There are interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation and disorientation that produce much better and reliable results than burning off someone's testicles with a red hot poker.

Ugh! That's the kind of shit saddam would do to people, and the Chinese do to people. I would certainly hope our government could do better than that.

re: #2 Sharmuta

Ugh! That's the kind of shit saddam would do to people, and the Chinese do to people. I would certainly hope our government could do better than that.

What a disturbing lunatic no? I was just about to mention Saddam's regime after reading his fantasy of using a drill.

I want to believe that thats a Lenny Bruce style satire >>

Damn. That's one sick twisted fuck up. I bet he thinks what he's defending is something moral too. I'd like to say it's unbelievable, but I see that kind of sentiment expressed more than I wish to believe.

Sounds like he's promoting his own version of Sharia law.

I'm really SICK of people like this. People who think this way are no different than our enemies.

Normally, I'd get upset if Ludwig said someone had a "North Korean mentality" about interrogation. But not this time. Geeze, what a nut.

Conservative thought in action.

John Yoo would disagree with said poster. Torturing a child would just fine and dandy. I say we err on the side of caution and not torture anyone.

And for the U.S. being pathetic... Pot, I have a kettle I'd like you to meet.

re: #1 Alouette

There are interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation and disorientation that produce much better and reliable results than burning off someone's testicles with a red hot poker.

Quite concur. It is neither necessary nor desirable to maim someone in order to get information. The only thing doing that would be is an exercise in sheer sadism.

We shall defeat those that practice terrorism by...becoming terrorists!

Thats frigging brilliant!

///

re: #1 Alouette

There are interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation and disorientation that produce much better and reliable results than burning off someone's testicles with a red hot poker.

Disorientation is one thing. (The "Macht Schnel" technique used to get info from German SS troops was an outstanding use of disorientation and psychology)

Extreme sleep deprivation is an insidious form of torture that actually changes the chemistry of the brain and produces permanent personality disorders. Jewish dissidents in the former Soviet Union have had quite a bit to say about sleep deprivation, and would take actual thumb screws over two weeks forced sleeplessness.

re: #9 laZardo

Conservative thought in action.

Why is it that you think it's acceptable to make this kind of hateful characterization?

re: #9 laZardo

Bullshit. That's not conservative, that's sadism masquerading as conservative. Many conservatives I know and respect would see this as the evil it so clearly is.

re: #12 ausador

We shall defeat those that practice terrorism by...becoming terrorists!

Thats frigging brilliant!

///

That seems to be what some "conservatives" (I use the word advisedly) want.

Stare too long into the Abyss...and the Abyss stares back.

re: #14 cliffster

Why is it that you think it's acceptable to make this kind of hateful characterization?

Apart from having a conservative administration that viciously expanded and attempted to justify these techniques over the last eight years? I don't know.

re: #15 Irenicum

Bullshit. That's not conservative, that's sadism masquerading as conservative. Many conservatives I know and respect would see this as the evil it so clearly is.

They're probably in the minority then.

re: #10 JasonA

If anyone deserves war crime considerations, it's John Yoo. A despicable person if ever there was one.

re: #16 celticdragon

That seems to be what some "conservatives" (I use the word advisedly) want.

Stare too long into the Abyss...and the Abyss stares back.

Frederich Nietzsche. Spot on use of the quote.

Further supporting my suspicion that many gung-ho armchair fighters of jihad actually admire Islamist fundamentalist culture more than their own, and believe that jihadis are more manly than they are.

What dumbasses.

re: #19 Irenicum

If anyone deserves war crime considerations, it's John Yoo. A despicable person if ever there was one.

I second that motion. Yoo should be in front of The Hague.

re: #22 celticdragon

I third it.

re: #17 laZardo

Bush was no conservative.
Not on spending. Not on immigration. Not on torture. He was a Republican President that betrayed conservative values in critical ways. Far too many for your broad brush to cover.

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

Frederich Nietzsche. Spot on use of the quote.

Thank you, but my wife has been the one who used it in this context of our use of torture. I got it from her on this very discussion.

re: #18 laZardo

In the current environment I sadly have to say you're probably right. I'm just saying that the term "conservative" is far to ambiguous a word to paint with such a wide brush. There are conservatives who actually understand that we live in a moral universe, and that includes not becoming your enemy to defeat him.

BBL. Watching Star Trek.

re: #17 laZardo

Apart from having a conservative administration that viciously expanded and attempted to justify these techniques over the last eight years? I don't know.

"Gouging his eyes out. Fine. Mutilating his genitals. No problem. Shoving an electric drill up his ass. I'm all for it." You are attaching this with the actions of a US President, and you should be more responsible than that. Shame on you.

re: #24 Rightwingconspirator

Bush was no conservative.
Not on spending. Not on immigration. Not on torture. He was a Republican President that betrayed conservative values in critical ways. Far too many for your broad brush to cover.

Ah, but I didn't just mean the President. I meant his administration, their political party's current ideology (just to repeat what I said about conservatism never sticking to one party over history), and their supporters, many of whom have long since flounced from this site.

re: #13 celticdragon

I'm not advocating torture by any means, but I don't think it's right to compare Jewish Soviet dissidents to suspected Islamic terrorists

re: #19 Irenicum

If anyone deserves war crime considerations, it's John Yoo. A despicable person if ever there was one.

He was told to provide the legal cover for whatever we needed to do, which he then went and did. I don't think morality ever answered into his calculations. And it scares me to say this next part: We do need some amoral people in management positions of an anti-terrorist effort. Its usually best to have someone who can analyze an idea free of any moral baggage. I don't like this conclusion I've come to, and anyone who can decisively refute it will have my thanks.

re: #26 Irenicum

In the current environment I sadly have to say you're probably right. I'm just saying that the term "conservative" is far to ambiguous a word to paint with such a wide brush. There are conservatives who actually understand that we live in a moral universe, and that includes not becoming your enemy to defeat him.

Those so-called 'conservatives' are more aligned toward centrism, or the 'proper' right-wing as calibrated on the generally-accepted political spectrum.

re: #30 arielle

I'm not advocating torture by any means, but I don't think it's right to compare Jewish Soviet dissidents to suspected Islamic terrorists

The same interrogation methods used in either case do not suddenly become something different if the prisoner is sympathetic to you. That is a form of magical thinking best left to the Inquisition and the Malleous Mallificarum.

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Further supporting my suspicion that many gung-ho armchair fighters of jihad actually admire Islamist fundamentalist culture more than their own, and believe that jihadis are more manly than they are.

What dumbasses.

Oww, that one had to hurt...

Spot on, I would say.

re: #32 laZardo

the trick, I think, is that 'conservatism' has shifted so much into the dominionist territory that people that consider themselves conservatives (or haven't made the break yet) easily get offended by descriptions of the current situation.

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Further supporting my suspicion that many gung-ho armchair fighters of jihad actually admire Islamist fundamentalist culture more than their own, and believe that jihadis are more manly than they are.

What dumbasses.

I'm stealing this!

re: #29 laZardo

Okay so he had lots of co conspirators in the betrayal. The flouncers don't matter.

I honestly couldn't care less about branding this Conservative. Going forward I want the law to unambiguously state what is out of bounds. That's what I want.

re: #36 beekiller

I'm stealing this!

It's yours!

re: #33 celticdragon

It has nothing to do with sympathy, and everything to do with one group of people who do not deserve any harsh treatment ie soviet dissidents who have commited a so called crime against a state who grants them no freedom and a group of people who plot to murder innocent men women and children.

re: #37 Rightwingconspirator

Okay so he had lots of co conspirators in the betrayal. The flouncers don't matter.

Even if they voted to keep said co-conspirators in power.

re: #35 windsagio

Perhaps the critics/liberals are not the best source of a definition of conservative.

re: #33 celticdragon

I actually have a copy of the Malleus Malificarum. A fascinating book.

re: #40 arielle

It has nothing to do with sympathy, and everything to do with one group of people who do not deserve any harsh treatment ie soviet dissidents who have commited a so called crime against a state who grants them no freedom and a group of people who plot to murder innocent men women and children.

Irrelevent. The point was about the use of torture.

re: #35 windsagio

the trick, I think, is that 'conservatism' has shifted so much into the dominionist territory that people that consider themselves conservatives (or haven't made the break yet) easily get offended by descriptions of the current situation.

Have you read Barry Goldwater? Do I have to start whipping out Goldwater quotes again?

You're damn straight that Goldwater Conservatives get pissed, and for good reason. They stole our name, hijacked our movement, and now we're not even welcome in the party. You're damn straight it's offensive.

THIS IS NOT CONSERVATISM.

re: #30 arielle

I'm not advocating torture by any means, but I don't think it's right to compare Jewish Soviet dissidents to suspected Islamic terrorists

That's a really important word for me.

re: #43 Irenicum

I actually have a copy of the Malleus Malificarum. A fascinating book.

It'll look nice on the bookshelf beside the Necronomicon. :D

re: #45 Sharmuta

Words change meaning some... and conservatism has changed alot since 1964, whether you like it or not.

The fact that a "Goldwater Conservative" is distinguished from just a "Conservative" in general discussion is telling.

re: #45 Sharmuta

Have you read Barry Goldwater? Do I have to start whipping out Goldwater quotes again?

You're damn straight that Goldwater Conservatives get pissed, and for good reason. They stole our name, hijacked our movement, and now we're not even welcome in the party. You're damn straight it's offensive.

THIS IS NOT CONSERVATISM.

Of course it's not. It's libertarianism. With a lowercase 'l', of course.

re: #47 laZardo

I think a black hole would suddenly occur if I did that! Who needs an atom smasher in France, just put those two books next to each other!

O.M.F.G.
That was seriously posted?
WOW.

I'm more offended by the right wingers who misuse conservatism than I am by liberals who don't know what it is in the first place being confused by it.

re: #29 laZardo

Ah, but I didn't just mean the President. I meant his administration, their political party's current ideology (just to repeat what I said about conservatism never sticking to one party over history), and their supporters, many of whom have long since flounced from this site.

You referred to the "administration of the last 8 years" Are you actually trying to make a case that the Bush administration is responsible for the statements of people who have flounced from this site?

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Right. I agree. And all those awful things the rcm was discussing hot pokers and eye ball gorging, torture. But the people in charge need methods in order to prevent future murdering of said innocent men women and children. And not to equate certain harsh methods with actual torture.

re: #45 Sharmuta

Have you read Barry Goldwater? Do I have to start whipping out Goldwater quotes again?

You're damn straight that Goldwater Conservatives get pissed, and for good reason. They stole our name, hijacked our movement, and now we're not even welcome in the party. You're damn straight it's offensive.

THIS IS NOT CONSERVATISM.

Tell it, Sharm! I wish I could employ Chicago-style voting on my updings for that post!

re: #41 laZardo

See my #42. And-"They" were many millions of voters. Maybe if the Dems had put up a worthwhile alternative it would have been different.

re: #42 Rightwingconspirator

Perhaps the critics/liberals are not the best source of a definition of conservative.

In next year's elections I shudder to think of how many Doug Hoffmans we could see. They'll be labeled as Conservatives. You can say they aren't real Conservatives as much as you want, but those are going to be faces connected with the word.

Hell, I'm starting to think it's you guys who need a new name. If we can go "Progressive" you can do some rebranding too :)

re: #48 windsagio

Words change meaning some... and conservatism has changed alot since 1964, whether you like it or not.

The fact that a "Goldwater Conservative" is distinguished from just a "Conservative" in general discussion is telling.

I know. *sigh*

re: #49 laZardo

Of course it's not. It's libertarianism. With a lowercase 'l', of course.

I'm confused by your downding, but okay.

re: #45 Sharmuta

Thank you Sharmuta. This one does have me annoyed.

re: #40 arielle

It has nothing to do with sympathy, and everything to do with one group of people who do not deserve any harsh treatment ie soviet dissidents who have commited a so called crime against a state who grants them no freedom and a group of people who [my edit: are suspected to] plot to murder innocent men women and children.

No, it goes far beyond "sympathy," it has to do with your ability to dehumanize one group but not the other. Dehumanizing humans is despicable, period, stop looking for excuses.

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

It's yours!

You've been published! (on my lame twitter)

re: #53 cliffster

You referred to the "administration of the last 8 years" Are you actually trying to make a case that the Bush administration is responsible for the statements of people who have flounced from this site?

No, in actuality that's a two-way street. As I've said these people were among the many who willingly voted to keep that administration in power.

This was another one of the class of 2004, by the way.

I`m with the Giraffe. The freak that posted that comment doesn`t represent anyone but himself. Straight up hideous sociopath. Charles must see some amazing sh*t in his inbox.

That post need more downdings...only -17?

Come on people some of you need to quit hoarding your negative karma.

/ ;)

re: #60 goddamnedfrank

Dehumanizing humans is despicable, period, stop looking for excuses.

What if they dehumanize themselves?

/ D:

re: #57 JasonA

In next year's elections I shudder to think of how many Doug Hoffmans we could see. They'll be labeled as Conservatives. You can say they aren't real Conservatives as much as you want, but those are going to be faces connected with the word.

Hell, I'm starting to think it's you guys who need a new name. If we can go "Progressive" you can do some rebranding too :)

Why don't we just rebrand "conservatives" as Regressives, then the RINOs can take "conservative" back. Plus "Regressive" would really fit them better.

re: #54 arielle

Right. I agree. And all those awful things the rcm was discussing hot pokers and eye ball gorging, torture. But the people in charge need methods in order to prevent future murdering of said innocent men women and children. And not to equate certain harsh methods with actual torture.

'Certain harsh methods' in my experience means 'we don't want to call it torture'.

re: #45 Sharmuta

Have you read Barry Goldwater? Do I have to start whipping out Goldwater quotes again?

You're damn straight that Goldwater Conservatives get pissed, and for good reason. They stole our name, hijacked our movement, and now we're not even welcome in the party. You're damn straight it's offensive.

THIS IS NOT CONSERVATISM.

Yes we are, Sharmuta. We get to go vote in primaries the same as any of the bible-thumpers who are very good people but misguided in political areas..

re: #58 Sharmuta

I admit, I'd be annoyed too. Don't know what a solution could be tho' > I guess its a fever we just have to ride out, and hope it doesn't kill the patient.

re: #62 laZardo

Heh, may just be me, but mentioning Bush without a REALLY good reason is always a mistake.

re: #63 Charles

I imagine if you've been gone for a while, the culture shock of reading this site must be brutal.

re: #57 JasonA

Hah! Could be. Could very well be. But why give in to the theft? I'd rather fight for possession of the term. Me and Sharmuta I guess. We'll see.

re: #9 laZardo

Conservative thought in action.

Not all conservatives of course but - hey - had a look on Hot Air, Ace of Spades etc lately? When you consider the mainstreaming of extremism that is taking place on these self-proclaimed conservative blogs and the rest of the media, it is not hard to see where people get such ideas from.

re: #66 laZardo

What if they dehumanize themselves?

/ D:

NO, you cannot torture furries. End of discussion.

re: #67 Sharmuta

Why don't we just rebrand "conservatives" as Regressives, then the RINOs can take "conservative" back. Plus "Regressive" would really fit them better.

Someone's already called dibs on that.

re: #69 cliffster

Yes we are, Sharmuta. We get to go vote in primaries the same as any of the bible-thumpers who are very good people but misguided in political areas..

That's a fair point, but you know they don't want us going.

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

NO, you cannot torture furries. End of discussion.

):

re: #74 laZardo

Someone's already called dibs on that.

Ska is banned. Nobody listens to ska.

LOL!

re: #56 Rightwingconspirator

See my #42. And-"They" were many millions of voters. Maybe if the Dems had put up a worthwhile alternative it would have been different.

Point there. Kerry didn't have the clout that Hillary and Obama had. I think putting up an anti-Vietnam-War vet was more of a protest symbol to cover that then-lack of enthusiasm.

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Further supporting my suspicion that many gung-ho armchair fighters of jihad actually admire Islamist fundamentalist culture more than their own, and believe that jihadis are more manly than they are.

What dumbasses.

Earlier this year I ran into similar rhetoric to which I snarked something to the the effect of, "an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth?" Quickly I was accused of moral relativism -- wrongly I might add. I am always astonished to the similarities of extremist groups and individuals.

re: #72 Jimmah

Not all conservatives of course but - hey - had a look on Hot Air, Ace of Spades etc lately? When you consider the mainstreaming of extremism that is taking place on these self-proclaimed conservative blogs and the rest of the media, it is not hard to see where people get such ideas from.

As has often been the case lately, Jimmah, I wish I could disagree with you and your better half, but I can't. When you're right, you're right. Add to my list of miseries the fact that the party I've supported since I was 14 has turned to slime beneath my feet.

re: #62 laZardo

No, in actuality that's a two-way street. As I've said these people were among the many who willingly voted to keep that administration in power.

No, you started by accusing the Bush administration of going along with the same atrocities that are the subject of this thread. As I said before, that was hateful and irresponsible.

re: #72 Jimmah

The other side yells loud when out of power (Obama et al) and out of money, as in a screwed economy. As fast as the power pendulum shifts so will the hateful rhetoric. Most of us are old enough to have seen a couple cycles of this. The internet is just a far more pervasive media. So the angry few have a disproportionate voice.

In the first Gulf War, Iraqi forces surrendered to us whole battalions at a time, because they knew they'd be treated decent and sent home. We didn't even have to lock them up, we just laid down a rope around a section of desert and said "stand in there, that's your prison for the duration." And they were cooperative about sitting there and waiting. We had zero KIA in that conflict; our only deaths were from one missile that hit a camp near the back lines, and some vehicle accidents.

Ever since Abu Ghraib and Bagram... nobody surrenders to us anymore. They'd rather fight to the death, and that's meant a lot of deaths on our side. And the people we're fighting have had a huge recruitment draw.

I remain convinced that torturing our prisoners has cost more American lives than it's saved.

We must all drag each other forward toward more civilization.

re: #63 Charles

You profile says you are from the class of 2004 too, Charles!

But I know you started back further...

re: #81 cliffster

No, you started by accusing the Bush administration of going along with the same atrocities that are the subject of this thread. As I said before, that was hateful and irresponsible.

My now-notorious #9 simply stated that the depraved comment referred to in the title post was an example of conservative thought in action. I suppose it was only irresponsible in that I didn't elaborate.

It was conservatives that elected their own into office as an administration and endorsed their policies, resulting in the torture policies enacted during those years. That these torture policies proved so effective in their minds only made them cry out for more.

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay no torture. I agree in full. But interrogation is a real necessity. Strong sane interrogation. Keeping them up late or false threats is not water-boarding.

re: #72 Jimmah

Not all conservatives of course but - hey - had a look on Hot Air, Ace of Spades etc lately? When you consider the mainstreaming of extremism that is taking place on these self-proclaimed conservative blogs and the rest of the media, it is not hard to see where people get such ideas from.

I hate to insult anyone, but I detect a lower intellectual level on some of those blogs. I see the lamest arguments made that are roundly cheered by the other posters. They'll spout stories that could be shot down by a simple Google search, or even some degree of education over and over.
At times, I hope to see one person simply correct the more egregious comments, but on the occasion that one does, they are quickly labeled a troll.

re: #84 Ojoe

We must all drag each other forward toward more civilization.

Sadly, it seems so many are determined to pull in the opposite direction.

I like to read LGF because the level of discourse is civilized. I'm a moderate, and I like to hear all kinds of opinions... but so many other sites harbor monsters. So, yeah--- I'm grateful that a troll such as this is not welcome here. There are other places for his ilk.

re: #67 Sharmuta

The term reactionary has been a term that has been thrown at conservatives by the far left, and it never was appropriate. But nowadays, I'd say the term is more appropriate to what we're seeing in modern "conservatism". Therefore I propose that we call this stuff what it actually is, reactionary and radical, and nothing of any reasonable conservatism. That way, I hope, a renewed conservatism can be reborn from the ashes of this bastard child that was birthed by its wedding of theocratic impulses with Nietzschean and Ayn Randian amoralism. But hey, I suspect I'm an idealist. I can hope can't I?

I understand the impulse to deny that this comment represents the right wing in any way.

But unfortunately, it's really, really easy to find similar comments at most right wing blogs these days.

I wish it was true that this guy is speaking only for himself. But it isn't.

When Dr. George Tiller was murdered, comments like this -- and some even worse -- were everywhere on the right wing blogs and news sites. I saw thousands of people expressing fantasies that Tiller was being raped by demons in Hell, for example.

And I saw almost nobody expressing even mild disapproval.

re: #83 sagehen

WHOA! I think that's a poor comparison to make. Iraqis fighting under saddam surrendered- this is true. But those were government soldiers and cannot be compared to an al-qaeda jihadi who is hell bent on 72 raisins. Two very different middle eastern soldiers.

I bet that post would've gotten applause on Free Republic.

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

Okay no torture. I agree in full. But interrogation is a real necessity. Strong sane interrogation. Keeping them up late or false threats is not water-boarding.

I was told of an interesting psychological technique that caused no physical pain to the one being interrogated.

Basically the interrogator threatens that they'll be handed over to Mossad or the Saudis and then sticks them on a plane. That plane actually flies a long circle and then lands back at the same base or the one next to it. They're then greeted by a guy trained to act like said foreign agent.

Works in minutes after landing...

re: #83 sagehen

I would go ask the folks over at Blackfive about your assertion that no one surendurs to us anymore, or ask Mr. Totten, or Michael Yon.

I bet it is not true.

re: #95 laZardo

I like it!

re: #83 sagehen

In the first Gulf War, Iraqi forces surrendered to us whole battalions at a time, because they knew they'd be treated decent and sent home. We didn't even have to lock them up, we just laid down a rope around a section of desert and said "stand in there, that's your prison for the duration." And they were cooperative about sitting there and waiting. We had zero KIA in that conflict; our only deaths were from one missile that hit a camp near the back lines, and some vehicle accidents.

Ever since Abu Ghraib and Bagram... nobody surrenders to us anymore. They'd rather fight to the death, and that's meant a lot of deaths on our side. And the people we're fighting have had a huge recruitment draw.

I remain convinced that torturing our prisoners has cost more American lives than it's saved.

We did have KIAs in the First Gulf War. Mostly in Khafji, during the only Iraqi attack of note. Most of these were the crew of an AC-130 that was still over enemy lines at dawn and was shot down by AAA fire.

re: #95 laZardo

Works for me. I'm fine with that kind of psych out.

re: #83 sagehen

In the first Gulf War, Iraqi forces surrendered to us whole battalions at a time, because they knew they'd be treated decent and sent home. We didn't even have to lock them up, we just laid down a rope around a section of desert and said "stand in there, that's your prison for the duration." And they were cooperative about sitting there and waiting. We had zero KIA in that conflict; our only deaths were from one missile that hit a camp near the back lines, and some vehicle accidents.

Ever since Abu Ghraib and Bagram... nobody surrenders to us anymore. They'd rather fight to the death, and that's meant a lot of deaths on our side. And the people we're fighting have had a huge recruitment draw.

I remain convinced that torturing our prisoners has cost more American lives than it's saved.

You make a good point, even a lie can cause both civilians and solders to chose death over capture. I recall all the Japanese civilians that jumped to their death to avoid capture because they were fed propaganda.

re: #94 JasonA

I bet that post would've gotten applause on Free Republic.

Here its minus 18 and falling. I hope that post ends up second only to the infamous AnneFrance post for downdings.

It's very simple, really. An emotional chord needs to get struck for simple liberties. "Every American should get [XYZ]!!" makes a great soundbite, no matter how unpalatable one might find the fact that every other American will be forced to pay for [XYZ]. The same as the railings against gays and a woman's choice make good soundbites, much as we may disagree at a philosophical level that our liberties should be denied based on a religious belief. Soundbites win, and that's why liberty is losing. Liberty is abstract, and the emotional attachment to it is falling out of style.

re: #92 Charles

I think that, the internet allows "people" to express themselves in fantastic ways. Visions of things they would "like" to do, if ONLY they could get out of the basement of their mothers house.
And this is a prime example, of a hater, locked in the basement.
No skills, no way to DO anything, except type angrily away on a keyboard.

Scary f'ers.

re: #83 sagehen

In the last months of WW2 the soldiers of the Whermacht (sp?) who found themselves in their eastern theater were stripping off their uniforms and running west on foot to surrender to the Americans and the Brits, and not to Ivan.

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Here its minus 18 and falling. I hope that post ends up second only to the infamous AnneFrance post for downdings.

I was about the only person on LGF at the time that didn't downding it, mainly out of pity from the mob mentality of it all. Seeing what's happened with Sarah Palin since then, I don't regret it.

re: #100 avanti

You make a good point, even a lie can cause both civilians and solders to chose death over capture. I recall all the Japanese civilians that jumped to their death to avoid capture because they were fed propaganda.

I don't think comparing a jihadi to a foot soldier in a dictator's army is valid.

Jihadis are not going to surrender. Ever. Well- maybe an occasional chickening out, but for the most part, jihadists committed to their cause will never surrender.

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

As has often been the case lately, Jimmah, I wish I could disagree with you and your better half, but I can't. When you're right, you're right. Add to my list of miseries the fact that the party I've supported since I was 14 has turned to slime beneath my feet.

Well said, DF. For what it's worth, many on the left here in the US felt the same way about their party between 2001 and 2006. So there is always hope, although I think it may be quite a few years before the GOP gets its act together and flushes the idiots and their nonsense.

re: #86 laZardo

My now-notorious #9 simply stated that the depraved comment referred to in the title post was an example of conservative thought in action. I suppose it was only irresponsible in that I didn't elaborate.

It was conservatives that elected their own into office as an administration and endorsed their policies, resulting in the torture policies enacted during those years. That these torture policies proved so effective in their minds only made them cry out for more.

Again, lazardo, I point out that you are suggesting that the Bush administration was in line with this statement - "Gouging his eyes out. Fine. Mutilating his genitals. No problem. Shoving an electric drill up his ass. I'm all for it". This is not true, and this is what you said.

re: #9 laZardo

Conservative thought in action.

This isn't "conservative thought", but a rather sickening perversion of it, that unfortunately has gained a foothold in the Republican Party. Due to, in my opinion, the tolerance (if not outright welcoming) of factions belonging to Dominionists, John Birchers, and even white supremacists. Principled conservatives like William F. Buckley would have absolutely nothing to do with these factions if he were still alive.

re: #92 Charles

It's not just an impulse its real revulsion. My progressive friend and mentor feels about as attached to the extremist environmental terrorists and PETA as I do the jerks over at Hot Air and the Theocons.

re: #92 Charles

I understand the impulse to deny that this comment represents the right wing in any way.

But unfortunately, it's really, really easy to find similar comments at most right wing blogs these days.

I wish it was true that this guy is speaking only for himself. But it isn't.

When Dr. George Tiller was murdered, comments like this -- and some even worse -- were everywhere on the right wing blogs and news sites. I saw thousands of people expressing fantasies that Tiller was being raped by demons in Hell, for example.

And I saw almost nobody expressing even mild disapproval.

That`s true, but you run a much tighter ship than any other blogs I read. It would be nice if other sites would monitor comments and squish people with the Stinky hammer thing but they don`t and probably never will. Your blog is the exception. I read a few blogs and this is the only place worth reading comments. I read other blogs for links only, as many others probably do.

re: #108 cliffster

Again, lazardo, I point out that you are suggesting that the Bush administration was in line with this statement - "Gouging his eyes out. Fine. Mutilating his genitals. No problem. Shoving an electric drill up his ass. I'm all for it". This is not true, and this is what you said.

They were, given their feverish efforts to justify those policies. And that included people that supported that administration (including myself for a time, I admit).

re: #2 Sharmuta

Ugh! That's the kind of shit saddam would do to people, and the Chinese do to people. I would certainly hope our government could do better than that.

NO I am sure the Syrians would never do such things.

re: #107 Jimmah

So, WAAAY OT, but did you get some nice new shoes?
NYC style?

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Normally, I'd get upset if Ludwig said someone had a "North Korean mentality" about interrogation. But not this time. Geeze, what a nut.

Yeah but guys like him and Buchanan make my point pretty clearly. Torture is like pregnant. You either don't do it or you do.

re: #111 humpty dumpty was pushed

That`s true, but you run a much tighter ship than any other blogs I read. It would be nice if other sites would monitor comments and squish people with the Stinky hammer thing but they don`t and probably never will. Your blog is the exception. I read a few blogs and this is the only place worth reading comments. I read other blogs for links only, as many others probably do.

Quite concur. Comments are only non-painful to read when they are moderated. Otherwise, your comment section gets taken over by haters and crazies. They drive out all the sane people who don't want to listen to their vitriol.

re: #112 laZardo

They were, given their feverish efforts to justify those policies. And that included people that supported that administration (including myself for a time, I admit).

So you are saying that under the Bush Administration, eyes were gouged out and genitals were mutilated?

re: #92 Charles

I understand the impulse to deny that this comment represents the right wing in any way.

But unfortunately, it's really, really easy to find similar comments at most right wing blogs these days.

I wish it was true that this guy is speaking only for himself. But it isn't.

When Dr. George Tiller was murdered, comments like this -- and some even worse -- were everywhere on the right wing blogs and news sites. I saw thousands of people expressing fantasies that Tiller was being raped by demons in Hell, for example.

And I saw almost nobody expressing even mild disapproval.

I think you have cornered the rational right wing market on LGF, the only kind that is willing to have a discourse based on reason and not ideology with all parts of the political spectrum.

re: #118 marioworld5

Get help.

Clean up in 118?

re: #118 marioworld5

Thank you kindly for the flounce.
You have now been consigned to the dustbin.
Have a nice day!

re: #118 marioworld5

Reading that reminds me of that scene in Happy Gilmore where the game show host says "We are all now dumber because of this".

re: #92 Charles

But unfortunately, it's really, really easy to find similar comments at most right wing blogs these days.

Indeed, one can't avoid comments like these because a casual perusal of the right-wing hate sites will cause the reader to trip over them. One doesn't have to search.

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah but guys like him and Buchanan make my point pretty clearly. Torture is like pregnant. You either don't do it or you do.

Quite Concur. We may sometimes disagree about what torture exactly means at times, but we both agree that this post was way over the line. And if you're right that if you torture at all, you're a torturer. Some lines cannot be uncrossed.

re: #104 Ojoe

In the last months of WW2 the soldiers of the Whermacht (sp?) who found themselves in their eastern theater were stripping off their uniforms and running west on foot to surrender to the Americans and the Brits, and not to Ivan.

We got a bunch of rocket scientists out of that, didn't we?

re: #117 cliffster

So you are saying that under the Bush Administration, eyes were gouged out and genitals were mutilated?

They would have been if the interrogators hadn't managed to cling to their own principles to keep them from doing so.

re: #118 marioworld5

I agree with you. It is indeed pathetic that you are writing this in the first place.

re: #118 marioworld5

Yes, it is equally pathetic that I am writing this in the first place.

The only reasonable/well thought-out line in that post.

re: #128 cliffster

I agree with you. It is indeed pathetic that you are writing this in the first place.

Beat me by a half-second. :)

Hell hath no fury like a jilted wingnut.

re: #118 marioworld5

Flounce!

I'll go heat up the grill.

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

So, WAAAY OT, but did you get some nice new shoes?
NYC style?

Yes, thanks - got some great winter boots! Making full use of them in the icy New York weather (-16 C with windchill today). Also had a romantic visit to the diamond district today. Iceweasel is sitting here beside me now admiring her new ring :)

Darn it I lost my "pffffft" mp3.

re: #126 sagehen

Yes, and aerodynamicists, Von Karhman included.
And the guy who originated the delta wing I believe.

I'm probably not spelling Von K's name right.

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

We'll have to try some of KT's bread with this one. Troll sandwich, anyone?

/with arugula and dijon, of course....

Another primitive and debased criminal mind bites the dust.

So how many people hit the report button with the downding?

I have yet to see one instance where it has been shown that torture actually produced timely and actionable intelligence. We have been given several instances where we were given bad or out of date information though. So far the only proof I have that torture did anything positive for us at all is Dick Cheney saying "trust me" that it prevented attacks or led to arrests.

Sorry Dick, but I just don't find you trustworthy.

re: #139 ausador

I have yet to see one instance where it has been shown that torture actually produced timely and actionable intelligence. We have been given several instances where we were given bad or out of date information though. So far the only proof I have that torture did anything positive for us at all is Dick Cheney saying "trust me" that it prevented attacks or led to arrests.

Sorry Dick, but I just don't find you trustworthy.

Really? Because you can find those stories in the LGF archives.

re: #133 Jimmah

Well, you're not crying over the diamond district visit, so THAT's good.
Congrats on nice new shoes.
NOTHING worse than bad shoes.
Get some good socks too!

Drag Ice to Century 21, I think they still have a store.
BEST BEST BEST NYC discounter.
By far.

LOL @ #118. Thanks for the input. Gawd, that sounded desperate.

re: #136 freetoken

We'll have to try some of KT's bread with this one. Troll sandwich, anyone?

/with arugula and dijon, of course...

I'll have some of the bread, but I'd like to melt some good cheddar on it and then add the sliced Troll Buttocks. ;)

re: #106 Sharmuta

I don't think comparing a jihadi to a foot soldier in a dictator's army is valid.

Jihadis are not going to surrender. Ever. Well- maybe an occasional chickening out, but for the most part, jihadists committed to their cause will never surrender.

But there's only just so many committed jihadis for religious reasons; how many fighting on their side were fence-sitters who only got involved because they were horrified by our actions?

On Sept 12, 2001 our military recruiting stations had lines around the block of people who'd never considered joining before; Al Qaeda had a similar inundation of recruits when word of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo broke.

I had a feeling this might lure some more wackos out of hiding.

re: #135 Ojoe

Yes, and aerodynamicists, Von Karhman included.
And the guy who originated the delta wing I believe.

I'm probably not spelling Von K's name right.

Alexander Lippisch, who designed delta wings and this one weird rocket righter plane whose 1/72 scale model I assembled one fine morning in October.

re: #139 ausador

See, that's the beauty. They can say that the torture prevented attacks but that any information is, of course, classified. Evidence, schmevidence.

That way they can never be wrong.

re: #127 laZardo

They would have been if the interrogators hadn't managed to cling to their own principles to keep them from doing so.

C'mon, man.

re: #138 Rightwingconspirator

So how many people hit the report button with the downding?

Three.

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

Okay no torture. I agree in full. But interrogation is a real necessity. Strong sane interrogation. Keeping them up late or false threats is not water-boarding.

False threats destroy trust and debase the interrogator making them. Trust is an essential element in an interrogator / prisoner relationship. In the real world destroying that trust yields an immediate and inherent loss of confidence in any resulting intel. Also, "keeping them up late" is a euphemism for sleep deprivation, which is torture.

www.washingtonpost.com...]>When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.

Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. Across the river, President Bush defended his administration's methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects during an Oval Office appearance.

WaPo: How a Detainee Became an Asset

re: #145 Charles

Still more shining examples of why you had to institute registration in 2004. Go class of 2004! (Not that there aren't other wingnuts form other classes...)

re: #149 Charles

Three.

Well, shit. Next time cliffster will make it four.

re: #2 Sharmuta

Ugh! That's the kind of shit saddam would do to people, and the Chinese do to people. I would certainly hope our government could do better than that.

And I'm hoping that was just a bad parody post. If that was real, then that person is a very sick, twisted individual who should really consider therapy and medication.

Night folks from a freezing but very happy NYC!

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Sliced troll buttocks?

Ew.

re: #148 cliffster

C'mon, man.

Well, it's why we haven't got any stories of mutilation during torture now, isn't it.

Little Yellow Spider

re: #152 Floral Giraffe

Still more shining examples of why you had to institute registration in 2004. Go class of 2004! (Not that there aren't other wingnuts form other classes...)

A large percentage of the class of 2004 is now posting comments like that at stalker blogs, and obsessively hating me. Which is always fun.

re: #145 Charles

I had a feeling this might lure some more wackos out of hiding.

They've caught onto it over at the Stalker Blog. Its the usual nasty troll frenzy that happens whenever you point out the glaring moral faults of some people who call themselves conservatives. With disgustingly predictability, the posters there are justifying their being banned by expressing support for rcm.

With some religious fanatics I bet you will never get any information no matter what.

Good night all.

Mutilating his genitals.

For these folks, I wonder if they ever sit down and wonder what it is we are fighting for. It is not just security, but the honor, yes honor, of being more honorable than those who wish to harm us.

I can give the "if we lower ourselves to their tactics we are no better" but I know that view has been expressed here many times.

re: #145 Charles

Seriously. It's like you have the sekrit word of the day that sends them into their deranged tizzy and they can't help but fly too close to the bug light and....ZAPP! (I must say I do enjoy it to an inappropriate level!)

re: #159 Charles

Well, if it entertains you, it must be good.
I find a LOT of this, very scary.
Do what you need to do, to stay safe.
Please?

re: #1 Alouette

There are interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation and disorientation that produce much better and reliable results than burning off someone's testicles with a red hot poker.

Wow, there better than than burning off someone's testicles with a red hot poker!

re: #159 Charles

How much of 2004 is left here?

Yes I already said goodnight.

But it is hard to leave here sometimes.

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

Good cop bad cop is torture? Leaving the light on or really long sessions at the tape recorder is torture? Losing me there. A combination of carrot and stick is well regarded in terms on prisoner interviews. Utter sleep deprivation as in days on end would be torture, but that is not what I actually meant.

Remember the caterpillar story about the Jihadi that was afraid of bugs? That crossed the line. Barely.

re: #155 Jimmah

Century 21. Down by the Winter Garden. Go there, shopping heaven.
You get to shop. Ice got that ring, thing!

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. We may sometimes disagree about what torture exactly means at times, but we both agree that this post was way over the line. And if you're right that if you torture at all, you're a torturer. Some lines cannot be uncrossed.

You just reminded me of a joke.. an old joke that I think fits the torture debate quite well.

A very wealthy man was at a party where he saw a beautiful young woman. He went up to her and asked if she ould sleep with him for $100,000.

She was surprised, but after thinking it over for a moment said yes.

He then said, "well I have $25 on me, will that do?"

She became offended.

"What kind of girl do you think I am?!?!"

To which he replied:

"We already established that. We are just haggling over price."

re: #156 erraticsphinx

Sliced troll buttocks?

Ew.

It's actually quite good when the troll kept in good shape via regular frenzies. Those sorts of Game Trolls are getting hard to find though, so I'm going to try frying a Sleeper Troll in the near future.

///

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

You just reminded me of a joke.. an old joke that I think fits the torture debate quite well.

A very wealthy man was at a party where he saw a beautiful young woman. He went up to her and asked if she would sleep with him for $100,000.

She was surprised, but after thinking it over for a moment said yes.

He then said, "well I have $25 on me, will that do?"

She became offended.

"What kind of girl do you think I am?!?!"

To which he replied:

"We already established that. We are just haggling over price."

I've often heard that one told as a Winston Churchill joke. Either way, I love it. upding.

re: #158 Killgore Trout

HAH!
You LIKE this one a lot.
Or maybe it's the snow?
You've posted it before.
I KNOW you have, I've watched it twice now.
It must be an Oregon thing....

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

They've caught onto it over at the Stalker Blog. Its the usual nasty troll frenzy that happens whenever you point out the glaring moral faults of some people who call themselves conservatives. With disgustingly predictability, the posters there are justifying their being banned by expressing support for rcm.

I like to chuckle at the threads where they get all excited when we have a good left/right discussion going. They think that such discussions will produce a flounce from a long time "true" conservative on here. I'm sure it does not occur to them that our conservatives would rather shove a wet noodle up a wild tigers ass in a phone bouth that post on their cesspool.

The only times I might be able to look the other way on torture is if it is with the following conditions in mind:

1. A strong indication that there is an imminent attack.
2. Time is a factor.
3. Said person is likely to have information that could prevent the attack.
4. The methods are designed to obtain information and not simply to live out some revenge fantasy.
5. The person, administration, agency, whoever, that is authorizing it is prepared to accept responsibility.

At this point, it would feel more like an expansion of self-defense. Reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm to yourself or another, use of force only so far as reasonably calculated to prevent the harm, accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

6. Keifer Sutherland is on the case and there is only a few minutes left in the show.

re: #172 Floral Giraffe

Snowing here made me think of it again. Good hippie music.

re: #174 Teh Flowah

Couldn't have said it better myself. Upding.

From the FoxNation thread "What? Nigerian Suspect Given Lawyers, Civilian Trial, Constitutional Rights":

Not a Pinko
Holder the bigot strikes again

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 11:32 PM

-

tinlizy
This is outrageous. TIme for a militia in our communities to protect us because these fooktards won't. They are too worried about the poor terrorists. Oops. I mean the pyrotechnic engineers.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 10:51 PM

-

j9
Must be a FOB. (friend of Barack).

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 10:40 PM

-

Recon
We still dont know who this guy was that convinced security to let the bomber on the plane without a passport.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 10:30 PM

RealAmerican
Probably was Obama. I heard he bought his ticket, packed his underpants for him, and gave him a big wet smooch on the cheek. ;)

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 11:04 PM

-

boverst7420
It wasnt handled right. We could have gotten lots of information from him, but not now he has all o four American rights and will lawyer up. We will get no info. from him. Thanks to the poor handling of the situation.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 09:50 PM

-

Statesman/Patriot
When Obama is tried and convicted of treason (for aiding and abetting the enemy) by a military tribunal, I wonder if they’ll televise his execution. I hope so! Wouldn’t you like to watch? Do they have to use lethal injection, or can they still lynch, I mean hang, the traitor? A hanging would be a better photo-op. Couldn’t they just use a tree on the White House lawn? That would certainly be poetic justice, wouldn’t you agree?

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 09:39 PM

-

Mac45
America didn't you know that the Terrorists are in the whitehouse. This government will protect the people that want to destroy us. Obama and his adminstration stands behine the Terrorists not Americans. The things that Obama has done in his last year should be proof enough that he should be impeached. We have a Mosleum in the Whitehouse. They want to protect the enemies not us.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 08:52 PM

-

keefir1
I say water board the guy...and pour some really hot H20 on his crotch!!

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 08:22 PM

-

leebob
Don't worry about his conviction, Holder will be sure he gets the best, after all he is black and a muslim. Have to protect the bros. After he is realeased he will be on the streets of Detroit.

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 at 07:32 PM

-

And that is only from the last couple of pages...

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

I've often heard that one told as a Winston Churchill joke. Either way, I love it. upding.

I think the Churchill joke is where he was at a party, and a woman comes up to him. "You're drunk!" she says. "That may be true," he says, "but you're ugly. And I'll be sober in the morning"

re: #175 Olsonist

6. Keifer Sutherland is on the case and there is only a few minutes left in the show.

6b. Which guarantees that the attack will be delayed another week as the show will end right before results are produced.

re: #175 Olsonist

6. Keifer Sutherland is on the case and there is only a few minutes left in the show.

I do love 24, though. Its a great show, and I'm looking forward to the new season next month.

re: #178 freetoken

It usually doesn't take long on the Fox Forum to find stuff like that.

re: #95 laZardo

I was told of an interesting psychological technique that caused no physical pain to the one being interrogated.

Basically the interrogator threatens that they'll be handed over to Mossad or the Saudis and then sticks them on a plane. That plane actually flies a long circle and then lands back at the same base or the one next to it. They're then greeted by a guy trained to act like said foreign agent.

Works in minutes after landing...

Yes. It is an effective form of trickery that is not at all forbidden by any treaty...and it works.

re: #178 freetoken

From the FoxNation thread "What? Nigerian Suspect Given Lawyers, Civilian Trial, Constitutional Rights":

-

And that is only from the last couple of pages...

What a bunch of idiots. All I can say to these morons is get an education. Hermann Goering even had a defense attorney during the Nuremberg trials.

re: #178 freetoken

From the FoxNation thread "What? Nigerian Suspect Given Lawyers, Civilian Trial, Constitutional Rights":

The headline is giving me a headache. He was caught on American soil, so yes, he gets a civilian trial. I guess I shouldn't be surprised anything related to Fox would be so stupid.

re: #174 Teh Flowah

The only times I might be able to look the other way on torture is if it is with the following conditions in mind:

1. A strong indication that there is an imminent attack.
2. Time is a factor.
3. Said person is likely to have information that could prevent the attack.
4. The methods are designed to obtain information and not simply to live out some revenge fantasy.
5. The person, administration, agency, whoever, that is authorizing it is prepared to accept responsibility.

At this point, it would feel more like an expansion of self-defense. Reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm to yourself or another, use of force only so far as reasonably calculated to prevent the harm, accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

In that rare scenario, I hate to admit I agree. having said that, I'd never agree for our government to spell out permission to so act. It's a bit like shooting guy running away after raping your daughter. Technically, it's illegal, but you are unlikely to see jail time.

re: #178 freetoken

Those comments sound like talk you'd hear at a Klan meeting. Post after post of violent, racist fantasies. Bad, Evil, Sick.

re: #174 Teh Flowah

The only times I might be able to look the other way on torture is if it is with the following conditions in mind:

1. A strong indication that there is an imminent attack.
2. Time is a factor.
3. Said person is likely to have information that could prevent the attack.
4. The methods are designed to obtain information and not simply to live out some revenge fantasy.
5. The person, administration, agency, whoever, that is authorizing it is prepared to accept responsibility.

At this point, it would feel more like an expansion of self-defense. Reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm to yourself or another, use of force only so far as reasonably calculated to prevent the harm, accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Basically, the ticking bomb scenario that Dershowitz et al were so keen on after 9/11. I agree, although I disagreed with the legal basis Dershowitz wanted to give it.

Basically, if you're ready and willing to explain to a court what you did and why you did it, and accept that your accomplishments may not be enough reason for you to keep your badge, you have my blessing to dangle the suspect out a tenth-floor window.

But screw the crap about how you can get a 'torture warrant' in a case like this. Yes, Manhattan will blow up in an hour if you don't get the information, so we call up Judge Lynch (because he never sleeps), and lay out the case, and get the paperwork...uh huh. Sure we do.

Front page of Fox News....."This is all Obama's fault X 100"....and also, a miraculous birth!

A lovely post that was to read... Not! Had to whip out the down-ding for only the second time since I've joined LGF. What a crappy way to wind up one's birthday....

re: #178 freetoken

Dude, try not to spend too much time there. It's really hard to get vomit out of a keyboard.

re: #95 laZardo

I was told of an interesting psychological technique that caused no physical pain to the one being interrogated.

Basically the interrogator threatens that they'll be handed over to Mossad or the Saudis and then sticks them on a plane. That plane actually flies a long circle and then lands back at the same base or the one next to it. They're then greeted by a guy trained to act like said foreign agent.

Works in minutes after landing...

I'm fairly sure that this is not allowed. Threat of imminent harm is considered illegal. The United States pulled the same stunt to find Rudolf Höss. Look him up. The Allies, unable to locate Rudolf Höss himself, found his wife, implied that her sons would be sent to Russia (GUESS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM THERE...) if she did not tell them where her husband was. She gave him up.

That was not legal. You cannot threaten such things.

Gonna try to respond to this before the flouncer goes bye-bye.

re: #118 marioworld5

I think I echo the thoughts of a lot of people here when I say to your three points, no, NO, and AWW HELL NO.

As someone who likely disagrees more than agrees with a significant number of topics with others here, I can unequivocally say that Charles (and LGF, by extension) is *not* "wingnut" by any stretch of the imagination. What I see instead, is the attempt of putting forward a group of viewpoints in a rational, thoughtful manner, and one that does not tolerate, out of a lack of a better word, stupidity. As I said that I do disagree with what is said on many occasions, I can also say that I respect the hell out of the way that it is said - differences on principle are a damned good thing. Spouting off trying to agitate anyone close enough to hear your voice, on the other hand, is not only counterproductive, but diminishes any argument that you are trying to make.

Anyone who thinks that any good whatsoever can come from torturing others who we consider enemies is in serious need of a morality (and reality) check. This is a "slippery slope" that we must not step on, period.

re: #182 Soap_Man

Yup, that was my point. I did not have to search for those quotes, I just opened a thread and started to copy and paste.

Charles is quite correct - the right wing blogs are full of that crap.

That the threads that talk about impeaching, or even hanging, President Obama and torturing the Nigerian suspect are also full of racist comments is not a coincidence.

Repeat - not a coincidence.

re: #184 Gus 802

What a bunch of idiots. All I can say to these morons is get an education. Hermann Goering even had a defense attorney during the Nuremberg trials.

I'm sure the wingnuts disapprove of that. Or, hell, maybe they feel he should have gotten off. I can't keep track of who they like these days.

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

I hate Keifer Sutherland. Can't stand him. Freaking one dimensional. I'm a huge fan of The Lost Boys except for the scenes he's in.

re: #175 Olsonist

6. Keifer Sutherland is on the case and there is only a few minutes left in the show.

Except that such things do actually occur in real life. Ask the Israelis.

Just because it happens on a TV show with regularity doesn't mean it doesn't also happen in real life occasionally.

re: #190 Surabaya Stew

Hey Happy Birthday! Never let a flounce get you down.

All of us are united in condemning this absurd torture fantasy of the banned poster.

It is important to differentiate the medieval atrocities that poster suggested was torture, from the very real debate over enhanced interrogation techniques. Which if they qualify as torture at all, are certainly not on the level of “Gouging his eyes out” nor are they used as punishment.

Waterboarding and other enhanced integration techniques are not torture. Gouging eyeball out is. The distinction is clear. It is harsh, it is cruel, it is unpleasant. If it were done solely as punishment it would be inhumane. But it is not torture in the sense the banned poster was speaking.
This week, on the holy day of Christmas, a psycho tried to commit an atrocity by blowing up an aircraft loaded with passengers. If he succeeded, hundreds would have died an horrendous death as bodies rained from the sky.

If the terrorist were to be concealing information that could help prevent additional attacks by his masters, then yes, enhanced interrogation techniques should be used as necessary to obtain that information. Call it mild torture or whatever, but do what is necessary, as humanely as possible, to gain the information that could prevent a mass murder.

So yes, in extreme circumstances use extreme measures. Waterboarding and similar such enhanced interrogation techniques must remain in the American military arsenal for dealing with foreign terrorists. However the rules governing its use must be strict and great care should be taken to never engage in real torture.

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure the wingnuts disapprove of that. Or, hell, maybe they feel he should have gotten off. I can't keep track of who they like these days.

That's so true. You can't tell any more. It's disturbing to see such widespread disrespect for the rule of law.

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

You try to point out that the actual professionals always say that torture is counter-productive and almost never gives good intel...and the Walter Mitty armchair sadists don't miss a beat. It works for them because they like the woody they get when they think of hot pokers up some guys ass.

Sick, but horribly true, I think.

re: #176 Killgore Trout

It IS very good hippie music. I was just yanking at your chain.
Here's hippie music from my hometown.
(We have the "plectrum dulcomer company" up in the Canyon. LOL!)

re: #199 Bagua

Waterboarding is torture.

re: #197 Teh Flowah

Just because the Israelis do it doesn't make it right.
Just because the Israelis do it doesn't mean it works.

re: #199 Bagua

We killed Japanese officers for waterboarding as a war crime after WW2. We already defined it as torture in our own military courts.

re: #199 Bagua

All of us are united in condemning this absurd torture fantasy...

Um... no, not all. In this thread we've had one flounce over this already.

re: #194 freetoken

Yup, that was my point. I did not have to search for those quotes, I just opened a thread and started to copy and paste.

Charles is quite correct - the right wing blogs are full of that crap.

That the threads that talk about impeaching, or even hanging, President Obama and torturing the Nigerian suspect are also full of racist comments is not a coincidence.

Repeat - not a coincidence.

This was actually a subject that came up in my Bloggingheads session with Conn Carroll. He categorically denied that there was any racist element to the Obama hatred we see everywhere on the right wing, and I argued strongly that there was a sizable element of racism behind much of it -- especially the more extreme manifestations like Birtherism.

Then he tried to say I was calling all criticism of Obama racism, which of course I wasn't. It was a depressingly familiar kind of obscurantism.

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

I'm sorry, but 24 is fascism lite. That show has popularized torture as a technique of statecraft so much that West Point has specifically asked Fox TV to stop the torture scenes, since so many of the new students at West Point are coming in thinking that this is official US policy. Yes. They are coming in actually thinking this. The instructors are constantly having to tell their students that no, 24 does not accurately represent governmental policy. So, needless to say, I'm not such a big fan of 24. Shows like that actually hurt our national interests.

re: #201 celticdragon

You try to point out that the actual professionals always say that torture is counter-productive and almost never gives good intel...and the Walter Mitty armchair sadists don't miss a beat. It works for them because they like the woody they get when they think of hot pokers up some guys ass.

Sick, but horribly true, I think.

And if one more person sites Jack Bauer, in all apparent seriousness, as an argument for the use of torture, I may scream.

"You're on the naughty list, Jack..."

re: #196 Olsonist

I hate Keifer Sutherland. Can't stand him. Freaking one dimensional. I'm a huge fan of The Lost Boys except for the scenes he's in.

If Kiefer Sutherland's only achievement in life were to look like Keifer Sutherland and speak with Kiefer Sutherland's voice... that would be enough for me. Same for George Clooney.

If they have any skills or talents, that's a nice bonus. But not strictly necessary.

re: #206 freetoken

Um... no, not all. In this thread we've had one flounce over this already.

I've also received two hate mails about this post already.

re: #183 celticdragon

And interesting in the case of the Mossad that it works because we're not a bunch of uncivilized knuckle-draggers over here in Israel even though we're dealing with as nasty a bunch of terrorists as you'd ever want to see. The Mossad also is constrained by rules and principles though granted not the US ones, certainly not those of our neighbors.

re: #202 Floral Giraffe

BAH!
Dulcimer
company.

My spelling sucks.

re: #206 freetoken

Um... no, not all. In this thread we've had one flounce over this already.

All of those who are still with us condemn this absurd torture fantasy...

"Say! This decimation thing isn't that bad!"

re: #199 Bagua

Waterboarding and other enhanced integration techniques are not torture. Gouging eyeball out is. The distinction is clear. It is harsh, it is cruel, it is unpleasant. If it were done solely as punishment it would be inhumane. But it is not torture in the sense the banned poster was speaking.
This week, on the holy day of Christmas, a psycho tried to commit an atrocity by blowing up an aircraft loaded with passengers. If he succeeded, hundreds would have died an horrendous death as bodies rained from the sky.

No, waterboarding is pretty much torture. International accords and treaties agree on that. Individually, people will disagree on what constitutes torture, but as nations, it's pretty clear.

re: #204 Olsonist

Just because the Israelis do it doesn't make it right.
Just because the Israelis do it doesn't mean it works.

L2Read?

I brought up the Israelis because they do face the situation, not to justify it. Your reference to 24 implies that you think the situation NEVER comes up. It does. Try again.

re: #207 Charles

This was actually a subject that came up in my Bloggingheads session with Conn Carroll. He categorically denied that there was any racist element to the Obama hatred we see everywhere on the right wing, and I argued strongly that there was a sizable element of racism behind much of it -- especially the more extreme manifestations like Birtherism.

Then he tried to say I was calling all criticism of Obama racism, which of course I wasn't. It was a depressingly familiar kind of obscurantism.

Why am I not surprised a Heritage Foundation fellow would have such a position? Birchers must pay well.

re: #211 Charles

I've also received two hate mails about this post already.

Any potential rotating title quotes?

re: #208 Irenicum

I'm sorry, but 24 is fascism lite. That show has popularized torture as a technique of statecraft so much that West Point has specifically asked Fox TV to stop the torture scenes, since so many of the new students at West Point are coming in thinking that this is official US policy. Yes. They are coming in actually thinking this. The instructors are constantly having to tell their students that no, 24 does not accurately represent governmental policy. So, needless to say, I'm not such a big fan of 24. Shows like that actually hurt our national interests.

God. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the cadets get the "24 is not U.S. Policy" speech.

re: #194 freetoken

They don't even bother hiding the racism anymore. (I mean LYNCHING!?!) Not saying that all posting on Fox Forum are racists, but those who are can willingly post the bile and feel comfortable that they will receive much more support than criticism.

re: #208 Irenicum

24 is definitely Facist-lite if you're already predisposed to torture fantasies.
A lot of people (like me) know that it's just entertainment.
The West Point thing is disturbing though.

Donald Sutherland is HOT.
Keifer, not so much.
Regardless of the age differences.

So there.

re: #208 Irenicum

I'm sorry, but 24 is fascism lite. That show has popularized torture as a technique of statecraft so much that West Point has specifically asked Fox TV to stop the torture scenes, since so many of the new students at West Point are coming in thinking that this is official US policy. Yes. They are coming in actually thinking this. The instructors are constantly having to tell their students that no, 24 does not accurately represent governmental policy. So, needless to say, I'm not such a big fan of 24. Shows like that actually hurt our national interests.

I stopped watching it when it became predictable.

I want to write about the will not to believe.

We flew people to Syria to be tortured.

Do any of you honestly think that the Syrians are above doing the sorts of things in that post? Do you think the Syrians, or our friends the Saudis are above using electrics and power tools?

Do you realize that when you say well we wouldn't do that, well of course we did? Just because we had our good friends the Syrians do such things for us does not mean we are exonerated.

Do you see my point?

Do you see now why I have been so furious at those who like to make excuses for the behavior of the last administration?

And what about water boarding?

Ask Christopher Hitchens if that is terrible torture. Of course it is.

No.

We can not have this done in our name. It is the tragedy of America in these times that somehow people have learned to be blind to the realities of this. It is a deeper tragedy that so many of us gave into fear and found ways to not see the truth.

It is of course ironic that torture really does not work. Again. If it did, militaries would not apologize for it or ban it. War is hell. If it was to our benefit to torture from an intelligence standpoint we would do it.

And that is really the point. You can't be the good guys if you stop being the good guys.

Then there is the main point that torture does not work.

If you torture either:

1. He would rather die then tell you.

2. You hurt him so badly that he tells you what you think you want to hear. In other words, he lies.

The big elephant in the room that no one on the pro torture side ever seems to acknowledge is that it does not work.

But, it is not. Only those who are truly sick want it to happen.

It disgraces us as a nation. It stains our honor. It saps our own will to believe we are in the right. It ironically strengthens our enemies by making us evil in the eyes of the world.

re: #222 Sharmuta

Kiefer Sutherland will always be the bully from "Stand by Me" to me.

re: #199 Bagua

Waterboarding and other enhanced integration techniques are not torture.

Bullshit. Ask Christopher Hitchens if that is true. Ask MacArthur.

It is vile mealy views like that that destroy our honor as a nation.

re: #205 Rightwingconspirator

We killed Japanese officers for waterboarding as a war crime after WW2. We already defined it as torture in our own military courts.

Don't let facts like that get in the way of a fantasy to escape guilt.

re: #208 Irenicum

I'm sorry, but 24 is fascism lite. That show has popularized torture as a technique of statecraft so much that West Point has specifically asked Fox TV to stop the torture scenes, since so many of the new students at West Point are coming in thinking that this is official US policy. Yes. They are coming in actually thinking this. The instructors are constantly having to tell their students that no, 24 does not accurately represent governmental policy. So, needless to say, I'm not such a big fan of 24. Shows like that actually hurt our national interests.

Ever since 24 I always thought of the movie Phone Booth as "the one where Jack Bauer snaps and kills everyone."

re: #222 Sharmuta

I stopped watching it when it became predictable.

I never watched it, besides a few minutes here and there. But I know the plot of every season already.

1) A bomb is about to go off.
2) Jack Bauer threatens to rip out the eyes of the guy who knows where the bomb is.
3) Guy tells him.
4) World is saved.

re: #151 Sharmuta

WaPo: How a Detainee Became an Asset

Uhh...so you call this actionable intelligence...

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

Sounds more like he was having fun leading the intelligence community around by the nose with lectures on obvious subject matter. Which by the way is basically what the Inspector Generals report said, that they actually got nothing of any signifigance out of him via the "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

I think I'll be believe the I.G. report over a couple of "unnamed sources" to the Washington Post.

re: #223 LudwigVanQuixote

The big elephant in the room that no one on the pro torture side ever seems to acknowledge is that it does not work.

But, it is not. Only those who are truly sick want it to happen.

It's worked. Especially under the broader definition of what is "torture" that is used by the international community. For example, Rudolf Höss, who I already brought up. That is a threat of harm made against family members, explicitly forbidden by international treaties against torture.

And yet, it worked. Of course it works. And we will never know the true extent of torture's effectiveness because we will never conduct a "study" on it. So all we have to go on are anecdotes. And anecdotally, it has been shown to work at least sometimes.

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

Hey Happy Birthday! Never let a flounce get you down.

Thanks, RWC! You're quite right about the flounce, I shall return to letting the fact that Tiger Woods is exactly one day younger than me get me down instead....

:-D

re: #212 2senseplain

And interesting in the case of the Mossad that it works because we're not a bunch of uncivilized knuckle-draggers over here in Israel even though we're dealing with as nasty a bunch of terrorists as you'd ever want to see. The Mossad also is constrained by rules and principles though granted not the US ones, certainly not those of our neighbors.

Ah, yes. It works because you say so.

Palestinian hangings (also known as strappado).

Beatings.

Threats that you will have their kids gang raped to death.

I imagine that you will get the actual, useful truth from time to time, and even in a useful time frame. Of course, you also get the truth mixed in with whatever the prisoner thinks he wants you to hear...since his goal is to make you stop hurting him rather than help you.

I won't even get into whether the morality of this makes your cause worthwhile to begin with.

I have been a supporter of Israel my entire life. The fact that her defenders feel they must defile a proud nation in this fashion sickens me.

re: #208 Irenicum

I'm sorry, but 24 is fascism lite. That show has popularized torture as a technique of statecraft so much that West Point has specifically asked Fox TV to stop the torture scenes, since so many of the new students at West Point are coming in thinking that this is official US policy. Yes. They are coming in actually thinking this. The instructors are constantly having to tell their students that no, 24 does not accurately represent governmental policy. So, needless to say, I'm not such a big fan of 24. Shows like that actually hurt our national interests.

That's the biggest difference between fantasy and reality. What many of these keyboard anti-Jihadists could never accept is that the US government, the CIA, and the US military is far more temperate than whatever hallucinatory fantasies they can conjure. I'm sure we're also dealing with a lot of people that still hold some strange idea that "war is fun."

re: #227 laZardo

Ever since 24 I always thought of the movie Phone Booth as "the one where Jack Bauer snaps and kills everyone."

Except that the antagonist in Phone Booth doesn't truly snap. He has his (somewhat warped) moral code, and he holds to it. And he does spare Colin Farrel's character in the end. Just my movie analysis, take it as you will.

re: #230 Teh Flowah

It's worked. Especially under the broader definition of what is "torture" that is used by the international community. For example, Rudolf Höss, who I already brought up. That is a threat of harm made against family members, explicitly forbidden by international treaties against torture.

And yet, it worked. Of course it works. And we will never know the true extent of torture's effectiveness because we will never conduct a "study" on it. So all we have to go on are anecdotes. And anecdotally, it has been shown to work at least sometimes.

So you would like to believe. And yet if you look at the debreifers and interrogators of the second world war, they will tell you that we got loads of information by treating prisoners kindly.

Use common sense. If you are in pain, you are going to tell them what you think they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

It is nonsense to believe it works in general or reliably. And again, if it did, we would not have condemned its use so roundly.

re: #229 ausador

Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad.

"Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

Yes- I call that actionable intelligence that saved lives.

I don't want to get into the morality debate with you- perhaps another time, because I really do have a headache and should get going, but I bring this up to point out the intelligence we did get.

By the way, I'm going to be starting to write for True/Slant, in addition to LGF. I'll be posting many of the same articles over there, but I'll also be writing pieces just for them.

LGF will remain my prime focus, but I'm looking forward to expanding the old horizons a bit.

re: #237 Charles

By the way, I'm going to be starting to write for True/Slant, in addition to LGF. I'll be posting many of the same articles over there, but I'll also be writing pieces just for them.

LGF will remain my prime focus, but I'm looking forward to expanding the old horizons a bit.

Congratulations and good luck!

re: #206 freetoken

Um... no, not all. In this thread we've had one flounce over this already.

Ooops, thanks for the correction. All of us except the flouncer.

re: #235 LudwigVanQuixote

"If you torture this guy enough he'll tell you who started the God damn Chicago Fire, but that doesn't make it fucking so!"- Nice Guy Eddie, Reservoir Dogs

re: #223 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF: I would prefer this version be read, and if possible the other post removed. This says it more clearly.

I want to write about the will not to believe.

We flew people to Syria to be tortured.

Do any of you honestly think that the Syrians are above doing the sorts of things in that post? Do you think the Syrians, or our friends the Saudis are above using electrics and power tools?

Do you realize that when you say well we wouldn't do that, well of course we did? Just because we had our good friends the Syrians do such things for us does not mean we are exonerated.

Do you see my point?

Do you see now why I have been so furious at those who like to make excuses for the behavior of the last administration?

And what about water boarding?

Ask Christopher Hitchens if that is terrible torture. Of course it is.

No.

We can not have this done in our name. It is the tragedy of America in these times that somehow people have learned to be blind to the realities of this. It is a deeper tragedy that so many of us gave into fear and found ways to not see the truth.

It is of course ironic that torture really does not work. Again. If it did, militaries would not apologize for it or ban it. War is hell. If it was to our benefit to torture from an intelligence standpoint we would do it.

If you torture either:

1. He would rather die then tell you.

2. You hurt him so badly that he tells you what you think you want to hear. In other words, he lies.

The big elephant in the room that no one on the pro torture side ever seems to acknowledge is that it does not work.

But, it is not moral or our system of laws either. Only those who are truly sick want it to happen. And that is really the point. You can't be the good guys if you stop being the good guys.

It disgraces us as a nation. It stains our honor. It saps our own will to believe we are in the right. It ironically strengthens our enemies by making us evil in the eyes of the world.

re: #237 Charles

Possibly a paying gig?
They're new to me.
I'll check it out, if you're going ot be there!

re: #240 Soap_Man

"If you torture this guy enough he'll tell you who started the God damn Chicago Fire, but that doesn't make it fucking so!"- Nice Guy Eddie, Reservoir Dogs

Exactly.

re: #237 Charles

Good. You deserve the chance to reach a wide audience.

re: #237 Charles

By the way, I'm going to be starting to write for True/Slant, in addition to LGF. I'll be posting many of the same articles over there, but I'll also be writing pieces just for them.

LGF will remain my prime focus, but I'm looking forward to expanding the old horizons a bit.

Nice. Do they pay? (Just a nosy question which you have no obligation to answer. Just hoping you're getting a bit out of it.)

re: #237 Charles

By the way, I'm going to be starting to write for True/Slant, in addition to LGF. I'll be posting many of the same articles over there, but I'll also be writing pieces just for them.

LGF will remain my prime focus, but I'm looking forward to expanding the old horizons a bit.

Covering the issues that matter.

/because i loves my pokeymans o3o

re: #239 Bagua

Ooops, thanks for the correction. All of us except the flouncer.

Two, if you count RCM (the author post this thread was posted to showcase as an example of bad behavior). Though that could also be called a simple meltdown.

Let's just say, I haven't stopped believing in capitalism.

re: #235 LudwigVanQuixote

So you would like to believe. And yet if you look at the debreifers and interrogators of the second world war, they will tell you that we got loads of information by treating prisoners kindly.

Use common sense. If you are in pain, you are going to tell them what you think they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

It is nonsense to believe it works in general or reliably. And again, if it did, we would not have condemned its use so roundly.

Saying that asking nicely also works does not automatically mean that torture does not work. You said torture didn't work. I pointed you to a concrete example of where it did.

Using common sense leads one to believe that if someone is torturing you for information, you will start with what you know, not something you just made up. The problem comes when you don't actually know what they want, not when you do. And that's the issue. How can you ever be sure you have the right guy?

You should use some common sense yourself. If someone was torturing you and asking you questions you knew the answers to, wouldn't you tell him the right answers?

It isn't nonsense. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence both for and against the effectiveness of torture. Barring a study that shows one way or the other, that's all we have to go on. The only nonsense is to categorically deny that it works, just because it is morally offensive. Even if it worked, we should still never legalize it simply for its moral implications. A lot of things work. We don't do them because as a nation we said no.

re: #237 Charles

By the way, I'm going to be starting to write for True/Slant, in addition to LGF. I'll be posting many of the same articles over there, but I'll also be writing pieces just for them.

LGF will remain my prime focus, but I'm looking forward to expanding the old horizons a bit.

Good. I like that site.

re: #248 Charles

Let's just say, I haven't stopped believing in capitalism.

That's good to know, both ways that post can be taken. Very cool!

re: #248 Charles

Let's just say, I haven't stopped believing in capitalism.

Yay!

re: #237 Charles