California Science Institute Sued for Canceling Creationist Film

Science • Views: 7,673

The California Science Center in Los Angeles is being sued by a right wing group called the American Freedom Alliance (that claims to be “non-partisan”), for canceling a “documentary” film that features anti-evolution propaganda from the creationist “think tank” known as the Discovery Institute.

L.A.’s California Science Center will start the new year defending itself in court for canceling a documentary film attacking Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

A lawsuit alleges that the state-owned center improperly bowed to pressure from the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from USC professors and others. It contends that the center violated both the 1st Amendment and a contract to rent the museum’s Imax Theater when it canceled the screening of “Darwin’s Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian Fossil Record.”

The suit was filed in Los Angeles Superior Court by the American Freedom Alliance, an L.A.-based group described by senior fellow Avi Davis as a nonprofit, nonpartisan “think tank and activist network promoting Western values and ideals.”

The AFA seeks punitive damages and compensation for financial losses, as well as a declaration from the court that the center violated the Constitution and cannot refuse the group the right to rent its facilities for future events.

But digging into the article a bit further reveals the reason for the cancellation: the Discovery Institute playing their same old dishonest games, giving themselves a false aura of respectability by misrepresenting the event as being sponsored by the Smithsonian. And it’s not the first time they’ve tried to glom onto the Smithsonian’s reputation.

On Oct. 5, the science center, one of 165 national affiliates of the Smithsonian that enjoy special access to loans from its massive collection, received an alert — and a complaint — from Harold Closter, director of the Smithsonian’s affiliates program. Closter gave the science center the head’s-up about a news release that had been issued not by the AFA but by the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank that promotes intelligent design and whose researchers are featured in “Darwin’s Dilemma.” In an e-mail that’s an exhibit in the lawsuit, he wrote that the news release wrongly implied that the California Science Center is “a West Coast branch of the Smithsonian, and that the film showing is a Smithsonian event.” Closter asked science center officials to correct the error but did not mention canceling the screening.

The Smithsonian has a history with the Discovery Institute: In an embarrassing episode in 2005, it approved Discovery’s rental of an auditorium at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History for a screening of a different film promoting intelligent design. That led to an outcry from the scientific community. But, having signed a contract, the Smithsonian allowed the screening to go forward, trying to distance itself from the event by returning the $16,000 rental fee and emphasizing that the Smithsonian did not endorse the screening.

The California Science Center, in contrast, canceled the AFA’s screening on Oct. 6, saying that the AFA had violated its rental agreement.

Science center President Jeffrey Rudolph said in a statement entered in the case file that the news release violated a standard contractual requirement: All promotional materials for outside users’ events must be submitted to the museum before they can be made public.

The lawsuit filed by the American Freedom Alliance is a study in creationist paranoia, claiming there’s a conspiracy of “Darwinists” out to get them, and denying that the contract violation (which they apparently do not dispute) was the reason for the cancellation:

The AFA’s suit, filed Oct. 14, contends that the contract issue was a “false pretext” and that pressure from the Smithsonian and the academic community was the real reason for canceling the film. It alleges that Rudolph first met with museum board members, then “contrived a justification” — the unauthorized news release — for preventing the screening. The AFA says that it should not have been held responsible for a release that it didn’t issue itself.

The AFA alleges that in failing to be honest and open about its reasons for negating the contract, the science center committed a contract fraud that should now expose it to punitive damages on top of the $75,000 or more that Davis says the AFA lost by hastily having to transfer the $20 per ticket screening to a smaller space at USC’s Davidson Conference Center, where the pro-Darwin Imax film could not be shown properly.

Rudolph declined to comment last week, saying in a prepared statement that the screening “was canceled because of issues related to the contract.”

The Smithsonian is not a defendant in the suit. The huge, Washington, D.C. research and museum institution is federally chartered and receives part of its funding from the federal government. The suit contends, however, that the Smithsonian was part of “a broad network of Darwin advocates [that] … jointly conspired” with the California Science Center to stop its film screening. A spokeswoman said the Smithsonian had no comment.

UPDATE at 12/29/09 5:55:14 pm:

The movie, by the way, is an extended exercise in quote mining, crappy animation, and creationist talking points about the so-called “Cambrian Explosion.” Here’s the trailer, which starts with an infamously out-of-context quote from Stephen Jay Gould that creationists love to repeat even though it’s been demonstrated over and over to be highly misleading, and not at all representative of Gould’s true opinion:

Youtube Video

More on this bogus “documentary” here; it appears that the filmmakers misled scientists into appearing in the film:

Have creationists tricked scientists yet again?
Cambrian Confusion: Some answers, more questions

Jump to bottom

250 comments
1 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:06:21pm
misrepresenting the event as being sponsored by the Smithsonian.

Would that right there be enough to cancel the CSI's obligation?

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:08:38pm

You know it is time for the science community to start counter suing. Some of the scientists who have repeatedly asked to have their names taken off of false petitions and lists need to file a nice juicy class actions suit for defamation of character.

I almost wish they put me on such a list so I could do that. If you hit these fuckers for a few million a name, they go down.

3 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:09:55pm

Apparently, the only group unable to see the dishonesty of the DI is the DI itself and their flock.

4 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:10:38pm

re: #3 b_sharp

Apparently, the only group unable to see the dishonesty of the DI is the DI itself and their flock.

Their flock includes almost every top GOP politician.

5 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:13:14pm

I am wondering how one does a documentary on a fairy tale in the first place?
Would this be like doing a documentary on Narnia?

6 Bear  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:16:34pm

As I recall way back in the 1970s, The National Association of Geology Teachers alerted that some were harassing some Calif geology teachers about the teaching of the Geological Time Scale. No I do not recall just what the problem was or the outcome.

7 jaunte  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:16:42pm

Here they go again.

The AFA's Davis said lied that his group has no position on Darwinism and intelligent design but is concerned that debate is being stifled by the scientific establishment.[Link: www.latimes.com...]
8 Racer X  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:18:34pm
9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:20:18pm

re: #4 Charles

Their flock includes almost every top GOP politician.

And I was just writing on the other thread that educated people have good reason to despise the modern GOP.

10 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:21:23pm

re: #5 CapeCoddah

I am wondering how one does a documentary on a fairy tale in the first place?
Would this be like doing a documentary on Narnia?

The movie is an extended exercise in quote mining, crappy animation, and creationist talking points about the so-called "Cambrian Explosion." Here's the trailer, which starts with an infamously out-of-context quote from Stephen Jay Gould that creationists love to repeat even though it's been demonstrated over and over to be highly misleading, and not at all representative of Gould's true opinion:

More on this bogus "documentary" here:

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

11 Ojoe  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:21:38pm

Faith itself has evolved.

12 Ojoe  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:23:22pm

BBQ'd trilobites, Mmmmm !

(yes a derailment)

BBL

13 SilentAlfa  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:24:15pm

damn the Scientists and their silly 'facts' and 'extensive research' and 'reality' keeping us down!

14 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:28:34pm

The filmmaker, Illustra Media, is a front company for the Discovery Institute, by the way.

15 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:29:29pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

And I was just writing on the other thread that educated people have good reason to despise the modern GOP.

no, wrong, you clearly stated..."educated people hate the GOP"...as if you know everyone in the GOP and their political motives...or that you seem to represent educated people in general....it was a wildly stupid thing to say....insecure and elitist, and you are massively both

16 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:30:05pm
17 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:30:21pm

On a related note, Chuck Norris is doing the full court press for these people:

[Link: www.bibleinschools.net...]

I'm wondering how public this movement will become in the coming election season.

18 jaunte  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:30:34pm

Howard Ahmanson and the Discovery Institute could easily fund a Creation Museum complete with Imax theater in Los Angeles, just to show this film and others like it, but that wouldn't serve the intended purpose. This is an attempt to prop up sophistry to the level of evolutionary biology.
The fact that they tried to suggest the event was sponsored by the Smithsonian says a lot about their cargo-cult concept of scientific respectability.

19 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:31:46pm

re: #15 albusteve

no, wrong, you clearly stated..."educated people hate the GOP"...as if you know everyone in the GOP and their political motives...or that you seem to represent educated people in general...it was a wildly stupid thing to say...insecure and elitist, and you are massively both

touche.

20 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:31:53pm

If the California Science Center needs an expert witness on the characters and tactics of the Discovery Institute, I think I know someone who is qualified...

21 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:32:06pm

re: #18 jaunte

Exactly.

The fascinating irony about this movement is that they are employing a tactic that evolution uses in real life... mimicry.

22 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:32:45pm

re: #15 albusteve

no, wrong, you clearly stated..."educated people hate the GOP"...as if you know everyone in the GOP and their political motives...or that you seem to represent educated people in general...it was a wildly stupid thing to say...insecure and elitist, and you are massively both

He also said the GOP counts on Americans having short memories. The Democrats have more to gain from short memories. Lincoln, McGovern, Dixiecrats, Robert Byrd etc.

23 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:33:43pm

re: #15 albusteve

no, wrong, you clearly stated..."educated people hate the GOP"...as if you know everyone in the GOP and their political motives...or that you seem to represent educated people in general...it was a wildly stupid thing to say...insecure and elitist, and you are massively both

Well you are half right. I should be more clear...

Any sane and educated person despises the disgusting circus of hatred, fear mongering and medievalist evil that the modern GOP has become.

Sane and educated do abhor things like racism, sexism and homophobia. They detest having science destroyed.

As to being elitist, yes I am. I am smarter than you too. I also get laid much more frequently.

24 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:34:53pm

Once again the DI is trying to lie for God.

25 Summer Seale  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:36:08pm

Hi everyone! Did ya all miss me? I betcha did!

Yup! I'm back, but just for a moment while I go on my next tour to campaign for keeping God in the classroom!

Ya know, it's such a shame about a buncha lefty scientists keeping us regular folks from talking about our beliefs, isn't it? Those scientists! Why, they just think they know everything, don't they?

I betcha they do!

It's all that arrogant French stuff they study in school, like Day-cart, and Roo-so...names that don't mean much to the average American family! Of course I know those names because I've read all their books and magazines.

But the other thing I've read and that I wanna talk about is The Bible. Did ya know that The Bible says we didn't fall down from trees a couple of hundred years ago? I betcha did, if you read it like I do! We Americans were created by God and there was no "evolving" going on...unlike what those Frenchie scientists say, or whatever that Darwin guy was!

You know, I betcha they didn't even notice that it's called Evilootion! They actually missed that part of the name?? And they think they're smart....right?

Well, I don't, and I betcha most Americans don't. But we're gonna have to work harder and lower taxes so that our nation can be blessed again and we can get rid of all those brainy, nerdy, stupid guys who think that we're monkeys or something!

Heck, I bet if we all pull together, as Americans, we can bless this beautiful nation of ours again and make everyone wish they were us! The way they did back when Jesus was around!

Anyway, that's all just for now. Gotta run and help out with teaching scientists how it is!

26 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:36:28pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you are half right. I should be more clear...

Any sane and educated person despises the disgusting circus of hatred, fear mongering and medievalist evil that the modern GOP has become.

Sane and educated do abhor things like racism, sexism and homophobia. They detest having science destroyed.

As to being elitist, yes I am. I am smarter than you too. I also get laid much more frequently.

wow a legend in his own mind...

27 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:37:15pm

re: #17 freetoken

I'm wondering how public this movement will become in the coming election season.

There's been a collapse of Republican leadership and lots of groups are competing to fill the vacuum. Anything can happen. There's a part of me that still suspects there is responsible leadership that will appear at some point even though it they are not in the spotlight now. We'll see.

28 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:38:58pm

Snowing outside and I'm experimenting with proofing bread in the oven instead of my usual improvised proofing box. The kitchen is too cold for the bread to rise on it's own. These old houses are drafty.

29 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:40:18pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

There is quite a jostling going on in the GOP, to see whose "hoops" are going to be promoted, through which any successful candidate will have to jump.

Given the importance to what was formerly known as the "dixiecrats" to the GOP strategy, I am suspecting that prospective GOP candidates will have to jump through the "Bible Curriculum" hoop.

Local GOP candidates out here on the west coast (well, outside of Orange county) probably won't have to worry, but in the bulk of middle America I really don't see how the GOP will dig itself out from under the theocratic rock.

30 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:40:35pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you are half right. I should be more clear...

Any sane and educated person despises the disgusting circus of hatred, fear mongering and medievalist evil that the modern GOP has become.

Sane and educated do abhor things like racism, sexism and homophobia. They detest having science destroyed.

As to being elitist, yes I am. I am smarter than you too. I also get laid much more frequently.

the fact you are smarter than me is not the point...you were stupid enough to compare me to North Koreans in that they, and I, are bloodthirty goons who have no regard for human rights and personal freedoms and I should join my fellow travelers there...until you get off your arrogant fat blog ass and apologize for such an outrageous accusation I have no regard for you or your windy posts...and even then I doubt you will ever have any cred with me....you are a bigtime snob and the above post proves it...your net problems have been pointed out to you many times in the past...if you were as smart as you claim you would pay some attention, but you have your own conceited thing

31 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:41:07pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Snowing outside and I'm experimenting with proofing bread in the oven instead of my usual improvised proofing box. The kitchen is too cold for the bread to rise on it's own. These old houses are drafty.

Well. Let us know how your solution works, so I can post it to the blog.

My house is old and drafty too, tho the new windows made a really really big difference.

32 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:41:15pm

Knock off the bickering, please.

33 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:41:56pm

re: #32 Charles

Knock off the bickering, please.

roger

34 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:42:39pm

re: #29 freetoken

You're probably right.

35 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:42:50pm

American Freedom Alliance

Board of Directors
Barak Lurie
Heidi N. Nietert
Shawn Steel
Dr. Robert Hamilton
David Horwatt

Staff
Avi Davis - Executive Director and Senior Fellow
Rueben Gordon - Assistant Director
Sandy Krueger - Executive Assistant
Irma Widjojo - Secretarial Assistant
Elisa Vandernoot- researcher and Western Word Editor

Fellows
Avi Davis
Robert Spencer
Christian Whiton

Robert must be part of their "Islamic penetration of Europe" group:

The Islamic penetration of Europe: View the content and video recordings of AFA' s famous 2007 international conference The Collapse of Europe? held at Pepperdine University, the Identity Crisis International Conference held in Rome , the AFA International Fellowship Program, the European Freedom Alliance Website and more.

36 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:43:57pm

Robert really gets around...

37 jaunte  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:44:51pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

He'll join just about any Facebook group that asks, apparently.

38 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:45:00pm

re: #35 Sharmuta

American Freedom Alliance

Classic. But we're supposed to believe this is a "non-partisan" group.

39 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:45:35pm

re: #31 reine.de.tout

Well. Let us know how your solution works, so I can post it to the blog.

My house is old and drafty too, tho the new windows made a really really big difference.

I've been thinking a doing a bread post. I have some ideas and a few more resources to check out.

I still have my original 100 year old windows. I love the wavy glass. If I was going to stay here I would have them replaced but I still have plans to move sometime soon so I figure I'll let the new owners do it.

40 jaunte  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:47:17pm

re: #35 Sharmuta

Here's an earlier film showing for the group:

Expelled
Sunday, February 15, 2009 7:30 PM
at the home of Barak and Stacy Lurie
[Link: community.intellicontact.com...]
41 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:48:49pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I've been thinking a doing a bread post. I have some ideas and a few more resources to check out.

I still have my original 100 year old windows. I love the wavy glass. If I was going to stay here I would have them replaced but I still have plans to move sometime soon so I figure I'll let the new owners do it.

wavy glass is priceless, bubbles and all...I used to harvest that stuff to replace the glass in antique what nots, bakers hutches and the like

42 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:49:04pm

American Freedom Alliance issues press releases through Christian Newswire.

43 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:49:11pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I've been thinking a doing a bread post. I have some ideas and a few more resources to check out.

I still have my original 100 year old windows. I love the wavy glass. If I was going to stay here I would have them replaced but I still have plans to move sometime soon so I figure I'll let the new owners do it.

Replace the windows; keep the old wavy glass panes and have doors made for your cupboards or something. RECYCLE!

44 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:49:59pm

re: #38 Charles

Classic. But we're supposed to believe this is a "non-partisan" group.

Here's Robert on their site again at an event from last year.

I wonder if he knows his group is in league with another group that's in league with Islamic creationists. Kinda funny.

45 jaunte  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:50:56pm

re: #38 Charles

Classic. But we're supposed to believe this is a "non-partisan" group.

More 'non-partisan' editorializing from senior AFA fellow Avi Davis:
CHARLES DARWIN'S UNHAPPY LEGACY
(*Godwin warning)
[Link: community.intellicontact.com...]

46 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:51:19pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you are half right. I should be more clear...

Any sane and educated person despises the disgusting circus of hatred, fear mongering and medievalist evil that the modern GOP has become.

Sane and educated do abhor things like racism, sexism and homophobia. They detest having science destroyed.

As to being elitist, yes I am. I am smarter than you too. I also get laid much more frequently.

Yeah, I hear those physicist groupies are teh bomb!
//

47 SteveMcG  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:53:25pm

re: #5 CapeCoddah

Didn't you ever see "This is Spinal Tap"?

48 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:54:10pm

re: #46 rwdflynavy

Yeah, I hear those physicist groupies are teh bomb!
//

LOL, if you only knew :)

49 Linden Arden  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:55:26pm

Charles - sorry to thread jack but I am aghast at the FBI special agent Senator Jim Demint is trying to block as TSA head -- Eroll Southers


McClain said Southers brought more weaponry to the department's tactical team, increased the focus on intelligence, and had the team train with security forces from Israel's El Al Airlines.

"Some of the things that the Israelis do may just shock the consciousness of the U.S., but they are second to none," McClain said. "He did step up the game quite a bit."

link to source

50 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 5:59:34pm

Here is the About Us from the AFA's European Freedom Alliance

Co-Sponsored By:

Middle East Forum
Christian Solidarity International
Council For Democracy And Tolerance
FAES:Foundation For Analysis And Social Studies

I'm not picking up any religious supremacist tendencies, are any of you? ///

51 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:01:42pm

News & Articles

Original Air Date: 10/7/2009 9:00 AM
"What Does the Riqfa Bary Case Tell About Islam in America Today?"

This week’s Western Word Internet Radio show features a discussion on the subject "What Does the Riqfa Bary Case Tell About Islam in America Today?" with author Robert Spencer, blogger Pamela Geller and author Nonie Darwish. The show will be hosted by popular political commentator, author and conservative comedian Evan Sayet.

52 Linden Arden  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:01:51pm

By the way (to anyone concerned about TSA) that Mr. Southers is eminently qualified and Senator DeMint is blocking for purely partisan reasons.

53 MandyManners  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:01:51pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

Here's Robert on their site again at an event from last year.

I wonder if he knows his group is in league with another group that's in league with Islamic creationists. Kinda funny.

Kinda'? It gave me a big, old belly laugh.

54 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:03:03pm

re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL, if you only knew :)

Have you ever seen any of the girl scientists in the Nukker group? Smoking hot scientists...I never saw that coming...
We can only hope that they are future ex-wives..*wink*

55 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:07:05pm

re: #54 HoosierHoops

Have you ever seen any of the girl scientists in the Nukker group? Smoking hot scientists...I never saw that coming...
We can only hope that they are future ex-wives..*wink*

Well, I am not going to comment to dirtily... I will however say that smart women tend to get really bored with dumb men.

56 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:07:57pm

re: #53 MandyManners

Kinda'? It gave me a big, old belly laugh.

It's such a cluster-f*ck of special interests, all you can do is laugh.

Although- I never get tired of busting Robert's chops. Cheers!

57 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:08:47pm

re: #51 Sharmuta

News & Articles

Yep. It's an extreme religious right group, trying to picture itself as "non-partisan."

And it's not surprising at all to find groups like this tied to the Discovery Institute.

58 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:10:50pm

re: #57 Charles

I noticed Mr. Bawer at their European site. I hope he's aware who this group is.

59 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:13:58pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Snowing outside and I'm experimenting with proofing bread in the oven instead of my usual improvised proofing box. The kitchen is too cold for the bread to rise on it's own. These old houses are drafty.

I use a large plastic container with cups filled with boiling water before placing the box over the dough. I replace the water every 15 minutes. The problem I've had with proofing bread in the oven is I like the oven to be good an hot before I throw the bread in and if I've used it to proof , then the bread might loose it's shape before the oven is hot enough for it to go in.

But yeah, winter sucks for bread baking in old houses.

60 Racer X  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:13:59pm
61 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:14:13pm

re: #55 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I am not going to comment to dirtily... I will however say that smart women tend to get really bored with dumb men.

Huh..How about that...Worked pretty good for me so far....
I have been blessed to be with a very smart woman....No one would ever say I am a smart man jenny.. But I know love...A woman will never get bored with love....

62 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:15:48pm
On October 27, 2009 Rifqa Bary was returned to Ohio and temporarily placed in the custody of Franklin County Children Services.[13] The public agency will be monitoring her internet and phone use.[14]

Margaret Shirk filed a case-management plan December 1, 2009 stating that Rifqa and her family needed to have face-to-face talks about their understanding of Christianity and Islam as one step toward reunification.[15] Franklin County Children Services hopes to reunite the family before August 10, 2010, when Rifqa turns 18.[15]

On December 22, 2009, a magistrate of the Franklin county juvenile court denied the parents' request for forced mediation and set the date for the dependency hearing for the end of January.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Looks like sanity has indeed prevailed - Ms. Bary is not being forced to submit to parental control over her protestatations of fear of abuse, and has at the same time been rescued from the religious cult.

63 recusancy  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:16:08pm

OT: Anti gay marriage zealot Karl Rove is getting his second divorce doing his best to uphold the great institution of marriage.

64 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:16:09pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Huh..How about that...Worked pretty good for me so far...
I have been blessed to be with a very smart woman...No one would ever say I am a smart man jenny.. But I know love...A woman will never get bored with love...

Well God bless you for that :)

65 Racer X  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:22:46pm

Two blondes went deep into the frozen woods searching for a Christmas tree.

After hours of shivering in subzero temperatures and several close encounters with hungry wolves, one blonde turned to the other and said,

"I'm chopping down the next tree I see. I don't care whether it's decorated or not!"

66 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:25:15pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote

Well God bless you for that :)

LOL I'm in the middle of a two week 'Holiday vacation' And just been having a blast..I've had a good Christmas.. Seen a hundred crappy movies..Filled up the beer frig only twice and loved blogging here at 4am to check out some lizards I'll talk to once a year...
/Not one deletion in 8 days of Holiday..I'm damn proud of that.. More like relieved...LOL
Really it has been so much fun...

67 darthstar  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:28:20pm

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just wanted to say I got to enjoy first tracks this morning. I love ski season...

68 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:28:59pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

And many people who buy old houses really value the wavy glass.
I know I do!
Besides, if you can find an excellent carpenter, he can work wonders on your windows. Mine aren't drafty anymore!

69 darthstar  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:29:53pm

Back on topic now...

pssst...hey Creationists. The bible isn't science.

70 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:30:25pm

re: #67 darthstar

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just wanted to say I got to enjoy first tracks this morning. I love ski season...

I have never ski'd in my life...

71 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:30:34pm

Since this is a science thread of sorts:

Scientists documented evidence that the Arctic Ocean and Nordic Seas were too warm to support summer sea ice during the mid-Pliocene warm period (3.3 to 3 million years ago). This period is characterized by warm temperatures similar to those projected for the end of this century, and is used as an analog to understand future conditions.

The U.S. Geological Survey found that summer sea-surface temperatures in the Arctic were between 10 to 18°C (50 to 64°F) during the mid-Pliocene, while current temperatures are around or below 0°C (32°F).

[...]

Loss of sea ice could have varied and extensive consequences, such as contributions to continued Arctic warming, accelerated coastal erosion due to increased wave activity, impacts to large predators (polar bears and seals) that depend on sea ice cover, intensified mid-latitude storm tracks and increased winter precipitation in western and southern Europe, and less rainfall in the American west. [...]

72 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:31:02pm

re: #70 HoosierHoops

I have never ski'd in my life...

Me either, HH.
I'd break my leg or put my eye out or something . ..

73 Bear  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:31:03pm

re: #65 Racer X

The only blondes I have met have been very smart. So where are the "dumb blondes"?

74 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:31:30pm

re: #67 darthstar

Sorry for going off-topic, but I just wanted to say I got to enjoy first tracks this morning. I love ski season...

WOO HOO!

75 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:32:24pm

Our hidden camera within the Discovery Institute captured this reaction to the shows cancellation...

Image: whiningfundie.jpg

/

76 Racer X  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:35:35pm

What's the most useful word in the English language?

Shit may just be the most functional word in the English language.

Consider:

You can get shit-faced, Be shit-out-of-luck, Or have shit for brains.

With a little effort, you can get your shit together, find a place for your shit, or be asked to shit or get off the pot.

You can smoke shit, buy shit, sell shit, lose shit, find shit, forget shit, and tell others to eat shit.

Some people know their shit, while others can't tell the difference between shit and shineola.

There are lucky shits, dumb shits, and crazy shits. There is bull shit, horse shit, and chicken shit.

You can throw shit, sling shit, catch shit, shoot the shit, or duck when the shit hits the fan.

You can give a shit or serve shit on a shingle.

You can find yourself in deep shit or be happier than a pig in shit.

Some days are colder than shit, some days are hotter than shit, and some days are just plain shitty.

Some music sounds like shit, things can look like shit, and there are times when you feel like shit.

You can have too much shit, not enough shit, the right shit, the wrong shit or a lot of weird shit.

You can carry shit, have a mountain of shit, or find yourself up shit creek without a paddle.

Sometimes everything you touch turns to shit and other times you fall in a bucket of shit and come out smelling like a rose.

When you stop to consider all the facts, it's the basic building block of the English language.

And remember, once you know your shit, you don't need to know anything else!!

Shit Happens!!!

77 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:36:02pm

re: #72 reine.de.tout

Me either, HH.
I'd break my leg or put my eye out or something . ..

Me Too.. Now I'll go to Tahoe and hang out at the bar...But skiing has always scared the hell out of me.. I have a weak left knee...

78 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:36:12pm

On a related note, I found this audio clip earlier today and linked it in the spinoffs- some of you might find it very fascinating, as I did.

What I first thought was going to be some sort of crypto-intelligent design nonsense actually turned into an interesting discussion on the science of spirituality, and are our brains designed with a "God Spot"? I think anyone interested in science and religion - from an atheist viewpoint to the viewpoint of the devout - will find something of interest in this hour long talk. Very thought provoking.

Fingerprints of God

79 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:44:13pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

What I first thought was going to be some sort of crypto-intelligent design nonsense actually turned into an interesting discussion on the science of spirituality, and are our brains designed with a "God Spot"?
Fingerprints of God

Is this the same as what the kids call the G-Spot?
OOOOOH GAWWWWD!

80 darthstar  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:45:11pm

re: #70 HoosierHoops

I have never ski'd in my life...

re: #72 reine.de.tout

Me either, HH.
I'd break my leg or put my eye out or something . ..

Don't worry...I'll ski enough days for everybody. :)

81 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:47:25pm

re: #80 darthstar

And snag first tracks, as much as possible.
You little piggy.....
Errr, what fun!

82 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:52:22pm

re: #76 Racer X

You are so wrong..Shit is not the word..It is Fuck...
I worked in shipyards for the DOD for 20 years.. I have heard white hat general managers use the word Fuck in scolding sessions for hours..
Just a thing of beauty.. Once a Navy man goes for it.. It becomes a thing of beauty..Like art work....

83 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:52:30pm

In the previous thread we have yet another theocrat arguing that the founding fathers of the US intended the US to be a "Christian nation."

84 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:52:33pm

re: #59 Jeff In Ohio

I like the oven to be good an hot before I throw the bread in and if I've used it to proof , then the bread might loose it's shape before the oven is hot enough for it to go in.

That was my concern but it didn't really present a problem. I did my last rise in the oven, took the bread out and scored it. It took about 10 minutes to get the oven up to 550 (about as high as residential ovens will go) and I threw it back in. The nice thing about the oven proofing was nice big air pockets inside. Much better than I ever achieved proofing at room temp. I was even using all purpose flour tonight instead of bread flour. I think I'm a big fan of oven proofing bread now.

85 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:53:33pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Snowing outside and I'm experimenting with proofing bread in the oven instead of my usual improvised proofing box. The kitchen is too cold for the bread to rise on it's own. These old houses are drafty.

KT, I have a drafty old house too, just made bread in my cold kitchen today. I turn on the oven to 225 and proof it in a covered metal bowl on the stovetop when the oven warms the top up. Works every time.

86 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:54:07pm

re: #76 Racer X

I have to go with this word being more versatile- language warning:

87 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:56:31pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

That was my concern but it didn't really present a problem. I did my last rise in the oven, took the bread out and scored it. It took about 10 minutes to get the oven up to 550 (about as high as residential ovens will go) and I threw it back in. The nice thing about the oven proofing was nice big air pockets inside. Much better than I ever achieved proofing at room temp. I was even using all purpose flour tonight instead of bread flour. I think I'm a big fan of oven proofing bread now.

Interesting. Gas oven? Mine won't hit full temp till a good 30 mins or so, it's electric. Anyway, the plastic proofing box works well, the added moisture from the cups of hot water keep the skin tight - I can proof 2 loaves in each box and make 6 1lb loaves at once, rotating them through the oven to keep them consistent.

88 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:56:45pm

re: #65 Racer X

Two blondes went deep into the frozen woods searching for a Christmas tree.

After hours of shivering in subzero temperatures and several close encounters with hungry wolves, one blonde turned to the other and said,

"I'm chopping down the next tree I see. I don't care whether it's decorated or not!"

Like the blonde who wanted a pair of alligator shoes, so she went alligator hunting looking for one wearing a pair?

89 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:58:01pm

re: #76 Racer X


What's the most useful word in the English language?

Shit may just be the most functional word in the English language.


Possibly but I've been watching British cooking shows and I'm impressed by thier use of the word "pudding". They call desert "pudding" so that encompasses all sorts of cake, pie, and cookies. There's also Bead Pudding, Yorkishire pudding (a pastry) and Black Pudding (a sausage), and bread pudding (another desert). Those guys sure love pudding.

90 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:59:16pm

re: #86 Sharmuta

I have to go with this word being more versatile- language warning:


[Video]

Email this week my friend.. I'm on vacation...You know that thing? *wink*

91 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 6:59:54pm

re: #77 HoosierHoops

Me Too.. Now I'll go to Tahoe and hang out at the bar...But skiing has always scared the hell out of me.. I have a weak left knee...

Skiing is awesome. And I am a complete klutz. I have never broken anything or poked anything out, I have never hit a tree. I did end up in a stream once.

92 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:00:14pm

re: #85 CapeCoddah

I put a pan of water in and turned the oven (gas) on for just a few minutes. I'm guessing about 90-100 degrees. Put the loaves in for their final rise of about 30 minutes. Worked out real well.

93 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:00:56pm

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Email me this week my friend.. I'm on vacation...You know that thing? *wink*


Spell check /on
idiot check /off

94 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:02:05pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

Robert really gets around...

Yes he does, this same group also sponsored some of the standard "Save Europe because it's doomed" conferences back in 2007, here's one:

[Link: www.americanfreedomalliance.org...]

It probably eventually ties back to the same funders as Horowitz, FCF, etc.

95 Locker  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:02:07pm

It would seem that to any logical person, the dishonest and deceitful methods frequently used to disseminate this information would automatically cancel out any implied validity. The primary targets, however, probably aren't heavily into logic.

96 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:02:51pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

I put a pan of water in and turned the oven (gas) on for just a few minutes. I'm guessing about 90-100 degrees. Put the loaves in for their final rise of about 30 minutes. Worked out real well.

Nice. I would kill for a gas stove. I detest electric.

97 Locker  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:05:26pm

re: #96 CapeCoddah

Nice. I would kill for a gas stove. I detest electric.

I agree but it's the burners that would really kill me.

98 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:06:01pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Possibly but I've been watching British cooking shows and I'm impressed by thier use of the word "pudding". They call desert "pudding" so that encompasses all sorts of cake, pie, and cookies. There's also Bead Pudding, Yorkishire pudding (a pastry) and Black Pudding (a sausage), and bread pudding (another desert). Those guys sure love pudding.

What we call "pudding" they call "blancmange"

99 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:06:44pm

re: #94 Thanos

Yes he does, this same group also sponsored some of the standard "Save Europe because it's doomed" conferences back in 2007, here's one:

[Link: www.americanfreedomalliance.org...]

It probably eventually ties back to the same funders as Horowitz, FCF, etc.

That's a great point! Let me start digging again.

100 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:09:54pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Possibly but I've been watching British cooking shows and I'm impressed by thier use of the word "pudding". They call desert "pudding" so that encompasses all sorts of cake, pie, and cookies. There's also Bead Pudding, Yorkishire pudding (a pastry) and Black Pudding (a sausage), and bread pudding (another desert). Those guys sure love pudding.

The brits also have a pudding called spotted dick.

Lord help me, the name just fascinates me.

101 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:10:19pm

After CSSing all day, I finally uploaded my new template. It looks fine in Firefox but the sidebars are messed up in IE. Tell me what you think.

102 cliffster  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:10:28pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Hey KT, have you ever done anything in the way of gluten-free bread baking?

103 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:10:28pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Those guys sure love pudding.

We certainly do, and I still haven't been able to find a single Christmas pudding in Manhattan food stores.

104 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:11:10pm

re: #96 CapeCoddah

Nice. I would kill for a gas stove. I detest electric.

I also prefer gas for cooking.
However, I bought a Jenn-Air, and I love it. Oven heats nice and evenly, and heats quickly. Door is so airtight, no heat escapes at all. I love love love it.

105 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:12:33pm

On twitter, allahpundit is looking for a quote of the day.

Charles, you should say something quotable.

106 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:12:52pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Black Pudding is the key to a esoteric martial art...

EckyThump!

107 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:13:29pm

Bulls are beating the crap out of the Pacers...3 minutes to play...
But you know what I always say about pro Ball.. Nothing matters until the final 2 minutes in a pro game.. The Lakers could be behind by like 50 points and when it comes to the final 2 minutes everything changes...

108 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:13:47pm

re: #101 Alouette

looking nice... one problem for me (Safari) is that the "search" button is partially laying on top of the Google search field.

109 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:14:04pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

There's also Bubble and squeek, I just love the name.

110 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:14:50pm

re: #102 cliffster

Hey KT, have you ever done anything in the way of gluten-free bread baking?

Not really, gluten has never been a problem for me so I've never explored it.

111 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:14:52pm

re: #104 reine.de.tout

I also prefer gas for cooking.
However, I bought a Jenn-Air, and I love it. Oven heats nice and evenly, and heats quickly. Door is so airtight, no heat escapes at all. I love love love it.

Hubby and his crew will be running gas lines down our road this spring.. It will be nice to have him working so close to home... as soon as he passes our house, I will be buying a gas stove!

112 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:15:36pm

re: #76 Racer X

What's the most useful word in the English language?

Shit may just be the most functional word in the English language.

I remember reading a viral computer file (before the days of e-mail) which suggested that the F-word was the most useful word. The file has evolved, but here's something that is similar to the original version that I read in the 1980s.

The Word

113 ryannon  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:16:23pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

The brits also have a pudding called spotted dick.

Lord help me, the name just fascinates me.

They also have a dish called 'Toad in the Hole'.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Strange people, those Brits.

114 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:16:25pm

re: #111 CapeCoddah

Hubby and his crew will be running gas lines down our road this spring.. It will be nice to have him working so close to home... as soon as he passes our house, I will be buying a gas stove!

Check with the gas company. Out here they'll cut you a discount if you convert to gas heat, stove and water heater all at the same time.

115 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:16:32pm

re: #107 HoosierHoops

Bulls are beating the crap out of the Pacers...3 minutes to play...
But you know what I always say about pro Ball.. Nothing matters until the final 2 minutes in a pro game.. The Lakers could be behind by like 50 points and when it comes to the final 2 minutes everything changes...

I've seen that for myself...I watched Johnson take over a triple time victory over the Pistons...the baby hook was unstoppable...they have a history, the Lakers that is

116 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:16:58pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Check with the gas company. Out here they'll cut you a discount if you convert to gas heat, stove and water heater all at the same time.

LOL, Hubby works for them.

117 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:17:35pm

re: #101 Alouette

Also, changing text size (Safari) starts to wreck havoc on the side bars.

One aesthetic item... be very careful with gray shades. I've noticed that there is a very subtle communication with using gray shades... lighter the better for serious (intellectual) stuff, while darker is good for photo/imaging stuff.

118 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:18:01pm

re: #106 oaktree

Black Pudding is the key to a esoteric martial art...

EckyThump!

Bleeding 'ell, that takes me back a bit. Do you remember also the Welsh martial art of "Llap Goch", as featured in the Monty Python "pabberbok"?

119 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:18:46pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

The brits also have a pudding called spotted dick.

Lord help me, the name just fascinates me.

It's nothing to do with a lack of vitamin C.

120 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:19:11pm

re: #108 freetoken

looking nice... one problem for me (Safari) is that the "search" button is partially laying on top of the Google search field.

I want to put the Google search tool in the header, on the right (like Charles has it) but was having problems getting it lined up correctly, so I put it in the right sidebar while I work on this IE problem.

This CSS thing is new to me, I've been using CSS tags for style, but not for an entire template. My current template is all nested HTML tables, so 2002.

121 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:20:34pm

re: #120 Alouette

I want to put the Google search tool in the header, on the right (like Charles has it) but was having problems getting it lined up correctly, so I put it in the right sidebar while I work on this IE problem.

This CSS thing is new to me, I've been using CSS tags for style, but not for an entire template. My current template is all nested HTML tables, so 2002.

two words...
Firefox

122 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:24:10pm

re: #121 albusteve

two words...
Firefox

I use Firefox but not everybody else does, so I have to make my template work in IE for those poor fools.

123 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:24:53pm

re: #118 John Neverbend

Bleeding 'ell, that takes me back a bit. Do you remember also the Welsh martial art of "Llap Goch", as featured in the Monty Python "pabberbok"?

Not off hand, but it wouldn't surprise me since the Goodies and Monty Python personnel have a lot of common connections. I still watch Python episodes a lot, but the Goodies never had the same exposure and I don't recall ever seeing their series released on DVD. Though I have used a still from the "Kitten Kong" episode as wallpaper now and then.

124 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:25:01pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

They call desert "pudding" so that encompasses all sorts of cake, pie, and cookies. There's also Bead Pudding, Yorkishire pudding (a pastry) and Black Pudding (a sausage),

A sausage made from blood, of course - also called "blood pudding". Taste varies from delicious to inedible, depending on the chef.

125 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:25:59pm

re: #115 albusteve

I've seen that for myself...I watched Johnson take over a triple time victory over the Pistons...the baby hook was unstoppable...they have a history, the Lakers that is

The most exciting college player this year.. He has been compared to Magic in his young days.. John Wall: Stud!
[Link: rivals.yahoo.com...]

Dude..I know his stats are wrong...Listed 6' 4" I have a buddy that stood by him..He is 6'2" or less...Wall is not that tall.. I trust my friend..When he emails me and says Wall is 6'2" I believe him..Not the tv...
Damn Wall brings it.. shooting..passing...running the floor..I love that dude

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:27:33pm

re: #124 Jimmah

A sausage made from blood, of course - also called "blood pudding".

Sorry, Jimmah. It just sounds wrong on so many levels.

128 webevintage  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:27:44pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

There's also Bubble and squeek, I just love the name.

Yum.
A great way to use leftovers...

129 ryannon  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:27:49pm

re: #124 Jimmah

A sausage made from blood, of course - also called "blood pudding". Taste varies from delicious to inedible, depending on the chef.

In France, it's called a boudin noir. Absolutely delicious with mashed potatoes or caramelized apples.

130 cliffster  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:28:41pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

If you click on "financing" in the right side bar, you get nothing.

Heh.

Hmm, if you click on any of the links, you get nothing.

131 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:30:41pm

re: #120 Alouette

As far as I am concerned, HTML is a work of the Devil.

Years ago (at the very beginning of the Web) I was tasked by the Admiralty to evaluate certain technologies for transmitting information... it was of course just an exercise in ego stroking but even then the problems were clear.

Without getting too comp-sci-nerd on you... there are different ways of understanding what a "document" or "information" can be. For example, in Postscript (e.g., PDF) one uses a computer language (Postscript) in which to represent your creation, and then one depends upon an interpreter (inside your printer, or in your Adobe application) to execute said program exactly as you have written it.

Another way is to simply have data, and then depend upon drawing programs to represent that data (essentially HTML and web browsers.)

The idea of using simplr mark-ups in text documents (HTML) left it totally up to those writing the drawing programs (browsers) to determine how the final outcome would actually look for the end user.

IMO that leaves too much control out of the hands of the original content writer.

Even today, we see that the preferred format for serious documents being PDF, rather than HTML/XHTML.

/end of sermon...

132 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:30:58pm

re: #122 Alouette

I use Firefox but not everybody else does, so I have to make my template work in IE for those poor fools.

You need to start reading about the differences in IE 5 and 6's handling of the CSS 'box model' -- those are the most common problems with IE.

There are plenty of websites that can help diagnose any problems you run into -- Google is your friend here.

I highly recommend this site -- it lists pretty much all of the bugs in IE and suggests solutions: /* Position Is Everything */ — Modern browser bugs explained in detail!

133 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:31:47pm

re: #123 oaktree

I still watch Python episodes a lot, but the Goodies never had the same exposure and I don't recall ever seeing their series released on DVD.

Some of the episodes are on Youtube. Here's an excerpt on cricket.

134 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:33:36pm

re: #105 reine.de.tout

On twitter, allahpundit is looking for a quote of the day.

Charles, you should say something quotable.

The quote of the day has to be Peter King's idiotic statement that's the subject of the previous thread -- but that wouldn't fit the Hot Air party line too well.

135 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:34:23pm

Dutch Parliamentarian Geert Wilders, holds up the "Heroes of Conscience" award presented to him by the American Freedom Alliance

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

136 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:36:57pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Watch Craig's List for O'Keefe & Merritt 1950's stoves.
I LOVE mine!
I do wish they'd had self cleaning, but, well, it's still worth it!
Here's the folks who restored mine!
[Link: www.antiquestoveheaven.com...]

137 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:41:19pm

re: #132 Charles

You need to start reading about the differences in IE 5 and 6's handling of the CSS 'box model' -- those are the most common problems with IE.

There are plenty of websites that can help diagnose any problems you run into -- Google is your friend here.

I highly recommend this site -- it lists pretty much all of the bugs in IE and suggests solutions: /* Position Is Everything */ — Modern browser bugs explained in detail!

Thanks! Bookmarked!

138 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:41:41pm

re: #133 John Neverbend

Classic bit. Thanks for the link. I see that Kitten Kong has been pulled from YouTube.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:41:56pm

Hey Evening Lizards!

Just watched the New Star Trek for the 3rd time. My re-immersion into Sci-Fi is nearly complete. It isn't nearly as disturbing as real life. Escapism is the my new reality.

How are you-all?

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:42:35pm

re: #134 Charles

The quote of the day has to be Peter King's idiotic statement that's the subject of the previous thread -- but that wouldn't fit the Hot Air party line too well.

something quotable

141 albusteve  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:45:16pm

re: #125 HoosierHoops

The most exciting college player this year.. He has been compared to Magic in his young days.. John Wall: Stud!
[Link: rivals.yahoo.com...]

Dude..I know his stats are wrong...Listed 6' 4" I have a buddy that stood by him..He is 6'2" or less...Wall is not that tall.. I trust my friend..When he emails me and says Wall is 6'2" I believe him..Not the tv...
Damn Wall brings it.. shooting..passing...running the floor..I love that dude

whoa...thanks for that, he could be the next?....

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:46:30pm

re: #62 Spare O'Lake

Looks like sanity has indeed prevailed - Ms. Bary is not being forced to submit to parental control over her protestatations of fear of abuse, and has at the same time been rescued from the religious cult.

When does this kid turn eighteen again?

143 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:46:36pm

Possible quotes of the day from the crazies at FoxNation:

On the thread about the Sec of Ag asking the EPA to reexamine economics models wrt agriculture and AGW policy:

Marion Morrison
If I plant a tree, can I hang a government official from it? They turned off the water to the farmers in Central California, which produces enough food for 1/3 of the world, and these lunatics want to plant trees instead of growing food! Now I know Barack Obama is not from this world!
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 03:41 PM

Yeah, right, central California feeds over 2 billion people...

Or how about these from the thread on "Why don't we profile?":

Citizen4USA
We need to use common sense. If U can't judge a book by it's cover..........well.........oops..my bad!! Better safer than sorry.
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 09:20 PM

-

JUST STOP
If it was middle aged white men doing it you could bet your bottom dollar there would be profiling, and the innocent among that group would understand why it was being done.
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 07:03 PM


-

Mac45
We should profile to keep our country safe from these radical moslems. Remember Obama's is a Moslum.
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 06:30 PM

Lot's of winners for today's quote of the day...

144 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:46:45pm

Doing a bit of digging I find Chernick involved with AFA, wasn't he also one of the funders of PJM?

145 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:47:02pm

re: #105 reine.de.tout

On twitter, allahpundit is looking for a quote of the day.

Charles, you should say something quotable.

Here's my suggestion....

Game Over.

Break out the Confederate Flag!

This country’s goin’ broke and there isn’t a wrench big enough to fix it!

HondaV65 on December 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:47:05pm

re: #63 recusancy

OT: Anti gay marriage zealot Karl Rove is getting his second divorce doing his best to uphold the great institution of marriage.

If gay folks are gonna get married, straight folks will get married TWICE as often!

147 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:47:27pm

When Obama said yesterday that the terrorist was "isolated" on the plane", that particular choice of words puzzled more than one commenter.
After further consideration I have now concluded that the President simply meant that the extremist was VEWY, VEWY, WONEWY on that plane.

148 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:47:57pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Yes, he should just look through the comments at HotAir to find his quote, eh?

149 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:48:42pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

When does this kid turn eighteen again?

August, 2010.

150 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:48:53pm

re: #143 freetoken

Heh. Good stuff.

151 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:48:59pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

When does this kid turn eighteen again?

August 2010, I think

152 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:51:24pm

re: #150 Killgore Trout

I thought them kind of... ordinary, looking at the rest of FoxNation. The vile piling up there is getting quite deep.

I'm wondering when web filters will start to recognize Fox websites as hate sites?

153 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:51:34pm

Don't see anything about this at The Panda's Thumb at present...

154 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:52:45pm

Example from FoxNation:

Michael
Obama is a terrorist sympathizer,along many others on the left.
He endangers this country and should be removed from office by law along with his followers.
when the law fails or refuses to do its job,then the citizens of this country must stand up and fight another revolution..
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 08:51 PM

155 Digital Display  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:53:01pm

re: #141 albusteve

whoa...thanks for that, he could be the next?...

He brings a 2#guard.. But he is a point guard and can dish the ball..He can score inside...People have called him a young Magic...We will only see him one year in College...Gone are the days we get to see talent develop in College..
We will never see a Larry Bird or Magic play 4 years again...

156 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:54:06pm

re: #152 freetoken

I'm wondering when web filters will start to recognize Fox websites as hate sites?


I looked arounf the comments at Fox a few days ago. Pretty much every article had racial comments. Almost identical to what you'll find a stormfront.

157 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:54:19pm

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to differentiate the commenters at Fox sites from those at (we hope surveilled by law enforcement) anarchist sites.

158 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:54:56pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

On a related note, I found this audio clip earlier today and linked it in the spinoffs- some of you might find it very fascinating, as I did.

What I first thought was going to be some sort of crypto-intelligent design nonsense actually turned into an interesting discussion on the science of spirituality, and are our brains designed with a "God Spot"? I think anyone interested in science and religion - from an atheist viewpoint to the viewpoint of the devout - will find something of interest in this hour long talk. Very thought provoking.

Fingerprints of God

Actually, it just looks like the same old argument from design all over again.

From P Z Myers blog, commenting on a review that can be found here:

And the conclusion of her book?

"Nevertheless, Hagerty concludes by erring on the side of amorphous belief, concluding that "the language of our genes, the chemistry of our bodies, and the wiring of our brains - these are the handiwork of One who longs to be known.""

If he longs to be known, why not just come out and say howdy? Is this god shy or something? Otherwise, this is just the standard Intelligent Design creationist malarkey: something that is complex has the appearance of design because a) people conflate complexity with intent, and b) people have brains that have evolved to explain the world in terms of agency, therefore it must be designed by an intelligent agent for a purpose.

It's a good review. It convinced me that I don't need to read the book, ever.

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

159 danhenry1  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:55:40pm

Hi everyone,
I went to Avi's site and was thrown off a bit because of I keyed in on his editorial.. I'm not too much a worrier about the creationist nut-jobs, but I do worry about what he was talking about concerning the Courts getting involved in schools like he mentioned in his editorial. That type of behavior by the legal system is worrisome. Unless you know more about this Avi Davis, Charles and can share some light on where he is going with the British 'Supreme Court'?

160 danhenry1  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:57:25pm

sorry, I've got to go back to school and learn to put thoughts into something coherent

161 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:57:45pm

OT: Whoah! Go to images.google.com and type "offensive". Don't even click on Search, just look what comes up in the auto-complete, and in how many variations.

162 laZardo  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:58:26pm

Less than 48 hours to 2010. Not looking forward to much other than trying to get the last drink to get the yearly planner from Starbucks. :D

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 7:59:26pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Possibly but I've been watching British cooking shows and I'm impressed by thier use of the word "pudding". They call desert "pudding" so that encompasses all sorts of cake, pie, and cookies. There's also Bead Pudding, Yorkishire pudding (a pastry) and Black Pudding (a sausage), and bread pudding (another desert). Those guys sure love pudding.

Brits are heavily into whipped cream.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:00:19pm

re: #96 CapeCoddah

Nice. I would kill for a gas stove. I detest electric.

You know...uh...they sell them in stores...no homicide needed...

/

165 laZardo  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:00:54pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Brits are heavily into whipped cream.

I'll say.

166 danhenry1  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:01:49pm

Bead Pudding must be tough on the teeth
and other delights?

167 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:01:58pm

re: #162 laZardo

Less than 48 hours to 2010. Not looking forward to much other than trying to get the last drink to get the yearly planner from Starbucks. :D

At a certain couple of Starbucks is the End Of The Universe.

168 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:02:29pm

re: #161 The Sanity Inspector

OT: Whoah! Go to images.google.com and type "offensive". Don't even click on Search, just look what comes up in the auto-complete, and in how many variations.

I have my own ideas about what is offensive, I don't need google or anyone else to tell me...

169 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:02:30pm

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry, Jimmah. It just sounds wrong on so many levels.

Great if you get it from the right chef, though, although you really can't tell the quality by looking at it in the shop, unfortunately. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

170 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:04:27pm

Alex Jones now owns the right-wing in this country, what else could I conclude?

Speaking of which, the lead story on Jone's site includes this masterful display of the English language:

Detroit attorney Kurt Haskell dropped bombshell revelations concerning his eyewitness experience of the Flight 253 attack and how the FBI detained a second man after dogs detected a bomb in his luggage on The Alex Jones Show today. The FBI has not only ignored Haskell’s story, but they have launched a cover-up by refusing to even acknowledge the existence of another man who filmed the entire flight, including the aborted attack, as well as the well-dressed man who aided the bomber to board the plane even though he had no passport and was on a terror watch list.

I wonder, does every guest of Jones bring their luggage with them to the show?

171 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:05:38pm

re: #170 freetoken

Alex Jones now owns the right-wing in this country, what else could I conclude?[...]

Doesn't own me; I never hear about him outside of LGF.

172 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:05:42pm

I'll tell you, I don't know why all the debate about Darwin, G-d and the state of the global climate. I've just leared that all will be fine. The plastics are taking care of all our problems.

Global reproductive activity is declining. The planet will be fine, we won't overpopulate and there will be less of us to turn into fossils.

Life is good.

/

173 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:05:57pm

re: #158 Jimmah

The parts where she was discussing the areas of our brain that are triggered, and what scientists are actually doing to study the issue was really interesting. It's too bad some people are so close minded that can't consider giving any amount of time to something they don't understand in the hopes it might shed a new perspective on something for them, even if they still disagree in the end. To each their own.

174 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:06:27pm

re: #170 freetoken

Alex Jones now owns the right-wing in this country, what else could I conclude?

Speaking of which, the lead story on Jone's site includes this masterful display of the English language:


I wonder, does every guest of Jones bring their luggage with them to the show?

It's the last stopm on the way to --well you know.

:)

175 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:06:31pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

He works in secret...

176 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #169 Jimmah

Great if you get it from the right chef, though, although you really can't tell the quality by looking at it in the shop, unfortunately. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Some people just can't get into eating clotted blood, I am one of them. But please go have a great time with it.

177 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:07:12pm

How did we miss this one?

Luap Nor uncovers the Truth about the latest terrorist event:

178 laZardo  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:07:35pm

re: #167 The Sanity Inspector

The end of the universe is a Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks.

Just like in Shrek II.

179 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:07:41pm

re: #170 freetoken

Alex Jones now owns the right-wing in this country, what else could I conclude?

Speaking of which, the lead story on Jone's site includes this masterful display of the English language:

I wonder, does every guest of Jones bring their luggage with them to the show?

Not only was he ignored by the FBI but they've also "launched a cover-up!"

Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat.

/

180 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:07:45pm

re: #176 brookly red

Some people just can't get into eating clotted blood, I am one of them. But please go have a great time with it.

It's a vampyre thing. You know, it's all the rage now.

181 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:07:53pm

re: #131 freetoken

As far as I am concerned, HTML is a work of the Devil.

Years ago (at the very beginning of the Web) I was tasked by the Admiralty to evaluate certain technologies for transmitting information... it was of course just an exercise in ego stroking but even then the problems were clear.

Without getting too comp-sci-nerd on you... there are different ways of understanding what a "document" or "information" can be. For example, in Postscript (e.g., PDF) one uses a computer language (Postscript) in which to represent your creation, and then one depends upon an interpreter (inside your printer, or in your Adobe application) to execute said program exactly as you have written it.

Another way is to simply have data, and then depend upon drawing programs to represent that data (essentially HTML and web browsers.)

The idea of using simplr mark-ups in text documents (HTML) left it totally up to those writing the drawing programs (browsers) to determine how the final outcome would actually look for the end user.

IMO that leaves too much control out of the hands of the original content writer.

Even today, we see that the preferred format for serious documents being PDF, rather than HTML/XHTML.

/end of sermon...

You can talk comp-sci-nerd to me--I started my career programming Fortran on mainframes. It seems that every couple of years I have to relearn everything, and I'm not getting any younger!

My site (apart from the Zionist Mall which is the revenue source) is primarily an archive depot. I have over 2000 files!

182 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:08:22pm

re: #159 danhenry1

I've been to Avi's blog and he sees the world through conspiracy lenses. e.g. this passage from one of his articles sounds very birchish:

This movement, through a variety of plans and designs, calls for an end to the structure of western civilization as we know it. The elimination of private property, the restructuring of the family unit, the negation of national sovereignty, a proscription on growth, increasing restrictions on mobility and access to opportunity and the control of human procreation - are all matters addressed by the sustainability movement.

Everything from Muslims to the UN to Science and Darwin is going to end the world as we know it if you scan through his blog a bit.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:08:45pm

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry, Jimmah. It just sounds wrong on so many levels.

Blood pudding is not too bad. I ate it, back when I ate trayf. Never liked white pudding.

184 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:08:49pm

On the Luap Nor video... at 2:55, the raising of the mysterious "agenda".

185 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:09:02pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

You know...uh...they sell them in stores...no homicide needed...

/

Gas needed!

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:09:11pm

re: #182 Thanos

I've been to Avi's blog and he sees the world through conspiracy lenses. e.g. this passage from one of his articles sounds very birchish:


Everything from Muslims to the UN to Science and Darwin is going to end the world as we know it if you scan through his blog a bit.

They are all wrong. It's PLASTIC. My cat told me so.

/

187 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:09:51pm

re: #177 freetoken

How did we miss this one?

Luap Nor uncovers the Truth about the latest terrorist event:


[Video]

Flight 253 was a False Flag operation!

Aliens!

/

188 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:09:52pm

re: #185 CapeCoddah

Gas needed!

Do you have a dryer?

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:10:10pm

re: #149 Spare O'Lake

August, 2010.

Lord, give us patience.

190 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:11:13pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

Lord, give us patience.

I once prayed for patience... I learned not to do that again.

191 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:11:48pm

re: #176 brookly red

Some people just can't get into eating clotted blood, I am one of them. But please go have a great time with it.

You shouldn't be so parochial. After all, compared to a steamy haggis, blood-clot pudding is probably yummy.
*barf*

192 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:13:01pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The parts where she was discussing the areas of our brain that are triggered, and what scientists are actually doing to study the issue was really interesting. It's too bad some people are so close minded that can't consider giving any amount of time to something they don't understand in the hopes it might shed a new perspective on something for them, even if they still disagree in the end. To each their own.

She's just applying the same old argument from design to a new field - this is no different to arguing that the complexity of any other biological system proves the hand of a designer. One can choose to believe it of course as a matter of religious faith, but in the absence of any shred of supporting evidence, it is not science.

193 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:13:38pm

re: #188 Alouette

Do you have a dryer?

Yep...we have all those new fangled inventions, even here!

194 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:14:21pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

Lord, give us patience.

re: #190 Sharmuta

I once prayed for patience... I learned not to do that again.

Dear Lord, make me humble and chaste, but not yet :)

I know I am not getting the Augustine quite right, but I love the quote.

195 laZardo  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:14:21pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Flight 253 was a False Flag operation!

Aliens!

/

INSAHD JAWWWB!

/mmm, Texan drawl.

196 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:15:40pm

Dinner has arrived - steak (slightly rare of course) ;-) later!

197 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:15:57pm

re: #195 laZardo

INSAHD JAWWWB!

/mmm, Texan drawl.

Ron Paul speaks truth teh powah!

//

You should have heard him. He said he thinks there's some propaganda going on.

198 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:16:07pm

re: #192 Jimmah

She's just applying the same old argument from design to a new field - this is no different to arguing that the complexity of any other biological system proves the hand of a designer. One can choose to believe it of course as a matter of religious faith, but in the absence of any shred of supporting evidence, it is not science.

Oh- I'm sorry. You read her book or listened to the interview?

199 freetoken  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:16:40pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Flight 253 was a False Flag operation!

Aliens!

/

Don't laugh... over on Jones' Infowars site they are calling it exactly that.

200 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:17:05pm

re: #191 Spare O'Lake

You shouldn't be so parochial. After all, compared to a steamy haggis, blood-clot pudding is probably yummy.
*barf*

/it's a gateway drug you start with blood clot pudding & next thing you know your picking scabs & dipping em in salsa...

201 Gus  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:17:33pm

re: #199 freetoken

Don't laugh... over on Jones' Infowars site they are calling it exactly that.

It was only a matter of time.

202 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:18:37pm

re: #193 CapeCoddah

Yep...we have all those new fangled inventions, even here!

If you already have a dryer, your plumber can install a gas stove.

203 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:18:48pm

re: #192 Jimmah

She's just applying the same old argument from design to a new field - this is no different to arguing that the complexity of any other biological system proves the hand of a designer. One can choose to believe it of course as a matter of religious faith, but in the absence of any shred of supporting evidence, it is not science.

I also really don't give a damn. I found that audio an interesting listen, and thought I'd share. I thought it was thought provoking for folks anywhere on the theistic spectrum.

My apologies for sharing thought provoking material. [eye roll]

204 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:20:02pm

re: #202 Alouette

If you already have a dryer, your plumber can install a gas stove.

We don't have gas down our street yet. Hubby is a construction contractor for the gas company. He and his crew are putting gas down our street in April or May. He will tie us in as the crew goes by the house.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:21:23pm

oh, gotta go.

Have a great evening all!

206 brookly red  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:22:38pm

re: #204 CapeCoddah

We don't have gas down our street yet. Hubby is a construction contractor for the gas company. He and his crew are putting gas down our street in April or May. He will tie us in as the crew goes by the house.

and then those freakin clams are gonna pay!

207 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:23:02pm

re: #206 brookly red

and then those freakin clams are gonna pay!

Bet your ass on it!

208 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:24:42pm

And speaking of hubby, time to go snuggle in with him. He should have the bed sufficiently warmed! Goodnight everyone, have a wonderful evening!

209 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:24:49pm

re: #198 Sharmuta

Oh- I'm sorry. You read her book or listened to the interview?

I haven't read the book, but I must say that I find it fascinating that the human brain might be hard-wired to believe in God. Even for an atheist I would have thought this would be an interesting concept, since it could perhaps explain why an otherwise irrational belief in God remains so popular in our modern science-based society.

210 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:24:54pm

Another quote of the day nominee for Allah Pundit.....


Ron Paul could be a great VP.

moonbatkiller on December 29, 2009 at 11:02 PM

211 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:26:50pm

re: #192 Jimmah

She's just applying the same old argument from design to a new field - this is no different to arguing that the complexity of any other biological system proves the hand of a designer. One can choose to believe it of course as a matter of religious faith, but in the absence of any shred of supporting evidence, it is not science.

Neurophysics is where DI is branching, they are hip to the fact that scientists are starting to uncover amazing things like where our centers for moral decision are and how they might have come about through our social evolution. I'll be posting more about this in the future as there are new books on it and new schools of thought around it among both educators and scientists.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:27:11pm

re: #182 Thanos

I've been to Avi's blog and he sees the world through conspiracy lenses. e.g. this passage from one of his articles sounds very birchish:

Everything from Muslims to the UN to Science and Darwin is going to end the world as we know it if you scan through his blog a bit.

Must be a real depressing life to live, looking forward to the future and all you see are phantoms, monsters, conspiracies and things to be terrified of.

213 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:28:28pm

re: #209 Spare O'Lake

I haven't read the book, but I must say that I find it fascinating that the human brain might be hard-wired to believe in God. Even for an atheist I would have thought this would be an interesting concept, since it could perhaps explain why an otherwise irrational belief in God remains so popular in our modern science-based society.

There is a really interesting part of that audio where she discusses an atheist friend (who was raised Jewish) who became a Buddhist after he'd had brain surgery. After talking to the author about her research, he asked his neurosurgeon if he could look at his latest brain scans, and sure enough, there was increased activity in the lobe scientists have been linking to spirituality. Really- I think those snubbing their noses at that link don't know what they're missing.

214 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:29:53pm

re: #212 WindUpBird

Must be a real depressing life to live, looking forward to the future and all you see are phantoms, monsters, conspiracies and things to be terrified of.

I think that's what they call "Kids' TV".

215 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:31:21pm

Here's some background on "The God Gene" controversy:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

216 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:34:10pm

re: #211 Thanos

Neurophysics is where DI is branching, they are hip to the fact that scientists are starting to uncover amazing things like where our centers for moral decision are and how they might have come about through our social evolution. I'll be posting more about this in the future as there are new books on it and new schools of thought around it among both educators and scientists.

I'd be interested to see that. I found the audio to be really interesting and it contained a lot of information I didn't know, and I'd like to learn more about the legitimate science involved. One of the things she mentioned is how young this new branch of science is.

[I'd also like to say I haven't read this lady's book, however, in her speech, she specifically discusses the logical fallacy of the God in the Gaps argument. Not exactly the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from a DI shill. She also works for NPR- not a likely breeding ground for crypto-religious propaganda.]

217 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:36:19pm

re: #216 Sharmuta

This lecture covers some of the concepts, skip to 2:20 in if you want to bypass Dawkins

218 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:36:30pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The parts where she was discussing the areas of our brain that are triggered, and what scientists are actually doing to study the issue was really interesting.[...]

I learned something interesting today en route to looking up something else. The anterior cingulate cortex is an area of the brain believed to be connected with realizing that something's gone wrong. It's colloquially known as the "Oh Shit Circuit."

219 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:38:30pm

re: #217 Thanos

skip to 2:20 in if you want to bypass Dawkins

Why would I want to do that? ;)

220 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:38:58pm

re: #213 Sharmuta

There is a really interesting part of that audio where she discusses an atheist friend (who was raised Jewish) who became a Buddhist after he'd had brain surgery. After talking to the author about her research, he asked his neurosurgeon if he could look at his latest brain scans, and sure enough, there was increased activity in the lobe scientists have been linking to spirituality.

I listened to the broadcast. I think that the man in question had had brain surgery which had the unfortunate side effect of leading to temporal lobe epilepsy (this was recounted in the broadcast). The whole thing was certainly interesting, but it did leave me wondering whether the conclusion might be that one day religion and religious experience would be reducible to a description of various mental states.

221 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:40:51pm

re: #220 John Neverbend

I listened to the broadcast. I think that the man in question had had brain surgery which had the unfortunate side effect of leading to temporal lobe epilepsy (this was recounted in the broadcast). The whole thing was certainly interesting, but it did leave me wondering whether the conclusion might be that one day religion and religious experience would be reducible to a description of various mental states.

I'd be curious to know if they severed the corpus callosum; that has some known effects.

222 windsagio  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:41:00pm

re: #219 Sharmuta

because he's a douche?

~~~

Hey, you asked!

223 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:43:04pm

re: #220 John Neverbend

I listened to the broadcast. I think that the man in question had had brain surgery which had the unfortunate side effect of leading to temporal lobe epilepsy (this was recounted in the broadcast). The whole thing was certainly interesting, but it did leave me wondering whether the conclusion might be that one day religion and religious experience would be reducible to a description of various mental states.

Like I said- a thought provoking audio... I thought I'd share, and I'm glad some folks have gone ahead and listened to it.

224 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:43:48pm

The moment a child can express their thoughts they start to ask where they came from and every answer they get only leads to bigger questions. I have my doubts that there is a specific gene that triggers that curiosity.

225 humpty dumpty was pushed  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:44:17pm

re: #215 Thanos

That`s way interesting Thanos, thanks for mentioning it. As a coping mechanism faith in a higher power can help maintain one`s sanity, which probably sounds completely insane to people who don`t have the God gene.

226 John Neverbend  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:45:06pm

re: #221 Thanos

I'd be curious to know if they severed the corpus callosum; that has some known effects.

I don't think that's what happened in this case. Seeing your comment reminds me of Julian Jaynes' interesting theory about the bicameral mind.

227 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 8:48:54pm

re: #211 Thanos

Neurophysics is where DI is branching, they are hip to the fact that scientists are starting to uncover amazing things like where our centers for moral decision are and how they might have come about through our social evolution.

Exactly.

228 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 9:00:25pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

I also really don't give a damn. I found that audio an interesting listen, and thought I'd share. I thought it was thought provoking for folks anywhere on the theistic spectrum.

My apologies for sharing thought provoking material. [eye roll]

I daresay there could be an interesting passage or two in Darwin's Black Box' - but what concerns me with books that push the argument from design is what it adds up to in the end and this case it seems to be bullshit of a sadly familiar sort.

It would be unfortunate if people were suckered by the plausibility of a few well written passages into buying into the same sort of misconceptions that ID'ers have been pushing.

229 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 9:18:00pm

re: #228 Jimmah

Ah- well thankfully I didn't link to the book, just an audio of a discussion.

230 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 9:29:42pm

re: #229 Sharmuta

Ah- well thankfully I didn't link to the book, just an audio of a discussion.

Btw: Here's the homepage for Joshua Greene who is performing these moral studies, you can even take some tests there.

[Link: www.wjh.harvard.edu...]

231 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 9:33:33pm

re: #230 Thanos

Way cool! Feel free to shoot me an email any time you stumble on something along these lines you think might be worth sharing. I'm totally fascinated by this sort of stuff, so thanks for linking.

232 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 11:04:52pm

re: #217 Thanos

This lecture covers some of the concepts, skip to 2:20 in if you want to bypass Dawkins

[Video]

Wow! The MRI of the sociopaths was very interesting. Thanks for linking.

233 stiruptheblog  Tue, Dec 29, 2009 11:45:25pm
Well you are half right. I should be more clear...

Any sane and educated person despises the disgusting circus of hatred, fear mongering and medievalist evil that the modern GOP has become.

Sane and educated do abhor things like racism, sexism and homophobia. They detest having science destroyed.

As to being elitist, yes I am. I am smarter than you too. I also get laid much more frequently.

Did you just use the term "evil"? hmmm

I find this discussion all so ironic. Both science and religion require faith; one is physical, the other spiritual (or other than physical). Enjoy your faith and share it, don't squabble. It always comes to personal cheap shots here. Destroys credibility.

Why this forum has such a hard-on for this topic is beyond me. Seems LGF is intent on "disproving" creationism rather than simply sharing its belief in evolution. They are not mutually exclusive. They may both be right or both be wrong. By the way, you can always change the channel.

234 ryannon  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 3:10:32am

re: #162 laZardo

Less than 48 hours to 2010. Not looking forward to much other than trying to get the last drink to get the yearly planner from Starbucks. :D

Count your blessings.

235 ryannon  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 3:25:51am

re: #209 Spare O'Lake

I haven't read the book, but I must say that I find it fascinating that the human brain might be hard-wired to believe in God. Even for an atheist I would have thought this would be an interesting concept, since it could perhaps explain why an otherwise irrational belief in God remains so popular in our modern science-based society.

The human brain is hard-wired for consciousness. Some people define 'God' as unlimited, infinite consciousness. When your own consciousness merges into the realm of unlimited consciousness (according to The Buddha, who had a kind of twisted sense of humor, we're there already, but spend most of our time and energy ignoring it)....you pass the bong down the line and stop hogging it like a pig.

236 ryannon  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 3:31:36am

re: #224 Mich-again

The moment a child can express their thoughts they start to ask where they came from and every answer they get only leads to bigger questions. I have my doubts that there is a specific gene that triggers that curiosity.

You're wrong.

It has been identified as the 'Ask your mommy/daddy' gene.

237 ryannon  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 4:03:58am

Lights out, folks!

238 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 6:10:32am

Here's a lecture that goes into the NIH study on religion as viewed through MRI's in a bit more depth, it's very eye opening

239 califleftyb  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 1:56:38pm

There's an entire industry that has played this type of misdirection, and successfully I am sorry to say; the golf industry. (Please I am not anti-golf, hear me out). In order to convince the world that golf courses are "environmentally friendly" they've created a faux certification awarded by an outfit called "Audubon International" which they attempt to pass off as the real Audubon Society - which sued for use of the name but lost as it was considered too generic (kind of like Olympic).

Anyway golf courses pay for this certification which is all dressed up to fool the public to believe that since they've included a few duck ponds and use organic fertilizers that's supposed to make it "ok" that they've filled in wetlands and created mono-cultures which destroy bio-diversity. Unfortunately many municipalities have bought into this hoodwink scheme because it sounds "scientific" but only goes to serve the purposes of their real-estate development buddies. They hire "biostitutes" who are willing to sell their science background to help falsify that makes golf sound harmless for a few dollars and a clubhouse membership. Be on the lookout for this nonsense when it comes to your hometown.

240 S.D.  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 3:05:51pm

"American Freedom Alliance"?
Um, Free to "OBEY!" and play their Propaganda?

Nuts to them. I hope this case goes forward and they lose.

241 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 8:17:21pm

re: #233 stiruptheblog

Did you just use the term "evil"? hmmm

I find this discussion all so ironic. Both science and religion require faith; one is physical, the other spiritual (or other than physical). Enjoy your faith and share it, don't squabble. It always comes to personal cheap shots here. Destroys credibility.

Why this forum has such a hard-on for this topic is beyond me. Seems LGF is intent on "disproving" creationism rather than simply sharing its belief in evolution. They are not mutually exclusive. They may both be right or both be wrong. By the way, you can always change the channel.

Creationism and evolution, as popularly understood, really are mutually exclusive. Either the world is just a few thousand years old, or it older than that. When you trace your line of descent back, if you could see the past, either it would trace back through men and women only, coming to an abrupt end as one reached near the beginning of time, or it would shade off into man-like apes, then ape-like mammals, then some sort of tarsier-like small creature, and so on, running through hundreds of millions of years, until we hit fish and worms and what have you.

One answer is wrong, and the other is right. It's not a question of opinion or belief. Just as there are some people who believe the sun goes around the earth, there are some, (more, of course) who believe that humanity has no "blood ties" to the rest of the animal and plant kingdom. But we do, and the earth goes around the sun.

242 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 30, 2009 10:37:04pm

re: #233 stiruptheblog

Did you just use the term "evil"? hmmm

I find this discussion all so ironic. Both science and religion require faith; one is physical, the other spiritual (or other than physical). Enjoy your faith and share it, don't squabble. It always comes to personal cheap shots here. Destroys credibility.

What a stupid comment. Science is based on evidence, not faith. There is absolutely no "faith" involved in the scientific theory of evolution. It's backed up by a mountain of hard physical evidence. Science does not operate on "faith."

Why this forum has such a hard-on for this topic is beyond me.

Obviously.

Seems LGF is intent on "disproving" creationism rather than simply sharing its belief in evolution. They are not mutually exclusive. They may both be right or both be wrong. By the way, you can always change the channel.

Another stupid comment. No, they can't "both be right," and only one of them is wrong -- creationism.

You appear to have absolutely no understanding of the scientific method, and pathetically, you seek to degrade something you don't understand.

243 stiruptheblog  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 12:19:41am
Creationism and evolution, as popularly understood, really are mutually exclusive. Either the world is just a few thousand years old, or it older than that.

Again, no they are not. One who upholds ID doesnt automatically deny the existence of the law of evolution in nature. It could very well be humans interpreted the timeline of creation incorrectly. Man is fallible, proud, and creative. So we made up our own back story to feel significant. Everyone does it in one way or another. Does THAT alone negate the possibility of an intelligent design of this universe? (which is more likely one of many muli-verses, but i digress. We can get into quantum and other theories another time ;-)

But if the debate is over whether the popular religions of the world are right or wrong about when the earth was formed, then we have less of a disagreement. I think religion is more about sustaining the value of the human soul, rather than search for truth about the physical world. Whatever gets you through the day. But the possibility of God should never be removed or ignored. I can't say "i know" because I'm a man, ignorant. But I can say "i believe" in the possibility. Its the only open-minded and scientific way to approach it.

Perhaps i am collapsing Creationism and ID, but i think WHY we are here is far more significant than any HOW. I am a student of science because its a great vehicle to determine HOW. But to WHY, it falls short. We all dance around the real questions, Why are we here? Do we have a soul? I don't know if we have. But we all search in our own way for that answer. Some choose science, some faith, some don't care.

Existence.

244 StirUpTheBlog  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 12:27:27am

... and some would rather use the word "stupid" a million times rather than expand a dialogue. Any intellects on this page? Holy hell!

245 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 10:46:31am

re: #244 StirUpTheBlog

... and some would rather use the word "stupid" a million times rather than expand a dialogue. Any intellects on this page? Holy hell!

Apparently, despite your self-vaunted "intellect," you can't count either.

246 stiruptheblog  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 2:11:06pm

Nice retort Charlie, real snappy. I'll consider that comment your best. Moving on.

247 stiruptheblog  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 2:11:32pm

By the way... Happy New Year

248 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:04:52pm

re: #246 stiruptheblog

Nice retort Charlie, real snappy. I'll consider that comment your best. Moving on.

Because comparing science to religion never gets old, does it?

And you guys who do this (you aren't the first and you won't be the last) never seem to realize you're implicitly acknowledging there's something less valid about religious faith, when you attempt to denigrate the scientific method by likening it to religion.

249 Aye Pod  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 11:48:38am

re: #198 Sharmuta

Oh- I'm sorry. You read her book or listened to the interview?

Um, yes Sharmuta, I listened to the interview. Amazingly enough, it was listening to it that alerted me to her bullshit.

250 Aye Pod  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 11:57:46am

re: #209 Spare O'Lake

I haven't read the book, but I must say that I find it fascinating that the human brain might be hard-wired to believe in God. Even for an atheist I would have thought this would be an interesting concept, since it could perhaps explain why an otherwise irrational belief in God remains so popular in our modern science-based society.

Unlike Hagerty, scientists understand that the fact that the brain is 'hard wired' for belief demonstrates that belief is adaptive, it does not in any way validate the content of belief.


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