New Protests in Iran After Ayatollah Photos Burned

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Iran is erupting in demonstrations again, after state television repeatedly broadcast video of people burning pictures of the Ayatollah Khomeini and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Police surrounded the campus of Tehran University on Sunday, trapping hundreds of students protesting what they said were fabricated government images of the burning of a photo of the Islamic Republic’s revered founder.

State television has repeatedly shown images, ostensibly taken during student-led protests on Dec. 7, of unidentified hands burning and tearing up pictures of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. It was a grave and illegal insult against the former leader still widely respected in the country and the elite Revolutionary Guard, the country’s most powerful military force, called for the trial and punishment of those responsible.

Video circulated widely on the Internet on the day of last week’s protests also showed photos of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad being burned as well as one photo of Khamenei and Khomeini side by side going up in flames. The faces of those burning the pictures could not be seen and loud chants against the government were heard in the background. …

Students, who led Sunday’s protests, contended the images of burning photos were fabricated by government agents as a pretext for further crackdowns on the opposition.

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272 comments
1 Ojoe  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:46:37am

Go go go

2 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:50:20am

All the power to the good people of Iran. Throw off the oppressive yoke of that theocratic tyranny. Remember Neda Agha Sultan.

3 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:50:41am

I posted this a few days ago - Iranians are writing/stamping dissent on their currency.

[Link: payvand.com...]

4 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:50:59am

I'm sure the photo burning were faked, but it won't matter. The government created the pretext it wanted, and now it will purge Tehran University. I don't see anyway to prevent it, and I suspect most of the students will give up in despair.

5 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:51:18am

Reports on CNN are suggesting that these "protests" were staged by the government to given them an excuse to crack down on what protests there are.

I have no idea which is correct, but it wouldn't be at all hard to believe this explanation.

6 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:51:44am

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'm sure the photo burning were faked, but it won't matter. The government created the pretext it wanted, and now it will purge Tehran University. I don't see anyway to prevent it, and I suspect most of the students will give up in despair.

Are you saying that the regime is inciting this?

7 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:52:42am

re: #6 Gang of One

Are you saying that the regime is inciting this?

could be...

8 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #6 Gang of One

Are you saying that the regime is inciting this?

There were already protests underway; they've been happening all week as part of the anniversary of...something I don't remember. Speculation is that the government created films in order to inflame public sentiment against the student protesters in order to gain acceptance for a heavy-handed crackdown.

9 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #6 Gang of One

Are you saying that the regime is inciting this?

Yes. The government faked the photo burning in order to discredit the opposition.

10 paybacktime  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:55:23am

The ayatollahs headshots were burned?
Awww.

Burn, Baby Burn

11 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:56:49am

BBC ran a story a few days ago about shots fired and mass demonstrations - it's been simmering again for the last few days.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:56:50am

re: #10 paybacktime

The ayatollahs headshots were burned?
Awww.

Burn, Baby Burn

From how you say it, I assume you mean that in the original Watts Riot sense, rather than the later Disco sense.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:57:27am

re: #11 wozzablog

BBC ran a story a few days ago about shots fired and mass demonstrations - it's been simmering again for the last few days.

Anything from the BBC today? They tend to be fairly good for coverage inside Iran.

14 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:58:25am

Political cartoons and buring photos. Imagine the reaction if something really horrendous were to transpire.

15 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #14 solomonpanting


...burning...

16 PayBackTime  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Nah. Just quoting Congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr.

17 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:00:09am

re: #16 PayBackTime

Nah. Just quoting Congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr.

What do you mean?

18 jayzee  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:00:28am

This is the Iranian equivalent of the burning of the Reichstag. The mullahs are locking down their control of the country.

19 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:00:28am

re: #7 brookly red

could be...

re: #8 SixDegrees

There were already protests underway; they've been happening all week as part of the anniversary of...something I don't remember. Speculation is that the government created films in order to inflame public sentiment against the student protesters in order to gain acceptance for a heavy-handed crackdown.

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

Yes. The government faked the photo burning in order to discredit the opposition.

Hmmm ...

20 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:02:33am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

From the 7th of this month
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

From today
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...] (other recent stories on the right hand tab)

21 Ericus58  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:03:55am

And then there's Turkey:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The Kurdish "issue" has long been kept on the back burner and not worked by integrating the Kurdish population into mainstream life - schools, services, development.

This political move to ban their main political party will have lasting repercussions.

22 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #18 jayzee

This is the Iranian equivalent of the burning of the Reichstag. The mullahs are locking down their control of the country.

For once, I think the Reichstag Fire analogy is right on the money. In both cases the government set up the event to give it a pretext to attack the opposition.

23 political lunatic  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:04:47am

How stupid is this regime? They are at war with their own people. I wish the UN would do something to take these guys out of power. I hope Huckabee, Palin, and the other wannabe theocrat leaders are taking notes from Iran on how to run a theocracy.

24 PayBackTime  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:04:52am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

"Burn Baby Burn" was made famous, as uttered by Congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. referring to the riots that swept the US during the 60's - not just Watts.

I hope the burning of headshots of the ayatollah and the tiny elf-like president of the islamofascist regime of iran, spread throughout their islamofascist land.

25 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:05:38am

May G-d protect and give strength to the brave anti-mullah protesters. And may the government of the USA do SOMETHING to help them as well. The future of the world may well be on the line here.

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:07:01am

re: #6 Gang of One

Are you saying that the regime is inciting this?

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:07:40am

re: #11 wozzablog

BBC ran a story a few days ago about shots fired and mass demonstrations - it's been simmering again for the last few days.

Anniversary of the elections, no?

28 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:08:01am

re: #24 PayBackTime

I hope the burning of headshots of the ayatollah and the tiny elf troll-like president of the islamofascist regime of iran, spread throughout their islamofascist land.

FTFY

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:08:14am

re: #14 solomonpanting

Political cartoons and buring photos. Imagine the reaction if something really horrendous were to transpire.

Something really horrendous has transpired. It took place inside Evin Prison, however, and was not run on TV.

30 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:09:01am

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

BTW, have I wished you a Chag Sameach yet?

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:09:27am

re: #25 _RememberTonyC

May G-d protect and give strength to the brave anti-mullah protesters. And may the government of the USA do SOMETHING to help them as well. The future of the world may well be on the line here.

The only things I can think of that we could do to help, you and I wouldn't know about if we were doing them.

32 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:09:34am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Something really horrendous has transpired. It took place inside Evin Prison, however, and was not run on TV.

What happened?

33 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:09:59am

re: #24 PayBackTime

"Burn Baby Burn" was made famous, as uttered by Congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. referring to the riots that swept the US during the 60's - not just Watts.

I hope the burning of headshots of the ayatollah and the tiny elf-like president of the islamofascist regime of iran, spread throughout their islamofascist land.

Clarification noted and updinged.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:10:12am

re: #30 Gang of One

BTW, have I wished you a Chag Sameach yet?

I don't know. Chag sameach to you, in any case!

(I get to go to my mom's for latkes tonight!)

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

What happened?

Torture of the dissidents.

36 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:11:46am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Chag sameach to you, in any case!

(I get to go to my mom's for latkes tonight!)

Well, Chag Sameach, and enjoys mama's latkes!

37 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

Torture of the dissidents.

Fuck. And how many will remain silent?

38 Ericus58  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:13:00am

And the Theater plays on...

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

39 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:13:43am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Chag sameach to you, in any case!

(I get to go to my mom's for latkes tonight!)

Chag sameach!

I just noshed on a jelly doughnut.

My birthday is this week, and my kids are bringing me to New York for an awesome Hanukkah/Birthday bash.

40 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:13:48am

re: #23 political lunatic

I wish the UN would do something to take these guys out of power.

Dude...

41 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:14:37am

re: #39 Alouette

Chag sameach!

I just noshed on a jelly doughnut.

My birthday is this week, and my kids are bringing me to New York for an awesome Hanukkah/Birthday bash.

Chag and a Yom Huledet sameach to you, ma'am.

42 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:15:14am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

The only things I can think of that we could do to help, you and I wouldn't know about if we were doing them.

agreed ... but I am so disillusioned with President Obama's public stance towards the Iranian regime that I wonder if he is even doing ANYTHING of a covert nature to help the opposition. Under the previous administration, I would not be wondering about this.

43 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:15:47am

re: #40 SixDegrees

Dude...

I just sprayed good sake on my monitor, dude!

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #40 SixDegrees

Dude...

My own personal fantasy involves a tough-looking middle-aged Persian lady climbing out of a well, looking around, and saying "Oh NO. This is SO not OK." The clouds gather and the earth trembles as she starts walking quite determinedly in the direction of the mullahs.

45 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

Torture of the dissidents.

Par for the course for this disgusting theocracy. I'm surprised they haven't gone whole-hog North Korea yet and dumped everyone in hard-labor camps. And if they do, what can realistically be done about it? :( The UN is pretty much useless when it comes to preventing human rights abuses (see Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, etc)

46 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:17:16am

re: #45 publicityStunted

Par for the course for this disgusting theocracy. I'm surprised they haven't gone whole-hog North Korea yet and dumped everyone in hard-labor camps. And if they do, what can realistically be done about it? :( The UN is pretty much useless when it comes to preventing human rights abuses (see Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, etc)

But the strongly worded letters are so intimidating!

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:17:46am

re: #42 _RememberTonyC

agreed ... but I am so disillusioned with President Obama's public stance towards the Iranian regime that I wonder if he is even doing ANYTHING of a covert nature to help the opposition. Under the previous administration, I would not be wondering about this.

My own hope is that Obama can play multiple levels with this. Hope 'n pray, dude, and stand by.

I wonder if they're going to organize support demos in the States again. I know there was one in the Bay Area, and LOTS in LA.

48 brucee  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:18:04am

Iranian TV doesn't show anything without a plan. They faked photo burning and ripping to crush protests even harder.

The institute responsible for publication of Khomeini's works and ideas which is run by Khomeini's grandson has already called it suspicious and blamed TV for airing something like that to further their own oppressive agenda. Khomeini's grandson never congratulated Ahmadinejad on his "election" and did not attend any of the ceremonies.

Some speculate this is all a precursor to arresting Mousavi, because regime is worried about Ashura and how it could turn into massive protests. Looking back at history, they are right to be worried, since during Shah's rule Ashura did turn into big trouble for him.

However, I doubt arresting Mousavi would help much with shutting people down.

49 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:20:07am

re: #46 Pepper Fox

But the strongly worded letters are so intimidating!

Yes, the hyperbole, sarcasm, irony and figurative language is so, so, Dinsdale Brothers, neh?

50 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:20:16am

re: #42 _RememberTonyC

agreed ... but I am so disillusioned with President Obama's public stance towards the Iranian regime that I wonder if he is even doing ANYTHING of a covert nature to help the opposition. Under the previous administration, I would not be wondering about this.

that didn't work out so good the last time... but yes.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:20:19am

re: #45 publicityStunted

Par for the course for this disgusting theocracy. I'm surprised they haven't gone whole-hog North Korea yet and dumped everyone in hard-labor camps. And if they do, what can realistically be done about it? :( The UN is pretty much useless when it comes to preventing human rights abuses (see Rwanda, Darfur, Somalia, etc)

The difference between Iran and the countries listed above is that there is a large middle class, that has been content to give up a lot of personal freedoms in exchange for a sort of detente with the government. Persians are pretty tough folks, and I think the mullahs know that there is a point past which they cannot be pushed.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:20:51am

re: #46 Pepper Fox

But the strongly worded letters are so intimidating!

I keep mine in a scrap-book, with stamps and cut-outs on the pages.

53 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:21:45am

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

My own hope is that Obama can play multiple levels with this. Hope 'n pray, dude, and stand by.

I wonder if they're going to organize support demos in the States again. I know there was one in the Bay Area, and LOTS in LA.

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world. protests in the USA would be good, but protests across europe would be even better. but many european countries do a lot of trade with the mullahs and I don't believe they give a shit enough to protest.

54 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:23:07am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep mine in a scrap-book, with stamps and cut-outs on the pages.

Did you get it for poking holes in a Religion's belief system? I hope to receive mine soon for laughing at a car that had "Go around, I'm on probation!" in the back window and parked in a handicapped space with no permit and a jesus-fish on it trunk.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:23:46am

re: #53 _RememberTonyC

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world. protests in the USA would be good, but protests across europe would be even better. but many european countries do a lot of trade with the mullahs and I don't believe they give a shit enough to protest.

I don't know as demos overseas have any effect at all, but American Persians felt the need to get out and yell, and lots of other people joined them.

56 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:23:49am

re: #53 _RememberTonyC

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world.

That's a terrible overstatement. Global warming, dealing with it, is the largest foreign policy issue faced by the world; how to fix it without imploding every economy.

57 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:24:16am

re: #48 brucee

Iranian TV doesn't show anything without a plan.

Yup. On that subject, a new crackdown on women is in the works there, and Iranian TV just ran a 'documentary' slamming the women's rights movement as part of the propaganda.

They've also just forbidden female announcers from wearing makeup:

Since early November, at least 11 feminist leaders have been summoned to court, threatened over the phone, or banned from traveling, according to the One Million Signatures Campaign. Also last month, Iranian state television ran a documentary attacking the nation's women's rights movement, and on December 2, female TV announcers were barred from wearing any makeup on air.On Dec. 6, amid widespread student protests, more than 10 women were arrested at a weekly rally of mothers whose children were killed during protests of the disputed June 12 presidential election.

Iran's New Crackdown on Women

58 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:24:23am

re: #48 brucee

Iranian TV doesn't show anything without a plan. They faked photo burning and ripping to crush protests even harder.

The institute responsible for publication of Khomeini's works and ideas which is run by Khomeini's grandson has already called it suspicious and blamed TV for airing something like that to further their own oppressive agenda. Khomeini's grandson never congratulated Ahmadinejad on his "election" and did not attend any of the ceremonies.

Some speculate this is all a precursor to arresting Mousavi, because regime is worried about Ashura and how it could turn into massive protests. Looking back at history, they are right to be worried, since during Shah's rule Ashura did turn into big trouble for him.

However, I doubt arresting Mousavi would help much with shutting people down.

Still, if I were Mousavi I'd be making plans to go underground right about now.

59 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #53 _RememberTonyC

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world. protests in the USA would be good, but protests across europe would be even better. but many european countries do a lot of trade with the mullahs and I don't believe they give a shit enough to protest.

They're too frightened of their own resident, non-assimilating Islamists to enter this fray. I'd be more interested in seeing what happens on the Arab street, considering the Iranians are Persians and not Arab.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:25:04am

re: #54 Pepper Fox

Did you get it for poking holes in a Religion's belief system? I hope to receive mine soon for laughing at a car that had "Go around, I'm on probation!" in the back window and parked in a handicapped space with no permit and a jesus-fish on it trunk.

I just get one whenever I write a mean letter about anti-Semitism to the Berkeley Daily Planet.

61 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:25:56am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep mine in a scrap-book, with stamps and cut-outs on the pages.

Isn't Ahmadinejad in Denmark now courtesy of the UN? I question the timing...

62 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:25:57am

re: #57 iceweasel

Iran's New Crackdown on Women

Will we hear even a peep from organizations such as NOW?

63 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:26:01am

re: #56 Obdicut

That's a terrible overstatement. Global warming, dealing with it, is the largest foreign policy issue faced by the world; how to fix it without imploding every economy.

avoiding the detonation of nuclear weapons by an apocalyptic regime is a pretty major "global warming" issue as well.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:26:09am

re: #56 Obdicut

That's a terrible overstatement. Global warming, dealing with it, is the largest foreign policy issue faced by the world; how to fix it without imploding every economy.

Well, OK, but getting rid of the Iranian regime, and replacing it with something pleasant and stable would be awfully nice. Hezbollah's people might have to get day jobs.

65 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:26:28am

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

Still, if I were Mousavi I'd be making plans to go underground right about now.

Unless he's already six-feet underground.

66 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:26:49am

re: #62 Gang of One

Will we hear even a peep from organizations such as NOW?

No, never.

67 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:26:59am

That's one brave jew

Image: n561447436_1742718_4986.jpg

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:27:47am

re: #57 iceweasel

Iran's New Crackdown on Women

Feh, typical.

But please note that they have women on the air. Iran is its own flavor, this is not Saudi's style, nor the Taliban's.

69 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:27:59am

re: #59 Gang of One

They're too frightened of their own resident, non-assimilating Islamists to enter this fray. I'd be more interested in seeing what happens on the Arab street, considering the Iranians are Persians and not Arab.

the arab street should not be expected to protest against the mullahs ... unless, that is, an arab regime orders its people to do so.

70 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:28:09am

re: #56 Obdicut

That's a terrible overstatement. Global warming, dealing with it, is the largest foreign policy issue faced by the world; how to fix it without imploding every economy.

I'm sure an Iranian nuke might warm things as well.

71 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:28:19am

re: #66 Cannadian Club Akbar

No, never.

Like the Queers for Palestine. Clueless and/or gutless.

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:29:00am

re: #62 Gang of One

Will we hear even a peep from organizations such as NOW?

NOW has an almost exclusively national rather than international agenda, but it is possible that given the high profile of this, they may respond.

73 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:30:16am

re: #62 Gang of One

Will we hear even a peep from organizations such as NOW?

NOW is the National Organization for Women, and is active in equality for women at the national level, not the international.

Yes, the international feminist organisations are of course paying attention to it. They've been paying attention to the plight of women in the middle east for years.

74 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:30:48am

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

NOW has an almost exclusively national rather than international agenda, but it is possible that given the high profile of this, they may respond.

Fair enough. I'd be very impressed if they stepped up to the plate.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:31:16am

re: #66 Cannadian Club Akbar

No, never.

Hold on a damn minute. Have you ever actually read NOW's website, say?

76 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #73 iceweasel

NOW is the National Organization for Women, and is active in equality for women at the national level, not the international.

Yes, the international feminist organisations are of course paying attention to it. They've been paying attention to the plight of women in the middle east for years.

Point taken. Thank you.

77 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:32:43am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold on a damn minute. Have you ever actually read NOW's website, say?

Nope. And don't see it in my future.

78 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:33:00am

re: #67 Pepper Fox

That's one brave jew

[Link: photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net...]

If he was in the middle of an Ashura celebration, he'd be one dead Jew.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:33:00am

re: #73 iceweasel

NOW is the National Organization for Women, and is active in equality for women at the national level, not the international.

Yes, the international feminist organisations are of course paying attention to it. They've been paying attention to the plight of women in the middle east for years.

Since before any non-religious right-wing organizations gave a damn, I might add. The feminist movement was routinely called clueless and naive for trying to get the U.S. to do something about the plight of women under the Taliban, if I recall the early nineties correctly.

80 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:33:15am

COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - Police detained nearly 1,000 people in Copenhagen on Saturday during mass demonstrations to demand that negotiators at U.N. talks agree a strong treaty to fight global warming.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

81 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #80 Pepper Fox

Sounds like it was just a handful of bad eggs actually

82 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:35:18am

re: #67 Pepper Fox

That's one brave jew

[Link: photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net...]

Not so much. He's walking through some sort of Santa party. He'd be at no real risk of anything but mockery. As Alouette notes, had it been an Ashura celebration things would be quite different.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:35:52am

Please check out the page on legislation to assist Afghan women currently on the NOW site.

84 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:36:05am

re: #67 Pepper Fox

That's one brave jew

[Link: photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net...]

Looks like fauxtoshop to me.

85 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:36:13am

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

Since before any non-religious right-wing organizations gave a damn, I might add. The feminist movement was routinely called clueless and naive for trying to get the U.S. to do something about the plight of women under the Taliban, if I recall the early nineties correctly.

Absolutely. And women's magazines like Glamour and Elle were running pieces on the plight of women under the Taliban back then--and in the late 80's too. It wasn't just Ms Magazine calling attention to it, but damn few other 'mainstream' media outlets were paying attention.

86 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:36:40am

re: #63 _RememberTonyC

Well, I don't buy that the Iranians are apocalyptic, anyway. I think they're just an ordinary brutish gang of thugs regime. You know, your average complete assholish semi-genocidal unreasonable oligarchs. But I think they have self-preservation.

And I'm being totally serious when I say that global warming is a greater foreign policy challenge. It has immense implications. Just from a national security perspective, take a look at this:

Implications of climate change for national security -- Warning, PDF.

87 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:36:41am

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Please check out the page on legislation to assist Afghan women currently on the NOW site.

Nice to see them taking notice.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:36:59am

re: #74 Gang of One

Fair enough. I'd be very impressed if they stepped up to the plate.

I'd like to point out that when that guy decapitated his wife in NY State, people here pointed fingers at NOW. A few days later they had issued a statement calling it an honor killing and condemning the murder.

89 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #80 Pepper Fox

Nothing says concern for the environment like torching a few cars.

90 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:37:37am

re: #81 Pepper Fox

Sounds like it was just a handful of bad eggs actually

Indeed. The articles also state that Danish law allows for up to 12 hours preventative detention to keep a protest from turning violent. Moreover, the police had found bolt-cutters and gasmasks in a truck leading the protest, giving clear indication that the "balck bloc" intended to try to breech the conference perimeter.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:37:47am

re: #77 Cannadian Club Akbar

Nope. And don't see it in my future.

So tell me, where did you get this impression of them from?

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:38:08am

re: #78 Alouette

If he was in the middle of an Ashura celebration, he'd be one dead Jew.

Only if they could figure out what the coat said.

93 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:38:17am

re: #89 soxfan4life

Nothing says concern for the environment like torching a few cars.

Didn't some hippies torch a Hummer or SUv factory some odd years ago and released more pollutants than all the cars that factory would produce over a span of 20 years or so?

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:39:11am

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Nice to see them taking notice.

They've always taken notice. They also have stuff up on Uganda.

95 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:39:43am

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to point out that when that guy decapitated his wife in NY State, people here pointed fingers at NOW. A few days later they had issued a statement calling it an honor killing and condemning the murder.

Kudos to them. Bravo ... and I'm being sincere.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:39:46am

re: #89 soxfan4life

Nothing says concern for the environment like torching a few cars.

Yeah--isn't a burning car releasing, like, HORRIBLE stuff into the air?

97 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #93 Pepper Fox

Didn't some hippies torch a Hummer or SUv factory some odd years ago and released more pollutants than all the cars that factory would produce over a span of 20 years or so?

Not aware of that, but kind of ironic no?

98 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:39:55am

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to point out that when that guy decapitated his wife in NY State, people here pointed fingers at NOW. A few days later they had issued a statement calling it an honor killing and condemning the murder.

There's a reflexive hate for NOW that is similar to the reflexive hate some others have for the ACLU. In both cases it's typically people who are almost wholly ignorant of the organisation's actual policies and platforms and activity.

I don't quite get the NOW hate; it's linked to some fantasy of them as crazed feminazis who hate men, etc.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:40:30am

re: #93 Pepper Fox

Didn't some hippies torch a Hummer or SUv factory some odd years ago and released more pollutants than all the cars that factory would produce over a span of 20 years or so?

I've never heard of this event, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised. Burning toxic stuff cannot be a good idea.

100 Pepper Fox  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:40:36am

re: #84 Gang of One

Looks like fauxtoshop to me.

Maybe but you can buy a blue Santa suit, found it online. If I was gonna pick an "anti-santa" it would have to be Krampus. Germans had it right, my kids are gonna get him instead of a lump of coal if they are little bastards that year.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

101 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:40:56am

re: #98 iceweasel

There's a reflexive hate for NOW that is similar to the reflexive hate some others have for the ACLU. In both cases it's typically people who are almost wholly ignorant of the organisation's actual policies and platforms and activity.

I don't quite get the NOW hate; it's linked to some fantasy of them as crazed feminazis who hate men, etc.


You mean they don't?///

102 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Please check out the page on legislation to assist Afghan women currently on the NOW site.

How long has this bill been proposed?

103 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #93 Pepper Fox

Didn't some hippies torch a Hummer or SUv factory some odd years ago and released more pollutants than all the cars that factory would produce over a span of 20 years or so?

They actually torched a Hummer dealership. The actual assembly plants have decent security, and if they torched them the group to blame would quickly get a lesson in union violence from the UAW.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:42:15am

re: #98 iceweasel

There's a reflexive hate for NOW that is similar to the reflexive hate some others have for the ACLU. In both cases it's typically people who are almost wholly ignorant of the organisation's actual policies and platforms and activity.

I don't quite get the NOW hate; it's linked to some fantasy of them as crazed feminazis who hate men, etc.

They're kind of boring, really. Middle-aged white ladies who want women to make an equal wage. I mean, Code Pink is crazy, and they dress up. NOW is sane, and they wear cute skirt-suits and sensible pumps. Dull.

105 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #102 MandyManners

How long has this bill been proposed?

January 13th, 2009

It's in committee now.

106 jayzee  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:43:11am

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

For once, I think the Reichstag Fire analogy is right on the money. In both cases the government set up the event to give it a pretext to attack the opposition.

Thank you. I don't use Nazi imagery lightly. I try to avoid using it politically at all costs as it demeans the memory of those slaughtered in the holocaust and minimizes the evil of the Nazis. In this case however, fascists are trying to solidify their control and destroy their enemies. The analogy is valid.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #102 MandyManners

How long has this bill been proposed?

I don't know. The page is from August.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:44:12am

re: #105 Obdicut

January 13th, 2009

It's in committee now.

Ah, thanks.

109 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:45:18am

re: #105 Obdicut

January 13th, 2009

It's in committee now.

Given the public concern over governmental spending I wouldn't expect the bill to get out of committee.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:45:52am

re: #109 soxfan4life

Given the public concern over governmental spending I wouldn't expect the bill to get out of committee.

Why do the tea partiers hate Afghan women?

///

111 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:46:51am

re: #106 jayzee

Thank you. I don't use Nazi imagery lightly. I try to avoid using it politically at all costs as it demeans the memory of those slaughtered in the holocaust and minimizes the evil of the Nazis. In this case however, fascists are trying to solidify their control and destroy their enemies. The analogy is valid.

Quite Concur.

I'm going to get something to eat. BBIAB

112 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:47:19am

re: #109 soxfan4life

Given the public concern over governmental spending I wouldn't expect the bill to get out of committee.

well it could get tacked on to some other spending bill if is needed to buy a vote. Sad isn't it.

113 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:48:49am

re: #112 brookly red

well it could get tacked on to some other spending bill if is needed to buy a vote. Sad isn't it.

That's what they're doing with the legislation to increase the debt ceiling, attaching it to the Defense spending bill.

114 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:48:49am

re: #105 Obdicut

January 13th, 2009

It's in committee now.

Were there any similar bills proposed over the seven or so years before?

115 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:49:07am

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. The page is from August.

No. 105.

116 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:49:07am

goddamn thing ate my comment!

re: #98 iceweasel

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

Hating NOW is like still arguing about Vietnam. Its an obsession from 30+ years ago that boomers can't get over.

Also, they're apparently all lesbians who want to corrupt our wives and daughters >

117 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:51:33am

re: #86 Obdicut

Well, I don't buy that the Iranians are apocalyptic, anyway. I think they're just an ordinary brutish gang of thugs regime. You know, your average complete assholish semi-genocidal unreasonable oligarchs. But I think they have self-preservation.

And I'm being totally serious when I say that global warming is a greater foreign policy challenge. It has immense implications. Just from a national security perspective, take a look at this:

Implications of climate change for national security -- Warning, PDF.

I am not denigrating your side's merits, so chill out. But reality forces me to prioritize when it comes to existential threats. So iran's crazy ass apocalyptic motherfuckers need to be stopped FIRST. And if we manage to save the planet from nuclear destruction, then we can save it again from our own abuses.

118 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:51:41am

re: #113 soxfan4life

That's what they're doing with the legislation to increase the debt ceiling, attaching it to the Defense spending bill.

well of course, then at some convenient time in the future the debt can be blamed on defense spending... they really are running wild.

119 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:52:42am

re: #84 Gang of One

Looks like fauxtoshop to me.

Yeah, it is a Photoshop. I copied the image and opened it up in Photoshop to plop him in the middle of an Ashura riot, but when I enlarged the image the telltale pixellation revealed that it was originally a photoshop.

this is not a Photoshop.

120 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:53:38am

Also!

The Iranian Gov't is barking up a dead bear's ass if they think they're going to stop these protests easily.

These guys have nothing on SAVAK.

121 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:54:16am

re: #119 Alouette


this is not a Photoshop.

It is, however a broken link :(

122 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:54:32am

re: #118 brookly red

well of course, then at some convenient time in the future the debt can be blamed on defense spending due to GWB's unnecessary wars ... they really are running wild.

FTFY

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:58:07am

re: #118 brookly red

well of course, then at some convenient time in the future the debt can be blamed on defense spending... they really are running wild.

Frankly, if we're really planning to try to leave a functioning centralized society in Afghanistan, support for women will have to play a role in it.

124 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 11:58:50am

re: #121 windsagio

It is, however a broken link :(

Beat me to it, Wind.

125 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:00:04pm

re: #122 soxfan4life

I, for one, am already doing this!

re: #124 Gang of One

The advantages of being fast and spammy ;)

126 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #118 brookly red

well of course, then at some convenient time in the future the debt can be blamed on defense spending... they really are running wild.

I, for one, am happy to see our defense spending actually in the budget. For the past 8 years the expenses of the wars was done outside the budget process in emergency spending measures that gave the false appearance of more reasonable annual spending in the budget.

127 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:01:12pm

re: #126 Cineaste

creepy synergy:

Posts within 1 second of each other, same opening line.

(goddamn I'm wired right now)

128 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:01:18pm

re: #121 windsagio

It is, however a broken link :(

OK this should work. try again.

129 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:01:41pm

re: #125 windsagio

I, for one, am already doing this!

re: #124 Gang of One

The advantages of being fast and spammy ;)

Spammy buttock?

130 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:02:26pm

re: #126 Cineaste

I, for one, am happy to see our defense spending actually in the budget. For the past 8 years the expenses of the wars was done outside the budget process in emergency spending measures that gave the false appearance of more reasonable annual spending in the budget.

Do you realize the 1.1 trillion dollar spending bill was to cover what wasn't in the budget?

131 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #128 Alouette

OK this should work. try again.

Was this taken in PA, NJ or NY? I see a Lackawana ...

132 jayzee  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:03:00pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Frankly, if we're really planning to try to leave a functioning centralized society in Afghanistan, support for women will have to play a role in it.

If a society is brutal to 50% of its population, it will be a a negative influence in international matters as well.

133 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:04:59pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Frankly, if we're really planning to try to leave a functioning centralized society in Afghanistan, support for women will have to play a role in it.

can't put the genie back in the bottel huh?

134 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:05:45pm

re: #131 Gang of One

Was this taken in PA, NJ or NY? I see a Lackawana ...

Morningside Park Santa Convention

135 windsagio  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #128 Alouette

Thats pretty brilliant ;)

re: #129 Gang of One

I have no idea what that means!

Also; I'm going to go run around the block twice, too much nervous energy!

TTY'allL!

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:07:22pm

re: #133 brookly red

can't put the genie back in the bottel huh?

I don't know. The genie, as far as I can tell is still IN the bottle as far as Afghan women are concerned, but there's a certain amount of tapping on the stopper going on.

137 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:07:43pm

re: #42 _RememberTonyC

agreed ... but I am so disillusioned with President Obama's public stance towards the Iranian regime that I wonder if he is even doing ANYTHING of a covert nature to help the opposition. Under the previous administration, I would not be wondering about this.


Amen to that sentiment.

138 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #134 Alouette

Morningside Park Santa Convention

OK. Where's that?!

139 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:08:40pm

re: #43 Gang of One

I just sprayed good sake on my monitor, dude!


Isn't it a little early for sake ...Dude?

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:09:06pm

re: #139 Blueheron

Isn't it a little early for sake ...Dude?

I wasn't going to say anything...since I don't know where he is.

141 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:09:09pm

re: #130 soxfan4life

Do you realize the 1.1 trillion dollar spending bill was to cover what wasn't in the budget?

My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that these are bills initiating spending commitments which will have to be in the budget. ie: we are committing to expenses. The expenses for the Afghan and Iraq wars were done through emergency, temporary appropriations bills that would never be accounted for in the budget.

I'm not saying I agree with the money being spent right now, I'm just saying I prefer to see stuff that gets written into the budget than billions and billions that will never appear in a budget to save face.

142 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:10:03pm

re: #135 windsagio

Thats pretty brilliant ;)

re: #129 Gang of One

I have no idea what that means!

Also; I'm going to go run around the block twice, too much nervous energy!

TTY'allL!

It's a play on an old LGFism 'gamy buttock' when we roasted trolls -- not that you're a troll. Bad stab at obscure humor. Enjoy your run, Wind!

143 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:10:17pm

re: #138 Gang of One

OK. Where's that?!

New York City

144 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:10:38pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Certain areas of Afghanistan weren't as backwards as some others. In Kabul, women went to school and held good jobs like nurses. They were modernizing and the Taliban took all of that away from them- brought the backwards aspects of Afghanistan to the cities, and they did a far too good a job of putting that genie back in the bottle. Women would be wise to realize it is possible for this to happen. Just because we make progress doesn't mean we can't lose it.

145 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:10:40pm

re: #139 Blueheron

Isn't it a little early for sake ...Dude?

I did not have any last night. So I'm a little late.
/Kampai!!

146 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:11:10pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

I wasn't going to say anything...since I don't know where he is.

NJ.
/Drink!

147 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:12:36pm

My Forbidden Face: Growing Up Under the Taliban: A Young Woman's Story

This is an amazing book, and tells the story of one family with an educated, professional mother. Moderate Afghani muslims who reject the fundamentalism of the Taliban, and fight back with secret schools for girls, and secret clinics for women. An inspiration.

148 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:12:55pm

re: #53 _RememberTonyC

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world. protests in the USA would be good, but protests across europe would be even better. but many european countries do a lot of trade with the mullahs and I don't believe they give a shit enough to protest.


Europe prefers to keep it's head buried in the sand.

149 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:17:54pm

re: #148 Blueheron

Europe prefers to keep it's head buried in the sand.

Same could be said for the UN. Perhaps if they actually enforced sanctions they might cause change.

150 Achilles Tang  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #53 _RememberTonyC

replacing the current iranian regime with a moderate "non islamist" regime would solve about 50% of the foreign policy issues faced by the world. protests in the USA would be good, but protests across europe would be even better. but many european countries do a lot of trade with the mullahs and I don't believe they give a shit enough to protest.

Non Islamist is wishful thinking. That would take a civil war and military coup, by a non islamist military. Ain't gonna happen. The best that might happen would be a moderate Islamist regime, like the way Turkey is backsliding to, or perhaps Iraq.

151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:19:42pm

I'm glad that I live in a country where I do not necessarily have to be brave to voice my opinion.

God bless these brave souls.

152 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:21:23pm

Without any irony: Thanks a lot for this post, Charles.

153 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:21:38pm

Why it was a bad idea for Republicans to universally oppose stimulus and TARP...
Exhibit A:Pieces for solid 4th quarter falling into place

...the trade deficit and inventory levels, suggest the factory sector is humming, Gault said.

Inventories are at desired levels and manufacturers have to pick up production to maintain them.

A strong industrial output reading in November would bring factory activity better in line with the other readings, he said.

Given the stronger consumption data this past week, fourth-quarter gross domestic product is beginning to look like it could be above 4%, Gault said. Investors won't know for sure until the government releases the fourth-quarter GDP report in late January.


Exhibit B: US stimulus gives Treasury more returns than expected


"We now expect to make–not lose–money on $245 billion in banks. We estimate that major bank stabilisation programs funded through TARP will yield a positive net return of over $19 billion, thanks to dividends, interest, early repayments, and the sale of warrants. In short, taxpayers are being repaid at a substantial profit by banks," he said.

Observing that the repayments are already substantial, he said, to date, banks have returned $116 billion in taxpayer investments – nearly one-third of all TARP disbursements.

"Further, we anticipate that total repayments could reach $175 billion by the end of next year; that is, nearly half of TARP disbursements to date," he said.

154 brucee  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:21:41pm

re: #106 jayzee

Thank you. I don't use Nazi imagery lightly. I try to avoid using it politically at all costs as it demeans the memory of those slaughtered in the holocaust and minimizes the evil of the Nazis. In this case however, fascists are trying to solidify their control and destroy their enemies. The analogy is valid.

Very much true, but you don't even have to go that far. We had our own Reichstag fire in 1978, less than a year before Shah fell and this was very significant in rallying people behind Khomeini:

Cinema Rex Fire

155 Bloodnok  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Wanna buy some gold? I got loads of it...

/

156 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

I wasn't going to say anything...since I don't know where he is.

Well I suppose he could be in like say England...

157 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:24:25pm

re: #155 Bloodnok

Wanna buy some gold? I got loads of it...

/

Nah, I'm saving up for a Gatling gun to protect my bunker.

158 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:24:59pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Even if it could be faked, there were a lot of pictures of Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and Khomeini burnt in the last days. The demonstrations radicalize more and more. For example:

"But in recent months, it has become unclear how much Mr. Moussavi speaks for the opposition, which includes many who appear to be taking a more radical approach and demanding an end to the theocracy. During Monday's demonstrations, there were fewer people with clothing or banners in the trademark bright green color of Mr. Moussavi's presidential campaign. And there were more chants aimed directly at Ayatollah Khamenei - a taboo that has increasingly eroded since the election. In addition to the now common chants of "death to the dictator," some protesters chanted, "Khamenei knows his time is up" on Monday."

159 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #156 Blueheron

Well I suppose he could be in like say England...

I'm in a former colony of England ...

160 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:26:37pm

Attn Hot Air commenters and LGF stalkers: Online death threats towards the President are still illegal...
Ex-Purdue student sentenced in Web threats to Bush

A former Purdue University graduate student convicted of threatening to kill President George W. Bush and others in Internet postings has been sentenced to more than four years in prison.

Thirty-eight-year-old Vikram S. Buddhi, an Indian national who was living in West Lafayette, was sentenced Friday in U.S. District Court in Hammond to 57 months in prison and 3 years of probation.

Buddhi denies he committed any crime and represented himself in court Friday.

He was convicted in 2007 on 11 counts of making threats that were posted in a chat room in 2005 and 2006.

Authorities said Buddhi hijacked online identities of other Purdue students to post messages. The messages justified the murder of Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney and the rape of their wives.

161 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #145 Gang of One

I did not have any last night. So I'm a little late.
/Kampai!!


Ahh I see...OK...enjoy :)

162 soxfan4life  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:28:11pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Why it was a bad idea for Republicans to universally oppose stimulus and TARP...
Exhibit A:Pieces for solid 4th quarter falling into place

Let's wait and see what happens when the stimulus spending dries up, and also the employment figures need to go up not just down less than we expected because January is going to be a bad month once all the seasonal retail help get laid off. If people aren't working come November the GOP might be the party of NO, but the Dems will be the party of no jobs, no economic reform, and no more majority.

163 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:28:30pm

re: #146 Gang of One

NJ.
/Drink!

New Jersey? Well that explains it :))/

164 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

What do you mean?


Congressman Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. was the first African-American elected to Congress from New York, and the first from any Northern state other than Illinois in the Post-Reconstruction Era. ... Powell challenged the informal ban on black representatives using Capitol facilities reserved for white members only. He took black constituents to dine with him in the "whites only" House restaurant. He clashed with the many segregationists in his own party. (quoted from Wikipedia)

Congressman Powell would often attach Civil Rights riders to Congressional Bills. The riders would say something like "This bill shall be enforced if the Civil Rights of the African-American community are granted". He is one of the hero's of the modern civil rights movement.

One thing which I did not like about Powell - though hero he is - is that Powell forced the civil rights leader Bayard Rustin from the SCLC leadership by threatening to expose his (Rustin's) homosexuality. Bayard was one of the brains behind the August 28, 1963 March on Washington in which Dr Martin Luther King Jr gave his famous I have a dream speech

More information on The I Have a Dream speech
Bayard Rustin Wikipedia entry
Among other things, Bayard was a strong supporter of Israel.
Also, the whispering campaign that Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. worked with Communists was based in part on Bayard Rustin's once having been a member of The Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA). Rustin had quit the CPUSA, however, several decades earlier.
Much to say about Bayard Rustin, one of the unsung heroes of America.

165 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:29:44pm

re: #158 gegenkritik

Even if it could be faked, there were a lot of pictures of Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and Khomeini burnt in the last days. The demonstrations radicalize more and more. For example:

It's also worth noting that Moussavi is a thug in his own right. He was a prominent participant in the Embassy hostage situation and was key in the founding of Hezbollah. It is for this reason I think that Obama was 100% correct in not speaking out on his behalf over the summer and that the criticism of Obama was by neocons with rose-colored glasses.

Following Khomeini’s removal of President Abolhassan Bani-Sadr and the execution of Bani-Sadr’s allies in June 1981, Mousavi joined the new government as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Only four months later, the parliament affirmed Mousavi as Iran’s fifth prime minister – a move that The Globe and Mail interpreted as signaling Tehran’s desire to “expand its world role and ‘export’ its Islamic revolution.”

In this regard, Mousavi didn’t disappoint. During his premiership, Iran founded Hezbollah – a Shiite terrorist group based in southern Lebanon with active cells scattered worldwide. For Mousavi, Hezbollah became an important theocratic weapon: in the aftermath of Khomeini’s infamous fatwa against author Salman Rushdie, Mousavi called on Hezbollah to “take the necessary action,” thereby sending Rushdie into hiding. Mousavi’s government further played a central role in planning the violent 1987 Mecca demonstrations, in which Iranian activists sought to destabilize the Saudi regime and recruit Muslim worshippers to their militant cause.

Moreover, on virtually every major issue of U.S.-Iranian contention, Mousavi assumed a confrontational approach during his eight-year term. Beyond his strong opposition to renewing relations with the United States, Mousavi created Iran’s chemical weapons program – catalyzing a deadly naval standoff between Iran and U.S.-backed Arab Gulf states during the late 1980s. Most alarmingly, a recent International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) report stated that Mousavi’s government purchased centrifuges on the black market in 1987, thereby jump-starting the nuclear program that remains at the heart of international concerns regarding Iran today.

Although twenty years have passed since Mousavi last held office, there is little evidence that his views have changed. Indeed, during his 2009 presidential campaign, Mousavi vowed not to bend on Iran’s pursuit of nuclear capabilities, declaring, “We have to have the technology.” Mousavi’s political biography further suggests that, as the LA Times reported, Mousavi will continue Iran’s support for Hamas and Hezbollah.

For these reasons, those supporting Iranians’ fight for fair elections should not be fooled by Mousavi’s symbolism. His reserved tone and sudden populism mask a dark history of religious fanaticism, support for terrorism, and perpetuation of authoritarianism.

166 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:31:41pm

re: #39 Alouette
Yom Holedet Shel-ha.
Yom Holedet Shel-ha,
Yom Holedet Alouette
Yom Holedet Shel-ha

(Happy Birthday, Alouette) (or is it shel-at?)

167 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:31:53pm

re: #149 soxfan4life

Same could be said for the UN. Perhaps if they actually enforced sanctions they might cause change.


The UN is worthless in matters such as these. The only thing they are good for is population relief. Taking supplies to war torn or natural disaster torn lands.

168 yoshicastmaster  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:32:50pm

"the elite Revolutionary Guard, the country’s most powerful military force, called for the trial and punishment of those responsible."

that's scary. sounds like the military is in control.

169 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:33:06pm

re: #162 soxfan4life

Let's wait and see what happens when the stimulus spending dries up, and also the employment figures need to go up not just down less than we expected because January is going to be a bad month once all the seasonal retail help get laid off. If people aren't working come November the GOP might be the party of NO, but the Dems will be the party of no jobs, no economic reform, and no more majority.

Sure, anything can happen. However, I think it's important for conservatives to brace themselves for the possibility of economic recovery. There should have been more reasonable debate on the issue from the right. I strongly suspect they've painted themselves into a corner. It's looking increasingly likely that the economy is starting to grow and employment will improve. Republicans should have positioned themselves to take some credit for the economic recovery.

170 armylaw  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:34:21pm

re: #42 _RememberTonyC

agreed ... but I am so disillusioned with President Obama's public stance towards the Iranian regime that I wonder if he is even doing ANYTHING of a covert nature to help the opposition. Under the previous administration, I would not be wondering about this.

If you (or Iran) knew about it, that would defeat the purpose of a covert action. The slightest whiff of American involvement would damage the credibility of this movement. They are far better off with us on the sidelines.

171 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:34:38pm

re: #159 Gang of One

I'm in a former colony of England ...

Hmmm better hurry up to get the lunch special :))

172 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:34:43pm

re: #168 yoshicastmaster

"the elite Revolutionary Guard, the country’s most powerful military force, called for the trial and punishment of those responsible."

that's scary. sounds like the military is in control.

revolutionary guard = islamist gestapo

173 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:37:39pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

Sure, anything can happen. However, I think it's important for conservatives to brace themselves for the possibility of economic recovery. There should have been more reasonable debate on the issue from the right. I strongly suspect they've painted themselves into a corner. It's looking increasingly likely that the economy is starting to grow and employment will improve. Republicans should have positioned themselves to take some credit for the economic recovery.

And y'all might be counting your chickens also.

174 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:38:06pm

re: #170 armylaw

The slightest whiff of American involvement would damage the credibility of this movement. They are far better off with us on the sidelines.

Are they?
The regime already accuses the US and the west of involvement.
The same was said about Reagan and his support for the Solidarity movement in Poland.

175 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:39:19pm

re: #167 Blueheron

The UN is worthless in matters such as these. The only thing they are good for is population relief. Taking supplies to war torn or natural disaster torn lands.

WHO and the HCR also do a lot of good work.

176 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:39:43pm

re: #170 armylaw

If you (or Iran) knew about it, that would defeat the purpose of a covert action. The slightest whiff of American involvement would damage the credibility of this movement. They are far better off with us on the sidelines.

if the movement leaders ask US to distance ourselves, then we should respect their wishes. but it seems like sending some money and other high tech goodies to help the protesters can be done through intermediaries. And that can be very important and leave no fingerprints. If the mullahs are eventually ousted, I want the winners to know we were there for them.

177 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:41:08pm

re: #174 captdiggs

Are they?
The regime already accuses the US and the west of involvement.
The same was said about Reagan and his support for the Solidarity movement in Poland.

Don't underestimate Persian nationalism. There is no sure fire way to bolster support for the regime in Iran then to have the US become actively involved in their conflict.

178 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:41:08pm

re: #163 Blueheron

New Jersey? Well that explains it :))/


Gang of One sorry. I just realized I am sounding like your Mother :) lol

179 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:42:12pm

re: #176 _RememberTonyC

if the movement leaders ask US to distance ourselves, then we should respect their wishes. but it seems like sending some money and other high tech goodies to help the protesters can be done through intermediaries. And that can be very important and leave no fingerprints. If the mullahs are eventually ousted, I want the winners to know we were there for them.

I suspect the fact that satellite communications, twitter and SMS was getting out over the summer was due, in some part, to moves by the US to keep those systems available.

180 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #170 armylaw

If you (or Iran) knew about it, that would defeat the purpose of a covert action. The slightest whiff of American involvement would damage the credibility of this movement. They are far better off with us on the sidelines.

Quoted for truth.

181 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:42:41pm

re: #165 Cineaste
Of course Moussavi is a thug, he is part of the Islamic Republic, he don't want to overthrow this system, but slightly reform it.

It is for this reason I think that Obama was 100% correct in not speaking out on his behalf over the summer and that the criticism of Obama was by neocons with rose-colored glasses.


No, Obama should have made clear that he is on the side of the Iranian opposition (which only needed Moussavi as a reason to demonstrate). But Obama said that he won't interfere into the internal affairs of Iran and seeks good relationships with the Mullahs.

However, this was over a month ago. I have to admit that I was surprised by Obamas Nobel-prize speech. Maybe there is really some change in Obamas mind and therefor hope for the Iranian opposition.

182 Jaerik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:42:53pm

Unfortunately, it also seems the regime has learned their lesson since the last mass riots. They disabled or gimped all internet access in the country just before these protests were scheduled to take place.

183 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:45:23pm

re: #179 Cineaste

I suspect the fact that satellite communications, twitter and SMS was getting out over the summer was due, in some part, to moves by the US to keep those systems available.

true and a good point ... and it was good business too. twitter is more popular now than it ever was.

184 Racer X  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:46:40pm
185 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:47:05pm

re: #177 Cineaste

Don't underestimate Persian nationalism. There is no sure fire way to bolster support for the regime in Iran then to have the US become actively involved in their conflict.

I disagree. Support for freedom from a brutal theocratic rule does not negate their nationalism.
No one is saying the US should be "active" in ways such as arming the opposition. But moral support for a democratic movement would be living up to our ideals.
Obama is a great orator. This would be a good use of those skills...imo.

186 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:47:09pm

re: #181 gegenkritik

No, Obama should have made clear that he is on the side of the Iranian opposition (which only needed Moussavi as a reason to demonstrate).

Obama spoke, after things starting turning violent, in support of the demonstrators right to free exercise of expression. How should he have said "I support the protesters, but not the person they are protesting for"?

But Obama said that he won't interfere into the internal affairs of Iran and seeks good relationships with the Mullahs.

Do you have a quote for that, I don't recall his saying he wanted a good relationship with the mullahs.

187 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:47:37pm

re: #184 Racer X

Images of Iran

It is a beautiful and cultured country.

188 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:50:22pm

re: #165 Cineaste

re: #185 captdiggs

I disagree. Support for freedom from a brutal theocratic rule does not negate their nationalism.
No one is saying the US should be "active" in ways such as arming the opposition. But moral support for a democratic movement would be living up to our ideals.
Obama is a great orator. This would be a good use of those skills...imo.

i said last week that I thought Pres Obama should give a "shout out" to the iranian opposition during his Nobel acceptance speech. what a wasted opportunity that was.

189 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:51:36pm

re: #186 Cineaste
Obama, one month ago:

I have made it clear that the United States of America wants to move beyond this past, and seeks a relationship with the Islamic Republic of Iran based upon mutual interests and mutual respect. We do not interfere in Iran’s internal affairs.

190 SixDegrees  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:51:53pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Why it was a bad idea for Republicans to universally oppose stimulus and TARP...
Exhibit A:Pieces for solid 4th quarter falling into place

Uh - TARP, at least, had significant Republican support. It was signed by President Bush.

191 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:53:41pm

re: #185 captdiggs

I disagree. Support for freedom from a brutal theocratic rule does not negate their nationalism.
No one is saying the US should be "active" in ways such as arming the opposition. But moral support for a democratic movement would be living up to our ideals.
Obama is a great orator. This would be a good use of those skills...imo.

Wasn't that exactly what he was doing here:

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #166 Stuart Leviton

Yom Holedet Shel-ha.
Yom Holedet Shel-ha,
Yom Holedet Alouette
Yom Holedet Shel-ha

(Happy Birthday, Alouette) (or is it shel-at?)

Shelach?

193 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:55:42pm

re: #189 gegenkritik

Obama, one month ago:

And the rest of the quote:

Iran must choose. We have heard for thirty years what the Iranian government is against; the question, now, is what kind of future it is for. The American people have great respect for the people of Iran and their rich history. The world continues to bear witness to their powerful calls for justice, and their courageous pursuit of universal rights. It is time for the Iranian government to decide whether it wants to focus on the past, or whether it will make the choices that will open the door to greater opportunity, prosperity, and justice for its people.

194 Jaerik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 12:57:33pm

re: #190 SixDegrees

Uh - TARP, at least, had significant Republican support. It was signed by President Bush.

Doesn't matter, dude. They're completely wrapped in historical revisionism now, where both TARP and the Stimulus were 100% Democratic ideas that were pushed through despite the faithfully opposition of the stalwart minority.

For instance, if you point out that $289B of the stimulus was tax cuts, they just scream "You LIE!"

Completely unhinged from reality at this point.

196 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:00:32pm

re: #194 Jaerik

Doesn't matter, dude. They're completely wrapped in historical revisionism now, where both TARP and the Stimulus were 100% Democratic ideas that were pushed through despite the faithfully opposition of the stalwart minority.

For instance, if you point out that $289B of the stimulus was tax cuts, they just scream "You LIE!"

Completely unhinged from reality at this point.

tax cuts to whom?

197 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:02:39pm

re: #193 Cineaste

I must admit those were good words... it is the or else part that I am waiting for.

198 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:03:49pm

re: #193 Cineaste

And then a few weeks later the US recognized the legitimacy of the (fraudulent) elections which completely undermined the opposition.

199 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:04:36pm

re: #198 captdiggs

And then a few weeks later the US recognized the legitimacy of the (fraudulent) elections which completely undermined the opposition.

well yes, there is that...

200 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:05:19pm

re: #197 brookly red

I must admit those were good words... it is the or else part that I am waiting for.

Totally fair. I was more just responding to gengenkritik's comment saying that Obama was saying he wants to buddy up to the Mullah's and hasn't spoken out about the protesters - both assertions are incorrect. That being said, there has been no "or else" offered.

201 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:09:47pm

re: #200 Cineaste

Totally fair. I was more just responding to gengenkritik's comment saying that Obama was saying he wants to buddy up to the Mullah's and hasn't spoken out about the protesters - both assertions are incorrect. That being said, there has been no "or else" offered.

I only worry about the protesters that are encouraged by those words my just get themselves killed waiting for the or else part.

202 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:10:19pm

re: #191 Cineaste

Wasn't that exactly what he was doing here:




i told you three days ago ... that speech is 6 MONTHS OLD. His message loses it's impact if he says it once and never says it again. It shows his lack of commitment to the cause. How many times has Obama spoken of other topics MULTIPLE TIMES? He has not given this enough of his "juice."

203 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:11:27pm

IIRC Obama mentioned something about the end of this year as some sort of deadline on the nuclear bomb issue. Perhaps when he is done celebrating his Nobel (no Bush) prize and the rest of the farce in Hopenhagen, he will review his notes and turn his attention to the Mullah dictatorship.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:11:52pm

re: #202 _RememberTonyC

i told you three days ago ... that speech is 6 MONTHS OLD. His message loses it's impact if he says it once and never says it again. It shows his lack of commitment to the cause. How many times has Obama spoken of other topics MULTIPLE TIMES? He has not given this enough of his "juice."

There is still a real possibility that a. Israel will take out the Iranian nuclear program, or b. The U.S. will take some sort of military intervention in Iran.

I'm not sure I want the President running around running his mouth in the months prior to that.

205 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:12:09pm

re: #198 captdiggs

And then a few weeks later the US recognized the legitimacy of the (fraudulent) elections which completely undermined the opposition.

The US did no such thing. They acknowledged that Ahmadinejad had been innaugurated and was serving as president but they did not state that the elections were legitimate:

On Air Force One today, Gibbs told reporters that he wanted to "correct a little bit of what I said yesterday. I denoted that Mr. Ahmadinejad was the elected leader of Iran. I would say it's not for me to pass judgment on. He's been inaugurated, that's a fact. Whether any election was fair, obviously the Iranian people still have questions about that and we'll let them decide that. But I would simply say he's been inaugurated and we know that is simply a fact.:

Asked if the White House recognizes Ahmadinehad as the leader, elected fairly or not, Gibbs said it's not "for us to denote his legitimacy, except to acknowledge the fact."

Does the White House think the election was fair?

"That's not for us to pass judgment on," Gibbs said. "I think that's for the Iranian people to decide, and obviously there are many that still have a lot of questions."

Today in Kenya, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said of Ahmadinejad, “we don't always get to deal with the government that we want to…We take the reality that the person who was inaugurated today will be considered the president.”

Clinton said Iran's leadership must still address the legitimate complaints about June's elections by a significant part of the population.

"Obviously the United States and many countries, spoke out against the flawed election and all of the irregularities, as well as the response to the legitimate demonstrations and protests of Iranians who did not believe their votes were counted fairly and that the outcome did not reflect in their view the will of the people,” Clinton said. “That ferment, and the foment, is still going on inside of Iran, we saw it today, a number of protesters outside the inaugural ceremonies. It is not abating, and that is for the Iranian people and the authorities to deal with."

206 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:13:27pm
207 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:14:13pm

re: #202 _RememberTonyC

i told you three days ago ... that speech is 6 MONTHS OLD. His message loses it's impact if he says it once and never says it again. It shows his lack of commitment to the cause. How many times has Obama spoken of other topics MULTIPLE TIMES? He has not given this enough of his "juice."

I just haven't a clue what is gained by the president making multiple speeches about Iran right now.

208 Jaerik  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:15:34pm

re: #196 brookly red

tax cuts to whom?

Payroll Tax Cuts
Homebuyer Tax Credit
C Corp Tax Cuts
Carbuyer Tax Credit
Education Tax Credits
Business Depreciation Modifications
Alternative Minimum Tax Reduction Extension

Etc, etc. Quite a bit, really. Full text is here:

[Link: tax.cchgroup.com...]

Trust me, I was against both bailouts. But Republicans now claiming that TARP was the Democrats' idea, and that the Stimulus was pushed through as a 100% spending bill with no bipartisan negotiation, is laughably disingenuous.

209 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:16:11pm

re: #201 brookly red

I only worry about the protesters that are encouraged by those words my just get themselves killed waiting for the or else part.

I fear that it doesn't matter what the "or else" part is - the regime will kill protesters when the regime wants to kill protesters. What could we say that will stop that?

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:17:08pm

re: #209 Cineaste

I fear that it doesn't matter what the "or else" part is - the regime will kill protesters when the regime wants to kill protesters. What could we say that will stop that?

And if we give the impression that we can do anything for them, we'll be goddamn lying to them.

211 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:17:13pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

There is still a real possibility that a. Israel will take out the Iranian nuclear program, or b. The U.S. will take some sort of military intervention in Iran.

I'm not sure I want the President running around running his mouth in the months prior to that.

all options SHOULD be open. but Pres Obama is a gifted speaker who should find a way to apply his best skill to a serious problem that needs to be solved. he doesn't need to beat the drums for war. he needs to beat the drum for the "kids" who want a better iran. he could help to frame the international debate on iran in a way that could increase the pressure on the mullahs. it's not warmongering, it's making a humanitarian plea for the world to consider.

212 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:17:32pm

Change is not coming to Iran without force. I hope that the internal force is sufficient, but I am not optimistic.

213 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:17:52pm

re: #207 Cineaste

I just haven't a clue what is gained by the president making multiple speeches about Iran right now.

see #211

214 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:18:56pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

And if we give the impression that we can do anything for them, we'll be goddamn lying to them.

And if we give the impression that we can will do anything for them, we'll be goddamn lying to them.

215 Gus  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:19:57pm

re: #202 _RememberTonyC

i told you three days ago ... that speech is 6 MONTHS OLD. His message loses it's impact if he says it once and never says it again. It shows his lack of commitment to the cause. How many times has Obama spoken of other topics MULTIPLE TIMES? He has not given this enough of his "juice."

Perhaps you missed his speech in acceptance of the Nobel?

Excerpts:

...

So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung San Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. It is telling that the leaders of these governments fear the aspirations of their own people more than the power of any other nation. And it is the responsibility of all free people and free nations to make clear to these movements that hope and history are on their side

...

So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung San Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. It is telling that the leaders of these governments fear the aspirations of their own people more than the power of any other nation. And it is the responsibility of all free people and free nations to make clear to these movements that hope and history are on their side.

Let me also say this: The promotion of human rights cannot be about exhortation alone. At times, it must be coupled with painstaking diplomacy. I know that engagement with repressive regimes lacks the satisfying purity of indignation. But I also know that sanctions without outreach -- and condemnation without discussion -- can carry forward a crippling status quo. No repressive regime can move down a new path unless it has the choice of an open door.

This was only three days ago.

216 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:20:02pm

re: #205 Cineaste

Yeah, Gibbs was told to correct a statement that caused an uproar.
That's called CYA.

This was the first statement.

WASHINGTON – White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is "the elected leader" of the Islamic republic . Gibbs was asked Tuesday if The White House recognized Ahmadinejad as the country's legitimate president. "He's the elected leader," Gibbs responded.
[Link: celebrifi.com...]

217 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:21:11pm

re: #215 Gus 802

This was only three days ago.

I'm glad he took my advice from earlier in the week. I stand corrected. Thank you.

218 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #211 _RememberTonyC

all options SHOULD be open. but Pres Obama is a gifted speaker who should find a way to apply his best skill to a serious problem that needs to be solved. he doesn't need to beat the drums for war. he needs to beat the drum for the "kids" who want a better iran. he could help to frame the international debate on iran in a way that could increase the pressure on the mullahs. it's not warmongering, it's making a humanitarian plea for the world to consider.

I don't disagree. What should he say?

219 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:21:46pm

re: #209 Cineaste

I fear that it doesn't matter what the "or else" part is - the regime will kill protesters when the regime wants to kill protesters. What could we say that will stop that?

true we can't say anything...
well we could say, how is Saddam doing these days?

220 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:22:46pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Attn Hot Air commenters and LGF stalkers: Online death threats towards the President are still illegal...
Ex-Purdue student sentenced in Web threats to Bush

Excellent, another good lesson in cause and effect. Looks like the evil Obammunist Justice Department didn't cut the wanker any slack either.

221 Gus  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:23:16pm

re: #217 _RememberTonyC

I'm glad he took my advice from earlier in the week. I stand corrected. Thank you.

You're welcome. Reading now that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is warning Latin American countries on close ties with Iran.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:23:27pm

re: #219 brookly red

true we can't say anything...
well we could say, how is Saddam doing these days?

Holy crap. You really want we should openly threaten an invasion?

Just tell me you're not one of the folks who's upset that he telegraphed a pull-out date in Afghanistan.

223 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:23:35pm

re: #219 brookly red

true we can't say anything...
well we could say, how is Saddam doing these days?

That would be an pointless, empty threat, even if it were uttered under the Bush Admin.

224 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #218 Cineaste

I don't disagree. What should he say?

he needs to find out what the countries who COULD do something to help out WANT to hear. And if he can craft a message that pushes the right buttons, he should. This is supposed to be his greatest strength. he also needs to appeal to the youth of the free world to support the students under siege in iran. he doesn't need to make a bunch of speeches, but he needs to make FREQUENT REFERENCES to the situation in order to help the momentum of the good guys.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:25:04pm

re: #220 Shiplord Kirel

Excellent, another good lesson in cause and effect. Looks like the evil Obammunist Justice Department didn't cut the wanker any slack either.

Good Lord.

226 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:25:26pm

re: #216 captdiggs

Yeah, Gibbs was told to correct a statement that caused an uproar.
That's called CYA.

This was the first statement.

WASHINGTON – White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is "the elected leader" of the Islamic republic . Gibbs was asked Tuesday if The White House recognized Ahmadinejad as the country's legitimate president. "He's the elected leader," Gibbs responded.
[Link: celebrifi.com...]

I think between his statements and those of our secretary of state, the administration position was clear. He clarified & corrected his previous statement but, again, even in the previous statement he never said it was legitimate. Ahmadinejad was (and is) the illegimately elected leader of Iran. In either scenario, he is the HPIC (Head Persian In Charge)...

227 Gus  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:25:29pm

Clinton slams Iran as major exporter of terror

Washington (CNN) -- With signs of growing international support for pressure on Iran, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton lashed out at Tehran and the Revolutionary Guard military corps Friday, calling the country "the major supporter, promoter and exporter of terrorism in the world today.

...

and

Hillary Clinton warns Latin America off close Iran ties

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has called on Latin American countries not to get too close to Iran.

Mrs Clinton said countries such as Venezuela and Bolivia should "think twice" about the consequences of their ties with the Islamic Republic.

...

228 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:25:55pm

re: #221 Gus 802

You're welcome. Reading now that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is warning Latin American countries on close ties with Iran.

Hillary has been a very solid Sec of State. At least so far ...

229 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:26:06pm

re: #219 brookly red

true we can't say anything...
well we could say, how is Saddam doing these days?

But that implies we're willing to send the 1st ID and 101st Airborne into Tehran which, let's be honest, we're not...

230 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:26:32pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

There is some confusion, the attacker may have assaulted him with "a miniature metal souvenir of Milan's Duomo" he was at a rally in front of the Duomo.

231 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:27:03pm

A little Jewish boy on line at the department store to ask Santa for a gift.
Santa says to him, "What would you like for Christmas?"
The boy says, "I'm Jewish. I celebrate Hanukah."
Santa says, "A brochoh on your kepeleh."

232 Gus  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:27:23pm

re: #228 _RememberTonyC

Hillary has been a very solid Sec of State. At least so far ...

I've been rather impressed as well. She displays a great deal of strength and commitment.

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:28:12pm

re: #230 Bagua

There is some confusion, the attacker may have assaulted him with "a miniature metal souvenir of Milan's Duomo" he was at a rally in front of the Duomo.

That's extremely weird, but I guess is pretty much in a day's work for the Premier of Italy.

234 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:28:25pm

re: #232 Gus 802

I've been rather impressed as well. She displays a great deal of strength and commitment.

and we know she has balls :)

235 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:29:00pm

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

That's extremely weird, but I guess is pretty much in a day's work for the Premier of Italy.

Frankly, I'm surprised this didn't happen to him sooner.

236 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:29:11pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

can't say that i remember the specific atrribution - could have been to the elections anniversary, but i seem to remember it was being a general flash point, not the precise anniv.

Can't be sure though.

237 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:29:12pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Holy crap. You really want we should openly threaten an invasion?

Just tell me you're not one of the folks who's upset that he telegraphed a pull-out date in Afghanistan.

It would indeed be a good time for the US to start flexing its muscles at Iran.

238 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:29:25pm

re: #231 Stuart Leviton

A little Jewish boy on line at the department store to ask Santa for a gift.
Santa says to him, "What would you like for Christmas?"
The boy says, "I'm Jewish. I celebrate Hanukah."
Santa says, "A brochoh on your kepeleh."

For the Yiddish impaired: Santa says, "a blessing on your little head."

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:29:26pm

re: #235 Varek Raith

Frankly, I'm surprised this didn't happen to him sooner.

I like your avatar, BTW.

240 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:30:12pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

I like your avatar, BTW.

Thanks. :)

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:30:36pm

re: #237 Bagua

It would indeed be a good time for the US to start flexing its muscles at Iran.

To what end?

242 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:30:41pm

re: #224 _RememberTonyC

he needs to find out what the countries who COULD do something to help out WANT to hear. And if he can craft a message that pushes the right buttons, he should. This is supposed to be his greatest strength. he also needs to appeal to the youth of the free world to support the students under siege in iran. he doesn't need to make a bunch of speeches, but he needs to make FREQUENT REFERENCES to the situation in order to help the momentum of the good guys.

The President of the United States, while receiving a Nobel Peace Prize, devotes to paragraphs to their struggle. If they want to hear something, there it is.

That being said, don't you think Iran has been pretty high on the agenda of talking points during his meetings with the Russians & Chinese (the only two countries that matter re: Iran)?

243 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:32:51pm

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

That's extremely weird, but I guess is pretty much in a day's work for the Premier of Italy.

Italy is a pretty wild place, but this is beyond the pale, attacking a 73 year old man like this is attempted murder. I hope the attacker spends several decades in the Penitenziaria.

244 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:32:51pm

re: #242 Cineaste

The President of the United States, while receiving a Nobel Peace Prize, devotes to TWO paragraphs to their struggle. If they want to hear something, there it is.

PIMF!

245 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:33:54pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

To what end?

The end of the Mullah Dictatorship.

246 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:34:04pm

re: #242 Cineaste

The President of the United States, while receiving a Nobel Peace Prize, devotes to paragraphs to their struggle. If they want to hear something, there it is.

That being said, don't you think Iran has been pretty high on the agenda of talking points during his meetings with the Russians & Chinese (the only two countries that matter re: Iran)?

If I had one wish about world events, it would be that iran cracks wide open under President Obama. I promise to give him proper credit if that happens. My criticism of his handling of iran always comes with suggestions because I want him to be succesful. I don't just rip him.

247 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:34:32pm

re: #235 Varek Raith

Frankly, I'm surprised this didn't happen to him sooner.

I trust that is not a show of support for the attacker?

248 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:34:32pm

re: #237 Bagua

Iran knows, we know, Israel knows, the europeans know infact everybody outside very small clique (three of whom being the voices in John Bolton's head) know that we do not have the man power capabillity to threaten Iran with anything more than some special forces hit and runs.

The militarys of Britain and America have been stretched to their absolute limits fighting a war on two hot fronts - with many more deployments around the world from Sierra Leone to the Balkans... find a half a million combat ready, fit and capable soldiers equipped and deployable - if you can, mazeltov, if not the sabre rattling is entirely without merit.

249 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:35:08pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Holy crap. You really want we should openly threaten an invasion?

Just tell me you're not one of the folks who's upset that he telegraphed a pull-out date in Afghanistan.

no we should not, & yes I am.

250 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #247 Bagua

Nope. just an expression of suprise that it hasn't happened sooner - as he is not - to put it politely - universally loved.

251 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:36:06pm

re: #248 wozzablog

You obviously know little about the US military capabilities.

252 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:37:11pm

re: #250 wozzablog

Nope. just an expression of suprise that it hasn't happened sooner - as he is not - to put it politely - universally loved.

Why are you answering for Varek Raith?

253 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:37:41pm

re: #251 Bagua

You obviously know little about the US military capabilities.

well capabilites & resolve are 2 different things...

254 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:38:21pm

re: #248 wozzablog

Down ding for the "voices in John Bolton's head" snark.

255 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:39:39pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

To what end?

The Soviet Union went down without a shot being fired.

256 captdiggs  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:39:50pm

re: #226 Cineaste

Obama wants to be seen as the opposite of Bush. He is reluctant to do anything that smacks of support for "regime change".
That's the bottom line.
That's why his initial statements on Iran were lukewarm and only ratcheted up under the pressure of outside criticism.

None of this will help Obama in the nuclear issue, which is why he was so cautious in his early responses ( some of which also undermined the opposition).
He wants to negotiate with a regime that will never negotiate in good faith.

257 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:41:27pm

john bolton is a bit too blunt for the faint of heart crowd. I think he is a very credible man.

258 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:42:38pm

re: #255 brookly red

The Soviet Union went down without a shot being fired.

Exactly, and Iran's nuclear program and dictatorship could both be reduced to rubble without a single American entering the country on foot. The Airforce and Navy is far fro "overstretched".

Iran is a paper tiger to the US lion.

259 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:44:03pm

re: #251 Bagua

I was at dinner last night with a very dear girl friend in tears because her brother has just been rotated into Afghanistan after three tours in Iraq.

She saw him after his second tour - he was banged up, knocked about and in a helluva state mentally - yet his entire unit has been put through the wringer yet again for Obama's newest surge into Afghanistan.

Stop loss, looting of home state national guards, ever decreasing breaks between tours and ripped apart familys - your right, i know nothing.

On that i'm going to drop everything - put the Team America sound track on, listen to the Best Of John Bolton (Live At the Heritage Foundation) and watch Fox News Sunday... then and only then shall i understand the true might of America,

Screw the experience of the people on the ground - 5 tours, 6 tours, 7 tours... hell, keep every man jack of them there and move them through 3 hot wars with the only gap the sleep they will have on the plane.

Hell - lets take on China while we are at it...

260 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #252 Bagua

Because i've read his comments before and i don't believe he is infavour of commiting personal acts of violence.

261 brookly red  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:45:01pm

re: #258 Bagua

Exactly, and Iran's nuclear program and dictatorship could both be reduced to rubble without a single American entering the country on foot. The Airforce and Navy is far fro "overstretched".

Iran is a paper tiger to the US lion.

yes but the SU knew for a fact we would... these guys are betting we won't & that is the problem.

262 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:45:43pm

re: #256 captdiggs

Obama wants to be seen as the opposite of Bush. He is reluctant to do anything that smacks of support for "regime change".
That's the bottom line.
That's why his initial statements on Iran were lukewarm and only ratcheted up under the pressure of outside criticism.

None of this will help Obama in the nuclear issue, which is why he was so cautious in his early responses ( some of which also undermined the opposition).
He wants to negotiate with a regime that will never negotiate in good faith.

The verdict is far from certain with regards to Obama and Iran. He mentioned an end of the year deadline of sorts, IIRC, and he has greatly ramped up the fight in Afghanistan, while keeping the pressure on Pakistan and Iraq.

Nobel Peace joke notwithstanding:

Obama is a wartime president and he is not shrinking from that role.

263 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:45:44pm

re: #247 Bagua

I trust that is not a show of support for the attacker?

Oh, not at all. Sorry for not wording that better.

264 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:45:46pm

Down dings away...

I'm off.


(sound of the Road Runner...)

265 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:47:46pm

re: #259 wozzablog

Yes, I know you are a dedicated leftist, I'd be happy to have an actual discussion if you dropped the wild propaganda first.

266 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:47:58pm

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #14 solomonpanting

Political cartoons and buring photos. Imagine the reaction if something really horrendous were to transpire.

Something really horrendous has transpired. It took place inside Evin Prison, however, and was not run on TV.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.
Some Muslims folks demonstrate, riot and kill because of some published political cartoons. Horrendous? Only if one is a very sensitive to such publishings.
Some Muslims folks desire to crack down on opponents because of faked, or not, burnings of photos. Horrendeous? Only if one is very sensitive to such burnings.

267 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:51:35pm

re: #263 Varek Raith

Oh, not at all. Sorry for not wording that better.

Thanks, I figured as much.

re: #261 brookly red

yes but the SU knew for a fact we would... these guys are betting we won't & that is the problem.

But consider that was the biggest bluff game in history, we were never going to invade the Soviet Union, not in the most wild scenarios. Iran is small beer by comparison.

268 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:52:02pm

re: #265 Bagua

Hey - fair enough.

But being a leftist has nothing to do with creating ones own assesment of the capabillities of nations militarys after hearing how they are being rotated through.

Find your half a million men it would take to win Iran - and i don't mean win Iran like we "won" Iraq. I mean WIN, win and HOLD.

Find them without destroying the familys of men who have been stop lossed, find them without the men on their 4th and 5th tours without break - find them and it's yours. Find them - and be able to replace them - because by God it will be harder than Iraq.

269 Bagua  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 1:57:45pm

re: #268 wozzablog

First off, we don't need to invade Iran with 500,000 men. The Airforce and Navy could reduce their Nuclear program and missile program to rubble.

Ditto if the objective became attacking the Mullah regime and Republican Guards. Air and Naval assets would bring them to their knees.

Lets have a decade of this, similar to Iraq, and then consider if an invasion was necessary.

270 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 2:58:23pm

re: #269 Bagua

350,000 was considered a pre-requisite by Military planners for Iraq and we went with a lot less.

If we thought the last 6 years of what happened in Iraq was - uncomfortable - it will be as nothing to an invasion of Iran.

I talk often in my metropolitan elite set - with a Journalist who visits Tehran who has drunk with young people under the hookah bars and been to the illicit music venues - the young people there have no love for the Religious fanatics who run their country. They do though have a great love for that same country and would not take kindly to it's being attacked from outside.

An invasion of Iran - which has a better aiforce than Iraq had, which had a better Navy than Iraq had, which has a better and bigger standing army than Iraq had, which has a far superior forign agency available to it than Iraq had - and it is a country to whom many of the worlds most violent extremists owe much much more than they did to Iraq.

An large scale attack on Iran would provoke such as has not been seen.

The crippling of an airforce and a navy can be done relatively easily, from great distance - but to invade and hold such a place - with the number of available troops, just look how hard it was to find 30,000 for the push in Afghanistan - no, it won't and couldn't happen without slaughter on the grandest of scales.

A war on a third front now or tomorrow would be suicidal - the Military is like a well, you can only go to it so many times before it is exhausted completely, it needs time to replenish. Giving the troops in theatre now no sign of respite for the next 3, 4, 5, 10, 15years does nothing for them. They are not chrachters in some computer game - slap on some medkits and send them back out at 100%.

The more tours an individual soldier does the less likely they are to come back - they arrive Green, become acclimatised and aware - useful - and after that point the curve drifts downwards once exhaustion and mental damage kicks in. Constant pointless sabre rattling does nothing.

271 bombarafat  Sun, Dec 13, 2009 3:56:19pm

May G-D strengthen the people of Iran to keep standing up to the ayatollahs and amaddinnerjacket.

272 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 12:24:36pm

re: #193 Cineaste

And the rest of the quote:


And? Does this change the fact that Obama said he won't interefere in Iran's internal affairs and that he seeks good relationships with the Mullahs?


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