American Evangelicals Enabled Uganda’s Death Penalty for Gays

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
World • Mon Jan 4, 2010 at 10:07 am PST • Views: 2,041

Here’s the disgusting religious right story of the day, as the New York Times reports on a visit by three US evangelical leaders to Uganda that helped trigger the full scale persecution of homosexuals: After Americans Visit, Uganda Weighs Death for Gays.

KAMPALA, Uganda — Last March, three American evangelical Christians, whose teachings about “curing” homosexuals have been widely discredited in the United States, arrived here in Uganda’s capital to give a series of talks.

The theme of the event, according to Stephen Langa, its Ugandan organizer, was “the gay agenda — that whole hidden and dark agenda” — and the threat homosexuals posed to Bible-based values and the traditional African family.

For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”

Now the three Americans are finding themselves on the defensive, saying they had no intention of helping stoke the kind of anger that could lead to what came next: a bill to impose a death sentence for homosexual behavior.

One month after the conference, a previously unknown Ugandan politician, who boasts of having evangelical friends in the American government, introduced the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009, which threatens to hang homosexuals, and, as a result, has put Uganda on a collision course with Western nations.

Donor countries, including the United States, are demanding that Uganda’s government drop the proposed law, saying it violates human rights, though Uganda’s minister of ethics and integrity (who previously tried to ban miniskirts) recently said, “Homosexuals can forget about human rights.”

These morons are now complaining that they feel “duped.”

The three Americans who spoke at the conference — Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, whose mission is “mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality” — are now trying to distance themselves from the bill.

“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality.

“That’s horrible, absolutely horrible,” he said. “Some of the nicest people I have ever met are gay people.”

What a shock — preaching hatred leads to hatred. Who could ever have guessed?

Just appalling. This is where the rhetoric of the religious right leads, and don’t fool yourself — there are many people on the right who support Uganda’s persecution of gays, and would like to see the US do the same thing. Just read through the comments at any right wing site that covers this story; for example, here’s a typical thread at Free Republic, the first one that popped up in a search for “Uganda,” about Republican Senators who are opposed to the Ugandan legislation: Republicans Condemn Uganda’s Anti-Gay Bill.

One of many similar comments:

This is simply cowardice and people stating things that they don’t really believe in order to be politically correct.

Bunch of wimps. These Republican cowards deserve to be gang raped by a horde of gay Hell’s Angels. And Uganda should be commended for taking a stand against the gay gestapo.

12 posted on December 22, 2009 6:15:58 PM PST by MGMSwordsman

It’s easy to find thousands of comments like this one at Free Republic, Fox Nation, Hot Air, etc.

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138 comments

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1 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:10:46am
“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality.

Are these people that self-deluded? Do they not realize the logical outcome of their actions?

2 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:11:32am

Pull these guys passports, and end their tax free status. That is a cult. An anti gay cult. They can say the name but there is no Jesus in their efforts. No compassion. Just evil hatred. Americans who incite hate crimes should not be allowed travel.

3 Randall Gross  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:14:16am

Who publishes these idiot's hate-swill? That's where we need to focus in the US.

4 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:15:03am

re: #1 Obdicut

Are these people that self-deluded? Do they not realize the logical outcome of their actions?

No they don't. They feel that they have 3000 years of religious history behind them. They have the word of g-d behind them. If you even have to ask this question then you really need to broaden your horizon about religious fervor and religious ideology. This is nothing new, and unfortunately probably not the last we will see of this.

5 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:15:14am

re: #3 Thanos

Who publishes these idiot's hate-swill? That's where we need to focus in the US.

Clarify?

6 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:15:25am

Any organization called The Family just freaks me out.

7 Kragar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:17:31am

What a bunch of fucking idiots.

8 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:18:16am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

I don't think you're right, Walter. There are plenty of people with 3000 years of religious history behind them, with religious fervour, who think about the logical consequences of their actions. Dwell on them, even. They have some fictitious consequences, of course, based on faulty assumptions, but they still use logic to get there.

Hell, maybe they aren't in the least bit naive, and they want this consequence from their actions. I think that's a perfectly possible alternative explanation: they want to distance themselves from the actions but know damn well what will come from what they do.

9 baier  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:18:32am

re: #6 Cannadian Club Akbar

Any organization called The Family just freaks me out.

I guess they thought it had a better ring to it than "Homosexual Holocaust Empowerment Coalition"

10 Kragar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:19:04am

re: #6 Cannadian Club Akbar

Any organization called The Family just freaks me out.

The People's Temple was previously taken.

11 baier  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:19:08am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What a bunch of fucking idiots.

This is what a death panel really looks like.

12 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:19:37am

Anyone know what the legality is of revoking a Passport, or declaring a Reverend a cult leader, ending his ability to run a church? If we can prosecute people for traveling for sex with underage kids we should be able to at least restrict travel for those who advocate mass killing or lynchings.

13 djughurknot  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:20:15am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

I especially like the idea of revoking their tax-free status.

14 Summer Seale  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:20:35am

Yes, remember that Jesus spoke at length for entire chapters about how bad it is to be gay. It was one of his primary concerns, so we must stone and burn and hack and kill in his loving name...

...lovingly, of course! We have to love those we want to execute!

At least that's what my pastor tells me! Bless him.

15 djughurknot  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:21:26am

re: #11 baier

You betcha.

16 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:21:30am

re: #11 baier

Great point. So much for "right to life". Talk about cognitive dissonance!

17 jaunte  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:22:38am

Judging by his fantasies, 'MGM Swordsman' has some serious internal problems.

18 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:23:08am

re: #8 Obdicut

I don't think you're right, Walter. There are plenty of people with 3000 years of religious history behind them, with religious fervour, who think about the logical consequences of their actions. Dwell on them, even. They have some fictitious consequences, of course, based on faulty assumptions, but they still use logic to get there.

Hell, maybe they aren't in the least bit naive, and they want this consequence from their actions. I think that's a perfectly possible alternative explanation: they want to distance themselves from the actions but know damn well what will come from what they do.

Maybe I should modify my comment a bit. There are many people like this who do not think the logical consequences of their actions. are wrong, that's my point.

I don't know what your "religious" background is, who you have associated with, or haven't, but take it from me, there are people like this, and no, they have no coherent understanding that what they are doing is wrong, or in the least not acceptable outside of their "phyle."

19 Kragar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:23:24am

re: #14 Summer

Yes, remember that Jesus spoke at length for entire chapters about how bad it is to be gay. It was one of his primary concerns, so we must stone and burn and hack and kill in his loving name...

...lovingly, of course! We have to love those we want to execute!

At least that's what my pastor tells me! Bless him.

It was right before the section where he says you have to kill doctors who perform abortions and right after he says the earth was 3000 years old.

20 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:23:31am

Another Sin on humanity committed in the Name of God...
I am disgusted..Religion started out badly and has gone downhill for thousands of years...How many more need to die in the name of God in Earth's blood soaked History? How many more Lord?

21 Interesting Times  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:25:02am

Supposedly seen on a bumper sticker somewhere:

"Dear God: Please protect me from your followers".

22 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:25:12am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

I just don't think that we can assume what sort of people they are yet: whether they don't think about the logical outcome of their actions and cause harm due to that narrow-minded idiocy, or because they know what the outcome of their actions would be and they want it out of evil bigotry.

Whatever it is, it ain't good.

23 Altermite  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:25:17am

just read through their comments. There are a handful of people there protesting the law at all- and they are getting actively shouted down. A number are supporting it on the grounds that 'nobody would really get prosecuted, it would just keep them from talking about it in the open.

Disgusting

24 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:25:45am

re: #21 publicityStunted

Supposedly seen on a bumper sticker somewhere:

"Dear God: Please protect me from your followers".

Jesus Loves you
Everybody else thinks you are an asshole

25 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:26:27am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Maybe I should modify my comment a bit. There are many people like this who do not think the logical consequences of their actions. are wrong, that's my point.

I don't know what your "religious" background is, who you have associated with, or haven't, but take it from me, there are people like this, and no, they have no coherent understanding that what they are doing is wrong, or in the least not acceptable outside of their "phyle."

And I must add, my explanation above is not meant to excuse them in any way... but really, there are people who see this kind of evangelizing to be 100 percent right and moral, and they have no idea what harm they are really doing.

26 SixDegrees  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:26:27am

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Anyone know what the legality is of revoking a Passport, or declaring a Reverend a cult leader, ending his ability to run a church? If we can prosecute people for traveling for sex with underage kids we should be able to at least restrict travel for those who advocate mass killing or lynchings.

Advocacy, with very few exceptions, is not illegal. Only actions are.

There is no legal remedy for such filth. People are free to say whatever they please, nearly without limit, and are not responsible for the actions of others.

The only real solution is to drag such thoughts out into the sunlight, as is happening right here, so that the overwhelming majority of right-thinking people can see it for what it is - bigoted hatred - and shun those who promote and condone it.

27 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:27:33am

Darn it.
Eggs Bennie calls!
BBL.

28 jayzee  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:28:43am
This is simply cowardice and people stating things that they don’t really believe in order to be politically correct.

Bunch of wimps. These Republican cowards deserve to be gang raped by a horde of gay Hell’s Angels. And Uganda should be commended for taking a stand against the gay gestapo.

12 posted on December 22, 2009 6:15:58 PM PST by MGMSwordsman

Is it me or does the swordsman seem like he's repressing much? Swordsman ROFL!

29 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:29:11am

re: #22 Obdicut

I just don't think that we can assume what sort of people they are yet: whether they don't think about the logical outcome of their actions and cause harm due to that narrow-minded idiocy, or because they know what the outcome of their actions would be and they want it out of evil bigotry.

Whatever it is, it ain't good.

You keep assuming that I am trying to excuse these people. You evidently don't know me, nor pay attention to me when the subject of religion comes up on LGF. But I know much more about what I am talking about, and you don't... period.

Many of these people are completely deluded and think that what they are doing is right and correct. And they KNOW what may happen because of their "teaching" but even the ends are right in their minds.

They don't see it as evil, not in a million years. If you can't understand that, then you have fooled yourself.

30 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:29:23am

You know, I really would appreciate it people took my pronouncements literally.

"Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbor. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand."

Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence."

"I don't care how holy somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again."

31 albusteve  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:29:33am

re: #26 SixDegrees

Advocacy, with very few exceptions, is not illegal. Only actions are.

There is no legal remedy for such filth. People are free to say whatever they please, nearly without limit, and are not responsible for the actions of others.

The only real solution is to drag such thoughts out into the sunlight, as is happening right here, so that the overwhelming majority of right-thinking people can see it for what it is - bigoted hatred - and shun those who promote and condone it.

on the other end we can cut our foreign aid to Uganda to leverage a change in behavior...I'm sure some other countries would join us

32 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:29:49am
"...These Republican cowards deserve to be gang raped by a horde of gay Hell’s Angels..."

Is that like when Jesus said to turn the other cheek?
///

33 Kragar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:30:15am

re: #28 jayzee

Is it me or does the swordsman seem like he's repressing much? Swordsman ROFL!

I found an interview he once held on this very subject.

34 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:31:51am

re: #30 lawhawk

You know, I really would appreciate it people took my pronouncements literally.

That's nice and cute and educational and worthless. Men speak for men, even when they make believe they are speaking for g-d... there is only one person to blame, and that's man.

35 MandyManners  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:31:58am

There are a lot of poor people these idiots could be ministering to in Africa.

36 SixDegrees  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:32:07am

re: #31 albusteve

on the other end we can cut our foreign aid to Uganda to leverage a change in behavior...I'm sure some other countries would join us

Sure. There are other things that can be done as well. But there's nothing that can be done to shut the evangelists up in the way of prosecuting them. They haven't done anything illegal.

Only hateful, disgusting and wrong.

37 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:32:39am

re: #36 SixDegrees

Sure. There are other things that can be done as well. But there's nothing that can be done to shut the evangelists up in the way of prosecuting them. They haven't done anything illegal.

Only hateful, disgusting and wrong.

Who suggested that we shut them up?

38 SixDegrees  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:33:09am

re: #35 MandyManners

There are a lot of poor people these idiots could be ministering to in Africa.

As Walter has correctly pointed out, that's exactly what these idiots believe themselves to be doing.

39 Kragar  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:33:27am

re: #35 MandyManners

There are a lot of poor people these idiots could be ministering to in Africa.

I think it would be better for the Africans if these assholes were kept far away from them.

40 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:33:54am

I have always been an admirer of Brit Hume, but this religious comment yesterday about Tiger Woods was WAY beyond the pale.

He owes his viewers and Tiger Woods an apology.

41 Summer Seale  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:33:58am

I just read through the first pace of the comments at Free Republic, and that quote that Charles posted is probably one of the tamest.

They're literally as bad as the Taliban. Assholes all.

42 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:34:29am

re: #38 SixDegrees

As Walter has correctly pointed out, that's exactly what these idiots believe themselves to be doing.

Thanks... why is that so hard to understand for some people?

43 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:34:43am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

I am in no way assuming you're trying to excuse them, and I have no idea you're getting that out of my posts. You seem to be replying to things I haven't written.

What I'm saying is what I said first: I'm wondering whether these people actually think about the logical outcome of what they're doing-- that actually bad things will happen to actual gay people-- or whether they have deluded themselves into thinking that you can preach that being a certain way is both 'wrong' and alterable, without having that preaching used to justify actions against those individuals.

You answered that they definitely are self-deluding themselves; I'm saying that I don't agree with you on the 'definitely'. It has nothing to do with you excusing them, since I don't think being deluded is an excuse and I doubt you do either.

But I know much more about what I am talking about, and you don't... period.

Heh. Wow. Okay, then. Are you also aware of all internet traditions?

44 SixDegrees  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:34:57am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Who suggested that we shut them up?

My reply was to #12, who was looking for a solution involving revocation of passports or possible criminal charges being brought against the speakers.

45 Lidane  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:35:15am

re: #16 Rightwingconspirator

So much for "right to life".

Pfft. "Right to life" only applies to their right to control how others live their lives. That's how it's always been. =P

46 MikeySDCA  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:36:34am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Who suggested that we shut them up?

Nobody here yet, and hopefully nobody here ever.

47 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:36:57am

re: #43 Obdicut

I am in no way assuming you're trying to excuse them, and I have no idea you're getting that out of my posts. You seem to be replying to things I haven't written.

What I'm saying is what I said first: I'm wondering whether these people actually think about the logical outcome of what they're doing-- that actually bad things will happen to actual gay people-- or whether they have deluded themselves into thinking that you can preach that being a certain way is both 'wrong' and alterable, without having that preaching used to justify actions against those individuals.

You answered that they definitely are self-deluding themselves; I'm saying that I don't agree with you on the 'definitely'. It has nothing to do with you excusing them, since I don't think being deluded is an excuse and I doubt you do either.

Heh. Wow. Okay, then. Are you also aware of all internet traditions?

1) Yes they think about the outcomes, and they believe the outcomes are the will of g-d and it's good and they see nothing wrong in what they do or say.

Ok, understand?

48 srjh  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:37:23am

I've gotta stop telling myself that my opinion of Free Republic couldn't possibly get any lower. Surely there is a theoretical limit, but every time I think I've hit it...

49 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:37:27am

Heh. The exact same story is on the front page of DailyKos right now. Just thought I'd comment on that.

50 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:37:50am

re: #46 MikeySDCA

Nobody here yet, and hopefully nobody here ever.


re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Anyone know what the legality is of revoking a Passport, or declaring a Reverend a cult leader, ending his ability to run a church? If we can prosecute people for traveling for sex with underage kids we should be able to at least restrict travel for those who advocate mass killing or lynchings.

Six Degrees pointed out what I was asking... see above. Nope that's wrong, very wrong.

51 Gus  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:38:48am

Rachel Maddow Interviews Richard Cohen of International Healing Foundation

Video has relevant information regarding this article. Caleb Lee Brundidge works for International Healing Foundation; Uganda cites Cohen's book; etc.

52 soap_man  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:38:51am

I just read this whole article and am trying to think of an appropriate response to this. But I'm speechless. All I can say is wow.

Just...wow.

53 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:40:27am

re: #52 soap_man

I just read this whole article and am trying to think of an appropriate response to this. But I'm speechless. All I can say is wow.

Just...wow.

Wow... because you have never seen or heard of people who think this way... these preachers?

54 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:40:28am

re: #41 Summer

I just read through the first pace of the comments at Free Republic, and that quote that Charles posted is probably one of the tamest.

They're literally as bad as the Taliban. Assholes all.

Could you please give me some links to some Taliban blogs so I can compare their comments with Free Republic's?///

The point being that these whacko Christian right blog readers are not in the same league as the Taliban who actually carry out beatings and beheadings and actually burn down schools, and who actually kill our troops.
Not even close.

55 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:40:51am

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

I understand, Walter. I'm disagreeing that that is the only possible explanation. I'm saying that maybe they really, really do want bad things to happen to homosexuals and they understand that fomenting hatred and fear of them (along with saying that they have a choice so if someone is gay, it's their fault, their responsibility that they are) is going to help to lead to bad things happening to homosexuals.

Understand?

56 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:42:03am

NPR had an interview with Jeff Sharlet back in November that gives a great deal of detail about the Family and Uganda's death penalty for gays:


GROSS: Let's talk about The Family's connection to Uganda, where there's a, really a draconian anti-gay bill that has been introduced into parliament. Uganda already punishes the practice of homosexuality with life in prison. What would the new legislation do?

Mr. SHARLET: Well, the new legislation adds to this something called aggravated homosexuality. And this can include, for instance, if a gay man has sex with another man who is disabled, that's aggravated homosexuality, and that man can be - I suppose both, actually, could be put to death for this. The use of any drugs or any intoxicants in seeking gay sex - in other words, you go to a bar and you buy a guy a drink, you're subject to the death penalty if you go home and sleep together after that. What it also does is it extends this outward, so that if you know a gay person and you don't report it, that could mean - you don't report your son or daughter, you can go to prison.

And it goes further, to say that any kind of promotion of these ideas of homosexuality, including by foreigners, can result in prison terms. Talking about same sex-marriage positively can lead you to imprisonment for life. And it's really kind of a perfect case study in the export of a lot of American, largely evangelical ideas about homosexuality exported to Uganda, which then takes them to their logical end.

There's much more at the link for those interested in the financial connections between the Family and Uganda, etc.

I think when we look at those specifics of the Uganda bill, there is no way on earth to doubt that it is the product of American evangelical thinking: it's clearly designed by someone who believes the smears that were pushed in those series of talks, and has taken those ideas to their logical, if horrifying, conclusion.

57 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:42:34am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

You evidently don't know me, nor pay attention to me when the subject of religion comes up on LGF. But I know much more about what I am talking about,

Walter: It really isn't fair when I quoted an obscure Christian Scholar a couple of months ago.. You had read Watchman's works.. It's just not fair..
I love God with my heart.. But I don't mess with Walter on Religious writings..
Respect dude...
/Oh I'm still laughing that you tried to almost trash talk me last night after the Colts party ( Good food, Bad beer)
I know you were just poking me in the ribs.. It was so funny..Good effort..keep it up...( I didn't have the heart to reply cause I have been laughing about you posting about sports...) Walter and Sports
It's kind of like bombs and underware..2 words not often put together...
*wink*

58 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:42:44am

re: #55 Obdicut

I understand, Walter. I'm disagreeing that that is the only possible explanation. I'm saying that maybe they really, really do want bad things to happen to homosexuals and they understand that fomenting hatred and fear of them (along with saying that they have a choice so if someone is gay, it's their fault, their responsibility that they are) is going to help to lead to bad things happening to homosexuals.

Understand?

Of course they want bad things to happen... but they see nothing wrong with that... they don't see their own beliefs as evil, not in the least... they are following the will of g-d.

59 Summer Seale  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:44:09am

re: #56 iceweasel

Yes I heard that interview back then on my podcast list.

60 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #57 HoosierHoops

You evidently don't know me, nor pay attention to me when the subject of religion comes up on LGF. But I know much more about what I am talking about,

Walter: It really isn't fair when I quoted an obscure Christian Scholar a couple of months ago.. You had read Watchman's works.. It's just not fair..
I love God with my heart.. But I don't mess with Walter on Religious writings..
Respect dude...
/Oh I'm still laughing that you tried to almost trash talk me last night after the Colts party ( Good food, Bad beer)
I know you were just poking me in the ribs.. It was so funny..Good effort..keep it up...( I didn't have the heart to reply cause I have been laughing about you posting about sports...) Walter and Sports
It's kind of like bombs and underware..2 words not often put together...
*wink*

I was trying to poke you... I had a whole page of Cowboys stats open in another tab just in case you wanted to argue with me... I can't even come close to fooling a real sports fan.

Good catch.

61 Mark Pennington  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:45:42am

This has to be the most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encountered in my 31 years of life. These people need to be ostracized from our society for being the social deviants they are.

62 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:48:30am

re: #26 SixDegrees
re: #46 MikeySDCA
re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Hate speech is criminal, I thought. Maybe not Federally, then of course they were in another country. Advocating the killing of people for being gay surely falls into that hate category.

International travel can be restricted by the Feds, so in as much as that would shut them up fine with me. Of course they still have the 'net etc.
Doing what we can under the law has been my overriding point.

63 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:49:08am

re: #59 Summer

Yes I heard that interview back then on my podcast list.


I've never yet read Sharlet's book; that's something I've been meaning to read for a while. Almost bought it in an airport recently but I was on a vacation and didn't want the nightmares I thought it would give me.

64 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:49:24am

re: #61 beekiller

This has to be the most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encountered in my 31 years of life. These people need to be ostracized from our society for being the social deviants they are.

Don't get out much? Where as we are not talking about numbers in the tens of millions, there is a very large base of religionist in our country that see eye-for-eye on this subject, see the same way as these aforementioned preachers.

The most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encounter is when I run across people who seem to be oblivious to the fact that this sort of thinking exists and has for many and many years.

It's not new.

65 researchok  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:50:25am

This isn't the first time whack job evangelicals and radical Islamists have hopped into bed.

Won't be the last time, either.

66 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:50:42am

re: #62 Rightwingconspirator

re: #46 MikeySDCA
re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Hate speech is criminal, I thought. Maybe not Federally, then of course they were in another country. Advocating the killing of people for being gay surely falls into that hate category.

International travel can be restricted by the Feds, so in as much as that would shut them up fine with me. Of course they still have the 'net etc.
Doing what we can under the law has been my overriding point.

You can sit in many independent churches across the country and hear this monthly. An extreme but hearty example would be Phelps. He's not in jail, is he?

This sort of speach is protected.

67 Interesting Times  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:51:38am

re: #54 Spare O'Lake

The point being that these whacko Christian right blog readers are not in the same league as the Taliban who actually carry out beatings and beheadings and actually burn down schools, and who actually kill our troops.
Not even close.

The Taliban are in a position where they can easily get away with those things, while the far-right whackadoodles are not. I cringe to think of what would happen if they ever got that kind of power - probably a lot more of this: Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

68 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:52:15am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

I really do understand your claim, Walter, I just think your claim is ignoring a perfectly viable alternative explanation. I mean, your claims, since you've both said they don't think about the logical consequences of their actions and that they do, but I know what you mean by it.

I'm simply pointing out there's another explanation-- at least one other-- that you're dismissing. There are definitely people who have propagated a religious agenda with a specific target of hatred, and I think that we can conclude in many cases that the religion is their veil for dealing with their fear and hatred of that other that they're using religion to destroy.

Have you read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience"? I really like his concept of the veil and the tremendum.

69 jaunte  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:53:47am

Uganda's religious makeup:

Christianity is the majority religion, practiced by about 66% of the population, with about 90% of all Christians being Roman Catholics or Anglicans. Other denominations include Seventh-Day Adventist, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, the Unification Church, and Pentecostal churches. Muslims account for about 16%; most are of the Sunni sect. The rest practice traditional African religions, which are more common in the north and west of Uganda. There are also small numbers of Hindus, Baha'is, and Jews.


[Link: www.nationsencyclopedia.com...]

70 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:53:50am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

Don't get out much? Where as we are not talking about numbers in the tens of millions, there is a very large base of religionist in our country that see eye-for-eye on this subject, see the same way as these aforementioned preachers.

The most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encounter is when I run across people who seem to be oblivious to the fact that this sort of thinking exists and has for many and many years.

It's not new.

beekiller knows that sort of thinking is far from new, and far from confined to Uganda. Nonetheless it's horrifying to realise that American evangelicals, particularly ones with a great deal of influence on american policy and politicians (the family), would have anything to do with Uganda bringing about the death penalty for gay people.

71 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:54:18am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

I remember being young and listening to KNBR and the Giants on the Radio and hearing ad's for Jim Jones' Church in the East Bay...He got pretty popular before everybody flew off to drink the real Kool-ade...
What about Wacko, Tx.? ugly religious stuff
Terrible

72 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:54:44am

re: #67 publicityStunted

The Taliban are in a position where they can easily get away with those things, while the far-right whackadoodles are not. I cringe to think of what would happen if they ever got that kind of power - probably a lot more of this: Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

What's stopping them from getting that kind of power. They live in a country that is much more free than most of the places where Islamic extremist live... they have access to guns here, freedom of movement, freedom of speech... many freedoms... how come we don't have bands of "christians" roaming the country side killing all those gays and sinners?

Because Christians, in general, don't have a meme and a book that gives them permission to kill non-believers.

Boo!

73 Mark Pennington  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:55:22am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

Don't get out much? Where as we are not talking about numbers in the tens of millions, there is a very large base of religionist in our country that see eye-for-eye on this subject, see the same way as these aforementioned preachers.

The most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encounter is when I run across people who seem to be oblivious to the fact that this sort of thinking exists and has for many and many years.

It's not new.

I've never witnessed this countries so-called Christians traveling to other countries to help aid in having people executed for being born.

74 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:56:27am

re: #65 researchok

This isn't the first time whack job evangelicals and radical Islamists have hopped into bed.

Won't be the last time, either.

Yep. Just as the extreme nuts on the left and the extreme nuts on the right in America also join up over some issues (anti-gubbmint type thinking).

Wacko extremism makes for very strange allies.

75 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:57:55am

re: #73 beekiller

I've never witnessed this countries so-called Christians traveling to other countries to help aid in having people executed for being born.

Every read the history of Hawaii? Ugly stuff..
/Good to see you Bee

76 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:58:21am

Anyone who believes that G-d is a loving deity can't possibly believe in persecuting Gays. They are also his (her) creations. Anyone who believes in persecuting Gays (or non believers) in the name of G-d must consider G-d to be a vengeful deity. And I can't possibly go along with that ...

77 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 10:58:26am

re: #70 iceweasel

beekiller knows that sort of thinking is far from new, and far from confined to Uganda. Nonetheless it's horrifying to realise that American evangelicals, particularly ones with a great deal of influence on american policy and politicians (the family), would have anything to do with Uganda bringing about the death penalty for gay people.

I stand by what I said. Beekiller said "most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing I've ever encountered..."

78 simoom  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:00:09am

re: #40 _RememberTonyC

I have always been an admirer of Brit Hume, but this religious comment yesterday about Tiger Woods was WAY beyond the pale.
[ Video ]
He owes his viewers and Tiger Woods an apology.

I watched the rebroadcast of Fox News Sunday yesterday afternoon. When Hume went off on that, "if you want any hope of being forgiven / rehabilited convert to Christianity" tangent it was pretty shocking. It was also kind of surprising that none of the other panelists objected (Wallace, Williams, Easton).

79 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:00:44am

re: #75 HoosierHoops

Every read the history of Hawaii? Ugly stuff..
/Good to see you Bee

Like I said, this is not so new, it's terrible, always has been terrible, but not so new. And that's why it continues, because every generation thinks they found the "most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing..." they "ever encountered" and we have to educated society all over again.

And the youth thinks it's all so new.

80 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:01:53am

re: #78 simoom

I watched the rebroadcast of Fox News Sunday yesterday afternoon. When Hume went off on that, "if you want any hope of being forgiven / rehabilited convert to Christianity" tangent it was pretty shocking. It was also kind of surprising that none of the other panelists objected (Wallace, Williams, Easton).

they seemed shocked into silence ... it was truly one of the worst moments of Hume's career and if I were a Buddhist, I'd be pretty pissed at FOX and Hume.

81 theheat  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:02:30am

This story has been followed closely on sites like The Advocate and other sites that follow anti-gay legislation. It's appalling, really, that these self-proclaimed followers of Jesus are basically salivating at the thought of finally being able to legally dispose of those pesky gays... by killing them.

The self-righteous fundies at missionamerica have been running around like chickens with their heads cut off (okay, like Glenn Beck) trying to make sure America is less gay, and more Godly.

5. Let’s give our children some true leadership choices. Let’s leave them examples like Sarah Palin, Jim DeMint, Mike Pence. Let’s stop propping up a failed and compromised GOP, and let’s make sure the Democratic/Socialist party fades into oblivion.

4. We must pledge to overhaul the schools we are paying for. Let’s start sending our children to Christian schools, conservative charter schools, or begin home schooling them, while we simultaneously evict our local NEA-backed public school boards and replace them with smart soccer moms and dads who have true family values. Let’s get the radicals out of our taxpayer- funded classrooms, and refuse to vote for one more levy guaranteeing the same old anti-Christian, socialist, Darwinist, hyper-sexualized, and phony “green” school curricula...

2. Get all pro-homosexual and pro-promiscuity programs, literature, teachers, and counselors out of every school now. Remove “gay” clubs, Planned Parenthood at health fairs, and GLSEN- PFLAG- SIECUS activists. Cease all condom demonstrations, abortion referrals, on-site birth control dispensing, sexual orientation affirmation, and messing with children’s hearts, minds and bodies. Demand that schools uphold the traditional value of heterosexual identities, teach abstinence- until- marriage, and celebrate male/ female gender differences.

1. Allow—no, welcome-- Christianity back into the American public square...in schools, in community groups, in city council meetings, in the Senate, on city streets, in the courthouse square, in the media, in college lectures. Laugh at the ACLU. Elect judges who agree. Don’t elect presidents who think we are no longer a Christian nation.

If they can get them killed off elsewhere, I'm sure they're hoping for stronger anti-gay measures here at home, since they have the ears of so many gutless, equally homophobic, backasswards, anti-science, fundie politicians that would screw their own mother to keep their butts in office.

FWIW - I will never vote fundie, not even with a gun to my head.

82 Mark Pennington  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:04:22am

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

Like I said, this is not so new, it's terrible, always has been terrible, but not so new. And that's why it continues, because every generation thinks they found the "most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing..." they "ever encountered" and we have to educated society all over again.

And the youth thinks it's all so new.

I know none of this is new and I've read more despicable things in history. I'm talking about what I am alive to witness only.

83 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:04:52am

re: #81 theheat


If they can get them killed off elsewhere, I'm sure they're hoping for stronger anti-gay measures here at home, since they have the ears of so many gutless, equally homophobic, backasswards, anti-science, fundie politicians that would screw their own mother to keep their butts in office.

FWIW - I will never vote fundie, not even with a gun to my head.

Preach it!

84 Interesting Times  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:07:19am

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I was thinking more in terms of legal consequences for actions, which pretty much don't exist in countries beset by anarchy or ineffective central government (e.g. Somalia, Yemen). It seems to me that extremism and violence most thrive in:

a) places whose governments actively support that kind of thing
b) places where there's no stable government at all.

If there ever arose anarchy-style conditions in certain areas of the US, I'd be very, very worried about what might happen as a result.

85 Lidane  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:09:42am

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

they seemed shocked into silence ...

True. Kristol seems like he was totally caught off guard by the moment and the rest look like they got sucker punched and can't think of what to say.

it was truly one of the worst moments of Hume's career and if I were a Buddhist, I'd be pretty pissed at FOX and Hume.

Sad thing is, I liked Hume. I thought he was one of those totally unflappable guys who was on the level, even if I disagreed with what he was saying. Seeing him go off on this whole conversion thing was off-putting, to say the least.

86 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:10:23am

re: #85 Lidane

Sad thing is, I liked Hume. I thought he was one of those totally unflappable guys who was on the level, even if I disagreed with what he was saying. Seeing him go off on this whole conversion thing was off-putting, to say the least.


well said, Lidane

87 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:11:37am

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

Like I said, this is not so new, it's terrible, always has been terrible, but not so new. And that's why it continues, because every generation thinks they found the "most frightening, disturbing and despicable thing..." they "ever encountered" and we have to educated society all over again.

And the youth thinks it's all so new.

It's always been bad...What about Cain and Able? the only 2 brothers on the face of the earth? Nobody thought of Claiming Hawaii and asking mom to sent sisters soon? The first 2 brothers
And the original WBA cage match in year one...The first family could have been on the Jerry Springer Show..
*The naked girl seduced me with only an apple..So sue me*

88 erraticsphinx  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:18:53am

re: #65 researchok

I'm pretty sure both parties involved here are fundamentalist Christians.

But what you describe has happened before, in terms of creationism.

89 drcordell  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:18:53am

re: #85 Lidane

Sad thing is, I liked Hume. I thought he was one of those totally unflappable guys who was on the level, even if I disagreed with what he was saying. Seeing him go off on this whole conversion thing was off-putting, to say the least.

I would have thought that Hume would know better than to comment on the tragedies of someone else's personal life. Doubtful he'd react to kindly to questions about whether or not his gay son sought the "forgiveness and redemption" of the Christian faith.

90 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:20:52am

*sigh*

no words, other than entirely predictable.

91 Soap_Man  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:22:01am

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

Wow... because you have never seen or heard of people who think this way... these preachers?

No, I have. Reading about all this still shocks me though.

92 Sinistershade  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:23:44am

Tangentially related to this thread:

A report on the goings-on at the Values Voters Summit. Note the number of GOP leaders and hopefuls there to get a (if you'll excuse the expression) blessing. (The story is a little dated, but I just ran across it today.)

[Link: www.americanhumanist.org...]

93 erraticsphinx  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:38:20am

Also somewhat related to fundamentalists:

Gateway Pundit's response to Brit Hume's crude comments has been pretty pathetic..."Christianity under attack!". Hehe.

94 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:46:16am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

And I must add, my explanation above is not meant to excuse them in any way... but really, there are people who see this kind of evangelizing to be 100 percent right and moral, and they have no idea what harm they are really doing.

Nice sense of irony, Walter, in those final ten words.

95 theliel  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:49:54am

Typical. I'm pretty sure the Evangelicals (when they teamed up with the corporate interests) are pretty much 70% responsible for the state of Science in this country.

Anti-Science, anti-education, anti-freedom.

96 Jaerik  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:17:13pm

re: #40 _RememberTonyC

I have always been an admirer of Brit Hume, but this religious comment yesterday about Tiger Woods was WAY beyond the pale.

I thought that Brit Hume was on the "news" side of Fox and not the "editorial" side, or at least that's what I've been told. So much for that, eh.

97 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:19:11pm
“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children.

Oh Really?

What Schmierer has yet to acknowledge is that he had every opportunity not to be “duped,” as he put it. BTB’s Timothy Kincaid sent a warning via Exodus International president Alan Chambers before the conference took place, explaining exactly what he was getting into. Chambers either didn’t pass the warning on to Schmierer, or Schmierer chose to ignore it. The aggravating thing is that this could have been avoided — or, at the very least Exodus International’s implicit participation in the conference.

And of course, let’s not forget Exodus’s first attempt at “fixing” the problem they created — their hamfisted attempt to put a positive spin on Schmierer’s talk by “applauding” his being there.

Exodus Applauds Schmierer's Part in Ugandan Conference

Utterly despicable.

98 byron  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:19:24pm

Come on guys, it's not as if Uganda has any bigger problems to deal with.

99 acacia  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:28:11pm

re: #97 iceweasel

Very interesting links you have posted. Strange (and dangerous) group.

100 Girth  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:29:14pm

re: #96 Jaerik

I thought that Brit Hume was on the "news" side of Fox and not the "editorial" side, or at least that's what I've been told. So much for that, eh.

He was/is their Washington Managing Editor.

101 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:30:03pm

More info on Scott Lively: Holocaust Revisionist.

Scott Lively already had a notorious reputation as author of The Pink Swastika, in which he claims that the Nazi movement was, at its core, a gay movement, and that violent fascism is the natural consequence of “the homosexual agenda.” “The Nazi Party was entirely controlled by militaristic male homosexuals throughout its short history,” he writes in his book, which is available online for free, and would be made available to conference attendees. He also adds that “There is no question that homosexuality figures prominently in the history of the Holocaust,” saying that German gays were eager to target Jews for extinction because of Judaism’s traditional prohibition against homosexuality. He doesn’t explain why Christianity’s traditional prohibition against homosexuality — which held a far greater moral influence throughout Europe — was ignored.

It is this sort of rhetoric that has brought him the attention of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hate Watch project.

Tell us more about Scott Lively!

There are only ten groups with anti-gay rhetoric so violent-laden and provocative as to qualify to appear on the SPLC’s list of anti-gay hate groups. Mere opposition to homosexuality isn’t close to being enough. It’s a very easy list to avoid landing on. But Scott Lively serves in a foundational or leadership capacity with nearly one-third of those groups: Abiding Truth Ministries (his own personal platform), Watchmen On the Walls (Lively was a co-founder of th group) and the School of Christian Activism (affiliated with the Springfield, MA church he attends and where he is a regular lecturer).

102 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:32:50pm

re: #99 acacia

Very interesting links you have posted. Strange (and dangerous) group.

Thanks. I just found a goldmine: here is BoxTurtleBulletin's complete coverage of the Uganda conference and its connections with American evangelicals. They've been on the issue since before the conference occurred. Highly recommend-- I have only just started digging through it.

Slouching Towards Kampala: Uganda’s Deadly Embrace of Hate

103 It's a cookbook!  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:34:40pm

re: #101 iceweasel

And I thought using Nazi's to attack Darwinism was bad...

104 Girth  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:39:00pm

re: #101 iceweasel

...saying that German gays were eager to target Jews for extinction because of Judaism’s traditional prohibition against homosexuality. He doesn’t explain why Christianity’s traditional prohibition against homosexuality — which held a far greater moral influence throughout Europe — was ignored.

details, details...
/

105 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:39:55pm

re: #103 JasonA

And I thought using Nazi's to attack Darwinism was bad...

I remember that Pink Swastika book and the deranged things it spouts-- I had completely forgotten the name of the author. It's available online for free but I won't link. If you google you can get an idea of what he says.

Here's a little sample of the sort of rhetoric Lively preaches:

He regularly describes gays as being sick and “followers of the Father of Lies.” When the Watchmen On the Walls held a rally in Novosibirsk, Russia, Lively excused Satander Singh’s murder in Sacramento. Lively contends that “civilization and homosexuals” are engaged in a full-blown war, which is part of the Devil’s design to destroy civilizations:

There is a war that is going on in the world. There is a war that is waging across the entire face of the globe. It’s been waging in the United States for decades, and it’s been waging in Europe for decades. It’s a war between Christians and homosexuals. … Now, the homosexual movement has been winning this war in the United States, and it has been winning this war in Europe. And we’re looking at the future collapse of Western civilization.

Yes, no one could possibly have predicted that this would lead to the actions Uganda has taken. Can there be any doubt that Lively and those like him would love to see it happen here? I think not.

106 Girth  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:46:15pm

re: #93 erraticsphinx

Also somewhat related to fundamentalists:

Gateway Pundit's response to Brit Hume's crude comments has been pretty pathetic..."Christianity under attack!". Hehe.

Steve Benen's response to Hoft:

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

* It's arrogant: Hume feels comfortable lecturing someone he doesn't know about what religious beliefs he should embrace.

* It's close-minded: Hume seems to think there's something inadequate about Buddhism.

* It's ridiculous: Hume may not realize it, but there have been quite a few high-profile Christians of late who've been caught up in damaging sex scandals.

* It's unprofessional: Hume at least pretends to be a journalist at a network that at least pretends to be a credible news outlet. "Fox News Sunday" is not "The 700 Club," and having a journalist proselytizing on the air during a "news" program is not even close to maintaining professional standards.

Dig the first comment:

Careful, dude. For his next trick, Hoft will accuse you of fisting third-graders.
Posted by: Fist Things on January 4, 2010 at 1:18 PM %P% PERMALINK

107 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:51:27pm

Ok, short summary of what I'm finding out: Uganda already had a history of excessive anti-gay action and legislation, as well as a history including extra-judicial torture by the police.

Schiemer's organisation was contacted in advance about about concerns about the conference.

Scott Lively is a Nazi revisionist who regularly claims that teh ghey are destroying civilisation and acting on the orders of the devil.

Some fun stuff on Brundidge:

Caleb Brundidge is affiliated with Extreme Prophetic here in the US. He leads groups to mortuaries to attempt to raise the dead! He believes God drops jewels and gold dust on worshippers but refuses to gain verification of these claims. He also claims he was gay and changed. Given his other claims, it is difficult to take any of his claims seriously.

I'd say so, yeah.

Here's a Ugandan tabloid from 2007.

There is no way these people didn't know what they were doing when they appeared at that conference. None.

108 Lidane  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:56:01pm

re: #107 iceweasel

There is no way these people didn't know what they were doing when they appeared at that conference. None.

Of course they knew. They're just acting shocked now because it's good PR.

109 It's a cookbook!  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:56:57pm

re: #105 iceweasel

That really is the heart of the matter though, isn't it? Making the claim the homosexuals are a threat? That "society" needs to be protected from them?

110 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 12:59:14pm

re: #93 erraticsphinx

Also somewhat related to fundamentalists:

Gateway Pundit's response to Brit Hume's crude comments has been pretty pathetic..."Christianity under attack!". Hehe.

Oh yes, I love the 'Christian' response whenever anyone points out that this is a secular society, and that Christianity doesn't get privileged above any other religion simply because they personally believe it is the One Truth: "Help, help, my religion's being repressed!"

No it isn't, douchebags. The right to freedom of religion includes freedom for all religions, as well as the right to freedom from religion. Not just your religion.
What a tool GP is. How utterly predictable.

111 Lidane  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:03:32pm

re: #109 JasonA

That really is the heart of the matter though, isn't it? Making the claim the homosexuals are a threat? That "society" needs to be protected from them?

Sure, because that's the first step. You paint someone as a threat, which allows you to slowly dehumanize them and turn them into an "other". Once they're no longer human, you get people to become desensitized to anything that happens to them, up to and including murder.

It's why all this virulently anti-gay stuff makes my skin crawl. Well, that and the fact that there's nothing wrong with being gay in the first place. It all smacks of serious denial and fear of something that's perfectly natural, and I just don't understand the obsession with gays by these preachers. I would think if Christ cared about such things, he'd have mentioned it at least once.

112 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:05:04pm

re: #108 Lidane

Of course they knew. They're just acting shocked now because it's good PR.

No, they're only acting shocked now because it's been international news for a few weeks, human rights groups are up in arms, and they're finally getting called out for it.

The initial response of Exodus International to being called out for what their board member, Schmeier was saying in Uganda was to applaud it.

Some more news: Scott Lively, on day three of the Ugandan conference, said that gays were also responsible for the Rwandan genocide. And pedophilia, of course.

(sorry to be spamming the thread with links like this, but I never read BTB's full coverage of the Ugandan conference while it was happening, and I can not believe what I am finding)

113 Girth  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:07:33pm

re: #112 iceweasel

I guess the real question to ask that douchebag then is "What bad things in history is not the responsibility of teh ghey?"

114 Lidane  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:08:00pm

re: #112 iceweasel

Some more news: Scott Lively, on day three of the Ugandan conference, said that gays were also responsible for the Rwandan genocide. And pedophilia, of course.

Yeah, no. Gays had nothing to do with the Rwandan genocide, and anyone trying to make that argument is a douche.

Of course, Lively has already been established as a douche of epic proportions, so I shouldn't be surprised.

115 It's a cookbook!  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:12:42pm

re: #113 Girth

I guess the real question to ask that douchebag then is "What bad things in history is not the responsibility of teh ghey?"

Mooslems.

116 Girth  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:15:55pm

re: #115 JasonA

Mooslems.

Pretty sure I've seen some of the crazies say that the prophet was teh ghey. Two birds with one stone.

117 It's a cookbook!  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:17:36pm

re: #116 Girth

Pretty sure I've seen some of the crazies say that the prophet was teh ghey. Two birds with one stone.

Eleven(?) wives is one hell of a cover.

118 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:19:01pm

Here is a screenshot of Exodus International's website, prominently promoting Scott Lively's Nazi revisionist history blaming the Holocaust on 'butch homosexuals'.

Shame on the New York Times for their shitty fucking reporting, letting it seem like these three people are just normal evangelicals who couldn't possibly predict what would happen. Shame on them!

119 ExCamelJockey  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:47:13pm

re: #56 iceweasel

I think when we look at those specifics of the Uganda bill, there is no way on earth to doubt that it is the product of American evangelical thinking: it's clearly designed by someone who believes the smears that were pushed in those series of talks, and has taken those ideas to their logical, if horrifying, conclusion.

I read about this last year and the issue of the evangelical connection was never mentioned. The article above fails to mention that Uganda has had harsh laws and harsh punishments for homosexuality for decades. Life imprisonment was the perscribed punishment for a long list of homosexual acts prior to this new bill. Even failure to report an act would result in a long prison term. Additionally, gays face widespread public discrimination and persecution in Uganda (blamed for AIDS etc). It's pretty much a hostile country for gays and has been for a long time.

Evangelicals have their share of problems but I'm not sure they can be blamed for decades worth of discrimination there. IMO, even if evangelical's hadn't been involved, no one who knew about the situation in Uganda would be surprised by this bill.

120 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:52:36pm

re: #119 ExCamelJockey

The article above fails to mention that Uganda has had harsh laws and harsh punishments for homosexuality for decades. Life imprisonment was the perscribed punishment for a long list of homosexual acts prior to this new bill. Even failure to report an act would result in a long prison term. Additionally, gays face widespread public discrimination and persecution in Uganda (blamed for AIDS etc). It's pretty much a hostile country for gays and has been for a long time.

YES! How could the Times have failed to report that??? How can they do that, helping to give cover to the scumbags now claiming 'they were duped'? Look at their description of the participants:

Scott Lively, a missionary who has written several books against homosexuality, including “7 Steps to Recruit-Proof Your Child”; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-described former gay man who leads “healing seminars”;

They don't mention Lively's revisionst book "The Pink Swastika". Why?
And they don't mention that Brundidge also leads trips to mortuaries to try to raise the dead. Why?
And they don't mention that Schmeier's organisation was contacted in advance about concerns about the conference, or that it had been condemned in advance by several groups. Why?
And they don't mention that Exodus International also sponsers Lively's holocaust revisionism on their website. Why?

I never want to hear another fucking word ever again about our 'liberal media' when you have the New York Times itself portraying people like this as if they were normal evangelicals, and whitewashing their associations, beliefs and actions.

Here's the problem: they are normal evangelicals, in the sense of being normal representatives of the out-of-control religious right in the US. When can we stop pretending they're anything but the American Taliban?

(and here is another fuck you to the NYT for their horribly shallow and lazy reportage on this)

121 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 1:59:09pm

re: #119 ExCamelJockey


Evangelicals have their share of problems but I'm not sure they can be blamed for decades worth of discrimination there. IMO, even if evangelical's hadn't been involved, no one who knew about the situation in Uganda would be surprised by this bill.

They can't be blamed for decades worth of discrimination there. They can be blamed for pretending they didn't know exactly what sort of environment they were presenting those ideas in. The point is that they did, precisely because of just how terrible the situation in Uganda has been for gays for so long.

122 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:33:38pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

Umm... not that I'm trying to insult Christians or defend Muslim Extremists but what about Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

[Link: www.tektonics.org...]


To me that sure sounds like a book and a meme that gives them permission to kill gay people (if not nonbelievers) if they wanted to...

123 Irish Rose  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:35:12pm
Now the three Americans are finding themselves on the defensive, saying they had no intention of helping stoke the kind of anger that could lead to what came next: a bill to impose a death sentence for homosexual behavior.

Bullshit.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:35:28pm

re: #67 publicityStunted

The Taliban are in a position where they can easily get away with those things, while the far-right whackadoodles are not. I cringe to think of what would happen if they ever got that kind of power - probably a lot more of this: Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

Well, I kind of assume the home-grown whackadoos went to Uganda for that exact reason. They don't have the power here, so they went to build it elsewhere. Very logical.

I hate to spit, that reminds me of Ploome, but I'm gonna anyway.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:37:58pm

re: #93 erraticsphinx

Also somewhat related to fundamentalists:

Gateway Pundit's response to Brit Hume's crude comments has been pretty pathetic..."Christianity under attack!". Hehe.

Yes. Christianity is under attack. Because...Tiger Woods refused to stop being a Buddhist?

/

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:39:41pm

re: #108 Lidane

Of course they knew. They're just acting shocked now because it's good PR.

The blood is on them. They did this knowingly.

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:41:33pm

re: #115 JasonA

Mooslems.

Give me an hour and a half, and I will demonstrate that Fundamentalist Islam is all the fault of teh ghey. But not today, because I have to put in my grades.

128 ssn697  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:41:51pm

The Freeper comments are truly disturbing.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:42:02pm

re: #117 JasonA

Eleven(?) wives is one hell of a cover.

King David had at least eight, plus concubines, and yet the rumors persist.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:43:21pm

re: #122 jamesfirecat

Umm... not that I'm trying to insult Christians or defend Muslim Extremists but what about Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

[Link: www.tektonics.org...]


To me that sure sounds like a book and a meme that gives them permission to kill gay people (if not nonbelievers) if they wanted to...

Mysteriously, what it says RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK is only predictive of social behavior in the case of the Koran. Just a tip, dude.

//

131 Claire  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:46:56pm

re: #120 iceweasel

(and here is another fuck you to the NYT for their horribly shallow and lazy reportage on this)

The cream of the crop, the uber-connected, the elite produced this for our consumption. We're just peasants anyway, right? That we can learn more in 2 seconds from a casual blog-poster than from these guys continues to amaze me and makes me distrust our institutions that much more. Fuck them all indeed. I'm tired of being manipulated.

132 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:55:13pm

To talk about the main issue of the post rather than the little diversion I got involved in with my last comment, I hope that a moment like this might make those three people and others around the world ask themselves if continued discrimination against Homosexuals is really what they want, knowing that it could lead to this.

Sadly it seems like there are those who when faced with an extension of their beliefs that would be out and out ridiculous if it wasn't so utterly horrible there appear to be those who only scream "YES THAT IS WHAT WE WANT" all the louder at the sight of such actions.

With any luck these are genuine shows of revolution from these three men, but somehow I doubt it will drive them to try and reverse course on their stance on gays marriage and the like...

133 Ghost of Insanity  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 5:31:09pm

re: #48 srjh

No matter how low your opinion of FR is, it ain't low enough.

134 MartiansAteMyCat  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 6:33:08pm

I'm a new hatchling, and this is my first comment, so please be kind.

The New York Times is very, very late to this story. I'm glad iceweasel highlighted the work of Box Turtle Bulletin, as that site has done amazing work on this story for almost than a year now. In fact, the Times story smacks of taking BTB's research, putting a slight twist on it, then not crediting BTB, who did all the heavy lifting.

Box Turtle Bulletin is one of the best resources on the Web for debunking right-wing anti-gay rhetoric, and anyone who cares about such issues should add the blog to their regular reading. Jim Burroway and Timothy Kincaid do fantastic (and much-needed) work, and Charles... if you haven't browsed through their site, I highly recommend it. I know you'll be impressed enough to use them as a resource in the future.

135 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 6:43:14pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Are these people that self-deluded? Do they not realize the logical outcome of their actions?

He's lying. I have no proof but I don't doubt it one iota. These theocratic/fundamentalist/dominionist evangelicals are evil. Gays are an easy target for them because of the widespread prejudice against gay people in general. I will ALWAYS oppose these evil goons. Always.

136 Millicent Islam  Mon, Jan 4, 2010 11:19:47pm

re: #134 MartiansAteMyCat

hey, welcome. Completely agree with you about BTB. I keep meaning to check them regularly. They're fantastic.

137 [deleted]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 11:35:16am
138 Rishonah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:44:58pm

This sort of story just scares me to death. We have close family members who are gay, and they have been harassed a number of times. I don't get it. They live quietly in their own home, they don't bother anyone, they keep up their property, they don't have loud parties, so who cares whom they love? They have been a couple for a quarter of a century, which is certainly longer than many heterosexual marriages have lasted.


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