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John Birch Society to Cosponsor CPAC 2010

Weird • Views: 7,581

If anyone is still wondering why I want absolutely nothing to do with what the so-called “conservative” movement has become, please note that one of the cosponsors for the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in 2010 will be … the antisemitic, racist, conspiracy theory-promoting John Birch Society. There are plenty of other extreme right wing groups on their cosponsor list too, but the addition of the Birchers puts the frosting on the cake: Conservative Political Action Conference Cosponsors.

There was a time when this lunatic hate group was marginalized and shoved out to the fringes, as they deserved, but people like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul have been working hard at bringing them back to the mainstream — and now here they are at CPAC.

I’d say “unbelievable,” but it’s sadly all too believable. The right wing is completely off the rails, over the cliff, and plunging toward the rocks. Disgusting.

UPDATE at 12/16/09 11:42:26 am:

And at the same time, the “Liberty Council” (it’s in quotes because this is a theocratic group that actually believes in the exact opposite of liberty) is threatening to pull out of CPAC if homosexual group GOProud remains as a cosponsor. (Content warning: the link goes to Google’s cache of a really ugly homophobic right wing site.)

So they’re fine with racists and conspiracy mongers, but want to purge the gay people.

UPDATE at 12/16/09 1:21:27 pm:

Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

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298 comments

1 windsagio  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:25:56am

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

2 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:27:14am

re: #1 windsagio

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

You won't find many here that will.

3 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:27:24am

What is wrong with the Society for the Preservation of Wooden Toilet Seats (Birch John Society). Don't they support American industry? //

(recylced from last thread but more topical here)

4 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:27:55am

William F. Buckley is no doubt rolling in his grave.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:28:26am

re: #4 Gus 802

William F. Buckley is no doubt rolling in his grave.

He's not rolling, he's seeing if he can break through the coffin lid.

6 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:28:39am
There was a time when this lunatic hate group was marginalized and shoved out to the fringes, as they deserved, but people like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul have been working hard at bringing them back to the mainstream — and now here they are at CPAC.

It's absolutely insane. Ironically the Birch Society will be welcome but Hot Air pointed out today that conservatives are trying to prevent Gay Republican groups from attending CPAC.

7 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:28:44am

BASTARDS!! I PLAY BLACKJACK!! (from the list)
[Link: theppa.org...]

8 Mark Pennington  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:28:47am

re: #1 windsagio

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

They'll go on as though nothing is wrong and ignore the discussion. The right wing sites and blogs won't even mention it...wait and see.

9 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:28:56am

Boycott CPAC if you are a sane Republican.

10 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:29:00am

the keynote will go something like this:


May i present the end of the GOP as a national political party................
11 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:29:52am

I'll be watching who attends this.

12 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:30:37am

Mind blowing speech by Robert Welch in 1958 predicting Insiders plans to destroy America

What's old is new again.

13 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:30:41am

I wish that they were plunging towards the rocks - the sense of acceleration and the rapidly expanding view of hard, craggy surfaces might motivate a change in actions.

But it isn't.

And even when they hit and the gas tank explodes they will rejoice that the spectacle attracted more attention for the cause and that they showed their true bona-fides by riding the whole thing out.

The krazee ride is a self reinforcing experience.

14 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:30:57am

For some reason, my definition and their definition of conservative just don't seem to be the same.

15 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:30:57am

I thought I was a Christian until the Real Christians™ told me Mormons weren't Christian.

I thought I was Patriotic until the Real Patriots™ told me I wasn't a patriot unless I protested tea taxes.

I thought I was conservative until the Real Conservatives™ told me separation of Church and State was for uber-libs.

sigh. (Cue Ojoe and the Modern Whig party...)

16 Bob Dillon  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:31:45am

Used to be a knock out question for military service back in 1960 anyway, when I joined.

"Are you a member of or have any association with the JBS?"

We've come a long way, Baby.

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:32:10am

re: #9 Thanos

Boycott CPAC if you are a sane Republican.

Would it at least embarass them a little if Republicans picketed the event?

18 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:32:13am

re: #4 Gus 802

William F. Buckley is no doubt rolling in his grave.

You are correct. In fact:
William F. Buckley is rolling in his grave fast enough to be a viable alternative energy source. Just wrap his legs in copper wire and tap the power!

19 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:32:20am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

It's absolutely insane. Ironically the Birch Society will be welcome but Hot Air pointed out today that conservatives are trying to prevent Gay Republican groups from attending CPAC.

Stone the unfaithful monkeys ill-designed-yet-to-be-saved-pray-for-them-while-insulting-them persons.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:33:01am

re: #10 wozzablog

the keynote will go something like this:

My father has been saying that if this goes on, the music for the next RNC should be the theme song from MASH.

21 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #15 DaddyG

I'm Christian, Patriotic, and Conservative. Those jackasses can go fuck themselves.

22 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:33:54am

re: #9 Thanos

Boycott CPAC if you are a sane Republican.


Hell I'm boycottin the Republican Party until they prove they are sane Republicans. As in: "Call me again for money once you decide to run a viable small government conservative candidate for office..."

23 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:34:21am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Mind blowing speech by Robert Welch in 1958 predicting Insiders plans to destroy America


What's old is new again.

An a footnote from W F Buckley:

In 1962, Buckley denounced Robert W. Welch, Jr., and the John Birch Society, in National Review, as "far removed from common sense" and urged the GOP to purge itself of Mr. Welch's influence.

24 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:34:50am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Except viewing this is anything but painless.

25 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:35:21am

Big Tent is now a Revival Tent.

Sinners and Sodomites need not enter.

26 Baier  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

For some reason, my definition and their definition of conservative just don't seem to be the same.

Yeah right. Mine has nothing to do with conserving "American Culture".

27 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:35:29am

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist

Would it at least embarass them a little if Republicans picketed the event?

I would hope so, some of the other groups attending are almost as bad - Eagle Forum, YafF, etc.

28 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:35:30am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

He's not rolling, he's seeing if he can break through the coffin lid.

/picturing a Zombie WFB t-shirt

29 theliel  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:04am

Ugh. At least it's in the open now.

30 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:05am

re: #25 karmic_inquisitor

Big Tent is now a Revival Tent.

Sinners and Sodomites need not enter.

Unless you are redeemed for your sin and granted dispensation through James Dobson.

31 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:05am

Hi all! Just a really, really quick OT, but this is just too good to pass up:

N.C. Woman Lay Dead in Bed for 8 Months Despite Daily Visits

Sad - or disgusting - as the story is, you just can't make quotes like this up:

"They were quiet and stayed to themselves all the time," neighbor Ray Taylor, 72, said of the home's residents.

Uh, Ray....she was DEAD!!!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.

32 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:11am

GOProud's CPAC Sponsorship Is Threatening to Undo Anti-Gay Conservatism


We've argued that GOProud joining hate groups like Focus on the Family and the National Organization for Marriage to sponsor the Conservative Political Action Conference was actually no big deal to gays. But it is a big deal to raging homophobes!

The Liberty Counsel’s Matt Barber (pictured here with a limp wrist) is threatening to boycott CPAC if the "social liberals" at GOProud remain a sponsor, reports stand-up comedian Peter LaBarbera.

GOProud — a running joke among gay conservatives — isn't just tearing apart the Republican gay community. It's responsible for the possible civil war among heterosexual Republican zealots.

Gays aren't welcome but nobody is going to complain about the Birch Society.

33 KingKenrod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:27am

If I was a CPAC co-sponsor and my name showed up in a list with the JBS, I'd damn sure un-sponsor myself until the JBS got kicked to the curb.

34 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:31am

re: #21 cliffster

I'm Christian, Patriotic, and Conservative. Those jackasses can go fuck themselves.

...yes but we usually say "I say unto you go and multipy and prosper with yourself". /

35 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:36:47am

Good find, irenicum.

36 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:37:26am

re: #25 karmic_inquisitor

Big Tent is now a Revival Tent.

Sinners and Sodomites need not enter.

Shit, I'm out.

37 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist

Would it at least embarass them a little if Republicans picketed the event?

Nobody will boycott this event. Right wing blogs will completely ignore the story. This is the modern conservative movement.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:37:50am

re: #26 Baier

Yeah right. Mine has nothing to do with conserving "American Culture".

American Culture is not a chutney. It is a living thing.

39 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:37:57am

OT: To me this is very good news:

huffingtonpost.com - Franken's Anti-Rape Amendment Survives

An amendment that would prevent the government from working with contractors who deny victims of sexual assault the right to bring their case in court has survived attempts to dull its impact and seems poised to become law.

40 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:38:19am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

You have a non-HotAir link for that?

41 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:38:40am

re: #37 Charles

Nobody will boycott this event. Right wing blogs will completely ignore the story. This is the modern conservative movement.

I'm hoping you are wrong for once Charles, but thinking you are probably right.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #31 subsailor68

Hi all! Just a really, really quick OT, but this is just too good to pass up:

N.C. Woman Lay Dead in Bed for 8 Months Despite Daily Visits

Sad - or disgusting - as the story is, you just can't make quotes like this up:

"They were quiet and stayed to themselves all the time," neighbor Ray Taylor, 72, said of the home's residents.

Uh, Ray...she was DEAD!!!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.

Holy...huh...how...um...

44 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:40:43am

re: #43 Charles

Liberty Counsel May Lead Pullout of CPAC if Homosexual Group GOProud Remains as Co-Sponsor

Teh ghey is communicable. Simply a heath precaution, no doubt.

/

45 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #43 Charles

Liberty Counsel May Lead Pullout of CPAC if Homosexual Group GOProud Remains as Co-Sponsor

Wow that americansfortruth.com site is .... disturbing.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:02am

re: #41 Thanos

I'm hoping you are wrong for once Charles, but thinking you are probably right.

All it takes is a dozen proud Republicans with signs, and a willingness to talk to the press. Heck, HALF a dozen.

I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin' because I'm a Democrat, and nowhere near the area.

47 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:04am

re: #40 Ben Hur

See #32

48 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

I would nominate the GOP for a Darwin Award........... except they reproduced via the Tea Party.


*sigh*

49 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:41am

It's all Obama's fault.///

50 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:41:55am

BTW, if you're interested, the Japanese presser is on now:

[Link: www5.cop15.meta-fusion.com...]

The only people I've heard yet who pronounce "Kyoto" correctly (duh.)

It seems beyond the European language palatte to pronounce the syllable "kyo".

51 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:42:35am

This is very, very, bad.
Would they also allow the Nazi Party to cosponsor?

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:42:49am

re: #43 Charles

Liberty Counsel May Lead Pullout of CPAC if Homosexual Group GOProud Remains as Co-Sponsor

But they're OK with the bleeping John Birch Society?

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

53 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:42:53am

re: #43 Charles

This group is pushing a radical leftist agenda that is an affront to the GOP platform, conservatism and, most importantly, the Word of God.”

Lol

54 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:43:18am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

But they're OK with the bleeping John Birch Society?

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

Upding for Chad Mitchell Trio

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:43:31am

re: #44 karmic_inquisitor

Teh ghey is communicable. Simply a heath precaution, no doubt.

/

Mind you, ghey bites can be quite nasty...

/

56 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #49 JasonA

It's all Obama's fault.///

well the next election will be an up or down vote on Obama, so in a way that is true...

57 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:44:01am

re: #43 Charles

Who cares if they agree with us 85% of the time? They're a bunch of godless sodomites who we'll deal with when we get the chance!

///

Crazy motherfuckers doesn't begin to describe the "Conservatives" who wrote that.

58 rurality  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:44:04am

re: #22 DaddyG

Hell I'm boycottin the Republican Party until they prove they are sane Republicans. As in: "Call me again for money once you decide to run a viable small government conservative candidate for office..."

Any candidate that espouses return to small gov, might be viable to you, but the candidate is pandering/lying. This country will never return to small gov. it's not in gov's interest to allow reduction of influence and power.

59 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:44:11am

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

This is very, very, bad.
Would they also allow the Nazi Party to cosponsor?

It's only one short step away from that.

60 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:44:39am

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

All it takes is a dozen proud Republicans with signs, and a willingness to talk to the press. Heck, HALF a dozen.

I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin' because I'm a Democrat, and nowhere near the area.

Another thing to do is to make prominent posts as speakers are identified: "Senator X to speak at JBS sponsored Meeting" "Congresscritter Y to address Birchers"

Luap Nor was the first to go public and come out of the Bircher closet, everyone of these sunsabitches need to be pilloried.

61 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:44:43am

re: #45 Locker

Wow that americansfortruth.com site is ... disturbing.

Yep. This is the really ugly anti-gay side of the right wing.

62 nanook37  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:45:52am

They are against the gay republican groups because they may catch Teh Gay. The JBS is OK because they already caught the bat-crap crazy....

63 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:45:53am

re: #56 brookly red

well the next election will be an up or down vote on Obama, so in a way that is true...

Next election?

NEXT ELECTION?!?

Obama has Osama hidden away in P'stan and will whip him out just in time for a false flag Reichstag fire to declare martial law and become Emporer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:46:03am

re: #54 Alouette

Upding for Chad Mitchell Trio

Looks like we're going to have to update the lyrics.

Do you want Rahm Emanuel for your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Chavez in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in

65 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:46:18am

re: #56 brookly red

I'm sorry - but if you honestly believe that after the tone set over the first year that the 2012 election is going to be a straight up and down vote on Obama's achievments you will be sorely mistaken.

Teh Crazy in '12 will make the Swift Boaters look like principled and non-partisan political novices.

66 Motti  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:46:24am

The Times of London says that the "smoking gun" relating to Iran's nuclear weapons program has been found.

Confidential intelligence documents obtained by The Times show that Iran is working on testing a key final component of a nuclear bomb.
67 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #43 Charles

Liberty Counsel May Lead Pullout of CPAC if Homosexual Group GOProud Remains as Co-Sponsor

Hi Charles! I can't believe I clicked that link. You owe me a bottle of my blood pressure medicine! (Not really.) And the writer of the diatribe on that site actually complains that "religious conservatives" have been "getting the shaft from CPAC"...while demanding that CPAC shaft GOProud or Liberty Counsel will take its toys and go home.

Absolutely mind-boggling.

68 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:46:57am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Lol

Lets see, smaller government, lower taxes, strong defense, yeah I got that. But where the fuck did this WORD OF GOD shit come from?

69 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #62 nanook37

They are against the gay republican groups because they may catch Teh Gay. The JBS is OK because they already caught the bat-crap crazy...

JBS is like Patient Zero for Teh Batshit

70 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:47:49am

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

This is very, very, bad.
Would they also allow the Nazi Party to cosponsor?

Nazis are okay, its just Hitler they don't like.

///

71 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:47:49am

re: #67 subsailor68

Hi Charles! I can't believe I clicked that link. You owe me a bottle of my blood pressure medicine! (Not really.) And the writer of the diatribe on that site actually complains that "religious conservatives" have been "getting the shaft from CPAC"...while demanding that CPAC shaft GOProud or Liberty Counsel will take its toys and go home.

Absolutely mind-boggling.

I just added a content warning to the update above, and the link now goes to Google's cache. That's a hate site.

72 Motti  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:48:26am

For some reason most of my post above was not sent . Here is the link

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

73 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:48:56am

re: #55 SanFranciscoZionist

Mind you, ghey bites can be quite nasty...

/

Almost as bad as drinking water with fluoride in it.

74 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:50:14am

re: #72 Motti

For some reason most of my post above was not sent . Here is the link

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

At least the world will believe the Timesonline telling them what Israel has been saying for years.

75 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:51:17am

re: #65 wozzablog

I'm sorry - but if you honestly believe that after the tone set over the first year that the 2012 election is going to be a straight up and down vote on Obama's achievments you will be sorely mistaken.

Teh Crazy in '12 will make the Swift Boaters look like principled and non-partisan political novices.

well the next election is 2010 not 12 & yes elections, especially off year ones are basically an endorsement or rejection of the standing party's record.

76 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:52:12am

re: #1 windsagio

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

Why would we? Birchers are about as far from Conservatism as it's possible to get.

Just sent an email expressing my disgust to CPAC. It's listed at the bottom of their website for anyone else who's interested.

77 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:52:27am

Threatening to pull out? Well.. step up!

78 theliel  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:53:04am

FOr those Lizards who ever read/played Unkown Armies know what the Modern GOP is: The Godwalker of The Warrior.

The Warrior isn't FOR anything, he's AGAINST something (Gehys, liburls, 'elites' etc.) They've got this being 'against' something down to a science.

They're not fiscally conservative or pro-small government, they're anti-anything that someone else wants.

It's no way to have an effective political party.

79 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:53:10am

After washing away the slime from visiting that americansfortruth website I find that I need to issue a thank you note. So here we go:

I would like to offer my deepest respect and admiration for those of you who considers yourselves conservative/right side while rejecting the hate based anti-gay vomit spew that seems to infiltrate so many of the socially conservative.

Thank you. Very, very much.

80 Vidiotic  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:53:18am

Sadly, the intelligent conservatives have already bolted from the party, or they're laying low to save their skins. The rabble has taken over, and this is scary. They've piece mealed health legislation into a powerless scam, and they may have enough numbers next year to dominate the off year elections. I knew we were in trouble when I was ganged up on in a Topix discussion (I know, probably my own fault for being there) and ostracized for being over-educated. Over-educated. The era of an even lower common denominator may already be upon us.

81 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:53:24am

Your text to link...

Sad this was written nearly 50 years ago....

82 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:53:41am

Cut Off The Fringe.

Its the only way back

83 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:54:58am

re: #71 Charles

Did you pull my spin-off link on the last thread?

84 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:55:36am

re: #71 Charles

I just added a content warning to the update above, and the link now goes to Google's cache. That's a hate site.

Yeah, no doubt. The paragraph under "What is conservatism?" is nauseatingly hate-filled. Sorry guys, that's not conservatism. Try again.

85 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:55:40am

re: #79 Locker

Well said.

86 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:56:14am

"And if we’re no more than animals, we must snatch each little scrap of happiness, and live, and suffer, and pass, mattering no more than all the other animals do or have done. It is this, or that. All the universe or nothing. Which shall it be, Passworthy? Which shall it be?"

Hopefully this is not destined to be an appropriate movie quote for where things will lead.

87 Jaerik  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:56:15am

On a more philosophical topic, watching the meltdown of the GOP has gotten me thinking:

Categorization and guilt-by-association is built into all of us. It's a vital evolutionary tool: I ate this kind of berry once and got very sick. I will not try to eat said berries again.

However, we've grown up being taught that the same categorization with people is an injustice, especially along lines of race, gender, etc.

There seems to be a cultural exception for behavior and group identity, though. Nobody argues that it's wrong to shun all members of NAMBLA because their primary group identity is having sex with young boys, for example.

So the question becomes: what percent of a particular group needs to behave badly before it becomes socially acceptable to extend the blanket negative assumption to all members of said group? In other words, at what point does the No True Scotsman defense fail?

I'm nearing that point with climate change deniers, and more and more frequently, the entire Republican party. But I like to objectify these things, and thinking about the independent variables involved in such a determination is an interesting thought experiment.

88 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:56:18am

re: #75 brookly red

well the next election is 2010 not 12 & yes elections, especially off year ones are basically an endorsement or rejection of the standing party's record.

Off year elections, unfortunately, also tend to favor extremists; their followers are more motivated to vote and can easily overwhelm more level headed voters.

Add that to the near certainty that the GOP will pick up seats just as a matter of historical probability, and there's a non-zero chance that the loons will claim victory (rightly or wrongly) and gain momentum going into the next election cycle.

Or, not. A win for the loons could as easily build disgust within the party and lead to their ouster.

Either way, 2012 is roughly an entire eternity away in political time. Actual predictions are pretty much impossible.

89 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:56:39am

re: #71 Charles

I just added a content warning to the update above, and the link now goes to Google's cache. That's a hate site.

Yeah, I get your point - it's definitely a hate site. But I'm really glad you posted the link for one major reason: these roaches really need to be hit with the white-hot light of exposure, and the best thing that could happen is for folks to see exactly what these people are thinking, writing, and saying - in their own words.

I know I tend to be an idealist, but other than those morons out there who already agree with this kind of disgusting crap, the overall reaction - I hope and pray - will be one of total abhorrence.

90 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:56:55am

re: #77 cliffster

Threatening to pull out? Well.. step up!

My thoughts, too. Their absence would be a bad thing...how, exactly?

91 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:57:01am

re: #83 Ben Hur

Did you pull my spin-off link on the last thread?

Please take a look at the person whose video you posted:

rageunderground's Channel

92 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:57:34am

Read the list......ok I give up.....who the hell is the "Poker Players Alliance"

93 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:57:58am

re: #75 brookly red

My bad, thought you were referencing the next Presidential elections.

The mid-terms are going to be kooksville. The netroots will have candidates out against the right wing dems and the teabaggers will have candidates out against the centrist Repubs.

It's going to be a mess that won't come down to a yes/no on Obama.

94 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #87 Jaerik

Honestly I'm not sure, because our opinions are normally based on perception, that the percentage of the membership matters. Normally it's the position, behavior or voice of the leadership/spokespeople which affects the overall judgment.

Just a thought.

95 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:58:13am

re: #74 Ben Hur

At least the world will believe the Timesonline telling them what Israel has been saying for years.

Come on now - there are all sorts of civilian uses for nuclear triggers. I can think of three off the top of my head -

1) a really effective car alarm. Someone bumps your car and it sets off a perfectly spherical shaped charge. They will never bump your car again.

2) door bell for an extremely large house. Someone presses it and it sets off a perfectly spherical shaped charge, telling the occupants that someone is at the door.

3) initiator for a mass hanging of convicted homosexuals. Alert all of the executioners in a three mile radius to commence hanging convicted homosexuals. Works both in Iran and at CPAC conferences.

96 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:58:45am

re: #91 Charles

WTF?

Sorry about that. I'll be sure to check next time.

97 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #35 The Sanity Inspector

Thanks! I appreciate that!

98 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:59:44am

re: #91 Charles

Please take a look at the person whose video you posted:

rageunderground's Channel

Well that was interesting

99 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:00:04pm

re: #96 Ben Hur

WTF?

Sorry about that. I'll be sure to check next time.

It really should tell you something about your inclination to believe the climate deniers.

100 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #93 wozzablog

My bad, thought you were referencing the next Presidential elections.

The mid-terms are going to be kooksville. The netroots will have candidates out against the right wing dems and the teabaggers will have candidates out against the centrist Repubs.

It's going to be a mess that won't come down to a yes/no on Obama.

Oh, but they are already being billed as such...

101 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:01:25pm

Payback is a Birch sometimes.

102 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:01:27pm

re: #91 Charles

Please take a look at the person whose video you posted:

rageunderground's Channel

That makes me want to break a toilet bowl with my head.

103 Jaerik  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:01:35pm

re: #94 Locker

Honestly I'm not sure, because our opinions are normally based on perception, that the percentage of the membership matters. Normally it's the position, behavior or voice of the leadership/spokespeople which affects the overall judgment.

Just a thought.

Right, the determination is definitely going to be subjective and up to the individual in question.

The scientist in me wants to pin down the variables, though, even if it's impossible to quantify.

I assume whether or not you personally are a member of said group is a big scalar factor in the percentage "trigger point." For some people, it means there is no trigger point at all - they will invoke No True Scotsman all the way until they are the last person standing.

I also assume that the representative role of the people acting badly is important. If the group has offered the person as representative of their values, and that person does something bad, does that count as a single strike against the group, or is it weighted? If so, by how much? Etc.

104 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:01:35pm

re: #91 Charles

Please take a look at the person whose video you posted:

rageunderground's Channel

The horror...
The horror...

105 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #39 Locker

Good for him! Franken may end up being not so bad after all.

106 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:02:22pm

re: #99 Charles

It really should tell you something about your inclination to believe the climate deniers.

I'm not entirely sure where I am with it.

107 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:02:39pm

re: #99 Charles

It really should tell you something about your inclination to believe the climate deniers.

Did I miss something.....does this mean we are equivocating climate deniers with homophobic hate sites? I mean stupid is one thing but visceral hate is entirely different.

108 Motti  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:03:03pm

Here's the post I tried to send in #66

Confidential intelligence documents obtained by The Times show that Iran is working on testing a key final component of a nuclear bomb.

The notes, from Iran’s most sensitive military nuclear project, describe a four-year plan to test a neutron initiator, the component of a nuclear bomb that triggers an explosion. Foreign intelligence agencies date them to early 2007, four years after Iran was thought to have suspended its weapons programme
The technical document describes the use of a neutron source, uranium deuteride, which independent experts confirm has no possible civilian or military use other than in a nuclear weapon. Uranium deuteride is the material used in Pakistan’s bomb, from where Iran obtained its blueprint. “Although Iran might claim that this work is for civil purposes, there is no civil application,” said David Albright, a physicist and president of the Institute for Science and International Security in Washington... “This is a very strong indicator of weapons work.”
Mark Fitzpatrick, senior fellow for non-proliferation at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, said: “The most shattering conclusion is that, if this was an effort that began in 2007, it could be a casus belli. If Iran is working on weapons, it means there is no diplomatic solution.”

The Times had the documents, which were originally written in Farsi, translated into English and had the translation separately verified by two Farsi speakers. While much of the language is technical, it is clear that the Iranians are intent on concealing their nuclear military work behind legitimate civilian research.
The documents detail a plan for tests to determine whether the device works — without detonating an explosion leaving traces of uranium detectable by the outside world. If such traces were found, they would be taken as irreversible evidence of Iran’s intention to become a nuclear-armed power....
Mr Fitzpatrick said: “Is this the smoking gun? That’s the question people should be asking. It looks like the smoking gun. This is smoking uranium.”

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

109 filetandrelease  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:03:23pm

Another Rhino is going down.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:03:43pm

re: #63 Ben Hur

Next election?

NEXT ELECTION?!?

Obama has Osama hidden away in P'stan and will whip him out just in time for a false flag Reichstag fire to declare martial law and become Emporer!!!11!!

Oh yeah. Bush was going to do that, but he musta forgot...

//

111 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh yeah. Bush was going to do that, but he musta forgot...

//

You always have a 50 comment lag!

112 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:04:30pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh yeah. Bush was going to do that, but he musta forgot...

//

Dammit, Cheney - I told you to write that down.

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:04:57pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nazis are okay, its just Hitler they don't like.

///

I'm not sure it's Hitler they don't like, so much as people who are literally just like Hitler.

Genuine Hitler only! Accept no substitutions!

114 Baier  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:05:04pm

OT
I would love an LGF Podcast someday!

115 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:05:07pm

re: #102 cliffster

That makes me want to break a toilet bowl with my head.

Don't you mean a Birch toilet bowl?

116 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #109 filetandrelease

Not just a RINO, but one who is alleged to be gay... though I don't know if that is a planted attempt at a smear, or one of those well known "facts" that everyone repeats.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:05:43pm

re: #79 Locker

After washing away the slime from visiting that americansfortruth website I find that I need to issue a thank you note. So here we go:

I would like to offer my deepest respect and admiration for those of you who considers yourselves conservative/right side while rejecting the hate based anti-gay vomit spew that seems to infiltrate so many of the socially conservative.

Thank you. Very, very much.

Me too.

118 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not sure it's Hitler they don't like, so much as people who are literally just like Hitler.

Genuine Hitler only! Accept no substitutions!

We've secretly replaced their usual Hitler with Folger's crystals, let just watch.

119 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:06:44pm

re: #107 Big Steve

Did I miss something...does this mean we are equivocating climate deniers with homophobic hate sites? I mean stupid is one thing but visceral hate is entirely different.

Yes, you missed something -- Ben Hur posted a link to a video making a bunch of stupid, nonsensical claims about the CRU emails, and the video was produced by a raving nutjob.

Hence my comment that it ought to show him something about where he's getting his information on climate change.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:07:13pm

re: #102 cliffster

That makes me want to break a toilet bowl with my head.

Please don't. It's hard to install a new toilet when you have a concussion.

121 Big Steve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:07:58pm

re: #119 Charles

Yes, you missed something -- Ben Hur posted a link to a video making a bunch of stupid, nonsensical claims about the CRU emails, and the video was produced by a raving nutjob.

Hence my comment that it ought to show him something about where he's getting his information on climate change.

ok....thanks....makes sense now.

122 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:08:02pm

re: #111 Ben Hur

You always have a 50 comment lag!

must have Vista...

123 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:08:34pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Please don't. It's hard to install a new toilet when you have a concussion.

No need to install one. No toilet bowl on the planet could contain all the shit on that page.

124 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:08:37pm

re: #1 windsagio

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

Did you find any spin here yet... I just got here. Have you been monitoring the spin?

125 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:09:15pm

re: #81 Slap

Talkin' John Birch

Sad this was written nearly 50 years ago...


I gotta learn the ins and outs of titling these things. Now corrected.

126 jaunte  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:09:18pm

re: #67 subsailor68

Hi Charles! I can't believe I clicked that link. You owe me a bottle of my blood pressure medicine! (Not really.) And the writer of the diatribe on that site actually complains that "religious conservatives" have been "getting the shaft from CPAC"...while demanding that CPAC shaft GOProud or Liberty Counsel will take its toys and go home.

Absolutely mind-boggling.

No kidding. I don't think any over-the-top parody could be anywhere near that insane.

127 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:09:23pm

re: #122 brookly red

must have Vista...

...or Windows 7. Apparently, somewhere around a third of customers experience a total vapor lock about 70% of the way through installation, from which there is no recovery.

128 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:10:06pm

re: #119 Charles

Yes, you missed something -- Ben Hur posted a link to a video making a bunch of stupid, nonsensical claims about the CRU emails, and the video was produced by a raving nutjob.

Hence my comment that it ought to show him something about where he's getting his information on climate change.

I'll have to take your word for it because I know ZERO about computer code.

I don't think the nut who posted it, produced the video. I think it was a British news program.

129 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:10:06pm

re: #127 SixDegrees

...or Windows 7. Apparently, somewhere around a third of customers experience a total vapor lock about 70% of the way through installation, from which there is no recovery.

some day I will have a Mac...

130 recusancy  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:10:13pm

OT: Coburn is delaying Troop Funding

Way back on December 2nd, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) filed a single-payer amendment to the Senate health care bill, which was supposed to come up for a vote this afternoon. But at the last moment, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), at the behest Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK), demanded that the entire 700-plus page amendment be read aloud on the floor. That's happening now.

Under normal circumstances, this would be a 10 or 12 hour dilatory tactic. But not today. Today, Democrats were planning to file for cloture on the Defense Appropriations bill, in order to get it passed by Friday before midnight when department funding runs out. If the entire amendment is read aloud, it's likely that the Senate won't be able to pass the defense bill until Saturday at the earliest, and would have to pass a short-term continuing resolution to keep money flowing.
"The only thing that Sen. Coburn's stunt achieves is to stop us from moving to the DoD appropriations bill that funds our troops - not exactly the kind of Christmas gift that our troops were expecting from Dr. No," said Jim Manley, spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.
131 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:10:55pm

re: #1 windsagio

posted in last thread too, can't wait to see conservatives spin why this is okay!

Can't, because it's not.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #122 brookly red

must have Vista...

No, I'm doing computer work in another screen, popping beck every few minutes. Sometimes I fall behind. And I have a very linear mind.

133 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #129 brookly red

some day I will have a Mac...

Step back... don't do it...

134 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:11:39pm

re: #129 brookly red

some day I will have a Mac...

There's also Linux, which is what I use.

But, to be honest, Linux is the OS that will never be ready for prime time.

135 filetandrelease  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:11:40pm

re: #116 freetoken

Not just a RINO, but one who is alleged to be gay... though I don't know if that is a planted attempt at a smear, or one of those well known "facts" that everyone repeats.

As a Floridian, I have not heard that, as a conservative, I could care less. But it is nice to see him on his way out.

136 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:12:11pm

re: #131 BruceKelly

Can't, because it's not.

I was asking if there was any spin yet in this thread. I can't find any. Was Windsagio blowing... well... a lot of wind?

137 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:12:13pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

No, I'm doing computer work in another screen, popping beck every few minutes. Sometimes I fall behind. And I have a very linear mind.

/poping Beck is not smart...

138 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:12:31pm

re: #92 Big Steve

Read the list...ok I give up...who the hell is the "Poker Players Alliance"

A political lobby trying to keep Poker legal but I suspect they are a front for large gambling interests, particularly the online casinos.

139 cliffster  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:12:37pm

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

Did you find any spin here yet... I just got here. Have you been monitoring the spin?

Always disappointing to people when conservatives act normal. Doesn't get coverage, mind you, that would put a rational conservative on the forefront. Send another team to follow the Palin bus!

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:13:13pm

re: #137 brookly red

/poping Beck is not smart...

Freudian typo?

141 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:13:34pm

The Syrian minister is speaking now... would it surprise anyone that she is rambling on about Israel?

[Link: www10.cop15.meta-fusion.com...]

142 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:13:39pm

re: #109 filetandrelease

Another Rhino is going down.

Great, isn't that wonderful.

Meanwhile, Marc Rubio is a creationist who wants to force the teaching of his anti-science nonsense into public schools.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

143 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:13:55pm

re: #128 Ben Hur

I'll have to take your word for it because I know ZERO about computer code.

I don't think the nut who posted it, produced the video. I think it was a British news program.

I'm sorry, it was the BBC.

144 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:14:06pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

Freudian typo?

or just shopping for gold...

145 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:14:06pm

....re: #137 brookly red

To is a preposition, pope is a verb....?

146 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #138 Thanos

A political lobby trying to keep Poker legal but I suspect they are a front for large gambling interests, particularly the online casinos.

GODLESS SINNERS WHO GAMBLE! CAST THEM FROM THE BIG TENT!

///

147 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:14:46pm

re: #125 Slap

I gotta learn the ins and outs of titling these things. Now corrected.

If you paste the link by itself, on its own line, we can click on it and view the video on this page.

'Cause you know we don't want to go anywhere else if we don't have to...

148 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:14:59pm

This morning while at the dentist office I read a essay in last weeks time magazine by Bjorn Lomborg. Anyone know much about this guy?

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:15:08pm

re: #141 freetoken

The Syrian minister is speaking now... would it surprise anyone that she is rambling on about Israel?

[Link: www10.cop15.meta-fusion.com...]

Not especially. Syrian minister of what?

150 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:15:32pm

I think we've finally created a time machine, but it only goes backwards. It's called the GOP.

151 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #145 Slap

...

To is a preposition, pope is a verb...?

here... p, now we are even/

152 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

Wasn't he on the Muppets?

153 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:16:42pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Not especially. Syrian minister of what?

Didn't catch it... probably "Environment" or something similar.

154 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

GODLESS SINNERS WHO GAMBLE! CAST THEM FROM THE BIG TENT!

///

The RR has shown zero qualms the past couple of decades about getting in bed with large gambling interests; hucksters tend to be drawn to each other. Witness the Ralph Reed part in the Abramoff scandal.

155 Kewalo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:16:58pm

re: #135 filetandrelease

I'm not a Floridian and don't know much about Crist. Would you mind explaining your objections to him? I'm really curious.

156 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:17:18pm
The right wing is completely off the rails, over the cliff, and plunging toward the rocks. Disgusting.

Absolutely. Some people seem to think such criticism amounts to saying 'all conservatives are evil' or, equally stupid, that it somehow implies that one is arguing that everyone on the left is perfect.

There has been a lot of that sort of whining around lately, sad to say. But the fact is that regardless of how many well intentioned, intelligent conservatives there may still be, it is at this point impossible to deny that the movement as a whole is going down a very bad path, and as of yet shows no sign of slowing down never mind changing direction.

157 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:17:28pm

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

This morning while at the dentist office I read a essay in last weeks time magazine by Bjorn Lomborg. Anyone know much about this guy?

About Bjorn Lomborg -- anyone tempted to believe he's a credible "expert" should read through the material on this website:

Lomborg Errors

His books are amazingly full of errors and misleading statements. He's not a climate scientist -- in fact, the only academic training he has is in political science and game theory, and he's published a grand total of exactly ONE scientific paper -- on game theory, not climatology.

More on Lomborg's background and climate change denial claims:

The Lomborg Story

158 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Not especially. Syrian minister of what?

I thought it said Syrian monster.

159 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:18:15pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Not especially. Syrian minister of what?

Syrian Minister of Massive Syrian Dumping into the Mediterranean?

Syrian Minister of "The Med is Our Toilet Bowl" Dept of Agriculture?

160 brookly red  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:18:24pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Not especially. Syrian minister of what?

Minister of not having nuclear ambitions... a very high post.

161 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:20:09pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

Hatchling rookie-ness. I think I still have pieces of shell getting in my keyboard.

162 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:20:39pm

re: #157 Charles

The problem with Lomborg's approach, IMO, is that it is extremely difficult to "price" some, perhaps many, of the negative consequences of AGW.

For example, the leader of Tuvalu spoke earlier tonight, and they have been quite vocal at Copenhagen. How does one price the loss of an entire nation?

NOTE: the Palestinian rep is speaking.

163 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:20:43pm

re: #103 Jaerik

Right, the determination is definitely going to be subjective and up to the individual in question.

The scientist in me wants to pin down the variables, though, even if it's impossible to quantify.

I assume whether or not you personally are a member of said group is a big scalar factor in the percentage "trigger point." For some people, it means there is no trigger point at all - they will invoke No True Scotsman all the way until they are the last person standing.

I also assume that the representative role of the people acting badly is important. If the group has offered the person as representative of their values, and that person does something bad, does that count as a single strike against the group, or is it weighted? If so, by how much? Etc.

I admire your efforts to pin down variables in the "reputation equation" but it seems like there are so many it would be a difficult task. The things that affect and build a person's perception are extremely diverse between individuals.

It seems to be a good starting point to determine from which perspective you are attempting to test the effect of reputation. Is it a member of the group? An opponent? A neutral party? Media person? How do they receive information? Who do they trust?

Here are some articles from physorg.com that might assist:

physorg.com - Negativity is contagious, study finds
physorg.com - Physicists model how we form opinions
phsyorg.com - Study: Believers' inferences about God's beliefs are uniquely egocentric
physorg.com - Trust your gut? Study explores religion, morality and trust in authority
physorg.com - Political views may skew perception of skin tone, new study finds
physorg.com - Politicians can use fear to manipulate the public
physorg.com - Psychologists study perception of mind
physorg.com - Believing is seeing, when it comes to emotions
physorg.com - Popular opinion not always so popular

There is lots more content available but that's a nice sampling.

164 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #119 Charles

Yes, you missed something -- Ben Hur posted a link to a video making a bunch of stupid, nonsensical claims about the CRU emails, and the video was produced by a raving nutjob.

Hence my comment that it ought to show him something about where he's getting his information on climate change.

Just for record, this is not even close to being accurate.

I didn't notice what YouTuber posted that particular one, but it's posted by others that are not as nuts, though I'm pretty sure it would be deleted if I were to post it.

All it was was a non-denier computer programmer being interviewed by the BBC about the computer "code" or programming at the CRU.

It wasn't a cartoon of a prophet.

165 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:22:19pm

re: #157 Charles

About Bjorn Lomborg -- anyone tempted to believe he's a credible "expert" should read through the material on this website:

Lomborg Errors

His books are amazingly full of errors and misleading statements. He's not a climate scientist -- in fact, the only academic training he has is in political science and game theory, and he's published a grand total of exactly ONE scientific paper -- on game theory, not climatology.

More on Lomborg's background and climate change denial claims:

The Lomborg Story

Just asking, Never heard the name before, saw the article in TIME, has an article this past week in WSJ and in regards to his errors...

"Response of the scientific community
The original DCSD decision about Lomborg provoked a petition[7] among Danish academics. 308 scientists, many of them from the social sciences, criticised the DCSD's methods in the case and called for the DCSD to be disbanded.[8] The Danish Minister of Science, Technology, and Innovation then asked the Danish Research Agency to form an independent working group to review DCSD practices.[9] In response to this, another group of Danish scientists collected over 600 signatures (primarily from the medical and natural sciences community) in support of the DCSD and presented their petition to the Danish Research Agency.[8]"

Looks like he has a lot of support among his peer's.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

FYI

166 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:22:49pm

"Separated from our land..."

167 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:24:06pm

re: #162 freetoken

NOTE: the Palestinian rep is speaking.

This is just pathetic.

Turning a conference on climate change into a diatribe against Israel. Anyone could have seen this coming.

168 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:24:50pm

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I sent you an email via the webpage listed in your NIC. An article I thought you might enjoy reading.

169 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:24:56pm

re: #167 Charles

This is just pathetic.

Turning a conference on climate change into a diatribe against Israel. Anyone could have seen this coming.

Global warming: it da Jooz fault!

170 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:25:32pm

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

Again, please go read the links I posted. His "work" is so full of well documented errors and deliberate misstatements, he should not be considered an expert by anyone.

171 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:26:02pm

re: #167 Charles

So far though it has only been the last two speakers of the day: Syria, and the PA.

Qatar, Lebanon and Egypt spoke earlier and Israel didn't even come up.

172 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:26:09pm

The Palestinians are speaking?

Are they giving information about climate change?

173 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:26:20pm

re: #167 Charles

This is just pathetic.

Turning a conference on climate change into a diatribe against Israel. Anyone could have seen this coming.

Everyone knows that Jews contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere due to their big noses.

/MASSIVE SARC

174 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:26:22pm

re: #167 Charles

This is just pathetic.

Turning a conference on climate change into a diatribe against Israel. Anyone could have seen this coming.

Who was it that said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"?

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #167 Charles

This is just pathetic.

Turning a conference on climate change into a diatribe against Israel. Anyone could have seen this coming.

All UN Conferences are. Letty Cottin Pogrebin's account of the UN conferences on the status of women is goddamn hair-raising.

And was criticized roundly by the Gentile feminist world when it was published in Ms.

176 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:27:08pm

re: #108 Motti

Here's the post I tried to send in #66


[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

"Afterwards", we won't be able to deceive ourselves that we didn't see it coming.

177 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:27:16pm

Every UN "conference" turns into BS.

178 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:27:43pm

re: #170 Charles

Again, please go read the links I posted. His "work" is so full of well documented errors and deliberate misstatements, he should not be considered an expert by anyone.

I am reading your links Charles. I hope you read mine.

It appears that he got a fair and thought interview on NPR this week.

179 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:28:07pm

re: #168 rwdflynavy

Walter, I sent you an email via the webpage listed in your NIC. An article I thought you might enjoy reading.

Thanks. I look for it.

180 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:28:23pm

The national positions are concluded for the day... but wait! The Chinese rep wants to say something before the gavel comes down on the day...

It is about.... Taiwan. A few delegates briefly mentioned "Taiwan" earlier... apparently that offends the Chinese, who just stated that there is but one China.

Gotta love UN meetings...

181 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:28:48pm

I'm very skeptical about "Iranian nuclear trigger" story in the London Times, by the way. Not because I have any doubt that Iran's working toward nuclear weapons, but because the Times has been caught several times promoting fake Iranian documents.

182 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:29:02pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

I was asking if there was any spin yet in this thread. I can't find any. Was Windsagio blowing... well... a lot of wind?

Just got here myself. I think Windsagio was referring to the conservative blogs and pundits. There's no way to spin this. It's a great big, smelly turd right in the middle of my living room floor.

183 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:29:19pm

re: #167 Charles

Well, they now have a President for Life in charge - the PLO gave Abbas an indefinite extension of his presidency. Of course, that's because Fatah can't do anything with or about Hamas and Gaza, and there's no peace process unless the Palestinians can agree on something (though it's all too truthful that both Fatah and Hamas are seeking the ultimate destruction of Israel and Hamas thinks Fatah is a sellout for allowing Israel to exist in a 2-state solution until some period in the future).

184 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:29:24pm

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

All UN Conferences are. Letty Cottin Pogrebin's account of the UN conferences on the status of women is goddamn hair-raising.

And was criticized roundly by the Gentile feminist world when it was published in Ms.

Durban.

185 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:29:40pm

re: #180 freetoken

The national positions are concluded for the day... but wait! The Chinese rep wants to say something before the gavel comes down on the day...

It is about... Taiwan. A few delegates briefly mentioned "Taiwan" earlier... apparently that offends the Chinese, who just stated that there is but one China.

Gotta love UN meetings...

More hot air is generated by the UN than by any other group on earth. Hot Air is a runner up.

186 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:30:09pm

OT: Veteran UK gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell is having to stand down as a parliamentary candidate because of brain injuries inflicted on him in separate incidents involving Robert Mugabe's bodyguards and Russian nazis :


“I was selected as the Green Party candidate for Oxford East in April 2007. A month later, I was badly beaten around the head by neo-Nazis during an attempted Gay Pride parade in Moscow.

See here:

[Link: www.petertatchell.net...]

“This exacerbated the brain damage caused when I was bashed unconscious by President Mugabe’s bodyguards in Brussels in 2001, after attempting to make a citizen’s arrest of the Zimbabwean leader on charges of torture.

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #174 SixDegrees

Who was it that said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"?

Abba Eban, I think.

188 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:30:16pm

re: #170 Charles

Again, please go read the links I posted. His "work" is so full of well documented errors and deliberate misstatements, he should not be considered an expert by anyone.

And by the way, that's really one link, to the same web site, home page and the Lomborg article.

189 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:30:31pm

re: #127 SixDegrees

...or Windows 7. Apparently, somewhere around a third of customers experience a total vapor lock about 70% of the way through installation, from which there is no recovery.

My BiL gave me a Win7 disc for a gift. I'm hesistating to install it, for that very reason.

190 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:30:45pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

I am reading your links Charles. I hope you read mine.

It appears that he got a fair and thought interview on NPR this week.

When I see that someone is deliberately promoting false claims, and writing books full of errors, I'm honestly not going to give much more time to that person.

Lomborg is one of the people I used to listen to when I was much less informed about climate change. Now I know that he's a kind of "soft" denier -- but no less of a denier.

191 filetandrelease  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:31:00pm

re: #155 Kewalo

I'm not a Floridian and don't know much about Crist. Would you mind explaining your objections to him? I'm really curious.

He is just another big spending, open boarder, don't drill RINO. And he is running against a conservative businessman, Rubio, who isn't perfect, but find a politician who is?

The ID debacle used to be of interest to me, but now that is way down the list of what I look for in a candidate. The day the Repulican party drops ID and reversing Roe vs Wade the will own Washington, but it may never happen.

192 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:31:24pm

re: #189 The Sanity Inspector

My BiL gave me a Win7 disc for a gift. I'm hesistating to install it, for that very reason.

They make nice coasters, I hear.

193 recusancy  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:32:16pm

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

From the "esteemed" Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty

"In March 2004, the DCSD stated that since its finding had been to acquit Lomborg of the charges of scientific dishonesty (although they had criticized his biased selection of data)..."

Even they thought he cherry picked data.

194 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:32:34pm

re: #192 SixDegrees

They make nice coasters, I hear.

I'm still going thru AOL discs for those.

195 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:32:37pm

re: #181 Charles

With Iran continuing to work on its missile tech and long range missiles, I'd say the totality of the evidence leans towards the validation of the Times story on the nuclear triggers. Iran is playing games with their nuclear program, and much of it remains out of the prying eyes of the IAEA so it's left to other methods to suss out what's really going on. Ahamdinejad has been busy exhorting the ramping up of their enrichment program at secret sites and other locations for years. It's all part of a puzzle that is the Iranian nuclear agenda.

196 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:32:37pm

re: #183 lawhawk

Well, they now have a President for Life in charge - the PLO gave Abbas an indefinite extension of his presidency. Of course, that's because Fatah can't do anything with or about Hamas and Gaza, and there's no peace process unless the Palestinians can agree on something (though it's all too truthful that both Fatah and Hamas are seeking the ultimate destruction of Israel and Hamas thinks Fatah is a sellout for allowing Israel to exist in a 2-state solution until some period in the future).

Abbas is refusing to resume "peace talks" until the PA is given all of the pre-1967 lands, including Jerusalem, as a declared state.

IOW: Give us everything we want now, and then we'll hold talks to discuss the surrender of the rest of Israel.

197 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:32:54pm

re: #190 Charles

When I see that someone is deliberately promoting false claims, and writing books full of errors, I'm honestly not going to give much more time to that person.

Lomborg is one of the people I used to listen to when I was much less informed about climate change. Now I know that he's a kind of "soft" denier -- but no less of a denier.

Well, I just heard about him, and I'll do my research and I'll form my opinions... that apologetic site you linked me to was compiled by a biologist named Kåre Fog.

I need to look into Mr. Fog before I even give the site any more of a read. I like to know my sources if I can.

But thanks for the info, it's always enjoyed.

198 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:33:38pm
199 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #193 recusancy

From the "esteemed" Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty

Even they thought he cherry picked data.

No comment yet. I just heard of this person this morning, I threw his name up here, and I am getting info (such as the links from Charles) about him, and I am looking into what people have to say. When and if I get a bigger picture, then I will offer a opinion or a comment to you. Ok?

200 Kewalo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:35:33pm

re: #191 filetandrelease

Thank you.

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:35:50pm

re: #196 Alouette

Abbas is refusing to resume "peace talks" until the PA is given all of the pre-1967 lands, including Jerusalem, as a declared state.

IOW: Give us everything we want now, and then we'll hold talks to discuss the surrender of the rest of Israel.

Gaza included?

202 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:36:58pm

re: #163 Locker

"Politicians can use fear to manipulate the public"

The experts are always the last to know.

203 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:37:02pm

re: #181 Charles

I'm very skeptical about "Iranian nuclear trigger" story in the London Times, by the way. Not because I have any doubt that Iran's working toward nuclear weapons, but because the Times has been caught several times promoting fake Iranian documents.

There was the 'Hitler Diaries' fiasco, of course. And later they became champions of Aids denialism for a while. For a paper with their reputation, they have a somewhat chequered history when it comes to factual accuracy.

204 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:37:05pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

Gaza included?

Not so much.

205 Kragar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:38:07pm

re: #203 Jimmah

There was the 'Hitler Diaries' fiasco, of course. And later they became champions of Aids denialism for a while. For a paper with their reputation, they have a somewhat chequered history when it comes to factual accuracy.

Got to be the first with the scoop. Facts can be verified later.

206 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:39:22pm

re: #203 Jimmah

There was the 'Hitler Diaries' fiasco, of course. And later they became champions of Aids denialism for a while. For a paper with their reputation, they have a somewhat chequered history when it comes to factual accuracy.

Two words: News Corporation

One name: Rupert Murdoch

207 Ben Hur  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:39:48pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Two words: News Corporation

One name: Rupert Murdoch

Ah.....

That explains it.

208 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:40:57pm

You knew the True Patriots would catch President Obama trying to subvert the Constitution again, didn't you?

Obama's Push for Copenhagen Deal Could Violate Constitution, Critics Say

President Obama's mission to save the planet from global warming could end up trampling on the U.S. Constitution, critics say.

When Obama arrives in Copenhagen Friday, he is hoping to cut a deal on a new global-warming agreement. Even though the conference is not likely to produce a legally binding deal, critics say if the president signs an international climate treaty pledging reductions in carbon emissions, he will violate the Constitution.

209 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:41:09pm
210 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:41:15pm

re: #184 Ben Hur

Durban.

I remember a political cartoon about it. "Welcome to the UN anti-racism summit, jewboy!"

211 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:41:17pm

re: #206 Gus 802

You took the words right out of my mouth. Sensationalism sells.

212 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:42:40pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

Gaza included?

Hi SFZ! Ah Gaza. I think that was the subject of the Palestinian rep looking to blame Israel for Global Warning.

"The greenhouses in Gaza were performing perfectly, and food was growing, while the Zionists had them. After turning them over to us, they then fired missiles into the atmosphere to cause warming - all to destroy our new greenhouses! Now they no longer work!"

Gee, it could be that. Or, it could be the fact that your people broke all the freakin' glass, then looted all the stuff inside.

(Okay, they really didn't say that. Oh crap! If they read this - they probably will.)

213 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:43:52pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Two words: News Corporation

One name: Rupert Murdoch

Indeed.

214 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:45:16pm

re: #208 freetoken

You knew the True Patriots would catch President Obama trying to subvert the Constitution again, didn't you?

Obama's Push for Copenhagen Deal Could Violate Constitution, Critics Say

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this. The President is free to sign whatever he likes - but his signature isn't sufficient to bind the US to any agreement. Such an action requires Senate ratification, and everyone know this. His signature, by itself, would be little more than a goodwill gesture with no legal standing, and as such Constitutional issues don't even arise as far as I can tell.

215 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:47:18pm
216 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:47:43pm

FTA:

"Libertarians for a Big Gay Government"

Now there's a group I could get behind, relatively speaking./

217 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:47:58pm

re: #214 SixDegrees

You're being much too rational. Stop that!

218 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:48:51pm

re: #214 SixDegrees

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this.

You've just summed up the past month's "news from the extremist fronts"...

219 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:51:35pm

OT - Scientists making important progress on cancer:

Scientists have unlocked the entire genetic code of two of the most common cancers - skin and lung - a move they say could revolutionise cancer care.

Not only will the cancer maps pave the way for blood tests to spot tumours far earlier, they will also yield new drug targets, say the Wellcome Trust team.

Scientists around the globe are now working to catalogue all the genes that go wrong in many types of human cancer.

The UK is looking at breast cancer, Japan at liver and India at mouth.

China is studying stomach cancer, and the US is looking at cancers of the brain, ovary and pancreas.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

220 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:53:07pm

re: #208 freetoken

You knew the True Patriots would catch President Obama trying to subvert the Constitution again, didn't you?

Obama's Push for Copenhagen Deal Could Violate Constitution, Critics Say

2/3rd vote from the Senate? Lets' see what about START I, or more recently Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). There are other examples.

221 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:55:28pm

re: #219 Jimmah

OT - Scientists making important progress on cancer:


[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

*sigh*...

222 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:56:47pm

LOL! The creationists probably ain't gonna find this as funny as I did! Guess they'll just have to deal with it:

Evolution Going Great, Reports Trilobite

"To be born during this, the Cambrian Explosion—why, I couldn't imagine a better period, really. It's all happening right now! I mean, if things keep going the way they're going, what with evolution taking off and everything, pretty soon we'll have huge, towering reptiles roaming across the earth."

"Can you imagine it? Reptiles!" the trilobite added. "I'm not even sure what those are!"

Now that's funny!

223 swamprat  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:56:54pm

A song I heard as a child. Full of dated references.

The John Birch Society.

224 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:57:12pm

re: #214 SixDegrees

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this.

The source was FoxNews... and I propose that the reasoning behind it was just to run the daily Obama-is-destroying-our-Constitution story for the tea party crowd.

Not only does the President have the job of negotiating treaties, in this particular case that is not even happening (to the chagrin of many.) The Copenhagen meeting is part of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change... in other words, it is just another UN meeting like the numerous others.

The US is of course part of the UN, and the UNFCCC was created down in Rio (remember when GHWB went down there?) If you look at the US nameplate at the meeting, it is black letters on a white background, unlike most countries' which are black with white lettering. This is because the US (and a few other countries) are there participating as part of UNFCCC, but not of the Kyoto Protocol treaty proper.

Furthermore, it has been made clear today that a real treaty will probably be put off until the next meeting (in Mexico City).

So the FoxNews story is just more right wing noise.

225 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:57:36pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Clinton never even gave Kyoto to the Senate to ratify because it had no chance of passage. Why did he choose that route? Well, because the Energy Information Administration (EIA) predicted losses to GDP of between 1.0% and 4.2% by 2010, reducing to between 0.5% and 2.0% by 2020. Copenhagen is doubling down on the emissions reductions, and at a time when the US economy is still reeling, another hit to GDP isn't to be countenanced by voters.

226 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:58:12pm

re: #191 filetandrelease

He is just another big spending, open boarder, don't drill RINO. And he is running against a conservative businessman, Rubio, who isn't perfect, but find a politician who is?

The ID debacle used to be of interest to me, but now that is way down the list of what I look for in a candidate. The day the Repulican party drops ID and reversing Roe vs Wade the will own Washington, but it may never happen.

Marc Rubio is a businessman? More like a self styled lobbyist after receiving his JD. He's an attorney. People throw out that businessman title too easily these days.

227 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 12:59:44pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Marc Rubio is a businessman? More like a self styled lobbyist after receiving his JD. He's an attorney. People throw out that businessman title too easily these days.

Rubio is a far right tea party candidate. If he succeeds in driving out Charlie Crist, it's going to be one more step on the GOP's path to complete irrelevance.

228 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:00:34pm

re: #227 Charles

Rubio is a far right tea party candidate. If he succeeds in driving out Charlie Crist, it's going to be one more step on the GOP's path to complete irrelevance.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...
//

229 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:01:08pm

re: #225 lawhawk

Clinton never even gave Kyoto to the Senate to ratify because it had no chance of passage. Why did he choose that route? Well, because the Energy Information Administration (EIA) predicted losses to GDP of between 1.0% and 4.2% by 2010, reducing to between 0.5% and 2.0% by 2020. Copenhagen is doubling down on the emissions reductions, and at a time when the US economy is still reeling, another hit to GDP isn't to be countenanced by voters.

Yes, and a lot of that opposition came from Democratic coal state senators. Also representatives. Continues to this day.

What impact would climate change have on the GDP in the long run? Unmitigated that is.

230 Summer Seale  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:01:51pm

re: #222 subsailor68

LOL! The creationists probably ain't gonna find this as funny as I did! Guess they'll just have to deal with it:

Evolution Going Great, Reports Trilobite

"To be born during this, the Cambrian Explosion—why, I couldn't imagine a better period, really. It's all happening right now! I mean, if things keep going the way they're going, what with evolution taking off and everything, pretty soon we'll have huge, towering reptiles roaming across the earth."

"Can you imagine it? Reptiles!" the trilobite added. "I'm not even sure what those are!"

Now that's funny!

Even better:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

231 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:02:11pm

re: #222 subsailor68

This one is hilarious! Sumerians look on in confusion as God creates world

232 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:02:43pm

re: #230 Summer

Great minds think alike I see!

233 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:03:29pm

re: #229 Gus 802

Yes, and a lot of that opposition came from Democratic coal state senators. Also representatives. Continues to this day.


The opposition was much more widespread than just coal state politicians. Wasn't the vote 95-0 before they even held the Kyoto meeting?

234 Summer Seale  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:04:08pm

re: #232 Irenicum

Great minds think alike I see!

Has to be one of the funniest ones I've ever read. =) And that's saying a lot. Absolutely brilliant. =)

235 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:04:24pm

Christmas tree baubles to tell story of warming Greenland ice-sheet:


Tiny orange balls made from Christmas tree baubles could shed new light on how Greenland's Ice Sheet will respond to a warming world.

A Bristol University-led team has shown how the 4cm spheres can go through water channels that run under glaciers and be recovered afterwards.

If equipped with sensors, these balls could gather data on how this meltwater is lubricating the movement of the ice.

Currently, scientists are unsure about the significance of this effect.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

236 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:04:32pm

re: #190 Charles

When I see that someone is deliberately promoting false claims, and writing books full of errors, I'm honestly not going to give much more time to that person.

Lomborg is one of the people I used to listen to when I was much less informed about climate change. Now I know that he's a kind of "soft" denier -- but no less of a denier.

Well, looking into this Lomborg guy, he seems to have many supporters. The only active detractor, the biologist named Kåre Fog, whose site you linked to, seems to be the only person I can find that has made some effort to deny Lomborg's positions.

This article seems to indicate that Lomborg has plenty of support with in the scientific community.

[Link: www.docstoc.com...]

I will continue to look into this, but so far, from what I can see about Kåre Fog, Kåre is basically a self-promoter and has very little support other than the numerous web pages he has place on line himself.

And considering that Lomborg has received good press in TIME, WSJ and NPR in just the last week, it appears that his opinion is at least respected, right or wrong.

Nope, I don't see Lomborg as being some sort of phony. Not in a long shot.

237 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:04:35pm

re: #228 rwdflynavy

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...
//

If you're on the edge of the Grand Canyon the first mile is straight down... //

238 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:04:46pm

re: #233 RogueOne

The opposition was much more widespread than just coal state politicians. Wasn't the vote 95-0 before they even held the Kyoto meeting?

Yep. 95-0. Just checked.

239 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:05:18pm

BTW, here is the current text of what the US is negotiating:

[Link: unfccc.int...]
(pdf)

Note the square brackets in the document. They are placed around text that is in dispute or which has not been settled. You will see that a great deal of the document is in brackets.

It doesn't seem that it could be completed in time for a signing Friday.

240 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:06:33pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Yep. 95-0. Just checked.

HA! that brain cell is still intact/.

241 subsailor68  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:07:13pm

re: #230 Summer

re: #231 Irenicum

Great minds do think alike, and an upding each for making me blow milk through my nose!

;-)

242 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:07:14pm

re: #240 RogueOne

HA! that brain cell is still intact/.

I'm still using my cortex this "morning."

243 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:07:38pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

Uh, no, he isn't respected in the climatology community at all. He's not even a climate scientist.

Try this link: Bjorn Lomborg.

If you want to believe he's a reputable expert on climate change, I can't stop you. But he isn't.

244 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:08:13pm

re: #225 lawhawk

Clinton never even gave Kyoto to the Senate to ratify because it had no chance of passage. Why did he choose that route? Well, because the Energy Information Administration (EIA) predicted losses to GDP of between 1.0% and 4.2% by 2010, reducing to between 0.5% and 2.0% by 2020. Copenhagen is doubling down on the emissions reductions, and at a time when the US economy is still reeling, another hit to GDP isn't to be countenanced by voters.

The Senate had voted on a proxy bill and the vote was something like 93 to 3 against Kyoto.

As for what the 17% emissions cut we are willing to sign up to will cost us, it is debatable.

We are already seeing a decline in emissions due to de-industrialization. Europe saw this 10 years ago and much of its Kyoto cuts were simply due to that and moving off of coal (not completely off coal, but a shift).

I will go find the links ...

245 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:08:37pm

re: #239 freetoken

BTW, here is the current text of what the US is negotiating:

[Link: unfccc.int...]
(pdf)

Note the square brackets in the document. They are placed around text that is in dispute or which has not been settled. You will see that a great deal of the document is in brackets.

It doesn't seem that it could be completed in time for a signing Friday.

This Friday?

246 Summer Seale  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:08:37pm

re: #241 subsailor68

Honestly, I'd love to see the reaction if Charles posts that. =)

247 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:08:49pm

More here: The Skeptical Environmentalist %P% Union of Concerned Scientists.

Lomborg’s book is seriously flawed and fails to meet basic standards of credible scientific analysis. The authors note how Lomborg consistently misuses, misrepresents or misinterprets data to greatly underestimate rates of species extinction, ignore evidence that billions of people lack access to clean water and sanitation, and minimize the extent and impacts of global warming due to the burning of fossil fuels and other human-caused emissions of heat-trapping gases. Time and again, these experts find that Lomborg’s assertions and analyses are marred by flawed logic, inappropriate use of statistics and hidden value judgments. He uncritically and selectively cites literature—often not peer-reviewed— that supports his assertions, while ignoring or misinterpreting scientific evidence that does not. His consistently flawed use of scientific data is, in Peter Gleick’s words “unexpected and disturbing in a statistician.

248 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:08:51pm

re: #239 freetoken

BTW, here is the current text of what the US is negotiating:

[Link: unfccc.int...]
(pdf)

Note the square brackets in the document. They are placed around text that is in dispute or which has not been settled. You will see that a great deal of the document is in brackets.

It doesn't seem that it could be completed in time for a signing Friday.

Epic Fail.

249 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:10:02pm

re: #231 Irenicum

This one is hilarious! Sumerians look on in confusion as God creates world

LOL! Now one of my favourite Onion stories.

250 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #243 Charles

Uh, no, he isn't respected in the climatology community at all. He's not even a climate scientist.

Try this link: Bjorn Lomborg.

If you want to believe he's a reputable expert on climate change, I can't stop you. But he isn't.

And Kåre Fog is a biologist. You consider him to be a reputable apologist for climate change? If you do, then it's the blind denying the blind I guess. Like I said, Lomborg has a lot of support among his peers in Denmark, that can't be denied.

I'm still looking.

251 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:11:57pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

And Kåre Fog is a biologist. You consider him to be a reputable apologist for climate change? If you do, then it's the blind denying the blind I guess. Like I said, Lomborg has a lot of support among his peers in Denmark, that can't be denied.

I'm still looking.

And I will continue to look right now. BB later.

252 morrisab  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:11:58pm

re: #157

About Bjorn Lomborg -- anyone tempted to believe he's a credible "expert" should read through the material on this website [snip]

Thank you for the links. I heard him interviewed on NPR on the way to work the other day and thought he did not sound very credible. I was also suspicious of the fact that the reporter paraphrased the rebuttal, so the rebuttal sounded weak. But until I read the comment I had forgotten I wanted to look him up (I believe I have lost brain cells with each child - thank goodness I only have two!).

253 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:12:10pm

US emissions falling. Cause - recession and a move to natural gas for some energy production. 81% of US carbon output is from energy consumption.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

254 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:12:45pm

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

You've got Christmas Mail!

255 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:13:10pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

You've got Christmas Mail!

I leaving for a few hours... I get it later, BB later... thanks.

256 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:14:09pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

And Kåre Fog is a biologist. You consider him to be a reputable apologist for climate change? If you do, then it's the blind denying the blind I guess. Like I said, Lomborg has a lot of support among his peers in Denmark, that can't be denied.

I'm still looking.

His debunking of Lomborg's work is very well documented. This isn't "apology," it's pointing out serious errors, the same ones that have been noted by other sources including the Union of Concerned Scientists.

As I said, go ahead and believe Lomborg is an "expert," if that's what you want to believe. I've linked to several places that show he isn't even remotely credible, and that he distorts and cherry-picks data. If you'd rather ignore those sources, it's your call. I won't be following you on that.

257 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:15:07pm

re: #249 Jimmah

Mine too. I would post that on my FB page, but I know it'd get me in trouble with some of my more conservative Christian friends. They would see it as an attack on biblical faith, when it's nothing of the sort. It's a great sarcastic barb directed at the idiocy of YEC. Two totally different things. But humor is a challenge for the less evolved.

258 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:16:35pm

Europe meeting Kyoto targets through "creative accounting"

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Much of the European progress comes from the UK moving from coal to gas and the idling of Soviet infrastructure with the demise of East Germany.

259 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:16:56pm

Oh Noes! Robert Welch is the real-life origin of the Strangelove rantings about fluoridated water! bwahahaha! I never knew that before.

And it's William Buckley cracking wise about it, of all people. Link for those who care - relevant paragraph is near the bottom.

“Put away in Alaska?” I [ed: Buckley] asked, mock-seriously. The wisecrack traced to Robert Welch’s expressed conviction, a year or so earlier, that the state of Alaska was being prepared to house anyone who doubted his doctrine that fluoridated water was a Communist-backed plot to weaken the minds of the American public.

How the hell am i going to resist quoting from the movie every time the JBS comes up now?

260 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:20:02pm

re: #259 Aceofwhat?

That's one reason I love that movie so much. Absolutely brilliant on so many levels.

261 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:20:27pm

re: #233 RogueOne

yup. got to add in the oil ones too ..........

262 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:21:25pm

re: #257 Irenicum

Mine too. I would post that on my FB page, but I know it'd get me in trouble with some of my more conservative Christian friends. They would see it as an attack on biblical faith, when it's nothing of the sort. It's a great sarcastic barb directed at the idiocy of YEC. Two totally different things. But humor is a challenge for the less evolved.

If that's the case you need better friends. My 3 best friends are a preacher, a church elder, and a cop. I'm an atheist dope smokin' hippie in their eyes but I couldn't ask for a better group of friends.

263 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:21:59pm

Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

264 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:23:57pm

re: #263 Charles

Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

Well, they're all out of the closet now.

265 Jaerik  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:25:54pm

re: #163 Locker

Awesome, thank you for the links. I expected everyone to look at my post and just slowly back away.

LGF has a pretty fantastic community. Glad I finally got the opportunity sign up.

266 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:26:07pm

re: #257 Irenicum

Mine too. I would post that on my FB page, but I know it'd get me in trouble with some of my more conservative Christian friends. They would see it as an attack on biblical faith, when it's nothing of the sort. It's a great sarcastic barb directed at the idiocy of YEC. Two totally different things. But humor is a challenge for the less evolved.

Absolutely - it's just pointing out how massively and hilariously creationism conflicts with what we know.

Dinner time again - later folks :)

267 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:28:47pm

re: #262 RogueOne

Thankfully I too have very cool and opened minded friends even among some of the more conservative Christian ones. But there are some who just buy the talking points so much that they can't see from inside the bubble.

268 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:29:10pm

re: #259 Aceofwhat?

Oh Noes! Robert Welch is the real-life origin of the Strangelove rantings about fluoridated water! bwahahaha! I never knew that before.

And it's William Buckley cracking wise about it, of all people. Link for those who care - relevant paragraph is near the bottom.

“Put away in Alaska?” I [ed: Buckley] asked, mock-seriously. The wisecrack traced to Robert Welch’s expressed conviction, a year or so earlier, that the state of Alaska was being prepared to house anyone who doubted his doctrine that fluoridated water was a Communist-backed plot to weaken the minds of the American public.

How the hell am i going to resist quoting from the movie every time the JBS comes up now?

Sorry to quote myself, but this article from Commentary brought to light an interesting point: what is a responsible party to do when a large sector of your party has gone to a place where you don't want to go?

You take them down. You don't join them in name only to get the votes...you don't leave their magazines laying around your desk...you don't let them shake hands on your behalf and follow them around DC...you.take.them.down. Palin - you listening? Bueller? Bueller?

Nom de Dieu, when Goldwater can be used as an example of how to pull away from right-wing crazies, we're in sorry shape.

269 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:30:09pm

re: #263 Charles

That just seems so right. Nothing surprises me.

270 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:32:14pm

re: #268 Aceofwhat?

I'm reading that article right now by WFB. It's striking how similar the situation is between then and now. Thanks for the link!

271 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:34:29pm

re: #263 Charles

So she was a conspiracy nut even back in Wasilla days. Wow.

272 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #270 Irenicum

I'm reading that article right now by WFB. It's striking how similar the situation is between then and now. Thanks for the link!

Yeah, one of the things i like about Buckley is in interviews, you can see how pained he was to realize that he was [for a time] on the wrong side of the civil rights bill...not that he opposed civil rights, but that he opposed the bill for reasons he later realized were insignificant in the face of the overwhelming necessity of the thing.

I have lots of respect for people who realize they were wrong and aren't afraid to say it frequently.

273 freetoken  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:37:48pm

re: #245 Gus 802

This Friday?

Yes, for them 36 hours...

Ain't going to happen.

The PM of Denmark (who is presiding over all of this) is supposed to have "consultations" all night on how to go forward with the text. Many nations are objecting to this because it means they will not know if the President of the conference will call them for consultation.

I just don't see how they can get a treaty out of this by Friday. Heck, at this speed a press release will be a challenge.

274 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:38:55pm

re: #273 freetoken

Yes, for them 36 hours...

Ain't going to happen.

The PM of Denmark (who is presiding over all of this) is supposed to have "consultations" all night on how to go forward with the text. Many nations are objecting to this because it means they will not know if the President of the conference will call them for consultation.

I just don't see how they can get a treaty out of this by Friday. Heck, at this speed a press release will be a challenge.

I wasn't expecting a treaty, to be honest, so I'm not surprised. I would be surprised if they actually did manage to hammer out an agreement.

275 filetandrelease  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:42:14pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Marc Rubio is a businessman? More like a self styled lobbyist after receiving his JD. He's an attorney. People throw out that businessman title too easily these days.

Sorry about that, you are right of course.

On the other hand, he did defeat an attempt by Crist to legalize gambling in FL, no small feat, something politicians aligned with shady characters have been attempting in FL for a long time.

The revitalization on the Republican party has begun. Rubio will be part of it. Those that have brought it to the precipice of irrelevancy are on their way out.

276 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:44:15pm

re: #273 freetoken

Yes, for them 36 hours...

Ain't going to happen.

The PM of Denmark (who is presiding over all of this) is supposed to have "consultations" all night on how to go forward with the text. Many nations are objecting to this because it means they will not know if the President of the conference will call them for consultation.

I just don't see how they can get a treaty out of this by Friday. Heck, at this speed a press release will be a challenge.

Won't happen at this rate. Regardless, in the future they should not organize the event to be so media centric. It is more like a convention and or PR event which is not conducive to serious negotiations.

It's not the end of the road of course because there's still Kyoto and other AGW mitigations coming into place nationally and locally as well as public and private.

277 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:44:29pm

re: #263 Charles

Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

Notice the date on the photo? Just a few days before the Couric interview.
Maybe this is why Palin dodged Couric's question about which magazines she reads.

278 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:44:52pm

re: #268 Aceofwhat?

That the Birchers are in resurgence immediately following Buckley's death is not a coincidence.

279 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:49:23pm

re: #130 recusancy

OT: Coburn is delaying Troop Funding

Wow.

Tom Coburn, Senator from Oklahoma.

Doctor and member of The Family. Spoke at yesterdays Tea Party rally.

Republican.

Could you imagine if a Democrat pulled this stunt?

280 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:49:58pm

re: #278 SixDegrees

The Birchers and the birthers: a harmonic convergence of right wing nuttery if ever I saw one.

281 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:54:24pm

re: #275 filetandrelease

"The revitalization on the Republican party has begun", he said ironically, noting the topic of the thread.

282 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:55:48pm

re: #280 Irenicum

Yes, but I'm having a disconnect resulting from your use of the perfectly lovely word "harmonic" in the same sentence as the B words.

Consider replacing with "dissonant". It's not the accepted phrase, but seems so much more expressive.....///

283 generalsparky  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:58:15pm

re: #279 Gus 802

Well, that is one way to spin Sen. Coburn asking for the rather large amendment to be read aloud.

Another way to spin it would be that Sen. Sanders, who authored the amendment, was wasting everyone's time and putting the DOD appropriations bill on hold by putting forth an amendment that had a snowball's chance in hell of being passed (per Sen. Durbin on C-SPAN. He didn't use those exact words of course, but the gist was there).

284 theheat  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09:18pm
Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

F'n'A'Skippy, another smoking gun, aka the money shot. I don't know which is more shocking - seeing Palin's reading a Birch publication, or the fact she may have been reading. This could explain why she was reluctant to share which publications she reads during one of her interviews. Apparently, she was holding back the good stuff, waiting to share it with the red meat brigade, fellow fundies, and tinfoil hat wearers.

A political skank and tireless idiot.

285 voirdire  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:22:46pm

Actually, the true image of what she's reading can be seen in the reflective image within her eyeglasses.

286 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:23:03pm

re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth

"The revitalization on the Republican party has begun", he said ironically, noting the topic of the thread.

Revitalization as in Ghost Dance, perhaps.

[Link: www.google.com...]

287 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:24:18pm

I thought she couldn't read...

288 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:29:48pm

re: #285 voirdire

She's reading a flash-bulb?

289 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:42:07pm

re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth

"The revitalization on the Republican party has begun", he said ironically, noting the topic of the thread.

Right -- and as he promotes a creationist candidate.

290 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:52:28pm

re: #277 Spare O'Lake

Notice the date on the photo? Just a few days before the Couric interview.
Maybe this is why Palin dodged Couric's question about which magazines she reads.

That, and the fact that she has nothing in her head.

291 Lidane  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:06:33pm

re: #263 Charles

Also note Sarah Palin’s apparent connection to the John Birch Society: The magazine on her desk in this photo is the official publication of the JBS.

No wonder the far right love her so much. She's a creationist, a birther, and and Bircher. It's like the wingnut trifecta of fail.

292 simoom  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:21:20pm

re: #130 recusancy

OT: Coburn is delaying Troop Funding

Sanders ended up pulling his amendment from the floor because of Coburn's procedural delaying tactic. He sounded pretty miffed:

293 Jack Fate  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:12:52pm

This post needs more Bob Dylan.
Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues. What is old is new again.

Your text to link...

294 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 8:42:31pm

re: #292 simoom

It was a pretty shitty thing to do.

295 jimbouie  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 8:29:30am

I agree 100% about the Birchers and the "liberty council".

296 jvic  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 9:49:46am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #4 Gus 802

William F. Buckley is no doubt rolling in his grave.

He's not rolling, he's seeing if he can break through the coffin lid.

What will National Review do? Will they speak out against the Birchers as founder Buckley did during the 1960s, or pretend not to notice them, or cave in with some gutless blather about inclusion and Big Tent?

297 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 9:56:54am

re: #277 Spare O'Lake

Notice the date on the photo? Just a few days before the Couric interview.
Maybe this is why Palin dodged Couric's question about which magazines she reads.

Er ... no. The photo was taken years ago, when she was a member of the Wasilla City Council. It was released during the campaign.

298 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #297 Charles

Er ... no. The photo was taken years ago, when she was a member of the Wasilla City Council. It was released during the campaign.


Thanks for checking that and correcting me. I made the mistake of going by the date on the photo, which I now realize from your comment was put on there later.


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