The Huge Al Gore Mistake That Wasn’t

Environment • Views: 17,843

All the right wing blogs and climate change denial sites are linking to this story: Inconvenient truth for Al Gore as his North Pole sums don’t add up.

Mr Gore, speaking at the Copenhagen climate change summit, stated the latest research showed that the Arctic could be completely ice-free in five years.

In his speech, Mr Gore told the conference: “These figures are fresh. Some of the models suggest to Dr [Wieslav] Maslowski that there is a 75 per cent chance that the entire north polar ice cap, during the summer months, could be completely ice-free within five to seven years.”

However, the climatologist whose work Mr Gore was relying upon dropped the former Vice-President in the water with an icy blast. “It’s unclear to me how this figure was arrived at,” Dr Maslowski said. “I would never try to estimate likelihood at anything as exact as this.”

Mr Gore’s office later admitted that the 75 per cent figure was one used by Dr Maslowksi as a “ballpark figure” several years ago in a conversation with Mr Gore.

Oops, that sounds like quite a boo-boo for Gore. Disproves global warming, right?

Well, actually, no it wasn’t, and no it doesn’t. Because Maslowski did predict that all the Arctic ice could melt by the next decade. From an interview with Maslowski in February of this year (and he’s on record in several places making this statement): Wieslaw Maslowski’s research suggests ice-free summers in Arctic by next decade | EarthSky.

Wieslaw Maslowski: We’re suggesting that sometime between 2010 and 2016, we might melt all this multi-year ice cover during summer in the Arctic.

Other estimates have predicted we won’t see ice-free summers for decades yet. But Maslowski said that these estimates don’t account for the loss of ice thickness.

Wieslaw Maslowski: This total volume loss, which is mostly controlled by the ice thickness loss, has been basically twice as fast as the surface loss observed by satellites.

Maslowski said the Arctic ice loss is a continually accelerating cycle that’s being amplified by global warming. When the Arctic sun shines on open water, rather than reflective ice, the ocean absorbs and stores more of the sun’s heat. Warmer ocean temperatures melt the ice from below, while warmer air temperatures melt it from above.

Wieslaw Maslowski: It’s basically a positive feedback loop, which is saying one change leads to even further changes.

Looks like Al Gore wasn’t wrong after all. His figure of 75% certainty may not reflect Maslowski’s exact thinking, but it’s abundantly clear that this was an extremely minor error. Maslowski took issue with a very narrow point — the 75% estimation that Gore made. And once again, it’s being blown up unrecognizably out of proportion by the denialosphere.

But it’s vital to realize that whether the actual percentage of certainty that the Arctic ice cap will vanish is 75% or some other figure, it doesn’t change the fact that the findings of the current research are extremely disturbing.

Also see

And for graphic evidence of this disaster in waiting, here’s one of the satellite images kept classified by the Bush administration, and recently released by the Obama administration, available at the US Geological Survey website: Global Fiducials Library.

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536 comments
1 Locker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:28:24pm

Why are you trying to deny Gore-Climate-Icegate?? You know Gore is a secretly paid spokes-model for Carrier Air Conditioning right?

2 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:30:37pm

re: #1 Locker

Why are you trying to deny Gore-Climate-Icegate?? You know Gore is a secretly paid spokes-model for Carrier Air Conditioning right?


Most global warming research is done using the interwebs, which Gore invented and filled the tubes of with socialism. So ho can we trust it?

Show me AGW’s birth certificate!

/

3 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:30:55pm

Here’s a short NASA video on polar ice, and it’s importance to our climate

4 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:32:41pm

On a related note, this week is the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union:

[Link: www.agu.org…]

A tremendous number of presentations and posters. There are some webcasts and video feeds. Usually there are one or two presentations video recorded that stand out as being especially informative (though obviously we won’t know until we see them!)

5 Bob Dillon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:33:16pm

Ahhhh …. Barrow - cool place.

6 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:33:22pm

I am no fan of Al Gore’s. What impressed me about the story was that Maslowski clarified the issue and put his (dire) predictions in the proper perspective. I found this to be intellectually honest.

7 Mark Pennington  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:34:17pm

GDS indeed. Fantastic entry as usual, Charles.

8 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:34:31pm

Speaking of the AGU annual meeting, it should be noted that Maslowski at the 2007 meeting was one of those predicting a definite quickening in the melting of Arctic sea ice.

9 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:36:48pm

In related news…

Rich nations must assume environmental duties: pope

How rich is the Vatican again?

10 BEAM  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:37:29pm

The dumbest thing the enviro activists could do at this point is waste any more time and energy defending Al Gore. His hypocrisy and arrogance will come back to bite you in the ass every time. He’s a perfect distraction for the skeptics and you’re playing right into it.

11 Bob Dillon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:37:56pm

[Link: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu…]

A webspace devoted to the current state
of our cryosphere

Latest regional sea ice coverage and anomalies

12 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:38:24pm

Gore is a douche and the worst possible spokesman for AGW. The scientists need to drop him like a hot rock.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:39:16pm

re: #9 JasonA

In related news…

Rich nations must assume environmental duties: pope

How rich is the Vatican again?

Would be nice if they chipped in.

14 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:39:51pm

re: #10 BEAM

Another sleeper awakes. Your last comment was two years ago. Have you been asleep under a tree somewhere?

15 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:40:50pm

Here is a short Crock of the Week video on polar ice I hope people will watch

16 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:42:49pm

re: #12 rwdflynavy

He is nowhere near the worst possible spokesperson on AGW. And the scientists aren’t ‘holding’ him, so they can’t really drop him.

he does, in general, an excellent job of representing the science, screwing up very rarely. Real scientists screw up as well.

I do not think Gore should be the figurehead, precisely because so many people have an irrational dislike of him. That doesn’t mean that the dislike is not irrational, or that I have to excuse anyone who is foolish enough to decide their minds about AGW based on a dislike of Al Gore.

17 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:43:31pm
If this trend persists the Arctic Ocean will become ice-free by ~2013!

From:

When will Summer Arctic Sea Ice Disappear?
Wieslaw Maslowski
Naval Postgraduate School

Sustainability Weeks 2008 – Symposium on Drastic Change in the Earth System during Global Warming
Sapporo, Japan, 24 June 2008

PDF

18 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:43:52pm

re: #16 Obdicut

He is nowhere near the worst possible spokesperson on AGW. And the scientists aren’t ‘holding’ him, so they can’t really drop him.

he does, in general, an excellent job of representing the science, screwing up very rarely. Real scientists screw up as well.

I do not think Gore should be the figurehead, precisely because so many people have an irrational dislike of him. That doesn’t mean that the dislike is not irrational, or that I have to excuse anyone who is foolish enough to decide their minds about AGW based on a dislike of Al Gore.

Well said.

19 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:44:12pm

re: #6 jayzee

The problem scientists face when it comes to “predictions” is that while they understand the likelihood of a prediction being realized, the layman are often unaware of the (rather arcane) concepts of probability and statistics.

It is a frustrating exercise to try and explain the idea of what a scientist might mean by “likely” to a non-scientist.

The unethical pundits know how to exploit this. Monckton did it before a Congressional hearing, wrt CO2 increase in the atmosphere.

The “global cooling” meme, and the “models were wrong” meme are based on exploiting the ignorance of laymen about the (very arcane) subjects of estimation, probability, chaos, and randomness.

20 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:45:14pm

re: #16 Obdicut

He is nowhere near the worst possible spokesperson on AGW. And the scientists aren’t ‘holding’ him, so they can’t really drop him.

he does, in general, an excellent job of representing the science, screwing up very rarely. Real scientists screw up as well.

I do not think Gore should be the figurehead, precisely because so many people have an irrational dislike of him. That doesn’t mean that the dislike is not irrational, or that I have to excuse anyone who is foolish enough to decide their minds about AGW based on a dislike of Al Gore.

Now that is a good explanation.

21 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:45:20pm

re: #5 Bobibutu

Ahhh … Barrow - cool place.

updinged, and booed.

22 whtokbyu  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:45:34pm

Obama Care is on a Cliff! Quote says Health Care is at a precipice, did he mean a pinnacle?

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

23 Jaerik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:48:14pm

Denialists have said they need 100% proof, with no margin of error, no conflicting scientific models, and absolutely zero wiggle room for doubt in the science before they’ll admit there’s a problem.

Which is interesting, given their fallback answer is the 0% proven, 100% margin of error, massively self-contradictory, infinitely large wiggle-room explanation of “God did it.”

24 The Curmudgeon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:49:21pm

I, for one, welcome an ice-free pole. It’s the Northwest Passage at last! No more tolls for the Panama Canal!

(Hey, why not look on the bright side?)

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:49:45pm

Once again, we see the same old same old.

This very blog has posted the melting of the arctic. Charles himself has posted about this and that the there was a North West passage last summer! And that is not about Charles, that is about I know you all were here when he posted it and saw you comment!

It was from NASA originally!

Yet people here buy this crap from a conservative newspaper.

That is why it is so shocking.

26 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:50:32pm

re: #24 The Curmudgeon

You might want to watch the two videos I posted. The polar ice helps drive ocean currents.

27 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:50:35pm

Great.. I wonder how many Woolly Mammoths are wreaking havoc after having been freed from all this ice melting

28 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:51:12pm

re: #16 Obdicut

You don’t have to excuse anyone that will disregard science because of Al Gore, but it is a problem. Trust me, I am (was) one of those people. I still feel there is an exploitation of the science by both sides for various religious, political, social reasons and it turned me off to the whole concept of AGW for a long time. We all would be better served if we slapped ties on the nerds and circumvented the politicians to explain to the people what is going on and what we can do.

29 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:51:13pm

Arctic summers ice-free ‘by 2013’
By Jonathan Amos
Science reporter, BBC News, San Francisco

“Our projection of 2013 for the removal of ice in summer is not accounting for the last two minima, in 2005 and 2007,” the researcher from the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California, explained to the BBC. “So given that fact, you can argue that may be our projection of 2013 is already too conservative.”

Wieslaw Maslowski

30 Jaerik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:51:40pm

re: #22 whtokbyu

Obama Care is on a Cliff! Quote says Health Care is at a precipice, did he mean a pinnacle?

No, because a pinnacle would also mean there’s nowhere to go but down.

So, you’re both wrong. And what does that have to do with the current topic?

31 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:52:29pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

Here is a short Crock of the Week video on polar ice I hope people will watch


[Video]

Still watching the first one…

32 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:53:21pm

re: #28 jayzee

I agree that the scientists would make better spokespeople. Well: a very, very small subset of the scientists who can manage public speaking would.

33 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:55:27pm

how long did it take for the polar ice cap to melt…by what means will it refreeze, so that effects normal weather patterns?

34 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:56:21pm

Give that Wieslaw Maslowski had been predicting with certainty that the Arctic cap would have ice free summers by 2013 Gore’s estimate of 75% within 5 to 7 years is actually a more conservative assessment compared to Maslowski’s.

Roughly it would be like this:

Wieslaw Maslowski - 100% probability ice free by 2013.

Al Gore - 75% probability between 2015 and 2017.

35 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:58:44pm

I hereby conclude that Al Gore’s comment regarding a 75% probability of an ice-free summer Arctic a nontroversy.

Case dismissed.

36 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:59:41pm

So… Bush purposely hid scientific evidence from the public, and Gore is the lying sleazeball?

37 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:00:46pm

re: #31 BruceKelly

Still watching the first one…

NASA is a great resource for climate change information. On their climate home page you can see exactly how much the seas have risen, how many parts per million CO2 levels are at, and of course- they have news releases and all sorts of other information.

[Link: climate.nasa.gov…]

Here’s a report on Himalayan glaciers from NASA

Black Carbon Deposits on Himalayan Ice Threaten Earth’s “Third Pole”

Black soot deposited on Tibetan glaciers has contributed significantly to the retreat of the world’s largest non-polar ice masses, according to new research by scientists from NASA and the Chinese Academy of Sciences. Soot absorbs incoming solar radiation and can speed glacial melting when deposited on snow in sufficient quantities.

There are a number of reasons to be concerned about the Himalayan glaciers melting- plenty of articles about it if one wants to go searching, but mostly we have millions of people who live in the river systems born from these glaciers. What will happen to them when their rivers have no source of water?

38 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:00:48pm

re: #3 Sharmuta


I trust NASA more than anyone else in this debate. If they have a dog in this race, I can’t see him.

39 darthstar  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:02:35pm

The photos of Barrow, Alaska speak for themselves. There is no snark appropriate to that image.

40 ckb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:02:52pm

Sea ice forms along the coast in the winter, and generally melts or breaks away by mid July. Observations of sea ice position reveal considerable year-to-year variability.

41 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:03:28pm

re: #38 BruceKelly

I trust NASA more than anyone else in this debate. If they have a dog in this race, I can’t see him.

Yes, I meant dog. We don’t have horse racing in Colorado.

42 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:03:28pm

Wait so now a comparison of two pictures from one year to the next is scary? The deniers are tilting at windmills, but the fluctuation from one year to the next means very little to me. If you showed a number of years with each getting progressively worse, I’d lend more credence to the pictures, but even then, one place is anecdotal at best.

43 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:03:30pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Maslowski has been one of the scientists expecting a sooner rather than later melting of most of the summer ice cap. I suppose Gore could have chosen to promote a different scientist’s ideas, one that would have the Arctic being ice free (summer) at a later date.

It was Al’s choice to go with the sooner rather than later view.

Whether that makes it a “nontroversy” or not, I do not know.

I do know though that those who are crying the loudest about Al Gore don’t seem to be caring much about the actual physical world that will affect them, namely the truly melting arctic.

44 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:04:07pm

re: #38 BruceKelly

I trust NASA more than anyone else in this debate. If they have a dog in this race, I can’t see him.

Their dog would be survival of America, and the human race in general, along with respect for their craft.

45 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:04:16pm

re: #40 ckb

Sea ice forms along the coast in the winter, and generally melts or breaks away by mid July. Observations of sea ice position reveal considerable year-to-year variability.

Observations also show that for 30 years, the ice is getting thiner.

46 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:04:58pm

re: #36 Basho

yeah thats what I picked up on too, why the hell was that issue classified?

Also, there needs to be somebody with some public presence (and maybe even Gravitas). Professor whatever probably won’t cut it, unfortunately. On the other hand, Gore has such big negatives, he’s probalby not the one either. Who’se universally loved?!

47 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:05:56pm

re: #46 windsagio

oops: errors!

*why was that photograph classified?

*There needs to be somebody with some public presence (gravitas) to be the face of global warming.

48 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:06:39pm

re: #46 windsagio

yeah thats what I picked up on too, why the hell was that issue classified?

Also, there needs to be somebody with some public presence (and maybe even Gravitas). Professor whatever probably won’t cut it, unfortunately. On the other hand, Gore has such big negatives, he’s probalby not the one either. Who’se universally loved?!

It doesn’t matter who’s universally loved. Once they speak out on the issue the way Gore has they will be demonized and the same bunch that hate Gore will hate them.

49 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:06:53pm

re: #41 BruceKelly

Yes, I meant dog. We don’t have horse racing in Colorado.

you certainly do…thoroughbreds at Arapahoe Park in Aurora

50 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:07:40pm

re: #43 freetoken

Maslowski has been one of the scientists expecting a sooner rather than later melting of most of the summer ice cap. I suppose Gore could have chosen to promote a different scientist’s ideas, one that would have the Arctic being ice free (summer) at a later date.

It was Al’s choice to go with the sooner rather than later view.

Whether that makes it a “nontroversy” or not, I do not know.

I do know though that those who are crying the loudest about Al Gore don’t seem to be caring much about the actual physical world that will affect them, namely the truly melting arctic.

Right. But as you know, Copenhagen isn’t exactly a scientific conference and there’s plenty of leeway that I give to the speakers there.

51 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:07:49pm

re: #48 recusancy

Look at the way that Hawking has been treated already.

52 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:08:29pm

re: #24 The Curmudgeon

I, for one, welcome an ice-free pole. It’s the Northwest Passage at last! No more tolls for the Panama Canal!

(Hey, why not look on the bright side?)

There are likely very many effects of a warming arctic that we don’t appreciate yet.

However, one thing for certain is that our weather patterns down here will change.

I invite you to take a look at a recent posting by Jeff Masters on this:

The climate is changing: the Arctic Dipole emerges

53 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:09:22pm

re: #48 recusancy

It doesn’t matter who’s universally loved. Once they speak out on the issue the way Gore has they will be demonized and the same bunch that hate Gore will hate them.

That is a very good point. I would say that Gore was hated before he got big onto this subject tho’ (I should add unfairly hated, I like Al Gore alot).

Maybe a porn actor/actress?

54 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:09:51pm

re: #16 Obdicut

I have to disagree big time because his families money comes from Cattle, which is not enviro-friendly so it comes off as super-hypocritical to me at least, because it seems like “I got mind, fuck y’all, now it’s time to curtail emissions.” If he donated significant portion of his families wealth accrued from emitting assloads (literally) of CO2, he’d sit better with me. Other than that, it’s the whole Gore celebrity BS, like his “I hear a whale in danger” crap on 30 Rock, and if people are seriously going to harp on Lieberman as a media whore, you can’t just ignore Gore as one also. I’d have been less of a skeptic earlier if it wasn’t for Gore. The guy was unhinged during the Bush year’s and had speeches where he whipped crowds into mindless frenzies like the idjuts on the right are now.

55 ckb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:17pm

re: #45 Sharmuta

Observations also show that for 30 years, the ice is getting thiner.

The ice shown in that 2006 picture melts every year. Its thickness is irrelevant.

56 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:26pm

re: #53 windsagio

That is a very good point. I would say that Gore was hated before he got big onto this subject tho’ (I should add unfairly hated, I like Al Gore alot).

Maybe a porn actor/actress?

Screw that (no pun intended…), I vote Tiger.

57 Bob Dillon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:31pm

[Link: www.gi.alaska.edu…]

Locals and students from University of Alaska (Fairbanks) take it seriously. Their research blog makes for interesting reading and photos.

58 martinsmithy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:36pm

Excellent article by Tim Rutten in the LA Times on “The Silliness of Climategate.” [Link: www.latimes.com…]

The impact of this autonomic red-blue division often is amplified by the fact that we Americans are, by and large, technologically advanced but scientifically illiterate. Our national conversation is dominated by a culture of assertion rather than a respect for evidence reasonably assessed. Thus the endless wrangling over self-evident nonsense like creationism. It’s precisely the insistence on treating a scientific theory, evolution, and an allegorical notion, creationism, with a faux evenhandedness that creates a situation in which 75% of Americans believe most scientists disagree over global warming.

In fact, the scientific consensus on the issue is broad and deep. Nor does it rely on science done at the Climatic Research Unit at East Anglia. Even if something untoward occurred there, we have two other scientific organizations providing baseline climate data — both of which happen to be funded and directed by the U.S. government. One is NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and the other is the Global Historical Climatology Network — operated not by the EPA or the Interior Department but by the Commerce Department. Their historical data essentially matches that compiled at East Anglia.

59 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:45pm

re: #53 windsagio


Maybe a porn…actress?


Yes Please

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:10:53pm

re: #44 recusancy

Their dog would be survival of America, and the human race in general, along with respect for their craft.

I’m disturbed by the way people who are otherwise usually willing to presume—sometimes aggressively—the integrity and honor of the U.S. military lose this sense of trust when NASA is involved.

61 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:12:07pm

re: #54 robdouth

Gore shouldn’t have any impact on your evaluation of AGW. Solutions to AGW, perhaps, but not AGW itself.

62 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:12:09pm

re: #55 ckb

The ice shown in that 2006 picture melts every year. Its thickness is irrelevant.

That’s simply not true. Maybe you should watch the video in #3 or #15.

63 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:12:56pm

re: #42 robdouth

re: #54 robdouth

Your slip is showing…

64 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:13:05pm

re: #50 Gus 802

Speaking of Copenhagen, they’re still going at it even though it is past 1am for them. The Long-term Cooperative Action (LCA) working group is still debating their text for the minister level to massage.

Reminder: The USA is part of the LCA process, though it is not part of the KP (Kyoto Protocol) process.

I’d bet that the LCA process will come up with a text that President Obama can sign, as well as the leaders of several other nations. It will not be a legally binding treaty (though it will outline the plans for one to come later.)

65 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:13:18pm

if it’s widely accepted that the polar ice cap will be gone in a few years, is there a plan to deal with it anybody can link to?….beyond all the finger pointing, and a presumed reduction in CO2, what about in the meantime til it refreezes….is that worthy of scientific and political discussion?…I’ve heard everything over and over…is anybody moving on?….are new crops being genetically developed?…new sources of drinking water?…anything to get excited about?

66 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:14:51pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn good point there. NASA is full of highly dedicated people that do huge things on a thread of a budget. Leading edge tech always has fails. Right before the breakthroughs, like the launch of the IR sat. The NASA budget is scandalously small. Its our investment in future technologies.

67 garhighway  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:15:12pm

This is really depressing. It is obvious that AGW is real and accelerating, and yet people fixate on stolen e-mails and Al Gore.

The real problem here is that the scientists are bringing a knife to a gunfight. They think they can have a reasonable, fact-based conversation with the Karl Rove/Grover Norquist/Sarah Palin set. When the debate is scientists versus politicians, the politicians will always win, because they are good at spin and deception. It is their stock in trade.

This is so sad.

68 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:15:25pm

re: #65 albusteve

Somebody put it pretty well a few days back…


Unfortunately we’re still at the point of convincing people that this is happening, and too much research effort is still going into that. I’m sure work is going on, but until we get over this whole denier bullcrap we’re not going to see nearly the progress on solutions that we should.

69 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:15:54pm

re: #65 albusteve

Unless humans change their output of greenhouse gases, and the changing of land surfaces, then no, nothing can be done about it.

70 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:16:40pm

re: #67 garhighway

What’s sadder is the legions of people ready to help the transparent attacks on the scientists, because of a political leaning.

71 ckb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:16:44pm

re: #62 Sharmuta

That’s simply not true. Maybe you should watch the video in #3 or #15.

Wow, you can’t even forgo a simple point that sea ice at the Barrow coast melts every year. You should be wary of your bias. From wikipedia:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

“July is the warmest month of the year with an average high of 46 °F (8 °C) and an average low temperature of 34 °F (1 °C). Beginning in late July the Arctic Ocean is relatively ice-free, and remains so until late October.[10]”

72 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:16:57pm

re: #66 Rightwingconspirator

The NASA budget is scandalously small. Its our investment in future technologies.

We should instead give a few more billions of dollars of foreign aid to Sudan.
/

73 Bob Dillon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:17:18pm

re: #21 BruceKelly

updinged, and booed.

Well, now I can’t find my Barrow pin. Or for that matter any of the Alaska pins I collected. Must have put them somewhere safe.

74 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #54 robdouth

my family’s income comes from farming and that is REALLY not environmentally friendly—even tho most think of it has wholesome stewardship—but I bet you’d listen to a farmer, wouldnt ya? As I write my husband is out in the field, as are others, combining corn. Most farmers around here are done with harvest by mid Oct. Yup, nothing weird is going on here.

75 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:18:23pm

Here’s a lecture from the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco in December of 2007.

C24A Nye Lecture: Arctic Climate Change: Where Reality Exceeds Expectations

Presented by: Mark C. Serreze, National Snow and Ice Data Center, part of CIRES at the University of Colorado at Boulder

I could not find a lecture by Maslowksi who spoke at this event. If you go to the “Concluding Comments” segment you will hear Serreze mention again Maslowski’s prediction of ice free by 2013. Serreze predicted ice free by 2030 in this lecture.

76 Irenicum  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:18:28pm

re: #73 Bobibutu

Hopefully you didn’t put em on ice.
/

77 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:18:59pm

re: #67 garhighway

This is really depressing. It is obvious that AGW is real and accelerating, and yet people fixate on stolen e-mails and Al Gore.

The real problem here is that the scientists are bringing a knife to a gunfight. They think they can have a reasonable, fact-based conversation with the Karl Rove/Grover Norquist/Sarah Palin set. When the debate is scientists versus politicians, the politicians will always win, because they are good at spin and deception. It is their stock in trade.

This is so sad.

it’s not Gore or emails…we were fucked long before that…we can spend all of our wealth lowering CO2 levels but with what’s coming Gore will be an afterthought….there is no way in hell we can stop the results of AGW dead in it’s tracks….why so sad?…live your life and do what you feel you need to do

78 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:19:21pm

re: #72 Basho

my pet theory on that always was we should put the billions+ of military development into NASA. I know we can’t just kill the Military-industrial complex without whole sections of the nation collapsing, but we can repurpose that money into something at least POTENTIALLY useful.

79 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:19:40pm

re: #74 rurality

most farmers are usually/always done by mid Oct. sorry.

80 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:19:49pm

re: #69 freetoken

Unless humans change their output of greenhouse gases, and the changing of land surfaces, then no, nothing can be done about it.

Since the ice reflects sunlight back into space, what we CAN do is build a giant mirror in space.

81 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:19:59pm

re: #10 BEAM

The dumbest thing the enviro activists could do at this point is waste any more time and energy defending Al Gore. His hypocrisy and arrogance will come back to bite you in the ass every time. He’s a perfect distraction for the skeptics and you’re playing right into it.

Why all the downdings? This post has some truth to it. Al Gore is the guy who is on record as saying that the temperature at the earth’s core is 1 million degrees, or some such. He’s made many other hyperbolic and scientifically illiterate claims. With friends like him, guys like me who take a sober look at the realities [those two photos for example] and gulp, just have a harder time convincing anybody who’s skeptical and has no scientific turn of mind.

Those whose bent doesn’t run to science find that their only way into this morass is to look at the character and style of the debating camps’ leading advocates. Gore, by setting a hyperbolic and factually challenged style, messes with our game.

Gore also opens the door to some hyperbolic and factually challenged lies from the oil-and-coal lobby “right wing”. His mistake, this time, is not all that bad. But he gives them a great opportunity to discredit the whole message by discrediting the messenger, again, because once again, he’s claimed more than he can back up. Maybe it comes from having trained as a preacher? Or maybe it comes from a long practical experience in politics. Either way, he’s no scientist.

Flawed spokesman though he is, Gore is not too far off the money on this one. There is a REAL CHANCE, maybe only 57% instead of 75%, maybe only 37%, but a REAL CHANCE, that the summer Arctic ocean will be more or less open on September 1, 2017.

If that does happen, or maybe more to the point, when it happens, it will mean that the positive feedback loop the post mentions is firmly in place. Warmer sea, less ice, more heat absorbed from the sun the next time around, rinse and repeat. What that will do to the Greenland ice cap should be obvious.

We’ll see, in ten years or so, who was basically right. If the Right wants to be a factor in the governance of this nation any time downstream of that ten year mark, the Right has to get this question right, and get off the bandwagon of KnowNothingism.

It’s unpatriotic and imprudent to play games and not be grown-up on this issue. Please, Republicans, grow up. AGW is real. Now, is cap and trade the answer, or are more nuclear power plants a better way?

82 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:20:09pm

re: #63 windsagio

Dude go F yourself if you’re trying to make me out to be a denier. Even when you’re right on the issue, faulty logic is still faulty logic. The fact that Gore’s father can pollute all he wants and then we’re supposed to listen to him. This is not Gore derangement syndrome, because I didn’t care one way or another on him until he started becoming unhinged during the Bush admin with his screaming “he prayed on our fears” BS. I agree with some of the statements above where Gore makes for a shitty representative. It’s easy pickings for the deniers because of his being a politician and a man whose wealth came from where it did.

Also, if you look upthread, there are far more convincing examples of AGW then a 2 year picture comp.

Gotta tighten your game because you see what deniers are willing to lie about, and if you make weak arguments, it’s much harder to win the good fight. So F your slip showing BS and man up.

I’m sick of any questioning of logic or arguments taken as denial tendencies. Sorry if I don’t swallow seriously weak arguments whole. CyanHawk showed an example on a previous thread of some solid evidence and the arguments that need to be made. CJ does it 95% of the time. It’s the stupid sarcasm BS and 4th grade logic sometimes that just makes this side (which has the facts behind them) look no better than the other side on rare occasions. I’m going to point those out.

83 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:20:16pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m disturbed by the way people who are otherwise usually willing to presume—sometimes aggressively—the integrity and honor of the U.S. military lose this sense of trust when NASA is involved.

Well, the Pentagon and CIA already call AGW a national security threat.

“For the first time, Pentagon planners in 2010 will include climate change among the security threats identified in the Quadrennial Defense Review, the Congress-mandated report that updates Pentagon priorities every four years.”

84 Bob Dillon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:20:53pm

re: #67 garhighway

This is really depressing. It is obvious that AGW is real and accelerating, and yet people fixate on stolen e-mails and Al Gore.

The real problem here is that the scientists are bringing a knife to a gunfight. They think they can have a reasonable, fact-based conversation with the Karl Rove/Grover Norquist/Sarah Palin set. When the debate is scientists versus politicians, the politicians will always win, because they are good at spin and deception. It is their stock in trade.

This is so sad.

Right! For most, emotion will trump logic every time. And Mr. Gore is a lightening rod for immediate emotional overwhelm in a large block of the population.

85 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:20:59pm

re: #71 ckb

Wow, you can’t even forgo a simple point that sea ice at the Barrow coast melts every year. You should be wary of your bias. From wikipedia:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

“July is the warmest month of the year with an average high of 46 °F (8 °C) and an average low temperature of 34 °F (1 °C). Beginning in late July the Arctic Ocean is relatively ice-free, and remains so until late October.[10]”

That’s a nice little distortion. You said:

Its thickness is irrelevant.

That is what is not true.

86 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:21:41pm

re: #77 albusteve

argh, this again?


Please tell me I’m misreading you.


“We’re fucked so just have a good time” is NOT a good or responsible response to a worldwide crisis.


If I’m making a mistake please point it out, because thats freakin’ awful.

87 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:22:23pm

re: #78 windsagio

my pet theory on that always was we should put the billions+ of military development into NASA. I know we can’t just kill the Military-industrial complex without whole sections of the nation collapsing, but we can repurpose that money into something at least POTENTIALLY useful.

Really? Ignore the world or evil in world and put the entire military budget into NASA instead? It must be nice to live in your world.

88 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:23:13pm

re: #65 albusteve

if it’s widely accepted that the polar ice cap will be gone in a few years, is there a plan to deal with it anybody can link to?…beyond all the finger pointing, and a presumed reduction in CO2, what about in the meantime til it refreezes…is that worthy of scientific and political discussion?…I’ve heard everything over and over…is anybody moving on?…are new crops being genetically developed?…new sources of drinking water?…anything to get excited about?

Til it refreezes? That could be 50 thousand years from now. We have crossed a tipping point, folks. Pray that we do not cross a more serious one, such as losing the Antarctic ice cap. See David Archer’s book, the Long Thaw.

As to new crops, etc. etc. we will now face a series of harsh challenges. This is going to be tougher to deal with than the Dust Bowl days. Our current technology is vastly superior to what we had then, so we ought to be able to cope, but we’ve shot ourselves in the foot and there will be some pain.

89 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:23:59pm

re: #74 rurality

Depends. I’d listen to a farmer if I need to know about farming. You can’t just throw out a profession that is salt of the earth and say, you’d listen to them wouldn’t you? I probably won’t listen to a farmer necessarily if I’m asking about relativity, unless he has credentials there. Not to disparage the intelligence of farmers as to their understanding of relativity, but I’ll probably go to someone in the field. I’ll probably won’t go to a farmer for geology, etc. But it also depends on what kind of farming. Gore is big cattle, not mom and pop farms or even agro necessarily. I realize the necessity of both, but I’m probably not going to put one of those guys up as poster child for AGW, that’s the point being made earlier.

90 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:24:18pm

re: #67 garhighway

This is really depressing. It is obvious that AGW is real and accelerating, and yet people fixate on stolen e-mails and Al Gore.

The real problem here is that the scientists are bringing a knife to a gunfight. They think they can have a reasonable, fact-based conversation with the Karl Rove/Grover Norquist/Sarah Palin set. When the debate is scientists versus politicians, the politicians will always win, because they are good at spin and deception. It is their stock in trade.

This is so sad.

I don’t think Rove belongs in there.

91 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:24:44pm

re: #86 windsagio

argh, this again?

Please tell me I’m misreading you.

“We’re fucked so just have a good time” is NOT a good or responsible response to a worldwide crisis.

If I’m making a mistake please point it out, because thats freakin’ awful.

I don’t really worry about a world wide crisis and I’m not gonna be sad about the inevitable….I do my part, and compared to others my carbon footprint is microscopic

92 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:25:31pm

re: #49 albusteve

you certainly do…thoroughbreds at Arapahoe Park in Aurora

Waaa?! I didn’t know! I need to get out more.

93 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:26:58pm

re: #89 robdouth

Then don’t disregard Gore because his family has a cattle business. Don’t listen to Gore at all, if that is such a sticking point with you. Take your advice and read/listen to the scientists and biologists that Charles links here.

94 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:27:24pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

There are a number of reasons to be concerned about the Himalayan glaciers melting- plenty of articles about it if one wants to go searching, but mostly we have millions of people who live in the river systems born from these glaciers. What will happen to them when their rivers have no source of water?

The rivers will have more rain in place of less snow. This will make the runoff seasonally much more variable. They’ll need to bill buffer dams.

95 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:28:31pm

re: #42 robdouth

Wait so now a comparison of two pictures from one year to the next is scary? The deniers are tilting at windmills, but the fluctuation from one year to the next means very little to me. If you showed a number of years with each getting progressively worse, I’d lend more credence to the pictures, but even then, one place is anecdotal at best.

I recommend that you watch this
[Link: noblesseoblige.org…]

96 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:28:51pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

Til it refreezes? That could be 50 thousand years from now. We have crossed a tipping point, folks. Pray that we do not cross a more serious one, such as losing the Antarctic ice cap. See David Archer’s book, the Long Thaw.

As to new crops, etc. etc. we will now face a series of harsh challenges. This is going to be tougher to deal with than the Dust Bowl days. Our current technology is vastly superior to what we had then, so we ought to be able to cope, but we’ve shot ourselves in the foot and there will be some pain.

my whole point…can anyone say anything informative about reversing the effects of global warming, or what we do in the meantime…no, they can’t…slowing down the rate of CO2 discharge is good thing, but in terms of the oncoming changes, we are simply centuries behind the curve

97 garhighway  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:29:28pm

re: #70 Obdicut

I tend to think there are two kinds of people in the denier camp: the ones that can’t/don’t understand the science at all and simply take their cues from opinion leaders they trust, and those that DO understand it but don’t care, as they are more interested in their short-term political/economic goals.

I am sympathetic to the former. The latter can rot in hell. They are evil. They would sell out billions of people so Exxon can make earnings this quarter.

98 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:29:28pm

re: #36 Basho

So… Bush purposely hid scientific evidence from the public, and Gore is the lying sleazeball?

The government often hides stuff from the general public. Are you saying that Bush hid this because it proved global warming and therefore interfered with an agenda of his? If so, can you please provide some evidence that this is why the Bush administration kept the photos secret?

99 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:30:04pm

re: #91 albusteve

re: #96 albusteve


That makes more sense I admit. Do you think governments/etc should spend effort and resources to slow/mitigate the problem?


PS to the other rwdflynavy: Different discussion, different time. I was just throwing it out in passing ;)

100 Irenicum  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:30:07pm

It is strange to live in a time such as this, with the great progress we’ve made technologically, and yet how we’ve also set ourselves up for catastrophe.

101 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:30:16pm

What did Gore do to make everyone hate him so personally?

102 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:30:35pm

re: #101 Basho

Ran for president!

103 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:31:20pm

re: #101 Basho

What did Gore do to make everyone hate him so personally?

Suing to keep the military absentee vote in the 2000 election from being counted din’t help his personal cause, imho.

104 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:31:22pm

re: #93 rurality

re: #95 Thanos

That’s what I’m talking about. I have read a lot of the links. That’s why I said CJ is on it 95+% of the time, and probably more like 98 or 99, but when there is a slip, I’m saying drop that talking point because it’s not very convincing. That Noblesseoblige link is a good one, which I have seen before, and I think someone posted it earlier in either this or another page. Good stuff there. That’s the stuff you echo as often as you can. I think when you try to present evidence that is too narrow in scope either in time or size, you’re losing the forrest for the trees.

105 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:31:30pm

Here’s a love note that just came in, with the return address ‘urine@urineonlgf.toronto.ca’ and the title ‘Fuck you from Canada’:

Hey, you maggot communist. Get a life. I bet Cali sunshine has fried your commie brain. What a disgrace. Oh by the way, if you’re going to put this up as a hate mail please do so. I am from Toronto, Canada writing. You fucking hippie asshole.

Why I left the right, email version.

106 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:32:21pm

re: #101 Basho

What did Gore do to make everyone hate him so personally?

He started a company selling carbon credits, so he could “buy” credits to continue living a very un”green” lifestyle while profiting from the sales of these worthless credits. He has made a great deal of money off his AGW position.

He is an uber-douche.

107 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:32:33pm

re: #102 windsagio

Ran for president!

I never got over the PMRC thing.

108 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:32:36pm

re: #98 jayzee

Yes and no.

109 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:32:48pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

We will be totally ruled by Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland in the future envisioned. They already control about 80% of what’s grown and eaten, no need to fear.//

110 Irenicum  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:33:39pm

re: #109 rurality

Yeah, corporate agra is only interested in our well being.
///

111 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:34:34pm

re: #100 Irenicum

Its the nature of life (not just mankind, either). There are plenty of examples of lifeforms being somewhat maladapted and destroying their environment along with themselves. We just have the fortune (mistfortune) to be aware of it, and a chance to mitigate/fix it rationally.

re: #107 jayzee

dude, good call, I forgot about that! Yeah that was all kinds off awful. Random story: I first became aware of that, and the Gores, by reading Bloom County.

112 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:34:35pm

re: #101 Basho

What did Gore do to make everyone hate him so personally?

For many I suspect that it was the 2000 election.

However, Al did have his haters even before then. Limbaugh spent the 1990’s ridiculing AGW and environmental efforts, including those of Al Gore.

113 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:34:40pm

re: #99 windsagio

re: #96 albusteve

That makes more sense I admit. Do you think governments/etc should spend effort and resources to slow/mitigate the problem?

PS to the other rwdflynavy: Different discussion, different time. I was just throwing it out in passing ;)

I think we need to achieve a higher level of world harmony first, if that’s even possible….but after all, Copenhagen is the last ditch chance before it all comes crashing down….personally I think the whole thing is a huge waste of time and effort….I highly doubt govts can solve the AGW problem….humanity is gonna take a hit on this one

114 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:35:17pm

re: #108 Basho

Yes and no.

Then that’s a serious allegation to make and slippery slope too I’m afraid.

115 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:35:22pm

re: #106 rwdflynavy

He started a company selling carbon credits, so he could “buy” credits to continue living a very un”green” lifestyle while profiting from the sales of these worthless credits. He has made a great deal of money off his AGW position.

He is an uber-douche.

So.. he paid someone to plant trees to absorb the equivalent CO2 he was personally emitting? Pure evil that man.

116 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:35:24pm

re: #105 Charles

What a pisser.

117 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:35:34pm

re: #93 rurality

Also, I’m not saying that Gore is inaccurate or wrong most of the time. My arguement is that if he’s going to be the poster child for AGW, you’re in trouble. Not because of GDS, but because for a long time on other issues, he was a partisan hack. He’s always seemed very genuine in his environmental concerns, but being a politician, he has a gift for the hyperbole, and so just his being a spokesman politicizes science when it shouldn’t be. I know that image helps when you’re selling an idea, even when it’s a scientifically proven idea, that shouldn’t have to be sold. They’d do better with a smart looking scientist who is well spoken. Someone who is smooth, but doesn’t seem political. I know it sounds stupid probably but everyone has to have an agent or publicist nowadays, why not a scientific movement.

118 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:37:04pm

re: #105 Charles

Here’s a love note that just came in, with the return address ‘urine@urineonlgf.toronto.ca’ and the title ‘Fuck you from Canada’:

Why I left the right, email version.

More from the ‘party of grownups?’ They have shown their colors during the trials of losing power..
The Right has been weighted, Measured and found wanting

119 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:37:06pm

I’ve lived and worked in Pt. Barrow, and even made wrecker calls out onto the pack ice to pick up stuck cars and Sno-go’s, what you are seeing in the picture is true per my friends still living in Pt. Barrow for those of you who are kookspiracy minded.

120 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:37:22pm

re: #98 jayzee

The government often hides stuff from the general public. Are you saying that Bush hid this because it proved global warming and therefore interfered with an agenda of his? If so, can you please provide some evidence that this is why the Bush administration kept the photos secret?

Survey Finds Bush Administration Interfering with EPA Scientists

121 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:38:24pm

re: #114 jayzee

Then that’s a serious allegation to make and slippery slope too I’m afraid.

He certainly didn’t hide the pics to keep the tourists away.

122 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:38:43pm

re: #113 albusteve

Ok, so we can safely put you in the Cato The Doomer category.

One of the problems with being a fatalist is that fatalism can be applied to pretty much all of life. As individuals we are subject to a huge number of outside forces over which we have little to no influence.

For myself, if given the choice between (1) lighting a candle, or (2) cursing the darkness, the first option sounds more appealing.

Please note that by “candle” I meant the metaphoric candle, not the CO2/soot emitting physical kind.

123 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:39:09pm

re: #113 albusteve

hrmm; you’re still phrasing the Copenhagen thing so apocalyptically. Is that sarc I’m missing, or what?

I’m just really uncomfortable with this whole idea of “We must meet this or that condition first, and THEN we can seriously work on mitigating global warming”.

I at least understand your position tho’, thank you.

124 Achilles Tang  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:39:31pm

Back to talking Al Gore already!

I was hoping those three suspect words among 13 years of emails would have been around a bit longer. They were so useful for identifying those full of crap immediately. Now it’s going to take two or three posts to be sure again.

125 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #105 Charles

Not cool to just label everything hate-filled right wing even if the D-bag calls you a commie. How about just this guy is a douche-bag. Probably doesn’t even know what he believes and couldn’t coherently express any kind of viewpoint other than insults against people he doesn’t like, but hey throw him on our side and make him an honorary “right-winger” which is starting to mean very little anymore as a political position.

126 Irenicum  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:39:51pm

re: #120 recusancy

Good link. I’m continuously amazed at how people don’t remember, or better yet, won’t remember that this is old news. Bush’s WH constantly politicized the scientific issues, either because of religious bias or corporate bias. In either case it resulted in bad science.

127 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:40:05pm

I dislike Al for several reasons, mostly because he’s got his environmental consortium WE packed with long time anti-nuclear advocates and biomass pimps along with some past “clean coal” advocates. I dislike that in the movie he made things seem more immanent and urgent on sea levels by leaving out the length of time before we got to X feet, but this one I think he’s right on.

128 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:40:57pm

re: #96 albusteve

my whole point…can anyone say anything informative about reversing the effects of global warming, or what we do in the meantime…no, they can’t…slowing down the rate of CO2 discharge is good thing, but in terms of the oncoming changes, we are simply centuries behind the curve

There is a lot we can do. If we can make the transition to wind, solar, and nuclear etc. in time, or mostly make it in time, then we can duck the worst of the cost and avoid a hothouse earth with no icecaps at either end.

Even if we screw the pooch entirely and proceed business as usual for the next 50 years, (at which point it’ll probably be too late), it still won’t be too late for mitigation. There are some iffy and almost desperate geoengineering things we could try, and they might head off hothouse earth even when normal measures would be doomed. And we can avoid putting the most expensive and most long-lasting infrastructure where it will be flooded during its useful lifetime. For instance, major nuclear power stations should all be sited 200 feet above sea level, just to be on the safe side. We (well, India, mostly) can build dams to catch the rain runoff that replaces snowmelt from the Himalayas. We can make heroic efforts at disease and pest control, and we’ll need them in a world that lacks winter. [Winter as we know it, that is.]

We have to make the transition to wind, solar, and nuclear well before the coal runs out, because as it runs down, if there’s nothing waiting in the wings, we’ll find ourselves drawn into fighting over what’s left and we won’t have the economic leeway to make the necessary investments in the long term future. A bloody mess it would be. So, why not get on the stick now, while there’s lots of coal, but not any safe place to put CO2 that results from burning it?

129 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:41:42pm

re: #115 Basho

So.. he paid someone to plant trees to absorb the equivalent CO2 he was personally emitting? Pure evil that man.

Ahhh the carbon trade. Awesome idea that is. Sounds nothing like mortgage derivatives to me.

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

130 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:42:14pm

re: #120 recusancy

Survey Finds Bush Administration Interfering with EPA Scientists

Anybody remember the Caribou map thing?

131 Irenicum  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:42:33pm

re: #122 freetoken

Apropos of nothing, your candle reference reminds me of an old Christophers show I used to watch in NYC years ago hosted by Fr. John Catore. He would always use that quote. Still love it.

132 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:42:36pm

re: #127 Thanos

he’s got his environmental consortium WE packed with long time anti-nuclear advocates and biomass pimps along with some past “clean coal” advocates.

Boom that enough will do it for me. You go anti-nuclear, you lose all credibility with me.

133 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:43:35pm

re: #117 robdouth

Gore is not the poster boy of AGW for those who are informed. But he is the P.boy for the deniers. And because they still bear him ill will for losing to Bush or for some even less understandable reasons, they have made him the whipping boy, and excuse not to listen. Recently he has been discredited because he’s “becoming a billionaire” on green initiatives, finding solutions for problems that don’t exist? And he’s a hypocrite cause he flies around the country giving speeches, so his carbon footprint is huge, again contributing to a problem that doesnt exist. The right likes capitalism, except when they don’t.

134 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:43:47pm

As for a politician who has better positives/few negatives than Al Gore, the Governator himself spoke at Copenhagen yesterday.

You can catch his speech here:
[Link: www4.cop15.meta-fusion.com…]

He is the last speaker, starts about half way through.

135 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:44:00pm

re: #122 freetoken

Ok, so we can safely put you in the Cato The Doomer category.

One of the problems with being a fatalist is that fatalism can be applied to pretty much all of life. As individuals we are subject to a huge number of outside forces over which we have little to no influence.

For myself, if given the choice between (1) lighting a candle, or (2) cursing the darkness, the first option sounds more appealing.

Please note that by “candle” I meant the metaphoric candle, not the CO2/soot emitting physical kind.

a fatalists will probably out live you by a couple of decades too….show me the beef then I will have hope…so what good will my new optimism have?…I already said that by comparison I leave a very tint footprint…I want solutions and results, not hope or however you want to put it…I’m tired of all the talk, show me some steps to take on this bibical catastrophy to avert it….you can’t, I’ve already headed out…put your faith in politicians and I promise you they will shorten your life not lengthen it

136 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:44:14pm

re: #125 robdouth

Not cool to just label everything hate-filled right wing even if the D-bag calls you a commie. How about just this guy is a douche-bag. Probably doesn’t even know what he believes and couldn’t coherently express any kind of viewpoint other than insults against people he doesn’t like, but hey throw him on our side and make him an honorary “right-winger” which is starting to mean very little anymore as a political position.

Oh, right. Because it might have been a left-winger?

Come on, man.

137 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:44:38pm

re: #115 Basho

So.. he paid someone to plant trees to absorb the equivalent CO2 he was personally emitting? Pure evil that man.

He paid someone to pretend to plant trees to etc. These carbon offset schemes are today’s version of the middle ages Catholic practice of selling “get out of hell free” cards. The land where the trees are supposed to grow isn’t protected from cutting, erosion, etc. The notion that those trees will grow to maturity and then not be felled and burned for firewood or something is a fantasy. Often enough, even the land on which the trees are to be planted is a fantasy.

We cannot scrimp and save our way out of this one anyhow. It’s up or out for civilization. Make the transition to renewable energy or go the way of the Mayans.

138 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:44:43pm

re: #94 lostlakehiker

The rivers will have more rain in place of less snow. This will make the runoff seasonally much more variable. They’ll need to bill buffer dams.

We can’t be sure what the weather patterns will be- if they will get enough rain to compensate for the lack of snow melt, and if the rain will fall in the areas where it’s needed.

139 myfriendwatson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:45:02pm

Well, I’m hopeful that we can live in a world someday where the ice never melts and glaciers never retreat.//

Anyone want to be how this would go: get the govt to set up a solar plant that would equal the output of a nuclear plant. Stick it in the Mojave outside Palm Springs. Get it done in nine months. Bring in the water that will be necessary to keep the solar panels clean. Get it up and operational.

Seriously, does anyone think that scenario is even possible. Does anyone think the enviromentalists would let it happen?

140 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:45:56pm

re: #125 robdouth

(late because I didn’t actually *READ* it until Charles quoted it)

Yeah, your nose is definitely coming out of your hood now.

141 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:46:00pm

re: #98 jayzee

The government often hides stuff from the general public. Are you saying that Bush hid this because it proved global warming and therefore interfered with an agenda of his? If so, can you please provide some evidence that this is why the Bush administration kept the photos secret?

In its final days, Bush admin released long-awaited studies

Greenwire: The Bush administration released the last of a series of major climate reports during its final days, after years of battling its critics, who claimed the documents were being suppressed to avoid U.S. engagement on global warming.

The U.S. Climate Change Science Program posted the final five of 21 climate change Synthesis and Assessment Products on Jan. 16, the final business day for the Bush administration before President Barack Obama’s inauguration.

The reports cover topics including the effects of climate change on sea-level rise, in the Arctic and at high latitudes, and the thresholds of global warming in ecosystems.

Critics blasted the Bush administration for the reports’ delayed release, saying President George W. Bush’s White House deliberately tried to minimize the role the reports would play in climate policy by slowing their release and minimizing media scrutiny…

I believe there were 4 studies in all. They were finally released on January 16, 2009, 4 days before the inauguration of Barack Obama.

Christine Todd Whitman resigned (forced) because of the climate change reversal from the White House.

142 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:46:22pm

re: #139 myfriendwatson

It’s getting to be where youn’t tell who the bad guys are even WITH a scorecard.

143 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:46:39pm

re: #132 robdouth

Boom that enough will do it for me. You go anti-nuclear, you lose all credibility with me.

lol
As if he could’ve had any in your mind.

144 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:47:16pm

re: #121 Basho

He certainly didn’t hide the pics to keep the tourists away.

Maybe not, but there are a lot of reasons the government keeps stuff secret. If we’re going to say it was a personal agenda by GW we should have proof first.

145 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:47:38pm

re: #142 Taqyia2Me

It’s getting to be where youn’t tell who the bad guys are even WITH a scorecard.

pimf: youn’t = you can’t

146 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:47:38pm

re: #105 Charles

Here’s a love note that just came in, with the return address ‘urine@urineonlgf.toronto.ca’ and the title ‘Fuck you from Canada’:

Why I left the right, email version.

Ya know, I’d guess the guy writing that is the one who needs to get a life. How bad can it be, coding up cool code, jamming with cool musicians, being consequential in the world, riding a fine bike on a variety of routes, and having the talent to shoot good shots with a top-of-the-line camera?

147 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:47:55pm

re: #144 jayzee

Maybe not, but there are a lot of reasons the government keeps stuff secret. If we’re going to say it was a personal agenda by GW we should have proof first.

Hello?

[Link: www.ens-newswire.com…]

148 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:48:08pm

re: #139 myfriendwatson

a ton of reasons why thats an awful solution (power transmission, the shortage of water in that area ANYWAYS, getting that much power out of any solar facility, etc)

You’d blame environmentalists for halting a bad idea?

149 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:48:20pm

re: #130 windsagio

Anybody remember the Caribou map thing?

I don’t what was it?

150 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:49:15pm

re: #133 rurality

Look, I get what you’re saying about him not being the poster-boy for those who are in the know, but he’s not just for the right-wing deniers. The average American when asked, would probably think he is the poster boy. Given he makes videos, flies around doing lectures and is given a slot to speak in Copenhagen, he’s something pretty damn close to a poster boy.

Whether he’s your poster boy or not, I think if you ask a handful of people from across the political spectrum what one person they most associate with AGW, they would list Al Gore more often then any other person. He’d get a majority of the popular vote in that poll. The risk with putting a politician in that role is that he’s a politician. he’s done unsavory things in the past that weren’t on principal, and it’s hard to divorce his stances on other issues, from the good he’s trying to do with AGW. If you’re fine with it, then great, but I’m worried about winning the minds over.

151 myfriendwatson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:49:38pm

re: #148 windsagio

But I thought solar was the answer, or one of them? I would think you need to stick the panels where the sun shines.

152 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:49:52pm

re: #137 lostlakehiker

He paid someone to pretend to plant trees to etc. These carbon offset schemes are today’s version of the middle ages Catholic practice of selling “get out of hell free” cards.

I commend you for not saying indulgences.

153 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:50:27pm

re: #152 Basho

I commend you for not saying indulgences.

Does it get him out of hell free then?

154 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:51:12pm

re: #36 Basho

So… Bush purposely hid scientific evidence from the public, and Gore is the lying sleazeball?

Basho, why do you hate America?/

155 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:51:39pm

re: #154 Jimmah

LMAO
Miss you, Jimmah :)

156 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:51:42pm

re: #139 myfriendwatson

Well, I’m hopeful that we can live in a world someday where the ice never melts and glaciers never retreat.//

Anyone want to be how this would go: get the govt to set up a solar plant that would equal the output of a nuclear plant. Stick it in the Mojave outside Palm Springs. Get it done in nine months. Bring in the water that will be necessary to keep the solar panels clean. Get it up and operational.

Seriously, does anyone think that scenario is even possible. Does anyone think the enviromentalists would let it happen?

Right now, it wouldn’t fly. Nimby Environmentalists are the other wing of stupid, flapping right in synch with KnowNothing Republicans. They too need to grow up. This is too serious a problem to be squeamish about killing a few desert toads with the shade beneath a solar power plant, or a few birds with a windmill farm, or to fret that a five mile deep hole into permanent salt deposits, filled with nuclear waste, will somehow spring a leak and irradiate the planet and we’ll all be eaten by elephant sized fruit flies.

157 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:52:08pm

re: #135 albusteve

First, if you live in the US, by default of how we have structured our lives one’s carbon footprint is not small. Even if you don’t directly use lots of fossil fuels, the support system around you on which you rely does.

Secondly, many of the “solutions” for addressing CO2 emissions just happen to be the same for addressing fossil fuel depletion, a problem manifesting itself today wrt petroleum and will one day in the not too distant future apply to natural gas too. Even coal is limited in supply, though quite large.

So moving energy away from fossil fuel makes sense, as you are going to do it sooner or later anyway.

The idea is to do it “sooner” rather than “later”, so as to limit the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (and carbon soot, too.)

158 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:52:16pm

re: #136 Charles

No not a left-winger, just an angry d-bag. He probably didn’t present any coherent ideas at all in his email to you, but since he says your a commie, he’s put on the IDEOLOGICAL right-wing which is what the term stands for. Given no ideology, I’d just label him a douche. Not left or right. We need a new term because the population of those of us who are decent on the right, shouldn’t get slandered with guys who can’t articulate anything but hate. I know it’s a pernicious problem, and I applaud you’re work with the Bachmann’s, Palin’s, Beck’s, etc of the world. But every loony who shouts commie shouldn’t count against guys like me. I could have probably made that point more eloquently.

159 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:52:29pm

re: #147 Charles

Hello?

[Link: www.ens-newswire.com…]

I saw it and was reading it. If Bush hid it personally and for a personal agenda, I will be very upset by that. I really hope it’s not the case. I’d rather believe almost anything else (new sat technology, something).

160 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:52:56pm

re: #158 robdouth

Oh, good grief. That’s one of the most strained rationalizations I’ve read recently, and I’ve read a lot of them.

161 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:53:02pm

re: #156 lostlakehiker

Right now, it wouldn’t fly. Nimby Environmentalists are the other wing of stupid, flapping right in synch with KnowNothing Republicans. They too need to grow up. This is too serious a problem to be squeamish about killing a few desert toads with the shade beneath a solar power plant, or a few birds with a windmill farm, or to fret that a five mile deep hole into permanent salt deposits, filled with nuclear waste, will somehow spring a leak and irradiate the planet and we’ll all be eaten by elephant sized fruit flies.

ahahaha!….oooff!

162 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:54:45pm

re: #143 Basho

Actually, I’m not saying he’s wrong, but I’m not going to quote Gore because he’s not credible in a lot of areas, I’d rather quote a scientist. Gore is too wrapped up in the politics still to be used credibly for science. It’s not fair to him, but you quote him and you lose a third of the audience immediately. He’s low-hanging fruit for the denier crowd.

163 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:55:16pm

re: #156 lostlakehiker

Right now, it wouldn’t fly. Nimby Environmentalists are the other wing of stupid, flapping right in synch with KnowNothing Republicans. They too need to grow up. This is too serious a problem to be squeamish about killing a few desert toads with the shade beneath a solar power plant, or a few birds with a windmill farm, or to fret that a five mile deep hole into permanent salt deposits, filled with nuclear waste, will somehow spring a leak and irradiate the planet and we’ll all be eaten by elephant sized fruit flies.

Oops.
Sometimes salt deposits do spring a leak.
(That one the result of an oil drilling operation)

164 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:57:08pm

re: #149 jayzee

Essentially, a USGS scientist did a study of migration patterns of the Porcupine caribou herd, and found that their calving grounds were in the area of ANWR they wanted to open up for drilling, as I remember the map was, well surpressed, and the guy was fired.

re: #151 myfriendwatson

I’m a big fan of home solar panels with utility buyback plans. Properly done solar plants are a part of the solution, but your example was still absurd.

165 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:57:08pm

re: #144 jayzee

Maybe not, but there are a lot of reasons the government keeps stuff secret. If we’re going to say it was a personal agenda by GW we should have proof first.

GW is very well known in science circles for his attempts to silence scientists. You could start with the letter sent by the Union of Concerned Scientists to that effect.

166 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:58:23pm

re: #160 Charles

I’m still of the belief that the conservative movement is worth saving. It seems around here that since right-wingers have become idiots, that you can throw the baby (conservatism as an idea) out with the bathwater. I’m still a conservative in the mold of Burke or Buckley, but without the calling people names for being gay if they piss me off. Sorry if you see it as poor rationalization, but it seems like a lot of people around here are using any reason no matter how little to just dump on the right, and I see no difference being made between ideological conservatism and the idiots who hijacked the party. Does anyone even acknowledge a difference. Most of these people don’t reach these conclusions because of their strong grounding in conservative principles but because of some warped hybrid of “the family” style religion and some ingrained isms that form some ugly right-wing thing.

167 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:58:30pm

re: #164 windsagio

Thanks.

168 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:58:43pm

It’s a little warm in here today.
Would someone mind opening a window.

169 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #157 freetoken

First, if you live in the US, by default of how we have structured our lives one’s carbon footprint is not small. Even if you don’t directly use lots of fossil fuels, the support system around you on which you rely does.

Secondly, many of the “solutions” for addressing CO2 emissions just happen to be the same for addressing fossil fuel depletion, a problem manifesting itself today wrt petroleum and will one day in the not too distant future apply to natural gas too. Even coal is limited in supply, though quite large.

So moving energy away from fossil fuel makes sense, as you are going to do it sooner or later anyway.

The idea is to do it “sooner” rather than “later”, so as to limit the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (and carbon soot, too.)

I’ve been living my present lifestyle for almost ten years now…for sure before that I lived large, but personally there is little more that I can do now…anyway I know all the rest

170 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:59:53pm

re: #166 robdouth

You might want to put down that shovel.

171 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 4:59:57pm

OT: Look what places like China can accomplish, without pesky democratic accountability biting the state’s ankles.

[Link: drx.typepad.com…]

172 Cheechako  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:00:39pm

re: #40 ckb

Barrow Sea Ice Break-up in the News

Annual break-up of landfast sea ice off the coast of Barrow, Alaska received international media attention in July 2009 after the USGS made available high resolution-satellite imagery that show inter-annual variability in coastal ice conditions. We would like to emphasize that the images released are scientifically extremely valuable. They both clearly demonstrate the year-to-year variability of ice conditions and document the progress of summer ice break-up in Barrow 2006 in unprecedented detail. However, unlike suggested by some, comparing summer ice conditions in July 2006 and July 2007 is not sufficient evidence to verify a trend.

173 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:00:44pm

re: #166 robdouth

I’m still of the belief that the conservative movement is worth saving. It seems around here that since right-wingers have become idiots, that you can throw the baby (conservatism as an idea) out with the bathwater. I’m still a conservative in the mold of Burke or Buckley, but without the calling people names for being gay if they piss me off. Sorry if you see it as poor rationalization, but it seems like a lot of people around here are using any reason no matter how little to just dump on the right, and I see no difference being made between ideological conservatism and the idiots who hijacked the party. Does anyone even acknowledge a difference. Most of these people don’t reach these conclusions because of their strong grounding in conservative principles but because of some warped hybrid of “the family” style religion and some ingrained isms that form some ugly right-wing thing.

And that, my friend, is why I parted ways with the right.

174 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:01:43pm

re: #160 Charles

strained rationalizations

I’ll be using that one.

175 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:02:26pm

re: #172 Cheechako

Barrow Sea Ice Break-up in the News

Of course, it’s not sufficient evidence in itself. But there’s a huge amount of corroborating evidence.

Seizing on one sentence out of context is pretty disingenuous.

176 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:02:37pm

re: #170 Gus 802

That’s ok, I’m not going to backpedal just because someone disagrees with me. I’ll just make a better effort at explaining myself. I’d prefer if some douches didn’t assume I’m a denier if I fault the logic of certain arguments, but other than that, misunderstandings are the way of the internets. I just gotta do a better job. I’m still coming at this with the mindset that I have a lot to learn with regards to AGW, having been a skeptic like CJ until recently, but it does no good assuming someone’s a denying idiot if they fault some logic as weak, when they still agree with the overall conclusion.

177 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:03:17pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

OT: Look what places like China can accomplish, without pesky democratic accountability biting the state’s ankles.

[Link: drx.typepad.com…]

lol
That actually looks cool. Hope they keep it, it’d be good for tourism.

178 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:03:21pm

re: #150 robdouth

Al Gore getting the majority of the popular vote has never worked out well for us or him. I think deniers hide behind Gore and would not believe AGW if Sarah Palin gave a presentation on melting polar ice in a micro miniskirt, droppin her ‘g’s. They don’t want to believe the climate is changing. They can make extraordinary leaps of faith in politics/religion/sports, but they need 100% certainty in AGW.

179 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:03:51pm

re: #173 Charles

What does that mean? My reasoning is why? The idiots who hijacked the party is why? Are you saying there is no difference between conservatism as an ideology and the right-wing as it exists today?

180 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:05:00pm

re: #166 robdouth

Does anyone even acknowledge a difference. Most of these people don’t reach these conclusions because of their strong grounding in conservative principles but because of some warped hybrid of “the family” style religion and some ingrained isms that form some ugly right-wing thing.

Yes, actually. Charles for one. Many of the rational conservatives here at LGF certainly make the distinction.

181 Jimmah  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:05:02pm

re: #155 Basho

LMAO
Miss you, Jimmah :)

Likewise, pal :)

182 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:05:51pm

re: #179 robdouth

What does that mean? My reasoning is why? The idiots who hijacked the party is why? Are you saying there is no difference between conservatism as an ideology and the right-wing as it exists today?

I don’t know how to make this any clearer than I already have.

183 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:06:47pm

re: #166 robdouth

I’m still of the belief that the conservative movement is worth saving. It seems around here that since right-wingers have become idiots, that you can throw the baby (conservatism as an idea) out with the bathwater. I’m still a conservative in the mold of Burke or Buckley, but without the calling people names for being gay if they piss me off. Sorry if you see it as poor rationalization, but it seems like a lot of people around here are using any reason no matter how little to just dump on the right, and I see no difference being made between ideological conservatism and the idiots who hijacked the party. Does anyone even acknowledge a difference. Most of these people don’t reach these conclusions because of their strong grounding in conservative principles but because of some warped hybrid of “the family” style religion and some ingrained isms that form some ugly right-wing thing.

There’s such a thing as “the face of the party”, and nowadays Burke and Buckley ain’t it. Conservatism at present is spent and leaderless. It’ll come back, it always does, so long as enough people value its best ideals. Just gotta soldier on through the current morass, and try to keep our heads.

184 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:06:49pm

re: #179 robdouth

What does that mean? My reasoning is why? The idiots who hijacked the party is why?

Religious nutjobs and fans of Ayn Rand

185 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:07:23pm

re: #179 robdouth

I’m sorry you just read as a guy who is laying doubt wherever he can, but just knows that being actively anti-AGW will get you reamed out good on this site… So you do the ‘I believe in it, but none of these arguments work!’ trick.

The utterly rabid hatred of Al Gore was pretty telling too.

186 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:07:44pm

re: #157 freetoken

First, if you live in the US, by default of how we have structured our lives one’s carbon footprint is not small. Even if you don’t directly use lots of fossil fuels, the support system around you on which you rely does.

Secondly, many of the “solutions” for addressing CO2 emissions just happen to be the same for addressing fossil fuel depletion, a problem manifesting itself today wrt petroleum and will one day in the not too distant future apply to natural gas too. Even coal is limited in supply, though quite large.

So moving energy away from fossil fuel makes sense, as you are going to do it sooner or later anyway.

The idea is to do it “sooner” rather than “later”, so as to limit the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (and carbon soot, too.)

I’ve been living my present lifestyle for almost ten years now…for sure before that I lived large, but personally there is little more that I can do now…anyway I know all the restre: #166 robdouth

I’m still of the belief that the conservative movement is worth saving. It seems around here that since right-wingers have become idiots, that you can throw the baby (conservatism as an idea) out with the bathwater. I’m still a conservative in the mold of Burke or Buckley, but without the calling people names for being gay if they piss me off. Sorry if you see it as poor rationalization, but it seems like a lot of people around here are using any reason no matter how little to just dump on the right, and I see no difference being made between ideological conservatism and the idiots who hijacked the party. Does anyone even acknowledge a difference. Most of these people don’t reach these conclusions because of their strong grounding in conservative principles but because of some warped hybrid of “the family” style religion and some ingrained isms that form some ugly right-wing thing.

okay observation, does not apply to me tho and I’m about as politically conservative as it gets round here

187 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:08:32pm

re: #186 albusteve

if I may ask, what is your lifestyle? I’m really curious now ;)

188 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:09:44pm

re: #175 Charles

Of course, it’s not sufficient evidence in itself. But there’s a huge amount of corroborating evidence.

Seizing on one sentence out of context is pretty disingenuous.

Omigosh! Palin’s state is the beneficiary of a Federal SCIENCE grant, she’s got to be a RINO

/or a hypocrite

189 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:09:59pm

re: #179 robdouth

What does that mean? My reasoning is why? The idiots who hijacked the party is why? Are you saying there is no difference between conservatism as an ideology and the right-wing as it exists today?

You need to separate yourself from the idiots in order not to be mistaken for one. When (or if) I go to the next local Republican Party meeting, I expect to be mistaken for a tea partier if I am seen by my sane friends. I’m not one, but if I go to that meeting, I will be seen meeting with some of them.

190 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:10:03pm

re: #183 The Sanity Inspector

There’s such a thing as “the face of the party”, and nowadays Burke and Buckley ain’t it. Conservatism at present is spent and leaderless. It’ll come back, it always does, so long as enough people value its best ideals. Just gotta soldier on through the current morass, and try to keep our heads.

Thanks

191 rurality  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:11:11pm

re: #184 Basho

And obstructionists who wouldnt know how to act in good faith (despite all their bible thumbing) if they were smote by it. Who as of yet, have not come out with any alternative to any of the ‘socialist’ legislature being proposed on the Hill. Well, should say any alternative that couldnt be run off on an AB Dick mimeo machine—2 page health care proposal. please. It terrifies me that their poll #s are improving.

192 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:12:44pm

re: #187 windsagio

if I may ask, what is your lifestyle? I’m really curious now ;)

I’m a caveman living on seeds and leaves…with an occasional extra large bug or two…I have a car but I don’t drive it…I have money but I don’t spend it….I dig Johns: Lennon, Hiatt and Mayer….I post, therefor I am

193 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:13:45pm

re: #191 rurality

I remember Republicans on the Sunday morning talk shows talking about the healthcare bill. Their biggest beef with it? That it was 2000 pages long. I guess complicated legislation should have a Twitter-like 140 character limit.

194 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:14:01pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

I get you, but look at some of the comments. Getting told your slip is showing for arguing that the logic is weak on one argument. Automatically taking a you’re with us or against us type argument. With a crazy right and a crazy left, what do you bother calling yourself then. Most people aren’t going to sit still for the long explanation of why you are not right or left. Independent always sounded like too much of a copout, and maybe if the connotation felt more like “educated and wise independent” I’d be more comfortable with it. Maybe it’s depressing cause the only thing that seems to make news is the craziness of the right or left. There’s no vocal majority in the middle that can say, “we’re mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore.” It’s more just dump on the stupid politician more than anything.

195 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:15:05pm

re: #194 robdouth

I have no freaking clue what you’re trying to say.

You seem to be saying that left and right are equal, in the current moment, in their crazy.

That’s plain wrong.

196 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:15:11pm

re: #192 albusteve

its just that theres this guy who posts on another board I read sometimes that you remind me of (no I don’t mean it as an insult). He also really dislikes the government, tries to live off the grid, etc etc.

I’m just hunting for clues if yer the same guy :)

197 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:16:01pm

well thanks for the discourse, and like every time i leave LGF, I’ve learned far more than I’ve contributed. Thanks for the patience from most of you. I’ve got to go smoke a birthday cigar with my father, so I bid you all a fond adieu. Until next time my friends, be well.

198 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:16:26pm

re: #193 Basho

I remember Republicans on the Sunday morning talk shows talking about the healthcare bill. Their biggest beef with it? That it was 2000 pages long. I guess complicated legislation should have a Twitter-like 140 character limit.

I know that’s my only beef with the bill! That and the fact that socialized medicine is a failure in so many countries. Don’t let that bother you.

199 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:16:29pm

I’ve stopped considering myself a conservative and I’ve stopped calling myself a conservative. I don’t agree with the people who now own the word, and suspect it will be as bad to be correctly called a conservative in a few years as it has been to be called a liberal the past two decades.
The conservative movement has committed suicide by parting ways with truth, and the reality of national politics. I can’t trust people who label themselves “true conservatives” anymore because I care about the long term future.

200 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:16:45pm

re: #195 Obdicut

Far left and right, but even mainstream left and right always have ties to the fringe. It seems like everyone is guilty by association. Peace, I’ll talk to you later.

201 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:16:46pm

re: #196 windsagio

its just that theres this guy who posts on another board I read sometimes that you remind me of (no I don’t mean it as an insult). He also really dislikes the government, tries to live off the grid, etc etc.

I’m just hunting for clues if yer the same guy :)

I dislike legislators and their minions, not the Marines or the FBI

202 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:17:44pm

re: #201 albusteve

so the next question, (which you don’t have to answer) do you have more than two ex-wives?

203 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:17:50pm

re: #198 rwdflynavy

That and the fact that socialized medicine is a failure in so many countries.

Except that it’s not?

204 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:18:22pm

Here’s an argument from the KnowNothings. Link Daily Express articleHere’s one of their 100 reasons why climate change is natural:

15) Professor Plimer, Professor of Geology and Earth Sciences at the University of Adelaide, stated that the idea of taking a single trace gas in the atmosphere, accusing it and finding it guilty of total responsibility for climate change, is an “absurdity”


Well, now. What if it’s just 60% responsible? What if it’s 30% methane, 60% CO2, and 10% natural variation? CO2 would still be a problem, eh?

This is called a straw man argument. But the “trace gas” part of it is breathtakingly stupid. Try breathing an atmosphere that has trace concentrations of CO instead of CO2 and see where it gets you. Dead, is what. And pretty quickly, even at concentrations far lower than today’s CO2 levels. Trace quantities are not necessarily irrelevant.

205 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:18:32pm

re: #200 robdouth

Again: You don’t seem to be saying anything of any substance. I’m sorry.

206 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:18:56pm

re: #198 rwdflynavy

I know that’s my only beef with the bill! That and the fact that socialized medicine is a failure in so many countries.

Uh, it isn’t. The fact is that government health care really does work quite well in many countries.

207 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:19:24pm

re: #206 Charles

Uh, it isn’t. The fact is that government health care really does work quite well in many countries.

Like Great Britain and Canada?

208 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:19:39pm

re: #199 Thanos

I’ve stopped considering myself a conservative and I’ve stopped calling myself a conservative. I don’t agree with the people who now own the word, and suspect it will be as bad to be correctly called a conservative in a few years as it has been to be called a liberal the past two decades.
The conservative movement has committed suicide by parting ways with truth, and the reality of national politics. I can’t trust people who label themselves “true conservatives” anymore because I care about the long term future.

Well said. GMTA.

209 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:19:57pm

re: #201 albusteve

I dislike legislators and their minions, not the Marines or the FBI

If you vote you’re a minion of the legislators.

210 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:20:27pm

re: #206 Charles

Uh, it isn’t. The fact is that government health care really does work quite well in many countries.

With the exception of those who died waiting for treatment who were totally not in wingnuts in Washington.

211 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:20:44pm

re: #194 robdouth

I get you, but look at some of the comments. Getting told your slip is showing for arguing that the logic is weak on one argument. Automatically taking a you’re with us or against us type argument. With a crazy right and a crazy left, what do you bother calling yourself then. Most people aren’t going to sit still for the long explanation of why you are not right or left. Independent always sounded like too much of a copout, and maybe if the connotation felt more like “educated and wise independent” I’d be more comfortable with it. Maybe it’s depressing cause the only thing that seems to make news is the craziness of the right or left. There’s no vocal majority in the middle that can say, “we’re mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore.” It’s more just dump on the stupid politician more than anything.

Vocal majorities are lead by people from either wing, the middle does not rise on its own. The problem is that much, if not most of the GOP is being turned to slime by a Religious Right obsessed with purity that also cares only for motives, not real results. There is no energy in the Republican Party challenging that obsession at this time, whereas the Democrats do have sizable “Blue Dog” wing that is acting as a check on the left wing of that party (see the current health care bill for an illustration).

212 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:20:49pm

re: #205 Obdicut

Ugh already late, but I have to respond. I always have problems with the who’s crazier argument. yeah the left isn’t as angry, because they aren’t in power, but put the right in power, and the idiots will just trade sides of the spectrum. Sorry if that isn’t enough substance for you, but I’m pressed for time.

213 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:21:13pm

re: #207 rwdflynavy

Like Great Britain and Canada?

Exactly. Now you’re catching on.

214 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:22:02pm

OT: Crist and Rubio Tied in FL Senate Primary

I’m tempted to donate to Crist just to keep that teabagger out.

The new Rasmussen poll of the Florida Republican Senate primary has big news for conservative insurgent candidate Marco Rubio — he’s now tied with moderate Gov. Charlie Crist, the favorite of the GOP establishment.

In the new survey, the two each have 43% support, with a ±5% margin of error. Back in October, Crist was ahead by 49%-35%.

Rubio has been hammering Crist over his having campaigned alongside President Obama for the stimulus bill. And it seems to be working. The primary will be held on August 24, 2010.

215 robdouth  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:22:07pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

But that’s like saying that this healthcare bill is seriously left wing if even the middle of the democratic party is having problems with it. Wouldn’t that be an indictment of the bill? Maybe I misread you.

216 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:22:20pm

re: #199 Thanos

I’ve stopped considering myself a conservative and I’ve stopped calling myself a conservative. I don’t agree with the people who now own the word, and suspect it will be as bad to be correctly called a conservative in a few years as it has been to be called a liberal the past two decades.
The conservative movement has committed suicide by parting ways with truth, and the reality of national politics. I can’t trust people who label themselves “true conservatives” anymore because I care about the long term future.

Don’t get lost in the hoo-ha Thanos. Limited government, free markets, and a strong national defense. Say it again!

217 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:23:09pm

re: #202 windsagio

so the next question, (which you don’t have to answer) do you have more than two ex-wives?

I don’t blog elsewhere…this is home for me til Charles decides otherwise

218 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:23:13pm

re: #215 robdouth

Houston, we have a problem! We have failed to meet escape velocity!

219 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:23:25pm

re: #213 Basho

Exactly. Now you’re catching on.

It actually was failing quite badly in Canada, until the introduction of some private insurance shorted waiting lists and gave some real expansion of care.

220 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:23:50pm

re: #194 robdouth

I get you, but look at some of the comments. Getting told your slip is showing for arguing that the logic is weak on one argument. Automatically taking a you’re with us or against us type argument. With a crazy right and a crazy left, what do you bother calling yourself then. Most people aren’t going to sit still for the long explanation of why you are not right or left. Independent always sounded like too much of a copout, and maybe if the connotation felt more like “educated and wise independent” I’d be more comfortable with it. Maybe it’s depressing cause the only thing that seems to make news is the craziness of the right or left. There’s no vocal majority in the middle that can say, “we’re mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore.” It’s more just dump on the stupid politician more than anything.

There’s the diagnosis, right there. Everything looks crazier, or stupider, or whathaveyou-er, in the news. Just try to remember that there are other people in the country besides politicians, demonstrators, entertainers, and criminals. Remember all the normal people you know or know of, who do praiseworthy things, whether or not they get any broader recognition. Of such humble human strata are good societies made.

221 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:23:52pm

re: #217 albusteve

hehe ok, sorry, just havin’ some fun :) Its good to get along with you this time (kinda) so I’m savoring it in my own wierd little way :D

222 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:24:27pm

re: #196 windsagio

its just that theres this guy who posts on another board I read sometimes that you remind me of (no I don’t mean it as an insult). He also really dislikes the government, tries to live off the grid, etc etc.

I’m just hunting for clues if yer the same guy :)

Ask him if he’s blogsurfing by candlelight.

223 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:24:39pm
224 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:24:56pm

re: #212 robdouth

Well, it seems a rather flat and simplistic argument. The left and the right are not actually two ends of a spectrum in any real way.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:25:11pm

re: #188 Thanos

Omigosh! Palin’s state is the beneficiary of a Federal SCIENCE grant, she’s got to be a RINO

/or a hypocrite

I’m sure it’s OK as long as it brings money into Alaska.

//They deserve it because, you know, they’re just so damn authentic.

226 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:25:46pm

re: #216 BruceKelly

Don’t get lost in the hoo-ha Thanos. Limited government, free markets, and a strong national defense. Say it again!

I still support that, but I don’t have to be a conservative to do so. I’ll still be a Republican and in here fighting for the party until 2010, but if the luddite loons and Religious Right still own the party lock stock and barrel by then I will be registering D before Thanksgiving day 2010.

I will be watching the primaries, if Rubio overturns Crist, and several other contests.

227 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:25:57pm

re: #221 windsagio

hehe ok, sorry, just havin’ some fun :) Its good to get along with you this time (kinda) so I’m savoring it in my own wierd little way :D

I get along with everybody, unless they needlessly attack me or my friends and elders here

228 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:26:18pm

re: #213 Basho

Exactly. Now you’re catching on.

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
“British health care is little better than that of former Communist countries, which spend a fraction of the billions poured into the NHS”—the National Health Service—reports London’s Daily Mail:

British cancer and heart attack victims are more likely to die than almost anywhere in the developed world;

Asthma and diabetes patients are more than three times as likely to end up in hospital as their neighbours in Germany;

Life expectancy in Britain—79 years and six months for a man—is far worse than in France, where men expect to live until 81. The deficit is similar for women.

Britain performed only marginally better than former Communist states whose governments spend only half as much on healthcare.

But there is also good news for Brits, courtesy of former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

229 srjh  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:27:32pm

On a related note, the George Monbiot/Ian Plimer climate change debate that was supposed to take place earlier this year but didn’t because Plimer wouldn’t address lies and omissions in his book finally did yesterday:

[Link: www.abc.net.au…]

A little disappointing - it barely scratched the surface and consisted mainly of “Yes you did”, “No I didn’t” with the same tired climategate nonsense, but it did expose one of the key players in the climate change debate as a deeply dishonest hack.

Still worth the time.

230 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:27:39pm

re: #215 robdouth

But that’s like saying that this healthcare bill is seriously left wing if even the middle of the democratic party is having problems with it. Wouldn’t that be an indictment of the bill? Maybe I misread you.

It is an indictment of the bill as it was originally envisioned, and it is still a left leaning bill. What it looks like the moderates have done is remove its truly dangerous feature (the public option). With that gone, whats left is at worst simply a counter-productive boondoggle, and at best might actually do some good. The problem I was speaking about is that the Republican Party has no brake on its more radical members right now and the Democratic Party does.

231 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:27:45pm

re: #207 rwdflynavy

Like Great Britain and Canada?

So long as the patients have the U.S. as an escape hatch, sure.

To be fair, from what I’ve read things are less dire in continental Europe. Except for Dutch doctors euthanizing their patients too pro-actively, sometimes.

232 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:28:07pm

re: #213 Basho

Exactly. Now you’re catching on.

So waiting in line for months for simple procedures while “the rich” go to another country or to an underground private clinic (that is technically illegal but the govt looks the other way) to get it done to avoid dying while waiting is your definition of “works well”. That does not happen to be mine. Trading our current problems for those isn’t a improvement.

233 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:28:34pm

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
“The eligibility age for state-subsidized breast cancer screening has been raised from 40 to 50 by the California Health and Human Services Agency, which will also temporarily stop enrollment in the breast cancer screening program,” reports the North (San Diego) County Times:

Advocates for low-income women, whose health care the department helps pay for, say the cuts put a two-tier system in place that is based on money rather than medical standards.

But don’t worry—ObamaCare will reduce the number of tiers to one, so that rich women won’t be able to get tested either.

234 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:28:55pm

re: #227 albusteve


And we’re off!


“Elders” might not be the term you wanna use tho’. I’ve been assured that nobody on this blog is old!

(I just couldn’t resist)

235 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:29:39pm

re: #226 Thanos

I still support that, but I don’t have to be a conservative to do so. I’ll still be a Republican and in here fighting for the party until 2010, but if the luddite loons and Religious Right still own the party lock stock and barrel by then I will be registering D before Thanksgiving day 2010.

I will be watching the primaries, if Rubio overturns Crist, and several other contests.

conservatism is a lifestyle for me and politics is simply an extension of those principles…people can say and do whatever they want, but nobody speaks for me generally…if Palin is a conservative Republican it’s no matter to me…I don’t fit in like that, but I respect what you are saying

236 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:29:43pm

re: #228 rwdflynavy

England has a higher life expectancy rate than the US, fwiw.

237 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:29:44pm

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
“A mentally ill, suicidal teenager was ferried around for hours by an ambulance crew because no NHS [National Health Service] unit would accept her,” reports the BBC:

[A paramedic] wrote that the first hospital they took her to, believed to be the main psychiatric hospital in Ipswich, St Clements, “declined to accept the patient as she was a juvenile” so the ambulance was diverted to the local juvenile psychiatry facility.

They were unable to accept the patient as the staff were on an “away day”, the memo reports. It is understood this facility would not have been the agreed “place of safety” for such a patient anyway.

The receptionist suggested they contact someone from the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service nearby.

When the crew got there, they were told the patient could not be accepted.

Another unit was suggested, but this would not be open until four days later.

The patient was then taken to A&E at Ipswich Hospital, but the crew was again told the patient could not be accepted there because she had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

The paramedic said: “As there was no alternative available, we had to convey the patient to the police cells as a place of safety. This was the wrong environment for this sick and vulnerable child.”

A Suffolk Police custody log confirmed the girl was kept in the cells for six hours between 1700 GMT and 2300 GMT.

None of this would have happened if the paramedics had listened to former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

238 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:29:48pm

re: #223 Killgore Trout

Tea Party sign of the day?

Very amusing use of the ABC series “V”. It actually makes its point without seeming nasty, even if you have to know what its referring to to get it.

I’m out. I’ll be back at around 9:20.

239 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:30:51pm

re: #233 rwdflynavy

re: #237 rwdflynavy

I know lets get in a horror story war!

Oh wait, thats a meaningless and destructive way to support your position.

240 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:30:53pm

I checked to see if Dan Riehl fantasized about beating up black kids on the subway again at today’s Tea Party. He makes no mention of it but he does declare that America is doomed because only whites are patriots…..

The End Of America As We’ve Known It

Multi-culturalism, combined with immigration and birth demographics are on track to end the America we’ve know for over two-hundred years. That’s not a political opinion, it’s driven by numbers far more solid than the ones holding up the climate conspiracy.

It also likely has a great deal to do with why blacks never enjoyed much benefit from the civil rights movement of the sixties. (lol-ed) It came couched in this same misguided progressivism that is destroying traditional America today. Blacks as a whole, particularly inside the cities where they are captive to the liberal/progressive political machine, weren’t told to celebrate equality and become part of America. They were encouraged to stand apart from it.

America will survive. It’s just not clear what it’s going to look like politically, economically, and so forth. I’m just glad I knew her when and won’t be around to fully see what it becomes. I doubt most people on the ground will even understand the changes that are coming. They’ll simply see it as the America they know, but may never truly love.

241 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:31:10pm

re: #233 rwdflynavy

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
“The eligibility age for state-subsidized breast cancer screening has been raised from 40 to 50 by the California Health and Human Services Agency, which will also temporarily stop enrollment in the breast cancer screening program,” reports the North (San Diego) County Times:

Advocates for low-income women, whose health care the department helps pay for, say the cuts put a two-tier system in place that is based on money rather than medical standards.

But don’t worry—ObamaCare will reduce the number of tiers to one, so that rich women won’t be able to get tested either.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
— Winston Churchill

242 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:31:25pm

re: #234 windsagio

And we’re off!

“Elders” might not be the term you wanna use tho’. I’ve been assured that nobody on this blog is old!

(I just couldn’t resist)

I’m 57 next week, is that old enough?

243 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:31:56pm

re: #232 ArchangelMichael

So waiting in line for months for simple procedures while “the rich” go to another country or to an underground private clinic (that is technically illegal but the govt looks the other way) to get it done to avoid dying while waiting is your definition of “works well”. That does not happen to be mine. Trading our current problems for those isn’t a improvement.

Man, that sounds pretty awful. Good thing it isn’t accurate.

244 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:31:58pm

re: #241 The Sanity Inspector

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
— Winston Churchill

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

Margaret Thatcher

245 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:32:10pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

I just liked it for the lizard reference. I remember the V series from the 80’s. I don’t watch enough tv to catch the modern remake.

246 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:32:22pm

re: #234 windsagio

And we’re off!

“Elders” might not be the term you wanna use tho’. I’ve been assured that nobody on this blog is old!

(I just couldn’t resist)

it’s a matter of respect, not age…and I deeply respect some of the posters here and try to let them know without being unseemly…they know who they are, they have been here longer than me and I admire their intellect, since I have so little myself

247 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:32:48pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

Yeah. I put the cutoff at around 45. That number may change as I gain new info in coming years…

248 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:32:54pm

re: #228 rwdflynavy

Good thing we have no interest in duplicating a British system. Straw man.

249 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:33:02pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

I checked to see if Dan Riehl fantasized about beating up black kids on the subway again at today’s Tea Party. He makes no mention of it but he does declare that America is doomed because only whites are patriots…

The End Of America As We’ve Known It

Why I left the right: Dan Riehl, racist, homophobic, belligerent, full of hate and dumb as a post.

250 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:33:11pm

re: #246 albusteve

it’s a matter of respect, not age…and I deeply respect some of the posters here and try to let them know without being unseemly…they know who they are, they have been here longer than me and I admire their intellect, since I have so little myself

You got that right :) Yo….

251 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:33:20pm

re: #226 Thanos

I still support that, but I don’t have to be a conservative to do so. I’ll still be a Republican and in here fighting for the party until 2010, but if the luddite loons and Religious Right still own the party lock stock and barrel by then I will be registering D before Thanksgiving day 2010.

I will be watching the primaries, if Rubio overturns Crist, and several other contests.

Good luck with the “D”s.

252 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:33:36pm

re: #248 recusancy

Good thing we have no interest in duplicating a British system. Straw man.

That’s a relief!!

253 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:33:47pm

re: #239 windsagio

re: #237 rwdflynavy

I know lets get in a horror story war!

Oh wait, thats a meaningless and destructive way to support your position.

Why? Sampling and confirmation bias are how debates are won.
/

254 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:34:18pm

re: #243 Basho

Man, that sounds pretty awful. Good thing it isn’t accurate.

Bullshit… That is Canada… there’s a fucking mountain of evidence to prove so. You even updinged Dark Falcon for saying basically the same thing. They had to setup black market private clinics in Canada to stop it from imploding.

255 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:34:28pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

You got that right :) Yo…

oh no!….not you again!
hello amigo

256 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:34:29pm

re: #248 recusancy

Good thing we have no interest in duplicating a British system. Straw man.

Too bad. They live longer on average =/

257 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:35:20pm

re: #255 albusteve

oh no!…not you again!
hello amigo

If you could read my mind…

258 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:35:26pm

re: #246 albusteve

Well, then, why… Actually, you know what? F it. This could go around in circles for hours and doesn’t add anything to any of the discussions in this thread.

259 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:36:01pm

re: #254 ArchangelMichael

Bullshit… That is Canada… there’s a fucking mountain of evidence to prove so. You even updinged Dark Falcon for saying basically the same thing. They had to setup black market private clinics in Canada to stop it from imploding.

Canadians live almost 3 years longer on average, fwiw.

260 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:36:59pm

re: #223 Killgore Trout

Tea Party sign of the day?

Wonder if I can get that made into a t-shirt….

261 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:37:47pm

Looks like people don’t want to believe that government-run health care really can work.

This is another area where the national debate has been pretty well poisoned by special interests.

Here’s a video featuring Canadian citizens talking about their health care system:

262 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:38:11pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

Very amusing use of the ABC series “V”. It actually makes its point without seeming nasty, even if you have to know what its referring to to get it.

I’m out. I’ll be back at around 9:20.

Is that really referential to the series, or to the Luap Nor crowd’s affection for the movie V for Vendetta and Guy Fawkes masks?

263 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:38:31pm

re: #231 The Sanity Inspector

So long as the patients have the U.S. as an escape hatch, sure.

To be fair, from what I’ve read things are less dire in continental Europe. Except for Dutch doctors euthanizing their patients too pro-actively, sometimes.

Death panels!

264 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:38:46pm

Copenhagen update: It’s past 2:30am and the LCA ad hoc group is still at it. The microphone is turned off, but the last thing the chair asked was that the G77 and China reps meet off to the side with another group.

Not that minutiae like this is all that important, but I can only surmise that there is very strong pressure being put to have something ready for President Obama to sign on Friday. There is great expectation that the US and China will agree to something. It can’t be over the Kyoto Protocol, since the US did not agree to that, so the “Long-term Cooperative Action” agreement will have to be the only thing the US can sign.

265 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:38:48pm

re: #259 Basho

I also, notice that they never mention Germany, which has the oldest universal socialized health care plan in the world! and does exceptionally well in almost all measures of public health, despite losing 2 world wars and 40 years of separation.

Afaik, the examples they use are always the countries that have systems the closest to ours!

266 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:39:03pm

You might also want to take a look at the graph on this page:

FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Why Progressives Are Batshit Crazy to Oppose the Senate Bill

Here’s the graph:

Image: ZZ270A004A.jpg

267 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:39:20pm

re: #258 windsagio

Well, then, why… Actually, you know what? F it. This could go around in circles for hours and doesn’t add anything to any of the discussions in this thread.

why what?…what circles?

268 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:39:24pm

re: #236 Basho

England has a higher life expectancy rate than the US, fwiw.

The life expectancy thing is really meaningless. It includes murder, car accidents, etc and is reported differently by each country. I don’t see the relevance in the health care debate. Survival rates for diseases however is relevant. Wait times for treatment is relevant.

269 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:39:58pm

re: #236 Basho

Not if you take out traffic fatalities. We drive more, faster, and younger than the Brits.

270 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:40:02pm

re: #259 Basho

C’mon now, you know they live longer because their stamina is increased by standing in long lines and, most importantly, they have no extra money to spend on vice.

271 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:40:13pm

re: #261 Charles

Looks like people don’t want to believe that government-run health care really can work.

This is another area where the national debate has been pretty well poisoned by special interests.

Here’s a video featuring Canadian citizens talking about their health care system:


[Video]

Man, I know people have some fears. But the irrational anger this has stirred here has caught me off guard.

272 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:40:59pm

re: #262 Thanos

It’s been rumored in some circles that the V remake was a metaphor for Obamaland.

273 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:41:16pm

re: #270 Jeff In Ohio

C’mon now, you know they live longer because their stamina is increased by standing in long lines and, most importantly, they have no extra money to spend on vice.

lol
You got me. Now Castro and Chavez won’t send me my severance payments.

274 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:41:38pm

re: #265 windsagio

I also, notice that they never mention Germany, which has the oldest universal socialized health care plan in the world! and does exceptionally well in almost all measures of public health, despite losing 2 world wars and 40 years of separation.

Afaik, the examples they use are always the countries that have systems the closest to ours!

And has exceptionally high taxes, and a defense budget subsidized by the US via NATO.

275 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:41:53pm

re: #266 Charles

You might also want to take a look at the graph on this page:

FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Why Progressives Are Batshit Crazy to Oppose the Senate Bill

Here’s the graph:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

The failure of R’s to address health care and energy costs while they had power is the main reason Bush’s legacy will be so tarnished.

276 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:41:58pm

re: #271 Basho

Man, I know people have some fears. But the irrational anger this has stirred here has caught me off guard.

I am active duty Navy and my family is eligible for “free” govt health care. I pay the premiums to have more control over their healthcare and ensure they are seen by civilian providers.

277 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:42:36pm

re: #261 Charles

Agreed. I talk to Brits all the time about it. Some people complain but most people like it. Even the ones who complain would never want to go to a US style system.

278 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:42:36pm

re: #261 Charles

Looks like people don’t want to believe that government-run health care really can work.

This is another area where the national debate has been pretty well poisoned by special interests.

Here’s a video featuring Canadian citizens talking about their health care system:


Most of what they learn about Canadian health care is based on what they’ve watched on Fox News, read on Malkin’s blog, and the usual propaganda by Heartland Institute and other like that. There’s a lot of health insurance denial going on. Most of the people that are highly critical don’t care because they either already have a government health program of their own or private insurance from a company they work for.

279 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:42:39pm

re: #261 Charles

Looks like people don’t want to believe that government-run health care really can work.

This is another area where the national debate has been pretty well poisoned by special interests.

Here’s a video featuring Canadian citizens talking about their health care system:


[Video]

This video shows how Fox creates straw men in the debate to make it seem like Obama wanted to create a British system when that was completely untrue.

280 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:42:48pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

I just liked it for the lizard reference. I remember the V series from the 80’s. I don’t watch enough tv to catch the modern remake.

It’s pretty good, much better than the ’80s version. You should check it out if you have the time.

281 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:42:55pm

re: #268 jayzee

The life expectancy thing is really meaningless. It includes murder, car accidents, etc and is reported differently by each country. I don’t see the relevance in the health care debate. Survival rates for diseases however is relevant. Wait times for treatment is relevant.

I didn’t bring up the life expectancy thing.

282 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:43:07pm

re: #266 Charles

You might also want to take a look at the graph on this page:

FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Why Progressives Are Batshit Crazy to Oppose the Senate Bill

Here’s the graph:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

I hope that you make a thread out of that Charles. If those numbers from the CBO are accurate then there is no reason for any American to oppose these bills. They really are just being used to generate profits for the companies, and the GOP really is just playing to it’s corporate masters.

283 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:43:25pm

re: #261 Charles

Looks like people don’t want to believe that government-run health care really can work.

This is another area where the national debate has been pretty well poisoned by special interests.

Here’s a video featuring Canadian citizens talking about their health care system:


Certainly has…

Special Interest Money Means Longer Odds for Public Option - Nate Silver

284 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:43:29pm

I have to say that Gore isn’t exactly my first choice of spokesperson for AGW. While he deserves a lot of credit and props for being an early and outspoken convert who helped bring attention to the issue he just isn’t a good spokesperson. He routinely makes major gaffes and mis-statements concerning the science that are then ridiculed, as is his consumerist lifestyle while calling for others to eshew the same.

Fine, in this case the scientist he was quoting didn’t feel like being held accountable for his own prior statements and tried to duck them. Gore didn’t do or say anything patently wrong here apparently, but he has in other cases. We have enough to deal just trying to get people to accept the climate science as reality without also trying to convince them that Gore is credible as a knowledgeable source for climate science fact.

285 albusteve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:44:15pm

re: #274 ArchangelMichael

And has exceptionally high taxes, and a defense budget subsidized by the US via NATO.

a point I made yesterday…the burden of financial responsibility world wide is heavy on the US…Japan has done quite well investing otherwise ‘dead end’ money into their economy….there is no other country to compare to the US, in hardly any regard

286 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:45:11pm

re: #282 LudwigVanQuixote

I hope that you make a thread out of that Charles. If those numbers from the CBO are accurate then there is no reason for any American to oppose these bills. They really are just being used to generate profits for the companies, and the GOP really is just playing to it’s corporate masters.

Which corporate masters are you suggesting the GOP is playing to?

287 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:45:30pm

Debunking Canadian health care myths

As a Canadian living in the United States for the past 17 years, I am frequently asked by Americans and Canadians alike to declare one health care system as the better one.

Often I’ll avoid answering, regardless of the questioner’s nationality. To choose one or the other system usually translates into a heated discussion of each one’s merits, pitfalls, and an intense recitation of commonly cited statistical comparisons of the two systems…

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty — who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care — will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

288 jayzee  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:45:44pm

re: #281 Basho

I didn’t bring up the life expectancy thing.

I know. I saw that. I wasn’t implying you did. Just sharing my thoughts on it.

On another note- Good night all, thanks for helping me take my mind off dad’s yahrtzeit for a bit.

289 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:45:56pm

re: #274 ArchangelMichael

Wait, how does any of that apply to the fact that their system has been in place for 130 years and is still excellent?

re: #276 rwdflynavy

Well, I suppose you have the courage of your convictions anwyays. Paying more for a largely inferior service is crazy tho’

re: #285 albusteve

I suspect at this point they’d do okay without NATO, the German military is no joke. But Don’t let me get in the way of the fetishization of the US military!

290 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:46:31pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

Agreed. I talk to Brits all the time about it. Some people complain but most people like it. Even the ones who complain would never want to go to a US style system.

If I wasn’t in this system already with its problems I wouldn’t want to either. I’m not pretending it’s not broke, I don’t see trading one set of problems for another to be of any net gain.

291 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:46:39pm

re: #269 BruceKelly

Not if you take out traffic fatalities. We drive more, faster, and younger than the Brits.

For years, the Centers for Disease Control has been using a public health model for traffic accident epidemiology. Same thing has been applied to violence and childhood injuries. This meshes quite well with a cost-reduction effort in health insurance. It might not be appropriate to “take them out”.

[Link: www.google.com…]

292 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:46:42pm

re: #286 cliffster

Which corporate masters are you suggesting the GOP is playing to?

Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. The graph, if accurate speaks for itself.

They are the ones who will have less blood to draw.

Seriously look at graphs.

293 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:46:45pm

The Netherlands have a great Government run care..Oh and the average life of the Dutch is the highest in Europe and America..81 1/2 yrs old…
The readers digest version is that everyone and I mean everyone pays premiums month..From 125-150 euro’s a month..It doesn’t matter if you are unemployed..They deduct it..Or rich folks..Every single person pays a reasonable deductible and they get world class heath care…
Everybody pays and everyone benefits from spreading out the cost to every citizen…

294 rwdflynavy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:47:05pm

re: #289 windsagio

Wait, how does any of that apply to the fact that their system has been in place for 130 years and is still excellent?

re: #276 rwdflynavy

Well, I suppose you have the courage of your convictions anwyays. Paying more for a largely inferior service is crazy tho’

re: #285 albusteve

I suspect at this point they’d do okay without NATO, the German military is no joke. But Don’t let me get in the way of the fetishization of the US military!

You must be an expert on military healthcare in the US. I bow to your experience. I’ve only lived it for 41 years.

295 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:47:45pm

re: #272 Jeff In Ohio

It’s been rumored in some circles that the V remake was a metaphor for Obamaland.

Well I’m old enough to remember the original, “The Invaders” a Quinn Martin production that starred Roy Thinnes.

296 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:48:21pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

When I had family living in England for 5 years, they were advised by friends to have private insurance in addition to the National Health, by all of their friends living in the UK. It meant rapid access to doctors, was the reason, IIRC.

297 coachbob  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #14 Charles

Another sleeper awakes. Your last comment was two years ago. Have you been asleep under a tree somewhere?

Nice ad hom. Doesn’t address his post, though.

298 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:49:51pm

re: #276 rwdflynavy

I am active duty Navy and my family is eligible for “free” govt health care. I pay the premiums to have more control over their healthcare and ensure they are seen by civilian providers.

It’s nice to have that option.

299 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:50:13pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. The graph, if accurate speaks for itself.

They are the ones who will have less blood to draw.

Seriously look at graphs.

Graphs are easy to make. I’ve seen a lot of graphs that don’t match up at all with what I’m paying, or anyone that I know. Besides, do you really think that Democrats are not in the insurance companies’ back pockets, and that the insurance companies are cowering in the corner, praying that nothing gets passed?

300 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:50:18pm

Say what you want about US medicine not being as good as say Great Britain but Mrs Big Steve was diagnosed with breast cancer back in April. We happen to live in the city (Houston) with THE BEST cancer hospital in the world….MD Anderson. This is just not me speaking but just about every journal on the study. I got to say that MDA is absolutely wonderful and my wife’s treatment has gone well. People come from all over the world to this hospital. In fact they have a whole wing on the breast cancer building just for Muslim women. So when people are sick and they can afford to, just see where they are going…..to US hospital.

Also our medical insurance is pretty much the run-of-the-mill company plan and we are out less than $500 for her entire treatment. So I for one am not someone who says the current system is broken.

301 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:50:32pm

re: #289 windsagio

Take all foreign aid from the US to Europe away, and place bets on how long before they are teetering on bankruptcy or making serious changes to the way they do things.

302 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:51:36pm

OT: Watch for the New York Times Magazine profile on little ol’ me to appear in about two weeks, right after Christmas.

303 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:52:10pm

re: #300 Big Steve

Say what you want about US medicine not being as good as say Great Britain but Mrs Big Steve was diagnosed with breast cancer back in April. We happen to live in the city (Houston) with THE BEST cancer hospital in the world…MD Anderson. This is just not me speaking but just about every journal on the study. I got to say that MDA is absolutely wonderful and my wife’s treatment has gone well. People come from all over the world to this hospital. In fact they have a whole wing on the breast cancer building just for Muslim women. So when people are sick and they can afford to, just see where they are going…to US hospital.

Also our medical insurance is pretty much the run-of-the-mill company plan and we are out less than $500 for her entire treatment. So I for one am not someone who says the current system is broken.

If you lost/changed your job you’d probably go bankrupt.

304 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:53:37pm

re: #294 rwdflynavy

I grew up under that system, and later worked pretty closely with providers up in Seattle. I always had (and saw) better care under TRICARE than I have had since under public providers. Lets hear your stories tho’. How did TRICARE mess up YOUR kids care?

re: #301 ArchangelMichael

Well Europe is pretty big, I think the states we’re actually talking about would do pretty well… We’re not as important as you think. Also, you’re speculating. Prove that Germany, France, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, etc need US aid.

305 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:53:52pm

re: #300 Big Steve

MD Anderson kept my aunt around a year longer than we expected. It was a very nice year. I miss her a lot, but I’m glad for the Christmas, New Years, Spring Break, her birthday, and my Mom’s birthday that we had while she was still springy and the cancer stayed back. I think they might have paid one thousand. The treatment cost in the six figures, all paid for by pharmaceuticals and insurance companies. Those evil bastards.

306 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:54:08pm

My ex-pat friend is due for her annual visit (from France) so she can bring her kids to the doctor & dentist. It’s all out of pocket but she thinks it is worth it… who am I to argue.

307 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:54:26pm

re: #304 windsagio

If they don’t need it they shouldn’t be getting it.

308 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:54:44pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. The graph, if accurate speaks for itself.

They are the ones who will have less blood to draw.

Seriously look at graphs.

How about the facts…….Big Pharma has been giving equally to democrats as they do republicans…..Pharmaceuticals Political donations

309 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:54:52pm

re: #301 ArchangelMichael

Take all foreign aid from the US to Europe away, and place bets on how long before they are teetering on bankruptcy or making serious changes to the way they do things.

This is a fairly quick and dirty link, but Europe isn’t living high on our hog. None in the top 10.

[Link: www.parade.com…]

310 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:54:57pm

re: #281 Basho

I didn’t bring up the life expectancy thing.

?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

311 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:55:13pm

re: #300 Big Steve

Say what you want about US medicine not being as good as say Great Britain but Mrs Big Steve was diagnosed with breast cancer back in April. We happen to live in the city (Houston) with THE BEST cancer hospital in the world…MD Anderson. This is just not me speaking but just about every journal on the study. I got to say that MDA is absolutely wonderful and my wife’s treatment has gone well. People come from all over the world to this hospital. In fact they have a whole wing on the breast cancer building just for Muslim women. So when people are sick and they can afford to, just see where they are going…to US hospital.

Also our medical insurance is pretty much the run-of-the-mill company plan and we are out less than $500 for her entire treatment. So I for one am not someone who says the current system is broken.

Very cool - glad your wife is getting excellent treatment.

There are other examples of people with a different health care plan, or none at all, and they pay through the nose or end up losing everything they own.

What if you were allowed to keep your existing health care coverage? And instead of an insurance carrier, everyone paid in to a government fund? And the government negotiated better prices? For everyone.

312 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:55:39pm

re: #308 Big Steve

How about the facts…Big Pharma has been giving equally to democrats as they do republicans…Pharmaceuticals Political donations

Which is why the current health bill has been neutered even with a 60 vote majority.

313 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:03pm

re: #284 ausador

I have to say that Gore isn’t exactly my first choice of spokesperson for AGW. While he deserves a lot of credit and props for being an early and outspoken convert who helped bring attention to the issue he just isn’t a good spokesperson. He routinely makes major gaffes and mis-statements concerning the science that are then ridiculed, as is his consumerist lifestyle while calling for others to eshew the same.

Fine, in this case the scientist he was quoting didn’t feel like being held accountable for his own prior statements and tried to duck them. Gore didn’t do or say anything patently wrong here apparently, but he has in other cases. We have enough to deal just trying to get people to accept the climate science as reality without also trying to convince them that Gore is credible as a knowledgeable source for climate science fact.

Good post, nothing there I can disagree with.

For me personally, I would add one more thing:

I have no problem with Gore living in a huge house. For well-known people, celebrities or politicians - they have a right to privacy, and for those sorts of folks, living in an all-inclusive large home is the only way they can get it. Me - I can live anywhere in complete privacy because no one knows (or cares) who I am.

BUT - For Gore to routinely make speeches that amount to LECTURES to those of us who already have a MUCH smaller carbon footprint than he could ever imagine having - that’s what galls me about Gore. He could make his point without the superior-sounding lectures.

314 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:13pm

re: #185 windsagio

I’m sorry you just read as a guy who is laying doubt wherever he can, but just knows that being actively anti-AGW will get you reamed out good on this site… So you do the ‘I believe in it, but none of these arguments work!’ trick.

The utterly rabid hatred of Al Gore was pretty telling too.

He’s not doing that. He’s saying that this particular argument is a loser. As to rabid hatred of Al Gore, it’s not rabid hatred to observe that the man has little knowledge of science and that as a result he falls into comical errors from time to time when he tries to discuss the science. And that’s being charitable. Sometimes, the only reasonable conclusion is that Gore lies when he thinks it will work.

His lies and errors serve as grist for the mills of the deniers. We need better spokesmen. For all his faults, Gore is fundamentally right on the main question: AGW is a clear and present danger. For all his being right on that, his faults gravely obstruct getting the word out and convincing those who are not already in the choir.

315 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:24pm

re: #309 Decatur Deb

Does not take into account the money we’ve sunk into NATO for 60 years.

316 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:40pm

re: #307 ArchangelMichael

Well, thats our fault. I can’t find any evidence of us directly giving the French, British, or German government money anyways. I’m all for us pulling our forces out tho’, they’d like it, and it’d save us a ton of money!

317 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:45pm

Myths and falsehoods about health care reform
August 20, 2009 7:25 am ET — 180 Comments

Media Matters for America identifies and debunks 14 myths and falsehoods surrounding the health care reform debate.
MYTH 1: There is no health care crisis

CLAIM: The health care system currently works fine, and only a purportedly small number of uninsured people would benefit from reform.

* RUSH LIMBAUGH: “There really isn’t a crisis in health care in this country. The crisis in health care that — if you wanna say, that does exist — is the fear that a major illness or catastrophe could wipe you out, which isn’t gonna change. In fact, the odds of you being wiped out by a catastrophe or accident once the government gets started running this stuff is greater than if the private sector — but day-to-day, there’s no health care crisis in this country. You can get it. So, it isn’t about health care, per se. This is just about gaining control, taking money, and controlling people’s lives, and wiping out Republicans — a nice cherry on top.” [Premiere Radio Networks’ The Rush Limbaugh Show, 6/18/09]

* STEVE DOOCY: “Currently, 90 percent of all Americans have got some sort of health care coverage, which means they are effectively blowing up the system for 5 percent. Now, the 5 percent, you gotta worry about them — you gotta worry about everybody who doesn’t have it. But is it worth all of this for 5 percent?” [Fox News’ Fox & Friends, 7/30/09]

REALITY: Roughly 25 million Americans were underinsured in 2007. According to Cathy Schoen, senior vice president of The Commonwealth Fund, “From 2003 to 2007, the number of adults who were insured all year but were underinsured increased by 60 percent. Based on those who incur high out-of-pocket costs relative to their income not counting premiums despite having coverage all year, an estimated 25 million adults under age 65 were underinsured in 2007.” [Testimony from Schoen before the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, 2/24/09]

The underinsured do not receive adequate care and face financial hardship. Schoen explained that the “experiences” of the underinsured were “similar” to those of the uninsured, noting that “over half of the underinsured and two thirds of the uninsured went without recommended treatment, follow-up care, medications or did not see a doctor when sick. Half of both groups faced financial stress, including medical debt.” [Schoen testimony, 2/24/09]

Insurance companies currently rescind policies when their insured customers need treatment. Insurance companies restrict or deny coverage by rescinding health insurance policies on the grounds that customers had undisclosed pre-existing conditions. On June 16, a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee held a hearing exploring this practice, with the goal of examining “the practice of ‘post-claims underwriting,’ which occurs when insurance companies cancel individual health insurance policies after providers submit claims for medical services rendered.” The committee also released a memorandum finding that three major American insurance companies rescinded 19,776 policies for over $300 million in savings over five years and that even that number “significantly undercounts the total number of rescissions” by the companies.

Currently, insurance companies deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions. CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen wrote in a May 14 CNN.com article, “According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, 21 percent of people who apply for health insurance on their own get turned down, charged a higher price or offered a plan that excludes coverage for their pre-existing condition. … The health insurance industry doesn’t deny that people are rejected or charged higher premiums because of pre-existing conditions.”

318 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:56:52pm

re: #304 windsagio

Well Europe is pretty big, I think the states we’re actually talking about would do pretty well… We’re not as important as you think. Also, you’re speculating. Prove that Germany, France, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, etc need US aid.

They can always take from the Chinese savings pot like us anyway.

319 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:57:27pm

re: #312 recusancy

Which is why the current health bill has been neutered even with a 60 vote majority.

well we got lucky this time :)

320 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:57:35pm

re: #287 Gus 802

Debunking Canadian health care myths

That was interesting, and I’m glad Aunt Betty will get her knee.

The problem I see with it is that everyone must wait a year or more for the procedures they need. If I had had to wait 14 months for the medical care I’m getting now, I would be dead. And that’s all I’m gonna say, this topic is too emotional for me.

321 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:57:37pm

re: #297 coachbob

Facts aren’t ad hominem, and the rest is an honest question. Which tree have you been sleeping under ?

322 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:57:44pm

re: #303 recusancy

If you lost/changed your job you’d probably go bankrupt.

I did change jobs right in the middle…..we just switched from my company to her’s. They accepted her with knowledge of her condition.

323 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:58:21pm

One point I’d like to make - the current health care bill on the table, from what I’ve heard, is a disaster. It is so laden with pork it is a joke. Everyone begins paying for it in 2010, yet no one can receive any benefit from it until 2014.

We can do better.

324 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:58:40pm

re: #318 Basho

are you trying to make me weep?

325 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:58:43pm

re: #296 Floral Giraffe

Their system is wierd. Even if you have private insurance you need a referral From an NHS doctor. They have a lot of bureaucratic complications but it’s not nearly the nightmare that American conservatives claim it is.

326 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:59:11pm

re: #323 Racer X

One point I’d like to make - the current health care bill on the table, from what I’ve heard, is a disaster. It is so laden with pork it is a joke. Everyone begins paying for it in 2010, yet no one can receive any benefit from it until 2014.

We can do better.

Howard Dean is with you!

327 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:59:29pm

re: #320 reine.de.tout

That was interesting, and I’m glad Aunt Betty will get her knee.

The problem I see with it is that everyone must wait a year or more for the procedures they need. If I had had to wait 14 months for the medical care I’m getting now, I would be dead. And that’s all I’m gonna say, this topic is too emotional for me.

I hear you. I kind of get worked up over it myself. I don’t have any health insurance nor can I afford it. Plus I’m in the middle ground financially so I can’t really qualify for any programs.

What fun.

There’s a problem regardless. A very big problem.

328 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:59:31pm

re: #315 ArchangelMichael

Does not take into account the money we’ve sunk into NATO for 60 years.

I was part of that. Sometimes thought of it as “leasing the battlespace”.

329 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:59:33pm

re: #306 brookly red

My ex-pat friend is due for her annual visit (from France) so she can bring her kids to the doctor & dentist. It’s all out of pocket but she thinks it is worth it… who am I to argue.

My ex has family that come to the US once every 2 years. Bet you can guess what they do while they are here other than go to Disneyland.

330 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:59:38pm

re: #326 bratwurst

Howard Dean is with you!

I just threw up a little.

331 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:00:17pm

re: #322 Big Steve

I did change jobs right in the middle…we just switched from my company to her’s. They accepted her with knowledge of her condition.

You’re extremely lucky then. If that happened with regularity we wouldn’t have as big of a problem in this country.

332 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:00:32pm

re: #300 Big Steve

I hear you man. My daughter and dad have been through some tough shit this year and there’s little end in sight. We are fortunate my wife’s job is secure and has a bonzo benefit plan, though it gets more every year and my old man is covered through medicare and the VA. I’m not going to pretend to know what the answer is, but if it ultimately means that we have to pay more so the guy down the street who just lost his job gets a chance to see a doctor without going to the emergency room, then I’ll sign on to that. It’s my belief the social compact we implicitly agree to by living participating in this economy and society entitles people to a minimum of care and it’s time to stop kicking that can down the road.

333 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:00:49pm

re: #325 Killgore Trout

Their system is wierd. Even if you have private insurance you need a referral From an NHS doctor. They have a lot of bureaucratic complications but it’s not nearly the nightmare that American conservatives claim it is.

You are still paying taxes for services you cant get, while paying out the nose to get service you can.

334 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:00:50pm

re: #323 Racer X

One point I’d like to make - the current health care bill on the table, from what I’ve heard, is a disaster. It is so laden with pork it is a joke. Everyone begins paying for it in 2010, yet no one can receive any benefit from it until 2014.

We can do better.

There’s a lot of misinformation out there. It’s just a hunch but I suspect it will do some good. I think the only real danger is making too many concessions to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

335 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:01:04pm

re: #244 rwdflynavy

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

Margaret Thatcher

Not everyone who cries “the poor! the poor!” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
—???[I think Michael Novak]

336 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:02:16pm

re: #327 Gus 802

I hear you. I kind of get worked up over it myself. I don’t have any health insurance nor can I afford it. Plus I’m in the middle ground financially so I can’t really qualify for any programs.

What fun.

There’s a problem regardless. A very big problem.

I’m a freelancer so I buy my own and just got my rates jacked up 45% a couple months ago. That’s kind of a big jump. I’m young and healthy too.

337 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:02:17pm

re: #322 Big Steve

I did change jobs right in the middle…we just switched from my company to her’s. They accepted her with knowledge of her condition.

That’s a happy ending. I do know that that is where the problem lies, and your situation is a good one.

I’m going to say a prayer for Mrs Big tonight. In fact I just did. I wish yall well.

338 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:02:49pm

re: #335 The Sanity Inspector

Not everyone who cries “the poor! the poor!” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
—???[I think Michael Novak]

but unfortunately they do enter the halls of congress…

339 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:01pm

re: #291 Decatur Deb

For years, the Centers for Disease Control has been using a public health model for traffic accident epidemiology. Same thing has been applied to violence and childhood injuries. This meshes quite well with a cost-reduction effort in health insurance. It might not be appropriate to “take them out”.

[Link: www.google.com…]

Good link, but it was about work-related car accidents. I don’t think that the great majority of Amercan auto accidents are work related.

Am I missing something?

340 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:11pm

re: #302 Charles

OT: Watch for the New York Times Magazine profile on little ol’ me to appear in about two weeks, right after Christmas.

Awesome! I got an invite to do a talk at the SCOPES conference in Orlando, Fl on April 11th.. But I’ll be in Singapore then..I had my talk all written out..
Being an global support IT person is F*cking Hell..meet me at the beach and bring beer…
Lucky for them…:)

341 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:36pm

re: #334 Killgore Trout

There’s a lot of misinformation out there. It’s just a hunch but I suspect it will do some good. I think the only real danger is making too many concessions to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

absolutely! We need to crack the door open, and things will get better over time. Its the positive slippery slope.

Thats why the hardcore lefties in congress are being so destructive when they posture that they won’t vote for it because ‘its not enough!’

342 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:42pm

re: #311 Racer X

And instead of an insurance carrier, everyone paid in to a government fund? And the government negotiated better prices? For everyone.

So why is medical insurance different than say every other thing. Just about everyone needs a computer these days. Why don’t we pay into a fund and let the government negotiate with Microsoft/Apple to get us better prices?

343 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:50pm

re: #334 Killgore Trout

There’s a lot of misinformation out there. It’s just a hunch but I suspect it will do some good. I think the only real danger is making too many concessions to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

Does anyone have a link to the CURRENT health care bill?

344 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:03:51pm

re: #334 Killgore Trout

I think making a Health Care Bill, that reads like the Tax Codes is a big part of the problem. And if the agency functions like the Post Office, well, that’s a government run program.

I agree that “something” has to be done.

I’m buying private insurance from the market and for the same price, as when I was employed, I’m buying 60% less coverage. Basically, I’m planning on using it as “catastrophic insurance” only.

345 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:04:31pm

re: #323 Racer X

This bill seems to be a moving set, but here are the things that would take effect immediately.

[Link: dpc.senate.gov…]

346 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:04:33pm

re: #327 Gus 802

I hear you. I kind of get worked up over it myself. I don’t have any health insurance nor can I afford it. Plus I’m in the middle ground financially so I can’t really qualify for any programs.

What fun.

There’s a problem regardless. A very big problem.

Gus -
If you lived in Louisiana, you wouldn’t have a problem.
I’ve posted this before.

347 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:04:40pm

re: #336 recusancy

I’m a freelancer so I buy my own and just got my rates jacked up 45% a couple months ago. That’s kind of a big jump. I’m young and healthy too.

45% is a huge jump. Good thing you can afford it. What if you couldn’t? Or others that can’t.

348 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:05:03pm

re: #344 Floral Giraffe

And if the agency functions like the Post Office, well, that’s a government run program.

I’m confused, are you posting this as a GOOD thing or a BAD thing?

349 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:05:17pm

re: #343 Racer X

Does anyone have a link to the CURRENT health care bill?

If such a thing existed…

350 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:05:36pm

re: #342 Big Steve

So why is medical insurance different than say every other thing. Just about everyone needs a computer these days. Why don’t we pay into a fund and let the government negotiate with Microsoft/Apple to get us better prices?

I would be against that.

Government run health care I am now leaning towards it being a good idea. But not what is currently on the table.

351 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:05:45pm

re: #323 Racer X

One point I’d like to make - the current health care bill on the table, from what I’ve heard, is a disaster. It is so laden with pork it is a joke. Everyone begins paying for it in 2010, yet no one can receive any benefit from it until 2014.

We can do better.

The only way a working plan will come about is if a couple of Congressmen and a couple of doctors get together, lock themselves in a room for a few months without any distractions or lobbyists and hammer out a plan. Then insist it gets an up or down vote as is, no pork, no amendments. Yes or no. If the rest of Congress gets their paws on it, it’s doomed to be a clusterfuck of extraordinary magnitude. The current atrocity in the Senate is case and point. Too many interests and egos. Too many cooks spoiling the broth.

352 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:05:48pm

re: #294 rwdflynavy

You must be an expert on military healthcare in the US. I bow to your experience. I’ve only lived it for 41 years.

You showed great restraint with that response (Salute).

353 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:06:02pm

re: #348 windsagio

What do you think about the Post Office’s performance?

354 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:06:07pm

re: #342 Big Steve

So why is medical insurance different than say every other thing. Just about everyone needs a computer these days. Why don’t we pay into a fund and let the government negotiate with Microsoft/Apple to get us better prices?

Because we don’t need computers to survive and stay healthy. That’s a luxury item. Many of us on the left think health care in the worlds richest nation should be a right not a luxury.

355 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:06:54pm

re: #354 recusancy

Because we don’t need computers to survive and stay healthy. That’s a luxury item. Many of us on the left think health care in the worlds richest nation should be a right not a luxury.

World’s richest nation? Have you checked our bank account lately?

356 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:16pm

re: #353 Floral Giraffe

hah, I have to commit first?!


Fine! I think its excellent!

357 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:17pm

re: #347 Gus 802

45% is a huge jump. Good thing you can afford it. What if you couldn’t? Or others that can’t.

Then I’d be without. I made it without for a few years but finally I decided to stop playing with fate and get some before something happens.

358 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:33pm
359 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:39pm

re: #343 Racer X

H. R. 3590

360 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:45pm

re: #339 BruceKelly

Good link, but it was about work-related car accidents. I don’t think that the great majority of Amercan auto accidents are work related.

Am I missing something?

That was just an application I grabbed. Here is the program they first brought into the accident world (a proper nightmare by current standards). It was developed for AIDS epidemiology IIRC. A good example for kid accidents is the SafeKids program out of one of the DC hospitals and C.Everrett Koop.

[Link: www.google.com…]

361 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:07:50pm

Another thought,
when/if our elected officials give up their government health care to join the “public option” or whatever it gets called, THEN I will think that the government plan is a good thing.

362 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:05pm

re: #342 Big Steve

You should check out the Public Library.

363 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:27pm

re: #352 BruceKelly

oh spare me.


See above re: the fetishization of the military.

364 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:29pm

re: #354 recusancy

Because we don’t need computers to survive and stay healthy. That’s a luxury item. Many of us on the left think health care in the worlds richest nation should be a right not a luxury.

We need food to stay alive and healthy. You want government to pay for that too. I think that has gone very badly every time it’s been implemented on the scale of an entire country.

365 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:29pm

re: #361 Floral Giraffe

Another thought,
when/if our elected officials give up their government health care to join the “public option” or whatever it gets called, THEN I will think that the government plan is a good thing.

It’s toast. Don’t worry about it.

366 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:35pm

re: #301 ArchangelMichael

And just how much foreign aid do we send to Europe? Let me tell you this. According to the US Agency for International Development, the total of US foreign aid for the entire world (combined military and economic) totalled just under $42 billion dollars. Aid for Europe was ONLY $2.3 billion. Can you say “drop in the bucket”?

367 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:08:38pm

re: #350 Racer X

I would be against that.

Government run health care I am now leaning towards it being a good idea. But not what is currently on the table.

Don’t get me wrong….there are problems with health care costs. But they stem from the lack of capitalism in the system. My brother is the head of a radiology firm that has the contract for a large hospital. In the 20 years he has been with them the hospital has never, not ever, rebid out the contract.

368 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:09:13pm

re: #351 ArchangelMichael

The only way a working plan will come about is if a couple of Congressmen and a couple of doctors get together, lock themselves in a room for a few months without any distractions or lobbyists and hammer out a plan. Then insist it gets an up or down vote as is, no pork, no amendments. Yes or no. If the rest of Congress gets their paws on it, it’s doomed to be a clusterfuck of extraordinary magnitude. The current atrocity in the Senate is case and point. Too many interests and egos. Too many cooks spoiling the broth.

Cage match! Two men enter, one man leaves!

369 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:09:55pm

re: #354 recusancy

Because we don’t need computers to survive and stay healthy. That’s a luxury item. Many of us on the left think health care in the worlds richest nation should be a right not a luxury.

I lean to the right (politically). I do not think quality health care is a ‘right’. I think it should be an option - if you qualify. I am not in favor of free health care for all. Because it really isn’t free.

370 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:05pm

re: #367 Big Steve

Don’t get me wrong…there are problems with health care costs. But they stem from the lack of capitalism in the system.

Solution to the AIDS crisis in Africa: Instead of the US spending billions to give them expensive lifesaving drugs for free, let’s just have all the African governments deregulate their insurance companies!

371 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:09pm

re: #361 Floral Giraffe

I’m guessing from this that you don’t like the post offices’ service >>

372 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:18pm

Compare MRI machine costs in Japan to the USA.

Compare prescription drugs costs in Canada to the USA.

And so on.

373 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:18pm

re: #364 ArchangelMichael

We need food to stay alive and healthy. You want government to pay for that too. I think that has gone very badly every time it’s been implemented on the scale of an entire country.

They do. Food has no sales tax and agriculture is one of the most heavily subsidized industries. You don’t honestly think we pay free market price for food do you?

374 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:19pm

re: #315 ArchangelMichael

Somehow I think the money we put into NATO is more to our benefit than theirs.

375 Big Steve  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:10:51pm

re: #354 recusancy

Because we don’t need computers to survive and stay healthy. That’s a luxury item. Many of us on the left think health care in the worlds richest nation should be a right not a luxury.

Ok….lets go with food them. Certainly needed for survival. Why don’t we all pay one flat tax rate and have the government provide us our dinner?

376 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:11:01pm

re: #369 Racer X

I lean to the right (politically). I do not think quality health care is a ‘right’. I think it should be an option - if you qualify. I am not in favor of free health care for all. Because it really isn’t free.

Access to health care is a right.

377 Jaerik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:11:10pm

re: #361 Floral Giraffe

Another thought,
when/if our elected officials give up their government health care to join the “public option” or whatever it gets called, THEN I will think that the government plan is a good thing.

They did.

As a joke, the Republicans bought their own talking point and offered an amendment requiring Congress to use the public option. To their surprise, Democrats fell over themselves to vote for it, some even offering to co-sponsor it.

The Republicans refused to let them, and are now trying to backpedal on the amendment.

378 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:11:17pm

re: #366 stevemcg

And just how much foreign aid do we send to Europe? Let me tell you this. According to the US Agency for International Development, the total of US foreign aid for the entire world (combined military and economic) totalled just under $42 billion dollars. Aid for Europe was ONLY $2.3 billion. Can you say “drop in the bucket”?

10% plus unemployed?… please pass the bucket.

379 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:11:28pm

re: #369 Racer X

I lean to the right (politically). I do not think quality health care is a ‘right’. I think it should be an option - if you qualify. I am not in favor of free health care for all. Because it really isn’t free.

I didn’t say free healthcare for all.

380 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:11:35pm

Allow competition, and allow people to sue, and the DA to prosecute, for denial of coverage. Re-evaluate. I’m certain that things will look better. Sorry if I go Ojoe on you jokers, but there is a lot of low-hanging fruit here.

381 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:12:02pm

re: #361 Floral Giraffe

Another thought,
when/if our elected officials give up their government health care to join the “public option” or whatever it gets called, THEN I will think that the government plan is a good thing.

There is not a snowballs chance in hell they are gong to give up their perks. Do as I say not as I do.

382 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:12:11pm

I keep hearing here about how I’m just falling into a liberal meme by saying that the insurance and pharmaceutical industries don’t actually have our interests at heart. I’m just attacking “big pharma” as portrayed by the evil anti-business liberals, etc, etc…

I’ve been pointedly rebuked by the argument that the insurance companies on average make only 2-3% net profit. Of course this completely ignores the fact that they are universally all publically held companies that pay out stock dividends and other liabilities ahead of that “net profit.”

The actual figure that the companies “eat” as overhead is over 23% of every dollar paid to them. Now multiply that buy the hundreds of companies, overall the numbers don’t look good. Less than 49 cents of every dollar spent on medical care in this country actually goes to pay for medical procedures. The other 51 cents goes to “administration costs” and profits of those other than the doctors.

Medicare/medicaid manages to survive with only about 3% overhead, almost 97 cents of every dollar actually goes to a doctor who performed some procedure. If you can’t see a problem with this I don’t know what else I can say to persuade you.

Medical care should not be reliant solely on private enterprise profit, nor should the entire country be facing bankruptcy by the continued double digit increase in rates every single year.

383 Jaerik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:12:49pm

re: #381 Lateralis

There is not a snowballs chance in hell they are gong to give up their perks. Do as I say not as I do.

See #377 above. They did.

384 recusancy  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:12:49pm

re: #375 Big Steve

Ok…lets go with food them. Certainly needed for survival. Why don’t we all pay one flat tax rate and have the government provide us our dinner?

See #373

385 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:12:58pm

re: #381 Lateralis

re: #377 Jaerik

They did.

As a joke, the Republicans bought their own talking point and offered an amendment requiring Congress to use the public option. To their surprise, Democrats fell over themselves to vote for it, some even offering to co-sponsor it.

The Republicans refused to let them, and are now trying to backpedal on the amendment.

lol.

386 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:13:47pm

re: #359 Killgore Trout

H. R. 3590

Thanks for the link.

First glance confirms my fears - this thing is about a hundred times more complicated than it needs to be.

387 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:14:29pm

re: #382 ausador

Err… Uhh… commie bin mao lover!!@

388 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:14:40pm

re: #382 ausador

I keep hearing here about how I’m just falling into a liberal meme by saying that the insurance and pharmaceutical industries don’t actually have our interests at heart. I’m just attacking “big pharma” as portrayed by the evil anti-business liberals, etc, etc…

I’ve been pointedly rebuked by the argument that the insurance companies on average make only 2-3% net profit. Of course this completely ignores the fact that they are universally all publically held companies that pay out stock dividends and other liabilities ahead of that “net profit.”

The actual figure that the companies “eat” as overhead is over 23% of every dollar paid to them. Now multiply that buy the hundreds of companies, overall the numbers don’t look good. Less than 49 cents of every dollar spent on medical care in this country actually goes to pay for medical procedures. The other 51 cents goes to “administration costs” and profits of those other than the doctors.

Medicare/medicaid manages to survive with only about 3% overhead, almost 97 cents of every dollar actually goes to a doctor who performed some procedure. If you can’t see a problem with this I don’t know what else I can say to persuade you.

Medical care should not be reliant solely on private enterprise profit, nor should the entire country be facing bankruptcy by the continued double digit increase in rates every single year.

Now, that information was informative and I for one shall refrain from accusing you of falling into a “liberal meme”.
:-)

389 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:15:09pm

re: #385 windsagio

re: #377 Jaerik

lol.

And you really think they were going to follow through.

390 Gus  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:15:11pm

re: #380 cliffster

Allow competition, and allow people to sue, and the DA to prosecute, for denial of coverage. Re-evaluate. I’m certain that things will look better. Sorry if I go Ojoe on you jokers, but there is a lot of low-hanging fruit here.

Jokers?

391 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:16:10pm

re: #390 Gus 802

Jokers?

Yes, jokers. It’s a term of endearment. It means I really like you. Well, maybe not YOU in particular, but yall ;)

392 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:16:14pm

re: #356 windsagio

SNIP
“Progress to improve delivery performance information has been slow and inadequate despite numerous USPS and mailer efforts. Some impediments to progress include USPS’s lack of continued management commitment and follow through on recommendations made by joint USPS/mailer committees, as well as technology limitations, data quality deficiencies, limited mailer participation in providing needed performance data, and costs. Although USPS has initiatives to improve service and better track mail through its mail processing system, USPS has no current plans to implement and report on additional representative measures of delivery performance.”

Link:
www.gao.gov/highlights/d06733high.pdf

393 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:17:21pm

re: #389 Lateralis

And you really think they were going to follow through.

Hah! Thats even funnier!

No matter what they do it won’t shake your faith that they’re hypocrites. Poor guys can’t win.

394 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:17:29pm

re: #382 ausador

I keep hearing here about how I’m just falling into a liberal meme by saying that the insurance and pharmaceutical industries don’t actually have our interests at heart. I’m just attacking “big pharma” as portrayed by the evil anti-business liberals, etc, etc…

I’ve been pointedly rebuked by the argument that the insurance companies on average make only 2-3% net profit. Of course this completely ignores the fact that they are universally all publically held companies that pay out stock dividends and other liabilities ahead of that “net profit.”

The actual figure that the companies “eat” as overhead is over 23% of every dollar paid to them. Now multiply that buy the hundreds of companies, overall the numbers don’t look good. Less than 49 cents of every dollar spent on medical care in this country actually goes to pay for medical procedures. The other 51 cents goes to “administration costs” and profits of those other than the doctors.

Medicare/medicaid manages to survive with only about 3% overhead, almost 97 cents of every dollar actually goes to a doctor who performed some procedure. If you can’t see a problem with this I don’t know what else I can say to persuade you.

Medical care should not be reliant solely on private enterprise profit, nor should the entire country be facing bankruptcy by the continued double digit increase in rates every single year.

My understanding is that pharmaceuticals account for 11% of medical spend. 4% of that is on branded products. Many companies have a generic utilization upwards of 70%.

395 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:17:53pm

re: #389 Lateralis

And you really think they were going to follow through.

sure why not… you don’t think they would actually have to wait on any lines do you? We have seen this before.

396 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:18:42pm

re: #392 Floral Giraffe

that doesn’t say its BAD, just that its hard to improve. However, I don’t really wanna argue whether the USPS does a good job. I just couldn’t figure out what *you* meant.

397 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:18:52pm

re: #393 windsagio

Hah! Thats even funnier!

No matter what they do it won’t shake your faith that they’re hypocrites. Poor guys can’t win.

Spare me, they are politicians. I have no faith in any of them from either party. Take a look at that bill and it is filled with pork spending buying off votes.

398 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:19:06pm

re: #392 Floral Giraffe

SNIP
“Progress to improve delivery performance information has been slow and inadequate despite numerous USPS and mailer efforts. Some impediments to progress include USPS’s lack of continued management commitment and follow through on recommendations made by joint USPS/mailer committees, as well as technology limitations, data quality deficiencies, limited mailer participation in providing needed performance data, and costs. Although USPS has initiatives to improve service and better track mail through its mail processing system, USPS has no current plans to implement and report on additional representative measures of delivery performance.”

Link:
www.gao.gov/highlights/d06733high.pdf

Our local post offices have this sign:
“Our Pledge to You! We will try to serve you within 5 minutes or less”.

Honestly - that’s not a pledge. A pledge is - we will serve you within 5 minutes or less. They put up a sign asserting that they will TRY, which essentially says they aren’t really responsible for living up to it.

399 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:19:28pm

Perhaps Copenhagen might make a little difference?

Climate Talks Near Deal on Preservation of Forests

400 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:20:34pm

re: #378 brookly red

What on Earth is that supposed to mean? You’re the one that said pulling $2 billion from Europe will put them in bankruptcy. The GDP of the European Union in 2008 was over $18,000,000,000,000. That is 9,000 times the total of our aid. Therefore, pulling our aid will scratch their economy by 0.002%. Here’s your bucket back.

401 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:20:57pm

re: #397 Lateralis

So cynical :(

402 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:21:15pm

wow, its like the 20th century never happened.
The state has a strong central role in ones personal and business life. Where can it go wrong?

403 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:22:24pm

re: #396 windsagio

Did you look at the link? This is criticism from the Government Accounting Office. I just posted the first paragraph.

404 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:14pm

re: #402 iheartbolton

wow, its like the 20th century never happened.

Yeah- it’s exactly like that! [eye roll]

405 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:17pm

re: #398 reine.de.tout

Our local post offices have this sign:
“Our Pledge to You! We will try to serve you within 5 minutes or less”.

Honestly - that’s not a pledge. A pledge is - we will serve you within 5 minutes or less. They put up a sign asserting that they will TRY, which essentially says they aren’t really responsible for living up to it.

I prefer the lying-to-my-face the private industry has mastered ;)

406 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:18pm

re: #402 iheartbolton

wow, its like the 20th century never happened.
The state has a strong central role in ones personal and business life. Where can it go wrong?

When and where did a nation state not have such a role? Start with conscription.

407 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:36pm

re: #400 stevemcg

not to mention it doesn’t mention what european nations the aid is going to. It might hurt Bosnia if we cut our aid (or Greece, I think they get some) but the major economies of the continent wouldn’t even notice.


re: #403 Floral Giraffe

I admit I didn’t. I’d gotten what I wanted out of the question (namely your position on it), and don’t really care beyond that.

408 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:46pm

re: #376 Gus 802

Access to health care is a right.

I’d say that it is a highly desirable social good, rather than a right. Rights, such as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, don’t require billions of other people’s dollars to secure.

409 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:23:52pm

re: #376 Gus 802

Access to health care is a right.

Hate to disagree, but our rights are rights to actions, not services.

410 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:24:16pm

re: #400 stevemcg

What on Earth is that supposed to mean? You’re the one that said pulling $2 billion from Europe will put them in bankruptcy. The GDP of the European Union in 2008 was over $18,000,000,000,000. That is 9,000 times the total of our aid. Therefore, pulling our aid will scratch their economy by 0.002%. Here’s your bucket back.

where did I say that? f’ Europe I said we have 10% plus unemployed right here why are we giving one freakin dime to Europe?

411 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:24:24pm

The Lives of Others
execllent

412 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:25:12pm

re: #407 windsagio

Out of memory, most of it went to Russia, some to Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Albania, and there was one other I forget.

413 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:25:28pm

re: #409 BruceKelly

Hate to disagree, but our rights are rights to actions, not services.

Right to access means the government cannot deny your ability to seek it.

414 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:25:31pm

re: #410 brookly red

well, by your logic, why are we giving money to anyone?

I bet we could save a ton of money by cutting all aid to Israel, Taiwan, and South Korea!

//

415 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:26:11pm

What is it about health care that makes people think that Washington is going to be so good at running it? Or, if you think that Washington is just good at running stuff, then why isn’t it running everything? Or, if you think it should be running everything, then let’s just ask the USSR how they handle things. Oh wait.

416 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:26:33pm

re: #363 windsagio

oh spare me.

okay

417 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:27:00pm

re: #413 ArchangelMichael

Right to access means the government cannot deny your ability to seek it.

It will be interesting to see if the Government forces us to buy health insurance if it will hold up constitutionally.

418 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:27:23pm

re: #406 Decatur Deb

thats up there on violation of rights

419 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:27:31pm

re: #416 BruceKelly

okay

Up ding!

420 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:17pm

re: #410 brookly red

Well, first you said Europe would go broke and then your switching to the US unemployment rate was kind of a non-sequitor. So that $2 billion would cut the unemployment rate to what? 9.99%?

421 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:27pm

re: #415 cliffster

The USSR?

More lets ask Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway how they’re doing with it.

Anyways. The real problem is that the current system is so bad that we have to make some moves away from it before it collapses. When we look at other successful states and see that government run programs work, we think ‘hmm, their conditions sure are better than ours!’ and consider adopting their systems.

422 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:27pm

re: #414 windsagio

well, by your logic, why are we giving money to anyone?

I bet we could save a ton of money by cutting all aid to Israel, Taiwan, and South Korea!

//

sure, I am OK with that…

423 Jaerik  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:39pm

re: #389 Lateralis

And you really think they were going to follow through.

…they did. Co-sponsor is complete and votes were in. Democratic Senators Franken, Dodd, and Mikulski also co-sponsored it. It’ll be in the final bill.

Don’t let that interrupt your cynical, unfocused rant about politicians, though. You’re on a roll.

424 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:48pm

re: #415 cliffster

What is it about health care that makes people think that Washington is going to be so good at running it? Or, if you think that Washington is just good at running stuff, then why isn’t it running everything? Or, if you think it should be running everything, then let’s just ask the USSR how they handle things. Oh wait.

I’m reading through the current health care bill. This thing is a cluster-fuck if I ever saw one.

And I’m for government run health care.

425 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:28:56pm

re: #418 iheartbolton

thats up there on violation of rights

Many of my generation thought so. Most are back from Canada.

426 ulmsey123  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:29:17pm

Coulda woulda shoulda. Maybe. Might. We project. We think. We know. How dare you argue with our thoughts!

427 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:29:19pm

re: #414 windsagio

well, by your logic, why are we giving money to anyone?

I bet we could save a ton of money by cutting all aid to Israel, Taiwan, and South Korea!

//

A hospital closed down in my area. A few days later I saw a news story about a state-of-the-art hospital the US built for Iraq. Hooray~

428 Pacificlady  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:29:20pm

#382 ausador

Where did you get the data that states that Medicare/Medicaid has a 3% overhead? I worked for Medicaid for 15 years, I question that percentage.

429 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:29:56pm

re: #422 brookly red

I have to compliment you. You have beaten Sarah Palin in the long term thinking contest by 10 minutes.

430 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:30:09pm

re: #423 Jaerik

…they did. Co-sponsor is complete and votes were in. Democratic Senators Franken, Dodd, and Mikulski also co-sponsored it. It’ll be in the final bill.

Don’t let that interrupt your cynical, unfocused rant about politicians, though. You’re on a roll.

It was a short rant and very focused on politicians…and I will believe it when I see it.

431 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:30:50pm

re: #420 stevemcg

Well, first you said Europe would go broke and then your switching to the US unemployment rate was kind of a non-sequitor. So that $2 billion would cut the unemployment rate to what? 9.99%?

please cut & paste where I said europe would go broke, for that matter please cut and paste where I said I even liked europe.

432 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:32:13pm

re: #301 ArchangelMichael

Take all foreign aid from the US to Europe away, and place bets on how long before they are teetering on bankruptcy or making serious changes to the way they do things.

M’ok?

433 windsagio  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:32:29pm

re: #431 brookly red

so selfish! Also so short-sighted! Also so angry!

well anyways, I’m starting to get whiplash from keeping up with this thread, so I’m gonna bow out, y’all have a good night :)

434 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:32:31pm

re: #424 Racer X

I’m reading through the current health care bill. This thing is a cluster-fuck if I ever saw one.

And I’m for government run health care.

You are for a myth. What you see is what government run health care is. It’s not like, well, this is bad, but if they just go back behind closed doors again, then they’ll come back with something that kicks a**. The reason you hate this, is the reason why you should be against government run health care.

435 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:32:31pm

re: #431 brookly red

please cut & paste where I said europe would go broke, for that matter please cut and paste where I said I even liked europe.

I went back through and couldn’t find that you had mentioned Europe at all.
Did you?

436 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:33:01pm

UNPOST, UNPOST, UNPOST!!!

437 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:33:43pm

re: #429 stevemcg

I have to compliment you. You have beaten Sarah Palin in the long term thinking contest by 10 minutes.

there is Gaze, & there is Gaze, asshole. have a nice day.

438 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:33:44pm

re: #353 Floral Giraffe

What do you think about the Post Office’s performance?

I have never had a package lost by the post office. I’ve had letters get a little messed up, but they still arrived. I once sent a letter to a friend of mine when I was in high school with most of the address obscured, it still got to him. As a joke, my partner once sent a ziplock bag filled with yogurt in a plain letter envelope to me through the mail. it arrived intact.

I have had packages mangled or lost by UPS, fed-Ex Ground, and DHL.

So yeah, I’m all right with the Post office. I’m also pretty happy with my local DMV. I got in and out of my DMV with my new license, photo taken, card printed out, in hand, in under 10 minutes. I got my emissions test and my tabs in about 5 minutes,, including the actual time they spent hooking up their diag equipment to the obd port in my Volvo and waiting for the printer to spit out the results.

439 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:34:10pm

re: #431 brookly red

please cut & paste where I said europe would go broke, for that matter please cut and paste where I said I even liked europe.

brookly is right. It was archangel who mentioned the Europe going broke thing.

And I completely agree with you brook. We got 10% unemployment, why we building infrastructure and giving free drugs to foreign nations.

440 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:34:45pm

re: #415 cliffster

What is it about health care that makes people think that Washington is going to be so good at running it? Or, if you think that Washington is just good at running stuff, then why isn’t it running everything? Or, if you think it should be running everything, then let’s just ask the USSR how they handle things. Oh wait.

So everyone with a government health care mandate or socialized health care is the former Soviet Union now?

441 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:34:53pm

What else can I say, I had responded to somebody else and didn’t notice the new screen name. Please accept my apologgggiohjiu… my apologgghjhaklhiuhi. Shit, sorry about that.

442 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:35:02pm

re: #437 brookly red

there is Gaze, & there is Gaze, asshole. have a nice day.

And then there is stevemcg… who defies description.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:35:11pm

re: #231 The Sanity Inspector

So long as the patients have the U.S. as an escape hatch, sure.

To be fair, from what I’ve read things are less dire in continental Europe. Except for Dutch doctors euthanizing their patients too pro-actively, sometimes.

I never had any problems in Britain. Have to say.

444 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:35:46pm

re: #413 ArchangelMichael

Right to access means the government cannot deny your ability to seek it.

Point taken.

445 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:35:47pm

re: #440 WindUpBird

So everyone with a government health care mandate or socialized health care is the former Soviet Union now?

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

446 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:36:02pm

re: #441 stevemcg

What else can I say, I had responded to somebody else and didn’t notice the new screen name. Please accept my apologggiohjiu… my apologgghjhaklhiuhi. Shit, sorry about that.

Having a bit of trouble spitting out that “apology” word, eh?

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:36:26pm

re: #237 rwdflynavy

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
“A mentally ill, suicidal teenager was ferried around for hours by an ambulance crew because no NHS [National Health Service] unit would accept her,” reports the BBC:

[A paramedic] wrote that the first hospital they took her to, believed to be the main psychiatric hospital in Ipswich, St Clements, “declined to accept the patient as she was a juvenile” so the ambulance was diverted to the local juvenile psychiatry facility.

They were unable to accept the patient as the staff were on an “away day”, the memo reports. It is understood this facility would not have been the agreed “place of safety” for such a patient anyway.

The receptionist suggested they contact someone from the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service nearby.

When the crew got there, they were told the patient could not be accepted.

Another unit was suggested, but this would not be open until four days later.

The patient was then taken to A&E at Ipswich Hospital, but the crew was again told the patient could not be accepted there because she had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

The paramedic said: “As there was no alternative available, we had to convey the patient to the police cells as a place of safety. This was the wrong environment for this sick and vulnerable child.”

A Suffolk Police custody log confirmed the girl was kept in the cells for six hours between 1700 GMT and 2300 GMT.

None of this would have happened if the paramedics had listened to former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

Do you seriously think we never lose anyone like this in the States? Or just have them die in the waiting room?

448 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:36:42pm

re: #445 cliffster

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

I don’t. Next question.

449 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:36:46pm

re: #441 stevemcg

The buttons “Reply”, “Quote”, and “Preview” are your friends.

450 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:05pm

re: #439 Basho

brookly is right. It was archangel who mentioned the Europe going broke thing.

And I completely agree with you brook. We got 10% unemployment, why we building infrastructure and giving free drugs to foreign nations.

& for the record we usually don’t get along, but some things are just no-brainers. Salute!

451 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:07pm

re: #446 reine.de.tout

It ain’t easy being a know it all.

452 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:11pm

re: #382 ausador

The actual figure that the companies “eat” as overhead is over 23% of every dollar paid to them. Now multiply that buy the hundreds of companies, overall the numbers don’t look good. Less than 49 cents of every dollar spent on medical care in this country actually goes to pay for medical procedures. The other 51 cents goes to “administration costs” and profits of those other than the doctors.

Medicare/medicaid manages to survive with only about 3% overhead, almost 97 cents of every dollar actually goes to a doctor who performed some procedure.
If you can’t see a problem with this I don’t know what else I can say to persuade you.

Medical care should not be reliant solely on private enterprise profit, nor should the entire country be facing bankruptcy by the continued double digit increase in rates every single year.

The meme is, waste is only waste when it’s government. Private industry is apparently allowed to waste all it wants!

Bolded for sanity :D

453 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:14pm

re: #440 WindUpBird

So everyone with a government health care mandate or socialized health care is the former Soviet Union now?

Well, to Republicans it’s not JUST health care, but evolution, AGW, birth control, well much of the modern world, that is the Soviet Union…

454 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:40pm

re: #438 WindUpBird

Price of a stamp versus price of gasoline…
[Link: mjperry.blogspot.com…]

455 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:37:57pm

re: #445 cliffster

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

Absolutely.

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as our armed forces effectively?

456 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:38:45pm

re: #449 Racer X

I would have run through a Stop sign in front of a red light behind the Big Stick’s arresting gear.

457 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:38:47pm

re: #442 Walter L. Newton

And then there is stevemcg… who defies description.

asshole fits, no? really I value you opinion… not asshole?

458 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:38:49pm

re: #445 cliffster

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

Not entirely, but I think it is not beyond reason for a new government agency to run the insurance aspect of it. Leave the current medical facilities intact. It is the insurance companies that need to be replaced, for the most part.

459 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:39:13pm

re: #455 WindUpBird

Absolutely.

Ok then, why doesn’t Washington run everything?

460 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:39:31pm

re: #451 stevemcg

It ain’t easy being a know it all.

LOL.
there’s a preview button.
Once you post something, it’s there forever (or until Charles deletes it. If you want something of yours deleted, use the “report” button - the exclamation point - on that post).

461 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #455 WindUpBird

Absolutely.

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as our armed forces effectively?

They can not and one place you can look is the level of Medicare fraud that goes on.

462 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:40:14pm

re: #459 cliffster

Ok then, why doesn’t Washington run everything?

They would like to…..

463 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:40:34pm

re: #458 Racer X

Not entirely, but I think it is not beyond reason for a new government agency to run the insurance aspect of it. Leave the current medical facilities intact. It is the insurance companies that need to be replaced deprived of their existing (government-enabled) ability to skirt legal treatment, for the most part.

Fixed.

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:40:34pm

re: #259 Basho

Canadians live almost 3 years longer on average, fwiw.

Yes, but they have to spend those years in Canada.

//

465 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:40:47pm

re: #454 Floral Giraffe

Price of a stamp versus price of gasoline…
[Link: mjperry.blogspot.com…]

Okay, a price of a stamp went up. So what? I happily pay it, I don’t send that many letters. You’re changing the subject. What about the price of shipping? I think it’s a deal, how cheaply I can get priority shipping, and I send out a lot of packages because of my freelance gigs. I am at the post office quite a bit.

You want a bad post office? Go to Italy. Our post office is the best in the world, as much as it may pain you to admit it.

466 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:41:42pm

re: #460 reine.de.tout

No point in that. I’ll just have to face the music. BTW wouldn’t it be neat if we all just moved over to that really neat John Mayer thread? Please?

467 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:41:47pm

re: #454 Floral Giraffe

Price of a stamp versus price of gasoline…
[Link: mjperry.blogspot.com…]

It’s a pretty chart, but it ignores that the funding basis of USPS has been radically altered, at least once, by law. They are required to become more “profitable’” than previously.

468 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:41:51pm

re: #457 brookly red

asshole fits, no? really I value you opinion… not asshole?

I’m not sure yet… it seems to work like an asshole, but then at the same time, it occasionally makes clever remarks, I’m not sure… I monitor and let you know if IT get out of hand and deserves a slap down… ok?

469 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:41:57pm

re: #353 Floral Giraffe

What do you think about the Post Office’s performance?

I’m satisfied, when I remind myself to remember the mostly good service along with the occasionally bad.

Weirdest post office experience I ever had was when I received what looked like a financial statement. The house number was mine, but the street was not. Nor was the city. Nor the state. I scribbled “misdelivered” on it, and popped it back in the mailbox. A couple of days later, it came back. I scribbled “twice!” underneath my original annotation, stuffed it back in, and never saw it again. Don’t know if it ever got to its rightful recipient.

470 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:42:44pm

re: #459 cliffster

Ok then, why doesn’t Washington run everything?

You’re not interested in a discussion about why health care shouldn’t be tied to massive private industry waste and profit motive, I can tell. You want to play right-wing bumper sticker bingo, and I’m just not in the mood. Besides, other people above me have already said it better.

471 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:43:02pm

re: #459 cliffster

Ok then, why doesn’t Washington run everything?

They can’t supply us with things that require subjective taste. TV shows, cars, (was gonna say houses but the government has been giving those away recently), computers, etc.

They basically fund everything else though. Schools, science, roads, bridges, police, etc..

472 Racer X  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:43:03pm

You know, the more I think about it, health care is broken. So is our political system. Politicians line their pockets with graft. They insert pet projects into bills. They spend money we absolutely do not have.

Hmmmm.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:43:14pm

re: #288 jayzee

I know. I saw that. I wasn’t implying you did. Just sharing my thoughts on it.

On another note- Good night all, thanks for helping me take my mind off dad’s yahrtzeit for a bit.

Zichrono l’vracha.

474 Four More Tears  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:43:20pm

re: #465 WindUpBird

I am at the post office quite a bit.

Feh. Get a scale, print your labels and make them schlep!

475 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:44:05pm

re: #472 Racer X

You know, the more I think about it, health care is broken. So is our political system. Politicians line their pockets with graft. They insert pet projects into bills. They spend money we absolutely do not have.

Hmmm.

Sounds like the worst possible time to approach this issue then doesn’t it?

476 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:45:08pm

re: #470 WindUpBird

You’re not interested in a discussion about why health care shouldn’t be tied to massive private industry waste and profit motive, I can tell. You want to play right-wing bumper sticker bingo, and I’m just not in the mood. Besides, other people above me have already said it better.

Right. People disagree with you and they are crazy right-wing nuts. Good that you have a go-to response.

477 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:45:28pm

re: #468 Walter L. Newton

I’m not sure yet… it seems to work like an asshole, but then at the same time, it occasionally makes clever remarks, I’m not sure… I monitor and let you know if IT get out of hand and deserves a slap down… ok?

wait… that’s what you said about me…

478 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:45:37pm

re: #461 Lateralis

They can not and one place you can look is the level of Medicare fraud that goes on.

Links please. Show me where medicare fraud eclipses private health care industry waste.

You cannot, because it does not. Stow the bumper sticker playbook, give me some evidence if you’re going to make such assertions.

479 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:46:20pm

re: #451 stevemcg

It ain’t easy being a know it all.

…and it’s especially hard dealing with know-it-alls when you really do.

:)

480 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:47:07pm

re: #474 JasonA

Feh. Get a scale, print your labels and make them schlep!

I’m often working from places that are not home, those scales and printers aren’t that portable. Easier to just go to the local USPS branch.

481 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:48:21pm

re: #445 cliffster

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

American attitudes may just be fundamentally different from European attitudes, and thus affect the likelihood of success. Despite their multiple blood purges at the hands of dictators over the years, Europeans seem to simply trust big government more than Americans do.

482 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:49:12pm

re: #470 WindUpBird

You’re not interested in a discussion about why health care shouldn’t be tied to massive private industry waste and profit motive, I can tell. You want to play right-wing bumper sticker bingo, and I’m just not in the mood. Besides, other people above me have already said it better.

Private industry waste. What is that exactly. Private industry focus is to make as much profit as they can. How they spend it is their business. If they are not profitable they go out of business. Government health care such as Medicare when it is not breaking even it cuts reimbursement rates to physicians which then get shifted to patients that have private insurance that will pay the higher fees to make up the difference.

483 BruceKelly  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:49:15pm

re: #466 stevemcg

No point in that. I’ll just have to face the music. BTW wouldn’t it be neat if we all just moved over to that really neat John Mayer thread? Please?

Agreed. It’s hot in here.

484 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:49:23pm

re: #476 cliffster

Right. People disagree with you and they are crazy right-wing nuts. Good that you have a go-to response.

You’re not crazy, you just want to speak in yuk yuk catch phrases as opposed to wanting to discuss the issue. I already linked to a guy who said it better than me, I boldfaced the bits about massive private industry waste.

Catch phrases are for children, football commentators, and politicians on the campaign trail. I’m none of these things.

485 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:50:06pm

re: #478 WindUpBird

I’m not sure either can really be quantified. But if I were trying I would look at durable medical equipment. Medicare has a really funny sounding refusal called a “medically unlikely edit” for some procedures. My wife isn’t into the DME stuff, (where I would think that applies), but she says you could make a real killing there if you wanted. In fact, the guys she knows who are into it are sleazy enough that she wants no part of it.

486 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:50:12pm

re: #482 Lateralis

Private industry waste. What is that exactly. Private industry focus is to make as much profit as they can. How they spend it is their business. If they are not profitable they go out of business. Government health care such as Medicare when it is not breaking even it cuts reimbursement rates to physicians which then get shifted to patients that have private insurance that will pay the higher fees to make up the difference.

Ausador’s post. Number #382. Please read it.

487 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:50:19pm

re: #445 cliffster

Do you think Washington can run a system as complicated as health care effectively?

I don’t trust the government much, but I trust the government a whole lot more than I trust a greed driven insurance company. YMMV.

488 brookly red  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:51:12pm

re: #481 The Sanity Inspector

American attitudes may just be fundamentally different from European attitudes, and thus affect the likelihood of success. Despite their multiple blood purges at the hands of dictators over the years, Europeans seem to simply trust big government more than Americans do.

something about learning from history, or repeating it, or something like that…

489 Jack Burton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:51:20pm

re: #481 The Sanity Inspector

They don’t really know any other way. They went from warlords to feudalism to absolute monarchs to authoritarian dictators to socialism. Social liberalism wanes and waxes, but they’ve always had big government.

490 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:51:20pm

re: #481 The Sanity Inspector

Because Europeans simply trust big government, they end up with multiple blood purges.

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:51:38pm

re: #353 Floral Giraffe

What do you think about the Post Office’s performance?

I have to say, they deliver my mail daily, and take the stuff I put in the mail where it needs to go. I have no real problems with the USPS.

492 stevemcg  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:51:46pm

re: #487 wlewisiii

“YMMV”? I get the Yo momma part, but I lost you after that.

493 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:52:14pm

re: #488 brookly red

something about learning from history, or repeating it, or something like that…

hey, all of Europe is the same! Y’all look alike to me!

Do you actually believe that?

494 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:52:16pm

re: #484 WindUpBird

You’re not crazy, you just want to speak in yuk yuk catch phrases as opposed to wanting to discuss the issue. I already linked to a guy who said it better than me, I boldfaced the bits about massive private industry waste.

You understand that you have a kneejerk reaction to become insulting when people disagree with you? Sometimes very insulting, sometimes just sarcastically condescending. But always insulting. You should look over your posts.

495 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:52:42pm

re: #361 Floral Giraffe

Another thought,
when/if our elected officials give up their government health care to join the “public option” or whatever it gets called, THEN I will think that the government plan is a good thing.

I’m dubious there will be a public option, so, er, OK.

496 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:52:56pm

re: #493 WindUpBird

its not racial, its the ideas

497 Basho  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:55:39pm

re: #491 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to say, they deliver my mail daily, and take the stuff I put in the mail where it needs to go. I have no real problems with the USPS.

Yes but.. do they cancel your service because of a preexisting condition you didn’t know about? Free market anarchy FTW!~

498 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:57:47pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout
I care. I care a lot.

HIYA TOOTS!

499 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #486 WindUpBird

Ausador’s post. Number #382. Please read it.

Read it and did not change my mind. They are private companies and they operate is their business. If you want to bring down those margins then open up competition and they will have to become leaner. I have always been skeptical of the 3% number thrown around about Medicare overhead because of the level of waste and fraud that is in the Medicare system and it is beside the point because it is not an efficient system and if it was not for private health insurance it would have been changed a long time ago.

500 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:00:19pm

re: #494 cliffster

You understand that you have a kneejerk reaction to become insulting when people disagree with you? Sometimes very insulting, sometimes just sarcastically condescending. But always insulting. You should look over your posts.

No. I have a knee-jerk reaction to people who insult my intelligence with bumper sticker playbook wisdom. Plenty of people have disagreed with me here and I have been very polite to them, because they are reasoned, explain their position in detail, and don’t resort to cheap gotchas. Plenty of people have tossed gotcha phrasebook crap at me, called me a troll, linked to baseless fake science, snark about Obama, snark abotu Al Gore, snark about Carter, snark about Pelosi, snark about big government, and then they get cry foul when i dismiss them.

Instead of the “YOU WANT TEH GOVZORMENT TO RUN EVERYTHANG” line, maybe you should actually explain to me how you think the health care system in this country should work, how we fix massively rising health care costs, how we combat recission by private insurance, how we stop people who are rape victims from ebing dropped by insurance. How we stop kids with cancer from being dropped by insurance. All these things, that are actually happening. All these problems! And your answer is one sentence. I don’t ACTUALLy believe the only solution is a government based system, I think it’s one solution. You would have known that earlier, if you didn’t go all reducto ad absurdum on me.

Wow, it’s really surprising that I don’t respond well to that!

Oh, and I’d like some evidence that medicare is a failure. Not snark, not bumper stickers, real evidence. From where I stand as someone who has worked in htalth care with medicare recipients, I think it’s a roaring success. Republicans oppose expanding medicare, I notice they won’t dare touch the issue of abolishing medicare.

501 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:01:09pm

re: #496 iheartbolton

its not racial, its the ideas

All of continental europe has the same ideas about everything? have you even been to Europe?

I’d laugh at you, but I just don’t have the energy.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:02:19pm

re: #465 WindUpBird

Okay, a price of a stamp went up. So what? I happily pay it, I don’t send that many letters. You’re changing the subject. What about the price of shipping? I think it’s a deal, how cheaply I can get priority shipping, and I send out a lot of packages because of my freelance gigs. I am at the post office quite a bit.

You want a bad post office? Go to Italy. Our post office is the best in the world, as much as it may pain you to admit it.

Once when I was in Ireland, the Post Office went on strike. I almost lost my mind.

503 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:02:51pm

re: #472 Racer X

You know, the more I think about it, health care is broken. So is our political system. Politicians line their pockets with graft. They insert pet projects into bills. They spend money we absolutely do not have.

Hmmm.

Not to worry. They’ll be safely out of office once the bill comes due.

504 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:03:40pm

re: #480 WindUpBird

USPS dot com gives discounts for printing your own postage.
Beats the heck out of parking & standing in line at the PO.
I’m not saying the Post Office is bad, just that UPS & FedEx (ever tracked a FedEx package?) do it better.

505 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:03:42pm

re: #499 Lateralis

Read it and did not change my mind. They are private companies and they operate is their business. If you want to bring down those margins then open up competition and they will have to become leaner. I have always been skeptical of the 3% number thrown around about Medicare overhead because of the level of waste and fraud that is in the Medicare system and it is beside the point because it is not an efficient system and if it was not for private health insurance it would have been changed a long time ago.

So one easy standard (or no standard at all) for private insurance with no oversight, and a completely impossible standard for Medicare. That makes perfect sense.

And why am I not surprised that you have no evidence, no links, no nothing of this purported massive apocalyptic fraud. Just a bunch of arglebargle that I’m supposed to take on faith!

I’m done with you. Peace be with you on your journey.

506 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:05:24pm

re: #492 stevemcg

“YMMV”? I get the Yo momma part, but I lost you after that.

Your Mileage May Vary.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:05:43pm

re: #504 Floral Giraffe

USPS dot com gives discounts for printing your own postage.
Beats the heck out of parking & standing in line at the PO.
I’m not saying the Post Office is bad, just that UPS & FedEx (ever tracked a FedEx package?) do it better.

I don’t know. I’ve had a lot of frustration with UPS over the years. Never with USPS.

FedEx is a good company.

508 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:07:27pm

re: #504 Floral Giraffe

USPS dot com gives discounts for printing your own postage.
Beats the heck out of parking & standing in line at the PO.
I’m not saying the Post Office is bad, just that UPS & FedEx (ever tracked a FedEx package?) do it better.

FedEx Air is good, and very expensive. Fedex ground is cheap, and shitty, it used to be RPS before FedEx bought them out (pretty sure about that) UPS is iffy, I’ve had stuff show up destroyed by UPS. I’ve used UPS for very large and odd-shaped projects, because the UPS store will package it for me, but I still worry. I’ve still had the best luck with USPS when it comes to the intersection of cheap and trustworthy.

509 cliffster  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:07:42pm

A lot of seemingly complex problems are simplified by relatively low-level abstractions. But some people’s brains can’t handle abstractions. Too bad.

510 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:08:26pm

General statement of policy: I am opting out of these health-care discussions unless someone actually has evidence of something that’s really in a bill, and will be examined by Congress that they wish to discuss. I can’t do any more of these conversation where we debate going on a universal government-run health plan, as though something like that is actually in the offing.

Thank you. That is all.

511 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:08:52pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

Once when I was in Ireland, the Post Office went on strike. I almost lost my mind.

My boss for one of my projects works from Italy some of the time, and San Francisco some of the time. Instea dof mailing stuff using Italy’s post office, he literally fed-exes his mail from Italy to a friend in SF, who then drops the mail in the mailbox.

512 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:09:35pm

re: #510 SanFranciscoZionist

I should probably join you in this endeavor. But my health care worker dander gets up and whoa nelly. ;-)

513 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:10:26pm

re: #509 cliffster

A lot of seemingly complex problems are simplified by relatively low-level abstractions. But some people’s brains can’t handle abstractions. Too bad.

Your “abstractions” are meaningless slogans. Too bad, indeed.

514 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:11:13pm

re: #505 WindUpBird

So one easy standard (or no standard at all) for private insurance with no oversight, and a completely impossible standard for Medicare. That makes perfect sense.

And why am I not surprised that you have no evidence, no links, no nothing of this purported massive apocalyptic fraud. Just a bunch of arglebargle that I’m supposed to take on faith!

I’m done with you. Peace be with you on your journey.

I did not say there should not be oversight of private insurance. There should be and there are problems with the system that need fixed but a single payer system is not going to improve our healthcare. If you want links for Medicare fraud, google it and I am sure you will find plenty. In addition, it is President Obama has also indicated that there is waste in the system.

I am assuming Medicare patients get there services but that is not my point. The government is cost shifting to provide those services. Why is that most physician offices limit or do not take Medicare patients?

515 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:11:19pm

re: #512 WindUpBird

I should probably join you in this endeavor. But my health care worker dander gets up and whoa nelly. ;-)

God bless. I just can’t do it any more. At some point I realize that we’re having the same conversation again, and that it has nothing to do with the actual proposed health bill, and I get dizzy.

516 iheartbolton  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:17:26pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

unfortunately only 31 countries and counting. Europe, sure, was born there. Lived for a year in HK too.
how about you? You visit 4 European cities in 3 days?

517 windhorse  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:17:31pm

re: #504 Floral Giraffe

Didn’t President Obama have something poignant to say on this subject?

518 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:27:32pm

re: #428 Pacificlady

#382 ausador

Where did you get the data that states that Medicare/Medicaid has a 3% overhead? I worked for Medicaid for 15 years, I question that percentage.

From the GAO over the last twenty years, the percentage varies a bit year to year but has never even come close to four percent of total expenditures in any year. It is a simple equation, total amount paid out over the year versus the cost of running the agency. This isn’t rocket science, there is nothing complicated about it at all.

519 ryannon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:31:12pm

re: #100 Irenicum

It is strange to live in a time such as this, with the great progress we’ve made technologically, and yet how we’ve also set ourselves up for catastrophe.

Carl Gustave Jung has some excellent insights into this paradox.

520 Lateralis  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:32:50pm

re: #518 ausador

From the GAO over the last twenty years, the percentage varies a bit year to year but has never even come close to four percent of total expenditures in any year. It is a simple equation, total amount paid out over the year versus the cost of running the agency. This isn’t rocket science, there is nothing complicated about it at all.

I think that it is a meaningless number because of the cost shifting involved in providing services to Medicare patients. Medicare sets their rates and the docs have to deal with it by charging more to other patients.

521 ryannon  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:40:31pm

re: #111 windsagio

Its the nature of life (not just mankind, either). There are plenty of examples of lifeforms being somewhat maladapted and destroying their environment along with themselves. We just have the fortune (mistfortune) to be aware of it, and a chance to mitigate/fix it rationally.

Yep. Just like we mitigated all the geo-political catastrophes of the 20th Century. A real success story.

The 21st is going to be a repeat performance, along with the unwinding of entire ecosystems as a new element in the mix.

And no, I’m not terribly optimistic about the outcome - and even less so concerning our ability to change it.

But once again, it’s important to try.

522 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:42:13pm

re: #517 windhorse

Didn’t President Obama have something poignant to say on this subject?

I don’t know, did he?
Link?

523 tradewind  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 7:46:31pm

This mistake is soo…. Al Gore….
[Link: www.todaystmj4.com…]

524 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:02:01pm

re: #520 Lateralis

I think that it is a meaningless number because of the cost shifting involved in providing services to Medicare patients. Medicare sets their rates and the docs have to deal with it by charging more to other patients.

Uhh, way to shift the goal posts, or should I say point to another set of goal posts in a completely different stadium, wtf? We were discussing how much overhead medicare/caid had as a percentage of what they spent. I have no idea how whatever it is you are talking about fits into that conversation, but thanks for the completely non-sequitur input on a completely different subject as if you were actually adressing the issue being discussed. (NOT)

525 Bagua  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:05:55pm

Somethings to consider in the health care debate:

When considering overall life expectancy and comparing two countries, there are variables such as genetics and life style differences that must be factored in. Longer life expectancy can be much more a question of that persons genetic make-up and lifestyle choices.

Americans in particular tend to have more risk factors for and prevalence of diseases such as diabetes and heart disease because of being more likely to be overweight or obese, and also have a much wider genetic variation than Britain or European countries.

A better caparison is between survival rates for specific diseases, but even with this there is a strong genetic influence and often being overweight can make for a worse prognosis.

Lastly, some variations are difficult to measure, for example, my friend on a six month NHS waiting-list for surgery for multiple abdominal prolapses had to wait another 8 months when a different problem needed surgery. Either way he will likely have the same life expectancy as this condition is not fatal, but the discomfort of having to live with this for any extra year or more is a factor to consider.

526 Kewalo  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:15:07pm

re: #382 ausador

Bravo! You are exactly right.

527 Kewalo  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:42:13pm

re: #512 WindUpBird

You’ve been doing a masterful job, and deserve a good pat on the back. This subject gets my dander up too and I can really go through the overhead if that damn drug bill comes up. What a disgrace that bill was, it makes me sick to think about it.

528 ckb  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

That is what is not true.

Just for the record:

My first post in this thread, #40, was not written by me. It was quoted directly from the caption of the poster of Barrow. It was downdinged numerous times.

In #55, I posted “The ice shown in that 2006 picture melts every year. Its thickness is irrelevant.” Again downdinged numerous times. The thickness of ice that melts each year, regardless of all other factors, is not relevant to any discussion of the melting of the caps. The top left corner of the picture posted is about two miles from the coast of Barrow according to the scale of the map. It melts every summer.

I backed up this fact with a Wikipedia quote and later it was backed up with an article from Alaska.edu in #172. All downdinged.

Finally, I am accused of distortion for stating what should be nice simple facts. Recognition that the Barrow poster tells us nothing except about what things were looking like in 2005 and 2006.

There are plenty of images that say something about the melting of the caps and the thickness of the ice that remains throughout the year. Pictures of the sea within 2 miles of the shores of Barrow are not them.

529 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:19:10pm

re: #528 ckb

You distorted my point to you, and I stand by the point that the thickness is relevant.

530 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:57:45pm

re: #528 ckb

Obviously, the US Geological Survey is in on the Great Hoax as well.

This conspiracy goes deeper than I ever imagined.

531 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 10:05:34pm

re: #163 reine.de.tout

Oops.
Sometimes salt deposits do spring a leak.
(That one the result of an oil drilling operation)

No oil beneath the deposits at the proposed Yucca Flats depository. No giant fruit flies in any case. :-)

532 freetoken  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 10:09:08pm

re: #530 Charles


This conspiracy goes deeper than I ever imagined.

It goes even deeper than you may imagine. From the history section of the USGS:

The United States Geological Survey was established on March 3, 1879, just a few hours before the mandatory close of the final session of the 45th Congress, when President Rutherford B. Hayes signed the bill appropriating money for sundry civil expenses of the Federal Government for the fiscal year beginning July 1, 1879.

Well, there you have it, President Hayes rushed the creation of another government bureaucracy into existence just hours before the Congress was about to go home, so the peoples’ representatives had no choice in the matter. Obviously President Hayes was afraid of bringing the matter before the Townhalls so the people could express their will.

Not only that, but the funding came from a “sundry” list of spending, so obviously President Hayes wouldn’t have to account for where every dollar went.

BTW, has anyone seen a copy of President Hayes’ birth certificate?

533 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 15, 2009 10:42:36pm

re: #500 WindUpBird

No. I have a knee-jerk reaction to people who insult my intelligence with bumper sticker playbook wisdom. Plenty of people have disagreed with me here and I have been very polite to them, because they are reasoned, explain their position in detail, and don’t resort to cheap gotchas. Plenty of people have tossed gotcha phrasebook crap at me, called me a troll, linked to baseless fake science, snark about Obama, snark abotu Al Gore, snark about Carter, snark about Pelosi, snark about big government, and then they get cry foul when i dismiss them.

Instead of the “YOU WANT TEH GOVZORMENT TO RUN EVERYTHANG” line, maybe you should actually explain to me how you think the health care system in this country should work, how we fix massively rising health care costs, how we combat recission by private insurance, how we stop people who are rape victims from ebing dropped by insurance. How we stop kids with cancer from being dropped by insurance. All these things, that are actually happening. All these problems! And your answer is one sentence. I don’t ACTUALLy believe the only solution is a government based system, I think it’s one solution. You would have known that earlier, if you didn’t go all reducto ad absurdum on me.

Wow, it’s really surprising that I don’t respond well to that!

Oh, and I’d like some evidence that medicare is a failure. Not snark, not bumper stickers, real evidence. From where I stand as someone who has worked in htalth care with medicare recipients, I think it’s a roaring success. Republicans oppose expanding medicare, I notice they won’t dare touch the issue of abolishing medicare.

OK, here goes. First thing we must do is decouple medical care and insurance from employment. Make it tax deductible, period. Make it portable, so that one can buy insurance and carry it from state to state. That pretty much ends the problem of preexisting conditions, because nobody is forced to switch insurance time and again. Those who decide never to buy until they get sick will still be in trouble, granted. Insurance simply cannot play the game of paying benefits out of premiums when nobody pays premiums until they need benefits. Portability ends the problem of legitimate rescission. Law enforcement [fraud laws] should cover the other type.

We already have laws against fraud. If enforced, they would handily cover outrages like dropping people when they come down with cancer, or get raped, or whatever.

Fix tort law. That solves the problem of lawsuit-preventive medical tests and procedures.

Make hospital error correction like airline error correction is now, with rules that require reporting of mistakes and bad results to the FAA, but spare the penalties. That way, hospitals can move up the learning curve rather than have every incentive to pretend they have no problem to start with and brush them under the table.

Establish government run clinics that treat minor complaints and provide immunizations and basic medical advice and screening. Take some of the load off the ERs.

As to medicare, it works after a fashion, but there are two ways to count costs. The paper money cost of medicare is whatever the govt pays. The real world cost is the cost that the same care involves in the private sector.

On the technical side, our current system is good. Cancer survival rates are 30% better than in Britain, for instance. When (if, please?) we go to a British style NHS, we’ll lose that.

534 spoosmith  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:29:15am

re: #206 Charles

Uh, it isn’t. The fact is that government health care really does work quite well in many countries.

And I have lived and worked in 4 of them, ALL of which I would take over the US system any day. They pay less, have lower infant mortality rates and longer lifespans. And no one goes bankrupt due to medical bills. Are they perfect? No. But as a person with MS, I don’t have to worry that my insurance coverage will suddenly be revoked when I become a liability.

535 robdouth  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 7:59:38am

re: #259 Basho

It’s worth nothing unless you are removing car accidents and violent crime so that you are isolating the effect of healthcare only. I know it that case it’s not plus three to Canada.

536 robdouth  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 8:03:34am

re: #535 robdouth

Let me clarify before someone goes apeshit. That doesn’t move us ahead of Canada. The better argument against Canada is the lack of medical professionals, and services to rural areas. FWIW.


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