Feelin’ the Love from Danish Kounterjihad Kultur Warriors

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A few days ago a writer for the Danish weekly Weekendavisen, Jesper Vind Jensen, emailed and asked for my opinion on a Danish critic of Islam named Lars Hedegaard who’s apparently now in the midst of a controversy, over statements he made calling for a sort of paramilitary strategy of civil disobedience against Muslims in Denmark.

Jensen wrote that he had seen an image of Lars Hedegaard in a photoshop at some website that was attacking me for something, and thought I must have written something about Hedegaard that prompted it. But the name didn’t mean much to me; I searched LGF and didn’t find any posts mentioning Hedegaard, and I didn’t recall writing anything about him.

Then Jensen emailed this link to a speech in Hedegaard’s own words: The Resilience of the Commoners - Sappho.

3. We need to develop a strategy that may allow us to achieve our objectives. This means that we must develop a comprehensive and deep strategy equal to that of islam. This strategy must take into account that some of our public and private institutions may opt to side with our enemies unless we force them to side with us.

A successful defensive strategy may necessitate the creation of parallel institutions under our control accompanied by civil disobedience vis-à-vis the official, dhimmified ones – which is a classical occurrence in occupied countries.

We would undoubtedly benefit from a study of the modus operandi of primarily European resistance movements during World War 2 though our present situation is much more ominous at least long term.

Jensen also told me that Lars Hedegaard had attended the meeting in Brussels in 2007 partly sponsored by the Belgian extremist party Vlaams Belang; and so I gave him a quote through email that said:

OK, now I remember Hedegaard. He’s obviously an extremist, and anyone who consults with the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belang should not be trusted. And talking about a “public uprising” is insane. He is associating with fascists and advocating violence, and should be shunned by decent people.

Here’s the Danish-language article Jensen and his partner Klaus Wivel wrote for Weekendavisen, in PDF form: De er alle blevet kukkuk.

Apparently this has stirred up yet another enclave of blogs that despise me, over in Denmark. I knew I felt my ears burning. LGF reader Øyvind Strømmen emailed a few links that I put through the Google translator.

For example, Character-suicide of open carpet. And get a load of the name on this blog: MonoKultur. Of course, they believe this is a war, so anything is justified.

Some of those sites are harping (again) about a photograph of Filip DeWinter of the Vlaams Belang and Markus Beisicht of Pro Koln; here are the LGF posts on this photo, because as usual these bloggers are deliberately distorting the truth:

Classic Misdirection from Spencer and Geller
How Do You Say ‘Liar’ in German?

UPDATE at 1/10/10 3:30:19 pm:

Øyvind Strømmen has written a lengthy rebuttal of the claims going around right wing blogs supporting Hedegaard; here’s the Google translation to English from Norwegian: “No fascists to see” - comment on a Danish blog war.

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738 comments

1 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:06:26pm

Was he the roundabout dog guy? I can't remember

2 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:19:06pm

lügner

3 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:21:03pm

Nope that was Lars Vilks. Here's a translated wiki on Hedegaard:

[Link: da.wikipedia.org...]

4 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:23:36pm

re: ...a study of the modus operandi of primarily European resistance movements during World War 2 ...

My mother, a Dane was in country for the occupation & I still have family there today. Some are political and some are not, but I do know that Danes do not use the word resistance casually.

5 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:23:57pm

From what I'm seeing this is the same Gates of Vienna / IFPS crapshack nexus of bloggers and soft hate pundits that we've been warring with since 2007. Sad that Pipes is in bed with this guy, or he was back in 2002.

6 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:24:37pm

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.


(I know Danish people and Dutch people are two different groups but I couldn't help myself)

7 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:24:49pm

re: #3 Thanos

its amazing how the whole nine-eleven/international war on islam thing has broken the brains of so many old-school liberals. Or maybe creepy.

8 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:25:04pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

(I know Danish people and Dutch people are two different groups but I couldn't help myself)

Sort of a racist remark.

9 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:25:18pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

"The Dutch are scum!"

10 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:25:37pm

I hate Dutch Nazis.

11 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:25:48pm

re: #8 Walter L. Newton

I'm pretty sure he's making a pop-culture reference >>

12 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:26:18pm

re: #11 windsagio

I'm pretty sure he's making a pop-culture reference >>

To what? Honest question.

13 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:26:18pm

re: #8 Walter L. Newton

Sort of a racist remark.

Have you not seen the third Austin Power's movie?

14 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:26:56pm

I think the Freikorps concept has been tried before, and it didn't go well.
Hedegaard: don't quack like a duck and complain when people cry fowl.

15 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:27:11pm

re: #12 Walter L. Newton

re: #13 jamesfirecat

I was thinking of a Metalocalypse reference. Skwissgar goes on and on about hating "the Dutch" meaning the Danish.

16 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:27:22pm

re: #12 Walter L. Newton

To what? Honest question.

Its from the third Austin Powers Movie Goldmember. and its said by Austin's father Nigel Powers.

Sorry thought it was mainstream enough that I didn't need to point it out...

17 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:27:22pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

Have you not seen the third Austin Power's movie?

No, haven't seen any of them. I just looked up the quote. I didn't know it was a quote. Sorry.

18 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:28:08pm

Some Google Translated quotes from Hedegaard:

"The modern Islamism, like almost all Danish imams advocates calling itself a religion, but is first and foremost a political ideology in line with communism and Nazism." [5]

"»De voldtager deres egne børn. Det hører man hele tiden. Piger i muslimske familier bliver voldtaget af deres onkler, deres fætre eller deres far«. [6] ""

They rape their own children. It hears all the time. Girls in Muslim families are raped by their uncles, their cousins or their father. "[6]

»Kvinder har ingen værdi. 'Women have no value. De er ikke mennesker. They are not humans. Deres funktion er som livmoder - de bærer krigernes afkom og skaber nye krigere, men ellers... Their function is as the uterus - they bear the offspring of war and create new fighters, but otherwise ... Nuvel, de kan bruges til seksuelle formål, men ellers har de ingen værdi« (om kvindesynet i islam). [7] Well, they can be used for sexual purposes, but otherwise they have no value '(about women surveyed in Islam). [7]

19 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:28:27pm
20 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:29:13pm

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

Its okay there are several quotes from Blazing Saddles that I really wouldn't want people to think were my own thoughts I just figured the inherently hypocritical and humerus nature of this one would shine through on its own even to people who hadn't seen the movie...

21 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:29:23pm

re: #18 Thanos

I love how that kind throws out 'like Communism and Nazism" as if they're even remotely related >>

22 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:30:48pm

Øyvind Strømmen has written an interesting rebuttal of the claims going around right wing blogs supporting Hedegaard; here's the Google translation to English from Norwegian: "No fascists to see" - comment on a Danish blog war.

23 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:30:54pm

re: #18 Thanos

Some Google Translated quotes from Hedegaard:

That's the problem with these sort of people, he makes valid points in those quotes, but at the same time, he advocates similar behavior in taking his problems with Islam to an extreme hatred.

24 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:31:41pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

what valid points does he make in those quotes?

25 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:33:36pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

That's the problem with these sort of people, he makes valid points in those quotes, but at the same time, he advocates similar behavior in taking his problems with Islam to an extreme hatred.

What? Islam isn't a religion or that all women in Islam get raped by their families? What do you think is valid in that?

26 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:34:53pm

re: #24 windsagio

what valid points does he make in those quotes?

The radical element of Islam does treat the who theology as a political theocracy, they do abuse woman, especially young ones (see: Mohammed) and the most radical do treat woman like cattle, actually cattle fair better. And a lot of this instruction is in the Koran.

27 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:36:38pm

re: #25 McSpiff

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

Yes, apparently thats shat he means.

28 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:36:46pm

re: #24 windsagio

what valid points does he make in those quotes?

There is a lot of "child marriage" in some backward Islamic locations, the practices of Vari and Vani (trading girl children to smooth over an obligation or settle a dispute) can be read about almost any given week in the Pakistani papers. You don't see it in the cities, but you do see it in the tribal regions.

29 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:37:41pm

Anyone else think Summer is doing those translations? This, " eternal shame and disgrace in oblivion's grave", has rotating potential.

30 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:37:57pm

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

The radical element of Islam does treat the who theology as a political theocracy, they do abuse woman, especially young ones (see: Mohammed) and the most radical do treat woman like cattle, actually cattle fair better. And a lot of this instruction is in the Koran.

Where they go astray is with the attempt to paint "all" that way. It's always been their intent.

31 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:38:43pm

re: #25 McSpiff

What? Islam isn't a religion or that all women in Islam get raped by their families? What do you think is valid in that?

First off, where in his quotes does he say "all woman?" And no, I don't consider radical Islam to be anything but a political movement masquerading as a religion.

The radical element of Islam does treat the who theology as a political theocracy, they do abuse woman, especially young ones (see: Mohammed) and the most radical do treat woman like cattle, actually cattle fair better. And a lot of this instruction is in the Koran.

And then, as we all know, there are Muslims who wouldn't ever think of doing things like mentioned above. But the comments were not made from thin air, there is fact behind those comments.

32 ryannon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:39:15pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

(I know Danish people and Dutch people are two different groups but I couldn't help myself)

They gave us Audrey Hepburn and Anne Frank.

As a whole, not the most dedicated resistants, but I personally know that some of them did everything they could. I would not cast either the first or the last stone.

33 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:39:35pm

re: #28 Thanos

That has very little to do with Islam, or the theology of radical Islam.

And I think you guys (well Walter) have the politics/theology thing backwards. The radical elements are more like the Christian groups that want to bring on the Rapture, and use politics as a tool, than... well than Like Henry VIII, who used 'theology' for politics.

34 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:40:39pm

re: #30 Thanos

Where they go astray is with the attempt to paint "all" that way. It's always been their intent.

I will ask you the same question, where in his quotes does he say "all woman?" where does he say "all" at all, I don't see the comments as stating that this is all inclusive.

Now, he may think that, and considering that he seems to lean toward those who would like to see Islam just go by-by, he may feel that way.

But the comments themselves, the comments you posted, do not seem to be all inclusive in themselves.

35 Øyvind Strømmen  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:41:59pm

re: #22 Charles

Øyvind Strømmen has written an interesting rebuttal of the claims going around right wing blogs supporting Hedegaard; here's the Google translation to English from Norwegian: "No fascists to see" - comment on a Danish blog war.

Thanks for the link. I should have probably prepared an English translation, too, because machine translations are not exactly precise. However, I am currently busy working on translating a long article I've written on the BNP, and I have to do some paid work, too, sometimes. In other words, I probably won't get around to it.

If anyone needs something short translated from Danish, though, do let me know ;)

36 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:42:15pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Why are you spending so much energy defending a simply awful human being? Even if you take out all, his statements are unacceptable and prejudiced (what is the -ism that applies to religions?)

37 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:42:17pm

re: #16 jamesfirecat

Its from the third Austin Powers Movie Goldmember. and its said by Austin's father Nigel Powers.

Sorry thought it was mainstream enough that I didn't need to point it out...

re: #32 ryannon

Firecat--Need to repeat that it was a joke, maybe every 10 comments.

38 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:42:39pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

If theres one thing i can't abide - it's an ethnocentric racist.......

39 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:43:12pm

re: #29 Decatur Deb

ever played the 'translate back and forth' game? it used to be great with the last generation of online translation software >>

40 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:43:32pm

re: #33 windsagio

That has very little to do with Islam, or the theology of radical Islam.

And I think you guys (well Walter) have the politics/theology thing backwards. The radical elements are more like the Christian groups that want to bring on the Rapture, and use politics as a tool, than... well than Like Henry VIII, who used 'theology' for politics.

No, it's not backwards and 1400 years of history, of the radical side of Islam, is all the proof most people would need to understand that Islam can be used to advance a political ideology. And unfortunately, the Koran more times then less, embraces that political ideology.

The bottom line is how people use the religion and the theology and the politics. Some use it for good, and in the case of radical Islam, then have used it to the detriment of humankind.

41 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:43:36pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

First off, where in his quotes does he say "all woman?" And no, I don't consider radical Islam to be anything but a political movement masquerading as a religion.

The radical element of Islam does treat the who theology as a political theocracy, they do abuse woman, especially young ones (see: Mohammed) and the most radical do treat woman like cattle, actually cattle fair better. And a lot of this instruction is in the Koran.

And then, as we all know, there are Muslims who wouldn't ever think of doing things like mentioned above. But the comments were not made from thin air, there is fact behind those comments.

The word he uses is modern Islam, not radical. Nowhere in his quotes does he state anything other than 'Islam'. The only rational way to interrupt that is to assume he's referring to all of Islam. You and him are talking about the Pakistani equivalent of hill-billies. Certainly not the majority of muslims. A majority of muslims are asian and live in cities.

42 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:43:46pm

re: #33 windsagio

That has very little to do with Islam, or the theology of radical Islam.

And I think you guys (well Walter) have the politics/theology thing backwards. The radical elements are more like the Christian groups that want to bring on the Rapture, and use politics as a tool, than... well than Like Henry VIII, who used 'theology' for politics.

It's tolerated by an Islamic government, hence it has a lot to do with radical islam's influence.
Can women drive in Saudi Arabia?

Your point about the rapture is well made, most of the Eurofascists are reactionary right and fundamentalist Catholic of SSPX stripe or they are strict Calvinist sorts who want to see the "Clash of Civilizations" .
One of the driving forces behind this in the US is a foreign lobbyist for all intents and purposes who is Melkite Catholic and fronts for Serbia.

43 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:45:27pm

re: #39 windsagio

ever played the 'translate back and forth' game? it used to be great with the last generation of online translation software >>

Used to use an old Italian translator--did what an Italian friend called "Desperanto".

44 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:45:57pm

re: #30 Thanos

Where they go astray is with the attempt to paint "all" that way. It's always been their intent.

Denmark is a small country with a population less than NYC & rightly or wrongly many of the locals feel that they have been targeted as an easy take over because of there small size. The long standing tradition of Danish tolerance may be on the way out & if that happens it will spread south. Denmark is a place to watch.

45 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:46:29pm

re: #36 windsagio

Why are you spending so much energy defending a simply awful human being? Even if you take out all, his statements are unacceptable and prejudiced (what is the -ism that applies to religions?)

I'm not defending this man at all. I'm defending the quotes. The man is everything Charles and these other people have indicated, an extremist who is no better than a Nazi.

But I am not going to diminish historical and cultural facts just because they are mouthed by a jerk.

46 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:47:01pm

eurofascists = islamofascists = trash

47 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:47:07pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

You know and I know from long experience fighting these bastards that they don't say "all" that would be hate speech in Europe. Their intent is to imply it. I hope you are not trying to defend those statements Walter.

48 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:47:27pm

re: #42 Thanos

My point is that many non-islamic groups and tribes have similar laws (or even more advanced places: Is it still legal to Marry at 13 in Tennessee?)

As to the other thing, I agree that women are treated badly in Arabic culture. To sound a bit prejudiced myself, I always thought the real tragedy of Islam (as compared to other Revealed Religions) is how totally it acclimated to the vices and social flaws of its home. The attitude, especially in the old days, was more that you agreed with the creed, and less your particular social institutions.

49 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:47:51pm

re: #41 McSpiff

The word he uses is modern Islam, not radical. Nowhere in his quotes does he state anything other than 'Islam'. The only rational way to interrupt that is to assume he's referring to all of Islam. You and him are talking about the Pakistani equivalent of hill-billies. Certainly not the majority of muslims. A majority of muslims are asian and live in cities.

If he is referring to all Islam, then of course I don't agree, and everyone here know that.

50 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:48:20pm

re: #37 Decatur Deb

Yeah, guess it's true what they say about Poe's Law

Once again I was quoting Austin Powers....

51 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:48:52pm

re: #41 McSpiff

Freaking good catch!

So yeah, if we replace the 'radical' with 'modern', are these quotes still defensible?

52 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:48:56pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

If he is referring to all Islam, then of course I don't agree, and everyone here know that.

Do you see any qualifier on Islam on any of those quotes? Other than 'modern'? Which arguably makes the entire thing worse?

53 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:49:53pm

re: #47 Thanos

You know and I know from long experience fighting these bastards that they don't say "all" that would be hate speech in Europe. Their intent is to imply it. I hope you are not trying to defend those statements Walter.

If he means "all" then no, I am not defending them, not if he means those things all inclusively. When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all.

54 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:50:08pm

re: #38 wozzablog

If theres one thing i can't abide - it's an ethnocentric racist...

Just to be clear I was quoting the third Austin Power's movie... it's suppose to be funny because of obvious inherent Hypocrisy.....

55 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:50:35pm

re: #51 windsagio

Freaking good catch!

So yeah, if we replace the 'radical' with 'modern', are these quotes still defensible?

If he see all Islam like this, then those remarks are wrong. As I just posted... "When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all."

56 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:51:24pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

He didn't specify did he? He didn't say "radical islam", he didn't say "backwards tribes in the hinterlands of Pakistan". He's talking about mostly moderate Muslims in Europe.

57 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:51:34pm

re: #54 jamesfirecat

and i was quoting a kinky friedman song ;-)

58 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:51:41pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

To be frank, I think that you were letting the line blur a bit. Its a common problem I guess tho', so much of the angst and problems come from people in the west automatically jumping to 'radical islam' from any mention (and the other way around, which I'm sure happens too).

59 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:52:30pm

Here's another hint Walter: IFPS is one of the sponsoring orgs for the Shrieking Harpie's and Spencers "Free Speech" tours with Geert Wilders.

60 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:53:12pm

re: #57 wozzablog

and i was quoting a kinky friedman song ;-)

Ahh sorry, I'm just a little paranoid about it because evidently those movies aren't as well known as I thought they were.

Little disconcerting, but makes me glad we weren't talking about the IRA and I decided to trot out a certain quote from Blazing Saddles....

61 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:53:41pm

re: #56 Thanos

He didn't specify did he? He didn't say "radical islam", he didn't say "backwards tribes in the hinterlands of Pakistan". He's talking about mostly moderate Muslims in Europe.

Now, how many times do I have to post this... "When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all."

How much clearer do I have to make it to you? Are we having some problem understanding my correcting myself? Are are we having fun just beating me up. Unlike some people, I have no problem admitting when I have misread something, misstated something or simply was wrong.

So, how much more verbage do you want?

62 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:53:57pm

re: #60 jamesfirecat

I think you should be able to freely quote Blazing Saddles no matter what.

63 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:54:36pm

re: #59 Thanos

Here's another hint Walter: IFPS is one of the sponsoring orgs for the Shrieking Harpie's and Spencers "Free Speech" tours with Geert Wilders.

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

Again.

64 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:54:37pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

If he means "all" then no, I am not defending them, not if he means those things all inclusively. When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all.

Assuming that all criticism of Islam is actually directed only at radical Islam seems awfully naive to me. Sometimes people mean exactly what they say.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:55:13pm

re: #64 McSpiff

Assuming that all criticism of Islam is actually directed only at radical Islam seems awfully naive to me. Sometimes people mean exactly what they say.

Now, how many times do I have to post this... "When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all."

How much clearer do I have to make it to you? Are we having some problem understanding my correcting myself? Are are we having fun just beating me up. Unlike some people, I have no problem admitting when I have misread something, misstated something or simply was wrong.

So, how much more verbage do you want?

Having fun?

66 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:55:20pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

... and if you were Muslim and living in Europe would you "automatically understand" that?

67 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:55:25pm

re: #60 jamesfirecat

I once won a competition on the radio using a quote from blazing saddles - it was primetime radio and most of the quote couldn't be aired - but i still won

*proud*

68 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:55:52pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

I said it above too, but I think the problem is with that jump you're making. Its bad mojo... Its simply a bad habit to be in.

69 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:56:12pm

re: #67 wozzablog

And what prize did you won?

70 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:56:14pm

re: #67 wozzablog

what quote? Enquiring minds wanna know!

71 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:57:04pm

re: #67 wozzablog

Did you declare your prize to the IRS?

72 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:57:25pm

re: #66 Thanos

... and if you were Muslim and living in Europe would you "automatically understand" that?

Ok... you are getting old and smelly now. I said I misunderstood what this man was saying, how he was saying it and what he was REALLY saying. I said was wrong. Not, "but I was wrong," just wrong.

Now your just trying to bait me. Go for it.

73 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:57:45pm

Speaking as a european - when Radical Islam is brought up in discourse it (however it is couched) - it is usually used by someone with a dogwhistle clamped to their lips.

74 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:57:59pm

re: #68 windsagio

I said it above too, but I think the problem is with that jump you're making. Its bad mojo... Its simply a bad habit to be in.

And I think I said I was wrong in my assumption, right...?

75 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:58:04pm

Another hint is that the IFPS blogroll pretty much matches up with the Eurofascist nexus of blogrolls. BJ, GoV, etc.

76 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:58:25pm

re: #73 wozzablog

Where are you? I'm in Portugal.

77 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:58:43pm

re: #75 Thanos

Another hint is that the IFPS blogroll pretty much matches up with the Eurofascist nexus of blogrolls. BJ, GoV, etc.

Well, that's nice to know. Thanks for the information. I don't hang around in those cesspools.

78 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:59:08pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Now, how many times do I have to post this... "When I hear statements like that, I automatically understand that this is part of radical Islam, not all Islam. I didn't realize he was meaning all."

How much clearer do I have to make it to you? Are we having some problem understanding my correcting myself? Are are we having fun just beating me up. Unlike some people, I have no problem admitting when I have misread something, misstated something or simply was wrong.

So, how much more verbage do you want?

Having fun?

I'll be honest, I find it a stretch to think that you just automatically added "Radical" in front of everyone of those quotes. I also seriously question what people were thinking when they updinged you. I wonder if they all simply misread those quotes the exact same way? Or if they actually were in support of those quotes?

79 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:59:35pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

What I'm saying is (to depersonalize it from you) that that assumption is really prevalent and worthy of discussion on its own merits.


And, no it wasn't really clear that you were rejecting the assumption in general. Its perfectly clear now tho'

80 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:01:03pm

re: #78 McSpiff

I have the spy thing running in another window, and I wonder what all those updingers will do when they get to the retraction >>


But yes, I think you're right, they totally are. Theres alot of reflexive hate against Islam on here still. People automatically generalize the 'worst' to the general, just like those quotes.

81 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:01:04pm

re: #69 marsl

re: #70 windsagio

Notionally i won a mug, but it never arrived *crying*

It was a movie review show and the topic of religious Methodism came up - given that it's a fallow field and they didnt there would be many entries they had a competition for the best "use of methodism in a movie"............ and well.....


Hedley Lamarr: I want you to round up every vicious criminal and gunslinger in the west. Take this down.

[Taggart looks for a pen and paper while Hedley talks]

Hedley Lamarr: I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.

82 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:01:11pm

re: #66 Thanos

... and if you were Muslim and living in Europe would you "automatically understand" that?

assuming that one will also be judged by the actions of their peers is kinda universal don't you think?

83 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:01:25pm

re: #76 marsl

England.

84 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:01:33pm

re: #78 McSpiff

I updinged him because there are some partial truths in there. Remember: For ugly agitprop to resonate and travel it has to be coated with some truth. Otherwise nobody swallows it.

85 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:02:00pm

re: #78 McSpiff

I'll be honest, I find it a stretch to think that you just automatically added "Radical" in front of everyone of those quotes. I also seriously question what people were thinking when they updinged you. I wonder if they all simply misread those quotes the exact same way? Or if they actually were in support of those quotes?

Well, then you speak to those people who up dinged me, I didn't even look at the dings, I don't even have a clue as to how many dings I have, don't have, get, don't get or even how many comments I have posted.

I explained what I meant, I explained that I was wrong.

Now, you take the argument to those people... that would be the adult thing to do... wouldn't it?

86 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:02:26pm

re: #83 wozzablog

Lots of snow in England. All Europe is freezing.

87 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:02:34pm

re: #82 brookly red

assuming that one will also be judged by the actions of their peers is kinda universal don't you think?

Most muslims wouldn't consider the radical element their peers anymore than the Christians on this site consider abortion clinic bombers their peers.

88 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:04:22pm

re: #82 brookly red

assuming that one will also be judged by the actions of their peers is kinda universal don't you think?

No - not really.

89 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:04:25pm

re: #87 McSpiff

Most muslims wouldn't consider the radical element their peers anymore than the Christians on this site consider abortion clinic bombers their peers.

no but they do understand that they will be seen by others as their peers, no?

90 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:04:34pm

re: #84 Thanos

I updinged him because there are some partial truths in there. Remember: For ugly agitprop to resonate and travel it has to be coated with some truth. Otherwise nobody swallows it.

You mean like "The sun rises in the east... kill all martians?"

91 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:05:25pm

re: #86 marsl

*sigh*

Perishing cold by London standards - snow is only just melting.

But, i'm much more fond of coldwinters than hot summers - so i don't complain.

92 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:05:26pm

re: #89 brookly red

I'd certainly hope not! Again, I don't want Clinic Bombers or Tim McVeigh seen as my peers!

93 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:06:24pm

re: #88 Thanos

No - not really.

no? one _____ does x so all ______do x isn't human nature?

94 Van Helsing  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:07:44pm

re: #80 windsagio

But yes, I think you're right, they totally are. Theres alot of reflexive hate against Islam on here still. People automatically generalize the 'worst' to the general, just like those quotes.

Could have something to do with the expansion of Islam from the Arabian peninsula to a large part of Europe from the early 8th through the late 17th century.

I don't believe it was joyfully embraced by many of the inhabitants of those parts of Europe that became part of the Caliphate.

95 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:08:18pm

re: #92 windsagio

I'd certainly hope not! Again, I don't want Clinic Bombers or Tim McVeigh seen as my peers!

well some people do see it that way, and if you say you haven't experienced that, well I would ask you to reconsider.

96 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:08:48pm

re: #93 brookly red

re: #95 brookly red

you're implying htat its an acceptable comparison to make, or should be expected. People tend to do it, but its wrong. (extra emphasis added for clarity)

97 marsl  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:09:13pm

re: #91 wozzablog

I like winter... but it's too much cold. I'm freezing.

98 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:09:21pm

re: #93 brookly red

Only if we choose it to be.

Broad brushes are the enemy*.


* Insert all obligatory exclusions and caveats and over unders as to "real enemys"

99 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #93 brookly red

Well some people find their "identity" by their group, it's an inborn human trait that comes from our social evolution. Some people get beyond that. Usually it's due to the same mediator regions of our brain that overcome xenophobia through reason coupled with other moral centers of our brain. Some people never get beyond it and actually do judge individuals by the actions of others in their group. I've always found that foreign and strange.

100 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:10:45pm

re: #97 marsl

It's been sub zero Centegrade most nights here. Barely above freezing most days recently - but worse in scotland. much worse in scotland.

101 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:11:02pm

re: #96 windsagio

re: #95 brookly red

you're implying htat its an acceptable comparison to make, or should be expected. People tend to do it, but its wrong. (extra emphasis added for clarity)

acceptable no, expected yes... as you said "people tend to do it" so by tend to I assume you also expect it, no?

102 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:11:19pm

re: #94 Van Helsing

Oh please. If you live in Romania, or Hungary, you might have a point. Of course that's not where this hate comes from.

This is still about 9/11 or for some old-timers the Iranian Revolution, and the intense propaganda we've been subjected to since.

103 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:11:43pm

re: #98 wozzablog

snip

Broad brushes are the enemy*.

snip

I get your pointillism.

104 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:11:57pm

The Sappho link is busted.

105 gegenkritik  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:12:13pm

Just for the record: Of course it wasn't Charles who altered the photo of Beisicht and DeWinter (like those blogs claim). It was first posted at this site, a local Antifa-Blog (couldn't find it anymore there with a quick search, though, but if anyone likes to search via webarchive, it's easy to prove).

106 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:13:04pm

re: #101 brookly red

Gah. People tend to do it in a general way. For instance, Oregonians expect Washingtonians to hog the fast lane. That is a FAR cry from it being 'expected' for people to judge some random muslim to be the same as Osama bin Laden.

107 Van Helsing  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:14:13pm

re: #102 windsagio

WWI? The Turks? Spain until the 1400's?

108 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:15:07pm
We need to develop a strategy that may allow us to achieve our objectives. This means that we must develop a comprehensive and deep strategy equal to that of islam. This strategy must take into account that some of our public and private institutions may opt to side with our enemies unless we force them to side with us.

Sounds like a tea partier talking about Alinsky... it also sounds very very paranoid.

109 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:15:27pm

re: #106 windsagio

Gah. People tend to do it in a general way. For instance, Oregonians expect Washingtonians to hog the fast lane. That is a FAR cry from it being 'expected' for people to judge some random muslim to be the same as Osama bin Laden.

It's honestly got to be a shitty way to live. Assuming that perfectly normal members of your community are secretly plotting to kill you.

110 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:16:04pm

re: #107 Van Helsing

WW1? You think World war 1 was about culture war with Islam?

If we're playing that crazy game, what about the British and French supporting the Ottoman Empire against Russia in the 19th century? Do they just love that Islam?

111 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:16:31pm

re: #107 Van Helsing

I'll remind you that WWI was started by the Pan Serbians (aka "Black Hand) who were mostly fascists, and mostly Orthodox, not Islamic.

112 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:17:43pm

re: #107 Van Helsing

WWI? The Turks? Spain until the 1400's?

That doesn't make any sense?

113 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:17:54pm

re: #106 windsagio

Gah. People tend to do it in a general way. For instance, Oregonians expect Washingtonians to hog the fast lane. That is a FAR cry from it being 'expected' for people to judge some random muslim to be the same as Osama bin Laden.

exactly, so there is no islamaphobia, people don't generalize that much so I must be based on something deeper and more substantial, no?

114 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:18:07pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

OK. Right.

Broad brushes are by and large the enemy, but not always and with some exceptions...........

115 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:18:47pm

re: #107 Van Helsing

WWI? The Turks? Spain until the 1400's?

Are we seriously going back to the 1400's? Can the British and French hate on the Italians for that whole Roman conquest thing?

I'm not even going to waste my breath on the WWI claim.

116 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:19:03pm

re: #113 brookly red

IT HAPPENS BUT PEOPLE SHOULDN'T ACCEPT IT!

Its wrong, and largely driven by (in Europe, often fascist) political or social forces.

117 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:19:29pm

re: #114 wozzablog

OK. Right.

Broad brushes are by and large the enemy, but not always and with some exceptions...

When would painting with a broad brush be practical? All in all the term itself brings with it a negative concept... how could it ever be good?

118 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:19:58pm

re: #114 wozzablog

OK. Right.

Broad brushes are by and large the enemy, but not always and with some exceptions...

for walls I prefer rollers myself...

119 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:20:21pm

re: #116 windsagio

sorry for the gratuitous caps, I felt I wasn't getting through ;)

120 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:21:30pm

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

When painting ceilings, except those of certain chapels.

121 gegenkritik  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:21:32pm

re: #105 gegenkritik
Found it: The first appearence of the altered image of Beisicht and DeWinter's handshake in front of a photoshopped Antifa-crowd (scroll down), dating back to summer 2008, nearly one year before Charles posted the image on LGF. This should prove he hasn't altered the image.

122 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:22:47pm

re: #116 windsagio

IT HAPPENS BUT PEOPLE SHOULDN'T ACCEPT IT!

Its wrong, and largely driven by (in Europe, often fascist) political or social forces.

I never said it was right I said that it is, & then it should be expected.

123 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:23:23pm

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

Debbie picked me up on saying

"broad brushes are the enemy."

That being a broadbrush statement itself i felt i should expand via the pedantic medium.

124 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:23:54pm

re: #111 Thanos

I'll remind you that WWI was started by the Pan Serbians (aka "Black Hand) who were mostly fascists, and mostly Orthodox, not Islamic.

I'll also remind you that Srdj Trifkovic and Robert Spencer are both associated with... Serbian Orthodox/Nationalist causes, and they are the two most responsible for pimping anti Islam swill books in the US.

I'll also remind you that the Serbian Orthodox lobby considers itself "the fifth most influential " foreign lobby in the US.

125 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:24:16pm

re: #121 gegenkritik

Won't convince many. Some of those people believe in alien lizardoid time travelers.

126 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:24:24pm

OT GB and Ariz TIED at 38 9:12 left in game

127 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:24:38pm

re: #122 brookly red

hows this; I don't think it happens that much.

I bet if we took an informal poll of the people taking part in this thread most of them wouldn't claim to make htat generalization.

That leaves 3 possible solutions.
1) We're all liars and really do.
2) We're better than all the rest of the people in the world.
3) Its not as overwhelmingly common as you're claiming.

128 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:25:13pm

re: #123 wozzablog

Debbie picked me up on saying

"broad brushes are the enemy."

That being a broadbrush statement itself i felt i should expand via the pedantic medium.

We are a little overtight tonight. I was just reaching for a cheap art pun.

129 cliffster  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:25:29pm

I guess this guy didn't get the memo put out by Michael Vick.
Justice for dog's dragging death

130 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:25:56pm

re: #126 Stanley Sea

Thanks. Just flipped to it.

131 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:26:15pm

re: #123 wozzablog

Debbie picked me up on saying

"broad brushes are the enemy."

That being a broadbrush statement itself i felt i should expand via the pedantic medium.

/not to worry take raise your broad brush & be humbled by my Sears spray gun! (made in the USA btw)

132 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:26:57pm

re: #128 Decatur Deb


:-)

Sorry, long day already.

Knew it was some form of pun..........

133 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:27:11pm

re: #130 wozzablog

sigh, some of us don't have TV at all >

134 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:28:10pm

re: #127 windsagio

hows this; I don't think it happens that much.

I bet if we took an informal poll of the people taking part in this thread most of them wouldn't claim to make htat generalization.

That leaves 3 possible solutions.
1) We're all liars and really do.
2) We're better than all the rest of the people in the world.
3) Its not as overwhelmingly common as you're claiming.

4) People make assumptions & always will.

135 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:28:43pm

re: #130 wozzablog

Are you an Ex-Pat or Brit? Just curious.

136 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:29:07pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Are you an Ex-Pat or Brit? Just curious.

He just curious.

137 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:29:12pm

re: #133 windsagio

Hmmm.

There are ways of watching online..........and for free.

138 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:29:43pm

re: #133 windsagio

sigh, some of us don't have TV at all >

and are all the better for it!

139 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:29:44pm

re: #134 brookly red

you're really sticking with that? "People make wrong assumptions (SOMETIMES) and we should just all expect them to be evil retards about that?


I'm sorry, but if thats your position we're at an impasse. Its simply indefensible.

140 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:30:00pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Born and bred Londonner/Scots/English hybrid

141 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:30:01pm

re: #138 brookly red

lol usually anyways :)

142 Van Helsing  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:31:08pm

re: #115 McSpiff

Are we seriously going back to the 1400's? Can the British and French hate on the Italians for that whole Roman conquest thing?

I'm not even going to waste my breath on the WWI claim.

OK, OK. Bullshit on my part.
Mea Culpa, mea culpa...

143 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:31:38pm

re: #139 windsagio

you're really sticking with that? "People make wrong assumptions (SOMETIMES) and we should just all expect them to be evil retards about that?

I'm sorry, but if thats your position we're at an impasse. Its simply indefensible.

what is to defend? people make assumptions, dogs sniff butts & that is the way it is...

144 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:32:39pm

re: #138 brookly red

and are all the better for it!

No wait... stop... get a TV... the last season of LOST begins Feb 2nd 2010... it's an important event... even the White House promised not to have the State of the Union address on that night.

145 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:33:47pm

re: #143 brookly red

hah lets stop talking about it, we deeply disagree and neither of us is going to budge :p

146 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:34:16pm

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

No wait... stop... get a TV... the last season of LOST begins Feb 2nd 2010... it's an important event... even the White House promised not to have the State of the Union address on that night.

/they also promised to televise health care debates & your check is in the mail.

147 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:35:51pm

re: #145 windsagio

as you like it

148 Ojoe  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:35:52pm
149 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:36:39pm

re: #146 brookly red

You didn't miss much........

150 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:36:39pm

GB and AZ game is just awesome!

151 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:36:45pm

re: #146 brookly red

I honestly don't know, but weren't some of the debates on CSPAN? I remember turning to it, getting angry then turning away.

Of course, CSPAN kinda doesn't count, I admit :)

152 gegenkritik  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:37:09pm

re: #125 Decatur Deb
Maybe.
Though, one other hint for them: The altered image which Charles at LGF posted still has the German name the Antifa-Blog gave it: "anti-islam-kongress-stoppen" (stop anti-Islam congress).

And again, just for the record: Charles found this pic via Google and took it from the German fascist-Weblog "Patriotisches Forum Süddeutschland" (which is now offline, the people behind it are now engaged in "Gesamtrechts", kind of website for German's Nazi-party DVU).
Those guys took the image from the Antifa-site I've linked to in my post above, to mock about the Antifa-guys and their photoshopping.

153 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:40:07pm

re: #152 gegenkritik

Have you written the Euro edition of "Field Guide to the Nut Groups?

154 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:40:32pm

re: #151 windsagio

I honestly don't know, but weren't some of the debates on CSPAN? I remember turning to it, getting angry then turning away.

Of course, CSPAN kinda doesn't count, I admit :)

C-who?

155 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:40:59pm

re: #146 brookly red

You really didn't miss much.......


156 gegenkritik  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:41:06pm

re: #153 Decatur Deb
Kind of, yes.

157 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:41:57pm

re: #154 brookly red

brilliant! :D

158 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:42:00pm

re: #154 brookly red

C-who?

It's a security camera they put in to keep congressmen from stealing the stationery.

159 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:42:58pm

re: #153 Decatur Deb

Have you written the Euro edition of "Field Guide to the Nut Groups?

/Are you with the people's popular resistance, or the popular people's resistance, or just another commie?

160 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:43:56pm

GB a point from levelling it up again...........

161 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:44:21pm

re: #159 brookly red

I'm with the E over I resistance.

162 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:44:23pm

amazing football game

163 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:44:28pm

What a game.

164 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:44:37pm

re: #158 Decatur Deb

It's a security camera they put in to keep congressmen from stealing the stationery.

maybe they should point it at the treasury...

165 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:45:12pm

re: #148 Ojoe

I hope it goes as red as it did last night!
Always a pleasure to see your towercam post!

166 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:45:19pm

re: #162 BigPapa

amazing football game

I like Arena Football

167 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:47:25pm

re: #161 Decatur Deb

I'm with the E over I resistance.

but that's just a theory?

168 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:48:34pm

re: #167 brookly red

but that's just a theory?

Ohmy, you're right.

169 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:50:17pm

Charles, your 1st link is broken - there's an extra " rel=" at the end.
The Resilience of the Commoners - Sappho.

170 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:50:40pm

re: #150 BigPapa

GB and AZ game is just awesome!


Team with the ball last wins?

171 John Neverbend  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:51:19pm

OT. I just spent 40 minutes or so listening to this shamefully arranged "debate" between PZ Myers and Geoffrey Simmons of the Discovery Institute. It took place 2 years ago on a Minnesota-based Christian radio station, KKMS, and the discussion is interrupted by various radio adverts.

PZ Myers destroys a DI "senior fellow"

The level of ignorance displayed by Simmons is nothing short of staggering. It was almost as bad as Dawkins' debate with Wendy Whatshername. If you don't want to spend 40-50 minutes, here's something that approximates to the discussion, and it's much shorter.

172 Øyvind Strømmen  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:51:49pm

re: #18 Thanos

Actually, that first quote - which also spurred some debate here - reads:

Den moderne islamisme, som næsten alle danske imamer går ind for, kalder sig en religion, men er først og fremmest en politisk ideologi på linje med kommunismen og nazismen.

Translation:

Modern islamism, supported by almost every Danish imam, call itself a religion, but is first and foremost a political ideology like Communist and Nazism.

The "supported by almost every Danish imam"-part is doubtful, although Saudi oil money certainly do find their way around. The claim that Islamism is more politics than religion is - however - quite correct. Islamism is a rather modern, political phenomenon; although certainly not without roots in the religion, like Irshad Manji points out. Some of Sayyid Qutb's works remind me of both fascist, Marxist and anarchist texts.

The other two quotes are as bad as they sound, and one of them comes from an interview where Hedegaard said, amongst other things:

Integration is not working simply because it's absolutely forbidden to integrate. We in the West have a hard hours understanding a culture that does not change, that has an essence, that has remained the same for 1400 years...

[...]

Our leaders do not take this seriously and I am afraid that it will take a public uprising before they will take this seriously. [...] After the occupation of Denmark, there were quite a few who had collaborated with the enemy who came into very hot water. The same thing could happen here ... This can not be solved with a compromise, it's either our civilization or their non-Civilization and Barbarism. Our two ways of life are like Fire and Water. One of them must be victorious.

No mention of Islamism there; it's all Islam and all Muslims he's talking about.

173 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:52:22pm

OMFG - missed a chip shot

174 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:53:35pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Ohmy, you're right.

Cato missed his que...

175 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:54:06pm

Placekicker has to be just about the worst job in professional sports.

176 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:54:51pm

re: #172 oslogin

I'd wager Islamism is a redundency produced by translation - i'd reckon he means *Islam(fullstop)*.

177 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:55:35pm

re: #175 Mich-again

Placekicker has to be just about the worst job in professional sports.

Hero or goat. He should have made that dang kick.

178 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:55:36pm

re: #174 brookly red

Cato missed his que...

I think he's still sleeping with the scorpions.

179 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:56:01pm

re: #176 wozzablog

I'd wager Islamism is a redundency produced by translation - i'd reckon he means *Islam(fullstop)*.

? I thought he was talkin bout Muslims...?

180 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:56:16pm

re: #175 Mich-again

Bad kick.

181 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:56:47pm

re: #178 Decatur Deb

I think he's still sleeping with the scorpions.

should have made a deal wit Vinny....

182 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 4:59:38pm

re: #179 brookly red

Just being pedantic about the word "Islamism" in the translation being a redundency - it's Islam, we don't say "christianityism".

183 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:00:39pm

re: #181 brookly red

He only helps with acquatic animals...........

184 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:00:41pm

re: #182 wozzablog

Well in fairness I've heard both "Christianist" and "Islamist". But I think they're kinda describing a fake state >

185 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:01:24pm

re: #177 Stanley Sea

Hero or goat. He should have made that dang kick.


Of course he should have. They should make every one. But his defense just bailed him out bigtime! Cards win.

186 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:02:41pm

re: #183 wozzablog

He only helps with acquatic animals...

no the Vagas action is good too...

187 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:03:09pm

re: #184 windsagio

I've never heard "Christianist" - but "Islamist" is an old one.

188 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:04:04pm

Wow. what an exciting football game. Hats off to GB for coming back and AZ to close it out.

189 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:04:38pm

re: #187 wozzablog

well islamism is the state of being an islamist... or is it the reverse?


~~
Also. What a disgraceful last few plays. I hate comedies of errors>

190 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:05:42pm

re: #187 wozzablog

I've never heard "Christianist" - but "Islamist" is an old one.

I've only heard "Christianist" here, without a specific definition. The drift seems to be a separation of religious abusives from the Christian mainstream.

191 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:06:25pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

its funny because its kind of the reverse with 'islamist', which is used to associate the abusives with the mainstream >>

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:06:34pm

re: #28 Thanos

There is a lot of "child marriage" in some backward Islamic locations, the practices of Vari and Vani (trading girl children to smooth over an obligation or settle a dispute) can be read about almost any given week in the Pakistani papers. You don't see it in the cities, but you do see it in the tribal regions.

Children are beaten for being witches in some backwards Christian locations, but that doesn't add up to a justification for general attacks on Christianity.

193 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:07:12pm

re: #174 brookly red

Cato missed his que...

OMG did I say Cato! I meant Ojoe... my sincerest apologizes for any unintentional harm I may have caused....

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:07:57pm

re: #38 wozzablog

If theres one thing i can't abide - it's an ethnocentric racist...

And you take back that thing you said 'bout Aristitle Onassis!

195 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:08:11pm

re: #189 windsagio

I would think the former - but it still seems like excessive verbage.

196 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:08:30pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

ding ding ding

197 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:08:50pm

re: #191 windsagio

*further thought*

Its actually a good trick. People have learned (see this thread) that they get in trouble if they try to accuse Islam of being evil directly. But they sure can go after those damnable islamists!!!

198 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:08:56pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Children are beaten for being witches in some backwards Christian locations, but that doesn't add up to a justification for general attacks on Christianity.

That seems true, however this phenomenon happens not because of the Christianity but despite it. It does seem a part of Islam in those regions.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:10:45pm

re: #82 brookly red

assuming that one will also be judged by the actions of their peers is kinda universal don't you think?

No. Not if your 'peers' are all the other members of a very large international religion.

200 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:10:58pm

re: #197 windsagio

*further thought*

Its actually a good trick. People have learned (see this thread) that they get in trouble if they try to accuse Islam of being evil directly. But they sure can go after those damnable islamists!!!

I never used the term "islamist." And on another note, I have no problem with going after radical Islam.

201 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:11:07pm

re: #198 BigPapa

That seems true, however this phenomenon happens not because of the Christianity but despite it. It does seem a part of Islam in those regions.

and a beating is getting off lightly...

202 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:11:24pm

re: #198 BigPapa

wait what? They're being beaten as witches despite Christianity?

/Christians love Witches?!

203 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:11:30pm

re: #198 BigPapa

Christianity is what it's followers choose to make of it.

Creating exceptionalism is a very dangerous game as there are always examples of ones own side having done the same.

204 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:11:38pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

You just associate all Islam with Radical Islam >>

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:12:24pm

re: #94 Van Helsing

Could have something to do with the expansion of Islam from the Arabian peninsula to a large part of Europe from the early 8th through the late 17th century.

I don't believe it was joyfully embraced by many of the inhabitants of those parts of Europe that became part of the Caliphate.

If I made a similar comment about people in areas that were invaded and controlled by Europe in the 18th-20th century havin' issues with Christianity, I wonder how far I'd get around here.

206 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:12:28pm

re: #193 brookly red

OMG did I say Cato! I meant Ojoe... my sincerest apologizes for any unintentional harm I may have caused...

They are easily confused. One wants to restore the Roman Republic, the other wants to replace the Republicans.

207 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:13:00pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

No. Not if your 'peers' are all the other members of a very large international religion.

Past 100 comments... I invoke the statute of limitations.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:13:25pm

re: #107 Van Helsing

WWI? The Turks? Spain until the 1400's?

Algeria? Egypt? All of India?

209 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:13:28pm

re: #201 brookly red

Thats taking what happens to those children exceedingly lightly.

210 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:14:45pm

re: #209 wozzablog

Thats taking what happens to those children exceedingly lightly.

yes, in both cases for sure.

211 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:15:09pm

re: #204 windsagio

You just associate all Islam with Radical Islam >>

Ok... what would be the term I should use that would satisfy you when I want to mention or reference the individuals who belong to the religion know as Islam, but who have decided to co-opt the religion to use for political purposes?

212 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:01pm

re: #202 windsagio

wait what? They're being beaten as witches despite Christianity?

/Christians love Witches?!

Let's slow it down. The point was made that there is trading of young girls in Islamic regions.

The point was made that beating also happen in Africa, in Christian believing areas, with witchcraft being the crime.

My point was that the difference is that Islam in those regions has always been the religion: in Africa, Christianity was brought forth through colonialism yet some tribal beliefs still are prevalent, especially about witchcraft, which is not only believed in Christianity.

My point: not a good comparison.

213 McSpiff  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:06pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Ok... what would be the term I should use that would satisfy you when I want to mention or reference the individuals who belong to the religion know as Islam, but who have decided to co-opt the religion to use for political purposes?

Well, the general term used when the religion in question is christianity seems to be 'Republican'...

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:13pm

re: #159 brookly red

/Are you with the people's popular resistance, or the popular people's resistance, or just another commie?

There's a scene in "The Loves of Faustyna" when the young woman realizes that her boyfriend is a government agent. (Poland, 1970s) She works it out when he refers to himself as a 'rightist reactionary', and is confused when she thinks he's joking.

215 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:21pm

re: #206 Decatur Deb

They are easily confused. One wants to restore the Roman Republic, the other wants to replace the Republicans.

hard choice huh?

216 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:38pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Ok... what would be the term I should use that would satisfy you when I want to mention or reference the individuals who belong to the religion know as Islam, but who have decided to co-opt the religion to use for political purposes?

Tele-caliphists.

217 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:16:54pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Ok... what would be the term I should use that would satisfy you when I want to mention or reference the individuals who belong to the religion know as Islam, but who have decided to co-opt the religion to use for political purposes?

Do you think the religion is not inherently political?

218 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:17:03pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

well its a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyways.


Organizations and individuals are generally pretty safe to refer to.

Like we have a pretty clear view of the views of Hamas.

219 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:18:05pm

re: #217 abolitionist

I think its not, but you didn't ask me >>

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:19:56pm

re: #198 BigPapa

That seems true, however this phenomenon happens not because of the Christianity but despite it. It does seem a part of Islam in those regions.

I would argue that's only because the areas are remote enough and the distinction between religion and law vague enough. WHen you hear these reports from Africa, say, the church does seem to be at the heart of them, often. And then I look at comments on Christian websites in the states, and I look at James Dobson's work, and I could work myself up to pretty good lather about Christianity requiring child abuse.

I'd be wrong, of course, but I'd be going about getting my information in a fairly unexceptionable way.

221 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:20:57pm

re: #218 windsagio

well its a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyways.

Organizations and individuals are generally pretty safe to refer to.

Like we have a pretty clear view of the views of Hamas.

No, that's not an answer. Since now once in this thread have I been able to satisfy you when I try to make a reference to the radical elements of Islam, and you chide me in the way I phrase my comments, then you just buck up and tell me what your term would be. Not some veiled answer, use the terms you would like me to use.

222 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:20:59pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a scene in "The Loves of Faustyna" when the young woman realizes that her boyfriend is a government agent. (Poland, 1970s) She works it out when he refers to himself as a 'rightist reactionary', and is confused when she thinks he's joking.

Forgive me for quoting Ann Coulter here (eh I am going to hell anyway) but " when someone tells you who they are & what they want to do..."

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:22:40pm

re: #222 brookly red

Forgive me for quoting Ann Coulter here (eh I am going to hell anyway) but " when someone tells you who they are & what they want to do..."

He looks at her in confusion when she says "Ha, right, you're kidding," and says "Aren't we all rightist reactionaries?"

It's what the government calls the student groups. He doesn't realize it's not what they call themselves.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:22:52pm

Going to store. Be back soon.

225 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:23:01pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry you don't like my answer, I think its a good one.

Its okay (imnsho) to talk about say 'Islam' in general, but if you're denigrating, or making accusations, be specific.

226 SandwichKed  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:23:21pm

Ugh. I just *finally* managed to register at LGF, and now I need to learn Danish? This blog is hardcore.

I lived in Germany for a few months back in my college years, and I can still follow that language pretty well. Hell, I still dream in German about once a year. Danish appears to be just close enough to make my eyes bleed, but not so close to get more than about one out of six or so words with any surety.

Oh, and hi. ^^_v

227 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:23:37pm

re: #217 abolitionist

Why do you think it's exceptionally political - more so than the Judeo/Christian faith we always hear about the USA being founded on and through which (we are told) Western laws are derived?

228 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:23:50pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

I would argue that's only because the areas are remote enough and the distinction between religion and law vague enough. WHen you hear these reports from Africa, say, the church does seem to be at the heart of them, often. And then I look at comments on Christian websites in the states, and I look at James Dobson's work, and I could work myself up to pretty good lather about Christianity requiring child abuse.

Very true and I might agree with that. However, on a specific level, I didn't see a good comparison to what Thanos pointed out, that was really my only point.

Recent forays into Africa regarding gays notwithstanding...

229 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:24:01pm

re: #222 brookly red

Forgive me for quoting Ann Coulter here (eh I am going to hell anyway) but " when someone tells you who they are & what they want to do..."

... "then you should take them seriously."

230 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:24:18pm

re: #226 SandwichKed

wilcommen hatchling

231 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:25:42pm

re: #226 SandwichKed

How did you get registered without passing the language battery and the general purpose psychographic?

232 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:25:51pm

re: #226 SandwichKed

Ugh. I just *finally* managed to register at LGF, and now I need to learn Danish? This blog is hardcore.

I lived in Germany for a few months back in my college years, and I can still follow that language pretty well. Hell, I still dream in German about once a year. Danish appears to be just close enough to make my eyes bleed, but not so close to get more than about one out of six or so words with any surety.

Oh, and hi. ^^_v

velkome... does your annual German dream happen in October by any chance?

233 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:25:56pm

re: #218 windsagio

well its a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyways.
Organizations and individuals are generally pretty safe to refer to.
Like we have a pretty clear view of the views of Hamas.

A news story breaks, A Muslim blew himself up in a market some where. I call that person an element of radical Islam. What is inaccurate in that term? I don't know if he is a Wahabi, a Shia, a Sunni, a member of Al-Qaeda, a rogue actor playing alone. What is wrong with the phase "an element of radical Islam." What do you call him?

I'm asking this honestly, not trying to argue or bait you, but I would like your explanation.

234 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:26:16pm

re: #227 wozzablog

Thats the dominant meme... and it drives me crazy. Instead of treating Islam like Christianity, or Buddhism, or hell, a Cargo Cult, people want to make it an enemy movement. I always feel like its a good emotional shortcut for feeling okay about the generalized hate.

235 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:27:06pm

re: #226 SandwichKed

Welcome, hatchling!

236 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:27:46pm

re: #231 Decatur Deb

How did you get registered without passing the language battery and the general purpose psychographic?

/ oh come on, anyone can figure out "eye hate ronald of Paul"

237 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:28:54pm

re: #236 brookly red

/ oh come on, anyone can figure out "eye hate ronald of Paul"

Damn!! Now you've compromised another edition.

238 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:30:12pm

re: #234 windsagio

Pretty much - and doesn't just about every American *politician* seek God's grace in their efforts?. Doesn't that - literally - politicise Christianity?

239 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:31:12pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

I'd call him a "suicide bomber" or a "terrorist".

I'm letting myself get pulled offpoint tho'. In general, nobody's gonna have a stick up their ass about terminology. I think theres a scary mindset behind the associations you make.

240 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:31:55pm

re: #238 wozzablog

Pretty much - and doesn't just about every American *politician* seek God's grace in their efforts?. Doesn't that - literally - politicise Christianity?

well let's start with Leiberman...

241 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:32:05pm

re: #227 wozzablog

Why do you think it's exceptionally political - more so than the Judeo/Christian faith we always hear about the USA being founded on and through which (we are told) Western laws are derived?

Because in the mid '60s, I read Mein Kampf, the Koran, the Old and New Testaments, and more recently, several declarations of war which invariably reference one of those.

242 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:32:33pm

re: #238 wozzablog

hmm. I guess, I don't think anyone is accusing Islamic states of doing that. All the rhetoric is about how their leaders are crazy whackjobs who love the idea of armageddon. I'd be relieved to hear middle-eastern leaders described as so rational and cynical >>

243 Øyvind Strømmen  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:32:58pm

re: #176 wozzablog

I'd wager Islamism is a redundency produced by translation - i'd reckon he means *Islam(fullstop)*.

Well, indirectly he does, since he claims that as good every Danish imam supports Islamism. But the word used is the Danish "islamisme", and that should be translated as "Islamism" and not as "Islam". Of course, other places he does speak of Islam as if Islam was Borg.

244 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:33:27pm

re: #240 brookly red

Does ANYBODY like that guy?

245 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #244 windsagio

Does ANYBODY like that guy?

I do.

246 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:34:04pm

re: #242 windsagio

We tend to have a dislike of the Secular Muslim leaders of ME countries..........

247 SandwichKed  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:34:10pm

re: #232 brookly red

velkome... does your annual German dream happen in October by any chance?

No, usually it's summer, since that's when I was there. I still learned to love beer while there - Kostrizer (too lazy to generate the umlaut) Schwarzbier was the thing that did it. Before that, I'd mostly run into bad American light beer, which I evaluated as slightly alcoholic urine and promptly ignored.

I find the US beer culture that's grown up in the last decade is frankly superior to the quality-enhancing, but self-limiting beer-purity laws that Germany enforces. If I want to get a beer brewed with spices (try Sam Adam's Winter stuff) or honey or... anything, it's possible here. The basic stuff is good, but they're kind of stuck in the 16th century.

248 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:34:59pm

re: #242 windsagio

hmm. I guess, I don't think anyone is accusing Islamic states of doing that. All the rhetoric is about how their leaders are crazy whackjobs who love the idea of armageddon. I'd be relieved to hear middle-eastern leaders described as so rational and cynical >>

Netanyahu's rational.

249 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:35:03pm

re: #245 brookly red

yeah I walked into that one. I somehow got a totally nonsenical reading of your post, and leaped to a freakin' insane conclusion >>

250 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:35:31pm

re: #239 windsagio

I'd call him a "suicide bomber" or a "terrorist".

I'm letting myself get pulled offpoint tho'. In general, nobody's gonna have a stick up their ass about terminology. I think theres a scary mindset behind the associations you make.

No, you're making a comment and then bothered by the fact that I want to challenge your statement. Then drop it, I will.

251 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:35:54pm

re: #248 MandyManners

Is Israel an Islamic state? Am I missing something obvious here?

252 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:35:56pm

re: #247 SandwichKed

No, usually it's summer, since that's when I was there. I still learned to love beer while there - Kostrizer (too lazy to generate the umlaut) Schwarzbier was the thing that did it. Before that, I'd mostly run into bad American light beer, which I evaluated as slightly alcoholic urine and promptly ignored.

I find the US beer culture that's grown up in the last decade is frankly superior to the quality-enhancing, but self-limiting beer-purity laws that Germany enforces. If I want to get a beer brewed with spices (try Sam Adam's Winter stuff) or honey or... anything, it's possible here. The basic stuff is good, but they're kind of stuck in the 16th century.

You speak beer!?! I think we are going to get along just fine...

253 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:36:16pm

re: #240 brookly red

In my lexicon "just about everybody" means "almost everybody".

254 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:37:00pm

re: #249 windsagio

yeah I walked into that one. I somehow got a totally nonsenical reading of your post, and leaped to a freakin' insane conclusion >>

again :)

255 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:37:32pm

re: #245 brookly red

I do.

Same here.

256 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:38:07pm

re: #248 MandyManners

oops, misread some. Its dirty pool to reference Israel. You know what I meant.

And Israel has its own set of issues... which its probably not safe for me to get into here >>

257 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:38:20pm

re: #234 windsagio

Thats the dominant meme... and it drives me crazy. Instead of treating Islam like Christianity, or Buddhism, or hell, a Cargo Cult, people want to make it an enemy movement. I always feel like its a good emotional shortcut for feeling okay about the generalized hate.

It's a mistake to treat Islam, at this time, just like Christianity or Buddhism. It's in a different place that those other religions. This is not a reason to hate, it's pragmatism.

258 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:38:29pm

re: #248 MandyManners

Netanyahu's rational.

ummmm, I would say pragmatic...

259 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:38:39pm

re: #251 windsagio

Is Israel an Islamic state? Am I missing something obvious here?

I'd be relieved to hear middle-eastern leaders

260 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:39:24pm

re: #257 BigPapa

So elaborate how you feel its in a different place.

261 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:39:24pm

re: #256 windsagio

oops, misread some. Its dirty pool to reference Israel. You know what I meant.

And Israel has its own set of issues... which its probably not safe for me to get into here >>

Why is it "dirty pool"? Is Israel not in that region?

262 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:39:38pm

re: #258 brookly red

ummm, I would say pragmatic...

That, too.

263 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:39:56pm

re: #261 MandyManners

Like I said, from the context you knew what I meant. I was just avoiding redundancy in my language >

264 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:40:33pm

re: #263 windsagio

Like I said, from the context you knew what I meant. I was just avoiding redundancy in my language >

Know, I did not know what you meant. I knew what you wrote.

265 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:41:02pm

re: #241 abolitionist

The Qu'ran is a Religious text. Any wars declared on it's behalf are religious wars - unless you believe all wars are political wars, which they aren't in my estimation.

I'll conceede the Qu'ran is a political text if you are willing to conceede that the Bible is a Marxist textbook.........

266 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:42:15pm

re: #257 BigPapa

Are you angling at the Reformation?

Because i don't think the Buddhists had a Reformation.

267 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:42:22pm

re: #260 windsagio

So elaborate how you feel its in a different place.

I shouldn't have to. The world at large is lacking in Christian and Buddhist terrorists at the moment, or even smaller sects of that particular religion.

There also seems to be a thinner line between literal readings of and present day practice in Islam, than say Christianity. If you will, Islam is a few hundred years behind.

268 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:42:35pm

re: #257 BigPapa

It's a mistake to treat Islam, at this time, just like Christianity or Buddhism. It's in a different place that those other religions. This is not a reason to hate, it's pragmatism.

It's in a different place largely because it is fused with governmental powers. Give my former religionists an opportunity to avail themselves of "the secular arm" again, and you will have more crusade than you can stand.

269 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:42:41pm

re: #264 MandyManners

Its a cute trick, if an old one.

Instead of addressing the thrust of the post (about how people like to misrepresent Islam as this evil crazy movement) you latch onto some minor inconsistancy that has essentially nothing to do with the point...

Actually thats wrong, it reinforces my point. It reflects a certain viewpoint on your part about the REST of the Middle East.

270 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:43:00pm

re: #265 wozzablog

The Qu'ran is a Religious text. Any wars declared on it's behalf are religious wars - unless you believe all wars are political wars, which they aren't in my estimation.

I'll conceede the Qu'ran is a political text if you are willing to conceede that the Bible is a Marxist textbook...

Marx stated that religion is the opiate of the masses.

271 Lidane  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:43:13pm

Slight OT, but that bastion of reason and critical thinking WND is currently bleating about Pearl Harbor being attacked again because some 2010 calendars mark December 7th as the Islamic new year and not as Pearl Harbor Day:

"A date which will live in infamy."

That's how President Franklin Roosevelt immortalized Dec. 7, 1941, the day Japanese forces stunned the U.S. with a sudden attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, prompting the U.S. to jump into the Second World War.

Just don't expect to find any mention of that on your calendar this year.

Nearly seven decades after the onslaught, many U.S. calendars produced by American companies are ignoring Pearl Harbor Day, and are displaying instead the Islamic New Year on Dec. 7.

Even calendars promoting the Holy Bible take note of the Muslim observance, while completely omitting the day on which more than 2,000 Americans lost their lives in the surprise attack.

"I have a Psalms calendar, which has a Bible verse on each month's picture, made by BrownTrout Publishers, Inc., and it also has Dec. 7 as the Islamic New Year. No mention of Pearl Harbor Day," said Donna Brandt of Marshalltown, Iowa. "I am incensed and will be giving the BrownTrout Publishers a piece of my mind! Thank you for calling my attention to this blasphemy."

There they go again, trying to remake America! Put Ronald Reagan on your car or in your office and fight the socialist nightmare before it kills the American dream!

Jim Jones of Waco, Texas, also bought a BrownTrout calendar, and says, "We are going to get rid of it. I think I am going back to the store where we bought it (Petsmart) and ask for my money back. I do not want to honor a bunch of fanatics who are trying to kill us infidels. My thinking is all Islamists, if they believe and follow the Quran, are fanatics, and I have no use for them."

WND obtained several calendars from a variety of publishers, including San Francisco-based BrownTrout, which bills itself as the largest calendar publisher in the world, producing about 1,000 separate varieties each year.

In its 2010 Bible calendar, which features a 1563 painting of the Tower of Babel on its cover, the Dec. 7 entry specifies "Islamic New Year," with Pearl Harbor Day completely absent.

There's more, and I'd offer a direct link to it, but it's from World Nut Daily and I completely fail at Google Cache links. Just search for WND, Pearl Harbor, and blasphemy.

272 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:43:30pm

re: #269 windsagio

Its a cute trick, if an old one.

Instead of addressing the thrust of the post (about how people like to misrepresent Islam as this evil crazy movement) you latch onto some minor inconsistancy that has essentially nothing to do with the point...

Actually thats wrong, it reinforces my point. It reflects a certain viewpoint on your part about the REST of the Middle East.

Oh, go piss up a rope.

273 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:43:57pm

and speaking of Israel, I think I read that the administration was threatening to cut off aid if there was no "progress" on peace talks (as the mortars keep landing)... is this true or what?

274 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:44:45pm

re: #272 MandyManners

aah you never fail to deliver.

Tell me how I'm wrong about how people who dislike Islam want to view the leaders of say... Iran.

275 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:44:54pm

re: #266 wozzablog

Are you angling at the Reformation?

Because i don't think the Buddhists had a Reformation.

I have no idea of what you're talking about but it seems you're trying to angle on what you think I am. That's a waste of your time, stick to the subject.

276 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:45:06pm

re: #273 brookly red

no idea if its true, but that would be Suicide >>

277 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:45:29pm

re: #265 wozzablog

The Qu'ran is a Religious text. Any wars declared on it's behalf are religious wars - unless you believe all wars are political wars, which they aren't in my estimation.

I'll conceede the Qu'ran is a political text if you are willing to conceede that the Bible is a Marxist textbook...

Do you think there's any distinction (in islam) between a holy war and a secular (political) one?

As to marxist ideas in the Bible, yes, I concede there are some.

278 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:45:30pm

re: #270 MandyManners

Which is only part of it.

279 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:45:35pm

re: #270 MandyManners

Marx stated that religion is the opiate of the masses.

In NY you need a licence to carry THAT...

280 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:46:23pm

re: #271 Lidane

Here you go:
[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

Just type cache: and then paste the url into google when all else fails, and the cache link will pop up. ;-)

281 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:46:28pm

re: #268 Decatur Deb

It's in a different place largely because it is fused with governmental powers. Give my former religionists an opportunity to avail themselves of "the secular arm" again, and you will have more crusade than you can stand.

On the first point I agree, on the second I'm not so sure. I don't want any crusade, I want the current crusade by the radical fundamentalists to stop.

282 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:46:31pm

re: #277 abolitionist

heh 'some'. Well theres a ton of Communism. I admit thats not quite marxism tho'

283 Lidane  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:47:45pm

re: #280 iceweasel

Just type cache: and then paste the url into google when all else fails, and the cache link will pop up. ;-)

Thanks! I never knew how to do that. :)

284 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:47:57pm

re: #282 windsagio

Agree. Timelines and all. :)

285 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:48:01pm

The Paris-based organization Reporters Without Borders says Iran has earned the dubious distinction of being the number-one assailant of press freedoms in the world, after several sentences were handed down. The rights group says Tehran has at least 42 journalists behind bars.

Paris-based press-watchdog Reporters Without Borders blasted Iran as the "biggest prison in the world for journalists." Following recent arrests, dozens of Iranian journalists are now being detained without trial, in addition to others already serving stiff sentences.

Monday, 36 hardline members of Iran's parliament aligned with President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad and sponsored a bill to have all imprisoned opposition activists who oppose the government declared "enemies of God."

"Enemies of God," or mohareb, are to be executed within five days of their arrest, with a maximum five-day period to appeal the sentence, instead of the usual 25.
Reza Moini of Reporters Without Borders says Iran is now the worst press offender in the world, with the largest number of jailed journalists:

He says Iran has 42 journalists and bloggers in prison, in addition to many others that cannot be counted, since they were arrested in secret. Moini says this makes Iran the biggest prison in the world for journalists. The last two journalists to be condemned, he notes, Ahmed Zeydabadi and Bahman Ahmadi-Amoui were given five and seven-year sentences, while the latter is also to be flogged.


SNIP

286 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:48:54pm

re: #265 wozzablog

The Qu'ran is a Religious text. Any wars declared on it's behalf are religious wars - unless you believe all wars are political wars, which they aren't in my estimation.

I'll conceede the Qu'ran is a political text if you are willing to conceede that the Bible is a Marxist textbook...

It is evident by that statement that you know little of either text. Really, don't start a textual criticism thread here, not with me around, because, as many Lizards will tell you, you'll loose.

Now, are you ready to get beat up?

287 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:48:57pm

I want another children's crusade.

Only on this one,* the Christian adults of the world will focus their energies on the children of the world who are in need. Crusaders to bring education, health, food, and opportunity to the children. Sign me up.

*As opposed to some really bad idea to get kids to go fight, so they all end up in slavery.

288 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:49:06pm

re: #276 windsagio

no idea if its true, but that would be Suicide >>

not my original source but the closest at hand...

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

289 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:49:35pm

re: #285 MandyManners

hmm worse than Myanmar? I kinda doubt that.

I guess you have to have a press to supress, to supress the press.


PS: "Iran is bad" isn't the same as "Iran is crazy"

290 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:50:08pm

re: #269 windsagio

Instead of addressing the thrust of the post (about how people like to misrepresent Islam as this evil crazy movement) you latch onto some minor inconsistancy that has essentially nothing to do with the point...

Actually thats wrong, it reinforces my point. It reflects a certain viewpoint on your part about the REST of the Middle East.

It does not reinforce your point at all. Some people misrepresenting Islam as a crazy movement are less of a problem than actual Muslims acting in a crazy fashion in practice of their religion.

Those who understand this distinction are not racists of the ME, as your last point implies.

291 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:50:41pm

re: #288 brookly red

I admire his ballsiness then. TBH, I don't even know why we're still giving them so much aid.

292 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:50:43pm

re: #275 BigPapa

Ok. Right.

You referenced Islam as being hundreds of years behind mainstream Christianity - several hundred years ago there was a Reformation in the Christian church which did away with some of it's historical doctrines and was - essentially (without foing to PHD level) a house clearing.

Islam did not have a houseclearing of practice and doctrine at the same time, nor in the same way since, - which is why it is often described as being behind Christianity.

I thought thats what you were going at - although the reference to Buddhism did confuse me on that score.

293 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:51:44pm

UAE sheikh acquitted in taped beating
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, a member of the emirates' ruling family, was charged with rape, endangering life and causing bodily harm in connection with the nearly three-hour long tape shot in 2004 in the desert outside Abu Dhabi, one of the United Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf region.

However, the court acquitted Issa on Sunday, ruling he had diminished responsibility for his actions because of the effects of medication his defense attorney claimed he was given. Issa had a "lack of criminal responsibility," the court found, defense attorney Habib al-Mulla told CNN.

"The judiciary system acquitted Issa based on the evidence presented by the defense that the sheikh was under the influence of drugs given to him," al-Mulla said. "That deprived him from his poise and caused him to carry out acts that were out of consciousness and that were photographed with the intention for later extortion."
SNIP

294 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:52:15pm

re: #292 wozzablog

*cough*buddismisacceptablesoitcan'tbelikeislam*cough*

Its an interesting subject tho', the pattern of cultural development in the former Caliphate is substantially different from that of Europe. So very apples and oranges.

295 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:53:00pm

re: #290 BigPapa

talking about leaders, not random members of the religion. Thats clear in my posts and in Mandy's.

296 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:53:24pm

re: #283 Lidane

Thanks! I never knew how to do that. :)

No prob! usually if you just google the URL it will give you an option saying 'cached', but when that doesnt happen this trick will work. Useful when we want to talk about a site we don't want to send traffic to.

297 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:54:52pm

re: #292 wozzablog

I wasn't the first to reference Buddhism, nor was I the first to equivocate Islam to Christianity and Buddhism to Islam (as a whole).

I look forward to a day where I can.

298 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:56:07pm

re: #291 windsagio

I admire his ballsiness then. TBH, I don't even know why we're still giving them so much aid.

I don't know why we give any one aid with our unemployment rate, but we do... and under the circumstances I don't think we should threaten our allies especially ones that could just as easily side with India or China...

299 Kronocide  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:56:57pm

re: #292 wozzablog


Islam did not have a houseclearing of practice and doctrine at the same time, nor in the same way since, - which is why it is often described as being behind Christianity.

Islam is due for that housecleaning. Hopefully the majority of Muslims will recognize that, which is what it took for Christianity to change.

300 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:57:22pm

re: #298 brookly red

Hmm, lets look at it from a cost-analysis perspective. What do we gain from the aid? Is it worth gambling to get our goals in the region met?

301 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:58:15pm

re: #277 abolitionist

It entirely depends on who calls for the war and what the basis for the war is.

If Britain elected a Muslim Prime Minister, who then declared war due to an act of agression by another power - that would be a secular political war declared by a Muslim.

There are secular Muslims who seperate their religion from their political standing.

If it walks like a war for the glory of god, talks like a war for the glory of god - then it is a war for the glory of god. Al-Qaeda's declaration of war was a war for the glory of God.

An otherwise secular muslim nation defending itself from external aggression would not be engaged in a war for the Glory of God, but for national survival.
I can't though speak for what is in each combatants heart.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:58:37pm

re: #229 brookly red

... "then you should take them seriously."

I do take Miss Coulter seriously. She's told me exactly what she wants to do to people like me. ;)

303 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 5:58:39pm

re: #300 windsagio

Hmm, lets look at it from a cost-analysis perspective. What do we gain from the aid? Is it worth gambling to get our goals in the region met?

OK what are our goals in the region?

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:00:00pm

re: #234 windsagio

Thats the dominant meme... and it drives me crazy. Instead of treating Islam like Christianity, or Buddhism, or hell, a Cargo Cult, people want to make it an enemy movement. I always feel like its a good emotional shortcut for feeling okay about the generalized hate.

It gets backed up with bad history. That's what makes me crazy!

But part of it is also figuring out what you call an enemy movement that believes itself to be the only valid expression of Islam. I say we don't play along with 'em.

305 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:01:11pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

But.....but.....but.... then you are not with *us*.... you are a'gin *us*...........

306 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:01:31pm

re: #240 brookly red

well let's start with Leiberman...

Who is still seen as sufficiently alien that people kept fretting about whether he'd deploy nukes of a Shabbos. Lieberman's faith was used against him.

307 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:01:56pm

re: #303 brookly red

well in this case, our stated goal is a workable peace with the Palestinians.

I'm trying to think what our other goals are in respect to Israel. (leaving side political forces, like the various lobbies out of it)

308 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:02:20pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I do take Miss Coulter seriously. She's told me exactly what she wants to do to people like me. ;)

Sure-- when she isn't saying that Jews need to be 'perfected', she's saying things like "We need to execute John Walker Lindh, in order to physically intimidate liberals and make them know they can be killed too."

Or she's advocating blowing up the NYT building, or putting poison in Justice Souter's creme brulee, or other such 'jokes'.
It's really not very surprising that some of the mouthbreathers at hotair and elsewhere are babbling about killing elected officials or having a coup d'etat or killing liberals. They've been fed a steady stream of 'jokes' like these for years.

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:02:25pm

re: #246 wozzablog

We tend to have a dislike of the Secular Muslim leaders of ME countries...

They tend to be terrible people, to be perfectly honest.

We also tend to support them until we don't anymore.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:03:27pm

re: #248 MandyManners

Netanyahu's rational.

Well, kind of. I can never keep track of who Bibi's being any given week.

//I like him OK, I just don't like him all the way...

311 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:04:15pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

I s'pose the trick is 'how do you deal with those people?' Maybe thats what you meant by 'playing along with them'. We probably shouldn't play this by their rules >

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:04:51pm

re: #257 BigPapa

It's a mistake to treat Islam, at this time, just like Christianity or Buddhism. It's in a different place that those other religions. This is not a reason to hate, it's pragmatism.

I think you've hit the key phrase--it's a question of where it is, historically speaking.

But I think that for that same reason, we have to be very careful understanding all the moving parts, rather than letting the whole thing mush into one vague floating threat.

313 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:05:17pm

re: #301 wozzablog

[snip] There are secular Muslims who seperate their religion from their political standing. [snip]

Unfortunately, there is little they can point to in any (islamic) religious texts to support their ideas of right and wrong. In fact, the prophet said (of the ummah) "they have no choice."

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:06:42pm

re: #266 wozzablog

Are you angling at the Reformation?

Because i don't think the Buddhists had a Reformation.

The Reformation itself isn't what got Christianity out of its hard times, in fact, it made them substantially worse and nastier.

The word we need here is Enlightenment. It takes a while, but it does wonders for the patient.

Of course, since Buddhism's whole goal is for the faithful to seek such, maybe they didn't need to do it as a group...

315 Øyvind Strømmen  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:07:49pm

re: #292 wozzablog

Islam did not have a houseclearing of practice and doctrine at the same time, nor in the same way since, - which is why it is often described as being behind Christianity.

Well, one could argue that it's the Reformation that's going on right now. And considering the Reformation was bit more bloody than the image of an overweight monk hammering up a poster on a church door, that's not necessarily good news. Many people in the West seem to have an overly romantic view of the Reformation.

There are at least some interesting parallells to draw between the Anabaptists in Münster and certain Islamist groups.

316 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:07:59pm

re: #307 windsagio

well in this case, our stated goal is a workable peace with the Palestinians.

I'm trying to think what our other goals are in respect to Israel. (leaving side political forces, like the various lobbies out of it)

Well peace with people who don't want it isn't realistic, but if we don't support Israel the Chinese would love a Mediterranean port & wouldn't let a few pesky natives stand in the way... no I think our goals are more complicated than that.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:08:10pm

re: #279 brookly red

In NY you need a licence to carry THAT...

In San Francisco you just need a note from your doctor.

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:09:29pm

re: #291 windsagio

I admire his ballsiness then. TBH, I don't even know why we're still giving them so much aid.

Why are we giving so much to Egypt? Why so much to Gaza and the PA?

319 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:09:54pm

re: #299 BigPapa

I've seen it written so many times: Islam is due for a reformation, or house cleaning. I would like to see it too. But, you know, maybe its not going to happen. Just because Christianity had a reformation, it doesn't necessarily mean Islam will have one.

320 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:10:33pm

re: #316 brookly red

I think we have to take the State Department at their word on this one. If thats not our goal, why are we pressing for it?


BUT! There is something I wanna grab in that... The generalized assumption that 'they simply don't want peace'. There are powerful forces that don't certainly, but they're hardly everyone. I think our government would argue that most of the people there DO want peace, but that hte process is constantly being gut-punched by extremist factions on both sides.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:11:09pm

re: #305 wozzablog

But...but...but... then you are not with *us*... you are a'gin *us*...

I am agin bad history, people getting hurt, and dumbasses. Everything else, I keep an open mind on.

322 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:11:09pm

re: #318 SanFranciscoZionist

Why are we giving so much to Egypt? Why so much to Gaza and the PA?

cause we know that if we leave there are others that will take our place...

323 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:11:22pm

re: #286 Walter L. Newton

I don't believe the Bible is a Marxist Textbook, given that Opiate of the Masses opinion of ol' Karl kind of negating the whole concept in the first place.

As to why Islam and the Qu'ran are any more political than any other combination of Religion and Text, when i posed the question earlier i had MeinKampf thrown at me.......... something that didn't invoke Godwin's Law as an answer is always appreciated.

However - it's gone 2am, and i'm headed for bed with far too much to do in the morning.

324 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:12:02pm

re: #318 SanFranciscoZionist

why indeed? What are we getting back from those programs?

That being said, Israel is in a substantially better place than say Egypt is. (lets leave the PA out of it, thats just a nightmare). Whether we should give them aid or not, Egypt sure can use the money more than Israel can.

325 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:12:33pm

re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist

That is true.

But you do rarely meet a personable strongman - religious or secular.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:12:38pm

re: #308 iceweasel

Sure-- when she isn't saying that Jews need to be 'perfected', she's saying things like "We need to execute John Walker Lindh, in order to physically intimidate liberals and make them know they can be killed too."

Or she's advocating blowing up the NYT building, or putting poison in Justice Souter's creme brulee, or other such 'jokes'.
It's really not very surprising that some of the mouthbreathers at hotair and elsewhere are babbling about killing elected officials or having a coup d'etat or killing liberals. They've been fed a steady stream of 'jokes' like these for years.

Ann Coulter sees me as the enemy, and I return the favor. It is very convenient.

Poor ol' Souter. The least activist judge on the face of the earth, and what does he get? Grief, and poisoned desserts.

327 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:13:50pm

re: #322 brookly red

I kinda think we should just leave the whole Middle East to their own devices... well except for maybe the oil producing states, they at least have something we need. We're only hurting ourselves and bleeding money by spending so much effort and money there.

This isn't the '70s with Nasser playing the US and USSR against each other, with the whole world to gain.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:13:50pm

re: #311 windsagio

I s'pose the trick is 'how do you deal with those people?' Maybe thats what you meant by 'playing along with them'. We probably shouldn't play this by their rules >

Intelligence. Outreach. Politics. Major military hardware. More intelligence, more outreach. Lots of airport security. And never, never let the bastards speak for Islam.

329 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:13:55pm

re: #320 windsagio

I think we have to take the State Department at their word on this one. If thats not our goal, why are we pressing for it?

BUT! There is something I wanna grab in that... The generalized assumption that 'they simply don't want peace'. There are powerful forces that don't certainly, but they're hardly everyone. I think our government would argue that most of the people there DO want peace, but that hte process is constantly being gut-punched by extremist factions on both sides.

well yes & no I will concede that there are outside forces at work (hell we are one of them) but the indoctrination of hate is also a very big factor... it is a mess.

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:14:18pm

re: #313 abolitionist

[snip] There are secular Muslims who seperate their religion from their political standing. [snip]

Unfortunately, there is little they can point to in any (islamic) religious texts to support their ideas of right and wrong. In fact, the prophet said (of the ummah) "they have no choice."

About what?

331 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:15:44pm

re: #319 sandbox

I've seen it written so many times: Islam is due for a reformation, or house cleaning. I would like to see it too. But, you know, maybe its not going to happen. Just because Christianity had a reformation, it doesn't necessarily mean Islam will have one.

Islam is undergoing a reformation as we speak. The influx of petrodollars has resulted in the spread of wahabiism all over the world. Even places like Malaysia, Thailand, etc which in the past have had localized versions of Islam are now adopting a more extreme "arabized" version. The reformation in Islam is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:15:57pm

re: #315 oslogin

Well, one could argue that it's the Reformation that's going on right now. And considering the Reformation was bit more bloody than the image of an overweight monk hammering up a poster on a church door, that's not necessarily good news. Many people in the West seem to have an overly romantic view of the Reformation.

There are at least some interesting parallells to draw between the Anabaptists in Münster and certain Islamist groups.

I quite agree. The Reformation led to horrific infighting, parallel to much of what we're seeing now, and a passion for controlling the faithful, punishing the heretic, and living in increasingly pure and psychotic little groups. Sound familiar?

But the ENLIGHTENMENT, people. The ENLIGHTENMENT.

333 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:16:31pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Right. It's depressing.

334 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:16:55pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

But the ENLIGHTENMENT, people. The ENLIGHTENMENT.

Bingo.

335 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:17:22pm

re: #319 sandbox

I've seen it written so many times: Islam is due for a reformation, or house cleaning. I would like to see it too. But, you know, maybe its not going to happen. Just because Christianity had a reformation, it doesn't necessarily mean Islam will have one.

Ah, don't bring me down, dude. /

You're right. It's not written in the stars. But I see it as a possibility.

It's also possible that this current situation will burn itself out in a generation or two, or political facts will change on the ground. The only way out, though, is through.

336 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:17:41pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Islam is undergoing a reformation as we speak. The influx of petrodollars has resulted in the spread of wahabiism all over the world. Even places like Malaysia, Thailand, etc which in the past have had localized versions of Islam are now adopting a more extreme "arabized" version. The reformation in Islam is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.

Nobody expected the Wahabi Inquisition.

337 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:18:25pm

re: #329 brookly red

It is indeed a mess!

re: #331 Killgore Trout

yeah you said it, 'reformation in the wrong direction' is scary.

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

Except the enlightenment has already happened. We can't expect another movement like that to appear in the world, it would have to be a reaction to what happened in the west. I just wish there were a good way to reach out with the Enlightenment ideals (altho, we might just be too busy fighting for them at home for any outreach)


Meta: I tend to be spammy, do you guys prefer posts combined like this, or broken up?

338 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:18:27pm

re: #315 oslogin

Hopefully it will be better and less bloody this time around - oh i know it wasn't a bed of roasaries the first time around, believe me.

I've done work with secular publications eminating from the Muslim community - and there is definately change afoot across the wider Muslim community, not just among those of higher profile trying to reclaim the faith from the violent elements.

339 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:18:31pm

re: #327 windsagio

I kinda think we should just leave the whole Middle East to their own devices... well except for maybe the oil producing states, they at least have something we need. We're only hurting ourselves and bleeding money by spending so much effort and money there.

This isn't the '70s with Nasser playing the US and USSR against each other, with the whole world to gain.

I appreciate the sentiment, but with nukes & jet planes & oil & navies & armies & politics and every other freaking thing, it just ain't practical.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:18:55pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Islam is undergoing a reformation as we speak. The influx of petrodollars has resulted in the spread of wahabiism all over the world. Even places like Malaysia, Thailand, etc which in the past have had localized versions of Islam are now adopting a more extreme "arabized" version. The reformation in Islam is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.

Still on parallel track with the Christian version.

341 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:19:33pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

Intelligence. Outreach. Politics. Major military hardware. More intelligence, more outreach. Lots of airport security. And never, never let the bastards speak for Islam.

Those methods take us so far, but if we are actually going to play kulturkampf, then we must use cultural weapons: technology, economics, religious subversion, generational schism, and everything else in the anthropology toolkit.

342 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:20:06pm

.re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you've hit the key phrase--it's a question of where it is, historically speaking.

But I think that for that same reason, we have to be very careful understanding all the moving parts, rather than letting the whole thing mush into one vague floating threat.

You're so smart, sigh.

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:20:24pm

re: #341 Decatur Deb

Those methods take us so far, but if we are actually going to play kulturkampf, then we must use cultural weapons: technology, economics, religious subversion, generational schism, and everything else in the anthropology toolkit.

That was sort of what I meant by outreach. And yeah, we need to play all those cards.

344 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:20:32pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Islam is undergoing a reformation as we speak. The influx of petrodollars has resulted in the spread of wahabiism all over the world. Even places like Malaysia, Thailand, etc which in the past have had localized versions of Islam are now adopting a more extreme "arabized" version. The reformation in Islam is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.

uh huh & yep

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:20:49pm

re: #342 prairiefire

.


You're so smart, sigh.

I'll take that as a compliment?...

346 SandwichKed  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:22:06pm

re: #336 Alouette

Nobody expected the Wahabi Inquisition.

Sadly, everyone expects the Wahbi Inquisition.

347 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:22:10pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

Still on parallel track with the Christian version.

no it still isn't mainstream Christian to kill non believers...

348 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:23:26pm

re: #347 brookly red

no it still isn't mainstream Christian to kill non believers...

It has been, and could be again.

349 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:23:33pm

re: #339 brookly red

Again, I'm hardly isolationist, but hows that relate to us?

Theres no reasonable way the mid-east can mess with us except for via the Oil. And the only state with real nuclear capability has a strong vested interest in keeping the others out of that particular club.

I guess its cold-war thinking, in the end. "If we don't deal with them they'll side with the Commies!" (not a dig at you, just generalized reflection)

I do agree its not practical tho'. There's far too much vested politically by various factions for there to be any reform. I'm just lookin' at a fun mental exercise.

350 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:23:33pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

Ann Coulter sees me as the enemy, and I return the favor. It is very convenient.

Poor ol' Souter. The least activist judge on the face of the earth, and what does he get? Grief, and poisoned desserts.

I know. And was a GHWB appt, yet. Oh well.

351 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:25:33pm

re: #345 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. No sarc tag.

352 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:26:12pm

re: #346 SandwichKed

Sadly, everyone expects the Wahbi Inquisition.

if fact we look for it every freakin time you get on an air plane & it still ain't good enough. We have some nice people here in NYC that allegedly were planning to bomb a high school ... things are not going in the right direction.

353 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:26:27pm

re: #350 iceweasel

I know. And was a GHWB appt, yet. Oh well.

You doing alright Ice? How is Jimmah?
/How many souls have died in the name of Religion? I have issues with religion but not with God..

354 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:26:51pm

Maybe Islam will "evolve"--have some kind of reformation. Maybe it won't. None of us know, but I'm not holding my breath.

While we're waiting, how about we (the USA) adopt a policy that no radical islamists be admitted to the US--no visas that is. Moderates yes, radical no.

355 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:27:32pm

re: #354 sandbox

lol there're those terms again. Define 'radical islamist' in such a way as it could be a real law.

356 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:27:49pm

OT Sortof:

Just checked out this post over at Hotair.com: Video: The exquisite timing of SNL, and it kind of sort of seems a bit like Ed is pointing his index finger at Reid and yet has 3 more pointing back to himself...in terms of his commenters that he does nothing about that post comments a million times worse than anything Reid said and Ed seems to be taking this "look how pure" we are stand on the issue.

Just sayin.

357 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:28:01pm

re: #348 Decatur Deb

It has been, and could be again.

oooooh, you do have a point. I am not quite ready to feed the unndie-bomber to the lions- yet :)

358 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:28:35pm

re: #313 abolitionist

You can walk with the faith of your particular God in your heart and still take difficult positions.

Never seen a news story about a Catholic Pol being in trouble for their position of heresy on Abortion or Gay Marriage then?

Religious people can walk and chew gum at the same time.

359 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:29:20pm

re: #347 brookly red

It used to be mainstream, and done with the Glory Of God in the heart.

360 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:30:35pm

I think King Abdullah of Jordan is a good, modern, ME leader.

361 Taqyia2Me  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:30:45pm

IceWeasel-
Way OT from current, but finally got to my PC. Here's a couple links re: John Edwards channeling an unborn baby in a court case:
[Link: www.pittsburghlive.com...]
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(I'll work at getting adept on my Iphone web usage...it's an amazing thing but so far, I'm just scratching the surface)

362 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:30:47pm

re: #355 windsagio

A radical islamist is defined as anyone who wants to compel the host country's Muslim population to conform to sharia law or who supports violent jihad as a way to settle international disputes.

363 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:32:20pm

re: #361 Taqyia2Me

IceWeasel-
Way OT from current, but finally got to my PC. Here's a couple links re: John Edwards channeling an unborn baby in a court case:
[Link: www.pittsburghlive.com...]
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

(I'll work at getting adept on my Iphone web usage...it's an amazing thing but so far, I'm just scratching the surface)

Hey, thanks!! Bookmarked!

364 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:32:54pm

re: #362 sandbox

thats a reasonable definition. Thank you :)

365 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:33:07pm

re: #22 Charles

Øyvind Strømmen has written an interesting rebuttal of the claims going around right wing blogs supporting Hedegaard; here's the Google translation to English from Norwegian: "No fascists to see" - comment on a Danish blog war.

A phrase in there could become a rotating tagline: "their explanation is fuldkommen gak."

366 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:33:49pm

re: #360 prairiefire

I think King Abdullah of Jordan is a good, modern, ME leader.

But how did he get to be a leader?

367 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:33:56pm

re: #350 iceweasel

I know. And was a GHWB appt, yet. Oh well.

Here's the latest from CPAC darling Ann Coulter.

Apparently Ms. Clueless thinks you can hide a bomb under foreskin. O'Reilly takes this all with a straight face.

368 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:34:17pm

ok. it's not getting any earlier folks and the amount i have to do in the morning hasn't decreased in the last 20 minutes.

I bid y'all adieu.

369 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:34:19pm

re: #349 windsagio

Again, I'm hardly isolationist, but hows that relate to us?

Theres no reasonable way the mid-east can mess with us except for via the Oil. And the only state with real nuclear capability has a strong vested interest in keeping the others out of that particular club.

I guess its cold-war thinking, in the end. "If we don't deal with them they'll side with the Commies!" (not a dig at you, just generalized reflection)

I do agree its not practical tho'. There's far too much vested politically by various factions for there to be any reform. I'm just lookin' at a fun mental exercise.

Non necessarily the commies although Israel does do biz with the Chinese, who do do biz with Iran. India is also a player, it is important for us Americans to realize that we are not the only game in town... and with our current administration are weaker every day in every way.

370 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:34:46pm

re: #360 prairiefire

And it's not just because he made eyes at me in the school cafeteria!

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:34:48pm

re: #347 brookly red

no it still isn't mainstream Christian to kill non believers...

It was during the Reformation. BOY was it.

372 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:35:15pm

re: #355 windsagio

lol there're those terms again. Define 'radical islamist' in such a way as it could be a real law.

Every snowflake in a blizzard can say "who, me?" If we ever did fill up with enough jihad-prone radicals to cause even more problems than now, we'd probably have to do something like revive/revamp the sedition laws.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:35:18pm

re: #351 prairiefire

Yes. No sarc tag.

Thank you!

374 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:35:31pm

re: #366 Alouette

But how did he get to be a leader?

In a process somewhat reminiscent of one of our recent leaders.

/semi

375 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:35:34pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

About what?

About any aspect of law, justice, etc. The model of governance is that law comes from the book, which is the word of allah. Man-made law is viewed as bad because man is evil. And only an elite few, imams etc, who know the book (the law), are qualified to figure out how the law is to be applied (to govern the masses). Personal or popular opinion doesn't count. At all.

It sounds extreme, but it is what it is. Mo was very much into divide-and-conquor, and it shows.

376 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:36:59pm

re: #371 SanFranciscoZionist

It was during the Reformation. BOY was it.

so let's kinda stick to the present time shall we...

377 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:37:27pm

re: #367 Gus 802

ew, I don't think I wanna watch that.

re: #369 brookly red

nono, I'm not saying they wouldn't turn anywhere else, but what do we GET from it?

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:37:46pm

re: #367 Gus 802

Here's the latest from CPAC darling Ann Coulter.

[Video]

Apparently Ms. Clueless thinks you can hide a bomb under foreskin. O'Reilly takes this all with a straight face.

Only if the bomb is very small, or the foreskin is freakishly large...also, your average Muslim terrorist is, er, unlikely to have one.

HUH?

379 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:38:37pm

re: #377 windsagio

ew, I don't think I wanna watch that.

re: #369 brookly red

nono, I'm not saying they wouldn't turn anywhere else, but what do we GET from it?

intelligence, real estate & moral high ground.

380 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:39:21pm

re: #376 brookly red

so let's kinda stick to the present time shall we...

Sure, but my historical model is what I was referring to.

381 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:40:13pm

re: #380 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, but my historical model is what I was referring to.

cool, but be here now in a Berkeley kinda way...

382 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:40:33pm

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

Only if the bomb is very small, or the foreskin is freakishly large...also, your average Muslim terrorist is, er, unlikely to have one.

HUH?

My thoughts exactly. I would have to be freakishly large. What made her go there I don't know. She's all amped up and then goes on to say that the lines at the airports for people to be searched is nothing but "BLONDE women." I think I understand the subtext but she was rattling off about this being because they're "politically correct."

383 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:41:12pm

re: #379 brookly red

intelligence to what end? It can't just be to further project power in the same region. Thats a tautology (or like one) :p

Real estate... I presume you mean the various bases, same deal.

Moral High Ground, that I don't get at all. Whats moral about simultaneously funding 2 groups that are, in essence, trying to destroy each other?

384 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:41:28pm

re: #372 The Sanity Inspector

The UK has been at that point for years now. But no sedition laws there. It will be tough.

385 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:42:00pm

re: #360 prairiefire

I think King Abdullah of Jordan is a good, modern, ME leader.

No Juice allowed to live in Jordan.
Death penalty for anyone who sells land to the Juice.

Yes indeedy, good, modern ME leader.
/

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:42:15pm

re: #381 brookly red

cool, but be here now in a Berkeley kinda way...

Do I haveta? Here and now is so much less manageable than the dead and gone...

/

387 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:42:35pm

re: #384 sandbox

The depth and breadth of our incitement laws do well enough, thank you.

388 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:42:36pm

re: #383 windsagio

intelligence to what end? It can't just be to further project power in the same region. Thats a tautology (or like one) :p

Real estate... I presume you mean the various bases, same deal.

Moral High Ground, that I don't get at all. Whats moral about simultaneously funding 2 groups that are, in essence, trying to destroy each other?

well you get it or you don't, what can I say?

389 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:42:40pm

re: #382 Gus 802

Oops. I said "I would have to be freakishly large" when I should have said "IT would have to be freakishly large." Now that's kind of funny.

390 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:43:30pm

re: #387 wozzablog

The depth and breadth of our incitement laws do well enough, thank you.

Go to bed... :)

391 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:43:40pm

Hey! Guess what! Drudge is no linking to INFORWARS!

392 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:43:47pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

Do I haveta? Here and now is so much less manageable than the dead and gone...

/

put your thumbs and middle fingers together & just say Ommmmmmmmmmm

393 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:44:03pm

re: #374 Decatur Deb

In a process somewhat reminiscent of one of our recent leaders.

/semi

The British arbitrarily lopped off 70% of somebody's national homeland in order to give which one of our recent leaders his very own kingdom to rule over?

394 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:44:06pm

re: #388 brookly red

You're right I don't. Thats why I'm asking.

I really, really, really don't get it.

...

And nobody seems to be able to help me beyond circular argument.

395 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:44:14pm

re: #391 Gus 802

Hey! Guess what! Drudge is no NOW linking to INFORWARS!

Damn, I'm not doing very good. PIMF!

396 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:44:23pm

re: #382 Gus 802

My thoughts exactly. I would have to be freakishly large. What made her go there I don't know. She's all amped up and then goes on to say that the lines at the airports for people to be searched is nothing but "BLONDE women." I think I understand the subtext but she was rattling off about this being because they're "politically correct."

What a nutbar. Thanks for the vid-- I'd seen a partial transcript somewhere (TPM, prolly) but not the vid. What a maroon.

397 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:45:00pm

re: #382 Gus 802

snip She's all amped up and then goes on to say that the lines at the airports for people to be searched is nothing but "BLONDE women." I think I understand the subtext but she was rattling off about this being because they're "politically correct."

If the bad guys are as smart as we fear, the next pantybomber will be a blonde.

Remember this? [Link: www.faqs.org...]

398 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:45:15pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Damn, I'm not doing very good. PIMF!

baby, you're always one of the best. :-)

399 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:45:18pm

re: #396 iceweasel

What a nutbar. Thanks for the vid-- I'd seen a partial transcript somewhere (TPM, prolly) but not the vid. What a maroon.

Came across it while digging for the latest dirt. Coulter is always saying something stupid. It was on Firedoglake.

400 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:45:29pm

re: #282 windsagio

heh 'some'. Well theres a ton of Communism. I admit thats not quite marxism tho'

The sharing of possessions in the New Testament does not forcibly occur at gunpoint upon unwilling participants. Ergo, it's not communism. The whole "communism is biblical" theme was always a fig leaf for western proggs, who didn't want to be troubled by the horrorshow unfolding overseas after 1917, when their ideal was put into grim, bloody practice.

401 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:46:25pm

re: #382 Gus 802

She may be right about bombers continuing to design ways around the scanning machinery, though. I read a piece recently (can't remember the link)
suggesting that the US security was gradually coming around to switching from looking for devices to looking at people like El Al does.

402 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:47:18pm

Drudge links to Infowars! LOL

...
IAFRICA
INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIB
INFOWARS
INVEST BUS DAILY
JERUSALEM POST
LA DAILY NEWS
...

403 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #399 Gus 802

Came across it while digging for the latest dirt. Coulter is always saying something stupid. It was on Firedoglake.

Hey, you havent happened to come across any pics of coulter, preferably on Fox News or some other talking head show, with her mouth open or some other unflattering expression, have you?
I'm working on a little collection for uh, a little project Jimmah and I have underway....

404 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:48:09pm

re: #384 sandbox

OK, then. More things I did not know. I don't approve of that.
Nobody biting on my King Abdullah making eyes at me" line?
True story, happened at the international college I went to England. He was there visiting the Jordanian Ambassador to the Court of Saint James's son who was attending my school.
A couple days later some guy friends told me about his visit to the school, pulling up in limos, security guards. I was like "that short guy?"
Anywhoo...

405 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:48:11pm

re: #400 The Sanity Inspector

Well said.

406 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:48:38pm

re: #394 windsagio

You're right I don't. Thats why I'm asking.

I really, really, really don't get it.

...

And nobody seems to be able to help me beyond circular argument.

I don't mean this as a put down or some kinda insult, but there is good, there is bad & there is history (which I will admit is his-story) & all I can say is seek and you shall find.

407 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:49:02pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, just had to step back in for that one.

Incitement to hatred, riot, certain sorts of assemblly, nuiseance, all violence - preaching any sort of violent Jihad is incitement to atleast of of the thousand laws on the books. It's prosecutorial will - believe me, not the lack of a framework of legislation to back it up.

But - sedition laws face the same problem Britain does with it's incitement laws in many of the same ways - plots of extremeists tend to be small and the *interesting* preaching goes on to small groups of the already devout who are unlikely to call the cops on it.

Yes. Peace, out.

408 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:49:10pm

re: #400 The Sanity Inspector

alot of people would disagree with your concept of communism as always forcibly violent. You're confusing real-life political movements/governments with an unworkable social ideal. Funnily the social rules shown in the New Testament aren't really workable for large groups or societies either!

That doesn't keep people from being Christian of course.

409 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:49:11pm

re: #403 iceweasel

Hey, you havent happened to come across any pics of coulter, preferably on Fox News or some other talking head show, with her mouth open or some other unflattering expression, have you?
I'm working on a little collection for uh, a little project Jimmah and I have underway...

None that I saw. I'm sure there are plenty.

410 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:49:18pm

re: #401 jaunte

She may be right about bombers continuing to design ways around the scanning machinery, though. I read a piece recently (can't remember the link)
suggesting that the US security was gradually coming around to switching from looking for devices to looking at people like El Al does.

We really need to do both. It's a given that whatever known security devices we put in place, (body scanners, what have you) bombers will always be seeking to circumvent them.

411 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:49:32pm

re: #403 iceweasel

Hey, you havent happened to come across any pics of coulter, preferably on Fox News or some other talking head show, with her mouth open or some other unflattering expression, have you?
I'm working on a little collection for uh, a little project Jimmah and I have underway...

I have a picture of her giving me a blow job... would that work?

412 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:10pm

re: #393 Alouette

The British arbitrarily lopped off 70% of somebody's national homeland in order to give which one of our recent leaders his very own kingdom to rule over?

The British have been reassigning kingdoms, including my ancestral island, for lo these many centuries. Among other pecadillos, they invented Iraq. Abdullah would not be king if his father had not been king.....

413 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:28pm

re: #409 Gus 802

None that I saw. I'm sure there are plenty.

Yes, I have a couple already, but am feeling lazy. Cheers anyway!

414 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:38pm

re: #410 iceweasel

I can be relied on to point out the obvious.

415 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:47pm

re: #407 wozzablog

Sorry, just had to step back in for that one.

Incitement to hatred, riot, certain sorts of assemblly, nuiseance, all violence - preaching any sort of violent Jihad is incitement to atleast of of the thousand laws on the books. It's prosecutorial will - believe me, not the lack of a framework of legislation to back it up.

But - sedition laws face the same problem Britain does with it's incitement laws in many of the same ways - plots of extremeists tend to be small and the *interesting* preaching goes on to small groups of the already devout who are unlikely to call the cops on it.

Yes. Peace, out.

Sorry to rattle you. I was having supper, came back, you was still up, just fussing with you... now go to bed :)

416 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:47pm

re: #187 wozzablog

I've never heard "Christianist" - but "Islamist" is an old one.

Sully uses it, to describe RW evangelicals who irk him.

417 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:50:55pm

re: #410 iceweasel

We really need to do both. It's a given that whatever known security devices we put in place, (body scanners, what have you) bombers will always be seeking to circumvent them.

sniff sniff, woff woff...

418 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:51:40pm

re: #406 brookly red

well if you wanna play it that way, theres also 50+ years of misinformation and propaganda.

If you can't define your points, you might want to reconsider them...

419 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:52:01pm

re: #411 Walter L. Newton

I have a picture of her giving me a blow job... would that work?

Is your butt in it?

BTW, word to the wise: do NOT search for pics of Coulter without at least moderate safe search on. Some really awful things out there, no matter how much one dislikes the woman.

420 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:52:05pm

My #404 was meant to reply to Alouette's #385, sorry.

421 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:52:09pm

re: #411 Walter L. Newton

I have a picture of her giving me a blow job... would that work?

she does look a bit hungry... how lucky do you feel?

422 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:52:30pm

re: #415 Walter L. Newton

all fussing over my well being is appreciated.


:-)

cheers.

423 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:53:02pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Which article? I don't see it.

424 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:53:13pm

re: #414 jaunte

I can be relied on to point out the obvious.

yeah, I know I was being rather obvious there...sorry.

425 sandbox  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:53:36pm

re: #417 brookly red

Umar, the underwear bomber should have been denied a visa because he was a radical islamist. It's as simple as that.

426 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:53:49pm

re: #424 iceweasel

No problem, it's true!

427 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:54:01pm

re: #423 Killgore Trout

Which article? I don't see it.

Not to an article. It's a direct permanent link right below INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIB.

428 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:54:17pm

re: #418 windsagio

well if you wanna play it that way, theres also 50+ years of misinformation and propaganda.

If you can't define your points, you might want to reconsider them...

look, you see what you want to see... there is some water drink if you want.

429 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:55:39pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Not to an article. It's a direct permanent link right below INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIB.

Ah, ok. I see it now. Ugh.

430 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:56:15pm

re: #428 brookly red

no seriously. You either won't or can't support your position at all.

We're all being nice here, but that generally implies a more emotionally held than rationally held position... And I think alot of our policy re: the middle-east is exactly that.

431 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:56:28pm

re: #429 Killgore Trout

Ah, ok. I see it now. Ugh.

Yep! This should be interesting.

432 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:56:44pm

re: #425 sandbox

Umar, the underwear bomber should have been denied a visa because he was a radical islamist. It's as simple as that.

well frickin yes! but since he was not, sniff sniff, woff woff.

433 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 6:58:40pm

re: #430 windsagio

no seriously. You either won't or can't support your position at all.

We're all being nice here, but that generally implies a more emotionally held than rationally held position... And I think alot of our policy re: the middle-east is exactly that.

I am being nice, what would you do re: policy ?

434 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:01:32pm

re: #431 Gus 802

Yep! This should be interesting.


I don't predict any outrage over this. The Neocon thing is well over with and the Birch Society is back. Anyone still on the right at this point is comfortable with this. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Alex Jones Speaking at Republican events soon or writing for sites like Townhall or WND. Rush Limbaugh linked to Alex Jones recently too. The sigma is pretty much gone.

435 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:02:54pm

re: #433 brookly red

what WILL happen is that we'll keep doing exactly what we've been doing since the beginning of the Cold War.

What I wish would happen is that we started seeing results (either in standard of living or practical gain for the US) for the aid we give. As it is, we give the aid, and most of the nations in question give us the finger if the subject is actually important to them... And also seeing that 'standard of living' aid being appropriated in a reasonable way.

Pissing in the wind I know. But thats what I think would be 'right'.

To come full circle, us threatening to withhold aid from Israel over the peace process is exactly what we should be doing, since we're giving them the damn money anyways. The problem is they'll almost certainly call our bluff, keep doing what they want, and have the threat fall through.

436 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:04:20pm

re: #435 windsagio

oh wait, they're already calling our bluff. My bad.

437 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:04:54pm

re: #434 Killgore Trout

I don't predict any outrage over this. The Neocon thing is well over with and the Birch Society is back. Anyone still on the right at this point is comfortable with this. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Alex Jones Speaking at Republican events soon or writing for sites like Townhall or WND. Rush Limbaugh linked to Alex Jones recently too. The sigma is pretty much gone.

Right. I don't predict any outrage about this either. The interesting part will be watching as Alex Jones becomes mainstreamed into the Drudge Report audience and we know who they are. I was predicting more appearances by Mr. Jones to other right-wing venues beyond what we've already seen with Rush Limbaugh, and "Judge" Napolitano. This will only add another layer of craziness for the coming months.

438 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:05:19pm

The Paulians are thrilled....
Drudge Report now includes Infowars link
Now in the lower left column, alphabetically just three links below "Human Events" and two up from "Jerusalem Post", neo-cons and other frequent Drudgies can easily find an on-ramp to, what many are becoming forced to concede, is such a persuasive gathering of news and analysis, that at least Drudge has the decency to show them this recognition.

I'm going to wait a while to send him an email, so that I can link this thread, and thank him for his choice.

If you want to write directly, you can do that at: (redacted -ed)

If you want to be part of this thread, he may read it if he opens the link.

439 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:06:25pm

re: #404 prairiefire

OK, then. More things I did not know. I don't approve of that.
Nobody biting on my King Abdullah making eyes at me" line?
True story, happened at the international college I went to England. He was there visiting the Jordanian Ambassador to the Court of Saint James's son who was attending my school.
A couple days later some guy friends told me about his visit to the school, pulling up in limos, security guards. I was like "that short guy?"
Anywhoo...

That cute "short guy" just happens to be squatting on The Palestinian Homeland (which was formerly the Juice Homeland) until his granddaddy got it for his very own kingdom to rule over.

A whole bunch of ethnic cleansing also went on in order for Abdullah and his daddy and his granddaddy to have their very own kingdom to rule over.

He should give it to the Palestinians and go play Evony. I'm sure he has enough cash to buy up the biggest online kingdom.

On second thought, maybe the Saudi caravan robber gang should give up their "kingdom" to the Hashemite tribe, and go play Evony.

440 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:06:33pm

Creationism vs Evolution

There is a poll!

Born Again Christian Stephen Baldwin vs Atheist Richard Dawkins

Stephen Baldwin recently posed an interesting point against Evolution on Celebrity Big Brother UK 2010. So what would Richard Dawkins say in defence of Evolution? Lets find out.

441 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:06:56pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are thrilled...
Drudge Report now includes Infowars link
Now in the lower left column, alphabetically just three links below "Human Events" and two up from "Jerusalem Post", neo-cons and other frequent Drudgies can easily find an on-ramp to, what many are becoming forced to concede, is such a persuasive gathering of news and analysis, that at least Drudge has the decency to show them this recognition.

I'm going to wait a while to send him an email, so that I can link this thread, and thank him for his choice.

If you want to write directly, you can do that at: (redacted -ed)

If you want to be part of this thread, he may read it if he opens the link.

And so it begins. Mark it down on the calendar.

442 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:07:13pm

re: #440 Racer X

lol thats not a very fair fight.

443 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:07:13pm

re: #435 windsagio

what WILL happen is that we'll keep doing exactly what we've been doing since the beginning of the Cold War.

What I wish would happen is that we started seeing results (either in standard of living or practical gain for the US) for the aid we give. As it is, we give the aid, and most of the nations in question give us the finger if the subject is actually important to them... And also seeing that 'standard of living' aid being appropriated in a reasonable way.

Pissing in the wind I know. But thats what I think would be 'right'.

To come full circle, us threatening to withhold aid from Israel over the peace process is exactly what we should be doing, since we're giving them the damn money anyways. The problem is they'll almost certainly call our bluff, keep doing what they want, and have the threat fall through.

OK, then you have made decision not to support Israel. It is your decision & I respect it. I simply do not agree. Now that was easy.

444 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:07:42pm

re: #435 windsagio

The Israelis have been saying for months that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions before they even agree to a meeting. Benjamin Netanyahu has correctly refused to give the Palestinians rewards just for sitting down at the table. To do so is to continue to allow the them to bargin in bad faith. Its past time the Palis made a real concession.

445 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:08:00pm

re: #412 Decatur Deb

The British have been reassigning kingdoms, including my ancestral island, for lo these many centuries. Among other pecadillos, they invented Iraq. Abdullah would not be king if his father had not been king...

Ever hear of Winston's Hiccup? Allegedly, that notch in the eastern border or Jordan came about when the British were drawing the arabian national boundaries after a long lunch.

446 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #402 Gus 802

Drudge links to Infowars! LOL

sunsabitches... this is getting ridiculous. Why doesn't he link Lew Rockwell and Lyndon Larouche while the fuck he's at it?

447 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:09:32pm

re: #443 brookly red

It was weirdly!


I was hoping tho' to hear a good argument for the support. I keep getting presented with truisms.


/and believe me I'm shy to get into this. Its a very pro-Israel room, and things can quickly go bad directions on this particular subject.

448 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:10:04pm

re: #442 windsagio

lol thats not a very fair fight.

No, it isn't. Stephen Baldwin is a better-than-competent actor, but his is no scientist. Dawkins likely wiped the floor with him.

449 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:10:07pm

re: #444 Dark_Falcon

I'm begging you, please don't get me started arguing with the crowd about Israel policy! This discussion with brookly (altho interesting and fun) is close enough to armageddon for my tastes >>

450 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:10:21pm

re: #444 Dark_Falcon

The Israelis have been saying for months that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions before they even agree to a meeting. Benjamin Netanyahu has correctly refused to give the Palestinians rewards just for sitting down at the table. To do so is to continue to allow the them to bargin in bad faith. Its past time the Palis made a real concession.

The Israelis have been saying for months decades that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions before they even agree to a meeting.

ahem, fuck them.

451 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:10:28pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

Here was the Drudge Twitter announcement.

And it looks like Infowars is now reciprocating: Drudge: Big Sis Wants to See Under Your Clothes @ Infowars.

452 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:10:51pm

re: #446 Thanos

sunsabitches... this is getting ridiculous. Why doesn't he link Lew Rockwell and Lyndon Larouche while the fuck he's at it?

Be patient. //

453 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:11:32pm

re: #450 brookly red

The Israelis have been saying for months decades that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions unconditional surrender before they even agree to a meeting.

ahem, fuck them.

What you said.

454 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:11:52pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

Drudge didn't use to feel as partisan, as it does now.
I wonder what caused the shift?
It's NOT on my "must reads" anymore.
I mean, the man has Perez Hilton on his blog roll.
Perez is funny, if you want to look at Hollywood trash, with nastily defaced photographs. It's NOT news.

455 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:13:03pm

re: #449 windsagio

I'm begging you, please don't get me started arguing with the crowd about Israel policy! This discussion with brookly (altho interesting and fun) is close enough to armageddon for my tastes >>

Because you will loose... plain and simple.

456 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:13:27pm

re: #447 windsagio

It was weirdly!

I was hoping tho' to hear a good argument for the support. I keep getting presented with truisms.

/and believe me I'm shy to get into this. Its a very pro-Israel room, and things can quickly go bad directions on this particular subject.

You don't want debate you have your opinion, you fool no one except maybe yourself. I respectfully decline further comment on the subject.

457 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:14:25pm

re: #455 Walter L. Newton

because even my usual allies on here wouldn't be on my side about it, and I enjoy this blog too much to alienate everyone... regardless of how it ended.


With that in mind, I'm gonna go play Rock Band instead.

458 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:15:09pm

re: #439 Alouette

Well, ahem, I didn't describe him as cute. Just was surprised that to my then 20 year old eyes, he didn't look like someone who was royalty. I don't think he was in direct line for the throne at that time either.
Thanks for the information. All stuff I was not aware of. I have read an article (maybe in Vanity Fair) that since his bride is of Palestinian lineage, that somehow gives him points.
I always have hopes that exposure to Western culture and ideals will help the Middle East get to modernization. Sorry to say, the undiebomber and 9-11 terrorists all were, and it didn't make a bit of difference.

459 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:16:02pm

re: #449 windsagio

I'm begging you, please don't get me started arguing with the crowd about Israel policy! This discussion with brookly (altho interesting and fun) is close enough to armageddon for my tastes >>

Aw, what's wrong wind, you skeered?

460 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:16:08pm

re: #408 windsagio

alot of people would disagree with your concept of communism as always forcibly violent. You're confusing real-life political movements/governments with an unworkable social ideal. Funnily the social rules shown in the New Testament aren't really workable for large groups or societies either!

That doesn't keep people from being Christian of course.

The relevant verse says they agreed to hold all things in common. Notice the lack of coercion, or the presence of any plan of government beyond a small community.

And it isn't me, or people like me, that confused "real-life political movements/governments with an unworkable social ideal". It was people on the Left side of the street who sighed--or not--over the victims of each new communist regime, and then went on hoping that the next one would finally be the utopia they were hoping for.

461 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:17:05pm

re: #445 The Sanity Inspector

Ever hear of Winston's Hiccup? Allegedly, that notch in the eastern border or Jordan came about when the British were drawing the arabian national boundaries after a long lunch.

Yes--redrawing borders used to be a whimsical European parlor game, and millions have died to rationalize them. Makes you want to limit governments to the sound of the town clock (Campenellismo).

462 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:17:12pm

re: #457 windsagio

because even my usual allies on here wouldn't be on my side about it, and I enjoy this blog too much to alienate everyone... regardless of how it ended.

With that in mind, I'm gonna go play Rock Band instead.

Just state your case. I promise you a fair hearing and that I will not downding the comment you use to state your case.

463 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:17:13pm

re: #457 windsagio

because even my usual allies on here wouldn't be on my side about it, and I enjoy this blog too much to alienate everyone... regardless of how it ended. With that in mind, I'm gonna go play Rock Band instead.

And of course, you seem to have no inkling of what your usual allies may have to say about support or lack of support on the subject of Israel since you don't want to hear it.

Close minded I would think.

And, makes me wonder how much you really value your "usual allies" on here, or is it just a matter of using them when they agree with you?

Inquiring minds want to know.

464 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:17:40pm

re: #452 Gus 802

Be patient. //

Have you seen this yet? *warning Al Jazeera video* but everything I saw in this report is factual, and much of it I've seen...

nativists, Nazis, Tea, and Sarah
[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

465 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:18:50pm

re: #457 windsagio

because even my usual allies on here wouldn't be on my side about it, and I enjoy this blog too much to alienate everyone... regardless of how it ended.

With that in mind, I'm gonna go play Rock Band instead.

You don't have to worry. Even the staunchest defenders of Israel here will say that not all criticism of Israel is perforce antisemitism, I think.

Anyway, it's always permissible to refuse to discuss a topic where you know your opinions won't be popular. I essentially had a self-imposed embargo on discussing civil liberties issues when I first got here. Now the commentariat has changed significantly, so it's not as tough a room for that.

466 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:20:18pm

re: #454 Floral Giraffe

Drudge didn't use to feel as partisan, as it does now.
I wonder what caused the shift?

Andrew Breitbart is part owner of Drudge report now. I suspect that has a lot to do with it. Drudge is probably plenty crazy on his own now. A lot of people just lost their minds after the election.

467 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:21:31pm

re: #466 Killgore Trout

Isn't Drudge Agoraphobic?

468 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:21:34pm

re: #460 The Sanity Inspector

The relevant verse says they agreed to hold all things in common. Notice the lack of coercion, or the presence of any plan of government beyond a small community.

And it isn't me, or people like me, that confused "real-life political movements/governments with an unworkable social ideal". It was people on the Left side of the street who sighed--or not--over the victims of each new communist regime, and then went on hoping that the next one would finally be the utopia they were hoping for.

The left misuse the Greek text's for their own purpose, trying to co-opt concepts in the early first century with their visions of utopia. Which in the least is vain. The politics, the religious and social aspects of the times (first century) is what crafted early Christianity, not some yet undiscovered philosophy penned during the late 1800's.

469 captdiggs  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:21:50pm

re: #450 brookly red

The Israelis have been saying for months decades that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions before they even agree to a meeting.

ahem, fuck them.

Obama handed the Pals the reason to do nothing on a silver platter.
Once Obama decided that the "settlements" were the problem ( Vs. arab intolerance for a non muslim state in the region) and entered into a public confrontation with Israel about that, the arabs all took their cue.
It was a catastrophic mistake and it was highly predictable.

470 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:23:00pm

AIDS Virus Created by the U.S.

The elite want to reduce the earths population to 500 million. Aids has been used as weapon against us.

The AIDS virus was created by the United States government at Fort Dietrich in Maryland, a biological warfare laboratory in building number A550 in the P4 lab. The sum of US $10m was requested by the Defense Department to build the lab under the House of Representatives Bill number H.R. 15090 in the 91st Congress in 1970.7

The World Health Organization used smallpox vaccine as their vicious vehicle to spread the AIDS virus and the geographic areas chosen were Uganda and other African countries, Haiti, Brazil and Japan.

Right.

471 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:23:02pm

re: #464 Thanos

Have you seen this yet? *warning Al Jazeera video* but everything I saw in this report is factual, and much of it I've seen...

nativists, Nazis, Tea, and Sarah
[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

Looks good, thanks. Including your write-up. These are perilous times.

472 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:23:21pm

I also think the rise of Alex Jones has a lot to do with conservatives turning on Bush after the election. The Tea Parties hate him for saving the economy with TARP and stimulus spending. Last week Glenn Beck lumped Bush in with the Bilderbergs as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the US with the Cloward Piven strategy.

473 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:24:57pm

re: #461 Decatur Deb

Yes--redrawing borders used to be a whimsical European parlor game, and millions have died to rationalize them. Makes you want to limit governments to the sound of the town clock (Campenellismo).

The consequences have been especially sad in Africa. Kenya and much of Tanzania ought to be one country, and Sudan ought to be two countries. The resulting tribal frictions quite trumped whatever benefits English common law would otherwise have provided.

474 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:25:17pm

re: #470 Racer X

AIDS Virus Created by the U.S.

[Video]Right.

And here we see Islamism mixed in with a Black Power conspiracy theory, resulting in Bad Craziness of an extremely high toxicity.

475 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:25:25pm

re: #472 Killgore Trout

I also think the rise of Alex Jones has a lot to do with conservatives turning on Bush after the election. The Tea Parties hate him for saving the economy with TARP and stimulus spending. Last week Glenn Beck lumped Bush in with the Bilderbergs as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the US with the Cloward Piven strategy.

People on the right were already distancing themselves from Bush before the election, though, trotting out the 'he's not really a conservative' line. Conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed, according to some.

Also-- btw, isn't Brietbart's association with Drudge not that recent? A couple of years maybe?

476 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:26:11pm

re: #464 Thanos

Have you seen this yet? *warning Al Jazeera video* but everything I saw in this report is factual, and much of it I've seen...

nativists, Nazis, Tea, and Sarah
[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

Thanks for looking into that. I saw the video earlier but didn't watch because it's Al Jazeera. Maybe I'll give it a look.

477 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:26:25pm

re: #472 Killgore Trout

I also think the rise of Alex Jones has a lot to do with conservatives turning on Bush after the election. The Tea Parties hate him for saving the economy with TARP and stimulus spending. Last week Glenn Beck lumped Bush in with the Bilderbergs as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the US with the Cloward Piven strategy.

What's so ridiculously funny about this is that the same Religious Right/Neoconfederate/Paleo coalition that gave us Bush now is trying to rebrand him as a moderate.... Dick Armey, Tom Delay, two faces of the same political machine.

/rebranding! They'll never figure us out...

478 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:26:33pm

re: #473 The Sanity Inspector

The consequences have been especially sad in Africa. Kenya and much of Tanzania ought to be one country, and Sudan ought to be two countries. The resulting tribal frictions quite trumped whatever benefits English common law would otherwise have provided.

Don't forget Rwanda. The Hutu/Tutsi distinction was essentially imposed by Europeans, I thought, who also set up the Tutsi as a 'ruling class'.

479 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:26:55pm

re: #469 captdiggs

Obama handed the Pals the reason to do nothing on a silver platter.
Once Obama decided that the "settlements" were the problem ( Vs. arab intolerance for a non muslim state in the region) and entered into a public confrontation with Israel about that, the arabs all took their cue.
It was a catastrophic mistake and it was highly predictable.

yes , I was not going to go to O but yes he has f'ed this up and it was highly predictable...

480 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:27:16pm

re: #472 Killgore Trout

I also think the rise of Alex Jones has a lot to do with conservatives turning on Bush after the election. The Tea Parties hate him for saving the economy with TARP and stimulus spending. Last week Glenn Beck lumped Bush in with the Bilderbergs as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the US with the Cloward Piven strategy.

Well, I'm glad to hear that Bush did something right, saving the economy with TARP money and stimulus spending. That seems like a strange thing to admit considering the left is blaming all the problems of the economy on Bush.

Bush must be an expert magician, fooling everyone, making it appear that he saved and destroyed all at the same time.

Perspective, it's and amazing point of view.

481 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:27:25pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

Thanks for looking into that. I saw the video earlier but didn't watch because it's Al Jazeera. Maybe I'll give it a look.

You need to watch it

482 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:27:28pm

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

And here we see Islamism mixed in with a Black Power conspiracy theory, resulting in Bad Craziness of an extremely high toxicity.

People will believe any stupid shit they find on the internets.

You humans are so screwed.

483 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:28:06pm

re: #464 Thanos

I noted that it was an Al Jazeera production when linked earlier on LGF. Appreciate the research you've done, with respect to its content.

484 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:29:35pm

re: #483 abolitionist

I noted that it was an Al Jazeera production when linked earlier on LGF. Appreciate the research you've done, with respect to its content.

It wasn't a sole effort actually - much of what you will see in that vid has been confirmed by many lizards like KT and Gus in the past, as well as myself.

485 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:29:37pm

re: #481 Thanos

You need to watch it

I wouldn't watch anything on Al Jazeera, I wouldn't even appear on Al Jazeera. :)

486 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:30:19pm

re: #470 Racer X

AIDS Virus Created by the U.S.


[Video]Right.

Who is this guy? What org? Note he identifies "Ft. Mckinley"--no such post.
The text corrects to Detrick, but spells it wrong.

487 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:31:37pm

re: #465 iceweasel

May I have a Jimmah update?
I've been in & out today, and hope he got good news?

488 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:32:33pm

re: #486 Decatur Deb

Who is this guy? What org? Note he identifies "Ft. Mckinley"--no such post.
The text corrects to Detrick, but spells it wrong.

He looks familiar like that guy who was taped at the ISNA conference at UCLA...

489 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:32:50pm

re: #481 Thanos

You need to watch it

Thanks, watching now.

490 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:33:24pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

Thanks for looking into that. I saw the video earlier but didn't watch because it's Al Jazeera. Maybe I'll give it a look.

It's not exactly an Al Jazeera film. The film is by Rick Rowley and Jacquie Soohen. They both liberals/left.

For the others if you expect to hear or see anything regarding extremist groups like this from anything other than liberals and leftists you're going to be waiting a ling time.

I'm still waiting for the right-wing blogs to call out those groups and individuals that have been mentioned by Charles.

491 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:33:25pm

re: #485 Walter L. Newton

I wouldn't watch anything on Al Jazeera, I wouldn't even appear on Al Jazeera. :)

I won't even type A_ J_____

492 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:34:05pm

re: #487 Floral Giraffe

May I have a Jimmah update?
I've been in & out today, and hope he got good news?

Hey cutie! Thanks for asking!
Yes-- he did break his upper arm, but doesn't need a cast, just a sling. the torn rotator cuff will take longer to heal. He'll need physiotherapy.
He's not really in much pain though, and does have more movement.

Also, he has made some changes to his work situation, so he won't have to be physically present in Scotland as much-- which means he can come over to the US for longer, to wait for my visa with me. Yay!

493 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:34:14pm

re: #491 brookly red

I won't even type A_ J___

Spit!

494 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:35:36pm

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

No, it isn't. Stephen Baldwin is a better-than-competent actor, but his is no scientist. Dawkins likely wiped the floor with him.

Baldwin was trotting out level 1 creationist idiocy...there's no reason why a reasonably well educated child shouldn't have been able to wipe the floor with him, never mind Dawkins.

495 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:36:51pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

Thanks for looking into that. I saw the video earlier but didn't watch because it's Al Jazeera. Maybe I'll give it a look.

Al-Jazeera is starting to win respect from The Smart Kids, which is a warning sign for me. If they're praising AJ for its "excellent Middle Eastern coverage", what does that say about those people's attitudes' towards Israel?

496 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:37:11pm

re: #491 brookly red

I won't even type A_ J___

It was a joke. I was on a AJ panel during the Democratic Convention, in regards to economic issues. Three of us. We watched Bill Clintons speech on the economy and then the AJ host went around the table and asked us questions about the speech and the US economy in general. I didn't answer the way he like. I very liberal friend got me on the panel. Big mistake on her part.

Funniest part about the broadcast, they were set up in a bar, we were at a bar table and there were Coors and other product placement tri-folds and stuff like that all around.

497 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:37:57pm

re: #492 iceweasel

Hey cutie! Thanks for asking!
Yes-- he did break his upper arm, but doesn't need a cast, just a sling. the torn rotator cuff will take longer to heal. He'll need physiotherapy.
He's not really in much pain though, and does have more movement.

Also, he has made some changes to his work situation, so he won't have to be physically present in Scotland as much-- which means he can come over to the US for longer, to wait for my visa with me. Yay!

Break his upper arm. I thought you would have got over the rough stuff before the honeymoon?

498 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:38:50pm

re: #495 The Sanity Inspector

Al-Jazeera is starting to win respect from The Smart Kids, which is a warning sign for me. If they're praising AJ for its "excellent Middle Eastern coverage", what does that say about those people's attitudes' towards Israel?

See up thread.

499 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:39:30pm

re: #494 Jimmah

Baldwin was trotting out level 1 creationist idiocy...there's no reason why a reasonably well educated child shouldn't have been able to wipe the floor with him, never mind Dawkins.

I saw the answer Dawkins gave. He saw off Baldwin's query in sound fashion. He pointed out that Humans did not evolve from Chimpanzees. Instead, both evolved from a common ancestor. A good, well, supported answer leads to a solid victory. It always pays to be rock solid on the fundamentals, and Dawkins has them down firm.

500 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:40:14pm

re: #486 Decatur Deb

Who is this guy? What org? Note he identifies "Ft. Mckinley"--no such post.
The text corrects to Detrick, but spells it wrong.

I didn't click through to the video, but from the frame still I think it's Khalid Yasin. An American Muslim firebrand imam, who's set up shop in England

501 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:40:44pm

re: #496 Walter L. Newton

It was a joke. I was on a AJ panel during the Democratic Convention, in regards to economic issues. Three of us. We watched Bill Clintons speech on the economy and then the AJ host went around the table and asked us questions about the speech and the US economy in general. I didn't answer the way he like. I very liberal friend got me on the panel. Big mistake on her part.

Funniest part about the broadcast, they were set up in a bar, we were at a bar table and there were Coors and other product placement tri-folds and stuff like that all around.

no joke to me...

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:40:56pm

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

And here we see Islamism mixed in with a Black Power conspiracy theory, resulting in Bad Craziness of an extremely high toxicity.

These things never die. They just sail on like ghost ships. There are stil Soviet propaganda hoaxes that pop up here and there, even though the folks who seeded them no longer need them for anything.

503 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:41:14pm

re: #495 The Sanity Inspector

Al-Jazeera is starting to win respect from The Smart Kids, which is a warning sign for me. If they're praising AJ for its "excellent Middle Eastern coverage", what does that say about those people's attitudes' towards Israel?

Although the report may be accurate (which it appears to be so far) Al Jazeera is highlighting this because it makes America look bad. I don't have much doubt about that.

504 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:41:38pm

Off to bed... got 5 days of furniture schlepping coming up... save the planet... buy thrift store merchandize... stay green.

505 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:42:27pm

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

Break his upper arm. I thought you would have got over the rough stuff before the honeymoon?

It wasn't iceweasel but this bastard that did the damage - Image: _47061196_greatbritainjpg.jpg

Actually quite sore when you hit it hard enough.

506 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:42:34pm

re: #495 The Sanity Inspector

Al-Jazeera is starting to win respect from The Smart Kids, which is a warning sign for me. If they're praising AJ for its "excellent Middle Eastern coverage", what does that say about those people's attitudes' towards Israel?

It's not an Al Jazeera film. It's by Rick Rowley and Jacquie Soohen and made by Big Noise Films. Granted, Big Noise did make a film about Gaza but it becomes a little more nuanced in this case because the film in question is anti-neo-Nazi.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:42:35pm

re: #492 iceweasel

Hey cutie! Thanks for asking!
Yes-- he did break his upper arm, but doesn't need a cast, just a sling. the torn rotator cuff will take longer to heal. He'll need physiotherapy.
He's not really in much pain though, and does have more movement.

Also, he has made some changes to his work situation, so he won't have to be physically present in Scotland as much-- which means he can come over to the US for longer, to wait for my visa with me. Yay!

Yowza.

Well, as long as he isn't in pain, and it'll heal...

Give him our best.

508 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:43:02pm

re: #503 Killgore Trout

Although the report may be accurate (which it appears to be so far) Al Jazeera is highlighting this because it makes America look bad. I don't have much doubt about that.

Absolutely correct, it's the same thing Russia Today does.

509 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:43:38pm

re: #505 Jimmah

Well, take care of yourself.

Really, I'm to bed now.

510 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:43:56pm

re: #505 Jimmah

It wasn't iceweasel but this bastard that did the damage - [Link: newsimg.bbc.co.uk...]

Actually quite sore when you hit it hard enough.

Albion is tough, no two ways about it. But it also still produces tough men, with you standing as an example.

511 brookly red  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:43:58pm

re: #504 Walter L. Newton

Off to bed... got 5 days of furniture schlepping coming up... save the planet... buy thrift store merchandize... stay green.

Algore is on his way!... no not really would never happen...

512 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:44:12pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Well, take care of yourself.

Really, I'm to bed now.

Night Walter. Good luck at work!

513 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:46:20pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

These things never die. They just sail on like ghost ships. There are stil Soviet propaganda hoaxes that pop up here and there, even though the folks who seeded them no longer need them for anything.

This particular theme (inoculation=genocide) has reversed gains against a couple mankiller diseases in Africa. Like you said, it started in the Cold War, but has been dovetailed neatly into jihad. Doing that sort of thing cynically is conduct unbecoming a mammal.

514 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:47:40pm

re: #503 Killgore Trout

Although the report may be accurate (which it appears to be so far) Al Jazeera is highlighting this because it makes America look bad. I don't have much doubt about that.

It was made by Big Noise Films not Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera was just the only one to air it thus far. But, they are a left wing film group.

Heck, I just heard them say "the Tea Party movement isn't racist but the racism follows it."

515 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:49:39pm

re: #510 Dark_Falcon

Albion is tough, no two ways about it. But it also still produces tough men, with you standing as an example.


We have not journeyed across the centuries, across the oceans, across the prairies because we were made of sugar-candy.
-- Winston Churchill

516 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:49:47pm

re: #492 iceweasel

Thank you.
Please do look for running shoes with CLEATS when he comes to visit.
Sorry he's hurting.
Glad it's diagnosed & has a plan to get well.
Have you/he thought about seeing a sports medicine specialist?
Sometimes they are really worth it.

517 abolitionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:49:57pm

re: #503 Killgore Trout

Although the report may be accurate (which it appears to be so far) Al Jazeera is highlighting this because it makes America look bad. I don't have much doubt about that.

Ding ding ding.

518 really grumpy big dog johnson  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:50:49pm

re: #91 wozzablog

*sigh*

Perishing cold by London standards - snow is only just melting.

But, i'm much more fond of coldwinters than hot summers - so i don't complain.

Are you telling me that where you live the snow actually melts?

Wow!

519 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:51:15pm

re: #516 Floral Giraffe

Thank you.
Please do look for running shoes with CLEATS when he comes to visit.
Sorry he's hurting.
Glad it's diagnosed & has a plan to get well.
Have you/he thought about seeing a sports medicine specialist?
Sometimes they are really worth it.

Hmm, that's an excellent idea-- I'll look into it! Thanks again!

520 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:51:27pm

re: #515 The Sanity Inspector


We have not journeyed across the centuries, across the oceans, across the prairies because we were made of sugar-candy. We did it because we had the Scots and Irish to clear the way and carry our crap.
-- Winston Churchill

Augmented that for you.

521 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:51:41pm

re: #505 Jimmah

It wasn't iceweasel but this bastard that did the damage - [Link: newsimg.bbc.co.uk...]

Actually quite sore when you hit it hard enough.

Be well jimmah...
And get well soon.. I can beat anybodies injuries here...
Knees, ankles, Arms, Hell I had 67 stitches to my left hand sliding into a bench in High School...The worst pain was my left knee..I could stand the pain..The weight of a sheet on my leg was unbearable...

522 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:52:03pm

re: #464 Thanos

Thanks for posting that video, I hope it gets a wide audience.
As to Al Jazeera's motives, it only makes a minority of Americans look bad, but in doing so provides a worthwhile warning.

523 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:52:48pm

re: #518 really grumpy big dog johnson

Are you telling me that where you live the snow actually melts?

Wow!

It melts here in Chicago too. Just not till February, and the huge piles will still have remnants in April.

524 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:53:26pm

re: #487 Floral Giraffe

May I have a Jimmah update?
I've been in & out today, and hope he got good news?

Thanks for asking after me, FG :) I'm glad I avoided having to have a cast, or 'stookie' as we call it here. Definitely seems to be on the mend now, glad to say. I think a sturdy pair of crampons might be in order for next winter ;-)

525 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:54:34pm

re: #516 Floral Giraffe

Thank you.
Please do look for running shoes with CLEATS when he comes to visit.
Sorry he's hurting.
Glad it's diagnosed & has a plan to get well.
Have you/he thought about seeing a sports medicine specialist?
Sometimes they are really worth it.

You can also buy clip-on ice cleats for your regular shoes.

526 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:55:17pm

re: #513 Decatur Deb

conduct unbecoming a mammal.

Very good phrase. I like that.

527 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:57:05pm

re: #519 iceweasel

In my limited experience, the sports guys are more about getting healed PROPERLY than fast. Less drugs, less invasive, unless that's what is called for. Then it's like, "doing it tomorrow".
They really are worth the extra cost. You can't BUY a new shoulder. And if it doesn't get fixed right the first time. Well, Jimmah might be able to forecast snow for the rest of his life!

528 Steve  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:57:10pm

re: #444 Dark_Falcon

The Israelis have been saying for months that they are willing to talk. The Pali response is to demand concessions before they even agree to a meeting. Benjamin Netanyahu has correctly refused to give the Palestinians rewards just for sitting down at the table. To do so is to continue to allow the them to bargin in bad faith. Its past time the Palis made a real concession.

The Palis will never make real concessions unless they get everything they want!

529 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:58:18pm

Earlier I had a brain fart and couldn't remember Lyndon Larouche's name so I googled "Anti Semite Presidential Candidate". Of course Pat Buchanan came up first and Lyndon Larouche was fourth or so in the search, which was really all I needed.

However this link came up as well, which got me to thinking that there isn't much difference between the arab hate groups agitprop and that of Alex Jones.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

Scroll down there are quite a few cartoons here.

530 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:58:27pm

re: #505 Jimmah

It wasn't iceweasel but this bastard that did the damage - [Link: newsimg.bbc.co.uk...]

Actually quite sore when you hit it hard enough.

icebritain?

531 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 7:58:45pm

re: #524 Jimmah

A "stookie" OK, that's just weird. Even for a Scot!
Glad you saw the Doctor & have a plan!

532 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:00:32pm

re: #510 Dark_Falcon

Albion is tough, no two ways about it. But it also still produces tough men, with you standing as an example.

Thanks DF - (raises a glass for you and your countrymen/women)

533 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:04:40pm

re: #527 Floral Giraffe

In my limited experience, the sports guys are more about getting healed PROPERLY than fast. Less drugs, less invasive, unless that's what is called for. Then it's like, "doing it tomorrow".
They really are worth the extra cost. You can't BUY a new shoulder. And if it doesn't get fixed right the first time. Well, Jimmah might be able to forecast snow for the rest of his life!

Excellent points FG. Especially given where he (we) live there. Lots of damp, lots of rain, fog-- it could be a year round problem for him if not treated properly.

534 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:04:59pm

Back on topic for a moment. Those are certainly some sordid doings Charles has presented us. However, I'm not ready to replace my Stand With Denmark banner with a Coexist one yet. Expatriate journalist Bruce Bawer, who lives in Scandinavia and speaks several northern European languages fluently, has this to say about the situation in the Netherlands, which may easily apply to that in Denmark:

...young members of [...] Muslim communities have been responsible for frighteningly rapid increases in the number of rapes, gay-bashings, and other actions that are influenced by their religion’s teachings about homosexuality, the oppression of women, and so on. There is not one Muslim in the Netherlands who needs to be accompanied by bodyguards around the clock because he has chosen to criticize Western values – but more and more Dutch people who have criticized Islam do live under such conditions.

535 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:05:05pm

re: #528 Steve

The Palis will never make real concessions unless they get everything they want!

Even then they likely wouldn't. The onlything to do for now is keep them at arms length until they decide to actually negotiate in good faith, and that may never happen.

536 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:05:50pm

re: #525 The Sanity Inspector

You can also buy clip-on ice cleats for your regular shoes.

The best shoes for walking on Ice are those with gum soles like the old Adidas tobacco variety. I wore shoes like these through fifteen winters in Fairbanks (I bought one size too large and wore them with two pairs of wool socks) Click on the picture of the sole to see the tread.
[Link: www.trainerstation.com...]

537 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:05:54pm

re: #521 HoosierHoops

Be well jimmah...
And get well soon.. I can beat anybodies injuries here...
Knees, ankles, Arms, Hell I had 67 stitches to my left hand sliding into a bench in High School...The worst pain was my left knee..I could stand the pain..The weight of a sheet on my leg was unbearable...

Ah - see you sports guys get all the really horrific stuff - one reason why I've always avoided that activity! This is actually my first (and hopefully last) broken bone.

538 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:06:16pm

Don't know how many of you saw this from yesterday, but I just came across itL

Hawaii can't afford Congressional election

Cash-strapped Hawaii can't afford to pay for an election to replace a congressman who is planning to step down next month to run for governor, potentially leaving 600,000 urban Honolulu residents without representation in Washington.

Budget cuts have left the state Office of Elections with about $5,000 to last until July, with a special election costing nearly $1 million, interim Chief Elections Officer Scott Nago said.

Until the state finds money or this fall's regularly scheduled elections occur, one of Hawaii's two seats in the House of Representatives will remain vacant.

Savor the irony...

539 really grumpy big dog johnson  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:07:42pm

re: #272 MandyManners

Oh, go piss up a rope.

There've always been perfectly valid reasons for why I like you...

540 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:08:22pm

re: #527 Floral Giraffe

In my limited experience, the sports guys are more about getting healed PROPERLY than fast. Less drugs, less invasive, unless that's what is called for. Then it's like, "doing it tomorrow".
They really are worth the extra cost. You can't BUY a new shoulder. And if it doesn't get fixed right the first time. Well, Jimmah might be able to forecast snow for the rest of his life!


Hey my friend...Sports guys go for the quick fix....There is pain to this day...
My left knee still hurts and the MLC tendon never seems to heal

541 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:08:28pm

re: #531 Floral Giraffe

A "stookie" OK, that's just weird. Even for a Scot!
Glad you saw the Doctor & have a plan!

Heh. I love all these weird Scottish words....Jimmah's sister just accused him of 'going American' for using the word 'awesome', btw. I laughed!

542 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:09:05pm

re: #521 HoosierHoops

I am proud to be a huge, gigantic wuss.

Never played sports very hard.

No broken bones, no sprains. Few (I think 3) stitches from a cyst when I was 8.

Someone gave me a really hard pinch once....

543 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:11:17pm

re: #534 The Sanity Inspector

C.P.D.

Co-existing Prius Driver

I am sooo trying to get that anagram started...

544 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:12:10pm

re: #541 iceweasel

LOL! But they have to be EXPLAINED! It's teh hard!
"stookies", you must admit, is a funny word!

545 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:12:21pm

re: #529 Thanos

I just checked the Stormfront thread about the video you posted.....

I'm a white guy with a gun. I surported RP, I go to tea party meetings, and I love my country, but hate my government. Gearing up for a fight, shoot I've been like that for 65 years now. Just more BS from the BS machine. I voted for Wallace and I am proud of it. God Bless


....

They take notice Folks are not really phased anymore being called racist, radical, extremist, as these jews and their tools spit on Our Heritage and give away our lands.

Imagery that would once shy some folks away abit from their own Kindred is becoming less of an issue that’s good. The common denominator and bottom line is Race no getting around it.

White Pride World Wide


....

The Zionists here are deathly afraid of whites organizing to both defend themselves and survive the dark ages that are coming to the U.S. Survivalists stand in the way of their plan to render everyone wards of the state literally, if not little better than Borg drones. They already regard the white population as an enemy to be eliminated or rendered powerless and at their mercy. It's only a matter of when, not if the U.S. government will send the military against them to kill them and imprison millions of others they regard as sympathizers. Before they can do that, they have to paint them as a threat to the country, just as they made Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians into a threat to be wiped out.
546 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:14:54pm

re: #544 Floral Giraffe

LOL! But they have to be EXPLAINED! It's teh hard!
"stookies", you must admit, is a funny word!

Hilarious! I must get him to teach me more!

BTW, major thanks to you and SFZ for helping nag him to go to the doctor. He'd been promising he would but you guys really helped make it happen, i think!

547 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:14:58pm

re: #545 Killgore Trout

Yep, it's getting really ugly. Really really ugly. If I weren't an atheist I would pray for our president.

548 SteveC  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:15:31pm

re: #542 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am proud to be a huge, gigantic wuss.

It all depends on what it is. I've been through three heart surgeries. They keep me awake when they change my pacemaker, because the docs are afraid that I could be easily oversedated. (They do give me enough Happy Juice to make me higher than a kite, and let me have free refills!) All that I can deal with.

Dentist? Drill? *sobs* Please.... NOOO!

549 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:16:53pm

OT but this is interesting, from Newsweek:
The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage
Why same-sex marriage is an American value

Together with my good friend and occasional courtroom adversary David Boies, I am attempting to persuade a federal court to invalidate California's Proposition 8—the voter-approved measure that overturned California's constitutional right to marry a person of the same sex.

My involvement in this case has generated a certain degree of consternation among conservatives. How could a politically active, lifelong Republican, a veteran of the Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush administrations, challenge the "traditional" definition of marriage and press for an "activist" interpretation of the Constitution to create another "new" constitutional right?

My answer to this seeming conundrum rests on a lifetime of exposure to persons of different backgrounds, histories, viewpoints, and intrinsic characteristics, and on my rejection of what I see as superficially appealing but ultimately false perceptions about our Constitution and its protection of equality and fundamental rights.

550 Mich-again  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:17:20pm

I have never spent the night in a hospital since I was born. Visited some emergency rooms and visited family and friends who were patients, but I've been lucky enough to never need to be admitted.
All those years of full coverage health insurance wasted.. /

551 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:18:12pm

re: #547 Thanos

I'm getting pretty worried about the future of our country. If the Republicans come back to power in the state that they're in now it's going to be very bad. Republicans are bound to return to power someday, I just hope it's not before they are ready.

552 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:18:18pm

re: #550 Mich-again

I have never spent the night in a hospital since I was born. Visited some emergency rooms and visited family and friends who were patients, but I've been lucky enough to never need to be admitted.
All those years of full coverage health insurance wasted.. /

Same with me. I've visited many times but have never been an overnight patient.

553 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:18:40pm

re: #540 HoosierHoops
I think tendons never do. I have about two decades of martial arts and sparring practice. The fortunately few broken bones seem fine, it's the soft tissue injuries that came back to haunt.

554 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:18:48pm

re: #549 iceweasel

The author doesn't sound very "conservative" as that term has come to be applied in contemporary America; the writer sounds more like a classical "libertarian" wrt society.

555 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:19:07pm

re: #549 iceweasel

That's Ted Olson, whose wife died on one of the planes on 9/11. He was Boies' adversary in the 2000 election cases. They've teamed up to fight prop 8, and more power to them.

556 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:19:21pm

re: #550 Mich-again

re: #552 Dark_Falcon

Nature, in its wisdom, created you to offset Evel Knievel.

557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:21:15pm

re: #548 SteveC

Had a Valium drip once for wisdom teeth removal. Why doesn't Valium come in six-packs?

(that should make a top ten somewhere)

558 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:22:33pm

re: #554 freetoken

The author doesn't sound very "conservative" as that term has come to be applied in contemporary America; the writer sounds more like a classical "libertarian" wrt society.

He argues that it's really neither conservative or liberal but makes the conservative argument here:

Many of my fellow conservatives have an almost knee-jerk hostility toward gay marriage. This does not make sense, because same-sex unions promote the values conservatives prize. Marriage is one of the basic building blocks of our neighborhoods and our nation. At its best, it is a stable bond between two individuals who work to create a loving household and a social and economic partnership. We encourage couples to marry because the commitments they make to one another provide benefits not only to themselves but also to their families and communities. Marriage requires thinking beyond one's own needs. It transforms two individuals into a union based on shared aspirations, and in doing so establishes a formal investment in the well-being of society. The fact that individuals who happen to be gay want to share in this vital social institution is evidence that conservative ideals enjoy widespread acceptance. Conservatives should celebrate this, rather than lament it.

And ends with this:

Americans who believe in the words of the Declaration of Independence, in Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, in the 14th Amendment, and in the Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and equal dignity before the law cannot sit by while this wrong continues. This is not a conservative or liberal issue; it is an American one, and it is time that we, as Americans, embraced it.

559 SteveC  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:23:10pm

re: #557 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Had a Valium drip once for wisdom teeth removal. Why doesn't Valium come in six-packs?

Human beings aren't authorized to have that much fun!

560 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:25:23pm

re: #551 Killgore Trout

I'm getting pretty worried about the future of our country.

Well, I'm not quite there yet, if we only are concerned about the immediate future. I am concerned that continued economic malaise will fuel all sorts of reactionary sentiments, including racists and xenophobic movements.

At least down here, our local society is so mixed, and pretty much self aware of it, that I don't see the Tea Party crowd affecting SoCal politics much.

Longer term, I do think that energy, environmental, and financial problems will cause some real turmoil. Perhaps between now and 2050 something will cause even stronger reactions than 9/11 created, which no doubt was the most jarring to Americans' sense of self-security since Pearl Harbor.

I do not believe the Stormfront crowd will in the end win, just because they are too small a share of the nation as a whole. However, as I used to argue with the now banned Killian Bundy about creationism, a movement like Stormfront can cause havoc for a minority party just because those out of power usually are more desperate to gain power, than those who are in power are afraid of losing it.

561 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:25:32pm

re: #544 Floral Giraffe

LOL! But they have to be EXPLAINED! It's teh hard!
"stookies", you must admit, is a funny word!

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

562 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:25:37pm

Wearing down in Central Time. 'Nite All.

563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:26:57pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

...in bed.

564 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:27:43pm

re: #559 SteveC

Human beings aren't authorized to have that much fun!

Ugh. I don't begrudge others the use of narcotics, by I myself will never use them. I have an intense personal aversion to any intoxicant.

565 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:28:32pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

Hope you videotape her expression the first time you ask her to "lay the table."

/ = "set the table" in American english. But don't worry, there's a blog for that.

566 SteveC  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:28:38pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

re: #563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

...in bed.

No, there's a whole 'nuther language used in bed!

567 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:28:54pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

Go To Scotland

568 Van Helsing  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:29:16pm

re: #534 The Sanity Inspector

Excellent article you linked to.

569 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:29:43pm

re: #566 SteveC

No, there's a whole 'nuther language used in bed!

Loved that commercial...

"Texas. It's a whole nuther country."

570 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:31:44pm

re: #568 Van Helsing

Excellent article you linked to.

Thanks.

571 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:33:24pm

Speaking of the minority party, my respect for Sen. McCain keeps going down:

Wrong to give bomb suspect civilian rights: McCain

572 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:34:34pm

re: #459 Dark_Falcon

yes.

573 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:34:50pm

re: #561 Jimmah

WTF?
Those are words that mean things?
LOL!
'Rotsa Ruck, Ice!

574 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:36:02pm

re: #571 freetoken

Speaking of the minority party, my respect for Sen. McCain keeps going down:

Wrong to give bomb suspect civilian rights: McCain

That's not the McCain I briefly considered voting for.

575 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:37:28pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

All I can think about, when I think of iceweasel and Jimmah alone together at last, is Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving With A Pict.

576 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:37:55pm

re: #574 Conservative Moonbat

That's not the McCain I briefly considered voting for.

Agree. It is the McCain who wants to be re-elected in a state with lots of Tea Partiers. Evidenced by his colloquial term "lawyered up", etc. That is just a hot button type of phrase, meant to do one thing: convince the "true" conservatives that he is one of them.

577 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:37:56pm

re: #571 freetoken

Speaking of the minority party, my respect for Sen. McCain keeps going down:

Wrong to give bomb suspect civilian rights: McCain

And the response to Richard Reid's civilian trial was?

578 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:38:13pm

re: #572 windsagio

yes.

Well, at least that's an honest answer. I do promise that if you don't say anything outright anti-Semitic you have nothing to fear from me.

579 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:38:28pm

re: #578 Dark_Falcon

hah made you look!

580 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:39:09pm

re: #553 Rightwingconspirator

I think tendons never do. I have about two decades of martial arts and sparring practice. The fortunately few broken bones seem fine, it's the soft tissue injuries that came back to haunt.

I met Bill Walton once at an airport.. He could hardly walk..Sad really...
You know it's bad when anyone's Grandmother here could take Bill Walton ( one of the greatest Basketball players of all time) to the hole..No problem..
He just can't even walk....

581 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:39:32pm

re: #571 freetoken

re: #576 freetoken

I think McCain learned the 'wrong' lessons in 2000 and 2008, and he's decided 'to hell with it, I'm hangin' on'.

582 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:39:51pm

re: #571 freetoken

Speaking of the minority party, my respect for Sen. McCain keeps going down:

Wrong to give bomb suspect civilian rights: McCain

I've actually come to agree with him on that matter.

583 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #575 The Sanity Inspector

All I can think about, when I think of iceweasel and Jimmah alone together at last, is Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving With A Pict.


[Video]

Would they have Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast in the morning?

584 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:40:09pm

re: #577 Gus 802

And the response to Richard Reid's civilian trial was?

I think the undiebomber should have a civilian trial. It's hard to think what national security secrets would be divulged, since he was not detected or caught by the government.

585 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:40:35pm

re: #584 The Sanity Inspector

zing!

586 SteveC  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:41:37pm

re: #561 Jimmah

Boufin, mocket, bawbag, laldy, randan, hoachin', and most topically - 'tackety boots' - iceweasel is going to have to learn these and many more...:)

When I start makin´ love
I don´t just make love...
I be hoachin'
That´s what I be doin´, huh
I be hoachin'

587 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:41:48pm

re: #582 Dark_Falcon

I've actually come to agree with him on that matter.

Why?

How is he different from Richard Reed?

588 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:42:31pm

Off topic funny pix

[Link: www.dump.com...]

589 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:42:33pm

re: #534 The Sanity Inspector

Back on topic for a moment. Those are certainly some sordid doings Charles has presented us. However, I'm not ready to replace my Stand With Denmark banner with a Coexist one yet. Expatriate journalist Bruce Bawer, who lives in Scandinavia and speaks several northern European languages fluently, has this to say about the situation in the Netherlands, which may easily apply to that in Denmark:

I honestly have trouble figuring out how bad the situation in parts of Europe may or may not be. So many people who have written of a rising ride of Islamic violence have themselves turned out to be racists or nutjobs, or self-promoters.

I can see the big, well-publicized situations for myself--van Gogh, or this business a few days ago with the cartoonist--it's the degree to which there is a real problem, religious or cultural and not just yoots acting out, with a critical mass of Muslim immigrants. I can't assess.

And I tend to keep a critical eye for this sort of thing--I hear crap all the time about Latino immigrants in my own area, which I can see with my own eyes is crap. Given that there is now a while little scholar's cottage industry in being Chicken Litle about Islam in Europe--how does one assess? How do any of you? Genuinely curious about this.

590 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:42:49pm

re: #573 Floral Giraffe

WTF?
Those are words that mean things?
LOL!
'Rotsa Ruck, Ice!

I went out on the randan and met some bawbag wearing a dirty big pair o' tackety boots. The pub was mocket and the toilets were boufin but bein' saturday night it wis hoachin' and we gave it laldy anyway.

591 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:43:13pm

re: #584 The Sanity Inspector

I think the undiebomber should have a civilian trial. It's hard to think what national security secrets would be divulged, since he was not detected or caught by the government.

At least, it wouldn't be such a calamity as the '93 WTC bombers' trial was.

592 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:43:22pm

re: #538 freetoken

Don't know how many of you saw this from yesterday, but I just came across itL

Hawaii can't afford Congressional election

That can't be Constitutional. Can we have a bake sale or something?
Savor the irony...

593 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:43:52pm

re: #590 Jimmah

hey Jimmah, did you ever read the childrens 'classic' Water Babies?

He has some good things to say about the Scots (as compared to what he says about the Welsh and the Irish anyways >>)

594 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:44:36pm

re: #546 iceweasel

Hilarious! I must get him to teach me more!

BTW, major thanks to you and SFZ for helping nag him to go to the doctor. He'd been promising he would but you guys really helped make it happen, i think!

My pleasure. Frickin' men. A broken arm, and they think they'll take a couple of Advil.

595 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:45:18pm

re: #547 Thanos

Yep, it's getting really ugly. Really really ugly. If I weren't an atheist I would pray for our president.

Atheist, schmatheist. That's no reason not to pray for the president!

/old joke

596 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:46:15pm

re: #584 The Sanity Inspector

I think the undiebomber should have a civilian trial. It's hard to think what national security secrets would be divulged, since he was not detected or caught by the government.

Yes. And they're throwing the book at him. He'll probably never be a free man again and spend the rest of his life in ADX Florence.

597 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:46:51pm

re: #592 SanFranciscoZionist

Perhaps if you can convince KT to bake 100,000 loaves of his bread we could raise enough dough to send to Hawaii to make a difference...

598 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:47:14pm

re: #567 Gus 802

Go To Scotland


[Video]

I love him!

Here is Simon Munnery doing his "Real Life Confessions of Sherlock Holmes" afterhours at a pub during the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, if you haven't seen it:

Science! Science! Science!

599 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:47:57pm

re: #597 freetoken

Oh lordy, lordy lordy.

600 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:48:26pm

Great para from the article IW posted upthread:

I understand, but reject, certain religious teachings that denounce homosexuality as morally wrong, illegitimate, or unnatural; and I take strong exception to those who argue that same-sex relationships should be discouraged by society and law. Science has taught us, even if history has not, that gays and lesbians do not choose to be homosexual any more than the rest of us choose to be heterosexual. To a very large extent, these characteristics are immutable, like being left-handed. And, while our Constitution guarantees the freedom to exercise our individual religious convictions, it equally prohibits us from forcing our beliefs on others. I do not believe that our society can ever live up to the promise of equality, and the fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, until we stop invidious discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

601 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:48:46pm

re: #590 Jimmah

I went out on the randan and met some bawbag wearing a dirty big pair o' tackety boots. The pub was mocket and the toilets were boufin but bein' saturday night it wis hoachin' and we gave it laldy anyway.

Vous savez que j'aime la langue écossaise .. Être bien et redevenir sain

602 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:48:57pm

re: #590 Jimmah

I went out on the randan and met some bawbag wearing a dirty big pair o' tackety boots. The pub was mocket and the toilets were boufin but bein' saturday night it wis hoachin' and we gave it laldy anyway.

Of course, you did.
(Big old whiskey Tango Foxtrot on that one!)

603 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:50:18pm

re: #596 Gus 802

Yes. And they're throwing the book at him. He'll probably never be a free man again and spend the rest of his life in ADX Florence.

He'll get life, but he may be able to work out a deal that gives him something less than Supermax. I actually hope he does; life in ADX would be worse than death.

604 jaunte  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:50:24pm

Mark Knopfler - Going Home

605 ArchangelMichael  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:51:09pm

re: #603 Dark_Falcon

He'll get life, but he may be able to work out a deal that gives him something less than Supermax. I actually hope he does; life in ADX would be worse than death.

"SHU Program.... 23 hour lockdown... you'll never see the light of DAY!"

606 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:51:30pm

re: #605 ArchangelMichael

"SHU Program... 23 hour lockdown... you'll never see the light of DAY!"

Where's that from?

607 ArchangelMichael  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:52:06pm

re: #606 Dark_Falcon

Where's that from?

Training Day, but he's talking about Pelican Bay in that instance.

608 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:52:14pm

File under WALMART, enemy of mankind:

Toxic metal in kids' jewelry from China


Barred from using lead in children's jewelry because of its toxicity, some Chinese manufacturers have been substituting the more dangerous heavy metal cadmium in sparkling charm bracelets and shiny pendants being sold throughout the United States, an Associated Press investigation shows.

The most contaminated piece analyzed in lab testing performed for the AP contained a startling 91 percent cadmium by weight. The cadmium content of other contaminated trinkets, all purchased at national and regional chains or franchises, tested at 89 percent, 86 percent and 84 percent by weight. The testing also showed that some items easily shed the heavy metal, raising additional concerns about the levels of exposure to children.

[...]

Some of the most troubling test results were for bracelet charms sold at Walmart, at the jewelry chain Claire's and at a dollar store. High amounts of cadmium also were detected in "The Princess and The Frog" movie-themed pendants.

[...]

609 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:52:56pm

re: #600 Thanos

Great para from the article IW posted upthread:

Cheers Thanos-- It was nice to see a defense of same sex marriage putting it squarely in a conservative tradition and absent the usual culture war dialectic that it's been stuck in. I thought it might be good reading for many conservatives here who remain divided or undecided on the issue.

610 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:54:02pm

re: #590 Jimmah

I went out on the randan and met some bawbag wearing a dirty big pair o' tackety boots. The pub was mocket and the toilets were boufin but bein' saturday night it wis hoachin' and we gave it laldy anyway.

איך פארשטיי גארניט פון דיזע מאדנע לשון

611 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:54:18pm

re: #603 Dark_Falcon

He'll get life, but he may be able to work out a deal that gives him something less than Supermax. I actually hope he does; life in ADX would be worse than death.

I think he won't get any deal and wind up just like Richard Reid. By the time you add up 278 counts of attempted murder... Another thing, a military tribunal is (or in this case would be) no guarantee of a severe sentence.

612 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:55:03pm

re: #593 windsagio

hey Jimmah, did you ever read the childrens 'classic' Water Babies?

He has some good things to say about the Scots (as compared to what he says about the Welsh and the Irish anyways >>)

No - never read that one. I'm guessing by the level of regional bigotry that it was written in the victorian era? lol I'll look out for it though.

613 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:55:40pm

re: #602 Floral Giraffe

Of course, you did.
(Big old whiskey Tango Foxtrot on that one!)

Minds me of a friend who discovered the Irish meaning of the word 'crack'--properly but not always spelled 'craic'--when a nun in full habit told her that she'd heard there was great crack in the Cork nightclubs.

614 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:55:44pm

re: #589 SanFranciscoZionist

I honestly have trouble figuring out how bad the situation in parts of Europe may or may not be. So many people who have written of a rising ride of Islamic violence have themselves turned out to be racists or nutjobs, or self-promoters.

I can see the big, well-publicized situations for myself--van Gogh, or this business a few days ago with the cartoonist--it's the degree to which there is a real problem, religious or cultural and not just yoots acting out, with a critical mass of Muslim immigrants. I can't assess.

And I tend to keep a critical eye for this sort of thing--I hear crap all the time about Latino immigrants in my own area, which I can see with my own eyes is crap. Given that there is now a while little scholar's cottage industry in being Chicken Litle about Islam in Europe--how does one assess? How do any of you? Genuinely curious about this.

We often have trouble giving credence to issues that we don't see with our own eyes, or have to endure upon our own personal selves. Years ago in my college there was an Argentinian girl. She wrote an op-ed in the college newspaper, decrying the tarring of Argentina's image with the news media's stories of the then-ongoing Dirty War. She wrote about what kind, life-loving people Argentinians are, how she never, ever saw any evidence of people being tortured or disappeared. Either she had been shielded from it, or she had chosen to look away, or both. In any reckoning though, she was wrong. Slow-motion calamities can and do happen right under our noses.

615 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:55:45pm

re: #612 Jimmah

naturally. Paddy can't help but steal, and (I don't remember his term for Welsh people, but those guys) can't help but hate their betters!

616 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:56:02pm

re: #580 HoosierHoops

The guy that founded my particular style was small. He came up with unique ways to fight as a smaller guy. He was at his most insistent about avoiding soft tissue injury. Incoming energy management etc. He moves well to this day.

Others I know who did "harder" styles like iron shirt Kung Fu and stayed with hard hitting styles like Muay Thai are really hurting these days. Now I train to be very flowing and Tai Chi like in my fighting style should I ever need it. Or I use my gun. High speed tactical competition. Honestly probably my favorite martial art is the handgun against the clock. Hard contact sports are for those young enough to heal well. 20 or so.

617 windsagio  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:56:07pm

re: #615 windsagio

scots are okay becasue they're just less civilized Englishmen.

618 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:56:31pm

re: #607 ArchangelMichael

Training Day, but he's talking about Pelican Bay in that instance.

Cool, I loved that movie.

619 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:56:49pm

re: #608 freetoken

File under WALMART, enemy of mankind:

Toxic metal in kids' jewelry from China

Claire's, too. My students are probably glowing in the dark.

620 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:57:14pm

re: #615 windsagio

naturally. Paddy can't help but steal, and (I don't remember his term for Welsh people, but those guys) can't help but hate their betters!

Taffy was a Welshman
Taffy was a thief
Taffy came to my house
And stole a piece of beef

(recited by Bullwinkle and acted by Boris)

621 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:57:19pm

re: #611 Gus 802

I think he won't get any deal and wind up just like Richard Reid. By the time you add up 278 289 counts of attempted murder... Another thing, a military tribunal is (or in this case would be) no guarantee of a severe sentence.

Fixed.

622 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:58:09pm

re: #610 Alouette

איך פארשטי&# x05D9; גארניט פון דיזע מאדנע לשון

Αυτό είναι όλα τα ελληνικά μου.

623 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:58:37pm

re: #601 HoosierHoops

re: #610 Alouette

Heh - that's poetic justice I guess.

624 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 8:59:12pm
625 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:00:10pm

re: #614 The Sanity Inspector

We often have trouble giving credence to issues that we don't see with our own eyes, or have to endure upon our own personal selves. Years ago in my college there was an Argentinian girl. She wrote an op-ed in the college newspaper, decrying the tarring of Argentina's image with the news media's stories of the then-ongoing Dirty War. She wrote about what kind, life-loving people Argentinians are, how she never, ever saw any evidence of people being tortured or disappeared. Either she had been shielded from it, or she had chosen to look away, or both. In any reckoning though, she was wrong. Slow-motion calamities can and do happen right under our noses.

I agree--but I would also repeat that, given the high number of people writing about this who are pursuing a filthy agenda of their own, and palling around with Nazis--who should I be listening to?

626 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:00:32pm

re: #615 windsagio

naturally. Paddy can't help but steal, and (I don't remember his term for Welsh people, but those guys) can't help but hate their betters!

Taffy?

627 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:01:16pm

re: #611 Gus 802

I think he won't get any deal and wind up just like Richard Reid. By the time you add up 278 counts of attempted murder... Another thing, a military tribunal is (or in this case would be) no guarantee of a severe sentence.

Exactly. There isn't anything 'more' that the military tribunal situation could accomplish-- except possibly to to reinforce the already widespread lie among extremists that the US legal system is corrupt and won't deal out justice.

IMO one of the best 'advertisements' for our legal system, and for the US as a nation of laws, is to put these people on trial openly for the world to see, treat them justly, and thereby demonstrate exactly how far we are from those who despise us (for precisely those protections, rights, and considerations we offer to all).
And the pragmatic point here is: we can do all that and still convict them.
They want to be martyrs, after all. They want to believe we're unjust. I say, we don't let that happen.

628 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:01:35pm

re: #598 iceweasel

I love him!

Here is Simon Munnery doing his "Real Life Confessions of Sherlock Holmes" afterhours at a pub during the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, if you haven't seen it:

[Video]Science! Science! Science!

"Mashed on squinty-pop" Never tire of watching that :)

629 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:01:38pm

re: #616 Rightwingconspirator

The guy that founded my particular style was small. He came up with unique ways to fight as a smaller guy. He was at his most insistent about avoiding soft tissue injury. Incoming energy management etc. He moves well to this day.

Others I know who did "harder" styles like iron shirt Kung Fu and stayed with hard hitting styles like Muay Thai are really hurting these days. Now I train to be very flowing and Tai Chi like in my fighting style should I ever need it. Or I use my gun. High speed tactical competition. Honestly probably my favorite martial art is the handgun against the clock. Hard contact sports are for those young enough to heal well. 20 or so.

mmmm...Our Basketball coach told us we should take Aikido in College for the stretching...So every day at 2pm I did Aikido.. I have a brown belt from Napa Juco...Thats all I know about marshall arts...

630 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:02:37pm

re: #608 freetoken

Oh no. Not again! The company I work for pioneered the use of indium and tin instead of cadmium in gold solders for jewelry repairs. 30 effing years ago. That was so jewelers would not be exposed, not the public. Cadmium instead of lead is a horrible substitute. The US and California in particular have strong laws about this. Particularly in children's jewelry. Cadmium is really hazardous in humans.

631 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:03:39pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree--but I would also repeat that, given the high number of people writing about this who are pursuing a filthy agenda of their own, and palling around with Nazis--who should I be listening to?

You're a teacher: whip out those critical reading skills. Who is telling me this? Why are they telling me this? Can this be squared with corroborating information I already know to be true? Can it be independently traced to a reputable source. Is it the truth? The whole truth? And etc.

632 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:03:44pm

re: #629 HoosierHoops

mmm...Our Basketball coach told us we should take Aikido in College for the stretching...So every day at 2pm I did Aikido.. I have a brown belt from Napa Juco...Thats all I know about marshall arts...

Back when I was a college fencer, we had a guy who was taking Aikido, and was very into it. He came bouncing in one day and said "Grab my arm!"

I did, and then the world flipped upside down. The next thing I knew, dude was standing over me, looking worried, and saying "whoa, it worked! Are you OK?"

633 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:04:15pm

re: #624 freetoken

Brain Bleach! Stat!

634 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:05:02pm

re: #631 The Sanity Inspector

You're a teacher: whip out those critical reading skills. Who is telling me this? Why are they telling me this? Can this be squared with corroborating information I already know to be true? Can it be independently traced to a reputable source. Is it the truth? The whole truth? And etc.

I guess what I'm saying is, I find the process very frustrating on this point, and would like to know if others are also feeling in the dark.

635 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:07:16pm

re: #629 HoosierHoops

Aikido was good advice. Energy deflection etc. Brown Belt? Takes some dedication to get there. I tip my hat to you for that. I like Aikido, one can truly avoid the incoming shots and still meter the damage upon the other guy really well. From kind to critical as per the threat.

636 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:07:20pm

Another interesting article at Newsweek

[Link: blog.newsweek.com...]

637 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:07:26pm

Well, gotta go. Electric blanket's all primed up & ready to work. 'Night all, I enjoyed it as always.

638 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:08:17pm

re: #630 Rightwingconspirator

Yup, bad stuff. I really believe that Walmart should be held legally accountable for this kind of stuff.

What you say about the workers is often overlooked by the nay-sayers in this country, when it comes to banning toxic metals. That's one reason why the EU essentially totally banned lead from almost all uses. This ban affected some Japanese camera makers, btw, causing them to pull some older models off the market (not that the market wasn't already in decline....)

Think of all the Chinese workers, probably women and children, working around foundries, with the air full of cadmium fumes.

639 Digital Display  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:08:46pm

re: #632 SanFranciscoZionist

Back when I was a college fencer, we had a guy who was taking Aikido, and was very into it. He came bouncing in one day and said "Grab my arm!"

I did, and then the world flipped upside down. The next thing I knew, dude was standing over me, looking worried, and saying "whoa, it worked! Are you OK?"

Aikido is pretty cool...I'm glad I took it in College...It helped playing basketball..
It should be the law that all woman have a black belt..
There would never ever be a rape in the US.. Cause they will kick your f*cking ass...

640 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:08:52pm

re: #632 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm thinking about taking fencing. Good school near me here. A bit linear, but looks like great fun. Subtle & fast.

641 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:10:23pm

re: #627 iceweasel

Exactly. There isn't anything 'more' that the military tribunal situation could accomplish-- except possibly to to reinforce the already widespread lie among extremists that the US legal system is corrupt and won't deal out justice.

IMO one of the best 'advertisements' for our legal system, and for the US as a nation of laws, is to put these people on trial openly for the world to see, treat them justly, and thereby demonstrate exactly how far we are from those who despise us (for precisely those protections, rights, and considerations we offer to all).
And the pragmatic point here is: we can do all that and still convict them.
They want to be martyrs, after all. They want to believe we're unjust. I say, we don't let that happen.

And as they say, we are a nation of laws, not men. These laws are already in existence in civilian law, courts, the Constitution, etc.

We face this challenge now but cannot discard our system of justice in favor of military justice. We are not a militarist system; we are civilian nation. There is a time and place for military tribunals but not in every case. Otherwise we are opening the door to a very slippery slope.

642 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:10:24pm

re: #636 Thanos

Another interesting article at Newsweek

[Link: blog.newsweek.com...]

Dinged and recommended. Charging 549 per person? Whoa.

643 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:11:20pm

BTW, another beautiful warm day down here *, part of a fairly warm week.

You can see a national map of temps, current and predicted, at this site:
[Link: www.nws.noaa.gov...]

/ * just don't move here!

644 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:12:07pm

re: #638 freetoken

How about blaming the Chinese companies that make this stuff. I'm not sure Walmart even knows much of how this stuff gets into its products. The supply chains in China are often very long, and its impossible to trace how the toxic material got in.

645 Aye Pod  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:12:11pm

Night folks! Have a good one :)

646 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:13:59pm

re: #641 Gus 802

And as they say, we are a nation of laws, not men. These laws are already in existence in civilian law, courts, the Constitution, etc.

We face this challenge now but cannot discard our system of justice in favor of military justice. We are not a militarist system; we are civilian nation. There is a time and place for military tribunals but not in every case. Otherwise we are opening the door to a very slippery slope.

I'm not convinced we ever needed a military tribunal to deal with most of them. Unfortunately now we're faced with a situation where we have some detainees who can't be convicted in civilian courts and can't be let go. I reluctantly support the military tribunals in such cases.

647 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:14:38pm

Back in a bit-- time to say goodnight to Jimmah, etc.

648 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:14:42pm

re: #638 freetoken

I agree. China is the wild west or like the meat industry here before regulation & Upton Sinclair.

Although Europe gets as weird as California. For example, most American white gold uses nickel to whiten the 14kt. Some are allergic to nickel, as in dermatitis. Maybe severe dermatitis. But not life threatening. Europe essentially banned nickel in jewelry. Gold or not. So in Europe or for the allergic, white gold is made with palladium, a hypoallergenic precious metal.

We all know how dangerous nuts or shellfish are to some folks. Deadly dangerous. You can get all the nut products or lobster you want there. But no nickel white gold to wear on your finger.

Huh?!!

649 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:15:36pm

re: #636 Thanos

From that link:

There’s growing talk of the Tea Partiers turning into an official third party, maintaining its outsider status by issuing primary challenges to Republican candidates.

Yeah... essentially the same people and party that Strom Thurmond and George Wallace tried to start...

650 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:17:02pm

re: #644 Dark_Falcon

Would those Chinese companies produce it if Walmart didn't buy it?

Walmart brings it into this country... they should be held liable.

651 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:19:16pm

re: #644 Dark_Falcon

They should share the blame. China is ruthless. But we already knew that country is unreliable on safety. To say the least?
The law puts the big burden on the retailer. The law already requires testing for lead. The consumer has no chance to vet this out until something bad happens. Keeping the burden of safety local should give Walmart real incentive to stick with safe sources.

652 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:19:53pm

re: #650 freetoken

Would those Chinese companies produce it if Walmart didn't buy it?

Walmart brings it into this country... they should be held liable.

You won't get too many takers with that argument. Switching suppliers would cost money and people don't want prices to go up in the middle of a recession.

653 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:21:04pm

re: #646 iceweasel

I'm not convinced we ever needed a military tribunal to deal with most of them. Unfortunately now we're faced with a situation where we have some detainees who can't be convicted in civilian courts and can't be let go. I reluctantly support the military tribunals in such cases.

I was thinking in the case of what is now called legal enemy combatants that have engaged in war crimes. That is uniformed former enemy officers or soldiers that engaged in such crimes not unlike the Nuremberg Trials. Or in the case of illegal enemy combatants engaged in activities against our own military units. Of course the latter gets confusing because a legal enemy combatant that engaged our troops (within accepted conventions of war) would be given Geneva Convention rights while an illegal combatant would not.

What a mess.

654 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:21:40pm

re: #652 Dark_Falcon

Switching to another developing country need not cost more. India and Mexico can do the work.

655 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:23:02pm

UAE Sheikh cleared in video taped Torture case:

656 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:24:37pm

re: #652 Dark_Falcon

You won't get too many takers with that argument. Switching suppliers would cost money and people don't want prices to go up in the middle of a recession.

So, what you're telling me is that this person wouldn't pay an extra 50¢ to have a throw away piece of jewelry made in Mexico or Thailand rather than China?

657 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:27:38pm

re: #656 freetoken

OMG

658 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:29:42pm

re: #656 freetoken

So, what you're telling me is that this person wouldn't pay an extra 50¢ to have a throw away piece of jewelry made in Mexico or Thailand rather than China?

I'm saying they would notice the price increase before they noticed anything else. Walmart is loath to relinquish their price edge.

659 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:36:13pm

Off to bed. 05:30 comes all to soon.

660 rikzilla  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:36:49pm

Ok, it's a little late and this is OT, but does anyone here have any information about the Republican candidate for Governor of Tennessee Bill Haslam???

There's not much ink on this guy. A buddy of mine is working for his campaign now and swears up and down this is not a theocratic, homophobic, teaparty darling....yet there's something hinky about him.

So my lizards, anyone actually know anything much about him? The sources I've been at haven't given me much....

661 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:42:00pm

Time for me to get some sleeps g'nite all

Joe Pass

662 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:43:28pm

re: #660 rikzilla

Mongo not know...

/thanks for the name, I'll do some digging tomorrow.

663 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:46:45pm

re: #660 rikzilla

Well, go to the horse's mouth, so to speak:


Bill’s values are Tennessee’s values. He and his wife Crissy are college sweethearts – they met on the first day of college classes and were married a year after they graduated. They have three children: Annie and Leigh, who are still in college, and Will, who just got married and moved back to Knoxville with his wife Hannah. For 27 years, Bill and Crissy have been members of Cedar Springs Presbyterian Church and for 21 of those years Bill has served as an Elder.

As governor, Bill will work to protect our values and ensure that Tennessee remains one of the best states in the country to raise a family. Bill is a life-long conservative and will work to preserve traditional marriage and protect the rights of the unborn. [...]

The religion he belongs to is an evangelical variant of Presbyterian sects, though by far not one of the most "fundamentalist".

664 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:47:32pm

re: #656 freetoken

So, what you're telling me is that this person wouldn't pay an extra 50¢ to have a throw away piece of jewelry made in Mexico or Thailand rather than China?

I would not dream of even beginning to guess what might be in that person's head.

665 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:48:01pm

Government is the problem.

666 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:49:51pm

re: #663 freetoken

Well, go to the horse's mouth, so to speak:

Bill’s values are Tennessee’s values. He and his wife Crissy are college sweethearts – they met on the first day of college classes and were married a year after they graduated. They have three children: Annie and Leigh, who are still in college, and Will, who just got married and moved back to Knoxville with his wife Hannah. For 27 years, Bill and Crissy have been members of Cedar Springs Presbyterian Church and for 21 of those years Bill has served as an Elder.

As governor, Bill will work to protect our values and ensure that Tennessee remains one of the best states in the country to raise a family. Bill is a life-long conservative and will work to preserve traditional marriage and protect the rights of the unborn. [...]

The religion he belongs to is an evangelical variant of Presbyterian sects, though by far not one of the most "fundamentalist".

Seems a SoCon, but not crazy. He might well be worthy of support, as such candidates can do well in Southern states.

667 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:51:01pm

re: #666 Dark_Falcon

Seems a SoCon, but not crazy. He might well be worthy of support, as such candidates can do well in Southern states.

Politics is like a box of chocolates....

668 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:55:36pm

re: #667 freetoken

Politics is like a box of chocolates...

Well, the boxes are labeled, so you usually get hint of what's inside but surprise do happen.

669 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:56:24pm

re: #665 Racer X

Good stuff for any who need reminders of what the left does.

670 rikzilla  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:56:52pm

re: #666 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking... But something tells me he's trying to fly under the radar a bit. Perhaps like any decent politician he's just trying to appear sane while reassuring the religious that he's tight with Jesus in an ambiguous way? I like my conservatives...but like Charles I can't abide science denying, creationism supporting theocrats. Maybe there are still some good candidates being offered by the Republicans?? Or maybe the purge just isn't quite complete yet??

671 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:59:55pm

re: #670 rikzilla

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking... But something tells me he's trying to fly under the radar a bit. Perhaps like any decent politician he's just trying to appear sane while reassuring the religious that he's tight with Jesus in an ambiguous way? I like my conservatives...but like Charles I can't abide science denying, creationism supporting theocrats. Maybe there are still some good candidates being offered by the Republicans?? Or maybe the purge just isn't quite complete yet??

I'd say to contact his campaign by email. Ask them some friendly questions and get a feel for what sort of people are working his campaign. That should give you more information on who he is.

672 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 9:59:56pm

re: #669 Dark_Falcon

Good stuff for any who need reminders of what the left does.

Not everyone on the right is a religious fanatic; not everyone on the left has your best interests at heart.

673 avanti  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:02:01pm

re: #672 Racer X

Not everyone on the right is a religious fanatic; not everyone on the left has your best interests at heart.

How about Palin ?

"WASHINGTON – Sarah Palin believed that Sen. John McCain chose her to be his running mate in 2008 because of "God's plan," according to a top political strategist in the Arizona Republican's campaign.

In an interview with the CBS news magazine "60 Minutes," Steve Schmidt described Palin as "very calm — nonplussed" after McCain met with her at his Arizona ranch just before putting her on the Republican ticket. McCain had planned to name Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., as his vice presidential choice until word leaked, sparking what Schmidt called political blowback over picking the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee.

Schmidt said he asked Palin about her serenity in the face of becoming "one of the most famous people in the world." He quoted her as saying, "It's God's plan."

674 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:03:15pm

re: #672 Racer X

Not everyone on the right is a religious fanatic; not everyone on the left has your best interests at heart.

Quite Concur.

675 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:04:32pm

Mosquito Catcher

Ya know, summer is coming again this year, and with all that global warmening bugs will want to suck your blood. This device makes eliminating bugs fun!

676 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:05:03pm

re: #673 avanti

How about Palin ?

"WASHINGTON – Sarah Palin believed that Sen. John McCain chose her to be his running mate in 2008 because of "God's plan," according to a top political strategist in the Arizona Republican's campaign.

In an interview with the CBS news magazine "60 Minutes," Steve Schmidt described Palin as "very calm — nonplussed" after McCain met with her at his Arizona ranch just before putting her on the Republican ticket. McCain had planned to name Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., as his vice presidential choice until word leaked, sparking what Schmidt called political blowback over picking the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee.

Schmidt said he asked Palin about her serenity in the face of becoming "one of the most famous people in the world." He quoted her as saying, "It's God's plan."

I don't know if she's a fanatic, but she is often willfully ignorant, and that is not an acceptable trait in a leader.

677 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:05:39pm

re: #668 Dark_Falcon

Well, the boxes are labeled, so you usually get hint of what's inside but surprise do happen.

Such as this popular disclaimer from some famous chocolate manufacturers: "This product was manufactured in a facility known to process nuts...."

678 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:06:16pm

re: #673 avanti

I'm getting really bored with Sarah Palin every day.

679 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:07:29pm

re: #677 freetoken

Such as this popular disclaimer from some famous chocolate manufacturers: "This product was manufactured in a facility known to process nuts..."

[smiles] I take both of your points. That label was put there for liability reasons. They don't want anyone with a severe nut allergy to consume their product and then have a reaction and sue.

680 freetoken  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:07:56pm

re: #673 avanti

Avanit - you might take this to heart:

Prius No. 1 in Japan sales as green interest grows

[...]

Green models have gotten a huge lift this year in Japan from a government cash-for-clunkers program and tax breaks, aimed at boosting sales during a slowdown that has seriously hurt Japanese automakers.

The Prius has been the biggest beneficiary of the policy.

Hybrid sales got a perk from the cash-for-clunkers program in the U.S., but that only lasted about a month. The program in Japan is being extended by a half-year through September.

[...]

681 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:16:22pm

re: #678 Racer X

I'm getting really bored with Sarah Palin every day.

I wish we had a strong Republican leader to talk about.

682 avanti  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:18:12pm

re: #678 Racer X

I'm getting really bored with Sarah Palin every day.

My opinion ? If it's God's plan for her to run, God may be a leftie or has a great sense of humor.

683 Kewalo  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:18:56pm

re: #682 avanti

or both

684 avanti  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:19:12pm

re: #681 Floral Giraffe

I wish we had a strong Republican leader to talk about.

Me too, we all need two strong parties for balance.

685 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:20:07pm

re: #681 Floral Giraffe

I wish we had a strong Republican leader to talk about.

But what will be do if that person is found, and she turns out to wear boring flats, and doesn't shoot moose?

686 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:21:00pm

re: #681 Floral Giraffe

I wish we had a strong Republican leader to talk about.

Sarah Palin is "Politician Barbie". She is doing exactly what she said she was going to do - make a bunch of money before her 15 minutes are up. All this political gesturing is part of her money making scheme. I wish I had a schtick like that. Suckers.

687 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:21:12pm

re: #685 SanFranciscoZionist

But what will be do if that person is found, and she turns out to wear boring flats, and doesn't shoot moose?

Be happy that sanity prevailed, that's what I would do.

688 avanti  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:24:39pm

re: #685 SanFranciscoZionist

But what will be do if that person is found, and she turns out to wear boring flats, and doesn't shoot moose?

As long as she's pro life, anti science and gay marriage, she might get the nomination. (sad, but true)

689 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:24:46pm

re: #685 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL!
We can get her a stylist! Tart her up, err...tout suite!

690 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:26:13pm

re: #672 Racer X

Not everyone on the right is a religious fanatic; not everyone on the left has your best interests at heart.

I'll add to this only (as an atheist lefty) that not everyone who is religious is a wingnut or supports the so-con/theocrat/religious right agenda.

(still saying goodnight to Jimmah, back later)

691 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:26:23pm
692 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:26:35pm

re: #685 SanFranciscoZionist

But what will be do if that person is found, and she turns out to wear boring flats, and doesn't shoot moose?

Better yet, what is she was seriously into Goth?
Can you imagine?
*boom*boom*
Sounds of heads exploding!

693 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:28:59pm

re: #692 Floral Giraffe

Better yet, what is she was seriously into Goth?
Can you imagine?
*boom*boom*
Sounds of heads exploding!

Goth Republican presidential candidate.

Well, her inauguration clothes would be interesting!

694 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:31:44pm

Here's Mark Steyn on our government at work:

Crack TSA Manhunt Corners National Security Threat

After six days, the authorities have finally caught the man who strolled through into the "secure" area at Newark Airport. Haisong Jiang, a 28-year-old Rutgers bio-medical research grad student, apparently was overcome by a sudden yen to give his sweetheart a goodbye kiss. According to his friend Hui:

"Yeah, he did something inappropriate. He didn't think it's a big deal, so he didn't mention it... We know that he's very excited to have a real woman," Hui said.

That could discombobulate anyone. Nevertheless, a lot of people want to throw the book at poor old Jiang:

New Jersey Senator Frank Lautenberg expressed anger that he could only face a fine.

"It wasn't some prank that didn't do any harm - it did a lot of harm because it sent out an alert that people can get away with something like this," he said.

Yes, and, if you thought before opening your ridiculous Senatorial mouth, you'd realize that that's what you should be mad about - that at your airport anybody "can get away with something like this", not that Mr Jiang exposed that fact. He didn't have to try anything clever. He just waited until crack TSA national security operative Ruben Hernandez turned his back:

The stunning breach was missed by TSA guard Ruben Hernandez, who left his post, but was called a "model employee" by a union official.

I'll bet. There are a lot of those at Newark:

A bystander waiting for an arriving passenger noticed the breach and told the guard. TSA officials then discovered that surveillance cameras at the security checkpoint had not recorded the breach.

Really? So then what?

That's right – they weren't even recording, sources said, and needed a reboot, which the agency apparently didn't ask for. That set off a chain reaction of even more missteps that caused needless chaos and inconvenience for several thousand hapless passengers.

With the cameras inoperable, the TSA tried to get a second set of surveillance video from Continental Airlines. But the TSA apparently didn't know the correct telephone number and the specific procedures to get the footage.

Shutting down the airport, wasting thousands of people's time by pointlessly rescreening them, treating them as animals in pens without food or drink or bathroom breaks for hours on end, causing them to miss their flights and screwing up their lives... none of that is Mr Jiang's fault but that of the money-no-object TSA that imposes stupid petty rules on everybody else but doesn't even follow its own. And that's why Senator Lautenberg's anger is misdirected: It's not Mr Jiang's fault that Newark's "security" is a laughingstock.

Click the link to get links to the news articles Steyn uses.

695 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:31:45pm

Why am I remembering the King of the Hill episode where Bobby starts hanging with the Christian skaters?

"Mr. Hill, do you want Bobby to be a faithful Christian, or do you want Bobby to have a conservative haircut?"

"I haven't given up on having both!"

696 Racer X  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:33:27pm

The jury is still out on Obama. One year in and I have yet to see anything substantive. No health care, the economy is still effed up. We are still at war on two fronts. Politics as usual. The country is more polarized than ever.

No rainbows or ponies or unicorns anywhere to be found and I'm pissed off about that. Some change.

IMHO

697 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:33:49pm

re: #694 Dark_Falcon

Here's Mark Steyn on our government at work:

Crack TSA Manhunt Corners National Security Threat


Click the link to get links to the news articles Steyn uses.

"We know that he's very excited to have a real woman..." That's sweet. Embarassing, but sweet.

698 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:35:20pm

re: #693 SanFranciscoZionist

No goth republican candidates! I will only accept steampunk, and nothing else!
/

699 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:38:52pm

re: #697 SanFranciscoZionist

"We know that he's very excited to have a real woman..." That's sweet. Embarassing, but sweet.

Yeah, and you know, Mark Steyn has so much experience in working in the government.

I think it's time for a Mark Steyn quote:

Why did Bosnia collapse into the worst slaughter in Europe since the second World War? In the thirty years before the meltdown, Bosnian Serbs had declined from 43 percent to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims had increased from 26 percent to 44 percent. In a democratic age, you can't buck demography — except through civil war. The Serbs figured that out, as other Continentals will in the years ahead: if you cannot outbreed the enemy, cull 'em. The problem that Europe faces is that Bosnia's demographic profile is now the model for the entire continent.

Fascinating. That sure raises my eyebrows.

700 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:39:18pm

re: #698 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey, I resembled that!

701 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:39:57pm

re: #699 Gus 802

Fascinating. That sure raises my eyebrows.

That's a real Mark Steyn quote?

702 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:40:31pm

Would you kindly have a look at this game trailer.

703 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:40:59pm

re: #701 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a real Mark Steyn quote?

From Wiki. Referencing:

Steyn, Mark: "America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It", Regnery Publishing, 2006

704 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:41:34pm

re: #700 Floral Giraffe

Hey, I resembled that!

Resembled?

705 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:43:25pm

re: #704 Slumbering Behemoth

Once upon a time, in a land far, far away...

706 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:44:22pm

re: #701 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a real Mark Steyn quote?

But he responded here.

Same old shit.

707 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:44:24pm

re: #703 Gus 802

From Wiki. Referencing:

Steyn, Mark: "America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It", Regnery Publishing, 2006

Son. Of. A. Bitch.

/And people wonder why I don't necessarily believe every bright young writer telling me the news out of Europe?

708 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:47:01pm

re: #699 Gus 802

Fascinating. That sure raises my eyebrows.

To be fair, Steyn has repeatedly made it clear he does not favor or condone massacre. He was making the point that shift in demographics can lead to negative effects for a given population and they may try nasty methos to prevent the shift. The Serbs did indeed feel threatened by the Muslims, and not without reason. That does not, repeat not, excuse or justify Srebrenica, but it does help explain it.

709 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:47:15pm

re: #706 Gus 802

But he responded here.

Same old shit.

Scum. Absolute scum.

710 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:49:35pm

re: #708 Dark_Falcon

To be fair, Steyn has repeatedly made it clear he does not favor or condone massacre. He was making the point that shift in demographics can lead to negative effects for a given population and they may try nasty methos to prevent the shift. The Serbs did indeed feel threatened by the Muslims, and not without reason. That does not, repeat not, excuse or justify Srebrenica, but it does help explain it.

What's his explanation for the slaughter between the Christian groups in the area?

711 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:50:24pm

Good night, Lizards.
Be well. Stay scaly.
Play nicely, if you don't get a good troll.

712 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:53:54pm

re: #708 Dark_Falcon

To be fair, Steyn has repeatedly made it clear he does not favor or condone massacre. He was making the point that shift in demographics can lead to negative effects for a given population and they may try nasty methos to prevent the shift. The Serbs did indeed feel threatened by the Muslims, and not without reason. That does not, repeat not, excuse or justify Srebrenica, but it does help explain it.

Sorry but I find it difficult to rationalize what Steyn said. Especially this:

In a democratic age, you can't buck demography — except through civil war.

And this:

The Serbs figured that out, as other Continentals will in the years ahead: if you cannot outbreed the enemy, cull 'em.

It's just to damn flippant and casually written like he's taking a walk through the park. His response is to partially blame Andrew Sullivan for pointing some of this out. That was written three years ago. From what I've read at NRO, he continues to write in this flippant and immature manner.

713 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:53:58pm

re: #705 Floral Giraffe

I had no idea there was a steampunk phenomenon that long ago.
/

714 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:54:39pm

re: #699 Gus 802

Fascinating. That sure raises my eyebrows.

more by steyn following that quote:

Even if you regard Islam as essentially incompatible with free societies, the slaughter required to end it as a force in the world would change America beyond recognition. That doesn't mean that, a few years down the line, if some kooks with nukes obliterate, say, Marseilles or Lyons that the French wouldn't give it a go in some fairly spectacular way. But they're unlikely to accomplish much by it, any more than the Russians have by their scorched earth strategy in Chechnya.

Here is Sully's take on it:

I'll merely note the manner in which Steyn dismisses the possibility of mass genocide of Muslims in Europe as a final solution to the Islamist problem. It "won't accomplish much." And America would be "changed beyond recognition." More than it was by dropping nukes on Japan? More than by authorizing torture and indefinitely suspending habeas corpus? Nah - Steyn is fine with all that. But he draws the line at a mass genocide of Muslims. Why? It might hurt us and "won't accomplish much." Damn.

Whatever one's issue with AS, and I have many, I'd like to note that I've seen genocidal rhetoric from Steyn before, in addition to the bit that Gus quoted. On this AS is right.
I think Steyn is a freak who needs to be avoided.

715 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:55:42pm

re: #712 Gus 802

It's just to damn flippant and casually written like he's taking a walk through the park. His response is to partially blame Andrew Sullivan for pointing some of this out. That was written three years ago. From what I've read at NRO, he continues to write in this flippant and immature manner.

Agreed. Mark Steyn is on my shortlist for a shitlist.

716 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:56:20pm

re: #714 iceweasel

Whatever one's issue with AS, and I have many, I'd like to note that I've seen genocidal rhetoric from Steyn before, in addition to the bit that Gus quoted. On this AS is right.
I think Steyn is a freak who needs to be avoided.

He's a pig. He's even friends with the Shrieking Harpy.

717 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 10:58:16pm

re: #709 SanFranciscoZionist

Scum. Absolute scum.

How so? I honestly don't see it. The operative quote to me is this one:

My book isn’t about what I want to happen but what I think will happen. Given Fascism, Communism and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, it’s not hard to foresee that the neo-nationalist resurgence already under way in parts of Europe will at some point take a violent form. That’s pretty much a given. Indeed, Ralph Peters and I have already argued about this: the difference between us, as I explain here , is that I think any descent into neo-Fascism will be ineffectual and therefore merely a temporary blip in the remorseless transformation of the Continent.

In so say, he's not approving of the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belaag and others, he's saying that given the situation violence by such groups is highly likely to happen. I think that the totality of America Alone makes it clear that Mark Steyn would very much like to avoid violence and clearly does not like it in any way. However, he does believe that the situation in Europe has made large scale violence likely.

718 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:00:33pm

re: #716 Gus 802

He's a pig. He's even friends with the Shrieking Harpy.

i didn't know that. I do hate Mark Steyn.
BTW, you're spot-on in noting he continues to write in this flippant, offhand, casual manner.
I can see why people on the right might like him. He isn't stupid at all and he can be witty.
But he's a genocidal and evil freak all the same, and the fact that he IS smart and can be charming makes him, IMO, all the more dangerous. He mainstreams these ideas before fans know what's happening.

719 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:02:23pm

re: #717 Dark_Falcon

In so say, he's not approving of the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belaag and others, he's saying that given the situation violence by such groups is highly likely to happen. I think that the totality of America Alone makes it clear that Mark Steyn would very much like to avoid violence and clearly does not like it in any way. However, he does believe that the situation in Europe has made large scale violence likely.

How? He cozies up to Vlaams Belang and they to him. He's a member of the International Free Press Society.

720 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:04:39pm

re: #718 iceweasel

i didn't know that. I do hate Mark Steyn.
BTW, you're spot-on in noting he continues to write in this flippant, offhand, casual manner.
I can see why people on the right might like him. He isn't stupid at all and he can be witty.
But he's a genocidal and evil freak all the same, and the fact that he IS smart and can be charming makes him, IMO, all the more dangerous. He mainstreams these ideas before fans know what's happening.

Yes. Some of it is like he's saying "well, they tried genocide here but it didn't work..." It's like he's "considering" genocide as a means to an end.

721 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:05:18pm

re: #717 Dark_Falcon

In so say, he's not approving of the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belaag and others, he's saying that given the situation violence by such groups is highly likely to happen. I think that the totality of America Alone makes it clear that Mark Steyn would very much like to avoid violence and clearly does not like it in any way. However, he does believe that the situation in Europe has made large scale violence likely.

DF-- I will find you more info on Steyn as soon as I can. For now, please be wary. I've been meaning to put together some info on him for quite a while.
i realise this is shocking and disappointing. I'm always looking out for smart and sane conservatives I can read; I wasn't happy to discover Steyn isn't one of them. Just FYI.

722 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:07:10pm

re: #720 Gus 802

Yes. Some of it is like he's saying "well, they tried genocide here but it didn't work..." It's like he's "considering" genocide as a means to an end.

Yeah, and the only 'problem' with it is that 'it wouldn't work and would make us look bad'.

723 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:09:17pm

re: #722 iceweasel

Yeah, and the only 'problem' with it is that 'it wouldn't work and would make us look bad'.

Right. It's like he's saying, "let's not attempt genocide, it would be bad PR." Kind of gross.

724 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:09:38pm

re: #717 Dark_Falcon

In so say, he's not approving of the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belaag and others, he's saying that given the situation violence by such groups is highly likely to happen. I think that the totality of America Alone makes it clear that Mark Steyn would very much like to avoid violence and clearly does not like it in any way. However, he does believe that the situation in Europe has made large scale violence likely.

It's primarily the flippancy, combined with the fact that he appears to not know very much about the Balkan conflict, and to have simply decided to make it a Muslim/European conflict, despite the plethora of other factors, and the issue that the Muslims in question were Europeans.

So basically, he comes up with a bullshit explanation for a complex conflict that does not actually parallel anything else in Europe, and hypothetically suggests that we may be facing genocide down the road in the rest of Europe. "Cull 'em?" I'd be a little more somber in his shoes.

I have the book on list to read, but none of the quotes popping up here are making me feel as though this is a man I'd trust to explain much of anything to me.

725 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:11:50pm

re: #724 SanFranciscoZionist

It's primarily the flippancy, combined with the fact that he appears to not know very much about the Balkan conflict, and to have simply decided to make it a Muslim/European conflict, despite the plethora of other factors, and the issue that the Muslims in question were Europeans.

So basically, he comes up with a bullshit explanation for a complex conflict that does not actually parallel anything else in Europe, and hypothetically suggests that we may be facing genocide down the road in the rest of Europe. "Cull 'em?" I'd be a little more somber in his shoes.

I have the book on list to read, but none of the quotes popping up here are making me feel as though this is a man I'd trust to explain much of anything to me.

Good points. Insensitive would be a word that comes to mind. He has effectively dehumanized them. He speaks of the victims of genocide as if though they were mere animals being brought to slaughter.

726 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:14:57pm

re: #717 Dark_Falcon

In so say, he's not approving of the neo-fascists of the Vlaams Belaag and others, he's saying that given the situation violence by such groups is highly likely to happen. I think that the totality of America Alone makes it clear that Mark Steyn would very much like to avoid violence and clearly does not like it in any way. However, he does believe that the situation in Europe has made large scale violence likely.

DF, not to go all Godwin on you, but people would (and did, and do) say the same thing about the 'totality' of Mein Kampf or Hitler's speeches about the 'Jewish Question': he portrayed the final solution and eliminationism as an 'unavoidable necessity' should 'the Jews bring about' a situation requiring it.

Steyn isn't Hitler, of course. But there are many reasons to find him suspect, and many writings of his that are just not acceptable.

i don't think she'd mind me saying this, (I hope not) but medaura and I had a private conversation some months ago in which we agreed that Steyn was a major danger to the conservative movement, precisely because so many otherwise rational people take him seriously and remain unaware of his associations and more extremist connections.

727 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:15:24pm

re: #725 Gus 802

Good points. Insensitive would be a word that comes to mind. He has effectively dehumanized them. He speaks of the victims of genocide as if though they were mere animals being brought to slaughter.

The flippancy responding to Sullvan bothers me, too. He's too jovial. I kid about everything, but I'd be dead serious if someone suggested I endorsed geniocide.

728 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:16:07pm

I think I need to read the book in toto.

729 Gus  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:16:38pm

Google search: "mark steyn" site:vdare.com

Sample: Steyn And Tanton On Demographics

I’ve been resisting Steyn’s demographic concerns, figuring that after years of population growth, we could stand a little backward movement, but this paragraph about Bosnia is a little scary, whether you live in Europe or California:

“In the 30 years before the meltdown, Bosnian Serbs had declined from 43% to 31% of the population, while Bosnian Muslims had increased from 26% to 44%. In a democratic age, you can’t buck demography - except through civil war. The Serbs figured that out–as, alas, other Europeans will in the years ahead.”

What struck me, however, is that in a sense, Steyn is making the same argument Dr. John Tanton was excoriated for making years ago, in private memo. Linda Chavez dragged up this old story in 2003, when she wrote that Dr. Tanton had...

Oddly enough even this miscreant at Vdare found this "scary." I'm sure it was for "PR reasons."

730 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:19:48pm

re: #721 iceweasel

DF-- I will find you more info on Steyn as soon as I can. For now, please be wary. I've been meaning to put together some info on him for quite a while.
i realise this is shocking and disappointing. I'm always looking out for smart and sane conservatives I can read; I wasn't happy to discover Steyn isn't one of them. Just FYI.

Put that info together, ice. I promise to read it once you give it to me.

I do have to say here that I do own America Alone, and it would take quite a lot to turn me away from it. The problems of Demography and the collision of Islam and the West are real issues and Steyn addressed them fairly well in my mind. That said, I will consider any arguments you put forward as objectively as I can.

731 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:27:22pm

re: #728 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I need to read the book in toto.

SFZ- I'm not sure you do.
I need to dig up the links I promised medaura then, but I've seen some posts from the left blogosphere that did close readings of his book. Close reading in the academic sense: page by page and annotated paragraphs. Of course I would never say 'don't look at the original source' -- one always should. But I've seen enough to say "Please get it from the library" -- don't give him the $$.

732 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:33:20pm

re: #726 iceweasel

DF, not to go all Godwin on you, but people would (and did, and do) say the same thing about the 'totality' of Mein Kampf or Hitler's speeches about the 'Jewish Question': he portrayed the final solution and eliminationism as an 'unavoidable necessity' should 'the Jews bring about' a situation requiring it.

Steyn isn't Hitler, of course. But there are many reasons to find him suspect, and many writings of his that are just not acceptable.

i don't think she'd mind me saying this, (I hope not) but medaura and I had a private conversation some months ago in which we agreed that Steyn was a major danger to the conservative movement, precisely because so many otherwise rational people take him seriously and remain unaware of his associations and more extremist connections.

One final note before I go to bed. The issue of Islamization is not the same as the "Jewish issues" (which were not really problems at all, but lies and conspiracy theories). Islam has strain that are aggressive and predatory and they have been exported to Europe. The issue is now: How do we eliminate those strains without mass violence? A way must be found for Islam to move away from Wahabbism. That's the best way forward. Come tomorrow, I'll post some of what Theodore Dalrymple (who no one would mistake for a neo-fascist or tea bagger) has had to say about the interaction of Islam and the West.

Noye: I want to make very clear here that in no way have I attempted at any time during this thread to justify any act of violence: past, present, or future. I don't want people to be hurt or to die. I know that those who have responded to my comments know this, but with some subjects, things need to be made absolutely clear.

733 The Left  Sun, Jan 10, 2010 11:34:09pm

re: #730 Dark_Falcon

Put that info together, ice. I promise to read it once you give it to me.

I do have to say here that I do own America Alone, and it would take quite a lot to turn me away from it. The problems of Demography and the collision of Islam and the West are real issues and Steyn addressed them fairly well in my mind. That said, I will consider any arguments you put forward as objectively as I can.

Cheers DF-- I will. M had her own objections to Steyn. We agreed that in our opinions he posed the single biggest threat right now to 'conservative intellectuals', because he is taken to be one, respected, and should not be.
This was like 3 or 4 months ago and I've been meaning to pull some stuff from the left together in re: critiques of him; she was aware of much more. Then as you know personal life took me away from all this, i.e., Jimmah, getting married, etc.
He's very much on my radar still and was on hers.

734 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Jan 11, 2010 3:57:39am

re: #444 Dark_Falcon
Yes, and add to your words that the Palis keep raising the barrier. A month ago it they argued 'if no settlement freeze, then no talks' and last week they added on 'Israel must agree to '67 borders before talks resume'.

735 sandbox  Mon, Jan 11, 2010 4:36:27am

re: #732 Dark_Falcon

re your statement:

Islam has strain that are aggressive and predatory and they have been exported to Europe. The issue is now: How do we eliminate those strains without mass violence?

This assumes that "we"--the non Muslim world have the ability to somehow de-radicalize the radical islamists. I don't think we do. The radicals are highly motivated and much of the western world may become dhimmis before daring to take them on. It's scary.

That's why keeping out radical islamists --as a matter of stated policy-- is the way to go.

736 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jan 11, 2010 6:34:17am

re: #587 Conservative Moonbat

Because a Republican administration was obviously geared to properly convict him, while the current *Democrat* administration will be expected to wuss out in liberal fashion and let the current failed bomber out with just a wrist slap after he whines about simply being oppressed by the evil United States.

/(massive)

737 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Jan 11, 2010 6:50:12am

re: #735 sandbox

That's why keeping out radical islamists --as a matter of stated policy-- is the way to go.

Considering that many radical Islamists are in fact radical European (or for that matter radical American Islamists) Islamists, that's going to be quite tricky, too. The question is how we prevent the radicalisation in the first place.

738 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jan 11, 2010 7:04:16am

re: #737 oslogin

Home grown radicals has been an on-going issue for years.


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