Totten Interviews Hitchens

About 4 years ago me and my brother went to a pro-Denmark rally at the Danish embassy. Hitchens was there, and he was standing a few feet from me when he addressed the crowd. I didn't know who he was then.

Ericus58 Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:09:35pm

Both of these guys are in my top ten of favorite people, a double-bonus interview to read. Looking forward to the second part.

Thanks for making this a topic thread, Charles.

darthstar Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:09:39pm

Just finished reading the interview. Hitchens went in and out of favor with me over the last eight years, but he's back on the favorable side...I only wish we could get that kind of honest opinionating from American pundits and elected officials.

Americans would be far better off if they weren't treated like idiots who can't understand that not everything is black and white, and that there are gray areas...not all Muslims are bad, not all Christians are good. But that logic would also have to be applied to political parties (not all Republicans/Democrats are good/bad)...and heaven forbid if people started thinking like that! The Tea Party and Green Party both would be at a loss. (former Green here, btw)

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:10:17pm

Of consequence is the fact that Ireland did indeed have a blasphemy law on the books against Christianity. It was written into the 1937 Constitution. That ban was butressed by a defamation law passed in 1961. In the process of joining the EU, these laws were rendered unenforcable.

The new law is different because it bans blasphemy against any and all systems of beleif (so don't blaspheme Gaia or Siths or Jedis).

The new law was also conceived and advocated by The Greens in an effort to accomodate Islamist demands for such laws to exist in the west.

[Link: www.michaelnugent.com...]

Locker Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:11:00pm

The same absurdity is present in both cases. These two religions make very large claims for themselves, that "without us you cannot get to heaven, and without us you will go to hell." They claim the right to high, middle, and low justice over everything from public affairs to private morals. They make these immense claims for themselves and further say they should be immune from criticism. It's not enough to be an absolutist party, but you're not allowed to disagree. This is totalitarianism.

Fantastic. Utterly fantastic.

Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:11:58pm

When the attack on the cartoonist story first came out, there were some posters on DU (yeah, I'm gonna mention those assholes, go ahead and downding if you want, I don't care) said that it probably wasn't a Muslim. It was someone pretending to be Muslim to make Muslims look bad. That way we could continue the "war on terror" and have scapegoats and boogeymen.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:12:23pm

I first became aware of Hitchens when I saw him speaking on CSPAN regarding the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. Yeah, I was the kind of 13 year old who watched CSPAN.

iceweasel Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:13:45pm

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

When the attack on the cartoonist story first came out, there were some posters on DU (yeah, I'm gonna mention those assholes, go ahead and downding if you want, I don't care) said that it probably wasn't a Muslim. It was someone pretending to be Muslim to make Muslims look bad. That way we could continue the "war on terror" and have scapegoats and boogeymen.

No one should dispute the claim that DU is filled with assholes. I don't. This is one example of why.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:13:50pm

re: #8 karmic_inquisitor

Of consequence is the fact that Ireland did indeed have a blasphemy law on the books against Christianity. It was written into the 1937 Constitution. That ban was butressed by a defamation law passed in 1961. In the process of joining the EU, these laws were rendered unenforcable.

The new law is different because it bans blasphemy against any and all systems of beleif (so don't blaspheme Gaia or Siths or Jedis).

The new law was also conceived and advocated by The Greens in an effort to accomodate Islamist demands for such laws to exist in the west.

[Link: www.michaelnugent.com...]

Hopefully, the EU Supreme Court will kick this new law, as well.

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:14:03pm

re: #7 darthstar

treated like idiots by who? just curious.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:14:26pm

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

When the attack on the cartoonist story first came out, there were some posters on DU (yeah, I'm gonna mention those assholes, go ahead and downding if you want, I don't care) said that it probably wasn't a Muslim. It was someone pretending to be Muslim to make Muslims look bad. That way we could continue the "war on terror" and have scapegoats and boogeymen.

Not surprising. Pretty normal reaction. I see similar mental gyrations all over the political board.

That is still completely moronic, though.

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:14:37pm

re: #11 Conservative Moonbat

I first became aware of Hitchens when I saw him speaking on CSPAN regarding the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. Yeah, I was the kind of 13 year old who watched CSPAN.

Brian Lamb used to have Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan on from time to time about 10 years ago. I always enjoyed watching them.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:15:53pm

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

When the attack on the cartoonist story first came out, there were some posters on DU (yeah, I'm gonna mention those assholes, go ahead and downding if you want, I don't care) said that it probably wasn't a Muslim. It was someone pretending to be Muslim to make Muslims look bad. That way we could continue the "war on terror" and have scapegoats and boogeymen.

re: #12 iceweasel

No one should dispute the claim that DU is filled with assholes. I don't. This is one example of why.

What iceweasel said. There are a number of left-leaning sites that have worked to clean up their image in recent years, but DU is not one of them. They remain a site for haters and idiotarians and may be mocked at will

Dark_Falcon Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:17:13pm

re: #16 karmic_inquisitor

Brian Lamb used to have Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan on from time to time about 10 years ago. I always enjoyed watching them.

I still enjoy listening to Hitchens. Sullivan is just an asshole now, with very little worth. His anti-Israel rant yesterday was just further proof of that.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:17:28pm

re: #16 karmic_inquisitor

Brian Lamb used to have Hitchens and Andrew Sullivan on from time to time about 10 years ago. I always enjoyed watching them.

It was much longer ago than that. Early 90s at the latest.

iceweasel Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:18:24pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

What iceweasel said. There are a number of left-leaning sites that have worked to clean up their image in recent years, but DU is not one of them. They remain a site for haters and idiotarians and may be mocked at will

Even if they cleaned DU up, the left-wing version of freepers would congregate on some other site. Insanity is bipartisan.

rwdflynavy Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:19:58pm

Good article. I still dislike Hitchens for his hatred of all organized religions (who can honestly hate Mother Theresa?), but agree with him here.

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:20:00pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, the EU Supreme Court will kick this new law, as well.

Well they will probably get the opportunity. As Hitchens said, many plan to violate the law. Someone will get the stick and then file a human rights claim with the EU.

I don't like to be so cynical, but I really am concerned that the law will be viewed as balancing rights between the offensive and the offended and will be upheld.

If it is upheld I'd expect adoption throughout Europe.

When freedom of speech becomes subject to the potentially offended it is no longer a freedom - it becomes a privilege extended by the potentially offended and is extended under shifting and whimsical standards.

Sad episode for Ireland and Europe.

Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:21:53pm

Here's a blog post about the rally my brother and I went to:

[Link: vitalperspective.typepad.com...]

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:22:32pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

I still enjoy listening to Hitchens. Sullivan is just an asshole now, with very little worth. His anti-Israel rant yesterday was just further proof of that.

Hitchens has his own contempt for Israel and does whip out "Plight of the Palestinian People ®" from time to time.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:23:44pm

I agree with this:

I don't like the word radical being used here. I do it myself sometimes, but I'm always trying to stop myself. We say "the radical imam." No, he's not radical. He's the most reactionary bleeder in the region.

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:24:07pm

re: #19 Conservative Moonbat

It was much longer ago than that. Early 90s at the latest.

I am getting old.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:25:09pm

They were in Portland? What were they doing in Portland?

Paying homage at the shrine to literature known as Powells?*

*Two months ago my daughter had tickets to a lecture by Freeman Dyson downtown, to which I drove her like a good mother would. She asked, "What are you going to do while I'm in the lecture?"

"I'm going to hang out at Powell's."

"I hate you."

That's my girl.

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:25:20pm

Gah, what a brilliant man. I love his sentence structure, comments, direct and piercing. I have some disagreements with Mr. Hitchens. I do appreciate his ability to state his opinions so well.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:26:16pm

re: #21 rwdflynavy

Good article. I still dislike Hitchens for his hatred of all organized religions (who can honestly hate Mother Theresa?), but agree with him here.

She was more concerned with saving souls than easing physical suffering. There's no doubt of that. Even as a Unitarian I strongly dislike the idea of "of course I'll feed you because you're starving but would you please consider abandoning the religious tradition under which you were raised and accepting Jesus?"

darthstar Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:27:59pm

re: #14 brookly red

treated like idiots by who? just curious.

By whom? We're being treated like idiots by CNN, Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. Then there are the pundits, personalities and elected reps out there who feign righteous indignation over every little issue: Sarah Palin, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Joe Lieberman, Randi Rhodes, Lindsey Graham, John Boehner, etc. Liberals aren't any better (I consider Randi Rhodes to be as annoying as Limbaugh).

The Sanity Inspector Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:29:02pm

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

When the attack on the cartoonist story first came out, there were some posters on DU (yeah, I'm gonna mention those assholes, go ahead and downding if you want, I don't care) said that it probably wasn't a Muslim. It was someone pretending to be Muslim to make Muslims look bad. That way we could continue the "war on terror" and have scapegoats and boogeymen.

I think people have spoken much rubbish about that event [9/11]. The poor revenging themselves on the rich! It's nothing but an aspect of religious hatred. And that is so hard to deal with, or even contemplate. You can deal with the poor striking out, but you can't deal with the threat of a universal religious war.
-- V. S. Naipaul, interview, The Times, 2002

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:29:13pm

re: #30 darthstar

By whom? We're being treated like idiots by CNN, Fox, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. Then there are the pundits, personalities and elected reps out there who feign righteous indignation over every little issue: Sarah Palin, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Joe Lieberman, Randi Rhodes, Lindsey Graham, John Boehner, etc. Liberals aren't any better (I consider Randi Rhodes to be as annoying as Limbaugh).

Thanks. I hear you.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:30:11pm

If you can give the name Mohammad to a shitting, screaming, nuisance of a kid—which somebody does 5,000 times a day—then I think you should be able to give it to the class's favorite teddy bear.

I love it.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:30:43pm

re: #31 The Sanity Inspector

I think people have spoken much rubbish about that event [9/11]. The poor revenging themselves on the rich! It's nothing but an aspect of religious hatred. And that is so hard to deal with, or even contemplate. You can deal with the poor striking out, but you can't deal with the threat of a universal religious war.
-- V. S. Naipaul, interview, The Times, 2002

Which of the 9/11 attackers were poor? They were all very wealthy, IIRC.

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:32:07pm

re: #34 Alouette

Which of the 9/11 attackers were poor? They were all very wealthy, IIRC.

/but, but, but...

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:32:47pm

I hope he doesn't succumb to the drink like his good friend Kingsley Amis.

Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:33:29pm

re: #31 The Sanity Inspector

I promise I'll try to stop doing this, but here is what was posted on DU:

black flag operation?

Why would people be so angry over a cartoon? Perhaps this is a black flag operation to raise religious and racial tensions against the poor practitioners of Islam? Or maybe they were simply extending an offering of peace with their neighbor by helping chop some firewood? I just find it hard to believe they would be so angry over a cartoon. I'm calling b/s.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:34:56pm

re: #34 Alouette

Which of the 9/11 attackers were poor? They were all very wealthy, IIRC.

Naipaul was attack the "poor revenging" line from another angle. He most likely knew the hijackers were not poor, but the thrust of his argument is at the mentality of those making the claim, not the facts of the claim.

jdog29 Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:35:21pm

Islamaphobia doesn't exist. What an awesome concept. Hitchens nailed it when he declared it is not an irrational fear for me to believe some Muslim is going blow up the airplane.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:35:39pm

re: #33 Conservative Moonbat

I love it.

After that incident, many Muslim moms were writing in to the papers reporting that their children had toys named Mohammed.

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:36:07pm

re: #36 prairiefire

I hope he doesn't succumb to the drink like his good friend Kingsley Amis.

btw there is a drink named prairie fire... shot of tequila, 4-5 drops tabbasco sauce, float a pinch of black pepper on top

darthstar Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:36:23pm

re: #32 brookly red

Thanks. I hear you.

No worries...I just wish I could sit beside some of these people when they're on the set and shout, "Speak to people like they're adults and maybe they'll act like them!" ...that's one of the reasons I really like President Obama...he doesn't talk down to the American people with talk of 'evil doers' and other crap. He acknowledges that there's nuance, and expects people to understand it (which, of course, we can). Granted, the opposition is hell bent on not listening, but those who do listen seem to do just fine.

The whole reason tea partiers exist is because they hear 'death panel', 'gun control', 'abortion' and 'gay education' from the freaks and that's all they think about.

Velvet Elvis Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:36:31pm

re: #37 Mad Al-Jaffee

I promise I'll try to stop doing this, but here is what was posted on DU:

Why does anyone care what people say at DU? That's like getting worked up over what people say at Stormfront. You know they are crazy and are going to say crazy shit so what's the point?

The Sanity Inspector Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:37:06pm

re: #34 Alouette

Which of the 9/11 attackers were poor? They were all very wealthy, IIRC.

None of them were poor. The Left, in their shock, fell back on their rote casting of the situation in class warfare terms. They never could quite wrap their cerebrums around the concept of Jihad. "How can people who are as angry at America as we are want to kill us, too?"

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:37:09pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

After that incident, many Muslim moms were writing in to the papers reporting that their children had toys named Mohammed.

/What! Who taught them to write?

RogueOne Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:37:24pm

OT: We were talking earlier about how the winters in the dakotas suck. Move people.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Frigid weather hits Midwest, -52 wind chill in ND
DES MOINES, Iowa – Snow was piled so high in Iowa that drivers couldn't see across intersections and a North Dakota snowblower repair shop was overwhelmed with business as heavy snow and wind chills as low as 52 below zero blasted much of the Midwest on Thursday.
........
"The air freezes your nostrils, your eyes water and your chest burns from breathing — and that's just going from the house to your vehicle," said Jane Tetrault, the Burke County deputy auditor.

Her vehicle started, but the tires were frozen.

"It was bump, bump, bump all the way to work with the flat spots on my tires," Tetrault said. "It was a pretty rough ride."

The Sanity Inspector Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #37 Mad Al-Jaffee

I promise I'll try to stop doing this, but here is what was posted on DU:

They really need a few more visits from the Clue Fairy over there.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:38:13pm

re: #33 Conservative Moonbat

I love it.

I assume the kids named the bear either for the prophet, someone's admired big brother, or a favorite soccer player.

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:38:14pm

re: #42 darthstar

No worries...I just wish I could sit beside some of these people when they're on the set and shout, "Speak to people like they're adults and maybe they'll act like them!" ...that's one of the reasons I really like President Obama...he doesn't talk down to the American people with talk of 'evil doers' and other crap. He acknowledges that there's nuance, and expects people to understand it (which, of course, we can). Granted, the opposition is hell bent on not listening, but those who do listen seem to do just fine.

The whole reason tea partiers exist is because they hear 'death panel', 'gun control', 'abortion' and 'gay education' from the freaks and that's all they think about.

I thought it was about over taxation.

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:38:33pm

re: #41 brookly red

btw there is a drink named prairie fire... shot of tequila, 4-5 drops tabbasco sauce, float a pinch of black pepper on top

Favorited for future reference.......

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:38:42pm

re: #37 Mad Al-Jaffee

I promise I'll try to stop doing this, but here is what was posted on DU:

Wow.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:39:47pm

re: #39 jdog29

Islamaphobia doesn't exist. What an awesome concept. Hitchens nailed it when he declared it is not an irrational fear for me to believe some Muslim is going blow up the airplane.

I would say that there is a difference between what I would define as bigotry and paranoia about all of Islam, and a rational fear that Islamic terrorism might kill you.

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:40:27pm

re: #50 prairiefire

Favorited for future reference...

nice w/clams :)

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:40:36pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

There you go, talking like a grown-up.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:40:49pm

re: #45 brookly red

/What! Who taught them to write?

And did they get permission to write to the newspaper from their husbands? Fathers? Every blood male relative, just in case?

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:42:05pm

re: #44 The Sanity Inspector

None of them were poor. The Left, in their shock, fell back on their rote casting of the situation in class warfare terms.

Class and race. It was almost instantaneous, and is now deeply rooted by constant repetition.

Ojoe Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:42:25pm

From the interview:

Hitchens: Here's a way of throwing an Oregon progressive into a state of confusion: ask him or her if they've read the latest Al Qaeda pronouncements on the Hindu question. Or, shall we put it another way, a billion infidels, brown-skinned, third world, living in a secular democracy, and all of them deemed by fatwa as fit only for slaughter.

This war is far, far from over.

karmic_inquisitor Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:42:33pm

Best line in the interview, IMO -

"What some call our racism or cultural ignorance is, in fact, present in the Western attempt to embrace them."

Amen

;)

jdog29 Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:42:35pm

Hitchens: "Islamophobia is vague and linguistically clumsy. A phobia is an irrational fear. My fear of Islamic terrorism is not irrational. It's quite well-founded."

Fearing a distinct possibility isn't a phobia. How refreshing

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #45 brookly red

/What! Who taught them to write?

Oh, hardy har har.

I met with a very pious Muslim lady lawyer yesterday. Her son is getting a B in English, and we're deeply worried about his future.

Killgore Trout Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:43:23pm

re: #27 EmmmieG

They were in Portland? What were they doing in Portland?

Totten lives here. Hitch was probably just visiting.

jdog29 Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:43:29pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I would say that there is a difference between what I would define as bigotry and paranoia about all of Islam, and a rational fear that Islamic terrorism might kill you.

see my #59 as I thought I might have overgeneralized the quote.

iceweasel Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:43:49pm

re: #43 Conservative Moonbat

Why does anyone care what people say at DU? That's like getting worked up over what people say at Stormfront. You know they are crazy and are going to say crazy shit so what's the point?

Well, I don't mind pointing at and mocking comments there. I kind of enjoy it, actually. Fortunately the people with ideas like the one posted aren't anywhere near the machinery of power in the Democratic Party currently, whereas people with nutty ideas are taking over the GOP to such an extent that even McCain is throwing out stuff now to pander to them (witness the post upstairs).

Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:45:15pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Totten lives here. Hitch was probably just visiting.

I guess I thought of Totten as belonging to journalism, rather than any one city. Thanks for the info, although it's not like I'm downtown all that much.

Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #43 Conservative Moonbat

Why does anyone care what people say at DU? That's like getting worked up over what people say at Stormfront. You know they are crazy and are going to say crazy shit so what's the point?

I just find it amusing (and kind of scary.)

brookly red Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a gf from Iran who speaks 6 languages... I was just being snarky.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #66 brookly red

I have a gf from Iran who speaks 6 languages... I was just being snarky.

Nah, got that. Hence my not going off on a solemn rant about stereotyping!

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:51:15pm

re: #66 brookly red

Do you know if she thinks that Persian women are the most beautiful in the world? I have heard that from several Iranians I have known. I've been keeping tally through the years and I think that it might be adding up to be true.
Multi-cultural American women are in the lead.

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:52:16pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, hardy har har.

I met with a very pious Muslim lady lawyer yesterday. Her son is getting a B in English, and we're deeply worried about his future.

Ahhh, cute. I can relate to her.

prairiefire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 12:53:27pm

Back to Hitchens. I am going to order the book "On Drinking" he co-wrote with Amis. I figure it's a treasure trove of info.

Gus Thu, Jan 7, 2010 1:55:12pm

Excellent interview or more to the point excellent observations from Christopher Hitchens once again. This is something to read once and then over and over again. Hitchens is brilliance personified and I would categorize him as one of the 5 top intellectuals in the world today.

Claire Thu, Jan 7, 2010 2:50:44pm

re: #21 rwdflynavy

(who can honestly hate Mother Theresa?),

I don't hate anybody but I come pretty damn close with her. She would withhold aspirin to cancer patients because suffering brings them closer to God. It was good for them. Don't even get me started on this.......

Jolo5309 Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:21:46pm

re: #2 lawhawk

Hitchens favourite drink is Johnnie Walker Black, so they got him that.

re: #21 rwdflynavy

Mother Theresa worshipped the cult of death.

Spare O'Lake Thu, Jan 7, 2010 8:18:06pm

Hitchens: …of Orthodox Christians. But I don't think we should try to relativize this too much. If you're going to be killed by a religious fanatic, at least for the rest of our lives, it will be by a Muslim.

Those who blithely equate the Christian right with the Islamofascists should keep this in mind.

Timmeh Fri, Jan 8, 2010 12:48:33am

re: #2 lawhawk

Only Johnnie Walker Black? I would have given a kidney to drink with those two - and a bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue. Great stuff.

Is Johnnie Walker good whiskey?
I suppose I'll have to try it.

mili Fri, Jan 8, 2010 7:23:41am

re: #73 Jolo5309

Hitchens favourite drink is Johnnie Walker Black, so they got him that.

re: #21 rwdflynavy

Mother Theresa worshipped the cult of death.

The cult of a painful death.

SaintGeorgeGentile Fri, Jan 8, 2010 11:07:42am

Here's link to BookTV's excellent in-depth interview. I believe it's from 2007
[Link: www.booktv.org...]

Jolo5309 Fri, Jan 8, 2010 4:07:07pm

re: #75 Timmeh

I bought a 750 ml of it today, just cause...

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