Video: Michele Bachmann’s Prophetic Visions

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Here’s Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Mars) at meetings of the Living Word Christian Center in 2006, telling the crowd that she receives prophetic visions and divine instructions directly from God, revealing that she got her law degree from the fundamentalist Oral Roberts University — and telling several outright lies about her political ambitions.

I give you: one of the heroes of the modern right wing.

Youtube Video

(Hat tip: Sharmuta.)

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284 comments

1 webevintage  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:04:48pm

I am constantly amazed that she is an elected official...that we pay her salary.

2 Bob Dillon  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:05:08pm

Another candidate for psych counseling.

3 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:05:40pm

Thank you for the hat tip, Charles.

What's really creepy, imo, is how some of these "visions" aren't even hers- they are her husband's and she accepts them without question- even saying that wives must be subservient to their husbands.

4 Nanook37  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:06:07pm

I can't wait for the Tea Party Convention in February that will be headlined by Bachmann and Palin - I can already imagine the stupid that will arise by having those two together....

5 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:06:26pm

I now have visions of Democrats holding power for the next twenty years.

6 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:06:44pm

What a sad, scared world she lives in.

7 djughurknot  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:07:04pm

Palin/Bachmann 2010.

/

8 Cathypop  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:07:29pm

re: #5 JasonA

I now have visions of Democrats holding power for the next twenty years.

I call that a nightmare.

9 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:07:42pm

I hope everyone watches the whole thing- this lady is a weirdo and a liar.

10 freetoken  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:07:44pm

I thought women were from Venus?

11 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:07:47pm

She went to Oral Roberts University? That explains a lot.

12 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:08:52pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

I had to shut it down after the first 40 seconds. Just way to creepy.

13 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:10:19pm

re: #12 Bubblehead II

I had to shut it down after the first 40 seconds. Just way to creepy.

Yeah- the whole "God told me to marry you even though I don't like you" thing is pretty creepy.

14 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:11:02pm

If only the high school students in this video could magically show up and heckle every speech she makes.

15 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:11:33pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

Yeah- the whole "God told me to marry you even though I don't like you" thing is pretty creepy.

Least she's not talking about her Argentinian soulmate...

16 djughurknot  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:11:45pm

uhhhh my head hurts after 2 minutes of this.

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:11:57pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

She went to Oral Roberts University? That explains a lot.

That surprised me too, and I thought the same thing. Now she's hooked up with Ron Paul- isn't that lovely?

18 Right Handed Neutrino  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:12:16pm

She's a lovable little fuzzball all right.

19 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:12:37pm

Well, isn't my face red! I completely misread the title of this post!!

Video: Michele Bachmann's Pathetic Visions

Silly, silly me.

Oh. Wait.

It works that way too!

20 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:12:38pm

I can't watch the whole thing, I just can't take it.

How can a person, with a straight face, admit to not using the brain that God gave her in order to think for herself, because she's waiting for "visions"?

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:12:49pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

She went to Oral Roberts University? That explains a lot.

Where they teach the law from a Biblical world view.

Which would be fine if she wanted to serve on a bais din, you know?

22 theheat  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:12:59pm

Godalkers like this make my face itch. Not only am I embarrassed at their shameless lying and fantasies, but I'm embarrassed for everyone sitting there, lapping up their verbal chum trail.

23 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:13:20pm

Anyone else remember those 80s bumperstickers that asked simply, "Is it weird enough for you yet?"
I would like to find someone with one of those, so I could scream at them, "YES! IT'S ENTIRELY FREAKIN' WEIRD ENOUGH FOR ME NOW, SO KNOCK IT OFF!"

24 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:15:24pm

re: #23 Shiplord Kirel

Anyone else remember those 80s bumperstickers that asked simply, "Is it weird enough for you yet?"
I would like to find someone with one of those, so I could scream at them, "YES! IT'S ENTIRELY FREAKIN' WEIRD ENOUGH FOR ME NOW, SO KNOCK IT OFF!"

You should do your screaming with your Texas accent.

25 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:15:54pm

Congrats Sharmuta! That is one crazy video. The Oral Roberts connection does explain a lot. As a Christian, this video just makes me cringe beyond belief.

26 jaunte  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:16:45pm

Crazy Train, off the rails.

27 bunnymud  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:17:16pm

Copenhagen is the tea party for the loony left

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

28 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:18:09pm

One would hope that the small piece of paper known as the US constitution would bar the merger between religion and politics in the US.
Guess hope is pretty futile at this point in time though.

29 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:18:23pm

The whole hyper Charismatic/Pentecostal Dominionist stream is seriously deranged and seriously dangerous. And, again, as a Christian here, seriously idolatrous. Nuts doesn't begin to describe it.

30 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:18:56pm

Where's the Turner Overdrive when you need them?

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:19:04pm

re: #25 Irenicum

Congrats Sharmuta! That is one crazy video. The Oral Roberts connection does explain a lot. As a Christian, this video just makes me cringe beyond belief.

I'm kind of glad to hear that. I'm often so confused when listening to things like this, about what is just cultural, and what is metaphorical, and what indicates that a person is absolutely batshit crazy.

32 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:20:00pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

Agree. This is capital BATSHIT.

33 albusteve  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:20:13pm

just imagine the possibilities the GOP has to choose from in 2012....(shiver)
what will their ticket look like if they make inroads next year?...success breeds success

34 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:20:25pm

OT - Jack Bauer is on the Naughty list

35 recusancy  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:22:30pm

And here's a Republican congressman outright admitting that he doesn't have a problem with the United States of America torturing.

36 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:23:34pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

The irony of this is that I just got done reading an absolutely fabulous essay by Tim Keller about the compatibility of Christian belief with evolutionary biology. I feel like I've experienced the spiritual bends. Thankfully, there are actual sane Christians.

37 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:24:29pm

re: #24 reine.de.tout

You should do your screaming with your Texas accent.

I can't scream any other way. My parents report that I learned to speak from my father, and especially from his habit of cursing with great originality and vehemence while he was driving. The first coherent words I could speak were alleged to be "big-ass truck" and "goddamned Arkansawyer." (My dad was of the opinion that all bad drivers were from Arkansas. Interestingly, he was a native of that esteemed state himself.)

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:25:24pm

re: #35 recusancy

And here's a Republican congressman outright admitting that he doesn't have a problem with the United States of America torturing.

Great. He and Alan Dershowitz can go into business together.

39 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:25:40pm

re: #37 Shiplord Kirel

Ha! Reminds me of the great scenes form the Christmas Story. I need to see that movie again. You'll put your eye out kid!

40 subsailor68  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:26:10pm

re: #37 Shiplord Kirel

I can't scream any other way. My parents report that I learned to speak from my father, and especially from his habit of cursing with great originality and vehemence while he was driving. The first coherent words I could speak were alleged to be "big-ass truck" and "goddamned Arkansawyer." (My dad was of the opinion that all bad drivers were from Arkansas. Interestingly, he was a native of that esteemed state himself.)

LOL! Had a friend whose father would get into rush-hour, stop and go traffic. He'd open the window and yell, "That's it lemmings, bunch up!"

41 darthstar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:26:31pm

Michele Bachmann gives 'batshit crazy' a bad name.

42 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:26:52pm

On the topic of the merger of fundamentalist Christianity and the US army, I would recommend everybody to read Hitchens latest in Vanity Fair.

James Madison was the co-author with Thomas Jefferson of the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, which became the basis of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Not accidentally the first clause of our Bill of Rights, this amendment unambiguously forbids any “establishment of religion” in or by these United States. In his “Detached Memoranda,” not published until after his death, Madison even wrote that the appointment of chaplains in the armed forces, and indeed in Congress, was “inconsistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principles of religious freedom.” He could never have foreseen a time when state-subsidized chaplains would be working to subvert the Constitution, and violating their sacred oath to uphold it. Let us be highly thankful that we have young soldiers and sailors and air-force personnel who, busy and devoted as they already are, show themselves brave enough to fight back on this front too.

The rest of the outright frightening article can be found here.

43 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:28:27pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm kind of glad to hear that. I'm often so confused when listening to things like this, about what is just cultural, and what is metaphorical, and what indicates that a person is absolutely batshit crazy.

I don't think it's outside of mainstream Christianity (or other religions, for that matter) to think that one has felt a Divine presence at some point in their life (an angel was watching over me/us- for example), or even a moment of Divine inspiration, but it's usually limited. When you start getting into "visions" and other events that sound more hallucinogenic, then we start leaving the realm of the spiritual and start reaching for the unbalanced.

44 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:28:56pm

Remember, gang, this crazy woman is one of the 535 people who have the power to declare war, create or abolish federal agencies, levy taxes, compel testimony, and change the law of the land.

45 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:32:24pm

More crazy than you can shake a stick at.......

Conspiracy Theory Global Warming Part 1 of 6 with Jesse Ventura

46 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:32:40pm

re: #44 Shiplord Kirel

Remember, gang, this crazy woman is one of the 535 people who have the power to declare war, create or abolish federal agencies, levy taxes, compel testimony, and change the law of the land.

And she has the audacity to complain that Obama wants to change America into something radical. If she and her minions had their way America would more resemble a fascist theocracy than anything else.

47 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:33:24pm

re: #42 HAL2010

Hitchens is a religious bigot.

48 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:33:52pm

re: #42 HAL2010

The chaplaincy was always a mainstay of the American Civil Religion (ACR) up to the sixties. The chaplains typically came from the mainline denominations and were generally moderate to liberal in their beliefs. But during the Vietnam War the liberal bent of the mainline meant they stop becoming chaplains. Soon afterward, that's when w much greater influx of evangelical chaplains started coming into the system. They were more comfortable with the military because they were culturally conservative, just as the military typically is. They become the dominant voice in the chaplaincy ever since. As a Christian, I don't feel comfortable at all in having Christian clergy in that role, even though I see war as a sad necessity in a world with evil. The Kingdom of God and kingdoms of this world should never be confused.

49 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:34:36pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Boy, Minnesota knows how to pick em don't they?

50 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:34:52pm

"The Lord gave me a vision, which is odd"

Lol

51 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:35:51pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

More crazy than you can shake a stick at...

Conspiracy Theory Global Warming Part 1 of 6 with Jesse Ventura


"I ain't got time to read."

52 Doggiewoggie  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:36:29pm

That's funny, 'cause the Lord sent me a similar vision about marriage, but Michelle Bachmann would like to prevent that.

53 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:36:46pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Very well put Sharmuta. I firmly believe in the supernatural realm, yet I am also a rational human being who lives out my daily life not expecting voices to tell which side to butter my bread on.

54 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:37:13pm

re: #51 JasonA

"I ain't got time to read."

lol

55 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:04pm

Well, speaking of religion. I gotta write more religious epistemology papers. See y'all later!

56 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:11pm

re: #47 rwdflynavy

Hitchens is a religious bigot.

Yes he is. He'll even go so far as to say we shouldn't have any of it.

However, he won't be receiving instructions to do things from some invisible authority which may or may not include apocalyptic predictions of the world.

That much, he won't do.

He may be a drunk, he may be a loud mouth, he may be irritable, rude, and insensitive others at times, but he's still entirely his own man.

I'm not so certain that is the case with a lot of the "I talk to God" crowd.

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:14pm

re: #46 HAL2010

And she has the audacity to complain that Obama wants to change America into something radical. If she and her minions had their way America would more resemble a fascist theocracy than anything else.

They don't mind radical, they just want their radical.

58 freetoken  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

"Noel Sheppard"?

Hah!

59 Locker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:20pm

OT: Man... it's NOT a good day when a friend who also happens to work for you doesn't show up for work, then calls about 10:30 saying he just got out of jail.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:22pm

So umm really guys... How can anyone take the GOP seriously if this is their voice?

On a biblical note, the penalty for being a false prophet - and there is a test for it, is stoning.

The test is really practical too. If the prophet predicts a blessing at a specific time and it does not come to pass, they are false.

If a prophet is not of the highest moral character and can stand to see injustice, they are false.

If a prophet does not care for the weak, the poor, the widow and the orphan, they are false.

Ohh and if the prophet is a habitual liar they are false too :)

I'm not bringing that because of a need to wax religious, but even religion has its sanity checks. Look at this woman. Do you really think that God is telling her to deny science and prostitute herself for the insurance industry? Do you really think that God wants the planet to cook due to AGW and hopes her message of ignorance spreads?

Do you think that God loves all his children or just the rich white ones?

So the very short form of it is - if we are going to go biblical let me make it clear:

1. Being a false prophet is a stonable offence.

2. Robbing those you are sworn to protect and defend is defined by Torah law as evil. (Uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan. So how exactly does she propose to get people (particularly poor people) adequate health care?).

3. Leading those whom you are supposed to protect and defend to a bad fate is defined as evil. (Do not put a stumbling block before the blind. AGW will cause catastrophe. She should know better.)

4. Doing so by perverting the Name is evil. (Do not carry the Lord's name in vain. The real meaning isn't don't cuss, it is do not do something evil and claim you are doing it in the name of God.).

So the more these hypocrites pound their bibles, the more I will point out all of those really hippy things the bible says. The good stuff about being good to each other and that giving is important, and that charity is a mitzvah and that you are expected to be honest and sincere.

Here is a little Isaiah for the lady:

Though you pray at length,
I will not listen.
Your hands are stained with crime —

16 Wash yourselves clean;
Put your evil doings
Away from My sight.
Cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do good.
Devote yourselves to justice;
Aid the wronged.
Uphold the rights of the orphan;
Defend the cause of the widow.

18 "Come, let us reach an understanding,
--declares the Lord--

61 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:38:38pm

re: #23 Shiplord Kirel

Anyone else remember those 80s bumperstickers that asked simply, "Is it weird enough for you yet?"
I would like to find someone with one of those, so I could scream at them, "YES! IT'S ENTIRELY FREAKIN' WEIRD ENOUGH FOR ME NOW, SO KNOCK IT OFF!"

Remember the "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty"? stickers? Once in the Little Five Points area of Atlanta (the hippie ward) I saw a car with that sticker. It had been edited with scissors so that it read "Practice random and senseless acts".

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:39:00pm

re: #49 Irenicum

Boy, Minnesota knows how to pick em don't they?

Minnesotans are oddly quirky for such solid middle-American folks. Strong opinions.

63 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:39:15pm

re: #56 Summer

Yes he is. He'll even go so far as to say we shouldn't have any of it.

However, he won't be receiving instructions to do things from some invisible authority which may or may not include apocalyptic predictions of the world.

That much, he won't do.

He may be a drunk, he may be a loud mouth, he may be irritable, rude, and insensitive others at times, but he's still entirely his own man.

I'm not so certain that is the case with a lot of the "I talk to God" crowd.

Yep, I think he should be treated the same way we would treat a racist. Shunned.

64 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:40:11pm

re: #61 The Sanity Inspector

Remember the "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty"? stickers? Once in the Little Five Points area of Atlanta (the hippie ward) I saw a car with that sticker. It had been edited with scissors so that it read "Practice random and senseless acts".

Or the answer to "Visualize World Peace," "Visualize Taking a Bath and Getting a Job!"

65 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:41:24pm

re: #47 rwdflynavy

Hitchens is a religious bigot.

What part of the article do you find objectionable?

66 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:42:08pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

They don't mind radical, they just want their radical.

They may be bastards, but they're our bastards!

67 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:42:31pm

re: #65 HAL2010

What part of the article do you find objectionable?

I read the article. He sees absolutely no good in any religion. He is a bigot.

68 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #37 Shiplord Kirel

I can't scream any other way. My parents report that I learned to speak from my father, and especially from his habit of cursing with great originality and vehemence while he was driving. The first coherent words I could speak were alleged to be "big-ass truck" and "goddamned Arkansawyer." (My dad was of the opinion that all bad drivers were from Arkansas. Interestingly, he was a native of that esteemed state himself.)

hahaha! Neither expression surprises me, nor the fact that they were your first coherent words. LOL.
The Roi's family is from Arkansas, tho his parents moved here and he grew up here.

69 nevertires  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:43:56pm

Okay - I made it the whole 7+ minutes. That seriously hurts my head.

Submit to your husband? No fun there - I like the occasionally adversarial give and take.

Calls from God? Must be those pesky amalgam fillings picking up some errant transmissions.

70 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:44:14pm

re: #67 rwdflynavy

I read the article. He sees absolutely no good in any religion. He is a bigot.

What part of the article did you find objectionable?

He is pointing towards a very, very serious problem.

71 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:45:08pm

re: #59 Locker

OT: Man... it's NOT a good day when a friend who also happens to work for you doesn't show up for work, then calls about 10:30 saying he just got out of jail.

geez.
At least he called you.
We had an employee once disappeared for an entire month, no one knew where he was or what happened to him.
He was in jail.

72 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:45:25pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

Just to continue.. let's look at that hippy Isaiah some more:

21 Alas, she has become a harlot,
The faithful city
That was filled with justice,
Where righteousness dwelt —
But now murderers.

22 Your silver has turned to dross;
Your wine is cut with water.

23 Your rulers are rogues
And cronies of thieves,
Every one avid for presents
And greedy for gifts;
They do not judge the case of the orphan,
And the widow's cause never reaches them.

In other words the corruption is rampant. Moneyed interests keep the just grievances of needy people from being heard.

Does that sound like AGW to you? It does to me.

Does that sound like putting the "rights" of your corporate sponsor in the insurance industry over the health needs of Americans? It does to me.

Does that sound like never ever wanting any program designed to lift people out of poverty or ignorance? It does to me.

Just saying, for people who love to beat their bibles, the GOP would sure hate what is actually in it. I suppose that is why conservapedia is so busy redefining it, and doing away with all those hippy ideas about social justice, moral responsibility and need to fear heaven more than loving earthly things....

73 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:46:11pm

re: #70 HAL2010

What part of the article did you find objectionable?

He is pointing towards a very, very serious problem.

He implies a movement by the top brass to give religion (Protestant fundamentalism specifically) control over our military. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:46:16pm

re: #50 Bagua

"The Lord gave me a vision, which is odd"

Lol

That sounds like the first line of the Book of Michelle.

I wonder what her children are named. Hosea's were "Lo-Ruchamah", and "Lo-Ammi", "No compassion", and "Not my people".

Will Michelle's be "Lo-briut"? "Lo-Obama"?

75 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:46:59pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

I don't think it's outside of mainstream Christianity (or other religions, for that matter) to think that one has felt a Divine presence at some point in their life (an angel was watching over me/us- for example), or even a moment of Divine inspiration, but it's usually limited. When you start getting into "visions" and other events that sound more hallucinogenic, then we start leaving the realm of the spiritual and start reaching for the unbalanced.

It's not that hard to produce visions. While using hard drugs is usually politically unpopular, the use of sleep and food deprivation has been religiously approved since the early anchorites. Note her references to "prayer and fasting".

77 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:47:27pm

re: #61 The Sanity Inspector

Remember the "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty"? stickers? Once in the Little Five Points area of Atlanta (the hippie ward) I saw a car with that sticker. It had been edited with scissors so that it read "Practice random and senseless acts".

Heh. I used to have a telecasterguitar that had just the sticker with the 'senseless acts of beauty' snipped out, and acts crossed out and axe markered in.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:47:45pm

re: #52 Doggiewoggie

That's funny, 'cause the Lord sent me a similar vision about marriage, but Michelle Bachmann would like to prevent that.

You liked it, but you couldn't put a ring on it? Yeah. Michelle would say that your message must have been in error.

79 Locker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

geez.
At least he called you.
We had an employee once disappeared for an entire month, no one knew where he was or what happened to him.
He was in jail.

Yea he called and I had to go pick him up. He was walking 15 miles to work, just to get a ride back to his car.

80 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:49:26pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

Yeah- the whole "God told me to marry you even though I don't like you" thing is pretty creepy.

Nu, so God is a great "shadchan".

81 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:49:38pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

So umm really guys... How can anyone take the GOP seriously if this is their voice?
[...]

This nutter is not the voice of the GOP, she is one of many voices.

Also, as much as I too find this amusing, a lot of religious Christian people do speak in terms of "the Lord led me to do such and such", it is not really fair to judge them from a Jewish perspective where the beliefs and ways of speaking are different.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:49:41pm

re: #64 Mad Al-Jaffee

Or the answer to "Visualize World Peace," "Visualize Taking a Bath and Getting a Job!"

My husband took a bath just last night, and if there is a job going, I will gladly shove a hippie out of the way to get it for him.

83 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:49:54pm

re: #80 John Neverbend

Nu, so God is a great "shadchan".

Have I got a girl for you!

84 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:50:45pm

re: #75 Decatur Deb

It's not that hard to produce visions. While using hard drugs is usually politically unpopular, the use of sleep and food deprivation has been religiously approved since the early anchorites. Note her references to "prayer and fasting".

I was thinking of the fasting a little while ago, because my tummy grumbled- lol. But it's a great point- when your body is lacking nutrients, you can get lightheaded. And sleep deprivation is well known. These are obviously extremes that most people don't engage in to make major life decisions. I think it is important to point this out about Bachmann, because it's a fair question to ask if her visions are affecting her ability to do her job.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:51:56pm

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

And while we are discussing AGW and the hippy Isaiah:

29 "You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.

30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.

31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire."

86 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:52:15pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

So umm really guys... How can anyone take the GOP seriously if this is their voice?

On a biblical note, the penalty for being a false prophet - and there is a test for it, is stoning.

The test is really practical too. If the prophet predicts a blessing at a specific time and it does not come to pass, they are false.

If a prophet is not of the highest moral character and can stand to see injustice, they are false.

If a prophet does not care for the weak, the poor, the widow and the orphan, they are false.

Ohh and if the prophet is a habitual liar they are false too :)

I'm not bringing that because of a need to wax religious, but even religion has its sanity checks. Look at this woman. Do you really think that God is telling her to deny science and prostitute herself for the insurance industry? Do you really think that God wants the planet to cook due to AGW and hopes her message of ignorance spreads?

Do you think that God loves all his children or just the rich white ones?

So the very short form of it is - if we are going to go biblical let me make it clear:

1. Being a false prophet is a stonable offence.

2. Robbing those you are sworn to protect and defend is defined by Torah law as evil. (Uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan. So how exactly does she propose to get people (particularly poor people) adequate health care?).

3. Leading those whom you are supposed to protect and defend to a bad fate is defined as evil. (Do not put a stumbling block before the blind. AGW will cause catastrophe. She should know better.)

4. Doing so by perverting the Name is evil. (Do not carry the Lord's name in vain. The real meaning isn't don't cuss, it is do not do something evil and claim you are doing it in the name of God.).

So the more these hypocrites pound their bibles, the more I will point out all of those really hippy things the bible says. The good stuff about being good to each other and that giving is important, and that charity is a mitzvah and that you are expected to be honest and sincere.

Here is a little Isaiah for the lady:

Though you pray at length,
I will not listen.
Your hands are stained with crime —

16 Wash yourselves clean;
Put your evil doings
Away from My sight.
Cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do good.
Devote yourselves to justice;
Aid the wronged.
Uphold the rights of the orphan;
Defend the cause of the widow.

18 "Come, let us reach an understanding,
--declares the Lord--

Thank God this is incorporated into Christianity. Would to God people acted on it. And blessings on Judaism which keeps the memory of lessons and rules that ought not be forgotten, alive.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:52:17pm

I have an update on The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus

Will have a limited release on Christmas day. It's probably going to be a very limited release, there's almost to advertising or publicity for it.
Directed by Terry gilliam, Heath Ledger's last movie. Johny Depp, Tom Waits. Looks really good.

88 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:52:26pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

Yeah- the whole "God told me to marry you even though I don't like you" thing is pretty creepy.

Reminds me of my bumper sticker:

Jesus Loves you
everyone else thinks you're an asshole

89 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:52:32pm
90 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:53:05pm

re: #88 Bagua

Reminds me of my bumper sticker:

Jesus Loves you
everyone else thinks you're an asshole

Saw one yesterday:

Jesus Loves You.
But I'm his favorite.

91 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:53:26pm

Is there anything that God didn't tell Michele Bachmann to do?

92 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:54:14pm

re: #91 Gus 802

Is there anything that God didn't tell Michele Bachmann to do?

Resign?

93 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:54:49pm

re: #59 Locker

OT: Man... it's NOT a good day when a friend who also happens to work for you doesn't show up for work, then calls about 10:30 saying he just got out of jail.

At least he didn't hit you up for bail money. Did he?

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:55:05pm

re: #75 Decatur Deb

It's not that hard to produce visions. While using hard drugs is usually politically unpopular, the use of sleep and food deprivation has been religiously approved since the early anchorites. Note her references to "prayer and fasting".

A good friend of mine, a very devout pagan, went through a period of time when she was put on very heavy doses of prednisone. She refers to periods of communing directly with God, and periods when she was just hallucinating--and she likes to add, "and yes, there is distinct difference between the two."

I know some early Christian communities used amanitas.

95 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

All it takes is a sweet book deal.

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:55:38pm

re: #81 Bagua

This nutter is not the voice of the GOP, she is one of many voices.

Also, as much as I too find this amusing, a lot of religious Christian people do speak in terms of "the Lord led me to do such and such", it is not really fair to judge them from a Jewish perspective where the beliefs and ways of speaking are different.

Oh, I am not going on about the God led me part. I don't mind someone thinking that God led them to their mate. That is not the point of the what I wrote at all.

The point, which I believe most Christians would clearly agree with, is that God gets really cranky when we lie in His name and abuse our positions to hurt and mislead others.

At the end of the day, sorry... The modern GOP sort of every rich person for themselves attitude that denies facts in order to squeeze profits from people that are being led to their dooms, is not something that God would like.

What they are doing is akin to swearing to someone that they will take them safely on a caravan, charging them for it, and knowing that murderers lie in wait.

This is an actual case that comes up in Talmud. I am very confident that Christians would take the same dim view of it we do.

97 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:55:47pm
98 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:56:02pm

re: #80 John Neverbend

Nu, so God is a great "shadchan".

Was it Akiva who told the Roman matron that since creating the world, God has been making matches?

99 Locker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:56:18pm

re: #93 The Sanity Inspector

At least he didn't hit you up for bail money. Did he?

He didn't have to post but I would have done what I could, had he asked. Bonded of course.

100 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:56:51pm

re: #63 rwdflynavy

Yep, I think he should be treated the same way we would treat a racist. Shunned.

I'm not exactly why you think this should be so.

He hasn't called for legislation to prevent two people who love each other from marrying together.

He hasn't called for legislation to teach anti-Theology in the classroom.

He hasn't called for legislation to prevent women from making their own decisions about their own bodies.

He hasn't condemned victims of AIDS as being morally corrupt.

He also hasn't told anyone the greatest fucking conceitthat they would BURN IN ETERNAL TORTURE for not thinking the way he does.

So why you think he should be shunned is beyond me.

101 jaunte  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:56:53pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

geez.
At least he called you.
We had an employee once disappeared for an entire month, no one knew where he was or what happened to him.
He was in jail.

I had one once who disappeared for a weekend, went off his meds, and put $50,000 on the company AmEx in a Louisville topless club.
At least he wasn't in jail.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:57:18pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I was thinking of the fasting a little while ago, because my tummy grumbled- lol. But it's a great point- when your body is lacking nutrients, you can get lightheaded. And sleep deprivation is well known. These are obviously extremes that most people don't engage in to make major life decisions. I think it is important to point this out about Bachmann, because it's a fair question to ask if her visions are affecting her ability to do her job.

Prayer and fasting is reasonable. Telling a huge group of people that God made you marry a man you didn't want to marry, and go to law school, seems less so.

103 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:58:41pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

Resign?

I think he told her enough to make up a sort of post-apocryphal book, the book of Michelle. Mind you, "And the Lord said, go forth and study tax law," doesn't have quite the same "zing" as "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee."

104 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:59:07pm

re: #101 jaunte

I met a guy one night, talked for awhile, and he asked for my phone number, so I gave it to him. A few nights later he gave me call... from jail. Needless to say- I didn't accept the call.

105 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:59:50pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

I met a guy one night, talked for awhile, and he asked for my phone number, so I gave it to him. A few nights later he gave me call... from jail. Needless to say- I didn't accept the call.

Yeah, sorry about that. Won't happen again. :)

106 jaunte  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:59:55pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

That was a good decision, I think.

107 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:00:22pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Was it Akiva who told the Roman matron that since creating the world, God has been making matches?

Rabbi Yosi.

108 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:01:00pm

Personally, telling me God told you to do anything has never been a key component to winning my trust or swaying my opinion.

109 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:01:16pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

He had what most men lack - the ability to plan ahead. I think you lost a good one there.

:0 )

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:01:30pm

re: #107 John Neverbend

Rabbi Yosi.

:) Good for you!

111 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Visually stunning. Might have to check that out if it's playing in my area.

Then again, the next movie I can't wait to see in theaters is Iron Man 2.

112 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:02:10pm

re: #106 jaunte

That was a good decision, I think.

Me too.

113 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:02:23pm

re: #42 HAL2010

On the topic of the merger of fundamentalist Christianity and the US army, I would recommend everybody to read Hitchens latest in Vanity Fair.

The rest of the outright frightening article can be found here.

Regarding a certain Army general endorsing said book this was something I was not aware of. It completely changes my view of said general.

114 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #100 Summer

I'm not exactly why you think this should be so.

He hasn't called for legislation to prevent two people who love each other from marrying together.

He hasn't called for legislation to teach anti-Theology in the classroom.

He hasn't called for legislation to prevent women from making their own decisions about their own bodies.

He hasn't condemned victims of AIDS as being morally corrupt.

He also hasn't told anyone the greatest fucking conceitthat they would BURN IN ETERNAL TORTURE for not thinking the way he does.

So why you think he should be shunned is beyond me.

Looks like you have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder about organized religion.

He preaches that those who believe in a higher power are deluded and that religion has only caused harm in our world. That is incredibly insulting to those who do believe in something more than we can see. He is a bigot.

"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

115 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #111 lawhawk

Visually stunning. Might have to check that out if it's playing in my area.

Then again, the next movie I can't wait to see in theaters is Iron Man 2.

I'm kind of interested in the remake of The Crazies.

116 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:02:53pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Regarding a certain Army general endorsing said book this was something I was not aware of. It completely changes my view of said general.

Puts things in a different light.

117 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:03:27pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

:) Good for you!

Not really, I looked it up. Mind you, knowing where to look was half the battle. I think I heard the story during the Rabbi's drasha at my own wedding, but I'd couldn't remember the attribution.

118 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:03:31pm

re: #111 lawhawk

It does look amazing and a terrific cast. There's a small art theater showing it here in Portland. For some reason he couldn't get a distribution deal for the movie. Maybe it sucks but I'll go out and see it anyways.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:04:48pm

re: #107 John Neverbend

Rabbi Yosi.

Ah, thanks. Those Roman matrons, they got around.

120 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:05:02pm

re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote

[...]

At the end of the day, sorry... The modern GOP sort of every rich person for themselves attitude that denies facts in order to squeeze profits from people that are being led to their dooms, is not something that God would like.

[...]

Otherwise agree, but when you make statements about what "God would like" you sound just like Bachmann.

121 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:05:34pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personally, telling me God told you to do anything has never been a key component to winning my trust or swaying my opinion.

And if the Dauphin had listened to you the English goddams would still run France.

122 Locker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:07:00pm

re: #114 rwdflynavy

Looks like you have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder about organized religion.

He preaches that those who believe in a higher power are deluded and that religion has only caused harm in our world. That is incredibly insulting to those who do believe in something more than we can see. He is a bigot.

"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

So there isn't any way to think people who believe in a higher power are deluded without being a bigot or incredibly insulting? Is it insulting and bigoted when religious folks think I'm deluded for not believing their dogma?

123 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:07:21pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Where they teach the law from a Biblical world view.

Which would be fine if she wanted to serve on a bais din, you know?

Somehow, I can't see Michele Bachmann making good halachic rulings.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:07:41pm

re: #121 Decatur Deb

And if the Dauphin had listened to you the English goddams would still run France.

I have never understood why God would bother to intervene on France's behalf during the Hundred Years' war. Seriously. It's always been the breaking-down point of my interest in the Jeanne story. She's such a compelling figure, but who the hell cares if the English run France or not?

125 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:08:13pm

re: #120 Bagua

"Just like"-- you sure you want to stand by that?

Is every religious person who thinks that they have a conception of God and what God approves and disapproves of "just like" Bachmann?

126 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:08:28pm

re: #103 John Neverbend

I think he told her enough to make up a sort of post-apocryphal book, the book of Michelle. Mind you, "And the Lord said, go forth and study tax law," doesn't have quite the same "zing" as "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee."

Lech Lecha!(for the GOP)

GO forth and study tax law... for public works are evil in my sight. Go forth and study tax law for demanding that people have a social responsibility to their society is evil in my sight. Indeed that is why I blessed Cain when he rightfully asked is he was his brothers keeper, for indeed he is not. If Able were stronger he would have won.

Go forth and study tax law and becomest thou a politician, for the sheep are stupid and thou should profit from them.

Go forth and remember that I am white as snow literally means I have a glowing white bottom.

Go forth and deny science. Man was never meant to better himself through reason.

Go forth and remind people that giving charity is a sin. I made those people poor to test them. If they were worthy, they would find employment. And do not ask why those who inherited great wealth without earning it are more worthy. That is my reward to them for having the sense to be born rich.

127 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:08:33pm

Wonder how long until this guy gets killed.

Muslim televangelist takes his message to millions

128 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:09:01pm

If I told you my dog told me to build a house you would think me crazy. And you'd be right. I don't have a dog.

And with that I must take my leave.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:10:06pm

re: #123 John Neverbend

Somehow, I can't see Michele Bachmann making good halachic rulings.

You may be right. Also, any group that would let a woman poskenet would be far too liberal for her taste.

130 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:10:17pm

re: #120 Bagua

Otherwise agree, but when you make statements about what "God would like" you sound just like Bachmann.

Not really. I am making a consistent statement of what the faith actually says.

If you don't believe in God you don't have too. That's all good. However, if she is going to bang on that particular book, it makes it pretty clear that God would not be really pleased with a lot of her little planks.

131 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:11:03pm

re: #122 Locker

So there isn't any way to think people who believe in a higher power are deluded without being a bigot or incredibly insulting?

So far you've done a pretty poor job.

132 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:12:17pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Shocked me though to see Shakespeare paint her so harshly. No war like a hundred years war.

133 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:12:21pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

I have never understood why God would bother to intervene on France's behalf during the Hundred Years' war.

Well, I do know that God fought for England during the battle of Agincourt. Henry says so in Act IV, Scene VIII of Henry V.

134 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:12:32pm

re: #121 Decatur Deb

And if the Dauphin had listened to you the English goddams would still run France.

The fact it cemented his hold on the throne had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.

135 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:14:26pm

re: #130 LudwigVanQuixote

Not really. I am making a consistent statement of what the faith actually says.

If you don't believe in God you don't have too. That's all good. However, if she is going to bang on that particular book, it makes it pretty clear that God would not be really pleased with a lot of her little planks.

You said:

The point, which I believe most Christians would clearly agree with, is that God gets really cranky when we lie in His name and abuse our positions to hurt and mislead others.

At the end of the day, sorry... The modern GOP sort of every rich person for themselves attitude that denies facts in order to squeeze profits from people that are being led to their dooms, is not something that God would like.

When you start pontificating as to what offends God and what God likes, this very much sounds like the evangelists who claim to also speak for God. Like you, they cite scripture to back up their claims.

136 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:14:53pm

re: #100 Summer

I generally admire him, but I have to do him the grace of overlooking things like his hostile fixation on Mother Teresa. The next time I hear about any organization Hitch belongs to serving the poorest of the poor, will be the first time.

137 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:15:30pm

bbl

138 Nadnerb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:15:40pm

If she has had these visions, then I wonder why she does not keep them to herself. Anyone who uses this typoe of thing in public, to a group of believers, WHILE HOLDING ELECTED OFFICE should not be trusted. I would be taken aback if a plumber came to my house and began telling me about his beliefs. It is absolutely shameful that she does this and if she had any integrity she'd keep this kind of thing private. She looks like she's just pandering and patronizing, but I think she's full-tilt behind these visions. Full-tilt-Robin-Williams-bozo.

139 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:16:15pm
140 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:16:23pm

re: #135 Bagua

And when you fixate about what is clearly not the point, you just send the discussion into a total tangent.

Right... if she had not banged her bible, I would not discuss what is actually in it to point out what a hypocrite she is. And would you believe that the Bible really does talk a lot about God and what makes Him cranky?

Honest, it does....

141 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:16:48pm

re: #135 Bagua

Do you think that Orthodox Jews, who believe that god wants them to obey certain dietary restrictions, are just like Bachmann? Do you think that Orthodox Jews, who think god is angered when Jews violate his Law, are just like Bachmann?

142 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:16:49pm

re: #116 HAL2010

Puts things in a different light.

If you have the time watch this: True Believers. It's from the PBS series Carrier and this episode touches on "faith" aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier.

143 bratwurst  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:17:36pm

re: #136 The Sanity Inspector

I generally admire him, but I have to do him the grace of overlooking things like his hostile fixation on Mother Teresa. The next time I hear about any organization Hitch belongs to serving the poorest of the poor, will be the first time.

I have to agree. His fixation on slaughtering perceived sacred cows takes something away from his body of work.

144 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:17:41pm

You ever notice how God never seems to tell people "Hey, you're wrong, you need to step aside"?

145 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:18:50pm

re: #140 LudwigVanQuixote

And when you fixate about what is clearly not the point, you just send the discussion into a total tangent.
[...]

Fixate? I'm discussing what you said. If you don't want discussion don't post.

We are criticising Bachmann for speaking about God, what you said is relevant.

146 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:19:00pm

re: #142 Gus 802

If you have the time watch this: True Believers. It's from the PBS series Carrier and this episode touches on "faith" aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier.

Sorry, Hulu doesn't work in England. I'll try to find it on google. Sounds like an interesting film.

147 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:19:15pm

re: #136 The Sanity Inspector

I generally admire him, but I have to do him the grace of overlooking things like his hostile fixation on Mother Teresa. The next time I hear about any organization Hitch belongs to serving the poorest of the poor, will be the first time.

WHAT? Think about all the poor Scotch producers he supports single handedly!

148 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:20:27pm

re: #146 HAL2010

Sorry, Hulu doesn't work in England. I'll try to find it on google. Sounds like an interesting film.

I think it's on Youtube.

149 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:21:43pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Do you think that Orthodox Jews, who believe that god wants them to obey certain dietary restrictions, are just like Bachmann? Do you think that Orthodox Jews, who think god is angered when Jews violate his Law, are just like Bachmann?

Religious people who believe they are acting as God wishes them and receiving instructions, guidance and influence from God in their daily life are all quite similar. If they justify this belief based upon their scriptures, this is another area of similarity.

I agree some sound more ridiculous then others, but faith and belief is what it is.

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:22:15pm

Most religions involved God telling people things. As a Mormon, I can hardly make fun of God sending revelations on earth.

My problems with her public pronouncements is that they are:

a. Odd (wasn't he at least a little cute?)
b. Self-serving
c. Public! This was your private life. Leave it so.

151 John Neverbend  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:22:26pm

re: #146 HAL2010

Sorry, Hulu doesn't work in England. I'll try to find it on google. Sounds like an interesting film.

Some years ago, I remember watching a program about a British nuclear submarine crew. Apparently there was a small church on board the "boat". The captain said that he felt that there was an uneasy juxtaposition of the on-board church with the multi-megatons of destructive power that were sitting just a few yards away.

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:22:40pm

re: #145 Bagua

Fixate? I'm discussing what you said. If you don't want discussion don't post.

We are criticising Bachmann for speaking about God, what you said is relevant.

I really don't understand why you are so willfully missing such an obvious point. Right, if you claim to be following a certain code as laid out by God, and thump on a book that you claim to believe says what He wants, and then do things that book would clearly define as evil in the sight of God, then you are open for some serious criticism.

I didn't write the Bible, but I have read it. I am commenting that folks like Bachmann apparently have not.

153 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:23:19pm

re: #149 Bagua

Okay. So you really do think that all religious people are just like Bachmann, if they claim to have any inkling about what god likes or doesn't like-- which, I think, is pretty much all religious people?

That's a more hard-core anti-religious attitude than I've seen from anyone, I think.

154 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #148 Gus 802

I think it's on Youtube.

Found this:

155 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:26:40pm

re: #151 John Neverbend

Some years ago, I remember watching a program about a British nuclear submarine crew. Apparently there was a small church on board the "boat". The captain said that he felt that there was an uneasy juxtaposition of the on-board church with the multi-megatons of destructive power that were sitting just a few yards away.

Don't know if that is ironic or just strange - a slightly contradictory position perhaps.

156 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:27:27pm

re: #154 HAL2010

Found this:


That's it. I watched the whole series.

157 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:27:37pm

No theocracies.

re: #153 Obdicut

I would say God wants us to care about each other & that about sums it up.

158 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:28:55pm

re: #156 Gus 802

Cool, I'll have to give it a go.

159 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:30:27pm

re: #155 HAL2010

I see no contradiction with that chapel.

I think nukes are a test, latent in the structure of the universe as they are.

When humanity finds them, humanity must grow up morally.

I find very pessimistic the efforts to ban all nukes, because that assumes that we will always be moral idiots.

160 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:31:02pm

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote

I really don't understand why you are so willfully missing such an obvious point. Right, if you claim to be following a certain code as laid out by God, and thump on a book that you claim to believe says what He wants, and then do things that book would clearly define as evil in the sight of God, then you are open for some serious criticism.

I didn't write the Bible, but I have read it. I am commenting that folks like Bachmann apparently have not.

You didn't write the Bible, and yet you are willing to state what the bible says on this and that. That is no different from the Christians when they claim that God likes such and such, and God hates the other things. Faith is faith, quoting the bible being indicative of what "God wants" or doesn't want is faith based.

Nothing wrong with that, but let's not criticise Bachmann for her faith based beliefs and statements with more faith based beliefs and statements. That is hypocrisy.

161 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:31:03pm

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

Just to continue.. let's look at that hippy Isaiah some more:

21 Alas, she has become a harlot,
The faithful city
That was filled with justice,
Where righteousness dwelt —
But now murderers.

22 Your silver has turned to dross;
Your wine is cut with water.

23 Your rulers are rogues
And cronies of thieves,
Every one avid for presents
And greedy for gifts;
They do not judge the case of the orphan,
And the widow's cause never reaches them.

*snipped*

Does that sound like never ever wanting any program designed to lift people out of poverty or ignorance? It does to me.

Just saying, for people who love to beat their bibles, the GOP would sure hate what is actually in it.


That's an overly broad brush.

(1) California's disastrous experiment with "whole word" reading instruction was resolutely opposed by the GOP. The whole point of the alphabet is that you don't have to just frakkin memorize every last word. Dems stuck with this program because it was their hobby horse, even when its failure was manifest. Who, then, actually cares for poor children? The suburban upper class will teach its own children to read, school or no school.

(1B) Same song, second verse: bilingual education has served as a language ghetto. Young children pick up any language they're immersed in. Very quickly. English immersion is a far better option for those whose home language is not English. The dems oppose it why? Because it permits immigrants to move into the economic mainstream where some of them might pick up bad voting habits? Who, then, actually cares for citizens of immigrant ancestry?

(2) Community Reinvestment act, designed to put poor people into homes by lowering credit standards, has been another liberal program that didn't work. Lowering credit standards flies in the face of the physics of money, so to speak. A small income does not suffice to pay off a big mortgage. Telling borrowers otherwise is leading them into ruin. As per, stumbling block in the path of the blind. Republicans were not the authors of this sin.

(3) Capitalism, for all its evils, is a mighty engine of productivity. Where once we saw appeals to charity to feed the hungry of Hong Kong, now we see a booming city and a beacon of prosperity. Even the Reds haven't been eager to rescind that.

Over much of the globe, obesity is a growing problem for the poor. Not to wish heart attacks on them, or diabetes, and granting that marketing KFC to these newly obese multitudes is wrong, a glut of food is a better problem to try to cope with than a dearth. The GOP, in defending capitalism, defends and upholds good stewardship of scarce resources: fuel, ores, cropland, and human labor.

So the GOP has its faults, and granted they are many and, for her friends, painful. But the Dems are prone to their own policies of which they should be ashamed. They don't take seriously the risk that measures intended to relieve a problem can make it worse. Good intentions, road to hell situation. Sometimes, they don't even honestly intend to relieve the problem. Just gain from being seen as trying.

Getting back to AGW, the Dems can claim the mantel of leadership when they sign off on building lots of nuclear power plants, and revoking NIMBY obstacles to that, and to wind and solar power. The Repubs could claim that mantel if they'd do all that, plus call for serious increases in R&D so that when it comes time for mass implementation of whatever the plan is, we can actually do it and keep the economy afloat.

162 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:32:50pm

More Christianist delusion, ain't it wonderful. "God talks to me, he tells me what to do, he even changes the traffic lights to green for me while I'm driving." Yada yada blah blah blah...

Yet they whine when people hold up being Christian to ridicule and call us nuts, uhh perhaps that is because you make us all appear to be frigging nuts? While God may have actually spoken to a few selected individuals over the course of history (and I have some doubts about even that) Bachmann isn't on that list.

This new evangelical dominionist Christianity tries to justify anything no matter how amoral on the grounds that the "rapture" is just days or months away and that "helping it come to fruition is necessary" no matter the cost. They have given up waiting for God to act within his time and for his own reasons, instead they will "force his hand" themselves.

The belief that one is able to "make" God do anything on your behalf and on your own timetable should rightly be called apostate. These people are not Christians no matter how much they proclaim themselves to be so. They are quite simply delusional and crazy.

163 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:33:41pm

re: #153 Obdicut

Okay. So you really do think that all religious people are just like Bachmann, if they claim to have any inkling about what god likes or doesn't like-- which, I think, is pretty much all religious people?

That's a more hard-core anti-religious attitude than I've seen from anyone, I think.

Call it what you want to call it, appeals to faith, statements about what God wants, and magical belief in a creator and that a certain book is divine and written by God, are all religious beliefs. You may consider your particular beliefs superior to others, but you have no basis for that.

164 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:33:47pm

re: #159 Ojoe

I see no contradiction with that chapel.

I think nukes are a test, latent in the structure of the universe as they are.

When humanity finds them, humanity must grow up morally.

I find very pessimistic the efforts to ban all nukes, because that assumes that we will always be moral idiots.

Two democracies have never gone to war with each other according to JS Rummel. Democratize, and the world will become a far more humane place (literally).

165 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:33:59pm

I would get up from that front row and run far far away from that lady and never stop

166 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:35:45pm

re: #165 spacejesus

I would get up from that front row and run far far away from that lady and never stop

I'd get more popcorn. :shrugs:

167 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:36:03pm

re: #164 HAL2010

Two democracies have never gone to war with each other according to JS Rummel. Democratize, and the world will become a far more humane place (literally).

There's only been one true democracy, and that was because they defined citizenship so narrowly that only a fraction of the population were citizens.

Perhaps you mean representative governments, like republics?

168 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:36:33pm

re: #165 spacejesus

I would get up from that front row and run far far away from that lady and never stop

If you had somehow managed to sneak into that church I think you would have been thrown out head first once they had found you!

169 SasyMomaCat  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:37:11pm

He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Micah 6:8 (NASB)

One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Mark 12: 28-31

170 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #167 EmmmieG

There's only been one true democracy, and that was because they defined citizenship so narrowly that only a fraction of the population were citizens.

Perhaps you mean representative governments, like republics?

Countries classed as "Free" by Freedom House if I remember correctly.

RJ Rummel's website.

171 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:38:33pm

the main reason people get LLMs or post law school degrees in specialized areas is because they didn't get good enough grades in law school to get jobs after graduation, not because god told them to spend 80k on learning slightly more about taxes.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:39:09pm

re: #163 Bagua

Call it what you want to call it, appeals to faith, statements about what God wants, and magical belief in a creator and that a certain book is divine and written by God, are all religious beliefs. You may consider your particular beliefs superior to others, but you have no basis for that.

Hey, are we getting into moral relativism here?

//Running like hell.

173 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:39:15pm

re: #153 Obdicut

That's a more hard-core anti-religious attitude than I've seen from anyone, I think.

You seem in love with adjectives and characterizations when you are in your attack dog mode.

People who tell me that God says a certain thing, and believe that God directs their lives and so on are all essentially equal in that they have religious beliefs. Some believe different things, but they are all expressing faith.

You may believe your faith and beliefs are superior and more sophisticated, but that's what they all say.

174 yoshicastmaster  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:39:25pm

LOL

R-Mars

nice touch

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:40:34pm

re: #164 HAL2010

Two democracies have never gone to war with each other according to JS Rummel. Democratize, and the world will become a far more humane place (literally).

Be careful. Tom Friedman said that a nation with a McDonalds had never bombed another nation with a McDonalds, and by the time the book came out, he was wrong.

176 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:40:53pm

re: #174 yoshicastmaster

LOL

R-Mars

nice touch

Hah. Well, someone has to represent them right?

177 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:41:25pm

re: #163 Bagua

I'm an atheist.

What I'm pointing out is that you're calling every religious person who thinks at all that they understand what their conception of God is, in terms of how that god wants people to behave, is just like Bachmann.

That is, to me, nutty as a walnut orchard. They are like Bachmann in that they have a faith-based religion, but they are not like her if they do not believe God communicates directly with them. If you can't see the difference between those beliefs, I'm not sure what to say.

178 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:42:09pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, are we getting into moral relativism here?

//Running like hell.

I suppose we are. I really find it amusing when someone tells me that "God says" a certain thing, or that their interpretation of the "holy" bible is the "correct" one. I've heard this from a number of diverse religious groups, all of which claimed knowledge of the "absolute truth". Fact is, if all of them are right then none of them are right.

179 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:42:44pm

New Scandal Arising out of Copenhagen Talks

Leaked UN report shows cuts offered at Copenhagen would lead to 3C rise

A confidential UN analysis obtained by the Guardian reveals that the emissions cuts offered so far at the Copenhagen climate change summit will lead to global temperatures rising by an average of 3C.

The analysis seriously undermines the statements by governments that they are aiming to limit emissions to a level ensuring no more than a 2C temperature rise over the next century, and indicates that the last 24 hours of negotiations will be extremely challenging.

A rise of 3C would mean up to 170 million more people suffering severe coastal floods and 550 million more at risk of hunger, according to the 2006 Stern economic review of climate change for the UK government - as well as leaving up to 50% of species facing extinction. Even a rise of 2C would lead to sharp decline in tropical crop yields, more flooding and droughts.

180 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:42:50pm

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

Be careful. Tom Friedman said that a nation with a McDonalds had never bombed another nation with a McDonalds, and by the time the book came out, he was wrong.

Rummels CV, better than Friedmans:

RUDOLPH J. RUMMEL, b, 1932, BA and MA from the University of Hawaii (1959, 1961); Ph.D. in Political Science (Northwestern University, 1963); Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Omicron Delta Kappa. Taught at Indiana University (1963), Yale (1964-66), University of Hawaii (1966-1995); now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Hawaii. Received numerous grants from NSF, ARPA, and the United States Peace Research Institute. Frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize (see here). Received the Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association for having intellectually most challenged the field in 1999; the Lifetime Achievement Award 2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association; and the 2007 The International Association of Genocide Scholars' Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and Democide Studies and Prevention.

Here

181 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:42:58pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

WHAT? Think about all the poor Scotch producers he supports single handedly!

Oooh, you went there!

182 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:43:00pm

re: #173 Bagua

I will happily cop to being desperately in love with descriptive, evocative adjectives, but curse your casual, flamboyant passing-over of my deep and profound adoration for meaningful adverbs.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:44:15pm

re: #173 Bagua

You seem in love with adjectives and characterizations when you are in your attack dog mode.

People who tell me that God says a certain thing, and believe that God directs their lives and so on are all essentially equal in that they have religious beliefs. Some believe different things, but they are all expressing faith.

You may believe your faith and beliefs are superior and more sophisticated, but that's what they all say.

Sure enough.

Of course, my faith and beliefs also won't get me an fawning political audience. That's reserved for Evangelical Protestantism in this country.

184 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:44:20pm

re: #155 HAL2010

Don't know if that is ironic or just strange - a slightly contradictory position perhaps.

Warriors have spiritual needs, too. More than most of us, perhaps.

185 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:45:24pm

re: #184 The Sanity Inspector

Warriors have spiritual needs, too. More than most of us, perhaps.

Perhaps. When my dad served he met guys who were atheists and some who were hardened believers.

186 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:45:50pm

re: #184 The Sanity Inspector

Warriors have spiritual needs, too. More than most of us, perhaps.

The "No atheists in foxholes"! WW 1 (I beleive) quote

187 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:46:48pm

re: #177 Obdicut

Bull, you are just in attack mode, arguing against anything I post and twisting my words.

For Ludwig to post what God likes and what God hates is no different than for Bachmann to do the same. These are faith based statements and quite similar.

I've heard a great many religious people of all persuasions say that this or that was an act of God, miracle. It is all similar in that it reflects faith and beliefs.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:50:24pm

re: #187 Bagua


For Ludwig to post what God likes and what God hates is no different than for Bachmann to do the same. These are faith based statements and quite similar.

Actually, they are not. Ludwig is speaking from a long-standing tradition in both Jewish and Christian religious observance, of looking to biblical texts for guidance about what God desires of us, and using those texts to support beliefs.

Michelle Bachmann is openly claiming that God speaks to her directly and endorses her work. This is actually, within most Jewish and Christian traditions, completely different.

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:52:39pm

Gotta run, will read back when I get home.

190 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:52:55pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure enough.

Of course, my faith and beliefs also won't get me an fawning political audience. That's reserved for Evangelical Protestantism in this country.

I agree, but there are many examples in other countries were faith based politics is very popular. The ultra-orthodox are a major political power in Israel for example. There is no difference between the strong faith based political parties in Israel that the Evangelicals in the USA. Unless you are asserting that one faith is correct and the other is false. How is that determined?

And to your further point, how is the "long standing" of a religious belief superior to a modern view? The evangelicals have a different faith, different belief and different interpretation of their bible. Is one set of beliefs superior to another?

191 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:53:11pm

re: #184 The Sanity Inspector

Warriors have spiritual needs, too. More than most of us, perhaps.

It is inconceivable to send believers out to die without spiritual support. It is also certain that the chaplaincies abrade the strict construction of a wall between church and state. The workable answer so far has been to ignore the problem, placing common sense and sentiment above ideology. No reason not to continue that way (with proper safeguards at DoD).

192 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:53:56pm

Woman abandoned in Fairfax as a baby finds her rescuers

The story of Mia, Chris and Emily, recounted by the three over the past few days, is a nativity narrative for modern times. There were no heavenly hosts that warm afternoon in 1989, just the distant ambulance sirens after the call to 911. But the event seemed blessed all the same.

Chris and Emily, both now 35, stayed close friends as they grew up, moved and married, bound by their rescue of the baby.

Mia, once she learned her story, never forgot them, and after numerous tries over several years managed at last, through the power of the Internet, to track them down. "I didn't know how they would feel," she said.

Emily said: "It's like a miracle. . . . My heart is filled now. There was always a little spot missing. "

Chris said, "It's the best Christmas present I have ever gotten."

193 Nadnerb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:54:46pm

re: #150 EmmmieG

Bingo on all 3 points. Religious and spiritual people have some kind of a relationship with God, but I think it should be held privately if you're an elected official. She's just a tacky person for doing this. I tend not to evangelize about my spirituality, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being a believer. You just have to have some scruples about religion if you discuss it.

That said, she's made her religiosity into a silly spectacle and not at all sincere.

Unbalanced loon.

194 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:55:58pm

re: #164 HAL2010

Yes & in the meanwhile it is good that the most moral groups have the biggest weapons, because upon the instant that they do not, the evil prey upon the innocent.

195 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:56:09pm

GOP religious fanatics, led by Michele Bachmann, James Dobson, and the completely insane Lou Engle, in last night's "prayercast" from Washington DC:

196 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:57:23pm

re: #179 Conservative Moonbat

New Scandal Arising out of Copenhagen Talks

Leaked UN report shows cuts offered at Copenhagen would lead to 3C rise

Like I said earlier: a UN meeting is a success simply because it's held.

The UN is looking for a fig leaf to cover their remarkable non-performance, and will happily declare success even if it means lying through their teeth about it.

Copenhagen, at best, should have been considered and presented as the beginning of a long process. Those who insisted it needed to be an end, especially those who claimed that the world was only weeks away from doom prior to the conference, turned the whole enterprise into even more of a mockery than it would have been otherwise. And they've managed to hamper any future efforts that will now have the perceived failure of Copenhagen hanging around their necks before they ever start.

Can we please leave the UN now, and try to do something better that actually stands a chance of working?

197 Bubblehead II  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:58:26pm
198 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:58:26pm

re: #194 Ojoe

Yes & in the meanwhile it is good that the most moral groups have the biggest weapons, because upon the instant that they do not, the evil prey upon the innocent.

Having the capability to blow up the world several times over is not exactly the most "moral" thing that springs to mind. But I believe you have a point.

199 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:59:05pm

re: #187 Bagua

You're accusing me of being in attack mode for defending someone else against your charge that they're just like Bachmann.

Think about that.

200 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:59:06pm

re: #195 Charles

GOP religious fanatics, led by Michele Bachmann, James Dobson, and the completely insane Lou Engle, in last night's "prayercast" from Washington DC:

[Video]

Oh for fuck's sake.

201 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:59:17pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

Sniff, sniff. What a great story!

202 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 1:59:49pm

Time to dial this thread down a few notches...

I waited patiently for the Lord
He inclined and heard my cry
He brought me up out of the pit
Out of the miry clay

I will sing, sing a new song
I will sing, sing a new song

How long to sing this song
How long to sing this song
How long...how long...how long...
How long...to sing this song

He set my feet upon a rock
And made my footsteps firm
Many will see
Many will see and fear

I will sing, sing a new song
I will sing, sing a new song
I will sing, sing a new song
I will sing, sing a new song

How long to sing this song
How long to sing this song
How long...how long...how long...
How long...to sing this song

203 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:01:22pm

Another video from the "prayercast:"

204 avanti  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:02:11pm

re: #73 rwdflynavy

He implies a movement by the top brass to give religion (Protestant fundamentalism specifically) control over our military. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The only time I actually had a concern about that was when I sponsored a Evangelical midshipman at the academy and found some of the senior officers gave special treatment to their Christian flock.
For example when he graduated and was awaiting orders he stayed rent free at a home provided by a local alumni with other Christians. While at the academy, he attended prayer meeting with like minded senior officers that would encourage "saving" other mids and the like.
It was a little creepy to find that the more religious mids may have had a leg up on the ladder. Even now as a Ensign, he's still mentored by, and associates with very religious senor staff. It may just be "taking care of your own", but the result is that he stays very much in the far right religious sphere.

205 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:02:38pm

lemme get this straight, she does whatever her husband tells her?

who is one really holding office here then and voting on things? her? her husband? god? her husband's "visions" of god?

206 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:02:55pm

re: #195 Charles

Oh my. I would rather have prayers from the likes of Oscar Wilde
Rx
Amazing Grace on the Pipes

I case you watched the simpering video.

207 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:03:11pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, they are not. Ludwig is speaking from a long-standing tradition in both Jewish and Christian religious observance, of looking to biblical texts for guidance about what God desires of us, and using those texts to support beliefs.

Michelle Bachmann is openly claiming that God speaks to her directly and endorses her work. This is actually, within most Jewish and Christian traditions, completely different.

Right, and note that Bachmann and many others have a different religious tradition. Are you saying that the "traditional" religions are supperior to others? What about the Hindus, Buddhists and Animists? Where do we draw the line?

For me the answer is simple, a persons religious beliefs are there personal and private business, I don't judge one superior to the other. One Principal I do assert is this:

The separation of Church and State.

I don't want to hear about what "God wants" from by representatives, regardless of whether they are Evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or any other flavour traditional or not.

208 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:03:17pm

Personally I blame Saul/Paul for all this bullshit...

Try, just really try to reconcile any of the bullshit he spouted with what Jesus actually said, yet the church was founded on Paul's writings, go figure ehh?

If you had to pick out someone as the "anti-christ" who would found the "apostate church" would you be so out of line if you looked really hard at him?

Just sayin'

209 Nadnerb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:03:24pm

re: #195 Charles

This is over the top. You have got to be kidding me. Speaking in tongues?!?!

I can understand your reasons for parting ways with the right. Exhibit H

210 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:03:32pm

re: #198 HAL2010

It is human nature.

211 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:03:58pm

"Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea."

Mark Twain

212 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:04:18pm

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Ga.) in a taped message to the prayercast, says we should run our whole society according to the laws of the Bible:

213 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:04:19pm

God has been a tool for thousands of years.

Disclaimer: The author accepts no responsibility for whichever definition of "tool" you apply to that sentence.

214 Digital Display  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:05:05pm

Good Grief! Bachmann is getting visions from God?
I'm not getting that warm and fuzzy George Washington on his knees at Valley Forge vision of victory.. More of a whacko vision of self importance in the name of God...

215 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:05:22pm

re: #195 Charles

GOP religious fanatics, led by Michele Bachmann, James Dobson, and the completely insane Lou Engle, in last night's "prayercast" from Washington DC:


216 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:05:32pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure enough.

Of course, my faith and beliefs also won't get me an fawning political audience. That's reserved for Evangelical Protestantism in this country.

Would you not include the radical Imams who preach politics to their fawning Islamofascist audiences?

217 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:12pm

re: #212 Charles

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Ga.) in a taped message to the prayercast, says we should run our whole society according to the laws of the Bible:


[Video]


haha, ok. death to red lobster and their blasphemous eating of shell fish

218 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:12pm

re: #213 JasonA

God has been a tool for thousands of years.

Disclaimer: The author accepts no responsibility for whichever definition of "tool" you apply to that sentence.

I'm also going to move away from you. Nothing personal, but IF that bolt of lightning comes out of the sky, I'd like to have a little space between me and it's intended target!
//

219 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:31pm

re: #212 Charles

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Ga.) in a taped message to the prayercast, says we should run our whole society according to the laws of the Bible:

[Video]

Um, no.

220 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:35pm

re: #205 spacejesus

lemme get this straight, she does whatever her husband tells her?

who is one really holding office here then and voting on things? her? her husband? god? her husband's "visions" of god?

Someone mentioned (could it have been here at LGF?) that she attends a church that wishes to abolish female suffrage, is this correct?

Anyone atLGF know?

221 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:43pm

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

222 Bagua  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:06:46pm

re: #199 Obdicut

You're accusing me of being in attack mode for defending someone else against your charge that they're just like Bachmann.

Think about that.

You strongly attack and denounce everything I post when you reply, it is your default mode. Also, you are wrong, I never said Ludwig was "just like Bachmann" I said "Otherwise agree, but when you make statements about what "God would like" you sound just like Bachmann." Which is accurate.

223 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:07:20pm

re: #195 Charles

GOP religious fanatics, led by Michele Bachmann, James Dobson, and the completely insane Lou Engle, in last night's "prayercast" from Washington DC:


[Video]


I just want to cry.
This is awful.
I couldn't watch the whole thing, but honestly - this sort of prayer rarely sounds sincere to me. It's a "show".

224 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:07:23pm

More from the GOP "prayercast" - Pastor Jim Garlow says that health care reform violates all of the Ten Commandments:

225 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:07:39pm

re: #220 HAL2010

Someone mentioned (could it have been here at LGF?) that she attends a church that wishes to abolish female suffrage, is this correct?

Anyone atLGF know?

considering she is a politician, that would be beyond hilarious

226 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:07:53pm

re: #205 spacejesus

lemme get this straight, she does whatever her husband tells her?

who is one really holding office here then and voting on things? her? her husband? god? her husband's "visions" of god?

That's hwat I'd like to know. Who is the brains of this outfit? Anyone?

227 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:08:23pm

re: #225 SpaceJesus

considering she is a politician, that would be beyond hilarious

Thats what I mean!

228 Neutral President  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:08:52pm

Well...

Perhaps it's time for someone to use a knockout gas on her, implant a wireless speaker & microphone in her teeth and have Jesus start talking to her like Kent in Real Genius.

"Michele, this is Jesus. My father, you know, God, wants you to resign from politics and dedicate your life and your fortune to helping at shelters for emotionally abused women."

229 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:08:57pm

re: #226 Sharmuta

That's hwat I'd like to know. Who is the brains of this outfit? Anyone?

Assumption of facts not in evidence...

230 osprey34229  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:09:16pm

# 42
I don't think about GOD that often. Being one of the oldest
members of the forum maybe I should? GOD has never talked
to me however I'll tell you something about GOD and the
army! AS a young soldier in Korea in 1951 I talked to HIM a
lot. Made many promises I did not keep. When the $hit comes down
it's hard to separate GOD from the army. I can tell you better men
than I did the same.

231 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:09:23pm

re: #226 Sharmuta

That's hwat I'd like to know. Who is the brains of this outfit? Anyone?

yeah, what if she wants to vote on something and her constituents want her to vote on it as well, but her husband is just like, "no, make me a sandwich instead ye inferior daughter of eve" and then she just stays home and does that.

232 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:09:35pm

re: #206 Ojoe

Oh my. I would rather have prayers from the likes of Oscar Wilde
Rx
Amazing Grace on the Pipes

I case you watched the simpering video.

I will admit to loving bagpipes when they are well played.
When they're not . . . ew.

233 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:21pm

how do you say "seek psychiatric help, republican nutjobs" in tongues?

234 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:22pm

re: #194 Ojoe

Yes & in the meanwhile it is good that the most moral groups have the biggest weapons, because upon the instant that they do not, the evil prey upon the innocent.

Like Churchill said in reference to those who wondered why Britain was at war. "If we left off fighting, you would soon find out."

235 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:25pm

re: #203 Charles

They brought up Ester again. Weird.

236 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:26pm

re: #230 osprey34229

A fine post sir.

237 Girth  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:39pm

re: #228 ArchangelMichael

Well...

Perhaps it's time for someone to use a knockout gas on her, implant a wireless speaker & microphone in her teeth and have Jesus start talking to her like Kent in Real Genius.

"Michele, this is Jesus. My father, you know, God, wants you to resign from politics and dedicate your life and your fortune to helping at shelters for emotionally abused women."

"And stop playing with yourself."

238 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:10:41pm

re: #212 Charles

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Ga.) in a taped message to the prayercast, says we should run our whole society according to the laws of the Bible:


[Video]

Is labeling this the Cracker Taliban out of bounds for this kind of stuff?

239 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:11:08pm

re: #232 reine.de.tout

You have to be sure the drones are in tune.

240 cliffster  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:11:10pm

re: #221 Gus 802

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein

"As long as we restrict ourselves to purely mechanical processes in the realm where Newton's mechanics holds sway, we are certain of the equivalence of the systems K and K'. But this view of ours will not have any deeper significance unless the systems K and K' are equivalent with respect to all physical processes, that is, unless the laws of nature with respect to K are in entire agreement with those with respect to K'. By assuming this to be so, we arrive at a principle which, if it is really true, has great heuristic importance. For by theoretical consideration of processes which take place relatively to a system of reference with uniform acceleration, we obtain information as to the career of processes in a homogeneous gravitational field."

Albert Einstein

241 HAL2010  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:11:22pm

re: #228 ArchangelMichael

Well...

Perhaps it's time for someone to use a knockout gas on her, implant a wireless speaker & microphone in her teeth and have Jesus start talking to her like Kent in Real Genius.

"Michele, this is Jesus. My father, you know, God, wants you to resign from politics and dedicate your life and your fortune to helping at shelters for emotionally abused women."



Reminds me of this story
:

WASHINGTON, DC—Telephone logs recorded by the National Security Agency and obtained by Congress as part of an ongoing investigation suggest that the vice president may have used the Oval Office intercom system to address President Bush at crucial moments, giving categorical directives in a voice the president believed to be that of God.
While journalists and presidential historians had long noted Bush's deep faith and Cheney's powerful influence in the White House, few had drawn a direct correlation between the two until Tuesday, when transcripts of meetings that took place in March and April of 2002 became available.

In a transcript of an intercom exchange recorded in March 2002, a voice positively identified as the vice president's identifies himself as "the Lord thy God" and promotes the invasion of Iraq, as well as the use of torture in prisoner interrogations.

A close examination of Bush's public statements and Secret Service time logs tracking the vice president reveals a consistent pattern, one which links Bush's belief that he had received word from God with Cheney's use of the White House's telephone-based intercom system.

242 Nadnerb  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:11:52pm

Why do people have to invoke God to oppose healthcare?

243 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:11:53pm

The only Prophecy I can somewhat follow is Pizza Bear.

(That was one awful movie, 1979 sure had some stinkers)

244 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:12:09pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

how do you say "seek psychiatric help, republican nutjobs" in tongues?

"Nancy Pelosi Is Correct"

245 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:13:00pm

re: #240 cliffster

What was the purpose for that quote?

246 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:13:00pm

re: #235 Sharmuta

They brought up Ester again. Weird.

Is that what the biologists call the Esther link?

247 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:13:20pm

4 year old gets drunk, steals neighbors' christmas presents

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

hat tip: the south

248 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:13:22pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

how do you say "seek psychiatric help, republican nutjobs" in tongues?

Get them to chant the magic word "Owa Tanas Iam." several times quickly.

249 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:14:19pm

re: #230 osprey34229

Updings for being a Forgotten War veteran.

250 Girth  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:14:25pm

re: #248 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Get them to chant the magic word "Owa Tanas Iam." several times quickly.

"Iam Sofa King Stew Pit"

251 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #250 Girth

O Watagu Siam.

252 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:16:58pm

re: #247 SpaceJesus

4 year old gets drunk, steals neighbors' christmas presents

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

hat tip: the south

Yup,,, those ignerint redneck suthners!!

oh , wait !!

damn

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

253 zora  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:17:08pm

Michelle Bachmann and friends praying for Healthcare reform to fail. At least I think that's what they are praying for.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

254 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:17:17pm

re: #238 Jeff In Ohio

Is labeling this the Cracker Taliban out of bounds for this kind of stuff?

If I were you, I would trademark that.

Or would have. Because it's too late - I'm totally stealing it.

255 Digital Display  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:19:05pm

re: #253 zora

Michelle Bachmann and friends praying for Healthcare reform to fail. At least I think that's what they are praying for.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

I won't take her seriously until she takes up rattlesnakes in prayer...
oh ye of little faith..
/

256 cliffster  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:19:23pm

re: #245 Gus 802

What was the purpose for that quote?

General relativity. Duh

257 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:20:24pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

If I were you, I would trademark that.

Or would have. Because it's too late - I'm totally stealing it.

You now qualify to be VP or run for President

258 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:20:30pm

re: #256 cliffster

General relativity. Duh

It was out of context so I didn't see the purpose. I assume you were just trying to be a wise guy which is reflected with your last word "duh."

259 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:20:52pm

Hamas still lobbing rockets into Israel. Shameful that this has receded into background noise, for most news media.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

260 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:21:37pm

re: #257 sattv4u2

You now qualify to be VP or run for President

I'm holding out for Emperor.

261 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:23:49pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

Yup,,, those ignerint redneck suthners!!

oh , wait !!

damn

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

yeah, except the mom in this story actually sounds somewhat like a responsible human being

262 Digital Display  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:24:03pm

re: #260 SixDegrees

I'm holding out for Emperor.

You could always hang out over the stern of a cruise ship and scream, I'm the king of the world!

263 Girth  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:25:19pm

Bachmann reminds me of one of my favorite old Phil Hartman SNL sketches (can't find any video):

...

Jesus: Tina..

Tina: Yes?

Jesus: I listen to everyone's prayers
, and each prayer is answered in its own way..

Tina: Yes?

Jesus: And I was wondering.. if you would try.. to not pray so much?

Tina: Well.. well, now I-I.. I thought you liked me to pray? As much as possible?

Jesus: [ thinking in delicate terms ] How shall I put this..? If you could concentrate oyur prayers on just the most important things.. you know.. life and death, temptation.. and save the prayers like, "Dear Jesus: Be with me as I vacuum the stairs.." or, "Dear Jesus: Fill me with your spirit as I sponge off the slipcovers." Things like that.. [ smiling ] It would just make things a lot simpler, Tina.

Tina: [ near tears ] You-you mean that I.. I shouldn't have asked you to help Blair with her Algebra test?

Jesus: Uh.. no.. actually.. Algebra's going to be very important to Blair later on. That's actually okay.

Tina: Then.. what? I'm confused! I'm confused now, I am! [ starts to cry ]

Jesus: Tina.. Tina.. all I'm saying is, prayers like, "Please don't let the rice get sticky." You know.

Tina: Yeah! Yeah!

Jesus: I mean, do you really need My help with stuff like that? See?


...

[Link: snltranscripts.jt.org...]

264 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:25:57pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

If I were you, I would trademark that.

Or would have. Because it's too late - I'm totally stealing it.

Not a problem. In strict Commie tradition, I stole it from someone else.

265 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:26:48pm

re: #261 SpaceJesus

yeah, except the mom in this story actually sounds somewhat like a responsible human being

Thats because she's not in "the south"

BTW ,, do you get those broad brushes at Home Depot?

266 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:26:49pm

re: #258 Gus 802

It was out of context so I didn't see the purpose. I assume you were just trying to be a wise guy which is reflected with your last word "duh."

Is that you, Curly? (You could use the vertical sideways handblock if he tries the two-finger eye poke.)

267 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:27:18pm

re: #260 SixDegrees

I'm holding out for Emperor.


Well ,, you already have a cool chapeau!!

268 Kragar  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:28:28pm

re: #267 sattv4u2

Well ,, you already have a cool chapeau!!

But does he have a bitchin' camarro?

269 cliffster  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:29:45pm

re: #258 Gus 802

It was out of context so I didn't see the purpose. I assume you were just trying to be a wise guy which is reflected with your last word "duh."

I'm sorry you didn't like it. C'mon man, lighten up. Read a little Dave Barry. Eat some chocolate. Yum.

270 Gus  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:31:23pm

re: #269 cliffster

I'm sorry you didn't like it. C'mon man, lighten up. Read a little Dave Barry. Eat some chocolate. Yum.

OK Let me give it a shot. ;)

If you suveyed a hundred typical middle-aged Americans, I bet you'd find that only two of them could tell you their blood types, but every last one of them would know the theme song from the 'Beverly Hillbillies'.

271 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:31:44pm

Too slow and serious here.
Engaging pun mode...stand by...

272 Jadespring  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:31:45pm

Holy hecka'neh that's one creepy video.

273 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:32:11pm

re: #268 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But does he have a bitchin' camarro?

From Big Lizard in My Backyard? (A click on the first link plays it.)

274 cliffster  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:34:21pm

re: #270 Gus 802

Sweet.

275 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:36:20pm

re: #270 Gus 802

...Hills, that is,
Swimmin' pools,
Movie stars...

276 jvic  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 2:54:00pm

Viewed from the outside, when you're not embedded in the props and connivance of the "fellowship" format, the blatancy of Bachmann's false humility is astonishing.

I agree with William James that there are legitimate spiritual experiences, but Bachmann et al seem to have given themselves over to a self-reinforcing collective narcissism which they contrue as divine guidance.

277 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 3:13:18pm

"Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Mars)".
This literally made my day. Thanks, Mr. Johnson.

278 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 3:29:50pm

re: #198 HAL2010

Having the capability to blow up the world several times over is not exactly the most "moral" thing that springs to mind. But I believe you have a point.

We do not have any such means, not at this time. But yes, "Boomers" carry the means to kill millions. They're still just a tool. The controls governing the launch of their arsenal are very tight. Nobody wants to risk a "false positive" launch. The fundamental fact of Boomers is that they're hidden. A preemptive strike against them is supposed to be impossible, and it probably is with today's technology.

That means that the U.S. can wait until it finds out for sure whether it's been attacked. We don't have to sit there fretting use it or lose it, as what appears to maybe be an attack shapes up.

Simulations and game theory and everything we know about conflict suggest that the risks of accidental war, of preemptive war, and of war through miscalculation, are reduced when rival powers each know that the other side cannot make a first strike work.

The morality of any work depends on the foreseeable consequences of that work. To the best of our ability to understand consequences, in the case of boomers, the consequences ought to be a stable peace, at least when it comes to nukes. Those who work them can do so with clean conscience unless their reason tells them that it won't work that way.

279 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 4:15:26pm

re: #207 Bagua

Right, and note that Bachmann and many others have a different religious tradition. Are you saying that the "traditional" religions are supperior to others? What about the Hindus, Buddhists and Animists? Where do we draw the line?

For me the answer is simple, a persons religious beliefs are there personal and private business, I don't judge one superior to the other. One Principal I do assert is this:

The separation of Church and State.

I don't want to hear about what "God wants" from by representatives, regardless of whether they are Evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or any other flavour traditional or not.

I agree entirely with your political view. In religious terms, there are traditions within Judaism and Christianity that I believe are better rooted and more socially and theologically viable than others. That has nothing to do with politics, but it's something I bear in mind as I watch less restrained, less questioning, less modest, and less tolerant voices rise in the marketplace.

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #216 Spare O'Lake

Would you not include the radical Imams who preach politics to their fawning Islamofascist audiences?

Certainly, in other countries, or for a small, fanatic fringe in this one.

However, we don't have groups of radical Imams in congress.

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 4:19:39pm

re: #231 SpaceJesus

yeah, what if she wants to vote on something and her constituents want her to vote on it as well, but her husband is just like, "no, make me a sandwich instead ye inferior daughter of eve" and then she just stays home and does that.

I suppose all politicians are somewhat dependent on their spouses' consent.

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 4:21:03pm

re: #242 Nadnerb

Why do people have to invoke God to oppose healthcare?

Because they do not have enough faith in either God or representative democracy.

283 Fortitudine  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:27:58pm

re: #44 Shiplord Kirel

Remember, gang, this crazy woman is one of the 535 people who have the power to declare war, create or abolish federal agencies, levy taxes, compel testimony, and change the law of the land.

I wouldn't even allow someone who claimed to get her instructions from God to wash my car...this is beyond frightening.

284 Red Lion  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 7:10:36pm

Yeah, but she's MILF-licious! Isn't that what counts in American today?


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