Each different source has it's own set of pros and cons and it's own set of risks and costs.

435 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:30:39pm

re: #430 Cato the Elder

just for you I'll try to stop. I'm told I type the way Little Orphan Annie talks >>

re: #431 sattv4u2

Thats twice!

You're lucky its gauche to call it out when you've Been Godwi... Oh damn!

436 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:30:56pm

G'night lizards. Stay scaly.

437 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:31:04pm

re: #432 Gus 802

Yes, they're looking for money. Not just from the United States. They're demanding money from The West for their "historical record."

Big bad America, kicking ass and taking names for over 200 years now. Where would half of them be now if we didn't exist?

Communist?

Nazi?

Dead?

438 Racer X  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:32:36pm

I gotsta go.

Peas out.

439 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:33:26pm

re: #436 NJDhockeyfan

G'night lizards. Stay scaly.

Will keep scaly and green, now don't forget to keep your claws trimmed...

440 cliffster  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:34:13pm

re: #438 Racer X

I gotsta go.

Peas out.

Visualize Whirled Peas.

441 Cato the Elder  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:34:15pm

re: #432 Gus 802

Yes, they're looking for money. Not just from the United States. They're demanding money from The West for their "historical record."

I give this massive guilt-tripping of the West as much chance of happening as reparations for slavery in America.

Who knows, it might even be the right thing to do, but it ain't gonna happen. Not on this planet.

442 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:34:31pm

re: #392 Racer X

Nations demand tougher climate goals

The two-degree target has split the UN right down the middle. According to the Alliance of Small Island States, more than a hundred nations demand a 1.5-degree limit on the global temperature rise.

Here's an example of the two sides of AOSIS:

Bermuda’ Premier Has Fruitful Meeting With British Airways’ CEO

LONDON - Bermuda's Premier Brown is in London this week principally for the Overseas Territories Consultative Council’s annual meeting and several related meetings. While in London, Dr. Brown is also taking the opportunity to meet with other individuals and groups who can strengthen Bermuda’s twin pillars of the economy: tourism and financial services.

Today, the Premier met with Mr. Willie Walsh, CEO of British Airways. After the meeting, the Premier said: “I thought the meeting went very well. I found Mr. Walsh willing to work with Bermuda to strengthen our relationship. We agreed to try some innovative approaches to marketing, including an emphasis on golf and spas.”

Tomorrow, the Premier flies to Copenhagen to add Bermuda’s voice to those of the Alliance of Small Island States (AOSIS) and CARICOM to ensure recognition that Climate Change is a planetary emergency that threatens the survival of many small island countries.

So, he's meeting with BA regarding the expansion of marketing for tourism with "an emphasis on golf and spas" while being a part AOSIS demanding the 1.5 degree target. Last I check BA was a big emitter of CO2 and user of the B777 and B747. Looking to beef up tourism while talking of a planetary emergency doesn't seem to add up.

443 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:34:32pm

I'm out as well. I've got to get up early tomorrow. Goodnight all.

444 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:34:44pm

lol does it always happen that everyone bails out at once?

'cuz I'm gone too! Gotta go sing badly for a few hours >

Was an engaging evening, though, Peace!

445 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:35:43pm

re: #435 windsagio

just for you I'll try to stop. I'm told I type the way Little Orphan Annie talks >>

re: #431 sattv4u2

Thats twice!

You're lucky its gauche to call it out when you've Been Godwi... Oh damn!

Well , at least your consistant. cosistantly wrong, but consistant. our discussion was not long at all, so the "law" didn't apply. Also, it's you thats insisting that Iran is benign, BEGGING the Chamberlain comparison!!

((damn me ,, thats THREE times according to you!!))

(((oh well, guess I'll juts have to liove with your disappointment in me!!)))

446 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:36:02pm

re: #441 Cato the Elder

I give this massive guilt-tripping of the West as much chance of happening as reparations for slavery in America.

Who knows, it might even be the right thing to do, but it ain't gonna happen. Not on this planet.

US delegation leader Todd Stern said no. In fact it was asked of him by a press member who I think was from The Guardian and he used the word reparations.

447 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:38:13pm

re: #443 Dark_Falcon

I'm out as well. I've got to get up early tomorrow. Goodnight all.

G'night DF; get some rest.

Haven't commented until now having gotten to LGF late tonight...so many threads to read and comments to up-ding (never down)... :-)

448 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:39:05pm

re: #447 Surabaya Stew

G'night DF; get some rest.

Haven't commented until now having gotten to LGF late tonight...so many threads to read and comments to up-ding (never down)... :-)

You're a better man than I, gunga din!

449 windsagio  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:39:47pm

re: #445 sattv4u2

dammit, should never 'look at just one more before I go', now I'm gonna be late!


You've got spirit, for a crazy, cranky old man, I think I admire you!

*Love & Kisses*

450 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:40:09pm

re: #448 sattv4u2

You're a better man than I, gunga din!

Gunga Ding!
LOL!

451 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:40:47pm

re: #450 Floral Giraffe

Gunga Ding!
LOL!

dammit ,,, I thought about the dinG after I hit 'post"

452 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:41:32pm

re: #449 windsagio

dammit, should never 'look at just one more before I go', now I'm gonna be late!


You've got spirit, for a crazy, cranky old man, I think I admire you!

*Love & Kisses*

wrong AND condescending! A rare daily double!

453 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:42:07pm

re: #451 sattv4u2

Hah!
It was funny, even with out the Ding...

454 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:42:11pm

re: #448 sattv4u2

You're a better man than I, gunga din!

Thanks...but I'm just following in the footsteps of Uncle Fred:

"It is my avowed mission in life to spread sweetness and light come what may."

Or words to that effect; the quote may possibly be mangled. Our 'That's Lord Mockton Upon High' Lizard would certainly know the exact wording with 100% certainty...

455 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:44:17pm

re: #451 sattv4u2

dammit ,,, I thought about the dinG after I hit 'post"

Didn't even notice that! FG is a better judge of spelling anyway...

456 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:46:15pm

re: #455 Surabaya Stew

Didn't even notice that! FG is a better judge of spelling anyway...

I has been known to be a spelling polizeman, on occasion!
Not, tonight, however!

457 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:47:08pm

re: #454 Surabaya Stew

Thanks...but I'm just following in the footsteps of Uncle Fred:

"It is my avowed mission in life to spread sweetness and light come what may."

Or words to that effect; the quote may possibly be mangled. Our 'That's Lord Mockton Upon High' Lizard would certainly know the exact wording with 100% certainty...

Truth be told, I reserve the downding when someone name calls or is otherwise rude to another Lizard. I rarely if ever downding just because I disagree with 'you'

458 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:49:24pm

Night all. Just realized what time it is. This place is scary. I swear it speeds up time.

459 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:50:40pm

re: #456 Floral Giraffe

I has been known to be a spelling polizeman, on occasion!
Not, tonight, however!

A sign of a good officer is if they stop being one after the day's work is over. Thank you for your linguistic restraints...

460 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:52:50pm

re: #457 sattv4u2

Me too. Except every once in a rare while, there's a real jerk, being excessively rude on a thread. I have been known to just "down ding away." It's rare, but sometimes Lizards behaving badly, just piss me off.
A downding can feel very satisfactory. More so, if they are rarely given...

461 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:55:50pm

re: #457 sattv4u2

Truth be told, I reserve the downding when someone name calls or is otherwise rude to another Lizard. I rarely if ever downding just because I disagree with 'you'

That's totally cool; every Lizard has their own way of handling the 'dings'. (I'm so bad (at being good), most anyone who replies to a comment of mine gets an up-ding!) Peeking at who graded a particular comment is also a fun game; am starting to get pretty good at guessing in advance who up (or down)-dinged a particular comment. However, I try and be fair by balancing out the sweetness and light all around and not just tapping "plus" on the same people all the time.

462 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:56:30pm

Don't know anything about clean coal but here's the clean coal web page at the Department of Energy:


Clean Coal Technology & The Clean Coal Power Initiative

"Coal is an abundant resource in the world...It is imperative that we figure out a way to use coal as cleanly as possible. "

Dr. Steven Chu, Secretary of Energy
Senate Confirmation Hearing
January 13, 2009

"Clean coal technology" describes a new generation of energy processes that sharply reduce air emissions and other pollutants from coal-burning power plants.

...

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Recovery Act) added an additional $800 million to funding for Round 3. On June 9, 2009 the Department of Energy issued an amendment to the FOA for Round 3 of the CCPI. The purpose of the amendment was to re-open the FOA and provide a second Application Due Date (closing date) of August 24, 2009. The amendment also incorporated special provisions of the Recovery Act.

Clean Coal Technology Compendium

DOE provides up to 50 percent of the project funding for the Clean Coal projects. At present the Clean Coal Power Initiative (CCPI) is the only active program. The Power Plant Improvement Initiative (PPII) program successfully completed the fourth and final project, and the Clean Coal Technology Demonstration Program (CCTDP) recently concluded, with 33 successfully completed demonstration projects.

463 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:56:54pm

So, there are 30 Lizards logged into this thread.
BUT, I AM THE KING.
No one's looking!
( Notice the special spelling for Cato?)
And, I really want to post something naughty.
Will you help?

Tee Hee

464 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:57:03pm

re: #458 Jadespring

Night all. Just realized what time it is. This place is scary scaly. I swear it speeds up time slime.

Fixed!

465 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:57:43pm

Something naughty.

466 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:57:55pm

re: #462 Gus 802

COAL?
That's not naughty...

467 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:58:50pm

re: #466 Floral Giraffe

COAL?
That's not naughty...

Oops. What was I thinking! I usually don't do naughty at LGF.

468 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:59:00pm

re: #466 Floral Giraffe

The naughty get coal. In their stockings on Christmas morning.

469 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 10:59:00pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

Thanks, Shamuta!
I was gonna get outta control, or something!
;)

470 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:00:29pm

re: #468 Sharmuta

The naughty get coal. In their stockings on Christmas morning.

Or, a spanking, or something.
Sometimes, naughty can be fun!
Depends on your perspective & your partner!
( And maybe, your level of boredom!)

471 Gus  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:01:37pm
472 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:02:42pm

OT here, and this may have been posted on the Nobel thread; but something about this Guardian article just makes me smile!

Norwegians incensed over Barack Obama's snubs

473 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:03:18pm

re: #360 Racer X

I sent that out to a bunch of friends of mine. Amazing and beautiful.

474 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:03:28pm

re: #470 Floral Giraffe

Or, a spanking, or something.
Sometimes, naughty can be fun!
Depends on your perspective & your partner!
( And maybe, your level of boredom!)

in bed

475 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:05:55pm

re: #470 Floral Giraffe

Right now, I am being naughty by sticking my chocolate in peanut butter.

476 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:07:07pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

Oh that sounds heavenly delicious! There's no combination better.

477 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:07:48pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

Honestly, it's better than Reeses.

478 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:07:54pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

Right now, I am being naughty by sticking my chocolate in peanut butter.

I think some guy named Reeses already thought of that!

479 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:09:53pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

Right now, I am being naughty by sticking my chocolate in peanut butter.

GASP!
Sounds very tasty!

480 Bagua  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:10:17pm

Still drunk, still crazy, and still blue

481 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:10:39pm

re: #478 sattv4u2

Missed it by an inch!

482 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:10:43pm

re: #478 sattv4u2

I think some guy named Reeses already thought of that!

That's what makes it so naughty. I'm rejecting his peanut butter and substituting my own.

483 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:12:50pm

Good night, dear Lizards.
Stay scaly!

484 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 10, 2009 11:13:57pm

re: #482 Sharmuta

That's what makes it so naughty. I'm rejecting his peanut butter and substituting my own.

You took a reeses cup, replaced the PB in it with your own?

Wouldn't have been easier just to get a peice of chocolate and a jar of PB and have at it?

Seems labor intensive the other way!!

485 saik0max0r  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 12:45:19am

LOL, factcheck didn't even bother reading the mail, and the sources they site are pretty much all crap. Also, if none of the investigations are complete, there aren't enough facts to make the sort of determination they are advocating. This isn't a factual argument, it's a speculative whitewash.

It's reminds me when that broad with bad teeth who works for the NY Times (Gail Something or other) wrote that Ann Coulter's book was well researched because it had a lot of foot notes, when anyone with a brain knows that she's a manipulative polemicist.

I mean, seriously you can't spin quotes like this, and the fact that the press would rather "interpret" the FOI package than show you it's contents is insulting.

"proxy diagram of temperature change is a clear favourite for the Policy Makers summary. But the current diagram with the tree ring only data [i.e. the Briffa reconstruction] somewhat contradicts the multiproxy curve and dilutes the message rather significantly… This is probably the most important issue to resolve in Chapter 2 at present.."

What "Message" is getting "contradicted" here? Why The Frak is it a "Message" instead of a "Finding" "Probability" or "Result"? What "Message" of Policy makers are they "Framing"?

That's ok, the *Russians* did it. I know cuz the UN said so. Old Boris and Natasha, cure you and your denialist cohorts!

/

486 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 3:29:28am

re: #143 Charles

Favoriting this so I have it at hand when the nuclear meme rears its head again, as it constantly does.

487 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 3:37:16am

re: #378 Cato the Elder

Recycle bottles, drive Prii, and point fingers at those dirty Chinese and the folks who own pickup trucks.

And wait for the unicorns.

re: #415 windsagio

Nuking Israel would mean near-certain death, it seems that most of the government doesn't have that in their make-up (I'm sure some do, but successful politicians and religious leaders tend to let others do the suiciding.)

This is pretty much it right here. I'm willing to believe the political leadership of Iran is irrational and dangerous and willing to torture and kill its own citizens, I'm not willing to believe the political leadership of Iran is suicidal and motivated to annihalate themselves in a fit of mutually assured destruction.

488 badger1  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 3:57:07am

The Atlantic weighs in on Climategate.

489 MKELLY  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 6:42:17am

If the science is settled then immediately stop all research funding into the question. No need to spend money on something that is settled.

490 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 6:53:12am

re: #180 albusteve

lots of tech that will not even come close to providing our needs...you can't even put up a personal turbine in ND yet...certainly a windy state

Are you seriously putting forward a regulation as evidence that green technology can't meet our needs?

Updating regulations is part of the whole green technology push.

Where the heck is the roll eyes smiley when you need it?

491 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 6:58:42am

re: #182 marjoriemoon

I don't know. That's a mighty hike. It would cripple some people.

It's a big hike but people adapt. Prices in Canuckville have been as high as $1.25/litre. I drive 50,000 kms per year for my job. When I started, fuel was ~.50/litre (I can't remember exactly, old age and all that) and I drove ~75,000 km per year. I had to adapt by changing when and for how long I go out.

Having a big hike like that will make things uncomfortable for a while but people are resilient.

492 louis  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:01:14am

I suggest people read Michael Gerson in today's (12/11) Washington Post. While "Climategate" may not disprove man-made global warming, it's not nothing. Both sides are wrong - the Right is wrong in saying that this proves anything about global warming and the Left is wrong in saying there's nothing there.

493 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:03:54am

re: #183 albusteve

lots of irons in the fire eh?...we need nuclear power like, yesterday

We need intelligent nuke right now. We shouldn't throw up a pile of old technology plants just as a stop gap or we'll face a justifiable backlash from the anit-nukes. The good points of gen III and gen IV plants need to be publicized widely and forcfully, along with the words of people like Hansen and Lovelock who now feel nuke is the way to go.

494 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:06:58am

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

Al Gore could become world's first carbon billionaire

Oh, I thought you were talking about a direct monetary link. From that link you supplied it sounds like he's just being a capitalist. What's wrong with that?

495 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:11:06am

re: #186 albusteve

it's the leftwing answer to everything...tax it, to hell with the losers

Although there are two ways of reading this statement I'll assume in your mind it is the leftwing that is saying 'to hell with the losers'.

It is quite a funny statement since the left wing wants those taxes to build and support social programs to help 'the losers', not that many on the left would call someone hurt by the economy a loser.

496 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:13:13am

re: #190 Aceofwhat?

why didn't you mention nuclear power?

Because he was answering a question that had nothing to do with nuclear power.

497 William of Orange  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:13:24am

I'm stilll wondering. Is there yet an investigation going on who the leaker was in the first place? You never hear anything about that progress. All we hear are rumours that there's a Russian connection. And even that is not taken serious.

498 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:14:20am

re: #176 windsagio

to add some snark;

He's clearly making his living off of the sales of his movie and his yearly Nobel!

From what I heard, he donates those funds.

499 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:16:09am

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

And his carbon credit company.

Interesting as the Gore machinations are, how do they in any way affect the validity of Climate science?

500 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:17:05am

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

Al Gore is the biggest snake oil salesman of our time.

So what?

501 William of Orange  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:21:07am

re: #10 Charles

It's utterly pathetic that the right wing position on climate change is identical to the Saudi Arabian position.

Does it matter what Saudi Arabia says? It matters what the (future) legislators say. It's them we have to deal with. God forbid that Palin will be in power.

It would be a great thing if Saudi Arabia could be kept on a leash.

502 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:25:23am

re: #203 marjoriemoon

I don't know enough about the technology really to comment. As a layman, I'm not against nuclear, but I also agree with Gore. He said a number of concerns other than the waste. The cost, the size of the structures, amount of uranium. Can the energy from heat and wind be stored? I think that's the idea.

Yes, the heat can be stored in molten salt.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

503 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:28:58am

re: #206 marjoriemoon

I'm leftwing and I don't like a $.50 tax.

Nobody likes taxes. Some of us are willing to put up with taxes if it can been shown society as a whole (including us) benefits. Even lowly socialists calculate the cost/benefit ratio, if only subconsciously.

504 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:36:44am

re: #208 Aceofwhat?

why would they be part of the problem? they don't emit, the tech is here today...why do we need unreliable wind power again?

Even if only for independence from the power grid through use of small turbines on dwellings, wind technology is important. It will never supply base load, but it doesn't have to, it can be implemented on a smaller more personal basis to reduce the need for larger plants.

I don't believe there is any one technology that is the panacea, each has their place in the grand scheme but we need to recognize where and when to implement them for optimum efficiency*.

*Again with the cost/benefit ratio.

505 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:42:29am

re: #210 cliffster

You know what bugs me? Garbage. Maybe I'm just OCD about non-repeatability, but the way we live our days is nuts. Open a package, take stuff out, throw the package in the trash. Take the trash out to a big bin. Do the same thing tomorrow, and the next day. This process requires constant inputs - in this case, space. It creeps me out.

I live in suburbia, but I have a garden and a compost bin in the backyard. Whenever I get enough compost to use it for fertilizer, I'm strangely happy. Ha! This system, for today, is closed! I need no inputs from Home Depot.

I live on the flat plains. I mean really, really flat. My dog ran away 3 years ago and I can still see him. Without garbage we wouldn't have been able to build 'Mt Pleasant' for the kids to use in winter for their toboggans. We now have a much larger hill of garbage, about 20 times the size, that we are about to abandon for a new site and make into an even more impressive recreation area and toboggan hill.

Um, do I need a sarcasm tag?

506 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:44:51am

re: #215 Cineaste

A highly diversified & localized energy grid is the most efficient by far. A combination of large power centers (nuclear) with a multitude of backyard generation or community generation centers (wind, PV, solar, etc.) would be an optimal solution for reliability, cost & security.

Damn, you beat me to it.

507 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:52:44am

re: #227 Floral Giraffe

Why just private avation fuel? You're just cherry picking the people that you think are "rich". IMHO.


Either that or private planes are the least efficient. They carry fewer passengers and make more flights.

508 Jimbouie  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:54:58am

re: #55 Sharmuta

EE- Please give 8 minutes and 46 seconds of your life to this video- if this doesn't convince you that you are being lied to, I don't know what will

I still don't believe the issue is settled. The AGW argument depends to a large degree on Mann et al and their "hockey stick" statistical findings of MBH98 and MBH99. HOwever, McIntyre and McKittrick poked some pretty big holes in MBH98 & 99 after a long drawn-out process of trying to get Mann to release his data. M&M's findings sparked an investigation by the NAS which found:

• MBH98 and MBH99 were found to be "somewhat obscure and incomplete" and the criticisms by McIntyre and McKitrick were found to be "valid and compelling."
• The report claimed that the MBH method creates a hockey-stick shape even when supplied with random input data (Figure 4.4), and argues that the MBH method uses weather station data from 1902 to 1995 as a basis for calibrating other input data. "It is not clear that Dr. Mann and his associates even realized that their methodology was faulty at the time of writing the MBH paper. The net effect of the decentering is to preferentially choose the so-called hockey stick shapes." (Section 4)
• The report found that MBH method creates a PC1 statistic dominated by bristlecone and foxtail pine tree ring series (closely related species). However there is evidence in the literature, that the use of the bristlecone pine series as a temperature proxy may not be valid (suppressing "warm period" in the hockey stick handle); and that bristlecones do exhibit CO2-fertilized growth over the last 150 years (enhancing warming in the hockey stick blade).
• It is noted that there is no evidence that Mann or any of the other authors in paleoclimatology studies have had significant interactions with mainstream statisticians.
• A social network of authorships in temperature reconstruction is described of at least 43 authors with direct ties to Mann by virtue of having coauthored papers with him. The findings from this analysis suggest that authors in the area of paleoclimate studies are closely connected and thus ‘independent studies’ may not be as independent as they might appear on the surface. Dr. Wegman stated this was a "hypothesis", and "should be taken with a grain of salt."[44]
• Many of the same proxies are reused in most of the "independent studies" so these "cannot really claim to be independent verifications."[45]
• It is important to note the isolation of the paleoclimate community; even though its members rely heavily on statistical methods they do not seem to interact with the statistical community. Additionally, the Wegman team judged that the sharing of research materials, data, and results was done haphazardly and begrudgingly.
• Overall, the committee believes that Mann’s assessments, that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade of the millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year of the millennium, cannot be supported by his analysis.

509 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:03:56am

re: #228 Aceofwhat?

I thought it was terrible. That should lift the confusion. France gets 90% of their power from nuc plants and Gore says we can't? Please.

The cost may be higher in the States because of population density. Their pop. den. is roughly 3 times that of the US which means they can build fewer but larger plants. That said, cost hardly precludes the US from using nuke for baseline.

Even if we grant the anti-nuke arguments for the old technologies, they certainly, in large part, don't apply to current and future technologies.

510 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:14:26am

re: #259 Naso Tang

Clean how? Some coal has lots more pollutants than others. Sulfur, metals and so on ; but I guess that mostly it is that coal is much harder to burn as efficiently as, say, natural gas. This means it puts out more CO2 (and other stuff) per ton burned.

Ain't no such thing as clean coal even if put through a wringer washer. There are coal plants that do a fair job of cleaning up their exhaust (As I age I may need some of that technology) but that creates other problems. Carbon capture and storage is probably what most people are referring to when talking clean coal.

511 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:20:34am

re: #281 cliffster

So what if Iran is really just trying to build nuclear reactors as a good source of energy? We assume that's a bunch of crap, but, what if they are?

If they are good for them. However, with their history they need to prove it. Until they can come up with that proof, and given the destructive power of nuke, should we be willing to give them a pass? Personally, I don't think so.

512 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:23:33am

re: #295 Naso Tang

They said we would run out of oil 50 years ago too, based on known reserves at the time.

Actually it was based on reserves that were accessible.

When making predictions like that it's tough to guess what new technologies will show up.

513 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:28:28am

re: #320 Racer X

Nuclear power = bad
Coal = really bad
Oil = OMG!
Natural Gas = nope
Wood burning stove = STFU!

Now what?

Windmills aint gonna get it done.

Have you tried rubbing your legs together?

Have you tried Hari Krishna?

514 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:35:55am

re: #344 NJDhockeyfan

Windmills = bad

Only to Don Quixote.

Oh, and birds. Not snow geese though, there are millions of them little buggers.

515 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:55:13am

re: #437 Racer X

Big bad America, kicking ass and taking names for over 200 years now. Where would half of them be now if we didn't exist?

Communist?

Nazi?

Dead?

???

Does your shoulder hurt?

516 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 8:57:27am

re: #445 sattv4u2

Well , at least your consistant. cosistantly wrong, but consistant. our discussion was not long at all, so the "law" didn't apply. Also, it's you thats insisting that Iran is benign, BEGGING the Chamberlain comparison!!

((damn me ,, thats THREE times according to you!!))

(((oh well, guess I'll juts have to liove with your disappointment in me!!)))

S/he never said Iran was benign. Go reread the posts.

517 yoshicastmaster  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:09:45am

Ken Lay said it.

What did I win?

518 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:10:43am

re: #508 Jimbouie

I still don't believe the issue is settled. The AGW argument depends to a large degree on Mann et al and their "hockey stick" statistical findings of MBH98 and MBH99.

Nonsense, the AGW argument depends on the physics. The past proxies are just one line of evidence for temperature increase. The separation of anthropogenic from natural causes is based on the physics of carbon.

The import of the hockey stick has been artificially increased by the denialist side because they successfully questioned it. What they need to question is the physics of the carbon cycle and GHGs. What they need to explain are the other lines of observable evidence of more energy entering the system than leaving the system.

So far they have picked the easiest and least important lines, built an argument of straw around them and lit the match.

519 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:12:29am

Crap it's lonely in here. The echo is kind of creepy.

Hello! Hey, anyone here?

Guess not.

520 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:24:40am

I really HATE that I have to go to bed and miss all the good stuff. I feel like a screaming little kid.

re: #293 Charles

Meanwhile, the shrieking harpy Pamela Geller is pimping Bosnian war criminals again, in a freakishly insane post about Bill Clinton and the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If I'm not too late... My eyes were burning reading that mess. Did I actually read that Timothy McVeigh was in cohoots Pals and Iranians?

521 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:51:54am

re: #485 saik0max0r

Excellent parody of a determinedly ignorant climate change denier!

What? You weren't kidding?

522 Jimbouie  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 9:55:38am

re: #518 b_sharp

Nonsense, the AGW argument depends on the physics. The past proxies are just one line of evidence for temperature increase. The separation of anthropogenic from natural causes is based on the physics of carbon.

The import of the hockey stick has been artificially increased by the denialist side because they successfully questioned it. What they need to question is the physics of the carbon cycle and GHGs. What they need to explain are the other lines of observable evidence of more energy entering the system than leaving the system.

So far they have picked the easiest and least important lines, built an argument of straw around them and lit the match.

But the diminution of the MWP is an important component of the theory that today's warming is unprecedented. Mann/Briffa and the adjusted tree-ring data represented by the hockey stick graph is constantly referenced to show thatt the MWP wasn't really so warm as we thought it was.

523 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 10:05:09am

re: #522 Jimbouie

You're just copying and pasting from Wikipedia.

As a matter of real fact, minus all the spinnning by climate change deniers, the "hockey stick" graph produced by Michael Mann has NOT been "debunked" at all. In fact, it's been vindicated in two separate independent reviews.

And it's been confirmed by very similar "hockey stick" graphs produced from other data sources.

This is another denialist talking point, and as usual, once you start looking into it you find that they're simply not telling the truth.

See: [Link: www.desmogblog.com...]

524 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 10:07:02am

re: #274 Naso Tang

This evening CNN had a bit about nuclear power plant construction in the US and elsewhere (and Al Gore was shown). The rest of the world is building plants fairly fast, but not the USA. The primary reasons the USA is lagging is supposedly because it takes so long and has become so expensive that it is problematic if nuclear plants are cost effective, in the USA.

Typically, on MSM shows, nobody tried to explain why it is cost effective everywhere except in the USA.

Just a wild guess. Maybe because each European country is about the size of Wisconsin. Ace mentioned France has 90% nuclear energy. A lot easier for them than for us, 100x larger. I honestly don't know how it's all planned out. Each state has their own energy company, but there are larger companies that service regions, like the southeast U.S. region, midwest region. Anyway, it would seem the geographics of it all, the sheer size of the U.S. makes a huge difference to cost effectiveness, planning, implementing and the like.

525 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 10:19:31am

re: #521 Charles

Excellent parody of a determinedly ignorant climate change denier!

What? You weren't kidding?

No, I think there was some hope that getting in the last word would make the truth go away, because you know, they "won".

526 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 10:20:51am

re: #523 Charles

You're just copying and pasting from Wikipedia.

As a matter of real fact, minus all the spinnning by climate change deniers, the "hockey stick" graph produced by Michael Mann has NOT been "debunked" at all. In fact, it's been vindicated in two separate independent reviews.

And it's been confirmed by very similar "hockey stick" graphs produced from other data sources.

This is another denialist talking point, and as usual, once you start looking into it you find that they're simply not telling the truth.

See: [Link: www.desmogblog.com...]

Don't forget the National academy's review of the science either that specifically vindicates Mann and brings the other studies as well.

527 Ghost of Insanity  Fri, Dec 11, 2009 7:16:09pm

re: #522 Jimbouie

But the diminution of the MWP is an important component of the theory that today's warming is unprecedented. Mann/Briffa and the adjusted tree-ring data represented by the hockey stick graph is constantly referenced to show thatt the MWP wasn't really so warm as we thought it was.

Why does it matter that todays warming is or isn't unprecedented? Whether there have been upswings in the past is irrelevant, each upswing has its own cause. It is the cause that we are concerned with because that determines our ability to deal with it. Because something has repeatedly happened in the past is not reason to assume every future event will have the exact same cause, sometimes new causes can creep in.

In the case of AGW, we have observed that many times in the past the global climate has bounced up and down, many times more severely than the current trend. Looking into the causes of those changes, whether they be from orbital changes (Milankovitch cycles), bolide impacts, super volcanoes, solar activity, a nearby Nova, or even Galactus, gives us information on how and what to eliminate as a cause. For every previous change, we know humans did not have the capacity to affect the climate, as has been said, there were no SUVs in the past.

Where this warming is different is not in its presentation but in its possible causes; humans have finally reached the point where what we put into the atmosphere can initiate climate change. The only thing we needed to do to determine the cause was to eliminate possible causes, which is what we did. All that is left is an increase in GHGs. The cause of that increase can be determined by the physical properties of CO2, which is measurably increasing. We have determined from an examination of isotopes of CO2 that it is increasing because of fossil fuel burning.

As for the hockey stick, the handle means dick, I'm not sure why the climatologists have fallen into the hole dug by the denialists demanding GHG caused warming look different than previous episodes, the important part is the blade because it tells us how much time we have to adapt, decrease our effect or both.

528 hlazar  Sat, Dec 12, 2009 8:44:07am

There's no question that climategate showed that the data was massaged. I really think it will take a century or two to sort this out and doing anything major now is meaningless

529 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 12, 2009 9:28:53am

Annoyingly persistent, aren't they?

re: #528 hlazar

It showed nothing of the sort. Well, I take that back. It showed just how desperate the deniers are. Stealing, then cherry picking emails for something that isn't there.

530 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 12, 2009 10:52:28am

re: #528 hlazar

There's no question that climategate showed that the data was massaged. I really think it will take a century or two to sort this out and doing anything major now is meaningless

This is complete crap. Why are you people still circulating this lie?

531 saik0max0r  Sat, Dec 12, 2009 2:11:47pm

re: #521 Charles


It's funny, you engage in name calling instead of a factual rebuttal. Are you trying to hit every logical fallacy in one day, or are you going to spread them out over a couple weeks?


Perhaps L.G.F = Logically Grotesque Fallacies.

ad hominem (Deniers!/Idiots/Right Wing blah blah blah)
post hoc ergo propter hoc (The entire topic)
Strawmen (Accusing everyone who is skeptical of being shills for big oil, when the record clearly indicates that Big Oil is in cahoots with the warmers)

532 saik0max0r  Sat, Dec 12, 2009 2:15:00pm

re: #530 Charles

Got rebuttal? What's your lock solid analysis that proves that the data wasn't manipulated?

533 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:52:58am

And with that batch of insults, you are cordially invited to piss off.


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 Frank says:

I was writing all kinds of positive and negative canons and weird inverted this and retrograde that and getting as spaced-out mathematically as I could and I was going "Wait a minute (laughs), who cares about that stuff?" I had always liked rhythm and blues so here I was stuck between the slide rule and the gut bucket somewhere and I decided that I would opt for a third road someplace in between. -- From an 1972 interview to Martin Perlich. On giving up writing serial music.