Martian Tendrils

Science • Views: 3,366

A stunning image of the sand dunes near the North Pole of Mars, from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter’s HiRISE camera:

Phil Plait explains what you’re seeing:

But what are those weird tendril thingies?

In the Martian winter, carbon dioxide freezes out of the air (and you thought it was cold where you are). In the summer, that CO2 sublimates; that is, turns directly from a solid to a gas. When that happens the sand gets disturbed, and falls down the slopes in little channels, which spreads out when it hits the bottom. But this disturbs the red dust, too, which flows with the sand. When it’s all done, you get those feathery tendrils. Note that at the tendril tips, you see blotches of red; that’s probably from the lighter dust billowing a bit before settling down.

Now, you might think I’m making this all up. How do we know this stuff is flowing downhill like that? Ah, because in this picture we’ve caught it in the act! In this image, a closeup of a region just to the left of center of the big image, you can actually see the cloud of dust from an avalanche as it occurs.

Oh, baby. The cloud is only a few dozen meters across, and can’t be more than a few seconds old.

Jump to bottom

490 comments
1 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:12:15pm

Unreal, simply unreal.

2 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:14:11pm

Fascinating.

3 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:14:48pm

That is absolutely amazing!

4 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:15:28pm

I see a tanker!

5 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:15:45pm

TREES!

6 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:16:25pm

Ray Bradbury calling. He would appreciate permission to post in re-issue of "Martian Chronicles."

7 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:16:32pm

re: #5 albusteve

TREES!

Not even on Mars can you escape them! Muhahaha!
/:)

8 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:17:42pm

Someday that will be a most popular resort on Mars.

9 wee fury  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:17:55pm

Wow. Gasping in amazement.

10 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:19:00pm

re: #8 Rightwingconspirator

Someday that will be a most popular resort on Mars.


sand skiing!

11 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:20:05pm

Boiling Cookies 'n Cream, garnished with false eyelashes.

12 Basho  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:21:12pm

That's beautiful. Makes this even more depressing:
[Link: www.burtonmackenzie.com...]

13 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:21:36pm

re: #11 Silvergirl

Way are you drinking? I'd like to order the same. ;)

14 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:21:40pm

re: #7 Varek Raith

Not even on Mars can you escape them! Muhahaha!
/:)

I like trees, why would I want to escape from them?

15 Ojoe  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:21:41pm

So cold.

"It is so cold here at the end of all the ages."


—The Ice Queen of Narnia

16 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:22:09pm

re: #13 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF What are you drinking?

17 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:23:28pm

re: #12 Basho

That's beautiful. Makes this even more depressing:
[Link: www.burtonmackenzie.com...]

wow...a most bizarre relativity there

18 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:23:59pm

re: #15 Ojoe

So cold.

"It is so cold here at the end of all the ages."

—The Ice Queen of Narnia

Wait, Hillary was in Narnia?

19 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:24:14pm

re: #13 Rightwingconspirator

Way are you drinking? I'd like to order the same. ;)

Milkshake with eyelashes.

20 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:25:29pm

With all the information coming in on Mars it feels like it is our planet now......John Updike said it best in the Nat Geo article last year.....

Mars has become an ever nearer neighbor, a province of human knowledge.
21 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:28:30pm

Does Mars have earthquakes?

22 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:29:20pm

re: #21 MandyManners

Does Mars have earthquakes?

Ummm... Marsquakes?

23 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:29:43pm

re: #21 MandyManners

Does Mars have earthquakes?

Yes.

24 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:29:48pm

Phil is one of our greatest Scientist..He worked on the Hubble for 10 years..
Nobody trashes Phil without the Hoopster Completely trashing you..
I am proud of him..a great guy

25 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:30:32pm

Did someone say Martian Tendrils?

26 Basho  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:31:15pm

re: #20 Big Steve

With all the information coming in on Mars it feels like it is our planet now...

It feels like it except we can't actually feel it =/

27 windsagio  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:31:43pm

re: #26 Basho

If theres a pressing reason to go we'll go.

Dunno how we'll get back tho ;)

28 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:33:24pm

re: #20 Big Steve

With all the information coming in on Mars it feels like it is our planet now...John Updike said it best in the Nat Geo article last year...

time to invade!....
OOH RAH!

29 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:33:30pm

re: #23 Varek Raith

Yes.

Thanks!

30 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:34:02pm

re: #29 MandyManners

Thanks!

Your welcome!
:)

31 Escaped Hillbilly  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:35:09pm

Its all a fake don't you know. They filmed on a movie set and photoshopped it.
////

32 Basho  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:36:46pm

re: #27 windsagio

If theres a pressing reason to go we'll go.

Dunno how we'll get back tho ;)

That picture is as pressing a reason as any.

33 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:38:09pm

re: #32 Basho

That picture is as pressing a reason as any.

like the hamburger on the glossy menu?

34 windsagio  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:38:36pm

re: #32 Basho

Its not a very cost-effective reason ;)

35 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:40:11pm

re: #31 Escaped Hillbilly

Its all a fake don't you know. They filmed on a movie set and photoshopped it.
///

Exactly! THOSE PHOTOS ARE JUST DESIGNED TO LURE US INTO GOING TO SLEEP WHILE THE MARTIANS ASSEMBLE THEIR ARMADA!!!!1111111111

/

36 irving  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:40:19pm

While it's oddly amazing and fascinating, it's also kind of... well... icky looking. I'm vaguely reminded of a teenage boy's problem skin before he starts shaving regularly...

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:41:26pm

re: #36 irving

I still can't grow a mustache.

Son has a beard to his chest.

I tell people, "He got that from his mother."

Then? She hits me.

38 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:42:15pm

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Rightfully so!

39 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:42:43pm

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

Exactly! THOSE PHOTOS ARE JUST DESIGNED TO LURE US INTO GOING TO SLEEP WHILE THE MARTIANS ASSEMBLE THEIR ARMADA!!!1111111111

/

Silly terran, you speak as if we already haven't.
/

40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:42:43pm

WWSWS?

(what would Slim Whitman sing?)

41 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:42:50pm
42 Escaped Hillbilly  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:43:21pm

re: #39 Varek Raith

Silly terran, you speak as if we already haven't.
/

Where's the Doctor when you need him?

43 Basho  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:43:42pm

re: #34 windsagio

Its not a very cost-effective reason ;)

I don't think one can put a price on that ;)

44 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:43:52pm

re: #28 albusteve

time to invade!...
OOH RAH!

Earth First!

We'll strip-mine the other planets later.

45 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:43:59pm

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I still can't grow a mustache.

Son has a beard to his chest.

I tell people, "He got that from his mother."

Then? She hits me.

With an iron skillet!

46 windsagio  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:44:03pm

re: #43 Basho

fair enough!

47 SteveC  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:44:06pm

2 Americans Trapped

WASHINGTON – At least two Americans, one of them a young aid worker related to a retired senior U.S. naval officer, are believed to be among those trapped in wreckage after Haiti's earthquake.

48 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:44:15pm

re: #39 Varek Raith

Silly terran, you speak as if we already haven't.
/

You just haven't seen our new armed Mars rovers. Once they land:

All your tendril are belong to us!!

49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:44:35pm
50 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:45:17pm

re: #40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

WWSWS?

(what would Slim Whitman sing?)

This.

51 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:45:43pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

You just haven't seen our new armed Mars rovers. Once they land:

All your tendril are belong to us!!

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

You just haven't seen our new armed Mars rovers. Once they land:

All your tendril are belong to us!!

O'Neill: Well, we have a number of... shuttles.
Bra'tac: These shuttles, they are a formidable craft?
O'Neill: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bad day.

52 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:46:13pm

We still have the guys from Venus on our side:

53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:46:45pm
54 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:47:35pm

re: #49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

WWSWS?

ACK!

55 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:47:36pm
56 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:48:14pm

re: #55 Racer X

The Flame Nebula in Infrared

I see a tanker!

57 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:48:32pm

re: #52 RogueOne

OT for all Doberman lovers~~

58 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:48:49pm

re: #4 MandyManners

heh

59 kilroy  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:48:53pm

Looks like the Day of the Triffids. Great picture!

60 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:49:02pm

re: #51 Varek Raith

O'Neill: Well, we have a number of... shuttles.
Bra'tac: These shuttles, they are a formidable craft?
O'Neill: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bad day.

Well, it was lucky he was already inside that Goa-uld ship. If you remember, the first Goa-uld attack on the Tolen , one of those ships contained enough weaponry to destroy north of 20 heavy weapons emplacements simultaneously.

/One SG1 geek to another

61 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:49:40pm

re: #56 MandyManners

I see a tanker!

Hey pass that over here.

*toke*

62 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:49:51pm

I just watched the bucket list...Pretty great movie..
I love you special lizards....
Good night and be well and healthy..
-The hoopster

63 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:50:30pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Night, Hoopster.

64 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:50:31pm

A heartbreaking pic from Haiti...[Link: twitpic.com...]

65 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:51:17pm

re: #61 Racer X

Hey pass that over here.

*toke*

*passes Twinkies*

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:51:21pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

By that up-ding I mean, well... gosh.

67 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:51:24pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

A heartbreaking pic from Haiti...[Link: twitpic.com...]

Searing. And that's one of the tamer scenes going on right now.

68 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:51:41pm

re: #57 prairiefire

That looks like my boy. He managed to only kill one christmas animated stuffed toy this year. He loves those.

69 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:51:44pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

That might be the iconic shot for this tragedy. Good catch KT.

70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:52:21pm

re: #53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Frickin' Martians...

re: #54 MandyManners

ACK!

[Video]

MMTA.

71 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:53:11pm

austin_blue posted this in the previous thread.


After watching this, it's frighteningly apparent how bad this is.
72 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:53:43pm

Nite folks!

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:53:57pm

Do the Martians say, "The Good Mars"? Or "I scooped of a shovel full of mars and threw it to the side"?

74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:54:19pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

Biblical, man.

75 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:54:21pm

So, I turn on cable news to get some earthquake info on Haiti.

CNN - live coverage with an interview with Wyclef Jean.

Fox - health care debate with Greta.

Fail.

76 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:54:33pm

I thought MEN were from Mars. What's with the mascara eyelashes?

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:55:24pm

re: #75 Racer X

Epic Fail.

78 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:55:24pm

re: #76 Rightwingconspirator

I thought MEN were from Mars. What's with the mascara eyelashes?

Are you implying something about us Martian men?!?!
/Them's fighin' words!
//:)

79 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:55:39pm

Has anyone blamed the earthquake on Bush and Cheney yet?

80 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:56:45pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

A heartbreaking pic from Haiti...[Link: twitpic.com...]

Oh hell.

81 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:56:58pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

A heartbreaking pic from Haiti...[Link: twitpic.com...]

OMG, too sad for words.

(and btw, I got the link from the previous thread for the cookbook blog).

82 SteveC  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:57:16pm

CNN Twitterfeed: Médecins Sans Frontières teams in #Haiti have witnessed significant damage to its medical facilities, injuries to patients and staff.

Damn. They need those people badly.

83 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:57:34pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

I just watched the bucket list...Pretty great movie..
I love you special lizards...
Good night and be well and healthy..
-The hoopster

I just watched 'Inglorious Basterds' and was once again disappointed...B rate movie at best, more like a cartoon

84 Basho  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:57:37pm

re: #79 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has anyone blamed the earthquake on Bush and Cheney yet?

These days people are blaming it on health care reform.

85 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:57:58pm

re: #71 Varek Raith

austin_blue posted this in the previous thread.

[Video]
After watching this, it's frighteningly apparent how bad this is.

That much smoke and dust will mean things are very bad. I am reminded the most of the deaths in the Great San Francisco Earthquake of 1906 were from the fires that broke out and raged for several days.

Also noteworthy that girl making the vid was at least somewhat bilingual. And they were specking French that was fairly close to what I tried to learn in school.

86 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:58:41pm

re: #76 Rightwingconspirator

They're Goths.

87 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:59:36pm

re: #86 Floral Giraffe

Now where is metrosexual when we need him?

88 Dom  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:59:50pm

I thought maybe those were little trees, NASA.

89 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:01:53pm

Another photo from Haiti, twitpic

90 Escaped Hillbilly  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:02:21pm

Well, gotta go. My heart goes out to the people of Haiti. Stay safe all.

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:02:28pm

re: #88 Dom

I thought maybe those were little trees, NASA.

Happy little trees?

92 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:02:43pm

Just saw a report on CNN - guy was about 40 miles from Port au Prince - no major damage. Good news - perhaps the damage was not widespread.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:02:55pm

re: #89 reine.de.tout

My heart is breaking...

94 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:03:35pm

re: #89 reine.de.tout

That is just awful. Near tears.

95 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:04:51pm

Here's an aftermath video.

96 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:05:41pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Here's an aftermath video.

[Video]

Some disturbing scenes in that video, btw

97 SteveC  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:05:55pm

The Reputable sources on Twitter (NPR, CNN, etc.) aren't twittering as much right now. Battery power probably drying up. Some pics/info coming out, but a lot of it is "Donate Now by texting...!" links.

98 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:06:06pm

re: #81 reine.de.tout

(and btw, I got the link from the previous thread for the cookbook blog).


Thanks.

You might also consider putting this one up too if you think it's interesting enough.

99 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:06:15pm
100 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:06:35pm

re: #89 reine.de.toutre: #64 Killgore Trout

Hey a call out to the senior Lizards. Has LGF ever done a collection for a specific charity or Red Cross after a tragedy?

101 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:07:57pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Thanks.

You might also consider putting this one up too if you think it's interesting enough.

got it!

102 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:08:24pm

re: #93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My heart is breaking...

Yes. Those poor nations that get hit with earthquakes of that magnitude don't have a chance with their rickety buildings and lack of emergency workers and $$ in general. I feel for the hysteria they're experiencing, running around searching for family members, and the ones grieving their already dead loved ones.

103 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:08:26pm

re: #93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My heart is breaking...

and they have nowhere to go...they cannot escape the living hell the first world has cursed them with...Haitians are dirt, but Mexicans are golden...Mexico, one of the potentially richest countries in this hemisphere...the Haitians are doomed

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:08:39pm

re: #100 Rightwingconspirator

We listen to advice on where to send money and stuff, and pay attention to the Lizards we trust.

That's been my experience.

105 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:08:45pm

re: #100 Rightwingconspirator

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Hey a call out to the senior Lizards. Has LGF ever done a collection for a specific charity or Red Cross after a tragedy?

Before my time
but I heard of a Katrina collection that did not go well.
So I think such an effort is not allowed via LGF.

106 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:09:35pm

Donate to the local Red Cross.

107 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:09:35pm

re: #104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #105 reine.de.tout

Thanks.

108 swamprat  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:10:06pm

re: #100 Rightwingconspirator

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Hey a call out to the senior Lizards. Has LGF ever done a collection for a specific charity or Red Cross after a tragedy?

Don't go there.... Lots of dragons. Just encourage donations and suggest charities that you know to be reputable.

109 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:10:13pm

re: #105 reine.de.tout

Before my time
but I heard of a Katrina collection that did not go well.
So I think such an effort is not allowed via LGF.

there is no need...plenty of charities out there

110 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:10:16pm

re: #106 Racer X

Donate to the local Red Cross.

That's probably the best way to do it.

111 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:11:29pm

re: #83 albusteve

I just watched 'Inglorious Basterds' and was once again disappointed...B rate movie at best, more like a cartoon

That movie sucked. It had about 3 minutes of awesome Quentin Tarantino Allies-on-nazis violence and 2 fucking boring as hell hours of people chit-chatting in French and German. Je comprende Français und ich kann Deutsch and the conversation was the fucking pits.

112 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:11:34pm

re: #110 Killgore Trout

That's probably the best way to do it.

or to a church that has a direct pipeline into the country

113 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:11:38pm

re: #108 swamprat

Thanks, thats why I ask. Red Cross will be my next stop online.

114 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:11:56pm

I smell tax revenue!
*licking chops*
- CA Politician

Key vote supports recreational marijuana use

California lawmakers on Tuesday endorsed an overhaul of the state's marijuana laws by pushing forward a bill to legalize adult recreational use and taxation of the drug.

115 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:11:58pm

re: #109 albusteve

there is no need...plenty of charities out there

Exactly.
Red Cross if you're of a mind
Churches here will be taking collections, I'm sure. I know mine will.

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:12:09pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Page of photos

Notice in the pictures some of the faces? Some people seem to have the expression, "Yeah. Sucked yesterday too."

How I feel for these folks.

117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:12:59pm

re: #111 Alouette

Really? I loved it.

118 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:13:05pm

re: #111 Alouette

That movie sucked. It had about 3 minutes of awesome Quentin Tarantino Allies-on-nazis violence and 2 fucking boring as hell hours of people chit-chatting in French and German. Je comprende Français und ich kann Deutsch and the conversation was the fucking pits.

I was disappointed....Pitt was awful and the plot was Mickey Mouse

119 jaunte  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:13:07pm

The Red Cross is accepting donations for Haiti through their International Response Fund.
[Link: newsroom.redcross.org...]

120 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:15:06pm

More Haiti photos/video - some graphic, some already posted here.

121 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:15:21pm

re: #118 albusteve

I was disappointed...Pitt was awful and the plot was Mickey Mouse

Oh who cares about the plot. I was expecting more violence and less chitchat!

The plot of "Avatar" sucks too, who cares, I can't wait to see it in 3D.

Plots just get in the way of awesome special effect. You want PLOTS go rent an old Hitchcock movie.

122 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:15:22pm

re: #114 Racer X

AB390 would allow possession, sale and cultivation of marijuana for people over 21, and impose a $50-an-ounce sales tax, much like taxes on tobacco and alcohol. The California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control would be tasked with regulation.

Hmm...

I wonder how many drug cartels will face stiff fines and penalties for not paying their taxes?

Hmmm..

123 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:17:13pm

re: #79 Mad Al-Jaffee

Has anyone blamed the earthquake on Bush and Cheney yet?

the usual suspects...

124 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:17:41pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Notice in the pictures some of the faces? Some people seem to have the expression, "Yeah. Sucked yesterday too."

How I feel for these folks.

I do too, FBV.
This is so awful.
They have nothing.
And now even less.
And no resources for assistance!
tho I'm sure assistance is on its way

125 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:18:00pm

re: #121 Alouette

Oh who cares about the plot. I was expecting more violence and less chitchat!

The plot of "Avatar" sucks too, who cares, I can't wait to see it in 3D.

Plots just get in the way of awesome special effect. You want PLOTS go rent an old Hitchcock movie.

yeah, I'm old fashioned like that...movies are just elaborate video games now...I have zero interest in 'Avatar'....I could care less

126 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:19:52pm

re: #123 brookly red

the usual suspects...

I nominated Palin...just because...but it didn't go anywhere, obviously she has a way to go yet

127 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:20:12pm

Did anyone catch Sarah Palin's interview with Bill O'Reilly tonight? I've got it Tivoed, and I need to know if its worth the time to watch it.

128 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:20:37pm

re: #84 Basho

These days people are blaming it on health care reform.

the act that the senate is proposing has been blamed for earthquakes through out history....

129 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:21:03pm

re: #114 Racer X

I smell tax revenue!
*licking chops*
- CA Politician

the entire notion is obscene...I hate the feds

130 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:21:12pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Page of photos

I'd like to fly down there and bring all the orphans home.

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:21:54pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Notice in the pictures some of the faces? Some people seem to have the expression, "Yeah. Sucked yesterday too."

How I feel for these folks.

Look at her face. Think she's ever had a good day?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should...

132 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:22:42pm

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Look at her face. Think she's ever had a good day?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should...

Odds are your read is accurate.

133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:22:48pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Douglas Adams would say, "Eh. Mostly Harmless."

134 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:22:59pm

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Look at her face. Think she's ever had a good day?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should...

FBV - she looks resigned.
and without hope.

135 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:23:16pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Did anyone catch Sarah Palin's interview with Bill O'Reilly tonight? I've got it Tivoed, and I need to know if its worth the time to watch it.

oh for gods sake...you are gonna watch it anyway, who are you kidding?....you NEED to know?....know what?...you blog 12 hours a day, you can make a few minutes for Palin can't you?

136 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:24:06pm

re: #133 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Douglas Adams would say, "Eh. Mostly Harmless."

Before or after the Earth blows up?

/Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference

137 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:24:27pm

re: #114 Racer X

I smell tax revenue!
*licking chops*
- CA Politician


I can't help laughing about when these people find out what it is going to do to their auto insurance rates...

138 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:24:28pm

Tweets I'm getting indicate that government officials haven't yet made any statements. although that might be very difficult to do with no power.

139 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:24:59pm

re: #135 albusteve

oh for gods sake...you are gonna watch it anyway, who are you kidding?...you NEED to know?...know what?...you blog 12 hours a day, you can make a few minutes for Palin can't you?

12 hours? Maybe 4 to six once in a while, but never 12.

140 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:25:14pm

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Look at her face. Think she's ever had a good day?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should...

Grinding poverty....

141 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:25:53pm

re: #134 reine.de.tout

FBV - she looks resigned.
and without hope.

The Haitians live in a permanent disaster zone, a natural disaster like this only adds to the misery. The majority live a very bleak and primitive existence.

142 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:26:39pm

This site appears to be a real-time image search for Haiti.

143 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:27:15pm

re: #141 Bagua

The Haitians live in a permanent disaster zone, a natural disaster like this only adds to the misery. The majority live a very bleak and primitive existence.

They just had the floods in 2004, followed by the famine in 2007 - now this.

144 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:27:23pm

What I keep seeing is the number of people wandering around, staring helplessly at piles of cement while they have nothing but their bare hands. They are sheep without a shepherd. I think they could get a great deal done with good leadership. Which they haven't got.

In lieu of that, we can give what we can.

145 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:27:48pm

re: #138 reine.de.tout

Tweets I'm getting indicate that government officials haven't yet made any statements. although that might be very difficult to do with no power.

Is the National Place the seat of government or the president's home?

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:28:01pm

re: #144 EmmmieG

I really needed your avatar right now. Thanks.

147 deadletterboy  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:28:17pm

This is incredible.

148 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:28:31pm

re: #145 MandyManners

Is the National Place the seat of government or the president's home?

I think that might be "National Palace"? If so, then I would think it's one or the other that you mentioned.

149 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:29:09pm

re: #148 reine.de.tout

I think that might be "National Palace"? If so, then I would think it's one or the other that you mentioned.

Palace.

150 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:29:21pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

12 hours? Maybe 4 to six once in a while, but never 12.

excuse me for exaggerating bro

151 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:29:54pm

re: #150 albusteve

excuse me for exaggerating bro

No problem.

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:30:24pm

re: #148 reine.de.tout

I think that might be "National Palace"? If so, then I would think it's one or the other that you mentioned.

It's gone.

153 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:30:46pm

re: #143 Thanos

They just had the floods in 2004, followed by the famine in 2007 - now this.

Again, even without the floods, famine, hurricanes and now earthquake, their lives were already a hopeless disaster.

154 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:32:01pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

No, but here's an Agence France Press article...
[Link: news.ninemsn.com.au...]

155 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:32:22pm

re: #138 reine.de.tout

Tweets I'm getting indicate that government officials haven't yet made any statements. although that might be very difficult to do with no power.

Reminds one of NO after Katrina. No power, no access. Dreadful black hole of info.

We really need to know if the airport and port facilities are usable. The airport allows quick relief, but if you are going to feed 1 million people, it's got to come in by ship. If the port cargo handling facilities are down (cranes, rail distribution lines, &c), there is the potential for a real catastrophe.

156 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:33:03pm

re: #153 Bagua

Again, even without the floods, famine, hurricanes and now earthquake, their lives were already a hopeless disaster.

once again, they need to get off that island...not all of them but some few millions...it's uninhabitable and the US could certainly absorb our share...I'm getting pissed

157 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:33:53pm

re: #155 austin_blue

Reminds one of NO after Katrina. No power, no access. Dreadful black hole of info.

We really need to know if the airport and port facilities are usable. The airport allows quick relief, but if you are going to feed 1 million people, it's got to come in by ship. If the port cargo handling facilities are down (cranes, rail distribution lines, &c), there is the potential for a real catastrophe.

water. fouled water does bad things real big & real quick.

158 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:34:06pm

re: #154 Floral Giraffe

No, but here's an Agence France Press article...
[Link: news.ninemsn.com.au...]

I watched part of it. Neither good nor bad, though she didn't really say much. Fox has broken away for coverage of the earthquake now,

159 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:34:47pm

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's gone.

But what did it contain? The president's residence or the seat of government?

160 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:35:00pm

re: #157 brookly red

water. fouled water does bad things real big & real quick.

And sewer. Yes. Good point.

161 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:35:19pm

re: #156 albusteve

once again, they need to get off that island...not all of them but some few millions...it's uninhabitable and the US could certainly absorb our share...I'm getting pissed

the other half of that island is quite habitable...

162 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:35:25pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

Did you expect much?
No?
Good, because, that's what I think you are going to get.

163 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:35:45pm

A few more photos here, here and here.

First two are graphic and disturbing.

164 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:36:01pm

re: #162 Floral Giraffe

Did you expect much?
No?
Good, because, that's what I think you are going to get.

This is pretty cynical of me, but if a celebrity had been down there, it would be wall-to-wall.

165 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:36:10pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Dunno. Just know it's gone.

166 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:36:25pm

re: #163 reine.de.tout

A few more photos here, here and here.

First two are graphic and disturbing.

Disaster porn.

167 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:36:28pm

re: #161 brookly red

And this half of the island COULD be quite habitable, with fewer people, and a real government, among other things....

168 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:36:50pm

re: #155 austin_blue

Reminds one of NO after Katrina. No power, no access. Dreadful black hole of info.

We really need to know if the airport and port facilities are usable. The airport allows quick relief, but if you are going to feed 1 million people, it's got to come in by ship. If the port cargo handling facilities are down (cranes, rail distribution lines, &c), there is the potential for a real catastrophe.

the difference being, 50 miles from NOLA and you got Spuds Bar, NFL football, Safeway grocery stores and people to take you in....there is no comparison...the US will fly in millions of MREs to Haiti so nobody will starve but their problems are far greater than this earthquake...they can't get off the island because we won't allow it

169 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:37:49pm

Parliament meets in another building so I reckon it's the president's residence.

170 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:37:53pm

re: #157 brookly red

water. fouled water does bad things real big & real quick.

desalination...it's the new pink of the future

171 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:38:42pm

re: #163 reine.de.tout

A few more photos here, here and here.

First two are graphic and disturbing.

The first pic is a horror. It just hurts.

172 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:39:23pm

re: #167 Floral Giraffe

And this half of the island COULD be quite habitable, with fewer people, and a real government, among other things...

a lot of people can live quite well on an island, (I do) population is not the problem, the problem is the government... same as on my island but much worse.

173 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #156 albusteve

once again, they need to get off that island...not all of them but some few millions...it's uninhabitable and the US could certainly absorb our share...I'm getting pissed

Absolutely correct.

174 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

The first pic is a horror. It just hurts.

It does.
Prayers tonight for the people of Haiti, and especially for those whose horror has been so graphically recorded.

Just too sad for words, really.

175 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:40:27pm

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?

176 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:40:35pm

All prayers for the dead and dying. Dear Lord Jesus, grant your strength and mercy to the people of Haiti.

177 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:40:46pm

re: #156 albusteve

once again, they need to get off that island...not all of them but some few millions...it's uninhabitable and the US could certainly absorb our share...I'm getting pissed

Is that island really uninhabitable? There's nothing there?

178 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:18pm

re: #176 prairiefire

All prayers for the dead and dying. Dear Lord Jesus, grant your strength and mercy to the people of Haiti.

Amen.

179 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:23pm

re: #161 brookly red

the other half of that island is quite habitable...

Yes, that's the part that was not punished.

180 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:24pm

re: #176 prairiefire

And while you're at it, send a little memo to your followers in the rich countries to do something.

181 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:54pm

re: #175 albusteve

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?

Their peacekeeping HQ there is destroyed. Most likely they've taken heavy losses of their own.

182 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:55pm

re: #177 reine.de.tout

Is that island really uninhabitable? There's nothing there?

correct...it cannot even begin to sustain it's population...corruption, disease, misery

183 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:56pm

re: #175 albusteve

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?

no they aren't interested in Haiti... no money to be made there.

184 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:41:59pm

re: #177 reine.de.tout

Is that island really uninhabitable? There's nothing there?

The Dominican side of the island is quite prosperous. Emergency aid should be coming from the DR first.

185 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:43:00pm

re: #184 Alouette

The Dominican side of the island is quite prosperous. Emergency aid should be coming from the DR first.

If that's true, why can't the Haitian side make a go of it?
Why are those people in such misery?

186 jaunte  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:43:13pm

re: #175 albusteve

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?



Former president Bill Clinton, now a UN special envoy for Haiti, said his 'office and the rest of the UN system are monitoring the situation, and we are committed to do whatever we can to assist the people of Haiti in their relief, rebuilding and recovery efforts.'
[Link: bigpondnews.com...]
187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:43:14pm

I have to leave you.

In whatever way you pray or wish the best to, please do it hard tonight.

It may even appear to go unnoticed. But at least you tried. One thing's for sure; it won't hurt.

Give if you can. Pray if you do.

188 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:44:04pm

re: #175 albusteve

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?

Their building is gone.

189 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:44:06pm

re: #182 albusteve

correct...it cannot even begin to sustain it's population...corruption, disease, misery

corruption yes, but the disease & misery ends at the border.

190 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:44:23pm

re: #185 reine.de.tout

If that's true, why can't the Haitian side make a go of it?
Why are those people in such misery?

They were internationally isolated for a long time. The US did not even recognize Haiti until 1862.

191 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:44:43pm

re: #186 jaunte

I don't give a rat's ass about Bill Clinton...thanks for the link tho

192 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:45:04pm

re: #185 reine.de.tout

If that's true, why can't the Haitian side make a go of it?
Why are those people in such misery?

It started with the French, but really every major power in the western world has jacked with Haiti at one point or another. The US supported a really brutal regime there for a long time.

Google "Papa Doc" or "Ton Ton Macoutes"

193 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:45:31pm

re: #177 reine.de.tout

Is that island really uninhabitable? There's nothing there?

Absolutely, devastated, deforested, the soil has washed into the sea and even the reefs are dead from the silt of what was formerly soil. It is a wasteland.

With a massive effort at restoration, the Haiti could support 1/20th of its population. It is a disaster zone without a disaster.

194 jaunte  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:45:56pm

re: #191 albusteve

That and this mention are the most i could find about UN response:

UN chief Ban Ki-moon said he was "very concerned" over the plight of Haitians and of the UN staff serving in the nation.
[Link: www.poder360.com...]
195 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:45:58pm

re: #192 Thanos

It started with the French, but really every major power in the western world has jacked with Haiti at one point or another. The US supported a really brutal regime there for a long time.

Google "Papa Doc" or "Ton Ton Macoutes"

omg...what a mess that was

196 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:48:39pm

Well, some good news for me. I am getting a "new" car. Actually it's an old car, an '87 Mazda RX7, but driven by the proverbial little old lady and meticulously maintained, and 25,000 miles on it.

85-year-old friend of my mom's.

197 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:48:40pm

re: #175 albusteve

what's the UN up to?...anybody heard from those crooks yet?

They've been there for over a decade, trying to keep a lid on the anarchy that is just below the surface. The UN has been doing yeoman work in Haiti. Cut them some slack. Reports indicate their HQ in PauP was leveled.

198 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:49:05pm

re: #192 Thanos

It started with the French, but really every major power in the western world has jacked with Haiti at one point or another. The US supported a really brutal regime there for a long time.

Google "Papa Doc" or "Ton Ton Macoutes"

Yes, I recall Papa Doc Duvalier, and Baby Doc who's in - is it France?
Slightly more than 20 years, I guess, since Baby Doc was ousted.

199 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:49:15pm

re: #194 jaunte

That and this mention are the most i could find about UN response:

Moon is concerned...nice...was he concerned yesterday? or last month?...I hate the fucking UN...and I hate it that we support the corruption, fraud, and outright deceit....sitting in NYC condemning Israel all fucking day, while Haiti rots away

200 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:49:48pm

re: #197 austin_blue

They've been there for over a decade, trying to keep a lid on the anarchy that is just below the surface. The UN has been doing yeoman work in Haiti. Cut them some slack. Reports indicate their HQ in PauP was leveled.


methinks the lid will be off the anarchy now...

201 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:50:18pm

re: #196 Alouette

Well, some good news for me. I am getting a "new" car. Actually it's an old car, an '87 Mazda RX7, but driven by the proverbial little old lady and meticulously maintained, and 25,000 miles on it.

85-year-old friend of my mom's.

Should be a great car for you.
It may take premium rather than regular gas though - check before you fill it up.

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:50:20pm

Hey all!

I really don't want to share what I think Mars and the tendrils look like.

Has Haiti been discussed? I feel so bad for the whole country.

How are you-all?

203 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:50:49pm

re: #192 Thanos

It started with the French, but really every major power in the western world has jacked with Haiti at one point or another. The US supported a really brutal regime there for a long time.

Google "Papa Doc" or "Ton Ton Macoutes"

The Duvalier family looted that country for decades.

204 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:50:50pm

re: #197 austin_blue

They've been there for over a decade, trying to keep a lid on the anarchy that is just below the surface. The UN has been doing yeoman work in Haiti. Cut them some slack. Reports indicate their HQ in PauP was leveled.

the question was rhetorical...thanks anyway but I will never cut the UN any slack

205 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:51:40pm

re: #185 reine.de.tout

If that's true, why can't the Haitian side make a go of it?
Why are those people in such misery?

Since their revolution Haiti was boycotted by the Americans and Europeans. Instead of trade they were forced to pay ransom. The whites of that time could not tolerate a free, Black nation in their region. Instead of welcoming a fellow revolutionary people who, like the Americans had thrown off European rule and gained independence, they were instead treated like a pariah nation.

With no resources they were forced to burn the trees to cook. With the persecution and the direct meddling of the Europeans and Americans their society became ruled by thieves and dictators.

It is an ecological and social disaster of the first order.

206 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:52:56pm

The history of slavery in the islands was REALLY brutal. I think Haiti has never recovered from colonization.

207 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:53:42pm

re: #130 MandyManners

I'd like to fly down there and bring all the orphans home.

Have you noticed? Where are the children?

208 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:53:58pm

They got off to a bad start by emulating what they had learned from France and it's been coup after coup ever since. The Aristide no Aristide period then Aristide again seemed to have stopped that, but during the Famine they again overthrew the gov't iirc.

Time for me to get some sleeps, test calls in the am.

209 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:54:37pm

the DR is reinforcing the border...

210 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:54:38pm

re: #204 albusteve

the question was rhetorical...thanks anyway but I will never cut the UN any slack

That's a shame. While I agree that the org is fundamentally dysfunctional, their heart is in the right place, especially in countries like Haiti.

211 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:55:21pm

re: #203 austin_blue

The Duvalier family looted that country for decades.

too bad the US cannot be the worlds police force...those boys should have been taken away in chains, but politics are so fussy sometimes eh?

212 swamprat  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:56:35pm

re: #210 austin_blue

I recommend the Salvation Army.

213 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:57:49pm

re: #211 albusteve

too bad the US cannot be the worlds police force...those boys should have been taken away in chains, but politics are so fussy sometimes eh?

The US had a love / hate relationship there. We publicly decried them and behind the scenes supported them -- even though he was a cult of personality populist fascist, Kennedy considered Papa Doc a bulwark against communism.

214 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:57:59pm

re: #210 austin_blue

That's a shame. While I agree that the org is fundamentally dysfunctional, their heart is in the right place, especially in countries like Haiti.

there is little proof or record of that...sitting in some compound with your little blue hat, raping away while you stuff yourself on the local fare and wait til your shift is up?

215 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:58:49pm

re: #211 albusteve

too bad the US cannot be the worlds police force...those boys should have been taken away in chains, but politics are so fussy sometimes eh?

No, we don't want to be the world's police force. I do understand your sentiments, tho.

216 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:58:59pm

re: #209 brookly red

the DR is reinforcing the border...

Nice. Their neighbor has a calamity, and they react by clamping down to prevent people from obtaining help. Though we'd likely do the same thing with Mexico in the event of a major disaster there, too.

217 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:59:00pm

re: #213 Thanos

The US had a love / hate relationship there. We publicly decried them and behind the scenes supported them -- even though he was a cult of personality populist fascist, Kennedy considered Papa Doc a bulwark against communism.

I am sure that Uncle Hugo is watching the situation closely...

218 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:59:16pm

re: #213 Thanos

The US had a love / hate relationship there. We publicly decried them and behind the scenes supported them -- even though he was a cult of personality populist fascist, Kennedy considered Papa Doc a bulwark against communism.

thanks Thanos for some clarity

219 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 8:59:43pm

re: #214 albusteve

there is little proof or record of that...sitting in some compound with your little blue hat, raping away while you stuff yourself on the local fare and wait til your shift is up?

And having fun with the little boys? I have little respect for the "diplomats". I think the rank and file probably are ok, just trying to do what they can and get a paycheck.

220 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:00:11pm

re: #202 ggt

Hey all!

I really don't want to share what I think Mars and the tendrils look like.

Has Haiti been discussed? I feel so bad for the whole country.

How are you-all?

My aunt goes to Haiti often through her church to do volunteer work. I called an luckily she was not there at the time. Although she is broken up considering the people she knows there.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:00:14pm

re: #213 Thanos

The US had a love / hate relationship there. We publicly decried them and behind the scenes supported them -- even though he was a cult of personality populist fascist, Kennedy considered Papa Doc a bulwark against communism.

The number of scumbags the United States got into bed with over the years just because they weren't Commies sometimes boggles the mind.

222 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:00:22pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

Nice. Their neighbor has a calamity, and they react by clamping down to prevent people from obtaining help. Though we'd likely do the same thing with Mexico in the event of a major disaster there, too.

one would think, but it's a much smaller border.

223 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:00:54pm

re: #215 ggt

No, we don't want to be the world's police force. I do understand your sentiments, tho.

I don't either...but in the meantime people like Mugabe thrive and even hob nob around the climate talks as if nothing is wrong...it's obscene

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:01:18pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

Nice. Their neighbor has a calamity, and they react by clamping down to prevent people from obtaining help. Though we'd likely do the same thing with Mexico in the event of a major disaster there, too.

We would, in a heartbeat. And the DR does not have our resources. Makes me want to scream anyway,

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:01:28pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

The number of scumbags the United States got into bed with over the years just because they weren't Commies sometimes boggles the mind.

The communist threat was very real for a time. No one was sure how Cuba was going to pan-out. We had civil rights issues of our own. Hindsight is always 20/20.

226 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:01:40pm

re: #217 brookly red

I am sure that Uncle Hugo is watching the situation closely...

good point

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:01:44pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

The number of scumbags the United States got into bed with over the years just because they weren't Commies sometimes boggles the mind.

I was about to say almost exactly that.

228 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:02:00pm

re: #205 Bagua

Since their revolution Haiti was boycotted by the Americans and Europeans. Instead of trade they were forced to pay ransom. The whites of that time could not tolerate a free, Black nation in their region. Instead of welcoming a fellow revolutionary people who, like the Americans had thrown off European rule and gained independence, they were instead treated like a pariah nation.

With no resources they were forced to burn the trees to cook. With the persecution and the direct meddling of the Europeans and Americans their society became ruled by thieves and dictators.

It is an ecological and social disaster of the first order.

Word! Well said.

Odd fact:

In 1969, Rawlings moved its baseball-manufacturing plant from Puerto Rico to Haiti to take advantage of lower labor costs -- workers earned a whopping $0.09 per ball.

After the fall of Jean-Claude Duvalier’s dictatorship in 1986, Rawlings made the decision to exit the country, and it opened a plant in Turrialba, Costa Rica the following year.

[Link: www.minyanville.com...]

Yes, that's less than 1 penny per major league baseball manufactured.

Fancy that.

229 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:02:00pm

re: #206 ggt

The history of slavery in the islands was REALLY brutal. I think Haiti has never recovered from colonization.

Not only the slavery, but the persecution they received for the two centuries after they freed themselves from slavery was a direct cause of the steady decline. It could have been very different, in the early years they were actually helping other countries.

200 years of looting and boycott and the Haitian part of the Island is destroyed.

They had a proud history, but no resources to survive a boycott by the world.

Look up Simon Bolivar, he found refuge in newly free Haiti where he befriended Alexandre Petion, who actually sent Haitian soldiers and supplies to help him in his efforts to free Venezuela, on the promise that Bolivar would end slavery there.

230 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:02:23pm

re: #223 albusteve

I don't either...but in the meantime people like Mugabe thrive and even hob nob around the climate talks as if nothing is wrong...it's obscene

it's reality. Man's inhumanity to Man is something I have a very hard time with. In this respect reality really does suck.

231 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:03:01pm

re: #208 Thanos

They got off to a bad start by emulating what they had learned from France and it's been coup after coup ever since. The Aristide no Aristide period then Aristide again seemed to have stopped that, but during the Famine they again overthrew the gov't iirc.

Time for me to get some sleeps, test calls in the am.

Night Thanos.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:03:26pm

re: #225 ggt

The communist threat was very real for a time. No one was sure how Cuba was going to pan-out. We had civil rights issues of our own. Hindsight is always 20/20.

True. But our vision was very deliberately clouded, for a very long time.

233 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:04:10pm

re: #232 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But our vision was very deliberately clouded, for a very long time.

How so?

234 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:05:03pm

re: #230 ggt

it's reality. Man's inhumanity to Man is something I have a very hard time with. In this respect reality really does suck.

I can be very Draconian when it come to exploitation and death...Mugabe has no right to live on this earth

235 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:06:11pm

re: #226 albusteve

good point

and we will be sending aid even if it is to shut him out... doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

236 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:06:12pm

re: #214 albusteve

there is little proof or record of that...sitting in some compound with your little blue hat, raping away while you stuff yourself on the local fare and wait til your shift is up?

Harsh. Too harsh. Their work in Haiti has been exemplary, at the loss of numerous peacekeepers.

237 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:06:52pm

re: #234 albusteve

I can be very Draconian when it come to exploitation and death...Mugabe has no right to live on this earth

There will always be Mugabes or Mugabe wannabes. Monsters in our Midst.

238 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:06:53pm

re: #218 albusteve

thanks Thanos for some clarity

Thanos always lends clarity.

239 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:07:38pm

re: #237 ggt

There will always be Mugabes or Mugabe wannabes. Monsters in our Midst.

and a lot closer than you would like to think...

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:08:08pm

re: #233 ggt

How so?

Let's just say that I think we backed some very wrong horses in Latin America in the 80s, to start with. Were there any good horses running? Maybe not. We still found some stinkers.

241 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:08:20pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

Nice. Their neighbor has a calamity, and they react by clamping down to prevent people from obtaining help. Though we'd likely do the same thing with Mexico in the event of a major disaster there, too.

No, DF - we send help.

242 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:09:04pm

re: #228 austin_blue

Exactly, treated as slaves. What little resources they had (bauxite) essentially looted.

The US invaded and occupied Haiti for 19 years, after a century of embargo. The puppet administration eliminated the Haitian constitutional system, restored effective slavery, and build the army which ruled after the US left and led to the Duvalier dictatorship, with eventual US backing and funding.

The US Coast Guard of course, maintains a blockade of the island to prevent attempts to flee.

243 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:09:06pm

re: #234 albusteve

I can be very Draconian when it come to exploitation and death...Mugabe has no right to live on this earth

We got rid of the Monster Saddam and his two little monsters. We can only do so much without just cause or an interest. As "the only remaining superpower" we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

244 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:09:47pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

Thanos always lends clarity.

he does and I appreciate him immensely

245 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:10:10pm

re: #229 Bagua

Not only the slavery, but the persecution they received for the two centuries after they freed themselves from slavery was a direct cause of the steady decline. It could have been very different, in the early years they were actually helping other countries.

200 years of looting and boycott and the Haitian part of the Island is destroyed.

They had a proud history, but no resources to survive a boycott by the world.

Look up Simon Bolivar, he found refuge in newly free Haiti where he befriended Alexandre Petion, who actually sent Haitian soldiers and supplies to help him in his efforts to free Venezuela, on the promise that Bolivar would end slavery there.

Everything you have said tonight is absolutely spot on. The history is stark. The benign neglect is there for all to see. What can be done with a failed state of 9,000,000 people?

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:10:24pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

Let's just say that I think we backed some very wrong horses in Latin America in the 80s, to start with. Were there any good horses running? Maybe not. We still found some stinkers.

The political chess board is played many moves in advance by minds more adept than mine. I don't begin to understand the machinations of international relations.

247 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:10:57pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

Let's just say that I think we backed some very wrong horses in Latin America in the 80s, to start with. Were there any good horses running? Maybe not. We still found some stinkers.

We support freedom and democracy!

Except when we support the exact opposite.

248 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:11:20pm

re: #246 ggt

The political chess board is played many moves in advance by minds more adept than mine. I don't begin to understand the machinations of international relations.

buy low, sell high... same as it ever was.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:11:47pm

re: #243 ggt

We got rid of the Monster Saddam and his two little monsters. We can only do so much without just cause or an interest. As "the only remaining superpower" we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

There are limits on what we can do, and what we will do.

But sometimes I wish we could just push through one popular mini-regime change once in a while. You know. Take a teeny fraction of what we spend on Iraq, remove Mugabe, and let some nice sensible housewife run the damn country. It would be cheap, and very heartening.

//

250 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:11:53pm

re: #248 brookly red

buy low, sell high... same as it ever was.

again, sometimes reality does suck.

251 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:12:14pm

re: #243 ggt

We got rid of the Monster Saddam and his two little monsters. We can only do so much without just cause or an interest. As "the only remaining superpower" we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I'm not prone to idealism but in some cases I prefer intervention on behalf of the innocent

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:12:34pm

re: #246 ggt

The political chess board is played many moves in advance by minds more adept than mine. I don't begin to understand the machinations of international relations.

Usually, I start to think I'm getting there, and then I realize I'm wrong.

;)

253 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:12:38pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

There are limits on what we can do, and what we will do.

But sometimes I wish we could just push through one popular mini-regime change once in a while. You know. Take a teeny fraction of what we spend on Iraq, remove Mugabe, and let some nice sensible housewife run the damn country. It would be cheap, and very heartening.

//

and somehow cover it up so it looks like it happened organically without our intervention?

//

254 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:13:09pm

re: #251 albusteve

I'm not prone to idealism but in some cases I prefer intervention on behalf of the innocent

The road to hell . . . .

255 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:13:32pm

Here's a very good brief on Haiti by Anthony Daniels, who also writes under the pen name of Theodore Dalrymple:

A wretched place on earth: the agony of Haiti, unending and worsening

256 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:13:39pm

re: #254 ggt

The road to hell . . .


...ends in Haiti.

257 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:13:57pm

re: #243 ggt

We got rid of the Monster Saddam and his two little monsters. We can only do so much without just cause or an interest. As "the only remaining superpower" we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Nobody's tooting America's horn about what we did to Chile. We'll just sweep that little event under the rug...

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:14:56pm

re: #253 ggt

and somehow cover it up so it looks like it happened organically without our intervention?

//

Naaah--do it in the daylight, and then let the Elks do the fundraising to fix the new nation's economy. It would be a national project. Everyone could help.

/

259 albusteve  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:15:53pm

I'm out like Papa Doc

260 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:16:25pm

re: #234 albusteve

I can be very Draconian when it come to exploitation and death...Mugabe has no right to live on this earth

Agreed. But...

But how many others that I think that of will you also think that of? And there in is the real problem.

If there were justice in this world, then Papa Doc should have been in the equal of Gitmo once upon a time as most there are pikers next to him but He Said He Was Anti-Communist so his evil was ok. Lot's of others have done the same, before & since.

Had my family lived in Chile at the wrong time my parents, simple blue collar workers who vote Democrat, would have been murdered and my sisters and I would have been tortured and either 1) executed as well or 2) "been adopted" by good fascist families.

I tend to be very suspicious of both right & left claims to truth. I believe in leftist economics but carry a .357 Magnum daily...

William

261 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:16:29pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

Naaah--do it in the daylight, and then let the Elks do the fundraising to fix the new nation's economy. It would be a national project. Everyone could help.

/

Has Tom Clancy written a novel about this?

:)

262 darthstar  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:16:31pm

Wow.

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:16:33pm

re: #259 albusteve

I'm out like Papa Doc

But do you have a version of the Lord's Prayer with yourself written into it?

264 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:16:48pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

No, DF - we send help.

We send help? I suppose so. But what credit does America get for helping the people it directly impoverished? The debt is not repaid by sending a boat load of bandaids.

re: #245 austin_blue

Everything you have said tonight is absolutely spot on. The history is stark. The benign neglect is there for all to see. What can be done with a failed state of 9,000,000 people?

As abusteve said, it is too late to help in any meaningful way, the Island in its present state can not support even a fraction of that population. As the French, and Americans, and to a lesser extent the British and the Germans, are directly implicated in this crime, it is their obligation to resettle its inhabitants in countries were they can work and and survive.

Anything less than that is just perpetuating an inhumane situation without hope.

265 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:17:24pm

re: #259 albusteve

I'm out like Papa Doc

/have fun in Paris!

266 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:17:36pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

Nobody's tooting America's horn about what we did to Chile. We'll just sweep that little event under the rug...

But Salvador Allende committed suicide by shooting himself in the back 26 times, pausing only twice to reload! What's your point?!?!

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:18:09pm

re: #260 wlewisiii

Agreed. But...

But how many others that I think that of will you also think that of? And there in is the real problem.

If there were justice in this world, then Papa Doc should have been in the equal of Gitmo once upon a time as most there are pikers next to him but He Said He Was Anti-Communist so his evil was ok. Lot's of others have done the same, before & since.

Had my family lived in Chile at the wrong time my parents, simple blue collar workers who vote Democrat, would have been murdered and my sisters and I would have been tortured and either 1) executed as well or 2) "been adopted" by good fascist families.

I tend to be very suspicious of both right & left claims to truth. I believe in leftist economics but carry a .357 Magnum daily...

William

And if he were in GITMO he'd have access to the best medical care, meals according to his belief system and be considered a US Person with full rights and an attorney provided for him.

Reality, again.

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:19:02pm

re: #261 ggt

Has Tom Clancy written a novel about this?

:)

I don't know. It seems more like a W.B. Griffith story really--less high-tech, more good old American know-how. I'm envisioning a small African nation with all the new roads carefully labeled with the name of the Rotary chapter that paid for them.

269 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:19:45pm

re: #264 Bagua

As abusteve said, it is too late to help in any meaningful way, the Island in its present state can not support even a fraction of that population. As the French, and Americans, and to a lesser extent the British and the Germans, are directly implicated in this crime, it is their obligation to resettle its inhabitants in countries were they can work and and survive.

Anything less than that is just perpetuating an inhumane situation without hope.

or apportion land for them to resettle their own country.

That would be *interesting*.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:20:23pm

re: #267 ggt

And if he were in GITMO he'd have access to the best medical care, meals according to his belief system and be considered a US Person with full rights and an attorney provided for him.

Reality, again.

Given the way the Duvaliers lived, I'm sure he would have thought he was in hell, regardless.

271 brookly red  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:21:53pm

good night good folks.

272 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:22:43pm

Have to attend to the household.

bbiab

273 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:23:18pm

re: #262 darthstar

Wow.

Love the nic. You should add some bio info on your account to give some background. Deadhead? Retired or active? &c

I'm retired, BTW.

274 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:24:31pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Given the way the Duvaliers lived, I'm sure he would have thought he was in hell, regardless.

Motel 6 woulda' been hell for him.

275 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:25:56pm

re: #266 austin_blue

But Salvador Allende committed suicide by shooting himself in the back 26 times, pausing only twice to reload! What's your point?!?!

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

276 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:26:37pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Given the way the Duvaliers lived, I'm sure he would have thought he was in hell, regardless.

Is truth. We should give prisoners in Gitmo that minimum. That it is still hell to to those who whould create hell is simply an extra win.

Gitmo should be in a little prison in the middle of flyover. Those people need to be introduced to a mid-western winter... :D

William

277 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:26:40pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

Let's just say that I think we backed some very wrong horses in Latin America in the 80s, to start with. Were there any good horses running? Maybe not. We still found some stinkers.

Operation Condor

278 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:27:06pm

re: #264 Bagua

re: #241 reine.de.tout

No, DF - we send help.

We send help? I suppose so. But what credit does America get for helping the people it directly impoverished? The debt is not repaid by sending a boat load of bandaids.

My response that "we send help" was to a comment DF made about Mexico, not Haiti, which is an entirely different matter.

As abusteve said, it is too late to help in any meaningful way, the Island in its present state can not support even a fraction of that population. As the French, and Americans, and to a lesser extent the British and the Germans, are directly implicated in this crime, it is their obligation to resettle its inhabitants in countries were they can work and and survive.

Anything less than that is just perpetuating an inhumane situation without hope.

I also believe we have some obligation to help the situation there.
What we could do, though - I'm not sure it would be enough.

279 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:27:53pm

re: #269 ggt

or apportion land for them to resettle their own country.

That would be *interesting*.

That would be impossible, their small country is destroyed. The forests are gone, the soil has washed away, the minerals mined and removed. Nearly 1,000 people per square mile. It is impossible.

280 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:27:54pm

re: #267 ggt

And if he were in GITMO he'd have access to the best medical care, meals according to his belief system and be considered a US Person with full rights and an attorney provided for him.

Reality, again.

And in prison. And not charged with a crime. Imagine your ass in that situation. Would you be all Club Gitmo about it?

I'm guessing not.

281 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:28:05pm

re: #278 reine.de.tout

I also believe we have some obligation to help the situation there.
What we could do, though - I'm not sure it would be enough.

I want to be clear that I knew and meant we'd sent help.

282 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:29:29pm

re: #278 reine.de.tout

I also believe we have some obligation to help the situation there.
What we could do, though - I'm not sure it would be enough.

Yes I know what you meant, I was applying the reasoning to Haiti where the situation, and US responsibility, is very different.

283 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:29:33pm

re: #280 austin_blue

And in prison. And not charged with a crime. Imagine your ass in that situation. Would you be all Club Gitmo about it?

I'm guessing not.

They are not there because they are criminals. They are there as enemy combatants. As such, they may be detained until the war ends.

284 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:29:52pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

Nationalizing the copper industry was not the smart thing to do.

285 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:32:13pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

Actually, no. He was a democratically elected socialist who threatened the existing ruling power structure who had been exploiting the economy to their benefit for decades. They controlled the military. They murdered him.

It's that easy.

286 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:32:34pm

re: #284 MandyManners

Nationalizing the copper industry was not the smart thing to do.

Going on a quick mental survey...I don't think there has ever been a case of nationalizing an industry that worked out well.

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:33:01pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

Allende was a lousy economist, and a Marxist. But Pinochet was a murderer and a torturer, and a goddamn dictator, and I am not prepared to consider him a lucky break for anyone. He deserved to land in Gitmo as much as anyone else who's been offered up for the honor on this list.

288 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:33:32pm

re: #286 EmmmieG

Going on a quick mental survey...I don't think there has ever been a case of nationalizing an industry that worked out well.

I can't think of a one.

289 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:33:44pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

You might want to rethink that. Pinochet was a tyrant amongst other things. He was also alleged to have been assisting the genocidal regimes during the Bosnian War:

Allegations during Pinochet's last days

In 2006, General Manuel Contreras, head of the Chilean secret police DINA under Pinochet, alleged in testimony sent to Judge Claudio Pavez (in charge of the Huber case) that Pinochet and his son Marco Antonio Pinochet were involved in the clandestine production of chemical and biological weapons, and the production, (under Eugenio Berríos's direction) sale and trafficking of cocaine . These allegations were investigated and later dismissed by the Chilean courts .

Fifteen years of investigation have also revealed that Pinochet was at the center of an illegal arms trade organized around FAMAE (Factories and Arsenals of the Army of Chile), which received money from various offshores and front companies, including the Banco Coutts International in Miami. One of the deals notably included the transfer of 370 tons of weapons to Croatia, which was under UN embargo because of the war against Serbia. Another involved a 1995 arms contract with Ecuador which gave rise to kickbacks, some of which ended up in Pinochet's bank accounts abroad.

290 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:35:11pm

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

They are not there because they are criminals. They are there as enemy combatants. As such, they may be detained until the war ends.

What the hell does that mean? The vast majority of detainees have been release without trial!

291 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:35:54pm

re: #289 Gus 802

That I did not know.

292 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:36:43pm

re: #290 austin_blue

What the hell does that mean? The vast majority of detainees have been release without trial!

And given that so many of them have returned to terrorism, I feel that those releases were a mistake.

293 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:37:49pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

And I'm glad that happened. He was a Communist who would have dragged Chile into greater misery than anything Pinochet ever did. Chile got relatively lucky with that coup, as things could have been far worse.

No. No matter what economic ills that _MIGHT_ have happened (Probably would have given the copper stupidity) they were still murderers and thugs that should have been forced to die in a prison cell. IF they had a pair of balls they would have waited for and won the next election. Instead they were cowards and murderers and there is no one of that generation who should be looked at as good.

Pinochet's people? They were, pure and simple, as evil as those we fought against before, during _and_ _after_ WWII.

"It's a holiday in Chille" anyone???

William

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:38:07pm

Totally OT: Does anyone here know what a 'radio window' is?

295 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:39:10pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

That I did not know.

Yeah, he was also involved in arms sales to Iran in 1983.

296 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:39:59pm

re: #293 wlewisiii

There was good reason to believe that Allende would not have permitted another election. A man who tried to "initiate socialism at once" is not someone likely to be concerned with the niceties of democratic process.

297 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:40:02pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally OT: Does anyone here know what a 'radio window' is?

Sounds like a time frame in which you can either receive or transmit radio frequencies. Like a "window of opportunity."

298 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:40:43pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally OT: Does anyone here know what a 'radio window' is?

It's the frequency form one centimeter to eleven-meters, these are the waves that can penetrate the atmosphere.

299 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:40:45pm

re: #295 Gus 802

Yeah, he was also involved in arms sales to Iran in 1983.


Er... didn't Reagan do that, too?

300 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:41:01pm

re: #299 JasonA

Er... didn't Reagan do that, too?

Shhh! Quiet. //

301 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:41:02pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Wikipedia does!
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

302 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:41:21pm

pimf: It's the frequency from...

303 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:42:04pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

And given that so many of them have returned to terrorism, I feel that those releases were a mistake.

So many? How about the hundreds that haven't? If you had been incarcerated against your will, for supposed crimes you didn't commit, how would your react?

304 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:42:29pm

re: #295 Gus 802

Yeah, he was also involved in arms sales to Iran Iraq in 1983.

Iraq not Iran. Sheesh. Need to check my eyes.

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:43:17pm

re: #297 Gus 802

Sounds like a time frame in which you can either receive or transmit radio frequencies. Like a "window of opportunity."

Hmmm. I've been trying to figure this one out for a bit. It's from an etiquette book from the '30s. At the end of a short piece on manners when playing the radio, she adds:

"Radio windows! Now that's another story."

I haven't a clue what this means.

306 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:44:07pm

re: #304 Gus 802

Iraq not Iran. Sheesh. Need to check my eyes.

Heh. Reminds me of a skit I once saw, possibly on SNL, called "Iranq."

307 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:44:36pm

re: #299 JasonA

Er... didn't Reagan do that, too?

Yeah. First it was to Iraq. Then, Cardoen Industries worked with "the administration" to get arms to Iran.

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:44:55pm

re: #306 JasonA

Heh. Reminds me of a skit I once saw, possibly on SNL, called "Iranq."

I just liked the iRaq skit.

309 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:01pm

re: #306 JasonA

Heh. Reminds me of a skit I once saw, possibly on SNL, called "Iranq."

Iranqistan!

310 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:11pm

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

There was good reason to believe that Allende would not have permitted another election. A man who tried to "initiate socialism at once" is not someone likely to be concerned with the niceties of democratic process.

I've listened to a hell of a lot of people say that about Clinton, Bush & Obama. Why should I believe it there & then?

In my experience I find ill easier to believe about right wingers. I'd bet you find it easier to believe around left wingers. Mayhap we're both right & both wrong at the same time???

William

311 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:40pm

re: #309 Gus 802

Iranqistan!

Doesn't matter what you call it. 85% of high school seniors couldn't place any of them on the right continent.

312 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:46pm

re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist

I just liked the iRaq skit.

Never saw it. Play on iMac, I presume?

313 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:52pm

Another beautiful and warm day in SoCal... but rain is heading this way, and all next week it will likely rain.

Unfortunately down in Haiti they are still struggling with tremors.

All during the day, since the big one, smaller quakes have been occurring along the fault line, moving roughly west during the day:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

Lots and lots of mag 4 and even mag >5 quakes, roughly one every 20 minutes!

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:45:52pm

re: #309 Gus 802

Iranqistan!

"Anyway, it's a very important stan..."

Did anyone else here ever watch She Spies, in the forty-five minutes before it was cancelled?

315 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:46:24pm

re: #311 EmmmieG

Doesn't matter what you call it. 85% of high school seniors couldn't place any of them on the right continent.

Hopefully some of them will learn where Haiti is tomorrow.

316 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:46:54pm

re: #312 JasonA

Never saw it. Play on iMac, I presume?

MadTV.

317 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:47:37pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

"Anyway, it's a very important stan..."

Did anyone else here ever watch She Spies, in the forty-five minutes before it was cancelled?

Did that come before or after Fox Force Five?

318 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:48:38pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

"Anyway, it's a very important stan..."

Did anyone else here ever watch She Spies, in the forty-five minutes before it was cancelled?

Never saw it. I'm hooked on House and The Office for now. Oh, and NCIS as usual.

319 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:48:58pm

re: #315 JasonA

Hopefully some of them will learn where Haiti is tomorrow.

And they'll have forgotten three months from now.

320 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:50:00pm

OT, my spelling sucks tonight.
Thanks for listening!

321 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:50:33pm

Adios, my friends. I'm for the rack. I will be dropping a C note tomorrow to the Red Cross for Haiti relief. I suggest you all do as much as you can. Bagua is right. We have a debt to pay to this country for how we have both exploited and ignored it.

322 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:50:37pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Here's a very good brief on Haiti by Anthony Daniels, who also writes under the pen name of Theodore Dalrymple:

A wretched place on earth: the agony of Haiti, unending and worsening

HAITIAN naive art often depicts landscapes replete with surreally lush vegetation, populated with friendly, smiling lions, leopards, and giraffes. When you know Haiti as it is, however, these paintings take on a different and much deeper meaning: They express a longing for a paradise lost, in Africa and in Haiti itself--a paradise that never existed, except in the imaginations of those who despair.

Without imagination and art, our human experience would be truly dreary.

323 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:51:15pm

re: #310 wlewisiii

I've listened to a hell of a lot of people say that about Clinton, Bush & Obama. Why should I believe it there & then?

In my experience I find ill easier to believe about right wingers. I'd bet you find it easier to believe around left wingers. Maybe we're both right & and both wrong at the same time???

William

I don't think the comparison really holds true. None of the presidents you mentioned tried to force through as much as Allende, not even Obama. And Allende did it after being elected with well less than 50% of the vote.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:51:30pm

re: #317 JasonA

Did that come before or after Fox Force Five?

Dunno. It was...sort of a Charlie's Angels update. I think.

Now remembered in my household solely for the line, "Anyway, it's a very important stan."

325 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:51:46pm

Well, I need to be getting my fat white ass to bed. Thank you all for a good conversation this evening.

Dark_Falcon, we'll pick it up again some other night I hope. I appreciate considering these things with you. Thank you.

William

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:52:12pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

And they'll have forgotten three months from now.

This is why the FreeRice site is so good. They have a geography game.

327 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:52:16pm

re: #305 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. I've been trying to figure this one out for a bit. It's from an etiquette book from the '30s. At the end of a short piece on manners when playing the radio, she adds:

"Radio windows! Now that's another story."

I haven't a clue what this means.

In those days no one had air-conditioning and radio was The entertainment, walk along a busy street during a popular show like the Lone Ranger and you could hear the show playing in the streets as well as everyone had their windows open and the same show on the radio.

There would have to be an etiquette for this sort of eavesdropping.

Here is a link to someone's memories from those days talking about this.

The olden days of radio

328 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:53:33pm

re: #321 austin_blue

Adios, my friends. I'm for the rack. I will be dropping a C note tomorrow to the Red Cross for Haiti relief. I suggest you all do as much as you can. Bagua is right. We have a debt to pay to this country for how we have both exploited and ignored it.

I can't manage a C-Note but I'll give what I can. Goodnight, austin.

329 Marcus Dracon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:54:07pm

Truly remarkable piccies.

330 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:54:47pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno. It was...sort of a Charlie's Angels update. I think.

Now remembered in my household solely for the line, "Anyway, it's a very important stan."

Heh. I was making a Pulp Fiction reference.

331 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:54:59pm

re: #315 JasonA
This could turn into a serious boat people crisis..... I hope the coast guard is stocked up with rescue equipment and supplies. There's a real potential for even more tragedy if desperate victims decide to take to the sea.
God bless them. It sounds as if large sections of Port-au-Prince will have to be leveled and rebuilt.

332 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:55:13pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

And they'll have forgotten three months from now once it stops "trending."

FTFY ;)

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:55:19pm

re: #327 Bagua

In those days no one had air-conditioning and radio was The entertainment, walk along a busy street during a popular show like the Lone Ranger and you could hear the show playing in the streets as well as everyone had their windows open and the same show on the radio.

There would have to be an etiquette for this sort of eavesdropping.

Here is a link to someone's memories from those days talking about this.

The olden days of radio

That's another possibility. She says it as though everyone will know what she means, and adds no other information about whatever the heck this is.

I was wondering if it could be some extremely prototypical form of TV, but what was in existence in the 30s wouldn't have been in homes, would it? I know there was some broadcasting going on the 30s, but...

334 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:56:56pm

re: #325 wlewisiii

Well, I need to be getting my fat white ass to bed. Thank you all for a good conversation this evening.

Dark_Falcon, we'll pick it up again some other night I hope. I appreciate considering these things with you. Thank you.

William

Good Night, William. We will talk more later. I do thank you for the spirited debate. It was LGF at its best: Opinionated, hard-hitting, but without name-calling, flaming or butthurt. Thank you, and thanks to everyone who helps make LGF one of the best places on the web.

335 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:57:43pm

re: #333 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect, that when it was new, it was like MAGIC! Look! A window, that can broadcast! I get sounds from a window!

It probably was pretty well known, when it was new.

My 2 cents.

336 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:58:05pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon
Be very careful where you send money for disaster relief in Haiti because of the huge potential for fraud there. The government is so corrupt that outside agencies should manage the relief effort..... something I usually think is a bad idea, but in their case, necessary.

337 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:59:16pm

re: #332 Gus 802

You know, I try not to be a geography snob. Put a blank map of Africa in front of me and the results won't be spectacular. But when it's a place that your own country is heavily invested in I don't think it's wrong to think people should know where the damn place is. Am I off base?

338 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:00:28pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

Good Night, William. We will talk more later. I do thank you for the spirited debate. It was LGF at its best: Opinionated, hard-hitting, but without name-calling, flaming or butthurt. Thank you, and thanks to everyone who helps make LGF one of the best places on the web.

Hallelujah! You mean "butthurt" has been laid to rest around here? Bout time.

339 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:00:31pm

re: #337 JasonA

You know, I try not to be a geography snob. Put a blank map of Africa in front of me and the results won't be spectacular. But when it's a place that your own country is heavily invested in I don't think it's wrong to think people should know where the damn place is. Am I off base?

I'm sorry...American Idol was on...did you say something?

340 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:00:46pm

According to new survey:-

87 percent of women say they like to yell out instructions to their men in bed.

78 percent say they like to yell out instructions to their men in a car.

Ironically, in both cases the instructions are: "Slow down!" and "You’re going the wrong way."

341 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:01:05pm

re: #339 EmmmieG

I'm sorry...American Idol was on...did you say something?

Enjoy it while it lasts.

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:01:23pm

Also from MadTV.

343 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:01:24pm

re: #341 JasonA

Actually, I don't own a television.

344 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:02:50pm

re: #338 Silvergirl

Hallelujah! You mean "butthurt" has been laid to rest around here? Bout time.

Neither the word nor the emotion, but the absence of the latter does mean a decrease in use of the former.

345 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:03:14pm

re: #337 JasonA

You know, I try not to be a geography snob. Put a blank map of Africa in front of me and the results won't be spectacular. But when it's a place that your own country is heavily invested in I don't think it's wrong to think people should know where the damn place is. Am I off base?

Yeah, one should have a good idea about the Western Hemisphere if one lives in the Western Hemisphere. Or at least to pull out the atlas of globe whenever conflicts or disasters occur. That used to be more common. People would hear about a country on the radio or read in the news papers and check it on a map. Atlases and globes were commonly found in homes.

346 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:03:21pm

re: #343 EmmmieG

Actually, I don't own a television.

In capitalist America the television owns you!

347 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:03:31pm

re: #338 Silvergirl

Hallelujah! You mean "butthurt" has been laid to rest around here? Bout time.

No, i just mean that there was none of it in evidence here tonight. The word was not used because it was not needed.

348 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:04:12pm

re: #193 Bagua
At least they had Carter as a monitor to make sure their elections were on the up and up....
/heavy sarc//

349 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:05:15pm

re: #345 Gus 802

I thought the net would make these things more convenient. It has for me. I suppose I must accept that some people just don't give a shit.

350 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:06:18pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

No, i just mean that there was none of it in evidence here tonight. The word was not used because it was not needed.

Ah, I see. Do you ever think of vicious circle?

351 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:07:45pm

re: #349 JasonA

I thought the net would make these things more convenient. It has for me. I suppose I must accept that some people just don't give a shit.

Unfortunately I think that's what it is. Most people won't care.

352 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:07:48pm

re: #349 JasonA

I thought the net would make these things more convenient. It has for me. I suppose I must accept that some people just don't give a shit.

The net brings its own problems, like information overload and people not knowing how to tell good sources or sites from bad. Consequently there are lots of places where the dumb get dumber (cf HotAir, WND readers, Breitbart's Big Dumb Websites), and the amount of people who want to make an effort to learn remains about the same.

353 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:07:56pm

re: #350 Silvergirl

Ah, I see. Do you ever think of vicious circle?

Yes, but in this case the circle is going in reverse. A decrease in trolling has lead to a major reduction in butthurt, thus decreasing the need to use the word.

354 bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:08:12pm

re: #333 SanFranciscoZionist

That's another possibility. She says it as though everyone will know what she means, and adds no other information about whatever the heck this is.

I was wondering if it could be some extremely prototypical form of TV, but what was in existence in the 30s wouldn't have been in homes, would it? I know there was some broadcasting going on the 30s, but...

The 30's were the big time for radio. The first TV broadcast wasn't until the end of the decade, and would have been rare in the early years.

In the 30's radio was the primary entertainment, along with Victrolas and black and white movies.

I have a collection of early radio's and an original Edison phonograph that works by winding, it still works perfectly and can fill a huge room with sound. Must have been magical when first introduced.

I'm fairly certain she was referring to listening through the windows.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:08:33pm

re: #337 JasonA

You know, I try not to be a geography snob. Put a blank map of Africa in front of me and the results won't be spectacular. But when it's a place that your own country is heavily invested in I don't think it's wrong to think people should know where the damn place is. Am I off base?

I think we need to have geography taught again as a school subject. I've been using the FreeRice thing, and I read the paper, and have some grip on reality, but I'm atrocious. Getting better. The FreeRice thing is fun, and easy.

Also, the world has changed since I was in high school. There are weird countries in Europe that used to not be there. And things have changed their names, sometimes several times. Also, science has changed. Several phyla I memorized in tenth grade biology have been recategorized. And the periodic table is out of control.

Done complaining now.

356 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:09:33pm

re: #349 JasonA
The internet is a great information source, but no one has yet managed a bug fix for that ' first you have to give a damn' glitch.

357 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:10:04pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but in this case the circle is going in reverse. A decrease in trolling has lead to a major reduction in butthurt, thus decreasing the need to use the word.

Probably not a coincidence that we've also had a couple of days where we didn't even have enough downdinged comments to make the bottom ten-- several had ratings of '0'.
I must say it's been extremely pleasant here of late. (Not that it wasn't before, but you know.)

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:10:12pm

re: #354 bagua

The 30's were the big time for radio. The first TV broadcast wasn't until the end of the decade, and would have been rare in the early years.

In the 30's radio was the primary entertainment, along with Victrolas and black and white movies.

I have a collection of early radio's and an original Edison phonograph that works by winding, it still works perfectly and can fill a huge room with sound. Must have been magical when first introduced.

I'm fairly certain she was referring to listening through the windows.

Thanks...it does sound like a plausible explanation!

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:10:58pm

It's absolutely pelting rain where I am.

360 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:11:42pm
361 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:12:38pm

re: #345 Gus 802

Yeah, one should have a good idea about the Western Hemisphere if one lives in the Western Hemisphere. Or at least to pull out the atlas of globe whenever conflicts or disasters occur. That used to be more common. People would hear about a country on the radio or read in the news papers and check it on a map. Atlases and globes were commonly found in homes.

Here's a good article on that:

Less-than-Splendid Isolation by Claire Berlinski

The money paragraph is the last one:

Why has the U.S. increasingly forgotten that a wider world exists? One possible reason is many Americans’ sense that since September 11, U.S. efforts to get involved abroad have been (arguably) unsuccessful and (inarguably) unappreciated. Another is the demoralization of the American workforce. The U6 rate of unemployment in the States—the more expanded measure that includes those who have stopped looking for work and those unwillingly settling for part-time employment—is now 17 percent. Many people are now underemployed in jobs that offer little pride or satisfaction, suffering a general sense of aimlessness and disgruntlement. Such a mood discourages the cultivation of a lively curiosity about the world. Yet even the most isolationist American might want to ask himself whether it’s wise to snuggle into a cocoon of self-absorption. What I heard at the Turkish media event could in the long run prove more important to him than the latest debt figures—even if he’d rather not know about it.

362 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:13:11pm

re: #359 SanFranciscoZionist

El Nino year/winter... it could be quite rainy for a while.

363 wee fury  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:14:18pm

re: #354 bagua

The 1930 Federal Census asked if the household owned a radio.

364 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:14:47pm

Helping the Victims of the Haiti Earthquake (Updated x several)
Socialisticy fascist constitutional hating Mao loving Hitler worshiping Darwinists!

365 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:15:31pm

re: #364 Killgore Trout

Helping the Victims of the Haiti Earthquake (Updated x several)
Socialisticy fascist constitutional hating Mao loving Hitler worshiping Darwinists!

You won't find anything similar on right wing blogs s tonight.

366 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:15:32pm

re: #350 Silvergirl

Ah, I see. Do you ever think of vicious circle?

I'm making a quick snoop before I run off.

The statement made by DF is accurate because we both chose to play by a set of rules. We do not need to agree to not be in a "butthurt" situation. Neither of us chose to play that way and our conversation was the better for it. I doubt either of us will often change the other's mind but so long as we can talk as equal free human beings, then the slight differences of opinion we have are not deal breakers.

The vicious circle only happens when people are not willing to accept that it is ok to disagree with one's friends. Where there are three people, there will be twelve opinions. That is reality :)

Let me put it like this - I want the next president to be equal parts Barry Goldwater and Russ Feingold. When you can parse that equation, you'll be close to understanding me.

William

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:16:24pm

re: #362 freetoken

El Nino year/winter... it could be quite rainy for a while.

I'm not complaining. I have a roof over me, and we need the rain.

Man, it's coming down!

368 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:17:02pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

In a way that's almost ironic. Given that the USA has interacted with nations around the globe in one fashion or another since our founding. We are a very geopolitically involved nation yet our citizens have little of no interest even on the basic level.

369 Racer X  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:17:16pm
370 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:17:26pm

re: #364 Killgore Trout

Helping the Victims of the Haiti Earthquake (Updated x several)
Socialisticy fascist constitutional hating Mao loving Hitler worshiping Darwinists!

We have a mass coming up at the school. We should do a relief collection.

371 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:18:13pm

re: #364 Killgore Trout

Helping the Victims of the Haiti Earthquake (Updated x several)
Socialisticy fascist constitutional hating Mao loving Hitler worshiping Darwinists!

Try finding the word Haiti on Hot Air's front page.

372 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:18:48pm

I think what Haiti needs now and within the next 24 hours is search dogs.

373 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:19:26pm

re: #363 wee fury

Yep, golden age. Television wasn't widely broadcast until the late 40's and 50's, with New York and Pennsylvania being the early birds with commercial stations in 1941, but New Hampshire not until 1954.

374 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:21:13pm

re: #357 iceweasel
It's been too friggin' cold for any kind of heated discussion.... also, and maybe not coincidentally, seems like there are fewer agw discussions, and those are always fertile flounce fields.
:)
On the bright side, maybe the mosquitoes will have taken a major hit. Can't see one other benefit, and it's inconvenient to have to bundle up every time you leave the house.

375 Sharmuta  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:22:29pm

Dear iceweasel-

I forgive you.

376 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:22:30pm

re: #365 Killgore Trout

Bless you.

377 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:23:07pm

re: #371 JasonA

Try finding the word Haiti on Hot Air's front page.

Do we have to?

378 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:23:25pm

re: #374 tradewind

It's been too friggin' cold for any kind of heated discussion... also, and maybe not coincidentally, seems like there are fewer agw discussions, and those are always fertile flounce fields.
:)
On the bright side, maybe the mosquitoes will have taken a major hit. Can't see one other benefit, and it's inconvenient to have to bundle up every time you leave the house.

True. The last few days have seen few hot-button discussions, and thus the hostility that produces nastiness has been dormant. Its still here, but it is sleeping now.

379 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:23:28pm

re: #371 JasonA

Try finding the word Haiti on Hot Air's front page.

Not discussed in the comments either.

380 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:24:21pm

re: #376 Floral Giraffe

Bless you.

I'm plenty blessed already. G'nite
/Namaste, y'all

381 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:24:36pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

Driving up towards your way, Thursday. I have new windshield wiper blades. HAH! Swish swoosh swish swoosh. Not going as far North as you are, but north of the dry lands of LALA!

382 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:26:01pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

True. The last few days have seen few hot-button discussions, and thus the hostility that produces nastiness has been dormant. Its still here, but it is sleeping now.

No, it is not logged on at the moment. Let's be honest.

383 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:26:04pm

re: #380 Killgore Trout

A grateful life, is one that knows it's blessed!
Namaste, KT.

384 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:26:43pm

re: #372 Gus 802

I think what Haiti needs now and within the next 24 hours is search dogs.

On the way from LA... one of the newswires is running a pic of a LA female officer and her dog which are departing. Suspect there will be several others from different communities too.

The emergency response to this quake is heartening... but the real problem for Haiti is in the weeks and months ahead. It's one of the poorest countries in the western hemisphere, and many people will have to rely on donations to take care of the orphans, the maimed, and to build new buildings.

385 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:28:04pm

re: #384 freetoken

On the way from LA... one of the newswires is running a pic of a LA female officer and her dog which are departing. Suspect there will be several others from different communities too.

The emergency response to this quake is heartening... but the real problem for Haiti is in the weeks and months ahead. It's one of the poorest countries in the western hemisphere, and many people will have to rely on donations to take care of the orphans, the maimed, and to build new buildings.

Right, I saw that about LA earlier this evening. They're also going to be facing some serious water shortages.

386 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:28:22pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Not discussed in the comments either.

FR has had a couple of threads. Some comments have been... less than charitable, but there's sympathy there.

387 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:28:26pm

re: #384 freetoken

In the longer term what they need is visas, not donations.

388 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:28:59pm

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

WAY OT...
You were talking finances, a few weeks ago.
Linky to an interesting blog, with, IMHO some good ideas & advice...
[Link: www.mydollarplan.com...]

389 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:29:10pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

True. The last few days have seen few hot-button discussions, and thus the hostility that produces nastiness has been dormant. Its still here, but it is sleeping now.

On the contrary, I've seen quite a few vigorous discussions between folks who don't share the same ideology at all over the last few days, and none of them devolved in the drearily predictable fashion. That's why I've found it exceptionally pleasant here-- the level of discussion has been, if anything, higher than say a month or two ago, often very heated, but always remaining informative. The conversation you had with William here is just one example.

390 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:29:15pm

re: #387 Bagua

In the longer term what they need is visas, not donations.

Peter Brimelow disagrees with you.

391 humpty dumpty was pushed  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:29:56pm

Looks like another photographic hoax. That`s a closeup of my forehead from a sophmore year school photo. D:

392 avanti  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:30:04pm

re: #373 Bagua

Yep, golden age. Television wasn't widely broadcast until the late 40's and 50's, with New York and Pennsylvania being the early birds with commercial stations in 1941, but New Hampshire not until 1954.

I recall our first TV back in the early 50's and getting the signal from Chicago some 90 miles from South Bend. We had a antenna with a rotor on a tower and a set top booster box. When South Bend got UHF, we added a UHF converter and all for 4 or 5 hours of nightly shows.

393 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:30:17pm

re: #382 Bagua

No, it is not logged on at the moment. Let's be honest.

You mean Ludwig, don't you?

394 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:30:48pm

re: #390 freetoken

Peter Brimelow disagrees with you.

Peter Brimelow can go pound sand.

395 tradewind  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:30:50pm

re: #365 Killgore Trout
You can't believe everything you read on Kos.... this is making me LMAO. In a post ( unrelated to Haiti) re the expected Senate bid of my hometown guy Harold Ford, they write:

Ford is a native of Tennessee and the son of a prominent, but ultra-conservative southern Baptist family.


Bwahahahaha. Ford (wisely) fled TN to escape the reputation of his anything-but-conservative, far-left, flamboyant, scandal- and indictment - plagued family.
Guess they did get the ' southern' right.

396 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:31:01pm

re: #385 Gus 802

The image is the 9:21 entry on this stack:

[Link: blogs.reuters.com...]

397 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:31:08pm

re: #390 freetoken

No doubt. We can do a trade, send Brimelow to Haiti. Sounds fair.

398 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:32:21pm

re: #393 Dark_Falcon

You mean Ludwig, don't you?

Uncool.

399 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:32:38pm

re: #396 freetoken

The image is the 9:21 entry on this stack:

[Link: blogs.reuters.com...]

Looking good!

400 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:33:13pm

Some insight into the Freeper mind:

When you compare (Haiti) to some of our cities, like San Francisco, where there is little left to recognize that is God-like, why Haiti??

Because there is no sky-man making the earth shake. That's why.

401 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:33:45pm

re: #393 Dark_Falcon

You mean Ludwig, don't you?

Blatantly.

re: #392 avanti

I recall our first TV back in the early 50's and getting the signal from Chicago some 90 miles from South Bend. We had a antenna with a rotor on a tower and a set top booster box. When South Bend got UHF, we added a UHF converter and all for 4 or 5 hours of nightly shows.

What was it like when you got your first signals? It must have been a magical atmosphere. We take so much technology for granted now.

Though I have personally rebelled against TV and have not had steady reception for over a decade.

402 avanti  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:35:05pm

re: #400 JasonA

Some insight into the Freeper mind:

Because there is no sky-man making the earth shake. That's why.

Watching a History Channel special on the ring of fire as we speak, and most earthquakes take place there.

403 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:35:08pm

re: #388 Floral Giraffe

WAY OT...
You were talking finances, a few weeks ago.
Linky to an interesting blog, with, IMHO some good ideas & advice...
[Link: www.mydollarplan.com...]

Thank you. I'm working bit by bit to get us back on keel, and believe me, we can use all the help we can get!

404 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:35:48pm

Not fun to be mentioned when you're not present. Unless it's all good.

405 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:36:06pm

re: #398 iceweasel

Uncool.

No, it's not uncool, it is topical and I did not bring it up. He is the only poster who calls his opponents liars, idiots, morons, etc. as a standard practice. It sets the tone and encourager les autres. The hostility spills over and lingers for days.

406 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:36:14pm

re: #401 Bagua

You wouldn't like it if the same was said about you when he was around and you were not. Just sayin'.

407 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:36:46pm

Reuters just posted a pic from Haiti:

Image: 8a611f88-1dd8-43b1-8b04-dd5b8b22cb7c_400.jpg

No text, so don't know if that is the palace... or just a fancy hotel. I assume it is a government building of some sort.

408 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:37:19pm

Yeah, it was the Presidential palace.

409 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:37:19pm

re: #407 freetoken

Reuters just posted a pic from Haiti:

[Link: images.scribblelive.com...]

No text, so don't know if that is the palace... or just a fancy hotel. I assume it is a government building of some sort.

Yeah, that's the palace. It used to be a two story building...

410 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:37:34pm

re: #408 freetoken

Yeah, it was the Presidential palace.

Yep.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:38:30pm

re: #400 JasonA

Some insight into the Freeper mind:


Because there is no sky-man making the earth shake. That's why.

Glad to know we can count on the Freeper's support here in San Francisco, come the big one.

/

/

412 avanti  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:38:38pm

re: #401 Bagua

What was it like when you got your first signals? It must have been a magical atmosphere. We take so much technology for granted now.

Though I have personally rebelled against TV and have not had steady reception for over a decade.

The folks up the street were the first to get it and they'd invite neighbors over. I recall us all watching the test pattern waiting for the "magic" to start. As I recall, it was about the price of a car back then to get a early TV setup.

413 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:39:18pm

re: #406 iceweasel

You wouldn't like it if the same was said about you when he was around and you were not. Just sayin'.

I did not bring it up nor did I name him. And yes, I do not approve of talking behind peoples backs, but in this case, not facing the facts is not courtesy, it is an enabling cover-up. A social organism either heals or rejects its diseased parts or it succumbs.

414 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:39:20pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Glad to know we can count on the Freeper's support here in San Francisco, come the big one.

/

/

Yeah. And I'm sure there are no Freepers in San Francisco.

//

415 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:39:26pm

re: #407 freetoken

Reuters just posted a pic from Haiti:

[Link: images.scribblelive.com...]

No text, so don't know if that is the palace... or just a fancy hotel. I assume it is a government building of some sort.

And if anyone needs to feel some more sympathy for these people just try and imagine if that was a picture of our White House in such shape. I get chills just thinking about it.

416 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:40:24pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a really good, real life blog.
She's smart, adn shops around.
I forget how I found it, but even if all you do is go to the library & get "the millionaire next door" out & read it, well, you're just on your way!
You already know this stuff, at least I did. I just didn't PARCTISE it everyday!

417 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:40:36pm

re: #413 Bagua

I did not bring it up nor did I name him. And yes, I do not approve of talking behind peoples backs, but in this case, not facing the facts is not courtesy, it is an enabling cover-up. A social organism either heals or rejects its diseased parts or it succumbs.

Not everyone agrees with you on those 'facts'.

Have an upding anyway for the last line, which I agree with.

418 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:41:04pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Glad to know we can count on the Freeper's support here in San Francisco, come the big one.

/

/

They would support you if you were a "Real American" city.

419 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:41:23pm

re: #412 avanti

The folks up the street were the first to get it and they'd invite neighbors over. I recall us all watching the test pattern waiting for the "magic" to start. As I recall, it was about the price of a car back then to get a early TV setup.

There is a wonderful Ephraim Kishon essay describing he and his wife's first experience with their TV set. There wasn't much Israeli programming in the 50s, and they couldn't get much of what there was, so they spend weeks obsessively watching Arab movies and anti-Israel variety shows from Egypt and Syria.

420 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:42:00pm

re: #416 Floral Giraffe

BLEECH!
Practise.

PIMF
SIMY
SPELLCHECK!
Gah!

421 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:43:25pm

re: #420 Floral Giraffe

BLEECH!
Practise.

PIMF
SIMY
SPELLCHECK!
Gah!

What are you goin off about now? :-)

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:43:27pm

re: #415 JasonA

And if anyone needs to feel some more sympathy for these people just try and imagine if that was a picture of our White House in such shape. I get chills just thinking about it.

OK, this is awful. I thought about it for a second, and the image that popped into my mind was the poster from 2012, of the Kennedy flattening the White House.

Having moved on from that image...yeah. It would be pretty horrifying. Ick.

423 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:45:07pm

re: #422 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm just horrified hearing that you went and saw 2012. Ick!

424 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:45:39pm

re: #423 JasonA

Oh. Poster. Never you mind.

425 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:46:46pm

re: #418 JasonA

They would support you if you were a "Real American" city.

I would love to see someone do a book on the obsession of certain social conservatives with the City. We fascinate.

426 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:46:57pm

re: #421 Silvergirl

My typing STILL sucks!
LOL!

427 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:47:15pm

re: #425 SanFranciscoZionist

I would love to see someone do a book on the obsession of certain social conservatives with the City. We fascinate.

You're fabulous!

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:47:31pm

re: #423 JasonA

I'm just horrified hearing that you went and saw 2012. Ick!

I didn't. The image was from the poster, which was up at the BART station.

429 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:47:58pm

re: #425 SanFranciscoZionist

I would love to see someone do a book on the obsession of certain social conservatives with the City. We fascinate.

You do! I'd buy that book. I'm sure it would feature Bill-O and his comments about the Coit Tower.

430 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:49:10pm

re: #429 iceweasel

You do! I'd buy that book. I'm sure it would feature Bill-O and his comments about the Coit Tower.

Nah. It would have to be Michael Savage. He's infiltrated them. Or something.

431 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:49:25pm

re: #417 iceweasel

Not everyone agrees with you on those 'facts'.

Have an upding anyway for the last line, which I agree with.

I am familiar with your position my friend. And while I know you are more accepting of this behaviour than I, I also note that you do not stoop to that level yourself. Thus we often disagree, but there is no animosity and the air is not poisoned.

My wish is not to condemn anyone, rather, to raise the level of debate and civility.

432 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:49:35pm

Ah well. If the Freepers feel Haiti didn't have this coming, maybe they'll give to the Red Cross.

433 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:52:01pm

re: #425 SanFranciscoZionist

I would love to see someone do a book on the obsession of certain social conservatives with the City. We fascinate.

I think much of it has to do with the way cities are less controlled by tradition. Large cities grow and change far faster than many small towns and that upsets many people. Cities are also the place where you find the intellectual classes, those who don't physically produce things, but instead make their living from ideas. With the exception of teachers, such people have often met the hostility of rural working people.

434 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:52:03pm

re: #432 SanFranciscoZionist

Freepers have money?
I thought they all lived in Mom's basement?
///

435 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:52:19pm

re: #429 iceweasel

You do! I'd buy that book. I'm sure it would feature Bill-O and his comments about the Coit Tower.

He apparently did a whole feature on SF. It was reviewed by a Richmond columnist, who commented that apparently the whole city is inhabited only by drug dealers and terrified-looking white women clutching their children to them.

Then, back when Casto Halloween was still big, there was this church in Texas that would send people to pray for us. I always thought that was a scam. They could have prayed for us from home. They just wanted in on the Halloween party.

436 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:53:36pm

re: #433 Dark_Falcon

I think much of it has to do with the way cities are less controlled by tradition. Large cities grow and change far faster than many small towns and that upsets many people. Cities are also the place where you find the intellectual classes, those who don't physically produce things, but instead make their living from ideas. With the exception of teachers, such people have often met the hostility of rural working people.

But Bill O'Reilly was born in NEW YORK CITY!

437 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:53:38pm

re: #425 SanFranciscoZionist

I would love to see someone do a book on the obsession of certain social conservatives with the City. We fascinate.

Let's see. How about Fleetweek and how most of The City (channeling Herb Cain here) loves the Blue Angels. The Presidio, the heritage that it owns having been the return point for many sailors and soldiers returning from the Pacific in WWII. Yes, this is a military related but it might be something those thick little Freeper skulls would understand.

438 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:54:18pm

Caen not Cain.

439 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:54:48pm

re: #431 Bagua

I am familiar with your position my friend. And while I know you are more accepting of this behaviour than I, I also note that you do not stoop to that level yourself. Thus we often disagree, but there is no animosity and the air is not poisoned.

My wish is not to condemn anyone, rather, to raise the level of debate and civility.

Not sure I deserve that credit there, as I can be quite the bitch myself. I like you both, don't like the current animosity between you, and have hopes that it will eventually be resolved.
It's surprising how often that can happen here. There are lots of people I clash with but amazingly we'll get along in the next thread. Kind of like it like that.
I know it's hard to let go of when one is called a lot of names, though.

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:55:09pm

re: #437 Gus 802

Let's see. How about Fleetweek and how most of The City (channeling Herb Cain here) loves the Blue Angels. The Presidio, the heritage that it owns having been the return point for many sailors and soldiers returning from the Pacific in WWII. Yes, this is a military related but it might be something those thick little Freeper skulls would understand.

My grandparents went out to the Top of the Mark for drinks before he shipped out to the Pacific.

441 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:56:05pm

re: #430 JasonA

Nah. It would have to be Michael Savage. He's infiltrated them. Or something.

Oh yeah, there would have to be a lot from Savage, I'm sure. I just remember O'Reilly comments because they really pissed me off.

442 freetoken  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:56:36pm

re: #432 SanFranciscoZionist

They seem to be more concerned that this is a sign of the Second Coming, a la their (mis)interpretation of Matthew 24.

443 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:57:22pm

re: #436 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet he was shocked to see that a black restaurant didn't have people hanging from the ceiling.

444 avanti  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:57:38pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

There is a wonderful Ephraim Kishon essay describing he and his wife's first experience with their TV set. There wasn't much Israeli programming in the 50s, and they couldn't get much of what there was, so they spend weeks obsessively watching Arab movies and anti-Israel variety shows from Egypt and Syria.

When I was stationed in Gitmo, I assumed it was 90 miles from Florida and took my big ass antenna to get current programming and not just the Naval base channel. Turned out Gitmo is at the other end of the island maybe 400 miles away, and by house was in a valley. I though I just had the biggest antenna on base to pick up the base signal until one day I was messing with the rotor and picked up a signal from New Orleans, bouncing off the water tower on a nearby hill. I would get a few seconds to a few minutes of stateside TV maybe once a day or two from all over the south.
I later learned about "E skip" (special atmospheric conditions) and collected a few QSL cards from TV stations 1000 miles or more away.

446 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 10:59:16pm

re: #436 SanFranciscoZionist

But Bill O'Reilly was born in NEW YORK CITY!

O'Reilly is a populist, but he's never had the rural tendencies of some others. Even in the biggest, fastest moving cities, you will find traditionalists. Its not a bad thing to be one, unless you try to force others to live by those traditions.

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:00:12pm

re: #442 freetoken

They seem to be more concerned that this is a sign of the Second Coming, a la their (mis)interpretation of Matthew 24.

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

Well, I can't say the present day doesn't fit the bill. Then again, I am stumped to find a time in the last two thousand years that doesn't.

448 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:00:25pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Far worse than what Imus said, in my humble opinion.

449 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:00:29pm

re: #205 Bagua

Aristide calculated that France owed Haiti $21 Billion US for the extortion by threat of violence that was demanded for their independence. That's about $2150 per person in Haiti, or a first class ticket out of the country. France laughed.

In terms of calculating our own debt to Haiti, I personally think it is worth noting that the 60 million franc (reduced from 150 initially) price tag forced on Haiti is the same price the US got for the Louisiana Purchase; which was only possible because Haitian fighting valor absolutely broke Napoleon's will for gambling hard on New World real estate.

We owe a debt of honor to the Haiti that we can only begin to comprehend. And as descendants of the only successful, permanent slave revolt ever they should be cherished and celebrated, instead they get treated like dogs. It's goddamned shameful.

450 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:01:47pm

re: #448 JasonA

Far worse than what Imus said, in my humble opinion.

Agreed. Damn you're fast with that Daily show link!

451 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:01:58pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Don't go there, ice. Unlike some of their other stuff, Media Matters was running a gotcha with that one. O'Reilly did mean to offend with it, and Al Sharton did forgive him for it. Its a dead letter, in the same way that Harry Reid's miscue should be dropped.

452 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:02:28pm

re: #450 iceweasel

Agreed. Damn you're fast with that Daily show link!

I have... nimble fingers.

453 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:03:36pm

re: #400 JasonA

People who fantasize about (and in doing so fetishize) "God's Wrath" are mentally ill. How depraved, weak of character, and morally corrupt does a person have to get to wish Holy Murder on an entire populace of people based on a simple and over exaggerated stereotype of a geographic area?

454 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:03:42pm

re: #439 iceweasel

Not sure I deserve that credit there, as I can be quite the bitch myself. I like you both, don't like the current animosity between you, and have hopes that it will eventually be resolved.
It's surprising how often that can happen here. There are lots of people I clash with but amazingly we'll get along in the next thread. Kind of like it like that.
I know it's hard to let go of when one is called a lot of names, though.

There is a fundamental difference Iceweasel, when we disagree, it is because we have divergent opinions. We may insist we are right and the other wrong, but we don't call each other "liar" and "moron" intentionally twist each others words to be adversarial and demean each other.

455 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:04:08pm

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

I brought it up first. It's not an attack, per se, just wondering out loud how someone who grew up in this city could be so damn ignorant.

456 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:05:08pm

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

Don't go there, ice. Unlike some of their other stuff, Media Matters was running a gotcha with that one. O'Reilly did mean to offend with it, and Al Sharton did forgive him for it. Its a dead letter, in the same way that Harry Reid's miscue should be dropped.

It's hardly a gotcha to report what someone has said, using their very own words. O'Reilly likes to claim that MMFA are 'smear merchants' simply because they embarrass him so frequently by doing so.
I'm only bringing it up because O'Reilly came up. It is a dead issue.

457 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:05:35pm

re: #443 JasonA

And yet he was shocked to see that a black restaurant didn't have people hanging from the ceiling.

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

They sit down! And order food!

As opposed to...I supposed I don't want to know.

WTF? He's doing this on purpose, right? He has to have seen black people in restaurants before, right? And this is Sylvia's. She has a national brand of packaged soul food for God's sake.

This is some kind of gag?

458 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:06:12pm

re: #449 goddamnedfrank

Spot on, brilliant post. Thank you.

459 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:07:36pm

re: #457 SanFranciscoZionist

Nope. No gag. And I don't think this commentary of his was malicious just... definitively clueless.

460 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:08:46pm

re: #454 Bagua

There is a fundamental difference Iceweasel, when we disagree, it is because we have divergent opinions. We may insist we are right and the other wrong, but we don't call each other "liar" and "moron" intentionally twist each others words to be adversarial and demean each other.

No, we don't, and that's because I don't think you're either a liar or a moron, and never would.
I do think you and LVQ are at the stage where you can't read each other in anything other than an adversarial way, perhaps.

I have a good quote I got via Sanity Inspector (as usual) that's very helpful. I think you'd like it. Let me get it from my faves--

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:08:52pm

re: #446 Dark_Falcon

O'Reilly is a populist, but he's never had the rural tendencies of some others. Even in the biggest, fastest moving cities, you will find traditionalists. Its not a bad thing to be one, unless you try to force others to live by those traditions.

SF is not a particularly fast-moving town, is the odd thing. We're not what they imagine. It's really a small, rather insular little city, balkanized into neighborhoods.

I don't think it's about urban and rural, I think it's mostly about the gay thing.

462 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:09:49pm

re: #457 SanFranciscoZionist

They sit down! And order food!

As opposed to...I supposed I don't want to know.

WTF? He's doing this on purpose, right? He has to have seen black people in restaurants before, right? And this is Sylvia's. She has a national brand of packaged soul food for God's sake.

This is some kind of gag?

What does it say about a country when the most popular news channel in the USA is also home to the most ignorant slack jawed characters?

463 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:10:52pm

re: #455 JasonA

I brought it up first. It's not an attack, per se, just wondering out loud how someone who grew up in this city could be so damn ignorant.

New York is so big that even someone who grew up there could find other parts of the city that shocked him. Though simple erroneous prejudice is the most likely explanation.

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:11:11pm

re: #462 Gus 802

What does it say about a country when the most popular news channel in the USA is also home to the most ignorant slack jawed characters?

Thing is, I don't buy it from Bill. He knows better than that.

465 Gus  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:13:34pm

re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, I don't buy it from Bill. He knows better than that.

I never tried to figure out his motivation behind that. Perhaps it was an "instructional segment" for his audience. You know, sort of like when Dan Riehl went to DC.

466 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:13:55pm

re: #463 Dark_Falcon

New York is so big that even someone who grew up there could find other parts of the city that shocked him. Though simple erroneous prejudice is the most likely explanation.

No one should be shocked to see African-Americans acting civilly in a restaurant. This wasn't Hunts Point.

467 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:14:52pm

re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, I don't buy it from Bill. He knows better than that.

Maybe he was trying to open the minds of his audience??

468 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:15:21pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

That, and SF is in the same Californication boat as the rest of our state. A totally corrupt, wicked, abomination before god. Even that big giant piece in the middle that is mostly rural farmland. All a bunch of homo-loving devil worshipers.
/

469 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:16:51pm

re: #468 Slumbering Behemoth

That, and SF is in the same Californication boat as the rest of our state. A totally corrupt, wicked, abomination before god. Even that big giant piece in the middle that is mostly rural farmland. All a bunch of homo-loving devil worshipers.
/

The thing is that most people only really know about California through its cities. The rural parts of the state are unknown to them. It's more a lack of curiosity than actual malice.

470 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:17:01pm

re: #463 Dark_Falcon

New York is so big that even someone who grew up there could find other parts of the city that shocked him. Though simple erroneous prejudice is the most likely explanation.

Yes, probably, but for someone who grew up in the city to have never been to Harlem for anything is weird, even if they were just changing trains or something. And Sylvia's is an institution.

It's not like we're talking about some place in Brownsville or Bed-Sty. (which were both decimated by the crack epidemic for like ten years).

471 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:19:59pm

re: #470 iceweasel

Yes, probably, but for someone who grew up in the city to have never been to Harlem for anything is weird, even if they were just changing trains or something. And Sylvia's is an institution.

It's not like we're talking about some place in Brownsville or Bed-Sty. (which were both decimated by the crack epidemic for like ten years).

I know, and that's why I included that caveat. I can't really explain his gaffe, but at least. unlike Rush Limbaugh, he learned a lesson and has avoided such mistakes since then.

472 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:20:41pm

re: #469 Dark_Falcon

Three cities, specifically SF, LA, and Berkeley. And I'd say the phenomenon is more of a narrow minded, ignorant, hate confirming bigotry than a lack of curiosity. IMO.

473 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:22:45pm

re: #472 Slumbering Behemoth

Three cities, specifically SF, LA, and Berkeley. And I'd say the phenomenon is more of a narrow minded, ignorant, hate confirming bigotry than a lack of curiosity. IMO.

And Hollywood, which as we know is the source of all evil.
/wingnut cultural critic and Breitbart columnist channelling here....

474 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:24:22pm

re: #473 iceweasel

In my mind, I always lump in Hollywood with LA.

475 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:27:11pm

re: #460 iceweasel

No, we don't, and that's because I don't think you're either a liar or a moron, and never would.

I do think you and LVQ are at the stage where you can't read each other in anything other than an adversarial way, perhaps.

I have a good quote I got via Sanity Inspector (as usual) that's very helpful. I think you'd like it. Let me get it from my faves--

I think you will find I do not cast the first stone, nor do resort to insults as a practice. My weakness is that I fight back. Several here have had the same experience. I am always ready to make friends, but the hostility I receive is now automatic, and I'm not alone in this either.

Also, before you were that active here there were many threads were I tried very hard to get him to be civil, usually it was other people being insulted at that stage, not I.

Regardless, I won't fault you for being tolerant and accepting, hope springs eternal and it's best to see the good in everyone and forgive the faults. Perhaps I am wrong for counter-attacking and engaging when the hostility starts, that is something I decided to give up for the new year.

476 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:31:09pm

re: #475 Bagua

Well, I'm a fan of fighting back, as you know. And also I know I've missed a lot of the exchanges here that are relevant, some of them before I joined too I think, so I know I don't have the whole story. I appreciate the way you and I handle our disagreements.

This is the quote via Sanity Inspector which I find very useful, and not only online:

Of the Seven Deadly Sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back -- in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you.
-- Frederick Buechner

This isn't directed at you in particular by any means, and when I next email LVQ I'll likely send it to him as well. Just something I'm finding very useful.

477 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:41:32pm

re: #476 iceweasel

Well, I'm a fan of fighting back, as you know. And also I know I've missed a lot of the exchanges here that are relevant, some of them before I joined too I think, so I know I don't have the whole story. I appreciate the way you and I handle our disagreements.

Exactly. Which is why we have discussions that lead to understanding 99% of the time, despite that fact that we are both a bit scrappy and stubborn by nature.

Part of my problem is knowing the whole story and expecting everyone else to know the same. Often I feel as a hostage negotiator may if put in the same room as the kidnapper and the mediator says "why don't you guys just get along?" "But, but, he's the kidnapper!" "Yea, well, when I arrived you were both arguing." And so it goes.

And yes, I agree that anger is the worst poison, with its ally hatred. That is an important observation and a great quote worthy of reflection.

478 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:44:28pm

re: #458 Bagua

Thanks. Now, just for fun, let's compare the kind of per capita aid Iceland received after bending its own economy over, in public even, and giving it the full "Milton Friedman":

All told, Iceland is borrowing at least $10 billion, or about $33,000 for each of its 300,000 residents.

Life: it's about who you know.

479 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:48:09pm

re: #477 Bagua

Exactly. Which is why we have discussions that lead to understanding 99% of the time, despite that fact that we are both a bit scrappy and stubborn by nature.


Yes, and it also helps that I like those qualities in you!

Part of my problem is knowing the whole story and expecting everyone else to know the same. Often I feel as a hostage negotiator may if put in the same room as the kidnapper and the mediator says "why don't you guys just get along?" "But, but, he's the kidnapper!" "Yea, well, when I arrived you were both arguing." And so it goes.

Exactly! Happens to me too all the time here. One person in particular. It's intensely frustrating. And it often leads to worse conflict, even though the mediators are well-meaning.

And yes, I agree that anger is the worst poison, with its ally hatred. That is an important observation and a great quote worthy of reflection.

Well, again, as I said, it's not really directed at you so much as something I find extremely useful for myself to meditate upon.
BTW, it might interest you to know that I've changed some of my behaviours as a result of conversations we've had. So even in the heat of battle, it's possible to take in opponent's points and even admit to being wrong. At least sometimes, anyway.
I'm going to pop some ee cummings poems in the top thread. See you there too, I hope!

480 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:50:57pm

re: #478 goddamnedfrank

Thanks. Now, just for fun, let's compare the kind of per capita aid Iceland received after bending its own economy over, in public even, and giving it the full "Milton Friedman":

Life: it's about who you know.

It's true, not only who you know, but who you are born "as". Being lucky and being born Black do often go together in our world.

481 Bagua  Tue, Jan 12, 2010 11:55:38pm

re: #479 iceweasel

Thank you Iceweasel, and likewise I have learned and benefited from you as well.

482 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 12:26:30am

re: #229 Bagua

Not only the slavery, but the persecution they received for the two centuries after they freed themselves from slavery was a direct cause of the steady decline. It could have been very different, in the early years they were actually helping other countries.

200 years of looting and boycott and the Haitian part of the Island is destroyed.

They had a proud history, but no resources to survive a boycott by the world.

Look up Simon Bolivar, he found refuge in newly free Haiti where he befriended Alexandre Petion, who actually sent Haitian soldiers and supplies to help him in his efforts to free Venezuela, on the promise that Bolivar would end slavery there.

Haiti and the Dominican Republic sit side by side, each occupying half the island. It's a natural experiment: who takes care of the land?

North Korea and South Korea sit side by side, each occupying half a peninsula. Another natural experiment: which economic system works better?

Blaming it all on things that happened about a century ago is lame. If there's a housing shortage in North Korea today, it's NOT because of the Korean war. If there's a tree shortage in Haiti today, it's NOT because of a boycott from even earlier.

Japan doesn't allow boat people from just anywhere into Japan. That's not a blockade of North Korea. There is no blockade of Haiti either, not unless you want to twist the word's meaning out of all resemblance to its real meaning, to wit, that warships cruise back and forth and sink all ships attempting to make port in the blockaded area.

Japan's history includes a flirtation with overlogging, but in the case of Japan, they found, on their own, an answer. Japan had no commerce with the outside world in that day. They saved themselves, by their own efforts and foresight. This same solution was available to Haiti, but not taken. See Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" for details on how Japan steered clear of the disaster that loomed before it.

483 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 4:53:43am

re: #482 lostlakehiker

If there's a tree shortage in Haiti today, it's NOT because of a boycott from even earlier.


Horse feathers.

If the only building materials available on a small island are trees - and there is a boycott........what else are you going to build with?.....

484 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 5:29:25am

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Look at her face. Think she's ever had a good day?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should...

And this is the picture that ended up on Drudge...

485 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:15:59am

I know I've watched too much Arrested Development because I can't look at this picture without thinking dirty thoughts....

486 Dom  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:07:48am

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Happy little trees?

Yes! They've been having a drink and a laugh with the photographer. Makes you think.

487 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:28:46am

re: #483 wozzablog

Horse feathers.

If the only building materials available on a small island are trees - and there is a boycott...what else are you going to build with?...

There was a housing shortage in Japan. The only available building material was wood. The Japanese solution was an imperial decree rationing wood. Each rank of society was limited to thus and so a size of dwelling. If that size was insufficient, tough. Penalties for poaching or going over quota were draconian and fiercely enforced.

As a result, people suffered for lack of housing. But the forests were kept as a resource for the future. There was at least some wood for all, and likewise for future generations.

On Easter Island, they did cut down all the trees. Every last one of them. So much for the seafaring capabilities that brought them there. Somehow or other, the people of Easter island weren't able to organize and act for the common good. The population tanked when fishing became impossible.

Japan of that era had no commerce with the outside world. They didn't import any building materials. They made do and found a way. There is always a better answer than to cut everything down and then look around and think, what now?

488 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 2:41:54pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

Dear iceweasel-

I forgive you.

You forgive iceweasel for what, exactly? Setting the record straight over your lies about her?

You should be asking for her forgiveness.

489 RexMundi  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 2:57:42pm

I love seeing a cosmic phenomena, especially when I have someone like the Bad Astronomer to explain it to an interested laymen such as myself.

Thank you for this, Charles.

490 bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 5:27:20pm

re: #487 lostlakehiker

You should learn about Haiti before pronouncing judgement. The primary cause of deforestation in Haiti was not building material, it was for charcoal to cook with. They have no other fuel source, the alternative is to starve.

The Japanese are also a very different people on a massively larger Island. The Japanese were not kidnapped, enslaved, deprived of their culture and social structure, and deposited on a tiny remote Island with very limited resources.

The Japanese also have a long culture and disciplined society, Haiti's slaves were tribal people who lived very primitive lives in Africa were there were vastly more resources. Of course the Japanese are more advanced and sophisticated as a society and a nation.

There is simply no comparison between an advanced society like the Japanese living on their own island and a group of slaves, abducted from primitive societies and then stranded on a tiny, foreign island without sufficient resources.

Of course they could have done things better, but the more advanced cultures were not interested in assisting or educating them, they were interested in exploiting them and destabilising them.

A great deal of the deforestation also occurred after the long US military occupation at which point the island was still 60% forested. It was the occupation government which dismantled the constitutional system and created the Nation Guards which ruled the country once the US left. The US was a bad actor in and around Haiti from its indipendence right up until the the present.

And as far as the exact meaning of the word "blockade", choose whatever word you feel appropriate to describe US Coast Guard ships which sit in the waters right off of Haiti with the mission to keep the people from fleeing. Their function is the same as the guard towers which surround a prison, only they are floating as the prison is an island.


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