Breaking: Tentative Deal Reached in Copenhagen

Environment • Views: 2,353

It was beginning to look like Copenhagen would be a wash, but news is now coming in that a tentative deal has been reached.

Reporting from Copenhagen - Key international leaders have reached a tentative deal to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and curb climate change, the Los Angeles Times has learned, after the United States and China agreed to a method for recording developing nations’ pledges to limit emissions and ensuring those pledges are carried out.

Details of the agreement were approved in an evening meeting with President Obama, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, sources said.

Obama has scheduled a press conference in the host Bella Center to unveil the agreement.

A senior administration official said following the meeting that the parties had reached a “meaningful agreement.”

“It’s not sufficient to combat the threat of climate change but its an important first step,” the official said.

Jump to bottom

248 comments
1 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:33:47pm
Details of the agreement were approved in an evening meeting with President Obama, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, sources said.

Those are the names we needed to see. Maybe there's a little hope left.

2 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:35:02pm
“It’s not sufficient to combat the threat of climate change but its an important first step,” the official said.

Not sufficient? Then why don't they get back to work?

3 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:35:20pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

Those are the names we needed to see. Maybe there's a little hope left.

Indeed.

4 eric  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:36:45pm

Kyoto was a great agreement too. Nothing to see here.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:37:13pm

re: #2 The Sanity Inspector

Politics is the art of compromise. We must be getting something from this we want, otherwise we wouldn't agree to it. Obama was keen on a number of points this morning in his speech, including the need for accountability. It may be we've gotten a framework for that with China, which would be big.

6 samsgran1948  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:38:32pm
Obama has scheduled a press conference in the host Bella Center to unveil the agreement.

That's the money quote. Anything for a photo op.

7 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:38:37pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

Those are the names we needed to see. Maybe there's a little hope left.

I'll wait to see what the 'agreement" is. I agree that 'those are the names we need to see", but at what cost?

I previously thanked President Obama re: his speech there. I hope to thank him for the agreement!

8 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:40:11pm

re: #7 sattv4u2

I'll wait to see what the 'agreement" is. I agree that 'those are the names we need to see", but at what cost?

I previously thanked President Obama re: his speech there. I hope to thank him for the agreement!

I'll wait and see as well- I"m just a little hopeful is all.

9 Baier  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:41:33pm

Hopefully we'll get something good. It's going to be a tricky balance to protect America's interests and get a worthwhile climate deal at the same time.

10 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:42:22pm

re: #6 samsgran1948

That's the money quote. Anything for a photo op.

Is that all you have to say about this?

I think at least it is an agreememt of some kind. A start, rather than nothing.
Thats a good thing.

11 John Neverbend  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:43:00pm

I'm looking at a Reuters headline: Obama says US will not be legally bound by agreement in Copenhagen, but reaffirms US targets on emissions cuts.

No story as yet, just the headline.

12 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:43:45pm

re: #10 blueraven

Is that all you have to say about this?

I think at least it is an agreememt of some kind. A start, rather than nothing.
Thats a good thing.

Not all "agreements" are good things. I'm hopeful, but I'd rather no agreement than a bad one!

13 Cato the Elder  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:46:19pm

On the other hand, I saw this earlier today:

New climate draft drops 2010 deadline for treaty
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
COPENHAGEN
A new draft climate agreement that was being considered by world leaders at the UN summit in Copenhagen dropped a previous 2010 deadline for achieving a legally binding treaty to fight global warming.
The latest draft obtained by The Associated Press on Friday does not have a deadline.
Like previous drafts it refers to "deep cuts" in global emissions of greenhouse gases but does not give exact figures.

First they punted to next year, now there's no schedule for a binding treaty at all. Could that be because you can't get 192 people to agree on anything, much less countries?

By the way, I predicted this the day after they announced there would be no binding treaty negotiated in Denmark. People were all, like, next year in Mexico. I called bullshit.

Pessimism is always a good bet.

14 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:46:37pm

re: #6 samsgran1948

That's the money quote. Anything for a photo op.

Remarks like this really puzzle me. It seems to me that we want some kind of agreement out of this and I think it helps the process to see that the United States of America, no matter who the president is, is front and center with trying to come up with a solution.

15 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:48:03pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Hey ,, did you bury Walter in a snowbank?

16 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:48:35pm

re: #12 sattv4u2

Not all "agreements" are good things. I'm hopeful, but I'd rather no agreement than a bad one!

I seriously doubt whether we can come up with a really good agreement right now. But if we can get the majority of the countries to agree then even if the agreement is weak we can go back and strengthen it.

17 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:50:16pm

PZ has a great cartoon on his website today.

18 John Neverbend  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:50:19pm

re: #16 Kewalo

I seriously doubt whether we can come up with a really good agreement right now. But if we can get the majority of the countries to agree then even if the agreement is weak we can go back and strengthen it.

I think that's the idea, and it's what John Ashe, Chairman of Kyoto Protocol talks a the U.N. was echoing. "I hope it sets the stage for serious work in 2010 so that we can conclude what originally set out to do here in Copenhagen...."

19 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:51:03pm

re: #16 Kewalo

I seriously doubt whether we can come up with a really good agreement right now. But if we can get the majority of the countries to agree then even if the agreement is weak we can go back and strengthen it.

Again,, depends on whats in it, why it's "weak" and IF it can be amended

If you and I were to enter an agreement that was advantageous to you, and not so much to me, would you be willing to amend it later?

20 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:51:05pm

"Pessimism is always a good bet."
Also- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Robert Heinlein

I hope we can do something beneficial without completely demolishing our economy.

21 Cato the Elder  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:52:40pm

re: #15 sattv4u2

Hey ,, did you bury Walter in a snowbank?

No, but I made him stop at this little bar in the middle of Skank Canyon (really pretty bartender), where all the guests sign dollar bills and pin them to the walls, rafters and ceiling. Mine says "Cato the Elder, 149 BC".

If anyone can find it, it's yours. It'll be worth something someday.

22 The Curmudgeon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:53:20pm

Obama wants something "positive" to come out of this. It doesn't need to be substantive at all. An agreement about a "framework" for future agreements would be all he needs to brag about at a news conference. I'm betting that this is really nothing at all.

23 Jaerik  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:53:51pm

Here's to hoping this agreement holds together longer than the Iranian nuclear fuel one did.

(As in, actually hoping. Not snark.)

24 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:53:59pm

I hope we can do something economically responsible without totally demolishing our planet.

25 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:56:06pm

re: #24 blueraven

Touche'.

26 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:56:47pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

It'll be worth $1, anyway.

27 Irenicum  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:58:16pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

"Skank Canyon" Are you serious? LOL!

28 ulmsey123  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:59:08pm

It's obvious that they know the location of Manbearpig but need to keep that info secret.
What happens if there is no agreement? According to Obama, we need to act NOW or it will be to late. Too late for what? The end of the world?
I feel like I'm living in ancient Egypt. We must offer a sacrifice to the gods or we will be destroyed.
He's doing the same thing with the Healthcare bill. If it doesn't pass, the country WILL go bankrupt.
Talk about fear mongering!!! But hey! If the health bill doesn't pass, the United States will go under. If we go under, think of the C0 reduction! The world will be saved! I'm sure the United Nations will send us some food.

29 Tumulus11  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:00:11pm
'The deal includes [...] a transparency provision that will subject China, India and other fast-developing nations to international review of their self-reported progress on emissions limits ...'

'It comes after a tense two weeks of negotiations that had left diplomats and heads of state visibly frustrated this morning after a long night of talks.

And it is the culmination of a full-court press by the Americans to woo China, including dispatching fully half of the U.S. negotiators to focus on the Chinese, and a sharp rejoinder from Obama in a speech this morning to the leaders gathered here.

"We are ready to get this done today," Obama said. "But there has to be movement on all sides."


. Premier Wen blinked.

30 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:01:46pm

re: #29 Tumulus11

Yep.

The economic reality is that the US can weather (heh) climate change better than China. It'll suck for us both, but they are far less able to deal. No matter how much they try to screw out of us, they can't change that.

31 limewash  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:13pm

There was an interesting quote in the NY times article that was pointed out

The deal came after a dramatic moment in which Mr. Obama burst into a meeting of the Chinese, Indian and Brazilian leaders, according to senior administration officials. Chinese protocol officers protested, and Mr. Obama said he did not want them negotiating in secret.

The intrusion led to new talks that cemented key terms of the deal, American officials said.

Did he just bust in there like some bada**? That's kinda funny if I'm reading it right.

32 William of Orange  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:29pm

It's all watered down of course....


Lady Compromise always delivers ugly babies. (® William of Orange. )

33 limewash  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:54pm

Doh sorry here's the link to New York Times article: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

34 limewash  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:59pm

re: #6 samsgran1948

That's a cheap shot.

35 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

No, but I made him stop at this little bar in the middle of Skank Canyon (really pretty bartender), where all the guests sign dollar bills and pin them to the walls, rafters and ceiling. Mine says "Cato the Elder, 149 BC".

If anyone can find it, it's yours. It'll be worth something someday.

42 cents, at the rate we're going!

36 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:29pm
The deal came after a dramatic moment in which Mr. Obama burst into a meeting of the Chinese, Indian and Brazilian leaders, according to senior administration officials. Chinese protocol officers protested, and Mr. Obama said he did not want them negotiating in secret.

Well gosh, he could have just done that via a teleconference.
/

37 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:45pm

re: #32 William of Orange

What about the compromise that allowed a certain Orangish gentleman to assume the throne of England?

38 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:59pm

re: #26 Obdicut

It'll be worth $1, anyway.

see #35

39 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:05:23pm

re: #36 Jeff In Ohio

I hope he came through the wall, like the Kool-Aid man.

40 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:06:50pm

re: #39 Obdicut

I hope he came through the wall, like the Kool-Aid man.

That's working on so many levels.

41 Girth  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:07:01pm

re: #39 Obdicut

I hope he came through the wall, like the Kool-Aid man.

Oh Yeah!

42 limewash  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:07:46pm

re: #39 Obdicut

lol, I'd love a photo op of that one.

43 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:08:19pm

re: #37 Obdicut

What about the compromise that allowed a certain Orangish gentleman to assume the throne of England?

You mean that Calvinist guy right?

44 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:08:30pm

re: #21 Cato the Elder

SO ,, I missed an episode somewhere along the way. Walter says you're heading out to California? Christmas visit, or for good?

(didn't you just move from Baltimore to Maine ?!?!)

45 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:08:40pm

re: #25 Odahi

:)
I don't think our positions are mutually exclusive. Maybe closer than it appears?

46 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:08:46pm

Liquid Imaged on Titan.

Sweet picture.

47 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:09:15pm

re: #46 SixDegrees

Liquid Imaged on Titan.

Sweet picture.

DRINK!

48 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:10:30pm

re: #47 sattv4u2

DRINK!

Uh... no thanks

/methane = liquidized farts

49 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:11:10pm

re: #48 Thanos

Hey man, can I borrow your lighter?

50 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:11:27pm

re: #48 Thanos

/methane = liquidized farts

Really, really cold ones.

51 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:12:12pm

re: #50 allegro

Really, really cold ones.

And wet, too.

52 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:12:44pm

re: #31 limewash


Did he just bust in there like some bada**? That's kinda funny if I'm reading it right.

Here's the footage.

53 Cato the Elder  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:13:00pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

SO ,, I missed an episode somewhere along the way. Walter says you're heading out to California? Christmas visit, or for good?

(didn't you just move from Baltimore to Maine ?!?!)

I'm doing another meditation retreat, this time in the Mojave Desert. December 21 through January 5. Decided to drive because I've never done the Kerouac thing before.

54 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:14:16pm

/re: #43 Thanos

Indeed.

55 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:16:02pm

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I'm doing another meditation retreat, this time in the Mojave Desert. December 21 through January 5. Decided to drive because I've never done the Kerouac thing before.

Cool. I've never done the meditation part, but I have driven cross country solo several times
LOVE IT!

56 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:16:19pm

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I'm doing another meditation retreat, this time in the Mojave Desert. December 21 through January 5. Decided to drive because I've never done the Kerouac thing before.

I maintain that everyone needs to drive across the country at a leisurely pace at least once. Nowadays, we usually fly to destinations if they're more than a couple of states away, but I still enjoy a driving across large fractions of North America. It's comfortable and familiar (for me, anyway) and it reveals aspects of the nation that just aren't apparent from the air.

Like pie. But that's another story.

57 Gearhead  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:16:23pm

re: #48 Thanos

Uh... no thanks

/methane = liquidized farts


It's Raining Farts

58 brookly red  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:18:57pm

...the Los Angeles Times has learned, after the United States and China agreed to a method for recording developing nations’ pledges to limit emissions and ensuring those pledges are carried out...

Agreement with China hmmm... we owe them a lot of money don't we?

59 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:19:04pm
60 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:20:35pm

re: #59 osprey34229

Pffttt! Powerline?! Not exactly peer reviewed science, which is what I try to read when I read up on the subject. Please try again.

61 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:20:36pm

re: #59 osprey34229

Does it reference any peer reviewed articles on the topic? Whatever the topic is.

62 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:20:42pm

re: #59 osprey34229

PZ had a great article on the tree ring thing yesterday. Very interesting stuff.

63 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:21:54pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Pessimism is always a good bet.

I prefer to think of it as realism.

64 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:22:15pm

re: #59 osprey34229

After reading #'s 60 and 61, care to "adjust" your comment!?!?!

65 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:23:31pm
66 jaunte  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:23:35pm

re: #59 osprey34229

The first line of that Powerline post is not promising of anything but polemic:

"Climategate opened the floodgates, and the faux-scientific edifice of global warming is being swept away."


Swept away!

67 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:23:52pm

re: #31 limewash

There was an interesting quote in the NY times article that was pointed out

Did he just bust in there like some bada**? That's kinda funny if I'm reading it right.

I'm not sure I'm buying that story. Barging in like that would be considered incredibly rude to the chinese.

68 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:24:46pm

re: #67 RogueOne

Barging in like that would be considered incredibly rude to the chinese.

But... but... did he bow???

69 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:25:31pm

re: #45 blueraven

I'm in favor of alternative energy, if it doesn't pollute worse than what it replaces (check out what's in Li-Ion batteries, and what they do to get it, and where it goes when they die). The batteries used in much solar technology are REALLY bad news. Plug-in hybrids? Where do we get all that extra electricity? More coal plants? More oil from our good buddies the Saudis and that ilk? I'm definitely in favor of energy independence, low environmental impact, and sustainability. Which technologies will give those to us? Personally, I favor LOTS more nuclear power plants. Check the U. S. Navy's record on safe use of nuclear power. The latest designs are cleaner, safer, and more efficient. THAT is independence we can all live with.

70 captdiggs  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:25:33pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

China and India will never abide by anything that contracts their economies or curbs growth.
They have nearly a billion people living in borderline poverty. India has a half billion that still live without electricity. The Chinese regime knows that to stay in power they need to keep up the growth and raising the standard of living.
I just can't see either one not cheating or outright reneging on any agreement that curbs their growth in the least.

71 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:26:41pm

re: #67 RogueOne

I'm not sure I'm buying that story. Barging in like that would be considered incredibly rude to the chinese.

It sounds like a bad parody of Blade.

It also seems completely implausible, given the enormous security webs spun around heads of state at these events.

I suspect there's been a bit of exaggeration applied here.

72 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:29:02pm

re: #71 SixDegrees

That's what I'd bet. All I know is what I've been told from people involved in sales about the differences between the US/European markets and Asia. Aggressive tactics don't go over well.

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:29:24pm

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

74 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:30:17pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

We promised to make a substantial down payment on all the money we owe the Chinese.//

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:30:45pm

re: #74 RogueOne

We promised to make a substantial down payment on all the money we owe the Chinese.//

to who?

76 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:13pm

re: #72 RogueOne

That's what I'd bet. All I know is what I've been told from people involved in sales about the differences between the US/European markets and Asia. Aggressive tactics don't go over well.

That's also a good point. While we're pretty loose about etiquette here in the US, it's a very big deal in other cultures.

I suspect it was probably more like an unscheduled, more or less impromptu meeting.

But who knows? Maybe the President has his Hulk moments, and this time it was clobberin' time.

77 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:25pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

Thats why I'm reserving praise of an 'agreement" (for the sake of having an agreement) until we see what it is

78 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:34pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

Just 100 billion ....

79 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:34pm

Cato still around? If you've mentioned how you like Walters neighborhood I missed it. I told him earlier if this is your first trip to the area you might be tempted to stay.

80 brookly red  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:51pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

/We already owe the Chinese infinite dollars... maybe he gave them Alaska?

81 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:32:06pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't we offer infinite dollars toward all this only yesterday?

Yes, but yesterday was an infinitely long time ago.

82 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:32:24pm

re: #80 brookly red

/We already owe the Chinese infinite dollars... maybe he gave them Alaska?

Winner!

83 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:32:37pm

re: #70 captdiggs

So they'll be very proactive about responding to global warming, then, if they won't do anything that contracts their growth, right?

84 researchok  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:36:02pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

Politics is the art of compromise. We must be getting something from this we want, otherwise we wouldn't agree to it. Obama was keen on a number of points this morning in his speech, including the need for accountability. It may be we've gotten a framework for that with China, which would be big.

I'm not sure if this tentative agreement is compromise or cosmetic in nature.

85 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:36:52pm

re: #78 Bobibutu

Just 100 billion ...

carrying around money...

86 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:36:54pm

re: #78 Bobibutu

Just 100 billion ...



We offered 10 billion, SS Clinton said that the US would help to raise the total amount of 100 billion.

87 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:37:23pm

re: #84 researchok

I'm not sure if this tentative agreement is compromise or cosmetic in nature.

the principles don't either I imagine....yet

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:37:30pm

re: #86 blueraven

Where we getting ten billion? Who's gonna get it?

89 recusancy  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:37:38pm

Obama just gave a press conference in Cop where he answered a lot of the questions I'm seeing coming up on this thread.

90 brookly red  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:37:41pm

re: #83 Obdicut

So they'll be very proactive about responding to global warming, then, if they won't do anything that contracts their growth, right?

/Maybe they agreed to slow their growth by limiting the number of factories we can build there?

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:38:54pm

re: #89 recusancy

Got a "nutshell" of what he said?

92 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:30pm

Under the five-nation agreement, rich and poor nations had agreed to a "finance mechanism," emissions cuts to curb global warming to 2 degrees Celsius, and "to provide information on the implementation of their actions."

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

93 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:38pm

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't have the answer to that. I was just correcting the figure that the US is commited to.

94 recusancy  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:40pm

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Got a "nutshell" of what he said?

Not really. I'm sure Charles will put the video up once it's avail.

95 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #86 blueraven

We offered 10 billion, SS Clinton said that the US would help to raise the total amount of 100 billion.

10 - 100 - whatever. Crank up the presses.

96 researchok  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:40:32pm

re: #87 albusteve

the principles don't either I imagine...yet

Agreed- and therein lies the problem.

Political ideology now trumps substance.

97 researchok  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:41:16pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

Under the five-nation agreement, rich and poor nations had agreed to a "finance mechanism," emissions cuts to curb global warming to 2 degrees Celsius, and "to provide information on the implementation of their actions."

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

How about real oversight?

98 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:41:30pm

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Where we getting ten billion? Who's gonna get it?

It'll be in a brown paper bag in unmarked bills in the trash can next to a park bench. If there is more than one person sitting on thbench, ask for Vinnie or Mugsy!

99 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:41:57pm

The accord calls for the participating countries to list specific actions they have taken to control emissions and the commitments they are willing to make to achieve deeper reductions.

There would be a method for verifying reductions of heat-trapping gases, a senior administration official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity before Obama made his comments.

Obama said the five nation's pledges would be "subject to an international consultation" that will allow each country to "show the world what they're doing."

China's resistance to a verification mechanism had been one of the major sticking points for the U.S. during the two weeks of climate negotiations here.

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

100 exelwood  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:42:43pm

How wonderful! It looked like COP15 was going to be an embarrassing collapse for days and now success! If we can just make Can and Trade the law of the land we will be racing toward a CO2 free future!

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:42:54pm

I'm listening to MSNBC (ugh) from the other room, and noted monarchist Pat Buchanan is on Hardballz categorically denying everything about AGW, raising his voice as he's challenged. "It's a scam it's a fraud, blurgh blurgh..."

102 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:43:07pm

re: #19 sattv4u2

Again,, depends on whats in it, why it's "weak" and IF it can be amended

If you and I were to enter an agreement that was advantageous to you, and not so much to me, would you be willing to amend it later?

Sorry it took so long to get to this. You could very well be right, but it's hard for me to believe that everyone is going to act in bad faith. Plus, it isn't one country against another, but multiple countries trying to come to a consensus. You might not want to budge from your position by might do it is a third or fourth party was in on the negotiations. Is that clear enough?

103 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:43:38pm

re: #100 exelwood

How wonderful! It looked like COP15 was going to be an embarrassing collapse for days and now success! If we can just make Can and Trade the law of the land we will be racing toward a CO2 free future!

You been too close to an SUV tailpipe recently?

104 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:44:59pm

re: #101 WindUpBird

I'm listening to MSNBC (ugh) from the other room, and noted monarchist Pat Buchanan is on Hardballz categorically denying everything about AGW, raising his voice as he's challenged. "It's a scam it's a fraud, blurgh blurgh..."

Are you sure they weren't talking about the Holocaust?

105 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:45:24pm

the Chuinese are well known liars and cheats


re: #96 researchok

Agreed- and therein lies the problem.

Political ideology now trumps substance.

106 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:45:47pm

re: #102 Kewalo

Sorry it took so long to get to this. You could very well be right, but it's hard for me to believe that everyone is going to act in bad faith. Plus, it isn't one country against another, but multiple countries trying to come to a consensus. You might not want to budge from your position by might do it is a third or fourth party was in on the negotiations. Is that clear enough?

Oh PuhLEEZZ

Every country looks out for their own self interest, #1,2, and 3. Yes, some nations are more benevolent than others, but this wasn;'t a Kumbaya , gather round the campfire meeting. Did you not hear Chavez> Did you not see the "developing nations" kick their feet?

107 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:48:25pm

got a shiny new pc...gotta figure this thing out...IE7 or whatever it is...stuff is different, I hate that

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:48:29pm

re: #105 albusteve

the Chuinese are well known liars and cheats

I wouldn't trust that Lo Pan, certainly!

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:48:35pm
110 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:49:00pm

re: #105 albusteve

the Chuinese are well known liars and cheats

Well, there's that. It's what made Kyoto a farce. Not just China, but all signatories failed to achieve their promised reductions, and most didn't even try all that much. Russia was the most honest; they said publicly that there were signing it for form's sake but had no intention of actually implementing any of it.

What will matter are actual results. The prospect of seeing any is, frankly, dim.

This looks like what we call an "agreement to agree" at work. Which at least guarantees another long round of meetings and free lunches in the near future.

111 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:49:31pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

I wouldn't trust that Lo Pan, certainly!

[Video]

heh...atleast i can play vids now

112 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:50:30pm

Just finished a photo shoot for the NY Times profile...

113 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:50:54pm

re: #107 albusteve

Mrs. Odahi just got a new laptop with Windows 7. It's nice, but I have a bunch of old games that won't run on it. Of course, that would be a good excuse to buy new games! But it's HER new laptop, my old one is still chugging along, running all my old games.

114 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:50:59pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

The accord calls for the participating countries to list specific actions they have taken to control emissions and the commitments they are willing to make to achieve deeper reductions.

There would be a method for verifying reductions of heat-trapping gases, a senior administration official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity before Obama made his comments.

Obama said the five nation's pledges would be "subject to an international consultation" that will allow each country to "show the world what they're doing."

China's resistance to a verification mechanism had been one of the major sticking points for the U.S. during the two weeks of climate negotiations here.

[Link: www.denverpost.com...]

It looks to me like we got China to agree to some accountability, and that's a start... Something we will be able to build on later, but we should be glad we've gotten this breakthrough.

115 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:51:09pm

re: #107 albusteve

got a shiny new pc...gotta figure this thing out...IE7 or whatever it is...stuff is different, I hate that

Don't use IE.

Download Google Chrome (awesome) or Firefox (I think it's slightly less awesome but really still awesome anyway) or Safari (Awesome too).

IE sucks.

116 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:51:11pm

re: #111 albusteve

Congratulations on the new PC!

117 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:51:52pm

re: #112 Charles

Just finished a photo shoot for the NY Times profile...

Which side of the camera were you on!?!?

(j/k ,, congrats!!)

118 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:52:06pm

re: #110 SixDegrees

Well, there's that. It's what made Kyoto a farce. Not just China, but all signatories failed to achieve their promised reductions, and most didn't even try all that much. Russia was the most honest; they said publicly that there were signing it for form's sake but had no intention of actually implementing any of it.

What will matter are actual results. The prospect of seeing any is, frankly, dim.

This looks like what we call an "agreement to agree" at work. Which at least guarantees another long round of meetings and free lunches in the near future.

China has not looked out for anybody but themselves in 3000 years...we have to find out what's in it for them...I am very skeptical of all this cash moving around hither and yon

119 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:54:17pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

BTLC DING!

120 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:54:18pm

re: #113 Odahi

Mrs. Odahi just got a new laptop with Windows 7. It's nice, but I have a bunch of old games that won't run on it. Of course, that would be a good excuse to buy new games! But it's HER new laptop, my old one is still chugging along, running all my old games.


I was thinking laptop but I choked...I like my wireless stuff so I can post while sprawling with my feet up, drink in hand etc...big ass monitor...I'm rockin

121 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:54:40pm

re: #112 Charles

Thomas Munita by any chance?

122 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:55:23pm

re: #112 Charles

First I've heard of that. Congrats!

Well-deserved.

123 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:55:25pm

re: #115 Summer

Don't use IE.

Download Google Chrome (awesome) or Firefox (I think it's slightly less awesome but really still awesome anyway) or Safari (Awesome too).

IE sucks.

I just plugged it in...might as well see what it can do

124 blueraven  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:55:35pm

re: #114 Sharmuta

re: #114 Sharmuta

Absolutely! This thing could have blown up, with nothing accomplished. As you say, it's a start.

125 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:55:43pm

Oooh. With a $60,000 Hasselblad. Drool.

126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:55:56pm

re: #114 Sharmuta

I'll believe it when I see it.

127 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:56:22pm

re: #123 albusteve

I just plugged it in...might as well see what it can do

Famous last words. =)

Don't use IE. Friends don't let friends use IE. =)

128 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:56:33pm

re: #112 Charles

Just finished a photo shoot for the NY Times profile...


I did photo shoots before...mug shots actually

129 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:56:41pm

re: #125 Charles

$60,000 Hasselbald

Whassat?

130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:56:47pm

re: #125 Charles

that a camera?

131 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:56:49pm

re: #120 albusteve

I have a little, old laptop in the living room, the monster machine is in the den- it's a little old, now, but it was top-of-the-line when I bought it. It still hums right along.

132 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:57:23pm

re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

that a camera?

The best professional camera known to man

133 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:57:23pm

re: #129 allegro

re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

that a camera?

yup

VERY hightech/ professional

134 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:57:36pm

re: #129 allegro

Whassat?

A beautiful camera for medium or large format pictures.

It's also the lenses they used when going to the moon to take all those beautiful pictures.

135 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:58:07pm

re: #127 Summer

Famous last words. =)

Don't use IE. Friends don't let friends use IE. =)

thanks...I'm familiar with other browzers

136 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:58:57pm

re: #133 sattv4u2

re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

yup

VERY hightech/ professional

Yea it's what photogs use when you model for glossy professional magazines in a studio session.

137 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:58:59pm

re: #69 Odahi

I'm in favor of alternative energy, if it doesn't pollute worse than what it replaces (check out what's in Li-Ion batteries, and what they do to get it, and where it goes when they die). The batteries used in much solar technology are REALLY bad news. Plug-in hybrids? Where do we get all that extra electricity? More coal plants? More oil from our good buddies the Saudis and that ilk? I'm definitely in favor of energy independence, low environmental impact, and sustainability. Which technologies will give those to us? Personally, I favor LOTS more nuclear power plants. Check the U. S. Navy's record on safe use of nuclear power. The latest designs are cleaner, safer, and more efficient. THAT is independence we can all live with.

What we should have is a manhattan project to perfect the orbiting solar panels. This technology could actually supply power to the whole world. Right now they say it will be 10-20 yrs to perfect...I think it doesn't have to be that long.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Discovery channel had a show on it where the researchers were trying to send the power via microwaves between Haleakala and the big island.

[Link: www.yourdiscovery.com...]

138 Bob Dillon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:59:12pm

re: #118 albusteve

China has not looked out for anybody but themselves in 3000 years...we have to find out what's in it for them...I am very skeptical of all this cash moving around hither and yon

Heh - get all the money you can from others. Agree to anything then pull out the Iran Mullah Nuclear Playbook - bamboozles even the best minds at the UN. Drag it out forever.

And I'm willing to be wrong -

139 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:59:13pm

Thanks for the camera answers. I can now say I know something that I didn't know 15 minutes ago. :)

140 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:00:09pm

re: #132 HoosierHoops

The best professional camera known to man

Depends. For photojournalism, you use a Leica. =)

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:01:06pm

re: #136 Summer

Yea it's what photogs use when you model for glossy professional magazines in a studio session.

Think Charles showed them the "Magnum" or "Blue Steel"?

142 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:02:05pm

re: #137 Kewalo

I don't know about the whole idea. Seems like we would have to have a LOT of launches to put up enough panels to do much. But they would also act as an umbrella and reduce warming...

143 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:02:10pm

Hasselblad's glory is the glass. Carl Zeiss. The best in the world. Yes we drool without shame.

144 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:02:35pm

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Think Charles showed them the "Magnum" or "Blue Steel"?

I have my own called "Sweet" and it can not only stop a shuriken dagger in mid air, but turn it back on the evil ninja and strike where it counts. =)

145 elizajane  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:04:13pm

OK, what's happened to that formerly serious newspaper, the Washington Post, and its readership? After publishing endless anti-AGW editorials, including the infamous Sarah Palin manifesto, they now deigned to publish a rebuttal by Michael Mann of Penn State, and the comments are enough to make a Hot Air reader cringe. I read about 150 comments and of them, only two were to any degree favorable to Mann, to climate science, or to science in general.
Filled me with dismay.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

(I'm sure there is a better way of linking but I'm pretty new at this)

146 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:04:31pm

re: #106 sattv4u2

Oh PuhLEEZZ

Every country looks out for their own self interest, #1,2, and 3. Yes, some nations are more benevolent than others, but this wasn;'t a Kumbaya , gather round the campfire meeting. Did you not hear Chavez> Did you not see the "developing nations" kick their feet?

Oh Puhleezz yourself. Do you think this is the first time that something like this has happened? We managed to get a pretty good Geneva Convention and Marshall plan...do you think those were Kumbaya moments? This BS that's happening isn't the first time, nor is it the last.

147 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:04:47pm

Neo-Nazi Convicted By Us Jury In Va.

A federal jury in Virginia has found a white supremacist guilty of four counts of making online threats.

Jurors deliberating in Roanoke returned their verdict Friday against William A. White. They also found him not guilty of three counts.

The head of a Roanoke neo-Nazi group, White was found guilty on charges that in one case involved threats intended to prevent residents of a Virginia Beach apartment complex from giving testimony in a housing discrimination case.

White's attorneys had argued in U.S. District Court that his e-mails and online postings were protected by the First Amendment.

White faces a maximum of 40 years in prison on the four convictions. A sentencing date has not been scheduled.

148 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:05:22pm

NYT has some great photographers.
I'll be curious who did the shoot too.

149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:05:56pm

re: #144 Summer

I'm just glad somebody got it.

150 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:05:57pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

WONDERFUL!

Think Stacy will visit him?

151 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:06:14pm

I haven't been following the farce in Copenhagen as closely as some lizards have been- just out of curiosity, how often has the phrase 'climate justice' [the distant bastard stepchild of 'social justice' and 'economic justice's' sloppy, drunken, awkward and ultimately unfulfilling one-night stand] been thrown around?

152 webevintage  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:06:20pm

re: #6 samsgran1948

That's the money quote. Anything for a photo op.

I know, how dare the President of the United States make the announcement in front of the press!!111!!
Who does he think he is?
The President of the United States or something?
/

153 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:06:54pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

Neo-Nazi Convicted By Us Jury In Va.

I hope all his meals are prepared and labeled by Manichevitz.

On the upside, he probably would bust a vein so fast that he wouldn't have to linger around in jail for forty years.

154 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:06:54pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

Neo-Nazi Convicted By Us Jury In Va.


40 year max!...whoa nellie

155 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:07:26pm

re: #146 Kewalo

Exactly how many nations that the US Armed forces engeged in combat abided by the Geneva conventions since its implimentation?

156 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:07:53pm

I'll save my opinions on this agreement until someone tells me what noted climatologist Sarah Palin thinks about it.

157 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:09:06pm

re: #142 Odahi

I don't know about the whole idea. Seems like we would have to have a LOT of launches to put up enough panels to do much. But they would also act as an umbrella and reduce warming...

Well, sure, that's possible...but let your imagination soar and remember the size of the first computers.

158 webevintage  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:10:04pm

Looks like Palin and her facebook "death panels" have been voted the lie of the year by PolitiFact.
[Link: www.politifact.com...]

Runner up was Glen Beck and one of the nutty lies he spewed this year.

159 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:10:55pm

re: #158 webevintage

Looks like Palin and her facebook "death panels" have been voted the lie of the year by PolitiFact.

So soon? There are almost two weeks left...

160 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:11:18pm

Oh my, Basho......what was so objectionable about my 151?

161 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:11:48pm

re: #137 Kewalo

Building solar panels isn't too much of a problem, although they're still dismally inefficient. But even assuming efficiencies improve dramatically, there's the problem of getting them into orbit, which is horrendously expensive. Not to mention the carbon footprint of the huge number of rocket launches it would take to get them up there.

There are a lot of other problems as well, but hauling all that mass a couple hundred miles (or more) up is a real showstopper.

Over the next ten to twenty years, all sorts of things that are actually affordable and immediately workable can be done to improve the energy situation. Orbiting solar panels may have a place someday, but the cost/benefit ratio is simply too high for the moment.

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:12:43pm

re: #146 Kewalo

Marshall plan

Thanks for porving my point. European countries looking out for themsleves 1st, 2nd and 3rd, while a country (the USA) was more benevolent while STILL looking out for itself #1 (thwarting the Soviets from having influence in those countries)

163 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:12:51pm

re: #161 SixDegrees

Orbiting solar panels may have a place someday, but the cost/benefit ratio is simply too high for the moment.

And all those wires are so unsightly.//

164 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:12:57pm

re: #153 Summer

I hope all his meals are prepared and labeled by Manichevitz.

On the upside, he probably would bust a vein so fast that he wouldn't have to linger around in jail for forty years.

Is this Stacy McCain's pal?

165 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:16:20pm

re: #155 Fenway_Nation

Exactly how many nations that the US Armed forces engeged in combat abided by the Geneva conventions since its implimentation?

I actually don't give a shit if none of them ever did that's not my point. My point was if you'd been following from the beginning is that sometimes people give more immediately, then get more later. That's diplomacy and that's how it works and this is done through pressure from many groups debating the same things.

I do not discuss war.

166 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:16:54pm

re: #164 SixDegrees

Is this Stacy McCain's pal?

Yep.

167 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:17:42pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

Neo-Nazi Convicted By Us Jury In Va.

I just had to add:

It's a Hannukah Miracle! =)

168 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:18:30pm

re: #167 Summer

Thanks Hannukah Harry!

169 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:18:39pm

re: #160 Fenway_Nation

Oh my, Basho...what was so objectionable about my 151?


the best part of the Ding Experience...explaining it...seems like Basho went adrift somewhere

170 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:19:22pm

re: #165 Kewalo

I actually don't give a shit if none of them ever did that's not my point. My point was if you'd been following from the beginning is that sometimes people give more immediately, then get more later. That's diplomacy and that's how it works and this is done through pressure from many groups debating the same things.

I do not discuss war.

why not?...we are involved in one right now

171 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:20:11pm

re: #166 Summer

Yep.

Sweet.

172 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:20:28pm

re: #169 albusteve

the best part of the Ding Experience...explaining it...seems like Basho went adrift somewhere

Maybe goddamnedfrank can answer the same question about my #151 if Basho is being so Basho-ful......

173 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:21:00pm

re: #171 SixDegrees

Sweet.

Yep. =)

174 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:21:41pm

re: #170 albusteve

why not?...we are involved in one right now

Did we make one go away when I wasn't looking?

175 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:23:01pm

re: #161 SixDegrees

Building solar panels isn't too much of a problem, although they're still dismally inefficient. But even assuming efficiencies improve dramatically, there's the problem of getting them into orbit, which is horrendously expensive. Not to mention the carbon footprint of the huge number of rocket launches it would take to get them up there.

There are a lot of other problems as well, but hauling all that mass a couple hundred miles (or more) up is a real showstopper.

Over the next ten to twenty years, all sorts of things that are actually affordable and immediately workable can be done to improve the energy situation. Orbiting solar panels may have a place someday, but the cost/benefit ratio is simply too high for the moment.

How much does it cost to build a power plant? I don't think money enters into it at this point. Do you think they stopped and figured the cost/benefit ration before the Manhattan project?

I doubt there is anything you can say that would convince me that this isn't a good idea. I firmly believe that we could supply cheaper electricity to the world with this technology then building power plants all over the globe. I remember my first Texas Instuments calculator and how cool I thought it was...and it was a dinosaur.

176 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #174 allegro

Did we make one go away when I wasn't looking?

magic!...poof!, no more war

177 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:24:54pm

re: #175 Kewalo

I doubt there is anything you can say that would convince me that this isn't a good idea.

Well, then, there's nothing to talk about.

Enjoy that tightly closed mind of yours. I'm sure it's a sturdy fortress against the unpleasantries of reality.

178 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:25:00pm

re: #170 albusteve

Because it makes me unhappy. It's isn't just an intellectual discussion to me.

179 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:25:03pm

re: #176 albusteve

How cool would THAT be!

180 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:25:29pm

re: #176 albusteve

magic!...poof!, no more war

Behold the power of HopenChange&#8482 !!

181 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:25:46pm

re: #178 Kewalo

Because it makes me unhappy. It's isn't just an intellectual discussion to me.

Maybe you should jump up and down screaming, then.

182 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:25:46pm

re: #179 allegro

How cool would THAT be!


after I master my cards tricks, I'm gonna work on it

183 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:26:20pm

re: #182 albusteve

and rabbits... don't forget the rabbits

184 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:26:23pm

re: #178 Kewalo

Because it makes me unhappy. It's isn't just an intellectual discussion to me.

Man ,,, reality ,, IT SUCKS!!

LALALALALALALALA

185 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:26:59pm

re: #177 SixDegrees

Well, then, there's nothing to talk about.

Enjoy that tightly closed mind of yours. I'm sure it's a sturdy fortress against the unpleasantries of reality.

Oh? And who has the closed mind? That's pretty funny coming from someone who appears not to even consider it because of cost/benefits.

186 brookly red  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:27:19pm

re: #179 allegro

How cool would THAT be!

/while everyone was watching Copenhagen we snuck out Iraq?

187 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:27:31pm

re: #181 SixDegrees

Maybe you should jump up and down screaming, then.

And why don't you just go fuck yourself.

188 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:27:49pm

re: #184 sattv4u2

Man ,,, reality ,, IT SUCKS!!

LALALALALALALALA

I'd rather discuss shooting plasma space balls into my outlets

189 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:28:42pm

re: #157 Kewalo

/disclosure: I work in the industry, and am a space geek from waay back.

There is only so much solar energy falling on each square meter of any surface. It will take a LOT of square meters to provide the petawatts of energy we need now/will need in the near future. Also, the Shuttle is due to be retired. Constellation/Ares/Orion/etc will not be available in numbers for at least ten years, probably much longer. Aside from the environmental impact of the launches, their expense will be considerable. I am all in favor of Solar Power Satellites, but wonder how people will react to huge beams of microwaves shooting down from space. Not that there is any danger, but people are easily spooked. OMG!!We'll have fried chicken falling from teh sky!!! Look at all the fallout (pun intended) from Three Mile Island. Look up the statistics on deaths from TMI, don't take my word for it, but that minor hiccup killed nuclear power in this country for what, thirty years? And we're just starting to take the first faltering steps toward a national nuclear power grid again.

190 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:28:43pm

re: #188 albusteve

I'd rather discuss shooting plasma space balls into my outlets

There's something disturbingly kinky about that.

191 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:29:21pm

re: #187 Kewalo

And why don't you just go fuck yourself.

DINGDINGDINGDING DING

Button pushed,, irrational name calling engaged

Must Not Talk Of Unpleasnatries!!

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING

192 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:30:02pm

re: #185 Kewalo

Oh? And who has the closed mind? That's pretty funny coming from someone who appears not to even consider it because of cost/benefits.

The developed nations like the USA, Canada, Japan and the EU shovel money to 3rd world despots like Mugabe or Al-Bashir?

What's the possible downside!?
///

193 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:30:17pm

I do not discuss the Cowboys...it is unpleasant for me

194 windsagio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:30:57pm

re: #176 albusteve

re: #181 SixDegrees

re: #184 sattv4u2

re: #191 sattv4u2

So... Guy is discussiong diplomacy, and you use the "BUT THERES A WAR GOING ON" canard to try to get him offpoint. He refuses, and really doesn't wanna talk about it, so you spend the next 10 minutes mocking him about it. You taunt him till he loses his cool, then mock him some more!

Stay classy, guys.

195 ryannon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:31:18pm

re: #12 sattv4u2

Not all "agreements" are good things. I'm hopeful, but I'd rather no agreement than a bad one!

Let's agree to disagree. We can call it an 'agreement' to satisfy the media and those incapable of critical analysis.

196 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:31:19pm

re: #190 allegro

There's something disturbingly kinky about that.

it's electrifying

197 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:31:28pm

re: #189 Odahi

Really? Because I like fried chicken.

198 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:31:55pm

re: #185 Kewalo

It may be hard to believe, but someone has to pay for these things. Magic pixie dust only goes so far.

199 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:32:25pm

re: #187 Kewalo

And why don't you just go fuck yourself.

Wow....that was classless and objectionable. I'm sure good little progressives like Basho or goddamnedfrank will downding that petulant outburst post-haste.

200 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:32:35pm

re: #194 windsagio

re: #181 SixDegrees

re: #184 sattv4u2

re: #191 sattv4u2

So... Guy is discussiong diplomacy, and you use the "BUT THERES A WAR GOING ON" canard to try to get him offpoint. He refuses, and really doesn't wanna talk about it, so you spend the next 10 minutes mocking him about it. You taunt him till he loses his cool, then mock him some more!

Stay classy, guys.

SWINGANDAMISS

HE brought the Geneva Convention into the discussion. Am I missing something? Was there ANOTHER Geneva convention he was talking about!?!?

No Balls,,, One Strike

201 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:33:15pm

re: #187 Kewalo

And why don't you just go fuck yourself.

That's the spirit! Remarks like that totally take the discussion out of the intellectual realm you said you're trying to avoid! Nicely played!

/

202 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:33:42pm

re: #172 Fenway_Nation

Maybe goddamnedfrank can answer the same question about my #151 if Basho is being so Basho-ful...

Simple, you came off as a snide dipshit obstructionist with nothing interesting to add beyond deriding any potential expansion of applied justice as a virtue. Your post was a complete fuck-faced non-thought, thanks for asking.

203 ryannon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:33:47pm

re: #26 Obdicut

It'll be worth $1, anyway.

And about 0.46 cents in euroland money.

Damn, but I'm in a foul mood tonight.

204 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:33:51pm

re: #194 windsagio

You taunt him till he loses his cool, then mock him some more

AND ,,, I learned a LONG time ago

You say something to/ about me,, that a YOU problem
I respond badly,, thats a ME problem

205 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:34:04pm

re: #194 windsagio

re: #181 SixDegrees

re: #184 sattv4u2

re: #191 sattv4u2

So... Guy is discussiong diplomacy, and you use the "BUT THERES A WAR GOING ON" canard to try to get him offpoint. He refuses, and really doesn't wanna talk about it, so you spend the next 10 minutes mocking him about it. You taunt him till he loses his cool, then mock him some more!

Stay classy, guys.

brick

206 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:35:38pm

re: #199 Fenway_Nation

Well I won't, because I'm neither good nor little. But downdinging is something I just can't get behind on any level. Besides, I love a good Interwebs fuck you fight, regardless of who's waging it.

207 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:35:54pm

re: #202 goddamnedfrank

Simple, you came off as a snide dipshit obstructionist with nothing interesting to add beyond deriding any potential expansion of applied justice as a virtue. Your post was a complete fuck-faced non-thought, thanks for asking.

hey frank, relax

208 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:36:17pm

re: #200 sattv4u2

SWINGANDAMISS

HE brought the Geneva Convention into the discussion. Am I missing something? Was there ANOTHER Geneva convention he was talking about!?!?

No Balls,,, One Strike

There were actually several Geneva Conventions. But I'm pretty sure he was referring to them collectively. That's what everyone else does.

And I wasn't even participating in the whole war thing; not sure how my handle got on the list, there.

209 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:37:26pm

re: #208 SixDegrees

There were actually several Geneva Conventions. But I'm pretty sure he was referring to them collectively. That's what everyone else does.

And I wasn't even participating in the whole war thing; not sure how my handle got on the list, there.

you were there...your guilty....Ludwigs Rule #1

210 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:38:00pm

re: #202 goddamnedfrank

Simple, you came off as a snide dipshit obstructionist with nothing interesting to add beyond deriding any potential expansion of applied justice as a virtue. Your post was a complete fuck-faced non-thought, thanks for asking.

And what exactly am I obstructing again? 'Applied justice'?

Here's a question for you......if a group of people were in favor of eroding rights and liberties or imposing their beliefs on the populace in general, would they come right out and say so or would they give it a nifty little codephrase with a 'justice' suffix so it can sound great and wondrous and how could anybody possible be opposed to it?

211 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:38:11pm

re: #208 SixDegrees

There were actually several Geneva Conventions. But I'm pretty sure he was referring to them collectively. That's what everyone else does.

And I wasn't even participating in the whole war thing; not sure how my handle got on the list, there.

Your 181 You were "mocking him" according to Windsagio!

212 ryannon  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:38:50pm

re: #53 Cato the Elder

I'm doing another meditation retreat, this time in the Mojave Desert. December 21 through January 5. Decided to drive because I've never done the Kerouac thing before.

Just stick out your thumb, old boy. It's the authentic way to do it.

213 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:40:05pm

re: #197 Jeff In Ohio

I like fried chicken too.

214 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #213 Odahi

If we make it fried okra, I'm in.

215 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:41:07pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

Your 181 You were "mocking him" according to Windsagio!

Why, yes, I was mocking him. For his comment that I was responding to.

Gotta love guilt by association. Can't we use that to our advantage and blame Canada for global warming?

216 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:41:11pm

re: #214 allegro

Whatever tastes good.

217 windsagio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:41:34pm

re: #208 SixDegrees

Maybe I misunderstood 181. His response makes me think Kewalo did too.

Explain what you meant maybe?

I'm all ready to apologize if I had you wrong!

218 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:41:47pm

re: #209 albusteve

you were there...your guilty...Ludwigs Rule #1

I'm a bad, bad man.

219 albusteve  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:42:35pm

re: #218 SixDegrees

I'm a bad, bad man.

worse than a Nork even

220 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:42:50pm

re: #217 windsagio

Maybe I misunderstood 181. His response makes me think Kewalo did too.

Explain what you meant maybe?

I'm all ready to apologize if I had you wrong!

Explained, above. #181, with it's quote and response, is completely self contained.

221 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:42:54pm

re: #214 allegro

If we make it fried okra, I'm in.

Can't it be both? Why must we choose between the sweet succulence of fried chicken and the smooth tenderness of fried okra? Is there a reason why fried food can not JUST GET ALONG?

And throw in some cold beer.

222 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:43:01pm

re: #206 Jeff In Ohio

I'm not above downdinging myself,,,

but so far, nobody's attempted to answer my question about the use of the phrase 'climate justice' [which as far as I know isn't made-up].

223 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:43:09pm

re: #189 Odahi

/disclosure: I work in the industry, and am a space geek from waay back.

There is only so much solar energy falling on each square meter of any surface. It will take a LOT of square meters to provide the petawatts of energy we need now/will need in the near future. Also, the Shuttle is due to be retired. Constellation/Ares/Orion/etc will not be available in numbers for at least ten years, probably much longer. Aside from the environmental impact of the launches, their expense will be considerable. I am all in favor of Solar Power Satellites, but wonder how people will react to huge beams of microwaves shooting down from space. Not that there is any danger, but people are easily spooked. OMG!!We'll have fried chicken falling from teh sky!!! Look at all the fallout (pun intended) from Three Mile Island. Look up the statistics on deaths from TMI, don't take my word for it, but that minor hiccup killed nuclear power in this country for what, thirty years? And we're just starting to take the first faltering steps toward a national nuclear power grid again.

I'm sure that everything you say is true, I do not work in the industry. It just may be that they find that microwaves won't be the most efficient way to bring it down to earth. Plus, I have a feeling that the public shout out about it wouldn't be any worse then what we hear about nuclear.

And while it's true that many meters of solar panels will be needed, remember they will work 24 hours a day. I still think it's a great idea and I'm delighted that the US and Japan are working on it right now.

224 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:43:20pm

re: #219 albusteve

worse than a Nork even

Much worse.

225 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:43:50pm

re: #215 SixDegrees

Why, yes, I was mocking him. For his comment that I was responding to.

Gotta love guilt by association. Can't we use that to our advantage and blame Canada for global warming?

I'm going with Greenland

A), they don;'t have as large a standing army as Canada, so if war breaks out ((damn me,,, talking about WAR again))
B) They MUST be the cause! C'Mon ,,, GREENland,,, where THEY are !?!?!? feh !!

226 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:44:03pm

re: #221 Jeff In Ohio

I'm a vegetarian, but I'll fight to the death your right to eat a poor defenseless li'l bird./

227 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:44:19pm

re: #225 sattv4u2

I'm going with Greenland

A), they don;'t have as large a standing army as Canada, so if war breaks out ((damn me,,, talking about WAR again))
B) They MUST be the cause! C'Mon ,,, GREENland,,, where THEY are !?!?!? feh !!

Works for me.

228 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:46:33pm

re: #194 windsagio

re: #181 SixDegrees

re: #184 sattv4u2

re: #191 sattv4u2

So... Guy is discussiong diplomacy, and you use the "BUT THERES A WAR GOING ON" canard to try to get him offpoint. He refuses, and really doesn't wanna talk about it, so you spend the next 10 minutes mocking him about it. You taunt him till he loses his cool, then mock him some more!

Stay classy, guys.

Thank you very much. I was asked a question and answered honestly.

And BTW I am a woman and believe me I felt very calm when I told him to go fuck himself for making fun of me for an honest answer. But I sure do appreciate you speaking up.

229 windsagio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:47:20pm

re: #220 SixDegrees

Good lord, that makes no sense at all!


However, I'm breaking my personal rule about not going off into these meta- discussions. You guys enjoy your circle-jerk.

230 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:48:01pm

re: #223 Kewalo

I'm excited for anything that will increase human presence in space. I just think it's going to take a long time before we start getting significant amounts of power from satellites. I'd like to see us develop cheap, easy fusion power, too, and someday we will. Keep doing the research, working toward it. I just don't expect it to make us self-sufficient within the next twenty years or so. I'd love to be proved wrong, though.

231 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:48:11pm

re: #229 windsagio

Good lord, that makes no sense at all!


However, I'm breaking my personal rule about not going off into these meta- discussions. You guys enjoy your circle-jerk.

Someone say something about "stay classy" !?!?!

232 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:48:16pm

re: #222 Fenway_Nation

I'm not above downdinging myself,,,

but so far, nobody's attempted to answer my question about the use of the phrase 'climate justice' [which as far as I know isn't made-up].

shrugs

233 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:51:15pm

re: #229 windsagio

Good lord, that makes no sense at all!

Made sense to him, judging by his response.

234 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:53:17pm

re: #229 windsagio

Good lord, that makes no sense at all!


However, I'm breaking my personal rule about not going off into these meta- discussions. You guys enjoy your circle-jerk.

Wow...that personal rule sounds about as sacrosanct as George Monbiot's vow to never fly again.

/Hopefully he was flying first class. I mean if you're a frothy, shireking, sanctimonious hypocritical moonbat, you might as well do it in style!

235 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:53:28pm

re: #233 SixDegrees

Made sense to him, judging by his response.

Sense

The Final Frontier
These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no man has gone before.


(heh ,,, like how I tied in the space discussion above WITH the sense discussion!))

236 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:55:00pm

re: #222 Fenway_Nation

on the other hand

237 Odahi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:56:32pm

Uh oh- coffee is empty. I'll see you nice people later. Stay scaly!

238 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:57:23pm

re: #237 Odahi

Heh.....I'm no more than three feet away from the coffeemaker.

That's the good news. The bad news is all that's left is decaf.

239 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:58:50pm

re: #236 Jeff In Ohio

Did you hit me with this one yet?

240 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:04:15pm

re: #230 Odahi

I'm excited for anything that will increase human presence in space. I just think it's going to take a long time before we start getting significant amounts of power from satellites. I'd like to see us develop cheap, easy fusion power, too, and someday we will. Keep doing the research, working toward it. I just don't expect it to make us self-sufficient within the next twenty years or so. I'd love to be proved wrong, though.

In my first post I said I didn't think that the research would be done within 10-20 years. And I can't even imagine the time it take to make us self sufficient. That actually is totally beyond my imagination and I have a good one. But I will still keep bringing it up because although you might know about it, and think about it, a lot of people don't. So, I plug along, posting links, hoping that other people will think about it too.

IMO we're going to have a terrible time trying to change people's mind about nuclear. I'm the kind of gal that when the mother ship was being loaded at the end of "Close Encounters..." I wanted to stand up in the theater and yell, "take me with you!" Nice talking to you and thanks for the info.

241 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:08:59pm

re: #239 Fenway_Nation

I did. They have a section on "What is Cliamte Justice" I linked to above. This is probably what your getting at. The key word on this site is not 'Climate' or 'Justice', but probably 'Mobilization'. Having been part of 'Mobilization For Survival' in the late 70's/early 80's in NYC, these are groups usually made up of young idealists who sense an inequality, but are unsure how to obviate it, communists, socialists and Stalinist with clear political/economic objectives and black guard anarchists are just pissed about one thing or another and want to break shit.

But to me when you tag something with 'justice' it tends to be more an aspirational term, then a catch all and can have a variety of meanings from the watch dogs of the first link, to the income re-distributors of the 2nd link to some Franciscan nuns I worked with in the mid 80s in North Carolina who were focused on compassion and not a political polemic.

242 William of Orange  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:25:48pm

re: #37 Obdicut

What about the compromise that allowed a certain Orangish gentleman to assume the throne of England?

Well, it brought a century of conflict to Ireland....

243 Locker  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:31:21pm

First steps are good. Can't do it all at once and most projects and efforts are modified significantly along the way. We (humans) need more practice at accurate interpreting information and actively reacting (and some day actually being proactive) to the constantly changing situation called "life on earth". It's all just practice.

244 pyrodoctor  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:57:59pm

re: #69 Odahi

I favor LOTS more nuclear power plants. Check the U. S. Navy's record on safe use of nuclear power. The latest designs are cleaner, safer, and more efficient. THAT is independence we can all live with.

Agreed. Even though I'm not sure about AGW, our energy usage is unsustainable and there is a definite convergence between most of what we should do IF AGW is real and what we should do anyway because sustainable energy is in our long term national interest. As long as we don't enact stupid policies because of it, carbon emissions make a useful surrogate for our degree of energy independence.

245 FriarsTale  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 7:15:28am

Mark Steyn socks it to the UN Warm-Mongers once again:
Your text to link...

Remember that story a couple of weeks ago about how Danish prostitutes were offering free sex to Copenhagen delegates for the duration of the conference? I initially assumed it was just an amusing marketing cash-in by savvy Nordic strumpets. But no, the local "sex workers union" Sexarbejdernes Interesseorganisation, was responding to the municipal government's campaign to discourage attendees from partaking of prostitutes. The City of Copenhagen distributed cards to every hotel room showing a lady of the evening at a seedy street corner over the slogan "BE SUSTAINABLE: Don't Buy Sex."

"Be sustainable"? Prostitution happens to be legal in Copenhagen, and the "sex workers" understandably were peeved at being lumped into the same category as such planet wreckers as Big Oil, car manufacturers, travel agents and other notorious pariahs. So Big Sex decided not to take it lying down. Yet in an odd way, that municipal postcard gets to the heart of what's going on: Government can - and will - use a "sustainable" environment as a pretext for anything that tickles its fancy.

246 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:37:17am

re: #245 FriarsTale

It's amazing how Steyn finds the time to write in between denying evolution.

247 mousseman  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:49:07pm

Looks like Obama has an election incoming next year. If he pushes through whatever reduction that will have a fallout on jobs and unemployment, he's not going to be even a 1-term president, but a 0.5 term president with a GOP-held senate.

And then, that halo that's been hovering over his head will be gone.

It's simple Realpolitik for him. And for China. And for quite a few other countries.

248 karmasherabwangchuk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:36:02pm

re: #100 exelwood

doesn't look like you are getting a lot of love here but I for one agree w/ your assessment. copenhagen hooorah!!!!!!! What a farce.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
2 days ago
Views: 100 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 263 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1