Politifact’s Lie of the Year: ‘Death Panels’

Politics • Views: 6,692

The indispensable Politifact website has named their Lie of the Year, and it came from the pen of none other than Sarah Palin, you betcha: PolitiFact’s Lie of the Year: ‘Death panels’.

Of all the falsehoods and distortions in the political discourse this year, one stood out from the rest.

“Death panels.”

The claim set political debate afire when it was made in August, raising issues from the role of government in health care to the bounds of acceptable political discussion. In a nod to the way technology has transformed politics, the statement wasn’t made in an interview or a television ad. Sarah Palin posted it on her Facebook page.

Her assertion — that the government would set up boards to determine whether seniors and the disabled were worthy of care — spread through newscasts, talk shows, blogs and town hall meetings. Opponents of health care legislation said it revealed the real goals of the Democratic proposals. Advocates for health reform said it showed the depths to which their opponents would sink. Still others scratched their heads and said, “Death panels? Really?”

The editors of politifact.com, the fact-checking Web site of the St. Petersburg Times, have chosen it as our inaugural “Lie of the Year.”

PolitiFact readers overwhelmingly supported the decision. Nearly 5,000 voted in a national poll to name the biggest lie, and 61 percent chose “death panels” from a field of eight finalists. (See the complete results.)

This is the story of how two words generated intense heat in the national debate over health care.

Read the whole thing. This was the fear-mongering nadir of a year filled with right wing low points.

(Hat tip: Naso Tang.)

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187 comments
1 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:45:25am

They are correct, but I'm not sure if it's the lie of the year. Sarah's intent was clear when she painted the picture by putting her son it.

2 freetoken  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:47:44am

"Death panels" for thee,
Best Seller for me.
Speciousness, thy name is Sarah.

3 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:48:25am

I see that Bachman also made the list of liars:

3.2 percent: The claim that Page 92 of the House health care bill "says specifically that people can’t purchase private health insurance after a date certain," said by Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn.
4 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:49:11am

And the runners-up ...
Second place....

With 12.3 percent of the vote, a claim by conservative talk show host Glenn Beck that John Holdren, President Barack Obama's top science adviser, "has proposed forcing abortions and putting sterilants in the drinking water to control population."


That one was initiated by ex-lizard zombie.

5 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:52:02am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

And the runners-up ...
Second place...


That one was initiated by ex-lizard zombie.

And that was where I began to really part ways with zombie. I found that incredibly distasteful and wrong-headed.

6 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:52:05am

Sometimes I think the entire right wing objection to health care boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure.

7 austin_blue  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:52:29am

re: #1 Thanos

They are correct, but I'm not sure if it's the lie of the year. Sarah's intent was clear when she painted the picture by putting her son it.

Lie of the year? This is certainly a good candidate. Bu there are others that are worthy.

"Global warming is a hoax."

"The Demonrats' sole desire is for the country to be entirely socialist."

"Capitalism is in its death throes because of Obama."

One could go on and on......

8 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:52:41am

In Sarah Palin's "defense", by her own admission it's only a lie if you take it literally.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:52:57am

re: #1 Thanos

I can't really think of a bigger one. Glenn Beck is a constant source of nonsense so he might have some others that get overlooked. I think the story about Obama closing all the Republican owned car dealers should have been in the running. Also the story that Obama was going to use Tarp to nationalize the banks. That appeared in the Wall Street Journal.

10 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #5 Charles

me too. She followed up with a dishonest essay on Presidential death threats at protests and I knew it was all over.

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:54:34am

re: #8 Right Handed Neutrino

by her own admission it's only a lie if you take it literally.


Heh.

12 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:55:26am

re: #7 austin_blue

Lie of the year? This is certainly a good candidate. Bu there are others that are worthy.

"Global warming is a hoax."

"The Demonrats' sole desire is for the country to be entirely socialist."

"Capitalism is in its death throes because of Obama."

One could go on and on...

It's not limited to the right

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"
"Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials"
"Allow five days of public comment before signing bills"

13 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:55:44am

re: #6 Semper Fi

Sometimes I think the entire right wing objection to health care boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure.

FTFY

*sigh*

Since when is the desire to improve health care evil? Even if one side is getting the methodology wrong, the intent is decent.

14 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:55:54am

The real odious part was the follow on attempt to smear Rahm Emmanuel's brother because he has to examine the ethics of life and death in his position.

15 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:56:37am

I'm askeert of death panels! Oh noes! The gubmint's gonna kill me! Laws yes!

M-O-O-N! That spells Death Panel!

16 austin_blue  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:58:35am

re: #12 sattv4u2

It's not limited to the right

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"
"Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials"
"Allow five days of public comment before signing bills"

I don't disagree, but look at the *scale* of what you mention compared to the list! I don't think it's even close.

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:59:43am

re: #16 austin_blue

Just ain't following anyone blindly.

18 Seltzer123  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:00:02am

Here are two quotations from Thomas Jefferson's 1787 "Tree of liberty" letter to William Smith, that deal with effects of lies on society. Both seem relevant to the current discussion.

"Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying."

and

"The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. "

Both quotes concern the effects of wide-spread British lies about anarchy in post-revolutionary America.
Here is a link to the letter [Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

19 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:01:41am

re: #16 austin_blue

So someone phrasing a line in a proposed bill as a "death panel' to try to scare (literally) support against the bill is worse that promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?
Perhaps if the bill DID get that full public display the "death panel" comment would have been laughed at immediatly instead of taking root

20 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:03:26am

re: #13 Cineaste

FTFY

*sigh*

Since when is the desire to improve health care evil? Even if one side is getting the methodology wrong, the intent is decent.

I don't see evil in the desire to improve health care. Not even slightly.

21 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:03:29am

re: #19 sattv4u2

So someone phrasing a line in a proposed bill as a "death panel' to try to scare (literally) support against the bill is worse that promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?

Yes, it's much worse.

22 armylaw  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:03:55am

re: #19 sattv4u2

So someone phrasing a line in a proposed bill as a "death panel' to try to scare (literally) support against the bill is worse that promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?
Perhaps if the bill DID get that full public display the "death panel" comment would have been laughed at immediatly instead of taking root

Every bill Congress votes for is posted on the Library of Congress website.

23 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:04:31am

Anyone can get a copy of the proposed bill and read it. Nobody's hiding anything from you.

24 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:04:58am

Brittany Murphy dead of heart attack at age 32.

WHO?

Yeah, that's what I said.

25 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:05:36am

re: #13 Cineaste

FTFY

*sigh*

Since when is the desire to improve health care evil? Even if one side is getting the methodology wrong, the intent is decent.

Because anything, anything that might have a chance of working and make President Obama and the Dems look good and help the country has to be beaten back by any means necessary.

26 Girth  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:05:43am

re: #19 sattv4u2

So someone phrasing a line in a proposed bill as a "death panel' to try to scare (literally) support against the bill is worse that promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?
Perhaps if the bill DID get that full public display the "death panel" comment would have been laughed at immediatly instead of taking root

I updinged you there because I agree with where you're coming from, but don't for a second think that full public display would have stopped these people from making and spreading the death panel nonsense. And the same people would have believed it with or without it actually being there.

27 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:06:04am

re: #22 armylaw

Every bill Congress votes for is posted on the Library of Congress website.

there is no 'bill" re: health care as of yet, so the public airing, as promised, about the debate was not met

, re: #21 Charles


Okay

28 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #22 armylaw

Every bill Congress votes for is posted on the Library of Congress website.

Just ask our friend THOMAS for a copy, simple as that!

29 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:07:13am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

me too. She followed up with a dishonest essay on Presidential death threats at protests and I knew it was all over.

zombie repeatedly obfuscated with the VB issue. That's when I knew.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #24 SteveC

Brittany Murphy dead of heart attack at age 32.

WHO?

Yeah, that's what I said.

Not a shocka... she always looked frail and ready to drop at any moment.

31 austin_blue  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:07:43am

re: #19 sattv4u2

So someone phrasing a line in a proposed bill as a "death panel' to try to scare (literally) support against the bill is worse that promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?
Perhaps if the bill DID get that full public display the "death panel" comment would have been laughed at immediatly instead of taking root

Health reform has been given a more complete airing than any single piece of legislation I can remember. Good God, it's not as if the Bill passed out of the House is in any way going to look like the Bill that will be delivered to the President's desk. The final legislation still has to go through the joint House/Senate resolution process.

32 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:07:51am

re: #26 Girth

I updinged you there because I agree with where you're coming from, but don't for a second think that full public display would have stopped these people from making and spreading the death panel nonsense. And the same people would have believed it with or without it actually being there.

I agree that people would still be spreading the nonsense, I just beleive it would have had a much harder time being widespread

33 armylaw  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:08:52am

re: #32 sattv4u2

That is certainly a tactical error - the Democrats should never have let Republican talking points define the debate.

34 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:09:25am

re: #27 sattv4u2

You now sound like DI - when show a transitional fossil they propose two more gaps.

I put a version of the bill under debate on my site before Sarah's "death panel" post and was met with "There's no real bill!" but there were several versions, and they were public. You can't have it both ways, either there's a bill under debate, or there's no bill. Hanging your arguments against on semantics is silly.

35 MandyManners  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:09:36am

What about Pelosi's lie that Pres. Bush's administration never briefed her about harsh interrogation techniques? She gets a pass?

36 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:10:11am

Senate Bill
[Link: democrats.senate.gov...]

Managers Amendments
[Link: democrats.senate.gov...]

Of course this is not the final bill....

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:10:48am

re: #31 austin_blue

My next door neighbor is super lib. We were leaning on our shovel handles yesterday (snow) and chatting. He said he's not planning on voting next year. Is very dis-satisfied with the current version of the bill. "Nothing at all like we worked our asses off for." he said.

He also said, "What does a man need with 200 million dollars anyway" in confiscatory tax lingo.

I love the guy, but, geez.

38 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:11:05am

re: #29 Sharmuta

zombie repeatedly obfuscated with the VB issue. That's when I knew.

That was last year wasn't it..I recall you expressing concerns privately...

39 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:11:07am

Thank you for this link as I've never even seen this site before. Been checking it out for the last 20 minutes or so. I dig.

40 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:11:31am

re: #26 Girth

I updinged you there because I agree with where you're coming from, but don't for a second think that full public display would have stopped these people from making and spreading the death panel nonsense. And the same people would have believed it with or without it actually being there.

How does the saying go? A lie can be half way around the world while the truth is still getting it's shoes on? We're in the Information Age, and that means Lies can be spread quicker and to a wider audience. You couple this with people's desire to read propaganda that confirms their pre-existing worldview, and you see what we get- Death Panel lies going mainstream.

41 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:11:54am

re: #35 MandyManners

What about Pelosi's lie that Pres. Bush's administration never briefed her about harsh interrogation techniques? She gets a pass?

She's the Principal in that school of thought, she wrote the pass!

42 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:11:56am

re: #34 Thanos

I was responding specicly about the "every BILL is posted on the Library of Congress websile", and even so the "promise" that this would be on C Span WAS broken

No semantics at all!

43 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:12:16am

re: #36 webevintage

see 42

44 borgcube  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:12:24am

re: #6 Semper Fi

Sometimes I think the entire right wing objection to health care boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure.

Objection to health care? Yeah, don't forget clean water and air in there too. Maybe the objection has nothing to do with Obama but has to do with the belief (and a well founded one based on almost every government track record in this regard) that even more government intervention, regulation, and wealth transfer in health care will end up making the situation even worse?

In that case, guilty as charged. I hope Obama fails big time with this new health care bureaucracy. But I really don't have to hope, it will fail by default. Fait accompli.

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:13:06am

re: #35 MandyManners

That isn't allowed to be brought up anymore. Red herring...all that.

46 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:13:13am

re: #42 sattv4u2

Ok so a technicality instead

47 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:14:59am

re: #46 Thanos

Ok so a technicality instead

No, it's what the thread is about (lies), and what my post was about

48 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:15:22am

re: #42 sattv4u2

I was responding specicly about the "every BILL is posted on the Library of Congress websile", and even so the "promise" that this would be on C Span WAS broken

No semantics at all!

Also you seem to be under the assumption that the bill has been passed and signed already or something...

promising the bill will get a full public airing AND not be signed for almost a week after?

49 simoom  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:16:03am

Speaking of "of the Year"-type stories, WaPo will reveal their "Most Influential Person of the Decade" tomorrow.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Which of these nominees had the greatest influence in shaping the past decade, either by changing how we live or by making the greatest impact on our culture?

Looks like it's come down to President George W. Bush or Osama bin Laden (who beat out President Obama in the previous round).

I understand some of the nominees in thee initial bracket, but others like J.K. Rowling, Lance Armstrong and Jon Stewart were really out of place.

50 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:16:49am

re: #48 Thanos

Also you seem to be under the assumption that the bill has been passed and signed already or something...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Also, I don't

51 Cineaste  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:17:14am

re: #20 Semper Fi

I don't see evil in the desire to improve health care. Not even slightly.

I wasn't implying you saw it that way. Sorry for any confusion.

52 avanti  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:17:23am

In the real world, statistics show that a big percentage of heath care goes to extend life days or weeks in the terminally ill. Many times those days are spent in the hospital hooked up to machines. It's the reason I supported voluntary end of life counseling. I've written down my wishes in the event I would need it and I choose hospice care at home over extraordinary efforts to keep me alive a few days longer in intensive care.
Heath insurers already make those kinds of decisions every day.As medical science advances, it'll be possible to keep you alive on a machine well beyond when you had any real quality of life left. I'd rather die in comfort at home a little earlier, than in pain, hooked up to a machine.

53 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:17:33am

re: #49 simoom

Speaking of "of the Year"-type stories, WaPo will reveal their "Most Influential Person of the Decade" tomorrow.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Looks like it's come down to President George W. Bush or Osama bin Laden (who beat out President Obama in the previous round).

I understand some of the nominees in thee initial bracket, but others like J.K. Rowling, Lance Armstrong and Jon Stewart were really out of place.

What? No Katie Couric?
/

54 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:18:44am

re: #50 sattv4u2

I can't really follow you. What hasn't gotten a public airing, according to you? And how is it a lie or a broken promise?

55 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:18:52am

Oh I get it you are just raising another right wing talking point to change the focus from Sarah's lie then. Lizards would never see through that tactic.

56 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:18:56am

re: #48 Thanos

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"

"Allow five days of public comment before signing bills"

Two different lines
Two different promises

57 austin_blue  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:19:21am

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My next door neighbor is super lib. We were leaning on our shovel handles yesterday (snow) and chatting. He said he's not planning on voting next year. Is very dis-satisfied with the current version of the bill. "Nothing at all like we worked our asses off for." he said.

He also said, "What does a man need with 200 million dollars anyway" in confiscatory tax lingo.

I love the guy, but, geez.

The top tax rate under Eisenhower was 90%. It was 70% from 1965 to 1980. Somehow, the Republic survived and flourished.

Now it's 35% and we find ourselves trillions in debt. Anyone who thinks this is a Republican or a Democrat problem is missing the point.

58 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:19:29am

re: #56 sattv4u2

And Sarah Lied.

59 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #54 Obdicut

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"

60 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:20:24am

re: #58 Thanos

And Sarah Lied.


Yes she did, as per my #19

61 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:20:37am

re: #59 sattv4u2

I saw some of the debate on CSPAN, where were you?

62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:20:51am

re: #57 austin_blue

You don't find that confiscatory? Or you don't have a problem with confiscatory taxation?

63 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #42 sattv4u2

I was responding specicly about the "every BILL is posted on the Library of Congress websile", and even so the "promise" that this would be on C Span WAS broken

So is that Congresses fault or the White House?
There have been many meetings at the WH on C-SPAN (I remember watching them earlier this year) but how does one get Congress to let cameras into every single meeting they have?
Can the President make them?

64 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:21:50am

Oh I get it you want them to now televise the cloakroom conversations on CSPAN or something...

65 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #49 simoom

Oh- I will totally stand up for Rowling's inclusion. She's gotten an entire generation of kids interested in reading and in books. Who else has ever, ever gotten kids to stand in line at midnight to buy a book? God bless her.

Not only that, her female characters are all strong, independent, intelligent women, and I think the influence this might have on both boys and girls in terms of feminist principles could be very interesting. I hope that Rowling, Hermione and Ginny all have a positive impact on how young men view women, and how young women view themselves. I think Rowling might have a much deeper impact on our culture than she could have ever possibly imagined.

66 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:22:08am

re: #61 Thanos

I saw some of the debate on CSPAN, where were you?

You saw the negotiations, or one congressperson at a time coming to the podium for his/her 5 minutes?

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"

67 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:22:38am

re: #64 Thanos

Oh I get it you want them to now televise the cloakroom conversations on CSPAN or something...

Where do you think I got the quote from?

68 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:22:41am

re: #24 SteveC

Brittany Murphy dead of heart attack at age 32.

WHO?

Yeah, that's what I said.

Eating disorders can cause cardiac abnormality.

69 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:22:48am

re: #44 borgcube

Objection to health care? Yeah, don't forget clean water and air in there too. Maybe the objection has nothing to do with Obama but has to do with the belief (and a well founded one based on almost every government track record in this regard) that even more government intervention, regulation, and wealth transfer in health care will end up making the situation even worse?

In that case, guilty as charged. I hope Obama fails big time with this new health care bureaucracy. But I really don't have to hope, it will fail by default. Fait accompli.

I really don't want Gov controlled health care but it's looking like this sad event may occur. But my objection has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with Gov control.

70 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:22:52am

re: #65 Sharmuta

Oh- I will totally stand up for Rowling's inclusion. She's gotten an entire generation of kids interested in reading and in books. Who else has ever, ever gotten kids to stand in line at midnight to buy a book? God bless her.

Not only that, her female characters are all strong, independent, intelligent women, and I think the influence this might have on both boys and girls in terms of feminist principles could be very interesting. I hope that Rowling, Hermione and Ginny all have a positive impact on how young men view women, and how young women view themselves. I think Rowling might have a much deeper impact on our culture than she could have ever possibly imagined.

I was going to say something similar, I grew up reading Tom Swift, and it helped me try to be one of the good guys.

71 borgcube  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:23:38am

re: #57 austin_blue

The top tax rate under Eisenhower was 90%. It was 70% from 1965 to 1980. Somehow, the Republic survived and flourished.

Now it's 35% and we find ourselves trillions in debt. Anyone who thinks this is a Republican or a Democrat problem is missing the point.

There were so many loopholes then that the actual rates were even lower than 35%. No one really paid 90%.

And there wasn't the massive out of control welfare spending then either, nor was there the real problem permeating our wussie society today, the entitlement mentality.

You aren't seriously advocating a 90% tax rate are you? Good fucking grief.

72 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:24:02am

re: #52 avanti

I'd rather die in comfort at home a little earlier, than in pain, hooked up to a machine.

That is a tad simplistic isn't it? When my mom died of cancer she passed in hospice.. My dad simply could not take care of her properly at home and a nurse visiting once a day wasn't going to help that much...
Thank God for the Counseling the family receives from heath care professionals.

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:24:37am

re: #70 Thanos

How old are you?

74 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:24:38am

re: #59 sattv4u2

Okay. Got it-- an Obama promise during the campaign, a dumb promise that he couldn't deliver on without the consent of others.

You really feel that that's a worse 'lie'-- though I'd call it a broken promise rather than a lie-- than Palin's lie?

75 borgcube  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:24:59am

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You don't find that confiscatory? Or you don't have a problem with confiscatory taxation?

He doesn't give a shit since he's not going to be the one paying it most likely. Gimme gimme gimme. Welcome to Wussie America 2009.

76 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:25:07am

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How old are you?

Why do you ask?

77 borgcube  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:25:40am

re: #69 Semper Fi

I really don't want Gov controlled health care but it's looking like this sad event may occur. But my objection has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with Gov control.

Agree 100%.

78 austin_blue  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:02am

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You don't find that confiscatory? Or you don't have a problem with confiscatory taxation?

I have a problem with the fact that we simply cannot pay for government with our present tax structure, let alone two wars. Raise marginal tax rates, pay off debt, and then ease back on the throttle until we find a balance that works.

Because what we are doing now isn't working.

79 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:04am

re: #74 Obdicut

Okay. Got it-- an Obama promise during the campaign, a dumb promise that he couldn't deliver on without the consent of others.

You really feel that that's a worse 'lie'-- though I'd call it a broken promise rather than a lie-- than Palin's lie?

I'm getting the "lie" from the same wbsite thats being touted as the subject of this very thread, so ,,, yes!

80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #76 Thanos

Swift's a bit old school. Was just joshin' tho.

81 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:18am

re: #52 avanti

In the real world, statistics show that a big percentage of heath care goes to extend life days or weeks in the terminally ill. Many times those days are spent in the hospital hooked up to machines. It's the reason I supported voluntary end of life counseling. I've written down my wishes in the event I would need it and I choose hospice care at home over extraordinary efforts to keep me alive a few days longer in intensive care... As medical science advances, it'll be possible to keep you alive on a machine well beyond when you had any real quality of life left. I'd rather die in comfort at home a little earlier, than in pain, hooked up to a machine.

Very much so - anyone who knows my story knows that I am terminally ill. I had to have emergency heart surgery at 5 months of age; and at that time the Cardiologist told my parents that I had hours to live. Everything beyond that has been due to good doctors and advances in medical care.

Thankfully, my QOL is not only acceptable, it is exceptional! But like you I have the correct paperwork on file... just in case.

82 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:21am

re: #71 borgcube

Can you actually show any figures for the after-tax income of the top brackets from back then, that substantiate a claim that tax write-offs brought the real taxes paid down to close the rate that we have now?

83 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:21am

re: #24 SteveC

Brittany Murphy dead of heart attack at age 32.

WHO?

Yeah, that's what I said.

Oh No! I really thought she was a great actress..That is so sad..
A beautiful young lady

84 Sharmuta  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:22am

re: #70 Thanos

I was going to say something similar, I grew up reading Tom Swift, and it helped me try to be one of the good guys.

I should also include Mrs. Weasely and the Witch Professors at Hogwarts- the vast majority of the female characters in the Potter books are strong willed, independent types and I do think this will have a positive impact for feminism.

85 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:26:39am

Here you can see Sarah prevaricating on the 15th and backing off from it two days later.

[Link: 74.125.95.132...]

86 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:27:01am
87 borgcube  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:27:07am

re: #82 Obdicut

Can you actually show any figures for the after-tax income of the top brackets from back then, that substantiate a claim that tax write-offs brought the real taxes paid down to close the rate that we have now?

No. I just make shit up.

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:27:14am

re: #78 austin_blue

I have a problem with the fact that we simply cannot pay for government with our present tax structure, let alone two wars. Raise marginal tax rates, pay off debt, and then ease back on the throttle until we find a balance that works.

Because what we are doing now isn't working.

I don't think we can pay for Government with our current rate of spending, let alone two wars.

So... we kinda agree.

89 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:27:52am

re: #79 sattv4u2

Can you explain why you feel it's a worse lie? I think it was a dumb promise-- but why on earth would you feel it's a worse lie?

90 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:28:11am

re: #80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Swift's a bit old school. Was just joshin' tho.

Ahh. Too old to sleep through the night without getting up to pee, too young to not enjoy truly new music.

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:28:37am

re: #87 borgcube

No. I just make shit up.

Just showed this to my wife. She now thinks that I am you.

92 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:29:14am

re: #87 borgcube

I'm genuinely interested. I've seen that cited often, but never with any actual evidence. I'm assuming that it's true, and that there is evidence for it out there, but I'd like to verify it.

Can you actually provide me with that evidence? Or are you repeating the claim because it came from someone you trust, and could point me in their direction?

93 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #89 Obdicut

Can you explain why you feel it's a worse lie? I think it was a dumb promise-- but why on earth would you feel it's a worse lie?

Sorry ,, didn't mean to end there

Not a 'worse" lie, meant to respond to your though I'd call it a broken promise rather than a lie-- with "so yes, I'd call it a lie"

94 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:30:20am

re: #35 MandyManners

What about Pelosi's lie that Pres. Bush's administration never briefed her about harsh interrogation techniques? She gets a pass?

Well the link on politifact says it's true that she wasn't briefed about waterboarding but that other members of congress were briefed.

[Link: www.politifact.com...]

Although Goss says waterboarding was part of the discussion, there's nothing in the CIA timeline that states it was specifically discussed in the briefing Pelosi attended. So if we stick strictly to public documents released so far, there's no conclusive evidence that Pelosi was briefed on waterboarding. However, waterboarding was specifically mentioned elsewhere in the timeline for briefings for other members of the intelligence committee who presumably would be covered by her reference to "we."

95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:31:43am

Just cubed some yams... baked the shit out of them... cinnamon, butter, marshmallows.

Goood eatin'.

96 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:31:46am

Maybe the Whips should run around with helmet cams so we can see all of the negotiations ahead of the votes, which is where the real push and shove & hardball negotiation comes - it's all just talk til then.

97 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:31:50am

re: #90 Thanos

Ahh. Too old to sleep through the night without getting up to pee, too young to not enjoy truly new music.

You'll feel much better if you cruise through the 'hood playing 50 cent at full blast with the windows down...
Just do it once.. You'll smile all day

98 Haole  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:31:56am

Some quotes from Hopenhagen....
Lumumba Di-Aping, chief negotiator for the G77 group of 130 developing countries, said the deal had "the lowest level of ambition you can imagine. It's nothing short of climate change scepticism in action. It locks countries into a cycle of poverty for ever. Obama has eliminated any difference between him and Bush."

John Sauven, executive director of Greenpeace UK, said: "The city of Copenhagen is a crime scene tonight, with the guilty men and women fleeing to the airport. Ed Miliband [UK climate change secretary] is among the very few that come out of this summit with any credit." It is now evident that beating global warming will require a radically different model of politics than the one on display here in Copenhagen."

Lydia Baker of Save the Children said world leaders had "effectively signed a death warrant for many of the world's poorest children. Up to 250,000 children from poor communities could die before the next major meeting in Mexico at the end of next year."

Good solid B+

99 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:32:05am

the sanctimonious Dr Laura gets pwned ...

[Link: www.magic-city-news.com...]

100 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:32:49am

re: #93 sattv4u2

Okay. I'm not sure i understand that, given that PolitiFact clearly calls that a promise and not a lie-- you'll notice all eight of the candidates for lie of the year are statements, not promises.

But anyway, granting that it is a lie, why do you feel it's a worse lie?

101 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:33:51am

re: #100 Obdicut

Okay. I'm not sure i understand that, given that PolitiFact clearly calls that a promise and not a lie-- you'll notice all eight of the candidates for lie of the year are statements, not promises.

But anyway, granting that it is a lie, why do you feel it's a worse lie?

see #93

102 avanti  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:34:29am

re: #72 HoosierHoops

I'd rather die in comfort at home a little earlier, than in pain, hooked up to a machine.

That is a tad simplistic isn't it? When my mom died of cancer she passed in hospice.. My dad simply could not take care of her properly at home and a nurse visiting once a day wasn't going to help that much...
Thank God for the Counseling the family receives from heath care professionals.

I agree, it is, and God bless the hospice workers. Here's the 60 minutes story on the issue, and it's a eye opener. End of life care was once a bipartisan issue, but the far right messed that up.

60 minutes.

103 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #97 HoosierHoops

You'll feel much better if you cruise through the 'hood playing 50 cent at full blast with the windows down...
Just do it once.. You'll smile all day

I did that with RHCP just yesterday.

104 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:34:51am

re: #93 sattv4u2

Sorry ,, didn't mean to end there

Not a 'worse" lie, meant to respond to your though I'd call it a broken promise rather than a lie-- with "so yes, I'd call it a lie"

You can only call a broken promise a lie if the person knew his promise was a lie, at the time, and was intentionally trying to deceive.

105 maxwellp  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:35:09am

For political lie of the year, I would have to put the Prince of Wales on the list for this doozy.

“The grim reality is that our planet has reached a point of crisis and we have only seven years before we lose the levers of control.”

106 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:35:45am

re: #101 sattv4u2

Okay. Why do you feel it's another candidate for lie of the year? Give me something, man, I just can't understand why that promise seems like a candidate, during this year, for 'lie of the year'.

107 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #104 Locker

You can only call a broken promise a lie if the person knew his promise was a lie, at the time, and was intentionally trying to deceive.

I'd think you could call it a promise half-way realized since many of the meetings at the White House have been broadcast on C-SPAN this year, meetings that the public would not have any access too.

108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #102 avanti

I'm hoping that my "end of life" care includes a metro bus (or train) and a 60 mph speed.

109 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:36:56am

re: #104 Locker

You can only call a broken promise a lie if the person knew his promise was a lie, at the time, and was intentionally trying to deceive.

I think Palin 'lied" about death panels, but I have no proof that she didn't beleive there would be, SO ,,, was she intentionally trying to decieve? By your own standard, if she BELEIVES there would be death panels, then no lie!

110 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:38:45am

re: #109 sattv4u2

I think Palin 'lied" about death panels, but I have no proof that she didn't beleive there would be, SO ,,, was she intentionally trying to decieve? By your own standard, if she BELEIVES there would be death panels, then no lie!

If she does believe that children with downs will be taken before Death Panels in the US doesn't that make her either insane or a liar? So which are you picking?

111 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:38:49am

re: #107 webevintage

I'd think you could call it a promise half-way realized since many of the meetings at the White House have been broadcast on C-SPAN this year, meetings that the public would not have any access too.

Hehe I wasn't speaking of any specific promise, just in general.

If I promise my wife that I'll pick up milk on the way home and I forget to do it, or get in an accident, or stay late at work that doesn't make me a liar. It just means I broke my promise.

If I promise my wife that I won't look at any other women at work today, then I'm a liar.

112 freetoken  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:12am

re: #98 Haole

Good solid B+

How sardonic of you.

Lumumba said far worse things than you listed. His comparison of the COP15 with the Holocaust brought heated condemnation from quite a few countries. His direct allegation, to the face of the Danish PM, that the president of the COP was cynically manipulating the COP brought forward more condemnations.

The only leader to make a stink about the protesters being abused was .... Hugo. Oh, and Monckton chimed in with agreement, apparently. Chavez and Monckton on the same page... savor the irony.

113 Girth  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:12am

re: #109 sattv4u2

I think Palin 'lied" about death panels, but I have no proof that she didn't beleive there would be, SO ,,, was she intentionally trying to decieve? By your own standard, if she BELEIVES there would be death panels, then no lie!

You're conflating promises with statements of fact.

114 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:15am

Thank you Sarah for ruining potential discourse on a legitimate issue.

Is seems that many abhor outlandish exaggerations or statements against their issue, but don't seemed concerned when equally outlandish rhetoric is posited for their issue.

115 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:38am

Of course you can't rule out "insane liar" either...

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:48am

re: #106 Obdicut

Okay. Why do you feel it's another candidate for lie of the year? Give me something, man, I just can't understand why that promise seems like a candidate, during this year, for 'lie of the year'.

Well, actually, I think it was uttered last year (2008) during campaigning, so it doesn'rt qualify for this year (technically)

My point was, and still is as per my #12, these lies are not linited to the right, as per Austins list in #7 was

117 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:39:49am

re: #108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm hoping that my "end of life" care includes a metro bus (or train) and a 60 mph speed.

George Washington had a very long and painful death...His last words were,
I Die hard..
That's the way I wanna go..I'll fight the angel of death till the end

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:40:47am

re: #113 Girth

You're conflating promises with statements of fact.

I was responding to #7.

119 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #6 Semper Fi

Sometimes I think the entire right wing objection to health care boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure.


No I don't agree with that. But unfortunately it is the loony toones who get all the press.

120 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #110 Thanos

If she does believe that children with downs will be taken before Death Panels in the US doesn't that make her either insane or a liar? So which are you picking?

I don't know what she beleives, and I'm not a clinical psychiatrist, so I'll choose (C), just plane wrong

((funny how that wasn't an option!!))

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:21am

re: #117 HoosierHoops

You go ahead. I'll see you at the pearly gates with treadmarks across my ass and say, "Whaddup Hoops! What took you so long!"

122 avanti  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:23am

re: #108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm hoping that my "end of life" care includes a metro bus (or train) and a 60 mph speed.

I want to go like my dad. At 88 years old, he'd never sat foot in the hospital, when to sleep one night and did not wake up. Of course, he was a old Greek and ate much better than me. A meal for him was a piece of fruit, some feta cheese and bread, with the occasional serving of lamb or lemon soup.

123 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:25am

re: #99 _RememberTonyC

the sanctimonious Dr Laura gets pwned ...

[Link: www.magic-city-news.com...]

.... in 2004. (or possibly 2000, according to Snopes.com)

124 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:42am

Qualia Soup has a new vid out:

125 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:43:55am

re: #110 Thanos

If she does believe that children with downs will be taken before Death Panels in the US doesn't that make her either insane or a liar? So which are you picking?

The answer to that question is she's being a demagogue.

126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:44:25am

re: #122 avanti

Well, yeah. There is that.

127 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:44:32am

re: #117 HoosierHoops

George Washington had a very long and painful death...His last words were,
I Die hard..
That's the way I wanna go..I'll fight the angel of death till the end

My grandpa died peacefully, in his sleep. Not screaming in fear, like his passengers.

128 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:44:40am

re: #120 sattv4u2

I don't know what she beleives, and I'm not a clinical psychiatrist, so I'll choose (C), just plane plain wrong

((funny how that wasn't an option!!))

pimf

129 Girth  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:45:13am

OT:

The new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie looks like it might be the worst kids movie ever.

130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:45:45am

re: #127 SteveC

Dang! I didn't think of that!

131 lostlakehiker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:45:50am

In France, a few years back during a heat wave, on the order of ten thousand seniors in French nursing homes died. There were no death panels and there was no decision to kill them. But neither was there any real effort to save them.

Wet sheets and desk fans would have done the trick. But staff was short because it was the August vacation.

Staff could have been recalled, but why would France do that? It would have cost money twice over. First, for overtime and comp time. Second, because those who died would have instead lived on, costing the State for every year they lived on.

Decisions taken without writing anything down or committing any criminal offense, and without any explicit policy, are still decisions. The road forks, and one thing or another is done. Doing nothing is still a decision.

What happened in France is not so much an indictment of French national character as it is a mirror into the soul of State bureaucracies everywhere. They are soulless. They do what is natural to a bureaucracy. They count the cost, and the only costs that count are monetary.

To the extent that we put health care into the hands of the federal government, an entity that is answerable to everyone in theory and to no one in practice, to that extent we write for ourselves chapters such as this incident now written into French history.

132 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:46:02am

re: #129 Girth

OT:

The new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie looks like it might be the worst kids movie ever.

Obviously, you never had to sit through a POKEMAN movie

133 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:46:05am

re: #129 Girth

OT:

The new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie looks like it might be the worst kids movie ever.

Don't give up hope. They haven't stopped making movies yet!

//

134 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:46:31am

re: #12 sattv4u2

It's not limited to the right

"Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN"
"Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials"
"Allow five days of public comment before signing bills"

Don't forget Obama saying on the campaign trail he would go through the budget line by line to find excess spending.

And my all time Obama lie. "We aren't red states or blue states but America!" In effect promising he would bring us together.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:47:05am

re: #129 Girth

OT:

The new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie looks like it might be the worst kids movie ever.

It will have a very difficult time unseating the old "Alvin and the Chipmunks" movie.

136 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:47:08am

re: #129 Girth

re: #132 sattv4u2

Obviously, you never had to sit through a POKEMANMON movie

pimf ,, AGAIN

137 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:48:13am

re: #122 avanti

I want to go like my dad. At 88 years old, he'd never sat foot in the hospital, when to sleep one night and did not wake up. Of course, he was a old Greek and ate much better than me. A meal for him was a piece of fruit, some feta cheese and bread, with the occasional serving of lamb or lemon soup.

God bless your father.. Everybody wants to die easy because of the fear of death..
I want to face it head on, eyes wide open and with courage..
pain is just weakness leaving the body.

138 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:48:22am

re: #123 SteveC

... in 2004. (or possibly 2000, according to Snopes.com)


whatever ... dsoesn't matter to me. but it is funny when those who thump the bible when it suits their arguments are asked to justify some of the "other stuff" that is in there.

139 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:48:30am

re: #109 sattv4u2

I think Palin 'lied" about death panels, but I have no proof that she didn't beleive there would be, SO ,,, was she intentionally trying to decieve? By your own standard, if she BELEIVES there would be death panels, then no lie!

My standards are not the same for lie vs promise. You can't apply one to the other.

Making a statement of "fact" out of thin air, with no reason to believe it's true and no evidence to support your statement can't be dismissed with "she believed it" or "I didn't know it wasn't true". It's a deliberate attempt to disguise opinion as fact, in the best case. In the worst case it's a deliberate attempt to pass false information.

On the other hand if someone makes a promise to do something which seems doable and then is later unable to do it doesn't make it a lie by default. It's only a lie if the person was attempting to deceive when they made the statement.

You can tell the difference right?

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:48:33am

re: #132 sattv4u2

Obviously, you never had to sit through a POKEMAN movie

cue the porn music

"BROWN CHICKEN BROWN COW"

141 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:49:17am

re: #132 sattv4u2

Obviously, you never had to sit through a POKEMAN movie

re: #136 sattv4u2

POKEMANMON

re: #132 sattv4u2

pimf ,, AGAIN

Obviously not a fan! :)

142 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:49:23am

re: #140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

cue the porn music

"BROWN CHICKEN BROWN COW"

Bad, FBV, bad! :P
/

143 Girth  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:49:35am

I just want to know what the hell happened to Jason Lee and David Cross. They used to be cool.

144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:49:48am

re: #137 HoosierHoops

There is something to be said for having the opportunity to say "Goodbye" to loved ones.

145 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:50:12am

re: #139 Locker

My standards are not the same for lie vs promise. You can't apply one to the other.

Making a statement of "fact" out of thin air, with no reason to believe it's true and no evidence to support your statement can't be dismissed with "she believed it" or "I didn't know it wasn't true". It's a deliberate attempt to disguise opinion as fact, in the best case. In the worst case it's a deliberate attempt to pass false information.

On the other hand if someone makes a promise to do something which seems doable and then is later unable to do it doesn't make it a lie by default. It's only a lie if the person was attempting to deceive when they made the statement.

You can tell the difference right?

And you were doing so well until you just HAD to throw a little shot in at the end!

{sigh}

146 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:50:23am

re: #109 sattv4u2

I think Palin 'lied" about death panels, but I have no proof that she didn't beleive there would be, SO ,,, was she intentionally trying to decieve? By your own standard, if she BELEIVES there would be death panels, then no lie!

Sometimes I just can't believe the rationalizations people come up with to make excuses for Sarah Palin.

She absolutely knew she was not telling the truth. The statement is utterly absurd on its face, and no sane person could possibly have believed the US government was going to set up "death panels."

It was pure fear-mongering BS, pandering to the most extreme element of the right wing base -- and Palin used her own child to do it, in one of the most blatantly cynical political maneuvers I've ever seen.

147 Locker  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:50:43am

re: #145 sattv4u2

I'm not the one being deliberately obtuse just to have an argument. Don't bitch about it cause you got called on it. Suck it up.

148 Fortitudine  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:50:58am

re: #6 Semper Fi

Sometimes I think the entire right wing objection to health care boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure.

The entire right wing objection to everything pretty much boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure. Actually, I shouldn't say that; it's the looney right that's responsible for this, not moderates. I have to keep reminding myself.

149 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:51:32am

re: #141 SteveC

Obviously not a fan! :)

It's been a number of years, but when the movies 1st came out thats ALL my son wanted

Cards, board game, new release movies, buying them as soon as they came out on DVD

150 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:51:57am

re: #35 MandyManners

What about Pelosi's lie that Pres. Bush's administration never briefed her about harsh interrogation techniques? She gets a pass?


Well you see Mandy she is a Demo and this year is not a Republican year............

151 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #147 Locker

I'm not the one being deliberately obtuse just to have an argument. Don't bitch about it cause you got called on it. Suck it up.

I obviously have, by not resonding in kind!

152 webevintage  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:53:54am

re: #150 Blueheron

Well you see Mandy she is a Demo and this year is not a Republican year...

Except it was not a lie.

153 avanti  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:54:06am

re: #137 HoosierHoops

God bless your father.. Everybody wants to die easy because of the fear of death..
I want to face it head on, eyes wide open and with courage..
pain is just weakness leaving the body.

That's why each person needs to express their own wishes. For me, if I'm days away from death, give me some good drugs, I'll pass on the pain. Don't hook me up to a bunch of machines to keep me going, especially if I'm unconscious and without hope.

154 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:55:13am

re: #146 Charles

My 1st four words of 109 was I think Palin 'lied"

155 recusancy  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #57 austin_blue

The top tax rate under Eisenhower was 90%. It was 70% from 1965 to 1980. Somehow, the Republic survived and flourished.

Now it's 35% and we find ourselves trillions in debt. Anyone who thinks this is a Republican or a Democrat problem is missing the point.

Top Tax Rates 1920 to Present

156 avanti  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:56:31am

re: #144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There is something to be said for having the opportunity to say "Goodbye" to loved ones.

My wife's mother choose Hospice care and died peacefully at home with the family nearby, and yes, she had the morphine drip keeping her comfortable in the last days. That was her choice, others can disagree.

157 Girth  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:57:25am

re: #146 Charles

Sometimes I just can't believe the rationalizations people come up with to make excuses for Sarah Palin.

She absolutely knew she was not telling the truth. The statement is utterly absurd on its face, and no sane person could possibly have believed the US government was going to set up "death panels."

It was absolutely pure fear-mongering BS, pandering to the most extreme element of the right wing base -- and Palin used her own child to do it, in one of the most blatantly cynical political maneuvers I've ever seen.

The only other possibility is that she believes she is telling the truth, which is at least as scary if not more so in its implications.

158 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:58:44am

re: #52 avanti

In the real world, statistics show that a big percentage of heath care goes to extend life days or weeks in the terminally ill. Many times those days are spent in the hospital hooked up to machines. It's the reason I supported voluntary end of life counseling. I've written down my wishes in the event I would need it and I choose hospice care at home over extraordinary efforts to keep me alive a few days longer in intensive care.
Heath insurers already make those kinds of decisions every day.As medical science advances, it'll be possible to keep you alive on a machine well beyond when you had any real quality of life left. I'd rather die in comfort at home a little earlier, than in pain, hooked up to a machine.


I up dinged you because I understand.
However I had my Mother die in my home and believe me it would have been easier on me and her if she had died in a hospital. So I will pick hospital if I have any say in it.

159 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:00:52pm

re: #63 webevintage

So is that Congresses fault or the White House?
There have been many meetings at the WH on C-SPAN (I remember watching them earlier this year) but how does one get Congress to let cameras into every single meeting they have?
Can the President make them?

Obama knew that so why did he make the promise?

160 SteveC  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:00:55pm

Time's sneaking up on me, I need to leave for a get-together soon. I'm going to have to get my Fruit Cup to go.

Next few days promise to be busy, so if I don't see ya'll before then, have a wonderful holiday!

161 recusancy  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:00:56pm

re: #35 MandyManners

What about Pelosi's lie that Pres. Bush's administration never briefed her about harsh interrogation techniques? She gets a pass?

What proof do you have she lied?

Errors in CIA docs

CIA Admits That Info About Torture Briefings For Dems May Not Be Accurate

162 sagehen  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:01:25pm

re: #71 borgcube

There were so many loopholes then that the actual rates were even lower than 35%. No one really paid 90%.

And there wasn't the massive out of control welfare spending then either, nor was there the real problem permeating our wussie society today, the entitlement mentality.

No, there wasn't massive domestic welfare spending in the 1950's -- there was the Marshall Plan, and the interstate highways, and ramping up of the cold war.

But the reason nobody really paid 90% -- wasn't "loopholes", it was giving the money away. People gave buildings to universities and wings to museums and got their names on them, they built libraries and theatres, they endowed orchestras and scholarships and medical research projects and foundations of every sort. There were a thousand Bill Gateses and Warren Buffets giving it all away.

When tax rates were confiscatory, the wealthy really did spend their money better than the government would. Now, they spend it on 500-ft yachts (built in other countries) and private jets and Aaron Spelling sized houses that they need eight of. I'm not thinking that's much of an improvement.

People conveniently forget that Reagan realized his tax cuts had been too deep and deficits were exploding, he raised them again. When Clinton raised taxes again, it set off the longest peacetime economic expansion in history, 22 million new jobs in 8 years, and balanced the budget. Bush cut taxes to their lowest level in 70 years, and just look at the deficits and unemployment now. Do you see a pattern here?

163 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #119 Blueheron

No I don't agree with that. But unfortunately it is the loony toones who get all the press.

Agreed. Loony is a real attention getter.
I appreciate the importance of words and consider "far right" may have been more descriptive of my feelings than saying "entire right wing".

164 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:03:04pm

re: #158 Blueheron

I up dinged you because I understand.
However I had my Mother die in my home and believe me it would have been easier on me and her if she had died in a hospital. So I will pick hospital if I have any say in it.

My mom died in hospice...Days later I was going through her jewelery box and found a joint...I almost fainted from shock..She couldn't eat and was in great pain
God bless you mom.. You little pot head...

165 sagehen  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:04:53pm

re: #162 sagehen

Also in the 50's -- FHA housing, and millions of college students on the GI Bill. Lots and lots of money there -- but money well spent.

166 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:08:37pm

re: #148 Fortitudine

The entire right wing objection to everything pretty much boils down to Obama hatred and hoping for Obama failure. Actually, I shouldn't say that; it's the looney right that's responsible for this, not moderates. I have to keep reminding myself.

Thank you. Please see my #163.

167 recusancy  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:09:25pm

re: #161 recusancy

What proof do you have she lied?

Errors in CIA docs

CIA Admits That Info About Torture Briefings For Dems May Not Be Accurate

Care to refute that Matrix?

168 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:12:25pm

Time for my afternoon walk. It's overcast with no wind. Just the way I like it.
Later

169 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:13:22pm

re: #55 Thanos

Oh I get it you are just raising another right wing talking point to change the focus from Sarah's lie then. Lizards would never see through that tactic.

I think what we are supposed to take away from the point is the Dems lying or not fulfilling a promise in some way mitigates Palin's lie, so we should not beat her up about it.

Or perhaps its that our hypocrisy in beating Palin about the head and shoulders while ignoring* Dem lies makes Palin's lie less important.

Palin's lie was an attempt at, yes here it comes, terrorism** while the bit about the bill exposure is just politics as usual.

*Not that their lies are being ignored, unless you believe every lie perpetrated by either side has to be mentioned when any one is.
**Hey, tit for tat. Contrary to some thinking (wink, wink, nod, nod), not everything is terrorism.

170 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:15:19pm

re: #146 Charles

Sometimes I just can't believe the rationalizations people come up with to make excuses for Sarah Palin.

She absolutely knew she was not telling the truth. The statement is utterly absurd on its face, and no sane person could possibly have believed the US government was going to set up "death panels."

It was absolutely pure fear-mongering BS, pandering to the most extreme element of the right wing base -- and Palin used her own child to do it, in one of the most blatantly cynical political maneuvers I've ever seen.


Well if she is as dumb as people say she is how are we to suppose she didn't in fact fear gubermint death panels?

171 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:21:48pm

re: #131 lostlakehiker


So right now we're just writing a chapter about a lot of people without insurance not getting care except at the emergency room-- and only getting it there because of government regulation?

172 pharmmajor  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 12:59:08pm

Charles, again I implore you to consider joining us in the Libertarian Party. We do not let liars and scare-mongers dictate our policies (don't let Ron Paul taint your judgment of us).

173 Achilles Tang  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 1:05:48pm

re: #170 Blueheron

Well if she is as dumb as people say she is how are we to suppose she didn't in fact fear gubermint death panels?

Dats gummint in these parts.

Off for dinner at one of my favorite daughters' place, and to check out her guy some more.

Merry Christmas.

174 Vambo  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 1:06:58pm

this woman that I work with was going off on "death panels" last month - I was in shock, before this I had a pretty high opinion of her and I didn't know what to say. I read the section concerning alleged "death panels" and forgot it immediately, it seemed like standard medical practice with new benefits for doctors, written in precise legalese so as to leave no room for interpretation (as everything should, that's why the bill was 200+ pages!!) - big deal, case closed. I guess not. so I mentioned the whole end of life counseling thing and she made some ignorant, hysterical remark that just left me speechless. I was so mad.

175 blueherron  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 1:16:42pm

re: #174 Vambo

this woman that I work with was going off on "death panels" last month - I was in shock, before this I had a pretty high opinion of her and I didn't know what to say. I read the section concerning alleged "death panels" and forgot it immediately, it seemed like standard medical practice with new benefits for doctors, written in precise legalese so as to leave no room for interpretation (as everything should, that's why the bill was 200+ pages!!) - big deal, case closed. I guess not. so I mentioned the whole end of life counseling thing and she made some ignorant, hysterical remark that just left me speechless. I was so mad.

Sounds like you work with my sister, who is an avid fan of Sarah and Glenn Beck. Imagine the fun when we get together.

176 doubter4444  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 1:59:26pm

re: #26 Girth

I up-dinged you there because I agree with where you're coming from, but don't for a second think that full public display would have stopped these people from making and spreading the death panel nonsense. And the same people would have believed it with or without it actually being there.

And I up-dinged you for being straight.
I agree: the "transparency" promised, and not happening, is in some ways worse than a "pants on fire" lie that will fade into the sunset.
But one is a lie, and the other a disappointment.
And the lies give ammo to those how don't want to be transparent, allowing them to claim, rightly that EVERYTHING will be misconstrued, so best keep as much dark as possible to control the message.

177 limewash  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:25:32pm

re: #35 MandyManners

Er no, she said she was mislead and misinformed by the CIA and they admitted it. So I don't believe there was a pass on this.

vs. there's no such thing as a death panel.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

178 limewash  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:30:22pm

re: #24 SteveC

How sad, I really liked her as an address. 8 mile and clueless were the two movies I thought she did very well in.

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:45:43pm

re: #49 simoom

Speaking of "of the Year"-type stories, WaPo will reveal their "Most Influential Person of the Decade" tomorrow.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Looks like it's come down to President George W. Bush or Osama bin Laden (who beat out President Obama in the previous round).

I understand some of the nominees in thee initial bracket, but others like J.K. Rowling, Lance Armstrong and Jon Stewart were really out of place.

JK Rowling is one of the most read authors on earth.

That makes her influential.

John Stewart is the most powerful satirist in America. Also makes him influential!

180 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 2:58:19pm

re: #33 armylaw

That is certainly a tactical error - the Democrats should never have let Republican talking points define the debate.

Obama produced his birth certificate, the governor of Hawai and news paper cuttings but a large number of loons still think he's a foreign interloper.

Some people who are so far F&*ing gone in the head will not be persuaded by a fact very loudly shouted when they have already been persuaded by a lie spread underground.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 3:27:41pm

re: #134 Blueheron

Don't forget Obama saying on the campaign trail he would go through the budget line by line to find excess spending.

And my all time Obama lie. "We aren't red states or blue states but America!" In effect promising he would bring us together.

That last is only a lie if we all make it one.

182 Jaerik  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:59:38pm

If you total 'em up, 91% of the votes went to Republican lies, and about 9% to Democrat. 7.1% of the 9% Democratic ones were Obama's "preventative care saves money," which appears to more be wishful thinking with good intentions than the jaw-dropping bullshit the other 91% represented.

That's pretty hard to believe, unless you're gunna go for the shooting-the-messenger easy-out by claiming PolitiFact and their readers are part of the vast liberal conspiracy.

183 Hector1980  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:19:39pm

Cool, I voted for that one.

In terms of impact, nothing really beats it.

184 ChicagoJohn  Sun, Dec 20, 2009 11:35:33pm
Her assertion — that the government would set up boards to determine whether seniors and the disabled were worthy of care — spread through newscasts, talk shows, blogs and town hall meetings. Opponents of health care legislation said it revealed the real goals of the Democratic proposals.

Only one problem with this. Sarah never said that.
Here is the actual quote, and here is the actual page you can find it on... her facebook blog that started it all.

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Now read the section above, and tell me if you think it was reported accurately.

185 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:43:42am

re: #184 ChicagoJohn

Yes, it was. That's exactly what she's saying.

186 huggy77  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:26:55am

re: #184 ChicagoJohn

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

I don't think there will be a panel that decides whether you live or die... i do think there will be rationing, decisions will have to be made, was she metaphorically speaking of this.

In regards to Obama's numerous broken promisies, he was just throwing out empty promises to get elected... He is a politician, it was an election - it is what happens...

187 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:47:22am

re: #184 ChicagoJohn

Now read the section above, and tell me if you think it was reported accurately.

Yes, the Politifact description of Palin's statement was completely accurate. She said her parents or her "baby with Down Syndrome" would have to stand in front of a death panel to determine whether they deserved health care.

100% accurate.


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