Nelson Agrees to Sign Health Bill, Malkin’s Commenters Call for His Death

After holding out for months to insert anti-abortion restrictions into the Senate’s health care reform legislation, Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Nebraska) is apparently now ready to sign the bill: With Nelson on board, health-care bill could pass by Christmas.

Sen. Ben Nelson (Neb.), the final Democratic holdout on health care, announced to his colleagues Saturday morning that he would support the Senate reform bill, clearing the way for final passage by Christmas of President Obama’s top domestic policy priority.

Asked if he had secured the 60 votes needed to overcome a Republican filibuster, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (Nev.) told reporters, “It seems that way.”

Commenters at Michelle Malkin’s blog are taking this hard. In fact, they’re calling for Nelson to be murdered.

On December 19th, 2009 at 12:09 pm, southdakotaboy said:

What needs to be done is the people of Nebraska need to meet Nelson at his home in Nebraska at Christmas time. They need to bring rocks, torches, and signs. They then need to tell him that if he votes to break the next fillabuster for any reason he won’t have a home to come back to and that if he does come back they will use the rope to decorate a tree with him.

We need to get blunt with these traitors. They need to be put if free of their lives to remind them that they work for us or we reserve not only the right to vote them out but the right to kill them.

[…]

On December 19th, 2009 at 12:58 pm, tiredofit08 said:

tar, feathers, stockades, pitchforks, tourches, if that doesn’t work…well 1775/1776 were very bad year’s for tyrants….

[…]

On December 19th, 2009 at 1:27 pm, tevans776 said:

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. … God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” ~ Thomas Jefferson, 1787

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451 comments
1 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:55:28pm

This is the revanchists/xenophobes showing their true color: they are lynch mob.

2 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:57:01pm

The koslings are calling Lieberman and Nelson nazi collaborators.

3 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:58:08pm

re: #1 freetoken

Just Liberal plants.///

4 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:58:25pm

My niece is a personal aide to a senior senator... I wish I could share the emails she sent home re this bill. The pressure that was put on Nelson was immense and creative... one theme was ' if we're still all here at midnight Christmas Eve, it's your fault'.

5 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:59:04pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

Which illustrates quite well that the HotAir crowd and the DailyKos crowd are two peas in a pod.

These are infantile adults, allowed to act that way because the internet has become the great teething-ring of modern America.

6 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:59:12pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

The koslings are calling Lieberman and Nelson nazi collaborators.

That's nasty. But calling for someone to be lynched is a different level of crazy.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 12:59:31pm

Guess I need to practice talking to super far right wingers...

"Have you lost your flipping mind?"
"No, this isn't the end of America."
"Are you fucking batshit?

8 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:01:34pm

Riots would make everything better, apparently.

Do these people think they'd be any more than a riot, a bunch of thugs, a lynching party? Do they think being those things is moral?

9 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:01:49pm

Clearly Jefferson's idea of tyranny was for your political opponents to soundly defeat you in a democratic election and then for them to pass legislation.

10 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:02:07pm

I don't think Ben Nelson has enough constituents to pull off any sort of rebellion. This is Nebraska we're talking about here.

11 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:02:18pm

I am very much looking forward to hearing and seeing a moderate Republican of some stature (think Mitt Romney) throw his hat into the ring while making it quite clear that he is distancing himself from this lunacy of the far right. He will become a hero to moderates of both parties as well as the great independent center. I hope I am not STILL waiting for this to happen in 24 months.

12 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:02:41pm

re: #6 Charles

I wasn't trying to equate them. Just trying to point out other craziness.

13 avanti  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:03:39pm

Hot Air has gone over the top too. One poster suggested taking out senators with a .30/06, another suggested if the military resisted the upcoming revolution that you target the officers.

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:03:46pm

Also - it's interesting to note that other Kos commenters are calling out that Nazi comparison as being over the top.

Nobody even blinked an eye at Malkin's site about someone saying "we reserve not only the right to vote them out but the right to kill them."

15 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:05:01pm

Then again, every time someone utters ' drop dead', the person addressed doesn't exactly have a prima facie case against the speaker for making death threats.
Why take anything that the crazies say like this seriously? MM should delete that stuff from her site as it appears.

16 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:05:56pm

re: #5 freetoken

Which illustrates quite well that the HotAir crowd and the DailyKos crowd are two peas in a pod.

These are infantile adults, allowed to act that way because the internet has become the great teething-ring of modern America.

Amen, brother. Sad but all too true.

17 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:06:02pm

re: #5 freetoken

Which illustrates quite well that the HotAir crowd and the DailyKos crowd are two peas in a pod.

These are infantile adults, allowed to act that way because the internet has become the great teething-ring of modern America.

Yes- the extremes mirror each other well in tactics, if not sentiment.

18 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:06:10pm

re: #14 Charles

Very rarely do I visit DailyKos, but my impression is that in the large group over there teh crazy is just one component of the crowd.

OTOH, I've taken HotAir and PJM out of bookmarks as teh crazy now rules at those sites.

19 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:06:41pm

re: #15 tradewind

Then again, every time someone utters ' drop dead', the person addressed doesn't exactly have a prima facie case against the speaker for making death threats.

Uh, excuse me, but don't you think "we have the right to kill them" is just a teensy bit more extreme than saying "drop dead?"

MM should delete that stuff from her site as it appears.

And yet, she never does. Why do you think that is?

20 avanti  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:06:46pm

re: #14 Charles

Also - it's interesting to note that other Kos commenters are calling out that Nazi comparison as being over the top.

Nobody even blinked an eye at Malkin's site about someone saying "we reserve not only the right to vote them out but the right to kill them."

In fairness, a few posters on Hot Air called out the poster calling for political assassination, but others started discussing how to have a successful revolution.

21 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:06:46pm

re: #14 Charles

Also - it's interesting to note that other Kos commenters are calling out that Nazi comparison as being over the top.

Nobody even blinked an eye at Malkin's site about someone saying "we reserve not only the right to vote them out but the right to kill them."

it reminds me of the famous banner at the islamist rally that said "behead those that insult islam."

22 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:08:01pm

At some point anonymous blogging becomes hiding a felon. But any post can be traced to the particular hub or computer right? If it's a felony such as hate speech or physical threats it's well worth the effort. At some point webmasters should report the violators.

A law has been proposed to criminalize failing to report a violent crime you witness. We may someday see that for the web too state by state.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:08:23pm

I've been checking and checking my copy of the Constitution, and I just can't find the part where we have the right to kill our elected officials.

Little help here?

24 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:08:54pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been checking and checking my copy of the Constitution, and I just can't find the part where we have the right to kill our elected officials.

Little help here?

It's right next to the part about Jesus.

25 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:09:05pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Pursuit of Unhappiness?
//

26 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:09:45pm

re: #22 Rightwingconspirator

Really tough to prove that someone witnessed a post, though, unless they directly responded to it.

27 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #14 Charles

Also - it's interesting to note that other Kos commenters are calling out that Nazi comparison as being over the top.

Nobody even blinked an eye at Malkin's site about someone saying "we reserve not only the right to vote them out but the right to kill them."

There is one person saying it should be left to the Tea Parties, but there were others who agreed with the collaboration smear. I applaud the one person.

28 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:10:31pm

re: #13 avanti

That one just had to be worth following up on Law enforcement wise.

29 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:10:53pm

another gem,

On December 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pm, Boomer said:

"I believe we are rapidly approaching the point where only the Ammo box will stop this insanity. I no longer have any faith the US Constitution and the freedom it provides will be protected any other way."

30 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:11:00pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been checking and checking my copy of the Constitution, and I just can't find the part where we have the right to kill our elected officials.

Little help here?

it's right after the part where glenn beck tells everyone to buy gold ...

31 samsgran1948  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:11:08pm

As a Nebraskan, I will make certain Nelson knows I will never vote for him again (which I did in the past even though I am a Republican), and that I will eagerly help his opponent in his next election. However, death threats are beyond the pale.

32 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:11:33pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

There is one person saying it should be left to the Tea Parties, but there were others who agreed with the collaboration smear. I applaud the one person.

I'd Hide Rate it but I lost my trusted user status for making fun of the cat picture diaries.

33 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:12:12pm

re: #26 JasonA

I'd bet a lot of these idiots are loners at home. 1 person and 1 computer. Grab that computer and you get your proof. See what else might be on that hard drive.

34 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:12:13pm

re: #32 Conservative Moonbat

Oh don't get me started on those. Maybe I'm just cranky but they rub me the wrong way.

35 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:12:30pm

Seriously, can someone explain to me what's so scary about the health bill that people are willing to go to electric chair for?

36 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:12:34pm

re: #19 Charles
I wasn't measuring which death threat was craziest. I guess I don't consider most forms of 'kill them/drop dead' postings on forums as actual threats.... I suppose the authorities have their standards for deciding what is and is not. As to why MM doesn't delete those comments, I would say it shows laziness, lack of software, poor judgement, or a combination of all of those. Not knowing her, I would hope she doesn't think of them as encouragement for whipping up a frenzy.

37 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:12:46pm

Here's some relevant wording from the US Code, on inciting violence:

Here's the legal language:

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 19--CONSPIRACY

Sec. 373. Solicitation to commit a crime of violence

(a) Whoever, with intent that another person engage in conduct
constituting a felony that has as an element the use, attempted use, or
threatened use of physical force against property or against the person
of another in violation of the laws of the United States, and under
circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent, solicits, commands,
induces, or otherwise endeavors to persuade such other person to engage
in such conduct, shall be imprisoned not more than one-half the maximum
term of imprisonment or (notwithstanding section 3571) fined not more
than one-half of the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the
crime solicited, or both; or if the crime solicited is punishable by
life imprisonment or death, shall be imprisoned for not more than twenty
years.

38 avanti  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:13:55pm

re: #19 Charles

And yet, she never does. Why do you think that is?

This one is still up at Hot Air after 5 hours:


"Only 1 Senator needs to die
30-06 at 500yds ?

JoeAvg on December 19, 2009 at 11:38 AM"

39 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #34 JasonA

Are you JMA on there?

40 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:14:29pm

re: #37 Ojoe

Then they'd better get busy and send out some posses, because there's a mess of those out there.///

41 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:14:36pm

re: #32 Conservative Moonbat

I'd Hide Rate it but I lost my trusted user status for making fun of the cat picture diaries.

I think kos has improved a lot, and in no small part to LGF keeping their feet on the fire. It's sad to see the right wing blogs now need this same service.

However- I don't think the far-left has improved that much, and the smears at kos show that there are moonbats still lurking around. Just because most of teh crazy is on the right these days doesn't mean there is no crazy on the left anymore.

42 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:14:54pm

re: #33 Rightwingconspirator

I was responded to this part:

A law has been proposed to criminalize failing to report a violent crime you witness. We may someday see that for the web too state by state.

I want there to be a high bar for proving that someone was aware that something illegal had occurred on a forum they were browsing. I say that as someone who routinely skims and sometimes ignores some posts.

43 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:15:36pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been checking and checking my copy of the Constitution, and I just can't find the part where we have the right to kill our elected officials.

Little help here?

When they become traitors by being willing to vote to allow a vote on health care reform, doncha' know.
/

44 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:15:42pm

re: #40 tradewind

I hope and pray for the continuation of domestic tranquility.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:16:09pm

re: #29 SpaceJesus

another gem,

On December 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pm, Boomer said:

"I believe we are rapidly approaching the point where only the Ammo box will stop this insanity. I no longer have any faith the US Constitution and the freedom it provides will be protected any other way."

Now that is someone with no faith in the Constitution.

46 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:16:19pm

re: #39 recusancy

I know nothing... NOTHING!!

Well yeah.

47 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:16:58pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

Now that is someone with no faith in the Constitution.

or in prescription medication

48 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:17:00pm

Charles-
webmasters have some great tools available to scan text for certain phrases and words, right? It's not that difficult to filter or scan for threats is it?

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:17:21pm

re: #31 samsgran1948

As a Nebraskan, I will make certain Nelson knows I will never vote for him again (which I did in the past even though I am a Republican), and that I will eagerly help his opponent in his next election. However, death threats are beyond the pale.

Yeah, you're a wuss. Not voting for the guy, and supporting his opponent. What kind of good do you think THAT'S gonna do?

//

50 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:17:49pm

re: #44 Ojoe
Amen to that one.
And for maintaining the above, I would put policing internet ESAD wishes for politicians kind of... way down there.
:)

51 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:18:10pm

re: #47 SpaceJesus

or in prescription medication

Wellbutrin for all!

52 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

I think kos has improved a lot, and in no small part to LGF keeping their feet on the fire. It's sad to see the right wing blogs now need this same service.

However- I don't think the far-left has improved that much, and the smears at kos show that there are moonbats still lurking around. Just because most of teh crazy is on the right these days doesn't mean there is no crazy on the left anymore.

It's true that there's plenty of over the top language at Daily Kos.

But I don't recall ever seeing the kind of open calls for violence and murder that we're seeing on almost every right wing blog these days. And the kind of hate mail I've been getting from right wingers is also way WAY more extreme than anything I received from left wingers -- including threats.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:18:50pm

re: #35 Basho

Seriously, can someone explain to me what's so scary about the health bill that people are willing to go to electric chair for?

I, personally, can't.

54 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:09pm

re: #46 JasonA
Par-tay.
There used to be one named just that, didn't there?

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:10pm

re: #44 Ojoe

I hope and pray for the continuation of domestic tranquility.

Right behind you, bud.

56 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:13pm

My Senator (Joe Lieberman) is being treated very poorly here in liberal Connecticut. The venom directed at him by the editorial writers as well as the letters from the public is quite nauseating. Lieberman has a lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment in my opinion. But because he dares to buck the Democrat party and its reflexive need to support the Obama/Reid/Pelosi health care plan, he is villified on a daily basis. So I think it is useful to remember that the far right did NOT write the book when it comes to poor treatment of dissenters. I agree 100% with Charles that the level of vitriol from the far right is frightening and should be condemned without reservation. But it is also wrong to assume that ONLY the far right indulges in poor political behavior.

57 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:18pm

re: #52 Charles

It is better to be a hippie after all.

58 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:21pm

If you're not part of the Resistance against the socialization of another facet of American life (e.g. health care) then you're part of the problem...

///

59 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:35pm

re: #48 Rightwingconspirator

Charles-
webmasters have some great tools available to scan text for certain phrases and words, right? It's not that difficult to filter or scan for threats is it?

No, it's not difficult to find these comments. They're everywhere at Malkin and Hot Air. There's no excuse for letting this go on. They're not deleting the comments or banning these people because they either agree, or because they're deliberately pandering to this craziness.

Even after I've pointed out the comments calling for violence, very publicly here at LGF, they do nothing.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:44pm

re: #51 webevintage

Wellbutrin for all!

One nation, under God, medicated...

61 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:55pm

Maybe Lithium in the water supply is not such a bad idea.

/

62 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:20:56pm

re: #48 Rightwingconspirator

Charles-
webmasters have some great tools available to scan text for certain phrases and words, right? It's not that difficult to filter or scan for threats is it?

Yeah. But most good blogs have a community driven self policing mechanism in place. Something like how Charles has the exclamation point on posts so you can alert him to bad ones. DKos has HR's or hide rate abilities. Once a few HR's are given to a post it disappears. Only problem is you have to be a constant user and high volume commenter to get that privilege. Not sure if MM has anything like that.

63 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:21:06pm

re: #54 tradewind

Par-tay.
There used to be one named just that, didn't there?

Hm? I'm not following you.

64 blueraven  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:21:46pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

It gives Obama and the democrats a legislative victory. It goes against the "I hope he fails" strategy from their leader.

65 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:22:31pm

re: #35 Basho

Seriously, can someone explain to me what's so scary about the health bill that people are willing to go to electric chair for?

I think 99% of those commenters will only call for blood behind the shield of their anonymity, hoping they can get one crazed idiot to do the dirty work for them. It's vicious, cowardly and irresponsible.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:22:50pm

re: #64 blueraven

It gives Obama and the democrats a legislative victory. It goes against the "I hope he fails" strategy from their leader.

I can understand OPPOSING it on those grounds. It's the willingness to rant about guns and revolution that throws me.

67 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:22:56pm

re: #52 Charles

It's true that there's plenty of over the top language at Daily Kos.

But I don't recall ever seeing the kind of open calls for violence and murder that we're seeing on almost every right wing blog these days. And the kind of hate mail I've been getting from right wingers is also way WAY more extreme than anything I received from left wingers -- including threats.

The kook-revolutionaries mistakenly think they have all the guns. Otoh, the gummint does have all the tanks, artillery and warplanes worth mentioning.

68 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:23:47pm

re: #59 Charles

No, it's not difficult to find these comments. They're everywhere at Malkin and Hot Air. There's no excuse for letting this go on. They're not deleting the comments or banning these people because they either agree, or because they're deliberately pandering to this craziness.

Or 3: They're afraid of getting singed by the fires they've helped fanned.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:00pm

re: #67 Shiplord Kirel

The kook-revolutionaries mistakenly think they have all the guns. Otoh, the gummint does have all the tanks, artillery and warplanes worth mentioning.

The kook-revolutionaries are quite mistaken. About the guns, specifically, I mean.

I'm a 97-percenter.

70 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:05pm

re: #65 jaunte

And illegal, see post No. 37.

71 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:08pm

re: #52 Charles

I'm not trying to equate them. But there is no other blog that I can think of where non-kookspiracy criticisms of the left could be aired along side criticisms of the right.

I've been reading right-wing hate rants against you for nearly three years now, and I know well which has been more ugly. I'm not trying to defend it in any way. Doesn't excuse the people who hate you on the other side just because they're more polite about it.

72 avanti  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:10pm

re: #59 Charles

No, it's not difficult to find these comments. They're everywhere at Malkin and Hot Air. There's no excuse for letting this go on. They're not deleting the comments or banning these people because they either agree, or because they're deliberately pandering to this craziness.

Even after I've pointed out the comments calling for violence, very publicly here at LGF, they do nothing.

I find it strange that one poster called for the banning of the guy that suggested shooting Senators others reported it to AP, yet it's still there, perhaps he's away from the computer.

73 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:26pm

re: #56 _RememberTonyC

My Senator (Joe Lieberman) is being treated very poorly here in liberal Connecticut. The venom directed at him by the editorial writers as well as the letters from the public is quite nauseating. Lieberman has a lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment in my opinion. But because he dares to buck the Democrat party and its reflexive need to support the Obama/Reid/Pelosi health care plan, he is villified on a daily basis. So I think it is useful to remember that the far right did NOT write the book when it comes to poor treatment of dissenters. I agree 100% with Charles that the level of vitriol from the far right is frightening and should be condemned without reservation. But it is also wrong to assume that ONLY the far right indulges in poor political behavior.

There's a huge difference between calling someone a flipflopper or having vitriol for going against what he was previously for (Lieberman) and calling for him to be killed or for a violent revolution. Politics is vitriolic. If you are hurt by political name calling then it's not a good sport for you. The 'veneom' being directed at him is non violent and political in nature. It's to be expected if you go against what you campaigned on.

74 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:24:38pm

re: #67 Shiplord Kirel

The kook-revolutionaries mistakenly think they have all the guns. Otoh, the gummint does have all the tanks, artillery and warplanes worth mentioning.

Put aside the military, they also think that everyone else would sit down while it happened. They need to think again.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:25:05pm

re: #68 JasonA

Or 3: They're afraid of getting singed by the fires they've helped fanned.

Well, looking at the speed with which this movement throws people under the bus, I don't imagine that Malkin, or any of them, want to be the one to crack down on death threats and be labeled a traitor RINO commie.

76 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:25:16pm

Not a reader, so asking... does MM's site delete any comments? ... or is it one of those 'whatever is up there stays ' places.......

77 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:28:00pm

re: #56 _RememberTonyC

My Senator (Joe Lieberman) is being treated very poorly here in liberal Connecticut. The venom directed at him by the editorial writers as well as the letters from the public is quite nauseating. Lieberman has a lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment in my opinion. But because he dares to buck the Democrat party and its reflexive need to support the Obama/Reid/Pelosi health care plan, he is villified on a daily basis.


No, he's vilified on a daily basis because he's vigorously opposing stuff that in 2006 he campaigned on vigorously supporting. And because he in the last election he vigorously supported, campaigned for, and spoke at the convention of, the other party's candidate. And then made a bunch more promises to the caucus to be able to retain his chairmanship... and has gone back on those promises too.

Just three months ago, in an on-camera interview, he suggested the medicare buy-in; in a caucus meeting he again brought it up as his preferred alternative to the public option. Now suddenly he hates it.

And just last week, he said he liked the bill and was going to vote for it until he heard that Anthony Weiner likes it -- but he can't support anything Anthony Weiner likes.

Joe should just call himself a Republican, because that's clearly what he is.

78 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:28:02pm

re: #76 tradewind

Not a reader, so asking... does MM's site delete any comments? ... or is it one of those 'whatever is up there stays ' places...

From her TOS:

I reserve the right to delete your comments or revoke your registration for any reason whatsoever. Rarely will I do so simply because I disagree with you. I will, however, usually do so if you post something that is, in my opinion, (a) off-topic; (b) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing, threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate these terms of use or any law, including intellectual property laws; or (c) “spam,” i.e., an attempt to advertise, solicit, or otherwise promote goods and services. I may exercise these rights myself and I may delegate them to employees and/or contractors.

Really, she may as well delete all this and not even bother if crap like this can stay up there.

79 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:28:37pm

re: #62 recusancy

So we can blame the webmaster and their community of posters. That's interesting to note. I will simply not spend any time where threats are tolerated. I like calm smart blogs. I can find argumentative fools anywhere.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:28:51pm

re: #74 Girth

Put aside the military, they also think that everyone else would sit down while it happened. They need to think again.

It's part of the fantasy. The rest of the U.S., apart from them, will be divided into traitorous Federal marauders, or grateful sheeple. The marauders will be soundly defeated. The sheeple will cry and bake their liberators pies, and the prettier young women amongst them will have sex with the liberators.

For the overwhelming majority of them, it is simply a fantasy. However, it's a dangerous and stupid one, and sooner or later, some poor dumb evil schmuck is going to start shooting under its influence.

81 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:29:10pm
What needs to be done is the people of Nebraska need to meet Nelson at his home in Nebraska at Christmas time. They need to bring rocks, torches, and signs. They then need to tell him that if he votes to break the next fillabuster for any reason he won’t have a home to come back to and that if he does come back they will use the rope to decorate a tree with him.

Always nice to hear from those down home folksy folks; the true heart of America, the salt of the MF earth, the eternally pious, the ones that keep conservative values first and foremost...
//

Lunatics. Torch and pitchfork, red meat, flat earthing, racist, misogynist, goddamned lunatics. The only thing that would make them happier is if they could personally out and terrorize every female that may have had, or may consider, abortion. Short of that, threatening individuals and politicians wearing their skewed badge of patriotism is first favorite vice. (Don't forget defending the ever-present War on Christmas.)

I fucking hate these people. They aren't harmless nuts, or benignly useless, they're potential domestic terrorists hell bent on constricting individual liberties to fit their fucked up world view. Piss on the lot of them, twice over.

82 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:29:15pm

re: #76 tradewind

Not a reader, so asking... does MM's site delete any comments? ... or is it one of those 'whatever is up there stays ' places...

Meh... think of it as archived empirical evidence of how rotten people's minds are.

83 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #77 sagehen
Dammit, from your lips.
I wish he would jump.... and everyone who wants more moderation in the RNC should be pushing for this as well.

84 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:31:22pm

re: #79 Rightwingconspirator

So we can blame the webmaster and their community of posters. That's interesting to note. I will simply not spend any time where threats are tolerated. I like calm smart blogs. I can find argumentative fools anywhere.

If it's a trend, yes.

85 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:31:26pm

I'm not a shrink, but I think I am a decent judge of human nature. and I believe that the talk of violence from those on the far right is a reaction to their own feelings of impotence. it should not be dismissed and it is troubling beyond belief. people like beck definitely feed this feeling of impotence with their daily drumbeat of examples of the "bad guys" trampling on the rights of the newly oppressed. many of the most extreme haters on the right have not adapted to a more diverse world where the white man is not "in charge" as he was in the "good old days." I really believe that having a Black president is more than many of these people can bear. And when this President does things that they don't like, they get crazy. I don't support a lot of what President Obama is doing. But I also don't think he has done EVERYTHING wrong. And I am rooting for things to get better for the country. And if that means he is reelected in 2012, so be it. I'd rather see that happen than see the country spiral out of control just so I can say "I told you so." I have no interest in that at all.

86 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:31:45pm

re: #81 theheat

Always nice to hear from those down home folksy folks;

.. sarcasm noted, but why even waste time on them? They're not worth two thoughts, and certainly not desirable rent-free tenants for the space in your head.

87 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:32:04pm

re: #77 sagehen

Hey lets not add any bait and switch guys at the GOP either shall we? Unelect those guys. Let them get real jobs or retire.

88 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #11 _RememberTonyC

I am very much looking forward to hearing and seeing a moderate Republican of some stature (think Mitt Romney) throw his hat into the ring while making it quite clear that he is distancing himself from this lunacy of the far right. He will become a hero to moderates of both parties as well as the great independent center. I hope I am not STILL waiting for this to happen in 24 months.

And Romney would have had a great chance of that, had he not pandered to the Right-wing during the 2008 GOP primary debates. (Of course, has McCain nominated him for Veep, he might be a shoo-in for 2012 right now!) As it stands, the only sane Republican I can think of is Jon Huntsman, and he's far away until 2016 at the earliest.

89 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:33:09pm

BTW, for anyone that is tired of the over-the-top freaking out on either side concerning the HCR bill, Ezra Klein has been updating all day as he reads the "manager's amendments" to the Senate bill.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

90 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:33:30pm

re: #85 _RememberTonyC
It's funny... I don't watch Beck's show on Fox, but he was the dominant guest on Leno's show last night and I taped it to see how that would go over.
He was light and hilariously self-deprecating, not at all dark or threatening. Don't worry so much.

91 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:33:49pm

re: #71 Sharmuta

I'm not trying to equate them. But there is no other blog that I can think of where non-kookspiracy criticisms of the left could be aired along side criticisms of the right.

I've been reading right-wing hate rants against you for nearly three years now, and I know well which has been more ugly. I'm not trying to defend it in any way. Doesn't excuse the people who hate you on the other side just because they're more polite about it.

I know you're not defending it. I'm just trying to make a point that I think is important -- the reason why I'm focusing more on the hate speech from right wing blogs is because it's a LOT worse than anything I ever saw from Daily Kos. Open calls for revolution and violence and murder, applause for the murder of Dr. Tiller, etc. etc. And not just a little bit of this, either -- it's everywhere on the right.

92 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:33:52pm

re: #86 tradewind

If they didn't have such an effect on the gutless and likeminded politicians on the right side of the aisle, they could be easily dismissed. Such is not the case, and their views - insane as they are - have become increasingly relevant.

93 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:33:58pm

re: #89 webevintage

BTW, for anyone that is tired of the over-the-top freaking out on either side concerning the HCR bill, Ezra Klein has been updating all day as he reads the "manager's amendments" to the Senate bill.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Ezra is the shiz!

94 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:34:04pm

I stepped in something while at Freeperville:

There are so many aspects of this bill being unconstitutional but now you can add one more to the mix. Are we not suppose to all be equal under the law? Yet now a Nebraskan has total different rights than anyone from another state? Odd is it not?

Ready the muskets, Heat up the tar, grab the pitchforks, and will someone gather some feathers!

Yes this monster still has a road to finality but does anyone with any sense think these politicians have loose touch of reality?
We the people are sending messages, That is not working as it should so the next step is the civil disobedience. What should that look like? Well in my view the people of each state forcing (protest, locked arms backed up by your militia) there governors to start to take actions backed by their state government. Keep this in mind if we make it to the 2010 election. Yes federal officials are critical but you state and local are at the very least just as important.

95 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:34:17pm

Shoot, furniture delivery just rang the doorbell....BBL

96 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:35:28pm

re: #89 webevintage

Just glanced so far but that looks like a "must read". Good catch

97 shai_au  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:35:45pm

What the hell? The comment about stringing the guy up on a tree is still there! Do they have any moderators there at all?

Surely if any comment could be considered unacceptable, it'd be that one. Absolutely ridiculous.

98 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:36:29pm

Charles-

I applaud you for pointing out this vileness on the right- 100% support you. But I have a long memory too, and I'm not going to forget the horrible ways the moonbats smeared you for years. I don't mean it to take away from your point, just add that idiotarianism is still bi-partisan.

99 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:36:45pm

So.. no one at Hot Air or whatever wants any sort of justice for the C-streeters support of Uganda executing homosexuals. It's voting for a health bill that'll make these guys bring out the guillotine? Wonderful priorities.

100 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:38:50pm

BTW, the "manager's amendments" is what those poor clerks have been reading all day on C-SPAN. I think they should all get together and send Mitch a bag of coal for Christmas...what a way to waste a good snow day.

101 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:38:52pm

re: #90 tradewind

It's funny... I don't watch Beck's show on Fox, but he was the dominant guest on Leno's show last night and I taped it to see how that would go over.
He was light and hilariously self-deprecating, not at all dark or threatening. Don't worry so much.

Beck knows his audience. He knows he needs to show his "I'm not crazy" face on Leno because most Leno viewers won't buy what he's selling if they see how crazy it is. He needs to show the people who have misgivings that it's ok to buy his book to give as a gift to your winger uncle who really wants it.

102 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:39:27pm

Charles... Were you ever friends with John Cole when you guys were at PJM? Do you follow him at all, and if so, do you think you're kind of on the same path as him?

103 rurality  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:39:53pm

re: #91 Charles

I think Kos has gotten more hostile to those who don't pass a purity test, it's getting rough for moderates over there. There are creative and profane acts people claim to want to perform on various enemies of the moment, but not rabble rousing, mob mentality actions. Ever noticed that the left sites also spells better and knows how to punctuate?

104 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:41:07pm

re: #102 recusancy

I like John Cole and remember him crediting Charles for realizing how insane the right has become.

105 William of Orange  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:41:23pm

See me going off-topic again!! Someone should stop me! :)

Prague is one of the gems of the former Eastern block. Someone made a massive panorama of the city. 18000 megapixels!!!

ZOINKK!!!

106 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:42:09pm

re: #103 rurality

I think Kos has gotten more hostile to those who don't pass a purity test, it's getting rough for moderates over there. There are creative and profane acts people claim to want to perform on various enemies of the moment, but not rabble rousing, mob mentality actions. Ever noticed that the left sites also spells better and knows how to punctuate?

Interesting point.
I hope what that means is that there are smarter and more educated conservatives who aren't falling into the crazy trap.

107 rurality  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:42:51pm

re: #103 rurality

I do know people get asked to leave, but I don't if they get banned at DK or how much is deleted by moderators. Maybe there is a ton of nasty stuff readers don't get to see.

108 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:43:18pm

re: #103 rurality

Ever noticed that the left sites also spells better and knows how to punctuate?

Probably so, with individual exceptions. I have a theory about that, but it's too offensive to share.

109 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:43:23pm

re: #31 samsgran1948

As a Nebraskan, I will make certain Nelson knows I will never vote for him again (which I did in the past even though I am a Republican), and that I will eagerly help his opponent in his next election. However, death threats are beyond the pale.

I scrolled through this entire thread to read a post from a person who is disappointed in Nelson.
I thought he was holding out on principle. Maybe he was but they also greased his palm.
I am still waiting for the politician who has the guts to stand for his beliefs and not always for the pocketbooks of himself or his constituents.

110 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:43:30pm

re: #102 recusancy

Charles... Were you ever friends with John Cole when you guys were at PJM? Do you follow him at all, and if so, do you think you're kind of on the same path as him?

I've never met John, but we've exchanged a few emails recently.

111 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:44:05pm

re: #103 rurality

I think Kos has gotten more hostile to those who don't pass a purity test, it's getting rough for moderates over there. There are creative and profane acts people claim to want to perform on various enemies of the moment, but not rabble rousing, mob mentality actions. Ever noticed that the left sites also spells better and knows how to punctuate?


Them thar pointy-headed intellekshuals from them ivy towers. Dont need no spelling or math to rite AK47.

112 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:44:36pm

re: #105 William of Orange

See me going off-topic again!! Someone should stop me! :)

Prague is one of the gems of the former Eastern block. Someone made a massive panorama of the city. 18000 megapixels!!!

ZOINKK!!!

Just sent that to my daughter. She was in Prague last summer and loved it!

113 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:44:44pm

re: #35 Basho

Seriously, can someone explain to me what's so scary about the health bill that people are willing to go to electric chair for?


It's the unknown. Do you know what is in it. Really?

114 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #103 rurality
You should take a peek at DU occasionally... you might change your opinion re the mastery of spelling and grammar.
Thay kin relly spit awt a sintince.

115 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:45:28pm

Greets and saluts. It's sickening watching all this go down. These are people who ought to know better but don't care. They'd rather go off a cliff in a rage than realize that it's only politics. The Democrats are wrong in pushing this mess, even more so with their self imposed deadlines to act before the Christmas break so that they don't have to hear from their constituents about why they're pushing this stuff; they'd rather hear why they passed the bill - it is better to have it a done deal than to try and defend this mess.

The numbers still don't add up, even with the latest CBO figures, since they still don't reflect the cost of care after 10 years and after the revenue reserves are eaten up as the plan gets phased in over time. Tax hikes are inevitable and more hikes are on they way courtesy of this plan, as well as through the expiration of the Bush era tax cuts (2001 and 2003 tax cuts). That includes the zombie resurrection of the estate tax in 2011, which generates billions in revenues.

But, for now, most people particularly in the NE US are more concerned about the major snowfall underway in the Middle Atlantic and heading up towards the Northeast. 1+ foot of snow expected in most areas, so if you're out and about, stay safe, drive carefully, and if you're a SUV driver, it doesn't mean that you can violate the laws of physics. You can still slip and slide right off the road.

116 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:46:41pm

re: #35 Basho
Ole' Sparky's still up and running? Can't be in many states......

117 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:46:48pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

I think kos has improved a lot, and in no small part to LGF keeping their feet on the fire. It's sad to see the right wing blogs now need this same service.

However- I don't think the far-left has improved that much, and the smears at kos show that there are moonbats still lurking around. Just because most of teh crazy is on the right these days doesn't mean there is no crazy on the left anymore.


Amen to that. Just look at the protestors in Copenhagen this last week.

118 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:47:07pm

re: #106 reine.de.tout

Interesting point.
I hope what that means is that there are smarter and more educated conservatives who aren't falling into the crazy trap.

Probably the biggest thing that disgusts me about the right wing right now is their attitude about science and education. Until the GOP fixes that, I won't be back.

119 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:48:24pm

Dumb and dumber with the commentators at Malkin's hive playing Revolutionary War toy soldiers.

120 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:48:56pm

re: #117 Blueheron

Or the far left that is still crazy and hoping to kill the bill because it doesn't contain every last item on their wish list.

Politics is the art of the possible.

121 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:49:03pm

re: #118 Girth

Probably the biggest thing that disgusts me about the right wing right now is their attitude about science and education. Until the GOP fixes that, I won't be back.

Absolutely. That's one of the biggest issues for me too. And so much of that atavistic crap goes back to one thing -- the takeover of the GOP by the religious right.

122 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:49:28pm

re: #102 recusancy

Charles... Were you ever friends with John Cole when you guys were at PJM? Do you follow him at all, and if so, do you think you're kind of on the same path as him?

re: #104 Basho

I like John Cole and remember him crediting Charles for realizing how insane the right has become.

John Cole is a good man; not many people of his longevity in the Blogisphere are willing to admit that they had been wrong on a centrality of their philosophy. Back when he made the shift (or in the words of Mr. Furious: "saw the light"), Balloon-Juice was a fascinating daily read. The shame is, even though the place aligns more with my views now, it's not as fun to comment there anymore. Of course, the lack of Charles's custom blogging software is a real disincentive too!

123 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:49:38pm

re: #115 lawhawk
You gotta love the way that Obama ducked out of the final vote at the conference on global warming... he blamed it on the impending massive snowstorm in DC.
(And had AF One race home at double speed to beat it. ' Damn the carbon footprint, beat the blizzard!').

124 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:50:04pm

re: #118 Girth

Probably the biggest thing that disgusts me about the right wing right now is their attitude about science and education. Until the GOP fixes that, I won't be back.

Yeah... all this other craziness kind of trickles down from that.

125 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:50:27pm

re: #56 _RememberTonyC

My Senator (Joe Lieberman) is being treated very poorly here in liberal Connecticut. The venom directed at him by the editorial writers as well as the letters from the public is quite nauseating. Lieberman has a lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment in my opinion. But because he dares to buck the Democrat party and its reflexive need to support the Obama/Reid/Pelosi health care plan, he is villified on a daily basis. So I think it is useful to remember that the far right did NOT write the book when it comes to poor treatment of dissenters. I agree 100% with Charles that the level of vitriol from the far right is frightening and should be condemned without reservation. But it is also wrong to assume that ONLY the far right indulges in poor political behavior.


Joe Liberman is a good man. I think he is the only grown up in the Senate.

126 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:50:27pm

re: #117 Blueheron

I think a lot of it has to do with the right wanting to be as bad as the left was for 8 years. They think it's their turn, and they're fully embracing it. It's disgusting, and I want nothing to do with it, nor do most reasonable people and that's why Independent is the leading political designation in the US now.

127 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:50:28pm

re: #118 Girth

Probably the biggest thing that disgusts me about the right wing right now is their attitude about science and education. Until the GOP fixes that, I won't be back.

You are talking about the politicians, of course, not all right-wingers, right-wing being the group in which I count myself.
(And I can spell and punctuate correctly, and write a complete sentence, and golly gee, I even graduated from college!)

128 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #115 lawhawk

In what sense are the Democrats wrong to push it, if they believe that it is a bill that will help?

129 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:02pm

For example -- Sarah Palin's Twitter feed: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

Copenhgen=arrogance of man2think we can change nature's ways.MUST b good stewards of God's earth,but arrogant&naive2say man overpwers nature

130 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:10pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

I think a lot of it has to do with the right wanting to be as bad as the left was for 8 years. They think it's their turn, and they're fully embracing it. It's disgusting, and I want nothing to do with it, nor do most reasonable people and that's why Independent is the leading political designation in the US now.

agreed.

131 OneMonkeysUncle  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:28pm

This is nothing. Those are neither the most prolific nor the most vitriolic of Maklin's "community." And no, she doesn't ever delete anything - except posts that call out this kind of craziness. These people are seriously Christianist, seriously Teabagger, and, if the quality of their debating on her site is any indication, intellectually retarded.

132 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:30pm

Palin is really coming out of the closet as the religious fanatic she's always been.

133 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:56pm

re: #61 wrenchwench

Maybe Lithium in the water supply is not such a bad idea.

/


I'll drink to that ! :))

134 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:51:59pm

re: #129 Charles

For example -- Sarah Palin's Twitter feed: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

Someone really needs to take away Ma Palin's Twitter and Facebook accounts.

135 rurality  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:52:05pm

re: #106 reine.de.tout

Perhaps the silent majority? I used to think the crazy gibberish was an aberration and that site owners were really do their causes no favor to let all these examples of the near illiteracy be posted. But, over the years, it seems the majority of hostile, hate filled, name calling (lots of 'fag' variations) or stupid rhetoric is written by people who were not paying attention after third grade.
I'm a victim of a weird 60's education experiment called ITA, that really hampered my spelling savvy, so I have some sympathy, but no patience. Laziness.

136 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:52:06pm

re: #117 Blueheron
Markos Moulitsas could hang an American flag from every window and I would never forget what he said about our troops.
That stuff runs deep.

137 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:52:09pm

re: #129 Charles

But, but, but - she gots a dagree in jurnulizm.
//

138 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:52:53pm

re: #134 webevintage
Really?
Why?

139 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:53:20pm

re: #123 tradewind

You gotta love the way that Obama ducked out of the final vote at the conference on global warming... he blamed it on the impending massive snowstorm in DC.
(And had AF One race home at double speed to beat it. ' Damn the carbon footprint, beat the blizzard!').

You're kidding right? Typical cruising speed at altitude is about mach 0.85. There is no such thing as "racing home at double speed."

140 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:53:25pm

re: #129 Charles

For example -- Sarah Palin's Twitter feed: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

Man already has overpowered nature.

Every time the Army Corp of Engineers engineers a river to stay on its current course instead of changing course the way the river wants to go, man has overpowered nature.

Doesn't she know this?

141 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:53:28pm

re: #122 Surabaya Stew

John Cole is a good man; not many people of his longevity in the Blogisphere are willing to admit that they had been wrong on a centrality of their philosophy. Back when he made the shift (or in the words of Mr. Furious: "saw the light"), Balloon-Juice was a fascinating daily read. The shame is, even though the place aligns more with my views now, it's not as fun to comment there anymore. Of course, the lack of Charles's custom blogging software is a real disincentive too!

I didn't discover him until he was fully left of center but I went back and read his archives from '07 through '08 and it was very interesting. You could see him struggle with what he saw to be real and what he believed to be real.

And I agree on the blogging software. I hate commenting at run of the mill blogs like that. That's why I liked Dkos (and all scoop blogs) and here because it auto updates and is smooth and well thought out.

142 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:53:50pm

re: #138 tradewind

Really?
Why?

Because she annoys me....
That should be reason enough, right?

143 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:54:05pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

There's more to it than that given all the demagoguery even before 2008 where disagreeing with policy or actions got one labeled "anti-American" or "traitor".

144 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:55:17pm

re: #136 tradewind

Markos Moulitsas could hang an American flag from every window and I would never forget what he said about our troops.
That stuff runs deep.

What did he say? You know he's a veteran right?

145 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:55:33pm

re: #123 tradewind

You gotta love the way that Obama ducked out of the final vote at the conference on global warming... he blamed it on the impending massive snowstorm in DC.
(And had AF One race home at double speed to beat it. ' Damn the carbon footprint, beat the blizzard!').

'Cause we all know that the USAF can't keep a run-way free of snow in D.C..

146 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:55:36pm

re: #127 reine.de.tout

You are talking about the politicians, of course, not all right-wingers, right-wing being the group in which I count myself.
(And I can spell and punctuate correctly, and write a complete sentence, and golly gee, I even graduated from college!)

I don't want to paint with a broad brush and offend people whom I don't mean to. But anyone who wants to teach creationism intelligent design to a child that isn't their own, I have a serious problem with.

147 rurality  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:56:26pm

re: #136 tradewind

He served in the military, so I think he's a entitled to his views and probably understands and cares more about the men and women in uniform then those of us who have not served.

148 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:56:30pm

re: #105 William of Orange

Had the privilege of living there for 3 years back in the 90s. The TV tower does give a great view on a nice day...pity the thing was built by the communists on top of a Jewish cemetery even older than the world famous one there in Josefov. :(

149 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:56:38pm

re: #77 sagehen

No, he's vilified on a daily basis because he's vigorously opposing stuff that in 2006 he campaigned on vigorously supporting. And because he in the last election he vigorously supported, campaigned for, and spoke at the convention of, the other party's candidate. And then made a bunch more promises to the caucus to be able to retain his chairmanship... and has gone back on those promises too.

Just three months ago, in an on-camera interview, he suggested the medicare buy-in; in a caucus meeting he again brought it up as his preferred alternative to the public option. Now suddenly he hates it.

And just last week, he said he liked the bill and was going to vote for it until he heard that Anthony Weiner likes it -- but he can't support anything Anthony Weiner likes.

Joe should just call himself a Republican, because that's clearly what he is.

Upding for you because the Republicans would like to have him join.

150 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:57:25pm

re: #128 Obdicut

They are pushing a bill that will end up driving up the deficit once the 3-year cushion runs out. The phase in of the health care proposals takes place over several years, but the tax hit starts right away. That might let the 10 year cost claim to be netural, but that cushion will be eaten away over time, and there's no cost savings for the actual cost of care through all this.

The main way the health care bill works is to shift who pays - but not reducing the costs of care. Reducing the cost of care was was one of the main talking points for all this all along, and it doesn't even provide universal care (precisely because the cost for that was too high even for most Democrats). The bill at the same time mandates getting coverage, even for those millions of people who do not want it and then there are the high level plans, often provided by unions that will get whacked by this bill.

Instead of starting with something like allowing individuals to buy insurance from any approved carrier that wants to do business anywhere in the country - so an individual could buy a policy that they want - not a mandated gold plated policy like in CA or NY, they opted to push a mess that was poorly thought out let alone not read by most of the rank and file.

151 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:20pm

re: #146 Girth

And I think the ones teaching it to their own kids are effectively brainwashing them to be anti-science, anti-reality. Teaching scripture is one thing, to advocate it's the truth when it is not, is another. Many religious people have overcome what may seem like a conflict, and can effectively do both - teach religion and science.

152 Digital Display  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:27pm

re: #129 Charles

For example -- Sarah Palin's Twitter feed: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

Oh lawdy...She must think if she and the fundies just pray everything will be just peachy keen...The right has pushed science off the cliff...then jumped off afterwards

153 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:47pm

re: #143 oaktree

There's more to it than that given all the demagoguery even before 2008 where disagreeing with policy or actions got one labeled "anti-American" or "traitor".

In some circles it's acceptable to do that still- to demonize opponents and smear them. I don't find it helpful to the discourse, but what can you do?

154 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:50pm

re: #146 Girth

I don't want to paint with a broad brush and offend people whom I don't mean to. But anyone who wants to teach creationism intelligent design to a child that isn't their own, I have a serious problem with.

As do I.
And in fact . . . I am seriously upset whenever I realize that in this day and age, there actually are people who doubt that the evolutionary process is real and is the explanation for how living things on earth have developed ( and are developing). I've got no patience for silliness.

155 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:53pm

re: #129 Charles

For example -- Sarah Palin's Twitter feed: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

My God. She's an LOLCat.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:59:09pm

re: #132 Charles

Palin is really coming out of the closet as the religious fanatic she's always been.

But Charles, they promised she was totally mainstream!

//

157 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:59:26pm

re: #151 theheat

And I think the ones teaching it to their own kids are effectively brainwashing them to be anti-science, anti-reality. Teaching scripture is one thing, to advocate it's the truth when it is not, is another. Many religious people have overcome what may seem like a conflict, and can effectively do both - teach religion and science.

There is no conflict. Period.

158 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:07pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

For some, it is.

159 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:13pm

re: #150 lawhawk

That wasn't my question. I didn't ask you what you thought was wrong with the bill.

I asked why you're saying the Democrats are wrong to push the bill if they honestly believe it is the right thing to do. You're castigating them for, basically, advocating legislation they're in favor of. Of course they are. That isn't wrong of them to do.

In addition, I'm not sure why you'd sign on to breaking down the state barriers for insurance; why on earth wouldn't you expect what happened with credit cards to happen-- health insurance flocking to the states with the fewer consumer protection laws?

Given that the aim of this health insurance bill was not to reduce medical costs, I'm also unsure why you're attacking it for not doing so.

160 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:22pm

re: #52 Charles

It's true that there's plenty of over the top language at Daily Kos.

But I don't recall ever seeing the kind of open calls for violence and murder that we're seeing on almost every right wing blog these days. And the kind of hate mail I've been getting from right wingers is also way WAY more extreme than anything I received from left wingers -- including threats.

The news forums over at CNN were every bit as bad. Perhaps worse, simply because of the density of such commentary. I think I've mentioned my own very unpleasant experiences with leftist Internet stalkers, as well.

I tend to agree that there doesn't seem to be anything particularly unique to the right about such commentary. It's a big Internet.

161 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:22pm

Wait till Obama tackles tax reform if you want to see crazy.

Between the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, alternative minimum tax (AMT) reform, and the huge debt accumulated this decade the top rate will have to go to 45-50% just to avoid fiscal disaster.

Obama's hands are tied on taxes. He bought into a fiscal poker game with the short stack seat and a pair of deuces.

162 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:34pm

re: #155 Conservative Moonbat

My God. She's an LOLCat.

I can haz teh crazy?

163 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:36pm

OT This is a group thank you to all you marvelous Lizards who sent me e-mails last night and the rest of the weekend. As I get to feeling better, I'll respond to each!

*mwah*

164 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:43pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

Oh lawdy...She must think if she and the fundies just pray everything will be just peachy keen...The right has pushed science off the cliff...then jumped off afterwards

This is the real root of Palin's climate change denial -- she's completely bought into the far religious right concept that mankind can't do anything to affect the earth's climate, and that it would be wrong to even try because it would be against God's will.

165 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:47pm

re: #144 recusancy

What did he say? You know he's a veteran right?

It wasn't actually about our troops; it was about the contractors who were killed and dismembered in Fallujah. (IIRC, his view was "fuck 'em, who cares, they're mercenaries.")

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:00:49pm

re: #140 reine.de.tout

Man already has overpowered nature.

Every time the Army Corp of Engineers engineers a river to stay on its current course instead of changing course the way the river wants to go, man has overpowered nature.

Doesn't she know this?

That's different. God allows us to overpower nature if it's to our advantage, but would never allow us to do anything that would get us into trouble.

//There's a story featuring a piece of fruit that might be seen to tell a different moral, but I suppose Mrs. Palin and I do not interpret it the same way.

167 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:01:02pm

re: #141 recusancy

I didn't discover him until he was fully left of center but I went back and read his archives from '07 through '08 and it was very interesting. You could see him struggle with what he saw to be real and what he believed to be real.

And I agree on the blogging software. I hate commenting at run of the mill blogs like that. That's why I liked Dkos (and all scoop blogs) and here because it auto updates and is smooth and well thought out.

Yeah, wasn't that fun? It's still good to read, but Balloon Juice was at it's best during that period. However, the commenting experience and feeling of belonging to a community is so lacking when compared to what CJ has done here, I don't know if I'll ever go back to commenting there. That is, unless the LGF software is available for licensing.... :-D

168 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:01:06pm

It's precious how she had to stick the USA on the end of her name for her twitter feed.

SEE HOW MUCH I LOVE AMERICA?!?!?! CAN YOU SEE IT?!?!?!?

169 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:01:56pm

re: #153 Sharmuta

I tend to ignore statements made by those who resort to those tactics, or minimally take their claims and statements under much greater scrutiny. Demonizing an opponent is not addressing the issue, or even attempting a useful exchange of ideas and viewpoints. It's essentially poisoning the well in advance and attempting to "win" via an emotional appeal.

170 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:02:22pm

re: #169 oaktree

I tend to ignore statements made by those who resort to those tactics, or minimally take their claims and statements under much greater scrutiny. Demonizing an opponent is not addressing the issue, or even attempting a useful exchange of ideas and viewpoints. It's essentially poisoning the well in advance and attempting to "win" via an emotional appeal.

Oh, I agree completely.

171 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:02:27pm

OT -
good news from here!
The Sheriff's Office has a system that phones every household in the parish when there is a child missing.

A 12-year-old girl went missing yesterday, never arrived home after getting off her school bus.

Just got another call on this system - she's been located today, thanks to a tip from a caller! It's nice when things work out!

172 lostlakehiker  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:02:38pm

I have real misgivings about this health bill. What of the future? Crippling shortages of skilled professionals figure to be the natural consequence of truncating their pay.

If prescription prices are capped at a small multiple of the cost of production, where are the funds to come from with which to develop the next generation of antibiotics? Evolution takes no vacations; the bacteria of tomorrow will have made some progress at surviving the antibiotics of today. It's an unremitting arms race. We cannot rest on our laurels.

If the patient never has to pay any actual cash out of pocket, what is to inhibit hypochondriacs from monopolizing the time of doctors who must see them again, and again, and again?

If the patient never has to cover some fraction of the cost of expensive procedures, won't the expensive procedures be rationed by some sort of triage, instead? It won't likely be rationed by lottery. The stimulus funds went largely to Democratic districts. What reason is there to expect that tomorrow's rationing of scarce goods won't be a matter of having a friendly (democrat) congress-critter who can get you in with a doctor? At best, Republican districts would find their medical infrastructures starved of funds, unable to provide proper care or any advanced care. More likely, all regions would find their institutions starved of funds. The proposed scale of spending just doesn't match up with the proposed means of funding it.

173 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:03:16pm

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Safe and sound, I hope?

174 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:03:37pm

re: #158 theheat

For some, it is.

Only if they have the reading comprehension level of an 8-year-old.

The Book of Genesis has two creation stories -- contradictory stories, that use different methods and do things in different order. Clearly the author did not intend either story to be taken as a literal recounting.

Metaphor and allegory are not modern inventions.

175 theheat  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:03:46pm

re: #172 lostlakehiker

If the patient never has to pay any actual cash out of pocket, what is to inhibit hypochondriacs from monopolizing the time of doctors who must see them again, and again, and again?

That's where the death panels come in mighty handy.
//

176 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:03:53pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Safe and sound, I hope?

Yes!

177 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:03:55pm

re: #59 Charles

No, it's not difficult to find these comments. They're everywhere at Malkin and Hot Air. There's no excuse for letting this go on. They're not deleting the comments or banning these people because they either agree, or because they're deliberately pandering to this craziness.

Even after I've pointed out the comments calling for violence, very publicly here at LGF, they do nothing.

I haven't spent much time at HA, but Malkin has no excuse whatsoever for not moderating her comments. A quick glance suggests that her articles only attract a fraction of the commentary those here do - a hundred or two on average, it seems. And, like here, most of the commentary comes from a much smaller number of serial posters - a couple dozen, perhaps. So once found, it shouldn't be hard to start corralling the problem.

But, no.

178 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:04:29pm

re: #172 lostlakehiker

Do you honestly, honestly think that, about Democrats choking off necessary medical funds to Republican districts?

Really, really?

179 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:04:32pm

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Thats great. Community works.

180 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:04:49pm

re: #139 Gus 802
Ohforpetessake.

181 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:04:59pm

re: #172 lostlakehiker


If the patient never has to pay any actual cash out of pocket, what is to inhibit hypochondriacs from monopolizing the time of doctors who must see them again, and again, and again?

If the patient never has to cover some fraction of the cost of expensive procedures, won't the expensive procedures be rationed by some sort of triage, instead?

That's a lot of ifs....
and I'm not sure why you would think that the patient will never cover some fraction of the cost of expensive procedures?

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:05:24pm

re: #168 Girth

It's precious how she had to stick the USA on the end of her name for her twitter feed.

SEE HOW MUCH I LOVE AMERICA?!?!?! CAN YOU SEE IT?!?!?!?

She told People magazine that she was just a regular American mom, "like any other mom out there who loves her children more than anything else in the world—with an extra dose of patriotism and concern for America."

It's her core schtick. If you don't agree with her, it's just because you don't looooove America as much as she does.

183 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:03pm

re: #174 sagehen


Metaphor and allegory are not modern inventions.

They're ancient inventions that have been largely lost in modern times.

184 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:07pm

re: #88 Surabaya Stew

And Romney would have had a great chance of that, had he not pandered to the Right-wing during the 2008 GOP primary debates. (Of course, has McCain nominated him for Veep, he might be a shoo-in for 2012 right now!) As it stands, the only sane Republican I can think of is Jon Huntsman, and he's far away until 2016 at the earliest.

Who the *bleep* is Huntsman?

185 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:13pm

re: #145 MandyManners
Hope they do a better job of it than FedX...
( we used to borrow their de-icer equipment at Dulles).
Frustration is having the wings ice back over before the tail is completely de-iced.

186 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:20pm

re: #161 Linden Arden

Wait till Obama tackles tax reform if you want to see crazy.

Between the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, alternative minimum tax (AMT) reform, and the huge debt accumulated this decade the top rate will have to go to 45-50% just to avoid fiscal disaster.

Obama's hands are tied on taxes. He bought into a fiscal poker game with the short stack seat and a pair of deuces.

Here's a novel thought: reduce spending.

I know that's pretty far out of the box. But it's worth considering all the options.

187 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:35pm

re: #184 Blueheron

Who the *bleep* is Huntsman?

It's called google.

188 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:06:43pm

re: #184 Blueheron

Who the *bleep* is Huntsman?

Sounds like Palin's husband?

189 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:07:29pm

re: #178 Obdicut
Harry Reid's ' We'll shut down your effing AFB ' threat to Nelson didn't seem plausible at first, either.

190 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:07:42pm

re: #184 Blueheron

Who the *bleep* is Huntsman?

The guy Obama sent to China?

(as in Ambassador. From Utah...)

191 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:09pm

Mr. Huntsman Goes to Beijing
[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

192 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:20pm

re: #161 Linden Arden

Wait till Obama tackles tax reform if you want to see crazy.

Between the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, alternative minimum tax (AMT) reform, and the huge debt accumulated this decade the top rate will have to go to 45-50% just to avoid fiscal disaster.

Obama's hands are tied on taxes. He bought into a fiscal poker game with the short stack seat and a pair of deuces.

Don't worry. He'll blame Pres. Bush.

193 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:29pm

re: #110 Charles

I've never met John, but we've exchanged a few emails recently.

I'm glad to see that Charles. John was my first experience with a person changing so radically. It's been a pleasure reading him because he's fearless in giving his opinion of the right or left. And much like here, that makes the conversation more interesting.

Plus he makes me laugh and who could ask for more then that?

194 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:39pm

re: #184 Blueheron

Who the *bleep* is Huntsman?

This guy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

195 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:40pm

re: #174 sagehen

Only if they have the reading comprehension level of an 8-year-old.

The Book of Genesis has two creation stories -- contradictory stories, that use different methods and do things in different order. Clearly the author editors did not intend either story to be taken as a literal recounting.

Metaphor and allegory are not modern inventions.

Minor correction. It's much more likely that there are two creation myths in there because there was, at some point, a blending of two separate, somewhat related stories.

196 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:08:59pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

It's called google.

teh gugel iz harrd

197 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:09:10pm

re: #192 MandyManners

Don't worry. He'll blame Pres. Bush.

Na he's too classy to attack him, even if it is true.

198 William of Orange  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:09:20pm

His vote was bought with $780 million.

Quite harsh to senators who DID fall in line with the Obama administration. Michigan, one of the poorer states got nothing for that "YES" vote.

It pays off to be a dissident. It's also a dangerous presedent to be suseptable to blackmail....

199 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:09:26pm

re: #168 Girth
Actually, it's because people had swiped her name already and used it on twitter. Such kidders.

200 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:09:32pm
Kirk Jowers of the University of Utah’s Hinckley Institute of Politics says, "Huntsman has positioned himself in a great place right now because he is the only presidential candidate really running in the middle right now."


[Link: www.abc4.com...]

201 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:09:37pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

She told People magazine that she was just a regular American mom, "like any other mom out there who loves her children more than anything else in the world—with an extra dose of patriotism and concern for America."

It's her core schtick. If you don't agree with her, it's just because you don't looove America as much as she does.

It's also an extremely lazy conservative position to take so that you can point to "real America" now, and resist any sort of change as being "anti-American" and wanting to destroy "real America" as it exists now. Since she has no ideas of her own, it's all she's got.

202 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:10:03pm

re: #159 Obdicut

I asked why you're saying the Democrats are wrong to push the bill if they honestly believe it is the right thing to do.

Ask Howard Dean. He's opposed to the current iteration of the bill, and last time I checked he was head of the DNC. The fact that there was plenty of arm twisting to get even cloture tells you that the Democrats aren't behind this bill.

Not all the Democrats think that this bill is good and should be supported. Health care reform is needed, but this bill is the wrong way to go about it.

Being for health care reform doesn't mean you can or should be supporting this monstrosity.

In addition, I'm not sure why you'd sign on to breaking down the state barriers for insurance; why on earth wouldn't you expect what happened with credit cards to happen-- health insurance flocking to the states with the fewer consumer protection laws?

The Feds have just once again tightened control on credit cards, but at its base, it is between the consumer and company to dictate the terms. The consumer has a right to choose not to use a credit card company (and Delaware happens to be the state from which Joe Biden represented in the US Senate for all those years before becoming VP).

What I envision for the insurance companies is that they'd be able to offer bare bones policies that are accepted in other states, while requiring them to provide their existing coverages. They wouldn't be able to reduce their coverage levels, but individuals could buy the level of coverage they need. It would fill the need left by high cost insurance providing services most people don't need.

Alternatively, the nation could decide that universal catastrophic care is in the best interest, and provide everyone with a buyin for catastrophic care (major accidents, injuries, certain illnesses). That's separate and distinct from insurance for other services - primary care, etc.

None of this is even a consideration under the current proposals.

203 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:10:11pm

re: #106 reine.de.tout

Interesting point.
I hope what that means is that there are smarter and more educated conservatives who aren't falling into the crazy trap.


Yes. We are here. All three of us :))

204 Basho  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:10:22pm

re: #195 SixDegrees

Minor correction. It's much more likely that there are two creation myths in there because there was, at some point, a blending of two separate, somewhat related stories.

Or multiverses, as those Darwinists call them.

205 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:10:54pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

It's called google.


Wiesenheimer......Google that....:)

206 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:12:27pm

re: #189 tradewind

I thought I saw that busted, right here on LGF.

Yeah:
The Nebraska Democrat on Tuesday dismissed reports by conservative pundits that the White House threatened to close Offutt Air Force Base if Nelson fails to support the legislation.


On the other hand, you could believe Michelle Malkin's anonymous source, if you'd like.

207 webevintage  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:12:45pm

Tim Kaine is head of the DNC not Dean.

208 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:12:49pm

I have found a way to vote my conscience. Instead of not voting, I have decided to write in "None of the Above" in all contests on my ballot as my form of protest.

209 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:13:04pm

re: #19 Charles

And yet, she never does. Why do you think that is?

She's a raving loonie?

210 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:13:22pm

Wiesenheimer Genealogy and Family Tree
[Link: www.genealogytoday.com...]

211 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:13:57pm

re: #125 Blueheron

Joe Liberman is a good man. I think he is the only grown up in the Senate.

When Lieberman was elected as a so-called independent he promised to vote with the Democratic caucus in return for a committee chair. He has obviously gone back on his word. I don't call that being a "good man."

212 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:13:59pm

re: #203 Blueheron

Yes. We are here. All three of us :))

I'm afraid you might be right.

213 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:14:11pm

re: #198 William of Orange

His vote was bought with $780 million.

Quite harsh to senators who DID fall in line with the Obama administration. Michigan, one of the poorer states got nothing for that "YES" vote.

It pays off to be a dissident. It's also a dangerous presedent to be suseptable to blackmail...

Yes, indeedy. I made a similar comment about Lieberman - he saw an opportunity, made the best political hay from it he could, and walked away with significant changes to the health care bill that the entire corpus of the GOP couldn't have pulled off if they wanted to.

214 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:14:37pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

I have found a way to vote my conscience. Instead of not voting, I have decided to write in "None of the Above" in all contests on my ballot as my form of protest.

I may start writing my name in for everything. Who knows, maybe I'll win something.

215 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #172 lostlakehiker

What reason is there to expect that tomorrow's rationing of scarce goods won't be a matter of having a friendly (democrat) congress-critter who can get you in with a doctor? At best, Republican districts would find their medical infrastructures starved of funds, unable to provide proper care or any advanced care. More likely, all regions would find their institutions starved of funds. The proposed scale of spending just doesn't match up with the proposed means of funding it.


Or maybe governors and state legislatures should get off their asses and remember their jobs are supposed to be a little more proactive than weeping and wailing and waiting on Washington.

Oregon has a state-sponsored plan that's working just fine for them; doctors and patients and employers and taxpayers are all happy with it. Minnesota has a plan designed by the Mayo Clinic that's reducing their per capita costs (and improving outcomes) better than all the other states. San Francisco has a clinic plan that's drastically reduced emergency room visits by the uninsured and indigent, and reduced overcrowding and wait times for the people whose problems really are emergencies.

This bill, along with all its other benefits, will encourage other states and counties and cities to get the lead out.

216 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:15:37pm

re: #212 reine.de.tout
re: #203 Blueheron

awww come on now you two. This place can muster double digits easily. :)

217 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:15:46pm

re: #136 tradewind

Markos Moulitsas could hang an American flag from every window and I would never forget what he said about our troops.
That stuff runs deep.

I assume you're referring to the "screw them" comment? This may not be the best place to introduce this kind of nuance, but Blackwater operatives ≠ "our troops." It seems deceptive to conflate the two in order to sell his admittedly crass, mean and disturbing comment as somehow being against members of the actual US military. The fact that they were fellow citizens and human beings is quite enough to frame Kos statement in its proper and unflattering context.

218 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:16:13pm

re: #197 Basho

Na he's too classy to attack him, even if it is true.

Surely you're joking. That's about all he's done since he got into office.

219 brookly red  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:16:38pm

re: #214 Girth

I may start writing my name in for everything. Who knows, maybe I'll win something.

I am gonna sell mine on E-Bay....

220 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:16:43pm

re: #214 Girth

Actually- I do think "none of the above" should be a standard option on ballots. If none of the people satisfy me, why shouldn't I vote that way?

221 Cheechako  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:16:52pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

I have found a way to vote my conscience. Instead of not voting, I have decided to write in "None of the Above" in all contests on my ballot as my form of protest.


If 'None of the Above" were ever added to a ballot it would win a lot of elections.

222 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:17:26pm

re: #221 Cheechako

Might start pressuring parties to field better candidates.

223 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:17:33pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

I have found a way to vote my conscience. Instead of not voting, I have decided to write in "None of the Above" in all contests on my ballot as my form of protest.

Too bad you can't just vote "PRESENT".

224 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:17:34pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

She told People magazine that she was just a regular American mom, "like any other mom out there who loves her children more than anything else in the world—with an extra dose of patriotism and concern for America."

It's her core schtick. If you don't agree with her, it's just because you don't looove America as much as she does.

Yeah -- her and Todd love America so much he was a member of, and she sent videotaped greetings to, a secessionist party.

225 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:17:50pm

re: #219 brookly red

I am gonna sell mine on E-Bay...

You had better not do that, IMHO:

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

226 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:18:32pm

re: #220 Sharmuta

Actually- I do think "none of the above" should be a standard option on ballots. If none of the people satisfy me, why shouldn't I vote that way?

As my high school civics teacher was fond of point out, it may not always be possible to find a candidate you can support sufficiently to vote for. But it is nearly always possible to find a candidate that you can vote against.

227 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:18:42pm

re: #223 MandyManners

That election is Dec 25th.

228 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:19:27pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

I think a lot of it has to do with the right wanting to be as bad as the left was for 8 years. They think it's their turn, and they're fully embracing it. It's disgusting, and I want nothing to do with it, nor do most reasonable people and that's why Independent is the leading political designation in the US now.


I agree totally with you. The right (wing nuts) do think they have some flesh to strip off of liberal hides for the way Bush was treated from the jump.

229 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:19:28pm

re: #221 Cheechako

If 'None of the Above" were ever added to a ballot it would win a lot of elections.

Mickey Mouse always does well here:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But Donald Duck does better in Scandinavia for some odd reason....

230 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:19:32pm

re: #202 lawhawk

Again, you keep talking about the bill being bad, and that being a reason not to support it. You're avoiding the rather obvious fact that people supporting it are openly declaring that it is better, at least, than doing nothing.

I'm not sure why.

The Feds have just once again tightened control on credit cards, but at its base, it is between the consumer and company to dictate the terms. The consumer has a right to choose not to use a credit card company (and Delaware happens to be the state from which Joe Biden represented in the US Senate for all those years before becoming VP).

Nice random swing at Biden there. So, in other words, you do expect insurance companies to all flock to the state with the fewest consumer protections. Great. I think that would be an absolutely terrible thing. The amount of consumer protection against health insurance companies is tiny at the moment-- such as the individual policy holder not being able to sue for death or harm due to improperly denied coverage, instead the lawsuit needing to be filed by the employer-- and removing it, as you so blithely endorse, is a terrible idea.

What I envision for the insurance companies is that they'd be able to offer bare bones policies that are accepted in other states, while requiring them to provide their existing coverages. They wouldn't be able to reduce their coverage levels, but individuals could buy the level of coverage they need. It would fill the need left by high cost insurance providing services most people don't need.

Why on earth would you prefer deregulation followed by massive regulation? What's that kind of shuffle supposed to get us? And what do you mean by 'bare bones'?

231 Cheechako  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:19:46pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Might start pressuring parties to field better candidates.


Absolutely!

232 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:19:58pm

re: #226 SixDegrees

I would tell that teacher thanks for describing how we got where we are. Rubbish.

233 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:21:02pm

re: #127 reine.de.tout

You are talking about the politicians, of course, not all right-wingers, right-wing being the group in which I count myself.
(And I can spell and punctuate correctly, and write a complete sentence, and golly gee, I even graduated from college!)


Hiya padner. Glad to see some kinfolks here. :))

234 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:22:00pm

re: #79 Rightwingconspirator

I can find argumentative fools anywhere.

No you can't.

235 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:22:13pm

re: #220 Sharmuta

Actually- I do think "none of the above" should be a standard option on ballots. If none of the people satisfy me, why shouldn't I vote that way?

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.


236 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:22:35pm

re: #234 b_sharp

That's not an argument!

237 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:22:49pm

re: #121 Charles

I suspect (wishfully think?) we may not be too far away from a realignment that may be the end of the GOP as we know it. (At least I hope so.) If the religious right completely takes over the GOP then I can see a centrist fiscally conservative party emerging made up of the saner GOP people, fiscally conservative Dems who hate the more socialist policies that party promotes and Independents who want to get involved. The Dem party will then be more consistent in its left leaning views. The new centrist party then could be effective by siding with the GOP or Dems depending on the issue - a bit of a European model. If that doesn't happen then we're in big trouble because I see no end to the polarization of the two parties and the widening gaps in views. It may fracture us for a long time.

238 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:23:21pm

re: #234 b_sharp

No you can't.

Yes, he can.

239 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:23:26pm

re: #232 Rightwingconspirator

I would tell that teacher thanks for describing how we got where we are. Rubbish.

Given a choice between two candidates I don't particularly care for, it's often easy to figure out which one I care for least instead of trying to decide which one I like the most.

Simply not voting may be an option, but it accomplishes nothing, and if enough people sit out an election it vastly empowers the shrillest minorities.

240 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24:07pm

But if I haven't paid the five pounds, why are you arguing? Hmm?

241 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24:47pm

Shit. I blew it.

242 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24:47pm

re: #240 oaktree

But if I haven't paid the five pounds, why are you arguing? Hmm?

He could be arguing in his spare time.

243 drogheda  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24:48pm

re: #235 MandyManners

You almost always manage to post links to music I like.

244 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #234 b_sharp

No you can't.

Of course he can!

245 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:25:56pm
246 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:26:04pm

I think the right wing went into the wrong room and mistook Abuse for an Argument... ;)

247 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:26:14pm

re: #143 oaktree

There's more to it than that given all the demagoguery even before 2008 where disagreeing with policy or actions got one labeled "anti-American" or "traitor".


Hey back in the sixties if you believed in the Vietnam war the left would literally spit on you.

248 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:26:15pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Might start pressuring parties to field better candidates.

To suffer politics to become a cesspool, and then avoid it because it is a cesspool, is a double crime.
-- forget who

249 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:26:57pm

re: #233 Blueheron

Hiya padner. Glad to see some kinfolks here. :))

Yep!
I am too - always glad to see a padnuh, 'specially a newbie!

250 jaunte  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:27:11pm

re: #242 Girth

Argument is next door, and it's being-killed-for-political-disagreement lessons down the hall at Malkin's place.

251 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:28:03pm

Since the thread has fortuitously turned Python-ward, did you know that John Cleese played Petrucchio in the BBC's 1980s production of The Taming Of The Shrew? Here's a clip:

"WHERE. ARE. MY. SLIPPAAAAAAHHHSSS!!!"

252 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #237 acacia

I suspect (wishfully think?) we may not be too far away from a realignment that may be the end of the GOP as we know it. (At least I hope so.) If the religious right completely takes over the GOP then I can see a centrist fiscally conservative party emerging made up of the saner GOP people, fiscally conservative Dems who hate the more socialist policies that party promotes and Independents who want to get involved. The Dem party will then be more consistent in its left leaning views. The new centrist party then could be effective by siding with the GOP or Dems depending on the issue - a bit of a European model. If that doesn't happen then we're in big trouble because I see no end to the polarization of the two parties and the widening gaps in views. It may fracture us for a long time.

I suspect this is why the Tea Partiers are keen to jump on the third party concept, except they are not much better than the religious right in that they are still far from centrist. It's as though they not only want to hurt the GOP, but damage the concept of a third party as well so any future ideas about fiscally conservative Independents is tainted by their past (currently present) association with tea party weirdos.

253 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:28:18pm

re: #237 acacia

I suspect (wishfully think?) we may not be too far away from a realignment that may be the end of the GOP as we know it. (At least I hope so.) If the religious right completely takes over the GOP then I can see a centrist fiscally conservative party emerging made up of the saner GOP people, fiscally conservative Dems who hate the more socialist policies that party promotes and Independents who want to get involved. The Dem party will then be more consistent in its left leaning views. The new centrist party then could be effective by siding with the GOP or Dems depending on the issue - a bit of a European model. If that doesn't happen then we're in big trouble because I see no end to the polarization of the two parties and the widening gaps in views. It may fracture us for a long time.

More likely, the Dems will recognize an untapped, neglected interest group and tap it form themselves. In fact, this is already happening; note the Blue Dogs, the only fiscally conservative members of Congress who currently wield any real power. In fact, the direction of the Democratic Party since Dean's tutelage began can be seen as a race to the middle, an attempt to broaden the party's support by appealing (some, I suppose, would say pandering) to Centrist interests. This is aided by the GOP's current penchant for purging anyone and everyone who disagrees with the party's shrillest members - which is not exactly a recipe for success.

254 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:29:22pm
255 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:30:29pm

re: #247 Blueheron

It's not a recent development. Do any reading of American political history and you see lots of editorial commentary that is mainly invective and insults being heaped upon the opposing party, their candidates, and their proposals. (And I suspect the same would apply in Europe, and possibly a more subtle in Asia/Japan.)

I recall a satirical Mark Twain essay talking about how newspaper editors acted at that time. Involved gunfire as well.

256 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:30:45pm

re: #159 Obdicut

That wasn't my question. I didn't ask you what you thought was wrong with the bill.

I asked why you're saying the Democrats are wrong to push the bill if they honestly believe it is the right thing to do. You're castigating them for, basically, advocating legislation they're in favor of. Of course they are. That isn't wrong of them to do.

In addition, I'm not sure why you'd sign on to breaking down the state barriers for insurance; why on earth wouldn't you expect what happened with credit cards to happen-- health insurance flocking to the states with the fewer consumer protection laws?

Given that the aim of this health insurance bill was not to reduce medical costs, I'm also unsure why you're attacking it for not doing so.

Obama promised it would?

257 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:30:51pm

re: #234 b_sharp

Did!

258 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:31:12pm

re: #250 jaunte

Sure that's not Getting-hit-on-the-head lessons?

259 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:31:19pm

Christian nutball getting a message across to children who pass his home:

260 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:31:50pm

re: #164 Charles

Someone ought to let her know that the earth didn't look much like it does today even 100 or 200 years ago let alone pre-Columbian days etc. We DO change the environment whether we plan to or not. My fear is that we don't have a very good track record when we actively attempt to change the environment like when we introduce non-native species to an area to fix one problem only to find that not only is the problem not fixed but 10 more are created. The only successful policy that I have seen is our efforts to combat pollution. We have succeeded there and should continue to do so. No matter where you come down on global warming, there can be no denying that it is better to use non-polluting, more efficient, energy sources.

261 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:32:16pm

re: #211 Kewalo

When Lieberman was elected as a so-called independent he promised to vote with the Democratic caucus in return for a committee chair. He has obviously gone back on his word. I don't call that being a "good man."

i guess for you, "good man" really means "loyal to the PARTY." My definition differs from yours.

262 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:32:21pm

OT

Fauxtrage!

Over at Fox News Nation they're reporting that Obama bowed to someone at Copenhagen! 6 pages of unhinged comments followed.

Did Obama Find Someone to Bow to in Copenhagen?

263 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:32:51pm

re: #252 Sharmuta

I suspect this is why the Tea Partiers are keen to jump on the third party concept, except they are not much better than the religious right in that they are still far from centrist. It's as though they not only want to hurt the GOP, but damage the concept of a third party as well so any future ideas about fiscally conservative Independents is tainted by their past (currently present) association with tea party weirdos.

They think that they can forge a party to the right of the current GOP and win elections, whether it's the GOP or a new party. Silent majority and all that.

264 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:32:56pm

re: #163 MandyManners

OT This is a group thank you to all you marvelous Lizards who sent me e-mails last night and the rest of the weekend. As I get to feeling better, I'll respond to each!

*mwah*


I would have sent you one Mandy but I don't know how so you don't have to write me back. Great huh? :)

265 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #262 Gus 802

Yeah, I saw that making the rounds this am.

266 Cheechako  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:08pm

OT

You folks back East worrying about a few inches of snow... how about 6 1/2 feet in 3 days?

Near-record 3-day snow hits Valdez

267 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:13pm

re: #256 Blueheron

It's a first step towards controlling costs, definitely, but in its current state itd definitely couldn't be said to lower them. Can you cite me Obama promising that this legislation would reduce health care costs?

268 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:38pm

re: #262 Gus 802

Amazing... bowgate lives!

269 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:50pm

re: #263 Girth

They think that they can forge a party to the right of the current GOP and win elections, whether it's the GOP or a new party. Silent majority and all that.

I don't know why I should care any more.

270 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:33:57pm

re: #265 Thanos

Yeah, I saw that making the rounds this am.

Did it? I got up at 1 PM. I imagine it involved the usual suspects.

271 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:34:15pm

Finally! A [non-lethal] weapon against the tea partiers!

272 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:34:23pm

re: #243 drogheda

You almost always manage to post links to music I like.

Glad to be of service!

273 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:34:31pm

If someone starts making disparaging comments about the First Lady's butt, will that be the accompanying Sterngate?

//

274 allegro  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:34:44pm

re: #259 Thanos

Ohhh, that is so freaking wrong. The answer to everything is a shotgun? There's a message of "goodwill to all".

275 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:35:21pm

re: #255 oaktree

It's not a recent development. Do any reading of American political history and you see lots of editorial commentary that is mainly invective and insults being heaped upon the opposing party, their candidates, and their proposals. (And I suspect the same would apply in Europe, and possibly a more subtle in Asia/Japan.)

I recall a satirical Mark Twain essay talking about how newspaper editors acted at that time. Involved gunfire as well.

The era of the Partisan Press was a hoot!

276 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:35:38pm

re: #259 Thanos

Christian nutball getting a message across to children who pass his home:

It's the War on Christmas!

And Santa has suffered a major defeat!

277 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:36:15pm

re: #259 Thanos

I must have missed those Bible stories of Jesus' drive by killing of Pontius Pilate. Maybe turning the other cheek was a metaphor for loading the other barrel.

278 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:36:33pm

re: #73 recusancy

There's a huge difference between calling someone a flipflopper or having vitriol for going against what he was previously for (Lieberman) and calling for him to be killed or for a violent revolution. Politics is vitriolic. If you are hurt by political name calling then it's not a good sport for you. The 'veneom' being directed at him is non violent and political in nature. It's to be expected if you go against what you campaigned on.


he changed his mind when he saw the real costs .... I call that pragmatic and thoughtful.

279 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:36:38pm

re: #260 acacia

Your reply is very much in line with a presentation at the AGU fall meeting, about how to deal with AGW science communication. There were three speakers, including Matthew Nisbet. Here is Nisbet's presenation:

[Link: eventcg.com...]

The first 11 minutes are pretty general, the interesting stuff starts around 11:00. Also, in the Q&A session, one women draws the parallels between the anti-AGW, anti-vaxx, and anti-evolution culture wars.

280 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:36:59pm

re: #275 MandyManners

It was the main media for the locale. Note how the local boss was so upset with the local editor in _The Man Who Shot Liberty Vallance_.

281 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:37:43pm

re: #5 freetoken

Though I admit, DKos is getting ridiculous that I'm completely turned off of that site with their over the top criticism of the President selling out I rarely do I see them call for the lynching or killing of someone and if they do, that get's shot down pretty fast.

282 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:37:51pm

re: #228 Blueheron

I agree totally with you. The right (wing nuts) do think they have some flesh to strip off of liberal hides for the way Bush was treated from the jump.

But Bush was not treated badly from the "jump." If you look at his approval rating in the first year he had over 90% approval rating, of which I was one. I did not know one person that objected to him invading Afghanistan. It was only after he started eyeing invading Iraq that he started getting negative feedback. I think if he had finished the job in Afghanistan and not invaded Iraq we would all have a different view of his presidency, even with Katrina and that damn drug bill.

283 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:38:20pm

re: #280 oaktree

Liberty Valence Defeeted!

That was a great, great scene-chewing role for a great character actor.

284 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:38:20pm

re: #88 Surabaya Stew

And Romney would have had a great chance of that, had he not pandered to the Right-wing during the 2008 GOP primary debates. (Of course, has McCain nominated him for Veep, he might be a shoo-in for 2012 right now!) As it stands, the only sane Republican I can think of is Jon Huntsman, and he's far away until 2016 at the earliest.

Romney made a mistake in 2008, but has distanced himself sufficiently that he is not tainted.

285 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:38:22pm

re: #164 Charles

This is the real root of Palin's climate change denial -- she's completely bought into the far religious right concept that mankind can't do anything to affect the earth's climate, and that it would be wrong to even try because it would be against God's will.

Worse than that, accepting any form of AGW is a flat out denial of God's existence.

286 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:38:22pm

re: #191 jaunte

Mr. Huntsman Goes to Beijing
[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

Thanks :)

287 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:39:07pm

re: #192 MandyManners

Don't worry. He'll blame Pres. Bush.

ROFLMAO!!!

288 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:39:17pm

re: #31 samsgran1948

Nicely put.

289 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:39:22pm

re: #284 _RememberTonyC

Romney made a mistake in 2008, but has distanced himself sufficiently that he is not tainted.


Ha! YouTube is forever.

290 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:39:41pm

re: #282 Kewalo

But Bush was not treated badly from the "jump."

They threw eggs at him at his inauguration!

291 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:40:44pm

re: #102 recusancy

Wasn't he a republican?

292 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:40:58pm

re: #284 _RememberTonyC

Romney made a mistake in 2008, but has distanced himself sufficiently that he is not tainted.

Agreed, assuming he keeps on distancing himself for the crazies for a couple of more years. He's been pretty quiet recently, which is a smart strategy in the current political climate.

293 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:41:06pm

re: #77 sagehen

No, he's vilified on a daily basis because he's vigorously opposing stuff that in 2006 he campaigned on vigorously supporting. And because he in the last election he vigorously supported, campaigned for, and spoke at the convention of, the other party's candidate. And then made a bunch more promises to the caucus to be able to retain his chairmanship... and has gone back on those promises too.

Just three months ago, in an on-camera interview, he suggested the medicare buy-in; in a caucus meeting he again brought it up as his preferred alternative to the public option. Now suddenly he hates it.

And just last week, he said he liked the bill and was going to vote for it until he heard that Anthony Weiner likes it -- but he can't support anything Anthony Weiner likes.

Joe should just call himself a Republican, because that's clearly what he is.


Joe doesn't need your advice. What is wrong with being a sane "slightly left of center" Independent Democrat? Does the party not offer a big tent for those who don't march in lockstep? Why does he need to pass YOUR loyalty test? He represents me perfectly well and he can call himself whatever he wants.

294 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:41:09pm

Obama Ordered U.S. Military Strike on Yemen Terrorists

One of the targeted sites was a suspected al Qaeda training camp north of the capitol, Sanaa, and the second target was a location where officials said "an imminent attack against a U.S. asset was being planned."

The Yemen attacks by the U.S. military represent a major escalation of the Obama administration's campaign against al Qaeda.

295 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:41:37pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

Oh lawdy...She must think if she and the fundies just pray everything will be just peachy keen...The right has pushed science off the cliff...then jumped off afterwards

heh... fundies.

296 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:41:55pm
297 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:42:05pm

re: #120 lawhawk

Annoying isn't it. Can't stand Huffingtonpost of DKos lately.

298 eneri  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:42:11pm

I cannot believe those fundies haven't been arrested.

299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:42:20pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Obama Ordered U.S. Military Strike on Yemen Terrorists

America! Fuck yeah!

300 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:42:30pm

re: #260 acacia

Someone ought to let her know that the earth didn't look much like it does today even 100 or 200 years ago let alone pre-Columbian days etc. We DO change the environment whether we plan to or not. My fear is that we don't have a very good track record when we actively attempt to change the environment like when we introduce non-native species to an area to fix one problem only to find that not only is the problem not fixed but 10 more are created. The only successful policy that I have seen is our efforts to combat pollution. We have succeeded there and should continue to do so. No matter where you come down on global warming, there can be no denying that it is better to use non-polluting, more efficient, energy sources.

I saw a series of photos a couple of years ago; I think it was at a National Park Service site, but I haven't been able to locate them again. Anyway, there were a few dozen photos taken of areas of the Southwest - around the Grand Canyon, southern Utah and other parts of that region - sometime in the late 1800s, when the area was still mostly empty except for Indians. All of the selected scenes were in spots now part of National Park land. Researchers had determined the exact location each photo was taken from, and had gone back and re-photographed the site. The pairs were presented side by side, and the difference was astonishing. Basically, the new ones were lush, with abundant trees and shrubs evident even in this desert environment, while those taken when the areas were inhabited by natives were completely sparse, often without even a weed in sight.

I don't know if this counts as a success of some kind or not, but the land conservation movement was born here and has enjoyed by far it's greatest success here.

301 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:42:36pm

re: #270 Gus 802

Did it? I got up at 1 PM. I imagine it involved the usual suspects.

Yeah, saw it first over at Memeorandom, and then in some emails.

302 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:43:42pm

re: #278 _RememberTonyC

he changed his mind when he saw the real costs ... I call that pragmatic and thoughtful.

He's also not there to play footsie with one party or the other. He's there to represent his constituency, and he certainly accomplished that.

303 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:44:01pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Dear lord may I puke?

304 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:44:04pm

re: #297 limewash

Annoying isn't it. Can't stand Huffingtonpost of DKos lately.

You mean they're not bastions of sanity?

305 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:44:27pm

gotta run, peeps ..... gonna get some mexican grub before the blizzard hits hartford.

306 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:44:27pm

re: #210 jaunte

Wiesenheimer Genealogy and Family Tree
[Link: www.genealogytoday.com...]

:))

307 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:45:04pm

re: #261 _RememberTonyC

i guess for you, "good man" really means "loyal to the PARTY." My definition differs from yours.

I guess my definition would be standing by your word.

308 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:45:46pm

re: #305 _RememberTonyC

Buen provecho

309 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:46:07pm

re: #304 Sharmuta

LOL, they were not as bad last year but now it's tabloid headlines and crap and I get enough of that from other MSM. Shame really. I enjoyed Dan Froomkin and other journalist there but can't stomach the bs anymore. Just want the news please not there interpretation of what news should be.

310 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:46:15pm

re: #77 sagehen


Joe should just call himself a Republican, because that's clearly what he is.

I'm totally in favor of the Democrats establishing ideological loyalty tests and purging members from the party who don't adhere to them.

311 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:46:54pm

re: #211 Kewalo

When Lieberman was elected as a so-called independent he promised to vote with the Democratic caucus in return for a committee chair. He has obviously gone back on his word. I don't call that being a "good man."


He is still a good man and he retained his Senate seat with no help from the Democratic party in his state. He owes them nothing.

312 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:48:25pm

re: #212 reine.de.tout

I'm afraid you might be right.

Errr we prefer to say we are errr... 'correct'. ///

313 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:49:01pm

re: #305 _RememberTonyC

gotta run, peeps ... gonna get some mexican grub before the blizzard hits hartford.

Stay warm and gassy!

I'm outa here too; bundling up tightly is good advice to all Lizards, we don't want our scales to fall off now....

314 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:49:04pm

re: #307 Kewalo

I guess my definition would be standing by your word.

Can you name a politician who has done that?

315 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:49:44pm

re: #310 SixDegrees

Uh, please no purity test. With the diversity over on the democratic side that would be an almost impossible feat. Joe is just opportunist and a narcissistic person who flows with his own wind. Doesn't matter if he's a republican or democrat, he seems like he's in it for him an not his constituants.

316 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:50:12pm

re: #271 wrenchwench

Finally! A [non-lethal] weapon against the tea partiers!

Cute!

317 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:50:18pm

re: #216 Rightwingconspirator

re: #203 Blueheron

awww come on now you two. This place can muster double digits easily. :)


Well you know us types. Whining is our forte. ///

318 allegro  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:50:51pm

re: #315 limewash

Uh, please no purity test. With the diversity over on the democratic side that would be an almost impossible feat. Joe is just opportunist and a narcissistic person who flows with his own wind. Doesn't matter if he's a republican or democrat, he seems like he's in it for him an not his constituants.

That.

319 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:51:00pm

Linux is whining about pending updates. One of them is a kernel patch, something I've had problems with in the past, so if I disappear it's because I fell into a deep Open Source hole and can't get out of it.

320 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:51:37pm

re: #314 Sharmuta

Can you name a politician who has done that?

Russ Feingold.

321 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:51:40pm

re: #315 limewash

Uh, please no purity test. With the diversity over on the democratic side that would be an almost impossible feat. Joe is just opportunist and a narcissistic person who flows with his own wind. Doesn't matter if he's a republican or democrat, he seems like he's in it for him an not his constituants.

I should have slapped a sarcasm tag on that post. Sorry if it wasn't evident.

322 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:51:46pm

re: #317 Blueheron

Okay as long as you count me IN.
#4

323 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:51:48pm

re: #315 limewash

Oh fer crying out loud! I don't think Lieberman is any more or less self-interested than any other politician. You'd think he was DC's biggest problem when it's business as usual coming from both sides that's the problem.

324 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:53:05pm

re: #323 Sharmuta

Oh fer crying out loud! I don't think Lieberman is any more or less self-interested than any other politician. You'd think he was DC's biggest problem when it's business as usual coming from both sides that's the problem.

Nelson just pulled off exactly what Lieberman did, and walked away with nearly a billion for his efforts.

325 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:53:27pm

re: #324 SixDegrees

Like I said- business as usual.

326 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:54:04pm

More from Sarah Palin: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

Earth saw clmate chnge4 ions;will cont 2 c chnges.R duty2responsbly devlop resorces4humankind/not pollute&destroy;but cant alter naturl chng

"Ions."

327 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:54:55pm

re: #326 Charles

More from Sarah Palin: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

"Ions."

Finally. Something posted by her that I can actually believe she wrote.

328 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:54:59pm

re: #323 Sharmuta
I really believe party is not the problem. Theocratic ideology and corporate interests. These two things are the heart of the rot. Opensecrets.org tells the tale on the corporate side.

329 Olsonist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:55:53pm

re: #19 Charles

And yet, she never does. Why do you think that is?

Silence is acquiescence. In her case, given her rhetoric, I think this is conscious, it's her meal ticket.

330 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:58:00pm

re: #290 Sharmuta

They threw eggs at him at his inauguration!

Well, he didn't have 100% approval ratings and some people WERE pretty unhappy with the election. But the people were supporting him.

[Link: www.hist.umn.edu...]

331 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:58:31pm

re: #326 Charles

I say Eons
You say Ions

Eons

Ions

Let's call the whole thing

Off

332 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:59:12pm

re: #327 Girth

Finally. Something posted by her that I can actually believe she wrote.

Clearly an example of her on neurons at work.

/

333 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:59:49pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Clearly an example of her on own neurons at work.

/

PIMF Speaking of neurons.

334 krypto  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:59:56pm

re: #311 Blueheron

He is still a good man and he retained his Senate seat with no help from the Democratic party in his state. He owes them nothing.

Joe Lieberman owed the American people and the people of Connecticut something however. The polls show at least 60% of the population in Connecticut in favor of the public option (with similar results for polls of the rest of the nation) despite being uncertain about the overall bill. Lieberman was one of the earlier sources of the proposal that came up to extend Medicare eligibility to 55 to 64 year olds. Yet he used his position of having the swing vote to block both the public option and even just extending Medicare eligibility from even being voted on. One senator denied millions of Americans any chance of even having the health care reform measure that a majority of Americans and a majority of people of Connecticut wanted from even being considered.

I don't see much reason to consider Lieberman a good man, or much else positive.

335 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:01:05pm

re: #330 Kewalo

You really expect me to think his pre-9/11 number were supportive? They weren't, so to paint his support based off his first year doesn't really work. There was BDS after the election, we all saw it, and the 9/11 support doesn't change history.

336 drogheda  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:01:17pm

re: #326 Charles

More from Sarah Palin: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

"Ions."

She seems to be particularly charged up.

337 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:01:19pm

Everybody who can, get a lot of exercise and stay in shape.


BBL.

338 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:01:49pm

re: #336 drogheda

She is electrifying her base.

339 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:02:50pm

re: #336 drogheda

Maybe she confused electrons and elections...

340 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:02:51pm

re: #326 Charles
....ions....
Hey, she's at least speaking scientific language for a change.

341 borgcube  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:03:00pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been checking and checking my copy of the Constitution, and I just can't find the part where we have the right to kill our elected officials.

Little help here?

Agreed. I also can't find the part where it says that the federal government can force me to buy something and/or punish me if I don't. Then again, I can't see about a trillion and one things in that document that the government does in there either.

342 drogheda  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:03:07pm

re: #338 Ojoe

She is electrifying her base.

Well they're hardly neutral.

343 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:03:29pm

re: #334 krypto

Joe Lieberman owed the American people and the people of Connecticut something however. The polls show at least 60% of the population in Connecticut in favor of the public option (with similar results for polls of the rest of the nation) despite being uncertain about the overall bill. Lieberman was one of the earlier sources of the proposal that came up to extend Medicare eligibility to 55 to 64 year olds. Yet he used his position of having the swing vote to block both the public option and even just extending Medicare eligibility from even being voted on. One senator denied millions of Americans any chance of even having the health care reform measure that a majority of Americans and a majority of people of Connecticut wanted from even being considered.

I don't see much reason to consider Lieberman a good man, or much else positive.

The way he's been acting, you'd think he was an independent. Oh....

344 samsgran1948  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:03:53pm

re: #109 Blueheron

I scrolled through this entire thread to read a post from a person who is disappointed in Nelson.
I thought he was holding out on principle. Maybe he was but they also greased his palm.
I am still waiting for the politician who has the guts to stand for his beliefs and not always for the pocketbooks of himself or his constituents.

I had my fingers crossed, and I was really hoping, but in my heart of hearts I knew Nelson would vote Dem in the end. He has on everything else, so why not this?

345 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:04:33pm

re: #337 Ojoe

Everybody who can, get a lot of exercise and stay in shape.

BBL.

Are you kidding? It's Christmas! Just at work, I've been eating pound cake and cheese balls for two weeks running.

346 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:04:47pm

re: #300 SixDegrees

Interesting. I agree that land conservation - at least in places - has been a remarkable success as well.

347 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:05:59pm

re: #342 drogheda

Well they're hardly neutral.

They think she's a real joule.

348 krypto  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:05:59pm

re: #343 The Sanity Inspector

The way he's been acting, you'd think he was an independent. Oh...

No, the way he's been acting, I would think he is a tool of the insurance lobby.

349 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:06:15pm

re: #206 Obdicut
And we know they're trustworthy.
Do you really put anything past the desperate dems to get something... anything passed?
Gotta hand it to Nelson for playing the game well... he just got his state exempted from paying its share of Medicaid under the new bill.
Forever.

350 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:06:16pm

re: #290 Sharmuta

They threw eggs at him at his inauguration!

AND, Katrina was not his fault.

351 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:07:16pm

re: #341 borgcube

Notice the Feds can not but the state can? You are required to buy auto insurance to drive. Permits to build. Workers Comp if you have employees.
55 mph was 50 state laws all in concert with the Fed.

352 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:07:27pm

re: #350 reine.de.tout

AND, Katrina was not his fault.

Of course not. It was Dick Cheney.

353 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:07:44pm

re: #350 reine.de.tout

Thank you! That one is a pet peeve of mine.

354 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #350 reine.de.tout

Yeah, but he did turn me into a newt...

355 Olsonist  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #341 borgcube

Agreed. I also can't find the part where it says that the federal government can force me to buy something and/or punish me if I don't. Then again, I can't see about a trillion and one things in that document that the government does in there either.

Really? Try looking at Article I and in particular the Necessary and Proper Clause.

356 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:09:26pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Yep!
I am too - always glad to see a padnuh, 'specially a newbie!

Thanks for rearranging the furniture for all us newbie lefties! Do the newbies know there is an excellent LGF cookbook for sale? Reine has the details.

357 Scrutineer  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:10:08pm

In fact, they’re calling for Nelson to be murdered.

AoS co-blogger Dave in Texas: "Die in flames Ben."

Can't believe this is on the front page, let alone in the comments.

358 tradewind  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:10:09pm

re: #351 Rightwingconspirator
Not apples and apples. No one forces you to drive a car or build a house. Existing, however, is not optional without taking drastic and irrevocable action.////

359 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:11:18pm

re: #311 Blueheron

He is still a good man and he retained his Senate seat with no help from the Democratic party in his state. He owes them nothing.

Then he shouldn't have given his word.

360 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:12:43pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

The koslings are calling Lieberman and Nelson nazi collaborators.

I'd like to thank recusancy for being the second person to denounce the nazi collaboration analogy. That brings the number of koslings objecting to it to 2.

361 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:12:47pm

re: #358 tradewind

No one forces you to drive a car

Um, actually in much or most of this country you cannot work (and thus eat) without doing this.

362 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:13:09pm

re: #356 prairiefire

Thanks for rearranging the furniture for all us newbie lefties! Do the newbies know there is an excellent LGF cookbook for sale? Reine has the details.

Thank you!
Yes, here it is; you can also click my nic. Folks really need to check out the artwork by Jaunte. Really special.

The cookbook is sold there, and there are special Gardening and Food posts by our very own Killgore Trout!

Volume 2 is currently in production.

And don't forget Charles' LGF Calendar, which is lovely, and I can say that for sure because I have one!

363 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:13:17pm

re: #349 tradewind

What are you talking about? Your accusation is based on a random allegation made my Michelle Malkin. That is not a good source.

364 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:13:35pm

re: #314 Sharmuta

Can you name a politician who has done that?

Sure, Sen Patty Murray & Sen Maria Cantwell. I am delighted with both of my senators and my congressman Adam Smith is very good too.

Yes, I know I'm lucky.

365 sagehen  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:13:44pm

re: #311 Blueheron

He is still a good man and he retained his Senate seat with no help from the Democratic party in his state. He owes them nothing.

He retained his Senate seat with help from, among others, Barack Obama. Lots of party stalwarts came and campaigned for him, even after he lost the primary.

Then there's the matter of his committee chair.

366 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:13:46pm

re: #278 _RememberTonyC

he changed his mind when he saw the real costs ... I call that pragmatic and thoughtful.

Do you think Arlen Spector has "lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment"?

367 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:14:27pm

re: #322 Rightwingconspirator

Okay as long as you count me IN.
#4

WHOA!! We are infiltrating everywhere! :))

368 Mocking Jay  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:15:32pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

I'd like to thank recusancy for being the second person to denounce the nazi collaboration analogy. That brings the number of koslings objecting to it to 2.

I updinged his objection on the thread in question. So there. :P

369 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:16:15pm

re: #317 Blueheron

Well you know us types. Whining is our forte. ///

Wow.
Impressive for a righty.
You used and spelled "forte" correctly.

370 Sharmuta  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:16:29pm

re: #368 JasonA

Maybe hot airheads will start speaking out, but I won't hold my breath.

371 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:17:21pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

I'd like to thank recusancy for being the second person to denounce the nazi collaboration analogy. That brings the number of koslings objecting to it to 2.

There are so many comments so quickly on posts there that most people don't read every one. As soon as a post is made on the front page there'll be about 100 comments in a couple minutes at least.

372 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:17:25pm

re: #326 Charles

More from Sarah Palin: Sarah Palin (SarahPalinUSA) on Twitter

"Ions."


No one should try to talk policy on Twitter. I can't understand most of what she wrote but then again would she do any better on an op ed page?

373 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:18:03pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

Unless you are downwind. In that case do hold your breath.

374 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:19:21pm

re: #364 Kewalo

Sure, Sen Patty Murray & Sen Maria Cantwell. I am delighted with both of my senators and my congressman Adam Smith is very good too.

Yes, I know I'm lucky.

And Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio. Nice head of hair on that one, too.

375 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:19:25pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

Maybe hot airheads will start speaking out, but I won't hold my breath.

Pointless. They'll just be shouted down. And leave.

Those attempting to be the voice of reason are the most likely to give up when met with sheer, irrational hatred. Flip the situation around, however, and the outcome is entirely reversed. That's why any unmoderated forum inevitably drifts into a cesspit of extremist hatred.

376 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:20:09pm
377 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:20:41pm

re: #375 SixDegrees

Pointless. They'll just be shouted down. And leave.

Those attempting to be the voice of reason are the most likely to give up when met with sheer, irrational hatred. Flip the situation around, however, and the outcome is entirely reversed. That's why any unmoderated forum inevitably drifts into a cesspit of extremist hatred.

Where will they go?

378 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:21:00pm

Well, as Linux updates go, that one was relatively painless. I did something horrible to my video driver, but I've seen that problem before and had a fix ready and waiting to apply. So far, back in business, unscathed.

379 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:21:37pm

re: #362 reine.de.tout
Great art work!
Really colorful, humanoid lizards at a formal dinner party. Serving yummy lizard dinner. The books that line the bookshelves of the tastefully appointed dinning room are printed with regular posters' lizard names.

380 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:22:52pm

re: #349 tradewind

And we know they're trustworthy.
Do you really put anything past the desperate dems to get something... anything passed?
Gotta hand it to Nelson for playing the game well... he just got his state exempted from paying its share of Medicaid under the new bill.
Forever.


And we get to pay it for them.

381 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:23:55pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Where will they go?

Some wind up here. I'm sure there are other places, but I don't spend a lot of time looking.

And, of course, there's the real world, which is much larger and more interesting than the Internet. After my close encounter with an Internet stalker, I swore off forums for about three years, and just read the articles. I happened to be reading something here when registration opened up, and so far it's been much more pleasant than my earlier experience.

But as a practical matter, people often just leave, I think.

382 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:25:02pm

re: #381 SixDegrees

What site was the stalker from?

383 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:25:12pm

re: #375 SixDegrees

I've seen that with most on-line communities of one sort or another. Things seem to sink to a certain least common denominator level of behavior that essentially is determined by the level of civility and decorum that the moderators and administrators are willing to put in the work to enforce.

Blogs, forums, MUDs, etc. Anarchy essentially doesn't work unless you want to interact in an environment that is totally dog-eat-dog and enjoys wallowing in insult, invective, and irrationality.

384 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:26:20pm

re: #382 recusancy

What site was the stalker from?

CNN's news forums.

385 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:26:48pm

re: #374 Jeff In Ohio

And Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio. Nice head of hair on that one, too.

I hadn't considered their hair. But I wouldn't be unhappy to live in Sen. Browns state. I've seen him several times on TV and he seems like he has something inside his head too and not just on the top.

386 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:26:54pm

re: #369 reine.de.tout

Wow.
Impressive for a righty.
You used and spelled "forte" correctly.


Aw shucks.... :)

387 OneMonkeysUncle  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:32:10pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Where will they go?

LGF.

Thanks, lovely to be here, really enjoying the place.

;-)

388 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:34:48pm

re: #387 OneMonkeysUncle

Welcome. I'm a relatively-recent joiner, too, and it's been a breath of fresh air. Come join the sanity.

389 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:37:32pm

Charles,

I know it's been said many times, many ways, but thank you for Little Green Footballs, and thank you personally. It's nice to a have a rational port in a storm when both radical left, and radical right seem hell bound determined to get their way regardless of the people who get hurt.

390 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:39:36pm

re: #383 oaktree

I've seen that with most on-line communities of one sort or another. Things seem to sink to a certain least common denominator level of behavior that essentially is determined by the level of civility and decorum that the moderators and administrators are willing to put in the work to enforce.

Blogs, forums, MUDs, etc. Anarchy essentially doesn't work unless you want to interact in an environment that is totally dog-eat-dog and enjoys wallowing in insult, invective, and irrationality.

The reason for this is that the most obsessed and crazy people are also the most relentless. They'll continue spewing hatred and insanity endlessly, and they'll drive out anyone sane, if moderators don't take charge and put a stop to it.

It's not possible to have a decent discussion forum on the web without strong moderation.

391 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:40:45pm

re: #390 Charles

The reason for this is that the most obsessed and crazy people are also the most relentless. They'll continue spewing hatred and insanity endlessly, and they'll drive out anyone sane, if moderators don't take charge and put a stop to it.

It's not possible to have a decent discussion forum on the web without strong moderation.

One could say that about society in general, not just cyberspace.

392 recusancy  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:42:00pm

re: #391 acwgusa

One could say that about society in general, not just cyberspace.

Which is why we need reporters calling people like Inhofe ridiculous and not just putting him on even ground as if the debate is 50/50.

393 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:44:39pm

re: #392 recusancy

Which is why we need reporters calling people like Inhofe ridiculous and not just putting him on even ground as if the debate is 50/50.

I trust reporters at this point in time as much as I trust Inhofe (which is zero), thanks mostly to Charles and his fact-checking.

394 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:45:08pm

re: #390 Charles

The reason for this is that the most obsessed and crazy people are also the most relentless. They'll continue spewing hatred and insanity endlessly, and they'll drive out anyone sane, if moderators don't take charge and put a stop to it.

It's not possible to have a decent discussion forum on the web without strong moderation.

Here's a sad casualty of runaway comment threads, from the K-sphere

395 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:46:07pm

re: #381 SixDegrees

Some wind up here. I'm sure there are other places, but I don't spend a lot of time looking.

And, of course, there's the real world, which is much larger and more interesting than the Internet. After my close encounter with an Internet stalker, I swore off forums for about three years, and just read the articles. I happened to be reading something here when registration opened up, and so far it's been much more pleasant than my earlier experience.

But as a practical matter, people often just leave, I think.

The loss of moderate voices is never a good thing.

396 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:46:37pm

re: #391 acwgusa

One could say that about society in general, not just cyberspace.

Er, no we couldn't. There's a word for societies which practice "strong moderation" of their citizens' freedom of speech.

397 Alan K. Henderson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:48:54pm

What percentage of Malkin commenters do those three represent?

Wasn't there a time when LGF would get demonized for the remarks of three whackball commenters?

398 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:51:33pm

I just searched for "scaramouche" and got this at wiki:

Wikipedia is a stalking mill designed to stroke the egos of social reprobates and other fringe groups who don't belong in normal society. The people who are there long term and essentially live there for the most part fit the profiles of true sociopaths.

Wales developed a great gaming system on Wikipedia which he uses to attract the dregs of society -- people who don't have lives are who aspire to be "famous and great" are [h]is marks and he's come up with a rat maze to lure in the stupid, lonley, and ignorant.

I've been famous and in the public eye for what now -- 15 years? I have to say, power, fame, and attribution are overrated. There's a simple wisdom is simply accepting who you are and being happy about it. None of the psycho trolls on Wikipedia seem happy, it's a perpetual war zone and highly competitive. But what elludes all of them is the cheese at the end of the maze -- there is none -- just the smell of cheese.

Wales and his cronies just whore all of these idiots through their "Wikigame" (The site is an online gaming system essentially -- see who can get to the end as an "Admin" or "Arbitor"). Wikimedia then cashes in on everyone's hard work.

When was the last time Wales took one of his admins to get a massage as a russian house of ill repute on Wikimedia's dime? But HE DOES.

Bottom line, its a bunch of morons being used to run his business for free, while his cronies back at the Wikimedia offices cash in on everyones hard work and pay themselves 300K+ salaries per year, divert and misappropriate the funds and live the good life by living in fancy hotels and eating fancy meals while the rest of the stupid schmucks live in their mom's basement or their trailer parks in New Jersey and Alabama while Wales and his cronies cash in on YOUR HARD WORK.

It's got to be the second biggest scam after Linux development. Linus Torvalds has a similar model. Let people "contribute" so they feel good about themselves, while the project and site owners rake in the $$$.

Retrieved from "[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

399 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:51:47pm

re: #396 The Sanity Inspector

Er, no we couldn't. There's a word for societies which practice "strong moderation" of their citizens' freedom of speech.

I was referring in general to people's action in society, not freedom of speech.

And, the U.S. does have moderation on Freedom of speech, not just to a totalitarian degree. You can yell fire in a crowded theater, just cover your head when the stampede starts.

400 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:52:09pm

re: #397 Alan K. Henderson

What percentage of Malkin commenters do those three represent?

Wasn't there a time when LGF would get demonized for the remarks of three whackball commenters?

I don't know what the percentage is of Malkin comments who make hateful and vile statements. I do know her threads are full of them.

And I also know from personal experience it's impossible to go over there and make any sense of the conversation, or to make any headway, as an individual commenter, in getting people to tone down.

That place is a mess.
And that's putting it nicely.

401 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:52:40pm

re: #399 acwgusa

I was referring in general to people's action in society, not freedom of speech.

And, the U.S. does have moderation on Freedom of speech, not just to a totalitarian degree. You can yell fire in a crowded theater, just cover your head when the stampede starts.

Wow, I botched that. It should read just not to.

402 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:53:03pm

re: #397 Alan K. Henderson

What percentage of Malkin commenters do those three represent?

Wasn't there a time when LGF would get demonized for the remarks of three whackball commenters?

Charles would delete such comments and would block the accounts of those who make them.

403 RexMundi  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:01:02pm

re: #52 Charles

...And the kind of hate mail I've been getting from right wingers is also way WAY more extreme than anything I received from left wingers -- including threats.

You should post these things openly. Expose these nutbars.

404 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:04:33pm

re: #172 lostlakehiker

I have real misgivings about this health bill. What of the future? Crippling shortages of skilled professionals figure to be the natural consequence of truncating their pay.


Do what other countries do, give them education and tax incentives.

If prescription prices are capped at a small multiple of the cost of production, where are the funds to come from with which to develop the next generation of antibiotics? Evolution takes no vacations; the bacteria of tomorrow will have made some progress at surviving the antibiotics of today. It's an unremitting arms race. We cannot rest on our laurels.

I'm not sure where you got the idea big pharma would pack up and leave if their profits drop, but they'll go where the money is, and even at a smaller profit than current, the money is still in North America.

If the patient never has to pay any actual cash out of pocket, what is to inhibit hypochondriacs from monopolizing the time of doctors who must see them again, and again, and again?

What is more important, the deaths of those who currently cannot afford care, or the inability of a doctor to creatively deal with hypochondriacs?


If the patient never has to cover some fraction of the cost of expensive procedures, won't the expensive procedures be rationed by some sort of triage, instead?

There is already rationing by triage, but the triage is based on income instead of medical severity.


It won't likely be rationed by lottery. The stimulus funds went largely to Democratic districts.

Evidence?

What reason is there to expect that tomorrow's rationing of scarce goods won't be a matter of having a friendly (democrat) congress-critter who can get you in with a doctor?

It wouldn't be as bad as it is now.

At best, Republican districts would find their medical infrastructures starved of funds, unable to provide proper care or any advanced care. More likely, all regions would find their institutions starved of funds. The proposed scale of spending just doesn't match up with the proposed means of funding it.

Are you also a truther/birther/tenther/UFOist?

How many countries are there that have both private and public health where the costs/person are lower than the US?

405 freetoken  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:09:25pm

re: #398 MandyManners

Why the long attack about wikipedia, then followed up with a link to a book review at wikipedia?

406 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:10:12pm

re: #195 SixDegrees

Minor correction. It's much more likely that there are two creation myths in there because there was, at some point, a blending of two separate, somewhat related stories.

Each book of the Bible had several authors. Either that or Moses, the putative author of the Pentateuch, was closely related to Sybil Dorsett and shared her affliction.

407 RexMundi  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:11:09pm

re: #118 Girth

Probably the biggest thing that disgusts me about the right wing right now is their attitude about science and education. Until the GOP fixes that, I won't be back.

I regret that I have but one upding to give to your comment.

408 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:11:28pm

re: #320 sagehen

Damn right. THE only good senator.

William

409 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:15:27pm

Hot Air commenter calls for hangings:

[Link: hotair.com...]

That is because this is a Coup de Etat. The Commies have taken over.

Reid, Pelosi and the rest of those who voted to take the Liberty of their fellow citizens away, need to go to the gallows, or at least to jail for life.

In the Consitution, there were only 3 Federal crimes, Piracy, Counterfieting and TREASON. I think a Jury of those affected by this could help those offenders to the rope for a dance.

410 Girth  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:17:22pm

re: #409 simoom

In some people's worlds, a coup de tat is getting more votes than the other guy.

411 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:17:23pm

re: #399 acwgusa

I was referring in general to people's action in society, not freedom of speech.

And, the U.S. does have moderation on Freedom of speech, not just to a totalitarian degree. You can yell fire in a crowded theater, just cover your head when the stampede starts.

Okay, gotcha. Just so's you're not slipping into the maw of The Totatlitarian Temptation.

412 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:18:53pm

re: #409 simoom

I'm surprised that commenter wasn't drummed out for using French...

///

413 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:21:20pm

re: #218 MandyManners

Surely you're joking. That's about all he's done since he got into office.

When and where?

414 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:23:56pm

re: #401 acwgusa

Wow, I botched that. It should read just not to.

Don't worry, I feel ya.

415 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:25:27pm

re: #236 jaunte

That's not an argument!

Yes it is.

416 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:27:07pm

re: #246 oaktree

I think the right wing went into the wrong room and mistook Abuse for an Argument... ;)

No they didn't.

417 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:28:13pm

re: #409 simoom

Hot Air commenter calls for hangings:

[Link: hotair.com...]

Notice that Ed Morrissey is citing "Patriot Room" -- a Birther blog.

418 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:32:22pm

re: #257 Rightwingconspirator

Did!

This argument is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! THIS IS A LATE ARGUMENT!

419 William of Orange  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:33:09pm

re: #257 Rightwingconspirator

Did!

No you didn't.

420 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:36:42pm

re: #290 Sharmuta

They threw eggs at him at his inauguration!

He ducked didn't he?

421 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:40:11pm

re: #307 Kewalo

I guess my definition would be standing by your word.

Blindly standing by your word when there is enough fresh evidence that you should change your mind is a sign of a rigid personality. That isn't good.

422 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:42:48pm

re: #327 Girth

Finally. Something posted by her that I can actually believe she wrote.

"chnge4 ions"

What does that mean?

423 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:43:29pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

On behalf of those with no voice, I hope Sen. Nelson enjoys his 30 pieces of silver.

He deserves thirty pieces of lead.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Anyone here know how to build a missile? We need to wipe out this congress and start over.
424 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:46:18pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

Praying the angel of death would come for Senator Bryd and perhaps a few other Senators. Praying for a massive spirit of choas and confusion to reign over the Senate. God sent a snow storm to try slowing this down, God bring the next wave to stop this. This bill is evil as are the people voting for it.

[Link: hotair.com...]

All that is left is pray and pray hard for divine intervention to stop this thing.
425 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:49:31pm

re: #424 simoom

Here we go again. Lots and lots of "revolution" talk in that thread too.

426 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:52:44pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

After their trial for Treason, there will be plenty of room for RINOS, whether they are proud of not, on the Gallows.

Mussolini’s fate was piano wire.

427 Mark Pennington  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:55:05pm

Kudo's for staying on top of this, Charles. It is beyond the pale and shouldn't be ignored. I tweeted a comment from a so-called Christian at HotAir this morning. This despicable person was praying for the death of democratic politicians. His/her username link was linked to a church that I assume he/she attends.

428 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:57:50pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

Time of the gentiles draws closer to its end.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Are we going to have to march on Washington with torches and pitchforks?

[Link: hotair.com...]

these pieces of sh1t need to be driven out of Washington by any means necessary.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Would it be wrong to pray that Swine Flu hits DC hard this week?

[Link: hotair.com...]

Cave-in Nelson had better think about retirement…….in another state!
429 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 4:59:29pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

Rot in hell, Ben Nelson. Everyone I’ve ever met from Nebraska is a gem, but you are an evil scumbag. May you be locked in a Tristan & Isolde embrace with that other scumbag Harry Reid for eternity.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Bastards..this is what he is….rot in hell you moron senator.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Watching Nelson on Fox News now. What’s the complaint? He’s doing exactly what you would expect from a democrap.

May he rot in hell with all who vote for this America killer!

[Link: hotair.com...]

Ben Nelson, and all your com-padres,
I wish you an eternity of fitful, sleepless nights plagued by he vision of being eternally tormented & roasting in Hell.

You traitorous, stubborn fools.

30 pieces of silver indeed.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Well… seems Chavez was right… There is the smell of sulfur coming from DC…
430 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:00:40pm

Unbelievable.

OK, time for the next 'Hot Air Comments of the Day' post.

431 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:01:43pm

One sec, I have a compilation of the revolution comments too. Let me see if they fit :p.

432 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:05:53pm

Revolution:

[Link: hotair.com...]

The senators act as if they’ve been promised martial law and a suspension of elections next year, plus nice hunks of that phantom government money.

My prediction: nothing short of masses of citizens storming Capitol Hill and keeping these bloodsucking traitors forcibly from doing their reprehensible work will stop the bill.

Osama Obama’s speechwriters are probably polishing his signing speech even now.

[Link: hotair.com...]

There is no need for a rebellion when the government fears the people. One would imagine that in 1809 there was a sufficient fear of the people as to keep the government in check.

This is no longer the case. The government has no fear of the American people whatsoever. That is a sure recipe for a disaster.

Until the government starts fearing the people again, there will be no liberty, there will be no freedom.

[Link: hotair.com...]

No foreign enemy has ever inflicted such grievous damage and may the names Specter, Nelson, Lieberman, Lincoln and Landrieu (along with Pelosi, Reid and Obama) be forever cursed along with Benedict Arnold and may their graves be defiled and their souls roast for eternity.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Is it time for the revolution to begin yet? I’m ready.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Like I said on another thread … Republic of Texas anyone? The Republic of Alaska would be too dang cold.

[Link: hotair.com...]

This bill gets signed into law and I will secede from the United States.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Watershed for revolution.

[Link: hotair.com...]

For 25 years people have scoffed at me for saying Red Dawn was an accurate picture of the future.

[Link: hotair.com...]

But we Texans are getting really really ansy.

Been seeing more and more of those bright red “SECEDE!” bumper stickers lately.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Well then, your state better be prepared to receive MILLIONS of new citizens.

Here we come.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Seems that the Tree of Liberty grows thirsty. What is happening now is EXPRESSLY against the way that the founders envisioned. They would be locking and loading right now for a sleigh ride into downtown DC.

Why are we not?

[Link: hotair.com...]

As for seccession….bring it. Because as it’s going, I don’t want the governments health care. I’d rather die than live in a socialist/communist/fascist country. I was born in the land of the free, and the home of the brave. That is how I want to leave this world. Knowing America is still…..America!!! It saddens me to see this coming down the pike.

Ran out of space -- one more post in a sec.

433 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:07:18pm

re: #397 Alan K. Henderson

What percentage of Malkin commenters do those three represent?

Wasn't there a time when LGF would get demonized for the remarks of three whackball commenters?

The majority of comments at Malkin's site differ little from those offered here. It generally takes only a very few seconds to find such rubbish, and the density of it is high.

434 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:07:55pm

re: #432 simoom

[Link: hotair.com...]

Buy more ammo. Be ready

[Link: hotair.com...]

I’ve been loading Pmags all morning.

And before SimpleSimon calls me a redneck, I am a redneck and proud of it.

C’mon down to Georgia if you want to cull me, and bring friends.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Dan Perrin via RS:

What comes next is very discomforting to think about. But we have now crossed that line from what our country was into something else, and that something else has nothing whatsoever with the country being a Republic. There will be a reckoning for this, and it will not be pleasant — not for anyone.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Revolution 2.0

[Link: hotair.com...]

The United States of America will be the United Soviet States of Amerika on Christmas eve. Wow – Happy Winter Solstice, comrades!

Buy a gun if you know what is good for you. At least you can go down fighting.

[Link: hotair.com...]

On Tue, Mark Levin predicted civil unrest if HCR is enacted.

Just sayin.

[Link: hotair.com...]

The Second Amendment was put into the Constitution for a reason and it was not self defense.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Great, another win for the feckless crapweasels. Is it time to start the revolution yet?

[Link: hotair.com...]

wonder how this is all going to play out? Countries are not easily collapsed when its citizens are armed… I can hear big trouble coming. People are WIDE awake now.

[Link: hotair.com...]

I don’t yet know if this is just a further step in the dismantling of our once great nation, or if it will be the spark that ignites the same fires that stoked our ancestors to fight and die for what would become the greatest nation in human history.

And if none of that happens, then it will be time to either secede or dissolve the union.

[Link: hotair.com...]

It,s plain to see that the fools don,t listen or care what the people want.The days of phone calls rallies or Emails or over.The day of revolution is near.I for one will not just sit back and say Oh well nothing we can do.These people are traders and are shredding the constitution.If we don,t make a stand now then when?We must have new people running that say plain and simple .We are going to Washington to roll back and over turn as much of Obama socialism as we can not to work with this Marxist Pres. on anything.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Agreed. These politicians are trampling on our liberties by bankrupting us and controlling our personal health decisions but where does that leave us then?

What are our options?

Is it coming to Revolution?

Err, out of space again. One more yet...

435 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:10:41pm

re: #434 simoom

[Link: hotair.com...]

The mission isn’t over yet.The next phase is the streets. Will you be there?

With my pitchfork. Seriously. I want them to try to take it away from me and then cart me off to jail.

[Link: hotair.com...]

If the knuckleheads in Congress continue on this route, a people’s revolution is just outright inevitable. I roll my eyes at the keyboard commandos, but the economic collapse that’s about to hit us will eventually leave a large percentage of the passionate, gun-owning population with little or nothing to lose. And that is a very dangerous combination.

Now the likely outcome is anybody’s guess. But I think I can say with certainty that IF the revolutionaries are victorious, Old Glory will be minus a few stars for the time being.

[Link: hotair.com...]

I am no way calling for armed revolution, I am saying that it is unavoidable. The only unknowns are when and the results. Could be decades of statist rule before enough people rise up, however, the longer the wait the less chance of success.

I’ll call for it. When does the shooting start?

[Link: hotair.com...]

The key is what will the military do? They’re sworn to uphold the Constitution and challenge or disobey unlawful orders.

A good point. One thing the revolutionaries might do is to keep in mind that focusing on the body count alone is a poor strategy, especially in this case.

And then of course there’s the old trick of targeting the officers first. Heck, we did that last time to the British! Won’t work as well this time, of course, but probably still worth a look.

[Link: hotair.com...]

If this isn’t the trigger for revolution….I’m not sure what is.

There can be no further doubt that we have a tyranical government not representing the will of the people.

This is what the Framers knew would happened, tried to safeguard againt when the Constitution was drafted and warned of us repeatedly.

Their fears are now being played out right in front of our eyes and we all continue to sit back and wonder WHEN we should take action?!

How much more blatant can it get before true patriots decide to take action and try and stop this steamroller?

The time is nigh…

[Link: hotair.com...]

When the NRA organizes a march on Washington then it will be time. The NRA will be the vehicle. If they call their members to show up at the Capitol they will absolutely show up.

K done.

436 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:13:04pm

Oh. My. God.

437 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:15:54pm

re: #404 b_sharp


How many countries are there that have both private and public health where the costs/person are lower than the US?

Such comparisons are difficult to impossible to make. US health care costs reflect all health care costs, no matter who charges them or who pays for them. It includes the cost of every tummy tuck, breast augmentation, dick enlargement, botox injection, vein strip and scores of other elective procedures. Countries with nationalized systems routinely report only those procedures which are covered by those systems; elective procedures are available, but the tallies don't reflect their cost.

There are other difficulties as well, but the difference in accounting for such costs is very large.

438 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:19:07pm

re: #436 Charles

The one about the NRA leading the way is probably the funniest.

But they're all horrifying.


And then of course there’s the old trick of targeting the officers first. Heck, we did that last time to the British! Won’t work as well this time, of course, but probably still worth a look.

That's actually calling for the intentional killing of US military officers. Right after Fort Hood. Shame beyond shame.

439 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:23:58pm

re: #438 Obdicut

But they're all horrifying.

That's actually calling for the intentional killing of US military officers. Right after Fort Hood. Shame beyond shame.

That one stood out for me too -- casually / clinically strategizing about how to deal with the military if they won't side with the revolutionaries. Completely sick and twisted.

440 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:31:53pm

re: #429 simoom

Oops, missed one in my compilation of commentors wishing for folks to burn in hell:

[Link: hotair.com...]

No foreign enemy has ever inflicted such grievous damage and may the names Specter, Nelson, Lieberman, Lincoln and Landrieu (along with Pelosi, Reid and Obama) be forever cursed along with Benedict Arnold and may their graves be defiled and their souls roast for eternity.
441 simoom  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:41:20pm

Sorry about this, I'm just finishing clearing out everything I pulled from the Hot Air Ben Nelson Health Care thread. This is the last set.

These are all just commentors predicting the end of freedom, martial law, doom, etc because Ben Nelson will be voting for cloture...

[Link: hotair.com...]

Violating the laws of God has consequences for individuals and nations. We are witnessing the consequences of the efforts to replace the moral law upon which this nation was founded, with the wisdom of men; the consequences thereof, a nation in decline and headed toward doom.

[Link: hotair.com...]

The senators act as if they’ve been promised martial law and a suspension of elections next year, plus nice hunks of that phantom government money.

My prediction: nothing short of masses of citizens storming Capitol Hill and keeping these bloodsucking traitors forcibly from doing their reprehensible work will stop the bill.

Osama Obama’s speechwriters are probably polishing his signing speech even now.

[Link: hotair.com...]

They don’t care because there will be no 2010 elections. There will be a national emergency and elections will be suspended for the good of the country. Within two years the Senate will be dissolved and our republic will be replaced with a parliamentary system used by much of Europe.

It’s that simple and it will work and it will happen. The coup is well underway and there is nothing and I do mean nothing that can stop it.

[Link: hotair.com...]

After seeing the disgusting displays this past week of Sanders, and Franken….and now Grayson calling for imprisonment for critics….why do I get this pit in my stomach? I seriously have this strong feeling that dems are not worried about re-election. Something is coming, and I suspect it’s dems declaring themselves the only legal party in this country, and making themselves life long appointments in Congress. The same for the Obama’s.

[Link: hotair.com...]

What is the statute of limitations on bribery, because what has happened here, from obama dealing dirty with big Pharma, etc., to what we call “pork” handouts, which is OUR tax dollars being used as a bottomless slush fund by Reid and Pelosi – And don’t forget bribery goes both ways, in the offering as well as the accepting. IF the vote isn’t nullified by Acorn & Co. in 2010, which I have my doubts about because $200 billion of the “stimulus” money has already been spent and no one knows where a lot of it went; surely the Dems made sure Acorn and co. received a nice piece of that $200 billion, then all of them, from obama on down need to be locked up for the third world criminals they are. If these tyrants are allowed to use our hard earned money to buy their dream of dictatorship from our elected “representatives” – then there is no recovering America.

[Link: hotair.com...]

That feeling you all have right now…that feeling of hopelessness, that feeling of not being able to control your future, of becoming a subject instead of the citizen you were born, of having the government dictate to you what to buy, and what will happen to you if you refuse,…that feeling…is how they feel in Caracas everyday. Welcome to tyranny.
442 Sheepdogess  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 5:52:52pm
443 Kruk  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:06:29pm

re: #423 simoom

Mega updings for having the strength and patience to wade through all that bile.

444 The Left  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:27:38pm

re: #441 simoom

What Kruk said.(443)

Seriously, thank you so much for pulling on the boots and wading in there to bring us all these. I can't stand the place. These comments are worse than I even imagined.
I would like to be able to laugh at these people, but the truth is I can't-- they scare the hell out of me. Oh, I'm sure most of them are Keyboard Kommandos who are just dreaming of bloodshed and wouldn't engage in it....but the anger and hate in those comments is real, and it terrifies me.

What is going on? Passage of a health care bill makes them dream of revolution? WHAT. THE. FUCK.
I thought the country went crazy under Bush, but it looks like we were only getting started.

445 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 7:37:07pm
446 maxwellp  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 8:34:07pm

I am upset about the special treatment the state of Nebraska is receiving. If Nelson thinks this bill is good, then vote for it. Don't make the other 49 states pick up Nebraska's tab.

447 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 9:29:12pm
448 limewash  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:33:59pm

re: #321 SixDegrees

heh, sorry forgot the snark. My bad.

449 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 8:01:06am

re: #366 recusancy

Do you think Arlen Spector has "lot of political courage and is a man who has damn good judgment"?

that all depends on which SPECIFIC issues Spector changed his mind on ... which ones do you praise him for "coming around" on? Please be specific. Otherwise I will have to conclude that you simply consider him a "traitor" because he changed parties.

450 ChicagoJohn  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:10pm

Charles,

I remember a time when people used to accuse you of supporting those who posted nasty things on your page.
As you said at the time, just because someone posts something stupid, it doesn't mean you agree with it.

Whats going on?

451 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 6:16:54am

re: #450 ChicagoJohn
Why are you posting this in a long dead thread after Charles posted the overnight thread? What's going on?

Sorry but specific threats of violence to politicians or others never lived long here that I recall, and I've been around a long while.

When Charles and others have been calling these comments out for weeks it's especially odious that they can't find the time to check their comments periodically.

Why you are supporting someone who this moring has an anti israel VDARE story in her sidebar is beyond me.


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