Tea Party Leader Warns GOP Pols: We’re ‘Turning Our Guns’ On You

Man. This is just classic. The Washington Times reports that “tea party leader” Dale Robertson is warning the GOP that the teabaggers are “turning their guns” on Republicans who aren’t far enough to the right.

A founder of the Tea Party movement said Wednesday he had a warning for Republican leaders: Back conservative candidates or else other states will suffer the same backlash that toppled Florida’s Republican Party chairman this week.

“We are turning our guns on anyone who doesn’t support constitutional conservative candidates,” said Dale Robertson, who operates teaparty.org out of Houston and helped start the movement nearly two years ago.

He declined to say which states are next on the Tea Party’s hit list. He said party leaders in those states would be warned privately, but the movement’s wrath “will be very clear publicly” if they don’t listen.

“If they continue to do things like they did in Florida, it’s not going to be good for them,” Mr. Robertson said. “If they don’t get that and their party chairmen don’t get that, they are going to be ostracized.”

If the name “Dale Robertson” sounds familiar, it’s because we featured him just last Monday, for showing up at the February 2009 tea party in Houston with this sign:

The Washington Times doesn’t mention this little embarrassing incident, of course.

These are the people who think they have the GOP by the short and curlies. And the sad, pathetic fact is that … they do.

(Hat tip: KT.)

UPDATE at 1/6/10 4:36:09 pm:

I’ve received several emails full of insults from people saying that Dale Robertson is not a leader of a tea party organization, but in fact was kicked out of the rally at which this picture was taken. Apparently I was supposed to know this, somehow.

I suggest these people save their insults for the Washington Times — because I quoted their article citing Robertson as a founder of teaparty.org.

Jump to bottom

236 comments

1 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:39:54am

Any people still think the GOP are going to be in prime shape come this years elections?............

Well........??

2 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:41:02am

Say it again, SFZ:

"We are turning our guns on..."

Somehow that sounded more like a figure of speech before people started showing up to rallies with their guns.

Just a thought.

3 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:41:23am

With your indulgence, a re-post from below (owing to greater relevance on this new string.)

It appears that the great ammunition buying frenzy that started with Obama's election has finally run its course, 14 months and 10 billion rounds later. Hoarders might finally have realized that the Big O is not going to send his ACORN Obammunist militia door to door to confiscate firearms, or maybe they've just run out of storage space or money or both. Supplies are good at most retailers, but with a significant jump in prices from a year and a half ago.

4 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:42:58am

re: #1 wozzablog

The GOP may end up picking up seats by default and in spite of their own misadventures and the right wingers going off the rails primarily because the Democrats own fringe has pushed the party out of step with mainstream Americans on some key issues (and it's the economy, stupid!).

The Democrats aren't exactly in great shape, and the GOP may pick up seats but not because they're so much better than the Democrats.

5 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:45:33am

the GOP will gain some ground in 2010 even if they don't deserve it. the political cycle seems almost preordained in that respect. and that is exactly why the mature voices in the GOP need to let these lunatics know that even though the GOP has a "big tent," there is no room for the likes of robertson.

6 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:45:54am

re: #4 lawhawk

What issues do you feel that the Democrat's fringe has successfully pushed?

7 Baier  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:47:22am

It's funny that Dale Robertson would say that tea baggers are right wing, when Brooks in the NYT claims they are independents. I think the tea bag movement is a vacuum, expect instead of having no air, it has no sane people.

8 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:47:59am

re: #4 lawhawk

Some, but not many, people around have been using phrases like "democrat bloodbath"............

The democrats may collapse to some extent - but I have a serious feeling the GOP is going to be eating it's own come november on a scale that makes NY23 look like a kindergarten dispute over juiceboxes.

9 Yashmak  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:48:28am
The Democrats aren't exactly in great shape, and the GOP may pick up seats but not because they're so much better than the Democrats.

- lawhawk

It's more like some sort of Jacksonian voter revolt, where the voters are just plain fed up with congress in general, and repeatedly vote out the majority until they get a group that makes a POSITIVE difference.

The folks on the fringe of the tea party movement, who seem to be driving it, aren't looking far down the road. If they were, they'd probably realize even if they manage to get their way, and put a large number of pols of their liking in congress, they'll simply represent the next majority to get booted by voters in the following congressional elections, out of discontent with their exclusionary message.

10 Baier  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:48:30am

re: #7 Baier

It's funny that Dale Robertson would say that tea baggers are right wing, when Brooks in the NYT claims they are independents. I think the tea bag movement is a vacuum, expect except instead of having no air, it has no sane people.

>
PIMF

11 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:48:49am

re: #6 Obdicut

On health care - the polls suggest that people aren't happy with what's happened, even if they want some kind of change.

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:50:29am

I wonder if Mr. Robertson has heard the expression "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Probably not. Mr. Lincoln was probably too "progressive" for him.

13 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:51:22am

When I tried to get on LGF a few minutes ago, I got this:

If you can see this page, then the people who manage this server have installed cPanel and WebHost Manager (WHM) which use the Apache Web server software and the Apache Interface to OpenSSL (mod_ssl) successfully. They now have to add content to this directory and replace this placeholder page, or else point the server at their real content.

ATTENTION!
If you are seeing this page instead of the site you expected, please contact the administrator of the site involved. (Try sending an email to .) Although this site is running cPanel, WebHost Manager, and Apache software it almost certainly has no other connection to cPanel Inc. or the Apache Group. Please do not send mail about this site or its contents to cPanel Inc. or the Apache Group.

About cPanel:
cPanel is a leading provider of software for the webhosting industry. If you would like to learn more about cPanel please visit our website at [Link: www.cpanel.net....] Please be advised that cPanel Inc. is not a web hosting company, and as such has no control over content found elsewhere on this site.

About Apache HTTP Server:
The Apache HTTP Server is an open source web server which powers many of the worlds web sites. The Apache HTTP server is part of the Apache Group's many influential projects. Their efforts have helped shape much the world wide web, and they continue to be a dominating force in the web hosting industry.

14 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:52:01am

I have personally decided never to vote for either "D"or "R" for the foreseeable future.

Considering that the two major parties have held the governance of the nation between them for many decades, they are together equally culpable for the state we are now in, and I would give them, considered together, a failing grade.

They are certainly now way beyond cooperating for the common good.

15 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:52:49am

re: #13 MandyManners

I got to this page by going through my whatsits in my bar thingy to get to the previous thread.

16 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:53:46am

re: #13 MandyManners

Must have been some kind of glitch in the data stream. No problems here.

17 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #11 lawhawk

Okay. There's a muddle of reports about health care, given that the plans have been promoted in such a crappy way, and the Democrats have failed to sell the idea.

However, I'm at a loss to see how the health care plans have come from the Democrat's fringe, at least, the ones currently being considered.

Can you explain?

18 citicenx  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:54:40am

re: #12 EmmmieG

True... the bill as it now stands is much weaker than many would like. But it's a base to build on... and hopefully we'll see some real positive change in the not too distant future.

19 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:54:47am

I'd really like to know how Steele really feels about having to appease a guy prancing around with an N word sign. Steele is allowed to criticize Rush who's too racist to be part owner of an NFL team. That can't be a comfortable position for Steele. I wonder why he bothers with it.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:54:48am

re: #7 Baier

It's funny that Dale Robertson would say that tea baggers are right wing, when Brooks in the NYT claims they are independents. I think the tea bag movement is a vacuum, expect instead of having no air, it has no sane people.

You can be both right-wing and independent. Does Brooks mean that they are not tied to the GOP?

21 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:55:01am

re: #16 Charles

Must have been some kind of glitch in the data stream. No problems here.

I'm gonna' log off and try again.

22 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:55:38am

Now I am less shocked by the refusal by the NM state party chair to denounce the wacko Paulian running in the 3rd Congressional District. I didn't know he actually had guns pointed at him.

23 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:55:38am

An MD friend of mine says the current health care bill will just make the insurance companies richer.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:55:57am

re: #12 EmmmieG

I wonder if Mr. Robertson has heard the expression "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Probably not. Mr. Lincoln was probably too "progressive" for him.

Nanny stater. Eastern elite. Thought he knew what was best for the Southern states, even after the voters had spoken.

//

25 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:56:19am

re: #21 MandyManners

I got it again.

26 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:58:04am

There's a long way to go between now and the mid-terms.

My predictions:

Anyone who is going to vote R because of health care reform was going to vote R anyway.

Teabaggers will only be a factor in a few races here and there. They have no depth in an electoral sense.

And yes, it is going to be all about the economy. If it has visibly recovered (not 100%, but enough to see progress without the use of powerful scientific instruments) by Labor Day, then this becomes a routine mid-term. If not, it could be a blood bath.

27 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:58:19am

Dodd retiring in Connecticut is a good thing since the CT AG will run. He's a slam dunk. Lamont will run for Gov. The question now becomes who runs against Lieberman who will probably run as a Rep.

28 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:58:38am

re: #11 lawhawk

The negative polling includes pissed people on the left who don't like the delay on the exhange and the loss of the public option. Those people will never vote R. They will return home to the Dems - because they will see the alternative.

A bunch of the people least happy with healthcare reform on the other side will hive off to any tea-partier or far right con.

Any specific GOP rebound from Healthcare may not be as great as people would hope.

29 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 11:58:55am

re: #3 Shiplord Kirel

With your indulgence, a re-post from below (owing to greater relevance on this new string.)

It appears that the great ammunition buying frenzy that started with Obama's election has finally run its course, 14 months and 10 billion rounds later. Hoarders might finally have realized that the Big O is not going to send his ACORN Obammunist militia door to door to confiscate firearms, or maybe they've just run out of storage space or money or both. Supplies are good at most retailers, but with a significant jump in prices from a year and a half ago.

Eh, at some of the mailorder places, perhaps. A better check is Ammo Engine - a price aggregation site. Around here the big stores (Wal-Mart, Gander Mountain, etc) are slowly getting better but it's still only good if you're willing to use Prv Partisan from Serbia or Magtech from Brazil. It's been a real pain to find some nice inexpensive practice rounds in .38 Special to have a proper familiarization with my new Taurus 650SS, for example.

Also it's still insanely hard to come by some reloading supplies - primers for example - because the nutjobs have started hording those supplies as well.

Paranoia has been good for the manufacturers, there is no doubt there...

William

30 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:00:27pm

re: #26 garhighway

If teabaggers get involved in races money will appear - and with that money advertising will appear. Teabag candidates will take votes from republicans in a way that no uber-lib candidate would from a dem.

31 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:01:22pm

Sorry for the early OT, but FoxNews is reporting that the Holocaust museum shooter James von Brunn has died from complications from his injuries:
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

MSNBC also says von Brunn died:

32 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:01:50pm

re: #27 Olsonist

Dodd retiring in Connecticut is a good thing since the CT AG will run. He's a slam dunk. Lamont will run for Gov. The question now becomes who runs against Lieberman who will probably run as a Rep.

That's not until 2012.

33 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:02:42pm

re: #11 lawhawk

With the contentious and somewhat negative campaigning people get unhappy. The vast majority really don't understand the technicalities but simply shift with the ads.

34 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #33 Olsonist

With the contentious and somewhat negative campaigning people get unhappy. The vast majority really don't understand the technicalities but simply shift with the ads.

Keep the government out of my health care! And don't touch my Medicare!

35 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:04:07pm

re: #11 lawhawk

The problem with those polls is that they only ask if you would vote for or against/approve or disaprove, we need one that asks if they're doing it because they want it to be more conservative or more liberal so we know how many of those people who don't like it are that way because they want Single Payer/A Public Option...

36 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:04:23pm

re: #32 recusancy

Lieberman isn't until 2012, but Dodd's seat and the governorship are this year.

37 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:05:29pm

re: #21 MandyManners

I'm gonna' log off and try again.

Toss your cookies first.

38 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:06:12pm

Catcha later kids.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:06:45pm

re: #37 The Sanity Inspector

Toss your cookies first.

I hadn't thought of that. If only she's getting the message, she might have some malware.

40 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:06:50pm

re: #27 Olsonist

I'm pretty sure that Lieberman doesn't get run against till 2012, I mean wasn't he elected to 6 years in 2006?

41 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #23 Ojoe

An MD friend of mine says the current health care bill will just make the insurance companies richer.

Well, hey! If you could write it into law that people are required to buy your good or service, wouldn't that make you richer?

42 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:07:16pm

re: #36 Olsonist

Lieberman isn't until 2012, but Dodd's seat and the governorship are this year.

That's what I meant.

43 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:08:10pm

re: #27 Olsonist

Dodd retiring in Connecticut is a good thing since the CT AG will run. He's a slam dunk. Lamont will run for Gov. The question now becomes who runs against Lieberman who will probably run as a Rep.

why do you say Joe will run as a Republican? Is it because you want him to?

44 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:08:49pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

I'm pretty sure that Lieberman doesn't get run against till 2012, I mean wasn't he elected to 6 years in 2006?

KONSPIRACEEEEE!

2012. By definition, anything that happens in 2012 is linked to a vast konspiracee run by the cloud elders, the Bilderbergers, and the ancient Mayans, who despite being dead, are still omnipotent. This includes you ordering Chicken McNuggets and the pharmacy running out of Q-tips.

45 Neutral President  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:09:04pm

re: #3 Shiplord Kirel

I'm still seeing a lot of "Out of Stock, Backorder OK" at Midway USA. The prices are asinine too.

46 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:09:17pm

re: #14 Ojoe

I dont vote for parties. I vote for people, and right now, anyone who supports or is supported by the Tea Party is not getting my vote.

47 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:10:05pm

re: #45 ArchangelMichael

I'm still seeing a lot of "Out of Stock, Backorder OK" at Midway USA. The prices are asinine too.

Machetes don't need reloading.

48 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:10:11pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

Yeah, but everyone was thinking Dodd would fight it out and the AG, Richard Blumenthal, would run against Lieberman in 2012. With Dodd dropping out, the AG moves up. The Reps wanted to run against Dodd but not so much against the AG.

49 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:10:46pm

You know what the Tea Party reminds me of? A parasitoid wasp.

To quote TV tropes (the real life, animals high octane fuel page ) you can find it at .... [Link: tvtropes.org...]

Some wasps are even worse. Known as parasitoid wasps, they will find a live caterpillar, temporarily paralyze it, lay eggs inside the body, and allow them to hatch. The larvae will then take control of the caterpillar by devouring unnecessary organs, modifying its glands, and directly manipulating its nervous system. The host is ordered to do nothing but eat and eat until it's ten times the size of a normal caterpillar. After a set amount of time, the larvae mature and then burrow their way out of the still living animal in order to infect new hosts with their own eggs. The caterpillar has been so infected by the wasp's hormones that even as it's dying it's forced to weave the wasps a cocoon and attack any predators who threaten them. If that won't give you cold sweats, nothing will.

The way things are going the Tea Party is going to have infected the GOP till its nothing but a hollow shell of its former self, assuming it hasn't already....

50 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:10:59pm

OT: Mutallab has been indicted on six charges stemming from his Christmas bombing attempt. I'm looking for the indictment online and will post when found.

51 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:11:16pm

re: #44 EmmmieG

KONSPIRACEEE!

2012. By definition, anything that happens in 2012 is linked to a vast konspiracee run by the cloud elders, the Bilderbergers, and the ancient Mayans, who despite being dead, are still omnipotent. This includes you ordering Chicken McNuggets and the pharmacy running out of Q-tips.

Nostradamus predicted you'd say that.

52 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:12:14pm

re: #43 _RememberTonyC

He sure won't be running as a Dem. So he'll either continue as an 'independent' or run as a Rep.

53 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:12:20pm

re: #30 wozzablog

I agree that where the teabaggers appear on the ballot they will draw from Republicans, and they will win a few primaries. But the aggregate effect of this will be what? How many races will they really impact? My answer is "not many", and I think that those on the D side who think that the teabaggers are going to save them from an otherwise painful mid-term are wrong.

I think the midterms will hinge on the same things they usually hinge on: the economy and the war. Absent some other unforeseen event, that is what it will be about. Teabaggers make good copy, but they will not be the hinge upon which these elections pivot.

54 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:12:30pm

re: #51 The Sanity Inspector

Nostradamus predicted you'd say that.

And Col Sanders and the rest of the Pentaverate simply sip their mint julips and nod knowingly as they relax at The Meadows

55 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:13:59pm

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nah, he's tads up. I wonder who replaced him? Maybe Abe Vigoda.

And I think the Gettys prefer basil-gin Martinis.

56 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:15:17pm

re: #43 _RememberTonyC

why do you say Joe will run as a Republican? Is it because you want him to?

It's either that or remain in the formidable "Connecticut for Lieberman" party.

57 Ebetty  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:15:18pm

re: #43 _RememberTonyC

Lieberman isn't up for reelection until 2012.

58 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:15:32pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Nah, he's tads up.

Is he really? Or is that just what he wants you to think? You can't trust the Col, with his wee beedy eyes.

59 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:15:51pm

re: #37 The Sanity Inspector

Toss your cookies first.

I thought "how the hell is puking going to help?"...wait, what?

60 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:16:17pm

Speaking of Von Brunn, just ran across this "Willis Carto" connection on him the other day:

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

61 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:17:02pm

re: #52 Olsonist

He sure won't be running as a Dem. So he'll either continue as an 'independent' or run as a Rep.

I can see him running as an "Independent Democrat," but not as a Republican. I think the country needs more "Independent Democrats" and "Independent Republicans" like Lieberman and the two Senators from Maine.

62 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:17:46pm

re: #57 Ebetty

Lieberman isn't up for reelection until 2012.

I'm aware of that.

63 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:18:14pm

re: #56 recusancy

It's either that or remain in the formidable "Connecticut for Lieberman" party.

that party has never lost an election .... so maybe he'll stick with it

64 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:18:29pm

re: #16 Charles

Must have been some kind of glitch in the data stream. No problems here.

I got it again when I tried to go to the front page.

65 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:18:58pm

re: #53 garhighway

Well the issue isn't just how many races will the Tea Baggers win, how many Republicans will have to skew to the right to placate them? Then how effectively will those Republicans be able to return to center during the general election after the primaries? Yeah everyone does it but the greater the distance the less effective it is.

Though I do agree that the economy will probably be the biggest factor the democrats can win that one through two different possible strategies, either actually fixing things, or being able to effectively press the issue of how the economy imploded under a Republican President, the first would be the better approach, but the second combined with crazyness from the Teabaggers could help staunch democratic losses...

66 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:19:47pm

re: #61 _RememberTonyC

I can see him running as an "Independent Democrat," but not as a Republican. I think the country needs more "Independent Democrats" and "Independent Republicans" like Lieberman and the two Senators from Maine.

The two senators from Maine are hardly independent. I see the Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right that anytime a republican thinks about voting with the Democrats on legislation they've become "independent".

67 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:20:17pm

re: #26 garhighway

There's a long way to go between now and the mid-terms.

My predictions:

Anyone who is going to vote R because of health care reform was going to vote R anyway.

.....

I'm not convinced that is the case. There are a lot of middle of the road voters, people that voted for Obama, who aren't pleased about the health care bill. I think this is shaping up to be a bloodbath regardless.

68 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:20:45pm

re: #63 _RememberTonyC

that party has never lost an election ... so maybe he'll stick with it

I think the unions learned their lesson. Loyalty only goes one way with Lieberman.

69 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:21:14pm

re: #65 jamesfirecat

Politicians of both parties routinely play to the base in the primary and then steer to the center in the general. That is nothing new. Absent some sort of change in the laws of the universe, they will get away with it in 2010 just like they have since forever.

70 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:21:42pm

re: #61 _RememberTonyC

Fine. I think the country needs more Democrats. Lieberman isn't a Democrat. By agreement he caucuses with the Dems but politically he's more in tune with the Reps. A Lamont or Blumenthal would represent the CT constituency better.

71 Ebetty  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:22:49pm

The Tea Party crowd is definitely loud. They are not, however, a "Party." They are not organized in all 50 states so as to be legally recognized entities that have primaries, platform conventions, and a system for nominating candidates for President. Nor are they recognized by the Secretaries of State, or other bodies that regulate campaign finance. To bring down the "Tea Party," all folks need to do is invest time. Look up the individual PACs, 527s, 501(c)4s and the like. File grievances with the FEC and state authorities. Bury them with legal wranglings. It's not enough to discredit them when their so-called leaders carry racist signs, they have to be thrown out of the political system. Mocking them may be necessary too but, to make an impact, I would love to see someone hit their pocketbooks.

They are not a legitimate movement and should not be elevated as such.

72 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:22:53pm

re: #70 Olsonist

That's exactly what happened - and Connecticut voters chose Lieberman over Lamont in the general election.

73 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:22:54pm

re: #66 recusancy

The two senators from Maine are hardly independent. I see the Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right that anytime a republican thinks about voting with the Democrats on legislation they've become "independent".


you sound like more of a partisan that me, so your take on this is different than mine. when a senator is unafraid to buck the party leaders and vote with the other side, I call them "independent minded," which is what I really meant. That is what Collins, Snowe, and Lieberman have done in the past.

74 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:23:37pm

re: #67 RogueOne

We'll see. My read on health care reform is that people liked the general idea but hated the process. They saw the sausage being made and they didn't like it. We'll see how long the unpleasant aftertaste lingers. With attention spans shortening by the minute, I don't see the issue having legs.

75 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:23:54pm

re: #68 recusancy

I think the unions learned their lesson. Loyalty only goes one way with Lieberman.

Lieberman will be close to 70 in 2012 .... maybe he'll call it quits. who knows?

76 Neutral President  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:24:47pm

re: #70 Olsonist

Fine. I think the country needs more Democrats. Lieberman isn't a Democrat. By agreement he caucuses with the Dems but politically he's more in tune with the Reps. A Lamont or Blumenthal would represent the CT constituency better.

He sides with them on 2 things and that makes him "more in tune with the Reps."

OK by that standard I ask... when is McCain or Graham or Snowe switching parties?

77 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:25:00pm

re: #72 lawhawk

No complaints there, and he gets to do it all over in 2012. But he won't be getting any favors from the Dems. Obama won't be campaigning for him and he has to defend his record. Not an easy task.

78 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:25:22pm

re: #72 lawhawk

That's exactly what happened - and Connecticut voters chose Lieberman over Lamont in the general election.

And then Lieberman did the opposite of everything he said he'd do. Fool me twice...

79 Ebetty  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:25:24pm

re: #70 Olsonist

On Domestic issues, Lieberman is a reliable Democrat vote. (see Health Care vote in support, despite his aw shucks talk to the contrary)

On foreign policy, national security he tends to be a reliable vote for the Reps.

No one owns him, which is generally a good thing.

80 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:26:17pm

re: #70 Olsonist

Fine. I think the country needs more Democrats. Lieberman isn't a Democrat. By agreement he caucuses with the Dems but politically he's more in tune with the Reps. A Lamont or Blumenthal would represent the CT constituency better.

Blumenthal will be a good senator. ned lamont is a joke. and I don't think we need more "democrats," we need more mature adults who put general well being of the people before their party loyalties. Kind of like Joe Lieberman has done.

81 Ebetty  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:27:07pm

re: #62 _RememberTonyC

Sorry!

82 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:27:18pm

re: #69 garhighway

Well like I said it's possible that the Tea Party people will force Republicans to say things that things that you really just can't take back, or drop out of the race in favor of a "true believer" who has no intention of backing down on what they've said come the general election.

Or if the Tea Party does actually run people as a third party then there's no doubt that's gonna bleed Republican votes like a hemophilliac, for all we know it could be NY-23 all across America...

83 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:27:34pm

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

Given that Liberman has done things like argue vociferously about measures he supported a few scant years ago, I'm not sure in what manner you see him putting well-being of the people first. I agree he doesn't think party first-- but I think he puts Lieberman first.

84 Four More Tears  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:28:50pm

re: #83 Obdicut

As Colbert said, it's not the Lieberman for Connecticut party.

85 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:29:00pm

Do teabaggers like Robertson want the GOP to fail in a legendary way? I'm beginning to think they do.

86 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:29:02pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Given that Liberman has done things like argue vociferously about measures he supported a few scant years ago, I'm not sure in what manner you see him putting well-being of the people first. I agree he doesn't think party first-- but I think he puts Lieberman first.

we like him here in Connecticut. people from outside the state don't get a vote.

87 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #81 Ebetty

no problem

88 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:30:04pm

time to run ..... later folks!

89 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:30:09pm

re: #23 Ojoe

An MD friend of mine says the current health care bill will just make the insurance companies richer.

You can thank Lieberman for that in getting rid of the public option.

90 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:30:27pm

re: #77 Olsonist

Seeing how he won against Lamont (the winner of the Democrat primary) without Democrat backing, their lack of support, and the lack of Obama backing him is going to keep him from reelection exactly how? If he runs for reelection, he'll probably win again by a comfortable margin (and he could turn and point to his stand on the health care votes to protect the state's biggest employers - the insurance companies - as a sign of doing what's best for the state of CT).

91 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:31:03pm

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

Generally if you address the Republican National Convention people tend to see you as a Republican, certainly not as a Democrat. There's nothing particularly wrong with being a Republican. But don't mind the Democrats if they run a strong candidate against Lieberman.

92 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:31:10pm

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

Ask any Democrat what they think of Joe Lieberman and I bet they spit out has name with a disgusted "Bleh"! Try it when you have a chance.

93 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:31:49pm

re: #86 _RememberTonyC

we like him here in Connecticut. people from outside the state don't get a vote.

Oh, but we do. It's called money.

94 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:31:57pm

re: #14 Ojoe

I have personally decided never to vote for either "D"or "R" for the foreseeable future.

Considering that the two major parties have held the governance of the nation between them for many decades, they are together equally culpable for the state we are now in, and I would give them, considered together, a failing grade.

They are certainly now way beyond cooperating for the common good.

An up-ding for the sentiment, not necessarily the practicality, of your future voting practices. While this Lizard limits himself to as few D's and R's as possible in the voting booth in order to play his role in encouraging 3rd party growth, on certain ballots the big 2 are sometimes the only game in town. The Democrats and Republicans may be bad to the core at times, but IMHO, they're a necessary evil in our political system.

95 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:33:00pm

Which one is "the lesser of two weevils"?.

96 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:34:11pm

At least my dinger still works.

97 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:34:41pm

Tangentially, today is the last day to register to vote in the Feb 2 Illinois primary.

98 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:35:22pm

Suicide bomber kills 5 Russian policemen

A local government spokesman is quoted as saying that the attack took place as the policemen lined up in the yard in the morning, local time, to receive their orders for the day.

The spokesman said it appeared the bomber had been waiting for the gates into the police station to open.

When they did, he drove his car packed with up to 70 kilograms of high explosives into the station.

99 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:35:22pm

re: #86 _RememberTonyC

we like him here in Connecticut. people from outside the state don't get a vote.


Here's how people like him in CT:

By a 51 - 25 percent margin, Connecticut voters say Sen. Joseph Lieberman's views on issues are closer to the Republican Party than to the Democratic Party. There is agreement on this among voters in all parties.

Voters approve 49 - 44 percent of the job Lieberman is doing. He gets 74 - 20 percent approval from Republicans and 52 - 40 percent approval from independent voters, but Democrats disapprove 62 - 31 percent.

100 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:35:25pm

re: #97 Taqyia2Me

Tangentially, today is the last day to register to vote in the Feb 2 Illinois primary.

Bet the graveyards are doing a brisk business.

101 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:35:31pm

re: #86 _RememberTonyC

I don't think you can speak for the entirety of Connecticut on the issue of Lieberman.

102 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:36:01pm

re: #98 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Suicide bomber kills 5 Russian policemen

Dang Dagestani Baptists!

103 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:36:02pm

re: #96 MandyManners

At least my dinger still works.

in bed.

104 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:36:22pm

re: #90 lawhawk

That election was in 2006 well before Lieberman campaigned for McCain and spoke at the RNC. If you recall he won with Republican backing and with Dems not backing Lamont.

It could happen that the Dems don't recruit a strong candidate. Their best candidate just signed up for Dodd's seat. But you shouldn't expect that.

Did I mention that Lieberman actively campaigned against Al Franken? Yep, I think the Dems have it in for old Joe.

105 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:36:54pm

re: #71 Ebetty

The Tea Party crowd is definitely loud. They are not, however, a "Party." They are not organized in all 50 states so as to be legally recognized entities that have primaries, platform conventions, and a system for nominating candidates for President. Nor are they recognized by the Secretaries of State, or other bodies that regulate campaign finance. To bring down the "Tea Party," all folks need to do is invest time. Look up the individual PACs, 527s, 501(c)4s and the like. File grievances with the FEC and state authorities. Bury them with legal wranglings. It's not enough to discredit them when their so-called leaders carry racist signs, they have to be thrown out of the political system. Mocking them may be necessary too but, to make an impact, I would love to see someone hit their pocketbooks.

They are not a legitimate movement and should not be elevated as such.

They don't need any of that bureaucracy and organization. They are borrowing it all from the Republicans for free.

106 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:38:05pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

They don't need any of that bureaucracy and organization. They are borrowing it all from the Republicans for free.

Like a parasitic organism.

107 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:38:34pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Like a parasitic organism.

Bingo.

108 abolitionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:38:46pm

OT - Ibrahim Hooper calls for "more bomb-sniffing dogs", at 05:30 into Video: Bill O'Reilly vs. CAIR Spokesman on Profiling

New grievance theater strategy for the flying imams?

109 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:38:53pm

re: #31 commadore183

Sorry for the early OT, but FoxNews is reporting that the Holocaust museum shooter James von Brunn has died from complications from his injuries:
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

MSNBC also says von Brunn died:
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Too bad he didn't live to be tried and convicted. He would have survived for years on death row.

110 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:39:18pm

re: #41 The Sanity Inspector

Showing how corporations buy the government.

111 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:39:31pm

re: #92 prairiefire

Ask any Democrat what they think of Joe Lieberman and I bet they spit out has name with a disgusted "Bleh"! Try it when you have a chance.

PIMF spit out his name

112 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:40:14pm

re: #109 Alouette

Too bad he didn't live to be tried and convicted. He would have survived for years on death row.

Yes, with the taxpayers paying for his sorry existence.

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:40:34pm

re: #108 abolitionist

OT - Ibrahim Hooper calls for "more bomb-sniffing dogs", at 05:30 into Video: Bill O'Reilly vs. CAIR Spokesman on Profiling

[Video]

New grievance theater strategy for the flying imams?

The Flying Imams sounds like an acrobatic troupe.

114 JamesWI  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:40:55pm

Bets on the first post to claim that picture is photoshopped (again)? I'm putting it at 215

115 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:41:25pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Already way ahead of you, see my post at #49...

116 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:41:44pm

Suspected US drone 'kills 12' in Pakistan

Two suspected US drone missile strikes have killed at least 12 people in a tribal region of north-west Pakistan, Pakistani security officials say.

The missiles targeted a compound described as a Taliban training centre, about 30km west of Miranshah the main town in North Waziristan.

117 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #100 MandyManners

Bet the graveyards are doing a brisk business.

Yep, mom and dad, while resting in peace, are still voting for nothing but democrats. Here's hoping they're still writing in for FDR!

118 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:42:31pm

Given that the crazy wingnuts are convinced that the 'Alinsky method' was actually read and followed by the Democrats, that it worked for them, and that they should now follow it themselves to ensure success, it wouldn't surprise me if they were now finding inspiration in the 'Cloward-Piven strategy' they are always foaming about.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:42:41pm

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Suspected US drone 'kills 12' in Pakistan

"His father is the president of Turkmenistan...or Menturkistan...one of those...anyway, it's a very important stan."

120 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:44:01pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

"His father is the president of Turkmenistan...or Menturkistan...one of those...anyway, it's a very important stan."

Stan Lee?

121 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #82 jamesfirecat

I don't see NY23 writ large in 2010. NY is an oddball place with funny laws and lots of goofy little parties already on the ticket, so going third party is pretty easy there. But I do not believe that such is the case elsewhere. I agree with you that where that happens, it is all upside for the D's. But I think that ends up happening in only a handful of districts.

Third parties are hard. The two big parties have spent the last 150 years making it so.

Instead I see teabaggers simply being a further manifestation of the usual dynamic in the primaries: you cater to the base there and then tack to the center later. It will be fun to see how many of them can win a primary. I haven't seen much evidence of political skill there (I don't consider carrying stupid signs and screaming at speakers in hotel conference rooms to be signs of political skill), so I don't expect much from them. But you never know. In a world where Glenn Beck gets a TV show, anything can happen.

122 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:46:48pm

OT - how low can 'Press TV' - the media wing of the theocratic government of Iran go? Try this:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]


Six months after Neda’s callous murder, this is all Press TV could come up with to refute Neda’s murder at the hands of the Baseej. Pathetic beyond belief and deserves a complaint to the incompetent OFCOM.

123 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:49:20pm

re: #110 Ojoe

Showing how corporations buy the government.

If you're not at the table you're on the menu.

124 Four More Tears  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:49:40pm

OT: A nice recap of Avatar's plot.

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:49:47pm

re: #122 Jimmah

Combining religion and evil is a bad thing.

The Master of Understatement has spoken.

126 abolitionist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:51:02pm

re: #122 Jimmah

OT - how low can 'Press TV' - the media wing of the theocratic government of Iran go? Try this:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

"Alledged death" -- there's a clue.

127 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:51:45pm

re: #121 garhighway

Well I agree with you on one thing, it's clearly too early to determine what exactly the status of our nation will look like during the elections which are over half a year away. That's a lot of time for everyone involved to make (and or loose) ground.

Who knows what exactly Obama will focus on once the great Healthcare debate is over, and how that bill alone will effect the standings of either party.

The only thing I'm willing to venture is that its hard for me to imagine the Tea Party people helping the Republicans win general elections, so it then becomes an issue of will they be just an albatross (as in something that brings them some bad luck) or an actual anchor (as in something that pulls them down into depths from which they are never seen again)_ around the neck of the Republican Party....

128 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:53:49pm

re: #74 garhighway

The process is part of the problem but I think it ties into the underlying "spending" issue that I think is going to dominate this next election cycle. People are going to remember the months and months spent on this while the unemployment rate continued to climb.

129 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:54:20pm

re: #124 JasonA

OT: A nice recap of Avatar's plot.

And I thought it was Dances With Smurfs.

130 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:55:32pm

re: #92 prairiefire

Ask any Democrat what they think of Joe Lieberman and I bet they spit out has name with a disgusted "Bleh"! Try it when you have a chance.

Bleh!

131 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:56:16pm

I feel about upcoming elections like Kissinger felt during the Iran-Iraq war - I'd like to see both sides lose.

Maybe if we just offered a percentage of national tax revenue for the government to just GO AWAY? Just ask them to quit, right up front?

"OK you guys spent ten hojillion dollars last year. Ten hojillion divided by five hundred is 20 kajillion each, so here's the deal... We give you twenty kajillion, minus a couple of bazillion for paperwork fees, to just leave politics forever and go live in your vacation spot of choice for the rest of your natural life. How about it?"

/let's make a deal

132 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:56:25pm

re: #127 jamesfirecat

I agree that the teabaggers will be no help to the GOP. I just think they won't be much of a hindrance, either. They are the flavor of the week. Next week it will be Druids. Or some such thing.

133 John Neverbend  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #108 abolitionist

OT - Ibrahim Hooper calls for "more bomb-sniffing dogs", at 05:30 into Video: Bill O'Reilly vs. CAIR Spokesman on Profiling

Gratuitous comment against Israel from the CAIR stooge. "They have a race-based system to begin with." Mr. Hooper, please go f*** yourself.

134 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:57:51pm

re: #99 recusancy

52 - 40 percent approval from independent voters

a 12 pt lead among independents is a good way to win elections.

135 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:58:01pm

re: #127 jamesfirecat

I'm going to guess that Obama and the Dems will be campaigning on:

• economic recovery √
• health care bill √
• withdrawal from Iraq √?
• closing Guantanamo ?

136 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:59:04pm

The teabagging intelligentsia plans to implement Cloward-Piven :

137 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:59:32pm

re: #132 garhighway

I agree that the teabaggers will be no help to the GOP. I just think they won't be much of a hindrance, either. They are the flavor of the week. Next week it will be Druids. Or some such thing.

Those people have tasted populace power. They aren't going anywhere.

138 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 12:59:35pm

re: #50 lawhawk

This isn't a copy of the indictment, but a press release by the federal prosecutors outlining the charges.

Count one of the indictment charges Abdulmutallab with attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, which carries a penalty of up to life in prison. Count two of the indictment charges him with attempted murder within the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison. Count three of the indictment charges him with willful attempt to destroy or wreck an aircraft within the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison.

Count four of the indictment charges Abdulmutallab with willfully placing a destructive device on an aircraft within the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States, which was likely to endanger the safety of such aircraft. This violation carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison. Count five of the indictment charges him with use of a firearm/destructive device during and in relation to a crime of violence, which carries a consecutive mandatory 30 years in prison. Count six of the indictment charges the defendant with possession of a firearm/destructive device in furtherance of a crime of violence, which carries a consecutive mandatory 30 years in prison

Mutallab will face life in prison under one of the counts; and up to 20 years under three of the charges and up to 30 years under the remaining two.

139 Olsonist  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:01:11pm

re: #136 Jimmah

The teabagging intelligentsia plans to implement Cloward-Piven :


[Video]

When I read about Cloward-Piven, the first person I thought of was Grover Norquist.

140 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:02:28pm

OT:
The new Findlay Brown Album sounds very much like "Singing While Under the Influence of Orbison"

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

141 Mich-again  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:03:44pm

re: #138 lawhawk

Mutallab will face life in prison under one of the counts; and up to 20 years under three of the charges and up to 30 years under the remaining two.

We pretty much knew more charges were coming didn't we. That first indictment with the 20 year maximum sentence was just the appetizer.

142 erraticsphinx  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:03:48pm

re: #136 Jimmah


Teabagging intelligentsia?

Would love to see their brainstorming sessions.

143 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:06:19pm

re: #128 RogueOne

I agree that the process was ugly. But who takes the beating for that? The rules are what they are: you need 60 votes to pass something big in the Senate. BHO didn't make that rule. He learned from the Clintons that you can't ramrod stuff through Congress. You have to let their process work. Otherwise you get nothing. And since the R's shut the door on him, the D's were the only game in town.

And I am not sure how the spending issue cuts: if you say "you were fiddling while jobs burned and I am mad", then what, exactly, would you have had them do instead? Any other significant government action involved more and different spending. Absent a time machine to go back and fix the regulatory environment from 10 years ago, the die was cast. And if a voter thinks that tax cutting (especially Bush-style, high-bracket tax cutting) was the right response, then he is voting R anyway.

If I were a D running for re-election this fall, I would be arguing that the only remedy for an economy badly damaged by the deregulators was stimulus and time. Probably by early fall there will be some signs that things are turning around. If there aren't, then it doesn't matter.

144 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:06:40pm

re: #135 Olsonist

Those four sound about right to me, though last time I checked, (there's probably a few more if I think about it) but "Closing Gitmo" should be a Checkmark followed by a "?" in my opinion just like "leaving Iraq" last time I checked Obama has the Prison all picked out picked out in Illinois, restore life to a dying town with the money having a running prison will generate and help make America look like a nation of laws once again, not a bad "win win" if you want my opinion...

145 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #142 erraticsphinx

Teabagging intelligentsia?

Would love to see their brainstorming sessions.

Speaking relatively of course ;-)

146 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:07:22pm

'Work' beckons - gotta dash

147 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:07:34pm

re: #127 jamesfirecat

Well I agree with you on one thing, it's clearly too early to determine what exactly the status of our nation will look like during the elections which are over half a year away. That's a lot of time for everyone involved to make (and or loose) ground.

Who knows what exactly Obama will focus on once the great Healthcare debate is over, and how that bill alone will effect the standings of either party.

The only thing I'm willing to venture is that its hard for me to imagine the Tea Party people helping the Republicans win general elections, so it then becomes an issue of will they be just an albatross (as in something that brings them some bad luck) or an actual anchor (as in something that pulls them down into depths from which they are never seen again)_ around the neck of the Republican Party...

I'll tell you what Obama will focus on. Employment opportunities, Education, Technology, Green alternatives (energy, etc). All the things he talked about in the campaign. Actually, some of that is going on now.

I think the Republicans are dead set on taking back Congress, but I'm not so sure it will happen. I think the Independents lean left much more than right and even if healthcare reform doesn't make everyone happy (it doesn't look like it is really) I don't think support for Obama has diminished much among his supporters and Independents.

148 John Neverbend  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:10:04pm

re: #136 Jimmah

The teabagging intelligentsia plans to implement Cloward-Piven :

Classic Lionel Jeffries.

149 John Neverbend  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:14:51pm

re: #142 erraticsphinx

Teabagging intelligentsia?

Would love to see their brainstorming sessions.

Here's one such session, complete with Spanish subtitles.

150 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:16:56pm

re: #143 garhighway

I was just mildly agreeing with your statement. I think the whole way this played out, in regards to the health care debate, is just a minor part of the problem.

The bigger problem they have is the spending frenzy on display since the election. The stimulus package was so important that it had to be passed immediately before people even got a chance to read the damn thing and it didn't help. It didn't help becuase it was loaded down with crap that zero to do with stimulating the economy. "Never let a crisis go to waste" is going to haunt them. I've been saying for months the dems are bleeding independents and that equates to a sound beating when it comes to the elections.

151 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:17:26pm

Findlay Brown a couple of years back:

152 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:18:26pm

re: #150 RogueOne

It didn't help because it was loaded down with crap that had zero to do with stimulating the economy.

PIMF, so is paying attention to my spell-check

153 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:19:08pm
154 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:20:58pm

re: #144 jamesfirecat

Except that Congress (with a Democrat majority) provided no money for the Gitmo closure and the earliest that Gitmo will close will be 2011. The ultimate drawdown of troops in Iraq is an open question, and Obama doubled down on Afghanistan by sending a troop surge. Those three items aren't exactly ones that Obama will find favor with among the Left, not when he promised to close Gitmo by the end of 2009.

155 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:21:44pm

The real Frankenstein experiment: One man's mission to create a living mind inside a machine

Professor Markram's 'Blue Brain' project, must rank as one of the most extraordinary endeavours in scientific history.

If this 47-year-old South-African Israeli is successful, then we are on the verge of realising an age-old fantasy, one first imagined when an adolescent Mary Shelley penned Frankenstein, her tale of an artificial monster brought to life - a story written, quite coincidentally, just a few miles from where this extraordinary experiment is now taking place.
Success will bring with it philosophical, moral and ethical conundrums of the highest order, and may force us to confront what it means to be human.

But Professor Markram thinks his artificial mind will render vivisection obsolete, conquer insanity and even improve our intelligence and ability to learn.

156 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:22:55pm

re: #153 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - Baltimore Mayor to Resign in Plea Deal

Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent:

They save time by putting their elected officials in jail as soon as they are elected.

157 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:26:31pm

re: #154 lawhawk

Except that Congress (with a Democrat majority) provided no money for the Gitmo closure and the earliest that Gitmo will close will be 2011. The ultimate drawdown of troops in Iraq is an open question, and Obama doubled down on Afghanistan by sending a troop surge. Those three items aren't exactly ones that Obama will find favor with among the Left, not when he promised to close Gitmo by the end of 2009.

That's Obama's problem, cowtowing to the Right. It's my only criticism of him. Particularly with healthcare. He should have pushed the public option through or leaned on the Dems to do it. Bush didn't court Leftie opinions the way that Obama seems to be courting the Right. It will never work for him. The Right will never respect him.

He's also looked the other way with the Patriot Act. Maybe he feels there's other more important things to get to (and maybe there are), but the Dems are pretty pissed about that one, too.

Obama did the right thing in Afghanistan, but I'm not surprised. He's a smart man which his critics don't see.

158 Gus  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:28:21pm

re: #136 Jimmah

The teabagging intelligentsia plans to implement Cloward-Piven :


[Video]

Teh bearded men look like intellectual longhairs and sneakingly similar to Karl Marx!

/Intelligentsia!

/

159 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:30:16pm

re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The real Frankenstein experiment: One man's mission to create a living mind inside a machine

Great article. I love the Daily Mail!!

This, it is hoped, will bring into being a sentient mind that will be able to think, reason, express will, lay down memories and perhaps even experience love, anger, sadness, pain and joy.

...and take over the world!! MMMMWWWWHHHAAAAAAA

He needs to work with those Japanese folks who made all the cool robots.

160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:30:36pm

re: #153 Mad Al-Jaffee

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

161 Gus  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:31:44pm
162 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:31:59pm

re: #157 marjoriemoon

Is it kowtowing to the right or common sense to not throw out the Patriot Act which by and large has worked to keep us safe after 9/11 and which the Democrats in Congress have had a couple of years to push through changes (particularly to FISA courts and the tribunal system). As the President, he's got an institutional position to not give up power accumulated by prior Administrations. It would make little sense for him to give up that power granted under the Patriot Act simply because the Bush Administration was the one that developed it. The courts haven't found it unconstitutional, so Obama is carrying on with those policies.

Bush didn't court Leftie opinions? Prescription drug law (Medicare Part D) comes to mind as does No Child Left Behind; the latter done with the help of Ted Kennedy.

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:33:02pm

re: #153 Mad Al-Jaffee

Five hundred fucking dollars.

How much does a mayor of a major city make?

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:34:43pm

re: #162 lawhawk

Is it kowtowing to the right or common sense to not throw out the Patriot Act which by and large has worked to keep us safe after 9/11 and which the Democrats in Congress have had a couple of years to push through changes (particularly to FISA courts and the tribunal system). As the President, he's got an institutional position to not give up power accumulated by prior Administrations. It would make little sense for him to give up that power granted under the Patriot Act simply because the Bush Administration was the one that developed it. The courts haven't found it unconstitutional, so Obama is carrying on with those policies.

Bush didn't court Leftie opinions? Prescription drug law (Medicare Part D) comes to mind as does No Child Left Behind; the latter done with the help of Ted Kennedy.

Ted Kennedy may have helped shepherd through NCLB, but there's nothing really "leftie" about it.

165 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:34:48pm

US forges alliance with Saddam Hussein officers to fight al-Qaeda

The two sides were enemies on the battlefield just seven years ago but have been brought together by the failings of Yemen's security and intelligence apparatus, according to diplomatic and military sources in the country.

Although mutual suspicions linger, the collaboration is said to have achieved some intelligence breakthroughs and helped instil greater efficiency and professionalism within the most elite Yemeni counterterrorism outfit.

Co-operation with the former Baathist officers, who fled Iraq in the wake of the US-led invasion and the fall of Saddam, is expected to grow further in the wake of the failed terror attack in the skies above Detroit.

Both Britain and the United States have pledged to bolster Yemeni efforts to take on al-Qaeda's local affiliate, al-Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula (AQAP), since it claimed responsibility for a thwarted attempt to bring down an American airliner on Christmas Day.

The US-Iraqi alliance was born out of frustration over the incompetence and suspected al-Qaeda sympathies of many within Yemen's domestic intelligence body, the Political Security Organisation, or PSO.

166 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:34:48pm

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And it wasn't even petty cash or money for some hokey program. It was for the poor.

167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:36:51pm

re: #166 EmmmieG

I'm trying to look online but can't find an income range for mayors.

168 tradewind  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:38:24pm

Don't worry... The Tingler is on it....

[Link: www.thefoxnation.com...]

169 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:38:46pm

re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm trying to look online but can't find an income range for mayors.

95K.
[Link: baltimore.bizjournals.com...]

170 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:38:53pm

re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm trying to look online but can't find an income range for mayors.

Baltimore was $95k a year

171 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:39:24pm

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

Blumenthal will be a good senator. ned lamont is a joke. and I don't think we need more "democrats," we need more mature adults who put general well being of the people insurance companies that they really represent before their party loyalties. Kind of like Joe Lieberman has done.

Fixed that for ya!

Man I get tired of this fiction that there's only a Dem-Republican axis. The business interests of Joe Lieberman's state (insurance companies) figure far more into his voting records than "the people."

172 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:39:55pm

re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm trying to look online but can't find an income range for mayors.

3 answers in 29 seconds. Geez!!
//

173 tradewind  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:40:21pm

re: #170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Melvis' makes 150k plus benefits.

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:41:00pm

re: #169 Cannadian Club Akbar

I lied. I knew if I said I was looking but couldn't find it that you would do the legwork.
/

175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:41:23pm
176 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:42:20pm

re: #174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I lied. I knew if I said I was looking but couldn't find it that you would do the legwork.
/

I could put the best joke in this space, but I won't.:)

177 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:42:33pm

re: #175 WindUpBird

Inside a machine, you say?

[Video]

Does any machine that plays second fiddle to Hasselhoff deserve to be called intelligent?

178 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:44:21pm

re: #177 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Does any machine that plays second fiddle to Hasselhoff deserve to be called intelligent?

Knightboat?

Homer: Go, Knightboat, go!
Bart: Oh, every week there's a canal.
Lisa: Or an inlet.
Bart: Or a fjord.
Homer: Quiet! I will not hear another word against the boat.

179 tradewind  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:45:59pm

re: #161 Gus 802

There's a ham sandwich joke in there.......

180 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:46:03pm

re: #162 lawhawk

Is it kowtowing to the right or common sense to not throw out the Patriot Act which by and large has worked to keep us safe after 9/11 and which the Democrats in Congress have had a couple of years to push through changes (particularly to FISA courts and the tribunal system). As the President, he's got an institutional position to not give up power accumulated by prior Administrations. It would make little sense for him to give up that power granted under the Patriot Act simply because the Bush Administration was the one that developed it. The courts haven't found it unconstitutional, so Obama is carrying on with those policies.

Bush didn't court Leftie opinions? Prescription drug law (Medicare Part D) comes to mind as does No Child Left Behind; the latter done with the help of Ted Kennedy.

There are serious privacy concerns in the Patriot Act for law abiding citizens. It also can be open to a world of abuse.

I'm disappointed the gap, the donut hole wasn't closed in Medicare Part D. It should be.

It's my understanding that No Child Left Behind ran out of money to fund it. Yes, it is bipartisan, but hard to implement. One criticism of the program, as I recall, is too much emphasis in standardized tests instead of grade averages. In effect, teachers "teach the test" instead of really teaching the children.

181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:46:09pm

Oh! It's snowing!

How droll.

182 garhighway  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:46:55pm

re: #150 RogueOne

If I sound heated, I apologize. I don't mean to. And I agree with you that the D's have not been a model of discipline and self-restraint.

But to my main point: if things get better it won't matter. All will be forgotten/forgiven. And if they don't get better, the D's get spanked for that. It really is all about the economy (absent some game-breaking unforeseen event).

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:47:13pm

re: #180 marjoriemoon

The Department of Educations costs a bajillion dollars to run and doesn't educate a single child.

184 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:47:22pm

Study: US terror suspects mostly young men


A new study on homegrown terror found that most American Muslims who planned violent attacks in since 2001 were young, male U.S. citizens who became radical as part of a group.

Still, researchers seeking lessons on preventing extremism found no definitive pattern of how the suspects turned to violence and no geographic center of radicalization in the U.S.

Experts from Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill tallied homegrown terror cases since the Sept. 11 attacks and found 139 American Muslims had been publicly accused of planning or carrying out violence motivated by extremism.

All but one of the suspects were male and most were under age 30. Most were U.S.-born, naturalized citizens or legal residents of the country. Although Arabs formed the largest group of suspects, the accused were almost evenly divided in terms of ethnicity, including African-Americans, South Asians, Somalis and whites. About a third were converts to Islam.

Funded by the National Institute of Justice, a division of the U.S. Justice Department, researchers sought to learn why American Muslims seem less prone to extremism than Muslims in Western Europe, where radicals preach openly and children and grandchildren of Muslim immigrants often feel as alienated from broader society as their parents did.

The report's authors analyzed public records of terror cases, reviewed efforts by American Muslim leaders to fight extremism, and interviewed more than 120 Muslims in Houston; Seattle; Buffalo, N.Y.; and around Raleigh and Durham in North Carolina. Each of the four areas had some cases of alleged radicalization. U.S. Muslims accused of sending money to overseas terrorist groups were not part of the study.
185 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:47:50pm

re: #181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh! It's snowing!

How droll.

What is this...snow?

186 tradewind  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:48:47pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I wonder how many analysts it took to come up with that one....///

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:50:58pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Kragar? They could've just called me. I'd've told them that.

188 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:51:46pm

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Department of Educations costs a bajillion dollars to run and doesn't educate a single child.

And did not even exist when I was a kid in school.

189 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:51:47pm

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Department of Educations costs a bajillion dollars to run and doesn't educate a single child.

Did you hear about this?

[Link: www.ed.gov...]

Sharpton, Gingrich and Duncan Announce Education Tour

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and civil rights leader Al Sharpton will join Education Secretary Arne Duncan on a tour of four cities to highlight the Obama administration's efforts to reform public education, spur innovation and discuss challenges facing America's school systems.

I mentioned this before, but the three of them were on Meet the Press talking about this new program where schools compete for funds. There's actually better articles than this about it. I haven't figured out if they're talking only about charter schools or public schools also. I just thought the lineup was quite interesting. Strange bedfellows indeed.

190 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #182 garhighway

You didn't. I was a little confused because I was basically agreeing with you, still do.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:53:30pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

Howabout this...?

Take the half a frickin' million dollars that this tour will cost and buy some laptops for low income students.

They can sit in a room in DC and chat with a few locals for the price of a coke.

192 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:54:19pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Study: US terror suspects mostly young men


From the study:

Practices of Muslim-American Communities Prevent
Radicalization.
Our research shows that a variety of
practices of Muslim-American communities may be
helping to prevent and address instances of radicalization.
193 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:55:39pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Still, researchers seeking lessons on preventing extremism found no definitive pattern of how the suspects turned to violence and no geographic center of radicalization in the U.S.

I think the turning comes from a certain book which can be used as a ready made manual for the self amplification of all the worst in human nature.

194 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:56:44pm

re: #193 Ojoe

I think the turning comes from a certain book which can be used as a ready made manual for the self amplification of all the worst in human nature.

The Bible?

195 Kragar  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:57:07pm

re: #193 Ojoe

I think the turning comes from a certain book which can be used as a ready made manual for the self amplification of all the worst in human nature.

Yeah, I thought the Twilight books sucked too.

196 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:57:38pm

re: #194 recusancy

Begins with a K

The Bible has the old testament but it also has the sermon on the mount

197 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:57:44pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

Gingrich and Sharpton started touting this venture some months ago. It is aimed at public schools. Schools will have to meet certain bench marks (to qualify for special fundings), and they all won't just be test scores, which could be doctored easily.

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 1:58:52pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

A local principal got totally busted cheating lately.

199 RogueOne  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:00:37pm

They announced part of the AP NFL awards, anyone know when they're supposed to announce the MVP?

200 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:01:35pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

re: #197 sattv4u2

Gingrich and Sharpton started touting this venture some months ago. It is aimed at public schools. Schools will have to meet certain bench marks (to qualify for special fundings), and they all won't just be test scores, which could be doctored easily.

May 17th to be exact

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

201 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:03:02pm

re: #198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A local principal got totally busted cheating lately.

Shocka

Any bets that his/her review (read ,,, RAISE) was dependent on that schools test scores!?!?

202 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:03:05pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Howabout this...?

Take the half a frickin' million dollars that this tour will cost and buy some laptops for low income students.

They can sit in a room in DC and chat with a few locals for the price of a coke.

hehe I know the Right hates the Dept of Education. I hear that here a lot. I'm not a scholar, but I'm sure I could come up with many benefits. I'll make it my project for 2010, k?

It's not just buying the kids laptops and schoolbooks. It's changing the system. Teachers have a hard time teaching in many schools, primarily because of fear of lawsuits. Class sizes are too large, salaries too small.

203 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:03:50pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

Jerry Falwell and Larry Flint became good friends.

Stranger things have happened.

204 Gus  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:04:10pm

Thought this was interesting.

Iran: Archive photos; 100 Years in 100 Pictures

The flag you see at the end is the Lion and Sun Flag (1925-1979).

205 recusancy  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:04:52pm

re: #202 marjoriemoon

Don't forget that teachers are teh evil Union Thugs™

206 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:05:10pm

re: #197 sattv4u2

Gingrich and Sharpton started touting this venture some months ago. It is aimed at public schools. Schools will have to meet certain bench marks (to qualify for special fundings), and they all won't just be test scores, which could be doctored easily.

Right. It was started last summer.

If you're interested, read the transcript from Meet the Press. I was so blown away at what Sharpton said. It was the first time I agreed with everything he said.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:06:22pm

re: #202 marjoriemoon

Thanks Marje!

208 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:09:15pm

re: #202 marjoriemoon

hehe I know the Right hates the Dept of Education. I hear that here a lot. I'm not a scholar, but I'm sure I could come up with many benefits. I'll make it my project for 2010, k?

It's not just buying the kids laptops and schoolbooks. It's changing the system. 1) Teachers have a hard time teaching in many schools, primarily because of fear of lawsuits. 2) Class sizes are too large, salaries too small.

#1, I agree wholeheartedly, but thats a result of the larger issue in the country. We became "it's someone elses fault, lets sue them" a long time ago.
#2, thats something to be taken care of at the local level. The Fed gov't pours billions into public ed. The locals are the ones who decide how/what/where to spend that money on. ALSO, the majority of local property taxes go specifically for schools, or at leats they are supposed to. An audit would probably show that that money os being diverted or wasted.
And this isn't something new. It's been going on for decades, under both Repub and Dem admins (Fed level, that is)

209 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:09:16pm

re: #202 marjoriemoon

hehe I know the Right hates the Dept of Education. I hear that here a lot. I'm not a scholar, but I'm sure I could come up with many benefits. I'll make it my project for 2010, k?

It's not just buying the kids laptops and schoolbooks. It's changing the system. Teachers have a hard time teaching in many schools, primarily because of fear of lawsuits. Class sizes are too large, salaries too small.

In the Catholic schools here, the teacher salaries are set at 2/3 of the public school salaries; and a class of 30 is normal.

They have no lack of applicants for the teaching positions; and the kids actually learn; classes are ahead of their public school counterparts, and by the 6th or 7th grade, they are a whole YEAR ahead in coursework.

So - I'm sort of thinking the problem is more along the lines of:
1. Lack of discipline in schools (resulting from a fear of lawsuits against school officials when they discipline a kid).
2. Rowdy classes from the lack of discipline.
2. Teachers are afraid in some schools, from the lack of discipline.
3. Parents who don't care as much as they could about the benefits of a good education.

210 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:10:13pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon

Right. It was started last summer.

If you're interested, read the transcript from Meet the Press. I was so blown away at what Sharpton said. It was the first time I agreed with everything he said.

I've seen him on a few shows talking about it. I just sat there with my mouth wide open and eyes unblinking

211 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:11:01pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

I mentioned this before, but the three of them were on Meet the Press talking about this new program where schools compete for funds. There's actually better articles than this about it. I haven't figured out if they're talking only about charter schools or public schools also. I just thought the lineup was quite interesting. Strange bedfellows indeed.

I recall Gingrich wanted to buy every schoolchild in America a laptop back when he was speaker, so its not surprising that he would be involved in an effort like this. Sharpton's role is less explainable; I wasn't aware that he was so interested in education (and we're both native New Yorkers, so I'm pretty familiar with his positions/antics)!

212 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:14:12pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon

Right. It was started last summer.

If you're interested, read the transcript from Meet the Press. I was so blown away at what Sharpton said. It was the first time I agreed with everything he said.

Every time this issue comes up it seems to me to another politically correct pretense, or ignorance.

I have had two kids pass through public schools, and have relatives in the school system. It takes a family (a real one) PLUS the school system to get to where one should be. Essentially all the failures of schools that I see start at home, but seldom does one hear politicians say that schools should be surrogate families.

213 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:14:20pm

re: #200 sattv4u2

re: #197 sattv4u2

May 17th to be exact

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Yeesh, I pushed something and got blasted right off line!

Anyhoo, I'm confused about Brown v. Board of Ed. Here in Miami we don't have all White schools. No, we are integrated (as Miami is very multicultural to begin with), but we DO have all Black schools. Why is that? They are poor schools in poor neighborhoods. F Schools, failing schools, destined to be shut down. Well maybe that's the best thing that can happen. Then the children will be put into better schools. But will they?

Obviously the districts are being drawn on economic lines, but isn't that unconstitutional? Brown v. Board of Ed says it is. And it's not just here that it's happening.

I was bitchin about this at lunch the other day and one of my coworkers said there was no way her daughter was going to be bused to an F school. Ok, then, what about those kids coming to your school? No dice, they don't want them. I'm not so sure that's a racial thing as an economic thing, but I didn't go any farther.

214 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:14:46pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout

Bingo. We send our son to a private school. They take no guff from students nor parents

2 examples
1), My son has only gone there last year (H.S. Freshman) and this year. When we were applying, we met a teacher he had (and we loved) back in 6th grade. She told us the biggest discipline problem she had the entire previous year was that she had to tell the same 5th grader two times in one month to tuck the back of his shirt in
2) Senior class trip to Washington D.C. Class was to spend 5 nights there. On night #2 two of the boys were caught with a beer in their room. They were told to pack, taken to the airport, parents called. Parents were told to give a Credit Card number to the airport tickiet clerk as both boys were being put on the next flight home AND expelled from school ,,, with NO rebate on their tuition

215 joven  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:14:53pm

God what morans these teabaggers be. It is not spelled niggar, but rather n*****. They can't get anything right.

216 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:16:03pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout

In the Catholic schools here, the teacher salaries are set at 2/3 of the public school salaries; and a class of 30 is normal.

They have no lack of applicants for the teaching positions; and the kids actually learn; classes are ahead of their public school counterparts, and by the 6th or 7th grade, they are a whole YEAR ahead in coursework.

So - I'm sort of thinking the problem is more along the lines of:
1. Lack of discipline in schools (resulting from a fear of lawsuits against school officials when they discipline a kid).
2. Rowdy classes from the lack of discipline.
2 3. Teachers are afraid in some schools, from the lack of discipline.
3 4. Parents who don't care as much as they could about the benefits of a good education.

You missed point 5 : lack of a mandate to educate all children. Meaning, they can throw out students who misbehave or don't learn and not worry about the consequences. This isn't a bug of course, it's a feature! (All private schools that don't receive government funding share this advantage, of course.) Were I a parent, Catholic schools would certainly be an attractive option.

217 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:17:56pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout

In the Catholic schools here, the teacher salaries are set at 2/3 of the public school salaries; and a class of 30 is normal.

They have no lack of applicants for the teaching positions; and the kids actually learn; classes are ahead of their public school counterparts, and by the 6th or 7th grade, they are a whole YEAR ahead in coursework.

So - I'm sort of thinking the problem is more along the lines of:
1. Lack of discipline in schools (resulting from a fear of lawsuits against school officials when they discipline a kid).
2. Rowdy classes from the lack of discipline.
2. Teachers are afraid in some schools, from the lack of discipline.
3. Parents who don't care as much as they could about the benefits of a good education.

Yes very true, but the private schools are privately funded so I think money has to be a huge consideration.

218 joven  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:18:08pm

Dear Charles, I noted that my proper spelling of that racist word was starred out. It appears that I have overstepped some line when I was just trying to be sarcastic.

I apologize.

219 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:20:58pm

re: #216 Surabaya Stew

You missed point 5 : lack of a mandate to educate all children

Bingo ,, and it's not always the kids fault, btw. When I was a kid, teens had the option of going to a regular high school OR a vocational ed school. Those kids still had to take English and Math, but instead of French, they took auto repair (engine or body or both). Instead of Art History, they took Heating and A/C. They could get a diploma there and walk into a good paying blue collar job WITH practical knowledge

Where have the Vocational Schools gone !?!?!

220 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:23:13pm

BBIAB

221 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:24:09pm

re: #216 Surabaya Stew

You missed point 5 : lack of a mandate to educate all children. Meaning, they can throw out students who misbehave or don't learn and not worry about the consequences. This isn't a bug of course, it's a feature! (All private schools that don't receive government funding share this advantage, of course.) Were I a parent, Catholic schools would certainly be an attractive option.

It's a huge mistake, IMO to turn our backs on public education. We've done that and look where it gets us. The poor get less educated, crime goes up and general service goes down.

222 What, me worry?  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:24:53pm

re: #219 sattv4u2

You missed point 5 : lack of a mandate to educate all children

Bingo ,, and it's not always the kids fault, btw. When I was a kid, teens had the option of going to a regular high school OR a vocational ed school. Those kids still had to take English and Math, but instead of French, they took auto repair (engine or body or both). Instead of Art History, they took Heating and A/C. They could get a diploma there and walk into a good paying blue collar job WITH practical knowledge

Where have the Vocational Schools gone !?!?!

We have quite a bit here, but they're for after high school, not instead of.

223 JoyousMN  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:26:00pm

re: #218 joven

I thought you typed it that way intentionally, to be funny. As in the proper spelling IS with the asterisks.

224 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:27:14pm

re: #221 marjoriemoon

It's a huge mistake, IMO to turn our backs on public education. We've done that and look where it gets us. The poor get less educated, crime goes up and general service goes down.

Plus the lack of education contributes to a generational cycle of poverty, as well as depriving us of the intellectual contributions that those trapped in it could be making, were they not trapped in a system that affords them fewer educational opportunities than someone lucky enough to be born to wealthier parents.
We all lose.

225 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:31:10pm

re: #221 marjoriemoon

It's a huge mistake, IMO to turn our backs on public education. We've done that and look where it gets us. The poor get less educated, crime goes up and general service goes down.

I agree that public education must not be ignored, but at the same time, it's certainly not the optimal environment for every child. Parents faced with the immediate need to have their children enrolled in schools that aren't fight zones, don't have decayed facilities, and are educationally defunct don't have the luxury of waiting for the public system to improve. The answer to all of this is not easy, but private schools certainly have a role to play in whatever is going to work.

226 JoyousMN  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:31:52pm

re: #224 iceweasel

Agree with both of you. I think public education is one of the most important aspects of our democracy. Making sure that everyone has a basic level of education enriches all of us. hmmm...sounds like the reason behind extending health care too.

227 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:34:37pm

re: #226 JoyousMN

Yes. I hope you and your husband are well, btw.

I have to run -- minor emergency here (nothing to worry about). be well all!

228 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:35:52pm

re: #219 sattv4u2

You missed point 5 : lack of a mandate to educate all children

Bingo ,, and it's not always the kids fault, btw. When I was a kid, teens had the option of going to a regular high school OR a vocational ed school. Those kids still had to take English and Math, but instead of French, they took auto repair (engine or body or both). Instead of Art History, they took Heating and A/C. They could get a diploma there and walk into a good paying blue collar job WITH practical knowledge

Where have the Vocational Schools gone !?!?!

Another good point. While Vocational schools probably aren't appropriate for more than 10% of High Schoolers, no solution to our sorry state of education can afford not to include them. A large Technical Institute is close to my parent's house, and every day hundreds of young men in their 20's are learning the kind of stuff that vocational schools could have taught them in High School.

229 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:39:32pm

re: #226 JoyousMN

Agree with both of you. I think public education is one of the most important aspects of our democracy. Making sure that everyone has a basic level of education enriches all of us. hmmm...sounds like the reason behind extending health care too.

Couldn't agree with you more when it comes to mandating basic (ie: High School) education and universal health care coverage as uniting us as a people and as a democracy. My only point is that neither public or private solutions are cure-all's; what is needed is an appropriate mixture of the 2.

230 JoyousMN  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:41:51pm

re: #229 Surabaya Stew

I have no problem with private and public schools. Just like with health care, those who can afford more can always buy more, but we still need to make sure that everyone can get the basics.

231 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:42:48pm

re: #221 marjoriemoon

It's a huge mistake, IMO to turn our backs on public education. We've done that and look where it gets us. The poor get less educated, crime goes up and general service goes down.

And I would not recommend turning our backs on public education.

But I think there are some features about the public schools that need to change.

Officials must be able to enforce appropriate decorum in the classroom (via penalties, "discipline" if you will) - that is what I see missing from many public schools, and it's why any parent here who can afford it will send their kid to private school. I know of many kids in private school because their grandparents are even helping out. People paying that kind of money have an incentive to see to it their kids get the most possible bang for the buck.

Another is the lack of parental understanding as to what should be happening in school. We have here a test that students must pass, in the 4th grade, I believe, and then in the 7th or 8th grade, to "leap" to the next grade (test is called the LEAP test). It's a test that tests at a basic level, to ensure kids know what they need to know to be able to succeed at the next level.

Every year, we have one parent or another (or several) whose kid did not pass the LEAP test, on TV screaming about the teachers who didn't "pass" the kid on up the line, because the kid had been making "A's" in all the coursework. I have yet to hear a parent upset because the teachers failed to teach what they were supposed to, or that the kid failed to learn. It's all about getting passed on up the line to the next grade.

When the parents don't even understand that the lack of progress in coursework means their kid will fall more and more behind as he/she moves up in school - then how are the kids to understand the importance of paying attention and doing the work?

232 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:49:44pm

re: #230 JoyousMN

I have no problem with private and public schools. Just like with health care, those who can afford more can always buy more, but we still need to make sure that everyone can get the basics.

Agreed. We have to stop looking solely at the left-wing and/or right-wing talking points and recognize that the solutions to improve public education will have to come from all directions. The importance of having citizens with a basic educational grounding seems to be beyond to grasp of many politicians, advocates, and even educators themselves!

233 JoyousMN  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 2:58:46pm

re: #231 reine.de.tout

I'm not sure where "here" is for you. I live in rural MN so choices for school is limited to public or Lutheran private. My hus and I both went to private Catholic schools and neither of us want to send our kids to a religious school. So we work within the public school system. I think you are right that the most important ingredient is parental involvement. But some parents won't/can't so the school has to figure out how to help the kids without the parents support.

234 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jan 6, 2010 7:24:40pm

Just what is the message supposed to be?

"You better support the losing, unelectable position, or else we'll make sure you lose and aren't elected!"

235 meh99  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:02:05am

re: #231 reine.de.tout


Every year, we have one parent or another (or several) whose kid did not pass the LEAP test, on TV screaming about the teachers who didn't "pass" the kid on up the line, because the kid had been making "A's" in all the coursework. I have yet to hear a parent upset because the teachers failed to teach what they were supposed to, or that the kid failed to learn. It's all about getting passed on up the line to the next grade.

Hmm, just like real life. How many think "what would be best for my team" or "what would be best for my company/country" vs. "what will look best on my resume" or "what will get me a raise/promotion/noticed?"

236 korla pundit  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:58:36am

Any kook can "found" a website or buy a domain name. That doesn't make them a leader of a movement. And when populist uprisings do occur like this, without any central structure, there are going to be a large chunk of people who mix themselves in with everybody else.

If people who are outraged at what's happening to the economy, the expanding scope of government involvement in their lives, the threat of socialist federal programs and mandates, etc, etc, they need to install a central organization. When this much anger is out there, and you can't deny a lot of people are spitting with rage, then a lot of opportunists will attempt to harness that anger and redirect it to their own ends.

If there is a firm structure in place for such anger to orbit, the message people want to convey can be more focused, less distracted by side issues, and less prone to provide soapboxes to the fringe elements that otherwise cling like barnacles.

As for this guy's sign, it was a clueless thing to do, and downright self-defeating. But I don't think this sign was about race hatred. It was about taxes. Just a ham-fisted and tone-deaf attempt at an analogy. Heck, John Lennon used the same word (but spelled correctly) to describe how much of the world treats women, and I don't think he was a Klansman.


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