Umar Farouq Abdulmutallab was not the first Al Qaeda terrorist to use a PETN bomb hidden in his underwear; the terrorist who tried (and failed) to assassinate Saudi prince Mohammed bin Nayef in August used the same method.
1 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:01:44am |
And now, in the USA, we are to meekly stand in line while they check our underpants?
Is this any way for a free people to live?
Why aren't we taking this conflict to them?
Grrr.
| 2 |
FrogMarch Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:05:18am |
I recall the anal bomb conversation.
Originally, the bomb was thought to have been hidden inside Asiri's rectum, but further forensics revealed it had been part of an underwear bomb.
| 3 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:05:36am |
Hmmm. I hope aQ hasn't aligned itself with the Mormons and their Magic Underwear. /
| 4 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:06:27am |
re: #1 Ojoe
Last time I looked we were. We led the Yemeni attacks on the leadership shura for the group that claimed credit with two separate forays. We have sent more hellfire into the Waziristans than the previous 8 yrs combined.
| 5 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:06:35am |
I actually think that President Obama (whom I have been critical of) might finally be starting to understand some of this stuff. I hope he is ...
| 6 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:07:24am |
this bomb went off....gahh!....imagine the forensic nightmare
| 7 |
darthstar Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:07:31am |
re: #1 Ojoe
And now, in the USA, we are to meekly stand in line while they check our underpants?
Here...order yours today and avoid those embarrassing pat-downs at airport security. Also, if you don't wear underwear, you won't have to worry about being asked to show them...though there could be some minor chafing.
| 8 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:08:18am |
re: #1 Ojoe
And now, in the USA, we are to meekly stand in line while they check our underpants?
Is this any way for a free people to live?
Why aren't we taking this conflict to them?
Grrr.
We are doing that, Ojoe. We're providing intel to the Yemani government and our airpower is hammering their strongholds there. Al Qaeda is running out of places to hide.
| 9 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:09:08am |
re: #2 FrogMarch
I recall the anal bomb conversation.
I wonder how long it is before we see the Joker Bomb. You know, stitched in some lunatic henchman's stomach.
| 10 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:10:24am |
PETN and C4 have chemical signatures that can be detected in trace quantities in air. The low tech means is dogs or other animals, the high tech means would be "explosives alarms" at every transit hub doorway that go off like smoke detectors.
| 11 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:10:34am |
re: #8 Dark_Falcon
We are doing that, Ojoe. We're providing intel to the Yemani government and our airpower is hammering their strongholds there. Al Qaeda is running out of places to hide.
wow...never heard some of that news with regard to the Talis...seems like such a heavenly relationship
| 12 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:12:34am |
re: #5 _RememberTonyC
I actually think that President Obama (whom I have been critical of) might finally be starting to understand some of this stuff. I hope he is ...
Ummmm, really?
For some reason I think the President already understood this "stuff" no matter what Dick Chaney and his spawn say.
| 13 |
firepilot Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:13:09am |
I was in Saudi Arabia when this happened. It did not seem to get noticed too much in the US, but it was pretty big news there. I was actually fairly close to the Yemen border too, and before I left this fall, a pair of suicide bombers were caught on the way up. Incidentally it was AQ in womens veils.
Even in October, I had hear whispers of some Saudi F-15s being cocked and ready with bombs in case that border heated up, which it did. I actually would drive towards Yemen to go scuba dive on the Red Sea coast, and I imagine that entire road out of Abha down to Jizan and then Yemen border is closed to westerners right now.
| 14 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:13:34am |
i think the sexually repressed males who become underwear bombing candidates will do anything to get something below their waists to explode.
| 16 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:14:56am |
re: #12 webevintage
Ummm, really?
For some reason I think the President already understood this "stuff" no matter what Dick Chaney and his spawn say.
i think he started to get it after being slapped in the face by reality. i think this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
| 17 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:16:26am |
re: #10 Thanos
PETN and C4 have chemical signatures that can be detected in trace quantities in air. The low tech means is dogs or other animals, the high tech means would be "explosives alarms" at every transit hub doorway that go off like smoke detectors.
True. Until the enemy figures out how to seal the stuff and scrub the container well enough to avoid such detection.
I just paused for 15 seconds and came up with a half-dozen ways to do this that might even actually work. I'm not going to mention any of them, but none of them are hard to imagine or implement.
| 18 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:16:46am |
re: #16 _RememberTonyC
i think he started to get it after being slapped in the face by reality. i think this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
I think by recent, I feel it was about the time he was sworn in. A combination of the weight of the presidency sinking in and all the intel he suddenly had access to. An "oh, shit" kind of feeling.
| 19 |
darthstar Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:19:27am |
re: #16 _RememberTonyC
i think he started to get it after being slapped in the face by reality. i think this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
Actually, he's been consistent since the beginning of his candidacy on the subject of terrorism and how we should focus on going after the terrorists rather than allowing ourselves to be distracted by irrational fears and knee-jerk responses.
| 20 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:19:31am |
re: #12 webevintage
Ummm, really?
For some reason I think the President already understood this "stuff" no matter what Dick Chaney and his spawn say.
I just let it be. Let him believe he was lost but now is found. It's what happens when you have a caricature of someone in your head for so long, and then when they actually do or say something that doesn't fit with that, they have to rationalize it. He (Obama) must have changed. It couldn't have been that my caricature of him was wrong.
| 21 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:19:46am |
re: #18 Soap_Man
I think by recent, I feel it was about the time he was sworn in. A combination of the weight of the presidency sinking in and all the intel he suddenly had access to. An "oh, shit" kind of feeling.
As long as gets the clue and acts on it, I'm content. This is not something I want him to fail on.
| 22 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:19:56am |
re: #5 _RememberTonyC
I actually think that President Obama (whom I have been critical of) might finally be starting to understand some of this stuff. I hope he is ...
I don't think so, not yet...
Asked if the FAA was put on alert, Brennan said, "there was nothing in that assassination attempt against Prince Mohammed bin Nayef that indicated aviation was a target...
Evidently one needs to try to detonate one of these things before actually being considered a risk/make a no fly list.
100% lack of imagination with our security elements. Some folks need to flat wake up.
| 23 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:20:25am |
re: #18 Soap_Man
I think by recent, I feel it was about the time he was sworn in. A combination of the weight of the presidency sinking in and all the intel he suddenly had access to. An "oh, shit" kind of feeling.
perhaps so .... but he made some statements along the way that led me to believe that he was observing things through a lens that was not focused just right. he seems more dialed in than he was before. this is not a slam against Obama, it is a recognition of the progress I feel he is making.
| 24 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:21:32am |
re: #4 Thanos
We need to do more, apparently, because they still try this stuff, and we waste untold resources and time in the USA because of it.
| 25 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:21:45am |
re: #21 Dark_Falcon
As long as gets the clue and acts on it, I'm content. This is not something I want him to fail on.
Exactly. I don't always have faith in his opinions (mostly domestic policy) but I do have faith in his intelligence and sincerity. I know he takes this seriously.
| 26 |
darthstar Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:22:09am |
re: #20 recusancy
I just let it be. Let him believe he was lost but now is found. It's what happens when you have a caricature of someone in your head for so long, and then when they actually do or say something that doesn't fit with that, they have to rationalize it. He (Obama) must have changed. It couldn't have been that my caricature of him was wrong.
Well said.
| 27 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:22:25am |
re: #19 darthstar
Actually, he's been consistent since the beginning of his candidacy on the subject of terrorism and how we should focus on going after the terrorists rather than allowing ourselves to be distracted by irrational fears and knee-jerk responses.
and i feel that he only saw "al qaeda" as terrorists, ignoring the fact that many other terrorists groups existed that were not under the al qaeda umbrella. but as I said, I think he is progressing beyond that view.
| 28 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:23:02am |
re: #17 SixDegrees
True. Until the enemy figures out how to seal the stuff and scrub the container well enough to avoid such detection.
I just paused for 15 seconds and came up with a half-dozen ways to do this that might even actually work. I'm not going to mention any of them, but none of them are hard to imagine or implement.
There's always going to be ways to defeat any security measure, it's a matter of staying a couple steps ahead of the bad guys. As of right now, I tend to think that a lot of our airport security is for show and to make people feel safe, and clearly at least one asshole is a step ahead (thankfully not in the detonator designing game).
I think having dogs all over the airport would be a good start.
| 29 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:23:29am |
re: #17 SixDegrees
True. Until the enemy figures out how to seal the stuff and scrub the container well enough to avoid such detection.
I just paused for 15 seconds and came up with a half-dozen ways to do this that might even actually work. I'm not going to mention any of them, but none of them are hard to imagine or implement.
The problem is that you can't seal it completely unless you have some high tech means. Remember that these dogs pick up trace signatures in mines that are buried and sealed.
I would wager that this terrorist could have left his undie bomb in the car and they would have picked up the smell from his hands.
Hard, non permeable encasing would be needed, and that would get picked up by the means already in place.
| 30 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:24:51am |
re: #28 Girth
I think having dogs all over the airport would be a good start.
It's funny. For all of our advanced technology, the natural wonder of man's best friend's sense of smell often works best.
| 31 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:25:00am |
re: #8 Dark_Falcon
In a general way the enemy has whole countries as sanctuaries right now.
In one of them, he's set up thousands of centrifuges too.
| 32 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:26:48am |
Here's a good article on some the problems security and intelligence agencies:
Another Abdulmutallab Is On The Way
Money quote:
There are some institutional reasons for the failure to effectively analyze all this data and catch Abdulmutallab earlier. First of all, there are many similar patterns of potential terror attacks than the public never hears about. The counter-terror agencies have limited resources, and they cannot put a lot of effort into every potential attack. Then there is the personnel quality problem. The government has to compete with corporations for people, even in the area of intelligence gathering and analysis. The corporations tend to get the best people. But worst of all, the people who run the many counter-terror organizations, and subdivisions thereof, are either political appointees (selected more for loyalty to the boss, than administrative or counter-terrorism skills) or civil servants (those who were not hired away by corporations, and rose through the ranks, usually because they kept their heads down and didn't make waves.) While there are some extraordinary people in the government counter-terror bureaucracy, they are the exception, not the rule.
| 33 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:27:25am |
re: #30 Soap_Man
It's funny. For all of our advanced technology, the natural wonder of man's best friend's sense of smell often works best.
And the kids would love it.
| 34 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:28:35am |
re: #18 Soap_Man
Sometimes I can see that emotion in President Obama's face. My favorite presidential "oh shit" moment was President Bush last Fall announcing his reaction to the financial institution crises. He said something like "If we don't act", and then he paused and turned completely gray. Fascinating. I would not want that job for anything. I'm strictly cabinet level material.
| 35 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:28:38am |
re: #31 Ojoe
In a general way the enemy has whole countries as sanctuaries right now.
In one of them, he's set up thousands of centrifuges too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the PETN originated in a sales from a Qods force operative either. Iran's notorious for selling weapons and explosives to any non governmental buyer, they don't care if they are Sunni either. The way they see it the neighboring gov't needs some destabilization or they might become prosperous and a threat.
| 36 |
Spare O'Lake Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:29:35am |
re: #27 _RememberTonyC
and i feel that he only saw "al qaeda" as terrorists, ignoring the fact that many other terrorists groups existed that were not under the al qaeda umbrella. but as I said, I think he is progressing beyond that view.
Let's hope. And while he and the Dems are at it, maybe they should remember Pres. Bush's accurate characterization of the conflict as being global in nature.
| 37 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:29:43am |
re: #30 Soap_Man
It's funny. For all of our advanced technology, the natural wonder of man's best friend's sense of smell often works best.
Never fly, CARE would be up in arms and it would be hell to find a cab driver.
| 38 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:30:00am |
re: #29 Thanos
The problem is that you can't seal it completely unless you have some high tech means. Remember that these dogs pick up trace signatures in mines that are buried and sealed.
I would wager that this terrorist could have left his undie bomb in the car and they would have picked up the smell from his hands.
Hard, non permeable encasing would be needed, and that would get picked up by the means already in place.
Well, I'm going to disagree simply because there are several readily available materials that would accomplish thorough sealing while remaining hard to detect with x-rays or metal detectors. But I'd really rather not go into the specifics.
Dogs and what not aren't a bad idea, but there's a tendency for American transit security to focus on one single solution, put it in place and declare that everything is now fixed. I think the security mindset needs to be considerably expanded in scope beyond a simplistic response to last week's threat and method. Designing security based on what failed (or succeeded) in the past is not a good approach.
| 39 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:31:45am |
re: #33 Girth
And the kids would love it.
I spoke at a Career Day at a middle school about a year ago. I'm not going to say what I do for a living for the sake of Internet anonymity, but we spoke in pairs of two to small groups. The guy who came in before me was a cop who brought the K-9. So there I sat, watching the kids go nuts for this dog, knowing that my presentation would inevitably be a massive letdown.
After it was all over, I looked at the list of speakers, which also included a former Air Force pilot and, no joke, a fucking race car driver.
| 40 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:32:09am |
my son has a basketball game at 3pm ET, so I'll see y'all later!
| 41 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:32:49am |
re: #38 SixDegrees
Well, I'm going to disagree simply because there are several readily available materials that would accomplish thorough sealing while remaining hard to detect with x-rays or metal detectors. But I'd really rather not go into the specifics.
Dogs and what not aren't a bad idea, but there's a tendency for American transit security to focus on one single solution, put it in place and declare that everything is now fixed. I think the security mindset needs to be considerably expanded in scope beyond a simplistic response to last week's threat and method. Designing security based on what failed (or succeeded) in the past is not a good approach.
I've seen a simple and interesting security in CDG in Paris... para-military standing around in teams of two with AK 47's.
Works for me.
| 42 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:33:15am |
re: #39 Soap_Man
After it was all over, I looked at the list of speakers, which also included a former Air Force pilot and, no joke, a fucking race car driver.
wow...you were gonna fail no matter what.
that's a pretty hard line-up unless you are a fireman superhero who can teleport.
| 43 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:34:55am |
It's pretty amazing to see what's going on in the right wing blogosphere about Jim Hoft's post calling me a "supporter of child porn."
Not a single right wing blogger sees anything the least bit wrong with that. Instead, they're all gibbering and flinging feces at me. All of them.
And not a single right wing blogger sees anything wrong with Hoft's links to bigoted anti-gay sites, or to Bulgarian antisemitic conspiracy websites.
Does anyone still wonder why I won't be associated with these creeps and idiots any more?
| 44 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:35:46am |
re: #41 Walter L. Newton
I've seen a simple and interesting security in CDG in Paris... para-military standing around in teams of two with AK 47's.
Works for me.
Actually, those weapons were probably FAMAS 5.56mm assault rifles or MP% SMGs.
| 45 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:36:52am |
re: #39 Soap_Man
You went on after a Race Car Driver? Could have been a tough crowd.
| 46 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:36:55am |
re: #43 Charles
It is impossible to reason with unreasonable people.
| 47 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:37:55am |
re: #45 prairiefire
You went on after a Race Car Driver? Could have been a tough crowd.
Haha, no. He was in a different class, talking to a different group of students. It was just me, the cop and the dog in our class.
| 48 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:39:22am |
re: #44 Dark_Falcon
Actually, those weapons were probably FAMAS 5.56mm assault rifles or MP% SMGs.
Ok... I don't know, I am far from able to recognize one weapon from another. I have about 10 guns and rifles here, damn if I know what they are... but I know enough which clip goes into which gun or rifle. And I know how to shoot them too.
| 49 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:39:59am |
re: #39 Soap_Man
I spoke at a Career Day at a middle school about a year ago. I'm not going to say what I do for a living for the sake of Internet anonymity, but we spoke in pairs of two to small groups. The guy who came in before me was a cop who brought the K-9. So there I sat, watching the kids go nuts for this dog, knowing that my presentation would inevitably be a massive letdown.
After it was all over, I looked at the list of speakers, which also included a former Air Force pilot and, no joke, a fucking race car driver.
Been there, when some kid's bastard dad - an EMS tech - showed up by landing his medical helicopter on the school's athletic field, and gave the kids tours of it.
Jerk.
/
| 50 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:42:28am |
re: #41 Walter L. Newton
I've seen a simple and interesting security in CDG in Paris... para-military standing around in teams of two with AK 47's.
Works for me.
This is something that I think of as for show. The guys with the rifles aren't gonna find a bomb. Imagine an airport with bomb-sniffing dogs all over though, at doors, checkpoints, ticket counter lines, outside restrooms. That would make a terrorist sweat, because the dog might find something.
And fuck CAIR. Any issue they'd bring up to this would be filed in the same place that I put complaints from Christians when they get offended when someone says 'goddamn' or 'Jesus Christ' in front of them.
| 51 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:42:39am |
re: #49 SixDegrees
Been there, when some kid's bastard dad - an EMS tech - showed up by landing his medical helicopter on the school's athletic field, and gave the kids tours of it.
Jerk.
/
I know how that is... I dressed up as a clown to show the kids the benefits of working in a circus, and someone from the DOD was there giving out plutonium triggers... guess who got all the attention?
| 52 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:43:41am |
| 53 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:44:48am |
OT: I'm sorry to say that my favorite scifi publisher, Baen Books is about to take an ill advised venture into non-fiction. In July they are planning to publish Taxpayers' Tea Party: A Manual for Reclaiming Our Country by Sharon Cooper and Chuck Asay. I'm still going to buy Misson of Honor which comes out in the same month, but Baen shouldn't be publishing Tea Bagger dreck.
| 54 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:45:44am |
re: #16 _RememberTonyC
i think he started to get it after being slapped in the face by reality. i think this is a relatively recent phenomenon.
I agree. Obama did not have a fucking clue (or at least he showed no indication of one) prior to the Navy sniper episode. That was the turning point IMO. He did the right thing and received accolades for it. Thats when the light lit up. That and all of the terrorist intel coming in every day.
| 55 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:45:52am |
re: #50 Girth
This is something that I think of as for show. The guys with the rifles aren't gonna find a bomb. Imagine an airport with bomb-sniffing dogs all over though, at doors, checkpoints, ticket counter lines, outside restrooms. That would make a terrorist sweat, because the dog might find something.
And fuck CAIR. Any issue they'd bring up to this would be filed in the same place that I put complaints from Christians when they get offended when someone says 'goddamn' or 'Jesus Christ' in front of them.
Maybe I should have mentioned the dogs, and the stops that they made for "papers" and...
As much as the French suffered from a bad image in regards to self-protection, I can tell you first hand that there are certain areas that they have very good control of, there are certain things they do what probably would be a civil rights violation in this country.
Thier transit police can stop anyone and ask for proof of citizenship, looking at visas, passports... I've seen it happen, numerous times.
| 56 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:46:50am |
re: #22 The Shadow Do
Evidently one needs to try to detonate one of these things before actually being considered a risk/make a no fly list.
100% lack of imagination with our security elements. Some folks need to flat wake up.
But, the system worked, right?
| 57 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:48:30am |
re: #55 Walter L. Newton
Maybe I should have mentioned the dogs, and the stops that they made for "papers" and...
As much as the French suffered from a bad image in regards to self-protection, I can tell you first hand that there are certain areas that they have very good control of, there are certain things they do what probably would be a civil rights violation in this country.
Thier transit police can stop anyone and ask for proof of citizenship, looking at visas, passports... I've seen it happen, numerous times.
Well who can blame them? They've got all those fine wines, cheese and fine women to protect.
| 58 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:49:22am |
re: #56 Racer X
But, the system worked, right?
The system she was talking about was the response system once an attack has occurred.
| 59 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:51:40am |
re: #57 Girth
Well who can blame them? They've got all those fine wines, cheese and fine women to protect.
No, they had some of the most violent Algerian terrorist attacks at their Metro stations and airport terminals.
Not funny.
| 60 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:51:53am |
re: #56 Racer X
But, the system worked, right?
Yes, after the bomb failed to explode. Very reassuring.
| 61 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:52:45am |
I don't know if it has been already mentioned but a similar "under ware bomb"
attempted was foiled earlier... in Nairobi was it?
| 62 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:53:45am |
re: #58 recusancy
The system she was talking about was the response system once an attack has occurred.
Much like how the system worked after Lockerbie?
| 63 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:54:14am |
Anyone feel more comfortable flying today, knowing the system worked? How confident are you we will stop the next underoo warrior?
| 64 |
Obdicut Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:54:22am |
re: #43 Charles
The distinct tinge of jealousy is the only amusing part about their attacks on you.
| 65 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:54:29am |
re: #58 recusancy
The system she was talking about was the response system once an attack has occurred.
seemed sorta vanilla...guy was doused and handed over the the cops...then the usual backdoor procedures...no blankets, stay seated...what system was she referring to exactly
| 66 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:55:58am |
re: #59 Walter L. Newton
No, they had some of the most violent Algerian terrorist attacks at their Metro stations and airport terminals.
Not funny.
That wasn't meant as a shot at the French. Merely noting some of my favorite things out of their many contributions to the rest of the world.
| 67 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:56:31am |
Some genius on this board actually argued the other day that there was no need to fear, that the odds were much in your favor of not being bombed while flying.
| 68 |
Obdicut Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:57:34am |
re: #67 The Shadow Do
Well, uh, I don't feel afraid when I get on a plane. The statistical chances are very much in my favor. I don't worry about plane crashes, either.
| 69 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:57:40am |
re: #63 The Shadow Do
Anyone feel more comfortable flying today, knowing the system worked? How confident are you we will stop the next underoo warrior?
maybe the insurance companies should offer cash rewards for "devices found"?
| 70 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:58:54am |
re: #68 Obdicut
Well, uh, I don't feel afraid when I get on a plane. The statistical chances are very much in my favor. I don't worry about plane crashes, either.
1,000 updings to that. I've been trying to tell my girlfriend that for some time.
| 71 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:59:33am |
re: #68 Obdicut
Well, uh, I don't feel afraid when I get on a plane. The statistical chances are very much in my favor. I don't worry about plane crashes, either.
Agreed. I don't worry a bit either.
| 72 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:59:38am |
re: #68 Obdicut
Well, uh, I don't feel afraid when I get on a plane. The statistical chances are very much in my favor. I don't worry about plane crashes, either.
Yes, we need not overreact to this silly bombing business...
| 73 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:59:46am |
Asked if the FAA was put on alert, Brennan said, "there was nothing in that assassination attempt against Prince Mohammed bin Nayef that indicated aviation was a target...The suicide bomber came in next to him. We were very concerned about the possible assassination attempts."
I'm confused. The system knew about underwear bombs yet failed to prevent a 2nd attack. The only reason there is not a team of FAA investigators combing through a debris field in Detroit is because of the incompetenece of this one asshole. And he missed his raisins by this close.
I'd like to upgrade our system please.
| 74 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 3, 2010 11:59:56am |
re: #72 The Shadow Do
Yes, we need not overreact to this silly bombing business...
Now you're getting it.
| 75 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:00:53pm |
A third example, and more recent. A Somali man tried to board a commercial airliner in Mogadishu last month carrying PETN, liquid and a syringe.
Although arrested by African Union peacekeeping troops before the November 13 Daallo Airlines flight took off, he has been released since.
| 76 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:00:53pm |
re: #69 brookly red
maybe the insurance companies should offer cash rewards for "devices found"?
We could then all frisk one another? Interesting...
| 77 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:01:42pm |
re: #73 Racer X
I'm confused. The system knew about underwear bombs yet failed to prevent a 2nd attack. The only reason there is not a team of FAA investigators combing through a debris field in Detroit is because of the incompetenece of this one asshole. And he missed his raisins by this close.
I'd like to upgrade our system please.
Asked if the FAA was put on alert, Brennan said, "there was nothing in that assassination attempt against Prince Mohammed bin Nayef that indicated aviation was a target...
| 78 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:02:13pm |
re: #72 The Shadow Do
Yes, we need not overreact to this silly bombing business...
I don't think that's what's being said. We should be vigilant and do what we can to prevent attacks.
But take a look at how many flights safely land every year vs. how many crash and kill the passengers.
Me getting on a plane and being all freaked out would be the same as being scared to walk in the rain because I might get struck by lightning.
| 79 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:02:29pm |
re: #76 The Shadow Do
We could then all frisk one another? Interesting...
/duck, duck, goose is not just for kids anymore...
| 80 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:02:30pm |
| 81 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:03:40pm |
Even Obama has since said the system failed.
Janet got it wrong. Is it that hard to admit? Obama admitted it.
| 82 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:03:45pm |
re: #75 Buck
A third example, and more recent. A Somali man tried to board a commercial airliner in Mogadishu last month carrying PETN, liquid and a syringe.
Although arrested by African Union peacekeeping troops before the November 13 Daallo Airlines flight took off, he has been released since.
released? as in let go?
| 83 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:04:08pm |
re: #13 firepilot
OT, but I learned to scuba, and in fact was certified while at the Red Sea (when Sharm was part of Israel).
| 85 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:04:35pm |
re: #78 Soap_Man
I don't think that's what's being said. We should be vigilant and do what we can to prevent attacks.
But take a look at how many flights safely land every year vs. how many crash and kill the passengers.
Me getting on a plane and being all freaked out would be the same as being scared to walk in the rain because I might get struck by lightning.
| 86 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:05:31pm |
re: #78 Soap_Man
I don't think that's what's being said. We should be vigilant and do what we can to prevent attacks.
But take a look at how many flights safely land every year vs. how many crash and kill the passengers.
Me getting on a plane and being all freaked out would be the same as being scared to walk in the rain because I might get struck by lightning.
I contend there would be much freaking out today had this bomb not fizzled. Since it did not blow, well, what the hell. Everything is dandy...
| 87 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:06:30pm |
re: #86 The Shadow Do
I contend there would be much freaking out today had this bomb not fizzled. Since it did not blow, well, what the hell. Everything is dandy...
There's a reason it's called terrorism. And no one is saying everything is dandy.
| 88 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:06:39pm |
re: #84 Buck
Yes, that is my understanding...
well I can only hope that it was so they could follow him back to the nest, but if the same guy shows up on a flight to DC it's gonna look really bad for some people.
| 89 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:06:53pm |
re: #82 brookly red
released? as in let go?
Sadly, yes. The AU doesn't have the authority to detain people for very long and Somalia's Transnational Government doesn't have the ability to detain very many people. That said, a terrorist that hard-core should be shot "while attempting to escape" instead of being released. You have to neutralize such people permanently. or they will attack you again.
| 90 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:06:54pm |
re: #85 recusancy
And every time you fly, I would lay odds you are checking out the other passengers. And wondering.
Thats what terror does.
| 92 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:08:30pm |
re: #86 The Shadow Do
I contend there would be much freaking out today had this bomb not fizzled. Since it did not blow, well, what the hell. Everything is dandy...
If they bomb went off and everyone on board was killed, that would not make me cancel my flight to Vegas later this year.
| 93 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:09:25pm |
re: #92 Soap_Man
If they bomb went off and everyone on board was killed, that would not make me cancel my flight to Vegas later this year.
/terrorism only happens to other people...
| 94 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:10:04pm |
| 95 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:10:12pm |
re: #93 brookly red
/terrorism only happens to other people...
Statistically it only happens to a handful of people.
| 96 |
Interesting Times Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:10:33pm |
At first, I didn't think the Nigerian underwear bomber had direct links to and support from Al Qaeda, since the whole operation seemed so incompetent and slipshod (i.e. the fact he got as far as he did was due more to crappy intelligence coordination than any special skill on his part). Plus, it didn't have the Al Qaeda trademark of several simultaneous (and successful) attacks. Could this mean that Al Qaeda itself simply isn't as competent and effective as it used to be?
| 97 |
osprey34229 Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:11:21pm |
re: #58 recusancy
The system she was talking about was the response system once an attack has occurred.
the system is supposed to prevent the attack not respond
to attacks
| 98 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:11:27pm |
There are also witnesses that saw Abdulmutallab and another unidentified person talk to a gate agent in Amsterdam about how Abdulmutallab didn't have a passport.
It is not being talked about, but there are people from the flight who think Abdulmutallab ultimately was permitted to board the plane without a passport.
| 99 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:11:36pm |
re: #95 Walter L. Newton
Statistically it only happens to a handful of people.
Statistically Hiroshima only happened to a hand full of people too.
| 100 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:12:07pm |
The only reason there is not a team of FAA investigators combing through a debris field is because of the incompetenece of this one asshole.
I guarantee the next guy will not be this incompetent. The whole "odds of flying" argument will go out the window as we put pieces of a jumbo jet aboard a convoy of trucks. And mourn the dead.
| 102 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:13:19pm |
re: #99 brookly red
Statistically Hiroshima only happened to a hand full of people too.
Right. You made my point.
| 103 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:13:20pm |
re: #98 Buck
There are also witnesses that saw Abdulmutallab and another unidentified person talk to a gate agent in Amsterdam about how Abdulmutallab didn't have a passport.
It is not being talked about, but there are people from the flight who think Abdulmutallab ultimately was permitted to board the plane without a passport.
No -- Abdulmutallab did have a valid passport.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
| 104 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:14:31pm |
re: #90 Racer X
And every time you fly, I would lay odds you are checking out the other passengers. And wondering.
Thats what terror does.
Since 9-11 I I eyeball my fellow travelers, yes I profile. This is the new normal in that it is largely subconscious now. I see many others doing the same.
| 105 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:14:32pm |
re: #100 Racer X
The only reason there is not a team of FAA investigators combing through a debris field is because of the incompetenece of this one asshole.
I guarantee the next guy will not be this incompetent. The whole "odds of flying" argument will go out the window as we put pieces of a jumbo jet aboard a convoy of trucks. And mourn the dead.
The "odds of flying" is not a argument, just a fact. It has nothing to do with how terrible a terrorist attack is or what effect it has on people etc.
| 106 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:14:52pm |
re: #98 Buck
There are also witnesses that saw Abdulmutallab and another unidentified person talk to a gate agent in Amsterdam about how Abdulmutallab didn't have a passport.
It is not being talked about, but there are people from the flight who think Abdulmutallab ultimately was permitted to board the plane without a passport.
It's being talked about....by Prison Planet.
| 107 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:15:06pm |
re: #101 Soap_Man
Would you stop flying?
no, but I don't think that we should count on the odds for protection.
| 108 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:15:32pm |
| 109 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:15:52pm |
re: #101 Soap_Man
Would you stop flying?
How many planes were involved in 9/11?
EVERYONE stopped flying for 3 fricking days. Where were your odds then?
| 110 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:16:20pm |
re: #91 Racer X
Why not? Isn't that what we are doing in Yemen, possibly all over the globe, without our actually seeing it.
By the way, if and when the Saudis are attacked directly, they will respond forcefully. I'm not wishing bloodshed in their country. I would like to see some more internal housecleaning on their part.
| 111 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:16:38pm |
re: #96 publicityStunted
At first, I didn't think the Nigerian underwear bomber had direct links to and support from Al Qaeda, since the whole operation seemed so incompetent and slipshod (i.e. the fact he got as far as he did was due more to crappy intelligence coordination than any special skill on his part). Plus, it didn't have the Al Qaeda trademark of several simultaneous (and successful) attacks. Could this mean that Al Qaeda itself simply isn't as competent and effective as it used to be?
The Yemeni's in particular seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel.
| 112 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:16:50pm |
re: #107 brookly red
no, but I don't think that we should count on the odds for protection.
Who in heaven named equated the "odds" with protection. I haven't seen a single comment indicating that.
The statements about "odds" have simply been statical facts, not in any way a statement of safety or protection.
Or am I wrong?
| 113 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:16:51pm |
re: #104 The Shadow Do
Since 9-11 I I eyeball my fellow travelers, yes I profile. This is the new normal in that it is largely subconscious now. I see many others doing the same.
I profile walking down dark streets at night, but hey this is Brooklyn.
| 115 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:17:25pm |
re: #109 Racer X
How many planes were involved in 9/11?
EVERYONE stopped flying for 3 fricking days. Where were your odds then?
Again I ask: Would you stop flying?
| 116 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:17:30pm |
| 117 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:17:54pm |
re: #113 brookly red
I profile walking down dark streets at night, but hey this is Brooklyn.
Hey, it's second nature, though, isn't it? I've never felt afraid in NYC or Brooklyn, ever.
| 118 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:17:54pm |
re: #97 osprey34229
the system is supposed to prevent the attack not respond
to attacks
And read what she said. She was talking about the response part of the system. There is a specific system in place for response to such events and it functioned properly.
| 119 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:18:12pm |
re: #103 Charles
No -- Abdulmutallab did have a valid passport.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
According to the Dutch. I am not sure, but are we not allowed to talk about ANY possibility of cover-ups at all?
| 120 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:18:18pm |
re: #110 prairiefire
Why not? Isn't that what we are doing in Yemen, possibly all over the globe, without our actually seeing it.
By the way, if and when the Saudis are attacked directly, they will respond forcefully. I'm not wishing bloodshed in their country. I would like to see some more internal housecleaning on their part.
The Saudis will not be attacked directly. They made a deal many years ago. They will fund the terrorist groups provided they never attack SA again. This was after the last takeover of Mecca I think?
| 121 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:18:32pm |
re: #91 Racer X
You may not want to type that out loud.
I know why you say that, and it's not something I intend to trumpet. I'd much prefer that that Somali terrorist be given a fair trial, convicted of attempted mass murder and imprisoned. However, I would sooner see him dead than see him released to plan another atrocity. In so saying, my sole intent is to say that once someone has made an actual attempt at suicide terrorism, they must be neutralized permanently. to fail to do so invites further attacks.
| 122 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:18:57pm |
| 123 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:20:34pm |
re: #115 Soap_Man
Again I ask: Would you stop flying?
I intend to stop flying. But mostly that's because all the new security measures are simply over-the-top irritating and I don't want to put up with them.
| 124 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:21:02pm |
re: #115 Soap_Man
Again I ask: Would you stop flying?
Forever? Or just for a few days until I was confident the TSA got their shit together?
Because I was out of town on business the morning of 9/11. I drove home the next day. Like everyone in the country did.
| 125 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:21:05pm |
re: #120 Racer X
The Saudis will not be attacked directly. They made a deal many years ago. They will fund the terrorist groups provided they never attack SA again. This was after the last takeover of Mecca I think?
The first underroo bomber attacked the Saudi head of security.
| 126 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:21:14pm |
re: #117 Walter L. Newton
Hey, it's second nature, though, isn't it? I've never felt afraid in NYC or Brooklyn, ever.
never afraid, I just avoid ranting drunks with machetes... profiling.
| 127 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:21:16pm |
re: #121 Dark_Falcon
I'd much prefer that that Somali terrorist be given a fair trial, convicted of attempted mass murder and imprisoned.
Nope, no 'smoking gun', or lap in this case.
| 129 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:22:33pm |
re: #120 Racer X
The Saudis will not be attacked directly. They made a deal many years ago. They will fund the terrorist groups provided they never attack SA again. This was after the last takeover of Mecca I think?
That deal fell apart during the last decade. There were terror attack by Al Qaeda inside Saudi Arabia itself and the kingdom reacted with a major crackdown. Al Qaeda is trying to regroup in Yemen and start launching terror strike from there against the Saudis.
| 130 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:22:34pm |
re: #125 The Shadow Do
The first underroo bomber attacked the Saudi head of security.
I hate it when I'm wrong.
'-)
| 131 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:23:42pm |
re: #119 Buck
According to the Dutch. I am not sure, but are we not allowed to talk about ANY possibility of cover-ups at all?
What the bloody fuck?!
| 132 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:23:52pm |
re: #127 Buck
Nope, no 'smoking gun', or lap in this case.
He tried to board a plane with a bomb and detonator. That is Prima Facia evidence of intent to commit mass murder.
| 133 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:24:16pm |
re: #125 The Shadow Do
The first underroo bomber attacked the Saudi head of security.
And despite high level information exchanges afterwards:
Asked if the FAA was put on alert, Brennan said, "there was nothing in that assassination attempt against Prince Mohammed bin Nayef that indicated aviation was a target...
| 134 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:24:32pm |
re: #119 Buck
According to the Dutch. I am not sure, but are we not allowed to talk about ANY possibility of cover-ups at all?
Here's a picture that claims to be of Abdulmutallab's passport -- looks genuine, but I can't vouch for the authenticity of the site:
[Link: www.saharareporters.com...]
If the Dutch intelligence service says he had a valid passport, then I believe them. What possible motive would they have to lie about something that could easily be proven false?
| 135 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:24:35pm |
re: #120 Racer X
The Saudis will not be attacked directly. They made a deal many years ago. They will fund the terrorist groups provided they never attack SA again. This was after the last takeover of Mecca I think?
The Saudis are very much involved helping Yemen fight these people in Yemen.
| 136 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:24:44pm |
re: #129 Dark_Falcon
That deal fell apart during the last decade. There were terror attack by Al Qaeda inside Saudi Arabia itself and the kingdom reacted with a major crackdown. Al Qaeda is trying to regroup in Yemen and start launching terror strike from there against the Saudis.
I stand corrected (so easy to do). That said, I expect the terror funds to dry up any day now.
| 137 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:25:08pm |
re: #132 Dark_Falcon
He tried to board a plane with a bomb and detonator. That is Prima Facia evidence of intent to commit mass murder.
Apparently not in Mogadishu.
| 138 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:25:19pm |
re: #124 Racer X
Forever? Or just for a few days until I was confident the TSA got their shit together?
Because I was out of town on business the morning of 9/11. I drove home the next day. Like everyone in the country did.
If the attack was successful and I had a flight the following day, I may have canceled it. But it probably wouldn't take long before I would feel comfortable again.
All I'm saying is that the Detroit incident, whether it was successful or not, would not stop me from flying. Now, if these things were happening with more frequency, then it might change my mind. But right this second the statistical reality is that flying is one of the safest ways to travel.
| 139 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:27:27pm |
| 140 |
Stanghazi Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:27:42pm |
Just a toss-in off topic photo:
| 141 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:29:31pm |
re: #139 Dark_Falcon
Or he was simply bribed out of jail.
I prefer the follow back to nest scenario... but I doubt it was like that.
| 142 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:30:32pm |
re: #138 Soap_Man
I hear ya, and I agree that flying is statistically one the safest ways to travel. But here we all are, on a blog, discussing a failed terror attack. Imagine the discussion if there were a few hundred dead?
My point is we came way too close. Blame the Dutch or whomever, but the system failed prior to the flight leaving the ground. Fact. Yes we learned from it (although how much remains to be seen).
| 143 |
Soap_Man Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:30:32pm |
Pizza just got here, and it's time to waste my Sunday watching football.
It's been fun. Talk to you folks later.
| 144 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:30:33pm |
re: #134 Charles
Here's a picture that claims to be of Abdulmutallab's passport -- looks genuine, but I can't vouch for the authenticity of the site:
[Link: www.saharareporters.com...]
If the Dutch intelligence service says he had a valid passport, then I believe them. What possible motive would they have to lie about something that could easily be proven false?
You ask the question... not so easy to prove false. They could be covering for a huge mistake on their part. They could claim that just because he lands without a passport doesn't mean he didn't have one when he left.
Kurt and Lori Haskell witnessed something. There is video of Kurt talking about what he witnessed. I saw the video of him saying this. Somehow this has been swept under the rug... I think there is more to this.
| 145 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:30:46pm |
re: #135 MandyManners
The Saudis are very much involved helping Yemen fight these people in Yemen.
/their chickens are coming home to roost?
| 146 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:31:30pm |
re: #144 Buck
You ask the question... not so easy to prove false. They could be covering for a huge mistake on their part. They could claim that just because he lands without a passport doesn't mean he didn't have one when he left.
Kurt and Lori Haskell witnessed something. There is video of Kurt talking about what he witnessed. I saw the video of him saying this. Somehow this has been swept under the rug... I think there is more to this.
Link?
| 147 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:31:44pm |
| 148 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:33:06pm |
re: #96 publicityStunted
At first, I didn't think the Nigerian underwear bomber had direct links to and support from Al Qaeda, since the whole operation seemed so incompetent and slipshod (i.e. the fact he got as far as he did was due more to crappy intelligence coordination than any special skill on his part). Plus, it didn't have the Al Qaeda trademark of several simultaneous (and successful) attacks. Could this mean that Al Qaeda itself simply isn't as competent and effective as it used to be?
Possible. Although frankly, I share your misgivings about the lack of trademark aQ signatures in this instance.
| 149 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:33:10pm |
re: #131 MandyManners
What the bloody fuck?!
What is wrong Mandy? I am simply asking if it is possible that the airline employees might be covering up a mistake they made. The Dutch intelligence agency would have interviewed them, and asked them the questions. Why is impossible to believe that they might have lied?
| 150 |
abolitionist Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:34:19pm |
re: #134 Charles
There was a site I found soon after the event that indicated that the Christmas Day terrorist had some sort of valid "electronic" passport rather than a conventional one. Haven't been able to find that site since. Some sort of official govt or agency site in Netherlands, iirc.
| 151 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:34:30pm |
re: #149 Buck
What is wrong Mandy? I am simply asking if it is possible that the airline employees might be covering up a mistake they made. The Dutch intelligence agency would have interviewed them, and asked them the questions. Why is impossible to believe that they might have lied?
Like that damn Bush lied about 9/11!
- Jesse Ventura
| 152 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:34:34pm |
re: #144 Buck
You ask the question... not so easy to prove false. They could be covering for a huge mistake on their part. They could claim that just because he lands without a passport doesn't mean he didn't have one when he left.
Kurt and Lori Haskell witnessed something. There is video of Kurt talking about what he witnessed. I saw the video of him saying this. Somehow this has been swept under the rug... I think there is more to this.
Uh, no --it hasn't been "swept under the rug" at all. It's been debunked. There's a difference.
Again, here's the link I posted. Notice that the article specifically mentions Kurt Haskell's claim. Strange way to sweep something under a rug, wouldn't you say? Abdulmutallab Had Passport, Dutch Say - CBS News
(CBS/AP) The suspected terrorist who tried to blow up Northwest Flight 253 Christmas day did present a passport to authorities in Amsterdam before boarding the Detroit-bound plane, Holland's counter-terrorism agency said Wednesday.
Abdulmutallab arrived in Amsterdam on Friday from Lagos, Nigeria. After a layover of less than three hours, he passed through a security check at the gate in Amsterdam, including a hand baggage scan and a metal detector, officials said.
Abdulmutallab was carrying a valid Nigerian passport and had a valid U.S. visa, the Dutch said. His name did not appear on any Dutch list of terror suspects.
The confirmation on Umar Farouq Abdulmutallab's passport comes after a fellow passenger claimed to have seen a possible accomplice help the 23-year-old Nigerian board the flight.
Kurt Haskell, a Michigan resident returning home from a safari in Uganda with his wife, told the Detroit Free Press that he noticed Abdulmutallab "because of who he was traveling with" - a wealthy looking Indian man in his 50s.
Haskell, who was playing cards near the ticket counter at Schipol Airport, said the Indian man told ticket agents that Abdulmutallab "needs to board the plane, but he doesn't have a passport. ... He's from Sudan. We do this all the time."
But the Dutch counter-terrorism unit's investigation into Abdulmutallab's passport pokes holes in the theory that the alleged bomber had help evading security.
| 153 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:34:55pm |
| 154 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:36:14pm |
re: #149 Buck
What is wrong Mandy? I am simply asking if it is possible that the airline employees might be covering up a mistake they made. The Dutch intelligence agency would have interviewed them, and asked them the questions. Why is impossible to believe that they might have lied?
Between you and Girth with his talk about Prison Planet, I'm getting a feeling that somehow a grand conspiracy is about to be unleashed.
| 155 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:36:22pm |
re: #152 Charles
Maybe Kurt is Eddie's brother.
| 156 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:37:06pm |
re: #153 MandyManners
Yemen's chickens and Yemen's roost.
wahabies (sp?) was more what I was thinking....
| 157 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:38:18pm |
re: #144 Buck
You ask the question... not so easy to prove false. They could be covering for a huge mistake on their part. They could claim that just because he lands without a passport doesn't mean he didn't have one when he left.
Kurt and Lori Haskell witnessed something. There is video of Kurt talking about what he witnessed. I saw the video of him saying this. Somehow this has been swept under the rug... I think there is more to this.
I tend to agree with Charles on this point. I cannot imagine why an airline would allow anyone to board a flight without a passport, knowing that, at best, that person would be boomeranging back to them immediately, and likely at their expense. Not to even mention the security implications involved. No passport, you're not even boarding.
I call bullshit on this story. Mustering up as much grace as I can manage, I'd say that the couple involved think they heard something they actually didn't.
| 158 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:39:08pm |
re: #154 MandyManners
Between you and Girth with his talk about Prison Planet, I'm getting a feeling that somehow a grand conspiracy is about to be unleashed.
Hey, don't lump me in there. I was responding to Buck saying that people weren't talking about it. So I googled it and the top 5 hits were all links to there, so I said, "It's being talked about...by Prison Planet."
| 159 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:39:23pm |
re: #155 Thanos
Maybe Kurt is Eddie's brother.
He's a lawyer, so being brothers would help, since lawyers need both bullying and brown-nosing skills.
/mostly kidding
| 160 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:39:31pm |
re: #156 brookly red
wahabies (sp?) was more what I was thinking...
Wahabism is Saudi Arabia's No. 2 export.
| 161 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:39:59pm |
re: #158 Girth
Hey, don't lump me in there. I was responding to Buck saying that people weren't talking about it. So I googled it and the top 5 hits were all links to there, so I said, "It's being talked about...by Prison Planet."
Sorry about that.
| 162 |
Randall Gross Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:39:59pm |
re: #38 SixDegrees
I'm not suggesting a single solution, I'm suggesting another layer in a series of solutions. I also know that you would be amazed at the number of drug dealers in jail because they thought they had a foolproof means to get something by the dogs at the borders.
| 163 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:40:50pm |
re: #160 MandyManners
Wahabism is Saudi Arabia's No. 2 export.
And its funded by the Number 1 export: Oil.
| 164 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:41:06pm |
ABX is just now talking about this?
It was all over other sites less than a day after the attempt.
| 166 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:42:13pm |
re: #160 MandyManners
Wahabism is Saudi Arabia's No. 2 export.
and now it's coming back to bite them in the butt...
| 167 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:42:16pm |
re: #152 Charles
While you are here, a question. On the day of the incident, I swear I read something at MSNBC or ABC stating that Holland does not allow air marshals on planes out of the country, or something to that effect.
I know I saw it, but I can't find anything now, and I can't find any references to air marshall and Holland.
Did you see anything like that?
| 169 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:45:25pm |
re: #152 Charles
And this is another thing that simply doesn't pan out with this story - the "wealthy Indian accomplice" seems to be complete vaporware, invisible to all other passengers, personnel - and security cameras.
Most of the passengers on that flight live or do business in the Detroit area, and reporters here have been draining their petty cash accounts tracking them down and pumping them for information. So far, there's no confirmation of this illusory figure by anyone, and no one else who heard or witnessed the alleged exchange with the ticket counter staff.
So, is everyone from the entire airport staff, along with every passenger on the plane, in on a plot to bury this story in silence? I think it's more likely that the Haskells are either mistaken, or are guilty of a less charitably interpreted act.
| 170 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:46:36pm |
re: #167 Walter L. Newton
While you are here, a question. On the day of the incident, I swear I read something at MSNBC or ABC stating that Holland does not allow air marshals on planes out of the country, or something to that effect.
I know I saw it, but I can't find anything now, and I can't find any references to air marshall and Holland.
Did you see anything like that?
No, I don't recall that.
| 171 |
Racer X Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:47:00pm |
K: You sold a reverberating carbonizer with mutate capacity to an unlicensed cephalopoid, Jeebs, you piece of shit...
Jeebs: He looked all right to me.
| 172 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:47:04pm |
re: #169 SixDegrees
And this is another thing that simply doesn't pan out with this story - the "wealthy Indian accomplice" seems to be complete vaporware, invisible to all other passengers, personnel - and security cameras.
Most of the passengers on that flight live or do business in the Detroit area, and reporters here have been draining their petty cash accounts tracking them down and pumping them for information. So far, there's no confirmation of this illusory figure by anyone, and no one else who heard or witnessed the alleged exchange with the ticket counter staff.
So, is everyone from the entire airport staff, along with every passenger on the plane, in on a plot to bury this story in silence? I think it's more likely that the Haskells are either mistaken, or are guilty of a less charitably interpreted act.
YES! YES! YES! NOW KEEP YOUR TIN-FOIL HAT ON!
| 173 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:47:44pm |
re: #172 MandyManners
Maybe they're students of the Salahis.///
| 174 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:47:48pm |
re: #168 Racer X
He looked alright to me!
- Jeebes (MIB)
Small but needed correction. Jeeves was Bertie Wooster's butler in P.G. Wodehouse's fiction.
| 175 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:48:16pm |
I see the cover-up story has made it's way from Alex Jones to regular conservatives.
| 176 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:48:39pm |
re: #175 Killgore Trout
I see the cover-up story has made it's way from Alex Jones to regular conservatives.
Is there any difference?
| 177 |
Girth Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:48:59pm |
re: #169 SixDegrees
I think it's more likely that the Haskells are either mistaken, or are guilty of a less charitably interpreted act.
They just misunderstood the conversation.
Does anyone here speak Jive?
| 178 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:49:18pm |
I am surprised that some airlines don't use extra security as a marketing tool. Some people would pay more for it...
| 179 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:49:22pm |
re: #172 MandyManners
YES! YES! YES! NOW KEEP YOUR TIN-FOIL HAT ON!
I can't wear those. They're too itchy, and I find the radio waves beamed into my head soothing.
///
| 180 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:50:06pm |
re: #178 brookly red
I am surprised that some airlines don't use extra security as a marketing tool. Some people would pay more for it...
Some people do. They're called "corporate jets."
| 181 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:50:09pm |
re: #176 Walter L. Newton
Is there any difference?
Yeah. Jones was a darlin' of the moonbats and Troofers when Pres. Bush was in office.
| 182 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:50:16pm |
re: #177 Girth
They just misunderstood the conversation.
Does anyone here speak Jive?
he said dey be fullshit.
| 183 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:50:23pm |
re: #167 Walter L. Newton
I wonder if the Nigerians have decided to crank up those full body scanners we gave them a while back for their airport..... I think there were three.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Make that four.
| 184 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:50:41pm |
re: #177 Girth
They just misunderstood the conversation.
Does anyone here speak Jive?
Jus' hang loose, blood. She gonna catch ya up on da' rebound on da' med side.
| 185 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:51:12pm |
re: #182 brookly red
he said dey be fullshit.
'S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!
| 186 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:51:36pm |
re: #178 brookly red
I am surprised that some airlines don't use extra security as a marketing tool. Some people would pay more for it...
The problem with that is that for extra security to contribute anything, it would have to include profiling and that would stand a good chance of being shot down in court. At the very least, the measures would be tied up for years before they could be used. The airline would end up publicly attacked as racist and it would be a long time before they saw any benefit.
| 187 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:51:38pm |
re: #181 MandyManners
Yeah. Jones was a darlin' of the moonbats and Troofers when Pres. Bush was in office.
Cut me some slack, Jack! Chump don' want no help, chump don't GET da' help!
| 188 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:51:44pm |
There seem to be some remarkably elastic definitions of "conservative" floating around lately.
| 189 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:51:57pm |
re: #185 Walter L. Newton
'S'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!
it has been a while huh?
| 190 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:52:18pm |
re: #180 SixDegrees
El Al has that down pat. Problem is, we have more take offs and landings from one major airport a day than they do in their entire system....and the ACLU would never sit still for the 'arabs line up here' protocol.
| 191 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:52:47pm |
| 192 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:19pm |
re: #178 brookly red
I am surprised that some airlines don't use extra security as a marketing tool. Some people would pay more for it...
I think that would imply a sort of warranty. A potential bank breaker in case of an 'event'.
| 193 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:21pm |
re: #186 Dark_Falcon
The next time they get lucky, God forbid, we'll see it. There will be howlings, but we'll still see it.
| 194 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:45pm |
re: #186 Dark_Falcon
The problem with that is that for extra security to contribute anything, it would have to include profiling and that would stand a good chance of being shot down in court. At the very least, the measures would be tied up for years before they could be used. The airline would end up publicly attacked as racist and it would be a long time before they saw any benefit.
naw... just a few sniffing pooches & a few cavity checks all agreed to in advance.
| 195 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:49pm |
re: #190 tradewind
El Al has that down pat. Problem is, we have more take offs and landings from one major airport a day than they do in their entire system...and the ACLU would never sit still for the 'arabs line up here' protocol.
Profiling goes deeper than skin color.
| 196 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:52pm |
re: #190 tradewind
El Al has that down pat. Problem is, we have more take offs and landings from one major airport a day than they do in their entire system...and the ACLU would never sit still for the 'arabs line up here' protocol.
I think we could learn a lot of useful things from a look at El Al, but I agree that their current system could not possibly be scaled up or otherwise adapted to the United States.
| 197 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:53:57pm |
| 198 |
MandyManners Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:54:46pm |
I know I'm not the only one who is happy we're able to crack jokes about this.
| 200 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:55:13pm |
re: #192 The Shadow Do
I think that would imply a sort of warranty. A potential bank breaker in case of an 'event'.
maybe... maybe a huge break on insurance.
| 201 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:56:30pm |
re: #190 tradewind
El Al has that down pat. Problem is, we have more take offs and landings from one major airport a day than they do in their entire system...and the ACLU would never sit still for the 'arabs line up here' protocol.
I wouldn't either.
| 202 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:57:26pm |
re: #191 MandyManners
There was a Delta commercial done in ebonics floating around the 'net years ago that was pretty fly. Even though it was played on some predominately African American radio stations in my area, thinking I won't be linking it. Actually, by now it's pretty mainstream.... i.e. ' chillax and get your drink on'.
| 203 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:57:48pm |
re: #195 MandyManners
Profiling goes deeper than skin color.
The problem is that the standard media definition of the term is profiling = racism. Given that fact, the reporters and pressure groups would hammer any profiling plan into the dirt.
| 204 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:58:30pm |
re: #200 brookly red
maybe... maybe a huge break on insurance.
I would also think that an airline marketing itself like that would be like painting a big target on each of their aircraft. Much for AQ to crow about if successful.
| 205 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:58:51pm |
re: #201 Gus 802
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The knickerbomber failure is likely to lead to worse scenarios... I have no idea how we will stop the cavity bombers.
| 207 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 12:59:43pm |
re: #201 Gus 802
So you would not be planning a trip on El Al anytime soon, I guess...
| 208 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:01:00pm |
re: #205 tradewind
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The knickerbomber failure is likely to lead to worse scenarios... I have no idea how we will stop the cavity bombers.
Floss? How much PETN can you pack a tooth with anyway?
| 209 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:02:07pm |
re: #207 tradewind
So you would not be planning a trip on El Al anytime soon, I guess...
That's different. You mentioned the ACLU which puts that in the context of the United State of America. El Al falls within the context of Israel. Two completely different scenarios and realities. The USA will not be running things like El Al anytime soon.
Secondly, Umar Farouq Abdulmutallab was not an Arab. He is Nigerian. If you propose we start lining people up based on his profile than the logical conclusion is that we "start lining up Africans" to one side of the line.
| 210 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:03:44pm |
re: #204 The Shadow Do
I would also think that an airline marketing itself like that would be like painting a big target on each of their aircraft. Much for AQ to crow about if successful.
hey some people would pay extra to fly on flights with say anti-missile tech., armed security & sniffer dogs... as for profiling I can't say but if nightclubs can do it airlines can too. Just call it "membership".
| 211 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:03:56pm |
re: #196 SixDegrees
We could take a page in high-risk areas from their interview strategy. They do a lot of talking to passengers, a lot of one on one if they feel a need to do so, and this would probably not occur to our TSA, although the individual airline crews do a fair amount of it. Problem is, that usually happens after boarding , when there is a decision as to whether or not someone is going to be removed.... always the decision of the captain. Always a mess.
| 212 |
brookly red Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:04:25pm |
re: #205 tradewind
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The knickerbomber failure is likely to lead to worse scenarios... I have no idea how we will stop the cavity bombers.
dogs...
| 213 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:05:03pm |
re: #209 Gus 802
That's different. You mentioned the ACLU which puts that in the context of the United State of America. El Al falls within the context of Israel. Two completely different scenarios and realities. The USA will not be running things like El Al anytime soon.
Secondly, Umar Farouq Abdulmutallab was not an Arab. He is Nigerian. If you propose we start lining people up based on his profile than the logical conclusion is that we "start lining up Africans" to one side of the line.
I have no problem with profiling, in the sense that you are looking for terrorist types, people (any color, and race, what ever) who fit certain profiles of someone you want to know a little bit more about.
Israel partially does it by interviewing people, they can tell a lot in regards to certain answers.
That's profiling, you have a problem with that?
| 214 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:05:14pm |
Reminder: tonight is the Iron Chef 2 hour special from the White House. Get ready to seethe!
| 215 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:05:42pm |
I've got to get going. I've got a family event to attend.
BBL
| 216 |
simoom Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:06:14pm |
re: #23 _RememberTonyC
he seems more dialed in than he was before. this is not a slam against Obama, it is a recognition of the progress I feel he is making.
I not so sure this is a good thing.
My impression is what you're mainly seeing is not any change in strategy but a change in domestic political messaging and putting more attention on previous/ongoing anti-terror operations, foiled plots and elimination of terrorist leadership. I think they came to the conclusion that if they kept all these things quiet, as is their preference, instead of putting some of it out there and touting them as successes, you leave yourself open to the hailstorm of "weak on terror / doesn't understand national security" attacks they've been receiving.
It just seems that if too much attention is drawn to the massive ramp up in drone strikes and military / intelligence cooperation with governments that have terrorist problems, the likelihood is increased that the local populace in those affected countries force their governments to back away from cooperation, undermining our ultimate goals. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it would be unfortunate if the administration is having to balance between what's best for the global anti-terror effort and what's needed to push back against being completely delegitimized as commander-in-chief (a weakened CinC wouldn't bode well for keeping the public and congress on board w/ respect to the ramp up in Afghanistan).
| 217 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:06:20pm |
re: #209 Gus 802
True. Had he been flying El Al, he would have been profiled re his behavior.... and he should have been by the Dutch.** No luggage, through px from Lagos/Yemen, cash ticket?
The mind reels.
** actually by the people at Lagos, but fugeddabouddit, they've been infamous for years.
| 218 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:06:31pm |
re: #205 tradewind
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The knickerbomber failure is likely to lead to worse scenarios... I have no idea how we will stop the cavity bombers.
Can you say "fiber optics."
| 219 |
SixDegrees Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:06:44pm |
re: #214 Killgore Trout
Reminder: tonight is the Iron Chef 2 hour special from the White House. Get ready to seethe!
I don't like Michelle's outfit.
| 220 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:07:01pm |
re: #215 Dark_Falcon
Congrats or condolences, your choice.
:)
| 221 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:08:00pm |
re: #218 Walter L. Newton
Sure, I can say it, but I don't know how we're going to deal with the fallout when people get upset about the profile of their panties being remotely screened..... which is ridiculous, btw.
| 222 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:08:41pm |
re: #213 Walter L. Newton
I have no problem with profiling, in the sense that you are looking for terrorist types, people (any color, and race, what ever) who fit certain profiles of someone you want to know a little bit more about.
Israel partially does it by interviewing people, they can tell a lot in regards to certain answers.
That's profiling, you have a problem with that?
I have no problem with profiling as long as it's done discretely which is what an interview would suggest. Lining up people according to race or country of origin is not something that would be compatible with this country.
Additionally, interviewing passengers to this extent within US airspace presents massive manpower challenges. What El Al does as one airline within one nation is not compatible with our air transport realities which includes a multitude of intercontinental flights and airports.
| 223 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:09:20pm |
re: #214 Killgore Trout
Reminder: tonight is the Iron Chef 2 hour special from the White House. Get ready to seethe!
I'm such a foodie and Michelle Obamabot that I've got it fired up on the Tivo.
This will be a food throw down of epic proportions.
| 224 |
Stanghazi Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:09:45pm |
re: #214 Killgore Trout
Reminder: tonight is the Iron Chef 2 hour special from the White House. Get ready to seethe!
Wonder if they'll serve those Acorn cookies?
| 225 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:10:09pm |
re: #217 tradewind
True. Had he been flying El Al, he would have been profiled re his behavior... and he should have been by the Dutch.** No luggage, through px from Lagos/Yemen, cash ticket?
The mind reels.
** actually by the people at Lagos, but fugeddabouddit, they've been infamous for years.
Yeah, I think they did fail with regards to Umar Farouq Abdulmutallab. Big time.
| 226 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:10:22pm |
re: #221 tradewind
Sure, I can say it, but I don't know how we're going to deal with the fallout when people get upset about the profile of their panties being remotely screened... which is ridiculous, btw.
Which part, people getting upset, or the panties being remotely being screened. I actually have no problem with any sort of screening. But i have also spent years in continental dressing rooms at multiple theaters, really, I've had all sorts of people of all ages and sexes getting all kinds of views of me in various states of dress/undress. I couldn't care less.
| 227 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:10:41pm |
re: #222 Gus 802
That's the problem.... we just don't have the capacity to meet the demands of El Al quality screening. Too many flights.
| 228 |
The Shadow Do Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:11:22pm |
OK, Cowboys teeing it up. Die Eagles, Die!
later
| 229 |
gregb Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:11:37pm |
Doesn't this news report contradict with the anal-insert bomb that was discussed here and reported widely at the time? I clearly remember an in depth news reel talking about the details of the attack on the prince and the security implications.
| 230 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:11:46pm |
re: #226 Walter L. Newton
It's ridiculous. Women who have no problem walking onto a beach in a thong bikini get freaked at the idea of someone not even in close range seeing an outline of their body (sans face).
| 231 |
simoom Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:12:07pm |
re: #214 Killgore Trout
Reminder: tonight is the Iron Chef 2 hour special from the White House. Get ready to seethe!
My crystal ball sees lots of "Hot Air Comments of the Day" material being generated in the near future. :P
Oh, and "Go White House Executive Chef Comerford!"
| 232 |
Bagua Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:12:21pm |
The statistically likelihood of being a victim of an airplane bombing has little bearing on the amount of fear or impact the event has.
The 9-11 attacks killed a tiny fraction of the US population, yet the impact was vast, far reaching and traumatic for the entire nation.
There were about 114,610 accidental home deaths in 1986, and 47,900 died in car accidents, yet the 7 we remember died in the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. Who among us was not traumatized by that horrible accident?
What threatens us the most statistically is not generally the thing that most concerns us.
| 234 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:14:02pm |
re: #227 tradewind
That's the problem... we just don't have the capacity to meet the demands of El Al quality screening. Too many flights.
As was mentioned, more canine inspections. X-rays, puffers, etc. There's a lot more and that includes the intelligence agency squabbling, poor documentation follow-up and so on.
| 235 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:14:03pm |
re: #194 brookly red
Dogs are great but they can be stymied, as in the way drug dealers screw up their noses. How would they be used in cavity searches without being way too intrusive?
Ugh... maybe I don't want to know.///
| 236 |
tradewind Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:15:20pm |
re: #232 Bagua
In the same way you won't wake up tomorrow and see the headline in your local paper: Three Hundred Killed in Automobile Tragedies.
| 237 |
Bagua Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:18:07pm |
re: #234 Gus 802
As was mentioned, more canine inspections. X-rays, puffers, etc. There's a lot more and that includes the intelligence agency squabbling, poor documentation follow-up and so on.
What is truly pitiful is how seldom all these elaborate security measures actually stop the terrorists.
Presumably all the security checks air travelers are subjected to have some value in deterrence, yet, the panty bomber appeared to have no problem getting through.
| 238 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:20:20pm |
re: #237 Bagua
What is truly pitiful is how seldom all these elaborate security measures actually stop the terrorists.
Presumably all the security checks air travelers are subjected to have some value in deterrence, yet, the panty bomber appeared to have no problem getting through.
True. And we are talking about one means of transportation. Besides the other transportation modes there is also the possibility for terrorist attacks on facilities.
| 239 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:22:10pm |
re: #236 tradewind
In the same way you won't wake up tomorrow and see the headline in your local paper: Three Hundred Killed in Automobile Tragedies.
Just found one stat for 1998.
That would have been 3,207 per day worldwide. Whew.
| 240 |
Bagua Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:25:22pm |
re: #238 Gus 802
True. And we are talking about one means of transportation. Besides the other transportation modes there is also the possibility for terrorist attacks on facilities.
Right. What measures can be taken to secure all the buses, trains, subways and boats assuming the aircraft can every be totally secured?
| 241 |
gregb Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:27:54pm |
re: #237 Bagua
What is truly pitiful is how seldom all these elaborate security measures actually stop the terrorists.
Presumably all the security checks air travelers are subjected to have some value in deterrence, yet, the panty bomber appeared to have no problem getting through.
The most effective deterrent in stopping terrorist plots?
Fear they won't succeed. It's the perception that's the deterrent.
All these mechanisms that do the actual searches are far more valuable for show than actual catching things.
| 242 |
Gus Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:29:00pm |
re: #240 Bagua
Right. What measures can be taken to secure all the buses, trains, subways and boats assuming the aircraft can every be totally secured?
In order to provide that kind of widespread security in hopes of attaining 100% success we would become a police state.
| 243 |
Bagua Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:32:58pm |
re: #241 gregb
I'm down with the deterrent value, but this latest attack demonstrated that that it is easily defeated in the vast majority of airports using this new tactic. There seems no solution.
| 244 |
jayzee Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:41:15pm |
re: #190 tradewind
El Al has that down pat. Problem is, we have more take offs and landings from one major airport a day than they do in their entire system...and the ACLU would never sit still for the 'arabs line up here' protocol.
El Al doesn't have an "Arabs line up here protocol". They have an Israeli line and a non Israeli line. FWIW the people I've seen searched the most on El Al have been European backpackers, especially single women. We could and should scale up our security to match theirs. The argument that it would be too time consuming is baseless I believe. Their methodology is in fact very efficient. Saving more invasive investigations for those that should be investigated. The problem is, IMHO, that in the US, unless EVERYONE is subjected to the same thing, people will scream about profiling (regardless of what that "profile" is.) Therefore we need to invent a methodology which subjects everyone to the same thing, yet is not time consuming. A sure recipe for failure.
| 245 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:43:26pm |
re: #144 Buck
You ask the question... not so easy to prove false. They could be covering for a huge mistake on their part. They could claim that just because he lands without a passport doesn't mean he didn't have one when he left.
Kurt and Lori Haskell witnessed something. There is video of Kurt talking about what he witnessed. I saw the video of him saying this. Somehow this has been swept under the rug... I think there is more to this.
Kurt and Lori Haskell may have a career ahead of them giving interviews to every whackjob conspiracy joint on the planet.
Just because someone claims/thinks they "saw something" doesn't necessarily mean they know what they think they saw.
What about that "Israeli moving van" with the five guys on a rooftop in New Jersey?
/can't we ask questions? Just asking questions?
| 246 |
Buck Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:44:09pm |
Here is what I remember from leaving Amsterdam on my way back to Canada (Toronto). My passport was checked at check in by an employee of the airline. I also used it as picture ID when I got on the plane.
Now in some airports there are US Customs agents in the foreign airport, and you actually go through US customs in the other country, just before you get to the gate. However Amsterdam isn't like that.
Why would an airline let someone on without showing the passport? A bribe maybe? An excuse ("I have a visa, I just lost my passport... please let me on the plane...) but there are witnesses to something...
Also the father did give the passport number to the CIA the month before. Maybe this guy was worried about a 'hit' on his passport number?
| 247 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:45:18pm |
re: #244 jayzee
El Al doesn't have an "Arabs line up here protocol". They have an Israeli line and a non Israeli line. FWIW the people I've seen searched the most on El Al have been European backpackers, especially single women. We could and should scale up our security to match theirs. The argument that it would be too time consuming is baseless I believe. Their methodology is in fact very efficient. Saving more invasive investigations for those that should be investigated. The problem is, IMHO, that in the US, unless EVERYONE is subjected to the same thing, people will scream about profiling (regardless of what that "profile" is.) Therefore we need to invent a methodology which subjects everyone to the same thing, yet is not time consuming. A sure recipe for failure.
In Israel, all airlines get "El Al" security.
Outside of Israel, only El Al gets "El Al" security.
BTW on all my many flights to Israel, I fly another carrier, because El Al is just way to freaking expensive.
| 248 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:47:30pm |
re: #34 prairiefire
Sometimes I can see that emotion in President Obama's face. My favorite presidential "oh shit" moment was President Bush last Fall announcing his reaction to the financial institution crises. He said something like "If we don't act", and then he paused and turned completely gray. Fascinating. I would not want that job for anything. I'm strictly cabinet level material.
It ages you. I could see the job taking bites out of Bush that last few years.
| 249 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:51:05pm |
re: #55 Walter L. Newton
Maybe I should have mentioned the dogs, and the stops that they made for "papers" and...
As much as the French suffered from a bad image in regards to self-protection, I can tell you first hand that there are certain areas that they have very good control of, there are certain things they do what probably would be a civil rights violation in this country.
Thier transit police can stop anyone and ask for proof of citizenship, looking at visas, passports... I've seen it happen, numerous times.
They do indeed. However, I can see people freaking right the hell out if we did it like that here, and I don't just mean the jolly people at CAIR.
| 250 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 3, 2010 1:52:44pm |
re: #71 Walter L. Newton
Agreed. I don't worry a bit either.
I worry obsessively. I hate flying. Terrorism worries me less than mechanical failures, because I can at least fantasize about taking the dude down. I have no idea how to fix an engine that fell out of the plane.
| 251 |
jayzee Sun, Jan 3, 2010 2:00:30pm |
re: #250 SanFranciscoZionist
I worry obsessively. I hate flying. Terrorism worries me less than mechanical failures, because I can at least fantasize about taking the dude down. I have no idea how to fix an engine that fell out of the plane.
I have to fly in a day early for meetings so I can be really drunk during the flight (I have a thing against pills).
| 252 |
iceweasel Sun, Jan 3, 2010 2:05:23pm |
I know the "he didn't have a passport" story has already been debunked, but I reckoned I'd throw my two cents in: the Haskells aren't telling the truth, about anything, IMO.
I flew through Schiphol 4 times in the last three months on connecting flights. On one of those connections I had a ten hour layover. IMO the physical setup of Schiphol is such that it couldn't have happened the way they claim it did. (sitting near a ticket counter, overhearing conversations).
I even posted here in November about a layover in Schiphol, ironically, enthusiastically endorsing the airport.
All of my flights were NWA/Delta - KLM. Admittedly I was on the NA-Europe routes, not one from or to Africa, but I have a difficult time believing the procedures and security setup is radically different in some other part of the airport (Which is gigantic. They have a museum and a casino, for example).
More here about the layout, if you're interested.
| 253 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 3, 2010 2:10:54pm |
re: #246 Buck
Here is what I remember from leaving Amsterdam on my way back to Canada (Toronto). My passport was checked at check in by an employee of the airline. I also used it as picture ID when I got on the plane.
Now in some airports there are US Customs agents in the foreign airport, and you actually go through US customs in the other country, just before you get to the gate. However Amsterdam isn't like that.
Why would an airline let someone on without showing the passport? A bribe maybe? An excuse ("I have a visa, I just lost my passport... please let me on the plane...) but there are witnesses to something...
Also the father did give the passport number to the CIA the month before. Maybe this guy was worried about a 'hit' on his passport number?
Why are you still repeating this, after it's been shown to be false?
| 254 |
firepilot Sun, Jan 3, 2010 2:18:55pm |
re: #83 Buck
OT, but I learned to scuba, and in fact was certified while at the Red Sea (when Sharm was part of Israel).
I did my PADI Basic, Advanced and Nitrox this summer in Saudi at the Red Sea, at Al-Birk. I seriously doubt that any westerners are allowed along the coast or anywhere outside of work/housing compounds in that part of Saudi Arabia right now, since it is so close to Yemen. There is one road that comes up from Sanaa in Yemen, crosses into Saudi Border near Jizan, and goes north from there.
The road branches off with one going up the coastline past Al-Birk, other branch goes towards Abha/Khamis Mushayt where the Saudi RSAF bases is that is conducting many of the Saudi ops against Yemen rebels and AQ. And its pretty much a given than Iran is supporting those rebels too.
We had French, Brits and other Americans on the compound. Incidentally some good beer and liquor too. Whever the Brits are, they will put in a bar and make some good brew.
| 255 |
Cineaste Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:00:23pm |
re: #134 Charles
If the Dutch intelligence service says he had a valid passport, then I believe them. What possible motive would they have to lie about something that could easily be proven false?
If we are to believe that he had no passport then we are to believe that he boarded a KLM flight in Nigeria without a passport and transferred to a NWA flight in Amsterdam without one. It would mean that this entire plot would hinge on this nitwit's ability to sweet-talk his way past security & staff on two different airlines and in two different countries.
Occam's Razor suggests that is just not a reasonable supposition. Why would the planners risk him getting stopped? It's hard enough to get a bomb onto a plane, why massively increase the risk of detection? I think this guy had a passport and to believe he didn't requires some serious conspiracy theory buy-in.
| 256 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:02:00pm |
Sooo............ what we have here is a story that Al-Qaeda are not actually 100% buddy buddy with the Saudi Royals.......... but but but..... that's not what i hear on Fox and and..... you mean.... all those right wing *news* aggregation sites may not be giving an overview of the situation in it's entirity regarding Saudi and Al_Qaeda?
/
| 257 |
Cineaste Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:06:54pm |
re: #213 Walter L. Newton
Israel partially does it by interviewing people, they can tell a lot in regards to certain answers.
To be accurate, the answers you give are largely irrelevant to El Al security. It's your behavior while you're answering the question that they're interested in.
| 258 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:07:00pm |
re: #255 Cineaste
to believe he didn't requires some serious conspiracy theory buy-in.
or a severely limited intake of information from providers of mindless speculation as *news*.........
| 259 |
iceweasel Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:10:34pm |
re: #255 Cineaste
If we are to believe that he had no passport then we are to believe that he boarded a KLM flight in Nigeria without a passport and transferred to a NWA flight in Amsterdam without one. It would mean that this entire plot would hinge on this nitwit's ability to sweet-talk his way past security & staff on two different airlines and in two different countries.
Occam's Razor suggests that is just not a reasonable supposition. Why would the planners risk him getting stopped? It's hard enough to get a bomb onto a plane, why massively increase the risk of detection? I think this guy had a passport and to believe he didn't requires some serious conspiracy theory buy-in.
The guy pushing this claim also said this:
Here is what I remember from leaving Amsterdam on my way back to Canada (Toronto). My passport was checked at check in by an employee of the airline. I also used it as picture ID when I got on the plane.
Which bears very little relation to the reality of what happens when you are changing flights at Schiphol, as I detailed here.
I call bullshit.
| 260 |
firepilot Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:14:19pm |
It took Saudi Arabia years to actually start cracking down hard on AQ, and it was not 9/11 that did it. It was when the Saudi Royals seemed that AQ was now a threat to the Saudi Monarchy, that they finally decided it was time come down on them.
Thats why many Saudi terrorists that were in Al Qaeda relocated to Yemen to continue, since much of Yemen is lawless and uncontrolled. Yemen, like the Saudis a few years ago, has typically only acted against terrorists when it was in their own best interests.
| 261 |
Cineaste Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:16:16pm |
re: #1 Ojoe
And now, in the USA, we are to meekly stand in line while they check our underpants?
Personally, I'm going to put my 'junk' in a clear plastic bag to help the TSA...
:)
| 262 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Jan 3, 2010 4:01:48pm |
re: #261 Cineaste
All that junk?, all that junk inside your trunk?
:-P
(with apologies to the Black Eye Peas)
| 263 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Jan 3, 2010 6:48:14pm |
and the Saudis will be accountable in three, two, one, ...??????
| 264 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 3, 2010 8:22:24pm |
re: #104 The Shadow Do
Since 9-11 I I eyeball my fellow travelers, yes I profile. This is the new normal in that it is largely subconscious now. I see many others doing the same.
I only "profile" my fellow automobile travellers (watch for weaving, watch for people who hug the shoulder, don't signal, watch for hotshots with body kits on their Civics who drive aggressively) since I'm many MANY MANY times more likelt die as a result of a drunk or reckless driver than any sort of plane abnormality.
Not to say terrorism isn't important. But I don't pay any more attention to my fellow travellers than I did before 9/11. It might also help that any worry I might have about terrorism is completely eclipsed by my generalized nervousness about flying, and my low-grade claustrophobia about being stuck in a confined space for hours. Terrorism is the furthest thing from my mind on a plane.
| 265 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 3, 2010 8:26:03pm |
re: #221 tradewind
Sure, I can say it, but I don't know how we're going to deal with the fallout when people get upset about the profile of their panties being remotely screened... which is ridiculous, btw.
Totally agreed. I can't WAIT for those body scanners to be in play. I love the technology, it seems like it's effective, quick, efficient, and if people don't want to be scanned, well, they can take Greyhound 8-)
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