Senate Passes Health Care Bill

Politics • Views: 3,928

You’ve probably already heard that the Senate passed the health care reform bill today, after months of political wrangling designed to remove any vestiges of actual usefulness: Senate approves landmark health-care bill.

Democrats are increasingly confident that President Obama will sign a bill into law in early 2010 that would prevent insurers from refusing coverage to people with pre-existing conditions, limit the amount individuals have to pay for their own care and require other reforms that Obama called “the toughest measures ever taken to hold the insurance industry accountable.”

“We are now incredibly close to making health insurance reform a reality in this country,” Obama told reporters in a White House appearance shortly after the Senate vote. “Our challenge now is to finish the job.”

At least the commie “public option” to pollute our precious bodily fluids was defeated. Or was it?

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314 comments
1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:02:57pm

I knew it. I could have sworn I saw some 'death panels' earlier today. Wait, maybe it was just lousy wood paneling. Meh, same difference.

2 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:05:05pm

The problem I have is that it is now "health insurance reform" rather than "health CARE reform". They are two very different things.

3 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:05:31pm

I am totally in favor of public option health care - as part of a balanced budget amendment.

This bill that was passed will do little to provide quality health care at a decent price for all, and it will add another Trillion Dollars to our debt.

We could have done much better than this. Oh well. Democratic lawmakers and President Obama now own this one lock stock and barrel. Good luck with that.

4 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:06:01pm

Sorry. Don't trust these people.

5 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:06:03pm

And to my right, on the ad "stop government-run health care - sign the petition."

6 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:06:44pm

Ugly development, to do this to half of American voters on Christmas Eve is nasty.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:06:45pm

re: #5 Walter L. Newton

Mine too. Heh.

8 recusancy  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:07:34pm

re: #6 Bagua

Ugly development, to do this to half of American voters on Christmas Eve is nasty.

Did you imply that you were a Hillary voter in the last thread?

9 irish rose  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:08:42pm

Good evening Charles, lizards.
Stopping by briefly to wish you all a very merry Christmas!

10 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:08:48pm

What actually hurts my feelings most this Christmas is what that trucking company did to its employees a couple of days ago. I can't get them outa my head... and heart.

11 Gus  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:09:07pm

It's not a done deal yet. It goes back to the House now.

12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:09:18pm

re: #9 irish rose

Merry Christmas, Rose!

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:09:43pm

re: #10 allegro

huh?

14 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:10:06pm

re: #11 Gus 802

It's not a done deal yet. It goes back to the House now.

and then probably through the courts...lawsuits are gonna fly, bet me

15 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:10:09pm

re: #6 Bagua

Ugly development, to do this to half of American voters on Christmas Eve is nasty.

The bill is the total property of the left. It effects everyone. Too bad we can't just give it to the Americans who want it.

16 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:10:10pm

re: #6 Bagua

Ugly development, to do this to half of American voters on Christmas Eve is nasty.

They stuck it to us didn't they?

17 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:10:56pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A major trucking company suddenly shut its doors a couple of days ago. No warning. Just told the drivers, leave your trucks where they are, you're unemployed. Even guys who were far from home. No gas. No way home.

18 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:11:01pm

re: #10 allegro

What actually hurts my feelings most this Christmas is what that trucking company did to its employees a couple of days ago. I can't get them outa my head... and heart.

What are you talking about?

19 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:11:24pm

re: #16 Blueheron

They stuck it to us didn't they?

I'm talking a very positive outlook on all this. We may be seeing the final nail in the left's coffin for the next election period. Every cloud has a silver lining.

20 Gus  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:11:32pm

re: #14 albusteve

and then probably through the courts...lawsuits are gonna fly, bet me

Maybe so.

21 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:00pm

re: #8 recusancy

Did you imply that you were a Hillary voter in the last thread?

Good grief, is my prose really that incomprehensible? I was a PUMA for strictly mercenary reasons.

22 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:22pm

re: #17 allegro

Poop! What company?

23 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:23pm

re: #11 Gus 802

It's not a done deal yet. It goes back to the House now.


No actually it goes to conference committee where Harry and Nancy tidies everything up for the final vote in both houses. Now do you feel better?

24 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:23pm

re: #18 Blueheron

Looking for a link. It was big in the news here. BRB

25 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:41pm

re: #15 Walter L. Newton

The bill is the total property of the left. It effects everyone. Too bad we can't just give it to the Americans who want it.

Merry fucking Christmas.

26 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:12:47pm

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

27 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:13:08pm

re: #14 albusteve

and then probably through the courts...lawsuits are gonna fly, bet me


From your lips to God's ear.

28 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:13:49pm

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

nah...move along, yer in the way

29 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:14:05pm

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

I've heard that this will be tied up in court for a long time to come.

30 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:14:28pm

re: #17 allegro

A major trucking company suddenly shut its doors a couple of days ago. No warning. Just told the drivers, leave your trucks where they are, you're unemployed. Even guys who were far from home. No gas. No way home.


But but they will have health care in.....three years!

31 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:14:42pm

re: #9 irish rose

Good evening Charles, lizards.
Stopping by briefly to wish you all a very merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Rose.

32 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:15:12pm

re: #16 Blueheron

They stuck it to us didn't they?

It is triumphalism, the desire to see ones opponents dispirited, even on their holidays.

33 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:15:19pm

re: #29 Racer X

I've heard that this will be tied up in court for a long time to come.

S Carolina has already vowed to sue over the deals cut with NE and the other states

34 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:15:55pm

re: #24 allegro

Looking for a link. It was big in the news here. BRB


Thanks.

35 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:16:12pm

Here's a

video

Your text to link... about it

36 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:16:29pm

re: #33 albusteve

S Carolina has already vowed to sue over the deals cut with NE and the other states

There will be many lawsuits. This legislation is full of perks and pork.

Perks and Pork!

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:16:58pm

re: #36 Racer X

There will be many lawsuits. This legislation is full of perks and pork.

Perks and Pork!

Sounds like a coffee shop that also serves sausages.

38 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:17:10pm

re: #25 Racer X

Merry fucking Christmas.

Whats the matter Sunshine? //

39 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:18:03pm

Why is the President proposing legislation, and promoting it? The Constitution gives the president the job of enforcing the law, not initiating a law, and it is the job of the Congress to write laws, and not to package words written by an industry, into a bill.

We are very far from what the Constitution ever intended.

40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:18:39pm

re: #30 Blueheron

But but they will have health care in...three years never!!

41 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:18:53pm

re: #28 albusteve

nah...move along, yer in the way

We ALL are in the way!

42 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:19:11pm

re: #39 Ojoe

...

We are very far from what the Constitution ever intended.

Change!

43 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:19:27pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

I was thinking of something entirely different, but since this is a fucking family site we'll just stick with your idea.
/

44 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:20:13pm

re: #38 Blueheron

Whats the matter Sunshine? //

Heh.

Obama and Co. just added another Trillion to our debt. We just passed a law that the majority of Americans do not want. Not one Republican voted for it. So much for partisanship.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:20:15pm

re: #43 Slumbering Behemoth

I was thinking of something entirely different, but since this is a fucking family site we'll just stick with your idea.
/

This is a family site?

46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:21:17pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

This is a family site?

Fuck yeah.

47 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:21:26pm

re: #44 Racer X

Not one Republican voted for it. So much for partisanship.

No Republican is EVER going to vote for anything proposed. Please.

48 golgoth  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:22:11pm

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

Seriously, there is no constitutional provision for the FAA!

How dare we have regulated flight patterns!

/If you want to make an argument, make an argument, dont just bring up the Constitution as Godwin style conversation stopper.

49 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:22:20pm

the CBO has already backed away from this bill claiming the donks are misinterpreting the numbers, some to that effect...I wouldn't say for sure but Walter may be right...even if this thing is sign into law, people are going to attack it relentlessly and tear it apart piece by piece, exposing every nuanced fraud written into it....pork will fly in everybodys face and worse yet, the slimy deals with pharm, the providers and the AMA etc are all gonna be exposed in plain language for all to see....what damage this will cause the donks is anybody's guess....this bill is fighting a huge uphill battle yet

50 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:22:58pm

re: #32 Bagua

It is triumphalism, the desire to see ones opponents dispirited, even on their holidays.

Yes, Christmas is a Republican holiday. Good point.

51 Blueheron  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:23:33pm

re: #35 allegro

Here's a


Your text to link... about it

Thanks I bookmarked it.
My hairy monster insists I watch a movie with him. Will be back later :)

52 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:23:44pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

Yes, Christmas is a Republican holiday. Good point.

Merry Christmas stalker.

53 KingKenrod  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:23:46pm

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

I think the Dems are hoping the insurance mandate is struck down because it will provide political cover for doing something stronger. They would rather raise taxes and provide universal coverage through a govt program, but can't get away with that now politically.

54 golgoth  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:24:08pm

re: #39 Ojoe

Why is the President proposing legislation, and promoting it? The Constitution gives the president the job of enforcing the law, not initiating a law, and it is the job of the Congress to write laws, and not to package words written by an industry, into a bill.

We are very far from what the Constitution ever intended.

Dont be a Paultard, this is not unstandard procedure in today's politics.

55 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:24:45pm

re: #47 allegro

No Republican is EVER going to vote for anything proposed. Please.

why do you say that?...they carried the Stimulus bill, when the donks could not get it done on their own

56 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:25:44pm

re: #39 Ojoe

Not bickering here, just curious:

Section 3 - State of the Union, Convening Congress

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Would the bolded part suggest that the POTUS is within constitutional actions to propose measures or legislation for the congress to consider?

I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to be a smart-ass.

57 golgoth  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:25:51pm

re: #55 albusteve

I think you mean the TARP bill, not the Stimulus.

58 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:25:54pm
59 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:26:05pm

re: #35 allegro

Here's a

Your text to link... about it

Oh, that's just wrong!

60 KingKenrod  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:26:46pm

re: #48 golgoth

Seriously, there is no constitutional provision for the FAA!

How dare we have regulated flight patterns!

/If you want to make an argument, make an argument, dont just bring up the Constitution as Godwin style conversation stopper.

Interstate commerce.

And don't give me any crap about insurance purchase mandates being the regulation of interstate commerce. The Feds can regulate interstate commerce, not force people to engage in it against their will.

61 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:26:47pm

Best Santa scene....ever.

62 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:27:13pm

re: #59 reine.de.tout

Yes, it is. I think it's about the wrongest thing I've ever seen.

63 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:27:30pm

re: #57 golgoth

I think you mean the TARP bill, not the Stimulus.

no

64 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:27:55pm

re: #62 allegro

Yes, it is. I think it's about the wrongest thing I've ever seen.

Their last check bounced.
They kept working.
Then laid off with no notice whatsoever.

Wrong.

65 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:28:01pm

re: #35 allegro

I saw a news article on that yesterday.
I can't find it now.
It had a listing of other trucking companies with phone numbers, offering jobs or transport home. It was a heartwarming end to the article!

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:28:12pm

Guys, I'm just going to say this, and then sit back and say random funny shit:

We have come through a lot as an online community in the last few months. I can tell that people are really angry, and really upset, and the tone here is gonna get a little harsh.

Let's not get too bitter and crazy on Christmas Eve, OK? Let's have no one walking away from the computer feeling mad as hell at fellow lizards if we can help it.

If you don't like this idea or mine, go ahead and shoot from the hip. I'm not going to fight over whether or not we should fight. This is, however, my strong suggestion to everyone.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

67 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:29:16pm

While I don't see how this is necessarily a panacea, I also fail to see how this is foreshadows the downfall of humanity. Instead of making billions in profits, insurance companies must now settle for merely hundreds of millions? Someone with a chronic illness who gets laid off (so that their employer can outsource their job to India) now gets kicked to the curb by a leather-toed boot rather than by a steel-toed one?

68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:30:12pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

You. Are. So. Hawt.

69 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:30:19pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Internet: srs bzns!

70 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:30:26pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Hear! Hear! I'm all for that. Besides, I need to get my shit together and head out for a Christmas Eve meal pretty soon. Don't want to eat Xmas ham on an angry stomach.

71 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:30:53pm

re: #62 allegro

Yes, it is. I think it's about the wrongest thing I've ever seen.

Who do you blame, the Senate?

72 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:31:02pm

re: #65 Floral Giraffe

I haven't seen about those other companies, but I'm so glad they have come forward. There is something about Big Bad truckers reduced to tears that tears me up inside. It tells a story about where we are as a country that breaks my heart.

73 Cathypop  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:31:36pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist
Merry Christmas SFZ!

74 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:32:11pm

re: #63 albusteve

no

correction, yes

75 golgoth  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:32:17pm

re: #60 KingKenrod

Not being a constitutional scholar, my assumption with that provision is that it is a General welfare clause.

It would stipulate that it is better for a populace to have insurance so that they would not have to worry on the issue.

Now my take is that the mandate is a severe issue if there is no public plan that takes those who cannot or do not want to join a private insurance plan, then they are forced to choose private insurance. That more than anything else would have some severe constitutional issues, which actually may force the government to bring about some kind of public plan.

76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:32:21pm

re: #70 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't want to eat Xmas ham on an angry stomach.


Me neither.

77 Racer X  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:32:36pm

re: #74 albusteve

correction, yes

Wait, maybe.

78 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:34:10pm

re: #77 Racer X

Wait, maybe.

I dunno?....what was the question?

79 jaunte  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:34:26pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

Arrow Trucking still has a drivers wanted ad up:
[Link: www.everytruckjob.com...]

80 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:17pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

Merry Christmas all, friend and foe alike.

81 Vambo  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:26pm

re: #75 golgoth


Now my take is that the mandate is a severe issue if there is no public plan that takes those who cannot or do not want to join a private insurance plan, then they are forced to choose private insurance. That more than anything else would have some severe constitutional issues, which actually may force the government to bring about some kind of public plan.

I believe that's exactly the idea - pretty sneaky! But I support a public option, so I'm eager to see how this plays out.

82 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:31pm

re: #71 Bagua

Who do you blame, the Senate?

I haven't blamed anyone. I do believe that the company, knowing it is serious financial distress as it must have been, should have been honest with its employees before now. To just one day suddenly pull the plug, leaving employees far away from home with no way to get home, sucks the big one and is inexcusable.

83 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:42pm

My take on it is if you cover everyone to go to the doctor on a regular basis, you'll end up paying a hell of a lot less as a society with preventative medicine rather than extremely costly end of life medicine as a whole nation.

Everyone knows that a lot of our highest medical costs are for people who are dying in hospitals because they hadn't visited a doctor in years and even decades because they couldn't afford one. It's little things like that - in a Giuliani sense - that can help fix the bigger things.

84 badger1970  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:50pm

re: #67 negativ

I fell into a similar situation with my daughter when I got laid off and when I got back on my feet, my daughter no longer was able to be insured, even by the S&W Young Texans Health Plan due to her pre-existing condition.

The insurance companies are out for profit, period, however the government to this to a different level by plugging and chugging and even bribing fellow lawmakers to create this behemoth of a deficit anchor.

On a lighter note, Merry Christmas if that's OK.

85 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:35:53pm

Mrs Steven Fry's version of Twas The Night Before Christmas.

86 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:38:03pm

re: #82 allegro

I haven't blamed anyone. I do believe that the company, knowing it is serious financial distress as it must have been, should have been honest with its employees before now. To just one day suddenly pull the plug, leaving employees far away from home with no way to get home, sucks the big one and is inexcusable.

They may have gone bankrupt, been seized, denied credit, collapsed, who knows? All of life is a ponzi scheme when what sustains us is cut off. Those who survive scramble and get on.

I doubt it was a good Christmas for the companies owners and managers either.

87 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:39:13pm

And in the spirit of Christmas Eve, here's part 1 of a Blackadder Christmas Carol.

88 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:39:18pm

re: #62 allegro

And, the company issued gas cards were blocked, so they had to go out of pocket to take their loads to the nearest depot.
Classic Grinch story.

89 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:39:42pm

My take is that I am not a million dollar special interest, so my opinion doesn't matter.

90 golgoth  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:39:43pm

re: #78 albusteve

I dunno?...what was the question?

Technically yes, Sen. Snowe did vote for the Stimulus plan, but she was the lone republican to vote.

However, your contention as I could gather is that republicans put enough votes to push the bill into law, which is what happened with TARP.
[Link: clerk.house.gov...]

[Link: mediamatters.org...] (more context)

91 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:40:23pm

I'm out. Merry Christmas Lizards! Peace!

92 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:40:27pm

the King

93 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:41:02pm

re: #86 Bagua

They may have gone bankrupt, been seized, denied credit, collapsed, who knows? All of life is a ponzi scheme when what sustains us is cut off. Those who survive scramble and get on.

I doubt it was a good Christmas for the companies owners and managers either.

I've owned a business. I knew it was in trouble long before I screwed any employees, and nowhere near this level. Are you actually justifying this?

94 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:41:12pm

re: #72 allegro

I went & looked again, but my tired eyes couldn't handle the site.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:41:51pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

"Help me, I've come aflame again!"

/Venture Bros

yeah, I'm not even getting in on this discussion. I've got all kinds of Christmas happening here, I STILL HAVE SHOPPING TO DO, and people here are too bent out of shape about the health care bill.

I'm gonna get my shopping done, have some weapons-grade nog, play with my tablet PC and wish everyone (yes, even you, Albusteve) a Merry Christmas from the Island of Misfit Toys. 8-)

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:42:02pm

re: #88 Floral Giraffe

And, the company issued gas cards were blocked, so they had to go out of pocket to take their loads to the nearest depot.
Classic Grinch story.

One of my coworkers used to be a trucker. I bet I'm going to hear from him about this one.

97 jaunte  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:42:17pm

Mismanagement leads to legal problems:

At 8am on Tuesday morning, Arrow Trucking workers assembled to find out what had happened. A source says although owner Doug Pielsticker was there, his attorney did all the talking, saying they were sorry for the way things had come down. But that was basically it. No explanation. No reason why.

The sudden closure without notice may put Arrow Trucking in violation of the federal WARN Act. The law requires companies with more than 100 employees to give workers 60-days advance written notice before a mass layoff. Violating the act could make the company liable for back pay to each employee let go without proper notice. Employment experts say certain exceptions exisits, such as unforseen circumstances. The Oklahoma Employment Security Commission says that Arrow Trucking did not notify them of the impending layoffs.


[Link: www.ktul.com...]

98 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:42:26pm

re: #90 golgoth

Technically yes, Sen. Snowe did vote for the Stimulus plan, but she was the lone republican to vote.

However, your contention as I could gather is that republicans put enough votes to push the bill into law, which is what happened with TARP.
[Link: clerk.house.gov...]

[Link: mediamatters.org...] (more context)

you are correct...in my blind, seething rage I became momentarily unable to recall events, but I'm better now

99 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:43:42pm

re: #89 Sharmuta

My take is that I am not a million dollar special interest, so my opinion doesn't matter.

it's invaluable to me...fyi

100 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:43:49pm

So one company goes out of business, big deal, a good "human interest" story with weeping truckers and we move on.

Meanwhile, has anyone seen the chart for the US Enemployment rate?

Yes it is a Hockey Stick

Merry Christmas America from Obama, Reid, Pelosi and the MSM.

101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:44:39pm

re: #61 Summer

There are porn directors all over the world that disagree with you.

Just sayin'.

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:44:50pm

re: #91 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm out. Merry Christmas Lizards! Peace!

Dammit, he left before I could post my Black Metal Carol of the Bells.

103 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:44:54pm

re: #100 Bagua

So one company goes out of business, big deal, a good "human interest" story with weeping truckers and we move on.

Methinks that define the term "asshole".

104 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:45:06pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, you do say "random funny shit" really well!

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:45:43pm

re: #61 Summer

Best Santa scene...ever.

That is number one, and the Bad Santa scene where drunk Billy Bob Thorton is coming up the mall escalator is my #2. :D

106 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:45:52pm

Vaguely on-topic:
My Shit's Fucked Up
Not much of a WZ fan, but I like this a lot.

107 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:45:55pm

re: #103 allegro

You mean me?

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:46:49pm

re: #106 negativ

I adore me some Warren Zevon :D He did a cyberpunk album! How can I not love him.

109 palomino  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:47:42pm

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Does anyone care that there's zero constitutional authority for such legislation?

How is there any less constitutional authority for this than social security or medicare? Ever since the Supreme Court gave an expansive interpretation of the interstate commerce clause a half century ago, legislation like this has generally been upheld. Not too likely that federal courts will strike this down, particularly the parts that regulate insurance cos.

110 UncleSam  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:48:40pm

Actually, I was hoping to have my precious bodily fluids polluted by the public option, because the health care plan for part-time employees at my company, Home Despot, really sucks, and full-time employees can get Kaiser Permanente health care, which is excellent and which I had for twenty-eight years, is available for the same price as the crappy Aetna coverage which is the only option for part-timers.
The dental and vision plans for part-timers are very good, though.

111 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:48:41pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Guys, I'm just going to say this, and then sit back and say random funny shit:

We have come through a lot as an online community in the last few months. I can tell that people are really angry, and really upset, and the tone here is gonna get a little harsh.

Let's not get too bitter and crazy on Christmas Eve, OK? Let's have no one walking away from the computer feeling mad as hell at fellow lizards if we can help it.

If you don't like this idea or mine, go ahead and shoot from the hip. I'm not going to fight over whether or not we should fight. This is, however, my strong suggestion to everyone.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

Would've been more effective if you had posted it in CAPSLOCKRAGE!11!
/// +1 :)

112 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:48:58pm

re: #99 albusteve

Aww- thanks, Bish.

113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:50:01pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

"The Wind" broke my heart.

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:50:41pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

FOOKYEAHCAPSLOCK

115 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:50:51pm

re: #107 Bagua

You mean me?

You put it in writing. You own it.

116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:51:42pm

re: #113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"The Wind" broke my heart.

That's a tough record to listen to, yeah. :(

The ones I play constantly are Excitable Boy, Transverse City, and Mr. Bad Example.

117 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:52:49pm

on the front page of the ABQ Journal yesterday...
somebody dumped a bunch of gold and silver coils into a Salvation Army bucket outside if a store in Clovis, New Mexico, a small, poor, dusty little town way out east in the middle of nowhere....value of the coins, over $9000...somebody has a solid gold heart

118 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:52:49pm

re: #115 allegro

You put it in writing. You own it.

I see you're in the holiday spirit. Such a nice thing to say. I guess that is what we have come to here on this forum.

119 JoyousMN  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:53:33pm

I know that for my family this is a huge relief. If I lose my job and our health insurance from it I know that we can get coverage even though my hus has a pre-existing condition.

I so wanted a medicare buy-in at 55 or a public option, but thanks to Joe and Ben that's not going to happen. But at least we know we won't be left without insurance.

120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:55:15pm

re: #116 WindUpBird

Shadows are fallin'
And I'm runnin' out of breath;
Keep me in your heart for awhile...

*sniff*

121 Van Helsing  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:55:32pm

re: #36 Racer X

There will be many lawsuits. This legislation is full of perks and pork.

Perks and Pork!

Full of perks and the taxpayers get porked.
Yup. Love them congresscritters.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:56:26pm

re: #119 JoyousMN

They could've done something without this.

123 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:57:52pm

re: #118 Bagua

I see you're in the holiday spirit. Such a nice thing to say. I guess that is what we have come to here on this forum.

You're seriously condemning me for lacking in the holiday spirit for calling you out on this?

So one company goes out of business, big deal, a good "human interest" story with weeping truckers and we move on.

As I said, asshole.

124 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:58:37pm

re: #56 Slumbering Behemoth

I think Obama is quite beyond recommending this measure, he is spearheading it and pushing and pushing it.

And the Democrats too, though the Constitution does not regulate political parties.

125 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:58:56pm

the King

126 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:59:47pm

re: #123 allegro

We discuss things here, we don't call each other vulgar names.

127 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 4:59:52pm

re: #125 albusteve

first 1:30 that is

128 Van Helsing  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:02:30pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They could've done something without this.

That would've required thoughtful examination of the actual problem and then determining how the costs can be most effectively covered.

Nothing is being done to lower the cost of delivering health care services. Just imposing a government set pay scale that will, eventually (probably soon), lead to a shortage of quality providers.

And basically making taxpayers responsible for providing the money to cover there own and others health insurance costs.

Yup. I'm thrilled with how progressive this mess is. Progressively making it more and more difficult to live the way I want to.

But of course we did elect as president a man who said we can't drive whatever we want, eat whatever we want, and keep the thermostat at 72.

Nice that he's keeping some promises.

129 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:02:37pm

re: #126 Bagua

We discuss things here, we don't call each other vulgar names.

Been around here long? :)

130 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:02:43pm

re: #123 allegro

As I said, asshole.

lighten up...be jolly

131 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:04:24pm

re: #72 allegro

Google was mah friend....
Not the same article, but a good one!

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

132 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:04:35pm

re: #130 albusteve

lighten up...be jolly

I hear ya, darlin', but jolly I can't feel when people are hurting the way they are.

133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:04:43pm

re: #125 albusteve

General interest (to me)

I've been to the American Real Estate Holy Trinity. I've been to Monticello. I've been to Mount Vernon. I've been to Graceland.

134 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:05:02pm

seeing conservatives lose their minds over this is the best early birthday present ever

135 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:05:39pm

re: #132 allegro

I hear ya, darlin', but jolly I can't feel when people are hurting the way they are.

That was not my point, which you misunderstood out of ignorance and hostility.

136 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:05:59pm

re: #134 SpaceJesus

seeing conservatives lose their minds over this is the best early birthday present ever

Here's some karma! Muhahahaha!
/:)

137 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:06:03pm

OK that's it. I'm all CSS'ed out.

138 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:06:04pm

re: #134 SpaceJesus

That's not very loving... I'm only saying this because you're SpaceJesus, Dude.

139 irish rose  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:07:01pm

Goodnight, folks.... Nollaig Shona Daoibh!

Leaving you all with a favorite Christmas quote:

“I am not alone at all, I thought. I was never alone at all. And that, of course, is the message of Christmas. We are never alone. Not when the night is darkest, the wind coldest, the world seemingly most indifferent. For this is still the time God chooses.”
~ Taylor Caldwell

140 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:07:04pm

re: #138 Sharmuta

That's not very loving... I'm only saying this because you're SpaceJesus, Dude.

AND... it's Christmas Eve.

141 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:07:06pm

Good Evening everyone,, I wanted to wish you all a very merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and a happy new year!!

142 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:07:10pm

Hey Irenicum, since you're logged in, a Christmas tune you'll probably like:

143 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:07:23pm

re: #134 SpaceJesus

seeing conservatives lose their minds over this is the best early birthday present ever

some conservatives...get with the program

144 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:08:10pm

re: #133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

General interest (to me)

I've been to the American Real Estate Holy Trinity. I've been to Monticello. I've been to Mount Vernon. I've been to Graceland.

that's more than Paul Simon can say

145 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:08:11pm

I wish Republicans had been involved in the debate. I think they will regret the "strategy" they chose.

146 recusancy  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #136 Varek Raith

Here's some karma! Muhahahaha!
/:)

Holy baby space jesus. He has some bad karma. Was he flagellated or something?

147 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:09:18pm

re: #135 Bagua

That was not my point, which you misunderstood out of ignorance and hostility.

Your own words represent you. I do not. Own them.

148 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:09:24pm

re: #146 recusancy

Holy baby space jesus. He has some bad karma. Was he flagellated or something?

It was near -2000 at one point...:)

149 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:09:28pm

re: #145 Baier

I wish Republicans had been involved in the debate. I think they will regret the "strategy" they chose.

Involved as in vote yes? They were involved, they rejected it. Whether they regret the strategy or not will be revealed over the next couple of elections.

150 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:10:01pm

I have stage III cancer. If I lose my job, I will lose my health insurance and be unable to replace it at any price (once COBRA runs out or I cannot afford it.) This is not the health care bill of my dreams, but it does at least have provisions for pre-existing conditions. I understand and accept that many of you hate it, but bear in mind that there's another point of view.

151 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:10:45pm

re: #145 Baier

I wish Republicans had been involved in the debate. I think they will regret the "strategy" they chose.

Not just this debate- every debate. It's a frickin embarrassment.

152 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:11:09pm

re: #147 allegro

Your own words represent you. I do not. Own them.

Oh be quite fool. You are just being offensive and rude. You do not understand my original point and your are trying to be personally insulting.

153 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:11:10pm

found one...listen to this voice

the King

154 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:11:44pm

re: #150 Jane_in_Colorado

I for one don't hate it. It could have been better (perhaps much better), but in our political system change is hard (and that was intentionally designed into the system.)

I'm glad that you will be able to be helped by the changes.

155 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:11:58pm

re: #142 freetoken

Wow. That's beautiful and haunting. Thank you so much!

156 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:12:05pm

re: #145 Baier

I wish Republicans had been involved in the debate. I think they will regret the "strategy" they chose.

there was no debate with the GOP...none, that's some kind of fantasy

157 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:12:06pm

re: #150 Jane_in_Colorado

I have stage III cancer. If I lose my job, I will lose my health insurance and be unable to replace it at any price (once COBRA runs out or I cannot afford it.) This is not the health care bill of my dreams, but it does at least have provisions for pre-existing conditions. I understand and accept that many of you hate it, but bear in mind that there's another point of view.

May you have a speedy recovery, and continued health care.

158 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #149 Bagua

Involved as in vote yes? They were involved, they rejected it. Whether they regret the strategy or not will be revealed over the next couple of elections.


So, the republican strategy was to win elections by not fixing the problem? I find that morally repulsive.

159 CapeCoddah  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:12:17pm

re: #150 Jane_in_Colorado

Hi Jane, I am sorry you are ill, and hope you get well. Don't you think it would have been an easy thing for congress to draft simple legislation making it illegal to exempt anyone for a pre-existing condition?

160 recusancy  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:12:17pm

re: #147 allegro

Your own words represent you. I do not. Own them.

Let it be. He/she's not the empathetic type. Some aren't.

161 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:13:40pm

Merry Christmas to all!
The jewelry biz gets positively weird these last few days, and I'm glad to have a break.
Great dinner with dad last night, he's 82 and still smarter than I am. :)
Wife just loves her new Ipod Touch.
Life is good.
Happy New Year!

162 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:14:03pm

re: #92 albusteve

the King
[Video]


These days, The King would be in some state's database.

/happens to be my favorite Elvis song

163 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:14:05pm

re: #145 Baier

I wish Republicans had been involved in the debate. I think they will regret the "strategy" they chose.

I suspect you're right. Even if they ended up opposing the bill in the end I would have liked to see an honest and rational debate on the issue. This is pretty important stuff and it was a bummer to see only one side trying to get something done.

164 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:14:41pm

re: #155 Irenicum

You're welcome. I agree with you, it is one of the few Christmas hymns that is worth the listen. Another other is O Holy Night, but so many singers mess that one up, first because they can't really handle it, secondly because many of the better singers don't do it with conviction.

Here is one guy who did it right IMO:

165 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:15:08pm

re: #109 palomino

How is there any less constitutional authority for this than social security or medicare? Ever since the Supreme Court gave an expansive interpretation of the interstate commerce clause a half century ago, legislation like this has generally been upheld. Not too likely that federal courts will strike this down, particularly the parts that regulate insurance cos.

Well, you've got a point. There seems to be no constitutional limit to federal activity any longer. Still, just because the Constitution has been ignored for a couple of generations, there's no reason not to get serious about it again. But it won't happen.

166 Van Helsing  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:15:27pm

Bells
Celtic Woman

And to all, a good night.
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.

167 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:15:41pm

re: #158 Baier

So, the republican strategy was to win elections by not fixing the problem? I find that morally repulsive.

"Fixing the problem" way to frame your point. The Republicans do not agree that there is a "problem" or that a government takeover of health care is "fixing" it.

"Morally repulsive" whatever.

168 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:15:55pm

re: #146 recusancy

Holy baby space jesus. He has some bad karma. Was he flagellated or something?

It's MUCH better than his karma used to be. I think he was -2000 or more, at one point!

169 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:16:27pm

conservative people in this country understand our problems and how to begin to fix them...the GOP has a different agenda and anybody that cannot tell the difference between the two is a partisan hack, part of the problem and not the solution

170 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:17:22pm

re: #167 Bagua

The Republicans do not agree that there is a "problem"

Well, that's a problem.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:17:47pm

re: #150 Jane_in_Colorado

I am totally with you Jane! I just think they could've done it without this GIGANTIC pile of bureaucracy.

172 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:17:48pm

re: #169 albusteve

Well, said, but apparently conservatives are now "morally repulsive" so they must be punished and educated.

173 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:17:59pm

re: #169 albusteve

conservative people in this country understand our problems and how to begin to fix them...the GOP has a different agenda and anybody that cannot tell the difference between the two is a partisan hack, part of the problem and not the solution

The party doesn't represent (Goldwater) conservatives anymore. Where are we to go?

174 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:03pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

I suspect you're right. Even if they ended up opposing the bill in the end I would have liked to see an honest and rational debate on the issue. This is pretty important stuff and it was a bummer to see only one side trying to get something done.

don't be silly...have you listened to Pelosi's own words?, or Reid's?...look it up

175 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:09pm

re: #161 Rightwingconspirator

I hope it was a VERY profitable "wierd" for you!
And a Merry Christmas to you & your family & friends!

176 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:18pm

re: #164 freetoken

Jim Nabors!?!?! Gooollly! I had forgotten how good a voice he has. Actually there was a couple at my old church in NYC and the wife has an amazing voice and when she would sing this hymn, it send shivers down your spine she was so good.

177 recusancy  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:22pm

re: #167 Bagua

"Fixing the problem" way to frame your point. The Republicans do not agree that there is a "problem" or that a government takeover of health care is "fixing" it.

"Morally repulsive" whatever.

Do conservatives believe there is a problem? ie. the right of center folks on this site.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:27pm

re: #150 Jane_in_Colorado

Oh. You just became in my prayers, btw. Sorry.

179 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:29pm

In the spirit of Christmas I decided not to post the comment I just typed out.
Cheers.

180 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:42pm

re: #170 Obdicut

Well, that's a problem.

Yep, exactly, I wrote my #172 while you typed yours.

181 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:51pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The party doesn't represent (Goldwater) conservatives anymore. Where are we to go?

to that saloon right over there ----------->
care to join me?

182 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:18:53pm

re: #159 CapeCoddah

Hi Jane, I am sorry you are ill, and hope you get well. Don't you think it would have been an easy thing for congress to draft simple legislation making it illegal to exempt anyone for a pre-existing condition?

Thank you. The prognosis is somewhere between 50% and 70% survival at 5 years, but compared to my brother, who has pancreatic cancer, that sounds pretty great. Unfortunately, no, I do not think it would have been an easy thing to draft any kind of simple health care legislation, not even on a matter so clearly ethical as pre-existing conditions.

183 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:19:17pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

In the spirit of Christmas I decided not to post the comment I just typed out.
Cheers.

You can do that? Man... I've been gifting you all for weeks!

184 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:19:43pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

Heh.

185 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:19:51pm

re: #176 Irenicum

Yup... Jim had a good voice. He is still alive, but doesn't sing anymore I think. O Holy Night is a tune that just doesn't work if the singer doesn't have their heart into it.

186 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:19:51pm

re: #172 Bagua

Well, said, but apparently conservatives are now "morally repulsive" so they must be punished and educated.

whatever...makes me no difference

187 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:19:55pm

re: #181 albusteve

to that saloon right over there --->
care to join me?

I hope they have nightly two-for-ones.

188 suchislife  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:20:47pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi FBV!
I left you a little note on how I learned to appreciate Dali in the previous thread.

189 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:20:49pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

I hope they have nightly two-for-ones.

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?
(Shameless steal from Mandy)

190 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:20:54pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. You just became in my prayers, btw. Sorry.

Thank you, and I love your screen name. :)

191 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:21:03pm

re: #180 Bagua

What does your 172 have to do with it being a severe problem that (or rather, if) Republicans don't see something severely wroth with health insurance in this country?

192 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:21:32pm

re: #177 recusancy

Do conservatives believe there is a problem? ie. the right of center folks on this site.

Well, I don't speak for either group, just myself. But as I tend to caucus with the center I can give you my opinion.

Everything is a problem, everything can be improved. Increasing bureaucracy can sometimes help, but in general it does more harm than good.

193 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:21:38pm

re: #182 Jane_in_Colorado

Unfortunately, no, I do not think it would have been an easy thing to draft any kind of simple health care legislation, not even on a matter so clearly ethical as pre-existing conditions.

I have to disagree. I think it would have been very easy, and the most ethical, to have done that very thing. My thoughts are with you.

194 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:22:17pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

I hope they have nightly two-for-ones.

cool, I'll call my driver, he's usually busy with the laundry girls so give me a minute

195 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:22:42pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

I suspect you're right. Even if they ended up opposing the bill in the end I would have liked to see an honest and rational debate on the issue. This is pretty important stuff and it was a bummer to see only one side trying to get something done.

Exactly. The thing is going to pass if the Republicans engage or not, so why not put the best foot forward and at least try to get a less partisan bill.

196 Sharmuta  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:23:13pm

re: #194 albusteve

cool, I'll call my driver, he's usually busy with the laundry girls so give me a minute

I hope they have John Mayer in the juke box too.

197 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:23:40pm

re: #82 allegro

I haven't blamed anyone. I do believe that the company, knowing it is serious financial distress as it must have been, should have been honest with its employees before now. To just one day suddenly pull the plug, leaving employees far away from home with no way to get home, sucks the big one and is inexcusable.

I'm sure the decision was made for sound, rational, market reasons. It also sucks.

198 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:23:47pm

re: #172 Bagua

Well, said, but apparently conservatives are now "morally repulsive" so they must be punished and educated.

I said Republicans, not conservatives.

199 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:24:08pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I hope they have John Mayer in the juke box too.

wait...I'll call him too....ever meet John?

200 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:24:18pm

re: #191 Obdicut

What does your 172 have to do with...

You made my point.

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:24:26pm

re: #146 recusancy

Holy baby space jesus. He has some bad karma. Was he flagellated or something?

The people who were here before the Great Up-And-Leaving didn't have very good senses of humor.

202 andres  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:24:48pm

Merry Christmas to everyone!

re: #3 Racer X

The CBO has a slightly different view on the latest version.

re: #26 The Curmudgeon

Well, that leftist guy in the Supreme Court, Antonin Scalia, disagrees with you.

/

re: #29 Racer X

The claim has no real, actual basis. All real constitutional scholars agree that it's constitutional, even someone as to the right as Scalia.

203 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:25:11pm

re: #200 Bagua

In what way? You're being rather obtuse.

204 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:25:19pm

re: #195 Baier

I think it would have been good strategy if some Republicans had voted for it anyways. There's a decent chance that it will help a lot of people and Republicans are going to need politicians not associated with the Tea Parties if they're going to win future elections. This was putting all their eggs in one basket.

205 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:25:41pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

The people who were here before the Great Up-And-Leaving didn't have very good senses of humor.

I find sometimes I upding SpaceJesus; sometimes I downding him.
Has less to do with my sense of humor than with what he says, which is on occasion, way wrong, imo.

206 Irenicum  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:26:04pm

I may be back later. Not sure right now. I'm gonna head out early tomorrow morning for Mich. and it'll take all day. I had hoped to go either yesterday or today, but the weather wasn't exactly cooperative. For you praying types I'd appreciate some for a safe journey. I can't wait to see everybody back home. Merry Christmas y'all! (and thanks a bunch Freetoken! Love the music)

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:26:17pm

re: #188 suchislife

That is one of the cooler things I have ever seen...

208 recusancy  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:26:37pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

I think it would have been good strategy if some Republicans had voted for it anyways. There's a decent chance that it will help a lot of people and Republicans are going to need politicians not associated with the Tea Parties if they're going to win future elections. This was putting all their eggs in one basket.

They would have been tea bagged to death in a primary scozzaffava style.

209 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:27:03pm

re: #206 Irenicum

Have a safe trip & A VERY Merry Christmas!

210 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:27:27pm

re: #195 Baier

Exactly. The thing is going to pass if the Republicans engage or not, so why not put the best foot forward and at least try to get a less partisan bill.

if you check the record you will undoubtedly find numerous proposals and amendments blown off by Pelosi, then Reid...it's a donk bill and they don't want any bipartisanship...where do you guys come up with that shit?....prove what you say when you accuse the GOP of rolling over....this is a terrible bill and now the donks want some cover, so blame it on the GOP....that's just bullshit

211 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:27:46pm

re: #133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

General interest (to me)

I've been to the American Real Estate Holy Trinity. I've been to Monticello. I've been to Mount Vernon. I've been to Graceland.

I've benn to Hollywood, I've been to Redwood, I've crossed the ocean...

212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:28:20pm

re: #211 Decatur Deb

I've benn to Hollywood, I've been to Redwood, I've crossed the ocean for a heart of gold...

213 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:28:40pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

The people who were here before the Great Up-And-Leaving didn't have very good senses of humor.

what?...you must be kidding, by far it's the other way around imo

214 Virginia Plain  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:28:46pm

Andrea Bocelli-Angels we have heard on high, in the original latin:

215 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:28:56pm

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I saw some of Monet's Waterlily paintings at L'Orangerie in Paris.
I had no idea ther were 10 feet tall by 25 feet wide!
HUGE! It really changed the way I thought of art.

216 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:29:48pm

re: #215 Floral Giraffe

I saw some of Monet's Waterlily paintings at L'Orangerie in Paris.
I had no idea ther were 10 feet tall by 25 feet wide!
HUGE! It really changed the way I thought of art.

I think he was going blind at the time--that's why they're so huge.

217 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:30:48pm

re: #203 Obdicut

In what way? You're being rather obtuse.

Rather obtuse? :)

OK, that's funny so I'll answer.

Your comment supported my comment that the Democrats view the Republicans as not understanding the issue and thus needing education.

218 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:32:12pm

re: #146 recusancy

Holy baby space jesus. He has some bad karma. Was he flagellated or something?

And let that be an example to you.

219 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:32:36pm

re: #217 Bagua

Your comment supported my comment that the Democrats view the Republicans as not understanding the issue and thus needing education.


Well, yes, if the Republicans really do think there isn't a problem with health insurance in this country, they do need education. I don't actually think that's true, I think pretty much everyone acknowledges there's a problem-- especially after this years obvious gouge by the companies before the bill. But it is, after all, what you said.

Do you think there isn't a problem with health insurance in this country?

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:33:32pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

I find sometimes I upding SpaceJesus; sometimes I downding him.
Has less to do with my sense of humor than with what he says, which is on occasion, way wrong, imo.

Yeah, but negative 2000 worth? He's not that bad. A bit of a rabble-rouser. It goes with being Jesus.

221 suchislife  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:33:52pm

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Isn't it? I thought it a little sad how in a movie or music thread, everybody shares and it's fun, but in this first (?? for me at LGF) art thread, the community really split and fought. I've been thinking a bit about why that is and how one might avoid it.

222 albusteve  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:34:55pm

re: #221 suchislife

Isn't it? I thought it a little sad how in a movie or music thread, everybody shares and it's fun, but in this first (?? for me at LGF) art thread, the community really split and fought. I've been thinking a bit about why that is and how one might avoid it.

Xmas Eve used to be fun...people wreck it

223 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:35:06pm

re: #206 Irenicum

Vaya con Dios.

224 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:35:39pm

re: #221 suchislife

Isn't it? I thought it a little sad how in a movie or music thread, everybody shares and it's fun, but in this first (?? for me at LGF) art thread, the community really split and fought. I've been thinking a bit about why that is and how one might avoid it.

You don't get on the thread... that'll work.

225 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:36:21pm

re: #210 albusteve

if you check the record you will undoubtedly find numerous proposals and amendments blown off by Pelosi, then Reid...it's a donk bill and they don't want any bipartisanship...where do you guys come up with that shit?...prove what you say when you accuse the GOP of rolling over...this is a terrible bill and now the donks want some cover, so blame it on the GOP...that's just bullshit

The bill passed 60-39 without a single line of GOP input. That's all the proof I need.
Republicans made a choice to not engage, they did not.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:36:39pm

re: #214 Virginia Plain

Andrea Bocelli-Angels we have heard on high, in the original latin:

[Video]

Ohhhh.

But it still sounds better being sung by a bunch of folks who can't carry a tune in a little San Francisco church, I gotta say.

But that's a close second.

227 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:37:43pm

re: #225 Baier

The bill passed 60-39 without a single line of GOP input. That's all the proof I need.
Republicans made a choice to not engage, they did not.

And it's driving you crazy that you will have to take responsibility for this hook, line and sinker... embrace it and feel the love. 2010 is going to be a bloodbath.

228 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:38:11pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Well, yes, if the Republicans really do think there isn't a problem with health insurance in this country, they do need education. [...]

Yep, there it is again. Glad you clocked on. That is the sort of superior attitude I now see emanating from the left, intellectual and moral superiority. And the other side is too ignorant and immoral to even know that there is a problem. Thus they need to be educated and informed.

In fact, the Republicans see the issues and the problems and understand them as well as the Democrats, they disagree on the proposed "solutions".

Anyhow, why the worry? Your side won this one.

229 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:38:23pm

re: #134 SpaceJesus

seeing conservatives lose their minds over this is the best early birthday present ever

Have a downding for old-time's sake.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:39:17pm

re: #228 Bagua

Yep, there it is again. Glad you clocked on. That is the sort of superior attitude I now see emanating from the left, intellectual and moral superiority. And the other side is too ignorant and immoral to even know that there is a problem. Thus they need to be educated and informed.

In fact, the Republicans see the issues and the problems and understand them as well as the Democrats, they disagree on the proposed "solutions".

Anyhow, why the worry? Your side won this one.

The exact same superior attitude emanates from the right. People who don't agree with you and think you don't 'get it' normally come across as snobby jerks. Human nature, that.

231 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:39:36pm

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

Have a downding for old-time's sake.

But, that's what he wants! Which is why I upding his posts.
:evilgrin:

232 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:39:37pm

re: #212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #211 Decatur Deb

I've benn to Hollywood, I've been to Redwood, I've crossed the ocean for a heart of gold.../blockquote>

And I've seen the needle and the damage done....

233 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:39:41pm

re: #228 Bagua

In fact, the Republicans see the issues and the problems and understand them as well as the Democrats...

Yet, we saw no action during Republican rule. Why not?

234 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:39:44pm

re: #225 Baier

The bill passed 60-39 without a single line of GOP input. That's all the proof I need.
Republicans made a choice to not engage, they did not.

Define "input"?

They voted no, a resounding no, that is engaging.

235 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:40:46pm

re: #233 allegro

gaze

236 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:41:39pm

re: #235 Bagua

re: #233 allegro

gaze

So clever. Yet, no response.

237 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:42:04pm

re: #234 Bagua

Define "input"?

They voted no, a resounding no, that is engaging.

No. You're wrong. No.

238 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:42:05pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Ohhh.

But it still sounds better being sung by a bunch of folks who can't carry a tune in a little San Francisco church, I gotta say.

But that's a close second.

I keep pushing "A Christmas Without Snow" for that reason.

239 suchislife  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:42:41pm

re: #221 suchislife

Though I certainly won't go into it today. But if anyone wants to show me something artsy they liked, I'd certainly see that as a christmas present.
I liked this, but it's probably only funny if one knows Herzog.

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:42:44pm

re: #216 Jane_in_Colorado

I think he was going blind at the time--that's why they're so huge.

Like Beethoven going blind. O. Henry couldn't write that irony.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:43:20pm

re: #240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Like Beethoven going blind. O. Henry couldn't write that irony.

Didn't Beethoven go deaf?

242 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:43:37pm

re: #233 allegro

Yet, we saw no action during Republican rule. Why not?

You're correct, the Republicans have done little for health care reform in any sort of way over the years.

But, that is all moot now. The party in power have reconciled all that. They have taken up the banner and ran, and they won, both in the last election and in particular, in health care.

Are you as happy as I am about this?

243 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:44:33pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't Beethoven go deaf?

It was Mozart who had a club foot.

244 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:44:50pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

The exact same superior attitude emanates from the right. People who don't agree with you and think you don't 'get it' normally come across as snobby jerks. Human nature, that.

Of course there are faults on all sides, most of us are indeed human. (spacejesus and myself notable exceptions)

But this attitude I do perceive more on the Left in the US, in the UK it includes the so called conservatives. If the voters reject something it's not the will of the people, rather, it was a failure to get the message across by the intellectual elites in politics, the MSM and so on. So they keep pushing until they get the "right" vote.

245 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:45:26pm

re: #236 allegro

So clever. Yet, no response.

No, you were vile and insulting, thus you get ignored.

246 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:45:52pm

re: #235 Bagua

re: #236 allegro

Knock it off.

247 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:02pm

re: #243 ryannon

It was Mozart who had a club foot.

Bacon, turkey, and foot? Gross. How did they stick those toothpicks in?

248 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:09pm

re: #244 Bagua

Of course there are faults on all sides, most of us are indeed human. (spacejesus and myself notable exceptions)

But this attitude I do perceive more on the Left in the US, in the UK it includes the so called conservatives. If the voters reject something it's not the will of the people, rather, it was a failure to get the message across by the intellectual elites in politics, the MSM and so on. So they keep pushing until they get the "right" vote.

And the left finally got the right vote this time. It's a wonderful Christmas gift and the left should be very happy.

249 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:25pm

And J.S. Bach was born with seven fingers on one hand. It was hard to ignore that.

250 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:33pm

re: #246 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #236 allegro

Knock it off.

I did not call him an asshole.

251 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:36pm

re: #239 suchislife

But if anyone wants to show me something artsy they liked, I'd certainly see that as a christmas present.


Well, this is not video, but photography: One of the photographers of the 20th century whose artwork is being appreciated more as time goes by is Josef Sudek:

Josef Sudek Photographs

252 Bear  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:46:40pm

Without offending anyone, may I wish all a
MERRY CHRISTMAS
and hope that Santa leaves each one a HUGE Bag of GOOD HEALTH.

Bear

253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:47:00pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't Beethoven go deaf?

TOTALLY WHAT I MEANT! CRAP!

"DID WE QUIT WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?!"

254 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:47:34pm

re: #250 Bagua

I did not call him an asshole.

Even so, drop it. These sorts of verbal gunfights don't accomplish anything.

255 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:47:37pm

re: #247 Baier

Bacon, turkey, and foot? Gross. How did they stick those toothpicks in?

They were ivory toothpicks. It was a very elegant century.

256 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:48:14pm

re: #237 Baier

No. You're wrong. No.

Right, I get it that you believe voting no was the wrong vote. Whatever, you won, be happy. It's not necessary to also insist that those who cast the losing votes are also immoral and wrong.

257 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:48:23pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

Are you as happy as I am about this?

Honestly, no. I am entirely torn with the Senate bill being proposed. I see it MAYBE helping some but mostly as a give-away to heath insurance providers. More corporate welfare. It is not the health care reform that the people need.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:49:12pm

re: #253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

TOTALLY WHAT I MEANT! CRAP!

"DID WE QUIT WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?!"

NO! WE DID NOT!

LOL

259 Varek Raith  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:49:17pm

re: #253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

TOTALLY WHAT I MEANT! CRAP!

"DID WE QUIT WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?!"

YES, AFTER THE WRIGHT BROTHERS WON US THE CIVIL WAR WITH THEIR STEAM POWERED PEW PEW LAZER!
///:)

260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:49:19pm

re: #240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

SOOO embarrassed!

261 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:49:34pm

re: #256 Bagua

Right, I get it that you believe voting no was the wrong vote. Whatever, you won, be happy. It's not necessary to also insist that those who cast the losing votes are also immoral and wrong.


No.
and you are an asshole.

262 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:49:50pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

Even so, drop it. These sorts of verbal gunfights don't accomplish anything.

Right, thanks for the support. I said not one ugly word to someone who calls me asshole twice. Now I want to ignore him and I should drop it?

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:04pm

re: #252 Bear

We're gonna fuckin' need it.

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:12pm

re: #255 ryannon

They were ivory toothpicks. It was a very elegant century.

The toothpicks were sold off after his death to pay off the creditors.

Poor bastard. Think how much better history would have been if Marie Antoinette had accepted his marriage proposal when they were both kids.

265 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:27pm

re: #257 allegro

Honestly, no. I am entirely torn with the Senate bill being proposed. I see it MAYBE helping some but mostly as a give-away to heath insurance providers. More corporate welfare. It is not the health care reform that the people need.

Then the GOP was very smart in not voting for these handouts and this obvious pork. Unfortunately it's probably going to become law, much the way it is.

266 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:42pm

re: #228 Bagua

But that's not what I said. You're distorting it just to attack me. I said IF the Republicans do not see a problem, then that's a problem. I also said that I was certain that they did see a problem, and you were wrong. IF. Important word, which you have to ignore in order to attack me.

267 badger1970  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:46pm

re: #249 ryannon

What?

268 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:50pm

re: #261 Baier

No.
and you are an asshole.

Aren't you sweet. Merry Christmas to you as well.

269 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:50:54pm

re: #261 Baier

No.
and you are an asshole.

A Zionist honco asshole?

Welcome to the club!

270 andres  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:51:06pm

re: #149 Bagua

In actual debating, and working in good faith. They went on denial, and only contributed misinformation.

271 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:51:25pm

re: #261 Baier

No.
and you are an asshole.

Wait a second. You're not happy with this accomplishment?

272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:51:41pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

NO! WE DID NOT!

LOL

"Forget it, he's rolling."

273 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:52:13pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

Walter, do you know what the political fallout-- as in, how it affected voting for the major parties-- was for social security and for Medicare?

274 Baier  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:52:23pm

re: #266 Obdicut

But that's not what I said. You're distorting it just to attack me. I said IF the Republicans do not see a problem, then that's a problem. I also said that I was certain that they did see a problem, and you were wrong. IF. Important word, which you have to ignore in order to attack me.

He's told me I attacked conservatives (I did not) and that I'm on the left (I'm not). He just imposes values on you, and then attacks you for what he imagines you to be.

275 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:52:36pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second. You're not happy with this accomplishment?

No, they also have to have their triumphalism. Rub it in, denounce the other side as bad people.

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:52:46pm

There's a legend that a man at some church heard an unearthly music that could not have been played by human hands coming from the organ, rushed in to see what was happening, and found Handel sitting at the keyboard.

"No mere ten fingers could have played those notes!" the man gasped.

"That's true," Handel told him. "I had to hit some of them with my nose."

277 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:53:05pm

re: #270 andres

In actual debating, and working in good faith. They went on denial, and only contributed misinformation.

But evidently that misinformation didn't prevent the Senate from voting to pass the bill. The Republicans are dorks. All their efforts to try to prevent this bill from passing was all in vain.

Good deal.

278 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:53:29pm

re: #274 Baier

I didn't remember you being on the 'left'. That was kind of confusing me.

279 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:53:50pm

re: #266 Obdicut

Attacking you? Chill, I was chatting with you.

280 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:54:40pm

re: #275 Bagua

No, they also have to have their triumphalism. Rub it in, denounce the other side as bad people.

The Republicans did try to prevent this bill from passing and they failed. They put out all that information at the town halls, all the stuff about death panel, all that nonsense, and it didn't work. The people's will was done and the left won.

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:55:31pm

re: #280 Walter L. Newton

The people's will was done and the left won.

my ass hurts already.

282 ryannon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:55:34pm

re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist

The toothpicks were sold off after his death to pay off the creditors.

Poor bastard. Think how much better history would have been if Marie Antoinette had accepted his marriage proposal when they were both kids.

They kept seeing each other in secret after she got involved with Louis, and she actually passed off one of his kids as the King's. Ludwig subsequently fled the country during Revolution and wound up in England where he started a new life in Liverpool as an ordinary citizen. It's a little-known fact, but Ringo Starr is directly descended from him.

283 Scriptorium  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:55:40pm

My niece is coming to New Zealand from New York to get a diagnosis for something fairly serious she thinks she may have and needs to know if she has it. If she gets the diagnosis in the States she's convinced she won't get health insurance once she (hopefully) gets her new job. That's sad.

With Jane, I don't think passing a simple law about pre-existing condition coverage would have been easy. Look at the hold insurers have over legislators (e.g., Lieberman and Nelson). Look at the fear of gov't legislating anything to do with healthcare.

NZ has a mixture of public/private coverage. Most people pay out of pocket at the GPs and purchase some supplemental coverage. The gov't subsidizes low-income folks, and catastrophic problems are all covered through gov't funding from taxes. I haven't seen the walking wounded or heard the heartbreaking tales about inaccessible and denied health care here as is common in the U.S.

And as for the taxes: this is my 3rd year in the country and it seems as prosperous, entrepeneurial, and inventive as the 'real' America. So take heart. This clumsy, compromised attempt at health insurance/care reform will help real people, can be tweaked and improved, and is unlikely to ruin the country.

284 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:56:00pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am totally with you Jane! I just think they could've done it without this GIGANTIC pile of bureaucracy.

But it's my understanding that there's some good in all that bureaucracy--not that I don't agree on general grounds. For instance, there is funding for "efficacy of treatment" studies, which (imo) seriously needs to be done. A lot of cost in the system does not produce better results. It would be good to know what works and what just costs a lot, wouldn't it?

285 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:56:01pm

re: #279 Bagua

Dude, you got called out on your behavior by someone else already. It's pretty apparent. You said, to me:

Yep, there it is again. Glad you clocked on. That is the sort of superior attitude I now see emanating from the left, intellectual and moral superiority.

And in order to do that, you had to pretend I said something I hadn't.

You're not exactly being subtle.

286 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:56:12pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

my ass hurts already.

I think that's covered.

287 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:57:19pm

re: #285 Obdicut

Playing schoolmaster again?

288 suchislife  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:57:34pm

re: #251 freetoken

Thank you, these are lovely, I think they look sort of stylish and yet at the same time, some of them evoke old painting still lives, right? I'll look at some more later.
Did you see a Sudek exhibition?
I recently saw a surrealist photography exhibition. The first "photography" was a flower pot floating in space. Made me laugh. Haha, I just accidentally typed love instead of laugh!

289 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:00:00pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

my ass hurts already.

Got butthurt?

/filling in for iceweasel

290 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:00:55pm

re: #287 Bagua

I'm going to stop engaging with you now.

291 Bagua  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:01:58pm

re: #290 Obdicut

I'm going to stop engaging with you now.

Good news.

292 huggy77  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:03:13pm
Do conservatives believe there is a problem? ie. the right of center folks on this site.

There are definite problems with the system... I think the government would probably make problems worse. I cant picture them doing a better job with this than with social security.

i would like to see the state to state restrictions lifted to increase competition...
I like the idea of tort reform...
I like idea of pooling small business together to lower there cost...
Do a better job of tracking and prosecuting those who abuse the system.

293 allegro  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:04:09pm

re: #283 Scriptorium

If she gets the diagnosis in the States she's convinced she won't get health insurance once she (hopefully) gets her new job. That's sad.

It's beyond sad. It's WRONG. To think that one can't be employable due to a health condition that can be treated is... beyond my capability of words. Yet, it is a reality of US insurability standards. The insurance companies are holding us all hostage to our ability to make them profits.

294 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:06:00pm

re: #288 suchislife

I've never been able to see a Sudek photo in person, only reproductions. In my own photography I've wanted to be more influenced by Sudek, but alas, large format photography is a pain and I don't have the where with all to do much of it these days.

Sudek was an interesting person, worked with a disability, and should be an inspiration to many.

We've sometimes discussed photography here late at night... there are some knowledgeable people here. I've become rather dismissive of contemporary photography, so I've definitely got an attitude about it.

295 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:07:13pm

re: #283 Scriptorium

Amen to your post. This bill is the beginning, not the end. Some things about it will be stupid--those things can be corrected down the road. Some US health insurance companies have behaved despicably, but mine has not. I'd like to see us rewarding the good ones and punishing the bad ones. Whether we can do that without a public alternative isn't clear, but... American businesses are very adaptable.

296 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:18:12pm

dear ole Mitch Mac is now complaining this Bill doesn't do what it's supposed to by not reducing costs.........

Dear Mitch - please grant me my christmas wish and STFU or try to contribute something..........


kthnbye

297 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:29:51pm

I would like to recommend this excellent Atul Gawande piece in the New Yorker about health care reform: Your text to link...

He knows it will not be easy to get from where we are to a place we want to be, but he gives me hope that we can do it. He cites, among other examples, how we got hopelessly out-dated telephone switching networks, to (for instance) support such things as 911 calls.

Have faith in yourselves and your country. We can make it better.

298 Scriptorium  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:30:47pm

re: #295 Jane_in_Colorado

Amen to your post. This bill is the beginning, not the end. Some things about it will be stupid--those things can be corrected down the road. Some US health insurance companies have behaved despicably, but mine has not. I'd like to see us rewarding the good ones and punishing the bad ones. Whether we can do that without a public alternative isn't clear, but... American businesses are very adaptable.

I'd upding you if I had enough posts to qualify to do so! Predictability is pretty important to business (and in general!), and hopefully things will sort out into some semblance of it.

The general civic debate might be more productive and certainly cooler if we started without assumptions of motivation. Those assuming leaders are acting in good faith have a very different take on bill specifics than those who believe the opposite. Admittedly, this is common sense.

What I like most about this site (that I recently joined!) are the many posters who take a pragmatic, clear-eyed look at what's actually on the table vs. whether or not someone is a 'douchebag' (hate that term; really really hate it).

299 suchislife  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:31:49pm

re: #294 freetoken

In my own photography I've wanted to be more influenced by Sudek, but alas, large format photography is a pain and I don't have the where with all to do much of it these days.

We've sometimes discussed photography here late at night... there are some knowledgeable people here. I've become rather dismissive of contemporary photography, so I've definitely got an attitude about it.

Do you ever link to your photography or do you prefer to keep that separate?

300 Scriptorium  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:34:35pm

Why am I posting on Christmas???
Especially when the garden is full of butterflies and the beach is 5 minutes away??
Ah, life in the Antipodes.

301 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:36:49pm

We are have having straight line winds full of ice and snow!
Merry Christmas Eve, Lizards!

302 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:37:21pm

re: #297 Jane_in_Colorado

I love Gawande. Have you read this other article by Gawande on the costs of health care? It's a good article-- especially for dispelling the 'tort reform' meme.


Comparison of health care costs

303 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:39:15pm

re: #302 Obdicut

I love Gawande. Have you read this other article by Gawande on the costs of health care? It's a good article-- especially for dispelling the 'tort reform' meme.

Comparison of health care costs

I have read it. I love the guy. For my money, he is speaking the most sense about health care in America today.

304 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:40:45pm

re: #301 prairiefire

We are have having straight line winds full of ice and snow!
Merry Christmas Eve, Lizards!

Here is Chicago, all we got today was a cold rain.

305 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:44:38pm

re: #304 Dark_Falcon

re: #304 Dark_Falcon

Here is Chicago, all we got today was a cold rain.

You were luckier than us, for once!

306 Jane_in_Colorado  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:46:32pm

We have about 2 feet of snow on the ground in southwest Colorado, but it's supposed to be clear through the weekend. Much nicer than icy rain.

307 freetoken  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:46:39pm

re: #299 suchislife

Do you ever link to your photography or do you prefer to keep that separate?

Here I am and always shall be anonymous.

Besides, none of my photography is worth the effort of pimping it (to a serious art crowd.)

308 pharmmajor  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 7:08:05pm

re: #54 golgoth

Dont be a Paultard, this is not unstandard procedure in today's politics.

No offense, but that is uncalled for.

309 krypto  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 9:17:21pm

re: #193 allegro

One thing to consider is that while insurance companies abuse the pre-existing condition exclusion, there is one valid reason why they need to be able to engage in that kind of practice. There are many people who decide to take their chances by not being insured when they feel healthy, and try to sign up for insurance only to pay their bills when they get seriously ill. Insurance companies need to protect themselves financially from that practice, and refusing to cover pre-existing conditions as well as rescinding policies obtained by lying about previous health conditions are their means of doing it.

That makes it not so simple to just pass a law that only forbids pre-existing condition exclusions.

But once they are carrying out those practices, and the insurance companies are the ones making the decisions, the profit motive pushes them in the direction of abusing the practices in order to increase profits by avoiding payment of legitimate claims.

The solution is require everyone, or just about everyone, to have health insurance in the first place, and then help people to get insurance so they can comply. Under those circumstances, there is no legitimate need for insurance companies to use pre-existing condition exclusions, since very few individuals would be skipping insurance until they get ill, and it does become simpler to just forbid all pre-existing condition exclusions or discrimination. That of course is what the health care reform bill does, among other things. But it is the solution you apparently are arguing against.

310 jayzee  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 3:52:57am

Up early here so I wanted to drop in a say Merry Christmas to you guys.

Here are some of my thoughts on health care reform. Regardless of the horror stories shard by some, the truth is, for the insured in America, we have excellent albeit expensive health care. We get what we need when we want it. Your local hospital has MRIs and your physician's can take throat cultures. Our doctors and hospitals go to extremes to extend and save life. For the insured, we do have the best care in the world. A total reform of the health care system is not in order. I feel we could address the pre-existing and insurance portability without such a major overhall.

311 jordash1212  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 8:18:03am

Why isn't forcing insurance companies to spend money to cover their clients instead of finding ways to void their contract not useful?

312 krypto  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 9:32:56am

re: #310 jayzee

Up early here so I wanted to drop in a say Merry Christmas to you guys.

Here are some of my thoughts on health care reform. Regardless of the horror stories shard by some, the truth is, for the insured in America, we have excellent albeit expensive health care. We get what we need when we want it. Your local hospital has MRIs and your physician's can take throat cultures. Our doctors and hospitals go to extremes to extend and save life. For the insured, we do have the best care in the world. A total reform of the health care system is not in order. I feel we could address the pre-existing and insurance portability without such a major overhall.


re: #310 jayzee

I would also like to believe that the everything about the US is the best in the world.

But I doubt that is is really true about health care even for those with insurance. Although most people at any given time have not yet seen what can happen when they get ill in a way that will cost their insurance company too much, it is not at all unusual when illness does strike to end up fighting not only illness but an insurance company to get them to actually pay the bills. As often pointed out, most bankruptcies in the US involve medical costs as a factor, and something like 70% of the individuals involved actually had health insurance. And then there are insurance company practices involving pre-existing conditions and rescission that deny meaningful insurance precisely to those who have the greatest need.

The real problem however is not just the insured, but how everyone in the US receives health care. As appealing as it is to believe the US has the best health care in the world, that's not supported by objective studies comparing health care in various countries.

Some of the studies compare hard statistical data for various quantities that can be objectively calculated, such as the per capita number of medically preventable deaths not prevented by timely medical care. In one well-known study some years ago by the World Health Organization, the United States ranked 37th, behind every other industrialized nation of the world in overall health care quality. (Of course, just what to evaluate and how to weigh each factor complicates the interpretation of the results.)

The Commonwealth Foundation, based on its evaluation of health care systems, concludes, "Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries."

and

"Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes. The inclusion of physician survey data also shows the U.S. lagging in adoption of information technology and use of nurses to improve care coordination for the chronically ill."

[Link: www.commonwealthfund.org...]

Which country is best actually depends on what aspect of health care is being considered. The US has excellent medical research programs, perhaps the best in the world, and excellent hospitals. It is verifiably terrible in many crucial aspects of actually providing health care to its general population. Better than places like Zimbabwe, but not better than other industrialized nations.

And we really do need health care reform to deal with the problems and deficiencies that our system has, while hopefully retaining its high quality where it excels.

313 jayzee  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 10:07:14am

re: #312 krypto

The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes.

Which was my point. We skew down because of this, but our service is superior. I've lived in countries with universal health care and we are superior.

Here are the questions (pdf link) which are refered to in the link you gave. I couldn't find wait time for non elective surgeries however.

One interesting side note, the efficiency section condemns the US for not using electronic data collections. That is changing with new requirements coming into place, and forced my child's pediatrician into retirement due to the costs involved in IT compliance. Ironically, he was always available early morning, nights and weekends.

314 CommonMan  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 12:50:10pm

With this bill enacted it will be even harder to do a real health care reform whenever someone might want to do that in the future.


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