Scott Roeder Can’t Use ‘Necessity’ Defense

US News • Views: 3,127

Scott Roeder, the fanatical anti-abortion “activist” who confessed to murdering Dr. George Tiller in church, will not be allowed to use the ludicrous “necessity defense” in his trial — which is no surprise.

Under a necessity defense, a defendant argues an action was justified because breaking the law was more advantageous to society than following it. Several anti-abortion activists facing criminal charges have attempted to use the defense but none has been successful.

In an Associated Press interview last month, Roeder admitted killing Tiller and said he plans to argue at this trial that the shooting was justified.

“Because of the fact preborn children’s lives were in imminent danger, this was the action I chose,” he said. “… I want to make sure that the focus is, of course, obviously on the preborn children and the necessity to defend them.”

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140 comments
1 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:22:30pm

the only "necessity" in this case is the needle for roeder

2 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:25:54pm

He already confessed, I say let him choose any defense he wants. It will not change anything.

3 sffilk  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:27:32pm

Good.

4 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:28:06pm

May he rot.

5 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:29:13pm

He must know he's toast.

Anything put forward now is attempt to lionize himself to the choir and play up his "hero" status.

6 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:32:30pm
Under a necessity defense, a defendant argues an action was justified because breaking the law was more advantageous to society than following it. Several anti-abortion activists facing criminal charges have attempted to use the defense but none has been successful.

For reference:

In U.S. criminal law, necessity may be either a possible justification or an exculpation for breaking the law. Except for a few statutory exemptions and in some medical cases [1] there is no corresponding defense in English law.[2] Defendants seeking to rely on this defense argue that they should not be held liable for their actions as a crime because their conduct was necessary to prevent some greater harm and when that conduct is not excused under some other more specific provision of law such as self defense.

For example, a drunk driver might contend that he drove his car to get away from a kidnap (cf. North by Northwest). Most common law and civil law jurisdictions recognize this defense, but only under limited circumstances. Generally, the defendant must affirmatively show (i.e., introduce some evidence) that (a) the harm he sought to avoid outweighs the danger of the prohibited conduct he is charged with; (b) he had no reasonable alternative; (c) he ceased to engage in the prohibited conduct as soon as the danger passed; and (d) he did not himself create the danger he sought to avoid. Thus, with the "drunk driver" example cited above, the necessity defense will not be recognized if the defendant drove further than was reasonably necessary to get away from the kidnapper, or if some other reasonable alternative was available to him. However case law suggests necessity is narrowed to medical cases.

Wiki.

7 djughurknot  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:35:01pm

must... not... draw... false... equivalency... with... Iraq... War... pre-emption...

8 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:35:23pm

re: #5 Ben Hur

He must know he's toast.

Anything put forward now is attempt to lionize himself to the choir and play up his "hero" status.

...and to turn the witness box into a political podium from which to spout his propaganda.

9 middy  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:36:47pm

Preborn? Is that some new anti-abortion catchword?

10 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:37:36pm

re: #9 middy

Not so new.

11 Basho  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:37:37pm

"If Roeder were alive during bible times Jesus would have been born. Err... no, wait..." -Chuck Norris

12 djughurknot  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:39:05pm

Ah crap. I fail.

13 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:40:14pm

this is an example of an honest, true zealot...he is not a cliche...he is bordering on insanity

14 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:40:24pm

re: #9 middy

Note that Roeder faces the death penalty for his actions. Which at least potentially makes him one of the predead.

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:40:42pm

re: #7 djughurknot

must... not... draw... false... equivalency... with... Iraq... War... pre-emption...

Just as well you don't, really. I want to talk about Roeder.

16 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:40:50pm

Might be the best news I've heard all day.

17 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:40:57pm

re: #12 djughurknot

Ah crap. I fail.

making sense can be difficult for some people

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:41:18pm

re: #9 middy

Preborn? Is that some new anti-abortion catchword?

Nah, they've been using it for years, maybe decades. Apparently 'unborn' wasn't clear enough.

19 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:41:35pm

re: #13 albusteve

this is an example of an honest, true zealot...he is not a cliche...he is bordering on insanity

Morally bankrupt for sure.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:42:09pm

re: #14 SixDegrees

Note that Roeder faces the death penalty for his actions. Which at least potentially makes him one of the predead.

I think, really, we are all the predead. Unless someone here is a Chicago voter.

/Crap! You guys have gotten to me!

21 metrolibertarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:42:21pm

re: #11 Basho

"If Roeder were alive during bible times Jesus would have been born. Err... no, wait..." -Chuck Norris

No, Chuck, if Scott Roeder were alive during the "crucifixion" of "Jesus" then "Jesus" would still be alive, because Scott Roeder would have stopped the Romans and everyone else "involved" in "his" "execution" with his gats. Then the Bible would speak highly of Shooting Scottie.

22 Summer Seale  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:42:25pm

Murdering people:

What would Jesus do?

23 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:42:46pm

I call BS on "activist" even if it's in quotes -- he's a terrorist in my books.

24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:43:25pm

Kansas has the death penalty, right?

Please tell me this is a capital case.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:43:38pm

re: #21 metrolibertarian

No, Chuck, if Scott Roeder were alive during the "crucifixion" of "Jesus" then "Jesus" would still be alive, because Scott Roeder would have stopped the Romans and everyone else "involved" in "his" "execution" with his gats. Then the Bible would speak highly of Shooting Scottie.

And just think how much more exciting the end of "The Passion of the Christ" would have been.

26 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:44:31pm

re: #22 Summer

Murdering people:

What would Jesus do?

I think he supported existing laws, but I could be wrong.

27 metrolibertarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:45:01pm

re: #23 Thanos

I call BS on "activist" even if it's in quotes -- he's a terrorist in my books.

Please, don't you know terrorism is only done by people who believe there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet? Have you been getting ideas from people other than the BNP, Vlaams Belang, and their mouthpieces in America like Spencer and Geller?

28 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #23 Thanos

I call BS on "activist" even if it's in quotes -- he's a terrorist in my books.

Agree. I think "bitch" would work just as well there.

29 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:45:50pm

Little reminder here, if I may...

O'Reilly? Words mean things.

Okay, back to the thread.

30 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:46:10pm

re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Kansas has the death penalty, right?

Please tell me this is a capital case.

With pleasure. Scotty is facing the needle.

31 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:46:37pm
32 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:46:39pm

OT: back to taping my thumbs to packages.....

33 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #13 albusteve

An insanity defense would have a better chance of success than a necessity defense.

The burden on Roeder to show necessity in his actions is so high precisely because of the crime he admits to have committed (murder).

However, this article suggests why his defense is throwing necessity out there:

Legal experts and others close to the case have suggested his public defenders may actually be aiming at a conviction on a lesser offence such as voluntary manslaughter - defined in Kansas as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force."

That would be an easier argument to make to jurors than a necessity defence, which is unlikely to win, said Melanie Wilson, a University of Kansas law professor. A necessity defence, also known as the "choice of evils defence," requires proof that the defendant reacted to an immediate danger, an argument that is undermined by abortion's legality.

Another person to watch is an Iowa anti-abortion activist Dave Leach, who has been separately crafting a necessity defence for Roeder and pushing for laws that make it easier for anti abortion activists to conduct their protests outside clinics.

34 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:46:42pm
35 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:48:19pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

I think, really, we are all the predead. Unless someone here is a Chicago voter.

/Crap! You guys have gotten to me!


Heh :)

36 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:48:55pm
37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:49:36pm

re: #33 lawhawk

Be kind of cool if he decided to name a few "accessories".

38 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:49:47pm
39 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:50:39pm
40 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:50:47pm
41 djughurknot  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:50:49pm

re: #17 albusteve

It's true. I readily admit that. I'm still suffering from a lingering case of variant BDS. Regarding the actual topic on hand, I'm quite glad this twit can't use the defense.

Here's hoping they throw the whole shelf of books at him.

42 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:50:58pm
43 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:51:13pm
44 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:54:18pm
45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:54:30pm

re: #40 political lunatic

In the movie "Law Abiding Citizen" the anti-hero gets to the chemicals used for one of his family's murderers. Makes it hurt really bad.

Can't say I root for that, I might mouth off from time to time, but I like the idea of sending them peacefully to meet their afterlife.

46 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:54:50pm

re: #41 djughurknot

It's true. I readily admit that. I'm still suffering from a lingering case of variant BDS. Regarding the actual topic on hand, I'm quite glad this twit can't use the defense.

Here's hoping they throw the whole shelf of books at him.

my beef with GWB is that he pandered to obstructionists like you thereby lengthening the war by a couple of years...in for a penny, in for a pound eh?

47 vxbush  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #44 SixDegrees

You know, with comments like these, I'm amazed people are concerned about waterboarding. Y'all are a gruesome crowd.

48 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:55:52pm
49 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:56:12pm

re: #23 Thanos

I call BS on "activist" even if it's in quotes -- he's a terrorist in my books.

A domestic terrorist.

50 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:56:23pm

re: #47 vxbush

You know, with comments like these, I'm amazed people are concerned about waterboarding. Y'all are a gruesome crowd.

I'm just trying to ensure a painless, humane death that will have a lasting impact on those left behind.

51 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:56:30pm

I suspect that this is an attempt to try and get another chance to overturn City of Wichita v. Tilson (cert denied by the US S.Ct.), which found: "The majority of courts reason that because abortion is a lawful, constitutionally protected act, it is not a legally recognized harm which can justify illegal conduct."

52 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:56:56pm
53 vxbush  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #50 SixDegrees

I'm just trying to ensure a painless, humane death that will have a lasting impact on those left behind.

I can appreciate the desire to make corporal punishment a deterrent. I really can. But having to worry about splatter shields rather detracts from that, methinks.

54 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:57:35pm

re: #47 vxbush

I never understand people who fantasize about extreme and gruesome ways of executing people.

55 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:57:59pm
56 djughurknot  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #46 albusteve

Clearly, you're right. I concede.

57 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:00:13pm

re: #53 vxbush

I can appreciate the desire to make corporal punishment a deterrent. I really can. But having to worry about splatter shields rather detracts from that, methinks.

Actually, I'm pretty much certain that the death penalty serves no useful deterrent purpose. If we're going to have it, I think we need to be honest about it and admit that it's applied for revenge.

I don't have a problem with that.

58 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:00:47pm

re: #50 SixDegrees

I'm just trying to ensure a painless, humane death that will have a lasting impact on those left behind.

/let him take a walk in the park with a drone?

59 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:01:58pm

re: #44 SixDegrees

OK, that grossed me out.

60 metrolibertarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:02:01pm

I don't see how leaving him in a Supermax Prison for the rest of his life isn't going to have a more "desired" punishing effect on this man. But then again, I don't believe there's any kind of supernatural punishment awaiting evil people like Mr. Roeder following their demise. Execution seems to be a pretty swift punishment for such an hideous crime.

61 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:02:40pm

re: #57 SixDegrees

Actually, I'm pretty much certain that the death penalty serves no useful deterrent purpose. If we're going to have it, I think we need to be honest about it and admit that it's applied for revenge.

I don't have a problem with that.

there could be a serious economic argument for it as well, if in those cases where guilt is admitted or obvious the perp was eliminated asap...like this case

62 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:02:51pm

Good Afternoon Lizards!
I am officially off for the next 2 weeks!
Let's hope Scott gets punished to the fullest extent of the law...Whatever a jury of his peers votes on behind closed doors...

63 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:03:07pm

re: #60 metrolibertarian

I don't see how leaving him in a Supermax Prison for the rest of his life isn't going to have a more "desired" punishing effect on this man. But then again, I don't believe there's any kind of supernatural punishment awaiting evil people like Mr. Roeder following their demise. Execution seems to be a pretty swift punishment for such an hideous crime.

Execution is permanent imprisonment in a place from which the prisoner can neither escape nor harm others.

64 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:03:56pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Did you get any snow?

65 political lunatic  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I feel the same way as you, most of the time. But when a guy terrorizes the opposite gender over a topic that should be left for women as a group and families of those women who are thinking about it, he deserves as much torture in this life as he will get in the next life. These are the worst kinds of terrorists, IMO. It's one thing to blow up buildings with planes, but it's a completely different thing to scare people in to giving up a hard-fought civil right. Sadly, it's all in the name of God. :(

66 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:04:50pm

re: #54 Obdicut

I never understand people who fantasize about extreme and gruesome ways of executing people.

Like topless chicks in bike helmets chasing the condemned off a cliff?

67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:05:07pm

re: #57 SixDegrees

For me (reluctantly admitted) it is not about revenge. It is about money. Executing the non-reformable, bad guys like this, should be made inexpensive and should occur often.

There, I admit it.

68 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #66 Ben Hur

Like topless chicks in bike helmets chasing the condemned off a cliff?

Only way to go.

69 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:05:35pm

re: #66 Ben Hur

Like topless chicks in bike helmets chasing the condemned off a cliff?

/why were you fleeing them?

70 Baier  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:05:41pm

re: #57 SixDegrees

Actually, I'm pretty much certain that the death penalty serves no useful deterrent purpose. If we're going to have it, I think we need to be honest about it and admit that it's applied for revenge.

I don't have a problem with that.

I do. Too many mistakes have been made.

71 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #64 Floral Giraffe

Did you get any snow?

Another inch this morning and some ice and snow Weds...They are predicting a white Christmas this year..My first! Yippee!

72 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:06:43pm

re: #61 albusteve

there could be a serious economic argument for it as well, if in those cases where guilt is admitted or obvious the perp was eliminated asap...like this case

The process has already been significantly streamlined. It took very little time from conviction to execution in the cases of Tim McVeigh or John Malvo. In the past, the final sentence was often delayed by many years, even decades.

For the most part, I'm not a fan of the death penalty - there have been far too many cases, especially recently, of people wrongly convicted and later found innocent. But there are those handful of cases where the evidence is clear and compelling enough to keep it on the table.

73 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:07:30pm

re: #71 HoosierHoops

Poor Winston!
Hope he gets some sweaters!

74 vxbush  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:07:50pm

re: #65 political lunatic

I feel the same way as you, most of the time. But when a guy terrorizes the opposite gender over a topic that should be left for women as a group and families of those women who are thinking about it, he deserves as much torture in this life as he will get in the next life. These are the worst kinds of terrorists, IMO. It's one thing to blow up buildings with planes, but it's a completely different thing to scare people in to giving up a hard-fought civil right. Sadly, it's all in the name of God. :(

Be aware that there are some of us (me, namely) who do not see abortion as a good thing, but we would never ever go off and hurt anyone about it. We have strong convictions regarding it, but would never condone what this guy did.

75 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:08:09pm

re: #72 SixDegrees

The process has already been significantly streamlined. It took very little time from conviction to execution in the cases of Tim McVeigh or John Malvo. In the past, the final sentence was often delayed by many years, even decades.

For the most part, I'm not a fan of the death penalty - there have been far too many cases, especially recently, of people wrongly convicted and later found innocent. But there are those handful of cases where the evidence is clear and compelling enough to keep it on the table.

he confessed...

76 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:08:16pm

re: #71 HoosierHoops

Hey, look at your Karma!

77 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:08:23pm

re: #70 Baier

I do. Too many mistakes have been made.

See my last post, just above.

78 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:08:38pm

re: #66 Ben Hur

No, more like the earlier one you posted. What you just said is extremely tame and non-graphic. What you first posted was graphic. There's a rather large difference.

I do completely agree that the death penalty should not be used at all.

79 metrolibertarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:08:45pm

re: #63 Guanxi88

Execution is permanent imprisonment in a place from which the prisoner can neither escape nor harm others.

I'm actually ignorant on the security of supermax prisons, has anyone ever escaped? I'm not trying to be an ass, just wondering.

80 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:09:39pm

re: #79 metrolibertarian

I'm actually ignorant on the security of supermax prisons, has anyone ever escaped? I'm not trying to be an ass, just wondering.

SO far as I can tell, I don't think anyone has. Prisoners in these facilities, though, do have the potential to harm others. Regardless, execution is the cheapest form of permanent imprisonment.

81 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:09:44pm

re: #79 metrolibertarian

I'm actually ignorant on the security of supermax prisons, has anyone ever escaped? I'm not trying to be an ass, just wondering.

Only Snake Plisken.

82 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:10:01pm

re: #73 Floral Giraffe

Poor Winston!
Hope he gets some sweaters!

He is getting a Colts and Pacers jersey for Christmas...
How is the weather in Cali?

83 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:10:49pm

re: #75 brookly red

he confessed...

...and was witnessed committing the act. I don't see any shred of doubt of guilt in this case.

Note that confession alone isn't sufficient for a conviction, let alone such sentencing. People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time, for a variety of reasons. I'd be unwilling to administer the death penalty based solely on a confession and no other supporting evidence.

84 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:10:55pm

re: #81 Mad Al-Jaffee

Only Snake Plisken.

and Clint Eastwood...Alcatraz was the first super max

85 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:11:00pm

re: #78 Obdicut

No, more like the earlier one you posted. What you just said is extremely tame and non-graphic. What you first posted was graphic. There's a rather large difference.

I do completely agree that the death penalty should not be used at all.

I am on the fence... it has an upside & a down side & compared to life in prison could be considered be considered merciful...

86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:11:22pm

re: #71 HoosierHoops

Another inch this morning and some ice and snow Weds...They are predicting a white Christmas this year..My first! Yippee!

The movie "Holiday Inn" is on AMC, the movie that debuted the song "White Christmas"... I've never seen it before.

They are wearing black-face.

Oh dear.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:12:29pm

re: #71 HoosierHoops

Sexy Karma there.

88 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:12:58pm

re: #78 Obdicut

No, more like the earlier one you posted. What you just said is extremely tame and non-graphic. What you first posted was graphic. There's a rather large difference.

I do completely agree that the death penalty should not be used at all.

The first was gutter humor (and probably unnecessary -as most of my humor)

The second is a scene from Monty Python "The Meaning of Life." It's what a condemned man chooses as his punishment.

89 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The movie "Holiday Inn" is on AMC, the movie that debuted the song "White Christmas"... I've never seen it before.

They are wearing black-face.

Oh dear.

Old movie.

90 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:13:52pm

re: #86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The movie "Holiday Inn" is on AMC, the movie that debuted the song "White Christmas"... I've never seen it before.

They are wearing black-face.

Oh dear.

I'm rewatching the Wrestler on TIVO...How goes it Veggie?

91 b_snark  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:14:18pm

re: #69 brookly red

/why were you fleeing them?

They have sticks.

Big sticks.

92 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #83 SixDegrees

...and was witnessed committing the act. I don't see any shred of doubt of guilt in this case.

Note that confession alone isn't sufficient for a conviction, let alone such sentencing. People confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time, for a variety of reasons. I'd be unwilling to administer the death penalty based solely on a confession and no other supporting evidence.

all true, I think tough that those seeking martyrdom should be denied it, that may actually be a deterrent.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:15:04pm

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Stop it now! Be happy Hoops!

94 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:15:04pm

re: #88 Ben Hur

If I could choose, I would have an early 80s Daryl Hannah use her thighs on me, the way she tried to kill Harrison Ford in Blade Runner.

95 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:16:05pm

4:20 EST?

96 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:16:40pm

Pfffttt

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:16:40pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

?

Means I would do it myself with a clawhammer, if the state asked me to. And I don't even approve of the death penalty. Theoretically.

98 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:16:56pm

re: #91 b_sharp

They have sticks.

Big sticks.

is that a LoTF reference?

99 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:17:04pm

re: #65 political lunatic

I feel the same way as you, most of the time. But when a guy terrorizes the opposite gender over a topic that should be left for women as a group and families of those women who are thinking about it, he deserves as much torture in this life as he will get in the next life. These are the worst kinds of terrorists, IMO. It's one thing to blow up buildings with planes, but it's a completely different thing to scare people in to giving up a hard-fought civil right. Sadly, it's all in the name of God. :(

Uh, if I recall, it was not just buildings blown up with those planes, but thousands of PEOPLE too, including children and planes full of people who surely knew (and suffered for knowing) that they were going to die a gruesome death.

100 DaddyG  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:17:58pm

Society as a whole will be better off paying for my mortgage and allowing me to go to Disney for free than having me be a burden on the taxpayers for government healthcare paid for stress related heart disease.

/I'm just sayin'

101 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:18:17pm

re: #82 HoosierHoops

Wet last night, almost 60 today. Chilly for us!

102 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:19:04pm
103 albusteve  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:19:08pm

re: #100 DaddyG

Society as a whole will be better off paying for my mortgage and allowing me to go to Disney for free than having me be a burden on the taxpayers for government healthcare paid for stress related heart disease.

/I'm just sayin'

you should go to Disney World at least once no matter what it cost

104 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:19:14pm

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sexy Karma there.

Alot of that karma came from me telling stories about Jordan in Iraq..
I'll never forget the support and kindness during that time for our son from you lizards...The 3am calls from a rooftop in Fallujuh, The stress every day worrying about his safety and 1st platoon 3/5th Marines...
You folks were my rock in a hard time...I love you lizards...

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:19:50pm

re: #60 metrolibertarian

I don't see how leaving him in a Supermax Prison for the rest of his life isn't going to have a more "desired" punishing effect on this man. But then again, I don't believe there's any kind of supernatural punishment awaiting evil people like Mr. Roeder following their demise. Execution seems to be a pretty swift punishment for such an hideous crime.

I'm OK with Supermax. But punishment isn't so much the issue to me as that there are simply some crimes that let you know a person isn't suitable to interact with other people. At all.

106 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:20:36pm

re: #104 HoosierHoops

Alot of that karma came from me telling stories about Jordan in Iraq..
I'll never forget the support and kindness during that time for our son from you lizards...The 3am calls from a rooftop in Fallujuh, The stress every day worrying about his safety and 1st platoon 3/5th Marines...
You folks were my rock in a hard time...I love you lizards...

Nice to have him home for Christmas. How's he doing?

107 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:22:07pm

re: #106 Floral Giraffe

Nice to have him home for Christmas. How's he doing?

He got married.. Wants to be a policeman...Life is sweet Floral...

108 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:22:20pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Uh, if I recall, it was not just buildings blown up with those planes, but thousands of PEOPLE too, including children and planes full of people who surely knew (and suffered for knowing) that they were going to die a gruesome death.

I am on the fence about the death penalty for criminal cases, but I have no problem at all with the use of big time violence being applied to either prevent or to punish terrorists & their supporters.

109 political lunatic  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #74 vxbush

Understood and updinged. :) I can't ever agree that abortions should be outlawed, but it's impossible to have a rational debate about this topic with people on both sides. Unfortunately, the debate isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

110 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:23:42pm

Later, Lizards!

111 vxbush  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:24:34pm

re: #109 political lunatic

Understood and updinged. :) I can't ever agree that abortions should be outlawed, but it's impossible to have a rational debate about this topic with people on both sides. Unfortunately, the debate isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

From what I can tell in the arguments, people on each side have different determinations as to what is most important. Consequently, you're dealing with strong emotions and people's core values and value systems. Those are very hard to change.

112 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:25:28pm

re: #109 political lunatic

Understood and updinged. :) I can't ever agree that abortions should be outlawed, but it's impossible to have a rational debate about this topic with people on both sides. Unfortunately, the debate isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Well, it's impossible to do so on the Internet, anyway. In real life, it's not so difficult to find reasonable people on both sides and even have them reach some sort of compromise on the matter.

113 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:25:43pm

re: #108 brookly red

I am on the fence about the death penalty for criminal cases, but I have no problem at all with the use of big time violence being applied to either prevent or to punish terrorists & their supporters.

I am anti-death penalty, to the point where i could never be on a jury that voted to impose that punishment, and it's for the same reason I am anti-abortion - live is precious and not ours to take.

Roeder deserves the harshest possible punishment.

As for those who wish this country harm - my obligation to treat my fellow man with respect ceases when said man is threatening to kill me or mine. So I'm with you - no problem at all with "enhanced interrogation" techniques if that's what it takes to save us from another 9/11.

114 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:26:04pm
115 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:26:10pm
116 DaddyG  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:26:40pm

re: #103 albusteve

you should go to Disney World at least once no matter what it cost

I've been there with the family in my old "corporate salary" days. We miss it but it is worth a trip once.

I plan to return with a huge spending account when I am rich and famous.

117 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:29:09pm
118 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:30:08pm

re: #117 HoosierHoops

I don't believe Capital punishment is meant to be a deterrent..
It is simply a punishment for crimes against citizens

Well, it certainly deters and prevents recidivism.

119 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:30:11pm
120 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:30:47pm
121 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:31:36pm

re: #120 Guanxi88

Disney's Opening a French Revolution themed park; hadn't you heard?

I hear the cake is to die for

122 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:31:50pm

re: #120 Guanxi88

Disney's Opening a French Revolution themed park; hadn't you heard?

good... I got some names on my blanket ;)

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:31:56pm

re: #120 Guanxi88

Disney's Opening a French Revolution themed park; hadn't you heard?

Theme song? "America? Spit!"

124 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:33:25pm

re: #120 Guanxi88

Disney's Opening a French Revolution themed park; hadn't you heard?

OPen 10 days a week during Thermidor, closed on the Feast of the Goddess Reason.

125 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:34:24pm

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Theme song? "America? Spit!"

No silly, Small World remix...

"we elected them after all,
we elected them after all...

126 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:35:40pm

Video: Chasing the Dragon

127 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:36:02pm

re: #125 brookly red

No silly, Small World remix...

"we elected them after all,
we elected them after all...

OK, now I've got that song in my head.

I hate you.

128 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:37:51pm

re: #127 SixDegrees

OK, now I've got that song in my head.

I hate you.

well think of my driving song...

"it's a rental I don't care...
it's a rental I don't care..."

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:39:34pm

re: #120 Guanxi88

Disney's Opening a French Revolution themed park; hadn't you heard?

Now that would be good family fun...

/

130 ED 209  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:39:40pm

Ok, joke I heard at karate class years (and years) ago-
3 guys are stranded on a native Island; They are caught stealing food from the local tribe and brought before the Chief:
"Your punishment is death or bunga- choose!"
The first guy says "bunga"; he is bent over a log and raped.
The second guy thinks about it, then says "bunga"; same thing happens.
Third guy, not wanting to be raped, says "death!"
The chief cry out "Death by bunga!"

131 theheat  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:39:58pm

The greatest service we can do as individuals is to ignore Roeder's crazy bullshit - not give his whacked ideology or that of his sympathizers the time of day - and make sure that he is prosecuted for murder. "Tell it to the hand, asshole."

The scary part is so many people quietly support him and his agenda. And many of them, and those that claim to have a 1-800 line to God, have their fingers in the pie of politics.

"Well, I don't agree with what he did, but..." Those kinds of people scare me.

132 Ben Hur  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:47:47pm

re: #131 theheat

The greatest service we can do as individuals is to ignore Roeder's crazy bullshit - not give his whacked ideology or that of his sympathizers the time of day - and make sure that he is prosecuted for murder. "Tell it to the hand, asshole."

The scary part is so many people quietly support him and his agenda. And many of them, and those that claim to have a 1-800 line to God, have their fingers in the pie of politics.

"Well, I don't agree with what he did, but..." Those kinds of people scare me.

But you get no points for that.

133 John Vreeland  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

I think, really, we are all the predead. Unless someone here is a Chicago voter.


There are a lot of dead people in Miami who spring to life on election day. The guy who lived in the park next to my old gated community told me he voted "a lot" every election, using different names and ---I assume---different ID's. It was always local stuff, though. For president he always voted for Gus Haul no matter what they told him, though I suspect he changed that to Patrick Buchanan a while back. Just a hunch.

I also recall Jimmy Carter complaining that the dead were legally allowed to vote for several years after death in Georgia. When he tried to disenfranchise them he got voted out of office. I guess you can't blame them; I would have done the same if I were dead.

134 brookly red  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:50:59pm

re: #131 theheat

The greatest service we can do as individuals is to ignore Roeder's crazy bullshit - not give his whacked ideology or that of his sympathizers the time of day - and make sure that he is prosecuted for murder. "Tell it to the hand, asshole."

The scary part is so many people quietly support him and his agenda. And many of them, and those that claim to have a 1-800 line to God, have their fingers in the pie of politics.

"Well, I don't agree with what he did, but..." Those kinds of people scare me.

yeah I think that is their intent...

135 Guanxi88  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 2:06:01pm

re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist

Now that would be good family fun...

/

Well, it'd be educational, anyway. Certainly a warning and a caution for those who seek to "improve" things.

136 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 2:28:14pm

First time I ever heard the "necessity" defense used as spuriously as this was in the 80s. Some nuclear freezeniks claimed that they had to block a train carrying nuclear warheads, in order to stave off global annihilation. The judge threw them in jail anyway, for trespassing on railroad property.

137 What, me worry?  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:07:48pm

re: #133 Vreejack

There are a lot of dead people in Miami who spring to life on election day. The guy who lived in the park next to my old gated community told me he voted "a lot" every election, using different names and ---I assume---different ID's. It was always local stuff, though. For president he always voted for Gus Haul no matter what they told him, though I suspect he changed that to Patrick Buchanan a while back. Just a hunch.

I also recall Jimmy Carter complaining that the dead were legally allowed to vote for several years after death in Georgia. When he tried to disenfranchise them he got voted out of office. I guess you can't blame them; I would have done the same if I were dead.

What are you talking about? How do you use different names and different IDs? I think your friend is telling you stories.

138 Mark Pennington  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 5:23:10pm

Roeder kills a person because of his religious beliefs and the media calls him an activist. If this had been a Muslim, who claimed they were anti-west, we would be calling him a terrorist. I guess you can kill someone in order to terrorize others in that profession, or living that lifestyle and not be branded as terrorist as long as you're not Arab, or have an Arabic name.

So how is this guy any different from the Ft. Hood shooter?

PS: They are really just pro-fetus. Once the baby is born, they do not care.

139 andres  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 3:17:55am

re: #130 ED 209

Rape ain't funny, mate.

140 ED 209  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:19:20am

re: #139 andres

Rape ain't funny, mate.

You aren't doing it right.


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