Passengers Took Security Into Their Own Hands

US News • Views: 3,148

The New York Times has a story on the scene aboard Northwest flight 253, as passengers acted quickly to avert disaster.

During 19 hours of travel, aboard two flights across three continents, law enforcement officials said, Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab bided his time. Then, just as Northwest Flight 253 finally began its final approach to Detroit around noon on Friday, he tried to ignite the incendiary powder mixture he had taped to his leg, they said.

There were popping sounds, smoke and a commotion as passengers cried out in alarm and tried to see what was happening.

And then history repeated itself. Just as occurred before Christmas in 2001 when Richard C. Reid tried to ignite the plastic explosives hidden in his shoe on a trans-Atlantic flight, fellow passengers jumped on Mr. Abdulmutallab, restraining the 23-year-old Nigerian. Crew members poured bottled water on the flames, snuffing out the sparks of what could have been a planewide conflagration. …

Mr. Abdulmutallab, who was sitting on the left side of the aircraft, may not have been trying to blow up the plane, but possibly intended to cause a fire to distract the cabin crew, cause passengers to panic and create a stampede for the exits as the plane was landing, a senior airline industry official who had been briefed on the situation said Saturday.

One passenger who was sitting in the same row as Mr. Abdulmutallab, but on the right side of the plane, apparently hurled himself across a middle row of four seats to tackle him. The passenger who hurtled across the aisle was Jasper Schuringa, a filmmaker from Amsterdam, a friend of Mr. Schuringa said Saturday. A senior airline executive said that flight attendants also jumped in.

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261 comments
1 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:18:18am

Terrorism only works when we continue to fear it. When we, as individuals, fight back, we win. Had everyone cowered away from the man, he might have done real damage to more than himself.

2 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:18:44am

Good for him...We walk among Hero's on a daily basis

3 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:21:55am

My suspicion is that "passenger participation" is going to be the rule whenever some nutjob decides to do something stupid in the air. I would hope that any would-be terrorists would realize this and not even bother to try.

4 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:23:34am

Bet the guy with the flaming loins wasn't even Mirandized before the fire was put out. (idea for some dark humor cartooning)

5 William of Orange  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:24:55am

Hurrah!! It's a Dutchman!

Meanwhile, here's a clear picture of the culprit.

[Link: www.thetimesofnigeria.com...]

6 metrolibertarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:25:31am

re: #3 John Neverbend

My suspicion is that "passenger participation" is going to be the rule whenever some nutjob decides to do something stupid in the air. I would hope that any would-be terrorists would realize this and not even bother to try.

People of this lunatic's mindset believe that death for them is a reward, regardless of whether the attack is successful, they are martyrs for their non-existent invisible friend and his brothel in heaven. So even if would-be-terrorists had the moment of clarity that the plane isn't going to be filled with pussies who'll lie back and take it, they're still going to continue to attempt their mile-high murders.

7 William of Orange  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:26:14am

re: #4 abolitionist

Bet the guy with the flaming loins wasn't even Mirandized before the fire was put out. (idea for some dark humor cartooning)

Indeed, if my loins were on fire, the last thing I would do is remain silence...

8 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:26:21am

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

9 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:27:07am

re: #3 John Neverbend

My suspicion is that "passenger participation" is going to be the rule whenever some nutjob decides to do something stupid in the air. I would hope that any would-be terrorists would realize this and not even bother to try.

Hell, yes. For decades, people simply sat in their seats during hijacking attempts, because they knew it would end safely; violence and personal harm were extremely rare outcomes. Al Qaida counted on this complacency on 9/11, and it worked to their advantage.

Once. From then on, passenger's outlooks changed completely. If you acquiesce to terrorist demands, you will absolutely die, with 100% certainty. Fight back, and the same may happen, but maybe - just maybe - it won't. Al Qaida removed all reasons for remaining docile, and provided a strong incentive to fight back.

If I'm on a plane and somebody starts waving a gun around, fiddling with matches or in any looks like they're trying to take over the plane, I'd be more than willing to take the risk to stop the asshole right then and there. It's now as simple a decision as the previous case of sitting things out: risk assessment now favors acting, by a huge margin.

10 Zathras  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:27:10am

re: #5 William of Orange
"Hurrah!! It's a Dutchman!"

A flying Dutchman, no less:

"One passenger who was sitting in the same row as Mr. Abdulmutallab, but on the right side of the plane, apparently hurled himself across a middle row of four seats to tackle him."

11 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:28:18am

This guy is full of it, and with 3rd degree burns on his legs there is a chance of him dying.

12 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:28:23am

re: #6 metrolibertarian

People of this lunatic's mindset believe that death for them is a reward, regardless of whether the attack is successful, they are martyrs for their non-existent invisible friend and his brothel in heaven. So even if would-be-terrorists had the moment of clarity that the plane isn't going to be filled with pussies who'll lie back and take it, they're still going to continue to attempt their mile-high murders.

I hope you're wrong. But at least, let them sit in an aisle seat. Standing near them in the aisle, I have a fair chance of doing a lot more immediate damage to them stuck in an economy class seat, than they can do to me.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:29:08am

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

Could be, or someone else is BSing him. Or he could just be a low-level test balloon. If it works, bonus. If he gets caught, he knows nothing, and he's totally disposable.

14 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:29:09am

re: #9 SixDegrees

Hell, yes. For decades, people simply sat in their seats during hijacking attempts, because they knew it would end safely; violence and personal harm were extremely rare outcomes. Al Qaida counted on this complacency on 9/11, and it worked to their advantage.

Once. From then on, passenger's outlooks changed completely. If you acquiesce to terrorist demands, you will absolutely die, with 100% certainty. Fight back, and the same may happen, but maybe - just maybe - it won't. Al Qaida removed all reasons for remaining docile, and provided a strong incentive to fight back.

If I'm on a plane and somebody starts waving a gun around, fiddling with matches or in any looks like they're trying to take over the plane, I'd be more than willing to take the risk to stop the asshole right then and there. It's now as simple a decision as the previous case of sitting things out: risk assessment now favors acting, by a huge margin.

Exactly. I had in mind the same evolution of hijackings.

15 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:29:15am

re: #9 SixDegrees

They don't make 'em like D.B. Cooper anymore.

16 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:29:29am

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

Odd - I was just having similar thoughts. It also appears to have been an isolated incidents; an al Qaida trademark is multiple, simultaneous attacks.

There's still a dearth of information, and there are a lot of things being reported that simply don't make a lot of sense, period. I'm still sort of waiting for rational reporting to prevail, but that'll probably take another few days.

17 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:29:57am

re: #6 metrolibertarian

People of this lunatic's mindset believe that death for them is a reward, regardless of whether the attack is successful, they are martyrs for their non-existent invisible friend and his brothel in heaven. So even if would-be-terrorists had the moment of clarity that the plane isn't going to be filled with pussies who'll lie back and take it, they're still going to continue to attempt their mile-high murders.

That does not mean there is a downside to proposing aggressive action by all members of society. It does mean there will be more challenge and variables to accomplishing their goal, which is to kill many other people and create terror.

There goal is not just to merely die: it's to create terror and kill.

18 miguelj  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:30:27am

Reports now say he is the son of a Nigerian banker. Maybe a frustrated phishing scam artist?

19 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:30:32am

re: #6 metrolibertarian

People of this lunatic's mindset believe that death for them is a reward, regardless of whether the attack is successful, they are martyrs for their non-existent invisible friend and his brothel in heaven. So even if would-be-terrorists had the moment of clarity that the plane isn't going to be filled with pussies who'll lie back and take it, they're still going to continue to attempt their mile-high murders.

Exactly. The enemy has his reasons, but they are his reasons, not ours. Glad to see that the spirit of Flight 93 lives on.

20 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:30:46am

re: #8 Charles

I think it was probably al Qaeda wannabes that set him up with the device. There are probably a lot of posers around with a little bit of knowledge about bomb making who claim to be al Qaeda to impress their friends.

21 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:30:57am

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

Could be, or someone else is BSing him. Or he could just be a low-level test balloon. If it works, bonus. If he gets caught, he knows nothing, and he's totally disposable.

or a fire in the cabin would kill everyone...

22 BlackFedora  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:31:11am

Guys, this is obviously a false flag attack by an agent of the New World Order to remind us we still need to fear terrorism. Just ask Webster Tarpley.

/sarcasm

23 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:31:54am

re: #22 BlackFedora

Guys, this is obviously a false flag attack by an agent of the New World Order to remind us we still need to fear terrorism. Just ask Webster Tarpley.

/sarcasm

Predictably, Alex Jones is pushing that angle this morning.

24 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:32:08am

re: #15 JasonA

They don't make 'em like D.B. Cooper anymore.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Cuban hijackings that were once so prevalent, and similar hijackings inspired by them. Stay in your seat, maybe enjoy an authentic Cuba Libre during your unscheduled layover, then go about your business with a thrilling story to tell.

25 metrolibertarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:32:18am

re: #17 BigPapa

That does not mean there is a downside to proposing aggressive action by all members of society. It does mean there will be more challenge and variables to accomplishing their goal, which is to kill many other people and create terror.

There goal is not just to merely die: it's to create terror and kill.

You missed my point entirely. I was pointing out that even if would-be terrorists were fully aware that there are among potential victims some who would fight back, it wouldn't stop them. It has nothing to do with saying we shouldn't be vigilant.

26 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:33:09am

re: #9 SixDegrees

Hell, yes. For decades, people simply sat in their seats during hijacking attempts, because they knew it would end safely; violence and personal harm were extremely rare outcomes. Al Qaida counted on this complacency on 9/11, and it worked to their advantage.

And it didn't even last out that morning, as Flight 93's passengers fought back.

One thing I will grant the chi-coms, is that they have always trained their flight crews to aggressively resist any hijacking attempts. We opted for the passive response in the 70s, for fear of someone getting sued hurt.

27 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #20 Killgore Trout

I think it was probably al Qaeda wannabes that set him up with the device. There are probably a lot of posers around with a little bit of knowledge about bomb making who claim to be al Qaeda to impress their friends.

Unfortunately, whoever was responsible now knows what materials will make it through security undetected.

28 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:34:20am

re: #15 JasonA

They don't make 'em like D.B. Cooper anymore.

When God made D.B. Cooper he threw the mould away....fortunately.

29 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:34:42am

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.


I don't think it would be stretching too much to say that he might have been inspired by Al Qaeda, but the bottom line is, he just bought himself a lifetime of free room, board, and medical care. I hope it's a short lifetime and that prison-justice runs its course. Card-carrying pacifist liberal I might be, but people like this are a waste of oxygen.

30 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:35:06am

re: #25 metrolibertarian

You missed my point entirely. I was pointing out that even if would-be terrorists were fully aware that there are among potential victims some who would fight back, it wouldn't stop them. It has nothing to do with saying we shouldn't be vigilant.

It might shift their attention to other venues once they realize that attacks on airliners stand a very good chance of failure.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:35:11am

re: #24 SixDegrees

I was thinking more along the lines of the Cuban hijackings that were once so prevalent, and similar hijackings inspired by them. Stay in your seat, maybe enjoy an authentic Cuba Libre during your unscheduled layover, then go about your business with a thrilling story to tell.

Even the earlier Palestinian operations--Leila Khaled talks about being nervous, because the passenger's safety was in her hands. Times, they sure have effing changed.

32 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:35:14am
33 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:36:30am

re: #25 metrolibertarian

You missed my point entirely. I was pointing out that even if would-be terrorists were fully aware that there are among potential victims some who would fight back, it wouldn't stop them. It has nothing to do with saying we shouldn't be vigilant.

You missed my point: of course it wouldn't stop them from dying. It would cause them to know that they would have a more difficult time pulling off their terrorist acts if citizens reacted immediately and aggressively. This would cause them to rethink.... though yes, they'll still probably do it.

Otherwise, your point is... well, they'll still do it.

34 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:36:47am

re: #28 John Neverbend

When God made D.B. Cooper he threw the mould away...fortunately.

Well, that trick was only going to work once. They even changed the doors because of that guy.

35 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:38:44am

re: #27 SixDegrees

Unfortunately, whoever was responsible now knows what materials will make it through security undetected.

Agreed, they did a little bit of research. Videos for making binary explosives are posted all over the internet and aren't hard to find.

36 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:39:15am

I actually fly that particular flight a few times a year in that the company I am with has offices in Ohio and Rotterdam. At Schipol airport you go through a passport check and then to to your gate. The carry on bag x-ray is done at the individual gates. Also every passenger gets individually questioned by a security person before entering the gate area and once in the gate area you cannot leave. It is the only airport I have been at where there is an armed security person outside by the plane and everyone approaching the plane has to have their credentials checked.

The plane, I believe NW flies an airbus, is a flagship plane for them. Individual movie monitors in each seat where you can select from a list and start and stop them. I love that flight because wheels up to wheels down is six hours rather than the normal nine hours direct from Houston to Amsterdam.

Whether this was a planned AQ attack or simply one idiot will, in my opinion, depend on the chemicals he used. That someone could smuggle on a baggie of gun powder is certainly plausible but not very high tech.

37 BlackFedora  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:40:14am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

LOL. I hadn't even looked. Not surprised though.

38 metrolibertarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #30 SixDegrees

It might shift their attention to other venues once they realize that attacks on airliners stand a very good chance of failure.

Richard Reid's failed attempt to set his shoes on fire because the passengers fucked his shit up (more than whatever skin disease already did) didn't, not sure why this vigilance against some freelancing psychopath would all of sudden bring logic to people whose philosophies include fucking inexperienced girls in heaven as a reward for murder.

39 Vambo  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:41:12am

He flies around the world and decides to cause chaos in DETROIT??? haven't those people suffered enough?!

40 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:41:52am

I don't know enough to say AQ or not yet, but reports have it that he was on a watch list (not a "no fly" list) and if the story from the banker in Nigeria is true, he could have been a known factor.

CBS is also reporting that it was PETN, which is high explosive.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

41 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:42:58am

/of course it's CBS...

42 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:43:25am

Charles.....OT but to pass on to your Amazon contact.....I received a Sony Reader yesterday for x-mas (would have preferred the Kindle, but hey it was a gift). Out of the box, it would not load its software from the device to my computer so I had to download direct from their site. Then, even after all night, it would not charge through the USB. Today I called in to their service. After getting through and explaining the problem, the agent asked for the serial number on back, and then went tap tap on her computer and within seconds informed me that they would send me a new one. So apparently Sony is having production problems.

43 metrolibertarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:44:18am

re: #40 Thanos

I don't know enough to say AQ or not yet, but reports have it that he was on a watch list (not a "no fly" list) and if the story from the banker in Nigeria is true, he could have been a known factor.

CBS is also reporting that it was PETN, which is high explosive.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

It apparently was "one database," and somehow being in this one database isn't sufficient enough to make one a member of the no-fly list.

44 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:45:39am

this scumbag and richard reid both wanted to be caught and (thank G-d) didn't have the balls to really do the dastardly deed. how do i know this? because if they really wanted to be succesful, they'd have gone into the bathroom to do it.

either that, or these two are the stupidest mofos ever. but then again, you really have to be a stupid mofo to think that mass murder gets you 6 dozen virgins in the afterlife.

45 dr. luba  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:47:09am

I fly Amsterdam-Detroit al lot, normally connecting from another city (Kyiv, usually). KLM has its own security at the gate (as noted above); it doesn't matter if you've been screened, you get re-screened in Amsterdam. (Security in much of the non-West is negligible at best.) They question each passenger individually, usual questions....

Once I made the mistake of telling security that my cousin had given me a birthday card to pass along to my mother. I went through additional questioning and inspection--security hell. And the card was in Ukrainian.

They finally decided I was not a risk, and let me through, only to approach me, sheepishly, minutes later to help translate for a non-English speaking passenger.

Mind you, I used to fly from London to Detroit all the time on Pan Am, often through New York. Yes, that flight.

46 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:48:14am

The guy who stopped the terrorist allegedly reported that the terrorist had explosives 'all over him', the incendiary device Charles reports about is believed to be a primary device, designed to set of high explosives.
Here's a newspaper article about the guy, it's in Dutch but I'll try to translate stuff in a minute or so...

47 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:48:32am

Sorry, forgot the link: [Link: www.telegraaf.nl...]

48 Firstinla  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:48:32am

re: #36 Big Steve

The best airport security I've experienced is that in and out of Tel Aviv. The Israelis know their stuff when it comes to preventing such incidents.

49 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:49:09am

re: #40 Thanos

I don't know enough to say AQ or not yet, but reports have it that he was on a watch list (not a "no fly" list) and if the story from the banker in Nigeria is true, he could have been a known factor.

CBS is also reporting that it was PETN, which is high explosive.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

What! In a condom?......not being able to fly to Amsterdam with condoms......that will kill the Rossebuurt.

50 Frogmarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:50:22am

This guy might be acting on his own, but I bet Al-Q is paying attention--
Looking for cracks and fissures in our security system.
If they could find a way to sneak a bomb on broad, using humans, they would do it.

51 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:51:05am

Why does the term "Red Neck Whoop Ass" enter into my head?

52 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:52:11am

re: #48 Firstinla

The best airport security I've experienced is that in and out of Tel Aviv. The Israelis know their stuff when it comes to preventing such incidents.

That's right. I think it's virtually impossible to get past them. Also, I understand that El-Al has on-board "marshals" on every flight (I don't know if they are armed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't).

53 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:52:28am

re: #50 Frogmarch

This guy might be acting on his own, but I bet Al-Q is paying attention--
Looking for cracks and fissures in our security system.
If they could find a way to sneak a bomb on broad, using humans, they would do it.

The bit about this guy being a stalking horse....you watch, that will turn out to be false. AQ's desire is to spread maximum panic. If he was a test he would have been told NOT to detonate. They would not want this method known until they could load up a bunch of planes on the same day.

54 metrolibertarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:53:05am

re: #52 John Neverbend

That's right. I think it's virtually impossible to get past them. Also, I understand that El-Al has on-board "marshals" on every flight (I don't know if they are armed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't).

I am under the impression El Al's air marshals are armed always.

55 Firstinla  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:53:14am

re: #52 John Neverbend

That's right. I think it's virtually impossible to get past them. Also, I understand that El-Al has on-board "marshals" on every flight (I don't know if they are armed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't).

They are.

56 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:53:56am

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

Does it matter?

57 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:55:04am

re: #51 Cannadian Club Akbar

Why does the term "Red Neck Whoop Ass" enter into my head?

Since the guy was Dutch.....the Dutch term for a red neck is a "Klompendans" which means Clog Dancer.

58 soap_man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:55:11am

It's interesting that the airline official said he might not have been trying to blow up the plane.

If he did, that's icing on the cake for them. But their main intent is fear: Get people on the plane to panic and get the public to worry about future incidents. But these passengers and flight attendants are obviously man/woman enough to not panic and take the guy out. Good for them.

59 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #44 _RememberTonyC

this scumbag and richard reid both wanted to be caught and (thank G-d) didn't have the balls to really do the dastardly deed. how do i know this? because if they really wanted to be succesful, they'd have gone into the bathroom to do it.

either that, or these two are the stupidest mofos ever. but then again, you really have to be a stupid mofo to think that mass murder gets you 6 dozen virgins in the afterlife.

The intent is to cause widespread panic and fear.

To "terrorize".

Massive death and carnage is a bonus.

60 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:55:48am

re: #48 Firstinla

The best airport security I've experienced is that in and out of Tel Aviv. The Israelis know their stuff when it comes to preventing such incidents.

Given their status as The Most Desirable Terrorist Target on Earth, the lack of successful hijackings out of Israel is a testament to their security system - which actually starts a long distance away from the airport proper, and funnels passengers through an increasingly intense series of inspections, including psychological profiling and manipulation.

It also changes constantly, as defenses in any arms race require.

61 soap_man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:57:07am

re: #56 Racer X

Does it matter?

Sort of. I he was Al Qaeda, it shows they are planning attacks in America. If he isn't, it shows they are more occupied with playing defense, so to speak. I think it shows what they are up to/planning.

62 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:57:09am

re: #59 Racer X

The intent is to cause widespread panic and fear.

To "terrorize".

Massive death and carnage is a bonus.

I always thought it was the massive death and carnage that CAUSED the panic and fear.

63 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:57:11am

re: #57 Big Steve

Since the guy was Dutch...the Dutch term for a red neck is a "Klompendans" which means Clog Dancer.

I would think an equivalent to Red Neck would be Blue Nose, cuz it's like cold up there.

But what do I know, I live in the middle of an ocean.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:59:59am

re: #61 soap_man
AQ is always planning. Remember, there was 8 years between attacks on NYC.

65 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #61 soap_man

Sort of. I he was Al Qaeda, it shows they are planning attacks in America. If he isn't, it shows they are more occupied with playing defense, so to speak. I think it shows what they are up to/planning.

"Al Qaeda" means what? Do you have to have a membership card? Does someone have to vouch for you to get you in?

I think we have evolved past the "Al Qaeda" label. Any radical muslim with intent to terrorize and kill should be lumped into the same group - regardless of links to Al Qaeda. They are all bad.

66 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:01:03pm

re: #29 darthstar

I don't think it would be stretching too much to say that he might have been inspired by Al Qaeda, but the bottom line is, he just bought himself a lifetime of free room, board, and medical care. I hope it's a short lifetime and that prison-justice runs its course. Card-carrying pacifist liberal I might be, but people like this are a waste of oxygen.

Whether or not he was a card-carrying AQ minion matters mostly to our intelligence services, as to what info they can wring out of him. To the rest of us, he is a jihadist--self-dispatched or not--who tried to "make wide slaughter" among infidels.

67 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:01:52pm

Sorry I can't agree that it doesn't matter if it's AQ or not.

68 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:03:11pm

re: #52 John Neverbend

That's right. I think it's virtually impossible to get past them. Also, I understand that El-Al has on-board "marshals" on every flight (I don't know if they are armed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't).

The idea is to head off the hijacker/bomber before he gets on the flight, not after. The Israelis do a lot of questioning before you get on the flight. A Nigerian with a one way ticket into Israel I guarantee you would not have gotten far. But that's Israel, a small country with a powerful screening process. Israel uses most of their money on these things.

My problem is how did this guy get on this plane, particularly if it's true that he had explosives all over him? I'm thrilled that passengers were aware and able to stop this guy, but how dangerous is that? Why should we be put into this position? The airlines simply must do a better job.

69 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:03:55pm
70 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:04:03pm

re: #65 Racer X

"Al Qaeda" means what? Do you have to have a membership card? Does someone have to vouch for you to get you in?

I think we have evolved past the "Al Qaeda" label. Any radical muslim with intent to terrorize and kill should be lumped into the same group - regardless of links to Al Qaeda. They are all bad.

I agree with that, but I'm saying that the possible lack of organization speaks to the strength/weakness of the actual group. I feel less threatened by the "lone nuts" because they seem to be less successful.

71 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #8 Charles

He could have been the lone wolf jihadi in the mold of Malik Hasan, who had communications with al Qaeda recruiter Awlaki (who now appears to have not been one of those killed in the Yemeni airstrikes). He could have thought of himself as self styled al Qaeda by visiting AQ websites (supposition on my part), but someone may have helped him figure out how to prepare some kind of explosives.

Richard Reid was no more successful thanks to alert passengers than this guy was, and the AQ connections were there in Reid's case. AQ is desperate to achieve some kind of successful mass casualty attack against the US, and a successful hit against an airline would be just what they need for recruiting purposes. Moreover, it fits the AQ profile to try and hit the US early in the term of a new president.

72 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:04:37pm

For the above linked article - I didn't translate all as a lot is repetition or pointless ramble, my comments are in parenthesis. Take note that this is the dutch version of the 'Sun', so not exactly a quality newspaper. All sources in the article are also 3rd hand, so I'll wait with drawing conclusion until I've hears something more substantial.
Sorry for all the bad grammer and the like - I did this very quick and I'm not a native English speaker...

Minutes before the landig, Schuringa, a 32-yr-old businessman from Amsterdam, saw that a Nigerian suddenly stood up and lit something. The Dutchman didn't hesitate a and dove in blind anger on top of the terrorist. To archieve this, he climbed over other, scared passengers to get to the terrorist. After that, Jasper Schuringa held the suspect in a 'iron hold' (it's a judo term, I can't translate it properly) until the landing. With its act of heroism, Schuringa burned his hands, tore his clothing and lost his shoes. After the landing Schuringa was treated as a hero, his co-worker(and -passenger) Lydia Faber tells. In the US-american media he's treated like a hero...

His parents are very proud of him, they've had a short phone call. He told them that he flied over 'all chairs' (surely this is an exaggeration) when he saw what the guy was doing. He beat-up the guy, dragged him to the front of the aircraft and extinguished the flames.
We're very proud, but also shocked - one second later and it could've end very differently, we would have had a different phone call altogether, says Jasper's mother Ingrid. 'Schiphol's security has a lot to explain'.

(Lots of pointless ramble I've skipped in the article, this isn't written in exactly a quality newspaper...)

His friends are going to organize a big party from him when he comes home, January 8th.
Schuringa confirmed to his friend Kasem that the terrorist was packed in explosives, "It was absolutely no fireworks, but VERY serious", said the Dutchman. The terrorist got bad burns on his legs.

73 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:05:41pm

re: #67 Thanos

Sorry I can't agree that it doesn't matter if it's AQ or not.

It matters only on who we retaliate against. Also - AQ may be splintering.

74 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:06:08pm

re: #67 Thanos

Sorry I can't agree that it doesn't matter if it's AQ or not.

It matters in the greater scheme of things, who sent him, are there more attacks planned, but for the 250 odd passengers on that plane, on any plane, I don't think the AQ connection matters. He could have seriously hurt someone (did he?) anyway with what he had.

75 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:06:41pm

re: #48 Firstinla

The best airport security I've experienced is that in and out of Tel Aviv. The Israelis know their stuff when it comes to preventing such incidents.

My college study/travel group crossed by ground from Jordan into Israel. That was a thorough search!

76 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:07:41pm

I'm just thankful that most of these attempts demonstrate incompetence especially in physics.

Towards the "AQ or not" speculation the fact that there was a lone uncoordinated incident indicates that he was not.

It can't however be written off completely - did he have an accomplice in the Netherlands who passed the explosives? Next time will they recognize that PETN and other explosives don't work well when not encased?

77 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:08:28pm

re: #73 Racer X

Distributed attacks can be even more difficult to defend against than a centralized group; a centralized group means more communications to track and follow (typical conspiracies follow hub and spoke model or direct line). If AQ is splintering (and I think it has been trying to compartmentalize its various factions for the past couple of years because of the successes in getting various AQ leaders), it actually makes trying to thwart these kinds of attacks even more difficult because tracking plots where no one is communicating between the parties means the intel services can't hone in on those about to carry out attacks.

78 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:08:34pm

re: #72 mr.JA

Thank you.

79 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:09:23pm

re: #68 marjoriemoon

The idea is to head off the hijacker/bomber before he gets on the flight, not after. The Israelis do a lot of questioning before you get on the flight. A Nigerian with a one way ticket into Israel I guarantee you would not have gotten far. But that's Israel, a small country with a powerful screening process. Israel uses most of their money on these things.

My problem is how did this guy get on this plane, particularly if it's true that he had explosives all over him? I'm thrilled that passengers were aware and able to stop this guy, but how dangerous is that? Why should we be put into this position? The airlines simply must do a better job.

Should they do a perfect job?

And if doing their job better entails, let's say, shipping all luggage and carry-ons on a separate aircraft while passengers fly on passenger-only flights and are stripped naked before boarding, is that acceptable?

More realistically, how about if all carry-ons are banned? Or if every passenger must submit to a pat-down before boarding? Or a strip search? Or a high-resolution MRI or X-ray?

There is, quite simply, no perfect system, and it's always easy to find flaws after they've been exposed by an incident such as this, or worse. The final security measure is individual awareness and a willingness to act. And even then the system, viewed as a whole, will still contain imperfections.

80 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:10:15pm

re: #77 lawhawk

Distributed attacks can be even more difficult to defend against than a centralized group; a centralized group means more communications to track and follow (typical conspiracies follow hub and spoke model or direct line). If AQ is splintering (and I think it has been trying to compartmentalize its various factions for the past couple of years because of the successes in getting various AQ leaders), it actually makes trying to thwart these kinds of attacks even more difficult because tracking plots where no one is communicating between the parties means the intel services can't hone in on those about to carry out attacks.

Agreed - you make a better point of it than I did.

81 Racer X  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:10:33pm

Charles - did I say something stupid in my #69?

82 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:11:06pm

re: #79 SixDegrees

And even if they made the airlines bulletproof in the sense of being able to pick out all the threats and avert this kind of situation, the terrorists will simply change their targets to those that aren't nearly as well defended (railroads, subways, bus depots, etc., or other public spaces where people congregate). It's the kind of situation where those defending are always at a disadvantage and playing catchup and civil liberties crosses swords with security.

83 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:12:43pm

re: #57 Big Steve

Since the guy was Dutch...the Dutch term for a red neck is a "Klompendans" which means Clog Dancer.

No, 'klompendans' means 'Clog dance'. Besides, even 'Klompendanser' (Clog danser) isn't really terminology used here in Holland.

'Kaaskop' (cheesehead) is something you can say, if you want to point at the particulate uneducated and asocial part of our society you can say 'tokkie', but that is certainly not the case here.

Notice that the guy was born in Curaçau, he lived in Oman, and then in Gabon. He then lived a few years in Holland to finish high school and college while he finally left to miami, to study film...

Neither of the above qualifications would thus fit very well...

84 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:13:45pm

re: #70 Soap_Man

I agree with that, but I'm saying that the possible lack of organization speaks to the strength/weakness of the actual group. I feel less threatened by the "lone nuts" because they seem to be less successful.

They are also by far the most difficult to stop. The Unabomber successfully killed and maimed people for a couple of decades, largely because he was working in near-complete isolation.

With terrorism, whether it's al Qaida or the KKK, the best possible tool is infiltration. The KKK, in fact, has had it's effectiveness at terrorist acts severely curtailed thanks to exactly this step - they're free to get together in somebody's garage once a week to trash-talk minorities, but if any of them actually plan to do anything the FBI knows about it almost immediately. But this approach has no way of dealing with the loner, who's not just flying under the radar but is far too small even to emit a signal.

85 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:14:52pm

Thank God that most of these Islamofascists are stupid morons.

86 jarheadlifer  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:14:57pm

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

Apparently, the authorities have developed information to the contrary..


[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

In many kinds of explosive compounds, if the detonation is interrupted, incomplete or undersized, you'll get incineration rather than explosion. It's likely that this is the case here. The chemicals were probably either not mixed in the appropriate quatities, or the chemical catalyst malfunctioned in some, causing the resulting fire, rather than the intended "boom". C4, as an example, will burn quite intensely but not explode if the appropriate detonator isn't applied, FWIW.

87 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:17:19pm

re: #86 jarheadlifer

Apparently, the authorities have developed information to the contrary..

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

In many kinds of explosive compounds, if the detonation is interrupted, incomplete or undersized, you'll get incineration rather than explosion. It's likely that this is the case here. The chemicals were probably either not mixed in the appropriate quatities, or the chemical catalyst malfunctioned in some, causing the resulting fire, rather than the intended "boom". C4, as an example, will burn quite intensely but not explode if the appropriate detonator isn't applied, FWIW.

Right now, I'm awaiting more concrete information. There are a lot of other "facts" that have been reported which point away from aQ as the instigator here, but right now there's a whole loot of chaff flying around, and not a lot of wheat.

88 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:17:53pm

re: #86 jarheadlifer

Good to know. And I'm not being snarky.

89 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #79 SixDegrees

Should they do a perfect job?

And if doing their job better entails, let's say, shipping all luggage and carry-ons on a separate aircraft while passengers fly on passenger-only flights and are stripped naked before boarding, is that acceptable?

More realistically, how about if all carry-ons are banned? Or if every passenger must submit to a pat-down before boarding? Or a strip search? Or a high-resolution MRI or X-ray?

There is, quite simply, no perfect system, and it's always easy to find flaws after they've been exposed by an incident such as this, or worse. The final security measure is individual awareness and a willingness to act. And even then the system, viewed as a whole, will still contain imperfections.

El Al has a perfect system and yea, we (the Western World) have to strive for that perfection. 100s, 1000s of lives are stake.

What disturbs me in this case is first, the man was on a U.S. no fly list. Countries should be sharing their no fly lists if they don't already. Secondly, there seems to be some articles indicating the explosives were taped all over him, but we don't know if that's true. Thirdly, the one way ticket from Nigeria with no immigration paperwork should have caused some questioning.

90 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:18:18pm

re: #62 _RememberTonyC

I always thought it was the massive death and carnage that CAUSED the panic and fear.

Not really. There wasn't that much fear and panic after 9/11, more of a terrible resolve.

91 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:19:22pm

re: #84 SixDegrees

They are also by far the most difficult to stop. The Unabomber successfully killed and maimed people for a couple of decades, largely because he was working in near-complete isolation.

With terrorism, whether it's al Qaida or the KKK, the best possible tool is infiltration. The KKK, in fact, has had it's effectiveness at terrorist acts severely curtailed thanks to exactly this step - they're free to get together in somebody's garage once a week to trash-talk minorities, but if any of them actually plan to do anything the FBI knows about it almost immediately. But this approach has no way of dealing with the loner, who's not just flying under the radar but is far too small even to emit a signal.

I agree with all that, but coordinated attacks are almost always more deadly and destructive. 9/11 could not have been carried out by one guy. A coordinated bombing of a subway station would cause more widespread destruction and fear than a single bomb on a single train.

So I'm not disagreeing with that fact that loners are harder to catch, it's just that they rarely cause as much damage as groups do, which is why they concern me less than a group communicating with one another.

92 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #47 mr.JA

Sorry, forgot the link: [Link: www.telegraaf.nl...]


Great. Thank you. Google translator might do in this case although it is not yet a masterful translator.

93 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:20:19pm

re: #86 jarheadlifer

Apparently, the authorities have developed information to the contrary..

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

In many kinds of explosive compounds, if the detonation is interrupted, incomplete or undersized, you'll get incineration rather than explosion. It's likely that this is the case here. The chemicals were probably either not mixed in the appropriate quatities, or the chemical catalyst malfunctioned in some, causing the resulting fire, rather than the intended "boom". C4, as an example, will burn quite intensely but not explode if the appropriate detonator isn't applied, FWIW.

You always need a detonator before you can set off something like C4 - A thing called a 'detonator' is used in the military and this contains something called a 'primary explosive', an explosive that is very sensitive to heat and will detonate easier than the C4. The shock wave of the primary will detonate the C4. It seems that the guy had either an elaborate system of fuses and primary's, or it just didn't work. If the guy who stopped him dislodged something it could have messed-up his system.
Thing, is that people with 2 working braincells and some knowledge about explosives can set-up a fairly fool-proof system - fortunately, have people who want to blow up a plane they're on themselves seldomly more than 2 functioning braincells.

94 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:20:36pm

re: #90 The Sanity Inspector

Not really. There wasn't that much fear and panic after 9/11, more of a terrible resolve.

good point

95 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:21:44pm

re: #86 jarheadlifer

That's the second report of PETN, which makes it more credible unless they are sourcing the CBS report.

Re: AQ organization: They've always been compartmentalized in cells, as they learned from the communist insurgencies around the world. Their weakness is that they sometimes break bounds on their cells. The theory is that you have three man cells, with no single member of any cell knowing more than one member of another cell. AQ tends towards 4-6 man cells, and since we have rolled up so many leaders their rigor around who knows members in other cells has broken down the past five years. Indeed, as we saw with Zarqawi some leaders have whole membership lists for regions. That's their weakness. They've forgotten a critical detail of the compartmentalization.
As you get nearer to their leadership Shura, then you see that rigor tighten.

96 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:22:16pm

re: #3 John Neverbend

My suspicion is that "passenger participation" is going to be the rule whenever some nutjob decides to do something stupid in the air. I would hope that any would-be terrorists would realize this and not even bother to try.

Congress better get off of their collective ass and pass a law protecting "passenger participation" or we will see the probes and lawsuits increase until they do.

97 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:22:19pm

re: #93 mr.JA

Which is why a lot of Gazans (Gazians?) have missing fingers, toes, eyes, ears...

98 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:22:56pm

re: #72 mr.JA

Thank you for the interpretation. I think that "kaaskop" is a fun word to say and I will be using it soon to describe other drivers on the road.

99 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:23:20pm

re: #96 Bobibutu

Congress better get off of their collective ass and pass a law protecting "passenger participation" or we will see the probes and lawsuits increase until they do.

Has that happened before? (Not being snarky, just curious.)

100 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:23:26pm

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Dec. 26, 2009
Official: Explosive PETN Used in Attack

101 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:23:50pm

re: #89 marjoriemoon

El Al is close to perfect, but that's only after multiple hijackings of airlines destined for Israel during the 1960s and 1970s, including a successful attack in 1968. It's a hardened target, so the terrorists sought out other lesser protected airlines and means of carrying out their terror plots.

Trust me when I say that the terrorists would love to take down an El Al plane, and the latest threat El Al has to guard against is shoulder launched SAMs.

102 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #89 marjoriemoon

El Al has a perfect system and yea, we (the Western World) have to strive for that perfection. 100s, 1000s of lives are stake.

What disturbs me in this case is first, the man was on a U.S. no fly list. Countries should be sharing their no fly lists if they don't already. Secondly, there seems to be some articles indicating the explosives were taped all over him, but we don't know if that's true. Thirdly, the one way ticket from Nigeria with no immigration paperwork should have caused some questioning.

Americans would never submit to the sorts of security practices that are routine at El Al (not to mention that their methods don't scale to continental size well), and many European countries - not airlines - are strongly opposed to the adoption of US security practices or even information sharing. Not to mention what many non-European countries think. Hence my questions about what, exactly, is acceptable.

You know what works really, really well, a technique that is employed worldwide (especially by Israel) and which all security people put at or near the very top of their list of critical tools? Passenger profiling. And sadly, that is never, ever going to be allowed in the US, despite it's proven, indisputable track record.

103 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:24:50pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Which is why a lot of Gazans (Gazians?) have missing fingers, toes, eyes, ears...

Yes. Biggest mistake is making a bomb out of easy-to-prepare, primary explosives only - that way you have a few kg of highly unstable, heat sensitive material. A recipe for many a lost finger, if not lives...

104 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:25:51pm

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.

105 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:25:59pm

re: #87 SixDegrees

Right now, I'm awaiting more concrete information. There are a lot of other "facts" that have been reported which point away from aQ as the instigator here, but right now there's a whole loot of chaff flying around, and not a lot of wheat.

48 hour rule...

106 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #99 Soap_Man

Has that happened before? (Not being snarky, just curious.)

Do you remember "The Flying Imams?"

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

107 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #100 Bobibutu

Late to the party.

108 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:17pm

re: #68 marjoriemoon

The Israelis do a lot of questioning before you get on the flight.

I have had the pleasure of this questioning on many occasions. They usually give up on me, because I pass all the tests such as speaking Hebrew, giving plausible names and addresses of family members. I remember once checking my bags in a day early in T-A. The security guard at one point asked me why I was smiling. I was a little taken aback, so I muttered something in Hebrew about "just smiling". It seemed to work.

109 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:26pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.

Including congestion in the air as few would want to fly under those circumstances. Although mile high club would probably get a boost...///

110 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:33pm

Two reports of PETN - however that's one of the things that they definitely should be checking for at airports, which still makes me suspicious of the report.

111 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:39pm

re: #91 Soap_Man

I agree with all that, but coordinated attacks are almost always more deadly and destructive. 9/11 could not have been carried out by one guy. A coordinated bombing of a subway station would cause more widespread destruction and fear than a single bomb on a single train.

So I'm not disagreeing with that fact that loners are harder to catch, it's just that they rarely cause as much damage as groups do, which is why they concern me less than a group communicating with one another.

The Murrah Federal building took a substantial amount of damage. And the first attacks on the WTC, although sponsored by aQ, were essentially carried out by two guys. Two incredible idiots, as things turned out, but nothing they did required any outside assistance.

However, I agree that focusing on groups is certainly more productive, simply because no amount of resources devoted to detecting loners is likely to have any real impact.

112 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:27:41pm

re: #96 Bobibutu

Congress better get off of their collective ass and pass a law protecting "passenger participation" or we will see the probes and lawsuits increase until they do.

Right you are. We don't need another round of "flying imams lawsuits" to intimidate everyone into inaction.

113 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:28:07pm

re: #98 prairiefire

Thank you for the interpretation. I think that "kaaskop" is a fun word to say and I will be using it soon to describe other drivers on the road.

Have you encountered that many bad Dutch drivers? ;)
I live in Germany (am home now with the family over Christmas), and we Dutch have a bad reputation out there when it comes to driving, so I can find myself completely in your sentiment...

114 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:28:30pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.

Works for me. Might not work for my seatmate.

115 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:28:49pm

re: #108 John Neverbend

El Al gets away with profiling, and their questions are quite invasive and go beyond whether you packed your own luggage. They want to know destinations, itinerary, and if you respond out of character for a traveler, you get more scrutiny.

116 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:29:16pm

this should end well

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

117 Firstinla  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:29:53pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.

I recently flew out of Tulsa International and had to go through a full body scan, as did all passengers. An older woman refused very loudly telling everyone that God didn't want anybody to see her naked. I know I certainly didn't. I have no idea whether security found some other way to pass her through.

118 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:30:01pm

re: #102 SixDegrees

Americans would never submit to the sorts of security practices that are routine at El Al (not to mention that their methods don't scale to continental size well), and many European countries - not airlines - are strongly opposed to the adoption of US security practices or even information sharing. Not to mention what many non-European countries think. Hence my questions about what, exactly, is acceptable.

You know what works really, really well, a technique that is employed worldwide (especially by Israel) and which all security people put at or near the very top of their list of critical tools? Passenger profiling. And sadly, that is never, ever going to be allowed in the US, despite it's proven, indisputable track record.

Yes, the interviewing process is a big one. Like I say, Israel is a small country size wise and of course doesn't have the kind of traffic coming in and out of it like we have. They also devote huge amounts of money to safety.

If this guy was interviewed, which he deserved to be from his country of origin and his 1 way ticket, he might have been patted down and found out. And yes, I know hindsight is 20/20.

The last line of defense is us, and it's a good defense, but very dangerous.

119 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:30:45pm

re: #116 SpaceJesus

this should end well

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

Well, you should know.

120 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:31:47pm

re: #108 John Neverbend

I have had the pleasure of this questioning on many occasions. They usually give up on me, because I pass all the tests such as speaking Hebrew, giving plausible names and addresses of family members. I remember once checking my bags in a day early in T-A. The security guard at one point asked me why I was smiling. I was a little taken aback, so I muttered something in Hebrew about "just smiling". It seemed to work.

Psychological manipulation is part of the process. They're looking for how you react to such challenges. The line often forks at such checkpoints, and if you start sweating or look like you might, you get sent down the other branch, where a lot more upfront badgering takes place.

It's purely intentional.

121 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:31:48pm

re: #100 Bobibutu

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

A high-ranking law enforcement official told CBS News that the suspect apparently used a syringe to inject a chemical into the powder, which was located near his groin. It is a technique not seen in previous attempted attacks and it's possible that this incident was a test of whether the materials could pass screening and how effective they might be at causing damage, the source said.

No way security is going to screen everyone's "groin area".
Male/Female groin/genital areas - the last bodily refuge for an Al-Q bomb.

122 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:31:51pm

re: #61 soap_manQuestion: If he were Al Queda, would he really want to tell? Or at least tell so soon? Wouldn't he be able to keep his name in the headlines if he revealed information more slowly?

Then again, staging terrorism is not cheap. While contemporary terrorists are often portrayed as lone souls politically motivated, doesn't it require organization - and moolah - to pull things off?

123 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:32:08pm
124 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:32:08pm

And speaking of Awlaki above, Rep. Pete Hoekstra claims that there may be a link between Awlaki and the NW airline bomber, particularly when there are reports that the bomber was in Yemen prior to flying to Amsterdam for his flight to the US.

125 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:32:43pm

re: #109 lawhawk

Including congestion in the air as few would want to fly under those circumstances. Although mile high club would probably get a boost...///

hehe and isn't it just freezing on an airplane? The men wouldn't be very happy about it.

Ok, better idea. We strip down and the airline provides you with a robe. Huh? Huh??

126 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:33:24pm

re: #115 lawhawk

El Al gets away with profiling, and their questions are quite invasive and go beyond whether you packed your own luggage. They want to know destinations, itinerary, and if you respond out of character for a traveler, you get more scrutiny.

I was actually living there at the time. Having seen other tourists rubbing up the security people the wrong way, I knew exactly how to respond. I figure that I'm really wasting their time, so I want them to leave me and question somebody else.

One time I travelled with a Japanese business man. I warned him that he would be asked some fairly probing and possibly silly questions. Despite my preparation, he was rather put-out by the line of questioning, but I was able to keep the security people happy by adding additional information in Hebrew.

127 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:33:29pm

re: #121 FrogMarch

No way security is going to screen everyone's "groin area".
Male/Female groin/genital areas - the last bodily refuge for an Al-Q bomb.

Now I know where to put my shampoo bottle.

128 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:33:44pm

re: #125 marjoriemoon

Hospital gowns for all... heh! We're on to something here....

129 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:34:11pm

re: #122 Stuart Leviton

If he was AQ, I think he would scream it from the rooftops. It seems that any time there is an attack, AQ is pretty hasty when it comes to taking responsibility.

130 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:34:23pm

Anyone have any ideas about what this will accomplish ... besides very busy bathrooms just before the final hour?

According to the Air Canada website:

"New rules imposed by the U.S. Transportation Security Administration
also limit on-board activities by customers and crew in U.S. airspace that may adversely impact on-board service. Among other things, during the final hour of flight customers must remain seated, will not be
allowed to access carry-on baggage, or have personal belongings or other items on their laps."

[Link: www.aircanada.com...]

131 Sloppy  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:35:32pm

I've flown on El Al a couple of times. The security arrangements inspired a degree of confidence that carried over to other aspects of the flight. Normally I'm very afraid to fly, but was comfortable and relaxed on El Al. The food was good, too.

132 RealismRox  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:36:00pm


More realistically, how about if all carry-ons are banned? Or if every passenger must submit to a pat-down before boarding? Or a strip search? Or a high-resolution MRI or X-ray?

For one thing they can ban bringing on matches and cigarette lighters. As a smoker myself, I like that I can bring a lighter on but there's no good reason to have that on an airplane. I think we are eventually going to have x-ray scans at the airport, that will be able to see through clothes. It makes me really uncomfortable, but I think that incidents like this one will force the hand of the goverment.

133 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:36:36pm

re: #116 SpaceJesus

this should end well

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

Hope we don't have to dispatch another ex-president to pay homage to the Dear Leader.

134 Soap_Man  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:36:40pm

re: #96 Bobibutu

Congress better get off of their collective ass and pass a law protecting "passenger participation" or we will see the probes and lawsuits increase until they do.

The story you linked says: "The case drew national attention--including that of Congress, which passed a law protecting private citizens who report suspicious activity and law enforcement authorities who act in good faith on the information."

I'm not familiar with the law, but does it cover passengers who detain potential attackers? Or just protect them when they give info?

135 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:37:35pm

re: #121 FrogMarch

No way security is going to screen everyone's "groin area".
Male/Female groin/genital areas - the last bodily refuge for an Al-Q bomb.

It might not have been carried external either, real gross suppostion....

136 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:37:41pm

re: #130 Bobibutu

Anyone have any ideas about what this will accomplish ... besides very busy bathrooms just before the final hour?[...]

A lot of children with pissed seats.

137 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #130 Bobibutu

Anyone have any ideas about what this will accomplish ... besides very busy bathrooms just before the final hour?

According to the Air Canada website:

"New rules imposed by the U.S. Transportation Security Administration
also limit on-board activities by customers and crew in U.S. airspace that may adversely impact on-board service. Among other things, during the final hour of flight customers must remain seated, will not be
allowed to access carry-on baggage, or have personal belongings or other items on their laps."

[Link: www.aircanada.com...]

Pretty much impossible to enforce for people with certain medical conditions. And why confine such things to the final hour of flight? Granted, landing has more opportunity for problems, but blowing a wing off a plane even at cruising altitude is going to be a real crisis.

138 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:38:21pm

re: #130 Bobibutu

Anyone have any ideas about what this will accomplish ... besides very busy bathrooms just before the final hour?

According to the Air Canada website:

"New rules imposed by the U.S. Transportation Security Administration
also limit on-board activities by customers and crew in U.S. airspace that may adversely impact on-board service. Among other things, during the final hour of flight customers must remain seated, will not be
allowed to access carry-on baggage, or have personal belongings or other items on their laps."

[Link: www.aircanada.com...]

Jesus Christ, that is ridiculous! Now those poor terrorist have to book a flight all the way to LA (from europe) to blow up a plane and let it land on an american city.
This incident seems to be used to make flying even more of a torture than it already is - this really is utterly pointless...

139 boiledwombat  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:38:27pm

Kurt Haskell, a passenger on flight 253 claims to have seen Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab at an incident in front of the check-in counter at Schiphol airport. Haskell claims that Abdul was initially denied boarding due to lack of a passport – and was in the in the company of an older “Indian man” (non-passenger) who help him to resolve the problem.
They went to a manager’s office to get authorization for boarding.

Haskell also claims that another different “Indian man” who was on the flight, was arrested in the customs area when search dogs alerted to something in his hand luggage.

If these claims are true, then it would be a reasonable theory that the security at Schiphol airport has been infiltrated by terrorist sympathizers or compromised by ordinary criminal gangs of smugglers.

140 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:38:38pm

re: #121 FrogMarch

No way security is going to screen everyone's "groin area".
Male/Female groin/genital areas - the last bodily refuge for an Al-Q bomb.

I am glad I rarely fly anymore.

141 SpaceJesus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:39:47pm

re: #133 The Sanity Inspector

Hope we don't have to dispatch another ex-president to pay homage to the Dear Leader.

or waste a single tax dollar on this whatsoever

142 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:40:03pm

re: #125 marjoriemoon

hehe and isn't it just freezing on an airplane? The men wouldn't be very happy about it.

Ok, better idea. We strip down and the airline provides you with a robe. Huh? Huh??

And hot tubs!

143 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #72 mr.JA
mr JA. Impressive translation. Thank you.

144 Firstinla  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:40:30pm

re: #132 RealismRox


More realistically, how about if all carry-ons are banned? Or if every passenger must submit to a pat-down before boarding? Or a strip search? Or a high-resolution MRI or X-ray?

For one thing they can ban bringing on matches and cigarette lighters. As a smoker myself, I like that I can bring a lighter on but there's no good reason to have that on an airplane. I think we are eventually going to have x-ray scans at the airport, that will be able to see through clothes. It makes me really uncomfortable, but I think that incidents like this one will force the hand of the goverment.


The scanner at Tulsa International goes right through clothing and shows the person naked: everything is clearly visible. That's what many find objectionable.

145 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:40:43pm

re: #126 John Neverbend

I was actually living there at the time. Having seen other tourists rubbing up the security people the wrong way, I knew exactly how to respond. I figure that I'm really wasting their time, so I want them to leave me and question somebody else.

One time I travelled with a Japanese business man. I warned him that he would be asked some fairly probing and possibly silly questions. Despite my preparation, he was rather put-out by the line of questioning, but I was able to keep the security people happy by adding additional information in Hebrew.

I posted yesterday on my first visit to Israel when I was 16. I ended up in a closed cubicle with three grown men going through my luggage because I didn't disclose I had a cassette player. Scared the hell outa me. And we were traveling with B'nai Brith which is usually a sign that all is ok.

146 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:40:47pm

re: #139 boiledwombat

Kurt Haskell, a passenger on flight 253 claims to have seen Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab at an incident in front of the check-in counter at Schiphol airport. Haskell claims that Abdul was initially denied boarding due to lack of a passport – and was in the in the company of an older “Indian man” (non-passenger) who help him to resolve the problem.
They went to a manager’s office to get authorization for boarding.

Haskell also claims that another different “Indian man” who was on the flight, was arrested in the customs area when search dogs alerted to something in his hand luggage.

If these claims are true, then it would be a reasonable theory that the security at Schiphol airport has been infiltrated by terrorist sympathizers or compromised by ordinary criminal gangs of smugglers.

Possible. Again, I'm not trusting any of the information currently circulating, at least not for another day or two.

147 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:41:41pm

re: #132 RealismRox


More realistically, how about if all carry-ons are banned? Or if every passenger must submit to a pat-down before boarding? Or a strip search? Or a high-resolution MRI or X-ray?

For one thing they can ban bringing on matches and cigarette lighters. As a smoker myself, I like that I can bring a lighter on but there's no good reason to have that on an airplane. I think we are eventually going to have x-ray scans at the airport, that will be able to see through clothes. It makes me really uncomfortable, but I think that incidents like this one will force the hand of the goverment.

I really don't understand why we don't have xrays that can see through clothes. Is that such a difficult thing?

148 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:43:00pm

re: #147 marjoriemoon

I really don't understand why we don't have xrays that can see through clothes. Is that such a difficult thing?

Men everywhere agree with you.

149 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:44:31pm

re: #135 Thanos

It might not have been carried external either, real gross suppostion...

ugh. Seriously - how to we possibly combat this?
Anal probes in the security line?

150 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:44:42pm

re: #147 marjoriemoon

I really don't understand why we don't have xrays that can see through clothes. Is that such a difficult thing?

We do. Their installation is currently being opposed by various civil rights groups. They are also very expensive, and concerns have been raised both about their safety and their efficacy.

Personally, they don't bother me at all, and I'd happily pass through such a system.

151 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:45:55pm

re: #147 marjoriemoon

I really don't understand why we don't have xrays that can see through clothes. Is that such a difficult thing?

Actually, at are scanners in the UK now that should be able to do a full bodyscan. There was a lot of resistance against it, but the person who checks the video's will NOT see the person and is situated remotely from the scanner.

152 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:46:44pm

re: #134 Soap_Man

The story you linked says: "The case drew national attention--including that of Congress, which passed a law protecting private citizens who report suspicious activity and law enforcement authorities who act in good faith on the information."

I'm not familiar with the law, but does it cover passengers who detain potential attackers? Or just protect them when they give info?

"protecting private citizens who report suspicious activity"

I don't think it exempts rear-naked-chokes, right crosses or elbows to the face.

Point fingers and pray.

153 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:46:53pm

re: #127 marjoriemoon

Now I know where to put my shampoo bottle.

Pretty soon we'll all be traveling with liquids and gels in strange places.

Unless I'm traveling to Pluto, I plan on buying what I need when I get there. It's a waste of money - but I'm over it. I like to carry-on.

154 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:47:37pm

Link to a BBC article here. If you're overly sensitive to minute, monochromatic male genitalia, then do not click.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

155 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:48:00pm

These restrictions about not going to the toilet, not having pillows; maybe restrictions about blankets, are not going to go over at all with moms who have small kids on board, nor are they going to be any help to the elderly.

Here we see yet again how we pay and pay because we did not make a "disproportionate" response after 9-11.

This should have been quickly over.

156 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:48:02pm

re: #139 boiledwombat

Kurt Haskell, a passenger on flight 253 claims to have seen Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab at an incident in front of the check-in counter at Schiphol airport. Haskell claims that Abdul was initially denied boarding due to lack of a passport – and was in the in the company of an older “Indian man” (non-passenger) who help him to resolve the problem.
They went to a manager’s office to get authorization for boarding.

Haskell also claims that another different “Indian man” who was on the flight, was arrested in the customs area when search dogs alerted to something in his hand luggage.

If these claims are true, then it would be a reasonable theory that the security at Schiphol airport has been infiltrated by terrorist sympathizers or compromised by ordinary criminal gangs of smugglers.

If this is true, then heads should be rolling at this point. And there would be no excuse acceptable for that man to be on that flight.

157 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:49:28pm

Interesting collision of forces going on. Security issues with carry-ons pushing towards more use of checked bags against airlines charging extra money for each checked bag which would push towards wanting to use more carry-ons.

Maybe time to take Elbonian Air and avoid all the complication.

158 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:49:38pm

re: #149 FrogMarch

ugh. Seriously - how to we possibly combat this?
Anal probes in the security line?

It's a standard smuggling technique, I don't know how they watch for balloons however...

159 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:50:14pm

re: #154 mr.JA

Link to a BBC article here. If you're overly sensitive to minute, monochromatic male genitalia, then do not click.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

How did you get my pic? Damn interweb thingy...
/

160 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:50:44pm

re: #138 mr.JA

Jesus Christ, that is ridiculous! Now those poor terrorist have to book a flight all the way to LA (from europe) to blow up a plane and let it land on an american city.
This incident seems to be used to make flying even more of a torture than it already is - this really is utterly pointless...

The really scary parts are the geniuses at TSA who come up with this shit.

Ah, just relax and enjoy your flight - these folks are on our side ... right?

161 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:50:56pm

re: #8 Charles

If you even say you are from Al Qaeda, then you are, I think.

162 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:54:19pm

re: #150 SixDegrees

We do. Their installation is currently being opposed by various civil rights groups. They are also very expensive, and concerns have been raised both about their safety and their efficacy.

Personally, they don't bother me at all, and I'd happily pass through such a system.

My husband just reminded me of that. Something about men oogling over the xray image of women's breasts? I suppose children would be a greater and more important concern.

163 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:54:46pm

re: #149 FrogMarch

You combat this by making the world it comes from hurt too much for them to think it worthwhile to continue this shit.

164 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:54:56pm

re: #102 SixDegrees
May I challenge your statement that American's will never allow an extremely thorough security system (my rephrasing)? Isn't your statement really that as long as American's do not see the need for greater security, it will unlikely happen?

165 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:55:51pm

re: #151 mr.JA

Actually, at are scanners in the UK now that should be able to do a full bodyscan. There was a lot of resistance against it, but the person who checks the video's will NOT see the person and is situated remotely from the scanner.

I think the answer to that is not to scan everyone. But someone like this, with a considerable number of "high" signs could have been passed through such a detector.

166 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:56:43pm

re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar

How did you get my pic? Damn interweb thingy...
/

You need to loosen your belt mate, so tight is unhealthy. +1 for your comment, it made me laugh.

167 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #164 Stuart Leviton

May I challenge your statement that American's will never allow an extremely thorough security system (my rephrasing)? Isn't your statement really that as long as American's do not see the need for greater security, it will unlikely happen?

Technically, you are correct. However, I stand by my original statement; it's not something we'll ever accept.

168 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:00:25pm

Oh, man - Stilton cheese on sesame water crackers, with a glass of Pinot Noir. It can't hardly get any better than this.

169 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:01:45pm

I am waiting for Fox to spin this attack as Obama's fault. Or blame it on those cheese and wine-loving liberal elitists. We stick to beer and pretzels around here!

170 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:02:34pm

re: #155 Ojoe

These restrictions about not going to the toilet, not having pillows; maybe restrictions about blankets, are not going to go over at all with moms who have small kids on board, nor are they going to be any help to the elderly.

Here we see yet again how we pay and pay because we did not make a "disproportionate" response after 9-11.

This should have been quickly over.

I think by the time 9/11 happened, it was pretty much out of control. I mean, you have the situation in Israel, fed by Hizbolah, Iran and other Al-Queda or AQ elements that has been going on for decades. The Russians fought them in Afghanistan for 20 years with little effect and we continue to fight them still.

We will win because we have to win, but it's going to take some time. I'm glad anyway that no one was seriously harmed in this incident other than that dipshit.

171 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:02:44pm

re: #147 marjoriemoon

I really don't understand why we don't have xrays that can see through clothes. Is that such a difficult thing?

We're not all as attractive as you!

172 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:02:53pm

re: #169 ralphieboy

I am waiting for Fox to spin this attack as Obama's fault. Or blame it on those cheese and wine-loving liberal elitists. We stick to beer and pretzels around here!

I don't see bin Laden being involved. The dead may vote in Chicago, but they're lousy at terror planning.

173 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:03:41pm

re: #158 Thanos

It's a standard smuggling technique, I don't know how they watch for balloons however...

That's true. I suppose if enough terrorists were able to coordinate a real threat - they could/would figure out the operatives needed to each carry a component of an explosive big enough to cause enough damage to succeed. Even with our security loop-holes it many never be possible. But hey - they have nothing but time to figure it out.

174 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:04:00pm

re: #162 marjoriemoon

How many "rads" do you get every time you go through the line?

An end must be put to this BS, and in the long run no effective response will be possible thru increased "security measures".

175 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:04:50pm

re: #170 marjoriemoon

This goes back to about the year 622.

176 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:05:17pm

re: #172 SixDegrees


Mandatory sandals, short trousers and/or skirts for all airline passengers. End of problem.

177 boiledwombat  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:06:10pm

One of the passengers, who tackled Abdul, reportedly stated that “he was covered in explosives, all over his body, not just on his legs”. There apparently was some kind of frantic scramble by the passengers to tear off Abdul’s shirt and throw water on the burning lines of powder.

Abdul was said to be “staring vacantly” during the fire and showed no reaction to the very severe burns on his legs during or after the critical phase of the incident.

178 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:06:36pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

We're not all as attractive as you!

lol Hardly, I just don't care.

But I'm thinking now... gym membership will probably get a spike ya think?

179 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:07:44pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

Mandatory sandals, short trousers and/or skirts for all airline passengers. End of problem.

How much are we really willing to put up with, and for how long?

This enemy is not only trying to bring down airliners.

And we are letting them have whole countries as sanctuaries.

We are fools, so far, in the West here.

BBL

180 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:08:39pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

Mandatory sandals, short trousers and/or skirts for all airline passengers. End of problem.

Well, it addresses today's problem. Some.

181 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:10:16pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

Mandatory sandals, short trousers and/or skirts for all airline passengers. End of problem.

That probably removes any hope of phasing out the hairy, morbidly obese dude in the stained wifebeater.

182 blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #8 Charles

The more I read about this incident, the less I believe that it was really an Al Qaeda attack. It seems too poorly planned. And this wasn't even a bomb -- it was an incendiary device, which would have much less chance of actually destroying the plane.

I think this guy is BSing when he says he was sent by Al Qaeda.

Why are you thinking it is a hoax? Richard Reid wasn't any smarter.

183 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:10:27pm

re: #174 Ojoe

How many "rads" do you get every time you go through the line?

An end must be put to this BS, and in the long run no effective response will be possible thru increased "security measures".

I strongly disagree. Look at Israel and their security.

I mentioned above, I think Israel is unique, but surely they have good ideas. See-through xrays could be used on people with high suspicions.

184 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #177 boiledwombat

One of the passengers, who tackled Abdul, reportedly stated that “he was covered in explosives, all over his body, not just on his legs”. There apparently was some kind of frantic scramble by the passengers to tear off Abdul’s shirt and throw water on the burning lines of powder.

Abdul was said to be “staring vacantly” during the fire and showed no reaction to the very severe burns on his legs during or after the critical phase of the incident.

Again, I'm waiting on stories like this. There are several things about them that make no sense, and the rush to report something - anything - so often runs ahead of the desire to report actual facts that I think I'll just wait a while before accepting these stories.

185 cygnus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:10:53pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.

Eye bleach would be allowed in your carry on bag.

186 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:11:33pm

re: #169 ralphieboy

I am waiting for Fox to spin this attack as Obama's fault. Or blame it on those cheese and wine-loving liberal elitists. We stick to beer and pretzels around here!

Easy. Holland = baby-murdering, drug-addicted liberals, and Obama is exactly the same... ///

187 blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:12:00pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

Could be, or someone else is BSing him. Or he could just be a low-level test balloon. If it works, bonus. If he gets caught, he knows nothing, and he's totally disposable.


Now that makes sense.

188 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:12:01pm

re: #182 blueheron

Why are you thinking it is a hoax? Richard Reid wasn't any smarter.

He isn't saying it was a hoax; only that aQ involvement seems unlikely for several reasons.

189 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:12:01pm

re: #175 Ojoe

This goes back to about the year 622.

This particular incident is more recent, the forming of AQ, et al.

In the Middle Ages, btw, the Christians were worse to the Jews than the Muslims.

190 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:12:10pm

re: #163 Ojoe

You combat this by making the world it comes from hurt too much for them to think it worthwhile to continue this shit.

I'd like to think there was some way to do that. Since they are willing to blow themselves to bits for their cause, I wonder what that hurt would be?

191 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:12:45pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

Christians have learned and islamics have not.

BBL

192 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:14:00pm

re: #167 SixDegrees
Okay. Makes sense to me.

p.s. - I erred in using the word "challenge". Sorry.

193 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:14:11pm

re: #183 marjoriemoon

I strongly disagree. Look at Israel and their security.

I mentioned above, I think Israel is unique, but surely they have good ideas. See-through xrays could be used on people with high suspicions.

The problem we (the US) are too politically correct. We would rather die, than profile someone. Unless we profile a bunch of people who shouldn't be profiled so that we feel better about profiling those who should be profiled.

194 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #191 Ojoe

Christians have learned and islamics have not.

BBL

Indeed, but that's why I spoke of modern history. I don't think it's particularly necessary or prudent to go back 1500 years.

195 blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:14:34pm

re: #27 SixDegrees

Unfortunately, whoever was responsible now knows what materials will make it through security undetected.

It was strapped to his leg. Does that mean we all have to wear shorts now? Ewwwww.

196 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:15:59pm

re: #190 FrogMarch

I'd like to think there was some way to do that. Since they are willing to blow themselves to bits for their cause, I wonder what that hurt would be?

General Pershing used bullets dipped in pig fat and buried the dead in pigskins. That worked.

197 blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:18:20pm

re: #48 Firstinla

The best airport security I've experienced is that in and out of Tel Aviv. The Israelis know their stuff when it comes to preventing such incidents.


Amen to that. They are awesome.

198 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:18:44pm

re: #169 ralphieboy

I am waiting for Fox to spin this attack as Obama's fault. Or blame it on those cheese and wine-loving liberal elitists. We stick to beer and pretzels around here!

See SixDegree's #168. He loves wine and cheese, but I'm not sure if he is a liberal.

199 RadicalModerate  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #147 marjoriemoon

From a strictly Constitutional basis, I would strongly oppose something as invasive as this type of device. I fully support a reasonable amount of security in airports (or other public venues, for that matter). However, the ability to strip a person naked without their full knowledge and consent goes far beyond "reasonable".

A multi-tiered system is a much better solution, and holds up to constitutional scrutiny - Moderately passive, noninvasive screening (metal/chemical signature detectors), ticket/ID check. If a person is deemed a potential security risk, then more thorough screening is warranted.

200 Cygnus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:19:18pm

re: #142 ryannon

And hot tubs!

Only in first class. Sorry.

201 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:19:26pm

re: #52 John Neverbend

That's right. I think it's virtually impossible to get past them. Also, I understand that El-Al has on-board "marshals" on every flight (I don't know if they are armed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't).

Amstel Dam (Holland) does not allow air marshals on their flights to the US.

202 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:19:29pm

re: #195 blueheron

It was strapped to his leg. Does that mean we all have to wear shorts now? Ewww.

No, that's be ridiculous. They'll probably come up with a common-sense compromise. Like requiring us to take off our pants along with our shoes, at the checkpoint. Burkhas excepted, of course, wouldn't want to cause offense.
/

203 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:20:20pm

re: #142 ryannon

In bed! Ha!, my first one of those.

204 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:20:21pm

re: #196 Bobibutu

General Pershing used bullets dipped in pig fat and buried the dead in pigskins. That worked.

So, should we make everybody eat a slice of bacon before boarding?

Seriously, though - such approaches won't work anyway. Wahabism is remarkably flexible about religious doctrine when it comes to the cause of martyrdom, so assaults based on such beliefs won't work. In fact, they'd probably backfire - aQ, in particular, strongly desires igniting a religious war with the West, and would like nothing better than to have us rise to that challenge and strike out against the Muslim faith in general.

205 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:20:42pm

re: #57 Big Steve

Since the guy was Dutch...the Dutch term for a red neck is a "Klompendans" which means Clog Dancer.

Ah geez it doesn't have the same punch ya know?

206 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:20:58pm

re: #198 prairiefire

See SixDegree's #168. He loves wine and cheese, but I'm not sure if he is a liberal.

I do, and I'm not.

207 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:21:57pm

re: #198 prairiefire

See SixDegree's #168. He loves wine and cheese, but I'm not sure if he is a liberal.

Ooh, ooh; good idea for a thread topic: Who else has a characteristic usually associated with the opposite political persuasion? Me, I'm a conservative, but I wear Birkenstocks.

208 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:22:59pm

re: #199 RadicalModerate

From a strictly Constitutional basis, I would strongly oppose something as invasive as this type of device. I fully support a reasonable amount of security in airports (or other public venues, for that matter). However, the ability to strip a person naked without their full knowledge and consent goes far beyond "reasonable".

A multi-tiered system is a much better solution, and holds up to constitutional scrutiny - Moderately passive, noninvasive screening (metal/chemical signature detectors), ticket/ID check. If a person is deemed a potential security risk, then more thorough screening is warranted.

Technically, you would give your consent when you purchased your ticket. Like driving, flying isn't a right.

I do agree that methods apart from technology alone ought to be employed.

209 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:23:33pm
210 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:24:58pm

re: #206 SixDegrees

Hard to profile a human being!
Enjoy. I have a variety of cheeses in the fridge from the student creamery at CalPoly Creamery at San Luis Obispo. Sent to us from my politically hard right brother in law. I promise to enjoy them just as much as if he were a liberal.

211 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:25:48pm

re: #207 The Sanity Inspector

Ooh, ooh; good idea for a thread topic: Who else has a characteristic usually associated with the opposite political persuasion? Me, I'm a conservative, but I wear Birkenstocks.

I'll play! I'm a liberal but sex jokes make me blush.

212 Big Steve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:28:08pm

re: #83 mr.JA

No, 'klompendans' means 'Clog dance'. Besides, even 'Klompendanser' (Clog danser) isn't really terminology used here in Holland.

'Kaaskop' (cheesehead) is something you can say, if you want to point at the particulate uneducated and asocial part of our society you can say 'tokkie', but that is certainly not the case here.

Notice that the guy was born in Curaçau, he lived in Oman, and then in Gabon. He then lived a few years in Holland to finish high school and college while he finally left to miami, to study film...

Neither of the above qualifications would thus fit very well...

Well my Dutch friends call each other Klompendansers all the time.

213 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:28:42pm

Here's what I think will happen:

First let us recall the phrase "never let a crisis go to waste"

The Security Theater™ will continue to increase in ridiculous ways making air travel more uncomfortable.

A new defective air puff scanner will be developed and sold to the government for a zillion dollars by companies with good congressional donation histories.

At least the Military Industrial Homeland
Congressional Complex will be protected, and that's apparently Job Number One.

214 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:30:14pm

re: #196 Bobibutu

General Pershing used bullets dipped in pig fat and buried the dead in pigskins. That worked.

No, this is probably a bogus story.

[Link: www.snopes.com...]

215 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:30:32pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

I think we should fly nekkid. Solve everyone's troubles.


Not mine. No thanks I will walk :(

216 RadicalModerate  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:31:56pm

re: #208 SixDegrees

Technically, you would give your consent when you purchased your ticket. Like driving, flying isn't a right.

I do agree that methods apart from technology alone ought to be employed.

The key word here is "reasonable". Buying an airplane ticket doesn't automatically give airports and law enforcement carte blanche to throw out the fourth amendment.

Using your driving analogy, this would be the same as requiring every driver to submit to a breathalyzer test before turning the ignition key. By definition, it assumes guilt.

217 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:32:38pm

re: #207 The Sanity Inspector

I'm a social 'liberal' but I think that certain cultures really are better than others.

218 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:36:48pm

Korean-American Activist Crosses Into North Korea

The most charitable explanation is that the horror-show that is North Korea sent this sensitive young man around the bend. Let's hope we don't send Bill Clinton back to kiss KJI's ring again, though.

219 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:37:38pm

re: #217 Obdicut

I'm a social 'liberal' but I think that certain cultures really are better than others.

Agreed, mine. I have lived abroad for 6 months, I have studied several world religions. No where else on the planet do I have as many civil liberties, personal rights and freedom as a woman. The chauvinism that was so prevalent in the 60's is about all gone. I can decide for myself whatever path to take in life. I can run my mouth off with whatever nonsense I choose. I am not treated as chattel or property.
I love America.

220 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:37:45pm

re: #199 RadicalModerate

From a strictly Constitutional basis, I would strongly oppose something as invasive as this type of device. I fully support a reasonable amount of security in airports (or other public venues, for that matter). However, the ability to strip a person naked without their full knowledge and consent goes far beyond "reasonable".

A multi-tiered system is a much better solution, and holds up to constitutional scrutiny - Moderately passive, noninvasive screening (metal/chemical signature detectors), ticket/ID check. If a person is deemed a potential security risk, then more thorough screening is warranted.

It wouldn't be without their knowledge. Thinking about it more, as I said upthread, such a device could be used only on suspicious persons. Not every passenger is patted down and it looks like this man was hiding it between his legs somehow. Would a pat down even have found it? An xray would. It doesn't have to violate the constitution at all.

221 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:37:52pm

re: #188 SixDegrees

He isn't saying it was a hoax; only that aQ involvement seems unlikely for several reasons.


Actually AQ involvement means hardly anything. Al Queda is a term we use to describe radical Muslim movements that appears all over the world . Attacks oftentimes have nothing to do with Osama's "Base"

The movements origins are based on an ideology. Ideologies are almost impossible to erase. You don't think so?
I understand KKK is making a comeback.

222 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:38:23pm

Yea, use pork. Brilliant!!

I guess vegetarians, vegans and Jews can fly anymore either :(

223 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:39:36pm

re: #214 Charles

Fair enough ... very interesting read.

224 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:41:41pm

re: #202 The Sanity Inspector

No, that's be ridiculous. They'll probably come up with a common-sense compromise. Like requiring us to take off our pants along with our shoes, at the checkpoint. Burkhas excepted, of course, wouldn't want to cause offense.
/

Now you really made me laugh! :)))

225 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:45:44pm

re: #214 Charles

No, this is probably a bogus story.

[Link: www.snopes.com...]


Ah shoot Snopes is always shooting down great stories....pout...
/

226 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:47:20pm

re: #219 prairiefire

Agreed, mine. I have lived abroad for 6 months, I have studied several world religions. No where else on the planet do I have as many civil liberties, personal rights and freedom as a woman. The chauvinism that was so prevalent in the 60's is about all gone. I can decide for myself whatever path to take in life. I can run my mouth off with whatever nonsense I choose. I am not treated as chattel or property.
I love America.

I like the running my mouth off part the best I think :)

227 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:49:17pm

re: #226 Blueheron

Me too!

228 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:53:50pm

re: #196 Bobibutu

General Pershing used bullets dipped in pig fat and buried the dead in pigskins. That worked.

In all seriousness, we are discussing airport security and the impact these terrorist acts have on how we travel. I have no answer to the bigger picture. We can't nuke mecca - we cannot act crazy and expect radial Ismalic acts to stop. We can only fight it, one person/one flight at a time. Sadly, even when the terrorists fail, they win. A bit of our freedom and peace of mind are gone. I'm not sure there is a 'hurt" that would work.

229 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:54:14pm

re: #193 FrogMarch

The problem we (the US) are too politically correct. We would rather die, than profile someone. Unless we profile a bunch of people who shouldn't be profiled so that we feel better about profiling those who should be profiled.

The problem with profiling is that others could be carrying it for them. I'm against random profiling, but a man named Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab coming out of Nigeria with a 1 way ticket is fair game.

230 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:54:52pm

re: #225 Blueheron

Ah shoot Snopes is always shooting down great stories...pout...
/

Snopes is a useful resource but they don't own the patent on reality 100% of the time.

231 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:55:01pm

typos typos typos. tip toe...

232 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:58:40pm

re: #228 FrogMarch

Agreed. I shot from the hip.

When someone is willing to give up their life - that is impossible to stop.

233 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:59:10pm

re: #229 marjoriemoon

The problem with profiling is that others could be carrying it for them. I'm against random profiling, but a man named Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab coming out of Nigeria with a 1 way ticket is fair game.

He is fair game - and should be fair game. Sadly, he wasn't fair game.
After 9/11, I remember the random profiling, and it was silly. I was stopped, pulled out from the crowd, and my bag searched.... more than once. It was ridiculous. Eeek - I'm a scary middle-aged hot sexy female who might blow up a flight to Phoenix. We have to face the fact that our airport security is lame.

234 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 1:59:58pm

re: #232 Bobibutu

Agreed. I shot from the hip.

When someone is willing to give up their life - that is impossible to stop.

No worries - I was the one who was deleted for saying - "hey cool!"

235 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:05:46pm

re: #234 FrogMarch

No worries - I was the one who was deleted for saying - "hey cool!"

Referring to history or possible history is one thing. Advocating it - another.

Sometimes our fingers are a bit quicker than out brains. ;-)

236 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:08:49pm

re: #233 FrogMarch

He is fair game - and should be fair game. Sadly, he wasn't fair game.
After 9/11, I remember the random profiling, and it was silly. I was stopped, pulled out from the crowd, and my bag searched... more than once. It was ridiculous. Eeek - I'm a scary middle-aged hot sexy female who might blow up a flight to Phoenix. We have to face the fact that our airport security is lame.

After all these years, I didn't realize you were a woman LOL Or maybe I forgot!

Yea, the middle age lady and nun searches are pretty silly. Although, you could probably hide quite a bit in a habit.

It's more efficient to interview, particularly on overseas flights. In fact, much stricter measures are required on international flights. This particular incident is a shocker, really, and I'm curious how it will all play out.

A 5 minute screening interview process wouldn't be bad if it could be done efficiently without adding too much stress on busy travelers.

237 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:14:54pm

re: #194 marjoriemoon

Indeed, but that's why I spoke of modern history. I don't think it's particularly necessary or prudent to go back 1500 years.

The misogyny in islamic culture (honor killings, cutting off noses and ears, and in more recent times, acid thrown in faces) predates Mohammad by at least a thousand years.

I'm not an expert on Hebrew history, but it is evident from some old writings (Book of Ezekiel, for instance), and some modern ones (documents for Jehovah's Witnesses, circa 1970) that harsh attitudes toward women were not uncommon in ancient times. What's worse, those attitudes were extended by some to international relations, trade, and alliances, with devastating consequences. For engaging in unsanctioned trade and making treaties with its immediate neighbors (Egypt and Syria), ancient Judea and Israel (Jerusalem) were compared, metaphorically, to disloyal wives, and utterly crushed. The Babylonian Captivity followed.

I suspect this is not irrelevant to issues of antisemitism down thru the ages.

238 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:18:21pm

re: #216 RadicalModerate

The key word here is "reasonable". Buying an airplane ticket doesn't automatically give airports and law enforcement carte blanche to throw out the fourth amendment.

Using your driving analogy, this would be the same as requiring every driver to submit to a breathalyzer test before turning the ignition key. By definition, it assumes guilt.

Actually, there's nothing wrong with the breathalyzer proposal you mention, either. It is, in fact, already possible to buy alcohol interlocks that require the driver to blow before ignition, and prevent ignition if they fail the test.

Presumption of guilt is being misconstrued here. If no actions were permitted until proof of guilt was ascertained, police would be completely powerless unless they happened to stumble upon a crime in the act of being committed. They wouldn't be permitted to pull people over simply on suspicion of drunk driving, they wouldn't be able to hold people who failed a breathalyzer test, in fact they wouldn't be permitted even to hold murderers or anyone else who, prior to a trial, are not guilty. Guilt isn't a prerequisite for action. It's also against the law for people to ride bicycles on the freeway, even though they aren't "guilty" of being in a serious accident.

Also, the presumption of innocence is not guaranteed in the Constitution. In fact, the Federal Tax Courts - where the IRS brings it's cases - operates with the defendant required to prove the charges against them are false. This is also true in several other countries. All of which is beside the point: airlines are private organizations and can impose whatever pre-flight requirements they like without infringing on safeguards against unreasonable search and seizure covered by the 4th Amendment, since they are not operating in the capacity of law enforcement.

This is similar to arguing that stores have no right to presume guilt or conduct searches by scanning for electronic merchandise tags, as the do tens of millions of times each day as both employees and customers pass through anti-theft gateways at building entrances.

You may not personally care for such searches, but...tough. Again, flying is not a right; if you don't want to submit to the procedures, you don't have to fly.

239 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:21:05pm

re: #233 FrogMarch

He is fair game - and should be fair game. Sadly, he wasn't fair game.
After 9/11, I remember the random profiling, and it was silly. I was stopped, pulled out from the crowd, and my bag searched... more than once. It was ridiculous. Eeek - I'm a scary middle-aged hot sexy female who might blow up a flight to Phoenix. We have to face the fact that our airport security is lame.

The problem you encountered is an example of what happens when profiling is NOT used. Random searches like this are ineffective, at best, although they're a useful low-level supplement to more directed searches which are guided by actual profiling. Real profiling would have presumably assigned you a very low probability of being a risk, had it actually been used.

240 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:22:56pm

re: #236 marjoriemoon

After all these years, I didn't realize you were a woman LOL Or maybe I forgot!

Yea, the middle age lady and nun searches are pretty silly. Although, you could probably hide quite a bit in a habit.

It's more efficient to interview, particularly on overseas flights. In fact, much stricter measures are required on international flights. This particular incident is a shocker, really, and I'm curious how it will all play out.

A 5 minute screening interview process wouldn't be bad if it could be done efficiently without adding too much stress on busy travelers.

How did this guy slip through the stricter international travel cracks? I hope we will find out. I think most or all one-way tickets purchased (out of nations that are known to breed hostility, perhaps?) should be an automatic screening requirement.
Anyone could potentially be a terrorist, but so far, it hasn't been just anyone. It's been one specific group. Our energy and focus should be spent on those who really are raising red flags. Not just the lets-make-it-random-so-it's-perceived-as fair nonsense.

241 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:23:42pm

re: #221 Blueheron

Actually AQ involvement means hardly anything. Al Queda is a term we use to describe radical Muslim movements that appears all over the world . Attacks oftentimes have nothing to do with Osama's "Base"

The movements origins are based on an ideology. Ideologies are almost impossible to erase. You don't think so?
I understand KKK is making a comeback.

Nonetheless, aQ is a very specific, particular organization with a number of unique traits. That's what Charles was referring to. Nowhere did he suggest that there was any sort of hoax occurring.

242 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:25:51pm

re: #239 SixDegrees

The problem you encountered is an example of what happens when profiling is NOT used. Random searches like this are ineffective, at best, although they're a useful low-level supplement to more directed searches which are guided by actual profiling. Real profiling would have presumably assigned you a very low probability of being a risk, had it actually been used.


Random seems silly-- Like a waste of time and energy. Is it supposed to make us feel like they are actually doing something?

243 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:31:48pm

re: #242 FrogMarch

Random seems silly-- Like a waste of time and energy. Is it supposed to make us feel like they are actually doing something?

Yes. This is security theater, pure and simple, with the goal still being to present the appearance of providing security by doing something more inconvenient.

244 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:34:02pm

re: #241 SixDegrees

Nonetheless, aQ is a very specific, particular organization with a number of unique traits. That's what Charles was referring to. Nowhere did he suggest that there was any sort of hoax occurring.

Well then we both might be saying something similar. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

245 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:34:39pm

re: #237 abolitionist

The misogyny in islamic culture (honor killings, cutting off noses and ears, and in more recent times, acid thrown in faces) predates Mohammad by at least a thousand years.

I'm not an expert on Hebrew history, but it is evident from some old writings (Book of Ezekiel, for instance), and some modern ones (documents for Jehovah's Witnesses, circa 1970) that harsh attitudes toward women were not uncommon in ancient times. What's worse, those attitudes were extended by some to international relations, trade, and alliances, with devastating consequences. For engaging in unsanctioned trade and making treaties with its immediate neighbors (Egypt and Syria), ancient Judea and Israel (Jerusalem) were compared, metaphorically, to disloyal wives, and utterly crushed. The Babylonian Captivity followed.

I suspect this is not irrelevant to issues of antisemitism down thru the ages.

Yes, as to antisemitism. I think we were talking about the role of AQ upthread in regard to this incident. More modern history. As to that, I don't think ancient history really makes a difference, other than it's fueled by antisemitism, but it's more than that. It's anti-Western, too.

Actually in the ancient world, Judaism afforded women more respect than other cultures. We have matriarchs that were just as honored as our patriarchs, Miriam, Deborah, Ruth, Esther, Sarah, Rachel etc.

Our laws were different, too, for instance with regard to inheritance which was a big deal in the ancient world. Daughters could inherit land whereas they could not in Christian and Muslim culture.

246 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:36:01pm

re: #243 Bobibutu So apparantly part of the new security rules require passengrs to remain seated for 1 hour prior to landing and have no access to thier carry ons or have anything in their laps for that hour. I'm not sure how that was supposed to prvent this idiot from igniting something that was attached to his leg...But it sure is gonna make those 18 hour flights seem even longer and more horrible.
Popcorn and a soft drink anyone?

247 Blueheron  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:37:24pm

re: #246 Escaped Hillbilly

So apparantly part of the new security rules require passengrs to remain seated for 1 hour prior to landing and have no access to thier carry ons or have anything in their laps for that hour. I'm not sure how that was supposed to prvent this idiot from igniting something that was attached to his leg...But it sure is gonna make those 18 hour flights seem even longer and more horrible.
Popcorn and a soft drink anyone?

Better not. You might have to use the restroom./

248 jayzee  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:39:26pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Regarding inheritance, I really love that story of Noa (not Noach).

249 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:44:08pm

re: #247 Blueheron
After 18 hours on a flight, I'll need the cup, hold the ice, and the soft drink.
So if the passenger who dove across the seats had fastened his seat belt like a good boy, and the othe passengers had put their water bottles away per the new rules, who would have stopped the nut job with the firey britches?

250 jayzee  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:44:52pm

Whether or not this guy was AQ or not remains to be seen. Whether he was aligned with another AQ offshoot too remains to be seen, I don't think we will know everything until we're supposed to. The fact it was a single act or failed does not necessarily eliminate AQ though. What would be worse actually is if OBL's dream has come true and we now have an up tick in lone wolf Muslim terrorist activity. While stupid (often) these guys tend not to leave much of a footprint to track.

251 Ojoe  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:46:40pm

re: #190 FrogMarch

It would be big. Ultimately this is heading to a bad end, unless the other side does some drastic self-reforming.

252 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:48:58pm

re: #240 FrogMarch

How did this guy slip through the stricter international travel cracks? I hope we will find out. I think most or all one-way tickets purchased (out of nations that are known to breed hostility, perhaps?) should be an automatic screening requirement.
Anyone could potentially be a terrorist, but so far, it hasn't been just anyone. It's been one specific group. Our energy and focus should be spent on those who really are raising red flags. Not just the lets-make-it-random-so-it's-perceived-as fair nonsense.

What you're promoting is unconstitutional, of course. At least in this country.

What would you propose? Anyone that even looked Middle Eastern be automatically pulled aside for screening? That would probably mean many American Jews, Italians, Greeks, Pakistanis, too.

Or they ask you your religion? If you say Muslim, you're pulled from the line? Most Muslims are not terrorists. The problem is that the small percentage of who is causes a great deal of pain for the rest of us.

It's not efficient, nor smart, nor constitutional. We have the science to do this right.

This guy fit the bill, period, for what seems like a number of reasons that were missed.

253 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:19pm

re: #252 marjoriemoon
It isn't actually unconstitutional. Point to the part that says you can't question and screen people differently based upon their nationality. However, it is ineffective for some of the reasons you pointed out. People keep saying the naked xray is wrong or unconstitutional...why? You don not have to buy a ticket on a plane. I'd feel a lot better flying on it if I knew you had nothing in your skivvies. And not everybody gets a peak. The difference between this technique and all others? It works. How about let the airlines who want to use it, use it, but they have to advertise it. "Delta...we use naked xrays on everybody." "Amerian...we never use those thingees." Let the public decide, safety, or privacy.

254 Bob Dillon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:56pm

Interestingly, or apparently, Air Canada has revised their statements -- their website as of 1730 ET no longer mentions anything about "sitting for the final hour" that we saw earlier today. For all we know, that was just TSA being over-protective in their recommendations to foreign carriers.

255 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:09:36pm

re: #254 Bobibutu

Lets hope. Sounds likely.

256 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:41pm

re: #5 William of Orange

Interesting Picture. I suppose we wont have to hear about all the disgruntled poverty stricken disenfranchised youth who have nowhere to turn but to Jihad. Here we have a good looking son of a Bank of Nigeria Chairman, living in a luxury flat in London. Seems to me we should have known that he would end up doing something like this.
On another note, I believe this young man contacted me a few months ago by email to inquire as to whether I could help him recover millions of dollars from a long forgotten bank account belonging to his dead "uncle".

257 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:28pm

re: #253 Escaped Hillbilly

It isn't actually unconstitutional. Point to the part that says you can't question and screen people differently based upon their nationality. However, it is ineffective for some of the reasons you pointed out. People keep saying the naked xray is wrong or unconstitutional...why? You don not have to buy a ticket on a plane. I'd feel a lot better flying on it if I knew you had nothing in your skivvies. And not everybody gets a peak. The difference between this technique and all others? It works. How about let the airlines who want to use it, use it, but they have to advertise it. "Delta...we use naked xrays on everybody." "Amerian...we never use those thingees." Let the public decide, safety, or privacy.

Totally with ya.

258 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:16pm

re: #257 marjoriemoon

Totally with ya.

Agreed. They can ogle my unshapely middle aged body all they want. I'm buying the x-ray tickets.

259 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:38:04pm

Well, my son's back from the Home Depot. Time to get to work. See ya.

260 trace  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:57:08pm

I prefer the method that Archie Bunker proposed to stop hijackings to Cuba in the 70's;
"Give every passenger a pistol when boarding.................."

261 littlegreenbill  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 11:50:30pm

If it happened to be that a lot of Jews committed these types of acts I would not have a problem if they took Jews aside during boarding in greater numbers and gave us a more thorough search.

It would be our burden as Jews to make sure all other Jews do not do something like this in the name of Judaism. It's called taking responsibility.

Until we can convince our own people to not do something bad in our name, it remains our responsibility and if society looks suspiciously at us that is OUR OWN FAULT!


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