Left Becomes Right Becomes Left

PoliticsDecember 2009 • Views: 2,494

Remember how the left would hyperventilate and complain about President Bush playing golf instead of [fill in the blank]? And remember how the right would rush to Bush’s defense, pointing out that a President is never actually out of touch “on vacation,” but is constantly kept informed about breaking developments?

Well, we’ve really come full circle now: This Guy Really Wants to Be President, Except When We Need Him to Be a President - Jim Geraghty.

In other words, at the exact moment when skeptics like myself are most ready to hear from him, eager to hear from him, and eager to know what, if anything, is needed from the citizenry at this moment, there was a “strategy” of keeping the president away from cameras … and golfing.

Jump to bottom

225 comments

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:08:42am

At least they aren't questioning the timing or claiming it was an inside job.

wrenchwench Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:10:02am

At least it's not a "strategery."

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:10:15am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

At least they aren't questioning the timing or claiming it was an inside job.

Not yet anyway. ;)

Mich-again Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:10:54am

The moronic convergence on display again.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:12:18am

Iran body count up to fifteen...

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:12:32am

The American public has been electing people based on image for several cycles now. We are reaping what we sew.

Sooner or later Obama is going to get the Katrina treatment (slammed for something that wasn't his fault and not within the federal jurisdiction) because the public doesn't know what a Union of states or a representative demoracy really is. When politicians (or their image creators) claim to be the solution to all of our problems they will eventually get blamed for all of our problems.

A little more personal responsibility would be refreshing on tha part of all American citizens and those we support.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:12:44am

I remember that argument when he was at the Bush's ranch at Crawford, dubbed the "Western White House."

I'm sure Obama has a similar set up in Hawaii.

He does work less and golf more than Bush, though.

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:13:10am

re: #3 beekiller

Not yet anyway. ;)

...he is black, after all. and African.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #2 wrenchwench

At least it's not a "strategery."

I think you've misunderestimated the administration's nefarious malfeasance.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:14:27am

I still see it as left being the left.

Like screaming about spending and deficits and then outdoing what they were so "outraged" over by multiples.

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:15:25am

Hypocracy is bipartisan.

darthstar Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:16:36am

If memory serves me correctly, and I could be wrong because this incident happened sooo long ago (/), this was a failed attempt due to passenger response and the guy's now in jail. It's a legal matter, and the appropriate authorities are handling it. Maybe President Obama should have hopped on AF1 and flown to Kansas, then Colorado, then Montana, then Florida, then Washington, and then given a prime-time address to the nation so Jim Geraghty could complain about it being a secret plot by the president to pre-empt Wheel of Fortune.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:17:34am

re: #12 darthstar

If memory serves me correctly, and I could be wrong because this incident happened sooo long ago (/), this was a failed attempt due to passenger response and the guy's now in jail. It's a legal matter, and the appropriate authorities are handling it. Maybe President Obama should have hopped on AF1 and flown to Kansas, then Colorado, then Montana, then Florida, then Washington, and then given a prime-time address to the nation so Jim Geraghty could complain about it being a secret plot by the president to pre-empt Wheel of Fortune.

Just another day at the office.

We are not at war.

It's gang violence.

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:17:40am

re: #7 Ben Hur

I remember that argument when he was at the Bush's ranch at Crawford, dubbed the "Western White House."

I'm sure Obama has a similar set up in Hawaii.

He does work less and golf more than Bush, though.

You've got to be kidding.

darthstar Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:18:39am

re: #7 Ben Hur

I remember that argument when he was at the Bush's ranch at Crawford, dubbed the "Western White House."

I'm sure Obama has a similar set up in Hawaii.

He does work less and golf more than Bush, though.

President Bush had taken 47 days of vacation before 9/11 (that's 47 days of vacation in his first eight months...9 weeks out of 32). I don't believe President Obama has taken nearly that many days of vacation yet.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:18:46am

President Barack Obama has only been in office for just over nine months, but he's already hit the links as much as President Bush did in over two years.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:19:34am

re: #15 darthstar

President Bush had taken 47 days of vacation before 9/11 (that's 47 days of vacation in his first eight months...9 weeks out of 32). I don't believe President Obama has taken nearly that many days of vacation yet.

47 days of vacation, eh?

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:19:40am

What do you do when a dead man is more dangerous than a live one?

Ali Mousavi's Body Taken From Hospital, Family Says

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:20:15am

re: #15 darthstar

President Bush had taken 47 days of vacation before 9/11 (that's 47 days of vacation in his first eight months...9 weeks out of 32). I don't believe President Obama has taken nearly that many days of vacation yet.

where did he go?

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:20:29am

I sense a debate coming on the relative merits of golfing vs. clearing brush on the ranch.

With the whole Tiger Woods fiasco I'm surprised the first lady even lets the President leave the White House with his own putter.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:22:02am

re: #15 darthstar

President Bush had taken 47 days of vacation before 9/11 (that's 47 days of vacation in his first eight months...9 weeks out of 32). I don't believe President Obama has taken nearly that many days of vacation yet.

Of course you'll never agree that it was called the "Western WHite House" for a reason, and was fully staffed, etc.

It's been a short time, but I know what your argument will be before you make.

You hold the party line on every subject.

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:22:22am

re: #19 albusteve

where did he go?

Just a little dose of left wingnuts popping up despite their best efforts to contain themselves.

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:23:04am

re: #6 DaddyG

The American public has been electing people based on image for several cycles now. We are reaping what we sew.

Sooner or later Obama is going to get the Katrina treatment (slammed for something that wasn't his fault and not within the federal jurisdiction) because the public doesn't know what a Union of states or a representative demoracy really is. When politicians (or their image creators) claim to be the solution to all of our problems they will eventually get blamed for all of our problems.

A little more personal responsibility would be refreshing on tha part of all American citizens and those we support.

I don't agree with that at all. Not that I want to argue about Katrina, but the safety of Americans IS the concern of our government, whether from natural disaster or say maybe a terrorist attack.

If someone exploded a bomb in New Orleans and the Bush response was the same, would that have been acceptable?

Bush spent 487 days at Camp David. I believe that marks more vacation time than any president before him.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:23:24am

Presidents don't take, like, vacations?...you know

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:25:25am

re: #16 Ben Hur

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Golfing more is not equivalent to working less. You might want to get off that party line that you are holding to so tightly.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:25:45am

But listen. It's his perogative.

The world is coming to an end around everycorner, crisis and fear, crisis and fear.

If we don't pass the stimulus the world will end tomorrow.

If we don't pass the health care (months ago) the economy will collapse (months ago) because people aren't paying their mortgages to pay their medical bills.

If we don't pass climate bills (which haven't happened) the world will end tomorrow.

Iran is burning.

Unemployment at 10%.

CEOs and small business owners working round the clock, feeling the heavy load, take a shitload of vacation time.

Chicken Little didn't go golfing or vacation.

Mich-again Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:25:58am

If Obama golfs like he bowls he'll shoot a 38.

Gus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:26:11am

Eager to hear from him and have him speak live on television for what? Most Americans were watching football over the weekend, recovering from a Christmas hangover, stuffing their faces, shopping, or on a weekend bender.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:26:23am

gettin some beach time at Camp David...do some dancing, maybe take a tour up the jungle river looking at alligators, ride some roller coasters, that sort of thing

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:26:52am

re: #25 recusancy

Golfing more is not equivalent to working less. You might want to get off that party line that you are holding to so tightly.

Haha.

Nice one, Centurion.

Left is right is left is right, indeed.

Mich-again Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:26:56am

re: #28 Gus 802

Eager to hear from him and have him speak live on television for what?

So they can bitch about every word he says. Thats why.

Gus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:27:33am

re: #31 Mich-again

So they can bitch about every word he says. Thats why.

Yep. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:27:44am

We do compare, we don't compare, we don't compare.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:27:50am

re: #25 recusancy

Golfing more is not equivalent to working less. You might want to get off that party line that you are holding to so tightly.

shooting 3s even even more work than golfing...anyway you aren't gonna take any of this stuff too serious are you?

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:29:17am

I used to complain when an old boss went golfing 2-3 days a week and left me alone in the office to deal with things. After a while, I realized that the most of the contracts I was "dealing" with appeard directly after the golf games.

I don't for a minute think that any POTUS actually get's a vacation from anything. He get's a change of scenery.

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #34 albusteve

shooting 3s even even more work than golfing...anyway you aren't gonna take any of this stuff too serious are you?

No. It just pissed me off that Benny boy said that Obama works less.

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #28 Gus 802

Eager to hear from him and have him speak live on television for what? Most Americans were watching football over the weekend, recovering from a Christmas hangover, stuffing their faces, shopping, or on a weekend bender.

If they had interrupted Cowboys/Redskins, or the Giants beatdown, to show any speech of any kind, I would today be trying to claim that yes, indeed, the TV's warranty does cover a remote control thrown through the screen.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:29:45am

re: #28 Gus 802

Eager to hear from him and have him speak live on television for what? Most Americans were watching football over the weekend, recovering from a Christmas hangover, stuffing their faces, shopping, or on a weekend bender.

he can keep his thoughts to himself...I really don't care what he has to say, and in this case there is little to be said anyway

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:29:57am

re: #28 Gus 802

Eager to hear from him and have him speak live on television for what? Most Americans were watching football over the weekend, recovering from a Christmas hangover, stuffing their faces, shopping, or on a weekend bender.

I have friends who didn't even know there was an attempted terror attack this weekend. When informed them, I got a blank stare.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:30:36am

How are you-all this morning?

vxbush Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:31:19am

re: #35 ggt

I used to complain when an old boss went golfing 2-3 days a week and left me alone in the office to deal with things. After a while, I realized that the most of the contracts I was "dealing" with appeard directly after the golf games.

I don't for a minute think that any POTUS actually get's a vacation from anything. He get's a change of scenery.

I agree. However, I hope he isn't trying to deal with national security issues on a golf course. It would be very easy to point a directional microphone at him and his staff and pick up what they are saying. It's not a secure site.

Gus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:31:27am

re: #39 beekiller

I have friends who didn't even know there was an attempted terror attack this weekend. When informed them, I got a blank stare.

I was almost going to mention that. Think I'll try that later and ask some people "what do you think about what happened on Flight 253." I'm sure I'll get some blank stares.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:31:33am

re: #36 recusancy

No. It just pissed me off that Benny boy said that Obama works less.

Because it's been reported that he does.

Amazing how he can do NOTHING less than Bush.

There is a polar equivalent to ODS.

Relax, big guy. Just because he golfed more in less time, doesn't mean he's not the messiah.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:31:43am

re: #36 recusancy

No. It just pissed me off that Benny boy said that Obama works less.

Benny boy?...why are you so easily pissed and unjolly?

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:32:35am

re: #39 beekiller

I have friends who didn't even know there was an attempted terror attack this weekend. When informed them, I got a blank stare.

probably Eagles fans

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:33:10am

And again, I'm sure he has an equivalent set up as the Western White House and Camp David, which I'm sure is not a summer camp, but some other type of government camp.

No president is totally out of the loop.

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:33:21am

re: #35 ggt

I used to complain when an old boss went golfing 2-3 days a week and left me alone in the office to deal with things. After a while, I realized that the most of the contracts I was "dealing" with appeard directly after the golf games.

I don't for a minute think that any POTUS actually get's a vacation from anything. He get's a change of scenery.

Whether it makes a difference or not is probably perception. However, Bush was rightly (in my view) criticized for his overabundance of vacation time.

From this CBS, December 24th article:

So far, President Obama has taken only 15 vacation days. He had a four-day weekend at home in Chicago last February and spend eight days on Martha's Vineyard in August.

So what's the problem?

With all respect, ggt, your boss wasn't the leader of the free world :)

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:33:49am

re: #44 albusteve

Benny boy?...why are you so easily pissed and unjolly?

Not at all!

It's fun watching the twisting.

Mich-again Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:33:59am

Who's he playing golf with? Who's counting strokes? Does he take Mulligans or use the shoe wedge?

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:34:14am

When there's a major emergency (Katrina,9/11) I want to hear from the Pres and know that he's on top of it or at least see some action. When there's a minor incident at an airport I don't want to hear from him because we don't need to be freaking out about everything and turning every two-bit al quaeda wanna be into a super villain, and send the populace to the stores to stock up on duct tape and food rations because they think the world's gonna end.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:34:30am

re: #36 recusancy

No. It just pissed me off that Benny boy said that Obama works less.

You don't beleive thats true, and not just for Obama but for ANY President we've had?

When in Washington in the White House, you don't think that every minute of every day isn't filled with meetings and calls, a steady stream of people (staff, elected officials, visiting dignitaries) in and out of the Oval Office?
Yes, while on "vacation' they are being kept up to date of all breaking developements, but it's nowehere as intense as when they are IN the White House (unless of course something catastrohic were to happen)

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:34:57am

re: #45 albusteve

probably Eagles fans

I'll bet if Obama went to the field during halftime, Eagles fans would throw snowballs at him

Jack Burton Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:35:07am

re: #39 beekiller

I have friends who didn't even know there was an attempted terror attack this weekend. When informed them, I got a blank stare.

The operative word there is attempted. If 9/11 had been thwarted by airport security and nothing happened, I'm sure there would have been a similar reaction among some people. No one would remember it today either.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:35:52am

No. It just pissed me off that Benny boy said that Obama works less.

unjolly and pissed...as if he has a personal stake in BOs work habits

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #47 marjoriemoon

So what's the problem?

With all respect, ggt, your boss wasn't the leader of the free world :)

Again, what is termed "vacation" isn't the same for a POTUS as it is for the rest of us. Where they are IMHO, doesn't really matter. Communications, visitors and staff follow.

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #51 sattv4u2

You don't beleive thats true, and not just for Obama but for ANY President we've had?

When in Washington in the White House, you don't think that every minute of every day isn't filled with meetings and calls, a steady stream of people (staff, elected officials, visiting dignitaries) in and out of the Oval Office?
Yes, while on "vacation' they are being kept up to date of all breaking developements, but it's nowehere as intense as when they are IN the White House (unless of course something catastrohic were to happen)

I agree which is why it annoyed me to see the ODS that Ben was spouting.

Mich-again Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:36:49am

My question about the indictment from what I read is that it leaves attempted murder off the list of crimes. I don't get that. If you are accusing him of trying to destroy a plane in midflight, doesn't it follow that he was trying to kill everyone on board? What, are they waiting to file more charges later. As I saw it, it carried a maximum sentence of 20 years. WTF?

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:37:04am

re: #56 recusancy

I agree which is why it annoyed me to see the ODS that Ben was spouting.

he stated he's working less

How is that ODS if you AGREE with me that he is (wait for it) WORKING LESS!

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:37:09am

re: #50 recusancy

When there's a major emergency (Katrina,9/11) I want to hear from the Pres and know that he's on top of it or at least see some action. When there's a minor incident at an airport I don't want to hear from him because we don't need to be freaking out about everything and turning every two-bit al quaeda wanna be into a super villain, and send the populace to the stores to stock up on duct tape and food rations because they think the world's gonna end.

Wow.

That really is delusional.

100%

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:37:22am

re: #50 recusancy

When there's a major emergency (Katrina,9/11) I want to hear from the Pres and know that he's on top of it or at least see some action. When there's a minor incident at an airport I don't want to hear from him because we don't need to be freaking out about everything and turning every two-bit al quaeda wanna be into a super villain, and send the populace to the stores to stock up on duct tape and food rations because they think the world's gonna end.

MINOR incident at an airport?.....YIKES!

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:37:41am

re: #50 recusancy

Knowing that some guy just waltzed onto an airplane with a bomb that could have blown it that airplane out of the sky makes me want to go stock up on stuff, yes. The fact it didn't work because the guy was too incompetent is no consolation, imagine what a guy that actually knows what he's doing could still do.

But hey, no problem. Minor scuffle at an airport.

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:38:15am

re: #58 sattv4u2

he stated he's working less

How is that ODS if you AGREE with me that he is (wait for it) WORKING LESS!

You said that even when he's not at the whitehouse he's still working. I didn't say he was working more or less then Bush. I don't know. Neither does he. So he shouldn't have said it.

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:38:16am

airline industry is going to suffer from this one.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #13 Ben Hur

Just another day at the office.

We are not at war.

It's gang violence.

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:39:40am

re: #52 cliffster

I'll bet if Obama went to the field during halftime, Eagles fans would throw snowballs at him

I saw that game...and the one where they cheered when M Irvin was carted of with a broken neck...Eagles fans are merciless

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:39:54am

re: #23 marjoriemoon

I don't agree with that at all. Not that I want to argue about Katrina, but the safety of Americans IS the concern of our government, whether from natural disaster or say maybe a terrorist attack.

If someone exploded a bomb in New Orleans and the Bush response was the same, would that have been acceptable?

Bush spent 487 days at Camp David. I believe that marks more vacation time than any president before him.

The safety of New Orleans citizens was first and foremost the responsibility of Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Mary Landrieau. Bush could not have taken over that relief effort (Landrieau and Barber refused the offer to nationalize their guard units) short of violating the Posse Comitatus statutes. As soon as the Feds had permission they were there under General Honore.

Revisionist history aside Bush did not fail to respond to Katrina for reasons of race or political party.

There were organizational issues with FEMA and coordination issues with military units which were revisited and directives were revised in case of future large scale regional disasters.

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:40:04am

re: #42 Gus 802

I was almost going to mention that. Think I'll try that later and ask some people "what do you think about what happened on Flight 253." I'm sure I'll get some blank stares.

I'm positive that you will. It should be very interesting...please report back to us later.

I don't think the American people are on pins and needles waiting for President Obama to update us.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:40:14am

re: #62 recusancy

You said that even when he's not at the whitehouse he's still working. I didn't say he was working more or less then Bush. I don't know. Neither does he. So he shouldn't have said it.

I stated clearly that when he (or ANY Pres) is NOT in the white house they are WORKING LESS
You agreed with me, but called out Ben for ODS for saying it

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:40:40am

re: #56 recusancy

I agree which is why it annoyed me to see the ODS that Ben was spouting.

you need to raise your annoy bar...cheer up

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:41:00am

re: #69 albusteve

you need to raise your annoy bar...cheer up

really!

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:41:19am

re: #68 sattv4u2

I stated clearly that when he (or ANY Pres) is NOT in the white house they are WORKING LESS
You agreed with me, but called out Ben for ODS for saying it

Then I skimmed your post too fast.

webevintage Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:41:41am

[Link: thehill.com...]

"Obama scores well for first year on ethics, say watchdog groups"

Interesting little story, but the best part is the explosion of crazy in the comments.
via Balloon Juice...

Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:42:15am

re: #66 DaddyG

The safety of New Orleans citizens was first and foremost the responsibility of Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Mary Landrieau. Bush could not have taken over that relief effort (Landrieau and Barber refused the offer to nationalize their guard units) short of violating the Posse Comitatus statutes. As soon as the Feds had permission they were there under General Honore.

Revisionist history aside Bush did not fail to respond to Katrina for reasons of race or political party.

There were organizational issues with FEMA and coordination issues with military units which were revisited and directives were revised in case of future large scale regional disasters.

Correct, in our form of government, the Individual is responsible FIRST, then it goes down the ladder. Which is difficult for many to comprehend. The Individual is at the top and the POTUS at the bottom in matters of domestic security.

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #50 recusancy

When there's a major emergency (Katrina,9/11) I want to hear from the Pres and know that he's on top of it or at least see some action. When there's a minor incident at an airport I don't want to hear from him because we don't need to be freaking out about everything and turning every two-bit al quaeda wanna be into a super villain, and send the populace to the stores to stock up on duct tape and food rations because they think the world's gonna end.

In all fairness, Obama came out with a statement immediately after the NW airline attack. Any president (including Bush) would have done the same.

But since the TSA is part of the Dept of Homeland Security which is a federal department, then yes, I think the President should be pow-wowing with the appropriate dept heads and I'm supposing he did.

Ironically, the Katrina aftermath was handled by the Dept of Homeland Security which prevented truckloads of supplies from getting to those who needed it because they had to check for bombs. And then there's the whole restructuring of FEMA into Homeland Security so it had absolutely no teeth left to do anything meaningful in regard to natural disasters.

Everyone in this country should be outraged at the poor response (and preparation) to Katrina especially since there were a number of damaging hurricanes prior.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:42:31am

re: #57 Mich-again

My question about the indictment from what I read is that it leaves attempted murder off the list of crimes. I don't get that. If you are accusing him of trying to destroy a plane in midflight, doesn't it follow that he was trying to kill everyone on board? What, are they waiting to file more charges later. As I saw it, it carried a maximum sentence of 20 years. WTF?

yes, and me too....his 'crime' is a twenty year felony I think.....that's criminalism for you

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:42:33am

re: #66 DaddyG

Hurricane relief planning and execution runs quite smoothly for Florida, and it was awful in Louisiana. Any guess as to why? Hint: it's not the federal government.

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:42:51am

I don't think the world is going to end because of what happened in Detroit. If we are supposed to be frightened to death every time there's an attempted attack then we're going to be scared the rest of our lives. Terrorism isn't going away anytime soon.

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:43:16am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

First of all, I was responding to someone stating that the attempting bombing, sorry, destruction, of a plane (with people on it, yet not Recusancy) as a run of the mill crime.

And about Bush speaking:

I don't recall.

I recall the knee-jerk crap NOT to call acts of terror, terror - like LAX, SEattle.

But I don't remember about attempts.

For me, this wasn;t an attempt, it was an attack.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:43:43am

re: #71 recusancy

Then I skimmed your post too fast.

Okay ,, so ,,, now

Do you agree that ANY President works LESS when on vacation than if they are in Washington?

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:43:52am

re: #69 albusteve

you need to raise your annoy bar...cheer up

albusteve telling someone to cheer up. Good lord, what's next? Bill Cowher telling people to just laugh more?

Gus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:02am

re: #67 beekiller

I'm positive that you will. It should be very interesting...please report back to us later.

I don't think the American people are on pins and needles waiting for President Obama to update us.

Most of the time when I talk about news to strangers I get the typical "oh I can't watch the news it's too depressing" response. Also, most people aren't watching ABC, CBS, NBC or Fox News.

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:36am

re: #76 cliffster

Hurricane relief planning and execution runs quite smoothly for Florida, and it was awful in Louisiana. Any guess as to why? Hint: it's not the federal government.

The major cities in Florida also aren't located dozens of feet below sea level and prevented from flooding during normal conditions by levees.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:41am

re: #80 cliffster

albusteve telling someone to cheer up. Good lord, what's next? Bill Cowher telling people to just laugh more?

Bill Belichik giving detailed injury reports!

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #72 webevintage

Scores well on ethics? Interesting given that how many tax cheats did he nominate to key positions? Geithner. Solis. Daschle. Etc. Yeah, great ethics there - particularly in the way that he excused their tax offenses in the rush to get them confirmed.

I'd say that he's got a B+. /

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:49am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

Obviously not.

And I'm sure the WH's comment about not politicizing the attack was pre-emption to save her job.

Ft. Hood wasn't that long ago, either.

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

uh no....she already botched her talkshow statements....she's totally incompetent....what makes you think she can handle anything?...she's a lacky

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:08am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

I have no issue with Obama not making a prime-time speech. But I do take issue with the attempt to downplay the incident as "no big deal".

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #79 sattv4u2

Okay ,, so ,,, now

Do you agree that ANY President works LESS when on vacation than if they are in Washington?

I don't know. Which is what I stated. But if you want to use that as a bar for working less then Bush worked less. He went on month long vacations for god's sake.

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:24am

I'd rather see the minimum wage TSA agent at the airport security gate on top of individual terrorists than the President any day.

National policy on detaining emeny combatants however is another matter.

rwmofo Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:42am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

We are at war. What would you like the president to do?

Did Bush pop out of Texas and make a speech about every unsuccessful terror attempt? If so, I'm sorry that I never registered it, or checked to see if he had. This is something Napolitano can take care of.

Agreed. A US President can't be everywhere covering the most minute details of all things that touch our daily lives.

But I'd feel safer if Obama were a security agent in Amsterdam, cuz he would have stopped that guy before he got on the plane.

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:46:13am

re: #76 cliffster

Hurricane Andrew had something to do with that - causing a massive change in the way that the state and local authorities handled matters.

And Katrina also involved serious, widespread, and prolonged flooding, a situation that isn't always found in hurricanes that hit Florida.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:46:45am

re: #88 recusancy

I don't know. Which is what I stated. But if you want to use that as a bar for working less then Bush worked less. He went on month long vacations for god's sake.

Oh for f*cks sake

Go back and read IN ITS ENTIRETY #51

webevintage Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:46:59am

re: #82 drcordell

The major cities in Florida also aren't located dozens of feet below sea level and prevented from flooding during normal conditions by levees.

Indeed.
What happened in NOLA was a state and federal clusterfuck.

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:06am

re: #66 DaddyG

The safety of New Orleans citizens was first and foremost the responsibility of Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Mary Landrieau. Bush could not have taken over that relief effort (Landrieau and Barber refused the offer to nationalize their guard units) short of violating the Posse Comitatus statutes. As soon as the Feds had permission they were there under General Honore.

Revisionist history aside Bush did not fail to respond to Katrina for reasons of race or political party.

There were organizational issues with FEMA and coordination issues with military units which were revisited and directives were revised in case of future large scale regional disasters.

Yes, the preparation is the responsibility local and state government. The aftermath has to be handled by federal because everyone locally is incapacitated.

FEMA worked under Clinton. It didn't work under Bush. Under Clinton it was run by people with disaster experience. Not so under Bush.

I'm a survivor of quite a few hurricanes, the worst were Andrew, Wilma and Katrina.

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:24am

re: #92 sattv4u2

Oh for f*cks sake

Go back and read IN ITS ENTIRETY #51

Where is the fun in reading your entire post when we can react to a cherry picked statement?! /

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:33am

re: #85 Ben Hur

Obviously not.

And I'm sure the WH's comment about not politicizing the attack was pre-emption to save her job.

Ft. Hood wasn't that long ago, either.

TSA publishing secret screening policies on the internet? (and I'll bet it wasn't even over https)

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:44am

And Katrina was the first hurricane to ever hit NO/Lousiana.

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:58am

re: #93 webevintage

Indeed.
What happened in NOLA was a state and federal clusterfuck.

And these are the people that are crafting a Health Care bill !?!?!?!

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:48:46am

re: #76 cliffster

Hurricane relief planning and execution runs quite smoothly for Florida, and it was awful in Louisiana. Any guess as to why? Hint: it's not the federal government.

Florida is above sea-level so after every major hurricane the water goes away?

100

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:49:04am

re: #87 cliffster

I have no issue with Obama not making a prime-time speech. But I do take issue with the attempt to downplay the incident as "no big deal".

I'd rather have the President downplay the incident as opposed to ratchet up the public's fear for political gain. Even accounting for terror attacks, flying on a plane will always be extremely safe statistically. The terrorists succeed in disrupting the economy and crippling airlines not by posing a systematic threat to air safety, but by sowing terror. That's why the President wants to downplay this as an isolated incident.

101

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:49:26am

re: #91 lawhawk

Hurricane Andrew had something to do with that - causing a massive change in the way that the state and local authorities handled matters.

And Katrina also involved serious, widespread, and prolonged flooding, a situation that isn't always found in hurricanes that hit Florida.

People also forget - Katrina was followed 3 weeks later by Rita, which devastated the OTHER side of Louisiana, and also much of Texas.

Most shelters had plans for being open for a few days after a hurricane - standard. After Katrina, shelters had to be open for WEEKS, which was unprecedented.

That was a very difficult year.

102

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:49:30am

re: #76 cliffster

Hurricane relief planning and execution runs quite smoothly for Florida, and it was awful in Louisiana. Any guess as to why? Hint: it's not the federal government.

It ran smoothly under a different administration. Whether you think that makes a difference or if just coincidence I guess is your call.

103

rwmofo Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:50:26am

re: #88 recusancy

I don't know. Which is what I stated. But if you want to use that as a bar for working less then Bush worked less. He went on month long vacations for god's sake.

The President and congress always go on vacation in August. This didn't start when Bush was elected.

104

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:51:11am

re: #92 sattv4u2

Oh for f*cks sake

Go back and read IN ITS ENTIRETY #51

ok... Bush was out of the whitehouse more on vacation.

105

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:51:36am

re: #94 marjoriemoon

Yes, the preparation is the responsibility local and state government. The aftermath has to be handled by federal because everyone locally is incapacitated.

FEMA worked under Clinton. It didn't work under Bush. Under Clinton it was run by people with disaster experience. Not so under Bush.

I'm a survivor of quite a few hurricanes, the worst were Andrew, Wilma and Katrina.

In fairness Clinton didn't have a Katrina to deal with and the local government in Florida and Mississippi were more competent in coordinating with the Feds. I'm not claiming there weren't FEMA issues with Katrina but I don't believe for a minute that Bush is the evil incompetent President who let blacks drown on purpose or though neglect.

My original point was that sooner or later as the Federal Executive is looked to as the savior of all our problems then the Federal Executive is going to get slammed when he can't prevent the unpreventable. Obama will face his own Katrina's and God help us all if we wait for someone in Washington to bail us out from every man made or natural disaster.

"...a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." -Gerald R Ford

106

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:51:45am

Does anyone here think that the President doesn't get a PDB on a daily basis - vacation or otherwise? Does anything think that the President isn't always in contact with the Chief of Staff, Department heads, Generals, Cabinet members, as necessary, and on a daily basis to be apprised of situations as they arise and continuing crises?

Of course they do - even when they're on "vacation" at Camp David or the Western White House or the Hawaiian White House.

But, at the same time - managing the image of the President is something that Obama really needs to take more seriously - playing golf in the hours following NW Airlines situation unfolds doesn't play well on TV. You would think that someone who did such a good job of managing his image during the campaign would realize this. It's an unforced error.

Much more important is how DHS is handling matters - and Napolitano once again has shown herself to be a failure - first claiming that security did its job? Sorry, but that was an epic fail on the government's part - and an epic save on the part of the passenger who jumped Mutallab to prevent him from blowing up the plane.

107

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:51:58am

re: #102 marjoriemoon

It ran smoothly under a different administration. Whether you think that makes a difference or if just coincidence I guess is your call.

Clearly a complete coincidence. Just like the Bush recession or 9/11. The buck stops here for Democrat Presidents. For Bush it just keeps sailing past him till it hits someone convenient.

108

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:52:03am

re: #82 drcordell

The major cities in Florida also aren't located dozens of feet below sea level and prevented from flooding during normal conditions by levees.

lowest point in NOLA is about 8-9ft....not dozens, if you are referring to that town

109

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:52:06am

re: #86 albusteve

uh no...she already botched her talkshow statements...she's totally incompetent...what makes you think she can handle anything?...she's a lacky

At least nobody said she did a heckuva job... Sounds like someone got on the phone to her and told her she sounded like an idiot and today she's trying to correct her statements rather than irrationally standing by them. I like acknowledgment of errors from public figures. Everyone will screw up, but I'll take the person who tries to fix it over the one who stubbornly denies the screw up any day.

110

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:52:21am

re: #97 Ben Hur

And Katrina was the first hurricane to ever hit NO/Lousiana.

eh?
No.

111

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:52:46am

re: #100 drcordell

I'd rather have the President downplay the incident as opposed to ratchet up the public's fear for political gain. Even accounting for terror attacks, flying on a plane will always be extremely safe statistically. The terrorists succeed in disrupting the economy and crippling airlines not by posing a systematic threat to air safety, but by sowing terror. That's why the President wants to downplay this as an isolated incident.

I think if the POTUS responded to every incident it would be a major propaganda coo for the enemy. They feed on the concept that they have power --the POTUS addressing every incident would give them what they crave.

112

jaunte Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:52:51am

Presidential vacations are odd things to complain about for either side, when their real complaint is what the President decides to do when he's working.

113

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:53:36am

re: #106 lawhawk

Does anyone here think that the President doesn't get a PDB on a daily basis - vacation or otherwise? Does anything think that the President isn't always in contact with the Chief of Staff, Department heads, Generals, Cabinet members, as necessary, and on a daily basis to be apprised of situations as they arise and continuing crises?

Of course they do - even when they're on "vacation" at Camp David or the Western White House or the Hawaiian White House.

But, at the same time - managing the image of the President is something that Obama really needs to take more seriously - playing golf in the hours following NW Airlines situation unfolds doesn't play well on TV. You would think that someone who did such a good job of managing his image during the campaign would realize this. It's an unforced error.

Much more important is how DHS is handling matters - and Napolitano once again has shown herself to be a failure - first claiming that security did its job? Sorry, but that was an epic fail on the government's part - and an epic save on the part of the passenger who jumped Mutallab to prevent him from blowing up the plane.

The flight originated in Amsterdam. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe DHS has any agents working in Dutch airports. It was a Dutch airport security worker who screened the BallBomber, not DHS.

114

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #104 recusancy

ok... Bush was out of the whitehouse more on vacation.

"vacation" is a media term. They could just as easily say "working at a different location", but it wouldn't bring in the ad revenue.

115

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:54:16am

re: #91 lawhawk

Hurricane Andrew had something to do with that - causing a massive change in the way that the state and local authorities handled matters.

And Katrina also involved serious, widespread, and prolonged flooding, a situation that isn't always found in hurricanes that hit Florida.

It's hard to compare the two hurricanes, Andrew and Katrina. They were very different as hurricanes go, and hit different areas with different issues. Yes, flooding was the major issue in LA which we don't have here to THAT extent.

No one could blame anyone for the Andrew response and it honestly wasn't so great for the first 2-3 weeks. But we hadn't had a major hurricane hit for 25 years before Andrew. AFTER Andrew, I find little excuses to be acceptable.

116

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:54:19am

re: #113 drcordell

...the BallBomber...

Heh. Ding!

117

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:54:54am

re: #102 marjoriemoon

It ran smoothly under a different administration. Whether you think that makes a difference or if just coincidence I guess is your call.

90,000 square miles of devastated terrain, a major city taking it on the chin because of the failure of levees operated by state and local authorities and the ACoE?

FEMA failed the people of the Gulf Coast during Katrina, but so did everyone else, including many of those in positions of power in Louisiana who saw fit to ignore key infrastructure that might have prevented the damage in the first place.

No other storm imposed such widespread damage as Katrina.

And even with all the damage, NOLA still got lucky because it was hit with a glancing blow and not a direct hit.

118

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:55:03am

re: #103 rwmofo

The President and congress always go on vacation in August. This didn't start when Bush was elected.

Shhhhh ,,, Bush was the 1st President to ever go on vacation (Clinton/Nantucket Island) and Obama is the 1st to ever golf (Eisenhower/ Often)

119

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:55:31am

re: #105 DaddyG

In fairness Clinton didn't have a Katrina to deal with and the local government in Florida and Mississippi were more competent in coordinating with the Feds. I'm not claiming there weren't FEMA issues with Katrina but I don't believe for a minute that Bush is the evil incompetent President who let blacks drown on purpose or though neglect.
. . .

Exactly. The feds cannot just come in and take over. There need to be requests and direction from the state. Difficult to do while Blanco was napping and weeping and squabbling with Nagin on TV about who was in charge.

120

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:55:36am

re: #97 Ben Hur

And Katrina was the first hurricane to ever hit NO/Lousiana.

That's not true actually. The most deadly, yes.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

121

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #109 Cineaste

At least nobody said she did a heckuva job... Sounds like someone got on the phone to her and told her she sounded like an idiot and today she's trying to correct her statements rather than irrationally standing by them. I like acknowledgment of errors from public figures. Everyone will screw up, but I'll take the person who tries to fix it over the one who stubbornly denies the screw up any day.

Amen to that.

122

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:57:16am

re: #112 jaunte

Presidential vacations are odd things to complain about for either side, when their real complaint is what the President decides to do when he's working.

absolutely.

123

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:57:17am

re: #104 recusancy

ok... Bush was out of the whitehouse more on vacation.

could be because he was POTUS for 8 years while Obama has been there less than 1!

I dunno, just maybe!

124

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:57:18am

re: #103 rwmofo

The President and congress always go on vacation in August. This didn't start when Bush was elected.

Well, you can't call Bush typical:

George W. Bush is today making his final visit to Camp David as president.

He will likely miss the place: According to CBS News White House Correspondent Mark Knoller, today's trip marks Mr. Bush's 149th visit to the presidential retreat. The planned three-day stay, during which the president is being joined by family and former and current aides, will bring his total time spent at Camp David to all or part of 487 days.

Yes, that's 487 days. And Camp David is not even where the president has spent the most time when not at the White House: Knoller reports that Mr. Bush has made 77 visits to his ranch in Crawford during his presidency, and spent all or part of 490 days there.

125

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #120 marjoriemoon

That's not true actually. The most deadly, yes.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

he stated that tongue in cheek

126

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:58:31am

re: #113 drcordell

DHS manages our terrorist watch list? Or does that automagically appear out of the ether?

The DHS is responsible for putting together the watch lists, from the generic list to the one that requires secondary screening and the no-fly list.

So, if the DHS failed to put him on the secondary screening list, that's not the fault of the airport security guard in Amsterdam, but the bureaucrats in DHS who didn't do their damned job.

re: #115 marjoriemoon
Agreed.

127

avanti Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:58:40am

re: #21 Ben Hur

Of course you'll never agree that it was called the "Western WHite House" for a reason, and was fully staffed, etc.

It's been a short time, but I know what your argument will be before you make.

You hold the party line on every subject.

As opposed the the similarly staffed, but yet not named Pacific WH ?

128

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:58:42am

re: #99 Cineaste

Florida is above sea-level so after every major hurricane the water goes away?

We have a lot of flooding and low lying areas. The further south you go, the flooding gets worse.

The water maybe raises up to the handle of a car door, not up to a house roof.

I live in probably the only area of Miami-Dade county that is not a flood area.

129

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:58:50am

re: #109 Cineaste

At least nobody said she did a heckuva job... Sounds like someone got on the phone to her and told her she sounded like an idiot and today she's trying to correct her statements rather than irrationally standing by them. I like acknowledgment of errors from public figures. Everyone will screw up, but I'll take the person who tries to fix it over the one who stubbornly denies the screw up any day.

what makes her qualified for her position?...imo she's a lacky

130

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:23am

re: #124 Cineaste

Naval Support Facility Thurmont, popularly known as Camp David, is a mountain-based military camp in Frederick County, Maryland used as a country retreat of the President of the United States and his guests.
First known as Hi-Catoctin, Camp David was originally built as a camp for federal government agents and their families, by the WPA, starting in 1935, opening in 1938.[1] In 1942 it was converted to a presidential retreat by President Franklin D. Roosevelt and renamed U.S.S. Shangri-La. Camp David received its present name from Dwight Eisenhower, in honor of his grandson, Dwight David Eisenhower II.[2]

Just like a beach Hawaii!!

131

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:48am

re: #127 avanti

As opposed the the similarly staffed, but yet not named Pacific WH ?

They'll come up with one much cooler.

132

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:56am

re: #130 Ben Hur

Just like a beach Hawaii!!

133

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:58am

re: #117 lawhawk

90,000 square miles of devastated terrain, a major city taking it on the chin because of the failure of levees operated by state and local authorities and the ACoE?

FEMA failed the people of the Gulf Coast during Katrina, but so did everyone else, including many of those in positions of power in Louisiana who saw fit to ignore key infrastructure that might have prevented the damage in the first place.

No other storm imposed such widespread damage as Katrina.

And even with all the damage, NOLA still got lucky because it was hit with a glancing blow and not a direct hit.

There is also some evidence that the area where the breach occurred was leaking before the storm hit. People near the area had been complaining of leakage way before Katrina even formed. That situation was a disaster waiting to happen.

134

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #129 albusteve

what makes her qualified for her position?...imo she's a lacky

Political patronage. The same as in every administration since Washington.

135

recusancy Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:23am

re: #123 sattv4u2

could be because he was POTUS for 8 years while Obama has been there less than 1!

I dunno, just maybe!

I'm talking about 1st year. But he spent 1/3 of his entire presidency on vacation.

136

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:33am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Shhh ,,, Bush was the 1st President to ever go on vacation (Clinton/Nantucket Island) and Obama is the 1st to ever golf (Eisenhower/ Often)

Nobody is saying other Presidents didn't take vacation. But Bush easily eclipsed the previous record for vacation days which was set by Reagan.

487 days spent at Camp David plus another 490 days spent at his Crawford "ranch."

365 x 8 = 2,920
487 + 490 = 977
977/2920 = 33.4%

One in every 3 days as President spent at either Camp David or Crawford? Pretty fucking solid.

137

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:47am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Shhh ,,, Bush was the 1st President to ever go on vacation (Clinton/Nantucket Island) and Obama is the 1st to ever golf (Eisenhower/ Often)

He wasn't the first, but he did set a record for the most days officially on vacation. I don't think it's a big deal from a procedural point of view (he is at work all the time regardless of where he is) but the argument that he was on vacation the same as every other president is not at all accurate. As stated above, it's about perception...

138

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:57am

I think liberal wackos are about to burst at the seams trying to hold it all in for a year.

139

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:01:35am

"Left Becomes Right Becomes Left"

Whether the water is salt or fresh, shit floats.
(Alleged to be an old Russian proverb)

140

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:01:36am

re: #105 DaddyG

In fairness Clinton didn't have a Katrina to deal with and the local government in Florida and Mississippi were more competent in coordinating with the Feds. I'm not claiming there weren't FEMA issues with Katrina but I don't believe for a minute that Bush is the evil incompetent President who let blacks drown on purpose or though neglect.

My original point was that sooner or later as the Federal Executive is looked to as the savior of all our problems then the Federal Executive is going to get slammed when he can't prevent the unpreventable. Obama will face his own Katrina's and God help us all if we wait for someone in Washington to bail us out from every man made or natural disaster.

"...a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." -Gerald R Ford

Clinton had Andrew. If I recall, he actually redid FEMA and put in a man with more emergency management experience because of it. If I further recall, that man was replaced by Brownie.

We probably will never agree, but if a natural disaster hits you, God forbid, like it hit N.O., I think you'd be singing a different tune.

141

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:03am

re: #134 DaddyG

Political patronage. The same as in every administration since Washington.

well I thought the question was Nepolitano's competence

142

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:29am

re: #124 Cineaste

Bush was hardly the first or only President to hate Washington DC and being cooped up in the WH. It's a fishbowl, and many presidents opt to work elsewhere.

And to castigate Camp David does a tremendous disservice to the location, which was where several presidents achieved tremendous foreign policy goals, including Carter during the Camp David Accords. In fact, Carter spent quite a bit of time at Camp David, but you wouldn't call it vacation? I don't.

Vacations for Presidents just aren't like vacations that the rest of us take. They can't be.

143

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:34am

I don't consider Camp David "vacation".

But that's cool.

I'm sure you guys don't considers "dinners out" "dinners out."

144

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:47am

If anyone thinks the President isn't working on "vacations" or isn't connected to the grid 24x7 during their administration they are nuts.

Carping about the President's work schedule is a reflection of BDS or ODS. Pick your flavor.

145

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:48am

re: #128 marjoriemoon

We have a lot of flooding and low lying areas. The further south you go, the flooding gets worse.

The water maybe raises up to the handle of a car door, not up to a house roof.

I live in probably the only area of Miami-Dade county that is not a flood area.

It floods, but then it recedes. In New Orleans it floods and has to be pumped out. There are very few areas around Miami-Dade that are actually below sea-level.

146

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:03:13am

re: #133 reine.de.tout

There is also some evidence that the area where the breach occurred was leaking before the storm hit. People near the area had been complaining of leakage way before Katrina even formed. That situation was a disaster waiting to happen.

And . . . nobody gives a shit that this levee was leaking a FULL YEAR before Katrina because it's so much easier to blame Bush.

147

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:03:28am

re: #126 lawhawk

DHS manages our terrorist watch list? Or does that automagically appear out of the ether?

The DHS is responsible for putting together the watch lists, from the generic list to the one that requires secondary screening and the no-fly list.

So, if the DHS failed to put him on the secondary screening list, that's not the fault of the airport security guard in Amsterdam, but the bureaucrats in DHS who didn't do their damned job.

re: #115 marjoriemoon
Agreed.

He underwent secondary screening before boarding his KLM flight, and the bomb was not detected.

[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

148

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:04:03am

re: #129 albusteve

what makes her qualified for her position?...imo she's a lacky

Well she was Governor of the State of Arizona (John McCain's home state). Brownie was, as I recall, president of the Arabian Horse Association.

149

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:04:15am

First year of an administration is kinda like the first year of parenting. Although I know that is a simple analogy. No one is properly qualified to be a parent, you just hope they couple is mature enough to handle the challenge.

The Bush Administration got hit with a lot is first year, as with Obama, only history will show how well they performed.

150

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:04:38am

re: #136 drcordell

Nobody is saying other Presidents didn't take vacation. But Bush easily eclipsed the previous record for vacation days which was set by Reagan.

487 days spent at Camp David plus another 490 days spent at his Crawford "ranch."

365 x 8 = 2,920
487 + 490 = 977
977/2920 = 33.4%

One in every 3 days as President spent at either Camp David or Crawford? Pretty fucking solid.

I see. So if Obama eclipses that, does that mean he "worked less" than Bush or any other President that took "vacations" Do you think when a senator or someone on the Presidents staff e-mails the Pres while on "vacation" they get an OUT OF OFFICE FOR TWO WEEKS reply, or when they call they get a message saying 'The President is currently on vacation. Please leave a message and he will get back to you in two weeks, or if this is an emergency please dial 911"?

151

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:04:52am

Sigh, as if a POTUS could actually, truly go on 'vacation'...

152

avanti Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:14am

re: #135 recusancy

I'm talking about 1st year. But he spent 1/3 of his entire presidency on vacation.

In defense of all POTUS's, they are never on "vacation" They may be away from the WH, but never more than seconds out of contact when needed. They may not be planning new legislation, or doing meet and greets, but they are on call 24/7.
I think Obama instantly making a big deal about the attempted attack while on vacation would have been a mistake. Bush correctly waited before mentioning the shoe bomber too.

153

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:38am

re: #137 Cineaste

see #150

154

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:43am

re: #130 Ben Hur

Just like a beach Hawaii!!

I think the president is in touch and in command wherever he is. We spend a lot of money to make it that way. I'm just saying that calling one president out over another for being "away" is silly, but if you're going to do it, Bush set the record for most days officially "on vacation". He spent over a year at Crawford. I don't particularly care where he is, but don't try to argue that somehow Obama is more out of touch or that Bush was less on vacation than other presidents.

155

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:06:30am

re: #147 drcordell

The article calls it "secondary screening" and which the airline will try to CYA as well as airport security. We don't know from that report whether it was just to confirm his identity or a more thorough search of his belongings.

We do know DHS failed to put him on a list that would have mandated more thorough screening at a minimum or not allowed him to fly at all.

156

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #140 marjoriemoon

Clinton had Andrew. If I recall, he actually redid FEMA and put in a man with more emergency management experience because of it. If I further recall, that man was replaced by Brownie.

We probably will never agree, but if a natural disaster hits you, God forbid, like it hit N.O., I think you'd be singing a different tune.

I didn't blame Clinton for the aftermath of Andrew and I didn't blame Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. In both cases the local and state governments were responsible for first response and the Feds could only come in when invited by the Governor.

I've experienced natural disasters and have been on clean up details for several local and regional efforts. At no time when I was using a chainsaw to clear roads or physically lifing up walls to find a families belonging underneath was I carping that the Federal government or the president wasn't doing enough because we were a certain color or lived in a certiain state. That is what I have an issue with and I would still have that issue were it Obama being carped about.

157

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:07:35am

re: #145 Cineaste

It floods, but then it recedes. In New Orleans it floods and has to be pumped out. There are very few areas around Miami-Dade that are actually below sea-level.

Just wait until the CO2 level rises a bit more. /

158

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:07:53am

re: #117 lawhawk

90,000 square miles of devastated terrain, a major city taking it on the chin because of the failure of levees operated by state and local authorities and the ACoE?

FEMA failed the people of the Gulf Coast during Katrina, but so did everyone else, including many of those in positions of power in Louisiana who saw fit to ignore key infrastructure that might have prevented the damage in the first place.

No other storm imposed such widespread damage as Katrina.

And even with all the damage, NOLA still got lucky because it was hit with a glancing blow and not a direct hit.

It's always the aftermath you have to be concerned with. Prior to the hurricane, the duty of local/state government is to have proper evacuation procedures which NOLA did not have. They evacuated them INTO a flood zone. How crazy was that.

It's the job of citizens to prepare properly, but mind you this is a very expensive venture. We spend 100s each summer to prepare. Not possible for the level of poverty many of those people lived in.

You can't convince me otherwise. The aftermath is the responsibility of state AND federal governments. Mostly, like I say, with such widespread devastation, there is nothing available locally.

159

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:18am

re: #150 sattv4u2

I see. So if Obama eclipses that, does that mean he "worked less" than Bush or any other President that took "vacations" Do you think when a senator or someone on the Presidents staff e-mails the Pres while on "vacation" they get an OUT OF OFFICE FOR TWO WEEKS reply, or when they call they get a message saying 'The President is currently on vacation. Please leave a message and he will get back to you in two weeks, or if this is an emergency please dial 911"?

That depends if he remembers this conversation.

160

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:58am

re: #159 Ben Hur

That depends if he remembers this conversation.

I already want to forget it

161

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #142 lawhawk

I was very clearly not "castigating" Camp David. I don't care if the president is in the white house most of the time or not. I just don't buy the BS of people on the right trying to hammer Obama as being on vacation in Hawaii while Bush planned Iraq in Crawford.

162

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #148 Cineaste

Well she was Governor of the State of Arizona (John McCain's home state). Brownie was, as I recall, president of the Arabian Horse Association.

Brown has nothing to do with the DHS...what's a governorship have to do with security or criminalism, or law or international law?

163

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #156 DaddyG

I didn't blame Clinton for the aftermath of Andrew and I didn't blame Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. In both cases the local and state governments were responsible for first response and the Feds could only come in when invited by the Governor.

I've experienced natural disasters and have been on clean up details for several local and regional efforts. At no time when I was using a chainsaw to clear roads or physically lifing up walls to find a families belonging underneath was I carping that the Federal government or the president wasn't doing enough because we were a certain color or lived in a certiain state. That is what I have an issue with and I would still have that issue were it Obama being carped about.

Chez Reine before, immediately after and 4 days after Gustave.
Accomplished with no FEMA help whatsoever.

164

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:28am

re: #150 sattv4u2

I see. So if Obama eclipses that, does that mean he "worked less" than Bush or any other President that took "vacations" Do you think when a senator or someone on the Presidents staff e-mails the Pres while on "vacation" they get an OUT OF OFFICE FOR TWO WEEKS reply, or when they call they get a message saying 'The President is currently on vacation. Please leave a message and he will get back to you in two weeks, or if this is an emergency please dial 911"?

You are the one who keeps making suggestions that the President being away from the White House means he is unreachable. Nobody else has raised that point besides yourself.

All I am saying is, it is pretty remarkable that Bush managed to spend one THIRD of his entire Presidency at either Camp David or Crawford. Clearly the man is completely reachable no matter where he is. Obviously the President deserves to be able to get away from the White House every now and again.

But one THIRD of his Presidency spent there? You can't see that some might find that a bit ridiculous? The man's office is the White House. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the President to be at his office for more than two-thirds of his job span.

165

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #163 reine.de.tout

Oops - here's th elink

Chez Reine before, immediately after and 4 days after Gustave.
Accomplished with no FEMA help whatsoever.

166

lawhawk Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:51am

re: #133 reine.de.tout

The ACoE actually is being sued for its operation of the MRGO channel causing flooding, so the government is on the hook for actions and decisions made long before Bush took office. Katrina's effects in NOLA were exacerbated by decisions by governments before, during and after Katrina's landfall. Not everything falls on Bush for the mess of the situation, but he will be the brunt of the blame for the response that wasn't sufficient in NOLA, even though airlift and SAR capabilities across such a huge area were beyond anything ever before done in the US in such a short time; it's just that we expected it to be even faster than that.

And FEMA trailers are the epitome of a mess.

167

Ben Hur Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:10:19am

re: #154 Cineaste

I think the president is in touch and in command wherever he is. We spend a lot of money to make it that way. I'm just saying that calling one president out over another for being "away" is silly, but if you're going to do it, Bush set the record for most days officially "on vacation". He spent over a year at Crawford. I don't particularly care where he is, but don't try to argue that somehow Obama is more out of touch or that Bush was less on vacation than other presidents.

Out of touch, yes, but for other reasons.

But I posted a couple of times upthread, that they're never out of the loop,

168

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:10:36am

re: #164 drcordell

You are the one who keeps making suggestions that the President being away from the White House means he is unreachable.

BBZZZZZ ,,, wrong
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

169

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:10:44am

re: #166 lawhawk

The ACoE actually is being sued for its operation of the MRGO channel causing flooding, so the government is on the hook for actions and decisions made long before Bush took office. Katrina's effects in NOLA were exacerbated by decisions by governments before, during and after Katrina's landfall. Not everything falls on Bush for the mess of the situation, but he will be the brunt of the blame for the response that wasn't sufficient in NOLA, even though airlift and SAR capabilities across such a huge area were beyond anything ever before done in the US in such a short time; it's just that we expected it to be even faster than that.

And FEMA trailers are the epitome of a mess.

I believe Mr.Go is closed now.

170

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:10:54am

re: #146 reine.de.tout

And . . . nobody gives a shit that this levee was leaking a FULL YEAR before Katrina because it's so much easier to blame Bush.

To be precise, I don't think people blamed Bush for the levee breaking. It was the humanitarian disaster that ensued that was the problem. The Federal Government showed up late and FEMA was clearly unprepared. Nagin was a f-ing idiot and incompetent but that doesn't absolve FEMA of screwing up the recovery.

171

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:11:30am

re: #99 Cineaste

Florida is above sea-level so after every major hurricane the water goes away?

Oh and just FYI, we have a lot of drainage issues. It only takes a big rainstorm to create flooding. We are, after all, only a few meters above sea level. But yea, nothing like N.O.

172

Girth Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:12:06am

Yeah, well, even though Emmitt Smith holds the all-time rushing yards record, Barry Sanders is still my guy.

Just saying.

173

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #164 drcordell

The man's office is the White House

BBBZZZ ,, wrong AGAIN

The "mans office" is wherever the man happens to be at the time

It's the same reason it's NOT Air Force One until "the man" is onboard

174

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:12:32am

re: #164 drcordell
Bush spent 2/3rds of his presidency in close proximity to Washington lobbyists! /

This vacation thing is a nontroversy if I've ever heard one. In fact it would be nice if our legislature would go back to being part time politicians and full time something else's.

175

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #133 reine.de.tout

There is also some evidence that the area where the breach occurred was leaking before the storm hit. People near the area had been complaining of leakage way before Katrina even formed. That situation was a disaster waiting to happen.

Incidentally, a billion dollar project put in place to rebuild the leeves at the end of the Clinton admin was scrapped by Bush.

176

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:13:15am

re: #170 Cineaste

To be precise, I don't think people blamed Bush for the levee breaking. It was the humanitarian disaster that ensued that was the problem. The Federal Government showed up late and FEMA was clearly unprepared. Nagin was a f-ing idiot and incompetent but that doesn't absolve FEMA of screwing up the recovery.

I lost any sympathy for NOLA when they re-elected Nagin.

177

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:13:49am

re: #170 Cineaste

To be precise, I don't think people blamed Bush for the levee breaking. It was the humanitarian disaster that ensued that was the problem. The Federal Government showed up late and FEMA was clearly unprepared. Nagin was a f-ing idiot and incompetent but that doesn't absolve FEMA of screwing up the recovery.

if it weren't for Nagin there would not have been the epic humanitarian disaster...he should be thrown in chains for what he did...it was criminal

178

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:13:58am

re: #155 lawhawk

The article calls it "secondary screening" and which the airline will try to CYA as well as airport security. We don't know from that report whether it was just to confirm his identity or a more thorough search of his belongings.

We do know DHS failed to put him on a list that would have mandated more thorough screening at a minimum or not allowed him to fly at all.

This is true. But it's also true that previously DHS had come under fire for having too many people on their most stringent terror watch lists. And it's also true that simply having a person report that they believe their son may be involved with terror groups is just one piece of evidence.

I hope that DHS does re-examine their procedures in the wake of this incident. And it dismays me that the guy bought a one-way ticket, paid cash, and was sitting in the most vulnerable seat in the plane without having a more stringent examination placed upon him.

But it is also true that realistically, normal airport security is nothing but an elaborate charade meant to calm the public at large. Unless you are going to use millimeter-wave body scans on every passenger, or pass every person through a bomb-detecting air-puffer machine, the BallBomber's weapon is basically undetectable.

179

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #170 Cineaste

To be precise, I don't think people blamed Bush for the levee breaking. It was the humanitarian disaster that ensued that was the problem. The Federal Government showed up late and FEMA was clearly unprepared. Nagin was a f-ing idiot and incompetent but that doesn't absolve FEMA of screwing up the recovery.

The fed gov't showed up as soon as they could get into the area. I don't think people realize how difficult it was to get into that area, and to communicate effectively, or for how long this went on. There was NO communication equipment that made it thru the storm -

It is impossible to describe the effects STATEWIDE that the Katrina/Rita punch had. It really is. The feds could have done a better job - of course. But to say it's ALL BUSH'S FAULT - is just wrong. Those people were in New Orleans when the flooding occurred because Blanco and Nagin were dawdling around and playing politics. Those people should have been evacuated, OR provided a reasonable shelter, NOT the Dome with no food,water or other necessities.

180

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:15:06am

re: #176 ggt

I lost any sympathy for NOLA when they re-elected Nagin.

he's their Gift Horse

181

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #179 reine.de.tout

The fed gov't showed up as soon as they could get into the area. I don't think people realize how difficult it was to get into that area, and to communicate effectively, or for how long this went on. There was NO communication equipment that made it thru the storm -

It is impossible to describe the effects STATEWIDE that the Katrina/Rita punch had. It really is. The feds could have done a better job - of course. But to say it's ALL BUSH'S FAULT - is just wrong. Those people were in New Orleans when the flooding occurred because Blanco and Nagin were dawdling around and playing politics. Those people should have been evacuated, OR provided a reasonable shelter, NOT the Dome with no food,water or other necessities.

And the evacuation and sheltering responsibilities were Blanco's and Nagin's. They failed.

182

drcordell Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:15:36am

re: #173 sattv4u2

The man's office is the White House

BBBZZZ ,, wrong AGAIN

The "mans office" is wherever the man happens to be at the time

It's the same reason it's NOT Air Force One until "the man" is onboard

You really have a knack for completely ignoring the substance of a post and singling in on the meaningless minutia.

183

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #162 albusteve

Brown has nothing to do with the DHS...what's a governorship have to do with security or criminalism, or law or international law?

Good point. Someone tell that to Palin please...

Oh yeah, and Bush (W) and Clinton and Reagan and Carter and...

184

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:16:51am

re: #156 DaddyG

I didn't blame Clinton for the aftermath of Andrew and I didn't blame Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. In both cases the local and state governments were responsible for first response and the Feds could only come in when invited by the Governor.

I've experienced natural disasters and have been on clean up details for several local and regional efforts. At no time when I was using a chainsaw to clear roads or physically lifing up walls to find a families belonging underneath was I carping that the Federal government or the president wasn't doing enough because we were a certain color or lived in a certiain state. That is what I have an issue with and I would still have that issue were it Obama being carped about.

What about the truckload of supplies, and the ships docked in the gulf that were delayed for weeks by Homeland Security, a federal agency?

185

albusteve Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:17:26am

re: #183 Cineaste

Good point. Someone tell that to Palin please...

Oh yeah, and Bush (W) and Clinton and Reagan and Carter and...

yeah, other people do it, so she's off the hook...got it

186

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #182 drcordell

You really have a knack for completely ignoring the substance of a post and singling in on the meaningless minutia.

And you have a knack of attributing somethin g to me I didn't utter!

YOU stated "You are the one who keeps making suggestions that the President being away from the White House means he is unreachable."

Show me where I "suggested" that

187

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:18:37am

re: #174 DaddyG

In fact it would be nice if our legislature would go back to being part time politicians and full time something else's.

The constitution declares that IF congress hasn't met yet in a year they have to meet for the last two weeks of the year. Clearly they did not predict full time legislators!

188

Gus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:18:47am

re: #126 lawhawk

DHS manages our terrorist watch list? Or does that automagically appear out of the ether?

The DHS is responsible for putting together the watch lists, from the generic list to the one that requires secondary screening and the no-fly list.

So, if the DHS failed to put him on the secondary screening list, that's not the fault of the airport security guard in Amsterdam, but the bureaucrats in DHS who didn't do their damned job.

re: #115 marjoriemoon
Agreed.

The TSA maintain the list. Of course the TSA is under Homeland Security however that list is compiled using their "Federal partners, including the intelligence and law enforcement communities." Abdulmutallab was on the TIDES list already but that list contain 500,000 individuals which is compiled by from CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA information.

TIDES is maintained by the National Counterterrorism Center which is a part of Office of the Director of National Intelligence. There are far too many agencies involved to pinpoint all the blame on Homeland Security let alone Janet Napolitano. Initial reports indicate that the father warned Nigerian "security forces" and "some foreign security agencies." That was only 90 days ago.

189

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:19:05am

re: #181 reine.de.tout

And the evacuation and sheltering responsibilities were Blanco's and Nagin's. They failed.

Yet that just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Bush hates blacks."

This whole debate started when I pointed out that Obama is probably going to face his own Katrina moment and that we shoudln't put unreaslistic expectations on what the President can and cannot do.

Presidents are not saviors or satan.

190

webevintage Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:21:37am

re: #178 drcordell

I hope that DHS does re-examine their procedures in the wake of this incident. And it dismays me that the guy bought a one-way ticket, paid cash, and was sitting in the most vulnerable seat in the plane without having a more stringent examination placed upon him.

I hope they do too.
BUT is there anything DHS could have done about this since he got on planes in Nigeria and Amsterdam and the folks there are the ones who did not raise any alarm at a one way ticket holder who paid in cash and had no luggage?

His family has released a statement:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
"Prior to this incident, his father, having become concerned about his disappearance and stoppage of communication while schooling abroad, reported the matter to the Nigerian security agencies about two months ago, and to some foreign security agencies about a month and a half ago, then sought their assistance to find and return him home."

191

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:21:54am

re: #179 reine.de.tout

I don't think it was all anyone's fault. I just was seriously dissappointed that we didn't see fleets of transport helicopters getting people from the dome out to safer areas. Just a few weeks earlier I watched as Israel evacuated Gaza by filling shipping containers with troops and putting them on rooftops and I haven't a clue why we didn't do the same thing in reverse to get dying people OUT. Once Honore got there it got much, much better but man it took a long time for someone to realize we needed a real leader in charge.

192

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:23:20am

re: #185 albusteve

yeah, other people do it, so she's off the hook...got it

well I'm guessing you probably voted for two of those four as leaders of the free world, but you felt they couldn't have run DHS?

193

DaddyG Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:25:36am

re: #184 marjoriemoon

Sigh. I have not once said the Feds were well organized. I just don't see it as a partisan issue or even worse intentional neglect because the victims were the wrong political orientation or race. That kind of nonsense flies in the face of a very difficult situation and failures on the part of local, state and federal officials to coordinate.

There is a reason there are tons of studies out there on the response to Katrina and how the government can address them in the future.

194

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:25:39am

PS: I was referencing your #162 albusteve

Brown has nothing to do with the DHS...what's a governorship have to do with security or criminalism, or law or international law?

195

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:28:37am

re: #191 Cineaste

I don't think it was all anyone's fault. I just was seriously dissappointed that we didn't see fleets of transport helicopters getting people from the dome out to safer areas. Just a few weeks earlier I watched as Israel evacuated Gaza by filling shipping containers with troops and putting them on rooftops and I haven't a clue why we didn't do the same thing in reverse to get dying people OUT. Once Honore got there it got much, much better but man it took a long time for someone to realize we needed a real leader in charge.

Here's what happened, and it was NOT COVERED by the news media, who were enamored of the "they're eating each other" rumors.

There was a 24/7 operation by boat and helicopter to get people out of their flooded homes The first evacuated were those needing medical attention. Boats/helicopters would drop food and supplies and pick up those needing medical attention. Once those were picked up, they began getting others off their rooftops. There were families who were stranded on their rooftops for days - they had supplies dropped to them and got evacuated as soon as they could be. There is only X amount of airspace, and only so many helicopters could fly in it There was also a problem of fuel shortage, as it was virtually impossible to get supplies in. Once the rooftop folks were rescued, it was time to start with the folks who were in (or had been in) the dome, which was at least shelter better than a rooftop. In other words, they prioritized the rescue effort. And it went on 24/7, started by La. Wildlife & Fisheries shortly after the storm passed. AND this was not sexy enough for any of the news media to cover.

196

rwmofo Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #164 drcordell

You are the one who keeps making suggestions that the President being away from the White House means he is unreachable. Nobody else has raised that point besides yourself.

All I am saying is, it is pretty remarkable that Bush managed to spend one THIRD of his entire Presidency at either Camp David or Crawford. Clearly the man is completely reachable no matter where he is. Obviously the President deserves to be able to get away from the White House every now and again.

But one THIRD of his Presidency spent there? You can't see that some might find that a bit ridiculous? The man's office is the White House. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the President to be at his office for more than two-thirds of his job span.

So I assume that you're celebrating rather than complaining, because when Bush was "on vacation" at least he wasn't lowering taxes or giving us a choice for our Social Security savings or giving us school choice or mandating any other crazy "right-wing" ideas.

197

sattv4u2 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:32:20am

re: #196 rwmofo

ouch!

198

cliffster Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:32:48am

re: #196 rwmofo

Yeah, that corporate lackey, trying to give people an option to save their SS retirement instead of having 100% of it spent on entitlements.

199

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:38:37am

re: #193 DaddyG

Sigh. I have not once said the Feds were well organized. I just don't see it as a partisan issue or even worse intentional neglect because the victims were the wrong political orientation or race. That kind of nonsense flies in the face of a very difficult situation and failures on the part of local, state and federal officials to coordinate.

There is a reason there are tons of studies out there on the response to Katrina and how the government can address them in the future.

I know you've said it and I wasn't responding. The blame put on Bush, because they were Black and Democrats, is ridiculous. I do agree.

That's not my beef at all. Since Andrew, federal response should have gotten better, not worse. State response AND preparation for Louisiana (worse marks for preparation in my book) was beyond dismal.

We have mandatory evacuation for our coast. That means if a cop finds you in a MANDATORY evacuation area, he's going to make you leave, by gunpoint if that what it takes. Call it a police state if you will. If you don't like it, don't buy beach property.

If you're sick or elderly or just anyone who doesn't want to be in their home, you have the option of being bused to a shelter. You sign up for these shelters and they come pick you up before the storm. Easy peasy.

200

jaunte Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:39:12am

Remember how the left would hyperventilate and complain about President Bush playing golf instead of [fill in the blank]? And remember how the right would rush to Bush’s defense, pointing out that a President is never actually out of touch “on vacation,” but is constantly kept informed about breaking developments?

Never ending fun!

201

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:17am

re: #199 marjoriemoon

I know you've said it and I wasn't responding. The blame put on Bush, because they were Black and Democrats, is ridiculous. I do agree.

That's not my beef at all. Since Andrew, federal response should have gotten better, not worse. State response AND preparation for Louisiana (worse marks for preparation in my book) was beyond dismal.

We have mandatory evacuation for our coast. That means if a cop finds you in a MANDATORY evacuation area, he's going to make you leave, by gunpoint if that what it takes. Call it a police state if you will. If you don't like it, don't buy beach property.

If you're sick or elderly or just anyone who doesn't want to be in their home, you have the option of being bused to a shelter. You sign up for these shelters and they come pick you up before the storm. Easy peasy.

THat whole mandatory evacuation thing bothered me. I'm not sure it's legal. If a person want's to stay in their home it's their right -- regardless. Unless you can prove they are mentally unable to make that determination.

The gun confiscation was wrong too.

202

Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #201 ggt

Isn't part of the mandatory evacuation thing a way to get the innocents clear so that the patrolling law enforcement can assume that anyone they see slinking around is a looter?

203

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:49:08am

re: #202 oaktree

Isn't part of the mandatory evacuation thing a way to get the innocents clear so that the patrolling law enforcement can assume that anyone they see slinking around is a looter?

Staying put in your own home is different from "slinking" around.

204

Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:52:30am

re: #203 ggt

Until the house floods and you and your load of possessions are in a boat and it's dark outside.

I understand your point. But there's also some valid reasoning behind the idea for mandatory evac being done in order to simplify things for the police, rescue, and other personnel who are in the area trying to minimize the damage and keep things intact as much as nature will allow.

205

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:53:43am

re: #204 oaktree

Until the house floods and you and your load of possessions are in a boat and it's dark outside.

I understand your point. But there's also some valid reasoning behind the idea for mandatory evac being done in order to simplify things for the police, rescue, and other personnel who are in the area trying to minimize the damage and keep things intact as much as nature will allow.

It's a gray area.

206

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:55:17am

re: #201 ggt

THat whole mandatory evacuation thing bothered me. I'm not sure it's legal. If a person want's to stay in their home it's their right -- regardless. Unless you can prove they are mentally unable to make that determination.

The gun confiscation was wrong too.

I'm not sure I totally agree. There are times when the best policy is that everyone leaves. Having some people stay means that we have to spend enormous resources and risk lives later to go get them and/or have more law enforcement on the ground to ensure those areas are not being looted by people who have stayed behind. There are some, extremely limited, circumstances, where the government can say everyone needs to get out of the way.

207

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:59:11am

re: #206 Cineaste

I'm not sure I totally agree. There are times when the best policy is that everyone leaves. Having some people stay means that we have to spend enormous resources and risk lives later to go get them and/or have more law enforcement on the ground to ensure those areas are not being looted by people who have stayed behind. There are some, extremely limited, circumstances, where the government can say everyone needs to get out of the way.

If a person wants to stay and defend their own property, I'm not sure, technically, they can be made to leave.

It's a conflict of rights, I suppose. Can you make a person take entitlements? Can't a person deny those rescue services?

If I want to stay in my own home and risk death, isn't it my right?

I have a feeling legal scholars have been hashing out this one for a long time.

208

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #207 ggt

If a person wants to stay and defend their own property, I'm not sure, technically, they can be made to leave.

It's a conflict of rights, I suppose. Can you make a person take entitlements? Can't a person deny those rescue services?

If I want to stay in my own home and risk death, isn't it my right?

I have a feeling legal scholars have been hashing out this one for a long time.

It's definitely a gray area but there are any number of times when the government can make you leave your property. The much disputed Kelo decision had the SCOTUS say it was ok for the government to seize your property, ergo they could make you leave it. Admittedly the circumstances are different but the argument that the government can never make you leave your house isn't a blanket truth.

209

Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #207 ggt

Like you said earlier, it's a gray area.

210

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:04:08pm

re: #207 ggt

If a person wants to stay and defend their own property, I'm not sure, technically, they can be made to leave.

It's a conflict of rights, I suppose. Can you make a person take entitlements? Can't a person deny those rescue services?

If I want to stay in my own home and risk death, isn't it my right?

I have a feeling legal scholars have been hashing out this one for a long time.

Let's take a hyperbolic example:

The police are sworn to protect and defend you. A volcano is errupting and lava is flowing towards your house. If you stay and later ask to be rescued, the police could be obligated to try and help, thus endangering their own lives in an unreasonable and avoidable circumstance. Ergo, they make you leave before hand.

I know this is not a real situation but one could make an argument following these lines.

211

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #210 Cineaste

Let's take a hyperbolic example:

The police are sworn to protect and defend you. A volcano is errupting and lava is flowing towards your house. If you stay and later ask to be rescued, the police could be obligated to try and help, thus endangering their own lives in an unreasonable and avoidable circumstance. Ergo, they make you leave before hand.

I know this is not a real situation but one could make an argument following these lines.

Law Enforcement is sworn to protect and defend communities NOT individuals. They are not required to respond to individual pleas for help. There was a Supreme Court case regarding this.

No one is responsible for the protection of your property but YOU.

I don't think Kelo applies, because technically the property is no longer yours.

212

huggy77 Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:07:39pm

re: #7 Ben Hur

He does work less and golf more than Bush, though.

I find your lack of faith disturbing, You don't know the power of the Bama....

213

Holidays are Family Fun Time Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:08:13pm

Gotta go, have a great day all!

214

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:17:23pm

re: #201 ggt

THat whole mandatory evacuation thing bothered me. I'm not sure it's legal. If a person want's to stay in their home it's their right -- regardless. Unless you can prove they are mentally unable to make that determination.

The gun confiscation was wrong too.

No, not gun confiscation. If you give a policeman a hard time when told to evacuate, he will lead you out by gunpoint. Yikes, sorry you confused that.

Not all areas are mandatory. The majority are suggested. I think it's about 1/2 mile off the coast which is mandatory.

The reason is if you end up bleeding to death or terribly injured, they can't come get you. They do it to save your life or your agony, and that of emergency responders.

215

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:20:06pm

re: #202 oaktree

Isn't part of the mandatory evacuation thing a way to get the innocents clear so that the patrolling law enforcement can assume that anyone they see slinking around is a looter?

This was probably the biggest gripe in Andrew about the federal gov. It took a little over 2 weeks (IIR) for the National Guard to get here. Ironically, it was not the coast that was hit with Andrew. It was inland in Miami's suburbia. These people didn't want to leave their homes (who could blame them) yet their homes were death traps.

216

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:22:22pm

re: #206 Cineaste

I'm not sure I totally agree. There are times when the best policy is that everyone leaves. Having some people stay means that we have to spend enormous resources and risk lives later to go get them and/or have more law enforcement on the ground to ensure those areas are not being looted by people who have stayed behind. There are some, extremely limited, circumstances, where the government can say everyone needs to get out of the way.

It's also a safety issue for law enforcement. They have to go into an area with downed power lines and water (usually the biggest killer after a storm) and homes that are falling down. They want you out of the areas that they feel will be the worst hit.

217

What, me worry? Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:30:21pm

re: #211 ggt

Your stuff is just your stuff. Any fool who chooses to stay in a mandatory evac, esp with what we know today, deserves everything that happens to them.

This isn't a giant government conspiracy to get you out of your home. It's for your safety and others. In fact, I moved off the beach for this very reason. I have pets, a husband and I like my stuff.

218

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:40:53pm

Well, according to Michelle Malkin...this Obama bastard is a disgrace for not wearing a tie at his press conference and he did not call for revenge on all brown people.

Update 3pm Eastern. Obama doesn’t bother to wear a tie. He hastily reads a belated statement describing the incident like a small-town sheriff’s deputy rather than the leader of the free world. He ticks off investigative steps in a perfunctory, plodding, bloodless manner. “We will continue to every element of our national power to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat the violent extremists…anywhere where they are plotting attacks against Americans.”

Eyes down on his paper the whole time — not looking at the camera and directing his statements at our enemies.

He talks about “resilience” as a foreign concept, not something he believes in in his heart.

Rushes through the end of his statement with a postscript about the violence in Iran.

Couldn’t get off the podium fast enough.

Inspiring.

219

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:41:05pm

re: #217 marjoriemoon

Your stuff is just your stuff. Any fool who chooses to stay in a mandatory evac, esp with what we know today, deserves everything that happens to them.

This isn't a giant government conspiracy to get you out of your home. It's for your safety and others. In fact, I moved off the beach for this very reason. I have pets, a husband and I like my stuff.

I'm sure that if and/or when a mandatory evac order is issued while Obama is in the White House there will be innumerable morons coming out to claim it is so he can sekritly send our kidz to reducashun camps!

//only partially...

220

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:43:48pm

re: #218 beekiller

He talks about “resilience” as a foreign concept, not something he believes in in his heart.

Yeah, cause this is a guy that knows nothing about resilience. I mean he just waltzed through a two year campaign against total lightweights like the Clintons and then bested the oh-so-resilient Sarah "I quit because I'm not a quitter" Palin...

I'm not saying he's resisted Jack Bauer interrogation, but come on, Michelle is deranged.

221

Cineaste Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:46:01pm

re: #220 Cineaste

and ps:

Youtube Video

Not even wearing a coat! [run around screaming]

222

webevintage Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:58:57pm

re: #218 beekiller

Well, according to Michelle Malkin...this Obama bastard is a disgrace for not wearing a tie at his press conference and he did not call for revenge on all brown people.

I've pretty much decided that if you are pissing off malkin and her kind then you must be doing something right.

223

Cygnus Mon, Dec 28, 2009 1:03:59pm

re: #127 avanti

As opposed the the similarly staffed, but yet not named Pacific WH ?

They could put it near Mauna Loa and call it the Volcano House White House.

224

Jerusalemyte Mon, Dec 28, 2009 1:11:17pm

Hear! Hear!

225

reine.de.tout Mon, Dec 28, 2009 1:46:21pm

re: #195 reine.de.tout

Here's what happened, and it was NOT COVERED by the news media, who were enamored of the "they're eating each other" rumors.

There was a 24/7 operation by boat and helicopter to get people out of their flooded homes The first evacuated were those needing medical attention. Boats/helicopters would drop food and supplies and pick up those needing medical attention. Once those were picked up, they began getting others off their rooftops. There were families who were stranded on their rooftops for days - they had supplies dropped to them and got evacuated as soon as they could be. There is only X amount of airspace, and only so many helicopters could fly in it There was also a problem of fuel shortage, as it was virtually impossible to get supplies in. Once the rooftop folks were rescued, it was time to start with the folks who were in (or had been in) the dome, which was at least shelter better than a rooftop. In other words, they prioritized the rescue effort. And it went on 24/7, started by La. Wildlife & Fisheries shortly after the storm passed. AND this was not sexy enough for any of the news media to cover.

Interesting that drcordell downdinged this statement of events that occurred in a situation that I lived through and observed with my very own eyes, not to mention having several personal conversations with the very Wildlife & Fisheries guys who were in those boats in Louisiana.

Cordell - you have a problem with facts?

Spy Mode Auto

This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Left Becomes Right Becomes Left

► LGF Headlines

► Top 10 Comments

► Bottom Comments

► Recent Comments

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud