Obama Statement on Christmas Day Attack

US News • Views: 6,241

President Obama is making another statement on the failed terror attack on Christmas Day, and he isn’t mincing words about the failures of the system that’s supposed to identify possible threats.

Here’s a thread to discuss.

Quote:

What’s also clear is this: when our government has information on a known extremist, and that information is not shared and acted upon as it should have been, so that this extremist boards a plane with dangerous explosives that could have cost nearly 300 lives, a systemic failure has occurred. And I consider that totally unacceptable.

The reviews I’ve ordered will surely tell us more, but what’s already apparent is that there was a mix of human and systemic failures that contributed to this potential catastrophic breach of security. We need to learn from this episode and act quickly to fix the flaws in our system because our security is at stake and lives are at stake.

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215 comments
1 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:36:58pm

Good for him, now let's see some concretes rather than bureaucratic knee jerks from agencies as a result. He might go up a notch in my sight if he manages to accomplish that.

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:38:08pm

What else could he say? Hopefully the reviews have teeth and sane actions are taken.

3 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:38:51pm

re: #1 Thanos

Good for him, now let's see some concretes rather than bureaucratic knee jerks from agencies as a result. He might go up a notch in my sight if he manages to accomplish that.

I totally hear you and agree. Honestly, I think he will try his best.

4 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:41:39pm

The bottom line is that we have to cut out the feel-good crap that dominates current security measures, and start deploying technology that will actually work. Full body scan technology is one very good idea that's being resisted for no good reason.

At present we don't have a real passenger security strategy. We have a passenger annoyance strategy that's turned air travel into an ordeal without making anyone safer.

5 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:42:18pm

I really appreciate President Obama's intellect. I voted for him, so I'm inclined to support him. However, I think an objective person could look at the sum total of his speeches over his first year and reach that conclusion.
I know I'm a hopelessly ernest liberal!!!

6 jvic  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:42:59pm

Napolitano is going to Israel this weekend.

Maybe we are finally willing to learn airline security from people who know how to do it.

7 recusancy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:43:44pm

Jim DeMint is a tool.

8 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:43:53pm

re: #6 jvic

Let's hope so. See, there's that "hope" word again.

9 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:45:47pm

Jim DeMint is a Dominionist, and a perfect symbol of everything that's wrong with the GOP today.

10 recusancy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:46:43pm

re: #9 Charles

Jim DeMint is a Dominionist, and a perfect symbol of everything that's wrong with the GOP today.

Are you watching him on CNN right now? Trying to hold up the TSA chief in the senate because he's a union guy. Ridiculous.

11 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:46:46pm

re: #4 Charles

The bottom line is that we have to cut out the feel-good crap that dominates current security measures, and start deploying technology that will actually work. Full body scan technology is one very good idea that's being resisted for no good reason.

At present we don't have a real passenger security strategy. We have a passenger annoyance strategy that's turned air travel into an ordeal without making anyone safer.

Well it depends on the device. With a lot of them, you really can see a person's privates. In principle though I agree, if proper safe guards were taken to prevent abuse.

Specifically, the same gender looks at you when you go through - and there are no recordings - or at the very least, an instant purge of any recording unless something is detected.

12 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:48:08pm

re: #6 jvic

Napolitano is going to Israel this weekend.

Maybe we are finally willing to learn airline security from people who know how to do it.

Obama's TSA nominee was also trained by the Israelis but the Republicans are still holding up the nomination.

13 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:48:19pm

Of course Hoekstra already has a disgusting fund-raising letter out trying to capitalize on the attack and demonize Obama while simultaneously bemoaning partisan politics.

14 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:49:17pm

re: #4 Charles

The bottom line is that we have to cut out the feel-good crap that dominates current security measures, and start deploying technology that will actually work. Full body scan technology is one very good idea that's being resisted for no good reason.

At present we don't have a real passenger security strategy. We have a passenger annoyance strategy that's turned air travel into an ordeal without making anyone safer.

While I don't agree that throwing more money at technological solutions is the best use of our resources, it's apparent that current thinking is nearly inverted. The emphasis ought to have been preventing this guy from ever obtaining a visa in the first place, not on making passengers strap themselves in with their hands on their laps or creating even deeper bottlenecks at security checkpoints. That's all very theatrical, but at that point the enemy is already at the gates, or even inside them.

15 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:49:18pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Obama's TSA nominee was also trained by the Israelis but the Republicans are still holding up the nomination.

The resume of the TSA guy sounds very impressive. He should be put in place.

16 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:50:41pm

re: #15 Cineaste

I agree. I suspect the claims that he's some sort of union radical are probably bogus.

17 recusancy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:52:16pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Obama's TSA nominee was also trained by the Israelis but the Republicans are still holding up the nomination.

Erroll Southers:

"Southers’s background in counter-terrorism study in Israel, at the invitation of the ministry of foreign affairs, has made him a reputable source in counter-terrorism education. He returned to Israel in December for an International Consequence Management Seminar hosted by the Israeli Defense Force’s Home Front Command’s Civil Defense School. "
18 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:53:12pm

Reid Will Force Confirmation Of TSA Administrator Errol Southers Back Into Motion

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will force the confirmation of a Transportation Security Administration chief back into motion as soon as the Senate reconvenes on January 19th.

Talking Points Memo reports: "Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will schedule a formal Senate roll call vote on the nomination of Errol Southers," the Obama appointee who Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) has blocked for the past four months over worries about TSA employees being able to unionize. Reid will file a cloture motion to overcome DeMint's block.


Wow, I wasn't aware this had been going on for so long.

19 HelloDare  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:53:22pm

The major failures were human and policy failures, not technology. The guy should have been on a no-fly list. His visa should have been taken away.

Terrorists will find a way around the body scans. Can they detect a suppository?

Sure, let's have the latest technology. But it will do little good without a complete overhaul on the thinking that kept this guy off the no-fly list.

20 recusancy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:54:45pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

I agree. I suspect the claims that he's some sort of union radical are probably bogus.

It's because he wants collective bargaining. The same thing that police and firemen and every other first responder has. Demint's argument is that with collective bargaining TSA won't be flexible enough to react to bad situations. BS. It's just about being anti-union. Nothing more.

21 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:55:03pm

This is the kind of sick crap that's all over the right wing blogosphere:

[Link: transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com...]

The blogger who posted this is a blatant liar who tried to deny he posted a comment at LGF advocating mass deportations -- I outed him as a liar, and he just continued lying.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

22 webevintage  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:56:54pm

ZOMG!!11111!!!! He did not say TERRORIST out loud!!!!
Worst President Evah!
/

23 KingKenrod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:57:10pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Obama's TSA nominee was also trained by the Israelis but the Republicans are still holding up the nomination.

Now that the heat is on, Reid will force a vote on Southers after the Senate recess:

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com...]

Which maybe he should have already done, instead of trying to avoid debate, just as Obama shouldn't have taken 8 months to nominate a chief in the first place if having Southers in place was really that critical. This whole thing is such a nontroversy!

Besides, none of this really matters because the TSA has a very capable acting chief, Gale Rossides. I think you'll find her qualified:

[Link: www.tsa.gov...]

24 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:57:45pm

re: #19 HelloDare

wait, suppository bombs?

Pass the pipe around, man!


Obamas statement left me with the idea that he's being overly harsh on our system because he has to be seen doing something after this kind of an attempt. I'm not saying its perfect, but I don't see how anything has changed from when we were talking about htis yesterday.

25 RealismRox  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:57:58pm

re: #4 Charles

The bottom line is that we have to cut out the feel-good crap that dominates current security measures, and start deploying technology that will actually work. Full body scan technology is one very good idea that's being resisted for no good reason.

I think people are genuinely uncomfortable with strangers looking at their naked bodies. However, this recent incident demonstrates the need for this type of scanning, and people just have to live with loss of privacy.

26 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:58:20pm

re: #19 HelloDare

The major failures were human and policy failures, not technology. The guy should have been on a no-fly list. His visa should have been taken away.

Terrorists will find a way around the body scans. Can they detect a suppository?

Sure, let's have the latest technology. But it will do little good without a complete overhaul on the thinking that kept this guy off the no-fly list.

He was on a no-fly list - in Britain. Somehow, we failed to share that information properly.

I agree that body scans can be defeated, at a tiny fraction of their installation cost, while human intelligence techniques can be rapidly adapted to shifting enemy methods.

I've got a longish post downstairs that goes into this in somewhat more detail.

27 KingKenrod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:59:01pm

I'm very impressed with Obama's statement, I hope he carries through with his promises.

28 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:59:15pm
29 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 1:59:46pm

OT: Code Pink is still stalled in Cairo. They claim they were beaten and imprisoned by Egyptian police outside the U.S. embassy.

30 Blueheron  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:00:01pm

re: #5 prairiefire

I really appreciate President Obama's intellect. I voted for him, so I'm inclined to support him. However, I think an objective person could look at the sum total of his speeches over his first year and reach that conclusion.
I know I'm a hopelessly ernest liberal!!!


Ah I still like you Prairie :))

31 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:00:37pm

Jeeze, there are five uses of "I" "we" "us" or "our in that quote alone. This guy's arrogance knows no bounds!

//////////

32 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:00:40pm

Hopefully the "...not shared and acted upon as it should have been." comment means he will get serious about the difficulty of getting various agencies to share intel.

33 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:01:09pm

re: #30 Blueheron

Thanks, Blueheron! The feeling is mutual.

34 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:01:09pm

re: #26 SixDegrees

'suppose that the answer is that we can't focus on any one part of the puzzle as a magic pill. Scanners and human intelligence techniques can improve security, especially if used in tandem.

35 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:01:34pm

it sounds like we need to do more "profiling," but that's a dirty word.

36 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:02:27pm

re: #21 Charles

Respectfully, you really should stop being surprised by the fact that little pathetic blog nazis are liars too.

37 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:02:53pm

re: #19 HelloDare

The major failures were human and policy failures, not technology. The guy should have been on a no-fly list. His visa should have been taken away.

Terrorists will find a way around the body scans. Can they detect a suppository?

Sure, let's have the latest technology. But it will do little good without a complete overhaul on the thinking that kept this guy off the no-fly list.

Why shouldn't we do both? The debates over what we should do drive me crazy - we should try to detect as best we can all terrorists, and we should try to detect as best we can all bombs. Doing both better ensures the likelihood of success.

38 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:03:01pm

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

Well it depends on the device. With a lot of them, you really can see a person's privates. In principle though I agree, if proper safe guards were taken to prevent abuse.

Specifically, the same gender looks at you when you go through - and there are no recordings - or at the very least, an instant purge of any recording unless something is detected.

They adressed those concerns, and yet the house still voted against deploying the machines...

TSA said it safeguards privacy by ensuring that all full-body images are viewed in a walled-off location not visible to the public. In addition, the security officer assisting the passenger cannot view the image and the officer who views the image never sees the passenger. Also, the machines cannot store, print or transmit any images they produce.

After all, McSeveny said, "all they are looking for is something that shouldn't be there."

39 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:03:13pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Reid Will Force Confirmation Of TSA Administrator Errol Southers Back Into Motion


Wow, I wasn't aware this had been going on for so long.

yes, that was in the blub I posted this morning....something stinks, if unionizing the TSA is not one of Southers motives than what the hell?

40 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:03:18pm

Unfortunately, the most effective form of airline security is profiling and further scrutiny of passengers that fit a profile. This will never be implemented due to 'civil rights' objections. Technology will never keep us safe at the cost we are currently willing to spend on airline security.

41 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:04:12pm

re: #35 _RememberTonyC
re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

42 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:05:00pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock

I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

bullshit

43 mardukhai  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:06:19pm

The Israelis have the most secure system -- I wonder, can it be made to fit American needs? Can it be made to work here? And will we put up with it?

44 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:06:30pm

re: #42 albusteve

always with the positive input! :D

45 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:06:39pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

If you reduce the issue of profiling to your simplistic comment, it will never be put in use. I am talking about the type of profiling used in countries like Israel, which includes many factors.

46 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:06:56pm

re: #40 Gordon Marock

Unfortunately, the most effective form of airline security is profiling and further scrutiny of passengers that fit a profile. This will never be implemented due to 'civil rights' objections. Technology will never keep us safe at the cost we are currently willing to spend on airline security.

profiling is only as effective as a human doing the profiling and as effective as the profile, both have been found to be faulty in the past.
The best way to stop terror on our airlines is to screen for both terrorists and bombs.

47 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:06:57pm

re: #41 windsagio

Profiling encompasses many variables, only one of which is race. That is why people refer to "racial profiling" when specificity is desired.

Race can be an important component to profiling, but far from the only one.

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:07:27pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

Useful up to a point, crippling if we think we can rely on it.

49 Gang of One  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:07:47pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

When the Israelis do it at Ben Gurion, it is rarely racist.

50 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:08:17pm

re: #44 windsagio

always with the positive input! :D

this very subject was extensively covered in other earlier threads...you might want to go back and read some very enlightening stuff...unless people want to take it up again here

51 Gang of One  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:08:35pm

re: #43 mardukhai

The Israelis have the most secure system -- I wonder, can it be made to fit American needs? Can it be made to work here? And will we put up with it?

Only if there is sufficient political will and sufficient training of sufficiently intelligent people, IMHO.

52 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:08:37pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

For example, by reading your post, I can tell that you see racists around every corner.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:08:59pm

re: #51 Gang of One

Only if there is sufficient political will and sufficient training of sufficiently intelligent people, IMHO.

And the willingness to pay people what they're worth.

54 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:09:02pm

re: #14 SixDegrees

While I don't agree that throwing more money at technological solutions is the best use of our resources, it's apparent that current thinking is nearly inverted. The emphasis ought to have been preventing this guy from ever obtaining a visa in the first place, not on making passengers strap themselves in with their hands on their laps or creating even deeper bottlenecks at security checkpoints. That's all very theatrical, but at that point the enemy is already at the gates, or even inside them.

At the very least, there should be a mechanism/cross reference of databases that immediately spits out a name that has been put on TIDE and also holds a visa so an immediate review or revocation becomes possible.

55 mardukhai  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:09:18pm

Frankly, I don't care who can see my privates on a monitor as I go through security. I do care if they're scattered all over the countryside after a bomb goes off.

56 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:09:36pm

man, people really like profiling on here >>

Thanos is dead on with this subject. Looking to any single method as a magic pill is foolish, and profiling of any sort is spoofable, with effort.

also, 'conditionals!' I know they're hard to understand ;)

57 HelloDare  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:09:36pm

re: #37 Thanos

Why shouldn't we do both? The debates over what we should do drive me crazy - we should try to detect as best we can all terrorists, and we should try to detect as best we can all bombs. Doing both better ensures the likelihood of success.

Yes, we should do both. I don't understand how you got the impression that I meant we should do otherwise.

58 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:09:52pm

re: #52 Gordon Marock

Ah, you must be one of those guys who are psychic over TCP/IP.

Classy, too.

/

59 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:20pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Reid Will Force Confirmation Of TSA Administrator Errol Southers Back Into Motion


Wow, I wasn't aware this had been going on for so long.

Reading some of DeMint's absurdities:

That attack is a “perfect example of why the Obama Administration should not unionize the TSA and allow our airline security decisions to be dictated by union bosses," DeMint said in a statement.

DeMint said that if TSA workers were unionized under Southers, “union bosses” would have the power to delay further security improvements to airports.

“I hope this incident will lead the president to re-think this policy and put the interests of American travelers ahead of organized labor,” DeMint said.

So DeMint's answer to this is blocking the Southers appointment? The greater danger at this point is having a leaderless TSA as a result of DeMint's obstinance.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:26pm

re: #55 mardukhai

Frankly, I don't care who can see my privates on a monitor as I go through security. I do care if they're scattered all over the countryside after a bomb goes off.

Ditto.

61 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:28pm

re: #55 mardukhai

Frankly, I don't care who can see my privates on a monitor as I go through security. I do care if they're scattered all over the countryside after a bomb goes off.

I also do not care who sees my manhood, but only because it is so impressive.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

62 mardukhai  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:37pm

I've been profiled -- by the Israelis (which was odd, because I was a Jewish newspaper editor at the time), but we all landed safely.

63 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:45pm

re: #34 windsagio

'suppose that the answer is that we can't focus on any one part of the puzzle as a magic pill. Scanners and human intelligence techniques can improve security, especially if used in tandem.

re: #35 _RememberTonyC

Yes to both. Right now, we've got good scanning capabilities. Not body scans, but those are extremely expensive to capture that one in ten million bomb carriers who shouldn't have been granted a visa in the first place. Where we're lacking most, at the moment, is in human intelligence, both in the ability of our far-flung agents and allies to coordinate information like what was already known about this most recent case, to profiling and psychological evaluation and manipulation of people at airports, as is done by every other country on earth.

People whine about "racial" profiling, and I would actually agree that this is a bad practice, because any decent profiling procedure relies on a multitude of traits and behaviors to evaluate who might pose a risk, and focusing on one or two traits alone - like religion or race - is bound to fail. A good profile examines dozens of separate traits, and also constantly changes as the enemy adapts to the profiling.

Another pet peeve that I haven't mentioned yet, but that grinds my ass anyway: we don't test our systems properly, and when we do test them we don't use the information properly. When a screener lets a test package slip through, they're berated, at best, and often outright fired. Testing is considered a "Gotcha!" exercise, with punishment the only possible outcome. It ought to be viewed as an ongoing part of training; when someone misses a test package, the need to be sent aside for further training, and the reason for their failure propagated back through the entire system and training process in order to detect and eliminate systemic, rather than just individual failures.

Of course, the fact that most TSA screeners glance down the hall longingly at the airport McDonalds and would consider a job there to be a step up in life points out another serious problem.

64 Gang of One  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:10:59pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

And the willingness to pay people what they're worth.

Absolutely correct, SanFran.

65 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #25 RealismRox

I think people are genuinely uncomfortable with strangers looking at their naked bodies. However, this recent incident demonstrates the need for this type of scanning, and people just have to live with loss of privacy.

But no one is looking at your naked body, they are looking at the outline of the shape of your skin. If someone drew a chalk outline of you that exactly reproduced your shape is that also violating your privacy?

It isn't like they actually see you, they see a colored blob that has your shape, personally the idea doesn't bother me at all.

66 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:11:15pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock


I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.


racist? why would you say that? if someone buys a one way ticket on an international flight with no checked baggage and we "profile" that person as a suspicious passenger, where is the racism?

there are certain groups and certain actions that might fall under suspicion. if we don't use that knowledge in profiling, we are not doing our jobs. political correctness can be deadly.

67 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:11:24pm

re: #56 windsagio

man, people really like profiling on here >>

Thanos is dead on with this subject. Looking to any single method as a magic pill is foolish, and profiling of any sort is spoofable, with effort.

also, 'conditionals!' I know they're hard to understand ;)

I've not read one post where anyone considered profiling the only method we can use...you are simplifying where nobody else has

68 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:11:42pm

re: #58 Obdicut

Ah, you must be one of those guys who are psychic over TCP/IP.

Classy, too.

/

Just tryin to make a point about the people reading my mind.

69 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:13:38pm

re: #43 mardukhai

The Israelis have the most secure system -- I wonder, can it be made to fit American needs? Can it be made to work here? And will we put up with it?

they use profiling effectively, do they not? However, they also have far fewer flights to oversee.

70 RealismRox  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:14:18pm

re: #65 ausador

Some of the photographs I've seen of the body scanners show more than a chalk outline. It can see through underwear and you can see the shape of private parts. Personally, if this is the price we have to pay for security, I don't mind. Just other people will have a problem with it, I'm thinking about women who wear burkas, or others who are very concerned with modesty aren't happy about the scanners.

71 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:14:29pm

re: #57 HelloDare

Yes, we should do both. I don't understand how you got the impression that I meant we should do otherwise.

actually I was supporting the second part of your statement

72 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:14:29pm

re: #24 windsagio

wait, suppository bombs?

Pass the pipe around, man!

Obamas statement left me with the idea that he's being overly harsh on our system because he has to be seen doing something after this kind of an attempt. I'm not saying its perfect, but I don't see how anything has changed from when we were talking about htis yesterday.

Well, in all honesty, the American Public would rather see him being a little over harsh than to say that everything worked great. We, rightly or wrongly expect perfection, and so any perceived misstep is going to be hammered pretty hard. Nothing can be done to change that unless we have a wholesale change in the mindset of America.

73 mardukhai  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:14:34pm

re: #61 Gordon Marock

I also do not care who sees my manhood, but only because it is so impressive.

Why don't you think I care who sees mine?

: - ))

74 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:14:55pm

re: #43 mardukhai

The Israelis have the most secure system -- I wonder, can it be made to fit American needs? Can it be made to work here? And will we put up with it?

There's not much to put up with. I travel El Al and the check in is no slower than US airlines for the most part.

75 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:15:14pm

Reading about the Israeli method, there are certainly things we can learn from them, but also a number of things that aren't legal or practical in the us (Explicitly racial profiling, asking every person who wants to enter the US why and checking their story). One of the hard parts is that methods that are great in a small nation are unduly burdonsome in a nation the size of the US.

76 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:15:27pm

re: #40 Gordon Marock

Unfortunately, the most effective form of airline security is profiling and further scrutiny of passengers that fit a profile. This will never be implemented due to 'civil rights' objections. Technology will never keep us safe at the cost we are currently willing to spend on airline security.

Really? What airline security experts say profiling is the most efficient tool in air security? Former Homeland Security dude Michael Chertoff said the exact opposite this afternoon on NPR and it has nothing to do with Civil Rights.

77 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:15:38pm

re: #56 windsagio

man, people really like profiling on here >>

Thanos is dead on with this subject. Looking to any single method as a magic pill is foolish, and profiling of any sort is spoofable, with effort.

also, 'conditionals!' I know they're hard to understand ;)


Law Enforcement and the Military use profiling every day. It is one of many tools used by them, but far from the only one. It is unfortunate that it has become subject to vilification, as it can be very useful, and at times highly efficient and effective. The mistake is to think that a profile alone will be effective, or is proof of guilt or innocence, or even necessarily a proper predictor of behavior. But, it can help you increase your percentage chance of effectiveness.

78 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:18:04pm
79 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:18:34pm

re: #59 Gus 802

I agree. I think at this point They're just doing anything they can to create failure for Obama. If that means increased terrorism, a collapsing economy, environmental destruction or wildly increasing healthcare costs they don't mind. I've seriously come to the conclusion that Republicans don't have the best interest of the country in mind anymore.

80 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:18:41pm

re: #77 psyop

fine, I'll address it one more time.

The general theme of the thread is 'what should we do to improve security'. A number of people in a row started the 'profiling! PROFILING! PROFILING!!!' chant, and I was pointing out the other side; there are legitimate reasons why profiling has to be used carefully.

81 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:18:50pm

re: #78 Gordon Marock

Victimhood makes for a sour song.

82 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:19:21pm

re: #70 RealismRox

I think that it was escapedhillbilly who suggested letting the market dictate by allowing some airlines who wish to use the xray machine to do so, and others who don't, wouldn't. I think the screener would be more offended than I as I passed through the device, ticket for the x-ray flight in hand.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:19:45pm

re: #75 windsagio

Reading about the Israeli method, there are certainly things we can learn from them, but also a number of things that aren't legal or practical in the us (Explicitly racial profiling, asking every person who wants to enter the US why and checking their story). One of the hard parts is that methods that are great in a small nation are unduly burdonsome in a nation the size of the US.

Every time I've entered another country, or re-entered the States, I've been asked why. I recall one time when my husband and I returned from Britain, I was exhausted, and he was answering all the questions while the beagle sniffed our bags over. The officer turned to me and asked a couple of questions, I believe just to hear that my accent matched my official story, and check my reaction. We do these things, and they are not that hard.

84 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:20:26pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

GOd, you're right. I'm a moron.

I just got up, so I'll blame that ;)

85 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:20:35pm

How about this. Go ahead and unionize the TSA, that's fine. But we must implement the following. A separate division of the FAA/TSA/DHS that is solely tasked with beating the TSA. Every day they should send undercover officers through airports with concealed items on their persons and/or in their bags. They should actively try to beat the TSA. If you are person handling the scanner and you get beaten once, you get a two week unpaid suspension. You get beaten twice, you're fired. That simple. No if's, and's, or but's.

Hire smart former security people to do the testing. Hire kids right out of college who are creative to come up with schemes to beat the system. But TEST TEST TEST.

86 HelloDare  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:20:59pm

A sobering look at airport security.

...And because I have a fair amount of experience reporting on terrorists, and because terrorist groups produce large quantities of branded knickknacks, I’ve amassed an inspiring collection of al-Qaeda T-shirts, Islamic Jihad flags, Hezbollah videotapes, and inflatable Yasir Arafat dolls (really). All these things I’ve carried with me through airports across the country. I’ve also carried, at various times: pocketknives, matches from hotels in Beirut and Peshawar, dust masks, lengths of rope, cigarette lighters, nail clippers, eight-ounce tubes of toothpaste (in my front pocket), bottles of Fiji Water (which is foreign), and, of course, box cutters. I was selected for secondary screening four times—out of dozens of passages through security checkpoints—during this extended experiment. At one screening, I was relieved of a pair of nail clippers; during another, a can of shaving cream.

During one secondary inspection, at O’Hare International Airport in Chicago, I was wearing under my shirt a spectacular, only-in-America device called a “Beerbelly,” a neoprene sling that holds a polyurethane bladder and drinking tube. The Beerbelly, designed originally to sneak alcohol—up to 80 ounces—into football games, can quite obviously be used to sneak up to 80 ounces of liquid through airport security. (The company that manufactures the Beerbelly also makes something called a “Winerack,” a bra that holds up to 25 ounces of booze and is recommended, according to the company’s Web site, for PTA meetings.) My Beerbelly, which fit comfortably over my beer belly, contained two cans’ worth of Bud Light at the time of the inspection. It went undetected. The eight-ounce bottle of water in my carry-on bag, however, was seized by the federal government.

On another occasion, at LaGuardia, in New York, the transportation-security officer in charge of my secondary screening emptied my carry-on bag of nearly everything it contained, including a yellow, three-foot-by-four-foot Hezbollah flag, purchased at a Hezbollah gift shop in south Lebanon. The flag features, as its charming main image, an upraised fist clutching an AK-47 automatic rifle. Atop the rifle is a line of Arabic writing that reads Then surely the party of God are they who will be triumphant. The officer took the flag and spread it out on the inspection table. She finished her inspection, gave me back my flag, and told me I could go. I said, “That’s a Hezbollah flag.” She said, “Uh-huh...

In Minneapolis, I littered my carry-on with many of my prohibited items, and also an Osama bin Laden, Hero of Islam T-shirt, which often gets a rise out of people who see it. This day, however, would feature a different sort of experiment, designed to prove not only that the TSA often cannot find anything on you or in your carry-on, but that it has no actual idea who you are, despite the government’s effort to build a comprehensive “no-fly” list. A no-fly list would be a good idea if it worked; Bruce Schnei­er’s homemade boarding passes were about to prove that it doesn’t.

87 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:21:23pm

re: #77 psyop

Law Enforcement and the Military use profiling every day. It is one of many tools used by them, but far from the only one. It is unfortunate that it has become subject to vilification, as it can be very useful, and at times highly efficient and effective. The mistake is to think that a profile alone will be effective, or is proof of guilt or innocence, or even necessarily a proper predictor of behavior. But, it can help you increase your percentage chance of effectiveness.

People are always looking for the silver bullet solutions. Profiling is one of those oft mentioned silver bullets. It is as you mention only a tool that can lead to greater scrutiny. In the matter of Flight 253 the external immutable characteristics of the suspect does not fall into the typical profiling of terrorists -- at least not until now. Even if he was subjected to profiling and greater scrutiny if his passport and Visa were valid and he had not been fully padded down or even strip searched they still would not have found the explosive device.

88 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:21:36pm

re: #85 Cineaste

And PS: this is how the Israeli's do it...

89 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:21:42pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Random Idiocy - that is what I'm calling it these days.

For many years the likes of Limbaugh have claimed that "liberals" and Democrats just wanted power. Yet now we see the shoe on the other foot - the GOP simply wants Obama to fail for the sake of taking back the reins of government for themselves.

90 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:21:52pm

re: #70 RealismRox

Yes, it reproduces a colored blob on a monitor that has your exact shape in great detail, that is the point. The one person who sees that image never actually sees you in person though. He/she is in a separate booth, looking at image after image after image all day long. Don't you think that after the first few hundred they would cease being interested in what people might look like and just be looking for anomalies?

91 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:21:56pm

re: #56 windsagio

man, people really like profiling on here >>

Thanos is dead on with this subject. Looking to any single method as a magic pill is foolish, and profiling of any sort is spoofable, with effort.

also, 'conditionals!' I know they're hard to understand ;)

Yes; scanners are also spoofable. It's preferable to employ the full spectrum of intelligence and surveillance techniques available as part of an integrated system.

Scanners have another unpleasant difficulty that I detailed downstairs: if your aim as a terrorist is to disrupt air travel, right now you've got a huge, juicy knot of humanity all jammed up at the security checkpoint, fiddling with their shoes and arguing with TSA agents over their shampoo, and you can walk right into the middle of them without passing through any security at all, even carrying a really enormous package with you that won't be questioned until it's far too late and you've managed to shut down the entire airport - and many, many other airports across the country, thanks directly to the chokepoint created.

You really need to begin detecting the bad guys as far from the airport as possible - the preferred distance would be wherever they apply for their visa. Failing that, there ought to be a series of perimeters that extend well outside the airport and become more dense as you approach the gates.

A single solution that bunches passengers up in one location simply becomes a target.

92 captdiggs  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #75 windsagio

Reading about the Israeli method, there are certainly things we can learn from them, but also a number of things that aren't legal or practical in the us (Explicitly racial profiling, asking every person who wants to enter the US why and checking their story). One of the hard parts is that methods that are great in a small nation are unduly burdonsome in a nation the size of the US.

Then again, it's all about saving lives. The system in the US is incredibly burdensome as it is. Profiling may be an unpleasant side, but the Israelis know that there is a huge difference in the risk factors between a 25 year old male from Egypt and an 80 year old Grandmother from Brooklyn.
Our system of treating that 80 year old grandmother the same as a 20 year old from Libya is incredibly inefficient and simply an extreme version of political correctness.

93 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:22:52pm

re: #91 SixDegrees

I think we're agreeing ;)

Of course thats because its common sense!!!

94 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:22:58pm
95 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:23:41pm

re: #80 windsagio

fine, I'll address it one more time.

The general theme of the thread is 'what should we do to improve security'. A number of people in a row started the 'profiling! PROFILING! PROFILING!!!' chant, and I was pointing out the other side; there are legitimate reasons why profiling has to be used carefully.

I would absolutely agree with using profiling carefully. If you had said that earlier and I did not see it, I apologize. It had seemed to me that you were implying that there is no place for profiling, which I would vehemently disagree with.

96 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:23:48pm

re: #94 Gordon Marock

Dude, you're losing it.

97 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:24:54pm

re: #96 Gus 802

Dude, you're losing it.

That's the present progressive tense, if I remember English grammar correctly.

98 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:25:31pm

re: #69 _RememberTonyC

they use profiling effectively, do they not? However, they also have far fewer flights to oversee.

That's the problem: the Israeli system is very good, but it doesn't scale well to a system the size of the United States. There are, however, points that can be adapted and learned from. Most important of all, they take an integrated view of security, and evaluate every technique that comes their way for usefulness. And they realize that there is no single solution, that all these techniques have their own strengths and their own weaknesses that must be identified.

99 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:25:38pm

re: #97 freetoken

That's the present progressive tense, if I remember English grammar correctly.

Perhaps I should have said, "you've lost it?" /

100 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:26:31pm

re: #92 captdiggs

It would be interesting to have some real civil rights law experts go over their system and come back with an analysis.

re: #95 psyop

Heh, I'm a little heavy-handed in my posting when I first wake up, so I probably didn't say it outright.

re: #97 freetoken

OT: English grammar is AWFUL; they should never have tried to apply latin language rules to a Germanic language. /rant off

101 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:26:37pm

smelling flouncy in here

102 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:26:45pm

re: #87 Gus 802

People are always looking for the silver bullet solutions. Profiling is one of those oft mentioned silver bullets. It is as you mention only a tool that can lead to greater scrutiny. In the matter of Flight 253 the external immutable characteristics of the suspect does not fall into the typical profiling of terrorists -- at least not until now. Even if he was subjected to profiling and greater scrutiny if his passport and Visa were valid and he had not been fully padded down or even strip searched they still would not have found the explosive device.

Yes, indeed. Another thing about the methodology involved in profiling is that profiles are almost never static (at least for very long) and must constantly be updated and refined.

103 RealismRox  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:26:47pm

re: #90 ausador

Yes, it reproduces a colored blob on a monitor that has your exact shape in great detail, that is the point. The one person who sees that image never actually sees you in person though. He/she is in a separate booth, looking at image after image after image all day long. Don't you think that after the first few hundred they would cease being interested in what people might look like and just be looking for anomalies?

Yes, I agree they. Just try explaining that to my mother.

104 zeir  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:27:07pm

What is profiling? Is overhauling the no-fly list and moving over move denizens of the "Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment" (it even feels stupid to write it!) profiling? Is checking irregularities in the itinerary or deportment of the individual profiling? Is giving every person of Middle Eastern origin an extra once over profiling? When does profiling begin, formally??

105 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:28:08pm

re: #96 Gus 802

Dude, you're losing it.

Yeah, kinda. The big problem is that we live in a free country and no amount of security measures will prevent all attacks. So, we are at wat with terrorists, but there does not seem to be any good solution to the problem in the short or long term.

P.S.- Terrorists do not operate airlines.

106 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:29:12pm

re: #104 zeir

What is profiling? Is overhauling the no-fly list and moving over move denizens of the "Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment" (it even feels stupid to write it!) profiling?

no

Is checking irregularities in the itinerary or deportment of the individual profiling?

nope

Is giving every person of Middle Eastern origin an extra once over profiling?

bingo! You're choosing people based on race, ethnicity or other immutable aspect engendered to them at birth.

107 psyop  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:30:08pm

re: #100 windsagio


re: #95 psyop

Heh, I'm a little heavy-handed in my posting when I first wake up, so I probably didn't say it outright.

No problem at all. I find I am less diplomatic pre-caffeine, and try to keep that in mind when discussing or debating with people. Usually with minimal success.

108 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:30:13pm

Did the British profile Northern Irish during the troubles?

109 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:30:17pm

re: #104 zeir

effectively, it starts when you're in the airport and the security agent is looking at/talking to you. Or at least thats what people usually mean.

re: #105 Gordon Marock

The solution is in the process. We have to continually change and update our methods, and they'll surely do the same. Unfortunately, until we can read minds (now THERES a civil rights violation), we'll never be at the homeland security finish line.

110 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:31:09pm

Wow, the universe must be imploding, Ausador is updinging me!

;)

111 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:31:37pm

People seem to think that the El Al security system is based on a simple kind of racial profiling, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. All passengers are interviewed before boarding, and asked a lengthy series of questions designed to make a potential terrorist nervous. I know -- I've been to Israel and I've gone through this process myself.

Israel and El Al are only able to use the systems they use because it's a very small airline, with only about two dozen airplanes in the fleet. And the number of passengers who pass through Israeli security is vastly less than the United States has to deal with.

The techniques used by El Al are not transferrable to the US; there's a massive difference in scale, and it's not possible to do in-depth interviews with every passenger.

112 zeir  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:31:47pm

So, in Israel, they profile. Palestinians generally get an extra little chat at the farthest ring of the circle. It is low key but serious.

113 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:32:39pm

re: #102 psyop

Yes, indeed. Another thing about the methodology involved in profiling is that profiles are almost never static (at least for very long) and must constantly be updated and refined.

Correct. For example, a couple of weeks ago there was a press release - I don't know where it originated - warning of an imminent terrorist attack being launched out of Nigeria. Ideally, this information would have been incorporated into screening procedures, and someone arriving in Amsterdam with a connecting flight to Detroit, whose name was already on a British no-fly list because of his links to Islamic jihadist groups, who had boarded without a passport after purchasing a one-way ticket to the US with cash, and whose parents had filed several reports with the US embassy and other foreign agencies warning that their son might be engaged in a terrorist plot...all of that would have come together, one would hope, to focus scrutiny on sonny boy in particular before he ever got on his flight.

Or even before he was granted a visa, but that's somewhat outside of the whole "profiling" thing.

114 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:33:07pm

re: #105 Gordon Marock

Yeah, kinda. The big problem is that we live in a free country and no amount of security measures will prevent all attacks. So, we are at wat with terrorists, but there does not seem to be any good solution to the problem in the short or long term.

P.S.- Terrorists do not operate airlines.

First, it's a good idea to remain calm. No, it will probably be impossible to attain 100% security but there are tools and methods in place that can lower the potential for attacks in the long term. In Flight 253s case we weren't that far off the mark and with a few adjustments his attempt could have been avoided. I also consider the passenger response part of the solution and one that was taken on this flight in that many were vigilant and responded appropriately.

115 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:33:51pm

re: #111 Charles

People seem to think that the El Al security system is based on a simple kind of racial profiling, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. All passengers are interviewed before boarding, and asked a lengthy series of questions designed to make a potential terrorist nervous. I know -- I've been to Israel and I've gone through this process myself.

Israel and El Al are only able to use the systems they use because it's a very small airline, with only about two dozen airplanes in the fleet. And the number of passengers who pass through Israeli security is vastly less than the United States has to deal with.

The techniques used by El Al are not transferrable to the US; there's a massive difference in scale, and it's not possible to do in-depth interviews with every passenger.

If you think TSA is a monstrous bureaucracy now...

I would wager there are also other things in place, like metal detectors, other scanners, and a prescreen of tickets for no fly listees etc. and

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:35:19pm

re: #92 captdiggs

Then again, it's all about saving lives. The system in the US is incredibly burdensome as it is. Profiling may be an unpleasant side, but the Israelis know that there is a huge difference in the risk factors between a 25 year old male from Egypt and an 80 year old Grandmother from Brooklyn.
Our system of treating that 80 year old grandmother the same as a 20 year old from Libya is incredibly inefficient and simply an extreme version of political correctness.

Can someone give me a link to our present rules? It has been my anecdotal experience that young men of possible Middle Eastern origin actually do draw attention and additional focus. What rules actually mandate that we treat poor grandma the same as Mahmoud the Scary Lybian? I really want to see what we're working with, so I can tell if I think it needs adjustment.

117 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:35:25pm

Well, I will be flying to Manhattan in January, so I hope they get this security thing fixed by next week.

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:35:52pm

re: #111 Charles

People forget about scale on most of these things.

How many people fly intra-nationally and internationally within the US? I'm guessing the number is vast.

119 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:37:25pm

re: #115 Thanos

I think it comes down to the idea that ideas from Israel are a useful resource, but hardly a real solution.

Also, I know this doesn't make anyone comfortable, but I think we have to come to the conclusion that in the US we'll always have a (number pulled out of ass) 5% failure rate in our airport security. The combination of scale, permeable Canadian/Mexican borders (and they can't be closed, too much empty space along them), and minimum-wage TSA agents combines for inevitable fallibility.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #108 prairiefire

Did the British profile Northern Irish during the troubles?

Th British profiled all Irish during the Troubles, and Irish Americans, and anyone coming out of Ireland. And they were pure assholes about it.

121 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:37:55pm

re: #86 HelloDare

Hizb'allah has a gift shop?

122 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:38:06pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

What I heard on the radio this morning, was Loretta Snachez saying the TSA nominee is being held up, over fears the TSA would be allowed to unionize. I agree he is well qualified to the job.

123 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:38:07pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the situtation is 'we deny we do it but we totally do it anyways!' with racial profiling in the US. They just occasionally pull out someone who doesn't fit too, so it looks fair.

124 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:39:01pm

part of the problem with security is that several flights originate overseas we don't have control over those airports. Security itself usually the balls into the question of cost versus risk. It's a cold calculus and for some countries the answer has to be inexpensive. That's why we need improved means within the US but also inexpensive but effective means to detect bombs in foreign airports. I'm still in favor of the gauntlet of dogs or rats as a solution for airports like Nigeria etc.

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:39:01pm

Not sure of the accuracy of this, as I found it linked on a comedy site, but...

The True Odds of Airborne Terror

126 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:39:11pm

re: #122 Floral Giraffe

What I heard on the radio this morning, was Loretta Snachez saying the TSA nominee is being held up, over fears the TSA would be allowed to unionize. I agree he is well qualified to the job.

Unionize TSA???

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:40:07pm

re: #123 windsagio

I think the situtation is 'we deny we do it but we totally do it anyways!' with racial profiling in the US. They just occasionally pull out someone who doesn't fit too, so it looks fair.

I wonder, because I hear this constant complaint from people that tiny Anglo grandmas are being oppressed by this, and honestly, I have never felt I was subject to any inappropriate scrutiny at any time while flying.

Of course, I'm neither tiny nor a grandma.

128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:40:13pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

Baier said on an earlier thread


"I have relatives of Sephardi descent and I can tell you travel is a nightmare already. How many flights have you missed because you have a dark complexion? I have a cousin that goes to the airport 3 hours early because he's missed so many flights. was on earlier said that his relative who has the "look", gives himself a lot of extra time because he expects to be screened with more caution."

I have to admit it would suck.

129 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:40:29pm

/pimf "usually falls into a question of" .... grrr still working out some kinks with dragon speak...

130 Gordon Marock  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:40:39pm

Happy New Year to everyone. Go home, hug your kids (pets, guns, whatever) and don't argue with your wife/husband (significant other), for tomorrow you may die. Peace and Goodwill to all.

GM

131 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:41:25pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Baier said on an earlier thread


I have to admit it would suck.

So does the hole in a suddenly de-pressurized cabin at 30,000 feet.

132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:41:51pm

re: #125 Slumbering Behemoth

If that's accurate, thanks. I had just asked a question that that answered.

133 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:41:54pm

re: #104 zeir

What is profiling? Is overhauling the no-fly list and moving over move denizens of the "Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment" (it even feels stupid to write it!) profiling? Is checking irregularities in the itinerary or deportment of the individual profiling? Is giving every person of Middle Eastern origin an extra once over profiling? When does profiling begin, formally??

As you might expect, security agencies frown upon releasing much detail about their particular profiling methods. But the idea is simple: there are certain behaviors and attributes that a large percentage of terrorists display, but that the general public does not. There are typically a few dozen such attributes: a range of ages; sex; country of origin; race and others. Many are behavioral: do they make eye contact when questions; do they seem nervous; do they appear to be drugged; do they appear to be giving rehearsed answers. And so on. No one attribute or behavior is generally sufficient to trigger suspicion, but it might be cause to probe a bit harder - increasingly confrontational questioning can be used to elicit further responses to see if the subject responds to such challenges in a "normal" way. Altogether, profiling is a multidimensional analysis of a person, with a locus where overlap indicates a high probability of terrorist intent.

If you get a "high score," you may be subjected to more intense questioning, as already noted, or may be sent down the line that gets physical bag inspection, or perhaps even a pat down. Maybe worse. Good profiling systems are layered.

They are also, like all security systems, imperfect. Random selection is also important to guard against false negatives slipping through, and against enemy adaptation to existing profiles.

134 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:42:08pm

re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist

oh, they don't do Grandma, they pull aside those scummy college kids or guys with tatoos that make every black security-guard heart beat with rage.

//

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:42:23pm

re: #131 MandyManners

Yup.

136 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:43:56pm

re: #131 MandyManners

appeal to fear?

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:44:12pm

re: #133 SixDegrees

As you might expect, security agencies frown upon releasing much detail about their particular profiling methods. But the idea is simple: there are certain behaviors and attributes that a large percentage of terrorists display, but that the general public does not. There are typically a few dozen such attributes: a range of ages; sex; country of origin; race and others. Many are behavioral: do they make eye contact when questions; do they seem nervous; do they appear to be drugged; do they appear to be giving rehearsed answers. And so on. No one attribute or behavior is generally sufficient to trigger suspicion, but it might be cause to probe a bit harder - increasingly confrontational questioning can be used to elicit further responses to see if the subject responds to such challenges in a "normal" way. Altogether, profiling is a multidimensional analysis of a person, with a locus where overlap indicates a high probability of terrorist intent.

If you get a "high score," you may be subjected to more intense questioning, as already noted, or may be sent down the line that gets physical bag inspection, or perhaps even a pat down. Maybe worse. Good profiling systems are layered.

They are also, like all security systems, imperfect. Random selection is also important to guard against false negatives slipping through, and against enemy adaptation to existing profiles.

So where do we get this idea that somehow 'political correctness' is tying our hands? That's the part I don't get. People keep saying "Oh, if only we could PROFILE." What does that look like, and how is it different from what's being done now?

138 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:44:25pm

re: #125 Slumbering Behemoth

Not sure of the accuracy of this, as I found it linked on a comedy site, but...

The True Odds of Airborne Terror

Taken directly from fivethirtyeight.com I'm guessing. Which is an interesting site for those people who don't mind peeking at a bunch of numbers and stats dealing mostly with politics.

Nate Silver is fairly left, but he makes it a point to not fudge the numbers, and IIRC was responsible for taking down Strategic Vision and their apparently faked polling data.

139 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:45:19pm
140 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:45:48pm

re: #138 bloodstar

Nate Silver is a Geek God.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:46:15pm

re: #134 windsagio

oh, they don't do Grandma, they pull aside those scummy college kids or guys with tatoos that make every black security-guard heart beat with rage.

//

Actually, the person who gets searched and her bags looked at, and etc. more than anyone I know is a Chinese-American woman who flies regularly on business. We have never figured this out, but for some reason, the sight of her standing there in a business suit and sensible heels, with her little rolly-suitcase, seems to fill all TSA people with a passionate desire to look at all her toiletries and talk to her in a private little room about her business trip.

142 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:46:57pm

re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

People forget about scale on most of these things.

How many people fly intra-nationally and internationally within the US? I'm guessing the number is vast.

Following 9/11, ALL air traffic in the US was grounded for several days. I was astounded to learn that there were over 50,000 flights (yes, that's fifty thousand) per day in the US. That number if probably higher today.

A lot of these are small, private flights or cargo flights. But the number of commercial passenger flights is utterly enormous.

In fact, that's why the terrorists are so intent on crippling the system. It is crucial to the economy.

143 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:47:07pm

re: #140 prairiefire

Nate Silver is a Geek God.

Ah, darn it. I thought you said Greek God. I was going to have a lot of fun with that.

144 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:47:35pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Kinky!

(no disrespect meant to your friend)

145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:49:22pm

re: #139 MikeySDCA

Sounds like truth to me. I don't even hear a scintilla of Bush in it. I wasn't looking for it though.

146 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:04pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

So where do we get this idea that somehow 'political correctness' is tying our hands? That's the part I don't get. People keep saying "Oh, if only we could PROFILE." What does that look like, and how is it different from what's being done now?

just call it something else and nobody will know the difference...this is America

147 keithgabryelski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:17pm

re: #111 Charles


The techniques used by El Al are not transferable to the US; there's a massive difference in scale, and it's not possible to do in-depth interviews with every passenger.

From my experience, El Al doesn't even scale to Israeli size crowds.

I think the things that were most shocking:

1) you must stand near your bag as it is being compressed and decompressed (if it blows you should be the first victim)
2) packages get spit out of the compression machine into a padded wall and onto a rubber mat (jarring my case of wine as I let out a little scream).
3) the interview, itself, was not polite -- and not meant to be.

All in all -- the experience left me with a cold feeling of required means, and the warm feeling that these guys were serious about protecting their planes -- and there was no chance there would be a terrorist attack on my flight.

This isn't the feeling I get on international flights to any other country -- and especially the crap we put up with walking through a domestic flight.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:22pm

re: #144 windsagio

Kinky!

(no disrespect meant to your friend)

No, no, we've made all the jokes there are to make. She's just resigned herself to it by now.

149 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:28pm

re: #126 MandyManners

That's what she was giving as the excuse for blocking a very well qualified candidate.

150 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:45pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

So where do we get this idea that somehow 'political correctness' is tying our hands? That's the part I don't get. People keep saying "Oh, if only we could PROFILE." What does that look like, and how is it different from what's being done now?

The problem stems from the (sadly) not unreasonable fear of racial profiling. Here, race alone, or nearly alone, is used to select targets for further investigation - or, as has happened in the US many times, further harassment. That whole "driving while black" thing isn't a myth, unfortunately. So people hear "profiling" - a much more complex and comprehensive process - and immediately jump to "racial profiling" and it's odious past. Or they focus on the racial element often used as a single dimension in a comprehensive profile and arrive at the same incorrect conclusion.

151 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:50:59pm

re: #110 Cineaste

Wow, the universe must be imploding, Ausador is updinging me!

;)

I upding when a comment deserves one, it doesn't matter who wrote it.

152 HelloDare  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:51:05pm

re: #121 MandyManners

Hizb'allah has a gift shop?

This from a cheery post on Slate on Oct. 16, 2001
[Link: www.slate.com...]

After 45 minutes or so we finished our tour, grabbed lunch at the busy Khiam cafe, and headed for the Hezbollah gift shop—a must for any visitor. It was a long, narrow room, stocked with two wide aisles of Hezbollah keepsakes. They had yellow Hezbollah flags in every size and Hezbollah clothing—T-shirts, sweatshirts, baseball caps. Along one wall were display cases of various stickers, posters, lapel pins, and key chains, and pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini, spiritual leader Musa al-Sadr, and the current Hezbollah secretary-general, Nasrallah. A few photos even caught these men cutting loose with smiles. A table near the back of the room featured video tapes of successful Hezbollah attacks on Israeli troops.

The children's section (yikes!) featured coloring and comic books, one of which I had to bring home. The back cover illustrated a little boy running with flowers in his hand, birds and butterflies in the background, his foot is about to detonate a landmine decorated with the Star of David. Inside was a child's poem about Al-Quds (Jerusalem) with an illustration, as if drawn by a child, that depicted a little boy throwing a rock at a soldier who is wearing a helmet emblazoned with the Star of David. The soldier has a large, bandaged hook-nose, and he's wincing in fear.

I had been in Jerusalem before coming to Lebanon, so as I approached the bearded man behind the cash register to pay for my souvenirs I accidentally blurted out, "Kamo zeh oleh" in Hebrew. I froze as the man scrunched his eyebrows together and said, "Shoo???!"—a rude form of "What?" in Arabic. I recovered, and in a louder voice asked in Arabic how much I owed, marveling at how the Islamic movement had grown so far that it had to finally merge with capitalism. I put my money on the table, making a reluctant contribution to Hezbollah.

My friend grabbed my arm and pulled me from the counter, making me promise not to open my mouth until our Hezbollah holiday was over.

153 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:51:16pm

re: #131 MandyManners

So does the hole in a suddenly de-pressurized cabin at 30,000 feet.

A big hole doesn't always mean the plane is doomed to crash.

Planes are a little harder to bring down than people realize... so long as you have power and controls of wings and flaps (and enough of a plane to remain in one piece.

Flight 243 might be an exception, but considering the extent of the damage (it lost the top half of the cabin) and it still landed safely, a simple hole isn't likely to bring a plane down.

Now mind you, I'd rather be on a plane that didn't suddenly sprout holes, I like cabin pressure too much.

154 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:51:30pm

re: #41 windsagio

re: #40 Gordon Marock

I'm not sure 'Nigerian' is in the usual profile anyways. Or 'Irish Girlfriend', for that matter.

Profiling is just another one of those 'false sense of security' deals.

Also often racist.

Young Muslim male (OK that in and of itself is not sufficient)
BUT
No visa
No passport
No luggage
One-way ticket
Paid in cash
Over the fuel tank

Should have set off a bunch of alarms.

155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:52:34pm

re: #154 Alouette

Should have set off a bunch of alarms.

Oh. Only EVERY alarm.

156 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:52:52pm

re: #142 SixDegrees

I think the truth is that its lose-lose, at least until those petrodollars run out.re: #146 albusteve

heh thats already being done. Also, unsurprisingly, its being done poorly.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:53:43pm

re: #154 Alouette

Young Muslim male (OK that in and of itself is not sufficient)
BUT
No visa
No passport
No luggage
One-way ticket
Paid in cash
Over the fuel tank

Should have set off a bunch of alarms.

Absolutely should have, and I would like to know why it did not. I'm just more inclined to blame 'screw-up' than 'bleeding hearts'.

158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:53:47pm

re: #152 HelloDare

Hezbollah holiday?

Next, to Chernobyl!

159 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:53:52pm

Yippee! Snowing in Portland. Just what I needed, another distraction from my bookkeeping!

160 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:54:24pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Oh god, you made me look out the window. Damn it all to hell!

161 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:54:29pm

Gotta run. Early New Year's dinner at a new Japanese steakhouse.

BBL.

162 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:54:37pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

My brother had a bombshell blonde neighbor who got pulled over regularly by the police. And let off. My cousin is black, a business suit wearing salesman. He gets pulled over regularly. And not let off.

163 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:54:53pm

re: #111 Charles

People seem to think that the El Al security system is based on a simple kind of racial profiling, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. All passengers are interviewed before boarding, and asked a lengthy series of questions designed to make a potential terrorist nervous. I know -- I've been to Israel and I've gone through this process myself.

Israel and El Al are only able to use the systems they use because it's a very small airline, with only about two dozen airplanes in the fleet. And the number of passengers who pass through Israeli security is vastly less than the United States has to deal with.

The techniques used by El Al are not transferrable to the US; there's a massive difference in scale, and it's not possible to do in-depth interviews with every passenger.

At Ben Gurion Airport it's not just El Al, it is all the airlines. I haven't flown on El Al since 1974, they are just way too expensive.

164 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:55:03pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Yippee! Snowing in Portland. Just what I needed, another distraction from my bookkeeping!

yeah, adjusting two sets of books takes awhile!

jus kidding

165 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:56:44pm

re: #162 Olsonist

My brother had a bombshell blonde neighbor who got pulled over regularly by the police. And let off. My cousin is black, a business suit wearing salesman. He gets pulled over regularly. And not let off.

See my #150. There are reasonable fears over racial profiling, although a real profiling process only uses race as one small component among dozens of others. This hasn't always been the case, though, and it's reasonable to be concerned about it and to take precautions against it when implementing a comprehensive system.

166 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:56:46pm

re: #162 Olsonist

Its risky territory, but I think you guys have brought up a good point re:'profiling'. Lets look at how it works out with the police, who are substantially better trained and better paid than your average TSA agent.

Hint: Not all that well.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:56:53pm

re: #162 Olsonist

My brother had a bombshell blonde neighbor who got pulled over regularly by the police. And let off. My cousin is black, a business suit wearing salesman. He gets pulled over regularly. And not let off.

Oh, believe me, this does not surprise me. And I was raised by cops.

168 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:57:27pm

re: #162 Olsonist

My brother had a bombshell blonde neighbor who got pulled over regularly by the police. And let off. My cousin is black, a business suit wearing salesman. He gets pulled over regularly. And not let off.

why should he be 'let off'?...you break a traffic law in ABQ you get a ticket, period, they are very strict out here

169 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:57:37pm

re: #147 keithgabryelski


1) you must stand near your bag as it is being compressed and decompressed (if it blows you should be the first victim)
2) packages get spit out of the compression machine into a padded wall and onto a rubber mat (jarring my case of wine as I let out a little scream).
3) the interview, itself, was not polite -- and not meant to be.

Weird- I've flown El Al a lot and never dealt with the flying bags from a compression machine myself and the interviews have always been curt but polite. You're saying they were rude to you?

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:58:27pm

re: #168 albusteve

why should he be 'let off'?...you break a traffic law in ABQ you get a ticket, period, they are very strict out here

I think you miss the point. Why should SHE be let off?

171 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:58:56pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

or why were EITHER of them pulled over in the first place?

172 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:59:22pm

re: #166 windsagio

Its risky territory, but I think you guys have brought up a good point re:'profiling'. Lets look at how it works out with the police, who are substantially better trained and better paid than your average TSA agent.

Hint: Not all that well.

good grief..what a flimsy argument....finding potential bad guys at airports has little to do with so called racial profiling...is that so hard to understand?

173 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 2:59:24pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, believe me, this does not surprise me. And I was raised by cops.

It doesn't surprise me but my cousin is an awesome guy. A couple of hundred a year in tickets, then there's the insurance and the humiliation. I didn't believe in this driving while black until I heard it from him.

174 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:00:33pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you miss the point. Why should SHE be let off?

same difference...but she should expect a ticket, just like the black guy

175 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:00:58pm

re: #152 HelloDare

I wouldn't have bought a thing!

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:02:04pm

re: #172 albusteve

good grief..what a flimsy argument...finding potential bad guys at airports has little to do with so called racial profiling...is that so hard to understand?

It should. My comments, though:

1. After this Christmas Day event, I keep hearing people, even here, claiming that we need to 'profile', but are unable to because of political correctness. I want to know how.

2. People keep bitching that 'obviously' innnocent people are being bothered by security issues. There are no obviously innocent people in airport security.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:02:19pm

re: #174 albusteve

same difference...but she should expect a ticket, just like the black guy

Bingo!

178 Linden Arden  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:02:20pm

re: #9 Charles

Jim DeMint is a Dominionist, and a perfect symbol of everything that's wrong with the GOP today.

The very same US Senator who wants to "destroy the Obama presidency" also is holding up his TSA appointment.

Coincidence?

Or hoping for a crippling terrorist attack?

I can't read DeMint's mind but I don't like what he is doing at all - as an American who wants to avoid another 9/11.

179 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:02:20pm

re: #168 albusteve

They pulled her over because she's hot and they wanted to chat her up. They let her off because they didn't want to give her a ticket. It happened again and again.

They pulled him over because he was black. It also happened again and again.

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:02:24pm

re: #162 Olsonist

My brother had a bombshell blonde neighbor who got pulled over regularly by the police. And let off. My cousin is black, a business suit wearing salesman. He gets pulled over regularly. And not let off.

She was pulled over to be gawked at, with no violation?

He was pulled over for DWB, with no violation?

Either of those bite!

181 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:03:33pm

re: #153 bloodstar

A big hole doesn't always mean the plane is doomed to crash.

Planes are a little harder to bring down than people realize... so long as you have power and controls of wings and flaps (and enough of a plane to remain in one piece.

Flight 243 might be an exception, but considering the extent of the damage (it lost the top half of the cabin) and it still landed safely, a simple hole isn't likely to bring a plane down.

Now mind you, I'd rather be on a plane that didn't suddenly sprout holes, I like cabin pressure too much.

A hole from a bomb is not the same as what happened on that flight.

As part of the design of the 737, stress may be alleviated by controlled area breakaway zones. The intent was to provide controlled depressurization that would maintain the integrity of the fuselage structure.

182 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:04:54pm

re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Also, I know from work. If you have a disabled person in the car with you, you will almost NEVER get a ticket, unless they have absolutely no choice but to give you one (ie, you hit something).

183 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:05:33pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

It should. My comments, though:

1. After this Christmas Day event, I keep hearing people, even here, claiming that we need to 'profile', but are unable to because of political correctness. I want to know how.

2. People keep bitching that 'obviously' innnocent people are being bothered by security issues. There are no obviously innocent people in airport security.

right, and when I suggest profiling, which I have since 9/11, I'm not even sure what that includes...the Israelis seem to have a system that's working for them but like a different team, playing the same game, of course there would be big differences...the jist of my BS is that we should set it up and try, refine it, change it, do whatever we can to make flying safer and less cumbersome

184 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:06:04pm

re: #174 albusteve

same difference...but she should expect a ticket, just like the black guy

I bet she has nicer legs.

185 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:06:12pm

And I thought it was unfair when a neighbor was pulled over by a cop who then let him off because they're poker buddies.

;)

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:06:48pm

re: #184 MandyManners

I bet she has nicer legs.

That might be a matter of taste.

/

187 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:06:51pm

re: #179 Olsonist

They pulled her over because she's hot and they wanted to chat her up. They let her off because they didn't want to give her a ticket. It happened again and again.

They pulled him over because he was black. It also happened again and again.

is his car not proper?...is he breaking a traffic law?....getting pulled over is not the same as getting a ticket....do the cops lie?

188 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:07:48pm

re: #181 MandyManners

A hole from a bomb is not the same as what happened on that flight.

As part of the design of the 737, stress may be alleviated by controlled area breakaway zones. The intent was to provide controlled depressurization that would maintain the integrity of the fuselage structure.

Agreed, I'm quoting wikipedia here so All due caveats apply, but: "Paul Withey, an aviation expert, described an explosive decompression inside an aircraft cabin as similar to the explosion of a 500 pound (225 kilogram) bomb inside the cabin"

and I know, I'm wayyyy off topic here so I'm hushing up now. :)

189 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:08:28pm

re: #188 bloodstar

Agreed, I'm quoting wikipedia here so All due caveats apply, but: "Paul Withey, an aviation expert, described an explosive decompression inside an aircraft cabin as similar to the explosion of a 500 pound (225 kilogram) bomb inside the cabin"

and I know, I'm wayyy off topic here so I'm hushing up now. :)

Don't forget where this asshole's seat was located.

190 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:08:42pm

re: #187 albusteve

is his car not proper?...is he breaking a traffic law?...getting pulled over is not the same as getting a ticket...do the cops lie?

You've never heard the phrase DWB?

191 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:08:47pm

re: #183 albusteve

I think whats being gotten at is that we are profiling, just not in a very effective way... and for various legal (and political) reasons we have to deny we're doing it. The problem is that human nature makes on-the-spot profiling more about the psychology of the agent than about real risk factors.

re: #187 albusteve

Of course they do! They even admit it sometimes ("we're allowed to lie in interviews...")

192 Izzyboy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:09:23pm

Napolitano did say "everything worked well", is that just a matter of the right hand not talking to the left or is she just a moron?

193 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:11:05pm

re: #190 bloodstar

You've never heard the phrase DWB?

you can't be ticketed for that...if he has been lied to he should resist, not bend over and continuously pay phony tickets...so far I've not heard an explanation for all these tickets

194 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:12:46pm

re: #187 albusteve

Is his car not proper? His car is fine. I've driven in it. Non-descript.
Is he breaking a traffic law? I strongly doubt it.
Do the cops lie? There are good cops and bad cops. They are human.

195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:13:57pm

re: #193 albusteve

White guy here. Drive 70,000 miles per year. Pulled over a lot. Have received more tickets than I've been let off.

I blame me.

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:14:00pm

re: #194 Olsonist

Is his car not proper? His car is fine. I've driven in it. Non-descript.
Is he breaking a traffic law? I strongly doubt it.
Do the cops lie? There are good cops and bad cops. They are human.

NOT that I am okay with his being targeted for the color of his skin, but what do the tickets say? They have to say something like "20 miles over the speed limit" or "lane change without signaling."

197 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:14:18pm

re: #193 albusteve

He's getting tickets because he's black. If he goes to court then the case is his word against the policeman's and then he gets to pay the ticket.

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:14:42pm

re: #196 EmmmieG

avatar up-ding!

199 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:14:44pm

re: #195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

White guy here. Drive 70,000 miles per year. Pulled over a lot. Have received more tickets than I've been let off.

I blame me.

Show some leg, FBV. Show some leg.

200 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:15:15pm

re: #193 albusteve

a cop can always find SOMETHING if they want to (especially if they follow for a while), and unfortunately, in most of the nation, you've really got a huge uphill struggle to try to get anything overturned if you are black.

The second part of that 'never talk to the police' video has a fair amount that'd answer your questions about that.

201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:15:28pm

re: #199 MandyManners

Show some leg, FBV. Show some leg.

That's it!

202 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:15:37pm

re: #196 EmmmieG

I haven't seen the tickets but I have driven with him. He's a normal 45 year old conservative driver. But he's black.

203 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:17:49pm

re: #194 Olsonist

Is his car not proper? His car is fine. I've driven in it. Non-descript.
Is he breaking a traffic law? I strongly doubt it.
Do the cops lie? There are good cops and bad cops. They are human.

that does not explain all the tickets and humiliation...he should hire a lawyer and file a discrimination lawsuit, or keep a record and take it to a judge or something...sitting back and getting hammered because of his race is inexcusable

204 HelloDare  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:18:20pm

Whether or not dropping the Poland-Czech missile shield was a wise military decision, Obama seems to have gotten nothing for it.


Vladimir Putin threatens Barack Obama's nuclear stockpile cuts
President Barack Obama's drive for the US and Russia to agree cuts in nuclear weapons is under threat after Vladimir Putin insisted the US abandons its missile shield before a final deal can be reached.

The Russian prime minister threatened to scupper one of Mr Obama's key foreign policy successes following his initial agreement with President Dmitry Medvedev at the G20 summit in London in April.

In a notable toughening of rhetoric, Mr Putin insisted his country would develop new "offensive" weapons systems before it considered cutting nuclear warheads. He said the new weapons were necessary to prevent America's leaders from thinking they can "do whatever they want".

The Obama administration's missile defence plans were blocking any possible reduction in Russia's nuclear weapons stockpile, he insisted.

"The problem is that our American partners are building an anti-missile shield and we are not building one," he said in Vladivostok. "By building such an umbrella over themselves, our partners could feel themselves fully secure and will do whatever they want, which upsets the balance."

One of Mr Obama's signature foreign policy initiatives has been to declare that he wants "a world without nuclear weapons" and he has made plain his hope for rapprochement with Moscow. He said in April: "As a nuclear power - as the only nuclear power to have used a nuclear weapon - the United States has a moral responsibility to act."

In July, he declared his intention to "reset" troubled relations between the United States and Russia.

Two months later, he dismayed US allies in Europe by ditching Bush-era plans to set up a missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic, which were previously behind the Iron Curtain.

Moscow had been bitterly opposed to those plans and at first welcomed Washington's decision.

But the olive branch has yielded little if anything in return. Instead, Moscow has used Mr Obama's intention to instead build a "smarter, stronger and swifter" system involving both sea-based and land-based mobile interceptors as a justification for continued tensions.

205 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:18:56pm

re: #204 HelloDare

you should repost that in the open thread, it'll get it moving maybe ;)

206 Olsonist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:27:08pm

re: #203 albusteve

It does suck but the burden is completely on him at every level. But Scott's a good guy and I love him. He has learned how to handle himself when he gets pulled over and he manages to get out of a few of them.

This DWB thing used to be worse. Cops are getting educated about it now. And there is more diversity in police forces which helps as well.

207 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 3:36:26pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

It should. My comments, though:

1. After this Christmas Day event, I keep hearing people, even here, claiming that we need to 'profile', but are unable to because of political correctness. I want to know how.

2. People keep bitching that 'obviously' innnocent people are being bothered by security issues. There are no obviously innocent people in airport security.

1. I believe the Israeli system uses people who are highly trained in scanning the crowd for certain behavior markers, in addition to other things. That is one way to do it. Another way to do it: Assign points to passengers based on certain criteria - age, gender, nation of origin, etc. Higher points for certain categories. The higher the point total for YOU as a passenger, the more likely you would be subject to search procedures. For instance, a child under the age of 6 would have ZERO points and therefore not be subject to the same security measures that, say, a Saudi male aged 25 would be subject to.

2. you are absolutely correct.

208 Sloppy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 4:02:33pm

I am an old man, and if I play my cards right, all this flying stuff is individually nonapplicable, because I will never have to get on a plane again. Yay!

209 Achilles Tang  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 4:23:39pm

Evening all. I've been driving all day and what did I find on the radio but a stand-in for Rush (who perhaps is playing golf while a crisis is brewing/). I heard a long, long, long dissertation on the "isolated extremist" phrase.

The truth is however, that listening to it in this isolated context I thought that was a pretty dumbass description by Obama and made him sound like a wimp.

In the broader context here I will say that it was a poor choice of words and not a speech that warrants awards; but I don't think he sees it as a isolated issue. Hopefully he will again disappoint his politically correct base and get back to reality.

I do remind myself that the Predator missile strikes are coming with increased frequency, not less, and that gives me some comfort.

On a related issue, I can't keep from wondering if our latest little terrorist is going to find his voice pitch is rising in the near future.

210 keithgabryelski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 4:23:41pm

re: #169 Cineaste

Weird- I've flown El Al a lot and never dealt with the flying bags from a compression machine myself and the interviews have always been curt but polite. You're saying they were rude to you?

Rude is probably too tough a word. The woman asked a lot of questions, repeated some of them, then explained people are actively trying to hijack planes and this was no joke, and asked questions again.

I've traveled quite a bit in my life, mostly internationally for work (london, paris, boston each leg once a week for 2+ years) and I've never complained about the questions asked (save once when I was force to answer the question "did anyone else pack your bags for you" -- when I had no bags -- I swear, "I have no bags" was not an acceptable answer to that question, for some damn reason).

For whatever reason THIS interviewer didn't like my answers -- maybe there was a language or cultural barrier, although she certainly spoke English well.

In any case, my point:

El Al is serious about protecting their planes and it is obvious at every point in the process -- I didn't feel like the process was inordinate even though it took a while.

That is not my impression about the magical thinking that makes up air travel security in the united states (plus it takes a long time).

This is all coming from a guy that remembers, just a couple decades ago, dropping a friend off at the airport just minutes before his plane was to take off and upon realizing he left a carry-on bag in my car, I parked the car (in the white loading/unloading zone) ran into the airport, through security to the plane, ran on the plane and handed the bag to him in his seat, then left the plane.

211 SixDegrees  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 4:59:49pm

re: #166 windsagio

Its risky territory, but I think you guys have brought up a good point re:'profiling'. Lets look at how it works out with the police, who are substantially better trained and better paid than your average TSA agent.

Hint: Not all that well.

Actually, although there have been incidents of abuse, they have been by far the exception rather than the rule, and are rare. I'm not aware of any case where there has been systemic abuse found within a department.

It is also employed by security departments in most countries.

The abuses are certainly not something anyone would want to see repeated. But that means they are worth guarding against, not that the practice should be abandoned entirely.

212 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:27:59pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

That's my sister-in-law. They seem to never understand why she wants to fly to Iowa.

213 jayzee  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:54:13pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, the person who gets searched and her bags looked at, and etc. more than anyone I know is a Chinese-American woman who flies regularly on business. We have never figured this out, but for some reason, the sight of her standing there in a business suit and sensible heels, with her little rolly-suitcase, seems to fill all TSA people with a passionate desire to look at all her toiletries and talk to her in a private little room about her business trip.

Women traveling alone are often tagged by security.

214 Cineaste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:26:04pm

re: #210 keithgabryelski

Rude is probably too tough a word. The woman asked a lot of questions, repeated some of them, then explained people are actively trying to hijack planes and this was no joke, and asked questions again.

I've traveled quite a bit in my life, mostly internationally for work (london, paris, boston each leg once a week for 2+ years) and I've never complained about the questions asked (save once when I was force to answer the question "did anyone else pack your bags for you" -- when I had no bags -- I swear, "I have no bags" was not an acceptable answer to that question, for some damn reason).

For whatever reason THIS interviewer didn't like my answers -- maybe there was a language or cultural barrier, although she certainly spoke English well.

That's exactly their technique. They ask questions multiple times - and usually you are asked the same questions by a couple different people. They are not being rude, they are listening to your answers, seeing how you respond and then comparing notes. The answers themselves are largely irrelevant. It's how you answer and how you behave that they're studying.

215 Mournie  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 8:49:13am

Does anyone REALLy believe that DeMint can hold up a confirmation for the TSA??? The only thing he insists on, is a recorded vote by the Senate, He wants a hearing. Truth be told, Obama does not want anymore hearings, because up to now, his candidates have been sorely vetted. Tax problems, marxist ties are the standard of the day. It was only last fall that the candidate for TSA was even nominated. NOMINATED!! There is suppose to be a hearing..that is our process.

DeMint cannot hold up the approval process, it is actually Reid who needs to schedule the voting and has not yet done so.

So why are they blaming DeMint? Is it like them blaming Republicans for holding up healthcare even though they don’t need senate Republicans to vote? Evidently, they want this nominee approved without a vote or debate.


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