Esquire: McCarthyism 2.0? The Right’s Battle with ACORN

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Bertha M. Lewis, CEO of the dreaded right wing boogeyman ACORN, is interviewed by Esquire’s John H. Richardson, and mentions Andrew Breitbart’s crazy accusation (that he finally retracted yesterday after leaving it hanging out there for 6 days): Acorn Group vs Fox News - Interview with Bertha Lewis of ACORN Group.

Still, Lewis seemed almost shell-shocked: “We can’t understand this obsession, and the vehemence. They just make up something and keep repeating it over and over — yesterday, I’m cleaning my house and I get a call, someone from my office saying ‘This guy from Breitbart is going crazy saying you were in the White House!’ Apparently some woman named Bertha Lewis visited the White House in September, so automatically they assumed — but it wasn’t me.”

Lewis’s take on the infamous “sting” videos engineered by Breitbart is also interesting:

By 2004, the hostility directed toward ACORN had become “very, very intense,” Lewis told me. But it was the Obama election in 2008 that really sent things into overdrive. “We said, ‘Oh, we’re just a surrogate for Obama — first there was Jeremiah Wright, then there was Bill Ayres, now it’s us.’ We thought, naively, they’re running a campaign, and it’ll all die down. But it really was surprising to us how intense it became. After almost forty years of making some very powerful enemies, it was like a perfect storm. And it hasn’t let up. It’s pretty amazing to me how the right can keep this obsession going.”

The most surreal moment, in her words, were the infamous “pimp and prostitute” videotapes. Although the videotapes do show ACORN employees giving tax and housing advice to people who seem to be flagrant criminals, Lewis insists that the videotape doesn’t show all that happened. “Our folks did say, ‘Do you want us to get the police, how can we help you?’ But when you look at it, the tapes are so clearly edited that the voiceover questions you hear are not what our folks are responding to.”

The larger question, in Lewis’s mind, was the idea of the sting itself. “You can disagree with registering people, with the policy stands we take — that’s fine, that’s what this country is about. But to make up this prurient scenario in order to keep us as a target, that is the most frightening. It’s incredible that folks would go that far.”

It does seem significant that the filmmakers have refused to release the raw footage, and unfair to condemn the entire organization based on the stupid behavior of a handful of low-level employees. (Imagine if the same standards were applied to Congress or the Catholic Church, much less a poverty group that relies on low-paid employees.) But the result of the videotapes was the vote in Congress pulling ACORN’s funding, a move that cost the group $2-3 million in government funding and maybe another $2-3 million in matching funds, Lewis says. “And not only did they say that you can’t apply for funding but also anyone associated with you — that sent out a chill.”

As a result, ACORN had to fire one hundred people (out of a total staff of about five hundred) and reduce another two hundred to part-time status. Among other things, this meant cuts in programs to help the poor with fire prevention, lead abatement, tax preparation, foreclosure counseling, and other housing problems that, again, needed listening to.

And this is — no other word for it — embarrassing.

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567 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:03:22pm
As a result, ACORN had to fire one hundred people (out of a total staff of about five hundred) and reduce another two hundred to part-time status.


Yet they still rule the world!

2 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:04:12pm

I will never cry any tears for ACORN, but it does appear that the tapes are not what I thought they were. If the raw footage is not released, i will henceforth consider them discredited.

3 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:07:22pm

If the tapes were edited and not true why did ACORN apologize so profusely for them afterward?

4 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:08:11pm

Back when I was lurking on this site prior to getting in, I was always somewhat amazed at the vitriol toward ACORN. As an organization, they must be classified as Mostly Harmless. They are like like franchises, like Subway. A loose national organization that attempts to empower the powerless through things like voter registration drives, access to public housing, &c. Are there individual excesses? Yes. A national conspiracy? No.

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:10:52pm

re: #4 austin_blue

Back when I was lurking on this site prior to getting in, I was always somewhat amazed at the vitriol toward ACORN. As an organization, they must be classified as Mostly Harmless. They are like like franchises, like Subway. A loose national organization that attempts to empower the powerless through things like voter registration drives, access to public housing, &c. Are there individual excesses? Yes. A national conspiracy? No.

No, they represent no conspiracy. They are simply a national left-liberal organization. As such, they are not a good thing, but not a boogyman either.

6 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:11:06pm

re: #3 Big Steve

because even the version she admits is worth apologizing for.

7 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:12:12pm

What the right has achieved with this crazy war against ACORN -- a lot of misery for the poor people that ACORN helps.

The organization has its problems, yes. But the relentless demonization does bear a resemblance to the tactics of Joe McCarthy.

And if you're wondering why the poor and the disenfranchised (yes, they really do exist) have such antipathy toward the Republican Party, here's your answer.

8 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:12:14pm

re: #4 austin_blue

The real problem is that enfranchised poor are anathema to the forces behind the modern conservative movement.


... Especially enfranchised poor minorities.

9 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:14:45pm

re: #8 windsagio

The real problem is that enfranchised poor are anathema to the forces behind the modern conservative movement.

... Especially enfranchised poor minorities.

I wouldn't go so far as to emphasize minorities. Poor whites are an important part of the R strategy. That's where the wedges go.

10 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:16:25pm

re: #9 austin_blue

Huh? Thats my point. They only really want poor minorities unable to participate. They know they have most of the group you're talking about buffaloed.

11 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:17:00pm

Honestly, isn't this simply the political game equivalent of the loon left's Halliburton and Blackwater? Not a big deal really when put in perspective.

12 dugmartsch  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:17:17pm

re: #3 Big Steve

If the tapes were edited and not true why did ACORN apologize so profusely for them afterward?

Cause they make ACORN look really bad and aren't so terribly edited that it's obvious at first glance that the questions being posed aren't the ones being posed in real time.

ACORN seems actually to be a pretty good organization that is unfortunately vulnerable because the target they'd really like to go after, the president, is invulnerable to the punishment they'd desire (impeachment or death).

13 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:17:30pm

all ACORN has to do is change their name and logo...problem solved...this is America, land of the ten second thought process

14 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:18:28pm

There are a lot of investigations ongoing against ACORN including one by the GAO. I will wait for the outcomes these investigations before I get bent outta shape one way or the other.

15 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #11 Blue Fin

Honestly, isn't this simply the political game equivalent of the loon left's Halliburton and Blackwater? Not a big deal really when put in perspective.

That is a great point.....I happen to know a lot of people who worked for KBR and were great people and were really hurt at the mud that was flung at their company and ipso facto at them.

16 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:19:52pm

re: #11 Blue Fin

Honestly, isn't this simply the political game equivalent of the loon left's Halliburton and Blackwater? Not a big deal really when put in perspective.


good lord! There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start!

Theres the Tu Quoque of course...

Then there's the false equivalence, (Compare the crimes Halliburton and especially Blackwater have been accused of compared to what Acorn has been accused of)

Then theres the general apples and oranges issue of comparing a social work group with freaking government contractors.

17 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:20:42pm

re: #16 windsagio

oh also;

the things that KBR/Blackwater (whatever they changed their name to after all those civilians got shot) are accused of do a ton more harm to the US than what Acorn's been accused of too. Forgot that part.

18 doubter4444  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:21:03pm

re: #3 Big Steve

If the tapes were edited and not true why did ACORN apologize so profusely for them afterward?

You don't really mean that, do you?
Of course they apologized, it was a national embarrassment. But does apologizing mean they were guilty?
The tapes were edited heavily and frankly, pretty crudely, anyone in the news business would never run with material like that.
Still, the workers were wrong to even give the posers ant reasonable response, other than get the fuck out.
The obsession with Acorn is symbolic of the impotent rage the far right feels now. It's misdirected and sad. But anger keeps you warm, I guess, and keeps your mind off having to think things through.

19 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:21:04pm

Also the part about congress cutting off funding for ACORN......isn't congress run by Democrats? Clearly they were uncomfortable supporting ACORN. So either there is something amiss with ACORN or the Democrats were big wussies and didn't support them when the heat was on. Neither is a great sign.

20 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:21:39pm

Looks like they're still trying to find a cause for Andrew Breitbart's mental problems.

21 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:22:29pm

re: #19 Big Steve

lol they're politicians. Of course they'd throw ACORN under the bus rather than look like they were supporting people associated with pimps and underaged prostitutes.

22 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:22:38pm

re: #18 doubter4444

You don't really mean that, do you?
Of course they apologized, it was a national embarrassment. But does apologizing mean they were guilty?
The tapes were edited heavily and frankly, pretty crudely, anyone in the news business would never run with material like that.
Still, the workers were wrong to even give the posers ant reasonable response, other than get the fuck out.
The obsession with Acorn is symbolic of the impotent rage the far right feels now. It's misdirected and sad. But anger keeps you warm, I guess, and keeps your mind off having to think things through.

I DO really mean it. It would have been a simple internal matter to resolve and within days ACORN could have stood up and said the tapes were misleading and they were not apologizing. However, that isn't how it went.

23 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:22:55pm

re: #19 Big Steve

Also the part about congress cutting off funding for ACORN...isn't congress run by Democrats? Clearly they were uncomfortable supporting ACORN. So either there is something amiss with ACORN or the Democrats were big wussies and didn't support them when the heat was on. Neither is a great sign.

donks are like that...it's a big buss

24 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:24:30pm

re: #16 windsagio

good lord! There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start!

Theres the Tu Quoque of course...

Then there's the false equivalence, (Compare the crimes Halliburton and especially Blackwater have been accused of compared to what Acorn has been accused of)

Then theres the general apples and oranges issue of comparing a social work group with freaking government contractors.

ACORN is (or at least has been) a government contractor as well. However, Haliburton at least provides useful services, ACORN actions, in my mind, are primarily counter productive.

25 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:25:59pm

re: #10 windsagio

Huh? Thats my point. They only really want poor minorities unable to participate. They know they have most of the group you're talking about buffaloed.

Sorry, wasn't clear. The R's want poor whites to stay exactly where they are on the economic ladder. Their policies aren't racial, they are economic. Their *politics* are all about wedging the poor whites from their economically challenged brethren.

26 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:26:12pm

re: #24 Dark_Falcon

Well what they claim to do is certainly positive >> Aside from these videos is there any serious evidence that they're falling down on that mission?


/also I thought what Halliburton did was get fat no-bid contracts ;)

27 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:27:27pm

re: #24 Dark_Falcon

ACORN is (or at least has been) a government contractor as well. However, Haliburton at least provides useful services, ACORN actions, in my mind, are primarily counter productive.

Not for nothing, but I was always surprised that I didn't hear more outrage against Halliburton from the right for the shoddy work that resulted in soldiers being electrocuted.

28 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:27:47pm

re: #25 austin_blue

I'd say there are 2 parts; theres the corporate side, which I'd essentially agree with you about, then theres the crazy socon/racial side that we've seen so much of over the last year. As far as I can tell, those guys would love nothing more than a return to Jim Crow.

29 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:28:51pm

re: #16 windsagio

good lord! There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start!

Theres the Tu Quoque of course...

Then there's the false equivalence, (Compare the crimes Halliburton and especially Blackwater have been accused of compared to what Acorn has been accused of)

Then theres the general apples and oranges issue of comparing a social work group with freaking government contractors.

No one was making the argument of two wrongs equal a right. The argument is that creating and evil empire among the oppositions camp is not exactly a republican invention.....it is standard politics. So why act all bee-stung over the treatment of ACORN?

30 doubter4444  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:29:39pm

re: #22 Big Steve

I DO really mean it. It would have been a simple internal matter to resolve and within days ACORN could have stood up and said the tapes were misleading and they were not apologizing. However, that isn't how it went.

Come on. A simple internal matter?
With every right wing blog screaming bloody murder?
With Congress people speaking out about it within hours of the videos being posted?
With comments from armchair warriors who literally wanted to kill the workers on screen?
I get you don't like them, I don't either really, though I do think some of the issues they are trying to tackle are important.
But to blithely say that the leaders of Acorn could of just stood up and claimed they were "edited" to take them out of context is a joke.

31 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:29:40pm

re: #11 Blue Fin

Honestly, isn't this simply the political game equivalent of the loon left's Halliburton and Blackwater? Not a big deal really when put in perspective.

It's pretty similar. The difference is that Haliburton and Blackwater were serious companies which did have influence and money to throw around if they wanted to . ACORN is small and insignificant.

32 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:11pm

Hence forth, I shall refer to ACORN as SPECTRE.
/silly wingularity is silly. ;)

33 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:12pm

re: #19 Big Steve

Also the part about congress cutting off funding for ACORN...isn't congress run by Democrats? Clearly they were uncomfortable supporting ACORN. So either there is something amiss with ACORN or the Democrats were big wussies and didn't support them when the heat was on. Neither is a great sign.

I think the point is that ACORN is completely expendable. Dems could throw them under the bus because they really aren't important.

34 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:13pm

re: #11 Blue Fin

Ummm.... didn't Blackwater shoot up a bunch of civilians or at least be accused of it? I think that makes them significantly bigger things to be worked up about than ACORN given how that kind of thing screws up our ability to win the hearts and minds of Iraqies...

35 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:31pm

re: #29 Big Steve

How many bills of attainder were passed against Halliburton?

36 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:44pm

re: #16 windsagio

No Red Herring here my friend. Sounds like you have a bit of an ideological ax to grind. No organization is as bad or as good as reported.

37 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:50pm

re: #7 Charles

What the right has achieved with this crazy war against ACORN -- a lot of misery for the poor people that ACORN helps.

The organization has its problems, yes. But the relentless demonization does bear a resemblance to the tactics of Joe McCarthy.

And if you're wondering why the poor and the disenfranchised (yes, they really do exist) have such antipathy toward the Republican Party, here's your answer.

I didn't know that Acorn providing a room for my mother while she's in Seattle getting chemotherapy was a vast plot.

38 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:31:56pm

re: #28 windsagio

I'd say there are 2 parts; theres the corporate side, which I'd essentially agree with you about, then theres the crazy socon/racial side that we've seen so much of over the last year. As far as I can tell, those guys would love nothing more than a return to Jim Crow.

Well, my read is that the corporate side is doing everything they can to push the crazies forward. Helps their agenda, which is to wedge natural allies (the poor as a whole) into disparate, feuding camps.

39 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:32:42pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

small and insignificant with a 5.2-billion dollar budget....

40 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:32:46pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

It's pretty similar. The difference is that Haliburton and Blackwater were serious companies which did have influence and money to throw around if they wanted to . ACORN is small and insignificant.

Sorry, but ACORN is not insignificant. They have major influence at the local level in quite a few cities, including Chicago. They've generally flown under the radar nationally, but they've got a good bit of power.

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:32:49pm

There is nothing like repeating lies over and over... they get stuck in the minds of the public because the public will hear what it already decided must be true and not let anything like mere facts dislodge the smear they always wanted to hear. This is always made worse when people are angry.

When people decide they hate someone, they take joy in hearing the worst things about them. It is a form of lashing out and more and more the right has been defining itself by its fears and agers.

42 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:32:52pm

re: #11 Blue Fin
That's a real reach in trying for a moral equivalency.

43 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:33:35pm

re: #29 Big Steve

its not really the treatment of ACORN. They have to deal with their own mistakes. Its the craziness of the comparison you made.

Nobody's accusing ACORN of "Showing Callous disregard for the lives of their employees" or "Killing 17 unarmed civilians".

44 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:34:26pm

re: #43 windsagio

Or 'coverup of a gangrape'.

45 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:34:46pm

re: #7 Charles

What the right has achieved with this crazy war against ACORN -- a lot of misery for the poor people that ACORN helps.

The organization has its problems, yes. But the relentless demonization does bear a resemblance to the tactics of Joe McCarthy.

And if you're wondering why the poor and the disenfranchised (yes, they really do exist) have such antipathy toward the Republican Party, here's your answer.

There was a joke that went back to my grandfather's day...

"I hope someday to be rich enough to be a real Republican."

46 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:34:54pm

re: #39 WindHorse

Can you cite that sum?
Is it all government money?

47 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:35:08pm

re: #44 Obdicut


I forgot that one! Telling a pimp how to get cheap housing is just as bad tho' right?


RIGHT?!

48 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:35:30pm

re: #44 Obdicut

Or 'coverup of a gangrape'.

hadn't heard that one...what's the story there?

49 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:35:57pm

re: #46 Mr.Boots

Can you cite that sum?
Is it all government money?

mostly Soros's money

50 [deleted]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:36:22pm
51 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:36:24pm

Charles-apparently some still associate you with the right:

Someone should find a different Andrew Breitbart or a different Michael Savage or a different Charles Johnson in the visitor log just to illustrate to these numbskulls that names are not unique.

From the comments on the media matters link you gave.

52 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:36:46pm

re: #46 Mr.Boots

no.... it's our money.

53 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:37:05pm

re: #48 albusteve

The incident that Franken wrote his amendment, after.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

54 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:37:12pm

re: #49 albusteve

You mean the left's Rupert Murdoch.

55 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:37:57pm

re: #50 WindHorse

Do you realize you just linked to a White Supremacist site?

56 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:02pm

re: #36 Blue Fin

I'm not your friend, guy!


*cough*

I'm not sure you should be projecting an agenda on me.

Just compare what Halliburton/Xe have been accused of and then what ACORN has been accused of.

Then come back and tell me if you think its really a reasonable comparison.

57 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:10pm

re: #52 WindHorse

re: #46 Mr.Boots

no... it's our money.

Not even close to what Halliburton and KBR have stolen.

58 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:12pm

re: #42 Mr.Boots

Look, I live in the heart of the South and this quest by the far right to damage ACORN gets little news and acknowledgment to and from the masses. It is not resonating...period. This story seems to be more important than it is.

59 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:26pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

no.... I didn't. Sorry about that.

60 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:40pm

re: #53 Obdicut

The incident that Franken wrote his amendment, after.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

oh so an allegation is now a conviction?

61 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:38:58pm

re: #57 Mr.Boots

your turn to cite....

62 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:39:33pm

re: #53 Obdicut

The incident that Franken wrote his amendment, after.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

ah...I remember now

63 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:39:45pm

re: #59 WindHorse

Look at their front page. Browse around. Much of the propaganda about acorn is racially motivated.

64 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:40:03pm

re: #54 Mr.Boots

You mean the left's Rupert Murdoch.

It's not quite the same thing. Rupert Murdoch owns and operates media outlets whose main aim is profit. He has a lot of power from owning them, but his main objective is money. George Soros gives money away to groups who share his ideology. His main objective is to advance political causes, not make a buck.

65 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:40:17pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

oh zing. Be careful what you link to!

re: #58 Blue Fin

oh man, its hard not to make a terrible regionalist joke here. I think I've succeeded tho'!

66 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:40:23pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I'll pass... but thank you for the info Kilgore.

Sorry Charles....

67 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:40:30pm

re: #60 Big Steve


We're talking about accusations, Big Steve. You know about the case, though, right?

re: #63 Killgore Trout

That site is absolutely disgusting.

68 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:41:23pm

re: #59 WindHorse

no... I didn't. Sorry about that.

Maybe you should reconsider the kinds of websites that you think reinforce your views.

That really WAS a white supremacist site. If you post something like that again, it will be the last time.

69 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:41:31pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

Thats the interesting comparison, the ideology feeding the money versus the money feeding the ideology.


Hmm... that isn't clear. Let me try again.

Using money to promote an ideology vs using an ideology to make a ton of money.

Thats better!

70 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:41:42pm

re: #56 windsagio

I'm not your friend, guy!

*cough*

Tell Canada to go back on strike.

/South Park reference

71 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:14pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I am not inherently against Acorn.... I just remembered the 5-billion in the news back during the bailout days.... and I was just thinking that with that budget, I wouldn't exactly call them small and insignificant.....

72 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:15pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

sorry, I'm obsessed with that stupid scene. This is like the 5th time I"ve referenced it on here :(

73 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:16pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Do you realize you just linked to a White Supremacist site?

Surprise! They're defending Glenn Beck.

74 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:21pm

re: #69 windsagio

Thats the interesting comparison, the ideology feeding the money versus the money feeding the ideology.

Hmm... that isn't clear. Let me try again.

Using money to promote an ideology vs using an ideology to make a ton of money.

Thats better!

Yes, it is. Thank you.

75 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:36pm

re: #65 windsagio

The point is that ultimately the right and the politicians that they influence will drop the smearing as interest fades and it is fading.

76 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:38pm

re: #68 Charles

I honestly had no idea.

77 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:42:44pm

re: #67 Obdicut

We're talking about accusations, Big Steve. You know about the case, though, right?

Yes.....

Over two years later, the Justice Department has brought no criminal charges in the matter.
78 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:43:23pm

re: #72 windsagio

sorry, I'm obsessed with that stupid scene. This is like the 5th time I"ve referenced it on here :(

You're fine. Any one with a good sense of humor can enjoy South Park. It's a great show.

79 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:43:51pm

re: #75 Blue Fin

you know, mea culpa time, I totally misread your post above. I feel silly.

80 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:44:03pm

re: #72 windsagio

sorry, I'm obsessed with that stupid scene. This is like the 5th time I"ve referenced it on here :(


:)
81 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:44:18pm

re: #11 Blue Fin

But aren't Haliburton and Blackwater, for the most part, untouchable?

82 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:44:46pm

re: #77 Big Steve

At the risk of being a little tinfoil-hatty, I suspect that the government is more than a little worried about its OWN liability in the cases, and has a pretty strong interest in burying them all.

83 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:44:53pm

re: #65 windsagio

oh zing. Be careful what you link to!

re: #58 Blue Fin

oh man, its hard not to make a terrible regionalist joke here. I think I've succeeded tho'!

Go ahead, let it out. You may get ulcerous otherwise, and besides we're used to it.

84 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:44:59pm

re: #81 eclectic infidel

But aren't Haliburton and Blackwater, for the most part, untouchable?

Yes.

85 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:45:45pm

re: #71 WindHorse

I am not inherently against Acorn... I just remembered the 5-billion in the news back during the bailout days... and I was just thinking that with that budget, I wouldn't exactly call them small and insignificant...

It was a bogus story. Completely fake, made up, fiction, etc.

86 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:45:59pm

re: #79 windsagio

No problem.

87 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:46:23pm

re: #81 eclectic infidel

But aren't Haliburton and Blackwater, for the most part, untouchable?

niether really has any competition...they are both big dogs the feds have to rely on....but I don't think they are exempt in anyway in trms of criminal activity or lawsuits

88 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:46:47pm

Oh and one more problem with comparing ACORN and Haliburton, wasn't Dick Cheney like the CEO of Haliburton, I know he was a community organizer, but was was Barrack Obama ever the CEO of ACORN?

89 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:47:09pm

re: #87 albusteve

I thought they had no sue/no prosecute provisions in their contracts. I remember that it came up in the Halliburton rape case.

90 WindHorse  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:47:27pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

fair enough. I didn't realize that. I better stick to what I do best.... working more.... commenting less....

91 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:47:32pm

re: #89 windsagio

the question is whether those provisions are legal... but afaik htat has yet to be decided for sure.

92 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:47:47pm

re: #81 eclectic infidel

But aren't Haliburton and Blackwater, for the most part, untouchable?

Not entirely. The US did try to prosecute the Blackwater guards who fired on a crowd in Baghdad, but the investigators botched the case by building it on statements given under promise of limited immunity, thus prompting the judge to dismiss the charges.

93 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:47:52pm

ACORN

Budget $25 Million USD, 10% federal funding[2]

94 Blue Fin  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:48:07pm

re: #81 eclectic infidel

The current administration can answer your question very quickly I imagine.

95 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:48:34pm

re: #82 windsagio

At the risk of being a little tinfoil-hatty, I suspect that the government is more than a little worried about its OWN liability in the cases, and has a pretty strong interest in burying them all.

Thats always a possibility. However, the DOJ has a history of strongly going after these types of things and of the two years at least one has been with a different administration which certainly would score heavy political points is they could make the case.

96 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:48:58pm

re: #90 WindHorse

fair enough. I didn't realize that. I better stick to what I do best... working more... commenting less...

Feel free to comment, just be careful with your sources. There's a lot of BS on the internet, make sure it doesn't sucker you.

97 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:49:08pm

re: #89 windsagio

I thought they had no sue/no prosecute provisions in their contracts. I remember that it came up in the Halliburton rape case.

Their employees cannot sue them because of their contracts. They can't be prosecuted because they were in Iraq.

98 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:49:33pm

I don't know if anyone's seen this yet or not, but Pete's not happy about being behind on the use of the intertubes.

99 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:49:38pm

re: #81 eclectic infidel

But aren't Haliburton and Blackwater, for the most part, untouchable?

Funny, they used to say that about GM...

100 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:49:56pm

re: #95 Big Steve

wait what?

It was my impression that the DOJ had a history of covering its ears with its hands and going "LALALALALALALA" when cases like this came up...

re: #97 JasonA

Yeah that.

101 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:50:10pm

re: #93 Olsonist

ACORN

Budget $25 Million USD, 10% federal funding[2]

Wait... where the hell is the rest of that 5 billion coming from?!?!?!?!?!?

102 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:22pm

re: #101 JasonA

George Soros?

103 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:31pm

re: #93 Olsonist

ACORN

Budget $25 Million USD, 10% federal funding[2]

And typical of the gaspers to say that they were going to get $5 billion......

104 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:35pm

Quick Commercial Break!

LGF Reader have to see this! The Skiff Reader

Review of the Skiff Reader

Skiff’s killer features are -

1. The largest eReader display – The screen is 11.5 inches diagonal (that’s 29.21 cm) and considerably bigger than the 9.7″ Kindle DX screen. It’s also bigger than the screen of the Plastic Logic Que.
2. The thinnest eReader – An impressive 0.27 inches (0.68 cm).
3. Extremely durable – There’s a metal foil backplane for the eInk which means no cracking or shattering. The housing is magnesium adding to the sturdiness.
4. Very high screen resolution – Hearst claim the screen has 4 times as many pixels as most ebook readers. It’s 1200 by 1600 pixels which is really good and there are 174 pixels per inch.
5. Full touch screen - Supports both finger and stylus operation.
6. Long battery life – 1 week battery life. They do say that this assumes periodic wireless use and that the recharging time is 2-3 hours.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread....

105 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:37pm

re: #84 Gus 802

Yes.

Wait are we really saying that the attacks made by democrats against Halliburton are ok? That ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton were legitimate?

106 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:54pm

re: #101 JasonA
Wingnut fantasies

107 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:58pm

re: #102 Olsonist

George Soros?

108 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:51:59pm

re: #77 Big Steve

They can't, legally. And Halliburton was blocking the civil trial because of the arbitration clause.

Have you followed the story?

109 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:52:20pm

re: #103 austin_blue

And typical of the gaspers to say that they were going to get $5 billion...

it's sekrit $$$

110 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:52:38pm

re: #103 austin_blue

I mean really. It took me all of a minute to look this shit up.

111 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:53:11pm

re: #105 jayzee

All is a funny word, and has no place here. Pretty dishonest to put in actually.

But yes, many of the attacks against Halliburton are okay. And many think its a shame that the Obama administration isn't doing more to go after their abuses.

112 Lateralis  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:53:49pm

re: #109 albusteve

I'm nervous now I hope this isn't a racist website...[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

113 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:54:22pm

re: #96 Dark_Falcon

Feel free to comment, just be careful with your sources. There's a lot of BS on the internet, make sure it doesn't sucker you.

Yep. Just because it's on a computer monitor doesn't mean that it's true.

Just googled Acorn Voter Registration Fraud. There's a page on PJ Media from October, purporting to be a bullet-pointed list of misdeeds. And there's a page on Truthout, trumpeting a House Judiciary Committee report, which they say clears ACORN of any wrong-doing.

114 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:54:33pm

re: #106 Mr.Boots

Wingnut fantasies

What do Wingnut tears taste like?

115 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:54:38pm

re: #110 Olsonist

well have some sympathy. You did the research knowing your position would be supported. Would you do it if you knew it was a lie?

//I kid, of course you would!

116 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:54:44pm

re: #104 SteveC

Dude......not cool. Unwritten rule.....only the host gets to advertise around here. His site his playground.

117 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:55:49pm

re: #112 Lateralis

I'm nervous now I hope this isn't a racist website...[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

don't know...the was talk of an $80m (?) fund back during the Stimulus debates

118 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:55:59pm

re: #114 JasonA

re: #106 Mr.Boots


What do Wingnut tears taste like?

Hopefully, bitter, very bitter.

119 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:56:46pm

By the way speaking of Haliburton, does anyone else think that the idea of No Bid Contracts is sort of anathema to the concept of a free market?

120 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:56:54pm

OT: another blog - Hercules Heaves - has posted a story about google molly-coddling Islam. Briefly, the claim is that if you google "Christinaity is", google will suggest "Christianity is bullshit". Similar results for all other major religions except Islam. Type in "Islam is" and google suggests nothing.

The blogger goes on to claim that google provides pornography - I'll take her word for it - as well as allowing Christianity to be defamed along with Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism but when it comes to Islam, google molly-coddles them.

Here's an experiment for the brave. Enter the words "peanut butter is" on google and you will see that peanut butter is also defamed (ah, finally my turn to apologize to Jimmy Carter). But if you google on "gefilte fish is", google does not suggest anything. Google's conduct in all things jihad and gefilte fish has been unconscionable. Is google worried about protecting chrain-ian gefilte fish? I demand an answer.

121 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:57:00pm

re: #113 The Sanity Inspector

Yep. Just because it's on a computer monitor doesn't mean that it's true.

Just googled Acorn Voter Registration Fraud. There's a page on PJ Media from October, purporting to be a bullet-pointed list of misdeeds. And there's a page on Truthout, trumpeting a House Judiciary Committee report, which they say clears ACORN of any wrong-doing.

You can't trust PJ Media. And it gives me no joy to type those words.

122 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:57:40pm

re: #112 Lateralis

I'm nervous now I hope this isn't a racist website...[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

No, you're okay. FactCheck is good folks.

123 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:57:51pm

re: #116 Big Steve

Dude...not cool. Unwritten rule...only the host gets to advertise around here. His site his playground.

I have no financial interest in the eReader... It's a tech thing that looks really cool, and I thought I'd share.

124 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:08pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

heh, that ship has sailed, long ago.

125 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:19pm

re: #71 WindHorse

I am not inherently against Acorn... I just remembered the 5-billion in the news back during the bailout days... and I was just thinking that with that budget, I wouldn't exactly call them small and insignificant...

I do believe you remember wrong.

ACORN's annual budget is $25 million, spokesman Brian Kettenring said. Of that, about 10 percent is federal money and a much smaller share comes from state and local governments, he said. The budget covers ACORN's national office, its state and local chapters and the ACORN Institute, Kettenring said.
[Link: www.chron.com...]

I think what you were remembering was the wild accusation from the right that ACORN was going to reap huge benefits from the bailout bill.

126 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:21pm

re: #110 Olsonist

I mean really. It took me all of a minute to look this shit up.

State the lie. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Pretty soon, it's common knowledge.

Which is why common knowledge is often an oxymoron.

But, hey! It works for climate change, Intelligent Design, Nirthers, Troofers, and the modern Republican Party!

127 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:23pm

re: #105 jayzee

Wait are we really saying that the attacks made by democrats against Halliburton are ok? That ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton were legitimate?

That's quite a a leap you've taken. That is if you're being serious.

I don't know the specifics but when a company is involved in national security interests and endeavors that the normal legals means of regress aren't apparent. It's not the same to be involved in war time activities as it is to say a public or private project. Many of the contracts rewarded to Haliburon in Iraq for example were done on a no-bid basis. So if you're running an operation that is classified or secret you won't get the same transparency for obvious reasons.

128 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:32pm

re: #123 SteveC

Whatever the reason, it still sucks to read adverts on a blog.

129 webevintage  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:40pm

re: #56 windsagio

I'm not your friend, guy!

I'm not your guy, buddy!

130 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:42pm

re: #117 albusteve

don't know...the was talk of an $80m (?) fund back during the Stimulus debates

I'd call this actionable intelligence.

131 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:58:58pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

By the way speaking of Haliburton, does anyone else think that the idea of No Bid Contracts is sort of anathema to the concept of a free market?

Yeah, & I was really pissed when Clinton started that stuff...

132 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:59:06pm

re: #111 windsagio

All is a funny word, and has no place here. Pretty dishonest to put in actually.

But yes, many of the attacks against Halliburton are okay. And many think its a shame that the Obama administration isn't doing more to go after their abuses.

OK we can go with most, or many-you believe many of the conspiracy theories about Halliburton and Cheney. How's this as a logical fallacy for you?

I see many fellow conservatives here condemning atrocious behavior whether it be on the left, or the right. While my left leaning friends seem to still justify it on their part, condemning it only when done by an adversary.

133 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:59:50pm

re: #123 SteveC

Your links were clearly to ads.

134 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:59:53pm

re: #104 SteveC

Cool...does it fit in your pocket?

135 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:00:06pm

re: #132 jayzee

Wait, you think the left-leaning people on this blog-- however you define that-- are all prone to that behavior?

136 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:00:31pm

re: #123 SteveC

I have no financial interest in the eReader... It's a tech thing that looks really cool, and I thought I'd share.

I actually like my kindle because it's sized perfectly to fit into my purse. That one would be too big.

137 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:01:06pm

re: #132 jayzee

No, it doesn't work that way. You're not bringing up this stuff in good faith. The way you phrased initially shows that.

You can't expect people to buy into your trick like that. Its better to call your bluff than to try to defend these mythical positions you make up.

138 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:01:33pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

By the way speaking of Haliburton, does anyone else think that the idea of No Bid Contracts is sort of anathema to the concept of a free market?

Free markets aren't in play for the usual Halliburton/KBR military support contracts. They are passed off as critical to rapidly-arising contingencies. The only real competition for Halliburton are the DoD military and civilian workforces, which have been decimated since the Regan years.

139 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:01:40pm

re: #128 windsagio

Whatever the reason, it still sucks to read adverts on a blog.

HELLO?!?!? MSNBC? Amazon?

140 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:01:44pm

re: #133 Big Steve

Your links were clearly to ads.

I've never heard an official policy from Charles about that...might have been something I missed

141 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:02:10pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

By the way speaking of Haliburton, does anyone else think that the idea of No Bid Contracts is sort of anathema to the concept of a free market?

The government has ALWAYS accepted certain work without bids. When they want something done the will sometimes pre-identify who they want to do it. This goes back at least as far as WWII and maybe earlier.

142 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:02:32pm

re: #139 SteveC

I amazingly can tolerate ads on the periphery that make the Host money, and support the service. Ads in the text that I'm tricked into starting reading are a whole different scene.

143 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:03:14pm

re: #141 Big Steve

The government has ALWAYS accepted certain work without bids. When they want something done the will sometimes pre-identify who they want to do it. This goes back at least as far as WWII and maybe earlier.

and capabilities do have quite a bit to do with it.

144 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:03:34pm

re: #140 albusteve

heh, I'm just saying its obnoxious, not our place to tell people what they can or can't post :P

145 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:03:41pm

re: #140 albusteve

I've never heard an official policy from Charles about that...might have been something I missed

I didn't read or click through to the ad...when I saw 11.5 inch display, I thought, "I've already got a fuckin' computer!"

146 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #144 windsagio

heh, I'm just saying its obnoxious, not our place to tell people what they can or can't post :P

You can't post that!
___/

147 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #144 windsagio

heh, I'm just saying its obnoxious, not our place to tell people what they can or can't post :P

there you have it

148 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:17pm

It looked like spam.
It read like spam.

It was spam. You were spamming the blog.

149 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:18pm

My take: lizards like cool gadgets, but it's good form to link to reviews of the gadget or objective articles and not the company ads....

150 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:26pm

re: #127 Gus 802

That's quite a a leap you've taken. That is if you're being serious.

I don't know the specifics but when a company is involved in national security interests and endeavors that the normal legals means of regress aren't apparent. It's not the same to be involved in war time activities as it is to say a public or private project. Many of the contracts rewarded to Haliburon in Iraq for example were done on a no-bid basis. So if you're running an operation that is classified or secret you won't get the same transparency for obvious reasons.

First off, I'm usually being sarcastic and not entirely serious. That said, I am sure there are a lot of legitimate gripes against Halliburton. I wasn't really speaking to those anymore than those legitimate gripes against ACORN. The truth is both organizations have been/are used as symbols of the GOP (Halliburton) and the Dems (ACORN).

151 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:04:35pm

re: #143 brookly red

and capabilities do have quite a bit to do with it.

Yes, well, when KBR can't do basic wiring safely, it's time to find some other entity that can.

152 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:05:10pm

re: #120 Stuart Leviton

I entered "Islam the religion of", and google's auto-suggestions were 50/50 cheers and jeers. Substituting Judaism and Christianity generated no suggestions.

I've never really bought into the theory of Google deploying biased algorithms. Seek, and google will find.

153 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:05:48pm

re: #149 Thanos

My take: lizards like cool gadgets, but it's good form to link to reviews of the gadget or objective articles and not the company ads...

Fine point.

154 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:05:59pm

re: #150 jayzee

theres that false equivalence again! sheesh!

155 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:06:32pm

re: #142 windsagioHi windsagio, may I inquire as to why you down-dinged my #120? I was trying to disprove the claim that google is in a conspiracy.

Was it that I apologized to Jimmy Carter because a google search on "peanut butter is" came up with "peanut butter is unhealthy"?

156 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:06:41pm

re: #143 brookly red

and capabilities do have quite a bit to do with it.

it has everything to do with it...Clinton jumped in bed with Halliburton and they just went all out...they can do stuff nobody can even think about....one of the reasons they have a bit of a sinister rep, imo....they are just gigantic

157 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:07:15pm

re: #149 Thanos

My take: lizards like cool gadgets, but it's good form to link to reviews of the gadget or objective articles and not the company ads...

Thanos to the rescue!...makes sense

158 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:07:24pm

re: #155 Stuart Leviton

Oh, posting it at all was lame I thought. We all know its obvious crap, and it didn't need debunking OR repeating.

159 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:07:36pm

re: #60 Big Steve

oh so an allegation is now a conviction?

You mean like ACORN has been convicted?

160 mich-again  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:08:06pm
Among other things, this meant cuts in programs to help the poor with fire prevention, lead abatement, tax preparation, foreclosure counseling, and other housing problems that, again, needed listening to.

They forgot the part about voter registration drives that were lets just say "problematic". Nothing is more un-American than tampering with our free elections and there is plenty of evidence that Acorn employees were engaged in doing just by means of their outrageous voter registration drives. ACORN's reputation is forever ruined and to me that group will always be synonomous with fraud. They taunted the dog on the other side of the fence and now they can't figure out why that dog always snarls at them.

161 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:08:15pm

re: #137 windsagio

No, it doesn't work that way. You're not bringing up this stuff in good faith. The way you phrased initially shows that.

You can't expect people to buy into your trick like that. Its better to call your bluff than to try to defend these mythical positions you make up.

Um, yeah it does. I didn't bring up Halliburton. What was my mythical position? Damn dragons.

162 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:08:30pm

re: #148 Olsonist

It looked like spam.
It read like spam.

It was spam. You were spamming the blog.

it's a small thing...I've done worse and survived

163 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:08:47pm

re: #152 The Sanity InspectorI fully agree with you. That was why I googled on "gefilte fish is".

164 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:09:06pm

re: #149 Thanos

My take: lizards like cool gadgets, but it's good form to link to reviews of the gadget or objective articles and not the company ads...

re: #153 austin_blue

Fine point.

re: #148 Olsonist

It looked like spam.
It read like spam.

It was spam. You were spamming the blog.

I think the thing looks cool. But if the general consensus is that was a spam link, I sincerely apologize.

165 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:09:35pm

WAR WITH EURASIA?

166 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:09:35pm

re: #158 windsagioSo that earns a down-ding rather than just ignoring it?

167 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:09:39pm

re: #126 austin_blue

State the lie. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Pretty soon, it's common knowledge.

Which is why common knowledge is often an oxymoron.

But, hey! It works for climate change, Intelligent Design, Nirthers, Troofers, and the modern Republican Party!

Do you mean climate change denial?

168 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:09:48pm

re: #160 mich-again
d or actual tampering?
Where have they been convicted of frau

169 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:02pm

re: #159 b_sharp

You mean like ACORN has been convicted?

Quite often, yes. In PR terms: If you're accused of certain crimes, you're guilty. It's not fair, it punishes people who have committed no crimes (As a rule, I do not use the word "innocent" in reference to adults), but it's the way it is.

170 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:22pm

re: #154 windsagio

theres that false equivalence again! sheesh!

No-I didn't bring it up. Read the thread before you accuse me of something. That is why I asked the initial question. And there is no false equivalence and if the comparison is introduced by someone else I can't address it? You got a rule book I can follow?

171 Mr.Boots  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:22pm

re: #168 Mr.Boots

Sorry, cursor jumped.

172 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:37pm

re: #165 MandyManners

WAR WITH EURASIA?

Elaborate?

173 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:41pm

re: #150 jayzee

First off, I'm usually being sarcastic and not entirely serious. That said, I am sure there are a lot of legitimate gripes against Halliburton. I wasn't really speaking to those anymore than those legitimate gripes against ACORN. The truth is both organizations have been/are used as symbols of the GOP (Halliburton) and the Dems (ACORN).

Right. To that I would say that no, ACORN doesn't run the Democratic Party and is not part of a shadow government. Conversely, Haliburton doesn't run the Republican Party and is not part of a shadow government. Neither of these entities will or has contributed to the fall of the republic.

174 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:10:53pm

re: #164 SteveC

You are forgiven....and you also have a cool nickname!

175 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:11:22pm

re: #161 jayzee

Wait are we really saying that the attacks made by democrats against Halliburton are ok? That ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton were legitimate?

That was your first post in the exchange. I think its pretty clear that its in bad faith. the "mythical position" is proposing that someone said/thinks 'ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton are Legitimate".

176 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:12:33pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Quite often, yes. In PR terms: If you're accused of certain crimes, you're guilty. It's not fair, it punishes people who have committed no crimes (As a rule, I do not use the word "innocent" in reference to adults), but it's the way it is.

For confirmation, just ask the 2006 Duke Lacrosse team.

177 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:12:35pm

re: #166 Stuart Leviton

Why get so butthurt over it? A downding barely matters. Just let it go, man. Its not worth arguing over.

178 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:12:42pm

re: #173 Gus 802

Right. To that I would say that no, ACORN doesn't run the Democratic Party and is not part of a shadow government. Conversely, Haliburton doesn't run the Republican Party and is not part of a shadow government. Neither of these entities will or has contributed to the fall of the republic.

Good points to remember. Upding.

179 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:12:55pm

Florida GOP Chairman Resigns
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Check the conservative love in the comments:

of course gay Crist has more money, he collected tons and tons of stolen monies from the thieving Jewish Avenger Rothstein ponzi scheme....he is finished in the primary....Rubio will will win easily and then go on to stomp the dem candidate Meek....Meek will carry the Floriduh illegal Haitian vote and that is all....And on top of that, the dirty Jewish Avenger money will also drag down the dem governor candidate Sink and allow the repub candidate Taliban Bill to win the Floriduh governor race....I look forward to voting for the hick from Alaska in 2012 for POTUS..this country blows and deserves everything that happens to it!...right wing taliban repubs.... crying in the rain, never met a tax increase they didn't like dems....screw all of you.
180 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:13:02pm

re: #135 Obdicut

Wait, you think the left-leaning people on this blog-- however you define that-- are all prone to that behavior?

No sir. I don't . But there are a lot. Maybe it's youthful exuberance.

181 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:13:17pm

re: #156 albusteve

... they can do stuff nobody can even think about...one of the reasons they have a bit of a sinister rep, imo...they are just gigantic

Halliburton

The have a $25B market cap and with about $4.9B in revenue. So they are about the same size as ACORN. Wikipedia lists more than 50 other oil field services companies.

182 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:13:18pm

re: #175 windsagio

That was your first post in the exchange. I think its pretty clear that its in bad faith. the "mythical position" is proposing that someone said/thinks 'ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton are Legitimate".

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

183 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:13:25pm

PETA... you're not helping. (Not that you ever have...)
PETA Features Michelle Obama In Anti-Fur Ad

184 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:13:28pm

re: #174 Big Steve

You are forgiven...and you also have a cool nickname!

Of course we do, only the best and the brightest get named Steve!

185 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:14:05pm

re: #179 Thanos

Florida GOP Chairman Resigns
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Check the conservative love in the comments:

That story is just scary. The lunatics have officially taken over the asylum in the Sunshine State.

186 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:14:16pm

re: #182 brookly red

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

re: #11 Blue Fin

Honestly, isn't this simply the political game equivalent of the loon left's Halliburton and Blackwater? Not a big deal really when put in perspective.

Ask and ye shall receive!!!

187 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:14:18pm

re: #172 Varek Raith

Elaborate?

Very.

188 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:14:48pm

re: #179 Thanos

"Jewish Avenger?"

189 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:14:53pm

re: #179 Thanos

Florida GOP Chairman Resigns
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Check the conservative love in the comments:

Prepare for full hate on. Engage.
/frakking lowlifes.

190 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:01pm

re: #181 Olsonist

Halliburton

The have a $25B market cap and with about $4.9B in revenue. So they are about the same size as ACORN. Wikipedia lists more than 50 other oil field services companies.

Where did you find ACORN having assets near $28B?

191 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:03pm

re: #177 windsagio

Why get so butthurt over it? A downding barely matters. Just let it go, man. Its not worth arguing over.

If I may ask one more question, if downdinging barely matters then why would you want to barely insult someone? I am just curious about your values.

192 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:09pm

re: #181 Olsonist

Halliburton

The have a $25B market cap and with about $4.9B in revenue. So they are about the same size as ACORN. Wikipedia lists more than 50 other oil field services companies.

None of them have the full capabilities and resources that Haliburton does, when it's really a big ass job there's only three, and two of them are not US co's.

193 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:15pm

re: #160 mich-again

They forgot the part about voter registration drives that were lets just say "problematic". Nothing is more un-American than tampering with our free elections and there is plenty of evidence that Acorn employees were engaged in doing just by means of their outrageous voter registration drives. ACORN's reputation is forever ruined and to me that group will always be synonomous with fraud. They taunted the dog on the other side of the fence and now they can't figure out why that dog always snarls at them.

Too bad you drank the Kool-aid. Numerous organizations were involved in voter registration. Unfortunately, you believed that collecting voter registration cards is the same as voter fraud. You misunderstand the process. Once the cards are collected, it is the job of the Registrar to determine if the submitted cards are legitimate, not the collectors. If fraud occurred, it was at the Registrar's office, not at the collection level. ACORN did not work in the Registrars' offices in the various districts where they collected cards.

Sorry if that harshes your mellow.

194 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:41pm

re: #186 windsagio

Ask and ye shall receive!!!

and tomorrow's lotto numbers?

195 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:15:53pm

re: #175 windsagio

That was your first post in the exchange. I think its pretty clear that its in bad faith. the "mythical position" is proposing that someone said/thinks 'ALL the conspiracy theories about Darth Cheney and Halliburton are Legitimate".

I asked the question of Gus. And it was a question. Not a mythical position. Again, it was my question to a previous comment that mentioned Halliburton. I confess to using hyperbole.

196 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:00pm

Bechtel, Kiewit, Haliburton are the three btw.

197 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:01pm

re: #183 JasonA

PETA... you're not helping. (Not that you ever have...)

PETA....wasn't that the stuff that the eunuch bomber stuffed in his crotch?

198 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:12pm

re: #183 JasonA

PETA... you're not helping. (Not that you ever have...)
PETA Features Michelle Obama In Anti-Fur Ad

Not cool to use Michelle Obama in an advert without her permission. That's dishonest and wrong.

199 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:15pm

re: #188 JasonA

"Jewish Avenger?"

The Hebrew Hammer?

200 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:23pm

re: #182 brookly red

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

Arguments by analogy.

201 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:35pm

re: #165 MandyManners

WAR WITH EURASIA?

re: #172 Varek Raith

Elaborate?

re: #187 The Sanity Inspector

Very.

Nah. I expect a simple little war, probably over by Christmas.

202 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:43pm

re: #197 Big Steve

PETA...wasn't that the stuff that the eunuch bomber stuffed in his crotch?

No, pretty sure there was fur down there.

Eww...

203 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:57pm

re: #167 The Sanity Inspector

Do you mean climate change denial?

Doh! Sorry.

((Pounds head on keyboard for being unclear.))

204 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:16:58pm

re: #182 brookly red

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

Common memes.

That and the Coca-Cola Company wasn't available. /

205 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:17:19pm

re: #190 Big Steve

I was being facetious about the ACORN capitalization.

206 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:17:30pm

re: #179 Thanos

I'll bet you 10 to 1 this is a Beck watcher.

207 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:17:31pm

re: #202 JasonA

No, pretty sure there was fur down there.

not any more!

208 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:17:34pm

re: #194 brookly red

and tomorrow's lotto numbers?


12, 26, 7, 0, 15, 35, 8

209 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:17:34pm

re: #199 SteveC

The Hebrew Hammer?

That can't be half as awesome as it sounds...

210 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:18:07pm

re: #197 Big Steve

PETA...wasn't that the stuff that the eunuch bomber stuffed in his crotch?

/wow, talk about being radicalized...

211 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:18:23pm

re: #207 Big Steve

not any more!

Zing!

212 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:18:34pm

re: #206 Kewalo

I'll bet you 10 to 1 this is a Beck watcher.

I wouldn't be surprised, notice that he trashes Dems too, this is someone actively wanting "third way" politics and who seems to buy the conspiracy swill from both ends of the hose.

213 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:18:36pm

re: #189 Varek Raith

Prepare for full hate on. Engage.
/frakking lowlifes.

Set phaser banks to "Slap Wingnuts". Fire on my command! And ready the Anti-Idiot Torpedoes.

214 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:19:24pm

re: #183 JasonA

Lawd! PETA is a big pain in the ass aren't they?

215 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:19:39pm

re: #195 jayzee

Full denial, eh? I guess you really can't make the horse drink.

I tried!

216 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:19:41pm

re: #208 windsagio

12, 26, 7, 0, 15, 35, 8

don't think I won't play them...

217 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:19:59pm

re: #216 brookly red

I'll be nice, I only get 20%!

218 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:20:05pm

re: #200 The Sanity Inspector

Search for Halliburton from the top of the blog. You'll see that someone (re: #11 Blue Fin) was equating the Right Wing ACORN bashing with Left Wing Halliburton bashing.

219 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:20:36pm

OT / Drive By -

Got a scare call today from the NRA - one where you get told about an important issue and then get the shake down for money.

What is the threat? The UN wants to ban guns and Hillary wants to help them. Cive money now.

Utter lunacy. But it must get some people to fork over money.

220 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:20:40pm

re: #217 windsagio

I'll be nice, I only get 20%!

I was thinking half but as you like it...

221 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:20:42pm

re: #214 Kewalo

Lawd! PETA is a big pain in the ass aren't they?

Just doesn't seem right to assume the First-Lady's image for your cause.

222 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:20:43pm

re: #209 JasonA

That can't be half as awesome as it sounds...

It's hilarious!

223 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:21:38pm

re: #222 SteveC

It's hilarious!

I read the description and it just sounds too damn good to be true.

224 bigred1961  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:21:53pm

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

225 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:05pm

re: #220 brookly red

yer puttin up the money, I only want a consulting fee :)

226 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:20pm

re: #219 karmic_inquisitor

gotta love the NRA, they're so whacky!

227 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:29pm

re: #224 bigred1961

Lol, sure, okay.

228 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:42pm

re: #224 bigred1961

lollololololololol lol lol lol lololololol

229 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:57pm

re: #221 JasonA

I've never forgiven them for letting a bunch of small animals loose to die of starvation. If they really wanted to do some good with fur animals they would have given them a better life rather then what they did.

230 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:22:57pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

Did Ann Coulter slip in?

231 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:23:44pm

re: #224 bigred1961

Weez in yer hed
Steelin yer lojick

232 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:23:59pm

re: #228 windsagio

lollololololololol lol lol lol lololololol

Thank you for showing me what you consider important in life and how to honor others.

233 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:24:24pm

re: #182 brookly red

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

That's what I was saying! re: #173 Gus 802

Right. To that I would say that no, ACORN doesn't run the Democratic Party and is not part of a shadow government. Conversely, Haliburton doesn't run the Republican Party and is not part of a shadow government. Neither of these entities will or has contributed to the fall of the republic.

And we agree!

234 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:24:42pm

re: #230 Big Steve

Did Ann Coulter slip in?

/when she turns sideways she is very hard to detect, even with the high tech.

235 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:24:45pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

Just go away.

236 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:24:57pm

re: #232 Stuart Leviton

Thank you for showing me what you consider important in life and how to honor others.

Huh? What's that supposed to mean?

237 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:25:41pm

re: #232 Stuart Leviton

hrm.. yeah thats just weird.

238 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:25:42pm

re: #226 windsagio

gotta love the NRA, they're so whacky!

and we vote.

239 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:26:07pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

I'm going to upding you, but you need to understand that McCarthyism was bigger than Joe McCarthy. He was the touchstone for a large number people hurling charges that any number of individuals were secret communists. That atmosphere helped give the John Birch Society some respect for a time. Given those facts, Joe McCarthy can be partially rehabilitated, but McCarthyism should always be regarded as a bad thing.

240 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:26:14pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

Yes, and no.

But, I'll up-ding you.

241 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:26:26pm

re: #235 Charles

Just go away.

Can we keep him, pleeeezze? I'll feed him and walk him every day.

242 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:26:37pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

And the collateral damage was OK with you? Wow. The lives ruined by his witch hunt was acceptable because of the very few commies in government positions?

John Henry Faulk:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

McCarthy was a pitiful, self-aggrandizing, drunken punk.

243 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:26:48pm

So lizards.....what's the over/under on when we hit 8M comments. Pick and hour and day. I say 9 to 10 pm (PST) tomorrow.

244 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:27:32pm

re: #238 brookly red

heh no offense meant. That kind of call is just so goofy >>

245 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:27:57pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Nah. I expect a simple little war, probably over by Christmas.

Might have to raise taxes to swing this one, though.
/

246 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:04pm

re: #224 bigred1961

Oh baloney. I was living in Los Angeles during the McCarthy hearings. I remember my mother watching it on TV. My cousin worked as a grip at the studios and everyone was worried about losing jobs. It might be theoretical to you, but not me. It hurt everyday, average people with false accusations of being a commie. Real people lost their jobs because of lies and BS.

And the right is trying to do the same thing. Just look at ACORN...it's been mostly accusations.

247 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:08pm

re: #242 austin_blue

And the collateral damage was OK with you? Wow. The lives ruined by his witch hunt was acceptable because of the very few commies in government positions?

John Henry Faulk:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

McCarthy was a pitiful, self-aggrandizing, drunken punk.

drunkenpunk...should be one word, I'm stealing it

248 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:16pm

re: #241 Decatur Deb

Can we keep him, pleeezze? I'll feed him and walk him every day.

He'll bite you!

249 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:17pm

re: #243 Big Steve

So lizards...what's the over/under on when we hit 8M comments. Pick and hour and day. I say 9 to 10 pm (PST) tomorrow.

Does the poster get a gift? A toaster oven, maybe?

250 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:38pm

re: #243 Big Steve

So lizards...what's the over/under on when we hit 8M comments. Pick and hour and day. I say 9 to 10 pm (PST) tomorrow.

I will go with 6 to 7, but I cheat...
LOOK it's Shara Palin!

251 jaunte  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:28:41pm

Correction on McCarthy:

Virtually none of the people that McCarthy claimed or alleged were Soviet agents turn up in Venona. He did identify a few small fry who we now know were spies but only a few. And there is little evidence that those he fingered were among the unidentified spies of Venona. Many of his claims were wildly inaccurate; his charges filled with errors of fact, misjudgments of organizations and innuendoes disguised as evidence. He failed to recognize or understand the differences among genuine liberals, fellow-traveling liberals, Communist dupes, Communists and spies — distinctions that were important to make. The new information from Russian and American archives does not vindicate McCarthy. He remains a demagogue, whose wild charges actually made the fight against Communist subversion more difficult. Like Gresham’s Law, McCarthy’s allegations marginalized the accurate claims. Because his facts were so often wrong, real spies were able to hide behind the cover of being one of his victims and even persuade well-meaning but naïve people that the whole anti-communist cause was based on inaccuracies and hysteria.
-- Harvey Klehr


[Link: tfninsider.org...]

252 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:29:19pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

re: #240 MandyManners

I can't believe you guys would promote someone defending McCarthy. I didn't know there were still segments of the population that thought he was anything but awful >>

253 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:29:25pm

re: #241 Decatur Deb

Only if you promise to clean up his poop.

254 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:30:01pm

re: #252 windsagio

like 242 and 251 show...

255 eneri  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:30:14pm

Well, that was the point.

On another matter, what happened to links? I preferred the old format.

256 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:30:26pm

Alger Hiss, anyone?

257 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:30:28pm

re: #221 JasonA

Did you see the mortgage ads that featured a clip of President Obama? It was said to be without permission, then they went away. I found those ads really demeaning to the office. I have no patience for PETA. We are ASPCA folks. I have no more patience for the NRA. We have contributed to the Second Amendment Foundation. Funding the moderate advocates is what makes sense.

As I have said before, PETA can kiss my Maine Coon Cats butt. BTW, the RWC wife is about to start as a volunteer at a nearby animal shelter.

258 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:30:51pm

If I ever move out West, one of the nice things is that I'll be able to stay up for the overnight thread. As it is, I must now twine myself in the soft embrace of Morpheus. 'Night, all.

259 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:31:06pm

re: #182 brookly red

I am still trying to figure out how things went from ACORN to Halliburton?

That's what I was saying! re: #173 Gus 802

Right. To that I would say that no, ACORN doesn't run the Democratic Party and is not part of a shadow government. Conversely, Haliburton doesn't run the Republican Party and is not part of a shadow government. Neither of these entities will or has contributed to the fall of the republic.

And we agree! re: #215 windsagio

Full denial, eh? I guess you really can't make the horse drink.

I tried!

A horse? That's insulting.

260 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:31:09pm

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

261 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:31:15pm

re: #255 eneri

I smell socks. And they don't smell good.

262 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:31:22pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to upding you, but you need to understand that McCarthyism was bigger than Joe McCarthy. He was the touchstone for a large number people hurling charges that any number of individuals were secret communists. That atmosphere helped give the John Birch Society some respect for a time. Given those facts, Joe McCarthy can be partially rehabilitated, but McCarthyism should always be regarded as a bad thing.

You're absolutely right. And it's been worrying me to see commie and socialist thrown around the way they have been lately. People parrot those terms without the slightest idea of what they mean. Which is exactly what happened back then.

263 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:31:52pm

re: #256 MandyManners

lol 1948 wants its news back!

re: #260 MandyManners

... wow.

264 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:32:14pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Alger Hiss, anyone?

Yes, anyone.

[Link: www.google.com...]

265 Lateralis  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:33:17pm

re: #260 MandyManners

Don't you know that the communist threat was created by conservatives to feed the military industrial complex./

266 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:33:18pm

Excuse my language but; Fuck McCarthy and his tactics.

re: #256 MandyManners

Alger Hiss, anyone?

And the people he accused of being spies/commies, but were not?

re: #260 MandyManners

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

No shit. But that doesn't justify McCarthy's Commie witch hunts.

267 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:33:25pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to upding you, but you need to understand that McCarthyism was bigger than Joe McCarthy. He was the touchstone for a large number people hurling charges that any number of individuals were secret communists. That atmosphere helped give the John Birch Society some respect for a time. Given those facts, Joe McCarthy can be partially rehabilitated, but McCarthyism should always be regarded as a bad thing.

Dark, I hate to disagree with you, but McCarthy ruined many a life for no valid reason, and a conservative should know that. Even the constitution protects folks that associate with Communists, or even are communists. Many were innocent of even that, but were still black listed.

268 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:33:33pm

re: #260 MandyManners

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

And they really did steal the plans to the Bomb using spies. No doubt on either. However promoting a climate of fear and ratting out ones friends is not the America that we like to think we are.

269 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:33:39pm

so was the Tramp really a commie?...was that ever resolved?

270 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:34:02pm

re: #260 MandyManners

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

Agreed, and Hiss was helping them try. However, the prime movers in the Hiss case were Whittaker Chambers and Richard Nixon. The main issues of the case were resolved before Joe McCarthy gave the Wheeling, West Virginia, speech that launched his anti-communist career. Not trying to diminish your case, but I wanted to provide an accurate background.

271 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:34:07pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Alger Hiss

McCarthy is often incorrectly described as part of the House Committee on Un-American Activities (technically HCUA, but generally known as HUAC). HUAC is best known for the investigation of Alger Hiss and for its investigation of the Hollywood film industry, which led to the blacklisting of hundreds of actors, writers, and directors. HUAC was a House committee, and as such had no formal connection with McCarthy, who served in the Senate.

272 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:34:53pm

re: #257 Rightwingconspirator

Wow. I never saw that ad. Funny, I don't remember them using the President and First Lady in ads in previous administrations. Maybe they weren't that memorable?

As for the rest, good for you! And your better half!

273 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:35:13pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Alger Hiss, anyone?

That was exactly one. The rest of the hell he created? Worth it? Really? I have never gotten up your nose, Mandy, but on this one I've got personal history with my extended family. Innocent, but destroyed by that preening little bastard.

274 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:35:25pm

re: #260 MandyManners

Really, when? Why weren't we told?

275 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:35:55pm

re: #266 Varek Raith

Excuse my language but; Fuck McCarthy and his tactics.

No shit. But that doesn't justify McCarthy's Commie witch hunts.

From ACORN to Halliburton to McCarthy... damn that's good mileage!

276 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:36:03pm

re: #273 austin_blue

That was exactly one. The rest of the hell he created? Worth it? Really? I have never gotten up your nose, Mandy, but on this one I've got personal history with my extended family. Innocent, but destroyed by that preening little bastard.

Care to tell the story? I'd like to hear it.

277 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:36:20pm

History shows that Joseph McCarthy was the model for demagogues like Glenn Beck and Pat Buchanan. He destroyed the lives of many good Americans. He achieved nothing of value, and died in disgrace.

McCarthy's legacy is absolutely shameful.

It's pretty sad that LGF commenters have swallowed the propaganda of the far right, to the point where they would post comments saying that "McCarthy was right."

He was one of the worst politicians this country has ever produced.

278 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:36:41pm

re: #275 brookly red

From ACORN to Halliburton to McCarthy... damn that's good mileage!

It's eviiilution, I tells ya!
/:)

279 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:37:28pm

re: #260 MandyManners

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

Perhaps so, but that fear drove McCarthy to his brutal excesses.

280 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:37:37pm

re: #272 JasonA

Wow. I never saw that ad. Funny, I don't remember them using the President and First Lady in ads in previous administrations. Maybe they weren't that memorable?

As for the rest, good for you! And your better half!

In Israel they ran an add for a car company (I forget which of the former big 3) which featured Bill Clinton back in the late 90's. Those were pulled quickly too.

281 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:39:05pm

McCarthyism is where we got the Birchers and co, it's why Eisenhower, who was arguably one of the best presidents we've ever had got trashed as being a secret commie.

Ike started the interstate highway system, started the federal desegregation fight, was the first Republican president to speak out firmly for civil rights, and started the space race and our staunch opposition to Communism.

282 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:39:11pm

re: #266 Varek Raith

Excuse my language but; Fuck McCarthy and his tactics.

No shit. But that doesn't justify McCarthy's Commie witch hunts.

The pursuit of communist spies should have been left to normal channels which in fact were still maintained during the McCarthy show trials which did indeed split the country. As far as being a normal citizen communist or sympathizer, there was not law against that even during the time of the trials.

283 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:39:16pm

re: #273 austin_blue

destroyed by that preening little bastard.

And his little dog, too!

284 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:40:00pm

re: #280 jayzee

In Israel they ran an add for a car company (I forget which of the former big 3) which featured Bill Clinton back in the late 90's. Those were pulled quickly too.

O.o Slick Willy was that big in Israel?

285 jaunte  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:40:23pm

re: #277 Charles

Harvey Klehr, the historian I quoted above, wrote
Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America
which may give those interested a fuller picture of what was discovered about Soviet spying in the U.S.

286 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:40:29pm

re: #269 albusteve

so was the Tramp really a commie?...was that ever resolved?

Tramp? Which Tramp? The Supertramp?

287 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:41:31pm

re: #281 Thanos

Ike was great. I just don't know what else to say.

288 swamprat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:06pm

re: #224 bigred1961

It amuses me to see how good ol' Joe McCarthy is still the ultimate boogie man to the left. Why? Because he was right. The State Department HAD been infiltrated by Communists. McCarty used inflammatory rhetoric and played fast and loose with many of the facts, but history has proved he was right. So to me accusing someone of McCarthyism is tantamount to admitting that they are right.

He sorta leap-frogged right over that whole "trial by a jury of your peers" nonsense, at the same time bulldozing all that need for "evidence" and "defense". Commies were a real threat, but the curious, and intellectually interested were lumped together with the (actual!) raving mad bombers. It soon became obvious that joe mcCarthy had lost sight of protecting America, and was using his position to gain power in the most ugly fashion possible. I don't see that Walter Brennan was a threat to America, but conversely, joe was. I know you are banned, but this needed to be said if, for no other reason, than to prevent you and others from saying that your assertion was not refuted. Joe mccarty was bad for America. He was a bad American, and a self-serving asshole.

289 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:08pm

re: #282 Gus 802

The pursuit of communist spies should have been left to normal channels which in fact were still maintained during the McCarthy show trials which did indeed split the country. As far as being a normal citizen communist or sympathizer, there was not law against that even during the time of the trials.

Agree again. Many of my friends and family had lives ruined as a result and many of them were communists too. There was nothing wrong with that. They still have a communist party here too. The fact that the Soviets infiltrated the communist parties, or other organizations in the US did not mean that all people associated with those organizations were traitors or disloyal Americans.

290 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:17pm

re: #287 Olsonist

Ike was great. I just don't know what else to say.

He just wasn't teabagger enough.//

291 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:23pm

Has the bastard who blew up our C.I.A. agents been decleared a quadruple agent yet today?

292 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:57pm

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

Care to tell the story? I'd like to hear it.

Sorry, no. I like my anonymity. Just to say that a bunch of screenwriters weren't allowed to practice their craft for years because of bullshit organizations linked to Tail Gunner Joe (another lie).

"In 1942, shortly after the U.S. entered World War II, McCarthy was commissioned into the United States Marine Corps, despite the fact that his judicial office exempted him from compulsory service. His position as a judge qualified him for an automatic commission as an officer, and he became a second lieutenant after completing basic training. He served as an intelligence briefing officer for a dive bomber squadron in the Solomon Islands and Bougainville. McCarthy reportedly chose the Marines with the hope that being a veteran of this branch of the military would serve him best in his future political career.[13] He would leave the Marines with the rank of captain. It is well documented that McCarthy lied about his war record. Despite his automatic commission, he claimed to have enlisted as a "buck private." He flew twelve combat missions as a gunner-observer, earning the nickname of "Tail-Gunner Joe" in the course of one of these missions.[14] He later claimed 32 missions in order to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross, which he received in 1952. McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation which he claimed had been signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, then Chief of Naval Operations. However, it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer. A "war wound" that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or antiaircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during an initiation ceremony for sailors who cross the equator for the first time.[13][15]"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

293 SteveC  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:42:57pm

re: #269 albusteve

so was the Tramp really a commie?...was that ever resolved?

It was much, much worse... he was a comedian!

///

294 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:43:22pm

re: #277 Charles

One of my friends and heroes is Charles Muscatine, a UC Berkeley professor who refused to sign the loyalty oath.

He's a strong man, so it didn't ruin his life, but it deprived generations of Berkeley students of a great, great man's wisdom. He had to teach at much lower-ranked schools for a long, long time.

He joined other professors in a lawsuit against Berkeley, long after the fact, and won. With his portion of the winnings, he bought a cherry red sportscar and parked it daily (after reinstatement at Berkeley as well) underneath the window of the administrator he felt was the most zestful about prosecuting that loyalty oath.

295 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:43:26pm

re: #291 MandyManners

"hey! Look over there!"

296 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:43:42pm

re: #284 JasonA

O.o Slick Willy was that big in Israel?

Huge. It cost me many a date with an Israeli girl (cause I was no fan especially in regards to his ME policy). Pity.

297 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:43:44pm

re: #282 Gus 802

The pursuit of communist spies should have been left to normal channels which in fact were still maintained during the McCarthy show trials which did indeed split the country. As far as being a normal citizen communist or sympathizer, there was not law against that even during the time of the trials.

Never was a law against it, and we had just finished a bloody 4 yr war with the USSR on our side.

298 mich-again  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:44:09pm

re: #193 austin_blue

You misunderstand the process. Once the cards are collected, it is the job of the Registrar to determine if the submitted cards are legitimate, not the collectors.

Oh so its a game. Jam the system with fraudulent voter registration cards and then leave it all to "the man" to figure out which is which. If the fraudulent ones sneak through its the registars fault, not the organization that enabled the fraud. Nice.

299 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:44:39pm

re: #281 Thanos

McCarthyism is where we got the Birchers and co, it's why Eisenhower, who was arguably one of the best presidents we've ever had got trashed as being a secret commie.

Ike started the interstate highway system, started the federal desegregation fight, was the first Republican president to speak out firmly for civil rights, and started the space race and our staunch opposition to Communism.

True. That part I was not disputing. But it seems a hornet's nest got kicked, and I had a part in the kicking. I think that I'm going to do some more research on Joe McCarthy before commenting on him again. I want to make sure I have a better grasp of the truth before speak to the issue again.

300 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:44:52pm

re: #271 Olsonist

It went down further then actors, my cousin was a grip.

I have a little history for you. During the depression the communists in Hollywood would hold meetings and serve sandwiches, and there was a sign up sheet. It didn't mean that anyone that attended was a commie, but I'm sure some were. Remember, it was nothing illegal or underhanded. Nobody thought twice about going. Well, those signup sheets were used against people and all it took was the accusation for a person to lose their job. It was a sad, sick part of our history and one we should all understand and make sure never happens again.

And while the communists would have loved to turn our country around, as you can see they didn't even come close.

301 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:44:56pm

Your text to link...A suicide bomber who killed eight people at a CIA base in Afghanistan was an Al-Qaeda TRIPLE agent who duped Western intelligence services for months before turning on his handlers, jihadist websites boasted on Tuesday.

The Jordanian intelligence services had brought the bomber to eastern Afghanistan with the mission of finding Al-Qaeda number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, believing he was their double agent, jihadist websites and Western intelligence agents cited by US media said.

But instead he blew himself up at Forward Operating Base Chapman in Khost province near the Pakistani border, killing seven CIA agents and his Jordanian handler, a top intelligence officer and member of the royal family.

SNIP

302 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:45:19pm

re: #289 jayzee

Agree again. Many of my friends and family had lives ruined as a result and many of them were communists too. There was nothing wrong with that. They still have a communist party here too. The fact that the Soviets infiltrated the communist parties, or other organizations in the US did not mean that all people associated with those organizations were traitors or disloyal Americans.

Yes. Logic would also tell me that it would be rather stupid to think that a spy would join a communist party. Perhaps they could have been affiliated at one time but the obvious answer to a spy would have been non affiliated. I was curious to see how many spies would have met this criteria and were in the end spies for economic gain.

303 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:46:00pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

Read up on Charles Muscatine, who I linked above. Personal friend, family friend, my dad's teacher, and one of the best human beings I have ever known in my life.

Listen to his story about the times.

304 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:46:12pm

re: #290 JasonA

I'm a massive FDR fan. I'm a huge Truman fan. And I still like Ike. These were three great Presidents. Different but all three were builders and defenders of America.

McCarthy? He represents a sickness.

305 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:46:19pm

re: #301 MandyManners

I almost wish I was still religious so I could at least be comforted by the thought that bastard was rotting in hell.

306 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:47:41pm

re: #291 MandyManners

Has the bastard who blew up our C.I.A. agents been decleared a quadruple agent yet today?

No, he was a double agent. It looks like the CIA got played by Al Qaeda. Hoe that happened should be reviewed, but quietly and out of the public eye. Intel matters are not something we should want to know about.

307 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:47:53pm

re: #282 Gus 802

Snip
As far as being a normal citizen communist or sympathizer, there was not law against that even during the time of the trials.

That is the main point. If conservatives support the constitution, and the constitution protects all from the far right to the far left, how can conservatives support a witch hunt for one political extreme, even if their association is proven, and many were not ?

308 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:50:22pm

re: #300 Kewalo

Sounds familiar. My grandfather was a Wobbly.

309 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:51:53pm

re: #308 Olsonist

Alot of transient rail workers tried to get IWW cards because it usually meant they could get a bit of food while traveling from job to (potential) job.

310 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:52:09pm

re: #301 re: #292 austin_blue

Good link. The planes he served on were SBD Dauntless dive bombers BTW. Good planes, but the work was dangerous. Mostly they were used for anti-shipping attacks against the columns of Japanese destroyers call "The Tokyo Express". The main threat, however, was Japanese fighters, as the IJN's Anti-Aircraft weapons and tactics were fairly poor.

311 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:52:44pm

re: #307 avanti

That is the main point. If conservatives support the constitution, and the constitution protects all from the far right to the far left, how can conservatives support a witch hunt for one political extreme, even if their association is proven, and many were not ?

keep in mind the context of those dark times....lots of hypocrisy, lies and fraud...of course I mean the McCarthy era, not today

312 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:53:04pm

re: #302 Gus 802

Yes. Logic would also tell me that it would be rather stupid to think that a spy would join a communist party. Perhaps they could have been affiliated at one time but the obvious answer to a spy would have been non affiliated. I was curious to see how many spies would have met this criteria and were in the end spies for economic gain.

There was a '50s joke that the US party members could always detect FBI infiltrators--they were the only ones that kept up their dues.

313 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:53:17pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

By the way, just to show that Charles is a classy guy, here's what he said after regaining his job:

I didn't harbor a sense that the University was against me. To my mind, the University is the faculty and the students. I've always thought of the University as us, not them.


Here's some more from him on the McCarthyist times:

[Link: content.cdlib.org...]

314 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:53:23pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Quite often, yes. In PR terms: If you're accused of certain crimes, you're guilty. It's not fair, it punishes people who have committed no crimes (As a rule, I do not use the word "innocent" in reference to adults), but it's the way it is.

When did PR become reality? In my opinion, if you can't differentiate between PR and reality you need to get a grip.

What evidence is available and what is the probable guilt of Haliburton as opposed to ACORN?

315 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:54:00pm

re: #300 Kewalo

It went down further then actors, my cousin was a grip.

I have a little history for you. During the depression the communists in Hollywood would hold meetings and serve sandwiches, and there was a sign up sheet. It didn't mean that anyone that attended was a commie, but I'm sure some were. Remember, it was nothing illegal or underhanded. Nobody thought twice about going. Well, those signup sheets were used against people and all it took was the accusation for a person to lose their job. It was a sad, sick part of our history and one we should all understand and make sure never happens again.

And while the communists would have loved to turn our country around, as you can see they didn't even come close.

Many had flirted with Communism before the war when it was fashionably. Some as innocently as attending a meeting out of curiosity, some had more radical friends, but all were treated as traitors by McCarthy.

317 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:54:58pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

Good link. The planes he served on were SBD Dauntless dive bombers BTW. Good planes, but the work was dangerous. Mostly they were used for anti-shipping attacks against the columns of Japanese destroyers call "The Tokyo Express". The main threat, however, was Japanese fighters, as the IJN's Anti-Aircraft weapons and tactics were fairly poor.

32 missions earned you the DFC?...I did not know that....I thought it was awarded for valor

318 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:55:01pm

re: #311 albusteve

There's really no excuse... especially given how blatant and calculated it all was.

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:55:05pm

re: #120 Stuart Leviton

what

320 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:55:52pm

re: #314 b_sharp

When did PR become reality? In my opinion, if you can't differentiate between PR and reality you need to get a grip.

What evidence is available and what is the probable guilt of Haliburton as opposed to ACORN?

The subject under discussion, McCarthyism, is an example of how PR can become reality. In many cases, the accusation proved itself in most eyes. Fear can lead people to do very bad things to ensure what they think will be their safety.

321 jayzee  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:55:56pm

re: #300 Kewalo

It went down further then actors, my cousin was a grip.

I have a little history for you. During the depression the communists in Hollywood would hold meetings and serve sandwiches, and there was a sign up sheet. It didn't mean that anyone that attended was a commie, but I'm sure some were. Remember, it was nothing illegal or underhanded. Nobody thought twice about going. Well, those signup sheets were used against people and all it took was the accusation for a person to lose their job. It was a sad, sick part of our history and one we should all understand and make sure never happens again.

And while the communists would have loved to turn our country around, as you can see they didn't even come close.

About 15 yrs ago my friends grandfather died. At the funeral, grandpa's coffin was draped in a Soviet flag-not really my taste, but it wasn't my party. He wanted it that way because he was a big union organizer and communist a long time ago. Anyway, if McCarthy were around then, what would have happened to the friends and family that sat at that funeral? That helped make the arrangements and mourn with my friend? Scarry.

322 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:56:21pm

re: #317 albusteve

32 missions earned you the DFC?...I did not know that...I thought it was awarded for valor

risking your ass 32 times is kinda valorous, no?

324 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:56:59pm

re: #313 Obdicut

I went to Cal and I'd like to know who that shit administrator was and piss on his grave.

325 swamprat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:57:14pm

re: #311 albusteve

That was beautiful.

326 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:58:23pm

re: #318 windsagio

There's really no excuse... especially given how blatant and calculated it all was.

a little sardonic humor there

327 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:59:14pm

re: #326 albusteve

I caught it after I posted, I'd change my thingy if I could :(

328 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:59:41pm
329 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 7:59:42pm

re: #308 Olsonist

Sounds familiar. My grandfather was a Wobbly.

I had to go look that up. :~)

Yeah, the unions really took a beating. It was a sad time in our history and God willing we'll never go through anything like it again.

Interesting isn't it that there are three of us with personal experience here?

330 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:00:08pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

True. That part I was not disputing. But it seems a hornet's nest got kicked, and I had a part in the kicking. I think that I'm going to do some more research on Joe McCarthy before commenting on him again. I want to make sure I have a better grasp of the truth before speak to the issue again.

Dark, that why you have my respect. Your opinion was challenged, you decide to do some research instead of just lashing back at your critics.
It matters not how you feel with more home work, I'll respect a well researched opinion even if in the end we still disagree.

331 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:00:16pm

re: #322 brookly red

risking your ass 32 times is kinda valorous, no?

it is, but the DFC is no small thing...my uncle won it over Korea in an F86

332 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:00:21pm

re: #316 publicityStunted

And what to say about this?!?

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

333 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:01:46pm

re: #304 Olsonist

I'm a massive FDR fan. I'm a huge Truman fan. And I still like Ike. These were three great Presidents. Different but all three were builders and defenders of America.

McCarthy? He represents a sickness.

We will always remember Ike for his part in SHAEF as Supreme Allied Commander. June 6th, 1944.

Ike was a more complex figure than he was given credit for until recent times. His final "military-industrial-complex" speech broke new ground in American politics. These are the last words in that speech:

We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.

334 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:01:53pm

re: #331 albusteve

it is, but the DFC is no small thing...my uncle won it over Korea in an F86

I agree, no small thing.

335 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:02:10pm

re: #308 Olsonist

Sounds familiar. My grandfather was a Wobbly.

Little retro-IWW music:

336 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:02:42pm

re: #317 albusteve

32 missions earned you the DFC?...I did not know that...I thought it was awarded for valor

The logic was that surviving that much aerial combat was itself medal-worthy. Many did not. Dive Bombers had a higher casualty rate than most. They often had to avoid enemy fighters and then dive into the teeth of a ship's AA fire to deliver their bomb. And while most IJN ships had relatively poor AA systems, the Nagatsuki class (which was active in the Solomons) had 8 very effective 3.9 Dual Purpose Guns (as well as 4 24-inch Long Lance torpedoes for use in a surface action).

337 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:03:09pm

re: #315 avanti

Exactly. I read somewhere that Lucille Ball was on one of those list and was worried sick about it coming out. Can you imagine life without "I Love Lucy?"

338 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:03:16pm

re: #294 Obdicut

Correction, it was only 3 classes of Berkeley that were deprived of Charles. I thought it lasted longer, but I was conflating the period of turmoil with the period he was gone.

339 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:04:42pm

re: #332 JasonA

RINO!!!11!

340 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:04:51pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

The logic was that surviving that much aerial combat was itself medal-worthy. Many did not. Dive Bombers had a higher casualty rate than most. They often had to avoid enemy fighters and then dive into the teeth of a ship's AA fire to deliver their bomb. And while most IJN ships had relatively poor AA systems, the Nagatsuki class (which was active in the Solomons) had 8 very effective 3.9 Dual Purpose Guns (as well as 4 24-inch Long Lance torpedoes for use in a surface action).

in that case every Marine in the 2d on Tarawa deserves a MOH

341 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:05:38pm

re: #321 jayzee

People would not have gone to his funeral if he had died during the McCarthy era. They would have been afraid to go.

342 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:06:41pm

re: #340 albusteve

in that case every Marine in the 2d on Tarawa deserves a MOH

all combat veterans deserve better that most get. IMO.

343 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:06:53pm

re: #330 avanti

Dark, that why you have my respect. Your opinion was challenged, you decide to do some research instead of just lashing back at your critics.
It matters not how you feel with more home work, I'll respect a well researched opinion even if in the end we still disagree.

Thank you for that.

On another note, the fighting in the Solomons had another effect of considerable import to avanti. The IJN's successful torpedo tactics proved almost impossible to counter with the slow-firing 8-inch guns that USN heavy cruisers mounted. This created critical demand for a faster firing 8-inch gun, which was finally put into service in the Des Moines-class, of which the Newport News was a member.

344 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:06:53pm

John Oliver's having fun with the Fox pundits' fascination with the past on the Daily Show.

345 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:07:58pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

The logic was that surviving that much aerial combat was itself medal-worthy. Many did not. Dive Bombers had a higher casualty rate than most. They often had to avoid enemy fighters and then dive into the teeth of a ship's AA fire to deliver their bomb. And while most IJN ships had relatively poor AA systems, the Nagatsuki class (which was active in the Solomons) had 8 very effective 3.9 Dual Purpose Guns (as well as 4 24-inch Long Lance torpedoes for use in a surface action).

Was that the Mutsuki Class? Or was their an actual Nagatsuki class?

346 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:08:02pm

re: #337 Kewalo

Exactly. I read somewhere that Lucille Ball was on one of those list and was worried sick about it coming out. Can you imagine life without "I Love Lucy?"

True, she was on the black list, but she got away.

" Lucille Ball had registered to vote as a communist in 1936 at the insistence of her grandfather, even though she was not a communist. When McCarthy's blacklist came out, her name was on it. She appeared before the 1953 House Committee on Un-American Activities hearings. With much difficulty she was able to disprove the charge. Many others who were blacklisted had their lives and careers ruined "

347 Interesting Times  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:09:26pm

re: #332 JasonA

And what to say about this?!?

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

It ought to be posted, without attribution, on FreeRepublic and HotAir so we can revel in the commenting goodness to follow.

348 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:09:36pm

re: #316 publicityStunted

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

liberal commie socialist! ///

Ike the environmentalist (same speech):

Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

349 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:09:51pm

re: #342 brookly red

all combat veterans deserve better that most get. IMO.

my dad spent four days on Betio island in Nov '43...I'm biased myself

350 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:09:54pm

re: #346 avanti

Thanks very much, I didn't know this.

I learn something new everyday here. It's really fun.

351 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:09:56pm

This episode of the Twilight Zone was really about McCarthyism.

The Monsters are Due on Maple Street

352 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:10:11pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for that.

On another note, the fighting in the Solomons had another effect of considerable import to avanti. The IJN's successful torpedo tactics proved almost impossible to counter with the slow-firing 8-inch guns that USN heavy cruisers mounted. This created critical demand for a faster firing 8-inch gun, which was finally put into service in the Des Moines-class, of which the Newport News was a member.

Yep, we could put more ordnance on the target per minute that the big 16 inchers, thus us call sign "Rolling Thunder".

353 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:10:13pm

re: #347 publicityStunted

RedState

354 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:10:41pm

re: #348 Gus 802

My one complaint about Ike is he had all this wonderful rhetoric on his way out, but really did almost nothing about it while he was president. He could have helped make things so much better.

355 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:10:45pm

"Well, you don't understand Eddie because you're too young, but one day you will be crying like a little girl on television because of an America you've lost."

lmao

356 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:11:05pm

re: #350 Kewalo

Thanks very much, I didn't know this.

I learn something new everyday here. It's really fun.

google is hilarious

357 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:11:34pm

re: #347 publicityStunted

It ought to be posted, without attribution, on FreeRepublic and HotAir so we can revel in the commenting goodness to follow.

You'd probably be banned before they even had a chance to look it up.

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:11:51pm

re: #257 Rightwingconspirator

Good call about PETA and the NRA being sort of in the same extremist realm. as a gun owner, I wouldn't go anywhere near the NRA. And ugh PETA. *shudder*

359 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:13:20pm

re: #356 albusteve

google is hilarious

I was about to buy a new Droid phone, but today Google announced their phone. The Google geeks have the biggest propellers on their beanies, so I need to check out their phone first.

360 Interesting Times  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:13:27pm

re: #358 WindUpBird

Good call about PETA and the NRA being sort of in the same extremist realm. as a gun owner, I wouldn't go anywhere near the NRA. And ugh PETA. *shudder*

Just be grateful they don't team up for some kind of joint ad campaign :P (that would make a most interesting Photoshop competition, come to think of it...)

361 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:13:58pm

re: #345 Varek Raith

Was that the Mutsuki Class? Or was their an actual Nagatsuki class?

It seems I had the name of the class wrong. The actual name was the Akizuki-class. Nagatsuki was, as you correctly stated, a unit of the earlier Mutsuki-class.

Source: Destroyers of World War Two, by M.J. Whitley.

362 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:14:34pm

re: #354 windsagio

My one complaint about Ike is he had all this wonderful rhetoric on his way out, but really did almost nothing about it while he was president. He could have helped make things so much better.

Perhaps he could. Or, he could have made things much worse. I know he wasn't perfect and no president was or is perfect. There is only so much they can do.

363 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:15:29pm

re: #362 Gus 802

Perhaps he could. Or, he could have made things much worse. I know he wasn't perfect and no president was or is perfect. There is only so much they can do.

/I tell myself that every day...

364 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:15:33pm

re: #359 avanti

My friend who works at google showed me hers. Seemed nifty enough.

365 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:16:04pm

re: #357 JasonA

You'd probably be banned before they even had a chance to look it up.

Or they'll just point at their computer monitors and make that screeching noise from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

366 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:16:31pm

re: #362 Gus 802

true enough. They were certainly words to remember.

367 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:17:17pm

re: #362 Gus 802

Perhaps he could. Or, he could have made things much worse. I know he wasn't perfect and no president was or is perfect. There is only so much they can do.

good debate there...as for the best/most effective, close to perfect president....I'll start with Polk

368 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:17:52pm

re: #362 Gus 802

Perhaps he could. Or, he could have made things much worse. I know he wasn't perfect and no president was or is perfect. There is only so much they can do.

I might be a leftie, but I think it a good thing we had Ike instead of Stevenson.

369 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:17:55pm

re: #260 MandyManners

BTW, the U.S.S.R. really did try to destroy the U.S.A..

And the USA did try to destroy the USSR.

It was a giant dick fight with big pointy teeth.

370 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:18:18pm

re: #364 Obdicut

My friend who works at google showed me hers.

In bed.

371 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:18:36pm

re: #369 b_sharp

And the USA did try to destroy the USSR.

It was a giant dick fight with big pointy teeth.

Uhh... It was quite a bit more than that. ;)

372 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:18:58pm

re: #356 albusteve

Really? I find it annoys me more then anything. If I want to do research of something any older then a year it's gotten almost impossible. I wish we could do research by the year. For example if I wanted to know the public reaction on something in 1995 it would just be impossible. I've been wondering how I could get through to the people who have set up google so they could make some changes. I'm sick of wading though pgs and pgs of BS and it's getting worse and worse.

373 abolitionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:18:59pm

re: #330 avanti

Dark, that why you have my respect. Your opinion was challenged, you decide to do some research instead of just lashing back at your critics.
It matters not how you feel with more home work, I'll respect a well researched opinion even if in the end we still disagree.

I'll say again, I like your attitude. +1

374 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:19:16pm

re: #369 b_sharp

upding for the term 'dick fight'

375 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:19:56pm

re: #367 albusteve

good debate there...as for the best/most effective, close to perfect president...I'll start with Polk

Why Polk? For the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo... New Mexico?

376 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:20:22pm

re: #367 albusteve

good debate there...as for the best/most effective, close to perfect president...I'll start with Polk

William Henry Harrison

;-)

377 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:20:35pm

re: #369 b_sharp

And the USA did try to destroy the USSR.

It was a giant dick fight with big pointy teeth.

and we should remember why they are gone & we are not yet... and with that I say good night good folks.

378 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:20:59pm

Well, I finally made it through tonight's Glenn Beck show. I took me a couple sittings. What a wonderful peek into the way he (and many others) view the world they inhabit. I have to admit I think he's brilliant at what he does. He exploits complicated issues like economics and condenses it into a conspiracy theory that's easy to understand. I don't think he's smart enough to have intentionally plotted his rising influence but I think he sort of stumbled into it. The time was right and he's certainly the man for the job. What a bizarre thing he's helped to create.

379 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:21:03pm

re: #372 Kewalo

Really? I find it annoys me more then anything. If I want to do research of something any older then a year it's gotten almost impossible. I wish we could do research by the year. For example if I wanted to know the public reaction on something in 1995 it would just be impossible. I've been wondering how I could get through to the people who have set up google so they could make some changes. I'm sick of wading though pgs and pgs of BS and it's getting worse and worse.

A typical response to what seemed like a completely innocuous google search; God! That's some nasty porn!111!!!
///:)

380 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:22:10pm

re: #369 b_sharp

And the USA did try to destroy the USSR.

It was a giant dick fight with big pointy teeth.

Moral Equivalence, nice talking point. However, you fail to point out that was entirely just to seek the destruction of thge Soviet system of tyranny and murder, while to seek the destruction of America, which though flawed was a free society, was a great wrong.

381 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:22:41pm

re: #375 Gus 802

Why Polk? For the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo... New Mexico?

he had the nerve to rip off Mexico for 3/5 of their country...it's a bit simple, I know

382 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:23:35pm

re: #376 austin_blue

William Henry Harrison

;-)

no fair...you have to give a one sentence explanation

383 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:23:55pm

re: #381 albusteve

he had the nerve to rip off Mexico for 3/5 of their country...it's a bit simple, I know

I hereby pronounce you an honorary Democrat! ;)

384 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:24:23pm

re: #382 albusteve

no fair...you have to give a one sentence explanation

In office: March 4, 1841 – April 4, 1841

385 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:24:43pm

re: #382 albusteve

no fair...you have to give a one sentence explanation

32 days in office

386 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:25:12pm

Top Shelf - FDR and Lincoln

Truman, Eisenhower, Teddy, Clinton.

387 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:26:00pm

re: #378 Killgore Trout

Well, I finally made it through tonight's Glenn Beck show. I took me a couple sittings. What a wonderful peek into the way he (and many others) view the world they inhabit. I have to admit I think he's brilliant at what he does. He exploits complicated issues like economics and condenses it into a conspiracy theory that's easy to understand. I don't think he's smart enough to have intentionally plotted his rising influence but I think he sort of stumbled into it. The time was right and he's certainly the man for the job. What a bizarre thing he's helped to create.

100 years from now there will be bronze statues of him dotting the countryside...the 'Great Reconquistador' or whatever....maybe not tho

388 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:26:36pm

re: #379 Varek Raith

HAHAHAHA!!

389 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:27:24pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

The subject under discussion, McCarthyism, is an example of how PR can become reality. In many cases, the accusation proved itself in most eyes. Fear can lead people to do very bad things to ensure what they think will be their safety.

There are times when being cynical and skeptical can be an advantage.

390 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:28:05pm

re: #387 albusteve

100 years from now there will be bronze statues of him dotting the countryside...the 'Great Reconquistador' or whatever...maybe not tho


Heh. I'm pretty sure he's a historical dead end (along with Palin, Jindal, Ron Paul, etc) but ya never know.

391 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:28:44pm

re: #389 b_sharp

There are times when being cynical and skeptical can be an advantage.

As can optimism.

392 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:29:09pm

re: #387 albusteve

100 years from now there will be bronze statues of him dotting the countryside...the 'Great Reconquistador' or whatever...maybe not tho

That's got good potential as a South Park ep. :)

393 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:29:20pm

So hard to pick favorites, but I've always respected Jefferson for challenging his own principles and going forward with the Louisiana Purchase.

394 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:29:23pm

re: #387 albusteve

100 years from now there will be bronze statues of him dotting the countryside...(snip)

If the great Pigeon Putsch of 2073 succeeds.

395 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:30:25pm

re: #386 Olsonist

Top Shelf - FDR and Lincoln

Truman, Eisenhower, Teddy, Clinton.

Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy.

396 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:31:07pm

Grand scheme of things:

ACORNs scandals for fraudulent voter registration in mutiple states in which their people or the organization itself is under indictment and the famous videos that, at best, show ACORNers promoting all sorts of bad things after allegedly trying to do the right thing...(you won't let me help you? How about I find a way to keep you have having to pay taxes!)

vs.

A worthless and stupid report that was inaccurate.

It is easy to see where the more weighty charges reside. It doesn't excuse sloppieness or stupidity, but there is a mountain waiting to turn back into a mole hill here.

As for ACORN, it only has itself to blame.

397 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:31:24pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Woodrow Wilson, Imo. Jefferson's first term was good, his second was a letdown tho'.


Why Teddy?

398 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:32:03pm

re: #396 brainwizard73

Those videos were heavily edited.

399 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:32:21pm

re: #397 windsagio

Woodrow Wilson, Imo. Jefferson's first term was good, his second was a letdown tho'.

Why Teddy?

National parks, conservation.

400 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:32:27pm

G. Washington, because he walked away from it.

401 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:33:00pm

re: #399 Gus 802

forgot 'bout that :)

402 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:34:03pm

re: #398 Varek Raith

Those videos were heavily edited.

And apparently there was some voice over in the audio too.

403 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:34:03pm

re: #396 brainwizard73

Grand scheme of things:

ACORNs scandals for fraudulent voter registration in mutiple states in which their people or the organization itself is under indictment and the famous videos that, at best, show ACORNers promoting all sorts of bad things after allegedly trying to do the right thing...(you won't let me help you? How about I find a way to keep you have having to pay taxes!)

vs.

A worthless and stupid report that was inaccurate.

It is easy to see where the more weighty charges reside. It doesn't excuse sloppieness or stupidity, but there is a mountain waiting to turn back into a mole hill here.

As for ACORN, it only has itself to blame.

Still, those who ppose them should keep in mind what they actually are, and not turn them into a boogyman. They are a leftist organization, but not part of a conspiracy.

404 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:34:10pm

re: #357 JasonA

You'd probably be banned before they even had a chance to look it up.

You might find an old-timer able to get away with it.

405 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:35:25pm
406 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:36:03pm

re: #398 Varek Raith

Perhaps. I don't know.

What I do know is that I saw with my owen eyes the back and forth with some of those ACORN folks and it was a disgrace. It wasn't one or two lines, it was several back and forth statements.

407 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:36:23pm

I'm tired and I'm old.

408 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:36:25pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Not that big on Kennedy and I'd put Clinton on the 3rd shelf. Maybe put Kennedy there on account of his brilliant handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Not sure on Grant. Not really into the early Presidents but with the exception of Washington (Madison?) they didn't face the massive challenges Lincoln and FDR faced.

409 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:36:29pm

re: #403 Dark_Falcon

Still, those who ppose them should keep in mind what they actually are, and not turn them into a boogyman. They are a leftist organization, but not part of a conspiracy.

I think the wingnuts just love to fancy themselves as James Bond.
/
Seriously, though, I don't particularly care for ACORN nor their tactics.

411 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:37:33pm

re: #405 MandyManners

Amazing how ideas mature as the information comes clear, isn't it?

412 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:06pm

re: #403 Dark_Falcon


That might be true. They could be housing some nuts in their midst.

413 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:07pm

re: #403 Dark_Falcon

Still, those who ppose them should keep in mind what they actually are, and not turn them into a boogyman. They are a leftist organization, but not part of a conspiracy.

Just to calibrate, is the ACLU a leftist organization?

414 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:17pm

Andrew Breitbart is STILL twittering incoherently that Bertha Lewis visited the White House, and everyone else is lying. The guy is completely obsessed.

415 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:24pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

The subject under discussion, McCarthyism, is an example of how PR can become reality. In many cases, the accusation proved itself in most eyes. Fear can lead people to do very bad things to ensure what they think will be their safety.

Indeed it can. The attacks of 9/11 called for, internationally, an attack on Afghanistan to attempt to kill the perpetrators. Domestically, however, it called for an increase in intelligence and law enforcement. The military cannot stop terrorism domestically. It's grunt cop and spook work.

Sadly, the fear of the populace accepted the invasion of Iraq, which had nothing to do with much of anything in 2001. Or 2003, for that matter. The result of that wildly misjudged adventure has handcuffed us both in Afghanistan and in dealing with Iran.

Nice legacy, eh?

416 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:39pm

re: #411 windsagio

Amazing how ideas mature as the information comes clear, isn't it?

Amazing how a fucking neophtyte....

417 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:38:51pm
418 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:40:22pm

re: #407 MandyManners

I'm tired and I'm old.

But you're above ground, so you're stuck with tomorrow.

419 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:40:24pm

re: #416 MandyManners

lol thats positive.

Things have become clear re: the propaganda about Acorn a year and a half ago. The intellectually honest people can modify their views accordingly.

420 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:40:41pm

re: #416 MandyManners

Amazing how a fucking neophtyte...

Deflection. It's irrelevant to how long someone has posted here.
/Just look at how many from 2004 flounce.

421 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:40:57pm

re: #413 Olsonist

Just to calibrate, is the ACLU a leftist organization?

Yes.

422 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:41:02pm

re: #418 Decatur Deb

But you're above ground, so you're stuck with tomorrow.

I WIN!

423 [deleted]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:41:31pm
424 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:41:59pm

re: #415 austin_blue

Indeed it can. The attacks of 9/11 called for, internationally, an attack on Afghanistan to attempt to kill the perpetrators. Domestically, however, it called for an increase in intelligence and law enforcement. The military cannot stop terrorism domestically. It's grunt cop and spook work.

Sadly, the fear of the populace accepted the invasion of Iraq, which had nothing to do with much of anything in 2001. Or 2003, for that matter. The result of that wildly misjudged adventure has handcuffed us both in Afghanistan and in dealing with Iran.

Nice legacy, eh?

most pre bush democrat leaders were pretty gung ho to depose Hussein

425 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:42:16pm

re: #416 MandyManners

Amazing how a fucking neophtyte...

New posters have no knowledge? Hmmmm.....

426 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:42:49pm

re: #423 MandyManners

Ahh yeah!

Seriously, what is so offensive here that you go into outright insults?

Is there something wrong with what I said?

Are you still upset you made a fool out of yourself by supporting McCarthy? (I note you never retracted that too)

427 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:42:53pm

re: #416 MandyManners

Amazing how a fucking neophtyte...

You want so very very desperately to believe Da Hype about ACORN.

428 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #422 MandyManners

I WIN!

The definition of optimism.

429 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:43:28pm

re: #419 windsagio

lol thats positive.

Things have become clear re: the propaganda about Acorn a year and a half ago. The intellectually honest people can modify their views accordingly.

ACORN is plenty dirty...these indictments will have to play out...there is more than nothing there imo

430 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:44:24pm

re: #429 albusteve

thats fine, but linking what Charles posted 21 months ago has very little to do with whats going on now. The 'sting' tape didn't even EXIST yet, did it?

431 jaunte  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:44:30pm

re: #414 Charles

If the head of ACORN wanted to hatch nefarious plots with the President, couldn't she just use the telephone? Why go to the trouble of taking a tour of the White House as a sekrit cover story?
/// Andrew B., this is for you...///

432 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:44:42pm

re: #407 MandyManners

{{Mandy}}

433 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:45:10pm

re: #423 MandyManners

Hey, Mandy? Changed your mind on Global Warming Junk Science, as you said in that very same Soros comment thread?


#157 MandyManners
I'm still looking. In the meantime, here's an article about Soros funding global warming junk science.

Here's another about Soros and democracy.

434 mich-again  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:45:25pm

re: #378 Killgore Trout I think he jumped out in front of the parade.

435 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:45:28pm

re: #429 albusteve

ACORN is plenty dirty...these indictments will have to play out...there is more than nothing there imo

Agreed.

436 swamprat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:45:49pm

re: #407 MandyManners

Memory is OK, though!

437 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:46:22pm

re: #393 JasonA

So hard to pick favorites, but I've always respected Jefferson for challenging his own principles and going forward with the Louisiana Purchase.

Updinged for the reason, but not for the man. The whole raping his slave (yeah, by definition a slave cannot give consent, Sally Hemmings was raped) thing makes me question what the word "principles" even means to such a creature.

438 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:46:36pm

re: #408 Olsonist

Not that big on Kennedy and I'd put Clinton on the 3rd shelf. Maybe put Kennedy there on account of his brilliant handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Not sure on Grant. Not really into the early Presidents but with the exception of Washington (Madison?) they didn't face the massive challenges Lincoln and FDR faced.

For me JFK would be staring down the barrel of the gun during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Most importantly would be NASA and the call to land a man on the moon. He had a unique character in that he could be both a person calling for peace yet able to carry a big stick. He was also a very inspiring person to many people. Civil rights, etc.

A couple of months ago I listened to his brother Robert when he was a guest on the Merv Griffin Show. I was surprised at how centrist to right he was on national security issues and it didn't fit the modern stereotype. He was a lot like his brother in that regard.

439 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:46:52pm

So if ACORN is not a political Dem tool riddled with corruption and gross negligence, and if it is such a wonderful social agency, then why on earth did Pres. Obama throw the whole organization under the bus, and why has he still not come to ACORN's defence?
Pres. Obama has a penchant for dumping his supporters as soon as the political heat is turned up a bit or he judges that they may cost him some political points.
Of course there is the other possibility, namely that ACORN actually is rotten and belongs under the bus.
In either case, for Pres. Obama the buck seems to stop anywhere except here.

440 b_sharp  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:47:22pm

re: #391 Kewalo

As can optimism.

Yes, but it isn't quite as easy and can lead to credulity if skepticism is removed. Skepticism and optimism aren't mutually exclusive.

441 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:47:34pm

re: #430 windsagio

thats fine, but linking what Charles posted 21 months ago has very little to do with whats going on now. The 'sting' tape didn't even EXIST yet, did it?

no and it's all relative...I do not see ACORN as evil or some looming beast that helps drive socialism or whatever...they are what they are, an arm of the Dems and they need to open their books, address the charges against them and come clean as to the allegations in the various states

442 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:47:37pm

re: #438 Gus 802

I"m always a little iffy on Kennedy, he did alot of good stuff, but dude had some Corruption issues.

443 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:47:56pm

re: #439 Spare O'Lake

Simple. Politicians are chicken-shit cowards. :)

444 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:47:56pm

re: #434 mich-again

I think he jumped out in front of the parade.

Oh mich, I was able to finally locate some of the new run of Pepsi Throwback. A grocery store I sometimes shop at had a small supply, which I bought. It should go over well with my gaming group next Saturday. Thank you for calling my attention to it.

445 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:48:44pm

re: #439 Spare O'Lake

So if ACORN is not a political Dem tool riddled with corruption and gross negligence, and if it is such a wonderful social agency, then why on earth did Pres. Obama throw the whole organization under the bus, and why has he still not come to ACORN's defence?
Pres. Obama has a penchant for dumping his supporters as soon as the political heat is turned up a bit or he judges that they may cost him some political points.
Of course there is the other possibility, namely that ACORN actually is rotten and belongs under the bus.
In either case, for Pres. Obama the buck seems to stop anywhere except here.

Quite Concur.

446 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:49:04pm

re: #431 jaunte

That is easy!

Because the CIA and NSA were monitoing the phones, PATRIOT ACT, baby!

:)

447 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:49:28pm

re: #441 albusteve

sure. Any legitimate, reasonable allegations should be addressed.

Partisan Hyperbole shouldn't be looked at carefully. If they spent all their time going after every claim against them, they'd never have any time or money for their actual goal.

448 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:49:53pm

re: #429 albusteve

ACORN is plenty dirty...these indictments will have to play out...there is more than nothing there imo

The charges being levied against the organization are not credible, and some are linked to racism. It is not this cosmic entitiy that can kingmake. It does not have that power. Breitbart is not credible. At all. He's a muckracker and nothig more.

The GOP can attack ACORN mercilessly for their short-term strategy, but they are selling out the future for the present. There's no there-there, the Republicans are dumping boulders in their own fields by going full-Bircher on such a visible symbol to minorities.

449 jaunte  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:50:14pm

re: #446 brainwizard73

I just can't get the hang of it!

450 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:50:38pm

re: #405 MandyManners

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And for what it's worth, I now wish I'd never swallowed that nonsense without investigating it for myself. It was crap then, and it's crap now. I learned that lesson.

451 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:01pm

re: #444 Dark_Falcon

Oh mich, I was able to finally locate some of the new run of Pepsi Throwback. A grocery store I sometimes shop at had a small supply, which I bought. It should go over well with my gaming group next Saturday. Thank you for calling my attention to it.

Pepsi Throwback....sound interesting. Maybe I should stockpile it to sell to Dark_Falcon at an inflated price after the promotion ends. Muhahahaha!
///:)

452 Gus  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:06pm

re: #442 windsagio

I"m always a little iffy on Kennedy, he did alot of good stuff, but dude had some Corruption issues.

I know.

453 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:23pm

re: #447 windsagio

sure. Any legitimate, reasonable allegations should be addressed.

Partisan Hyperbole shouldn't be looked at carefully. If they spent all their time going after every claim against them, they'd never have any time or money for their actual goal.


That's the idea. The scumbags, racists, swine and muckrackers rise up and hurl their feces, and then take it as their confirmation if the organization's guilt that it has to play defense.

454 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:35pm

re: #448 WindUpBird

selling out the future for the present


Updinged just for that (altho' it was a good post anyways). The GOP has been doing that for years, and even as the bills come due, they're still trying to mortgage themselves.


ohh man: It just occurred! GOP as metaphor for the subprime scandal!!

455 swamprat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:39pm

I see that we have always been at war with Eurasia.

456 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:48pm

re: #424 albusteve

most pre bush democrat leaders were pretty gung ho to depose Hussein

Some were, some weren't. Doesn't make the decision to invade a horrible strategic error, rather than continuing to contain him.

457 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:51:56pm

Getting late in Central Standard. 'Nite All.

458 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:52:06pm

re: #407 MandyManners

Well my dear, tired you can remedy.

459 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:52:08pm

re: #442 windsagio

I"m always a little iffy on Kennedy, he did alot of good stuff, but dude had some Corruption issues.

JFK was a slut...his concerns were for him and his brothers...he and Joe Sr and little Ted were all corrupt liars, egoists that believed everything that their father manufactured about them...poor Rose

460 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:52:48pm

When I rank Presidents I do it not just by accomplishments, but also by what they started or set in motion. So Eisenhower is way up on my list for starting the space race, for starting the move to desegregation and civil rights, for starting one of the main engines of our prosperity in the interstate highways. You could argue that several things Kennedy got cred for were really set in motion by Eisenhower.
Anyway, here would be my top four:

Jefferson
Lincoln
Eisenhower
Reagan

No particular order.

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:53:19pm

re: #120 Stuart Leviton

OT: another blog - Hercules Heaves - has posted a story about google molly-coddling Islam. Briefly, the claim is that if you google "Christinaity is", google will suggest "Christianity is bullshit". Similar results for all other major religions except Islam. Type in "Islam is" and google suggests nothing.

The blogger goes on to claim that google provides pornography - I'll take her word for it - as well as allowing Christianity to be defamed along with Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism but when it comes to Islam, google molly-coddles them.

Here's an experiment for the brave. Enter the words "peanut butter is" on google and you will see that peanut butter is also defamed (ah, finally my turn to apologize to Jimmy Carter). But if you google on "gefilte fish is", google does not suggest anything. Google's conduct in all things jihad and gefilte fish has been unconscionable. Is google worried about protecting chrain-ian gefilte fish? I demand an answer.

I will say that her experiment plays out. I have to wonder if they've modified their search parameters.

462 coscolo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:53:28pm

OT: Channel 9 Denver (NBC) and DENVER POST are reporting that Gov Bill Ritter (D) will not seek a second term. Sec of Interior Ken Salazar, Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper, and Congressman Ed Perlmutter (CO7) are mentioned as possibilities to run for job from Dem side. Former Congressman Scott McGinnis looks to have GOP nomination sewed up, but that may change without Ritter in the race. Ritter was lagging in polls.

463 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:53:35pm

re: #453 WindUpBird

That's the idea. The scumbags, racists, swine and muckrackers rise up and hurl their feces, and then take it as their confirmation if the organization's guilt that it has to play defense.

The number of times I have heard "SO WHY DID ACORN APOLOGIZE?!?!?! and such nonsense, is amazing. it reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the game of politics, the anatomy of smears and so on.

464 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:53:50pm

re: #439 Spare O'Lake

So if ACORN is not a political Dem tool riddled with corruption and gross negligence, and if it is such a wonderful social agency, then why on earth did Pres. Obama throw the whole organization under the bus, and why has he still not come to ACORN's defence?
Pres. Obama has a penchant for dumping his supporters as soon as the political heat is turned up a bit or he judges that they may cost him some political points.
Of course there is the other possibility, namely that ACORN actually is rotten and belongs under the bus.
In either case, for Pres. Obama the buck seems to stop anywhere except here.

re: #405 MandyManners

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And for what it's worth, I now wish I'd never swallowed that nonsense without investigating it for myself. It was crap then, and it's crap now. I learned that lesson.

And there's your answer.

465 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:53:59pm

re: #460 Thanos

Not a big fan of Reagan... He didn't really do that much, except get involved in Iran-Contra and throw our deficit into overdrive.

... and don't anybody dare say 'he beat the USSR' I think my brain would break >>

466 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:54:23pm

re: #448 WindUpBird

The charges being levied against the organization are not credible, and some are linked to racism. It is not this cosmic entitiy that can kingmake. It does not have that power. Breitbart is not credible. At all. He's a muckracker and nothig more.

The GOP can attack ACORN mercilessly for their short-term strategy, but they are selling out the future for the present. There's no there-there, the Republicans are dumping boulders in their own fields by going full-Bircher on such a visible symbol to minorities.


and you know this how?...prosecutors in what?...12 states would like to know

467 mich-again  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:54:23pm

re: #460 Thanos

I like your list.

468 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:54:33pm

re: #460 Thanos

When I rank Presidents I do it not just by accomplishments, but also by what they started or set in motion. So Eisenhower is way up on my list for starting the space race, for starting the move to desegregation and civil rights, for starting one of the main engines of our prosperity in the interstate highways. You could argue that several things Kennedy got cred for were really set in motion by Eisenhower.
Anyway, here would be my top four:

Jefferson
Lincoln
Eisenhower
Reagan

No particular order.


FDR would be knocking Reagan off the list for me 8-)

469 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:54:36pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I will say that her experiment plays out. I have to wonder if they've modified their search parameters.

The claim "Islam is" is Blocked by "Bug" in Google Suggest

470 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:55:05pm

re: #449 jaunte

Keep at it, I bet you can be a good subversive if you really believe.

471 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:55:27pm

re: #391 Kewalo
Sorry about downthread, Kewalo - I got carried away with Clinton and Lewinski. Please accept my apology.

472 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:55:32pm

re: #397 windsagio

Panama Canal as well.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:56:02pm

re: #152 The Sanity Inspector

I entered "Islam the religion of", and google's auto-suggestions were 50/50 cheers and jeers. Substituting Judaism and Christianity generated no suggestions.

I've never really bought into the theory of Google deploying biased algorithms. Seek, and google will find.

In the Google main page selection, the text is still silent for me with that.

474 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:56:11pm

re: #469 Bagua

The claim "Islam is" is Blocked by "Bug" in Google Suggest

Type in "Islam religion of", without the quotes.

475 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:56:49pm

re: #471 Spare O'Lake

Sorry about downthread, Kewalo - I got carried away with Clinton and Lewinski. Please accept my apology.

Just thing how Clinton feels about getting carried away with Lewinski.

476 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:57:18pm

re: #172 Varek Raith

Elaborate?

Always have been. Always will be.

477 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:57:20pm

re: #475 Bagua

Just thing how Clinton feels about getting carried away with Lewinski.

Whoa, that's way TMI!
:)

478 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:57:55pm

re: #474 Varek Raith

Type in "Islam religion of", without the quotes.

I added the quoted to show the two words involved, the bug occurs when you type them without quotes.

479 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:58:00pm

re: #429 albusteve

I was here in WA when the indictments went to court for the registration fraud. It was a few (about 7) very low income people that tried to add to the money they were earning by putting false names on registration cards. None of the registration cards made it through the system. I can't help but think that this is what happened other places too. This was no big attempted fraud against the government and in fact was fraud against ACORN.

So maybe these poor people weren't honest, but it was hardly the crime of the century.

480 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:58:20pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I will say that her experiment plays out. I have to wonder if they've modified their search parameters.

There's a follow on article at the same site, Google spokesman says it's a bug that they are investigating.

481 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:58:31pm

re: #475 Bagua

Just thing how Clinton feels about getting carried away with Lewinski.

God, I wish Bush had had an intern to dally with rather than Iraq....

482 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:58:38pm

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

Not cool to use Michelle Obama in an advert without her permission. That's dishonest and wrong.

I love the explanation that they didn't ask her permission, because they know she couldn't give it.

483 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:58:55pm

oops, gotta go shower for work!

"Don't let the bastards grind ya down!"

484 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:59:24pm

A pun gets a downding?

485 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:59:42pm

re: #465 windsagio

Sorry, I just have to:

Reagan beat the USSR...

486 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:00:52pm

re: #479 Kewalo

I was here in WA when the indictments went to court for the registration fraud. It was a few (about 7) very low income people that tried to add to the money they were earning by putting false names on registration cards. None of the registration cards made it through the system. I can't help but think that this is what happened other places too. This was no big attempted fraud against the government and in fact was fraud against ACORN.

So maybe these poor people weren't honest, but it was hardly the crime of the century.

another good topic...the Blockbuster Political Crime of the Century!....I guess Dick Nixon would be in the toward the top

487 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:00:57pm

re: #465 windsagio

Not a big fan of Reagan... He didn't really do that much, except get involved in Iran-Contra and throw our deficit into overdrive.

... and don't anybody dare say 'he beat the USSR' I think my brain would break >>

I might not like what Reagan did, but he did it well. The fact is he presided over some pretty good times.

488 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:01:00pm

re: #485 brainwizard73

Sorry, I just have to:

Reagan beat the USSR...

Correction. Reagan defeated Grenada. Sorry for the confusion.

489 windsagio  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:01:20pm

re: #485 brainwizard73

I really have to go, bu tthat sound was me smashing my head through my monitor. If there are any typos, sorry I can't see them. Theres 100% down the drain!

490 acacia  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:01:35pm

Whatever there is to say about the WH visit (which is much ado about nothing either way in my opinion) doesn't take away from the fact that ACORN is a dysfunctional organization. To me, its biggest problem is that it evolved into a political organization even though it was formed as a non profit prohibited from political activity. Breitbart is overly defensive because he risks credibility on the videos with his error on the Lewis visit even though they are completely unrelated. The videos show real problems. Even ACORN admits that as they dismissed several people who were shown giving advice. It was a popular video because it showed in real life understandable terms how an organization can lose its values. It's important because it is an example of how a purportedly private group can become so entwined in our government through political connections and lucrative contracts that it is a defacto part of our government. As such, it's failure to adhere to basic principles is important.

491 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:01:46pm

re: #485 brainwizard73

Sorry, I just have to:

Reagan beat the USSR...

Well, it wasn't just him, but he played the cardinal role. Margaret Thatcher and John Paul II also played key roles. Between them they poured the strategic pressure upon the USSR till it broke.

492 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:01:52pm

re: #448 WindUpBird

I couldn't agree more. And I'll add as a life long dem I don't know if I've ever even met anyone that worked for ACORN. If they are a dem group you would think that I would at least know one.

493 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:02:16pm

re: #485 brainwizard73

Sorry, I just have to:

Reagan beat the USSR...

Ummm...no. The USSR collapsed on its own inefficiencies, which had been building up for decades. The final blow was Afghanistan. It broke them.

494 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:02:31pm

re: #272 JasonA

Wow. I never saw that ad. Funny, I don't remember them using the President and First Lady in ads in previous administrations. Maybe they weren't that memorable?

As for the rest, good for you! And your better half!

I never saw Laura wear fur.

495 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:05pm

re: #484 Bagua

A pun gets a downding?

of course....you could post the Lords Prayer and get killed with dings

496 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:08pm

re: #399 Gus 802

National parks, conservation.

And being a super bad-ass.

497 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:17pm

re: #465 windsagio

Not a big fan of Reagan... He didn't really do that much, except get involved in Iran-Contra and throw our deficit into overdrive.

... and don't anybody dare say 'he beat the USSR' I think my brain would break >>

One of the considerations is what these Presidents did to open up the future. FDR just social engineered. RR advanced our potentials and prosperity in several areas by freeing a lot of countries in the world and by advancing our miltech greatly. Both are great accomplishments.

498 swamprat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:18pm

re: #481 austin_blue

God, I wish Bush had had an intern to dally with rather than Iraq...


The world can never have enough dictators, eh?
Quick, name three dictators the left hates, 1000 bonus points if they do business with Russia.

499 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:34pm

re: #488 Olsonist

Correction. Reagan defeated Grenada. Sorry for the confusion.

And in so doing he put the lie to the Brezhnev Doctrine. A Communist takeover was reversed and a island was freed. What's not to like?

500 albusteve  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:03:44pm

re: #488 Olsonist

Correction. Reagan defeated Grenada. Sorry for the confusion.

that was funny...heh...kicked their ass

501 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:04:15pm

re: #493 austin_blue

Ummm...no. The USSR collapsed on its own inefficiencies, which had been building up for decades. The final blow was Afghanistan. It broke them.

And we played a major role in that defeat by arming the rebels the Soviets were fighting.

502 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:04:36pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

Yep, but the sound of someone losing their mind when you claim Reagan did it all is priceless.

503 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:05:58pm

re: #471 Spare O'Lake

Sorry about downthread, Kewalo - I got carried away with Clinton and Lewinski. Please accept my apology.

Apology accepted and please don't worry about it. We all get carried away sometimes. The first or second day I was here I told someone to F off and I'm still embarrassed about that one.

504 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:06:26pm

re: #502 brainwizard73

Yep, but the sound of someone losing their mind when you claim Reagan did it all is priceless.

Concur. I love it too.

505 abolitionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:06:45pm

re: #437 goddamnedfrank

Updinged for the reason, but not for the man. The whole raping his slave (yeah, by definition a slave cannot give consent, Sally Hemmings was raped) thing makes me question what the word "principles" even means to such a creature.

I believe Jefferson was accompanied by Ms Hemmings during his ambassadorship to France. By the laws there, she was free, not slave, and was advised of those facts, personally by TJ. Yet she returned to the States later. (Such was the portrayal in a biographical made-for-tv movie.)

506 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:06:54pm

re: #495 albusteve

of course...you could post the Lords Prayer and get killed with dings

I suspect that if I went all militant atheist in a post, I'd get quite a barrage of downdings. ;)

507 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:07:40pm

re: #497 Thanos

One of the considerations is what these Presidents did to open up the future. FDR just social engineered. RR advanced our potentials and prosperity in several areas by freeing a lot of countries in the world and by advancing our miltech greatly. Both are great accomplishments.

Yeah, FDR just socially engineered us out of The Great Depression and socially engineered us through victory in World War II. That's why the generation that he socially engineered gets called The Greatest Generation.

508 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:07:45pm

re: #493 austin_blue

Ummm...no. The USSR collapsed on its own inefficiencies, which had been building up for decades. The final blow was Afghanistan. It broke them.

It's all perspective austin_blue, Afghanistan was the "final blow" greatly supported by US support for the jihadis.

The inefficiencies built up for decades but Reagan pushed them over the abyss. His effect is debatable as to the amount but it is not nothing.

"Mr Gorbachev tear down this wall."

You can't take those words and his historic role away from him.

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:07:57pm

re: #332 JasonA

And what to say about this?!?

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

I'd love to throw that out there in front of the wingnuts as an Obama quote and see them go crazy. But Google makes this sort of thing harder.

510 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:08:50pm

re: #493 austin_blue

I was respoinding to a promise to go nuts if someone said "reagan did it all " so I wan't really serious here. No one person can do it all. However, the military and diplomatic steps taken by Reagan were instrumental in forcing the USSR to break.

Just like the water in the rocks.

511 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:08:54pm

re: #508 Bagua

It's all perspective austin_blue, Afghanistan was the "final blow" greatly supported by US support for the jihadis.

The inefficiencies built up for decades but Reagan pushed them over the abyss. His effect is debatable as to the amount but it is not nothing.

"Mr Gorbachev tear down this wall."

You can't take those words and his historic role away from him.

Didn't the Soviets also spend themselves silly trying to keep up with us, militarily speaking?

512 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:09:15pm

re: #493 austin_blue

Ummm...no. The USSR collapsed on its own inefficiencies, which had been building up for decades. The final blow was Afghanistan. It broke them.

Sorry but that "collapse" took a push. Reagan read and understood The Strategy of Technology by Pournelle and Possony, and he used their thoughts from that and their economic warfare sections to help that push. Everyone laughed at star wars then, but it was a key factor.

The bad news is that the Chinese and the Russians now understand the strategy and are putting it in play against us.

513 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:09:47pm

re: #498 swamprat

The world can never have enough dictators, eh?
Quick, name three dictators the left hates, 1000 bonus points if they do business with Russia.

Mugabe, Khamenei, Than Shwe. Russian tech sales on two out of three.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:10:02pm

re: #358 WindUpBird

Good call about PETA and the NRA being sort of in the same extremist realm. as a gun owner, I wouldn't go anywhere near the NRA. And ugh PETA. *shudder*

My dad quit the NRA when President Bush Sr. did. No one in the family is a PETA member, but my grandmother used to send them donations. Looong story.

515 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:11:48pm

re: #385 austin_blue

32 days in office

Hardly his falt. The poor man DIED.

516 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:11:49pm

G'night all...thanks, I've really had fun today. Even when we disagree and you piss me off I know how smart you all are. See you soon.

And BTW one of these days I'd really like to have a conversation about Soros. I like and respect him.

517 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:11:56pm

re: #509 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd love to throw that out there in front of the wingnuts as an Obama quote and see them go crazy. But Google makes this sort of thing harder.

Who taught them how to use Google?

518 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:11:57pm

re: #511 Varek Raith

Didn't the Soviets also spend themselves silly trying to keep up with us, militarily speaking?

Of course, they are to blame for their own failure as well. It wasn't like a murder were there is one murderer. There are a great number of factors involved. Some key events transpired during Reagan's watch and he was actively engaged in making them happen. Let's not strip that away from him in the desire to rewrite history according to a partisan narrative.

519 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:12:04pm

re: #501 Dark_Falcon

And we played a major role in that defeat by arming the rebels the Soviets were fighting.

Yes, and then we abdicated, greasing the skids for the Taliban, funded by the Pakistani secret service. Sweet, eh?

520 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:12:07pm

re: #511 Varek Raith

Didn't the Soviets also spend themselves silly trying to keep up with us, militarily speaking?

Yes, but that strategy got started by Truman and continued by Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Bush. Right Wing mythology needs a hero and Bush isn't that interesting so they give it to the actor from central casting.

521 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:15:36pm

re: #520 Olsonist

Yes, but that strategy got started by Truman and continued by Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Bush. Right Wing mythology needs a hero and Bush isn't that interesting so they give it to the actor from central casting.

And moonbat mythology needs an argument to diminish every actual accomplishment of a Republican President.

Whatever. Partisan, exaggerations don't help lead us to understanding.

522 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:17:07pm

re: #521 Bagua

Defeating the USSR is not an actual Reagan accomplishment, and I doubt you'd vote for Eisenhower.

523 brainwizard73  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:17:46pm

That is it, I can't stand this slow connection anymore. Good night and drive safely.

524 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:18:09pm

re: #469 Bagua

The claim "Islam is" is Blocked by "Bug" in Google Suggest

OK...that sounds vaguely murky, but I also do not care much.

525 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:18:19pm

re: #518 Bagua

Of course, they are to blame for their own failure as well. It wasn't like a murder were there is one murderer. There are a great number of factors involved. Some key events transpired during Reagan's watch and he was actively engaged in making them happen. Let's not strip that away from him in the desire to rewrite history according to a partisan narrative.

Oh, I wasn't trying to diminish any President's accomplishments. I just don't see the collapse of the Soviet Union as a partisan issue. I see it as an American victory.

526 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:18:40pm

re: #522 Olsonist

Defeating the USSR is not an actual Reagan accomplishment, and I doubt you'd vote for Eisenhower.

Aw, c'mon man. You could do that to take away almost any accomplishment. Could FDR have won WW2 without the Brits and Russians? We're usually on the same page, but you're not playing fair :P

527 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:19:47pm

re: #503 Kewalo

Apology accepted and please don't worry about it. We all get carried away sometimes. The first or second day I was here I told someone to F off and I'm still embarrassed about that one.

No need to feel embarrassed. What impresses me is you grew from it and now have taught. That's worth an up-ding.

528 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:20:02pm

re: #525 Varek Raith

Oh, I wasn't trying to diminish any President's accomplishments. I just don't see the collapse of the Soviet Union as a partisan issue. I see it as an American victory.

Agreed, my point also.

529 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:21:50pm

re: #512 Thanos

Sorry but that "collapse" took a push. Reagan read and understood The Strategy of Technology by Pournelle and Possony, and he used their thoughts from that and their economic warfare sections to help that push. Everyone laughed at star wars then, but it was a key factor.

The bad news is that the Chinese and the Russians now understand the strategy and are putting it in play against us.

The good news, though, is that we are much stronger economically than the Soviet Union ever was. They will try that tactic, but I am certain it will fail.

530 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:22:40pm

re: #493 austin_blue

Ummm...no. The USSR collapsed on its own inefficiencies, which had been building up for decades. The final blow was Afghanistan. It broke them.

I was absolutely shocked, this past decade, to discover how many old evil leftists still defend the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and how many young fuzzy leftists who don't want anyone to be hurt in wars eeeeeeever don't even understand what they're saying. (FUCKING TED RALL.)

Of course, when it comes to Afghanistan I can blame and point fingers for a long time, covering many political bases.

531 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:24:45pm

re: #525 Varek Raith

Oh, I wasn't trying to diminish any President's accomplishments. I just don't see the collapse of the Soviet Union as a partisan issue. I see it as an American victory.

Still, too many of the Dems weren't behind Reagan and some like Ron Dellums were actively supporting the Communist in Grenada.

532 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:25:12pm

re: #526 JasonA

I give credit for winning the Cold War to each of the Presidents, but first to Truman. Bagua's notion that I have no respect for Republican Presidents just isn't so. Obviously I'm in awe of Lincoln and as I've said before Ike was a great President.

As for FDR, yes it took a coalition and a coalition with Stalin is an unholy coalition. But FDR and Truman got us through it and then Truman through Bush got us through the Cold War along with Europe, kicking and screaming.

This notion the RR stared down the USSR comes from some movie.

533 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:26:00pm

re: #530 SanFranciscoZionist

[...]

Of course, when it comes to Afghanistan I can blame and point fingers for a long time, covering many political bases.

Exactly, one could reference numerous books and consider a period of at least 300 years.

History is fascinating and complex, when we start reducing it to rhetorical partisan politics it becomes distorted.

534 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:27:41pm

re: #505 abolitionist

I believe Jefferson was accompanied by Ms Hemmings during his ambassadorship to France. By the laws there, she was free, not slave, and was advised of those facts, personally by TJ. Yet she returned to the States later. (Such was the portrayal in a biographical made-for-tv movie.)

She was a young teenage girl (Abigail Adams was horrified that this little girl had been sent to take care of Jefferson's daughter, thinking her little more than a child herself), and Jefferson went to some lengths to make sure that other slaves of his who might have been able to support themselves in France were NOT apprised of that right--Sally's brother James, for one, who later turned down an offer to be Jefferson's White House chef. I'd take the movie with a grain of salt.

I like to imagine that she loved him. It's better than the alternatives. She was his late wife's half-sister, and I suspect that for him she was a way of getting Martha back.

535 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:27:55pm

re: #530 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, but you live in the Bay Area which contains Berkeley. Some of those old wackos in the hills are just nutz.

536 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:29:43pm

re: #532 Olsonist

I give credit for winning the Cold War to each of the Presidents, but first to Truman. Bagua's notion that I have no respect for Republican Presidents just isn't so. Obviously I'm in awe of Lincoln and as I've said before Ike was a great President.

As for FDR, yes it took a coalition and a coalition with Stalin is an unholy coalition. But FDR and Truman got us through it and then Truman through Bush got us through the Cold War along with Europe, kicking and screaming.

This notion the RR stared down the USSR comes from some movie.

Red Dawn?

Seriously, though, I can't look at it and say that it was a given, that it would have happened no matter who was in office. So I have to give him his due credit.

537 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:29:58pm

re: #535 Olsonist

Yeah, but you live in the Bay Area which contains Berkeley. Some of those old wackos in the hills are just nutz.

That we agree on.

538 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:30:09pm

re: #532 Olsonist

I give credit for winning the Cold War to each of the Presidents, but first to Truman. Bagua's notion that I have no respect for Republican Presidents just isn't so. Obviously I'm in awe of Lincoln and as I've said before Ike was a great President.
[...]

I am speaking about Reagan as he is the subject, and by extension I am also generalising.

Yes Ronald Reagan did "stare down the USSR" but he also reached out to them, reasoned with them, made friends with their leader and "won" with words, negotiation, and had the luck of events and timing on his side.

It would take numerous books and several movies to give the whole thing justice, and there would still be more to say about it.

539 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:30:38pm

re: #475 Bagua

Just thing how Clinton feels about getting carried away with Lewinski.

One of those moments where I strongly agree with you. The Dude had a simple choice, to either pull his shit together look the camera dead on and say it was none of our business, or lie to the nation. Total fail.

540 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:31:40pm

re: #533 Bagua

Exactly, one could reference numerous books and consider a period of at least 300 years.

History is fascinating and complex, when we start reducing it to rhetorical partisan politics it becomes distorted.

Quite Concur.

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:31:43pm

re: #535 Olsonist

Yeah, but you live in the Bay Area which contains Berkeley. Some of those old wackos in the hills are just nutz.

Yeah. It's true.

And some of them have been holding hands with the devil for decades. I'm a real bleeding-heart liberal. When I get close enough to some of these doctrinal old Leninists to see the heart of darkness I tend to get real cranky. (FUCKING TED RALL!)

542 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:33:01pm

All this makes me wonder... who is your favorite President based on his accomplishments outside of the Presidency? Maybe excluding Washington as too easy a choice? Maybe not? Just a thought that I'm thinking on right now.

543 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:34:03pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. It's true.

And some of them have been holding hands with the devil for decades. I'm a real bleeding-heart liberal. When I get close enough to some of these doctrinal old Leninists to see the heart of darkness I tend to get real cranky. (FUCKING TED RALL!)

Ted Rall is a shithead, no doubt about it. Its not some much his politics as the hateful way he attacks anyone he disagrees with. The man is vicious and mean-spirited.

544 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:34:15pm

re: #539 goddamnedfrank

One of those moments where I strongly agree with you.

Steady on man, you should give me some sort of warning, I spilled my drink.

545 abolitionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:34:37pm

re: #534 SanFranciscoZionist

I did take parts of that movie with a grain of salt, and I thank you for the reply.

546 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:42:04pm

re: #542 JasonA

All this makes me wonder... who is your favorite President based on his accomplishments outside of the Presidency? Maybe excluding Washington as too easy a choice? Maybe not? Just a thought that I'm thinking on right now.

I'm going with long odds & big money, William Henry Harrison; death by inauguration speech.

547 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:42:39pm

re: #542 JasonA

Post Presidency? Pre? I like the larger than life Teddy Roosevelt. I think he'd beat the crap out of the rest of them and they'd like him for it.

548 abolitionist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:44:08pm

Jefferson in Paris

is a 1995 American-French historical drama film directed by James Ivory. The screenplay by Ruth Prawer Jhabvala is a semi-fictional account of Thomas Jefferson's tenure as the Ambassador of the United States to France prior to his Presidency, and his alleged relationships with artist Maria Cosway and slave Sally Hemings.
549 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:49:16pm

re: #547 Olsonist

Post Presidency? Pre? I like the larger than life Teddy Roosevelt. I think he'd beat the crap out of the rest of them and they'd like him for it.

Yeah, I was thinking Pre. Without all the trappings, so to say. And I am heavily leaning towards Teddy myself.

550 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:53:16pm

Here's a kick in the head. According to Wikipedia the Brzezinski and Jimmy Carter are credited with creating conditions so as to get the Soviets to invade Afghanistan.

Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting US policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap ... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."

551 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:54:27pm

re: #549 JasonA

Teddy. He needs no mythology. Fiercely American.

552 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 9:56:10pm

re: #550 Stuart Leviton

Here's a kick in the head. According to Wikipedia the Brzezinski and Jimmy Carter are credited with creating conditions so as to get the Soviets to invade Afghanistan.

Forget it, Stu. It's Wikitown.

553 Olsonist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:05:47pm

Interesting. Didn't know that. Like I said, each of the Presidents from Truman on down gets their credit.

554 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:15:01pm

re: #505 abolitionist

I believe Jefferson was accompanied by Ms Hemmings during his ambassadorship to France. By the laws there, she was free, not slave, and was advised of those facts, personally by TJ. Yet she returned to the States later. (Such was the portrayal in a biographical made-for-tv movie.)

Wow, just wow, so what you're saying is that in a foreign, still white and classically xenephobic french nation whose language she was just learning, Jefferson re-enslaved Sally upon her return which she only agreed to in exchange for a promise to free her children. Yeah, I think I understand.

There's technical freedom, and then there's real freedom, ya' dig?

555 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:17:29pm

re: #553 Olsonist

Interesting. Didn't know that. Like I said, each of the Presidents from Truman on down gets their credit.

Well, that fair. I still think Reagan deserves a greater share than most, but its entirely true he wasn't the only one who deserves credit.

556 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:25:08pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for that.

On another note, the fighting in the Solomons had another effect of considerable import to avanti. The IJN's successful torpedo tactics proved almost impossible to counter with the slow-firing 8-inch guns that USN heavy cruisers mounted. This created critical demand for a faster firing 8-inch gun, which was finally put into service in the Des Moines-class, of which the Newport News was a member.

The Des Moines class were extremely nasty. Their main target in the 50's was presumed to be the Soviet Sverdlov class cruisers. Sad to say, but I wish the Alaska class battlecruisers could haver had a similar career.

557 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:32:08pm

re: #556 celticdragon

The Des Moines class were extremely nasty. Their main target in the 50's was presumed to be the Soviet Sverdlov class cruisers. Sad to say, but I wish the Alaska class battlecruisers could haver had a similar career.

The problem was that, as avanti noted, the Des Moines-class could lay down much more fire in the same period of time than the Alaska-class could. In the post-war period, the Iowa-class was seen as enough to handle a fire support task requiring guns bigger than 8-inch. The Alaskas were fine ships, but there was simply no role for them that another class couldn't fill better.

558 Sinistershade  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:34:41pm

re: #552 Dark_Falcon

Forget it, Stu. It's Wikitown.

Upding for the wonderful reference.

559 Sinistershade  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:40:26pm

Though I'm late to the party, may I suggest that Mr. Gorbachev should get more than a little credit for the Soviet Union ending when it did? Without his liberalization of the media and his refusal to send troops into the Eastern Bloc countries as their opposition movements were gaining steam, I think the Evil Empire might have chugged on for a good number of years more on momentum alone.

560 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:48:15pm

re: #559 Sinistershade

Though I'm late to the party, may I suggest that Mr. Gorbachev should get more than a little credit for the Soviet Union ending when it did? Without his liberalization of the media and his refusal to send troops into the Eastern Bloc countries as their opposition movements were gaining steam, I think the Evil Empire might have chugged on for a good number of years more on momentum alone.

That is a good point, but that credit is somewhat muted by what can be called the Chris Rock Factor. In the same way that Rock answers someone who says "I take care of my kids!" with "You're Supposed To!", Gorbachev's actions mostly proved that he was a fundamentally decent person. Credit is somewhat muted when the actions a person took were simply the ones that did not make him a monster. That said, he does deserves some credit for seeing what was happening and accepting it decently.

561 Sinistershade  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 10:56:54pm

re: #560 Dark_Falcon

Gorbachev's actions mostly proved that he was a fundamentally decent person. Credit is somewhat muted when the actions a person took were simply the ones that did not make him a monster. That said, he does deserves some credit for seeing what was happening and accepting it decently.

I can see that point of view. For me, it's more a man knowing what's right and bravely pushing for it against an incredibly strong historical tide. The changes he managed were extraordinary given how entrenched and inflexible their system was. If the others sitting with him at the table of the Politburo had had any idea who he really was, he never would have been selected as General Secretary. I can't claim to be a scholar on the subject, though.

562 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 11:05:52pm

If you're not a Jim Carrey fan, don't let him scare you away from seeing this clip from one of his lesser known films (directed by the wonderful Frank Darabont of Shawshank Redemption and The Green Mile fame) The Majestic. He's a young Hollywood screenwriter who's been blacklisted. The plot is too hard to explain here and now, but he's called to a senate hearing committee and he actually does deliver a top notch speech. If you are a Carrey fan, then here's one more that displays his ability.


563 b_sharp  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 4:35:13am

re: #532 Olsonist

I give credit for winning the Cold War to each of the Presidents, but first to Truman. Bagua's notion that I have no respect for Republican Presidents just isn't so. Obviously I'm in awe of Lincoln and as I've said before Ike was a great President.

As for FDR, yes it took a coalition and a coalition with Stalin is an unholy coalition. But FDR and Truman got us through it and then Truman through Bush got us through the Cold War along with Europe, kicking and screaming.

This notion the RR stared down the USSR comes from some movie.

Did Gorbachev have nothing to do with the dissolution of the USSR?

564 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 4:45:13am

re: #563 b_sharp

Yeah, Gorbachev and Yeltsin deserve a lot of credit for seeing the West clearly:

565 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 5:35:19am

re: #562 Silvergirl

If you're not a Jim Carrey fan, don't let him scare you away from seeing this clip from one of his lesser known films (directed by the wonderful Frank Darabont of Shawshank Redemption and The Green Mile fame) The Majestic. He's a young Hollywood screenwriter who's been blacklisted. The plot is too hard to explain here and now, but he's called to a senate hearing committee and he actually does deliver a top notch speech. If you are a Carrey fan, then here's one more that displays his ability.

I was a fan of his, before he hooked up with Jenny McCarthy and made her anti-vaccination cause his own. Since then, any respect I may have is shadowed by the harm he is doing.

566 Lopakhin  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 8:49:47am

The clearest criticism I have found of the Breitbart/citizen-journalists 'expose' of ACORN is here:

http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/HomePageNews/2009Dec/Video_Transcript_Analysis_withExcperts.pdf

Some of the most striking examples:

Transcripts reveal that O’Keefe and Giles said they needed ACORN’s help to protect Giles from a violent pimp—but they carefully edited this out of their videos1. O’Keefe and Giles used clever editing and voiceovers to hide a key fact that the transcripts show to be true in each case: In each office, the duo claimed that 20-year old Hannah was being threatened by a violent abusive pimp.

While their press releases claim they were posing as a “prostitute and a pimp,” the transcripts show that O’Keefe consistently introduced himself as Giles’ boyfriend trying to protect her.3 While we have seen videos of O’Keefe’s ridiculous “pimp” get-up, with Chinchilla cape, hat, and walking cane, these are all outdoor visuals. In the actual videos in the offices, every view of O’Keefe shows him dressed in normal casual business
attire.

I checked up some of these refutations in the links provided by ACORN at the end of that PDF file to the transcripts on Biggovernment.com and they do check out. Apologies if this has been posted earlier in the thread but I couldn't find it with a search.

567 charles_martel  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:52:01am

My opinion of ACORN is that they are a nasty, thuggish organization. This is not based on anything the GOP said, or anything in the media. It is based on my wife's personal experience with them. She worked at a Spanish bank in NYC, and ACORN came in and bullied, intimidated, and threatened the bank, demanding a bribe not to start a legal campaign against the bank. Now, this is a bank that specializes in being in low-income, minority neighborhoods. This bank actually opening branches in neighborhoods that other, national banks refused to do. ACORN was harrassing a bank that actually helps poor people, but they didn't seem to care.

Now, I'm probably going to be downdinged for this, but I need to state the truth based on actual experience, not media lies.


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