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1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:33:07am

How long will that last --with the internet, can a government actually block everything for long? I think there are some awfully smart Iranian teenagers who will get thru.

2 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:38:33am

re: #1 ggt

It's a totalitarian dictatorship for all intents and purposes; the government controls access points, so unless individuals can figure a way to evade those outlets, they will manage to control the message. It's what totalitarian dictatorships do. We might get information in drips and drabs.

The Iranian people deserve a government better than the one they have. They have a reason to be discontented with the thugocracy that Ahmadinejad and the ruling mullahs have imposed and the violence is sure to shock even those who didn't care for Mousavi and the protesters. Violent crackdowns like this during Ashura aren't going to make it easier for the regime (and shouldn't).

3 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:43:51am

re: #2 lawhawk

It's a totalitarian dictatorship for all intents and purposes; the government controls access points, so unless individuals can figure a way to evade those outlets, they will manage to control the message. It's what totalitarian dictatorships do. We might get information in drips and drabs.

The Iranian people deserve a government better than the one they have. They have a reason to be discontented with the thugocracy that Ahmadinejad and the ruling mullahs have imposed and the violence is sure to shock even those who didn't care for Mousavi and the protesters. Violent crackdowns like this during Ashura aren't going to make it easier for the regime (and shouldn't).

Didn't this happen during the last major uprising and eventually the students got links out?

4 Racer X  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:44:17am

This will only strengthen the Iranian people's resolve to remove these thugs from power. They have tasted freedom (through the web). The want more.

5 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:28am

Telephones, parcel smugglers, and what else can they use now?

6 AK-47%  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:45:31am

Right now, the best thing the West can do is to keep intervention/interference to a minimum and let this play out internally. Any outside intervention will just be an excuse to crack down even more brutally.

And those peoplpe will find a way out with their information even if they have to smuggle microchips across to Baluchstan by camel...

7 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:46:02am

Hope there's some pirate radio stations on air.

8 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:47:48am

re: #5 The Sanity Inspector

Telephones, parcel smugglers, and what else can they use now?

A snip from a website..

HOWEVER, there is another alternative - Iridium phones. IRidium is a GSM system and includes SMS capability. And you only need to be able to see the sky. Whats more, it covers Iran, and a bit difficult to jam. Obviously, voice is also possible with Iridium but the data capability may be more useful for moving information out of Iran (or into it).
9 recusancy  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:48:47am

You can setup proxies and help them

That worked this past summer. I don't know if it will still work.

10 HelloDare  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:49:49am
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
11 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:50:25am

re: #1 ggt

How long will that last --with the internet, can a government actually block everything for long? I think there are some awfully smart Iranian teenagers who will get thru.

I suppose they could turn off the external interfaces to all the core routers...
Internally they could leave open the internal interfaces for the Gov't intranet at private address.. probably 10.x.x.x addresses.

12 Bob Dillon  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:50:32am

re: #9 recusancy

You can setup proxies and help them

That worked this past summer. I don't know if it will still work.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

June 16, 2009 5:23 PM
The Internet Underground Captures The Turmoil In Tehran

13 AK-47%  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:51:41am

re: #10 HelloDare

Under "well regulated militia" I assume we mean a buncha good ol' boys in pickup trucks with gun racks?

///

14 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:53:38am

re: #13 ralphieboy

Under "well regulated militia" I assume we mean a buncha good ol' boys in pickup trucks with gun racks?

///

INDIANA!
/ you get extra points for empty bud cans in the bed of the truck

15 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #13 ralphieboy

Under "well regulated militia" I assume we mean a buncha good ol' boys in pickup trucks with gun racks?

///

They're just making their way the only way they know how.

16 HelloDare  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #13 ralphieboy

Under "well regulated militia" I assume we mean a buncha good ol' boys in pickup trucks with gun racks?

///

I mean if the Iranian citizenry were as well armed as we are, the regime would be toppled.

17 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:40am

Sponsoring terror and developing nuclear weapons is one thing.
But shutting down the internet, now that's just plain unacceptable.

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 10:59:56am

re: #16 HelloDare

I mean if the Iranian citizenry were as well armed as we are, the regime would be toppled.

They wouldn't have the power in the first place.

19 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:36am

It looks like they can get around blocked internet access.

There are a lot of ways to get out of internet censorship in Iran, some of them that the Persian site of Voice of America recommends are:

1. Weekly Proxies Proxies at VOAPNN
2. Freegate (or Parvaaz) Software Parvaaz at VOAPNN
3. Psiphon Psiphon at VOAPNN
4. Haystack Haystack at VOAPNN

But there are other ways to pass over the filtering in Iran, such as:

1. Freegate Freegate
2. Garden Networks GTunnel
3. FirePhoenix FirePhoenix
4. GPass GPass
5. Tor (anonymity network) Tor

Following the 2009 Iranian presidential election, the U.S. Senate ratified a plan to help curb "censorship in the Islamic Republic". The legislation dubbed the Victims of Iranian Censorship (VOICE) Act was allocated $20 million to fund measures "to counter Iranian government efforts to jam radio, satellite, and Internet-based transmissions."[8]

20 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:00:56am

re: #16 HelloDare

I mean if the Iranian citizenry were as well armed as we are, the regime would be toppled.

Call me a pessimist, but I seriously doubt that...

21 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:02:26am

re: #16 HelloDare

I mean if the Iranian citizenry were as well armed as we are, the regime would be toppled.

It'd probably turn into something more like Gaza. Why do you think the US is constantly confiscating weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan?

22 theliel  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:03:02am

Much sympathies for the Iranian people, they've got one hell of an uphill battle.

But they've done it before, and I imagine they'll get it done again.

23 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:04:19am

I have twitter up and running and have not seen any new news today. I guess this is why.

24 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:00am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I have twitter up and running and have not seen any new news today. I guess this is why.

They'll find a way to get the news out.

25 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:27am

Is it possible to give access from off-shore? Like from a military vessel.

Does that capability exist?

26 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:53am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I have twitter up and running and have not seen any new news today. I guess this is why.

I was noticing the same thing. not much new news coming through.

27 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:05:59am

From what I've seen the Cell phone networks are offline, and they've probably segmented their network and put blocks in that only allow Gov't IP's to receive and transmit. Getting around firewalls and pix type stuff is easy if they are aren't doing the "block everything but stuff to and from this list of IP's" thing. If that's the case the only way past is low tech dial up to external points, if that's being allowed, or getting onto neighboring countries GSM or CDMA nets near borders.

28 marsl  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:06:21am

The Iranian regime is going to do what the shah regime did: shoot the demonstrators. Then, what will happen is a game of patience between those who shoot and those who are shot at. Until one side just get tired and let the other win. That was what happened in 1979, when the army just stopped shooting and deserted to the other side.
Speaking of the devil, where is the Iranian army? With the government or with the opposition?

29 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:06:28am

re: #24 Baier

They'll find a way to get the news out.

Hope so.
Last time, a lot of twitter users changed their twitter location to Iran - tehran - in hopes of confusing the authorities. Not sure how well that worked.

30 cliffster  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:06:50am

re: #25 Ben Hur

Is it possible to give access from off-shore? Like from a military vessel.

Does that capability exist?

They need to get them some satellite internet

31 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:14am

re: #21 Baier

It'd probably turn into something more like Gaza. Why do you think the US is constantly confiscating weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan?

IIRC, every home is allowed one rifle for self-defence.

32 Ben Jhazi  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:17am

re: #30 cliffster

They need to get them some satellite internet

I think there were reports of them actually confiscating satellite dishes last time.

33 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:20am

I guess I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling that Iran will have gun stores sprouting up in Malls in the near future.
It seems everybody in the ME has 20 AK-47's in each closet and plenty of ammo...Not in Iran

34 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:08:43am

re: #25 Ben Hur

Is it possible to give access from off-shore? Like from a military vessel.

Does that capability exist?

Technically speaking, yes, it's plausible. They would have to get into Iran's territorial waters to be within decent transmission range of much of the country, though. The most likely methods of getting information out of the country all involve being able to connect to a non-Iranian network, e.g. being on a non-Iranian satellite connection.

35 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:31am

re: #27 Thanos

From what I've seen the Cell phone networks are offline, and they've probably segmented their network and put blocks in that only allow Gov't IP's to receive and transmit. Getting around firewalls and pix type stuff is easy if they are aren't doing the "block everything but stuff to and from this list of IP's" thing. If that's the case the only way past is low tech dial up to external points, if that's being allowed, or getting onto neighboring countries GSM or CDMA nets near borders.

They could also probably get in and out on the ham radio spectrum and their packet network if they have folks in that over there. Anyone know some HAM radio enthusiasts who could check that?

36 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:35am

re: #16 HelloDare

I mean if the Iranian citizenry were as well armed as we are, the regime would be toppled.

But at least Iranian proggs don't have to rush to their anxiety closets at the sight of armed citizens, like they do here.

37 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:09:48am

re: #30 cliffster

They need to get them some satellite internet

The US put $50 Million aside to help. I think aside from military intervention, free access to information is most powerful tool we can use.

38 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:11:15am

re: #35 Thanos

They could also probably get in and out on the ham radio spectrum and their packet network if they have folks in that over there. Anyone know some HAM radio enthusiasts who could check that?

Long-range radio transmissions would work, as well as any infrastructure "borrowed" from a neighboring country, e.g. connecting to a cell tower on the border. Anything that isn't "on the grid" is fair game, which is why satellite communications are the easiest and most accessible (and why the Iranians cracked down on that to begin with).

39 HelloDare  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:12:39am

re: #20 Varek Raith

Call me a pessimist, but I seriously doubt that...

The citizens are fighting without weapon now. Many more would fight if they had weapons.

The regular army is not confronting the people. It's the police and the Revolutionary Guard.

The regime is hated. How many in the regular army would fight the people?

40 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:13:38am

re: #34 thedopefishlives

Technically speaking, yes, it's plausible. They would have to get into Iran's territorial waters to be within decent transmission range of much of the country, though. The most likely methods of getting information out of the country all involve being able to connect to a non-Iranian network, e.g. being on a non-Iranian satellite connection.

Thanks.

I assume the US military is working on something similar. Or will be after the recent Iranian uprisings.

Though I figure they could be blocked like blocking a cell phone signal.

41 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:15:36am

re: #40 Ben Hur

Thanks.

I assume the US military is working on something similar. Or will be after the recent Iranian uprisings.

Though I figure they could be blocked like blocking a cell phone signal.

Blocking a cell phone signal is easy because those signals are relatively short-range and are routed through a network controlled by the government. Getting off the grid by running a long-wave radio transmission would work well enough, although it would be susceptible to radio jamming equipment. However, that could be construed as a hostile action, and I don't know if the Iranian regime would go to that extent. They are pretty desperate to contain the information; all the more reason why tech-heads like myself need to keep pushing for ways around the block.

42 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:16:10am

re: #38 thedopefishlives

Long-range radio transmissions would work, as well as any infrastructure "borrowed" from a neighboring country, e.g. connecting to a cell tower on the border. Anything that isn't "on the grid" is fair game, which is why satellite communications are the easiest and most accessible (and why the Iranians cracked down on that to begin with).

The problem with the alternatives is that they are relatively low tech and low bandwidth, so I wouldn't be expecting pictures or video, just text.

43 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:16:30am

One thing I've learned is that the "younger generation" is much smarter than I was. Their brains are not configured for the realities of life, yet. They see avenues for success in ways the older generation just can't.

Many are probably working feverishly to reconfigure their video games to link up with satellites or some such scenerio just for the sheer challenge of doing it.

Give them time.

44 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:16:54am

re: #39 HelloDare

The citizens are fighting without weapon now. Many more would fight if they had weapons.

The regular army is not confronting the people. It's the police and the Revolutionary Guard.

The regime is hated. How many in the regular army would fight the people?

Like I said, I'm a pessimist. I don't think the regime see these protesters as a threat to their existence. When they do, then the army will be used. Only time will tell if the army obeys the Mullahs.

45 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:17:00am

re: #39 HelloDare

The citizens are fighting without weapon now. Many more would fight if they had weapons.

The regular army is not confronting the people. It's the police and the Revolutionary Guard.

The regime is hated. How many in the regular army would fight the people?

Be careful with that.

We were told that the Iraqis also hated their regime.

But I've learned that it they really LOVED the Saddam regime during Bush's war on the Iraqi people......

46 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:17:16am

re: #42 Thanos

The problem with the alternatives is that they are relatively low tech and low bandwidth, so I wouldn't be expecting pictures or video, just text.

Indeed. Twitter works well with such a system because of the short, text-only content. A relay could easily be set up to transcribe data off a long-wave radio onto a non-Iranian network connection.

47 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:18:01am

OT:
Al-Qaida in Arabian Peninsula are claiming responsibility for the attempted bombing of a Delta airliner in Detroit. That would be the AQ branch in Yemen. It would also be the site where the US hopes to release 95 detainees if the price is right so as to facilitate closing Gitmo.

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:18:37am

re: #45 Ben Hur

Be careful with that.

We were told that the Iraqis also hated their regime.

But I've learned that it they really LOVED the Saddam regime during Bush's war on the Iraqi people...

The Sunni's loved Saddam (IIRC) the Shia didn't.

49 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:19:00am

re: #47 lawhawk

OT:
Al-Qaida in Arabian Peninsula are claiming responsibility for the attempted bombing of a Delta airliner in Detroit. That would be the AQ branch in Yemen. It would also be the site where the US hopes to release 95 detainees if the price is right so as to facilitate closing Gitmo.

ODS

You don't scare me with your boogie men.

/

50 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:19:41am

re: #47 lawhawk

OT:
Al-Qaida in Arabian Peninsula are claiming responsibility for the attempted bombing of a Delta airliner in Detroit. That would be the AQ branch in Yemen. It would also be the site where the US hopes to release 95 detainees if the price is right so as to facilitate closing Gitmo.

If you track back to 9/11 some of the logistics and planning occurred in a safe house in Sana'a

51 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:20:50am

re: #48 ggt

The Sunni's loved Saddam (IIRC) the Shia didn't.

Only because of Bush.

52 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:20:52am

Don't worry, they'll get the the big story out...that the Iranian opposition is on their own over there, all alone facing arrest, beatings, summary executions and imprisonment, and they asked Obama not to mix in because it would give their government an excuse to suppress them.
What a story!
What a pile of horse feathers!

53 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:22:08am

re: #52 Spare O'Lake

Who is "they" ?

/they seem to be everywhere...

54 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:23:31am

re: #53 Thanos

Who is "they" ?

/they seem to be everywhere...

Some one sent that Question to Dave Letterman during and during the Viewer Mail segment he answerd it --early '80's.

the answer is:

THE DICK VAN PATTEN FAMILY.

55 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #52 Spare O'Lake

Don't worry, they'll get the the big story out...that the Iranian opposition is on their own over there, all alone facing arrest, beatings, summary executions and imprisonment, and they asked Obama not to mix in because it would give their government an excuse to suppress them.
What a story!
What a pile of horse feathers!

It's a damn bit more admirable than waiting for others to do it for you....then not doing it when others have died so you can do it, no?

We're helping as much as we can, and more than we probably know.

56 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:24:43am

re: #55 Ben Hur

It's a damn bit more admirable than waiting for others to do it for you...then not doing it when others have died so you can do it, no?

We're helping as much as we can, and more than we probably know.

or need to know.

57 HelloDare  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:24:53am

The View from the Gulag

An interview with Natan Sharansky: He describes the "beautiful moment" when the news of the Evil Empire speech reached Siberia.

Were there any particular Reagan moments that you can recall being sources of strength or encouragement to you and your colleagues?

I have to laugh. People who take freedom for granted, Ronald Reagan for granted, always ask such questions. Of course! It was the great brilliant moment when we learned that Ronald Reagan had proclaimed the Soviet Union an Evil Empire before the entire world. There was a long list of all the Western leaders who had lined up to condemn the evil Reagan for daring to call the great Soviet Union an evil empire right next to the front-page story about this dangerous, terrible man who wanted to take the world back to the dark days of the Cold War. This was the moment. It was the brightest, most glorious day. Finally a spade had been called a spade. Finally, Orwell's Newspeak was dead. President Reagan had from that moment made it impossible for anyone in the West to continue closing their eyes to the real nature of the Soviet Union.

It was one of the most important, freedom-affirming declarations, and we all instantly knew it. For us, that was the moment that really marked the end for them, and the beginning for us. The lie had been exposed and could never, ever be untold now. This was the end of Lenin's "Great October Bolshevik Revolution" and the beginning of a new revolution, a freedom revolution--Reagan's Revolution.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #13 ralphieboy

Under "well regulated militia" I assume we mean a buncha good ol' boys in pickup trucks with gun racks?

///

I have a long and detailed theory about tying legal gun ownership to local militia membership, but we'll save that for a LOOOOONG winter's night.

59 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:25:07am

re: #54 ggt

Some one sent that Question to Dave Letterman during and during the Viewer Mail segment he answerd it --early '80's.

the answer is:

THE DICK VAN PATTEN FAMILY.

I just want to make sure we aren't talking about THEM

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:25:29am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're just making their way the only way they know how.

Well, that's just a little bit more than the law will allow.

61 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:26:23am

Where did Iran get the technology to do this? Nokia Siemens.


The Washington Times reported in April that Nokia Siemens Networks had sold Iran's telecom company a "monitoring center." The product's promotional material says the center can sort and catalogue phone calls, e-mails and other Web communications. The portion of the business that deals with the monitoring center was sold at the end of March to a private German holding company, but the bad publicity has caused potential problems for Siemens business in the U.S.
62 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:26:47am

re: #61 Baier
PIMF -
LINK
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

63 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:26:57am

re: #59 Thanos

I just want to make sure we aren't talking about THEM

shhhh,

It's really the Cat Overlords.

64 AK-47%  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:26:59am

There is a brand of satellite dish antenna here called SatAn. Which is reason enough for the Muuahs to be confiscating them, they are the devil's teacups!

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:27:19am

re: #21 Baier

It'd probably turn into something more like Gaza. Why do you think the US is constantly confiscating weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Afghanistan: evidence that a well-armed society can be just as thoroughly screwed up, albeit in a different way, than a disarmed society. ALthough I understand they are awfully polite, when not shooting you.

Actually, most of the Middle East falls into that category. Yemen actually outdoes the U.S. for private gun ownership, IIRC, but they still have a shitty and abusive government.

66 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:27:39am

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that's just a little bit more than the law will allow.

Whew, finally someone chimed in. Got left hanging there.

67 marsl  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:28:21am

Hmmmm.... next time Dinnerjacket will come to an american college and will say: there are no opposition in Iran. And no gay people too... they all are hanging up together...

68 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #61 Baier

They've also instructed their proxies Hamas and Hizballah to build their own systems. I gather for the same reasons.

69 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a long and detailed theory about tying legal gun ownership to local militia membership, but we'll save that for a LOOONG winter's night.

It's a bit much to presume that any "well regulated militia" could go up against an established and vast modern military. This would include ground forces, navies, and air forces which the Iranian regime currently hold in high numbers. This may have worked in the 18th century when things could have been seen as muskets versus muskets but in the 21st century "well regulated militias" of hand guns and rifles cannot stand against an established air force and ground forces.

70 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:30:16am

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

Afghanistan: evidence that a well-armed society can be just as thoroughly screwed up, albeit in a different way, than a disarmed society. ALthough I understand they are awfully polite, when not shooting you.

Actually, most of the Middle East falls into that category. Yemen actually outdoes the U.S. for private gun ownership, IIRC, but they still have a shitty and abusive government.

I think it's the perception of the purpose of legal gun ownership. Self-defense, and property defense is technically where the US citizen's right start and end. We've also had over 200 years of this mindset--and a different history than the Yemen people.

Scholarly books have been written on the subject (i've actually read some of them --eeek!). You are right, it would take a LONG winter's night to hash it all out.

71 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:31:52am

Mousavi nephew's body is seized

Iran’s beleaguered regime struck back at the resurgent opposition today, arresting several leading activists and confiscating the corpse of Mir Hossein Mousavi’s nephew to prevent his funeral becoming another massive anti-government demonstration.

The regime moved to shore up its position the day after its security forces killed at least eight protestors and wounded scores more in the most violent clashes since the immediate aftermath of June’s disputed presidential election. The opposition claimed that 550 of its supporters were arrested, though the official figure was 300.

The brutality of the security forces on the Shia religious holiday of Ashura was condemned around the world. David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, praised the courage of the protesters and called on Iran to respect the rights of its citizens. Even Russia, one of Iran’s main trading partners, called for restraint.

Those killed yesterday included Seyed Ali Mousavi, nephew of the opposition leader, who was shot in the chest. Tehran was rife with speculation that he had been assassinated in order to send a message to his uncle, and the Government moved rapidly to prevent his death becoming another rallying point for the opposition.

72 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:32:22am

re: #69 Gus 802

It's a bit much to presume that any "well regulated militia" could go up against an established and vast modern military. This would include ground forces, navies, and air forces which the Iranian regime currently hold in high numbers. This may have worked in the 18th century when things could have been seen as muskets versus muskets but in the 21st century "well regulated militias" of hand guns and rifles cannot stand against an established air force and ground forces.

/buh buh buht... Wolverines!!!

Seriously, in a standing battle no. In a low level guerilla insurgency, yes, they can fight back. Look at the trouble the Taliban are giving the Pakistani military right now.

73 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:34:29am

re: #69 Gus 802

It's a bit much to presume that any "well regulated militia" could go up against an established and vast modern military. This would include ground forces, navies, and air forces which the Iranian regime currently hold in high numbers. This may have worked in the 18th century when things could have been seen as muskets versus muskets but in the 21st century "well regulated militias" of hand guns and rifles cannot stand against an established air force and ground forces.

IIRC, when the Constitution was formed, there was no provision for a standing army. Therefore a "well-regulated militia" was national defense. This is the argument of the gun-control advocates.

I think the idea of armed-citizens who will defend their lives, their familes and their property makes for a government respectful of the powers that have been delegated to them.

It's a different (perhaps American) mindset than what much of the world has.

74 Baier  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:34:33am

re: #72 Thanos

/buh buh buht... Wolverines!!!

Seriously, in a standing battle no. In a low level guerilla insurgency, yes, they can fight back. Look at the trouble the Taliban are giving the Pakistani military right now.

There is some question as to how seriously Pakistan is in defeating the Taliban.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:34:49am

re: #69 Gus 802

It's a bit much to presume that any "well regulated militia" could go up against an established and vast modern military. This would include ground forces, navies, and air forces which the Iranian regime currently hold in high numbers. This may have worked in the 18th century when things could have been seen as muskets versus muskets but in the 21st century "well regulated militias" of hand guns and rifles cannot stand against an established air force and ground forces.

Oh, I quite agree. My Extremely Elaborate Plan mostly envisions the militia as a local emergency service network, adapted to local needs.

76 Sacred Plants  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:35:15am

Apparently the turmoil in Persia has reached a point where the communication has become stronger than the surveillance. In the last uprising the internet was slowed down to the speed of the surveillance capacities, now it is being slowed down to zero, which seems to be the remaining value of the surveillance capacities to the regime.

Hope the insurgents still can achieve a close-down of Tehran international airport for all regime diplomacy.

77 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:35:23am

re: #72 Thanos

/buh buh buht... Wolverines!!!

Seriously, in a standing battle no. In a low level guerilla insurgency, yes, they can fight back. Look at the trouble the Taliban are giving the Pakistani military right now.

Right. A guerilla insurgency would make an impact rather than citizens with guns. Of course that would take organization and a deep network. It would still not guarantee success.

78 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:35:38am

re: #74 Baier

There is some question as to how seriously Pakistan is in defeating the Taliban.

Pakistan is it's own thread subject ---eeeeek!

:)

79 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:35:53am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, I quite agree. My Extremely Elaborate Plan mostly envisions the militia as a local emergency service network, adapted to local needs.

Can I interest you in a fighter jet?

/

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:36:22am

re: #70 ggt

I think it's the perception of the purpose of legal gun ownership. Self-defense, and property defense is technically where the US citizen's right start and end. We've also had over 200 years of this mindset--and a different history than the Yemen people.

Scholarly books have been written on the subject (i've actually read some of them --eeek!). You are right, it would take a LONG winter's night to hash it all out.

Absolutely. I tend to take the stand that we start from the Magna Carta--well, earlier really--not from the flintlock. Weapons do not produce the rule of law, they are simply part of the rights of citizens.

81 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:37:23am

re: #74 Baier

There is some question as to how seriously Pakistan is in defeating the Taliban.

They are at civil war right now, and have been the past 8 months, they are somewhat serious this time. In the past it's been punitive jabs and retreats, this time they've been head hunting with mixed results. When Fazlur is saying "no negotiations with the Taliban" then you know it's not mock battle.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:37:32am

re: #73 ggt

IIRC, when the Constitution was formed, there was no provision for a standing army. Therefore a "well-regulated militia" was national defense. This is the argument of the gun-control advocates.

I think the idea of armed-citizens who will defend their lives, their familes and their property makes for a government respectful of the powers that have been delegated to them.

It's a different (perhaps American) mindset than what much of the world has.

I would say that the thought-process goes back even farther than that.

83 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:37:59am

re: #79 Gus 802

Can I interest you in a fighter jet?

/

Pfffttt, I can offer SFZ several Imperial-II Class Star Destroyers.
/half off! :)

84 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:38:18am

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

I would say that the thought-process goes back even farther than that.

Absolutely, but it is not a long winter's night . . .

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:38:38am

re: #79 Gus 802

Can I interest you in a fighter jet?

/

Sure. That will come in handy if we ever go to war with El Sobrante.

/

86 jayzee  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:39:18am

Sadly no surprise here. It was going to happen and now the crackdown will begin in earnest. My prayers go out to those Iranians who truly want freedom, an end to the theocracy and normalized relations with the western world.

87 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:39:32am

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

Absolutely. I tend to take the stand that we start from the Magna Carta--well, earlier really--not from the flintlock. Weapons do not produce the rule of law, they are simply part of the rights of citizens.

We could go back to the Romans or Hammarabi, but I'd have to pull out my books for reference . .

:)

88 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:39:39am

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure. That will come in handy if we ever go to war with El Sobrante.

/

Can we elicit the assistance of Walnut Creek? /

89 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #71 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm not sure I'd trust the Iranian regime with the proper disposal of a body.

Ask the Khomeini family. /

90 Ghazicide  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:40:21am

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure. That will come in handy if we ever go to war with El Sobrante.

/

Personally I'd take out San Pablo first.

91 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:40:53am

re: #87 ggt

We could go back to the Romans or Hammarabi, but I'd have to pull out my books for reference . .

:)


If Able had been packing something besides a sheaf of wheat the whole of human history might have been different. /

92 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:41:11am

re: #89 DaddyG

I'm not sure I'd trust the Iranian regime with the proper disposal of a body.

Ask the Khomeini family. /

I think grabbing the body was a major blunder for the Iranians and its going to blow up on them.

93 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #77 Gus 802

Right. A guerilla insurgency would make an impact rather than citizens with guns. Of course that would take organization and a deep network. It would still not guarantee success.

Insurgencies are only rarely successful. The ones that have been generally overturned highly abusive tyrants, or they are continually fed from a neighbor.

The recent change to that has been the "green revolutions" - where enough civil disobedience goes on continuously that the ruling party or tyrant has to throw in the towel. Europe has several examples of that post communism, and Nepal and Lebanon also come to mind. That's the only hope that the Iranian opposition has.

94 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:41:56am

re: #92 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think grabbing the body was a major blunder for the Iranians and its going to blow up on them.


They are just elevating his status as martyr. I agree. (my tasteless humor above notwithstanding).

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:42:01am

re: #87 ggt

We could go back to the Romans or Hammarabi, but I'd have to pull out my books for reference . .

:)

Yeah, that's part of it, but I think the real core comes out of Germanic/Scandinavian tribal law, and the early predecessors to English common law. That's where England really diverges from places where Roman legal styles took deeper root.

96 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:42:13am

Breaking news...

OT

Al Qaeda claims responsibility for failed terror attack


Romulus, Michigan (CNN) -- Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claimed responsibility for the attempted Christmas Day terrorist attack on a plane about to land in the U.S., saying it was in retaliation for alleged U.S. strikes on Yemeni soil.
97 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:42:49am

re: #83 Varek Raith

Pfffttt, I can offer SFZ several Imperial-II Class Star Destroyers.
/half off! :)

I got a gross of Blackstone Fortress I need to unload.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #96 Gus 802

Breaking news...

OT

Al Qaeda claims responsibility for failed terror attack


Does that mean that they did it, or they just want credit for it?

99 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:12am
100 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:16am

wouldn't it be delicious if we could actually speak to two or three of the framers of the Constitution just for a few hours
I'm sure we'd get an earful ("I can't beleive you interpreted us to mean THAT")(("If we knew you people would have turned out like this, and altered the language the way you have, we would have been MUCH clearer in our words"))

101 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:21am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Does that mean that they did it, or they just want credit for it?

You read my mind.

Yeah.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:23am

re: #97 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got a gross of Blackstone Fortress I need to unload.

My little East Bay suburb is gonna KICK ASS!

103 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:50am

re: #86 jayzee

Sadly no surprise here. It was going to happen and now the crackdown will begin in earnest. My prayers go out to those Iranians who truly want freedom, an end to the theocracy and normalized relations with the western world.

I was very surprised to see the riots flame up again...There is some underlying anger and pissed off citizens in Iran...
I can see a deep felt momentum developing in that country...

104 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:43:56am

re: #97 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got a gross of Blackstone Fortress I need to unload.

Is that a Halliburton product?

105 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:44:08am

re: #89 DaddyG

I'm not sure I'd trust the Iranian regime with the proper disposal of a body.

Ask the Khomeini family. /

Hell was full, so Khomeini was sentenced to spend eternity at his own funeral.

106 Olsonist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:44:28am

re: #10 HelloDare

Never has the Second Amendment seemed so out of place. If it comes down to guns, the state always has more guns.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:44:34am

re: #100 sattv4u2

wouldn't it be delicious if we could actually speak to two or three of the framers of the Constitution just for a few hours
I'm sure we'd get an earful ("I can't beleive you interpreted us to mean THAT")(("If we knew you people would have turned out like this, and altered the language the way you have, we would have been MUCH clearer in our words"))

I just wish I could send it back with red pencil notes for clarification. "A well-regulated militia...this clause just HANGS there. Make it clear how it is connected to the sentence."

108 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:44:43am

re: #93 Thanos

Insurgencies are only rarely successful. The ones that have been generally overturned highly abusive tyrants, or they are continually fed from a neighbor.

The recent change to that has been the "green revolutions" - where enough civil disobedience goes on continuously that the ruling party or tyrant has to throw in the towel. Europe has several examples of that post communism, and Nepal and Lebanon also come to mind. That's the only hope that the Iranian opposition has.

Yes. A multi-level approach would be better including civil disobedience, general strikes, etc. That's long road to haul but can be rather effective.

109 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:44:48am

re: #103 HoosierHoops

I was very surprised to see the riots flame up again...There is some underlying anger and pissed off citizens in Iran...
I can see a deep felt momentum developing in that country...


I hope these aren't just a series of fits and starts that keep getting crushed.

110 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:45:05am

re: #103 HoosierHoops

Talk about pissed off citizens, how are Colts fans today!?!?!

YIKES !

111 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:45:59am

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

I just wish I could send it back with red pencil notes for clarification. "A well-regulated militia...this clause just HANGS there. Make it clear how it is connected to the sentence."

Sure ,, scold Jefferson/Adams/ et al

see how YOUR Karma goes

112 Kragar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:47:15am

re: #104 DaddyG

Is that a Halliburton product?

Not quite. By way of comparison, a Blackstone Fortress is to the Death Star what a Mercedes is to a Yugo.

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:47:30am

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that's part of it, but I think the real core comes out of Germanic/Scandinavian tribal law, and the early predecessors to English common law. That's where England really diverges from places where Roman legal styles took deeper root.

I think it from slave codes. Slaves were not allowed to carry arms or defend their bodies in any way. One of the hallmarks of a "free" man was that he would "carry arms" (usually a sword).

During Reconstruction the white supremecists considered just about anything useful as a weapon -- we don't have to look much further than our own history to see the illogic.

114 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:47:38am
115 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:47:50am

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not quite. By way of comparison, a Blackstone Fortress is to the Death Star what a Mercedes is to a Yugo.

...a Yugo with an exhaust issue.

116 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:48:36am

The sad thing here is that this could be the first day of a permanent curtain. Iran could be going retrograde towards a state like North Korea. That would be bad indeed.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:48:47am

OT: We had an excellent showing in San Francisco yesterday at the counterprotest against the 'memorial service' for Operation Cast Lead. Reports were there were almost as many of us as of them. Lots of new people. Good energy.

Plus, I got to have a conversation with a man who wandered into our group to explain that neither we nor the Palestinians had a right to the land, since the original Israelites were black Africans (much like himself, oddly).

I still do not know what to do about people who drive up in SUVs with Palestinian flags waving out of all windows, encouraging their kids to wave flags too. My instinct is to simultaneously scream "Am Yisrael Chai!" at the parents and smile sweetly at the kids. This is hard to do with only one face.

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:49:37am

re: #111 sattv4u2

Sure ,, scold Jefferson/Adams/ et al

see how YOUR Karma goes

It's a lousy sentence! Sure, it's stylistically lovely, but it leaves so much...open...

119 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:50:17am

re: #111 sattv4u2
re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Have you guys ever heard of the anti federalist papers?
Not sure how much gets into the 2nd if at all, but this shows the counterpoint thinking at the time.

120 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:50:34am

re: #116 Thanos

The sad thing here is that this could be the first day of a permanent curtain. Iran could be going retrograde towards a state like North Korea. That would be bad indeed.

I guess hoping for an Iranian coup d'état in favor of the opposition would be asking for much. That's another possibility.

121 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:50:43am

re: #105 The Sanity Inspector

Hell was full, so Khomeini was sentenced to spend eternity at his own funeral.

An eternity of eating pulled pork sandwiches and listening to the System of the Down.. at full Marshall stack volume (11) and 72 bored Hookers from Jersey and only the playboy channel or American Idol on TV...
Hell..Just hell
/

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:50:51am

re: #113 ggt

I think it from slave codes. Slaves were not allowed to carry arms or defend their bodies in any way. One of the hallmarks of a "free" man was that he would "carry arms" (usually a sword).

During Reconstruction the white supremecists considered just about anything useful as a weapon -- we don't have to look much further than our own history to see the illogic.

One of the features of the arrangements early medieval Jewish communities would make with the owners of the land they settled on was that they always insisted on the right to bear arms. This was practical, but it was also a way of making sure they wouldn't be reclassified as a serfs at any time.

123 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:51:30am

re: #120 Gus 802

I guess hoping for an Iranian coup d'état in favor of the opposition would be asking for much. That's another possibility.

But...but..but...we don't know what the alternative is.

/The excuse I always here when discussing regime change in the ME.

124 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:51:58am

re: #121 HoosierHoops

An eternity of eating pulled pork sandwiches and listening to the System of the Down.. at full Marshall stack volume (11) and 72 bored Hookers from Jersey and only the playboy channel or American Idol on TV...
Hell..Just hell
/

I am so there.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:52:07am

re: #119 Rightwingconspirator

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Have you guys ever heard of the anti federalist papers?
Not sure how much gets into the 2nd if at all, but this shows the counterpoint thinking at the time.

I'm aware that the writing exists, but I still haven't read the Federalist Papers. I carried a copy through most of my twenties. Always read a couple of pages and lost interest.

Perhaps I should try again.

126 Gus  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:54:05am

re: #123 Ben Hur

But...but..but...we don't know what the alternative is.

/The excuse I always here when discussing regime change in the ME.

Getting rid of Dinnerjacket would be a nice start. Followed by the Mullahs. Of course we are still looking at known unknowns.

127 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:54:45am

re: #126 Gus 802

Getting rid of Dinnerjacket would be a nice start. Followed by the Mullahs. Of course we are still looking at known unknowns.

100%

128 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm aware that the writing exists, but I still haven't read the Federalist Papers. I carried a copy through most of my twenties. Always read a couple of pages and lost interest.

Perhaps I should try again.

oooh, you should.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:55:45am

re: #123 Ben Hur

But...but..but...we don't know what the alternative is.

/The excuse I always here when discussing regime change in the ME.

We don't. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. That said, I wouldn't mind if Ahmendinejad met with an bizarre gardening acccident.

130 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:55:52am

re: #110 sattv4u2

Talk about pissed off citizens, how are Colts fans today!?!?!

YIKES !

They had to hold Peyton down after the game in the locker room and pour gallons of booze down his throat..He was pretty mellow during his presser..
Deep inside..We want our guys healthy for the play-offs.. We can beat anybody in football when healthy..And everybody knows it..
But the are a bunch off pissed off Colts fans right now..I was at the story this morning and people were pissed..The girl at the counter wanted a refund on her ticket!

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:55:57am

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm aware that the writing exists, but I still haven't read the Federalist Papers. I carried a copy through most of my twenties. Always read a couple of pages and lost interest.

Perhaps I should try again.

Mostly what I remember from them is that NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

teehee

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:56:26am

re: #131 ggt

Mostly what I remember from them is that NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

teehee

Hey, they're probably online now!

133 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:56:32am

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that's part of it, but I think the real core comes out of Germanic/Scandinavian tribal law, and the early predecessors to English common law. That's where England really diverges from places where Roman legal styles took deeper root.

True. England, after all, had a law that mandated every male in the country had to own a longbow, and practice with it at least once per week. I believe this dates back to the 15th century, maybe the 16th, when the longbow put England on the map as a nearly invincible military power.

France tried to develop a longbow corps in response (and after getting their asses paddled badly in a couple of noteworthy battles) but they never developed the proficiency that the English did, largely because they simply didn't trust their citizenry to possess weapons that might be turned against the state. As a result, only soldiers stayed in practice, and they were often both poorly trained and poorly suited to archery, whereas England could draw from the best it's entire populace had to offer.

I'm quite certain that the right of individuals to bear arms derives from this experience.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:59:40am

re: #133 SixDegrees

True. England, after all, had a law that mandated every male in the country had to own a longbow, and practice with it at least once per week. I believe this dates back to the 15th century, maybe the 16th, when the longbow put England on the map as a nearly invincible military power.

France tried to develop a longbow corps in response (and after getting their asses paddled badly in a couple of noteworthy battles) but they never developed the proficiency that the English did, largely because they simply didn't trust their citizenry to possess weapons that might be turned against the state. As a result, only soldiers stayed in practice, and they were often both poorly trained and poorly suited to archery, whereas England could draw from the best it's entire populace had to offer.

I'm quite certain that the right of individuals to bear arms derives from this experience.

Fourteenth century, I think, is when the longbow really came into its own. By the sixteenth, guns are starting to take over.

The French tried to rely on crossbows, and hired help. Not as effective. I had a medieval history professor in college who would do the numbers on the board--basically, not until the American Civil War did a one-man gun have the range and accuracy of a longbow used by a man who knew what he was doing with one.

135 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 11:59:46am

re: #133 SixDegrees

And firearms supplanted archery less from being superior to them than to the fact that you could get reasonable/acceptable competence with a lot less training and practice it took to work up to the physical requirements of a good longbowman.

From a control standpoint the government would prefer it as well since firearms (and powder) require greater specialization and materials to produce and thus would be easier to monitor.

136 DaddyG  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:00:24pm

re: #130 HoosierHoops


But the are a bunch off pissed off Colts fans right now..I was at the story this morning and people were pissed..The girl at the counter wanted a refund on her ticket!

Don't get those Hoosiers riled up they might just come at you with "gosh darn it!" or "Shucks!"

Now imagine if it were an Indiana college basketball team that was holding back before the playoffs! /

137 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:00:51pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

Seems to odd we do not see the simple universal right of self defense advocated much outside of the 2nd amendment discussion. The luxury of living in America.

The Iranians are now engaging in that simple act, to defend themselves against the oppression of their government. That's the big story today.
It also shows that citizen resistance to oppression suffers greatly in every scenario. A lack of arms comes 2 ways-First personally.

Second how much of the military sides with the people? As I recall the Chinese brought troops from Tibet to engage in the Tienanmen massacre. The local troops either let off the hook, or deferred. The local troops of course had relatives in the square. Very dicey moment there.

138 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:01:13pm

There is some history about the Scots and individual right to bear arms that plays a big part in all this.

I can't remember it all -- British did house-to-house search and confiscate and many Scots emigrated to the States . . . .

139 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:02:04pm

I see as I have another week of vacation ahead of me, I'd better start using the PIMF button..Jeez...
I've watched a bunch of movies I will be reviewing in the coming days..But they mostly suck...

140 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist

We don't. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. That said, I wouldn't mind if Ahmendinejad met with an bizarre gardening acccident.

ShortShit is really a gnome.

141 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:03:15pm

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist
It's not exciting stuff really, but helpful to try to imagine the mind set enough to get over all the changes in culture, the nation, and of course technology like travel and war. Or try anyway.
LOL, it's hard to read intent with contemporary politicians!

142 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:05:13pm

re: #133 SixDegrees

True. England, after all, had a law that mandated every male in the country had to own a longbow, and practice with it at least once per week. I believe this dates back to the 15th century, maybe the 16th, when the longbow put England on the map as a nearly invincible military power.

France tried to develop a longbow corps in response (and after getting their asses paddled badly in a couple of noteworthy battles) but they never developed the proficiency that the English did, largely because they simply didn't trust their citizenry to possess weapons that might be turned against the state. As a result, only soldiers stayed in practice, and they were often both poorly trained and poorly suited to archery, whereas England could draw from the best it's entire populace had to offer.

I'm quite certain that the right of individuals to bear arms derives from this experience.

Ad for French longbow:

Never plucked. Dropped once.

143 rwmofo  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:07:01pm

re: #133 SixDegrees

"I'm quite certain that the right of individuals to bear arms derives from this experience."

Quite certain.

144 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:08:36pm

Gotta go, have a great day all!

145 Digital Display  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:10:17pm

re: #136 DaddyG

Don't get those Hoosiers riled up they might just come at you with "gosh darn it!" or "Shucks!"

Now imagine if it were an Indiana college basketball team that was holding back before the playoffs! /

Don't get me going on about Ball..
/I think John Wall of the Wildcats my be the best young guards in 10 years...
he has it all..Shooting, passing, defense and hops inside...Some have called him a young Magic...
But they lie about his height...I know somebody that stood by him..He is 2 inches shorter than he is listed...
He is an athlete to behold

146 jayzee  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:22:19pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

OT: We had an excellent showing in San Francisco yesterday at the counterprotest against the 'memorial service' for Operation Cast Lead. Reports were there were almost as many of us as of them. Lots of new people. Good energy.

Plus, I got to have a conversation with a man who wandered into our group to explain that neither we nor the Palestinians had a right to the land, since the original Israelites were black Africans (much like himself, oddly).

I still do not know what to do about people who drive up in SUVs with Palestinian flags waving out of all windows, encouraging their kids to wave flags too. My instinct is to simultaneously scream "Am Yisrael Chai!" at the parents and smile sweetly at the kids. This is hard to do with only one face.

I went to a pro Israel rally in NY during the Yom Kippur war (it was succot I think) in NY. I was very young. Anyway, a pro Arab group formed across the street and started throwing rocks. The first rock thrown hit me in my special no no place. Some young guys then covered me, my sister and our friend with their bodies and took the hits.

Anyway, smiles would be much better than that.

147 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 12:36:56pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

OT: We had an excellent showing in San Francisco yesterday at the counterprotest against the 'memorial service' for Operation Cast Lead. Reports were there were almost as many of us as of them. Lots of new people. Good energy.

Plus, I got to have a conversation with a man who wandered into our group to explain that neither we nor the Palestinians had a right to the land, since the original Israelites were black Africans (much like himself, oddly).

I still do not know what to do about people who drive up in SUVs with Palestinian flags waving out of all windows, encouraging their kids to wave flags too. My instinct is to simultaneously scream "Am Yisrael Chai!" at the parents and smile sweetly at the kids. This is hard to do with only one face.

Carry a little Israeli flag in your purse and waive it with the Am Yisrael Chai and the smile!

148 Jerusalemyte  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 1:10:06pm

Arest people?? They don't waste the taxpayer's money with arrests. Protester's and their families will just meet with a series of unfortunate accidents.

149 jayzee  Mon, Dec 28, 2009 1:15:04pm

Iran News Now seems to be offline.


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