1 darthstar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:32:28pm

Stewart's good. Yoo was better than he expected him to be. But I'll give John credit for admitting that he didn't do as well as he had hoped. "It's like interviewing sand..." Nice simile.

2 SteveMcG  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:35:15pm

Colbert would have done better because he can "lead the witness" better.

3 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:37:42pm

re: #2 SteveMcG

Colbert would have done better because he can "lead the witness" better.

I agree. I didn't think Jon did well and I'll bet Colbert would eat him alive and I would love to see that.

4 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:41:42pm

re: #3 Kewalo

I agree. I didn't think Jon did well and I'll bet Colbert would eat him alive and I would love to see that.

Maybe, but Yoo is an experienced lawyer. He'd have a pretty good chance of seeing it coming.

5 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:41:44pm

I'm thinking even Colbert would get the fail with Yoo. He's very good at being honest in a very non committal manner that doesn't really answer the question. It's like.... herding jello cats to nail walls or something.

6 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:42:01pm

I give Jon Stewart a lot of credit for even doing this. It's the bleeding edge of American politics - where do you draw the line between interrogation and torture?

Very tough issue. John Yoo walked the minefield pretty well.

7 darthstar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:43:35pm

re: #2 SteveMcG

Colbert would have done better because he can "lead the witness" better.

Disagree. Colbert's always "in character"...someone like Yoo would have had a much easier time keeping Colbert at arm's length. Stewart was just surprised by Yoo's rhetorical skills...and it's the first time he's been 'bested' by a wingnut guest. Colbert doesn't have the capability of 'going serious' with his guests, so he's never a real threat.

8 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:44:06pm

re: #3 Kewalo

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I think Yoo would have left Colbert pretty bloody, altho' it would have been a very different subject.

An obviously brilliant professor of Constitutional Law is a nasty target to take on in any situation. Gotta admire Stewarts cojones for that part.

9 hialeah007  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:44:07pm

What's so hard to understand for Stewart here? Somewhere between outright torture (say, pulling out toe nails with a pair of pliers) and decidedly legal interrogation (comfy chairs and soft pillows) is a line or rule of some kind that defines what is and is not legal. Am I the only person who finds this maddeningly simple and can't understand why Stewart doesn't get it?

10 SteveMcG  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:44:39pm

I still can't bridge the gap between offering legal advice and being responsible for commiting the war crime. Complicit, yes, but he gave no orders.

11 darthstar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:44:53pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Maybe, but Yoo is an experienced lawyer. He'd have a pretty good chance of seeing it coming.

Colbert scored his rhetorical victories with people who didn't realize he was playing a part and took him seriously. That advantage of surprise doesn't exist any more for him.

12 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:45:39pm

re: #9 hialeah007

I think what Stewart was trying to get at was that the line was drawn in the wrong place, but he simply couldn't pin Yoo down on it.

13 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:46:28pm

I suspect that Stewart is a bit ambivalent on the question like most of us probably are. This question puts two very powerful moral centers in your brain against each other, and the mediation ties you in knots.

14 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:47:28pm

Adam Serwer had a good analysis of this in the American Prospect; I popped it in the overnight links last night, but here it is:

When Jon Stewart Fails.

There is an unexpected silence in the liberal blogosphere after last night's highly anticipated Daily Show episode, in which Jon Stewart hosted John Yoo, the author of many of the Bush administration's torture memos and one of the people most responsible for giving legal sanction to the practice of torture. That's probably because Stewart found himself completely outmatched by a charming, tactful Yoo who seemed far better prepared to defend granting virtually unlimited powers to the executive branch than ever before. Put simply, Stewart failed to make Yoo look like he had done anything wrong. In fact, he made him look entirely reasonable. Stewart fares slightly better in the extended interview, but on the whole he was visibly out of his weight class.

Nails it, IMO.

15 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:47:32pm

That's why Yoo is a law professor.
Good exchange though.

16 SteveMcG  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:47:58pm

About the only thing he could have done with Yoo would have been to confront him with the precedent of previous war crime prosecutions.

17 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:49:46pm

re: #9 hialeah007
I'm much more interested in seeing that Eric Holder gets it, because right now he So Does Not.

18 headrock  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:49:50pm

Yoo just seems very likable.Doesnt come across as some modern day Torquemada ready to implement ripping out fingernails and using electric shock therapy.And while I certainly dont condone torture its a very serious topic that needed to be addressed after 9/11.Just an all around shitty position to be in.Stewart was out of his league and crushed in that interview.Oh well,hes just a comedian and yet some come to expect much much more from him.

19 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:50:25pm

This is what continually BUGS me about the left who claim Stewart is never fair game because he's "comedy" and not real news.

The fact is, he absolutely has become a figure of news critique and insight, even if he is aired on Comedy Central.

And yes, I believe he was out-dueled on that night.

20 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:50:52pm

re: #10 SteveMcG

I still can't bridge the gap between offering legal advice and being responsible for commiting the war crime. Complicit, yes, but he gave no orders.

He created the legal framework that enabled them.

21 YoungLibertarian92  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:51:54pm

re: #6 Charles

Stewart was also brave enough to bring on a guest who strongly opposes him unlike Glenn Beck who just finds a stuttering dunce.

22 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:52:22pm

To me this is really about President Bush. In his shoes I would have signed the orders myself, and made them secret if I thought that the means were warranted in specific cases and taken the lumps if necessary. Instead he had somewhat vague memos and distributed that decision.

23 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:52:35pm

re: #19 TampaKnight
Much of the demographic between 18 and 35 actually gets the bulk of their information re news and current events from Stewart.
Which is frightening in itself.

24 [deleted]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:52:35pm
25 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:52:49pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Maybe, but Yoo is an experienced lawyer. He'd have a pretty good chance of seeing it coming.

You could very well be right, after all he did get a good number of people to buy into the idea that the president had special "wartime" powers.

26 [deleted]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:53:29pm
27 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:53:46pm

OT - 8 Lame-Ass Shows NBC Will (Probably) Use to Replace Leno

28 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:53:51pm

re: #13 Thanos

I suspect that Stewart is a bit ambivalent on the question like most of us probably are. This question puts two very powerful moral centers in your brain against each other, and the mediation ties you in knots.

I think there are those who have no ambivalence whatsoever. I don't care about those who are gung-ho anti-torture ever; it's those who are gung-ho in favor of torture who I think need to be kept in check.

The questions I always find myself ruminating about when I think of torture, are:
1. Where is the line? What defines it?
2. If I were placed in a such a situation and needed to make a decision for enhanced interrogation and/or torture, what criteria would I use? How would I know the point at which my obligation to protect those I'm supposed to protect outweighs my obligation to treat others humanely? Does such a point even exist?

I quickly reach the point where it's time for me to put my head in some ice water.

29 wiffersnapper  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:53:54pm

impressive!

30 YoungLibertarian92  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:53:55pm

I was reading John Yoo's book in Barnes and Noble the other day, its very insightful but Steward was right, it contradicts the Originalist constitutional theory. But I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.

31 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:54:03pm

re: #11 darthstar

Colbert scored his rhetorical victories with people who didn't realize he was playing a part and took him seriously. That advantage of surprise doesn't exist any more for him.

I wouldn't be so sure, there are still conservatives out there who think he's "on their side" .... though the important ones have probably gotten the memo by now...

32 SteveMcG  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:54:05pm

"He created the legal framework that enabled them."

33 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:54:18pm

re: #26 iceweasel

ever make a post and immediately regret it? I wish LGF had a edit/delete function

34 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:54:26pm

re: #25 Kewalo
Somehow I get the feeling that if you tried telling President Obama that he doesn't have special ' war time powers' right about now, he would disagree strongly.
And he'd be right. Just wish he knew how to use them effectively.

35 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:55:27pm

re: #14 iceweasel

I'll take issue with this statement....

Put simply, Stewart failed to make Yoo look like he had done anything wrong.


There in lies the problem. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't do anything wrong. Yoo came off better because he could factually and honestly explain his position. Stewart was trying to win an argument. We saw the same thing with Charles' recent conversation with the guy from the Heritage Foundation. You can make reasonable cases for and against Yoo's interpretation but it's very unlikely you're going to win an argument against him.
We also see the same thing with the wingnuts who claim the Healthcare bill, stimulus and TARP are unconstitutional. They're wrong and they aren't going to win any debates or Supreme Court rulings.

36 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:55:47pm

re: #33 windsagio

ever make a post and immediately regret it? I wish LGF had a edit/delete function

Use the 'report' function to report your own comment to Charles if you want it deleted.

37 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:56:21pm

re: #33 windsagio

ever make a post and immediately regret it? I wish LGF had a edit/delete function

You're not the only one...

38 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:56:39pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I'll take issue with this statement...


There in lies the problem. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't do anything wrong. Yoo came off better because he could factually and honestly explain his position. Stewart was trying to win an argument. We saw the same thing with Charles' recent conversation with the guy from the Heritage Foundation. You can make reasonable cases for and against Yoo's interpretation but it's very unlikely you're going to win an argument against him.
We also see the same thing with the wingnuts who claim the Healthcare bill, stimulus and TARP are unconstitutional. They're wrong and they aren't going to win any debates or Supreme Court rulings.

Uh, I would argue that mandating every citizen MUST purchase a good or service with their money is absolutely unconstitutional.

39 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:56:52pm

re: #33 windsagio

ever make a post and immediately regret it? I wish LGF had a edit/delete function

All the time! Usually when I've just called someone a bad name.

No worries, i reread it, and understood it was just a hyperbolic analogy, not any kind of factual claim. Feeling a little slow tonight. sorry

40 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:56:58pm

It was a good interview, I kind of wish that Yoo would have brought up the actual techniques that were authorized. I think it would help much if the American & World public knew more about what we are talking about.

For example if people knew that we were talking about Fear up, Fear down, attacking self esteem, false flag (pretending your from another country), Yelling, good cop/bad cop, threatening physical harm (not inflicting harm), reverse sleep rotation (6hr), change food, etc. I think many would consider those not to be torture and many would even consider water boarding as not torture.

41 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:57:08pm

I am wondering what legitimate media outlet could have done better than Stewart. Maybe Nightline. Definitely CNN's GPS with Fareed Zacharia. He is brilliant. I'm kind of a news junky and I can think of no other competent outlet. I'm sure he will be on CSPAN, but no one will see.

I would speculate that BBC America, MSNBC and Fox 'News' would spend the whole 20 minutes in an emotional frenzy. No one on any of these networks would resist the self serving conflation of his work with Abu Graib or Jack Bauer fantasies.

42 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:57:16pm

re: #38 TampaKnight

Uh, I would argue that mandating every citizen MUST purchase a good or service with their money is absolutely unconstitutional.

Does your state require you to purchase auto insurance?

43 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:58:16pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

Does your state require you to purchase auto insurance?

Yep, but only if I choose to drive a car.

44 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:58:46pm

re: #36 reine.de.tout

re: #37 jamesfirecat

lol somebody beat me to it :)

probably for the best.

TO REPOST THE IMPORTANT BIT:

Having a charming, smart, friendly person also be the person that made something (*caveat: that I find) so loathesome possible. Its chilling.

Its beyond the banality of evil, to the pleasantness of evil.

45 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:58:59pm

re: #27 Mad Al-Jaffee
NBC: dead to me since they cancelled Life and Southland.
Idiots.

46 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:59:47pm

re: #38 TampaKnight

Uh, I would argue that mandating every citizen MUST purchase a good or service with their money is absolutely unconstitutional.


And you would lose. Do you really think the Supreme Court is going to overturn Healthcare reform? Obama, like Bush, is not an idiot. They research this stuff. I know people are desperately clinging to their own personal interpretations of the Constitution but you have to consider the larger reality.

47 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 6:59:55pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

Does your state require you to purchase auto insurance?

You don't have to drive, but you would have to buy health insurance or be charged criminally.

48 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:00:29pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

It is an option to drive, it is not an option merely to be a person.

I have often thought that a basic auto insurance should be included in the price of gas & that bad drivers pay a surcharge when they renew their driver's license.

49 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:00:35pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout
What healthcare reform?
You must be talking about the proposed Insurance Company Bailout.

50 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:01:07pm

re: #20 iceweasel

He created the legal framework that enabled them.

You're assuming that you understand the definition of those crimes under international law. Which is what Yoo was charged with doing.
Yoo is correct, there is no definition, though I have read some recent papers on that issue and they tend to lean towards "permanent physical damage" and/or extreme pain to the point of "permanent" psychological damage.
My understanding is that KSM, a so called "victim" of this interrogation suffers from none of the above and is in fact is healthier than when captured.

51 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:01:41pm

re: #47 lrsshadow
Well.... there is that handy Amish loophole.....//

52 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:02:08pm

re: #49 tradewind

An MD friend of mine says the current bill will just
make the insurance companies richer.

BBL

53 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:02:41pm

Some ore: #46 Killgore Trout

And you would lose. Do you really think the Supreme Court is going to overturn Healthcare reform? Obama, like Bush, is not an idiot. They research this stuff. I know people are desperately clinging to their own personal interpretations of the Constitution but you have to consider the larger reality.

The government hasn't given a shit about the Constitution for a long time.

54 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:11pm

re: #52 Ojoe
Connect the dots: Mutual of Ben Nelson.

55 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:19pm

re: #49 tradewind

re: #52 Ojoe

eeh, I'm still not comfortable with that argument. If the best solution we can get through congress happens to help some bad people, thats what we have to do. Theres plenty of cause for everyone to be mandated insurance, the problem is that right dems and almost all the reps won't let a solution that does that and DOESN'T reward the insurance companies through.

It makes me crazy.

56 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:22pm

re: #51 tradewind

or environmentally friendly :) if you don't drive then you don't cause the world to melt or blow away or something like that

57 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:30pm

re: #38 TampaKnight

I won't buy it.

58 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:32pm

re: #42 reine.de.tout

Does your state require you to purchase auto insurance?

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. We're required to buy auto insurance if we're driving vehicles on public roads. The insurance helps to cover the property damage and injuries/deaths we could cause while driving.

If we don't purchase government-mandated health insurance, the possible consequences differ significantly.

59 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:03:47pm

re: #45 tradewind

NBC: dead to me since they cancelled Life and Southland.
Idiots.

Well, at least TNT picked up Southland, so all is not lost.

60 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:04:34pm

I'm confused (yet again).

Was Stewart supposed to crucify Yoo and expose him as a ruthless prick?

Or was the intent to gain insight into the mindset around the legal ramifications of government endorsed interrogation techniques?

61 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:04:50pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I'll take issue with this statement...


There in lies the problem. Maybe, just maybe, he didn't do anything wrong.

That's open to debate, of course. Stewart was out of his league, though. From the serwer article:

Stewart allowed Yoo to claim that Abu Zubayda was the "number 3 in al-Qaeda," a claim which is factually untrue. Yoo claimed that his memos allowed the government to "go up to the line" of what was torture, but in practice with Zubayda and others the line was crossed repeatedly. The experiences of the detainees who were shackled, in stress positions, had their head thrown into walls, and were doused with cold water were far different than the sanitized, clinical descriptions in the memos. He never asked Yoo whether he thought Zubayda being stuffed in a box to the point that his gunshot wounds reopened was "well beyond the line." Stewart allowed Yoo to claim the U.S. had never really considered what is and isn't torture, despite the fact that the U.S. statute against torture was very clearly violated by Yoo's recommendations and that waterboarding had been prosecuted as a crime as recently as 1983.

Stewart never confronted Yoo on the question of how the torture regime, reverse engineered from training meant to help soldiers resist torture, could possibly not be torture. Stewart never even contested the idea that torture was effective, despite the high-profile declaration of FBI Interrogator Ali Soufan that he personally extracted all of the useful information from Zubayda prior to his being tortured. When Stewart asked Yoo whether the president could electrify someone's testicles, Yoo knew how to answer the question -- having previously implied that it would be okay for the president to order a child's testicles crushed because, "it depends on why the president thinks he needs to do that." This time he shook his head. No, no, never something so barbaric.

Stewart, like most Americans, is unaware of what we did and what Yoo enabled.

62 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:05:29pm

re: #23 tradewind

Much of the demographic between 18 and 35 actually gets the bulk of their information re news and current events from Stewart.
Which is frightening in itself.

And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off.

63 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:05:32pm

re: #60 Racer X

I'm confused (yet again).

Was Stewart supposed to crucify Yoo and expose him as a ruthless prick?

Or was the intent to gain insight into the mindset around the legal ramifications of government endorsed interrogation techniques?

Have you ever watched Stewart? He doesn't aim for insight, he aims to pin guests who he doesn't agree with to a wall.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:05:40pm

re: #34 tradewind

Somehow I get the feeling that if you tried telling President Obama that he doesn't have special ' war time powers' right about now, he would disagree strongly.
And he'd be right. Just wish he knew how to use them effectively.

What do you want him to do?

65 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:05:58pm

re: #23 tradewind

Much of the demographic between 18 and 35 actually gets the bulk of their information re news and current events from Stewart.
Which is frightening in itself.

I partly agree, but the younger people who watch Stewart need to be somewhat literate in current events to 'get the joke'. I'm guessing 20-somethings who watch Stewart are more educated and informed than average too.

His choice of guests seems to have 5 academic and political people for every 1 Hollywood type. I'm thinking (hoping) the real slackers flip the channel over to whatever non-music is on MTV.

66 YoungLibertarian92  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:06:13pm

What is Yoo doing teaching at Berkeley? How did HE get a job there?

67 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:06:17pm

re: #61 iceweasel

I love the Daily Show, but I think the left thinks Steward is about 5 feet taller than he actually is.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:06:30pm

re: #45 tradewind

NBC: dead to me since they cancelled Life and Southland.
Idiots.

Life was brilliant.

69 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:06:34pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon
I know... I love TNT.
Now just wish they didn't have to run through the episodes from pilot on up.
Wish they had picked up Life.

70 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:06:48pm

re: #66 YoungLibertarian92

What is Yoo doing teaching at Berkeley? How did HE get a job there?

Perhaps he is smart?

71 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:07:00pm

The two moral imperatives involved are "Do no intentional harm to a human being if it can be avoided" and "Save the most lives you can when they are threatened" ... both outcomes of our social evolution. The picture is further complicated by adherence to hierarchy and utilitarian centers.

That's why the commander in chief should have ok'ed this and not farmed it out to lawyers and memos. He should have consulted them of course, as well as his military commanders, but where extreme means were deemed necessary to save many lives, it should have been him ordering it. Maybe when papers are released sometime far in the future we will find out it was. I don't know.

72 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:07:23pm

re: #60 Racer X

I'm confused (yet again).

Was Stewart supposed to crucify Yoo and expose him as a ruthless prick?

Or was the intent to gain insight into the mindset around the legal ramifications of government endorsed interrogation techniques?

I think he failed at winning the argument.

However, I'd hate to have the responsibility Yoo was tasked with defining.

73 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:07:23pm

re: #61 iceweasel

Also!


I totally want to make a conspiracy theory out of this:

Stewart was a plant from the beginning, used by the corporatist powers to support the use of torture!

74 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:08:17pm

re: #40 lrsshadow

It was a good interview, I kind of wish that Yoo would have brought up the actual techniques that were authorized. I think it would help much if the American & World public knew more about what we are talking about.

For example if people knew that we were talking about Fear up, Fear down, attacking self esteem, false flag (pretending your from another country), Yelling, good cop/bad cop, threatening physical harm (not inflicting harm), reverse sleep rotation (6hr), change food, etc. I think many would consider those not to be torture and many would even consider water boarding as not torture.

No, that isn't what we're talking about.
Read the recently declassified OLC CIA memo from 2004. Yes, we tortured, and the so-called EIT under Bush were torture.

75 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:08:22pm

re: #62 palomino
Actually, no. The demographic you cite is still the base of the original networks. Fox owns the coveted 25-54 year old demo, avg age is in the forties.

76 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:08:31pm

One other thing occurred to me: John Yoo was the Anti-Palin in that interview. He had a good idea as to what he'd be facing in the interview and he had a plan to get his views out and defend them. He then sat down and executed. He was flexible enough not to get rattled by Stewart coming at him from odd angles, and he stayed polite and articulate through the whole interview. Now, imagine how Sarah Palin would have fared. Once you do that, you'll see how much better Yoo is.

77 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:09:15pm

re: #72 rwmofo

I think he failed at winning the argument.

However, I'd hate to have the responsibility Yoo was tasked with defining.

Agreed.

Superman cannot save both his girlfriend and the bus full of kids going off a cliff.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:09:29pm

re: #66 YoungLibertarian92

What is Yoo doing teaching at Berkeley? How did HE get a job there?

Huh? He's been there for years. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a very well-thought-of scholar. And Berkeley can draw from the best, even with the current fiscal disaster going on.

79 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:09:33pm

re: #62 palomino

And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off.

Maybe you'd be surprised to find out how many elderly have computers and spare time. They have the multitude of resources we have as well. Look at how easy it is to use a PC and surf the net.

80 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:09:57pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Well said. Its the first time I've seen that faction actually able ot use the Daily Show to THEIR advantage.

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:10:04pm

re: #67 windsagio

I love the Daily Show, but I think the left thinks Steward is about 5 feet taller than he actually is.

I just like him because he reads the news and then makes the same face I did when I read the news.

82 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:10:24pm

re: #69 tradewind

I know... I love TNT.
Now just wish they didn't have to run through the episodes from pilot on up.
Wish they had picked up Life.

A more procedural show like Southland was a better choice, though. Easier to keep them going and they last longer.

83 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:10:24pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Sarah who?

84 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:10:35pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

Huh? He's been there for years. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a very well-thought-of scholar. And Berkeley can draw from the best, even with the current fiscal disaster going on.

I love how the most radical leftists can go on and teach at universities amidst praise and glory, yet this kid is baffled that Yoo could possibly teach at Berkley.

85 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:10:42pm

re: #27 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - 8 Lame-Ass Shows NBC Will (Probably) Use to Replace Leno

Law & Order: Murder Science

Another one???? someone STOP them.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:11:01pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

One other thing occurred to me: John Yoo was the Anti-Palin in that interview. He had a good idea as to what he'd be facing in the interview and he had a plan to get his views out and defend them. He then sat down and executed. He was flexible enough not to get rattled by Stewart coming at him from odd angles, and he stayed polite and articulate through the whole interview. Now, imagine how Sarah Palin would have fared. Once you do that, you'll see how much better Yoo is.

Yes, but Yoo is an elite!

///He's also a lot smarter than Sarah Palin.

87 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:11:13pm

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh he's funny and smart, but he's... well again, in the end he's a comedian with good writers.

He's not qualified to debate people like Yoo.

Politicians are usually in the same business as him tho', so he does alright.

88 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:11:34pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh god, +++++++++


also, once again we didn't make 100 posts pre-sarah >>

89 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:11:46pm

re: #53 TampaKnight

The government hasn't given a shit about the Constitution for a long time.


Bullshit.

90 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:12:00pm

In the end, I can't demonize Yoo - he shouldn't have been asked to write the memos.

91 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:12:38pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist
/Damian Lewis..... sigh../

92 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:12:55pm

re: #90 Thanos

He should have refused the job, more like it.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:12:55pm

re: #85 Vambo

Law & Order: Murder Science

Another one??? someone STOP them.

There was a MadTV skit once, where a woman was giving a class in how to be an extra on Law and Order. You know--the garbageman who finds the body, the mom with stroller who finds the body, the aerobics instructor who finds the body. Your cue to overact is always the bam-BAM sound effect they do.

94 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:13:02pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but Yoo is an elite!

///He's also a lot smarter than Sarah Palin.

Yoo is indeed an elite, and thank goodness for him!
He also seems to have the gift of humility.

95 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:13:17pm

Sunnyland Vice

Youtube Video
96 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:13:26pm

re: #45 tradewind

NBC: dead to me since they cancelled Life and Southland.
Idiots.

Damian Lewis is ha-ha-hot.

97 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:13:30pm

re: #90 Thanos

In the end, I can't demonize Yoo - he shouldn't have been asked to write the memos.

There's more than enough blame to go around.
The pity of it is all we'll see are (possibly) a few lowlevel CIA operatives and lawyers take all the blame.

98 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:13:46pm

re: #80 windsagio

Well said. Its the first time I've seen that faction actually able to use the Daily Show to THEIR advantage.

Planning and good tactics make all the difference, wind. John Yoo knew what he faced and planned to turn it to his advantage. John Stewart was also caught somewhat off his game. As iceweasel linked to, he did not really understand what sort of man he'd have to face. Given that Yoo understood what he'd be facing and Stewart did not, the outcome of their duel was decided before it began.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:14:10pm

re: #91 tradewind

/Damian Lewis... sigh../

I loved the Zen. And the fruit. And the stalking his ex-wife's new husband.

100 sagehen  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:14:21pm

re: #10 SteveMcG

I still can't bridge the gap between offering legal advice and being responsible for commiting the war crime. Complicit, yes, but he gave no orders.


At the risk of Godwin-ing the thread... some of the people we prosecuted at Nuremburg "just" offered legal advice to their lawful government. They wrote opinions that X, Y and Z were legal under their constitution and laws... and they were convicted of war crimes for having done so.

101 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:14:59pm

re: #62 palomino

And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off.

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?

102 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:15:29pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a MadTV skit once, where a woman was giving a class in how to be an extra on Law and Order. You know--the garbageman who finds the body, the mom with stroller who finds the body, the aerobics instructor who finds the body. Your cue to overact is always the bam-BAM sound effect they do.

Not to be pedantic, but to clarify, a non-speaking role extra given that kind of frame time (visibility to the camera) would be classified as a "featured extra," not an extra. :)

103 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:15:35pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Planning and good tactics make all the difference, wind. John Yoo knew what he faced and planned to turn it to his advantage. John Stewart was also caught somewhat off his game. As iceweasel linked to, he did not really understand what sort of man he'd have to face. Given that Yoo understood what he'd be facing and Stewart did not, the outcome of their duel was decided before it began.

It wasn't even that he didn't understand Yoo as a person, though that unquestionably helped Yoo in the interview. Stewart didn't even have the necessary background on the issues to grill him.

104 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:15:40pm

re: #92 windsagio

He should have refused the job, more like it.

If he had refused the job, it could have gone to one of those Jerry Fallwell Liberty Bible College lawyers that the Bush administration hired by the hundreds. I suspect they don't read all the way to that part in the back of the Bible that says to bless those who curse you and pray for your enemies.

105 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:16:13pm

re: #55 windsagio

re: #52 Ojoe

eeh, I'm still not comfortable with that argument. If the best solution we can get through congress happens to help some bad people, thats what we have to do. Theres plenty of cause for everyone to be mandated insurance, the problem is that right dems and almost all the reps won't let a solution that does that and DOESN'T reward the insurance companies through.

It makes me crazy.

Ditto. I'm given up reading about it. It's just a bastard bill now. I am hoping it passes since I find it ridiculous that we are the only country in the industrial world without healthcare for our citizens, but IMO it's going to need a lot of work in the future.

106 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:16:26pm

re: #100 sagehen

Nuremburg was essentially just show trials anyways. Those guys were gonna fry no matter what. Real rule of law applies here.

107 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:16:49pm

re: #101 MandyManners

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?

C'mon....they probably can't even hyperlink blog entries to their Facebook page.

What use are they?

108 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:16:53pm

re: #101 MandyManners

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?

And I downdinged you for trying to make this about his patriotism, or his support for the military.
A tired and sad trick. He's making a point about Fox viewers. Get a grip.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:17:13pm

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

Not to be pedantic, but to clarify, a non-speaking role extra given that kind of frame time (visibility to the camera) would be classified as a "featured extra," not an extra. :)

Thank you...one of those things I know nothing about.

110 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:17:26pm

re: #97 iceweasel

There's more than enough blame to go around.
The pity of it is all we'll see are (possibly) a few lowlevel CIA operatives and lawyers take all the blame.

Take the blame for what?

111 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:17:29pm

re: #74 iceweasel

re: #74 iceweasel

Oh you mean the memo that "memo concludes that torture is defined as "acts inflicting...severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical." Physical pain "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." Mental pain "must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years," as well as be the result of one of the specific causes of mental pain contained in 18 USC 2340, "namely: threats of imminent death; threats of infliction of the kind of pain that would amount to physical torture; infliction of such physical pain as a means of psychological torture; use of drugs or other procedures designed to deeply disrupt the senses, or fundamentally alter an individual's personality; or threatening to do any of these things to a third party.""

Sounds to me like the memo said if you did any of the above things then it would be illegal. Doesn't match up with you point,

These are the techniques we are talking about;

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes them
2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap to the face aimed at causing pain and triggering fear
3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the abdomen. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage
4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor, for more than 40 hours
5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees Fahrenheit (10 degrees Celsius)
6. Waterboarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Material is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over them. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt

112 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:17:55pm

re: #110 rwmofo

Take the blame for what?

Torture.

113 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:04pm

re: #104 keloyd

If he had refused the job, it could have gone to one of those Jerry Fallwell Liberty Bible College lawyers that the Bush administration hired by the hundreds. I suspect they don't read all the way to that part in the back of the Bible that says to bless those who curse you and pray for your enemies.

I would prefer that they didn't go any where into the bible to define their politics... and the "back" of the bible is loaded with all that death and destruction based on all that fun during Armageddon, not too much blessing and praying for anyone.

114 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:11pm

re: #61 iceweasel

I skimmed the article but sort of dazed out after...

Stewart allowed Yoo to claim that Abu Zubayda was the "number 3 in al-Qaeda," a claim which is factually untrue.

He did mention Al Qaeda'a #3 but I don't think he mentioned Zudayda. The author certainly wishes Yoo and Bush were guilty of heinous violations of their Constitutional limitations but it looks to me like it's the same wishful thinking from the Wingnuts who think healthcare reform is unconstitutional. If Bush was so out of line where are the legal rulings? Constitutional law is not a matter of personal opinion. You'd do better to work on understanding the logic behind the legal rulings rather than cling to a personal interpretation to suit your personal political agenda.

Don't get me wrong here. You can make a moral case against waterboarding based on your personal beliefs but not a Constitutional ruling.

115 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:13pm

re: #104 keloyd

He still had a moral responsibility to not be a part of that.

116 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:18pm

re: #103 iceweasel

It wasn't even that he didn't understand Yoo as a person, though that unquestionably helped Yoo in the interview. Stewart didn't even have the necessary background on the issues to grill him.

Like I said: If only one party is ready for the fight, that is the party that will win. However, it should be noted that Stewart at least was a good sport about and avoided butthurt fuming. That's the sign of a good man.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:42pm

re: #111 lrsshadow

re: #74 iceweasel

Oh you mean the memo that "memo concludes that torture is defined as "acts inflicting...severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical." Physical pain "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." Mental pain "must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years," as well as be the result of one of the specific causes of mental pain contained in 18 USC 2340, "namely: threats of imminent death; threats of infliction of the kind of pain that would amount to physical torture; infliction of such physical pain as a means of psychological torture; use of drugs or other procedures designed to deeply disrupt the senses, or fundamentally alter an individual's personality; or threatening to do any of these things to a third party.""

Sounds to me like the memo said if you did any of the above things then it would be illegal. Doesn't match up with you point,

These are the techniques we are talking about;

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes them
2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap to the face aimed at causing pain and triggering fear
3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the abdomen. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage
4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor, for more than 40 hours
5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees Fahrenheit (10 degrees Celsius)
6. Waterboarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Material is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over them. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt

1, 2 and 3 may merely count as 'knocking your prisoners around'.

4, 5 and 6 are time honored torture techniques.

118 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:19:42pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist
You can have the zen, and the fruit...
I'll take the candy.
But yeah, all those were good.
We have two chestnut mares that are foaling soon, and if there is one decent looking red colt , his name is Charlie Crews.

119 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:20:47pm

re: #118 tradewind

Awesome. And I'm sure he will have a twinkle in his eye.

120 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:21:27pm

re: #111 lrsshadow

You can keep posting that list, but you don't know the facts.

Here's some of the memos in which that Commie, military-hating organisation the CIA concluded that yes, they did torture.

[Link: www.aclu.org...]

Go read it all. Take in what we did. Then think about the parts that are blacked out.

121 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:21:31pm

re: #108 iceweasel

And I downdinged you for trying to make this about his patriotism, or his support for the military.
A tired and sad trick. He's making a point about Fox viewers. Get a grip.

Umm, he made a point about "the 65+ demo." I don't see how that could be perceived differently.

122 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:22:00pm

re: #121 rwmofo

well I downdinged it because it was presumptuous and bullying, is that better? ;)

123 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:22:04pm

re: #105 Kewalo

Ditto. I'm given up reading about it. It's just a bastard bill now. I am hoping it passes since I find it ridiculous that we are the only country in the industrial world without healthcare for our citizens, but IMO it's going to need a lot of work in the future.

Um, factually the U.S. does have healthcare for most citizens. It is private. If you want free government health care you have to wait in a long line, but it is available.

And those countries that offer government healthcare for everyone? The income taxes are over 50%.

124 YoungLibertarian92  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:22:49pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

I would consider going to Berkeley just to be in his class. He knows his stuff and I support his Originalist interpretation of the Constitution.

125 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:23:04pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

Were I draw the line between rough interrogation (abuse) and torture is if it doesn't not cause permanent or debilitating harm and if the interrogator was the recipient of the technique during training then it is not torture. It may be abuse, but it is not torture.

126 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:23:17pm

re: #123 Racer X

I think we had this discussion before, but...

Presuming you see the need for SOME reform. Is it better to have a flawed bill in that needs improvement, or should we juts keep putting things off as we wait for the perfect bill?

127 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:23:19pm

re: #75 tradewind

Actually, no. The demographic you cite is still the base of the original networks. Fox owns the coveted 25-54 year old demo, avg age is in the forties.

Sure, there's overlap in between. But I'd be willing to guess few oldsters are watching Stewart. And I don't think a lot of teens-20somethings are watching Fox News.

Anyway, my original point stands: you'd be better off getting news/commentary from Comedy Central than the propaganda/religious proselytizing/Palin lovefest propaganda machine known as Fox.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:23:43pm

re: #121 rwmofo

Umm, he made a point about "the 65+ demo." I don't see how that could be perceived differently.

Those over 65 are not defined solely by their military service.

129 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:01pm

re: #123 Racer X

And those countries that offer government healthcare for everyone? The income taxes are over 50%.


Heh. 90% of people stating bogus figures are full of shit.

130 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:19pm

re: #127 palomino

heh, take it from me, nothing good will come from this line of argument >>

And I like to argue too!

131 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:25pm

re: #104 keloyd

If he had refused the job, it could have gone to one of those Jerry Fallwell Liberty Bible College lawyers that the Bush administration hired by the hundreds. I suspect they don't read all the way to that part in the back of the Bible that says to bless those who curse you and pray for your enemies.

Exactly - when tasked by the leader of your country you have to give your best effort to the task. Yoo did the best he could, and another lawyer might have smudged "the line" even further over.

This is one of those moral dilemmas in which there are moral imperatives in conflict. Everyone thinks and hopes they would do the right thing in hindsight, but it's very hard to know when you are in that spot. Morally I think waterboarding and some of the other things IW is pointing out are over the line, but on the other hand would we be questioning this if KSM had revealed a plot to bring nukes in a cargo container into NY harbor?

Tough tough questions, and thinking you can answer them in an eyeblink without thinking hard is the wrong answer.

When there's a tough decision like this it's one the president should make in each case as Commander in Chief based on the best knowledge he or she has at the time.

132 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:27pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

I skimmed the article but sort of dazed out after....

Yes, this is the problem with the issue. Very few people are prepared to wade through the memos and details and hundreds of pages of info.
I'm not especially up for a debate on this topic tonight, I'm afraid. At least not this moment. probably back later, though!

133 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:51pm

It's very easy to be an idealist on torture when sitting in a computer chair 6,000 miles away from the nearest combat zone.

Our soldiers and intelligence agents who have to deal with life and death decisions on a daily basis, which involve their friends and family, may be compelled to inflict a little pain if it saves lives.

I won't pretend to understand what they have to go through.

134 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:24:57pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Heh. 90% of people stating bogus figures are full of shit.

I'm in the 10%.

;-)

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:25:11pm

re: #125 lrsshadow

Were I draw the line between rough interrogation (abuse) and torture is if it doesn't not cause permanent or debilitating harm and if the interrogator was the recipient of the technique during training then it is not torture. It may be abuse, but it is not torture.

It 'may' be abuse?

136 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:25:12pm

re: #101 MandyManners

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?


OH FAN MY BROW SOMEONE MADE A COMMENT ABOUT DEMOGRAPHICS I THNK I'M GETTING THE VAPORS

137 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:25:45pm

re: #40 lrsshadow

It was a good interview, I kind of wish that Yoo would have brought up the actual techniques that were authorized. I think it would help much if the American & World public knew more about what we are talking about.

For example if people knew that we were talking about Fear up, Fear down, attacking self esteem, false flag (pretending your from another country), Yelling, good cop/bad cop, threatening physical harm (not inflicting harm), reverse sleep rotation (6hr), change food, etc. I think many would consider those not to be torture and many would even consider water boarding as not torture.

Here's the problem,re: #63 TampaKnight

Have you ever watched Stewart? He doesn't aim for insight, he aims to pin guests who he doesn't agree with to a wall.


Have you seen his interview with Huckabee on Abortion? I'll admit he seemed to be going to want to pin Huck to the wall when it came to gay marriage, but on the abortion debate the two actually seemed to be trying to come to an agreement rather than verbally crossing swords.

138 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:26:17pm

re: #131 Thanos

Its not our job to support the president no matter what. Its our job to try to do what we think is right, or at least what we need to survive.

I hope that neither of those conditions apply to Yoo.

139 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:26:23pm

re: #119 prairiefire
(Even so..... we don't really want any we have to cut the balls off of colts... hoping for fillies... but it would ease the disappointment).//

140 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:26:54pm

re: #112 iceweasel

Torture.

Irrespective of my definition vs. your definition of "torture," which I don't think happened to KSM, if a democrat had been President on 9-11 and the exact same interrogations were performed by a democrat administration, I'M ALL FOR IT.

KSM bragged about slowly slicing Daniel Pearl's head off. He even made a video of it. After a lot of consultation, it was determined he could be water-boarded and as a result he sang like a bird. I hope democrats will be tough on murderers. Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.

141 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:26:54pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

Those over 65 are not defined solely by their military service.

Of course not.
Unless someone wants to pretend that another poster has somehow insulted TEH TROOPZ and institute a witchhunt.

This is almost as much bullshit as when Mandy claimed I was 'insulting the Green Berets' by mocking armchair wingnut internet warriors by calling them "Screen Berets".

Bullshit then, bullshit now.

142 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:26:57pm

re: #126 windsagio

I think we had this discussion before, but...

Presuming you see the need for SOME reform. Is it better to have a flawed bill in that needs improvement, or should we juts keep putting things off as we wait for the perfect bill?

Well, you wouldn't want this bill to go through without the single payer option, would you?

143 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:00pm

re: #67 windsagio

I love the Daily Show, but I think the left thinks Steward is about 5 feet taller than he actually is.

John Lebowitz is, the Hebrew Hammer!

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #137 jamesfirecat


Have you seen his interview with Huckabee on Abortion? I'll admit he seemed to be going to want to pin Huck to the wall when it came to gay marriage, but on the abortion debate the two actually seemed to be trying to come to an agreement rather than verbally crossing swords.

Huckabee is also very good at the sort of environment Stewart offers. He's funny, and doesn't get self-righteous or angry when he's needled a little.

145 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:31pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

no, but I would want it in over *nothing*

We can work up to single payer :D

146 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:31pm

re: #136 WindUpBird

OH FAN MY BROW SOMEONE MADE A COMMENT ABOUT DEMOGRAPHICS I THNK I'M GETTING THE VAPORS

I HOPE ALL YOU PEOPLE UNDER 65 ARE &^%$# HAPPY NOW!

147 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:40pm

re: #79 rwmofo

Maybe you'd be surprised to find out how many elderly have computers and spare time. They have the multitude of resources we have as well. Look at how easy it is to use a PC and surf the net.

Yes, because the elderly are known for being incredibly computer literate!

/

148 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:27:44pm

Good Evening LGF.
I hope everyone does what they can for Haiti in their hour of need.

149 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:20pm

re: #146 iceweasel

lord, you guys made me laugh.

damn kids.

150 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:25pm

re: #122 windsagio

well I downdinged it because it was presumptuous and bullying, is that better? ;)

What did the +65 demo ever do to you?

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:39pm

re: #140 rwmofo

Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.

That's a pretty ugly accusation.

152 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:50pm

re: #127 palomino


Anyway, my original point stands: you'd be better off getting news/commentary from Comedy Central than the propaganda/religious proselytizing/Palin lovefest propaganda machine known as Fox.

maybe I'm naive but I can't even see how this is contentious - and I don't even watch Stewart and Colbert regularly. Even if they are uninformed or irreverent, at least they aren't fearmongering or telling deliberate lies.

153 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:56pm

re: #126 windsagio

I think we had this discussion before, but...

Presuming you see the need for SOME reform. Is it better to have a flawed bill in that needs improvement, or should we juts keep putting things off as we wait for the perfect bill?

I think the current bill is a clusterfuck - from what i've read so far.

I'm in favor of every American going all-in. Everybody pays for healthcare insurance through the government. The government negotiates the best possible price for every procedure - annually.

The government acts as the insurance company; doctors and medical providers are free to offer services outside of the government insurance agency that citizens could pay for out of their own pocket (boob job, tummy tuck, etc).

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:28:57pm

Apologies if this has been posted already, but there was a study about who is better informed, Fox viewers or Stewart viewers.

And I think we all know the answer.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:29:26pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

Yes, because the elderly are known for being incredibly computer literate!

/

Politicians across the country rue the day my grandmother and her sisters discovered e-mail.

156 harry91  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:29:31pm

re: #40 lrsshadow

Ya had me until waterboarding.

157 sagehen  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:29:41pm

re: #28 reine.de.tout


2. If I were placed in a such a situation and needed to make a decision for enhanced interrogation and/or torture, what criteria would I use? How would I know the point at which my obligation to protect those I'm supposed to protect outweighs my obligation to treat others humanely? Does such a point even exist?

And I find that the easiest question of them all.

Torture, or if you'd prefer the euphemism enhanced interrogation, should always be illegal.

If you truly believe that lives are at stake in a time-is-of-the-essence situation, if you're honestly convinced that this person has the relevant info and you can get it... if you're so certain you'd bet your own freedom on it... then break the law and hope that a jury will forgive you and acquit. If you guessed right and these actions really did save a bunch of lives, they will (assuming prosecutorial discretion didn't spare you even having charges brought).

If you're convicted anyway, the judge can order jury nullification. If the judge doesn't do that and he sentences you, there's presidential pardons. If you don't get pardoned and you serve a long sentence -- if you've saved hundreds of lives, that's a trade most intelligence professionals would be willing to make. How is that different than what every soldier or CIA agent risks every time they operate overseas?

Our legal system already has ways to deal with people who break a law if there's sufficient reason. But legalizing something that should only be a rare exception, turns it into a routine occurence.

(And if you guessed wrong and tortured an innocent person, "oh but I really meant well" shouldn't carry any weight.)

158 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:29:52pm

re: #146 iceweasel

I HOPE ALL YOU PEOPLE UNDER 65 ARE &^%$# HAPPY NOW!

ahahahahaha DAMN KIDS!

(oh wait the damn kids invented the Googles)

159 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:30:00pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a pretty ugly accusation.

It's true though. No liberal even went after Ayman el-Zawaheri with the same vehemence they went after Dick Cheney. That is worth noting.

160 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:30:07pm

re: #120 iceweasel

Ok well I haven't read it all yet, but from reading about 8 different memos and faxes, etc 20 plus pages in all, I have not found one thing yet that I would define as torture, in fact it would appear that not only did the White House, but the CIA also spent much time on trying to get a legal opinion on exactly what they could and could not do to detainees. Do you have something specific you could point out?

161 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:30:26pm

re: #150 rwmofo

heh, I'm gonna take that as a joke.

Otherwise, it just doesn't make any sense >

162 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:30:42pm

re: #140 rwmofo

Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.

What a crock of SHIT.

BTW, it's crazy republicans that hate liberals more than they do terrorists. And unlike you, I even have a link to prove it.

Quist: Defeating liberals a bigger battle than defeating terrorism

Allen Quist, a Republican who is seeking to defeat Rep. Tim Walz in southern Minnesota’s First Congressional District, told attendees of the Wabasha County Republicans Christmas Party in mid-December that beating the “radical” liberals in Washington, D.C., is a bigger battle than beating terrorism.

“Our country is being destroyed. Every generation has had to fight the fight for freedom… Terrorism? Yes. That’s not the big battle,” he said. “The big battle is in D.C. with the radicals. They aren’t liberals. They are radicals. Obama, Pelosi, Walz: They’re not liberals, they’re radicals. They are destroying our country.”

Sound familiar? It should. That could be a HotAir comment.

163 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:31:04pm

re: #127 palomino

You would be guessing wrong. We old folks love Stewart and many of us watch him every night.

164 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:31:14pm

re: #138 windsagio

Its not our job to support the president no matter what. Its our job to try to do what we think is right, or at least what we need to survive.

I hope that neither of those conditions apply to Yoo.

I'm assuming Yoo did what he thought was right. As pointed out another lawyer might have smudged the line even further over. Refusing the order in that position is tantamount to making a decision by not making a decision - which is the fault Bush had. He farmed it out into the military instead of leading. Therefor some people even went further than he probably intended. (Abu Ghraib comes to mind.)

165 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:31:46pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

I can't go even part way with you on this one.

I think its more that most people don't feel the need to thump their chests and remind people "OH GOD I HATE AL QAEDA SO MUCH!"

Going after Cheney at least could do some good.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:32:00pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

It's true though. No liberal even went after Ayman el-Zawaheri with the same vehemence they went after Dick Cheney. That is worth noting.

That would be Dick Cheney who's currently acting as self-appointed gadfly assigned to undermining the president of the United States? It is not true, it's self-dramatizing bullshit.

167 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:32:11pm

re: #13 Thanos

I suspect that Stewart is a bit ambivalent on the question like most of us probably are. This question puts two very powerful moral centers in your brain against each other, and the mediation ties you in knots.

Well said. This issue is far from the no-brainer as characterized by many on the extreme left and right. Neither the threat of another attack nor the rule of law nor conventions banning torture are things to just be dismissed in an argument. And real life isn't an episode of "24".

168 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:32:49pm

re: #145 windsagio

no, but I would want it in over *nothing*

We can work up to single payer :D

But I thought Obama didn't want single payer, or something like that?

169 harry91  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:32:52pm

re: #123 Racer X


No they are not take Canada for instance:

Here is a handy Dandy calculator

[Link: www.walterharder.ca...]

Average tax rate in Ontario is.....27.65%

And that includes commie healthcare and death panels for free!!!!

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:32:54pm

re: #140 rwmofo

I hope democrats will be tough on murderers. Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.

Oh, don't be a butthole. This is the sort of stuff Michele Bachmann says. When she's slumped outside a 7-11, nursing a bottle of Thunderbird.

171 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:33:53pm

re: #136 WindUpBird
Not for nuthin' did Brokaw call it the Greatest Generation , you know....

172 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:34:22pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Sound familiar? It should. That could be a HotAir comment.

It's conservative thought in action.

/no regrets.

173 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:34:27pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

/if he's smart he does.


I think its more that he's a pretty results-oriented guy, and he knows that he'll sink the whole deal if he insists on going for single payer. Going for it and failing would only weaken him in general.

As far as I can tell, he's taking the 'foot in the door' approach in the face of lockstep republican opposition and massive insurance industry influence.

174 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:34:49pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

Those over 65 are not defined solely by their military service.

Here's that guy's quote:

"And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off."

I know some people who are over 65 and spend a lot of time on their PCs. I also have an aunt in her 70s who has been keeping up with the family via email for years. Plus the AARP Is no right-wing fringe group.

I'm only defending the elderly because so many of you are kicking them around when they're not here to look after themselves.

175 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:35:02pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Sound familiar? It should. That could be a HotAir comment.

Must Concur. Allen Quist is a teabagger who can't figure out who the enemy is (hint: its not Americans who disagree with you). Here's some Green Day to remind him:

Youtube Video
176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:35:20pm

re: #171 tradewind

Not for nuthin' did Brokaw call it the Greatest Generation , you know...

People at the low end of "over 65" are now the Boomers. The Greatest Generation is now very, very elderly.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:35:37pm

re: #163 Kewalo

You would be guessing wrong. We old folks love Stewart and many of us watch him every night.

My father, who is pushing 70, is a gigantic fan of Colbert and Stewart. He runs a law firm and his views are very moderate, and extremely informed. He reads a lot of history and has a nearly encyclopedic memory.

178 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:35:38pm

re: #150 rwmofo
Spawned it.//
Probably a lawsuit in there now for wrongful birth.
(Oh don't start.... I really am kidding.)

179 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:35:41pm

re: #160 lrsshadow

Ok well I haven't read it all yet, but from reading about 8 different memos and faxes, etc 20 plus pages in all, I have not found one thing yet that I would define as torture, in fact it would appear that not only did the White House, but the CIA also spent much time on trying to get a legal opinion on exactly what they could and could not do to detainees. Do you have something specific you could point out?

Go do a search for my comments here with the word 'torture'. I've posted links many times, and much information, and I am not currently in the mood to do so again.
Sorry if this sounds snappish. I'm getting over the flu. And this issue, and the almost total ignorance which most Americans have about it, really gets me going.

180 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:36:01pm

re: #171 tradewind

OH lord.

Don't even start on that. Why are they any better than the people that served in WW1, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, or in the Civil War, or in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars?

Its romantic hogwash. They're no better or worse than any other generation.

181 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:36:27pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #140 rwmofo

Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.


That's a pretty ugly accusation.

Some dem libs think the GOP leaders ARE terrorists.

182 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:36:39pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Reminds me of Bjorn Roost saying Charles is more dangerous than Bin Laden.

Seriously there are wingnut idiotarians and moonbat iditotarians, the mistake was saying "Democrats" instead of moonbats.

Lumping everyone in the other party into one bucket is offensive, and right now there are more rocks laying around to toss at Republican glass houses so Republicans should refrain from broad brushing...

183 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:36:54pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Sound familiar? It should. That could be a HotAir comment.

Democrats and Republicans care more about winning the race/defeating the other than... anything else. Pointless to say one cares more than the other, though it is funny when conservatives always fall back on a variation of "WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA"

184 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:36:56pm

re: #172 laZardo

It's conservative thought in action.

/no regrets.

What currently now controls the GOP and the right, yes. Absolutely.

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:05pm

re: #174 rwmofo

Here's that guy's quote:

"And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off."

I know some people who are over 65 and spend a lot of time on their PCs. I also have an aunt in her 70s who has been keeping up with the family via email for years. Plus the AARP Is no right-wing fringe group.

I'm only defending the elderly because so many of you are kicking them around when they're not here to look after themselves.

I have no problem with defending the elderly, although I don't know what the stats are on what news they watch.

I don't like seeing a comment like that turned into a contest about patriotism. If I say that lots of 20-somethings get their news from Colbert and Stewart, am I dissing the people now serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, or am I commenting on a generational trend?

186 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:14pm

re: #182 Thanos

Reminds me of Bjorn Roost saying Charles is more dangerous than Bin Laden.

Seriously there are wingnut idiotarians and moonbat iditotarians, the mistake was saying "Democrats" instead of moonbats.

Lumping everyone in the other party into one bucket is offensive, and right now there are more rocks laying around to toss at Republican glass houses so Republicans should refrain from broad brushing...

Quite Concur.

187 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:15pm

re: #50 captdiggs

You're assuming that you understand the definition of those crimes under international law. Which is what Yoo was charged with doing.
Yoo is correct, there is no definition, though I have read some recent papers on that issue and they tend to lean towards "permanent physical damage" and/or extreme pain to the point of "permanent" psychological damage.

Just plain wrong, condescending bullshit that ignores the military tribunals that followed WWII. We convicted people on charges of waterboarding. "There is no definition" is a bullshit made up disingenuous, goddawful excuse. There was a clear cut, pre-existing, longstanding national policy based on international legal precedents that we secured only after winning an actual victory in an actual declared war. Yoo was all too happy to destroy all that and enable a cheap, pathetic, unprincipled corruption of our hard won national integrity. "Just following orders," is not a viable defense strategy, there's precedent for that as well.

My understanding is that KSM, a so called "victim" of this interrogation suffers from none of the above and is in fact is healthier than when captured.

.

183 times in one month. Three times a day, every day, for a month. I am at a complete loss as to how that gets justified.

188 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:27pm

re: #180 windsagio

OH lord.

Don't even start on that. Why are they any better than the people that served in WW1, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, or in the Civil War, or in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars?

Its romantic hogwash. They're no better or worse than any other generation.

KISS MY SHINEY METAL ASS.

189 avanti  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:32pm

re: #101 MandyManners

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?

Well, I'm 67, don't match that group, but not offended since he said "most". I'd say the same about the tea party demographic, "most" are in my age group.

190 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:47pm

re: #169 harry91

No they are not take Canada for instance:

Here is a handy Dandy calculator

[Link: www.walterharder.ca...]

Average tax rate in Ontario is...27.65%

And that includes commie healthcare and death panels for free!!!

Thanks - great link. Although I'm seeing tax rates over 27% - it depends on your income.

191 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:37:58pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a pretty ugly accusation.

OK, I'll spell it out:

A...C...L...U.

192 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:38:04pm

re: #140 rwmofo

Irrespective of my definition vs. your definition of "torture," which I don't think happened to KSM, if a democrat had been President on 9-11 and the exact same interrogations were performed by a democrat administration, I'M ALL FOR IT.

KSM bragged about slowly slicing Daniel Pearl's head off. He even made a video of it. After a lot of consultation, it was determined he could be water-boarded and as a result he sang like a bird. I hope democrats will be tough on murderers. Actually I wish democrats hated terrorists as much as they hate conservatives.

This may be all true, but many of those tortured were NOT guilty of anything.

This Dem want the country to follow the rule of law and this country has never condoned torture. Even Pres. Washington admonished our troops about treating the Hessians fairly. We have a long history of not torturing people. And since we have now learned they can get better information from treating people humanely it's ridiculous for anyone to defend torture.

193 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:38:13pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Well do you think if you killed three little girls and had two others dieing in some hide out and I was a cop; would it be abuse if I yelled at you? how about if I made you stay up all night asking questions? what if I said I was going to through you out of the window if you didn't tell me where those girls were? what if I said I was with the mexican government and was going to take you to prison in mexico?

I would not consider any of those to be abuse

Waterboarding, cold cell, sleep deprivation, well those are probably abusive, and the CIA, DIA, FBI, DOD, etc all wanted to know what they could do in the way of abuse and not step into torture. That is what the memos were about.

194 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:38:16pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Some dem libs think the GOP leaders ARE terrorists.

True, but too many conservatives now think that the Dems are traitors. Both accusations are wrong and destructive.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:38:17pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Some dem libs think the GOP leaders ARE terrorists.

LOTS of rep cons (is that a real abbreviation) think that Democratic leaders are terrorists.

196 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:38:32pm

re: #188 MandyManners

Aah mandy, you almost got a + for futurama reference.

You're still being awful this thread tho >>

197 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:39:10pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

That would be Dick Cheney who's currently acting as self-appointed gadfly assigned to undermining the president of the United States? It is not true, it's self-dramatizing bullshit.

At least terrorists are humble and know their place.

198 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:39:10pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

I skimmed the article but sort of dazed out after...

He did mention Al Qaeda'a #3 but I don't think he mentioned Zudayda. The author certainly wishes Yoo and Bush were guilty of heinous violations of their Constitutional limitations but it looks to me like it's the same wishful thinking from the Wingnuts who think healthcare reform is unconstitutional. If Bush was so out of line where are the legal rulings? Constitutional law is not a matter of personal opinion. You'd do better to work on understanding the logic behind the legal rulings rather than cling to a personal interpretation to suit your personal political agenda.

Don't get me wrong here. You can make a moral case against waterboarding based on your personal beliefs but not a Constitutional ruling.

What about the fact that we executed Japanese soldiers for doing it our boys during WW2?

199 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:39:17pm

re: #180 windsagio

OH lord.

Don't even start on that. Why are they any better than the people that served in WW1, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, or in the Civil War, or in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars?

Its romantic hogwash. They're no better or worse than any other generation.

Romantic hogwash? No. You are mistaken.

200 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:39:29pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist
I thought the Baby Boomers were defined as born between 1946-1964?
All I know is, I is one.

201 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:39:47pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

True, but too many conservatives now think that the Dems are traitors. Both accusations are wrong and destructive.

That's a conservative thought pattern, really. At least the Democrats can point to things like Gitmo and the Patriot act literally leaving entire swaths of the population in fear.

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:40:10pm

re: #191 rwmofo

OK, I'll spell it out:

A...C...L...U.

Oh, come ON. First, the ACLU is not a wing of the Democratic Party (although Reform Judaism is). Secondly, what is that supposed to mean? The ACLU defends and attacks the weirdest range of folks any of us have ever seen.

203 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:40:27pm

re: #180 windsagio
Okay. There's this expression, from Mandy, rhymes with hiss up a dope....

204 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:40:32pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

Must Concur. Allen Quist is a teabagger who can't figure out who the enemy is (hint: its not Americans who disagree with you). Here's some Green Day to remind him:


[Video]

Good, no great, music selection, DF. It argues the point better than I could this evening.

William

205 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:40:49pm

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

At least terrorists are humble and know their place.

They unclenched Nov 4th, 2008.

206 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:41:04pm

re: #179 iceweasel

Thats ok and I have read through much of your links while on LTG, didn't find anything that would change my mind. If you find anything new, let me know.

207 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:41:07pm

re: #199 wee fury

Oh really?

Tell me how someone who served in WW2 is better than someone who served in WW1.


The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan

208 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:41:22pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Some dem libs think the GOP leaders ARE terrorists.

And some GOPs conservatives think that some Liberals ARE terrorists.

I know it's equivocation, but crazy knows no political affiliation in this situation....

209 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:41:38pm

re: #187 goddamnedfrank

Too drunk to do math today, "five times a day, every day, for a month."

210 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:42:18pm

re: #199 wee fury
Your answer was way more polite.
I meant to say ' because my Dad is one of them', but I digressed...

211 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:42:28pm

re: #198 jamesfirecat

completely different technique. The water boarding the Japanese used and the one the US currently uses are completely different.

212 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:42:39pm

re: #207 windsagio

Oh really?

Tell me how someone who served in WW2 is better than someone who served in WW1.

The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan

Not to mention all the video games that end involve you kicking nazi ass!

213 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:03pm

re: #210 tradewind

My dad served in Vietnam. I'm sure yours is better tho.

After all, we WON WW2

214 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:07pm

re: #207 windsagio

The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan

That's because we've had 60 years to come up with all these movies as compared to, say, 30 for Vietnam and only about 5 for Iraq and Afghanistan.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:18pm

re: #193 lrsshadow

Well do you think if you killed three little girls and had two others dieing in some hide out and I was a cop; would it be abuse if I yelled at you? how about if I made you stay up all night asking questions? what if I said I was going to through you out of the window if you didn't tell me where those girls were? what if I said I was with the mexican government and was going to take you to prison in mexico?

I would not consider any of those to be abuse

Waterboarding, cold cell, sleep deprivation, well those are probably abusive, and the CIA, DIA, FBI, DOD, etc all wanted to know what they could do in the way of abuse and not step into torture. That is what the memos were about.

Do not bother to do the 'what if there was a ticking bomb under Times Square' thing with me. I agree with sagehen above. There are times when rules need to be broken, if you have a real crisis situation on your hands. Sometimes it's better to explain to twelve than be carried by six. But don't try the 'what if it was a rapist? What if it was little girls? What if, what if..."

Keeping a man standing and shackled for forty hours is still a torture technique in the real world.

What if ripping this hypothetical guy's toenails out will help you find the little girls? Will we then say it's still not torture?

216 jaunte  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:19pm

re: #207 windsagio

The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan


I think it's because Norman Borlaug was a member of the cohort.

217 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:23pm

There ain't no doubt I love this land.

Youtube Video
218 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:35pm

re: #180 windsagio

OH lord.

Don't even start on that. Why are they any better than the people that served in WW1, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, or in the Civil War, or in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars?

Its romantic hogwash. They're no better or worse than any other generation.


That generation rose up as one to defend America. This hasn't happened since. Why do you take exception?

219 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:42pm

re: #211 lrsshadow

completely different technique. The water boarding the Japanese used and the one the US currently uses are completely different.

Could you give me some links on how the Japanese did waterboarding?

Also if we did it completely differently, maybe we shouldn't have allowed it to be named after something that's a war crime....

220 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:43:58pm

re: #127 palomino

Sure, there's overlap in between. But I'd be willing to guess few oldsters are watching Stewart. And I don't think a lot of teens-20somethings are watching Fox News.

Anyway, my original point stands: you'd be better off getting news/commentary from Comedy Central than the propaganda/religious proselytizing/Palin lovefest propaganda machine known as Fox.

Maybe they should do something other than watch TV


"77% Oklahoma High School Students Can’t Name 1st President?"
A thousand students were given 10 questions drawn from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services item bank. Candidates for U.S. citizenship must answer six questions correctly in order to become citizens. About 92 percent of the people who take the citizenship test pass on their first try, according to immigration service data. However, Oklahoma students did not fare as well. Only about 3 percent of the students surveyed would have passed the citizenship test....
[Link: www.outsidethebeltway.com...]

221 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:14pm

re: #214 laZardo

That's because we've had 60 years to come up with all these movies as compared to, say, 30 for Vietnam and only about 5 for Iraq and Afghanistan.

They had WWII movies before the war was even over.

222 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:21pm

re: #206 lrsshadow

Thats ok and I have read through much of your links while on LTG, didn't find anything that would change my mind. If you find anything new, let me know.

Then you ignored every bit of evidence about the things we did that are torture.

Now you see why I wasn't going to bother to do your research for you. You simply won't read it.

223 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:28pm

re: #217 MandyManners

It was only a matter of time before Mandy pulled out the ol "flagee and ribbon" "Look at me I'm a PATRIOT!!!!" schtick.


Still manipulative, thanks.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:35pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Some dem libs think the GOP leaders ARE terrorists.

I just think they don't know what they're doing. Simple bad governance, bad strategy, selling out the future of their party for the present, allowing populist crazies to steer their message.

Birchers aren't terrorists. But can we agree that they represent a horrible thing and they're infecting the GOP?

225 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:55pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

They had WWII movies before the war was even over.

I loved the Looney Tunes ones.

226 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:44:57pm

re: #208 jamesfirecat
Then again, some of them actually are terrorists, masquerading as professors.
' Guilty as sin, Free as a bird'.... Bill Ayers, speaking of his escapades with wife Bernadine Dohrn.

227 avanti  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:45:23pm

re: #174 rwmofo

Here's that guy's quote:

"And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off."

I know some people who are over 65 and spend a lot of time on their PCs. I also have an aunt in her 70s who has been keeping up with the family via email for years. Plus the AARP Is no right-wing fringe group.

I'm only defending the elderly because so many of you are kicking them around when they're not here to look after themselves.

Note the "and much of the 65+ demo", I didn't miss that. Much of that demographic, not all. It's like the outrage about some Vets being radicalized turned into a slam of all vets.

228 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:45:27pm

re: #218 The Shadow Do

It certainly happened before. Also, America hasn't been attacked since, so we have no grounds for comparison.

229 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:45:32pm

Damn sorry to come to this thread 200 comments late but starting from the top...
re: #14 iceweasel
Hang on. My q for the left-Did Jon Stewart fail or was it the anti "Bush is a heartless torturer" point of view that failed? I should say seemed to as this is just one play of people facts and events. We often find the real truth as between the common points of view.

230 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:45:59pm

re: #207 windsagio

Oh really?

Tell me how someone who served in WW2 is better than someone who served in WW1.

The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan

The USA did not get into WWI until it was almost over. We did not send nearly as many troops into that war. The entire scope of WWI and WWII were completely different.

231 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:46:14pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

Do not bother to do the 'what if there was a ticking bomb under Times Square' thing with me. I agree with sagehen above. There are times when rules need to be broken, if you have a real crisis situation on your hands. Sometimes it's better to explain to twelve than be carried by six. But don't try the 'what if it was a rapist? What if it was little girls? What if, what if..."

Keeping a man standing and shackled for forty hours is still a torture technique in the real world.

What if ripping this hypothetical guy's toenails out will help you find the little girls? Will we then say it's still not torture?

KSM should have been waterboarded until it was ineffective, then summarily executed for what he did...case closed

232 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:46:40pm

re: #217 MandyManners

There ain't no doubt I love this land.


[Video]

I'm wearing a flag pin!

233 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:46:56pm

re: #173 windsagio

I concur. I find it frustrating, but I can understand it. After all some people have been trying to get some kind of national healthcare off and on, since Teddy first suggested it over a hundred years ago.

234 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:06pm

re: #211 lrsshadow

completely different technique. The water boarding the Japanese used and the one the US currently uses are completely different.

That is a lie, and shows that you have NOT read any of the CIA's own memos on the subject. They concluded that the waterboarding WAS torture, and was much worse than that which our own people in SERE training undergo-- which, you ignorant ass, was suspended everywhere but in the Navy because that milder version caused too much psychological damage to our troops.

Idiot.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:23pm

re: #226 tradewind

Then again, some of them actually are terrorists, masquerading as professors.
' Guilty as sin, Free as a bird'... Bill Ayers, speaking of his escapades with wife Bernadine Dohrn.

I'm pretty sure Ayers doesn't think of himself as a liberal.

236 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:26pm
I can't go even part way with you on this one.

I think its more that most people don't feel the need to thump their chests and remind people "OH GOD I HATE AL QAEDA SO MUCH!"

Sometimes we're reminding ourselves, when we feel unwelcome 9/10 normalcy returning to our psyches. We don't want to accept the idea that videotapes of jihadists sawing off our people's heads and then jeering in our faces is just a sad fact of life. Or videotapes of jihadists jeering in our faces before blowing up our people.

Christopher Hitchens is the only major left-leaning pundit I can think of who viscerally felt the evil of The Jihad, and the imperative of using American power to beat it back. Most others that I read in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 just tended to muse upon their mute shock, half-heartedly trying to talk themselves into believing that the attacks were, on balance, a bad thing. Katha Pollitt in The Nation:

My daughter, who goes to Stuyvesant High School only blocks from the World Trade Center, thinks we should fly an American flag out our window. Definitely not, I say: The flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war. She tells me I’m wrong—the flag means standing together and honoring the dead and saying no to terrorism. In a way we’re both right...

*Spit*

237 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:31pm

re: #62 palomino

And much of the 65+ demo gets its news from Fox and Rush. I'd say the younger generation is much better off.

I'm too old to be up this late, and this is my last post for the evening for that reason; but I do want to say you're full of ... and making a juvenile ass of yourself with assumptions.

238 harry91  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:33pm

re: #190 Racer X


Also depends on situation. If you are a single guy making a Bankers salary, sitting on your ass with no retirement plan and drinking beer, taxes go up.

If you have a family and a kid who drains your cash on 360 games and a retirement plan, taxes go down.

Like anywhere.


However, "free" healthcare. Or preventative care. It's all to do with walk-in clinics.

At a clinic you don't need a team of doctors only a few qualified nurses who can quickly shift the severe cases to hospital. The colds, flu and other crap can be dealt with.

It's affordable, it's doable. and gosh darn some people like it.

239 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:50pm

re: #230 wee fury

Which of course lessened those who served.

The only ways WW2 was different is that the US was actively attacked, and the fact that our opponents were freaking Nazis.

240 avanti  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:47:55pm

re: #191 rwmofo

OK, I'll spell it out:

A...C...L...U.

Yep, that's what it says on my membership card. Defending the constitution, even against unpopular thought or speech should not be a liberal concept.

241 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:48:16pm

re: #224 WindUpBird

I just think they don't know what they're doing. Simple bad governance, bad strategy, selling out the future of their party for the present, allowing populist crazies to steer their message.

Birchers aren't terrorists. But can we agree that they represent a horrible thing and they're infecting the GOP?

I just think they don't know what they're doing. Simple bad governance (unemployment getting higher), bad strategy (Iran has told use to go fuck ourselves), selling out the future of their party for the present (getting in bed with big pharma and the insurance companies), allowing populist crazies to steer their message (Damn, the Democrats have a majority and they still let those populist crazy GOP'ers obstruct the process).

242 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:48:41pm

re: #199 wee fury

Romantic hogwash? No. You are mistaken.

It is romantic hogwash. It's an arbitrary value judgement placed on people who were at a certain point in history. There is nothing inherently "greater" about a single human being, or a large group of human beings, by virtue of which war they served in.

243 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:48:47pm

re: #174 rwmofo

That's very nice of you, but really, it's almost impossible to tell someone's age over the internet. But sweet of you, thanks.

244 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:49:04pm

re: #226 tradewind

Then again, some of them actually are terrorists, masquerading as professors.
' Guilty as sin, Free as a bird'... Bill Ayers, speaking of his escapades with wife Bernadine Dohrn.

I don't think it's a fair to compare a 60's radical to modern day terrorists, after all if my memory serves the Weathermen never killed anyone....

245 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:49:10pm

re: #218 The Shadow Do

I know that's what romantic history tells us, however while some were rising up some were in "America First" and the German-American Bund.

246 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:49:17pm

re: #230 wee fury

The USA did not get into WWI until it was almost over. We did not send nearly as many troops into that war. The entire scope of WWI and WWII were completely different.

that's hindsight...there is no record, that I know of, that anybody was ready to surrender in WW1...do you have some info about that?

247 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:49:19pm

Anyone want to take bets on how soon the corporations that contract work to Haitian companies paying $0.12/hour (Disney, J.C. Penney, Hanes, and Wal-Mart, to name a few) will jump in with massive contributions to alleviate the suffering? And for how much?

Me, if I were a Haitian, I'd look for bread from the sky first.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:01pm

re: #191 rwmofo

OK, I'll spell it out:

A...C...L...U.

Look at all the talking points, see how they run!

249 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:16pm

re: #61 iceweasel

What of those who ran too far with Yoo's conclusions?

250 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:30pm

We are a tad off topic, not for the last time, but the generation that became adults in the 1920's gets my vote for the coolest generation - better than mine (early Gen X), better than my brother's (Gen Y) and WAY better than my boomer parents' generation.

The flapper girls of the 20's, in their day, would be more fun at parties than any hippy.

Compare the speakeasy to our marijuana co-ops. When they did things wrong they still did them well.

I have gotten onto a silent movie kick lately - those movies (pre-censor board) could get very racy, especially the Biblical epics - complete with Christians fighting lions in Rome - and alligators, and amazon women, and midgetslittle people with nets and knives.

251 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:37pm

re: #201 laZardo

That's a conservative thought pattern, really. At least the Democrats can point to things like Gitmo and the Patriot act literally leaving entire swaths of the population in fear.

Grow up, son.
There's nothing wrong with a conservative thought pattern if you're over 40. And anyone who actually thinks Gitmo is a device intended to terrorize the American public is a moonbat.

252 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:39pm

re: #234 iceweasel

That is a lie, and shows that you have NOT read any of the CIA's own memos on the subject. They concluded that the waterboarding WAS torture, and was much worse than that which our own people in SERE training undergo-- which, you ignorant ass, was suspended everywhere but in the Navy because that milder version caused too much psychological damage to our troops.

Idiot.

wow...you must be pissed!

253 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:50:49pm

re: #245 Thanos

I know that's what romantic history tells us, however while some were rising up some were in "America First" and the German-American Bund.

They were, but that was a very isolated minority after 7 December 1941.

Now if you want something to ruin the romantic history, you'd need to look to places like Manzanar.

254 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:51:13pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess where the real disconnect on this whole issue is you have a bunch of guys who do the interrogating, you have a public to protect, you have some bad guys who have info, what can you do, what should you do, and what is legal.

Congress and the Senate have been asked on multiple occasions by the CIA, FBI, and DOD to clearly state what should be done and how in actual Law. They have declined every time, it was left up to the white house counsel to figure it our with current law. With current law there is a huge gray area.

After all these years we still have a congress and senate who will not deal with this issue by clearly defined law, and a public that still doesn't understand the issue at all.

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:51:33pm

re: #236 The Sanity Inspector

Sometimes we're reminding ourselves, when we feel unwelcome 9/10 normalcy returning to our psyches. We don't want to accept the idea that videotapes of jihadists sawing off our people's heads and then jeering in our faces is just a sad fact of life. Or videotapes of jihadists jeering in our faces before blowing up our people.

Christopher Hitchens is the only major left-leaning pundit I can think of who viscerally felt the evil of The Jihad, and the imperative of using American power to beat it back. Most others that I read in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 just tended to muse upon their mute shock, half-heartedly trying to talk themselves into believing that the attacks were, on balance, a bad thing. Katha Pollitt in The Nation:

My daughter, who goes to Stuyvesant High School only blocks from the World Trade Center, thinks we should fly an American flag out our window. Definitely not, I say: The flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war. She tells me I’m wrong—the flag means standing together and honoring the dead and saying no to terrorism. In a way we’re both right...

*Spit*

My perspective is somewhat different.

256 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:51:36pm

re: #213 windsagio
Kudos to your Dad, and all who served. But the difference is that the greatest generation , upon returning from war, was more interested in building roads than raising hell in the streets.

257 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:51:49pm

It's important to remember that Jon Stewart is a comedian and not a trial lawyer. Along with this, it's not always the job of an interviewer to "prove someone wrong" and instead allow them to describe whatever topic it is they're focusing on which in this case was John Yoo's book and his role at justice.

There were many people involved in the decision making process leading to the water boarding. John Yoo played a role but he was not the sole protagonist for this case. I would also agree with Yoo that there are mechanisms in place within the various branches of government to limit the powers he saw as being constitutional and that includes congress and the judiciary branches.

258 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:51:56pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

I too it with a grain of sarc.

259 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:52:00pm

re: #177 WindUpBird

I'm sure I would like him. I know several "elderly" who watch Stewart and Colbert and actually understand some issues with personal history of issues. There really are some dumb shits, but that isn't generational, although I admit to really getting pissed when I hear an old idiot say they want the government to keep it's hands off their medicare.

260 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:52:29pm

re: #251 Spare O'Lake

Grow up, son.
There's nothing wrong with a conservative thought pattern if you're over 40. And anyone who actually thinks Gitmo is a device intended to terrorize the American public is a moonbat.

Considering that there really was a risk of getting blackbagged and shipped off to Gitmo or some secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe, I guess we should be thankful that the magnitude of the internet enabled the preservation of our freedom to criticize the government.

261 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:52:38pm

OK, I was gone for a while. Did I miss anything? Heh.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:52:39pm

re: #240 avanti

Yep, that's what it says on my membership card. Defending the constitution, even against unpopular thought or speech should not be a liberal concept.

Man, no kidding. Everything must be on the stupid, simplistic right/left axis! My football team or their football team! Root root root mindlessly for tribalism, now and forever. Whee!

263 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:52:39pm

re: #250 keloyd

Updinged for awesome weirdness >>

Seriously tho', there is no 'greatest generation'. Each one had its own triumphs and failures.

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:00pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

I don't think it's a fair to compare a 60's radical to modern day terrorists, after all if my memory serves the Weathermen never killed anyone...

They almost assuredly killed a San Francisco police officer.

They were definitely less effective than any current terrorist organization I can think of.

265 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:09pm

Ya know, you have to be a real piece of work to downding a poster who simply posts a video.

If you disagree with that poster say so. If you dislike that poster ignore the post. Hell, I ignore quite a few posts here on LGF. I'm sure many of mine get ignored too (probably this one).

But downdinging the most mundane posts just seems childish to me.

You know who I'm talking about.

266 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:14pm

re: #220 captdiggs

Maybe they should do something other than watch TV

"77% Oklahoma High School Students Can’t Name 1st President?"
A thousand students were given 10 questions drawn from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services item bank. Candidates for U.S. citizenship must answer six questions correctly in order to become citizens. About 92 percent of the people who take the citizenship test pass on their first try, according to immigration service data. However, Oklahoma students did not fare as well. Only about 3 percent of the students surveyed would have passed the citizenship test...
[Link: www.outsidethebeltway.com...]

well that's just lame. How about posting the whole entry, debunking this stupid minarchist meme:

This meme is spreading through the blogosphere with the consensus being that our education system is failing and our students are dumber than a bag of hammers.

But here’s the thing: I simply don’t believe these results are accurate. I taught Politics 101 to college freshmen for a decade, so I’m under no illusion that our kids have a strong working knowledge of how our system works. (Indeed, having administered basic geography tests as part of my World Politics course, I’m shocked that 61% not only know the Atlantic Ocean but that they know east from west.) I could see students not knowing the answers to several of the questions above, especially framed as they are. But, seriously, your average 6-year-old knows who George Washington is. They couldn’t tell you anything about his administration, of course, but they know: wooden teeth, chopped down cherry tree, couldn’t tell a lie, Martha, and 1st president. It’s, frankly, trivia. (And hagiography in the case of the cherry tree fable.) But they know it nonetheless.

Tom Maguire took the time to click the link to the actual survey results. He observes, “in defense of the Oklahomans, a ten question test was administered by telephone to one thousand high school students. That has to be an unfamiliar format for the respondents, and probably not all of them gave it their best shot. Still, this is pretty grim.”

Actually, it’s worse than that. The exam was commissioned by a conservative activist organization whose mission is to show how lousy public schools are so as to advocate for home schooling and private, religious schools. Read the long diatribe that serves as the press release for the survey’s results.SNIP

267 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:30pm

re: #256 tradewind

Thats TERRIBLE. And prejudiced.

Like I said, each generation had its own successes and failures.

268 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:38pm

re: #220 captdiggs

I'm calling shenanigans on that survey. I am guessing (hoping) that they measured the amount that kids are willing to blow off a questionaire that appears to them to be a waste of time. It measures mischief as well as ignorance.

269 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:53:40pm

re: #262 WindUpBird

Man, no kidding. Everything must be on the stupid, simplistic right/left axis! My football team or their football team! Root root root mindlessly for tribalism, now and forever. Whee!

I bet you're some Thete, probably never even belonged to a Phyle.

270 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:54:14pm

re: #211 lrsshadow

completely different technique. The water boarding the Japanese used and the one the US currently uses are completely different.

GAZE

William

271 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:54:18pm

re: #247 Cato the Elder

Anyone want to take bets on how soon the corporations that contract work to Haitian companies paying $0.12/hour (Disney, J.C. Penney, Hanes, and Wal-Mart, to name a few) will jump in with massive contributions to alleviate the suffering? And for how much?

Me, if I were a Haitian, I'd look for bread from the sky first.

the Haitians are super fucked...nobody ever cared about their welfare til now...other than your typical lockdown now and then to keep them under control

272 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:55:10pm

re: #256 tradewind

also about my dad. Yeah its good he served. He also voted for Nixon 3 times. Not exactly smashing windows or throwing feces at cops, is it?

273 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:55:27pm

re: #217 MandyManners

Sorry, Mandy but I had to downding this time. Posting that song is not an argument. If you think windsagio and iceweasel are wrong, debate them. Don't just fling hostile posts. Its beneath you, and frankly it's what taxfreekiller used to do here and still does on the stalker blog.

274 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:55:45pm

re: #260 laZardo

Considering that there really was a risk of getting blackbagged and shipped off to Gitmo or some secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe, I guess we should be thankful that the magnitude of the internet enabled the preservation of our freedom to criticize the government.

You do realize that those freedoms you enjoy are in large part due to people in the CIA, the military, etc. ...don't you?

275 Kewalo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:56:08pm

re: #189 avanti

Well, I'm 67, don't match that group, but not offended since he said "most". I'd say the same about the tea party demographic, "most" are in my age group.

AHA! I knew I wasn't alone here. I'm 66 and when I look at the teabaggers there does seem to be a lot of old people doesn't there? It's very annoying to me.

276 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:56:35pm

re: #239 windsagio

Which of course lessened those who served.

The only ways WW2 was different is that the US was actively attacked, and the fact that our opponents were freaking Nazis.

No. WWII had young men (volunteers and draftees) who were born during the depression. They saw the death camps. They saw an opponent who would rather die than surrender. They came back home and tied to make a better life for themselves through education. They were a great generation. I'm not saying that they were heroes -- (to me that connotation belongs to someone like Audie Murphy) -- but they did their duty. And, made the world a better place in doing it.

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:56:51pm

re: #256 tradewind

Kudos to your Dad, and all who served. But the difference is that the greatest generation , upon returning from war, was more interested in building roads than raising hell in the streets.

So if you're all greatest generation-tootin', does that mean you're pro-New Deal?

278 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:56:54pm

re: #223 windsagio

It was only a matter of time before Mandy pulled out the ol "flagee and ribbon" "Look at me I'm a PATRIOT!!!" schtick.


Still manipulative, thanks.

Love of country is too close for comfort to fascism in dem lib America.

279 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:57:13pm

re: #219 jamesfirecat

Could you give me some links on how the Japanese did waterboarding?

Also if we did it completely differently, maybe we shouldn't have allowed it to be named after something that's a war crime...

Japanese;

The Japanese used salt-water which, in and of itself, cause deaths on it's own. When that wouldn't work, the interrogators would beat the subject while they were "drowning". To take it to a whole other level, they would lower the board and then jump on the stomachs of the individuals causing internal damage and vomiting. This would essentially "purge" the system to start all over again.


US;

We use fresh water, we do not beat, we tie the detainee to a board on their back, tie a piece of cloth around the nose and pour water in the mouth for 30-90 seconds (that is all it takes most of the time).

280 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:57:21pm

re: #274 captdiggs

I don't doubt the integrity of the majority of those in military and secret/black-ops service that really do believe they're helping America. However I do have every right to take aim at the policies that send them to conflicts of dubious foundations. And there is still that minority of them that aren't as...morally sound.

281 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:57:30pm

re: #262 WindUpBird

Man, no kidding. Everything must be on the stupid, simplistic right/left axis! My football team or their football team! Root root root mindlessly for tribalism, now and forever. Whee!

once again for fun...do you think Las Cruces should change their name?...the ACLU threatened to take them to court if they didn't

282 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:57:37pm

re: #247 Cato the Elder

Anyone want to take bets on how soon the corporations that contract work to Haitian companies paying $0.12/hour (Disney, J.C. Penney, Hanes, and Wal-Mart, to name a few) will jump in with massive contributions to alleviate the suffering? And for how much?

Me, if I were a Haitian, I'd look for bread from the sky first.

Good to know that you actually researched this issue after I put it to you, Cato.

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:58:06pm

re: #276 wee fury

No. WWII had young men (volunteers and draftees) who were born during the depression. They saw the death camps. They saw an opponent who would rather die than surrender. They came back home and tied to make a better life for themselves through education. They were a great generation. I'm not saying that they were heroes -- (to me that connotation belongs to someone like Audie Murphy) -- but they did their duty. And, made the world a better place in doing it.

Every generation does their duty and makes the world a better place.

My generation is running the internet, for example. You think it's a bunch of 70-somethings running Google?

284 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:58:07pm

re: #278 Spare O'Lake

You don't get it.

You're being actively manipulated into exactly that position.

I'm against the action because its a freaking dirty trick, and not substantive at all.

285 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:58:39pm

re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist

They almost assuredly killed a San Francisco police officer.

They were definitely less effective than any current terrorist organization I can think of.

And their most famous explosion was what LGF would dub a "work accident."

286 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:59:19pm

re: #266 Vambo

Even your "debunker" says:

"Still, this is pretty grim.”.

Though not scientific, Jay Leno made it a regular spot on the tonight show to ask "man on the street" questions of many young people.
The reason, because the ignorance was astoundingly funny. Usually 3 out of 4 could not even name the current vice president.

287 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:59:29pm

re: #249 Rightwingconspirator

What of those who ran too far with Yoo's conclusions?

Those will likely be the only ones who even get any punishment. IMO it's wrong to punish the soldiers and low-level operatives who exceeded those guidelines, without acknowledging the whole culture and framework of enablers and the architects of the policies.
Instead, we'll have a few people take all the heat. This is partly because Obama needs to cover his own ass.

288 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:59:32pm

re: #228 windsagio

It certainly happened before. Also, America hasn't been attacked since, so we have no grounds for comparison.

I see. The threat level being the same as 1941 then subsequent generations would be no better nor worse. This makes complete sense if you discount the post war threat of global communism and now the global threat of fundamentalist Islamism.

OK

289 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 7:59:58pm

re: #256 tradewind

Kudos to your Dad, and all who served. But the difference is that the greatest generation , upon returning from war, was more interested in building roads than raising hell in the streets.

the Greatest Generation will be dead soon. Then we'll get to hear crap like this from the next generation of crusty old geezers. Never-ending of cycle of bullshit.

290 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:00:26pm

re: #171 tradewind

The greatest generation raised the flower children generation.

291 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:00:27pm

re: #174 rwmofo

My father's 72 and he spends a lot of his free time downloading movies and tv shows and making phone calls via Skype. He's a retired information professional, so that's normal for him.

292 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #207 windsagio

Oh really?

Tell me how someone who served in WW2 is better than someone who served in WW1.

The whole 'greatest generation' thing is because there are a ton of Movies and such about WW2, and not much glamorizing other wars. See: Saving Private Ryan

Movies? Movies!?!? It was the biggest war in history, calling up more Americans to serve than any war before or since. If it had occurred in the 19th Century, against foes as evil as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, it would have had the same unifying effect, and the veterans would have earned--and deserved--just as much honor and respect as they did in real life.

If you don't have time for this video, open the More Info and scope the lyrics.

Youtube Video
293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:00:57pm

re: #278 Spare O'Lake

Love of country is too close for comfort to fascism in dem lib America.

I love my country, I love it so much that I can criticize my country when it does horrible and stupid shit, and work to help get people elected who will make it better.

294 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:01:00pm

re: #278 Spare O'Lake

Love of country is too close for comfort to fascism in dem lib America.

More jingositic bullshit and mindless hate of other americans-- who simply don't share your warped political ideology.
We're America too. Get used to it.

295 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:01:09pm

re: #234 iceweasel

ok I guess you were a SERE instructor sorry. I didn't know that you were a wholey trained secrete squirrel who knew about all this stuff. I was only in the ARMY for 9 years and just thought you were another guy just reading blogs and memos and stuff. My apologies.

296 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:01:12pm

re: #276 wee fury

You are still greatly lessening the contributions of say... the people who came home after the Civil War and had to try to rebuild a nation, especially in the South, from ruins. They sat down and got to business, working from nothing and built a successful section of the nation again.

Some poor man from the Tennessee mountains rebuilding his burnt farm is a far more impressive man than the guy coming back from WW2 into the essentially guaranteed (see:Marshall Plan) success and growth of the US after WW2

297 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:01:24pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat
Not for lack of effort....
[Link: www.city-journal.org...]

I was only nine then, the year that Bill Ayers' Weathermen tried to murder me....

.
Or admiration... this from Ayers' wife..

“Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson,” The New York Times quotes Dohrn as saying at a convention of the Students for a Democratic Society.


[Link: digg.com...]

298 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:02:18pm

The greatest generation is always the next one.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:02:40pm

re: #274 captdiggs

You do realize that those freedoms you enjoy are in large part due to people in the CIA, the military, etc. ...don't you?

Ah yes, the great argument. They fight for your freedom of speech, so shut up.

Sorry, I have more respect for them and this country than that.

300 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:02:43pm

Hmm, maybe I should give up.

The Greatest Generation myth is soo deeply entrenched we'd probably need nuclear explosives to dig it out at this point.

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:05pm

re: #289 Vambo

the Greatest Generation will be dead soon. Then we'll get to hear crap like this from the next generation of crusty old geezers. Never-ending of cycle of bullshit.

Yep! Every generation gotta puff themselves up and claim they're the cosmic key to the universe and that the world would have fallen apart without them.

302 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:13pm

re: #297 tradewind

Not for lack of effort...
[Link: www.city-journal.org...]


[Link: digg.com...]

Okay then, I'll concede my bad on this one....

303 sagehen  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:17pm

re: #174 rwmofo


I'm only defending the elderly because so many of you are kicking them around when they're not here to look after themselves.

But if they were really that net-active, they *would* be here to look after themselves.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:35pm

re: #278 Spare O'Lake

Love of country is too close for comfort to fascism in dem lib America.

I'm having a real hard time not using a lot of profanity right now.

305 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:36pm

re: #294 iceweasel

More jingositic bullshit and mindless hate of other americans-- who simply don't share your warped political ideology.
We're America too. Get used to it.

Isn't Spare Canadian? :D Maybe I'm mixing him up with someone else.

306 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:36pm

re: #298 Thanos

The greatest generation is always the next one.

I cannot believe anybody is arguing about a book title...peoples opinion varies, big whoop

307 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:52pm

re: #279 lrsshadow

I'm going to tie up both the ongoing greatest generation debate and propriety of waterboarding debate with the observation that the remaining US members of the greatest generation that actually served in WWII and actually interrogated Axis prisoners are not amused by your shenanigans.

308 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:03:58pm

re: #272 windsagio
Your Dad and his fellow veterans are patriots, unlike the members of their generation who reviled them for their service.
I know you are proud of him.

309 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:04:25pm

re: #19 TampaKnight

This is what continually BUGS me about the left who claim Stewart is never fair game because he's "comedy" and not real news.

The fact is, he absolutely has become a figure of news critique and insight, even if he is aired on Comedy Central.

I agree that Stewart plays the "I'm just a comedian" card too often.

BUT he still takes himself far less seriously and never claims to be an expert, unlike most of the right-wing blowholes he gets compared to.

310 jaunte  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:04:39pm

re: #306 albusteve

The word "Greatest" stimulates a lot of discussion. Clever author.

311 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:04:45pm

Gay Teen Worried He Might Be Christian

At first glance, high school senior Lucas Faber, 18, seems like any ordinary gay teen. He's a member of his school's swing choir, enjoys shopping at the mall, and has sex with other males his age. But lately, a growing worry has begun to plague this young gay man. A gnawing feeling that, deep down, he may be a fundamentalist, right-wing Christian.

312 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:04:50pm

re: #300 windsagio

Hmm, maybe I should give up.

The Greatest Generation myth is soo deeply entrenched we'd probably need nuclear explosives to dig it out at this point.

good idea...it's going nowhere...in my life I'm the most important person ever born...like that

313 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:05:20pm

re: #301 WindUpBird
It's gonna be great. We'll hear heart-tugging tales of how Grandpappy overcame the effects of brown acid and lived to tell about Woodstock and how he actually touched Richie Havens' robe.///

314 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:05:35pm

re: #310 jaunte

The word "Greatest" stimulates a lot of discussion. Clever author.

it only works for Ali imo

315 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:05:47pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm having a real hard time not using a lot of profanity right now.

It's weak sauce, it's paranoid Free Republic crap he's slinging.

316 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:05:51pm

re: #286 captdiggs

Even your "debunker" says:

"Still, this is pretty grim.”.

Though not scientific, Jay Leno made it a regular spot on the tonight show to ask "man on the street" questions of many young people.
The reason, because the ignorance was astoundingly funny. Usually 3 out of 4 could not even name the current vice president.

That's YOUR debunker, it's YOUR link!

Isn't it kind of strange that NONE of the 1000 students answered the last 5 questions correctly? Doesn't it seem likely that the students hung up the phone before the test was done because they had better things to do? (like schoolwork, perhaps, instead of serving of think tank's agenda)

317 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:05:52pm

re: #308 tradewind

I think you hit on something here. (and lets depersonalize it >>)

The lionization of the WW2 generation is probably directly tied to the hate of the Boomers, especially the boomer left (ie hippies and yippies).

318 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:07:01pm

re: #311 Racer X

Gay Teen Worried He Might Be Christian

At first glance, high school senior Lucas Faber, 18, seems like any ordinary gay teen. He's a member of his school's swing choir, enjoys shopping at the mall, and has sex with other males his age. But lately, a growing worry has begun to plague this young gay man. A gnawing feeling that, deep down, he may be a fundamentalist, right-wing Christian.

Heh. I remember that from downthread.

319 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:07:07pm

re: #295 lrsshadow

Ok shithead. You want links?
You've been spamming threads with your bullshit list of 'torture techniques' and your torture apologetics for weeks. I clocked you early on, and I know what you're about.

I'm going to make it my personal mission to keep an eye on those posts of yours, and every time you try to disseminate your wingnut lies and torture apologetics, I'll be whipping out a list of the links that disprove you. The ones I've provided here before, and you were too lazy (or deceitful) to read.
I don't give a shit if you do. But it'll keep others from believing your lies.

You're welcome. Be seeing you.

320 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:07:11pm

re: #300 windsagio

Hmm, maybe I should give up.

The Greatest Generation myth is soo deeply entrenched we'd probably need nuclear explosives to dig it out at this point.

No, no do go on. Expose them for the average schmucks that they were.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:07:27pm

re: #281 albusteve

once again for fun...do you think Las Cruces should change their name?...the ACLU threatened to take them to court if they didn't

I don't know why we keep coming back to this, but here's my stance--the city of Las Cruces should not change their name. I believe that it is only right and proper to keep lovely old place-names that show the history of the various regions of the United States. Also, if Las Cruces has to change, so will Los Angeles, and San Francisco, and Santa Cruz, and San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara, and Santa Monica, and San Pablo, and also Maryland, and you get the idea. Slippery slope.

I do however feel that the name of the town of Accept Jesus Or Go To Hell, Go Directly To Hell, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect Two Hundred Dollars, NV should be changed. For one thing, it's offensive, and for another, small children are failing second grade because they can't write their addresses.

322 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:08:04pm

re: #286 captdiggs

Even your "debunker" says:

"Still, this is pretty grim.”.

Though not scientific, Jay Leno made it a regular spot on the tonight show to ask "man on the street" questions of many young people.
The reason, because the ignorance was astoundingly funny. Usually 3 out of 4 could not even name the current vice president.

He is pretty forgettable.

323 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:08:25pm

re: #198 jamesfirecat

What about the fact that we executed Japanese soldiers for doing it our boys during WW2?

Double Tenth Incident?
There was much more than mere waterboarding going on. Also worth noting that about 20% of the victims died from the various forms of torture used and many, if not most, were innocent. Hardly analogous to what happened at Gitmo but if you believe that Bush and the US military are evil monsters then you're entitled to your opinion.

324 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:08:30pm

re: #271 albusteve

the Haitians are super fucked...nobody ever cared about their welfare til now...other than your typical lockdown now and then to keep them under control

Nobody gives a shit about the Haitians because they can't blame their troubles on the Juice.

325 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:08:30pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah yes, the great argument. They fight for your freedom of speech, so shut up.

Sorry, I have more respect for them and this country than that.

Oh please...
That moonbat was going on about the threat of US citizens being shipped off to secret CIA prisons in eastern europe.

326 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:08:56pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a high pass in the Sierra, on the John Muir Trail, called Hell for Sure Pass.

327 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:09:25pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Ok shithead. You want links?
You've been spamming threads with your bullshit list of 'torture techniques' and your torture apologetics for weeks. I clocked you early on, and I know what you're about.

I'm going to make it my personal mission to keep an eye on those posts of yours, and every time you try to disseminate your wingnut lies and torture apologetics, I'll be whipping out a list of the links that disprove you. The ones I've provided here before, and you were too lazy (or deceitful) to read.
I don't give a shit if you do. But it'll keep others from believing your lies.

You're welcome. Be seeing you.

Mom!

I can't go to bed right now. There's someone on the internets who is wrong!

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:09:29pm

re: #300 windsagio

Hmm, maybe I should give up.

The Greatest Generation myth is soo deeply entrenched we'd probably need nuclear explosives to dig it out at this point.

Just go with it. They were a pretty great generation.

329 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:09:30pm

Sometimes this blog reminds me of this.

330 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:09:37pm

re: #145 windsagio

no, but I would want it in over *nothing*

We can work up to single payer :D

Upding for honesty, this is engrenage in action.

331 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:09:44pm

re: #313 tradewind

It's gonna be great. We'll hear heart-tugging tales of how Grandpappy overcame the effects of brown acid and lived to tell about Woodstock and how he actually touched Richie Havens' robe.///

No, you're going to hear heart tugging tales from my friends who are now in their 30s and 40s about how they engineered, designed, and maintained the various interlocking infrastructures you rely on for every single byte of data you send across a cell phone, over the internet, to your bank...

Wars are easy to romanticize. Wars have always been easy to romanticize. Infrastructure is less easy to romanticize, less easy to wistfully wax poetic on.

332 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:10:10pm

re: #320 The Shadow Do


Wow.

You are deeply emotionally committed to either the idea that you're better than everyone else, or to the idea that someone else is better than you.

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:10:12pm

re: #317 windsagio

I think you hit on something here. (and lets depersonalize it >>)

The lionization of the WW2 generation is probably directly tied to the hate of the Boomers, especially the boomer left (ie hippies and yippies).

Yep. There's always gotta be an axis. Always gotta be a demonization of the other.

334 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:10:20pm

Evening everyone!

I'm in and out tonight, but I found a report from a hospital 40 miles Northwest of Port-Au-Prince. Thought you might like to see it.

News from Haiti

Ever since early this morning, a steady stream of vehicles, mainly the open-back pickups which serve as public taxis on Haiti's roads, has come to the front of the hospital. In the back are one or two people, their legs or arms covered in bandages or clothes. HAS security staff rush out to the truck with a backboard or gurney, and bring the patient inside to be triaged by the emergency team.Now, in early afternoon, a crowd of over 200 people are outside the hospital, friends or neighbors of injured patients.

335 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:10:25pm

re: #260 laZardo

Considering that there really was a risk of getting blackbagged and shipped off to Gitmo or some secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe, I guess we should be thankful that the magnitude of the internet enabled the preservation of our freedom to criticize the government.

I really hate it when the CIA blackbags US citizens and ships them off to Gitmo...care to name some?

336 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:10:43pm

re: #330 Bagua

hah thats what we came to before. You just think its a bad thing :p

337 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:03pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know why we keep coming back to this, but here's my stance--the city of Las Cruces should not change their name. I believe that it is only right and proper to keep lovely old place-names that show the history of the various regions of the United States. Also, if Las Cruces has to change, so will Los Angeles, and San Francisco, and Santa Cruz, and San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara, and Santa Monica, and San Pablo, and also Maryland, and you get the idea. Slippery slope.

I do however feel that the name of the town of Accept Jesus Or Go To Hell, Go Directly To Hell, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect Two Hundred Dollars, NV should be changed. For one thing, it's offensive, and for another, small children are failing second grade because they can't write their addresses.

HA!...well said...the ACLU should stick to what they do best and leave place names and antique momentoes alone

338 sagehen  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:26pm

re: #180 windsagio

Why are they any better than the people that served in WW1, or in Korea, or in Vietnam, or in the Civil War, or in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars?

Its romantic hogwash. They're no better or worse than any other generation.

Because it was the *entire* generation that did the job, not just some self-selected 2%, or a drafted 5%.

In WWII, a full 10% of the population (meaning -- 80% of the men between 18-34 and non-trivial percentage of women) were in uniform on battlefields. The adults back home worked 60 hours a week in defense plants (gov't-sponsored child-care so parents of small children would be able to work those jobs), while adolescents grew vegetables and scavenged for recyclable metal and paper and nylon and string, and the blackouts and the 85% income tax rates, the sugar and coffee and gas rationing, and prison sentences for war profiteering...

It really was all-in.

339 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:35pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm deeply humanistic in my view point, and believe that no person or group is inherently better or worse than any other. it upsets me to no end.

340 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:49pm

Hell for Sure Pass

341 tradewind  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:51pm

re: #317 windsagio
Quite possibly.
Peace out, or whatever.//

Goodnight, ya'll. Pray for the situation in Haiti to improve, and for wisdom for the people in charge of doing something.
One thing is sure, it's miles above my pay grade.

342 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:11:56pm

Heh: Asshole Relidious Right prayer warrior Chuck Colson strongarming the media way back when:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Charles Colson, special counsel to President Richard M. Nixon, suggested in January 1973 that The Washington Post fire Executive Editor Ben Bradlee, pull Watergate stories off the front page or produce "obviously friendly editorials" on the Vietnam War as ways to prove it wanted to end its warfare with the White House, according to a document released Monday by the Nixon Presidential Library.

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:12:04pm

re: #313 tradewind

It's gonna be great. We'll hear heart-tugging tales of how Grandpappy overcame the effects of brown acid and lived to tell about Woodstock and how he actually touched Richie Havens' robe.///

I was once on a blog with a guy who commented "I wonder what it's like for WWII vets to hear about WWII reenactors. I know that if when I'm a real old guy they have Vietname reenactors, I'm gonna think it's weird."

The next post "Uh, Larry, I hate to tell you this, but..." and links.

344 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:12:12pm

re: #220 captdiggs

Maybe they should do something other than watch TV

"77% Oklahoma High School Students Can’t Name 1st President?"
A thousand students were given 10 questions drawn from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services item bank. Candidates for U.S. citizenship must answer six questions correctly in order to become citizens. About 92 percent of the people who take the citizenship test pass on their first try, according to immigration service data. However, Oklahoma students did not fare as well. Only about 3 percent of the students surveyed would have passed the citizenship test...
[Link: www.outsidethebeltway.com...]

Before you throw that OK survey around as a sign of the downfall of western civilization, you might want to know a little more about it.
Strategic Vision survey dubious

345 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:12:18pm

re: #332 windsagio

Wow.

You are deeply emotionally committed to either the idea that you're better than everyone else, or to the idea that someone else is better than you.

What an odd statement.

346 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:12:57pm

re: #327 Racer X

Mom!

I can't go to bed right now. There's someone on the internets who is wrong!

LOL!....on a mission from GOD!

347 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:12:59pm

re: #319 iceweasel

You've been spamming threads with your bullshit list of 'torture techniques' and your torture apologetics for weeks. I clocked you early on, and I know what you're about.


I'd take it easy if I were you. You were pimping a bogus article upthread claiming Yoo named Zubayda as Al Qaeda's #3 and thus deserving of torture. It's a strawman and if I bothered to check the rest of the article I assume the rest would be equally full of shit.

348 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:13:02pm

re: #287 iceweasel

Obama does not need to cover for GWB. Under the new President's watch, we rolled back the allowable interrogation methods. Unless I misunderstood?

349 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:13:06pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

Just go with it. They were a pretty great generation.

I'm happy for their contribution!

Less happy about them being used as a self-righteous club to demonize the generation after them.

350 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:13:25pm

re: #284 windsagio

You don't get it.

You're being actively manipulated into exactly that position.

I'm against the action because its a freaking dirty trick, and not substantive at all.

It's called giving your government and your military the benefit of the doubt, especially in time of war.

351 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:13:27pm

re: #326 Ojoe

There's a high pass in the Sierra, on the John Muir Trail, called Hell for Sure Pass.

There's a creek in North Carolina which used to be called Shit Britches Creek. Apparently someone in the long, long ago saw an Indian washing himself there after a potty accident, according to the gazetteer I saw.

352 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:03pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Wow, you really were a SERE instructor, you don't have to be so mean.

I don't have an agenda, other than I got a few friends who are still walking some dangerous earth, plus I have walked some of that ground myself, and I like a little bit of clarity on what we are talking about. Being that you have been there and done that a whole lot more then me I guess I will have to take your word for it then. Once again I am sorry for getting you all flustered, please have a cup of tea and chill out.

353 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:06pm

re: #296 windsagio

You are still greatly lessening the contributions of say... the people who came home after the Civil War and had to try to rebuild a nation, especially in the South, from ruins. They sat down and got to business, working from nothing and built a successful section of the nation again.

Some poor man from the Tennessee mountains rebuilding his burnt farm is a far more impressive man than the guy coming back from WW2 into the essentially guaranteed (see:Marshall Plan) success and growth of the US after WW2

No. I am not. You are moving goalposts. Civil War versus WWII is like comparing the Peloponnesian War to that of the Greek War of Independence.

And, I really doubt if Viet Nam Vets will ever be called the greatest generation . . . or anything near that.

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:13pm

re: #324 Alouette

Nobody gives a shit about the Haitians because they can't blame their troubles on the Juice.

Too Goddamn True.

Maybe Israel should invade Haiti, just to help out?

355 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:17pm

re: #325 captdiggs

Oh please...
That moonbat was going on about the threat of US citizens being shipped off to secret CIA prisons in eastern europe.

Yeah, we'd never do anything like that.

Reminder: Jose Padilla? US citizen.
Legally convicted in a criminal court, by the way.
Oh yeah, those dirty bomb charges. Totally false.
B-b-but how could the wonderful US gov't have made such an error?
Because the only 'evidence' they had about any dirty bomb was....obtained via torture.

Oh yeah, and we tortured Padilla too.

356 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:22pm

re: #338 sagehen

Gas and tires and shoes and sugar and plenty of other stuff was rationed.

You couldn't request songs on the radio (to stop pre arranged codes)

Letters from your kid in the service were censored.

We lost 400,000.

It was all in.

357 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:14:34pm

re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist

I was once on a blog with a guy who commented "I wonder what it's like for WWII vets to hear about WWII reenactors. I know that if when I'm a real old guy they have Vietname reenactors, I'm gonna think it's weird."

The next post "Uh, Larry, I hate to tell you this, but..." and links.

I will say, there have not been many successful video games set in Vietnam. Perhaps because it's hard to abstract jungle fighting, and much easier to abstract major battles in WWII.

358 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:00pm

re: #335 Spare O'Lake

Can't draw up specific names yet...but I can say there was the risk.

359 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:03pm

re: #350 Spare O'Lake

It's called giving your government and your military the benefit of the doubt, especially in time of war.

Yes, Vietnam was a totally worthy thing and we should have kept fighting there as long as it took, right?

360 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:08pm

re: #325 captdiggs

Oh please...
That moonbat was going on about the threat of US citizens being shipped off to secret CIA prisons in eastern europe.

I lost the train of the thread, and apologize for that, although I stand by my general annoyance with that line of argument.

361 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:27pm

re: #347 Killgore Trout

I'd take it easy if I were you. You were pimping a bogus article upthread claiming Yoo named Zubayda as Al Qaeda's #3 and thus deserving of torture. It's a strawman and if I bothered to check the rest of the article I assume the rest would be equally full of shit.

Thank you, I guess I wasn't see things then?

362 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:28pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

My perspective is somewhat different.

Share it; or direct me to it if you already did.

363 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:38pm

re: #347 Killgore Trout

I'd take it easy if I were you. You were pimping a bogus article upthread claiming Yoo named Zubayda as Al Qaeda's #3 and thus deserving of torture. It's a strawman and if I bothered to check the rest of the article I assume the rest would be equally full of shit.

You'd be wrong, though.

364 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:15:58pm

re: #353 wee fury

"GREATEST" doesn't mean "BETTER THAN THOSE DAMN LOSERS AROUND DURING VIETNAM".

Altho, thank you. You EXACTLY proved my point at 317.

Its tied to angst and hate re: the upheavals of the 60s and 70s.

365 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:16:08pm

re: #339 windsagio

I'm deeply humanistic in my view point, and believe that no person or group is inherently better or worse than any other. it upsets me to no end.

you'll be over it by tomorrow...it was a unique event, not about better or worse...you take "Greatest" too seriously....sagehen pretty much sums it up and that cannot be refuted....you can be the Greatest someday if you want

366 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:16:29pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Too Goddamn True.

Maybe Israel should invade Haiti, just to help out?

They're already on it.

367 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:16:39pm

re: #363 iceweasel

You'd be wrong, though.

About the rest of the article, that is, KT. I take the earlier point.

368 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:17:33pm

re: #351 The Sanity Inspector

There's a creek in North Carolina which used to be called Shit Britches Creek. Apparently someone in the long, long ago saw an Indian washing himself there after a potty accident, according to the gazetteer I saw.

Then there's this town in Austria.

369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:17:35pm

Fighty McNasty's here tonight?

370 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:17:43pm

sigh, CAPS is the hallmark of an incompetant poster.

I need to take a break >>

371 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:18:03pm

re: #370 windsagio

so I will!

372 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:18:03pm

re: #346 albusteve

Youtube Video
373 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:18:08pm

re: #353 wee fury


And, I really doubt if Viet Nam Vets will ever be called the greatest generation . . . or anything near that.

a comment from earlier in the thread seems appropriate here...

"HOW DARE YOU!!"

374 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:18:14pm

re: #339 windsagio

I'm deeply humanistic in my view point, and believe that no person or group is inherently better or worse than any other. it upsets me to no end.

I can understand that, but this really doesn't hit me that way. Possibly because I grew up around Russian war vets, and if you think the mythologizing of the Americans of the Greatest Generation is bad...

When I was ten years old, I knew four different old geezers who had singlehandedly won the Battle of Stalingrad. ;)

376 [deleted]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:18:41pm
377 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:19:10pm

re: #364 windsagio

"GREATEST" doesn't mean "BETTER THAN THOSE DAMN LOSERS AROUND DURING VIETNAM".

Altho, thank you. You EXACTLY proved my point at 317.

Its tied to angst and hate re: the upheavals of the 60s and 70s.

No. It is not. No, I did not prove your point.

378 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:19:46pm

re: #359 WindUpBird

Yes, Vietnam was a totally worthy thing and we should have kept fighting there as long as it took, right?

it was a worthy fight...the donks fucked it up so bad it was irretrievable in the end and even then they stiffed the RSVN....despicable fucking democrats again

379 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:19:51pm

The "Greatest Generation" is a term crafted by Tom Brokaw of which eventually became a book of stories about the men and women that grew up during the hard time of the depression and later went off to fight in WWII. It covers many topics including the relationships involved and the home front in over 2 dozen stories. I highly recommend the book.

380 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:20:00pm

re: #363 iceweasel


The can you give me the time stamp in the interview when Yoo mentions Zubayda? Maybe I missed it. The article you linked to, and continue to defend, claims he named Zubayda as Al Qaeda's #3 in command who deserved to be tortured. Just give the the timestamp that Yoo makes the claim about Zubayda and I'll admit your article was correct.

381 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:20:00pm

re: #369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fighty McNasty's here tonight?

No shit. Jeeze people, American Idol is on! The funniest shit on TV for the next few weeks. Then it gets really lame.

382 The Shadow Do  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:20:05pm

I find it informative that claims of torture come exclusively from terrorists, their legal defenders, and the left. None of it corroborated but nonetheless presented as fact.

When KSM shows up in court missing three fingers I may give it credence.

383 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:20:06pm

re: #374 SanFranciscoZionist

I can understand that, but this really doesn't hit me that way. Possibly because I grew up around Russian war vets, and if you think the mythologizing of the Americans of the Greatest Generation is bad...

When I was ten years old, I knew four different old geezers who had singlehandedly won the Battle of Stalingrad. ;)

FOR GLORIOUS MOTHERLAAAND!

384 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:20:13pm

Well, th-th-th-th-that's all for me tonight, unless my insomnia comes back. Here's Sgt Pepper Reprise for my outro. 'Night all.

Youtube Video
385 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:00pm

re: #367 iceweasel

About the rest of the article, that is, KT. I take the earlier point.

Ah, ok. I generally don't read past the first lie, it's a rule of mine and it saves me a lot of time.

386 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:03pm

re: #384 The Sanity Inspector

(getting ready to go out)

+ for rockband video :)

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:08pm

re: #356 Ojoe

Gas and tires and shoes and sugar and plenty of other stuff was rationed.

You couldn't request songs on the radio (to stop pre arranged codes)

Letters from your kid in the service were censored.

We lost 400,000.

It was all in.

I once got to spend a lovely afternoon with members of the Mt. Holyoke College Class of 1946. They were having a reunion. The signs read "No Guys, No Gas. We Stayed On Campus."

388 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:24pm

re: #375 Racer X

For some reason I'm hungry. And the nearest Carl's Jr. is probably thousands of miles away.

389 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:27pm

re: #372 Floral Giraffe

[Video]

there they are!...

390 srb1976  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:21:34pm

Evening folks! Settling in for what looks like a long night.....trying to keep up in between shooing children back to bed....

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:22:15pm

re: #357 WindUpBird

I will say, there have not been many successful video games set in Vietnam. Perhaps because it's hard to abstract jungle fighting, and much easier to abstract major battles in WWII.

Also, I don't think we want to think about it much.

392 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:22:34pm

BTW, some folks did designate Zubaida an Al Quaeda number 3.

They were wrong.

393 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:23:34pm

Hey Night Lizards!

I guve up, who is John Yoo?

And, how are you?

394 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:24:12pm

re: #336 windsagio

hah thats what we came to before. You just think its a bad thing :p

Exactly, and I accept those who believe the opposite, I just want the deception exposed.

395 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:24:40pm

re: #380 Killgore Trout

The can you give me the time stamp in the interview when Yoo mentions Zubayda? Maybe I missed it. The article you linked to, and continue to defend, claims he named Zubayda as Al Qaeda's #3 in command who deserved to be tortured. Just give the the timestamp that Yoo makes the claim about Zubayda and I'll admit your article was correct.

I just linked a WaPo article upthread for you.
Really, do check out the rest of the article. You don't even have to admit that it's correct, or agree with it.

396 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:24:43pm

re: #393 ggt

Hey Night Lizards!

I guve up, who is John Yoo?

And, how are you?

I think he's an action movie director originally from Hong Kong. :)

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:25:23pm

re: #362 The Sanity Inspector

Share it; or direct me to it if you already did.

I don't have your sense that somehow conservatives felt or understood 9/11 in a different way from liberals. And I am saddened at the idea that somehow, part of America is supposed to have reacted to an enormous nation trauma in a better, morally superior way.

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:26:16pm

re: #366 Racer X

They're already on it.

Good.

399 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:26:57pm

re: #396 Mad Al-Jaffee

I think he's an action movie director originally from Hong Kong. :)

your thinking of Juan Loo, the ceramics giant down in Guadalajara

400 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:27:21pm

re: #385 Killgore Trout

Ah, ok. I generally don't read past the first lie, it's a rule of mine and it saves me a lot of time.

Yeah, I don't blame you. It does tend to be a useful rule. IMO, in this case it's worth checking out. And it isn't clear that it's a 'lie' so much as badly worded: Yoo did not, in this interview with stewart, maintain that Zubaida was an Al Quaeda #3. Lots of people did. I'll see if I can find a Yoo statement on it.

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:28:17pm

re: #392 iceweasel

BTW, some folks did designate Zubaida an Al Quaeda number 3.

They were wrong.

Being al-Qaeda's number 3 really seems to be the kiss of death.

402 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:29:44pm

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Double Tenth Incident?
There was much more than mere waterboarding going on. Also worth noting that about 20% of the victims died from the various forms of torture used and many, if not most, were innocent. Hardly analogous to what happened at Gitmo but if you believe that Bush and the US military are evil monsters then you're entitled to your opinion.

Exactly.

Context, application and results are important considerations. When a surgeon cut one's abdomen it is surgery, when a sadist cuts you it is mayhem.

403 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:30:06pm

question...

why do people get so pissy when faced with disagreement?

yes or no

404 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:30:21pm

re: #339 windsagio

...no person or group is inherently better or worse than any other...


no Better generation? I agree.
more interesting? HA!
The Roaring 20's and their flapper party girls have us all beat. THAT is the greatest* generation. They made more slang. They created at least as many euphamisms for whoopie/parking/nookey and hootch as today's sexting teenagers.

Bonus points for being the grandchildren of the Civil War veterans, so I heard stories from people who heard stories from people who were THERE for the War Between The States.

*and by greatest I mean most fun for some distant future generation to read about, and make movies about.

405 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #389 albusteve

Hope you are well, my friend?
Saw an excellent car today, made me think of you.
Will go look for a picture...

406 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:32:01pm

re: #404 keloyd

no Better generation? I agree.
more interesting? HA!
The Roaring 20's and their flapper party girls have us all beat. THAT is the greatest* generation. They made more slang. They created at least as many euphamisms for whoopie/parking/nookey and hootch as today's sexting teenagers.

Bonus points for being the grandchildren of the Civil War veterans, so I heard stories from people who heard stories from people who were THERE for the War Between The States.

*and by greatest I mean most fun for some distant future generation to read about, and make movies about.

the Stones are certainly 'Greater' than Alice in Chains

407 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:33:00pm

re: #406 albusteve

the Stones are certainly 'Greater' than Alice in Chains

Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson are certainly greater than the Stones.

408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:33:19pm

re: #217 MandyManners

Dark_Falcon, iceweasel, Jimmah, psyence, SanFranciscoZionist, Stanley Sea, Vambo, windsagio, wlewisiii

Down-dings?

Seriously?

409 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:33:41pm

re: #405 Floral Giraffe

Hope you are well, my friend?
Saw an excellent car today, made me think of you.
Will go look for a picture...

I had one of the best days in 5 long months...lots of exercise, almost no pain, beautiful day...life is good!....and thanks

410 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:34:49pm

re: #187 goddamnedfrank

.

183 times in one month. Three times a day, every day, for a month. I am at a complete loss as to how that gets justified.

One can call term waterboarding a mild form of torture or not, both are reasonable positions. But considering what we all watched, people jumping to their deaths from the burning towers, and knowing that we captured the evil mastermind behind this, how can you be at a loss for the rational behind using (whatever) to acquire the information to stop additional attacks?

We can disagree if it was correct or not, or permissible or not, but surely the rational and motivation behind it is obvious and compelling.

411 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:34:50pm

re: #407 Mad Al-Jaffee

Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson are certainly greater than the Stones.

So who is the better singer?

Britney Spears

Mary J Blige

/

412 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:34:56pm

re: #395 iceweasel

Really, do check out the rest of the article. You don't even have to admit that it's correct, or agree with it.


Nah, I'm not going to waste my time fact checking something with such obvious and easily debunked lies. It's just not worth the time, it's obvious that the author is more interested in advancing an agenda rather that discovering the truth.

413 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:35:03pm

re: #408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Down-dings?

Seriously?

Yup. Read the beginning of the thread and you'll see why.

414 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:35:12pm

re: #406 albusteve

but Cab Calloway's lyrics had more sex and drugs double entendres than both put together. Then he sang backup for Betty Boop, where they would intentionally have one cel of the cartoon show her naughty bits, then you would leave the talkies wondering 'did I see what I thought I saw?'

415 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:35:45pm

Call out the ut-oh squad ....Health care bill in trouble - One of my local pols thinks so at least.

[Link: news.firedoglake.com...]

416 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:35:47pm

re: #403 albusteve

question...

why do people get so pissy when faced with disagreement?

yes or no

People get angry when their beliefs are threatened.

417 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:35:59pm

re: #407 Mad Al-Jaffee

Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson are certainly greater than the Stones.

LIAR!

actually some said earlier that R Johnson was a genius...I disagreed but didn't take it up...the first time K Richards met his idol, M Waters....Muddy was painting the ceiling at Chess Records for change

418 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:03pm

re: #403 albusteve

why do people get so pissy when faced with disagreement?


Because you're a douchebag!
/Just kidding
;)

419 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:08pm

re: #411 rwmofo

So who is the better singer?

Britney Spears

Mary J Blige

/

I've never heard Mary J Blige so I can't answer that.

420 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:21pm

re: #359 WindUpBird

Yes, Vietnam was a totally worthy thing and we should have kept fighting there as long as it took, right?

What part of "the benefit of the doubt" do you not understand?

421 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:31pm

re: #409 albusteve

That's good to hear!
I saw one of these, don't know the year, late 60's is my guess, it was yellow with the black stripes (tire tread marks, I think of them as!)
[Link: vehicle4change.wordpress.com...]

422 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:44pm

re: #408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Down-dings?

Seriously?

it's a stupid game....neener neener

423 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:36:44pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Too Goddamn True.

Maybe Israel should invade Haiti, just to help out?

Chabad is already there! (No Chabad House in Haiti, but the shliach in the Dominican Republic is on it)

424 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:37:04pm

Okay. LGF first caught my browsing attention in the Lebanon summer war. So I do not really go back to the old school Lizards of 9/11. Or '04. As a commenter I'm in for about 5 months. But I happen to find this topic to be a top 5 for serious implications here at LGF. I might argue for top 3. Exactly how far our President 1-did 2-should 3-possibly could go in the direct attempt to protect us (even if misguided as Yoo pointed out) is critical. Multiple century critical!
Scaling this very real issue against the small time short term political/partisan bickering that evaporates each election season is also critical to honest perspective. Critical to Obama as the fight continues.

425 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:37:08pm

re: #414 keloyd

Listen to Shave Em Dry by Lucille Bogan. Recorded (I'm pretty sure) in the 30s and one of the dirtiest songs ever.

426 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:37:47pm

re: #411 rwmofo

So who is the better singer?

Britney Spears

Mary J Blige

/

No need for hatin' and hollerin'.

Youtube Video
427 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:38:29pm

re: #403 albusteve

question...

why do people get so pissy when faced with disagreement?

yes or no

Too much coffee.

428 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:39:07pm

re: #378 albusteve

it was a worthy fight...the donks fucked it up so bad it was irretrievable in the end and even then they stiffed the RSVN...despicable fucking democrats again

The inconvenient truth.

429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:39:09pm

re: #413 iceweasel

Nope.

430 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:39:10pm

re: #427 Spare O'Lake

Or alcohol.

431 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:39:30pm

re: #408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Down-dings?

Seriously?

Yes. I haven't done it before, but there's been a pattern of Mandy posting patriotic song videos whenever a partisan discussion gets heated up around here. If I misinterpret, I apologize, but it feels to me as though the liberals are being rebuked with emotional patriotism, the implication being that if we also loved the USA we wouldn't be saying XY or Z.

Perhaps I misunderstand the intent, in which case I will not only apologize, but also bite Mandy's shiny metal ass. But I try very hard to be respectful of opposing viewpoints, though I may not always succeed, and it's irritating to be countered with "God Bless The USA". Also, Berlin's "God Bless America" is a much better song.

432 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:39:35pm

re: #418 Killgore Trout

Because you're a douchebag!
/Just kidding
;)

heh...oh man...hey!...I'm working out a new technique to grow Beef-O-Roni indoors, year round dude!...I'll keep you posted

433 simoom  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:40:11pm

Did anyone catch the BBC America segment on the ex-Guantanamo guard flying to the UK to apologize to two ex-detainees (after finding one of them on Facebook)?

Their interaction is pretty interesting but the most compelling part to me is about halfway through, when the ex-soldier recounts a Guantanamo story that bothers him. He doesn't recount any sort of criminal behavior, but instead a misunderstanding that perhaps gives some insight into the state of mind of detainees. Especially watch the reaction of one of the ex-detainees who is speechless for a time:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The relevance to the torture discussion is that it seems to me only natural that someone being subjected to EITs that are supposed to break down sense of self (lack of sleep, blaring music, extremes of temperature, shackled in stress positions, etc), being detained in some sort of extra-legal limbo, could find themselves in constant fear for their lives (moment-to-moment fear of unpredictable summary execution).

434 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:40:28pm

re: #417 albusteve

LIAR!

actually some said earlier that R Johnson was a genius...I disagreed but didn't take it up...the first time K Richards met his idol, M Waters...Muddy was painting the ceiling at Chess Records for change

I think that story might be a blues urban legend. I'm pretty sure I've read some debunkings of it. I'm getting ready for bed, so I can't post any links right now.

435 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:40:57pm

re: #410 Bagua

One can call term waterboarding a mild form of torture or not, both are reasonable positions. But considering what we all watched, people jumping to their deaths from the burning towers, and knowing that we captured the evil mastermind behind this, how can you be at a loss for the rational behind using (whatever) to acquire the information to stop additional attacks?

We can disagree if it was correct or not, or permissible or not, but surely the rational and motivation behind it is obvious and compelling.

"Our enemies are evil as hell," is clearly both obvious and compelling. In my case it does not add up to 'torture of prisoners by U.S. personnel is nothing to worry about'.

436 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:41:17pm

re: #425 Mad Al-Jaffee

Listen to Shave Em Dry by Lucille Bogan. Recorded (I'm pretty sure) in the 30s and one of the dirtiest songs ever.

oooh if that's the one I'm thinking of, I heard it a few years ago, on CD. It would make Howard Stern curl up in a little fetal ball and cry.

Part of the fun of history is deciphering the truth from the whitewashed, cleaned up version you hear much much later.

437 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:41:20pm

re: #421 Floral Giraffe

That's good to hear!
I saw one of these, don't know the year, late 60's is my guess, it was yellow with the black stripes (tire tread marks, I think of them as!)
[Link: vehicle4change.wordpress.com...]

an old Firebird, with a custom hood...great old car...if you like that stuff, you have good taste

438 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:42:17pm

re: #426 laZardo

No need for hatin' and hollerin'.


[Video]

Mary J just...cheers me up.

439 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:42:41pm

re: #436 keloyd

oooh if that's the one I'm thinking of, I heard it a few years ago, on CD. It would make Howard Stern curl up in a little fetal ball and cry.

Part of the fun of history is deciphering the truth from the whitewashed, cleaned up version you hear much much later.

Another great one is Jellt Roll Morton's Library of Congress recording of Whinin' Boy Blues. I have a compilation of dirty blues recordings that has both.

440 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:42:44pm

Legally speaking I suspect the Bush administration and Yoo did their homework and made a good case for the use of waterboarding in selected cases. If the supreme court rules against them I'll concede Bush was wrong.
Morally/ethically speaking I don't lose any sleep over the fact that KSM was waterboarded. As I recall he tolerated quite a few sessions. Good for him. He's still walking around just fine. Hitchens was waterboarded too and he still seems nice. Here's part 2 of his interview with Totten. Highly recommended reading. Dj's get waterboarded as publicity stunts and still show up to work the next day. Lefties used to do regular waterboarding as street theater amidst the giant puppets and drum circles.
Doesn't bother me much.

441 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:42:54pm

re: #428 Bagua

The inconvenient truth.

yup...I was there to see it all go down...the worst clusterfuck imaginable

442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:43:13pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not like "revenge dings". Particular post, particular ding.

I'm sure I have failed in that regard, but try not to.

Just me? Maybe.

There is a reason why multiple dings are not available. So people use them for the next month or so to make a point.

Free Country and all...

500,000 or so people are dead, and we're bickering. But, let's not let that stop it.

I'm a self-righteous prick. Sorry.

443 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:44:10pm

re: #432 albusteve

heh...oh man...hey!...I'm working out a new technique to grow Beef-O-Roni indoors, year round dude!...I'll keep you posted

Better be free range and organic or there's gonna be fisticuffs!

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:44:10pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

Legally speaking I suspect the Bush administration and Yoo did their homework and made a good case for the use of waterboarding in selected cases. If the supreme court rules against them I'll concede Bush was wrong.
Morally/ethically speaking I don't lose any sleep over the fact that KSM was waterboarded. As I recall he tolerated quite a few sessions. Good for him. He's still walking around just fine. Hitchens was waterboarded too and he still seems nice. Here's part 2 of his interview with Totten. Highly recommended reading. Dj's get waterboarded as publicity stunts and still show up to work the next day. Lefties used to do regular waterboarding as street theater amidst the giant puppets and drum circles.
Doesn't bother me much.

Zombie's coverage of one event showed protesters dunking each other's heads in the fountain at Yerba Buena gardens. Not exactly the same thing. Also, I expect there's fungus or something in that water.

445 srb1976  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:44:31pm

re: #427 Spare O'Lake

Too much coffee.

Or not nearly enough!

446 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:44:55pm

re: #375 Racer X

Kim Kardashian Director's Cut Online Only - TV-MA - Grilled Chicken Salad at Carl's Jr.


[Video]

It's high noon on my sundial! Thanks.

447 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:44:55pm

re: #434 Mad Al-Jaffee

I think that story might be a blues urban legend. I'm pretty sure I've read some debunkings of it. I'm getting ready for bed, so I can't post any links right now.

c'mon man...it happened that way because I want it to

448 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:01pm

re: #442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See my #329.

And good night all.

449 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:04pm

re: #437 albusteve

an old Firebird, with a custom hood...great old car...if you like that stuff, you have good taste

As well as long way to go, and a short time to get there. o/~

450 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:08pm

re: #417 albusteve

...the first time K Richards met his idol, M Waters...Muddy was painting the ceiling at Chess Records for change

Saw a great print in a pawn shop once; Older black man sitting on a stoop, playing a guitar... Caption read...


"If it ain't been in a pawn shop, it can't play the blues."
451 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:16pm

re: #442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do not like "revenge dings". Particular post, particular ding.

I'm sure I have failed in that regard, but try not to.

Just me? Maybe.

There is a reason why multiple dings are not available. So people use them for the next month or so to make a point.

Free Country and all...

500,000 or so people are dead, and we're bickering. But, let's not let that stop it.

I'm a self-righteous prick. Sorry.

I'm not thinking in terms of revenge, simply expressing my disapproval of a debating tactic that bothers me.

452 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:30pm

Is it just me, or has the vibe on LGF been really weird the past few days?

453 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:31pm

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Nah, I'm not going to waste my time fact checking something with such obvious and easily debunked lies. It's just not worth the time, it's obvious that the author is more interested in advancing an agenda rather that discovering the truth.

That's too bad.
BTW, Yoo mentions Zubaida, though not by name but only as "the number 3 guy in Al-Q" at about 5:05 in the first video.

And as mentioned, Zubaida was not only not the number 3 guy in A-Q, he gave us all the info he had before we tortured him.

454 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:46pm

re: #437 albusteve

I'm trying to walk at least an hour every day for exercize, and it's fun to look at the vintage cars on the roads around here. I'm not a Pontiac fan, but it's cool to see an almost 50 year old car, in good shape, driving around! This one was in nice shape 90/100.

455 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:48pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, the Mancow (radio DJ) waterboarding was probably also bogus.

456 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:45:58pm

re: #435 SanFranciscoZionist

"Our enemies are evil as hell," is clearly both obvious and compelling. In my case it does not add up to 'torture of prisoners by U.S. personnel is nothing to worry about'.

Do you honestly believe my position is it's nothing to worry about? I've made it clear in every thread where we discussed this that I consider extreme measures appropriate only in exceptional cases when dealing with terrorists who pose a grave danger.

Please be fair. I am talking about terrorists who bomb aircraft and destroy building full of civilians.

457 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:04pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. I haven't done it before, but there's been a pattern of Mandy posting patriotic song videos whenever a partisan discussion gets heated up around here. If I misinterpret, I apologize, but it feels to me as though the liberals are being rebuked with emotional patriotism, the implication being that if we also loved the USA we wouldn't be saying XY or Z.

Not only that, but it's been getting done with increasing frequency, sometimes repeatedly in the same thread.

Reminds me of those videos of teabagger types disrupting town hall health care meetings by standing up and praying loudly or singing the national anthem.

458 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:11pm

re: #449 laZardo

As well as long way to go, and a short time to get there. o/~

Let me guess... you're gonna do what they say can't be done? :)

459 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:14pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

Just my opinion-My 424 is intended to get back to topic, err-off the partisan rancor. Harsh assumptions about motives are in the way of honest discussion about how hard a nation can push in war. In dark interrogation rooms as per tonight's discussion or strategic as in Dresden (very controversial firebombing) vs. the controversies of predator launched missiles at particular homes in Pakistan. To me that is the topic at hand. Not GWB, not waterboarding. More about how we choose to fight.

460 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:33pm

re: #451 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not thinking in terms of revenge, simply expressing my disapproval of a debating tactic that bothers me.

Exactly. And it's the pattern of that tactic that bothers me.

461 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:36pm

re: #447 albusteve

c'mon man...it happened that way because I want it to

The late local bluesman Archie Edwards used to say about questionable stories "If it ain't true, it ought to be!"

462 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:46:56pm

re: #452 Racer X

Is it just me, or has the vibe on LGF been really weird the past few days?

It's not just you. I think the new population is past the honeymoon phase, and as we get fewer trolls to ceremonially kill and eat together we are beginning to turn on one another.

Or, Mercury is in retrograde again. Whatever.

463 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:47:05pm

re: #443 Killgore Trout

Better be free range and organic or there's gonna be fisticuffs!

I know I know...this is like seed stock...gotta work out a few kinks tho

464 jaunte  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:47:12pm

Don't click on the videos you don't want to watch, and the debating tactic is null.

465 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:47:35pm

re: #455 Killgore Trout

Yeah, the Mancow (radio DJ) waterboarding was probably also bogus.

What I had heard was that they got someone in who had no training in the technique.

466 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:47:36pm

re: #452 Racer X

Is it just me, or has the vibe on LGF been really weird the past few days?

Weird. I rarely debate generational wars.

467 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:47:44pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Being al-Qaeda's number 3 really seems to be the kiss of death.

Because Bin LAden and Al-Zawahiri used that position as a cut-out. The lines of communication we can roll up all lead to the number 3 man. Access to the top 2 is much more restricted, to protect them (though Bin Laden is probably dead by now).

468 rwmofo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:48:06pm

re: #440 Killgore Trout

Legally speaking I suspect the Bush administration and Yoo did their homework and made a good case for the use of waterboarding in selected cases. If the supreme court rules against them I'll concede Bush was wrong.
Morally/ethically speaking I don't lose any sleep over the fact that KSM was waterboarded. As I recall he tolerated quite a few sessions. Good for him. He's still walking around just fine. Hitchens was waterboarded too and he still seems nice. Here's part 2 of his interview with Totten. Highly recommended reading. Dj's get waterboarded as publicity stunts and still show up to work the next day. Lefties used to do regular waterboarding as street theater amidst the giant puppets and drum circles.
Doesn't bother me much.

Agreed. Switch parties and I see it the same way. When it comes to protecting us it doesn't matter if there's a Democrat or Republican administration. Just do the right thing.

469 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:48:16pm

re: #466 wee fury

Weird. I rarely debate generational wars.

The NES is greater than the XBox by far.

/ q:

470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:48:26pm

re: #329 Mad Al-Jaffee

heh.

471 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:48:44pm

re: #441 albusteve

yup...I was there to see it all go down...the worst clusterfuck imaginable

Respect for that!

It is miserable to see history reinterpretation to suit a partisan agenda. What happened happened.

472 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:48:58pm

re: #450 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

great...I'd frame it...I love stuff like that

473 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:49:20pm

re: #469 laZardo

;-)

474 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:49:27pm

re: #456 Bagua

Do you honestly believe my position is it's nothing to worry about? I've made it clear in every thread where we discussed this that I consider extreme measures appropriate only in exceptional cases when dealing with terrorists who pose a grave danger.

Please be fair. I am talking about terrorists who bomb aircraft and destroy building full of civilians.

I'm aware of that, and I would not say that my feelings on the matter are entirely settled. I am not trusting of those who make such decisions, especially when they will be carried out out of my sight and awareness.

475 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:49:32pm

re: #453 iceweasel

That's too bad.
BTW, Yoo mentions Zubaida, though not by name but only as "the number 3 guy in Al-Q" at about 5:05 in the first video.

And as mentioned, Zubaida was not only not the number 3 guy in A-Q, he gave us all the info he had before we tortured him.

What, KT, now you'll downding for providing what you asked for?

You wanted the timestamp, you got it.

476 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:49:49pm

re: #462 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not just you. I think the new population is past the honeymoon phase, and as we get fewer trolls to ceremonially kill and eat together we are beginning to turn on one another.

Or, Mercury is in retrograde again. Whatever.

Agreed.

Some people just need to put their big boy (girl) pants on and learn to ignore stuff. It works really well for me, otherwise I would be doing nothing but picking fights all day. Life is too short for that.

477 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:00pm

re: #462 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not just you. I think the new population is past the honeymoon phase, and as we get fewer trolls to ceremonially kill and eat together we are beginning to turn on one another.

Or, Mercury is in retrograde again. Whatever.

You've got a point there. Sorry I wasn't here for a while. I needed to finish a miniature I was painting for my game of Saturday and then Firefox went sideways on me.

478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:26pm

re: #451 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not thinking in terms of revenge, simply expressing my disapproval of a debating tactic that bothers me.

Who died and made me LGF monitor anyway.

Love you guys. Especially me.

479 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:34pm

re: #450 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

As I recall the story, when Lightnin' Hopkins was first recorded, they had to go down to the pawn shop to get his guitar.

480 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:37pm

re: #449 laZardo

As well as long way to go, and a short time to get there. o/~

there were a few (not many) Firebirds of note...they just could not compete with the Camaro, a legend

481 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:51pm

re: #466 wee fury

Weird. I rarely debate generational wars.

No shit!

I watched that unfold upthread, and the whole time I'm thinking 'who cares'?

482 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:50:56pm

re: #452 Racer X

Is it just me, or has the vibe on LGF been really weird the past few days?

We had to adjust the Frequency Modulation Capacitors to effectively block the large dose of Beckmania. While they were doing that, someone turned on the dryer.

A fusebox blew with a stupendous BANG!, all the hamsters tumbled off the wheels, and the fire alarm went off. Stinky nearly wet his britches.

483 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:51:08pm

Oh, small good news, I did some arithmetic and proved, at least to myself, the 500k number is probably too high. Here's my logic,

The highest death toll ever from an earthquake was Shinsi, China, 16th C., where ~800k died. Contemporary accounts claimed about 3/10 of the population died.

The strength of the quake and building standards are likely similar to modern Haiti, according to some guesses on the internet, linked in another thread.

3/10 of the ~1.7 million pop of Port au Prince is ~500k. HOWEVER, we have modern medicine, armies of food, tents, water purification, etc. on the way. These factors will force that high estimate down.

484 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:52:15pm

re: #453 iceweasel

That's too bad.
BTW, Yoo mentions Zubaida, though not by name but only as "the number 3 guy in Al-Q" at about 5:05 in the first video.

And as mentioned, Zubaida was not only not the number 3 guy in A-Q, he gave us all the info he had before we tortured him.


He does not mention Zubaida. That's a fact. To claim that he's talking about someone whose name he does not mention is a strawman. He does mention Al Qaeda's #3 but to attribute that as implying Zubaida, Ron Paul or Donnie Dumphy is a strawman. He's talking about Al Qaeda #3 and there no evidence that he's implicating anyone by name.
By sticking to this easily debunked talking point proves that you and the author of the article are more interested in advancing an agenda rather than honest debate. You aren't going to win with strawman arguments. It might make nice talking point to the converted but people who can fact check are just going to ignore it.

485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:52:44pm

re: #483 keloyd

From your keyboard to God's ears, my friend.

I, personally, think it will be higher.

I pray I am wrong.

486 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:52:47pm

re: #454 Floral Giraffe

I'm trying to walk at least an hour every day for exercize, and it's fun to look at the vintage cars on the roads around here. I'm not a Pontiac fan, but it's cool to see an almost 50 year old car, in good shape, driving around! This one was in nice shape 90/100.

oh man tell me about it...Albuquerque is old car heaven, especially muscle cars and street rods...I go nuts down here

487 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:52:55pm

re: #483 keloyd

Oh, small good news, I did some arithmetic and proved, at least to myself, the 500k number is probably too high. Here's my logic,

The highest death toll ever from an earthquake was Shinsi, China, 16th C., where ~800k died. Contemporary accounts claimed about 3/10 of the population died.

The strength of the quake and building standards are likely similar to modern Haiti, according to some guesses on the internet, linked in another thread.

3/10 of the ~1.7 million pop of Port au Prince is ~500k. HOWEVER, we have modern medicine, armies of food, tents, water purification, etc. on the way. These factors will force that high estimate down.

CNN is now saying 100k & that is still a whole lot.

488 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:53:06pm

re: #481 Racer X

No shit!

I watched that unfold upthread, and the whole time I'm thinking 'who cares'?

It 'twas . . . it 'twas . . . an over-ripe banana.

489 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:53:40pm

re: #477 Dark_Falcon

You've got a point there. Sorry I wasn't here for a while. I needed to finish a miniature I was painting for my game of Saturday and then Firefox went sideways on me.

What game?

490 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:53:50pm

re: #404 keloyd

I've actually had a kick for the '70s lately. Most wrongly maligned decade of the century.

Style was free and cool, politics was active and crazy, it was the birth (or mainstreaming) of a large number of great musical styles.... All in all, a great time. People weren't afraid to express themselves.

491 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:54:17pm

re: #475 iceweasel

See 484. you're still pushing a dishonest talking point...thus the downding. It's simply not true. He never mentions Zubaida. That's a fact.

492 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:54:19pm

re: #475 iceweasel

What, KT, now you'll downding for providing what you asked for?

You wanted the timestamp, you got it.

I think he's referencing KSM, why do you think he's talking Zubaida?

493 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:54:24pm

Oh come on, all you bleeding heart liberal socialistic commies make me sick.

Everyone knows that it can't really be torture as long as you 'mean well', isn't it one of the greatest dictates of free market capitalism that "the end justifies the means"?

/and so we become that which we hate...

494 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:54:34pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

He does not mention Zubaida. That's a fact. To claim that he's talking about someone whose name he does not mention is a strawman. He does mention Al Qaeda's #3 but to attribute that as implying Zubaida, Ron Paul or Donnie Dumphy is a strawman. He's talking about Al Qaeda #3 and there no evidence that he's implicating anyone by name.
By sticking to this easily debunked talking point proves that you and the author of the article are more interested in advancing an agenda rather than honest debate. You aren't going to win with strawman arguments. It might make nice talking point to the converted but people who can fact check are just going to ignore it.

Damn, Killgore! You've got some steel in your spine tonight! I'm lovin' it.

495 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:55:15pm

re: #476 Racer X

Agreed.

Some people just need to put their big boy (girl) pants on and learn to ignore stuff. It works really well for me, otherwise I would be doing nothing but picking fights all day. Life is too short for that.

agreed...it's more important to me to be friendly and congenial than to always be right...being right takes it's toll

496 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:55:24pm

re: #476 Racer X

Agreed.

Some people just need to put their big boy (girl) pants on and learn to ignore stuff. It works really well for me, otherwise I would be doing nothing but picking fights all day. Life is too short for that.

Your way is worthy of consideration and emulation, I've never seen you get baiting into a hostile exchange. I find that impressive.

Another poster who is remarkably civil and balanced is Freetoken. He gets his position across without needing to do battle.

497 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:55:38pm

re: #494 Dark_Falcon

Heh, it's still fun to throw down like we used to on LGF.

498 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:55:40pm

re: #485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OH, and the thing didn't happen when they were asleep in bed like in China. It was 4:50 when some people were commuting, so more downward adjustment, God willing.

499 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:55:50pm

re: #489 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What game?

Battletech. It's a game that uses metal miniatures, and I sometimes I paint them up for games.

500 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:56:35pm

re: #498 keloyd

Those early high numbers are usually wrong. I hope so.

501 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:56:53pm

re: #493 ausador

Oh come on, all you bleeding heart liberal socialistic commies make me sick.

Everyone knows that it can't really be torture as long as you 'mean well', isn't it one of the greatest dictates of free market capitalism that "the end justifies the means"?

/and so we become that which we hate...

Sorry, but Bullshit.

We did not become monsters like KSM.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:57:20pm

re: #478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who died and made me LGF monitor anyway.

Love you guys. Especially me.

No, it's a fair question. I just got pissed off, and downdinged. It happens once in a while. You probably didn't need a detailed rationale.

503 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:57:47pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

He does not mention Zubaida. That's a fact. To claim that he's talking about someone whose name he does not mention is a strawman. He does mention Al Qaeda's #3 but to attribute that as implying Zubaida, Ron Paul or Donnie Dumphy is a strawman. He's talking about Al Qaeda #3 and there no evidence that he's implicating anyone by name.
By sticking to this easily debunked talking point proves that you and the author of the article are more interested in advancing an agenda rather than honest debate. You aren't going to win with strawman arguments. It might make nice talking point to the converted but people who can fact check are just going to ignore it.

KT, Zubaida was-- incorrectly -- designated #3 in Alquaeda. Serwer's point, when cataloguing Stewart's missed opportunities, was that when Yoo said "say, when you're interrogating the number 3 guy in Al-Q", Stewart should have been all over that, with the information provided here in the WaPo, and elsewhere.

504 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:58:00pm

re: #486 albusteve

oh man tell me about it...Albuquerque is old car heaven, especially muscle cars and street rods...I go nuts down here

You should check out Alameda, California.

505 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:59:08pm

re: #499 Dark_Falcon

Battletech. It's a game that uses metal miniatures, and I sometimes I paint them up for games.

I know it. Haven't played it in like 20 years. I'm sitting here surrounded by about a half dozen Space Marine Tanks, a dreadnaught and a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators for 40K I'm working on

506 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:59:16pm

re: #481 Racer X

its actually fascinating to watch (having gone out, eaten, and come back refreshed) how the discussions develop. like "How did we get from there to here?"

re: #462 SanFranciscoZionist

I was thinking about that too... (altho I feel sometimes like I'm partially responsible :p)

I think its partly because LGF is no longer a monoculture. Most of the new people coming in have substantially different views from the people that have been here a while, and also a substantially different discussion style. Its kind of amazing.

Things that only made one or 2 people upset before (not trying to restart the fight, but its an interesting example: like Mandy's use of Nonsequiter religious or patriotic youtube posts) annoy alot more people now, and its alot easier to argue something like that when you have support.

It is still fun that people can fiercely fight in one thread or discussion and pal around in another. Once that stops happening, its heading for trouble.

507 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:59:31pm

re: #489 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What game?


NFL playoffs...probably putting some blood and a cast on a tiny little Bret Favre

508 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 8:59:46pm

re: #490 windsagio

You have a point. Look at Louis Gossett Jr. spelling stuff on the Electric Company. There was more general grooviness from an unknown actor on a mid-day kids' show than what you see today on any 3 hours of MYV, imho

509 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:00:22pm

Well I'll be damned!

I've been nominated for Best Patient Weblog

510 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:00:36pm

re: #501 Bagua

Sorry, but Bullshit.

We did not become monsters like KSM.

Quite Concur. We didn't torture simply to cause pain like he did, nor do we seek the horrific ends he seeks. Moreover, when our forces committed atrocities, we prosecuted them, whereas Al Qaeda celebrates their atrocities.

511 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:00:43pm

I got a ton of errors on the page and the reply and quote buttons only work if I refresh. WTH?

512 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:00:49pm

re: #500 Rightwingconspirator

Those early high numbers are usually wrong. I hope so.

Agreed, but what I am taking away is that disaster preparedness is not what it should be across the board, we, the whole world, is just not ready if some bad things happen.

513 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:01:08pm

re: #496 Bagua

Your way is worthy of consideration and emulation, I've never seen you get baiting into a hostile exchange. I find that impressive.

Another poster who is remarkably civil and balanced is Freetoken. He gets his position across without needing to do battle.

Thanks!

I have lost my cool, but I try to remember it is all dots on my computer screen.

514 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:01:25pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Being al-Qaeda's number 3 really seems to be the kiss of death.

It's a split position, other duties involve drumming for Spinal Tap.

515 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:02:11pm

re: #501 Bagua

Sorry, but Bullshit.

We did not become monsters like KSM.

Uhh...perhaps you can speak for yourself, but what about the millions actively cheerleading for torture? Have you seen the polls on the subject? We have truly entered a dark place in this countries pysche...

516 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:02:13pm

re: #508 keloyd

Trying to figure out "MYV". I presume you don't mean this MYV

517 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:02:19pm

re: #101 MandyManners

I just dinged you ass down on behalf of the folks who fought in various world wars (WWI, WWII, the Cold War) and other conflicts that don't make the pages of newspapers or history books.

HOW DARE YOU?

Huh? You're reading a lot into what I said that's not even implied. My post was in response to something about demographics; my point was that younger folks actually have a better fake news source than the older audience of Fox and talk radio.

How you turned that into a slam against the greatest generation I have no idea. But since you know little about me, maybe you shouldn't judge so quickly. My parents are BOTH vets of WWII--Dr. and nurse--and I'm well aware that their sacrifice paved the way for what we've got now.

518 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:02:20pm

re: #514 goddamnedfrank

It's a split position, other duties involve drumming for Spinal Tap.

Ummm.... got anything else?

519 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:02:24pm

re: #505 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I know it. Haven't played it in like 20 years. I'm sitting here surrounded by about a half dozen Space Marine Tanks, a dreadnaught and a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators for 40K I'm working on

There's a new box set for the game coming out soon. I'll let you know when it comes out, might be interesting for you. I do pay 40K some attention, since I use Games Workshop paints for my minis.

520 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:03:14pm

re: #513 Racer X

Thanks!

I have lost my cool, but I try to remember it is all dots on my computer screen.

I'm no fucking DOT!

521 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:03:27pm

re: #509 SteveC

Well I'll be damned!

I've been nominated for Best Patient Weblog

Congrats!

522 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:03:38pm

re: #518 SteveC

Ummm... got anything else?


re: #467 Dark_Falcon

Because Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri used that position as a cut-out. The lines of communication we can roll up all lead to the number 3 man. Access to the top 2 is much more restricted, to protect them (though Bin Laden is probably dead by now).

523 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:04:04pm

re: #516 windsagio

Trying to figure out "MYV". I presume you don't mean this MYV

MTV - and here I am with a degree from Texas Alphabetical and Military University!

524 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:04:19pm

re: #519 Dark_Falcon

did battletech ever get rid of the 'unlicensed designs from Japan' 'mechs?

I had alot of fun with the game when I was younger (altho, never had minuatures. I can't paint. Now I play Confrontation which has prepaints >>), but I always remember how shocked I was the first time I saw Robotech.

525 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:04:41pm

re: #515 ausador

Uhh...perhaps you can speak for yourself, but what about the millions actively cheerleading for torture? Have you seen the polls on the subject? We have truly entered a dark place in this countries pysche...

I just spewed Coke all over my computer. Laughing.

526 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:04:43pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. I haven't done it before, but there's been a pattern of Mandy posting patriotic song videos whenever a partisan discussion gets heated up around here. If I misinterpret, I apologize, but it feels to me as though the liberals are being rebuked with emotional patriotism, the implication being that if we also loved the USA we wouldn't be saying XY or Z.

Perhaps I misunderstand the intent, in which case I will not only apologize, but also bite Mandy's shiny metal ass. But I try very hard to be respectful of opposing viewpoints, though I may not always succeed, and it's irritating to be countered with "God Bless The USA". Also, Berlin's "God Bless America" is a much better song.

You are being very unfair.
Assuming that you believe in the concept of nationhood, and in the idea of war as a last resort method of resolving international disputes, then you should allow that patriotism is an important coping mechanism for the individual and an important tool of the state, particularly in time of war. Patriotism, like any belief system, is not free of difficulty...but neither is it necessarily a bad thing or an invalid response to a perceived attack on the national interest.
BTW you are wrong to imply that provocative or rude dem lib arguments which prompt such responses are somehow less emotional than conservative arguments.

527 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:00pm

re: #523 keloyd

haaha does the A in A&M really mean "Alphabetical?"

*Johnny Carson voice* I did not know that!

528 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:06pm

re: #515 ausador

Uhh...perhaps you can speak for yourself, but what about the millions actively cheerleading for torture? Have you seen the polls on the subject? We have truly entered a dark place in this countries pysche...

Ok lets all agree that torture is bad and should never be used, What can we do that is not Torture? Can we yell? Can we scar them? Can we call them names?

529 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:13pm

re: #522 Dark_Falcon
(though Bin Laden is probably dead by now).


Or sitting in a lovely palace in Iran.

530 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:34pm

I know Zubaida is cause celebre with the DU crowd, but nobody serious in the intel community ever considered him "AQ #3". He wasn't even on the famous board of linked pics that congress was shown.

That's like calling Tahir Muldashev "Leader of the Taliban"... it's kinda ridiculous.

531 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:47pm

re: #519 Dark_Falcon

There's a new box set for the game coming out soon. I'll let you know when it comes out, might be interesting for you. I do pay 40K some attention, since I use Games Workshop paints for my minis.

My wife would kill me if I started on another army right now, let alone another game. I got 3 marine armies (Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Night Lords), Cadian Imperial Guard and assorted Inquistion, plus then I got the kids armies of Orks and Necrons. I'm spread thin right now, lol

532 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:47pm

re: #506 windsagio


It is still fun that people can fiercely fight in one thread or discussion and pal around in another. Once that stops happening, its heading for trouble.

Yup. Big fan of that.
Also, the culture of the board changed dramatically starting this summer. Lots of folks got banned or left. Not surprising that it takes getting used to.

533 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:52pm

re: #503 iceweasel

KT, Zubaida was-- incorrectly -- designated #3 in Alquaeda.


Not by Yoo in that interview. He never made that claim even if you insist on attributing that statement to him he never said it. BTW, I didn't read past the first sentence because I ignore everything after the first lie. Never lead with a lie, save them for the end.

534 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:05:57pm

re: #526 Spare O'Lake

think very carefully (yes I'm being a liil' hypocritical) everything is calmed down now, do you really wanna restart that argument?

I mean, I'm game, but...

535 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:06:44pm

re: #521 iceweasel

Congrats!

*bows deeply*

536 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:07:07pm

re: #530 Thanos

I know Zubaida is cause celebre with the DU crowd, but nobody serious in the intel community ever considered him "AQ #3". He wasn't even on the famous board of linked pics that congress was shown.

That's like calling Tahir Muldashev "Leader of the Taliban"... it's kinda ridiculous.


[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

President George W. Bush had publicly described him as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," and other top officials called him a "trusted associate" of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.

537 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:07:33pm

As for the statement of waterboarding Al Qaeda #3, I have no objections. I'd support waterboarding the top 10 at least.

538 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:07:37pm

re: #515 ausador

Uhh...perhaps you can speak for yourself, but what about the millions actively cheerleading for torture? Have you seen the polls on the subject? We have truly entered a dark place in this countries pysche...

Yes, that is another thing all together. But you were responding to my comment and me to yours. Neither of us represents extremists.

Thus I want to debate your points fairly and want the same in return, even with this highly emotive issue.

539 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:07:44pm

re: #531 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My wife would kill me if I started on another army right now, let alone another game. I got 3 marine armies (Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Night Lords), Cadian Imperial Guard and assorted Inquistion, plus then I got the kids armies of Orks and Necrons. I'm spread thin right now, lol

know what you mean....I have every Cabbage Patch guy ever made, hand painted and ready for action

540 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:09:00pm

re: #526 Spare O'Lake

Argh that was deeply uncool of me. I don't want to try to intimidate you into not saying how you feel, It makes me crazy when people do that to me.


I apologize >>

541 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:09:06pm

re: #539 albusteve

know what you mean...I have every Cabbage Patch guy ever made, hand painted and ready for action

You are dead to me.

/

542 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:09:18pm

re: #531 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My wife would kill me if I started on another army right now, let alone another game. I got 3 marine armies (Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Night Lords), Cadian Imperial Guard and assorted Inquistion, plus then I got the kids armies of Orks and Necrons. I'm spread thin right now, lol

You aren't really interested, are ya? :)

My big weaknesses when I was in high school:

Richthofen's War

Wooden Ships and Iron Men

543 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:09:28pm

My great-grandparents fought the Spaniards in the Philippine Revolution.

That's my Greatest Generation.

/and that's all I got to say about that. :x

544 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:09:56pm

re: #537 Killgore Trout

As for the statement of waterboarding Al Qaeda #3, I have no objections. I'd support waterboarding the top 10 at least.

/Interesting, let's turn it into a status symbol...

545 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:10:13pm

re: #543 laZardo

it'd be an interesting thing to talk about tho'. I'm sure most of us know like NOTHING substantive about that war >>

546 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:11:06pm

Haitian Ambassador responds to Pat Robertson

Youtube Video
547 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:11:23pm

re: #504 laZardo

I'm not that far from Alameda, in a city built for returning WW2 veterans.
80% of the housing in my city was built 1954-1957. LOTS of cool cars, street drivers for the most part.

Great airplanes at the local airfield too. 2-3 biplanes, and a couple of Burt Rutan's weirder designs.

548 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:11:33pm

re: #524 windsagio

did battletech ever get rid of the 'unlicensed designs from Japan' 'mechs?

I had alot of fun with the game when I was younger (altho, never had minuatures. I can't paint. Now I play Confrontation which has prepaints >>), but I always remember how shocked I was the first time I saw Robotech.

They had to get rid of some images due to a lawsuit, but some of them have since been allowed to return. I'm actually using configurations of some the Battlemechs whose original images were barred (the Marauder, Rifleman, and Thunderbolt) and one whose original image has since come back, the Battlemaster.

549 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:11:56pm

re: #545 windsagio

it'd be an interesting thing to talk about tho'. I'm sure most of us know like NOTHING substantive about that war >>

I know I don't like it...

550 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:12:06pm

re: #546 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Haitian Ambassador responds to Pat Robertson


[Video]

Pat Robertson is evil.

551 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:12:38pm

re: #549 brookly red

now I"m curious...

Why not?

552 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:12:47pm

re: #544 brookly red

I think you could probably get good life saving information from the top 50 or so but beyond that might get excessive in my book. We are dealing with an organization of serial killers here and I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy for any member of Al Qaeda.

553 wee fury  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:12:49pm

I like this

Youtube Video
554 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:13:22pm

re: #551 windsagio

now I"m curious...

Why not?

/loud noises, can't stand loud noises...

555 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:14:14pm

re: #550 BryanS

Pat Robertson is evil.

I've heard that if you can't find any Salamander Feet for your magic potion, Ear of Pat will work just as well.

556 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:14:58pm

re: #536 iceweasel

so says the washington post so it must be true why don't you link to some hard stuff like these are the techniques they authorized for use;

[Link: www.army.mil...]

Here is the executive order

[Link: en.wikisource.org...]

here is the briefing that put it all together;

[Link: www.defense.gov...]

Dig a little deeper and you will find out more.

557 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:14:59pm

re: #555 SteveC

I've heard that if you can't find any Salamander Feet for your magic potion, Ear of Pat will work just as well.

Eye of Newt?

558 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:15:15pm

re: #532 iceweasel

Yup. Big fan of that.
Also, the culture of the board changed dramatically starting this summer. Lots of folks got banned or left. Not surprising that it takes getting used to.

I enjoy the differences of opinions, it leads to learning and understanding. What I don't appreciate is a couple examples where people simply attack because they oppose the other person. This I find dishonest and a waste of time. It is always possible to seize on this or that word, twist it and turn it into more than it is just for the sake of avarice and to silence the opponent by harrying them mixed in with insults. It's a passive-aggressive form of heckling and bullying.

(No examples on this thread btw)

559 Kragar  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:15:19pm

Well, LGF has apparently gone tits up for me tonight. Buttons not working and half the time I am able to click something, I get kicked back to the front page.

Be seeing you.

560 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:15:21pm

re: #554 brookly red

ok that made me choke, I admit. bad to read here while eating >>

561 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:15:23pm

re: #552 Killgore Trout

I think you could probably get good life saving information from the top 50 or so but beyond that might get excessive in my book. We are dealing with an organization of serial killers here and I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy for any member of Al Qaeda.

well I guess then we would first have to waterboard anyone caught to find out if they are in the top 50, no?

562 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:15:37pm

re: #559 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

dude, sorry... Good luck!

563 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:16:52pm

re: #556 lrsshadow

so says the washington post so it must be true

It's true. You just don't like it.

564 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:16:56pm

re: #550 BryanS

Pat Robertson is evil.

Agreed, it takes a sickness of mind to say what he did at a time like this, regardless of his beliefs.

565 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:17:08pm

re: #552 Killgore Trout

err, 'an organization of serial killers' is a bit iffy. The whole dynamic is different.


We can't be thinking of them that way...

566 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:17:42pm

Beginning on September 11, 2001, 2,973 people were killed as the result of Islamic terrorists.

In the following year and up until this time there have been 4,691 coalition deaths for Operation Iraqi Freedom and 1,587 in AFPAK operations.

According to the AP, 110,600 civilians died in the Iraqi conflict and somewhere in the range of 8,436-28,028* civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

The number of those injured is more than double. I find it difficult to ponder the moral implications of water boarding under these circumstances especially since we are not the belligerents in this ongoing conflict.

*Includes anti-government elements (Taliban, AQ).

567 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:17:53pm

re: #546 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Haitian Ambassador responds to Pat Robertson


[Video]

For once, I have to give my thanks to MSNBC for giving the Ambassador a chance to give Pat Robertson the verbal smackdown he so richly deserved.

568 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:18:31pm

re: #536 iceweasel

"Chief of operations" is a title given by AQ to tons of operatives. Z might have been "Chief of ops" in Peshawar, where he sent trainees to camp Khalden, but he was never AQ number three. There are "Chiefs of operations" and others with similar titles in every theater AQ operates in. Please understand that I used to read intel reports and Pakistani papers nightly. I never heard of the guy until the DU crowd and others started using him as an example of a victim of torture. Perhaps they are correct that he was a victim of torture, but nobody serious ever considered him number three.

569 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:18:42pm

re: #566 Gus 802

maybe I missed it, but in the whole torture thing thats been going on here, has anyone hit on the fact that torture doesn't really give reliable results anyways?

570 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:19:36pm

re: #566 Gus 802

I find it difficult to ponder the moral implications of water boarding under these circumstances especially since we are not the belligerents in this ongoing conflict.

It is difficult. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
(Not saying you're saying that, btw)

571 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:13pm

re: #561 brookly red

well I guess then we would first have to waterboard anyone caught to find out if they are in the top 50, no?

Thereby hangs the shit cleaver. If you had a son in the military, and he was captured in, oh, say, Afghanistan, what would constitute torture to you? How would you like him to be treated? What would you accept as "enhanced interrogation" if the insurgents were interested in force structure, chains of command, and planned actions?

572 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:15pm

re: #566 Gus 802

Beginning on September 11, 2001, 2,973 people were killed as the result of Islamic terrorists.

In the following year and up until this time there have been 4,691 coalition deaths for Operation Iraqi Freedom and 1,587 in AFPAK operations.

According to the AP, 110,600 civilians died in the Iraqi conflict and somewhere in the range of 8,436-28,028* civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

The number of those injured is more than double. I find it difficult to ponder the moral implications of water boarding under these circumstances especially since we are not the belligerents in this ongoing conflict.

*Includes anti-government elements (Taliban, AQ).

as long as there are no loud noises...

573 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:24pm

re: #567 Dark_Falcon

First, Krager wins the internets for posting that ambassador's comments.
Second, notice that it was Maddow who hosted this guy, not Olbermann, not any other prime time commentators. Rachel Maddow is head and shoulders more professional and competent than the other commentators on MSNBC, imho - and this is a contry club Republican saying this, through gritted teeth.

574 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:28pm

re: #559 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, LGF has apparently gone tits up for me tonight. Buttons not working and half the time I am able to click something, I get kicked back to the front page.

Be seeing you.

I'm having the same issues.
IE7 says there's an "error on page".
I'm out.
Do TRY to play nicely?

Later, lizards!

575 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:29pm

re: #552 Killgore Trout

I think you could probably get good life saving information from the top 50 or so but beyond that might get excessive in my book. We are dealing with an organization of serial killers here and I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy for any member of Al Qaeda.

I would just add that, right or wrong, it is an exceptional circumstance applying to a tiny number of people. It is human nature to be fascinated with the things that are actually quite rare and unusual. Yet there are injustices on a massive scale that we just shrug off and ignore, because they are common place and do not appeal to any of our beliefs.

576 SteveC  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:51pm

re: #557 austin_blue

Eye of Newt?

Well, I wasn't going to say that and have someone take it the wrong way... Steve be chillin' tonight.

577 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:20:57pm

re: #563 iceweasel

I just take an opinion from a reporter as just that, there is not one single linked individual who contributed to this article openly who works for the federal government in any interrogation capacity what so ever past or present who was involved with anything the article is written about.

It is all just the hogwash of some reporters sorry. It ain't worth anything more than that.

578 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:21:32pm

re: #569 windsagio

maybe I missed it, but in the whole torture thing thats been going on here, has anyone hit on the fact that torture doesn't really give reliable results anyways?

Don't know.

I usually think about things like why are we creating an alliance with Pakistan when that nation is the creator of the Taliban and an enemy of a more important ally of the USA, India.

579 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:21:45pm

re: #564 Bagua

Agreed, it takes a sickness of mind to say what he did at a time like this, regardless of his beliefs.

Why do tragedies have to be cause for fundies to appeal to polemic rants about repenting? Didn't Fallwell say something stupid around 911 as well? I'm glad not all religious folk do this, but it is a special kind of crazy to say what Robertson said.

580 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:21:50pm

re: #577 lrsshadow

"a source isn't good if it doesn't agree with my opinion"

581 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:21:58pm

Coca-Cola "Happiness Machine"

Youtube Video

I want one.

582 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:22:11pm

re: #571 austin_blue

Thereby hangs the shit cleaver. If you had a son in the military, and he was captured in, oh, say, Afghanistan, what would constitute torture to you? How would you like him to be treated? What would you accept as "enhanced interrogation" if the insurgents were interested in force structure, chains of command, and planned actions?

You know we are not talking about soldiers captured in battle, we are talking about exceptional terrorists. And we already know how the enemy treats our troops, they behead them and use torture that all of us would agree on the definition.

583 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:22:14pm

re: #528 lrsshadow

Ok lets all agree that torture is bad and should never be used, What can we do that is not Torture? Can we yell? Can we scar them? Can we call them names?

How about we just use standard interrogation techniques that have been proven to work and constantly refined for literally hundreds of years?

The acknowledged experts in the Field say that torture is not needed and is in fact counter productive and most often produces bad intelligence. Yet even after expert after expert from within the ranks of the intelligence community has said how useless torture is and how damaging it is to our reputation some people continue to call for it's use.

I wonder why that is? Maybe they just get a stiffy thinking of another human being in pain? Maybe the think of it as just punishment? Maybe they don't realize that most of the people we tortured have since been released without any charges ever being filed against them? They were not "captured on the battlefield" they were sold to us by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan (most under completely bogus claims against them).

Mostly I think it is just more of the Neo-Con "American exceptionilism" mindset that still pervades politics in this country. "It is OK if we do it to their people, but wrong for others to do to our people, cause we are Gods chosen." Or some such frigging bullshit anyway...

584 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:22:33pm

I'll tell you what IW, take this discussion over to Abu Muquwama or Bill Roggio - if you can get either of those guys to say that yeah, someone thought Zubaydah was #3 you will convince me, otherwise not.

585 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:22:54pm

re: #561 brookly red

well I guess then we would first have to waterboard anyone caught to find out if they are in the top 50, no?


Uh, no. We usually have a pretty good idea of who's who. That's why you don't want to stretch too far down the chain of command, thing start to get sketchy.

586 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:23:16pm

re: #571 austin_blue

Thereby hangs the shit cleaver. If you had a son in the military, and he was captured in, oh, say, Afghanistan, what would constitute torture to you? How would you like him to be treated? What would you accept as "enhanced interrogation" if the insurgents were interested in force structure, chains of command, and planned actions?

No dude I am all for it, I just don't think we should turn it into some some kind of freaking popularity contest where only the top 10 get it... war is war & I say play to win.

587 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:23:23pm

re: #578 Gus 802

Alot of our foreign policy is based in these deeply laid webs of tradition, short term opportunism, and lobbying. If we look at it, we go blind. If we think about it, we go mad!

588 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:23:36pm

re: #580 windsagio

Correction "an opinion is just an opinion, when the person who is expressing it has no facts to back up his assertion"

589 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:24:42pm

re: #582 Bagua

You know we are not talking about soldiers captured in battle, we are talking about exceptional terrorists. And we already know how the enemy treats our troops, they behead them and use torture that all of us would agree on the definition.

Agreed. The enemy will not abide by the rules no matter what tactics we use. Reciprocity is not in play here. Even if they behead a captured American soldier, we're not going to shoot an Al Qaeda terrorist in Gitmo in reprisal.

590 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:24:45pm

re: #584 Thanos

I do kind of think that whether a particular guy was 'number 3' or not is really aside from the main point of Ice's origional post. Its like pushing the one weak point of her argument, as if that negates the rest of it.

591 That's Glenn Beck to you  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:24:48pm

re: #452 Racer X

Is it just me, or has the vibe on LGF been really weird the past few days?

That is probably because I haven't been around.

But I am here for the moment.

I am exhausted from my day today, got home and flipped in the computer. When I amin such a mood, I like to sit at the computer, clear my mind and then the first word that comes to me i just type into google.

Tonight's word? Torture.

Because I spent an hour talking to Sarah Palin. And I had to pretend that I liked it, that I found her interesting and that we were "breaking ground".

I smiled so hard I almost broke my teeth.

When I was I young and single I had a few girlfriends who were "caller" grilfriends. They'd call every evening at the same time and expect you to talk for an hour or so. If you weren't paying attention to what they were saying they'd yell "Are you paying attention to me?!" followed by the quiz : "OK - what was I just talking about?"

I got pretty good at sounding engaged. And I got really good at doing stuff quietly, like doing the dishes, throwing darts, making faces in the mirror - anything to pass the time.

Well on this occasion I was trapped. Cameras would record my every move. My every facial expression. And there weren't any darts around (luckily for Mrs. Palin).

Man that was hard. Sure - I looked engaged and engrossed but the inner dialogue was "Holy shit - I play up the 'unstable nationalist' because it sells books and drives ratings. This lunatic is fully bought in and doubling down."

Oh well.

592 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:24:53pm

re: #579 BryanS

Why do tragedies have to be cause for fundies to appeal to polemic rants about repenting? Didn't Fallwell say something stupid around 911 as well? I'm glad not all religious folk do this, but it is a special kind of crazy to say what Robertson said.

I am baffled as to an answer. It is just mind-boggling. I do understand that some religious people see everything as an act of god or the will of god, good things are blessings, bad things are challenges or punishment, but to say those things publicly like that is beyond the pale.

593 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:25:48pm

re: #589 Dark_Falcon

Again, shouldn't we prove it actually gives useful info? :p


...

I'd say that the burden of proof is on the side of 'torture is useful' not the other way around, too.

594 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:26:41pm

re: #592 Bagua

I think the Falwells and Buchanans really see themselves as prophets speaking the truth to the masses out of the wilderness. Its creepy and sad.

595 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:27:10pm

re: #593 windsagio

Again, shouldn't we prove it actually gives useful info? :p

...

I'd say that the burden of proof is on the side of 'torture is useful' not the other way around, too.

well how exactly would you prove it without trying it?

596 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:27:43pm

re: #590 windsagio

I do kind of think that whether a particular guy was 'number 3' or not is really aside from the main point of Ice's origional post. Its like pushing the one weak point of her argument, as if that negates the rest of it.

Maybe so, but we like to be as honest as possible here because it makes us all tougher, and strengthens our position and arguments collectively. Leading with straw is never a good idea, and trying to blow out the flames on the straw leads to bad conclusions. Better to concede that point, let it burn down, and go to the other args.

597 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:28:00pm

re: #595 brookly red

there are plenty of ways you could do psychological experiments with mild torture and willing subjects.

598 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:28:14pm

re: #593 windsagio

Again, shouldn't we prove it actually gives useful info? :p

...

I'd say that the burden of proof is on the side of 'torture is useful' not the other way around, too.

I don't think it's so much "DOES it give useful info?" as it is "Does it give as much/more useful info than non-torture interrogation techniques?"

/if it ain't broke, don't break it!

599 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:28:31pm

re: #597 windsagio

there are plenty of ways you could do psychological experiments with mild torture and willing subjects.

I think they call that basic training...

600 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:28:52pm

re: #596 Thanos

oh I agree with that point. I know thats what I do.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thoguht the point WAS conceded.


... err either way, Ice doesn't need me defending her >>

601 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:28:54pm

re: #540 windsagio

Argh that was deeply uncool of me. I don't want to try to intimidate you into not saying how you feel, It makes me crazy when people do that to me.


I apologize >>

Heh. Upding for the apology...but don't worry about trying to intimidate me into not saying something that I had already said.

602 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:29:01pm

re: #582 Bagua

You know we are not talking about soldiers captured in battle, we are talking about exceptional terrorists. And we already know how the enemy treats our troops, they behead them and use torture that all of us would agree on the definition.

Not my point at all. I will grant you that the animals are animals. I am asking if you would consider our treatment of the "subhuman them" torture if it was done to a US soldier. If the answer is "yes", then we are torturing prisoners.

Full stop.

Given that, do you find it acceptable, knowing that it will be used as justification for the treatment of US personnel? Keep in mind that military records indicate that dozens of people have been interrogated to death by US personnel. Not good.

603 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:29:33pm

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
- Thomas Jefferson

604 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:29:33pm

re: #568 Thanos

"Chief of operations" is a title given by AQ to tons of operatives. Z might have been "Chief of ops" in Peshawar, where he sent trainees to camp Khalden, but he was never AQ number three. There are "Chiefs of operations" and others with similar titles in every theater AQ operates in. Please understand that I used to read intel reports and Pakistani papers nightly. I never heard of the guy until the DU crowd and others started using him as an example of a victim of torture. Perhaps they are correct that he was a victim of torture, but nobody serious ever considered him number three.

The CIA isn't serious? And Bush mentioned him in a 2006 speech.

President Bush personally used Abu Zubaydah’s perceived “value” as a detainee to justify the use of the CIA's harsher interrogation techniques[161] as well as Abu Zubaydah’s detention in secret CIA prisons around the world.[162]

In a speech in 2006, President Bush claimed that Abu Zubaydah initially revealed useful intelligence, including information that allegedly helped foil a terrorist attack on American soil, but that Abu Zubaydah became uncooperative.[161] It was only then, he reported, that an “alternative set of procedures” was used on Abu Zubaydah in order to gain valuable intelligence and were “safe and lawful.”[161] He also stated that Abu Zubaydah had received training in how to resist interrogation, and thus more aggressive techniques were mandated.[161] These claims directly conflict with the reports of the original F.B.I. agents tasked with interrogating Abu Zubaydah who had been receiving crucial pieces of information from him without the use of harsher techniques[2][43][44], as well as other government officials.[4][64]

That's wiki, so of course it has to be checked. Here's Bush's 2006 speech using Zubaiada as an example of why torture and detentions were necessary.

Here's more:
CIA Mistaken on 'High-Value' Detainee, Document Shows

This is hairsplitting, at this point. Yes, they thought he was a highlevel person in AQ. They were wrong. They tortured him, and it was worthless-- he'd given up all the little he knew before that.

605 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:29:36pm

re: #592 Bagua

re: #594 windsagio

I think this is the kind of thing Hitchens has in mind when he wrote his God is not Great book.

606 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:29:47pm

re: #583 ausador

Dude, that is exactly what we are talking about...

Can we use the techniques like these [Link: www.pen.org...]

Can this be done, because the ACLU says this is torture?

Quote from link page F. (U) Fear Up Mild: Moderately increasing the fear level in a
detainee.
G. (U) Reduced Fear: Reducing the fear level in a detainee.
H. (U) Pride and Ego Up: Boosting the ego of a detainee.
I. (U) Pride and Ego Down: Attacking or insulting the ego of a
detainee, not beyond the limits that would apply to an EPW. [Caution:
Article 17 of Geneva III provides, “Prisoners of war who
refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any
unpleasant of disadvantageous treatment of any kind”. Other
nations that believe detainees are entitled to EPW protections may
consider this technique inconsistent with the provisions of
Geneva.]
J. (U) Futility: Invoking the feeling of futility of a detainee.
K. (U) We Know All: Convincing the detainee that the interrogator
already knows the answers to questions he asks the detainee.

607 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:30:05pm

re: #599 brookly red

As I understand it, the argument against torture is that people quickly break down and tell their interrigaters what they think they want to hear.

To properly test it, you need a certain level of awfulness.

Still, + for the clever turn of concept :)

608 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:31:09pm

re: #593 windsagio

Again, shouldn't we prove it actually gives useful info? :p

...

I'd say that the burden of proof is on the side of 'torture is useful' not the other way around, too.

Torture can work. What you need is a method of verifying the information. It works best by starting with something we can check easily. If the subject jerks you around, he gets smacked around. After it becomes clear what he will suffer if he lies, he'll stop lying.

609 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:31:17pm

re: #587 windsagio

Alot of our foreign policy is based in these deeply laid webs of tradition, short term opportunism, and lobbying. If we look at it, we go blind. If we think about it, we go mad!

That's why I try to be flexible. Not every administration attains perfection. If we say water boarding is wrong then what do we say of war in general and the casualties of war known as collateral damage. We create rules that outlaw water boarding while accepting and finding CD legal? That is we can't water board but if we drop a 500 pounder on an AQ target and inadvertently kill 4 kids that's legal or morally acceptable?

The whole thing has been madness since 9/11. The deaths continue in Afghanistan and in various parts of the world. The madness of terrorism has led to war which in the end is always a form of madness. With all of this death and destruction I simply see water boarding as a mere blip in the greater moral spectrum.

However, to answer some of this. President Obama has signed off against all water boarding and that's acceptable since he is the CiC.

610 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:31:38pm

re: #501 Bagua

Sorry, but Bullshit.

We did not become monsters like KSM.

But that's the core question here--how far can we go without becoming monsters? Some people have a simple answer--we can't, no matter what we do, cause we're the good guys. I don't agree.

611 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:31:50pm

re: #602 austin_blue

Not my point at all. I will grant you that the animals are animals. I am asking if you would consider our treatment of the "subhuman them" torture if it was done to a US soldier. If the answer is "yes", then we are torturing prisoners.

Full stop.

Given that, do you find it acceptable, knowing that it will be used as justification for the treatment of US personnel? Keep in mind that military records indicate that dozens of people have been interrogated to death by US personnel. Not good.

I don't have any stats on the way our prisoners are treated but if it anything like the way our civilians just going to work are treated then maybe we shouldn't even be taking prisoners in the first place.

612 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:32:03pm

re: #605 BryanS

Ooh ooh! can we fight about whether or not Hitchens is an enormous black hole of an ass?

613 sagehen  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:32:28pm

re: #410 Bagua

One can call term waterboarding a mild form of torture or not, both are reasonable positions. But considering what we all watched, people jumping to their deaths from the burning towers, and knowing that we captured the evil mastermind behind this, how can you be at a loss for the rational behind using (whatever) to acquire the information to stop additional attacks?

We can disagree if it was correct or not, or permissible or not, but surely the rational and motivation behind it is obvious and compelling.

A desire for vengeance is indeed both obvious and compelling. It's totally understandable why such motivations would be at work.

Teling themselves they were doing "whatever was necessary" to acquire the information to stop further attacks was a sellable justification... for doing things that professional interrogators have repeatedly said were not actually the most effective ways of acquiring that information.

614 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:32:36pm

re: #589 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The enemy will not abide by the rules no matter what tactics we use. Reciprocity is not in play here. Even if they behead a captured American soldier, we're not going to shoot an Al Qaeda terrorist in Gitmo in reprisal.

That is correct, and Americans do not use aggressive interrogation as a punishment, it is used to prevent atrocities. I blame the terrorists for forcing this debate upon us, we want to heal the sick, feed the hungry and uphold human rights. Now we have to deal with people who want to massacre and commit mass murder. They are ultimately to blame and we are ultimately blameless.

We talk endlessly about this water-boarding, what about the fact that we need to use air-strikes to battle these terrorists? These often involve unintended casualties such as dead children. Horrendous. Again, I blame the terrorists for forcing these choices on us.

615 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:33:23pm

re: #600 windsagio

Well she did but then she came back and reasserted - so I had to go back to the vid to see if it was true, thus she burned up some of my time that I'd rather spend chasing Kasey with my rc black helicopter or something.

616 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:33:29pm

re: #612 windsagio

Ooh ooh! can we fight about whether or not Hitchens is an enormous black hole of an ass?

I doubt there is much disagreement that he is, but it sure is a lot of fun listening him being an ass.

617 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:34:23pm

re: #594 windsagio

I wouldn't even put Buchanan in the league of Robertson or Falwell. He is totally without guile. In his semiretirement, he wears his blood-and-soil conservatism on his sleeve and never minces words about it. He believes every word coming out of his mouth. His religion is orthodox, not looney. He is a bit racist. He is somewhat ethnocentric, but is shocking because he is so open about it. Bad as he is on various subjects, he is whatever is the opposite of a hypocrite. Many are worse but are too much a coward to say it out loud.

I've known plenty of people who would never drop the N-bomb, but push that electric door lock in their car when a black guy walks past, not caring if he hears that General Motors KATHUNK sound. Buchanan is exactly as racist as he appears and no more, so I add points to his score for that.

618 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:34:39pm

re: #586 brookly red

No dude I am all for it, I just don't think we should turn it into some some kind of freaking popularity contest where only the top 10 get it... war is war & I say play to win.

Why stop at waterboarding, then? Get the chicken shears and start lopping off knuckles! That'll get 'em spilling their guts!

619 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:35:05pm

re: #608 Dark_Falcon

Torture can work. What you need is a method of verifying the information. It works best by starting with something we can check easily. If the subject jerks you around, he gets smacked around. After it becomes clear what he will suffer if he lies, he'll stop lying.

Torture doesn't work at, rough interrogation and a little abuse works very well though. Torture as noted by many others here only leads the victim to say anything to get you to stop producing poor intelligence.

620 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:35:21pm

re: #604 iceweasel

sometime you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time...life is shitty that way especially for AQ operatives...this whole debate is third rate, the CIA is trying to save lives and this guy didn't up at Gitmo for no reason....the whole thing is losing traction

621 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:35:25pm

A woman walked into the pharmacy, walked up to the pharmacist, looked straight into his eyes, and said, 'I would like to buy some cyanide.' The pharmacist asked, 'Why in the world do you need cyanide?' The lady replied, 'I need it to poison my husband.'

The pharmacist's eyes got big and he exclaimed, 'Lord have mercy! I can't give you cyanide to kill your husband. That's against the law! I'll lose my license! They'll throw both of us in jail! All kinds of bad things will happen.

Absolutely not! You CANNOT have any cyanide!

The lady reached into her purse and pulled out a picture of her husband in bed with the pharmacist's wife.

The pharmacist looked at the picture and replied, 'Well now, that's different. You didn't tell me you had a prescription.

622 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:35:30pm

re: #609 Gus 802

Theres a wonderful doonesbury I remember about that subject, which I'm trying to look up.

Basically its the press grilling a mil. representative about collateral damage in some attack, and he keeps apologizing... Finally he yells, "For Gods sake, its a war!" All the press people smile and say things like 'finally', and it ends with him saying "The coalition deeply apologizes for my outburst".


Describing a comic alwyas ruins it, I'll try to find it.

623 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:36:29pm

re: #617 keloyd

I suspect that creeping senility might have something to do with it. (not to be mean to the man, or hope that on anyone, but thats one of the things you see. They start losing that 'should I actually say that?' filter.)

624 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:36:38pm

re: #604 iceweasel

That alls sounds like agitprop to me. People are mindreading. Z did have knowledge of who he sent to the camp from Peshawar, it was the stop over point enroute, and he was facilitator or chief of ops.

Also wiki [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Notice he tries to paint Khalden as "not one of the bad camps" but ... they were all bad. See where he thinks it's fine to train Jihadis against Israel and Chechnya in a "good camp"?

625 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:36:42pm

re: #614 Bagua

That is correct, and Americans do not use aggressive interrogation as a punishment, it is used to prevent atrocities. I blame the terrorists for forcing this debate upon us, we want to heal the sick, feed the hungry and uphold human rights. Now we have to deal with people who want to massacre and commit mass murder. They are ultimately to blame and we are ultimately blameless.

We talk endlessly about this water-boarding, what about the fact that we need to use air-strikes to battle these terrorists? These often involve unintended casualties such as dead children. Horrendous. Again, I blame the terrorists for forcing these choices on us.

Quite Concur. Whatever we think in this debate, it bears repeating that America's hand was forced. Al Qaeda attacks defenseless people and then hides behind women and children. Alot of the nasty things we've done have been forced on us.

626 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:36:51pm

re: #602 austin_blue

Not my point at all. I will grant you that the animals are animals. I am asking if you would consider our treatment of the "subhuman them" torture if it was done to a US soldier. If the answer is "yes", then we are torturing prisoners.

Full stop.

Given that, do you find it acceptable, knowing that it will be used as justification for the treatment of US personnel? Keep in mind that military records indicate that dozens of people have been interrogated to death by US personnel. Not good.

Thank you for the clarification. But please note, I do not consider them animals nor subhuman, that is the sort of framing that leads to the horrors we would all condemn. They are human, evil, but human.

Also, I grant that water-boarding et. al. could be termed a mild form of torture and is certainly prohibited in all but the most extreme circumstances. Unfortunately the terrorists are forcing these choices on us.

627 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:37:19pm

re: #614 Bagua

Good point. What is worse - water boarding some prick who we know is a terrorist, or accidently killing an innocent family with an air strike?

628 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:37:34pm

re: #602 austin_blue

Not my point at all. I will grant you that the animals are animals. I am asking if you would consider our treatment of the "subhuman them" torture if it was done to a US soldier. If the answer is "yes", then we are torturing prisoners.

Full stop.

Given that, do you find it acceptable, knowing that it will be used as justification for the treatment of US personnel? Keep in mind that military records indicate that dozens of people have been interrogated to death by US personnel. Not good.

Absolutely. Opposing torture has nothing to do with feeling sympathy for terrorists or anything else similarly pussified.

629 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:37:45pm

re: #622 windsagio

Theres a wonderful doonesbury I remember about that subject, which I'm trying to look up.

Basically its the press grilling a mil. representative about collateral damage in some attack, and he keeps apologizing... Finally he yells, "For Gods sake, its a war!" All the press people smile and say things like 'finally', and it ends with him saying "The coalition deeply apologizes for my outburst".

Describing a comic alwyas ruins it, I'll try to find it.

I don't know why but when I think about these things sometimes I always think of "everybody's right and everybody's wrong."

630 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:37:46pm

re: #611 brookly red

I don't have any stats on the way our prisoners are treated but if it anything like the way our civilians just going to work are treated then maybe we shouldn't even be taking prisoners in the first place.

My man, if you start walking that road, you will soon find yourself justifying insane shit like flying airplanes into buildings as a legitimate defensive action.

631 albusteve  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:00pm

re: #618 austin_blue

Why stop at waterboarding, then? Get the chicken shears and start lopping off knuckles! That'll get 'em spilling their guts!

we shouldn't stop waterboarding...the few people that get their Constitutional, treaty undies in a bunch can get out of the way and shut the fuck up as far as I'm concerned

632 brookly red  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:00pm

re: #618 austin_blue

Why stop at waterboarding, then? Get the chicken shears and start lopping off knuckles! That'll get 'em spilling their guts!

yes & milk leads to heroin...

633 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:03pm

Well I made it back. Had a minor (user) computer issue and then family tending-to.

How's yoo?

634 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:37pm

I could sure use a fatty* right about now.

/*A big spliff.

635 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:39pm

re: #614 Bagua

That is correct, and Americans do not use aggressive interrogation as a punishment, it is used to prevent atrocities. I blame the terrorists for forcing this debate upon us, we want to heal the sick, feed the hungry and uphold human rights. Now we have to deal with people who want to massacre and commit mass murder. They are ultimately to blame and we are ultimately blameless.

We talk endlessly about this water-boarding, what about the fact that we need to use air-strikes to battle these terrorists? These often involve unintended casualties such as dead children. Horrendous. Again, I blame the terrorists for forcing these choices on us.

I do wonder where the moral clarity lies in declaring certain behaviors war crimes. The bombing campaigns during previous wars--such as the routine bombings of cities in Europe during WWII by both sides--would now be considered unethical war practices. So bombing today is ok if we end up killing innocents, so long as we try not to kill them. To what extent to we have to go to protect the innocent? At what cost? Not suggesting we don't try to protect the innocent, but these kind of moral questions are not as easy to answer as it seems. Trying to be Snow White is a good way to lose a war.

636 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:55pm

re: #633 ggt

argh! Yer killin' me!

637 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:38:57pm

re: #624 Thanos

That alls sounds like agitprop to me.

Bush's speech was agitprop, yes.
The facts remain: He was not a highlevel A-Q operative. The Bush admin used him, by name, as a justification for torture. He was tortured. And for nothing.

638 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:40:00pm

re: #637 iceweasel

I was referring to the second part - where do you see Bush saying Z was number three? I didn't see that.

639 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:40:37pm

re: #637 iceweasel

America would never use such techniques! I think you have us confused with Communist Russia!!

640 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:41:18pm

re: #610 SanFranciscoZionist

But that's the core question here--how far can we go without becoming monsters? Some people have a simple answer--we can't, no matter what we do, cause we're the good guys. I don't agree.

Stopping short of disfigurement or maiming works for me, provided there is good reason to believe that the subject possesses actionable, high-value intelligence.

641 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:41:21pm

re: #602 austin_blue

Not my point at all. I will grant you that the animals are animals. I am asking if you would consider our treatment of the "subhuman them" torture if it was done to a US soldier. If the answer is "yes", then we are torturing prisoners.

Full stop.

Given that, do you find it acceptable, knowing that it will be used as justification for the treatment of US personnel? Keep in mind that military records indicate that dozens of people have been interrogated to death by US personnel. Not good.


Yeah, I've posted the DOD records of detainee murders before. And before anyone jumps on me for that, that's exactly how they were classified: homicides.

642 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:41:41pm

re: #609 Gus 802

yes but don't forget he kept all of Bush's interrogation techniques by Obama's own Executive Order [Link: www.usatoday.com...]


"....shall not be subjected to any interrogation technique or approach, or any treatment related to interrogation, that is not authorized by and listed in Army Field Manual 2 22.3

[Link: fas.org...]

643 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:42:14pm

Did you poke through the list of people who trained at Khalden when you hit that link?

644 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:42:46pm

re: #638 Thanos

I was referring to the second part - where do you see Bush saying Z was number three? I didn't see that.

It's not in there. If this is now going to devolve into 'who called him number 3, when, and where' I'll have to do that later.

645 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:42:47pm

re: #641 iceweasel

A natural segue from here would be about how Abu Ghraib was actually just a few bad actors, and had absolutely nothing to do with military policy.

646 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:43:12pm

re: #631 albusteve

we shouldn't stop waterboarding...the few people that get their Constitutional, treaty undies in a bunch can get out of the way and shut the fuck up as far as I'm concerned

You mean people like John McCain?

647 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:43:14pm

Apropos of nothing, but I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I'm glad Ludwig hasn't been around tonight. That helped us have a discussion with it becoming a flame war. It's not a conclusion I like, but there it is.

648 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:43:31pm

re: #642 lrsshadow

yes but don't forget he kept all of Bush's interrogation techniques by Obama's own Executive Order [Link: www.usatoday.com...]

"...shall not be subjected to any interrogation technique or approach, or any treatment related to interrogation, that is not authorized by and listed in Army Field Manual 2 22.3

[Link: fas.org...]

No, he rescinded all the EIT, of which waterboarding was one. On Jan 22, 2009.

649 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:43:49pm

re: #623 windsagio

I suspect that creeping senility might have something to do with it. (not to be mean to the man, or hope that on anyone, but thats one of the things you see. They start losing that 'should I actually say that?' filter.)

Hmm, I disagree. While commentating on MSNBC, he went on a long discourse on how bad democracy is worse than somewhat competent dictatorship. He cited Franco's antidemocratic but Catholic rule as better than democracy by people who are backwards, childish, or generally unworthy. Pretty much the population must be moral, mature, and preferably Catholic for democracy to work well, says Pat. I would call that being in a very unusual philosophical place for a modern person, but not creeping senility. That decrease in the ability to censor your words - that will be a big factor in 10 years, imho.

650 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:07pm

What exactly would you sanction if it meant saving your family from imminent danger?

Would torture be appropriate?

651 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:14pm

Why is it Opera runs LGF great on my old tablet PC and both Firefox and IE suck all over the place?

652 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:21pm

re: #635 BryanS

I do wonder where the moral clarity lies in declaring certain behaviors war crimes. The bombing campaigns during previous wars--such as the routine bombings of cities in Europe during WWII by both sides--would now be considered unethical war practices. So bombing today is ok if we end up killing innocents, so long as we try not to kill them. To what extent to we have to go to protect the innocent? At what cost? Not suggesting we don't try to protect the innocent, but these kind of moral questions are not as easy to answer as it seems. Trying to be Snow White is a good way to lose a war.

Agreed, these are thorny issues. Let's look at KSM, we all know the argument that we water-boarded/"tortured" him to stop impending attacks. But what about just capturing other AQ terrorists?

Here is the premise, we know that going after the terrorist using air-strikes will also kill innocents unintentionally, we know this in advance. What is more humane, to protect KSM rights, or to treat him harshly so that we can avoid killing innocents through collateral damage? Which is the more moral choice?

653 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:27pm

re: #645 windsagio

A natural segue from here would be about how Abu Ghraib was actually just a few bad actors, and had absolutely nothing to do with military policy.

Well, that's what will happen with the Holder prosecutions. A few lowlevel operatives will take the fall.

654 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:28pm

re: #645 windsagio

A natural segue from here would be about how Abu Ghraib was actually just a few bad actors, and had absolutely nothing to do with military policy.

No I think that had everything to do with vague memos and poor leadership skills and failure to accept responsibility, see my earlier comments on President Bush way upthread.

655 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:35pm

re: #642 lrsshadow

Thanks.

re: #648 iceweasel

Copy.

656 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:44:48pm

re: #626 Bagua

Thank you for the clarification. But please note, I do not consider them animals nor subhuman, that is the sort of framing that leads to the horrors we would all condemn. They are human, evil, but human.

Also, I grant that water-boarding et. al. could be termed a mild form of torture and is certainly prohibited in all but the most extreme circumstances. Unfortunately the terrorists are forcing these choices on us.

First off, great post. You framed the situation nicely. Here's where we disagree. The terrorists are not forcing us to do anything. They are captured prisoners. They are totally in our power. We are *choosing* our actions. That's the crux of it. Is it acceptable to torture people because we feel they are acting barbarically?

657 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:45:01pm

Just received this via email. Not sure about the organization - they seem legit.

We arrived in Port-au-Prince this afternoon. The airport is so full of people trying to evacuate that it is difficult to find transportation into the city.

We traveled about 35 minutes by car to a hotel called Villa Creole. It is complete devastation here. Most of the city does not have electricity. Crowds of people are standing in the streets, taking care not to get too close to shaky buildings. Many in the crowds are injured, and dead bodies are lined along the roadside. Injured people are sleeping next to people who are dead. The streets are littered with cables from downed power lines, as well as cars and buses that crashed or were abandoned when the earthquake and aftershocks hit.

The hotel here has been turned into a small makeshift hospital. About 90-100 people were standing in the hotel driveway, waiting for help. We instantly began conducting triage and treating patients alongside a Haitian doctor from Hope for Haiti. Medical supplies -- such as IVs, pain medicines, and bandages -- are extremely limited. Most patients that we have seen so far are suffering from broken bones, fractures, and ruptures. Some are in more critical condition, but there is no hospital we can refer them to. Our team will sleep outside tonight. Like everyone else, we are afraid to sleep inside a building. The aftershocks are still coming.

If you have already sent a donation to support our emergency response team, we thank you for your compassion. If not, we hope you will join us in responding to this devastating earthquake. Your donation will help us bring in the medical personnel, supplies and equipment we need to save as many lives as possible here.

Donate Now

658 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:45:03pm

re: #645 windsagio

A natural segue from here would be about how Abu Ghraib was actually just a few bad actors, and had absolutely nothing to do with military policy.

Come on now don't let facts get in the way of his point.

659 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:45:12pm

re: #647 Dark_Falcon

Apropos of nothing, but I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I'm glad Ludwig hasn't been around tonight. That helped us have a discussion with it becoming a flame war. It's not a conclusion I like, but there it is.

You are a stupid moron.

660 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:45:21pm

re: #647 Dark_Falcon

lol I like ludwig. The guy has some rough edges, even by my standards, but he's good for not letting himself be silenced for having unpopular views.

661 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:45:34pm

I'm saying that Z was probably one of the bad guys, and I don't hold the pity for him that the DU crowd has.

662 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:46:00pm

re: #649 keloyd

In that, he agrees with George Lucas.


(really!)

663 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:46:15pm

re: #526 Spare O'Lake

You are being very unfair.
Assuming that you believe in the concept of nationhood, and in the idea of war as a last resort method of resolving international disputes, then you should allow that patriotism is an important coping mechanism for the individual and an important tool of the state, particularly in time of war. Patriotism, like any belief system, is not free of difficulty...but neither is it necessarily a bad thing or an invalid response to a perceived attack on the national interest.
BTW you are wrong to imply that provocative or rude dem lib arguments which prompt such responses are somehow less emotional than conservative arguments.

You are being deliberately obtuse if you think that was an attack on patriotism. And if you think that wrapping up in the flag in response to any political discussion you don't like is 'patriotism', you have a different definition than I.

This thread has included several outright attacks on liberals' patriotism and ability to feel for their country, and it offends me when people say such things.

664 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:46:37pm

623, Windsagio -
OH, if you're oldish yourself, do you remember the end of David Brinkley's career, running the Sunday morning show and talking smack about Bill Clinton. THAT is the perfect illustration of your point. Brinkley was still sharp, but less able to pick the right time and place for certain comments.

665 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:46:54pm

re: #656 austin_blue

First off, great post. You framed the situation nicely. Here's where we disagree. The terrorists are not forcing us to do anything. They are captured prisoners. They are totally in our power. We are *choosing* our actions. That's the crux of it. Is it acceptable to torture people because we feel they are acting barbarically?

I don't know, I think if one chooses to commit terrorist actions, one assumes the risks. In actuality, torture at the hands of one's terrorist allies is a possibility.

666 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:47:03pm

re: #631 albusteve

we shouldn't stop waterboarding...the few people that get their Constitutional, treaty undies in a bunch can get out of the way and shut the fuck up as far as I'm concerned

Then you tacitly approve of every outrage perpetrated by the other side.

It's war, dontcha know? Is that it? Pffft.

667 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:47:17pm

re: #645 windsagio

A natural segue from here would be about how Abu Ghraib was actually just a few bad actors, and had absolutely nothing to do with military policy.

Well, yes I would argue that no that you mention it.

668 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:47:40pm

re: #663 SanFranciscoZionist

Thats almost exactly my definition of "Jingoism", by the way.

669 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:48:07pm

re: #661 Thanos

I'm saying that Z was probably one of the bad guys, and I don't hold the pity for him that the DU crowd has.

He wasn't the kind of bad guy we were led to believe, that's all. That's why it's such a fuckup that the Bush admin made him posterboy for why such tactics were necessary.
It's not necessary for me to 'pity him' to point this out. I don't give a shit about him. I do give a shit about what my country does.
And I couldn't tell you what the 'DU crowd' thinks, as I don't read there and consider them analogous to Free Republic-- it's where the nuts on one side congregate.

670 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:48:20pm

re: #664 keloyd

no I get ya, Buchanan might just kinda be a fascist >>

671 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:48:23pm

re: #652 Bagua

Agreed, these are thorny issues. Let's look at KSM, we all know the argument that we water-boarded/"tortured" him to stop impending attacks. But what about just capturing other AQ terrorists?

Here is the premise, we know that going after the terrorist using air-strikes will also kill innocents unintentionally, we know this in advance. What is more humane, to protect KSM rights, or to treat him harshly so that we can avoid killing innocents through collateral damage? Which is the more moral choice?

See, I do not feel bad about KSM's waterboarding. But then I try to come up with what would be required to make that kind of treatment ok. It's hard to pin that down, and I think that is the real danger of going down the route of torture. That said, for all the carping about excesses of the Boosh administration, infringement on civil liberties don't touch anything done during WWII.

672 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:49:50pm

re: #638 Thanos

I was referring to the second part - where do you see Bush saying Z was number three? I didn't see that.

I don't see Bush saying it but it's clear his sources - the same ones who ranked him as AQ's chief of operations - did, so it's likely he shared that belief at least for as long as they did:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

An al-Qaeda associate captured by the CIA and subjected to harsh interrogation techniques said his jailers later told him they had mistakenly thought he was the No. 3 man in the organization's hierarchy and a partner of Osama bin Laden, according to newly released excerpts from a 2007 hearing.

"They told me, 'Sorry, we discover that you are not Number 3, not a partner, not even a fighter,' " said Abu Zubaida, speaking in broken English, according to the new transcript of a Combatant Status Review Tribunal held at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

President George W. Bush described Abu Zubaida in 2002 as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations." Intelligence, military and law enforcement sources told The Washington Post this year that officials later concluded he was a Pakistan-based "fixer" for radical Islamist ideologues, but not a formal member of al-Qaeda, much less one of its leaders.

673 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:50:15pm

re: #671 BryanS

I'm firmly on the side of 'its never justified'. If I were in a position where I had family members at risk, I might disagree... BUT! That would be me being irrational and emotional... incapable of making proper decisions.

674 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:50:21pm

re: #659 Spare O'Lake

You are a stupid moron.

You updinged me, then posted that. Did you agree with what I said or am I a jerk?re: #660 windsagio

lol I like ludwig. The guy has some rough edges, even by my standards, but he's good for not letting himself be silenced for having unpopular views.

I like him too. For AGW or evolution, he's terrific. But for debates on enhanced interrogation, he gets very nasty and the thread has a tendency to turn into a flame war.

675 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:50:46pm

re: #670 windsagio

no I get ya, Buchanan might just kinda be a fascist >>

And Devil his due, he would not run from the label. Then he sits there and chats with Rachel Maddow and they seem to genuinely get along, not just be civil. What's that about George Lucas?

676 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:51:26pm

re: #674 Dark_Falcon

I took Spare's post as a joke, too. Kinda hard to tell sometimes, when *cough* certain people make posts like that perfectly seriously ;)

677 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:51:30pm

re: #610 SanFranciscoZionist

But that's the core question here--how far can we go without becoming monsters? Some people have a simple answer--we can't, no matter what we do, cause we're the good guys. I don't agree.

Agreed, we pay a price and we are diminished as a result. We have the same problem with our strikes against people who are not prisoners.

The important point to consider, is here we are agonizing over the harsh treatment of a man who committed a horrendous mass murder. On the other side, they are debating how to best massacre the most people. We are very different.

Let me add a dilemma. We are fighting against this terrorist group, and we know we will have to bomb various targets and commit mistakes in the hopes of stopping the terrorists. What if the choice is to water-board/torture one man, or to launch an attack that we know will have dozens or hundreds of "collateral" deaths, and by the water-boarding we could avoid this, what is the more moral choice?

678 changomo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:51:37pm

I've struggled with the use of torture but was enlightened by an article a while back Basically the premise is this. All torture should be illegal, but not all be prosecuted....


Let me put it another way....I have no problem with Torture with Bin Laden even if it is illegal. If I were on the jury, I would find anybody that commits torture on Bin Laden not guilty. In fact there are cases in history where the overwhelming evidence shows a murderer is guilty, but the jury understand why they did it (say a father kills the person that raped their daughter)

You have to make all torture illegal to avoid a slippery slope (especially if you end up torturing an innocent person) Make sure you damn well are sure the person is guilty before you torture them.

There is a real case in Germany where a police chief threatened to torture a child abductor if he didn't reveal where he was hiding a kid...he was fired....

Torture is not always immoral, only immoral when applied to the innocent or not proportionate with the offender's crimes or pending crime (ticking time bomb scenario)

I know some people here would disagree with me, that if by fact a person knew where an atomic bomb, and the only way to get the info out of them was torture......they would still say not to do it. I respect that...I just think sometimes saving the lives of innocent millions is worth the pain of one guilty person. (and since torture is illegal, I would be willing to make that decision and hope a jury of my PEERS would acquit me)

679 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:52:54pm

re: #665 ggt

I don't know, I think if one chooses to commit terrorist actions, one assumes the risks. In actuality, torture at the hands of one's terrorist allies is a possibility.

Yes, but one could also argue that when the US officially adopts waterboarding and torture, it imperils our own troops further should one be captured.

680 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:52:58pm

re: #675 keloyd

Lucas defends his elitist view, telling the New York Times, "That's sort of why I say a benevolent despot is the ideal ruler. He can actually get things done. The idea that power corrupts is very true and it's a big human who can get past that."

681 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:53:29pm

re: #669 iceweasel

He wasn't the kind of bad guy we were led to believe, that's all. That's why it's such a fuckup that the Bush admin made him posterboy for why such tactics were necessary.
It's not necessary for me to 'pity him' to point this out. I don't give a shit about him. I do give a shit about what my country does.
And I couldn't tell you what the 'DU crowd' thinks, as I don't read there and consider them analogous to Free Republic-- it's where the nuts on one side congregate.

Every mid level leader killed in Afghanistan is billed as "commander" or "emir for the area" etc. when they aren't always. You have to expect agitprop from our side as well, and you should get better at reading through it when you see it either side. Does it matter much in the end? Z was very likely a very bad person. Peshawar is also the place Bin Laden frequented most when in Pakistan, and it's probable that they met. I can't say for certain, but it's likely.

682 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:53:35pm

re: #673 windsagio

I'm firmly on the side of 'its never justified'. If I were in a position where I had family members at risk, I might disagree... BUT! That would be me being irrational and emotional... incapable of making proper decisions.

If that family was a soldier in-country?

683 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:53:42pm

Brb, lunch.

684 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:53:50pm

RIP Teddy Pendergrass, 59

685 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:54:00pm

Changomo - McCain took that position - the presidential pardon will defend the vanishingly rare torturer in a Jack Bauer scenario. If the CIA dude had any manly virtue at all, he would gladly put his own freedom on the line to protect us from the ticking bomb.

686 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:54:29pm

re: #647 Dark_Falcon

Apropos of nothing, but I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I'm glad Ludwig hasn't been around tonight. That helped us have a discussion with it becoming a flame war. It's not a conclusion I like, but there it is.

Exactly my point on last nights thread. We can do without the bullying and the hostility. Tonight we better understand each others points. None of us are moron, none of us are lying.

687 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:54:38pm

re: #673 windsagio

I'm firmly on the side of 'its never justified'. If I were in a position where I had family members at risk, I might disagree... BUT! That would be me being irrational and emotional... incapable of making proper decisions.

I'm more of the opinion that it may at times be justified, but there is no safe way to administer it in a way it is not abused.

688 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:54:40pm

re: #682 ggt

It wouldn't matter... Or it shouldn't.

I believe that torture isn't only morally wrong, but that its also inneffective. If a loved one in danger changed that, it wouldn't be my mind speaking, it'd be irrational fear.

689 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:55:07pm

re: #684 Gus 802

RIP Teddy Pendergrass, 59

Looks like another...

Youtube Video
690 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:55:21pm

re: #680 windsagio

I think he pinched that from Plato's Republic, but it's too late and I'm too lazy to look it up now.

691 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:55:28pm

re: #679 iceweasel

Yes, but one could also argue that when the US officially adopts waterboarding and torture, it imperils our own troops further should one be captured.

Against the current enemy --are you serious? They don't need an excuse.

692 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:55:37pm

re: #648 iceweasel

No, he rescinded all the EIT, of which waterboarding was one. On Jan 22, 2009.

No he revoked Bush's Executive Order 13440 of July 20, 2007

Which actually upheld the rights of detainees under Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. So really he struck down that executive order and put his own in saying the same thing nice try though here are the links read the orders

Here is Bush [Link: www.fas.org...]

Here is Obama [Link: www.usatoday.com...]

693 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:55:56pm

re: #650 ggt

What exactly would you sanction if it meant saving your family from imminent danger?

Would torture be appropriate?

Do you grasp how ethereal that question is? How far do you want to take that thought? An imminent threat can mean "I'm convinced bad people out there want to hurt us."

It leads to any kind of outrage.

694 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:56:02pm

re: #690 keloyd

Its still a simply awful position to take :p

695 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:56:41pm

re: #689 laZardo

Now thats someone who will be missed. I wish this kind of music was still in style >

696 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:57:19pm

re: #693 austin_blue

which was kinda my point too. Personal fear shouldn't change whats' the proper thing to do.

697 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:57:26pm

re: #695 windsagio

Now thats someone who will be missed. I wish this kind of music was still in style >

It is...in bed.

698 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:57:42pm

re: #693 austin_blue

Do you grasp how ethereal that question is? How far do you want to take that thought? An imminent threat can mean "I'm convinced bad people out there want to hurt us."

It leads to any kind of outrage.

I think the meaning of imminent is precise.

699 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:58:07pm

How many of America's enemies think we are OK now that Obama is Prez?

None.

They still hate us. They will hate us no matter what we do or say.

700 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:58:19pm

re: #681 Thanos

Every mid level leader killed in Afghanistan is billed as "commander" or "emir for the area" etc. when they aren't always. You have to expect agitprop from our side as well, and you should get better at reading through it when you see it either side. Does it matter much in the end? Z was very likely a very bad person. Peshawar is also the place Bin Laden frequented most when in Pakistan, and it's probable that they met. I can't say for certain, but it's likely.

I think it does matter, very much.
I didn't like some of Bush's policies, and I don't like it when Obama continues them or even extends them (as he has in many areas, most notably involving civil liberties and executive power).

But there is one thing Bush got right, even though it was also a bit of agitprop: "they hate us for our freedoms."
That was much mocked on the left, but I think it captures a real truth.

And my issue with the use of torture, secret prisons, extraordinary rendition, and all the other similar issues, is this: the madness and fear that infected the US in the wake of 9-11 caused us to do to ourselves what no outside influence, no terrorists, could ever have done: to violate our core values as a country.

701 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:59:01pm

re: #697 laZardo

Youtube Video
702 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:59:04pm

re: #672 Jimmah

Jimmah, we've already been there done that. AQ has lots of "chief of operations" There's at least one if not more in every theater they operate in. Z was likely "chief of operations" (recruiting)(transport)(billeting) or whatever in Peshawar.

You also have to realize that lying while interrogating someone is a tactic used, and telling someone "we know you're number three" from the "bad cop" and later having the "good cop" tell the same guy "oh no we made a mistake on that" is just another tactic to get the guy to spill info.

703 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:59:36pm

re: #694 windsagio

Not so fast, if the populace is hopelessly backward, illiterate, etc, the case for a ruling elite is stronger. In medieval times, a hereditary monarch was better for the peasant than constant coups and instability. Likewise , in Haiti (or the middle East as Buchanan opined) the little guy was better off with the Duvalier iron fist than one crooked mafia elected leader after another.

It's all about the lesser of 2 evils.

704 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:59:47pm

re: #693 austin_blue

Do you grasp how ethereal that question is? How far do you want to take that thought? An imminent threat can mean "I'm convinced bad people out there want to hurt us."

It leads to any kind of outrage.

My point, really, is that I see a lot of discussion about torture/not torture in the 3rd person. To really think this thru, I think we need to think, also, in the 1st person.

A lot of wannbe experts are out there pontificating as if this is a thought experiment --and it is very real.

705 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 9:59:56pm

Funny Tweet:

Breaking news: Devil distances himself from Pat Robertson in fear that association might "tarnish my reputation"

706 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:00:04pm

re: #701 windsagio

[Video]

Too bad he turned Scientologist. ):

707 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:00:13pm

re: #699 Racer X

Thats a really terrible justification.

We're not worried about those people specifically, but about the rest of the world, especially the rest of the Islamic world.

/unless you think every moslem in the world hates us for our freedoms...

708 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:01:22pm

re: #699 Racer X

How many of America's enemies think we are OK now that Obama is Prez?

None.

They still hate us. They will hate us no matter what we do or say.

Quite Concur. They'll keep trying to kill us until they either die or get the idea pounded home that they won't win. We have brought some of them around to understanding they can't win though only after they were captured.

709 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:01:33pm

re: #703 keloyd

Not so fast, if the populace is hopelessly backward, illiterate, etc, the case for a ruling elite is stronger. In medieval times, a hereditary monarch was better for the peasant than constant coups and instability. Likewise , in Haiti (or the middle East as Buchanan opined) the little guy was better off with the Duvalier iron fist than one crooked mafia elected leader after another.

It's all about the lesser of 2 evils.

Nope. Duvalier was a monster, he corrupted and destroyed his country. Removing a monster is a good thing.

710 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:01:38pm

re: #692 lrsshadow

No he revoked Bush's Executive Order 13440 of July 20, 2007

Which actually upheld the rights of detainees under Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. So really he struck down that executive order and put his own in saying the same thing nice try though here are the links read the orders

Here is Bush [Link: www.fas.org...]

Here is Obama [Link: www.usatoday.com...]

He overturned the use of the EIT on January 22.
He's also largely kept most Bush policies, in that you are correct, for example, although extraordinary rendition is out, original recipe rendition is just fine with Obama.

711 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:01:58pm

re: #705 Gus 802

Anybody ever think that Pat Robinson might have dementia?

712 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:02:48pm

If you really want to dig out the horror stories on torture, look up some of the folks who were held in Landi Khotal, the guys in gitmo have it fab.

713 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:02:48pm

re: #703 keloyd

Maybe in certain circumstances, but they're pretty rare. I'll try to find the quote, but Lucas at some point also makes the argument that all forms of representative government are doomed to collapse.


If I were to be an evil awful person, I'd say "so Iraq under Saddam was better than the chaos and corruption we have now?" but I don't actually wanna take that point ;)

714 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:02:52pm

re: #703 keloyd

Not so fast, if the populace is hopelessly backward, illiterate, etc, the case for a ruling elite is stronger. In medieval times, a hereditary monarch was better for the peasant than constant coups and instability. Likewise , in Haiti (or the middle East as Buchanan opined) the little guy was better off with the Duvalier iron fist than one crooked mafia elected leader after another.

It's all about the lesser of 2 evils.

So, some people just aren't sophisticated enough for freedom and democracy, huh? I'm sure there were plenty of rubes around in the early days of our country--still are. Somehow we muddle through, though.

715 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:03:07pm

re: #663 SanFranciscoZionist

You are being deliberately obtuse if you think that was an attack on patriotism. And if you think that wrapping up in the flag in response to any political discussion you don't like is 'patriotism', you have a different definition than I.

This thread has included several outright attacks on liberals' patriotism and ability to feel for their country, and it offends me when people say such things.

Your claim that others were questioning your own patriotism by linking a patriotic song is unsupported by what was actually said, and seems a bit thin-skinned for a tough, smart lizard like you.

716 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:03:30pm

re: #709 Bagua

heh I suspect Bagua was predicting the Iraq line ;)

717 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:03:46pm

re: #710 iceweasel

He overturned the use of the EIT on January 22.
He's also largely kept most Bush policies, in that you are correct, for example, although extraordinary rendition is out, original recipe rendition is just fine with Obama.

Original recipe! That's a hoot.

718 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:04:10pm

re: #712 Thanos

If you really want to dig out the horror stories on torture, look up some of the folks who were held in Landi Khotal, the guys in gitmo have it fab.

I don't care if others torture worse. I expect the US to be better.

719 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:04:21pm

re: #710 iceweasel

STill dIdNt rEAd the executive orders yet, please do or provide something else that Obama did in regards to interrogation on the 22nd of January, 2009 other than this executive order

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

720 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:09pm

All I'm gonna say is instead of waterboardinre: #710 iceweasel

He overturned the use of the EIT on January 22.
He's also largely kept most Bush policies, in that you are correct, for example, although extraordinary rendition is out, original recipe rendition is just fine with Obama.

Original recipe rendition, apparently, was also fine with Clinton.

721 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:13pm

Time for me to get some sleeps, g'nite all.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

This song always comes to mind when talking about the grey areas and ugliness

722 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:17pm

re: #718 iceweasel

I don't care if others torture worse. I expect the US to be better.

We are human, just like the rest of the world. To expect us to be anything different is arrogance.

723 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:32pm

re: #720 laZardo

Whoops, PIMF on the partial.

724 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:36pm

re: #718 iceweasel

I didn't say "others".

725 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:05:38pm

oh my god. I got to the end of the thread. My first torture discussion thread at that. Read my dings, I don't have much to add, but I am very very thankful for the discussion.

726 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:06:16pm

re: #711 lrsshadow

Anybody ever think that Pat Robinson Robertson might have dementia?

Didn't want to turn it into a serious discussion but he seemed like his normal self. He's been at it since at least 2001.

727 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:06:36pm

re: #717 Gus 802

Original recipe! That's a hoot.

Heh. You might like Spencer Ackerman's pisstake of it:

My First Rendition, by Barack Obama

When I am president I would like to deal with rendition. What I would like to do to bring change would be to stop the practice of extraordinary rendition whereby we kidnap people who we think are terrorists and take them to foreign countries where they are probably going to be tortured. I would like to return to the practice of ordinary rendition whereby we kidnap people and then take them either back to the U.S. to face trial or to their own country to face trial. I liked when Bill Clinton was president and he did ordinary rendition. Some of my friends tell me that’s a responsible tool to have in the toolbox and I like to be responsible.

Maybe though sometimes being responsible and ordering ordinary renditions will lead to kidnapping people and not feeding them for 30 hours while they are in custody and taking their clothes off and photographing them without their clothes on. And they would be hooded even though Donald Rumsfeld who I don’t like eventually stopped hooding people. And this would be done to someone wanted for questioning in a "case involving inflated invoices" who would end up pleading guilty to "conspiracy to commit bribery" who we flew from Afghanistan to Virginia, and did not have something to do with terrorism. I want to be responsible but I am not sure if this is responsible and if this is change and I believe in change and want you to believe in it too.

728 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:06:49pm

re: #722 ggt

wait, wait. We can't not try!


That argument implies that its okay to let ourselves do awful things.

(you're not saying it outright, but that IS the implication)

I also expect better of my nation.

729 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:07:18pm

re: #720 laZardo

All I'm gonna say is instead of waterboardin

Original recipe rendition, apparently, was also fine with Clinton.

Yep. Think it originated under him, didn't it? I know we did it under Clinton, anyway.

730 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:07:22pm

re: #709 Bagua

Double nope. Candidates in emerging democracies are indistinguishable from mafia. The appearance of choice between 2 monsters doesn't help the average citizen. The Iraqis voting only to empower their warring ethnic factions, for the time being, is not an improvement over a dictator. Tito in Yugoslavia brought about more GDP and rule of law than the "democracy" that shat all over everyone after the place fell apart.

Democracy is not inherently good, though it works for us, for now, and many things work even less well.
/the ghost of Buchanan walks restlessly upon the earth tonight...

731 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:07:30pm

re: #718 iceweasel

I don't care if others torture worse. I expect the US to be better.

And I wish we could be better than we have to be. But sometimes the only way to stop a bunch of monsters is to commit monstrous acts yourself. We have killed children repeatedly in this war, through airstrikes and when they were in vehicles that ran checkpoints. Those were horrible acts, and we had not choice but to commit them.

732 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:07:46pm

re: #674 Dark_Falcon

I like him too. For AGW or evolution, he's terrific. But for debates on enhanced interrogation, he gets very nasty and the thread has a tendency to turn into a flame war.

I was channeling LVQ. C'mere and give me a fist-bump!

733 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:08:14pm

re: #730 keloyd

I disagree with your point, but I admire your courage :D

734 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:08:16pm

re: #566 Gus 802

Beginning on September 11, 2001, 2,973 people were killed as the result of Islamic terrorists.

In the following year and up until this time there have been 4,691 coalition deaths for Operation Iraqi Freedom and 1,587 in AFPAK operations.

Total # US Deaths in World War II military and civilian = 418,500
We didn't torture or waterboard, we prosecuted enemy war criminals on the basis of our own contrasting professional standards and behavior.

According to the AP, 110,600 civilians died in the Iraqi conflict and somewhere in the range of 8,436-28,028* civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

*Includes anti-government elements (Taliban, AQ).

60 million human beings died in WWII.

The number of those injured is more than double. I find it difficult to ponder the moral implications of water boarding under these circumstances especially since we are not the belligerents in this ongoing conflict.

We weren't the belligerents in World War II either, but we kept to our principles.

We faced a far greater, far more capable, existential and determined threat during the Cold War, but we kept to our principles.

I'm going to need more.

735 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:08:38pm

re: #702 Thanos

Jimmah, we've already been there done that. AQ has lots of "chief of operations" There's at least one if not more in every theater they operate in. Z was likely "chief of operations" (recruiting)(transport)(billeting) or whatever in Peshawar.

I understand that but this is what it says:

President George W. Bush described Abu Zubaida in 2002 as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations." Doesn't sound like he is thinking about someone he believes to be a minor, lesser, local chief.

You also have to realize that lying while interrogating someone is a tactic used, and telling someone "we know you're number three" from the "bad cop" and later having the "good cop" tell the same guy "oh no we made a mistake on that" is just another tactic to get the guy to spill info.

I understand that too, but when the President of the country that is after you backs up the charge of being prominent in the organisation with public statements, I think we're in different territory.

736 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:08:56pm

re: #716 windsagio

heh I suspect Bagua was predicting the Iraq line ;)

I almost included it in my comment, but I didn't want to open another can of worms.

The people in Iraq now have hope, they have a chance. Things may go horribly wrong there in the future, but at least they are free of a genocidal maniac who massacred his own people, used real torture, mass graves, the works.

I would not want to spend my life in a prison cell to protect against the fear that some criminal may murder me in the street. Give me a gun, my freedom, and a chance at a better life. Don't tell me I'm better off in the safety of some monsters fascist police state.

737 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:10:10pm

re: #736 Bagua

I think that particular argument is one that we all instinctively shy away from, because its been argued to death with no resolution a million times already in the last 7 years ;)

738 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:10:57pm

re: #735 Jimmah

Well you can think what you want, same challenge to you: if you can convince Roggio or Muquwama that anyone seriously thought Z was number three, you can convince me. Otherwise you have some incinerated straw.

739 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:11:03pm

re: #728 windsagio

wait, wait. We can't not try!

That argument implies that its okay to let ourselves do awful things.

(you're not saying it outright, but that IS the implication)

I also expect better of my nation.

I expect us to try --that is all we can do. But to kick ourselves and feel guilty for not being superhuman is counter-productive.

We have a professional military who is bearing the casualities of the war, and trained to deal the prisoners. Let them do their job and stay out of the way. If the prisoners are treated as political fodder, we aren't helping ourselves or our soldiers at all.

740 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:11:17pm

re: #731 Dark_Falcon

Deeply disagree. Those examples are nothing like indulging in torture.

We should always hold ourselves to the highest possible standards.

741 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:11:35pm

re: #707 windsagio

Thats a really terrible justification.

We're not worried about those people specifically, but about the rest of the world, especially the rest of the Islamic world.

/unless you think every moslem in the world hates us for our freedoms...

Hang on, I'm pulling all your words out of my mouth.

742 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:02pm

re: #730 keloyd

Double nope. Candidates in emerging democracies are indistinguishable from mafia. The appearance of choice between 2 monsters doesn't help the average citizen. The Iraqis voting only to empower their warring ethnic factions, for the time being, is not an improvement over a dictator. Tito in Yugoslavia brought about more GDP and rule of law than the "democracy" that shat all over everyone after the place fell apart.

Democracy is not inherently good, though it works for us, for now, and many things work even less well.
/the ghost of Buchanan walks restlessly upon the earth tonight...

I'm robbing this from someone else I read who said, and I paraphrase, that it is not democracy and elections alone that are necessary. It is liberal democracy that truly gives people their freedoms. Institutions such as freedom of press, religion, and rule of law are necessary prerequisites for freedom. Democracy and elections themselves are not enough.

To that extent, you are correct that democracy itself is not inherently good. But what most people in free countries think of when they talk about democracy should really be described as a liberal democracy.

743 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:08pm

re: #739 ggt

We should absolutely kick ourselves. That's called accountability.


... I should probably tone it back some, but this is something I feel exceptionally strongly about >>

744 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:31pm

re: #734 goddamnedfrank

We weren't the belligerents in World War II either, but we kept to our principles.

We faced a far greater, far more capable, existential and determined threat during the Cold War, but we kept to our principles.

I'm going to need more.

True. However, I don't see much comparison between WWII and now. While we didn't torture or water board then we are not exactly fire bombing urban areas for weeks at a time as we did then. If we apply today's standard then it couldn't done which is thus like applying those standards to today.

As far as the cold war is concerned I won't mention Latin America and Operation Condor.

745 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:43pm

re: #714 BryanS

You state my point exactly. Look at post-colonial British colonies. Some got up and running with local institutions more than others. When all the little people feel a sense of ownership in the system and have a degree of political knowledge, then the thing works. If you have ancient tribal hatreds, your people will vote to kill each other unless a dictator's iron fist holds the factions at bay, like in Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

746 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:55pm

re: #741 Racer X

aw, c'mon, it was behind a sarc tag for a reason :p

747 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:12:59pm

re: #721 Thanos

Time for me to get some sleeps, g'nite all.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

This song always comes to mind when talking about the grey areas and ugliness

Bowie has an odd fascination with America.....

Youtube Video


It's on America's tortured brow
That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
Now the workers have struck for fame
'Cause LENIN's on sale again
See the mice in their million hordes
From Ibiza to the Norfolk Broads
Rule Britannia is out of bounds
To my mother, my dog, and clowns


I'm Afraid of Americans

Youtube Video

Brits in general have a relationship with America that I've never completely understood. Part love, part loathing and much myth. So it goes.

748 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:13:18pm

re: #674 Dark_Falcon

I like him too. For AGW or evolution, he's terrific. But for debates on enhanced interrogation, he gets very nasty and the thread has a tendency to turn into a flame war.

Bull, he is the same on the AGW threads if anyone dares question his infallible wisdom. It is not even possible to discuss that issue here anymore like we are doing this.

749 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:13:36pm

re: #737 windsagio

I think that particular argument is one that we all instinctively shy away from, because its been argued to death with no resolution a million times already in the last 7 years ;)

You were lurking for 7 years? is that a record?

750 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:14:16pm

re: #746 windsagio

aw, c'mon, it was behind a sarc tag for a reason :p

I knew they tasted funny.

;-)

751 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:14:25pm

re: #749 ggt

I think thats longer than the sites been around too! So yes its a record.


I meant in the discourse in general tho' :p

752 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:14:46pm

For the record I consider waterboarding torture, and if it's going to happen it's extraordinary enough that it requires a direct order from the President, nothing less will do, not even a vague memo.

I think some got overzealous due to vague bounds and memos, so it's not like I am arguing against you.

753 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:15:10pm

re: #750 Racer X

its a bad habit. Sometimes I think of these TOTALLY UNFAIR AND AWFUL arguments I could use in a discussion. I just can't let them go, but I also know its dirty pool and ugly to include them... so I try to list them as jokes ;)

754 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:15:18pm

re: #734 goddamnedfrank

We also bombed civilian populations on every front as a strategy to drive the populations to despair in order to weaken their government. Pretty reprehensible behavior by todays standards of war, but I'm pretty glad we did it. We weren't so pure during WWII--ohh, and Japanese internments here in the US wasn't such a shining example of our freedom and moral superiority.

755 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:15:24pm

Ah, have to go again,

If I don't make it back, have a great evening all.

756 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:15:51pm

re: #730 keloyd

Double nope. Candidates in emerging democracies are indistinguishable from mafia. The appearance of choice between 2 monsters doesn't help the average citizen. The Iraqis voting only to empower their warring ethnic factions, for the time being, is not an improvement over a dictator. Tito in Yugoslavia brought about more GDP and rule of law than the "democracy" that shat all over everyone after the place fell apart.

Democracy is not inherently good, though it works for us, for now, and many things work even less well.
/the ghost of Buchanan walks restlessly upon the earth tonight...

Too simplistic for me, and cherry picked examples. Tyranny is evil, period. I chose freedom.

757 palomino  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:16:07pm

re: #734 goddamnedfrank

Right. We're not just fighting in order to win; we're fighting to advance certain principles our enemies reject. It's simply not consistent to avoid any of these principles while fighting to advance them.

We've rightly claimed the moral high ground and have to maintain it, regardless of whether radical Muslims still hate us.

758 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:16:41pm

re: #747 Killgore Trout

2 excellent songs! I often think the US must be this totally bizarre entity to the Brits in some ways. So culturally dominant and... well weird >>

Afraid of Americans sums up the idea I'm thinking of perfectly.

"God is an American", indeed!


(also, the video is awesome. Go Trent!)

759 laZardo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:16:47pm

Brb, lunch.

760 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:17:48pm
Lakers Win 3,000th Game

The Lakers became the first franchise in NBA history to reach 3,000 wins after a tough win in Dallas on Wednesday night.

Yeah Baby!

761 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:18:20pm

North American Scum

Youtube Video
762 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:19:14pm

re: #748 Bagua

Bull, he is the same on the AGW threads if anyone dares question his infallible wisdom. It is not even possible to discuss that issue here anymore like we are doing this.

I hear you, Bagua, but I find it very hard to give up on anyone like that. I've been saved too often by people who could have given up on me to do that.

763 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:19:15pm

re: #759 laZardo

Brb, lunch.


re: #683 laZardo

Brb, lunch.

Again? You must eat a lot!

764 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:19:49pm

Ah, but tyranny exists in democratic countries as well, and freedom is at risk in even the best democracies. Democracies have allowed slavery and apartheid. Some do to this day

I'm getting too tired to give this the proper treatment. That stuff BryanS wrote in our little subthread - I think what he says, mostly. Go read that, he's more coherent than I am this late.

765 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:19:58pm

re: #758 windsagio

The Afraid of Americans video if anyone hasn't seen it. Truly great!

Youtube Video
766 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:19:58pm

re: #698 ggt

I think the meaning of imminent is precise.

I understand, but in my own, probably misguided, opinion, Al Queda (the original entity AKA "The Tower" or "The Fort" or, as we would call it in the west, "The Castle Keep"), has morphed into Al Queda Inc. It is a distributed terrorist network that has distinct cells loosely associated through the internet. Dogma comes from on high, but operations are locally grown sin.

The NWA poo-bomber is a good example. Do you really think that if OBL was captured in early December, he would have had tactical info on when a Nigerian national would board a plane to Detroit with a wad of explosives in his tighty whities? No way. He might have said while numerous volts were pulsed through his body body by a crank telephone and two cunningly placed electrodes that he had heard of an operation originating out of Yemen.

Anti-terrorism operations that involve the US and the West must be addressed by information coordination and good old fashioned police work.

767 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:20:29pm

re: #761 Killgore Trout

North American Scum


[Video]

Dig it!

768 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:20:59pm

re: #704 ggt

My point, really, is that I see a lot of discussion about torture/not torture in the 3rd person. To really think this thru, I think we need to think, also, in the 1st person.

A lot of wannbe experts are out there pontificating as if this is a thought experiment --and it is very real.

Agreed!

769 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:21:05pm

re: #767 Racer X

It is a very catchy song.

770 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:21:27pm

re: #744 Gus 802

Wow hold on now, we have and did do a whole lot of torture in all the Wars the US has fought. The last wars in Afghanistan and Iraq had virtually no torture by the US at all. Think about it Abu Garab is about the biggest thing and usually the only thing any one can come up with, did any body loose their life, a limb, brake a bone, or require hospitalization? No.

Vietnam, Korea, WW2, WW1, etc, you really think we didn't torture, and I mean really torture a few prisoners of war and especially spies? We did, a lot, but back then people kept the bad business to themselves. You can watch what they did to the Japanese in the water durring WW2, they shot them. They even have movies of it on the History Channel, even today no one cares. But god for bid some prisoner has to stand for 40 hours or stay naked in a cold cell, or be yelled at, it is the worst thing ever.

771 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:21:32pm

re: #738 Thanos

Well you can think what you want, same challenge to you: if you can convince Roggio or Muquwama that anyone seriously thought Z was number three, you can convince me. Otherwise you have some incinerated straw.

The evidence is there. One can always choose to believe that no one really meant what they are quoted or reported as saying, but I'd say the burden was on them to prove that, not merely to suggest it as a plausible scenario.

772 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:21:50pm

re: #745 keloyd

You state my point exactly. Look at post-colonial British colonies. Some got up and running with local institutions more than others. When all the little people feel a sense of ownership in the system and have a degree of political knowledge, then the thing works. If you have ancient tribal hatreds, your people will vote to kill each other unless a dictator's iron fist holds the factions at bay, like in Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

Well, the post I replied to I agreed with the last point. I wouldn't call communist Yugoslavia a success any more than I'd call USSR a success while they existed.

I part ways with you when it gets to the "little people" aren't suited for it argument. You cite Great Britian, but adding to your Yugoslavia and Rwanda examples, I would think Ireland would be a fitting additional example, no?

773 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:22:13pm

re: #770 lrsshadow

Jesus! That is like the worst justification ever.

774 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:22:38pm

re: #761 Killgore Trout

yeah good song, sounds some like Louis XIV to me (or maybe vice versa >>)

775 avanti  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:22:44pm

More Pakistan missile strikes.

link.

776 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:24:38pm

re: #770 lrsshadow

I didn't say that. But, I can't bring up unofficial events since there's no evidence. Vietnam is also a different story. It's like this really:

WWI ≠ WWII ≠ Korea ≠ Vietnam, etc.

777 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:24:42pm

re: #770 lrsshadow

ok, I should go a bit further.

Theres a far difference between 'no torture happened' and 'a policy of torture'.

Find me the US torture policy for WW2 or Korea beyond "Don't do it."

Even if your point was at all relevant, it wouldn't be good, because having done it doesn't make it right, or appropriate.

778 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:24:49pm

re: #773 windsagio

lol thanks I was just trying to point out that we don't have the cleanest record, and it should be taken to note our current issue and how things were handled in the past to get a true measuring stick of the amount of progress.

779 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:25:20pm

Apollo 440 - ain't talkin' 'bout dub (live)

Youtube Video
780 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:25:23pm

re: #778 lrsshadow

see my 777.

781 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:26:19pm

re: #777 windsagio

ok, I should go a bit further.

Theres a far difference between 'no torture happened' and 'a policy of torture'.

Find me the US torture policy for WW2 or Korea beyond "Don't do it."

Even if your point was at all relevant, it wouldn't be good, because having done it doesn't make it right, or appropriate.

Find me one from the Bush Admin, a link would be nice, I haven't seen one yet. There has been no authorization of torture, unless you consider the interrogation techniques that Obama has enacted as torture.

782 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:27:22pm

re: #769 Killgore Trout

It is a very catchy song.

I like it. This one too.

LCD Soundsystem - Tribulations

Youtube Video
783 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:28:01pm

re: #781 lrsshadow

Thats what we've been talking about this whole thread.

I mean c'mon. If you're going to take the position that waterboarding and Abu Ghraib type things aren't torture, then theres simply no point.

784 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:28:10pm

re: #770 lrsshadow

Wow hold on now, we have and did do a whole lot of torture in all the Wars the US has fought. The last wars in Afghanistan and Iraq had virtually no torture by the US at all. Think about it Abu Garab is about the biggest thing and usually the only thing any one can come up with, did any body loose their life, a limb, brake a bone, or require hospitalization? No.

Vietnam, Korea, WW2, WW1, etc, you really think we didn't torture, and I mean really torture a few prisoners of war and especially spies? We did, a lot, but back then people kept the bad business to themselves. You can watch what they did to the Japanese in the water durring WW2, they shot them. They even have movies of it on the History Channel, even today no one cares. But god for bid some prisoner has to stand for 40 hours or stay naked in a cold cell, or be yelled at, it is the worst thing ever.

Actually, several dozen prisoners were tortured to death. You need to disabuse yourself of the false knowledge that all was goodness and light. We didn't cut their heads off, but they are dead all the same.

785 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:28:36pm

re: #779 Jimmah

re: #782 Racer X

I love it when we get to the music time of night.

786 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:29:10pm

re: #348 Rightwingconspirator

Obama does not need to cover for GWB. Under the new President's watch, we rolled back the allowable interrogation methods. Unless I misunderstood?

Yes, we did, but the point I wanted to make is that there's a whole lot of stuff we're stil doing under Obama. Obama isn't at all interested in having some witchhunt to lock up Bush, Cheney, Yoo, et al. For one thing it'd open the door to prosecutions involving himself and his staff in the future.
The only prosecutions we're seeing are the ones Holder announced back in June I think it was, and they're extremely narrow in focus. A few lowlevel operatives and lawyers will take the fall.
And they were announced on a Monday at a noon press conference, entirely because the ACLU had won a court case on the previous Friday which forced the disclosure of a CIA OLC report from 2004. Asscovering, all of it.

787 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:29:27pm

re: #715 Spare O'Lake

Your claim that others were questioning your own patriotism by linking a patriotic song is unsupported by what was actually said, and seems a bit thin-skinned for a tough, smart lizard like you.

Why do you think Mandy keeps doing this?

788 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:29:28pm

re: #781 lrsshadow

Find me one from the Bush Admin, a link would be nice, I haven't seen one yet. There has been no authorization of torture, unless you consider the interrogation techniques that Obama has enacted as torture.

What? That's what the John Yoo memos were all about. It was to find a legal, Constitutional ground for allowing water boarding. The Bush administration wanted to have a legal basis for it. Regardless how one feels about water boarding.

789 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:30:26pm

re: #781 lrsshadow

Find me one from the Bush Admin, a link would be nice, I haven't seen one yet. There has been no authorization of torture, unless you consider the interrogation techniques that Obama has enacted as torture.

Wow. Cognitive disconnect. Big time. Everything in that post is totally BS.

If that was your point, well played!

790 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:30:30pm

re: #784 austin_blue

Actually, several dozen prisoners were tortured to death. You need to disabuse yourself of the false knowledge that all was goodness and light. We didn't cut their heads off, but they are dead all the same.

In Vietnam it involved either a Jeep or a "ride" in a chopper.

791 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:30:34pm

re: #722 ggt

We are human, just like the rest of the world. To expect us to be anything different is arrogance.

We are supposed to be a city on a hill. Even if we don't make it, we have to try.

792 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:31:55pm

re: #779 Jimmah

Apollo 440 - ain't talkin' 'bout dub (live)


[Video]

I really enjoy your taste in music. You have no idea how much that annoys me.

;-)

793 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:32:05pm

re: #783 windsagio

Abu Garab WAS NOT POLICY sorry, it just gets so old, and water boarding, please find me the memo that authorized water boarding please.

794 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:33:13pm

re: #787 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do you think Mandy keeps doing this?

Looking at the thread, it did lead unnecessarily toward insinuation of lack of patriotism. Mandy lead it there. I can understand the downdings form the context.

795 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:33:14pm

re: #793 lrsshadow

Lordy, lordy lordy.


I think you're the first person I'm actually giving up on as hopeless. You're now arguing against the entire point of the thread.

796 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:33:25pm

re: #793 lrsshadow

Abu Garab WAS NOT POLICY sorry, it just gets so old, and water boarding, please find me the memo that authorized water boarding please.

What do you mean? John Yoo wrote a book about it. That's what he was justifying on the video.

797 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:34:16pm

re: #794 BryanS

and theres a pattern of that.


(on a sidenote, I know theres some page that shows whose online and who isn't, how do I find that? I've wanted to know for months)

798 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:34:55pm

re: #790 Gus 802

In Vietnam it involved either a Jeep or a "ride" in a chopper.

And it worked. If you threw one prisoner out of a helicopter, the others because much more willing to talk. Extreme torture does not work, but instilling terror does work.

799 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:35:19pm

re: #798 Dark_Falcon

It was also deeply, deeply illegal >>

800 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:35:21pm

re: #797 windsagio

and theres a pattern of that.

(on a sidenote, I know theres some page that shows whose online and who isn't, how do I find that? I've wanted to know for months)

Very bottom of the page--a button labeled show users. It's just a hair above the bottom of the page banner ad.

801 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:35:52pm

Is this it?

[Link: news.findlaw.com...]

Not vetted by me.

802 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:36:18pm

re: #790 Gus 802

In Vietnam it involved either a Jeep or a "ride" in a chopper.

Two in the chopper. One left by way of gravity, the other talked, or left by way of gravity. Still reprehensible.

Oh, and we ended up losing that one by the way. They didn't mind dying for their beliefs. Pretty good object lesson. Torture didn't work in the long run, eh?

803 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:36:39pm

re: #792 Racer X

I'm trying to think of something obscure enough I can post so I can put up some music and also maintain some level of street cred >

804 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:37:04pm

re: #800 BryanS

awesome, thanks!

805 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:37:33pm

Nolan's Cheddar

Youtube Video

I posted this last nite, but it really cracks me up.

806 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:37:45pm

re: #802 austin_blue

Two in the chopper. One left by way of gravity, the other talked, or left by way of gravity. Still reprehensible.

Oh, and we ended up losing that one by the way. They didn't mind dying for their beliefs. Pretty good object lesson. Torture didn't work in the long run, eh?

Yeah. Vietnam was a strange way to run a war.

807 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:39:19pm

re: #766 austin_blue

Yemen is an active terrorist base, this was not some random Nigerian out on a whim, this was planned by AQ terrorists, apparently two of whom we actually had in custody in Gitmo.

808 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:40:39pm

Gorillaz; All Alone

Youtube Video
809 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:41:08pm

re: #802 austin_blue

Two in the chopper. One left by way of gravity, the other talked, or left by way of gravity. Still reprehensible.

Oh, and we ended up losing that one by the way. They didn't mind dying for their beliefs. Pretty good object lesson. Torture didn't work in the long run, eh?

We did not lose that one through force of arms, we won against the VC and then abandoned the country to a conventional attack from the NVA.

810 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:42:20pm

re: #802 austin_blue

Two in the chopper. One left by way of gravity, the other talked, or left by way of gravity. Still reprehensible.

Oh, and we ended up losing that one by the way. They didn't mind dying for their beliefs. Pretty good object lesson. Torture didn't work in the long run, eh?

It would have worked if we'd fought smarter and been more realistic about how well we were doing. Haiphong Harbor should have been mined in 1965, not later in 1972. Heavy raids on Hanoi should have begun at the same time. We should have gone full force straightway, and kept up the pressure. Bereft of reinforcements and supplies, the Communist forces in the South could have then been destroyed utterly.

811 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:42:33pm

re: #792 Racer X

I really enjoy your taste in music. You have no idea how much that annoys me.

;-)

Who knows...maybe this will make you feel better, somehow...;-)

Youtube Video
812 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:42:37pm

re: #809 Bagua

Viet Nam (I kinda like the old spelling) was an object lesson in what happens if you get into a war supporting a corrupt, illegitimate government. We were doomed to either be there forever, or to eventually lose whenever we left.

813 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:42:43pm

re: #808 windsagio

Gorillaz; All Alone


[Video]

Well played!

Nice.

814 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:43:51pm

re: #787 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do you think Mandy keeps doing this?

She feels strongly about her positions, just like you and I, her way of communicating is different.

815 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:43:51pm

re: #806 Gus 802

Yeah. Vietnam was a strange way to run a war.

In the long run, they *wanted* it more than we did. They were never going to stop, no matter their losses. There's a book called

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

That is a must read for anyone who really wants to understand the dynamic of that conflict. My Da got his Legion of Merit (combat V) for running his F-4 squadron out of Chu Lai. They got a PUC for their effort.

816 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:44:51pm

re: #814 Bagua

at risk of speaking ill of someone who can't defend themselves, some of us simply don't have deeply disfunctional ways of expressing ourselves.

817 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:45:13pm

re: #813 Racer X

:D Thank you for making me feel welcome. Now you have to deal with music link spam!!!

818 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:46:03pm

re: #815 austin_blue

In the long run, they *wanted* it more than we did. They were never going to stop, no matter their losses. There's a book called

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

That is a must read for anyone who really wants to understand the dynamic of that conflict. My Da got his Legion of Merit (combat V) for running his F-4 squadron out of Chu Lai. They got a PUC for their effort.

Your dad flew a Rhino? Wild Weasels?

819 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:46:16pm

re: #795 windsagio

Oh I thought the whole point was policy, I thought we were talking policy, why am I the only person who is actually refering to Army Manuals, Executive Orders, Transcripts, Memos, etc. ug..... ok what do you want me to say, Abu Garab is bad, it is bad that a bunch of low level dip sh** idiots took it on themselves to abuse prisoners of war. They were court martial-ed and thrown in prison for what they did. Huh doesn't sound like policy to me if they broke the Uniform Code of Military Justice as approved by the US Congress.

This whole debate has never been about torture, it is about what is and is not considered torture, and that policy is approved by the Current President under Executive order as I have linked many times which authorizes the interrogation techniques under Army FM 2-22-3.

There is no document that anyone has produced to me which authorizes any technique beyound those specifically authorized under Pres Obama Executive Order [Link: www.usatoday.com...] Which even gives authorization for military techniques to be used by the following part of the executive order under SEC 3 c

"....From this day forward, unless the Attorney General with appropriate consultation provides further guidance, officers, employees, and other agents of the United States Government may, in conducting interrogations, act in reliance upon Army Field Manual 2 22.3.."

So Really Obama has provide greater enhanced interrogation techniques to everyone who works in that capacity.

820 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:46:18pm

re: #807 Bagua

Yemen is an active terrorist base, this was not some random Nigerian out on a whim, this was planned by AQ terrorists, apparently two of whom we actually had in custody in Gitmo.

Maybe, but again, AQ, Inc. is now a distributed system, almost like KFC franchises. The military is hopeless in chasing these assholes down. It's police work.

821 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:47:05pm

re: #810 Dark_Falcon

It would have worked if we'd fought smarter and been more realistic about how well we were doing. Haiphong Harbor should have been mined in 1965, not later in 1972. Heavy raids on Hanoi should have begun at the same time. We should have gone full force straightway, and kept up the pressure. Bereft of reinforcements and supplies, the Communist forces in the South could have then been destroyed utterly.

Sorry. Never would have worked. Read the book.

822 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:47:54pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Your dad flew a Rhino? Wild Weasels?

Marine F-4s. Black Knights.

823 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:48:30pm

re: #811 Jimmah

Damn. You had to break out Lena Lovich. What have I got. . . . *looks around* . . .

The Runaways - Cherry Bomb

Youtube Video
824 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:49:09pm

re: #821 austin_blue

Which one?

Fog of War wasn't a book, but was an excellent treatment of the subject.

825 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:49:37pm

re: #812 windsagio

Viet Nam (I kinda like the old spelling) was an object lesson in what happens if you get into a war supporting a corrupt, illegitimate government. We were doomed to either be there forever, or to eventually lose whenever we left.

Beg to differ, the VC played no part in the final battle when the NVA rolled in with conventional troops. We simply allowed it to happen. How the situation would have developed is speculation, the hundreds of thousands who fled or perished as a result of the American change of heart is well documented and compelling.

The entire history has been rephrased to suit the Liberal Media and Leftist agenda and become a slogan bank. It makes me sick and we are still paying the price now.

826 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:49:45pm

re: #792 Racer X

I really enjoy your taste in music. You have no idea how much that annoys me.

;-)

Hey, I missed your comment earlier about "MOM! Someone is wrong on the internet!"
Made me laugh. Updinged. Thanks.

827 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:50:12pm

re: #817 windsagio

:D Thank you for making me feel welcome. Now you have to deal with music link spam!!!

One thing we can always agree on is music.

OK, maybe not always.

828 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:51:09pm

re: #811 Jimmah

re: #823 Racer X

I went the opposite way. Nina Hagen > Klaus Nomi

Youtube Video
829 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:51:13pm

re: #824 windsagio

Which one?

Fog of War wasn't a book, but was an excellent treatment of the subject.

There's a book called

[Link: [Link: www.amazon.com...]...]

830 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:52:06pm

re: #826 iceweasel

Hey, I missed your comment earlier about "MOM! Someone is wrong on the internet!"
Made me laugh. Updinged. Thanks.

You're welcome. Sometimes things get taken too seriously around here - by me too. Its good to relax, chill, and laugh.

831 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:52:09pm

re: #825 Bagua

Hows this. There wasn't a forseeable scenario in which South Viet Nam could fight off the NVA.


.... Wait, are we arguing about the freakin' Vietnam war?!!

832 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:52:45pm

re: #829 austin_blue

bad link :(

I'm curious too!

833 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:52:51pm

1,000 comments before the open thread?

834 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:53:21pm

re: #825 Bagua

And many would also say the the NVA set the VC up in Tet; The NVA thought well best case we really mess up the Americans, best case senerio they get ride of the VC and win the political battle even though the Tet Offensive decimated the VC with tens of thousands dead. After that the VC never had much of a political stake in the politics in Hanoi. Like you said after we left the NVA just invaded the south.

835 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:53:40pm

re: #828 windsagio

OK, that one is just freaky.

836 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:53:41pm

re: #833 Killgore Trout

you know, its amazing. We went from basicly wanting to scratch each others eyes out 2 hours ago, to alot of fun now (well except for the torture apologist ;) )

837 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:53:41pm

re: #825 Bagua

Beg to differ, the VC played no part in the final battle when the NVA rolled in with conventional troops. We simply allowed it to happen. How the situation would have developed is speculation, the hundreds of thousands who fled or perished as a result of the American change of heart is well documented and compelling.

The entire history has been rephrased to suit the Liberal Media and Leftist agenda and become a slogan bank. It makes me sick and we are still paying the price now.

Nah, it was a hopeless deal for us from the beginning. Here:

There's a book called

[Link: [Link: www.amazon.com...]...]

838 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:54:01pm

re: #837 austin_blue

haha just say the name >>

839 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:54:06pm

I'm out for the night.

840 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:54:08pm

re: #822 austin_blue

Marine F-4s. Black Knights.

Ah. Thought he might have been USAF as you. I grew up lusting over the Phantom. One of my clients of a few years ago flew an A-4 for the USMC in Vietnam. Actually trained with the USAF.

841 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:54:23pm

re: #835 Racer X

Guy was a freakin' lunatic. Dead of AIDS now, I think.

842 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:54:58pm

re: #820 austin_blue

Maybe, but again, AQ, Inc. is now a distributed system, almost like KFC franchises. The military is hopeless in chasing these assholes down. It's police work.

That is part of the picture, but not the whole one. There is work for the police, military, intelligence, allies, and on and on. We really have no idea what is next and what we will have to do. Nor do we know if we will be able to gains security, ever, or at what cost. But no, the military is not hopeless, they have done some sterling work in the most challenging of situations. Many terrorists have been defanged.

843 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:55:18pm

re: #814 Bagua

She feels strongly about her positions, just like you and I, her way of communicating is different.

Great. Tonight I wasn't up for her behavior.

844 lrsshadow  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:56:01pm

re: #837 austin_blue

Don't forget who got us in the damn mess, the greasy French who wanted another colony so they could feel good after getting their ass kicked by the Germans twice in less three decades.

845 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:56:11pm

re: #832 windsagio

bad link :(

I'm curious too!

Aargh! Freakin internet...

Here's the name:

Patriots: The Vietnam War Remembered from All Sides

846 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:57:19pm

re: #844 lrsshadow

For the record, The french were on the winning side in both those wars, and did almost all the Heavy lifting in WW1.

Also, kicked the Germans asses in the Napoleonic wars (well until the end).

847 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:57:21pm

re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist

Great. Tonight I wasn't up for her behavior.

We all get a bit crabby at times.

848 Tigger2005  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:57:41pm

Can anyone give me a link to a page that effectively debunks those who make statements like, "CO2 from human industrial activity is not harmful (and in fact is good for the environment) because it's the 'same' CO2 that plant life depends on"?

849 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:57:56pm

re: #787 SanFranciscoZionist

Imbedding links to songs is still very common at LGF, and doesn't bother me one little bit. If a linked song is not to my taste I just move past it without listening to it and ignore it.
But by all means go ahead and keep picking at the scab if that is what you feel a need to do.

850 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:58:09pm

re: #842 Bagua

That is part of the picture, but not the whole one. There is work for the police, military, intelligence, allies, and on and on. We really have no idea what is next and what we will have to do. Nor do we know if we will be able to gains security, ever, or at what cost. But no, the military is not hopeless, they have done some sterling work in the most challenging of situations. Many terrorists have been defanged.

Found an interesting article the other day -- analysis/opinon on global vs local jihad, and the difficulty of measuring success in what is a wholly different kind of war. Take away from the end:

Al Qaeda’s altered design has a number of immediate consequences. The global jihad is losing what David Galula called a strong cause, and with it its political character. This change is making it increasingly difficult to distinguish jihad from organized crime on the one side and rudderless fanaticism on the other. This calls into question the notion that war is still, as Clausewitz said, “a continuation of politics by other means,” and therefore whether it can be discontinued politically. Second, coerced by adversaries and enabled by the Internet, the global jihadi movement has dismantled and disrupted its own ability to act as one coherent entity. No leader is in a position to articulate the movement’s will, let alone enforce it. It is doubtful, to quote Clausewitz again, whether war can still be “an act of force to compel the enemy to do our will.” And because jihad has no single center of gravity, it has no single critical vulnerability. No matter what the outcome of U.S.-led operations in Afghanistan and other places, a general risk of terrorist attacks will persist for the foreseeable future.

In combating terrorism, therefore, quantity matters as much as quality. But some numbers matter more than others. How many additional American and European troops are sent to Afghanistan matters less than the number of terrorist plots that don’t happen. Success will be found subtly in statistics, in data curves that slope down or level off, not in one particular action, one capitulation, or even one leader’s death. It will be marked not by military campaigns and other events but by decisions not taken and attacks not launched. Because participation in the holy war in both its local and global forms is an individual decision, these choices have to be the unit of analysis, and influencing them must be the goal of policy and strategy. As in crime prevention, measuring success—how many potential terrorists did not join an armed group or commit a terrorist act—is nearly impossible. Success against Islamic militancy may wear a veil.



Cracks in the Jihad

851 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:58:43pm

re: #841 windsagio

Guy was a freakin' lunatic. Dead of AIDS now, I think.

No one touches Laurie Anderson when it comes to performance art music. I thought Home of the Brave was just freaking awesome when I first saw it on PBS about a hundred years ago. I think I blew the speakers out on my TV that night.

LAURIE ANDERSON - EXCELLENT BIRDS

Youtube Video
852 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:59:07pm

re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist

Great. Tonight I wasn't up for her behavior.

You weren't, and aren't, alone.

853 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 10:59:33pm

re: #837 austin_blue

Nah, it was a hopeless deal for us from the beginning. Here:

There's a book called

[Link: [Link: www.amazon.com...]...]

It is hopeless if I need to read that book, the link is dead.

854 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:00:21pm

re: #845 austin_blue

Aargh! Freakin internet...

Here's the name:

Patriots: The Vietnam War Remembered from All Sides

I've read We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, The Things They Carried, and some other book of mixed personal accounts. Oh, another one was
Combat Corpsman: The Vietnam Memoir Of A Navy Seals Medic. That's regarding Vietnam. Most of the others I've read have been WWII exclusively -- a lot of Ambrose.

855 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:00:39pm

re: #849 Spare O'Lake

re: #852 iceweasel

not to get off on a rant, but.

You shouldn't be. Its terrible behavior, and the atmosphere of the blog would be far better if that kind of rhetorical nonsense wasn't indulged in.

856 keloyd  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:01:27pm

re: #772 BryanS
I think we nearly agree. Any culture or people from the Koi San of Southern Africa, to Sunni Arab Muslims, to Australian Aborigines, even the Irish are capable of democratic self government, and are better off for it most of the time. However, democracy (including representative republics, and other variations on the theme) works well when other factors in society are in order.

It also works better in some circumstances than others. It is always less nimble than an absolute dictatorship, and sometimes you need to be nimble in emergencies. Look at government during a hurricane here in teh US. We have a military dictatorship for the week or so, in the region in big trouble, and that's the right thing to do. The best form of government is the result of a multi-variable equation. I cannot write it down, but the answer is not always 'democracy,' though it may be in times of peace and prosperity that allow for growth of institutions, culture, etc.

BTW, my favorite video game is Civilization.

857 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:01:51pm

re: #851 Racer X

Thats pretty cool, less 'in your face' than the stuff I tend to think of as performance art music:

IE:

Youtube Video
858 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:02:12pm

re: #846 windsagio

For the record, The french were on the winning side in both those wars, and did almost all the Heavy lifting in WW1.

Also, kicked the Germans asses in the Napoleonic wars (well until the end).

Indeed. Even as late as 1814, Napoleon crushed German armies. much of that was due to better leadership and organization. Napoleon built up a team and a system that was very hard to beat.

859 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:02:15pm

re: #282 MandyManners

Good to know that you actually researched this issue after I put it to you, Cato.

I didn't research it, I made a claim which I knew was true. Thanks be to Google.

Everyone with eyes to see and ears to hear has known about Haïti's status as a wholly-owned US corporate sweatshop for decades. Did you never read about Papa and Baby Doc's Diktatur, or did you think it was just Cuban propaganda?

Sheesh.

860 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:02:48pm

re: #823 Racer X

Damn. You had to break out Lena Lovich. What have I got. . . . *looks around* . . .

The Runaways - Cherry Bomb

[Video]

This, by way of massive escalation: The Clash - Daddy Was A Bank Robber. I'll say no more...

Youtube Video
861 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:03:12pm

re: #856 keloyd

Alpha Centauri was the best Civ-style game. Utterly brilliant.

862 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:03:24pm

re: #744 Gus 802

True. However, I don't see much comparison between WWII and now.

Here, let me show you. That was the absolute high mark on the reservoir of international good will accumulated by the US over decades since WWII. Most of that goodwill burned up in a few short years in large part because our leadership began to actively undermine those principles we had always stood for.

While we didn't torture or water board then we are not exactly fire bombing urban areas for weeks at a time as we did then. If we apply today's standard then it couldn't done which is thus like applying those standards to today.

Ah, I see, the fact that indiscriminate aerial slaughter is not particularly conducive towards defeating a modern insurgency allows some kind of pass on previously established national principles?

re: #798 Dark_Falcon

And it worked. If you threw one prisoner out of a helicopter, the others because much more willing to talk. Extreme torture does not work, but instilling terror does work.

Apparently Ugandan witch doctors say the same thing about child sacrifice producing tangible benefits, both assertions seem equally unlikely to me.

863 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:04:00pm

re: #860 Jimmah

That's like watching 'I am the walrus' on speed and acid at the same time >>

864 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:04:01pm

re: #857 windsagio


What? No Mark of the Mole? No Residents?

(I think Opera on my 5 year old Tablet PC runs BETTER than Firefox on my modern dual core laptop. What in the hell!)

865 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:04:04pm

re: #856 keloyd

I think we nearly agree. Any culture or people from the Koi San of Southern Africa, to Sunni Arab Muslims, to Australian Aborigines, even the Irish are capable of democratic self government, and are better off for it most of the time. However, democracy (including representative republics, and other variations on the theme) works well when other factors in society are in order.

It also works better in some circumstances than others. It is always less nimble than an absolute dictatorship, and sometimes you need to be nimble in emergencies. Look at government during a hurricane here in teh US. We have a military dictatorship for the week or so, in the region in big trouble, and that's the right thing to do. The best form of government is the result of a multi-variable equation. I cannot write it down, but the answer is not always 'democracy,' though it may be in times of peace and prosperity that allow for growth of institutions, culture, etc.

BTW, my favorite video game is Civilization.

I love that game too. It's a true classic, and just plain awesome.

866 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:04:16pm

re: #840 Gus 802

Ah. Thought he might have been USAF as you. I grew up lusting over the Phantom. One of my clients of a few years ago flew an A-4 for the USMC in Vietnam. Actually trained with the USAF.

The Phantom was an amazing bird. Da told his maintenance officer to take the outboard drop tanks off and see if he could trick fuck two additional 6X bomb racks out there. He could, and they did, and the Superbomber was born. It had 24, 500 pound bombs loaded up. Range was limited, but a lot of their work was in close support in the Au Shau valley and they didn't need the range.

Did the trick.

867 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:04:42pm

re: #861 windsagio

Alpha Centauri was the best Civ-style game. Utterly brilliant.

Alpha Centauri is a perfect game. It is as close to flawless a computer game as I can conceive of.

868 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:05:07pm

re: #852 iceweasel

You weren't, and aren't, alone.

Iceweasel my friend, you come across as gunning for Mandy, not without cause, but it has the appearance of vendetta.

re: #855 windsagio

re: #852 iceweasel

not to get off on a rant, but.

You shouldn't be. Its terrible behavior, and the atmosphere of the blog would be far better if that kind of rhetorical nonsense wasn't indulged in.

Disagree. I do not approve of rudeness or profanity, but I rate some of the attack behaviour I see as worse.

869 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:05:50pm

re: #864 WindUpBird

ok you're right, that MUST BE FIXED!

The Residents are the best band nobody actually likes to listen to!

Youtube Video
870 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:07:30pm

re: #859 Cato the Elder

I didn't research it, I made a claim which I knew was true. Thanks be to Google.

Everyone with eyes to see and ears to hear has known about Haïti's status as a wholly-owned US corporate sweatshop for decades. Did you never read about Papa and Baby Doc's Diktatur, or did you think it was just Cuban propaganda?

Sheesh.

Absolutely undeniable, and worse behaviour in the preceding century or so on top of that.

Splendid to have you back Cato, are you out on leave or have they released you?

871 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:08:17pm

re: #868 Bagua

Iceweasel my friend, you come across as gunning for Mandy, not without cause, but it has the appearance of vendetta.

Search my comments and you'll find me vigorously defending Mandy two (or so) days ago.
I reserve the right to call out behaviour I don't like, and I try to be equally vigorous in giving credit where and when credit is due.

872 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:08:25pm

re: #860 Jimmah

Weird.

My favorite Clash:

The Clash - Straight To Hell

Youtube Video
873 BryanS  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:08:27pm

re: #856 keloyd

I think we nearly agree. Any culture or people from the Koi San of Southern Africa, to Sunni Arab Muslims, to Australian Aborigines, even the Irish are capable of democratic self government, and are better off for it most of the time. However, democracy (including representative republics, and other variations on the theme) works well when other factors in society are in order.

It also works better in some circumstances than others. It is always less nimble than an absolute dictatorship, and sometimes you need to be nimble in emergencies. Look at government during a hurricane here in teh US. We have a military dictatorship for the week or so, in the region in big trouble, and that's the right thing to do. The best form of government is the result of a multi-variable equation. I cannot write it down, but the answer is not always 'democracy,' though it may be in times of peace and prosperity that allow for growth of institutions, culture, etc.

BTW, my favorite video game is Civilization.


Agree with bolded part especially. "Even the Irish" ... heh :)

If China ever gets a liberal democracy, one could imagine it happening without collapsing the system. They've started liberalizing the economy, started establishing rule of law. While there is still work in those two areas, they are a couple steps ahead of the Soviets when they collapses.

Also agreed on Civilization being a great game.

I too am starting to doze off. Have a good evening.

874 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:09:38pm

re: #851 Racer X

No one touches Laurie Anderson when it comes to performance art music. I thought Home of the Brave was just freaking awesome when I first saw it on PBS about a hundred years ago. I think I blew the speakers out on my TV that night.

LAURIE ANDERSON - EXCELLENT BIRDS


[Video]

Oh, man, this is one of the bonuses of this board. You think you know somebody, and it turns out that Racer X is a fellow LA freak.

Que es mas macho?

875 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:09:59pm

re: #855 windsagio

There you go again...

876 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:10:45pm

re: #851 Racer X

Now I want to see Laurie Anderson and Skinny Puppy on the same stage.

877 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:10:56pm

re: #870 Bagua

Absolutely undeniable, and worse behaviour in the preceding century or so on top of that.

Splendid to have you back Cato, are you out on leave or have they released you?

Let go early for bad behavior.

878 Racer X  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:11:14pm

re: #874 austin_blue

Oh, man, this is one of the bonuses of this board. You think you know somebody, and it turns out that Racer X is a fellow LA freak.

Que es mas macho?

Heh.

I am truly an enigma wrapped around a Carne Asada Burrito.

879 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:11:37pm

re: #408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Down-dings?

Seriously?

that song blows.

880 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:12:02pm

re: #875 Spare O'Lake

lol. I'm picturing the Reagan voice.

I stick by my words tho'. More substantive disagreement, less meaningless posturing :P

881 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:12:24pm

re: #876 WindUpBird

That would be utterly brilliant.

882 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:12:37pm

re: #862 goddamnedfrank

Ah, I see, the fact that indiscriminate aerial slaughter is not particularly conducive towards defeating a modern insurgency allows some kind of pass on previously established national principles?

Nope, that's not what I meant. My point is that war is always filled with unimaginable acts of brutality regardless and that includes our actions in WWII and all of which I am in agreement with. However, I see no moral equivalence to Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Berlin, etc. to water boarding when they effectively struck civilian targets.

You will also find if you read what I've said so far, that I have made no judgment about water boarding in any regard. I am neither in agreement or disagreement. My point is that the greater brutality of war is far more disturbing than water boarding.

883 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:12:48pm

re: #854 Gus 802

I've read We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, The Things They Carried, and some other book of mixed personal accounts. Oh, another one was
Combat Corpsman: The Vietnam Memoir Of A Navy Seals Medic. That's regarding Vietnam. Most of the others I've read have been WWII exclusively -- a lot of Ambrose.

Read that book. Really. You'll spend a lot of time going "hmmph" in the first half. By the end of it, you'll be going, "Ah, got it.". Those little fuckers were relentless.

Important.

884 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:14:03pm

re: #883 austin_blue

I got my dad a copy of "Patriots" for Christmas. I need to borrow it back and read it :)

885 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:15:15pm

re: #877 Cato the Elder

Let go early for bad behavior.

Is it true that they caught you cursing out Sarah Palin in your sleep?

//

886 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:15:19pm

re: #877 Cato the Elder

Let go early for bad behavior.

Welcome back! You were missed!
(I slipped in some sins against the gods of grammar while you were away. Mea culpa.)

887 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:15:53pm

God Bless the USA is a shit song. I find it to be cringe-inducing, embarrassing garbage. I'd rather listen to Creed. And I loathe Creed.

You want a good song about America? American Pie. Don MacLean. Another good America song? American Girl by Tom Petty. Another one? Born in the USA by Springsteen.

888 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:16:08pm

re: #879 Vambo

that song blows.

UP. DING.

889 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:16:17pm

re: #886 iceweasel

funny memory, first time I can think of someone responding to me on this blog was his being annoyed at my use of the term altho'.

890 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:16:33pm

re: #850 iceweasel

Thanks for the link, sounds interesting. Where this conflict will go is impossible to guess, its impact impossible to calculate. What is the future of the Western system of democracy and human rights should the conflict escalate and involve more Muslims living in Western countries? We already see some ugly signals in Europe. I have no answers.

891 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:17:15pm

re: #887 WindUpBird

God Bless the USA is a shit song. I find it to be cringe-inducing, embarrassing garbage. I'd rather listen to Creed. And I loathe Creed.

You want a good song about America? American Pie. Don MacLean. Another good America song? American Girl by Tom Petty. Another one? Born in the USA by Springsteen.

Hey, don't forget the Indelicates! America:

Youtube Video
892 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:17:23pm

re: #883 austin_blue

Read that book. Really. You'll spend a lot of time going "hmmph" in the first half. By the end of it, you'll be going, "Ah, got it.". Those little fuckers were relentless.

Important.

The NVA? They sure were. And the South didn't want to fight from what I've read. I forgot I have another book by Westmoreland around here. Signed even. The politics involved made my head spin. Ambassador Maxwell Taylor, President Diem, LBJ calling in the shots.

893 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:17:57pm

re: #890 Bagua

Thats kind of the problem, actually. The whole point of the war from the enemies point of view is to start just that kind of conflict.

Thats why we have to be so careful about how we act.

894 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:18:57pm

Hey, Ice-ski- check this out :

Tackhead -"I wanna be a chairborne ranger"

Youtube Video
895 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:19:17pm

re: #886 iceweasel

Welcome back! You were missed!
(I slipped in some sins against the gods of grammar while you were away. Mea culpa.)

Dang those dangling participles!

896 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:19:42pm

re: #891 iceweasel

I hadn't heard that before. damn catchy!

897 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:20:08pm

re: #887 WindUpBird

God Bless the USA is a shit song. I find it to be cringe-inducing, embarrassing garbage. I'd rather listen to Creed. And I loathe Creed.

You want a good song about America? American Pie. Don MacLean. Another good America song? American Girl by Tom Petty. Another one? Born in the USA by Springsteen.

I'm sorry, but I have to downding you. God Bless the USA is a decent quality patriotic song. I also like Creed and I'm glad they got back together.

PS, I updinged your next post at 888 to compensate. Just don't say what you just said when Mandy is around, because you will be on her shit list for life!

898 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:20:12pm

re: #890 Bagua

Thanks for the link, sounds interesting. Where this conflict will go is impossible to guess, its impact impossible to calculate. What is the future of the Western system of democracy and human rights should the conflict escalate and involve more Muslims living in Western countries? We already see some ugly signals in Europe. I have no answers.

It's always been a wholly new kind of war. And it's still changing.
Glad I'm not the one making the decisions about what to do. Definitely beyond my pay grade.

899 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:20:38pm

re: #871 iceweasel

Search my comments and you'll find me vigorously defending Mandy two (or so) days ago.
I reserve the right to call out behaviour I don't like, and I try to be equally vigorous in giving credit where and when credit is due.

I didn't see that and I could be wrong, just giving you the impression I got.

900 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:21:13pm

re: #894 Jimmah

Man where was this song 2 hours ago when we were arguing about WW2 and the "Greatest Generation"?! You let me down, man!

901 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:23:01pm

re: #899 Bagua

I didn't see that and I could be wrong, just giving you the impression I got.

No problem. I know you weren't around for that, just bringing it up to correct the impression. Or at least so you can factor it into it.
There isn't any vendetta.

902 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:24:40pm

re: #828 windsagio

re: #823 Racer X

I went the opposite way. Nina Hagen > Klaus Nomi


[Video]

Nina Hagen & Klaus Nomi together?! the universe would explode.

Youtube Video
903 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:25:36pm

re: #887 WindUpBird

God Bless the USA is a shit song. I find it to be cringe-inducing, embarrassing garbage. I'd rather listen to Creed. And I loathe Creed.

You want a good song about America? American Pie. Don MacLean. Another good America song? American Girl by Tom Petty. Another one? Born in the USA by Springsteen.

American Tune by Paul Simon.

It's the yin and yang of living in a country of 300 million people. It asks if we can do better. I think we probably can.

Oh and this is like thirty years old:

Many's the time I've been mistaken
And many times confused
Yes, and I've often felt forsaken
And certainly misused
Oh, but I'm all right, I'm all right
I'm just weary to my bones
Still, you don't expect to be
Bright and bon vivant
So far away from home, so far away from home

And I don't know a soul who's not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered
or driven to its knees
but it's all right, it's all right
for we lived so well so long
Still, when I think of the
road we're traveling on
I wonder what's gone wrong
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong

And I dreamed I was dying
I dreamed that my soul rose unexpectedly
And looking back down at me
Smiled reassuringly
And I dreamed I was flying
And high up above my eyes could clearly see
The Statue of Liberty
Sailing away to sea
And I dreamed I was crying

We come on the ship they call the Mayflower
We come on the ship that sailed the moon
We come in the age's most uncertain hours
and sing an American tune
Oh, and it's alright, it's all right, it's all right
You can't be forever blessed
Still, tomorrow's going to be another working day
And I'm trying to get some rest
That's all I'm trying to get some rest

904 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:25:50pm

re: #893 windsagio

Thats kind of the problem, actually. The whole point of the war from the enemies point of view is to start just that kind of conflict.

Thats why we have to be so careful about how we act.

Agreed, they are after chaos and destruction. I really don't know what "victory" would be in this conflict, and at what cost it could be obtained.

Achieving victory in WWII involved the destruction of the Nazi regime and the Imperial Japanese regime, along with a number of cities. What cost victory this time around?

905 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:26:46pm

"'Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!'"
- William Golding, Lord of the Flies

Nytol

906 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:26:59pm

re: #894 Jimmah

Hey, Ice-ski- check this out :

Tackhead -"I wanna be a chairborne ranger"


[Video]

There's really a lot of reasons why I love you, Comrade Jimmah-ski. :-)

907 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:27:33pm

re: #891 iceweasel

Hey, don't forget the Indelicates! America:

[Video]

One of 'our' songs, is that one :)

Here's another great song about America, by Hugh Laurie :

Youtube Video
908 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:27:43pm

re: #903 austin_blue

which leads to this

Youtube Video
909 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:27:46pm

re: #897 Dark_Falcon

I'm sorry, but I have to downding you. God Bless the USA is a decent quality patriotic song. I also like Creed and I'm glad they got back together.

PS, I updinged your next post at 888 to compensate. Just don't say what you just said when Mandy is around, because you will be on her shit list for life!

I'm sorry, dude. I can't do it, I have an atavistic, stomach-churning response to that damn song. If it comes on the radio I change the station. If I can't change the station, I leave the room.

I think there is little chance my music tastes mesh well with Mandy's. I listen to extreme industrial music, stoner doom, and death metal.

And Cyndi Lauper. I love Cyndi Lauper.

If you MUST like Creed, at least I hope you like the band Live? They're in the same post-grunge genre. Days of the New also good. The Tea Party, even better.

910 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:28:24pm

re: #903 austin_blue

I don't dislike Paul Simon, but he's never been my thing. I'm way more of a Peter Gabriel guy.

911 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:29:01pm

re: #904 Bagua

not sure what victory there is for us, at elast until the petrodollar funding runs out >>

For them victory is the mythical ending where the Islamic world rises up against the Crusaders and reinstates the Caliphate.

912 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:30:16pm

re: #910 WindUpBird

I once got into like a 3 hour argument about exactly that subject with a friend. It was brutal.


Interesting how those 2 come up in comparisons alot tho'.

913 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:30:29pm

Oops, three other books about Vietnam that I read. Tempered Steel: The Three Wars of Triple Air Force Cross Winner Jim Kasler, American Patriot: The Life and Wars of Colonel Bud Day, and Bury Us Upside Down: The Misty Pilots and the Secret Battle for the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

It's all one big blur. //

914 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:30:50pm

re: #897 Dark_Falcon

I'm sorry, but I have to downding you. God Bless the USA is a decent quality patriotic song. I also like Creed and I'm glad they got back together.

PS, I updinged your next post at 888 to compensate. Just don't say what you just said when Mandy is around, because you will be on her shit list for life!

Geez, if this thread devolves into a brushfire war over Lee Greenwood's vomitous paean to hack By Jingo!! sentimentality, I'll just go open my veins.

Really, DF. Spew.

915 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:30:56pm

re: #908 windsagio

oh damn.. I used to love that song, it kind of doesn't age well :(

916 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:31:30pm

re: #914 austin_blue

That made me laugh really hard >>

917 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:32:02pm

re: #912 windsagio

I once got into like a 3 hour argument about exactly that subject with a friend. It was brutal.

Interesting how those 2 come up in comparisons alot tho'.

I really like Simon and Garfunkel! I just cannot get into Paul Simon's solo stuff. Peter Gabriel I think I dig because he's so percussive, he obviously values strong percussion and crazy drumming, and I waaaaaay prefer his vocals. Also, PG has a prog-rock background, and Paul Simon has a folk background. One look at my record collection and you'll know which way I went. 8-)

918 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:32:17pm

re: #906 iceweasel

Egads! The conspiracy has gone corporate and now has a twitter feed, we are doomed.

Tech support: if it reads "RT @davewiegel" does that mean someone named RT is talking to davewiegel?

919 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:33:03pm

re: #882 Gus 802

Nope, that's not what I meant. My point is that war is always filled with unimaginable acts of brutality regardless and that includes our actions in WWII and all of which I am in agreement with. However, I see no moral equivalence to Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Berlin, etc. to water boarding when they effectively struck civilian targets.

Of course at the time we argued that the war was foisted upon us, but that our integrity was inviolable. Back then the fact we were so adept and capable at killing huge numbers of our enemy when necessary, but equally dedicated to maintaining human rights and justice for the individual prisoner, civilian and refugee was exactly what we wanted our national brand to be famous for.

You will also find if you read what I've said so far, that I have made no judgment about water boarding in any regard. I am neither in agreement or disagreement. My point is that the greater brutality of war is far more disturbing than water boarding.

War is bad, so comparatively water boarding is meh? I'm surprised the Japanese didn't try that one at trial.

920 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:33:20pm

If we're playing matching games now, here's one

Kurt Cobain or Eddie Vedder?!

921 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:33:33pm

re: #908 windsagio

which leads to this


[Video]

Actually, American Tune was at least 15 years after that. Point noted, though.

922 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:33:55pm

re: #910 WindUpBird

I don't dislike Paul Simon, but he's never been my thing. I'm way more of a Peter Gabriel guy.

Then this is for you:

Youtube Video
923 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:34:15pm

re: #921 austin_blue

no I meant by association not inspiration ;) From where I am now, "American Song" is probably actually a better song >

924 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:34:35pm

re: #914 austin_blue

Geez, if this thread devolves into a brushfire war over Lee Greenwood's vomitous paean to hack By Jingo!! sentimentality, I'll just go open my veins.

Really, DF. Spew.

I'm listening to Monster Magnet at the moment. IMHO, there is nothing more American than Monster Magnet. Guys in unfinished basements, huffing paint and having fantasies about 50 ft. women and muscle cars that can travel through time. :D

925 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:34:36pm

re: #918 Bagua

Egads! The conspiracy has gone corporate and now has a twitter feed, we are doomed.

Tech support: if it reads "RT @davewiegel" does that mean someone named RT is talking to davewiegel?

Means someone retweeted something he said. For example, most of Jimmah's and my* twitter feed will say RT@lizardoid because we're retweeting things CJ has posted.

*no idea how to make that grammatical.

926 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:35:19pm

"God Bless the USA" is just corny. I hate that kind of crying-in-my-beer sappy country music anyway - I ignored the genre for years because I figured it all sounded like that.

give me some badass J Cash outlaw country any day, or something chillaxed like this:

Youtube Video
927 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:35:31pm

re: #920 windsagio

If we're playing matching games now, here's one

Kurt Cobain or Eddie Vedder?!

Oh fuck, that's hard. I dislike Vedder's post-Ten vocals.

I say none of the above. MELVINS. And Alice in Chains.

928 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:35:33pm

re: #925 iceweasel

"For Jimmah and I, our Twitter feed will..."

Thats how I would do it ;)

929 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:36:10pm

re: #926 Vambo

"God Bless the USA" is just corny. I hate that kind of crying-in-my-beer sappy country music anyway - I ignored the genre for years because I figured it all sounded like that.

give me some badass J Cash outlaw country any day, or something chillaxed like this:

David Allan Coe! THAT is America. :D

930 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:36:31pm

re: #914 austin_blue

Geez, if this thread devolves into a brushfire war over Lee Greenwood's vomitous paean to hack By Jingo!! sentimentality, I'll just go open my veins.

Really, DF. Spew.

There ain't gonna be a brushfire. I said my piece, and counterbalanced my downding. I don't intend to pursue the subject.

931 Aye Pod  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:36:32pm

re: #906 iceweasel

There's really a lot of reasons why I love you, Comrade Jimmah-ski. :-)

And why I love you, comrade Ice-ski :)

Youtube Video
932 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:37:08pm

re: #927 WindUpBird

You ass, its supposed to be hard. Otherwise its not a contest!

I'd say Cobain, partially because of the fact that he was so unmusical Dave Grohl had to do his matching vocals >> Which is a great story :)

933 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:37:48pm

re: #916 windsagio

That made me laugh really hard >>

Hey, I'm here all week, just remember to give a nice to your bartender.

934 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:38:00pm

re: #922 Dark_Falcon

Then this is for you:


[Video]

Ever noticed the time sig in Solsbury Hill? Try clapping along to it. it's in 7/8!

Love that song. Love it to death. Also love Rhythm and the Heat, Red Rain, Games without Frontiers, and everything off Passion.

935 Vambo  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:38:14pm

re: #929 WindUpBird

David Allan Coe! THAT is America. :D

Youtube Video
936 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:38:25pm

re: #930 Dark_Falcon

haha don't worry 'bout it :) The late nite Peaceful, Easy Feeling prevails!

937 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:38:27pm

re: #911 windsagio

not sure what victory there is for us, at elast until the petrodollar funding runs out >>

For them victory is the mythical ending where the Islamic world rises up against the Crusaders and reinstates the Caliphate.

Mindyou I'm not even talking about "victory" in Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran/Yemen/Somolia/etc.

I'm referring to "victory" against Islamic terrorist attacks in general.

938 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:39:27pm

re: #930 Dark_Falcon

There ain't gonna be a brushfire. I said my piece, and counterbalanced my downding. I don't intend to pursue the subject.

I'm outraegously opinionated about music, but I also know for a fact I listen to a lot of unholy racket, so I can't say TOO much. :D

I have an album on my desk even Slumbering Behemoth would probably balk at, Yob's Great Cessation.

939 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:39:34pm

re: #931 Jimmah

Ain't love grand?

[DF adopts teary eyed sentimental pose.]

940 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:39:49pm

re: #933 austin_blue

Hey, I'm here all week, just remember to give a nice to your bartender.

Aargh! Nice Tip!

941 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:40:02pm

re: #932 windsagio

You ass, its supposed to be hard. Otherwise its not a contest!

I'd say Cobain, partially because of the fact that he was so unmusical Dave Grohl had to do his matching vocals >> Which is a great story :)

Dave Grohl is one of my favorite humans :D

942 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:40:17pm

re: #929 WindUpBird

David Allan Coe! THAT is America. :D

I still like Merle Haggard's "Fighting Side of Me." I used to post it here all the time. He's actually pretty liberal.

943 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:40:19pm

re: #937 Bagua

Oh I am too. Until the funding for the core organizations (and the extremist schools) dries up, we're out of luck, probably.

944 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:41:11pm

re: #941 WindUpBird

Mine too. I just downloaded 'The Colour and the Shape' for rockband, and immediately played it through twice. Utterly brilliant!

945 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:41:27pm

re: #925 iceweasel

So if it says "RT@lizardoid" you are retweeting something lizardoid said on another tweet feed?

946 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:41:40pm

re: #934 WindUpBird

Ever noticed the time sig in Solsbury Hill? Try clapping along to it. it's in 7/8!

Love that song. Love it to death. Also love Rhythm and the Heat, Red Rain, Games without Frontiers, and everything off Passion.

Your knowledge of music greatly exceeds my own. I know few songs that did not get radio airplay. I haven't the money to buy music much.

947 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:42:02pm

Well, as long as everyone's posting shit:

Youtube Video

"I was thinking how the world should have cried/on the day Jack Kirby died"

Some of my favorite lyrics ever. :D

948 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:42:27pm

re: #939 Dark_Falcon

Ain't love grand?

[DF adopts teary eyed sentimental pose.]

Pssst.....friended you on youtube earlier. ;-)

949 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:43:00pm

Oh damn, that reminds me, a good theme song for blogging (from the lyrics anyways)

Youtube Video
950 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:43:22pm

re: #946 Dark_Falcon

Your knowledge of music greatly exceeds my own. I know few songs that did not get radio airplay. I haven't the money to buy music much.

There's always the internets! There's a lot of good resources for music that don't require shelling out bucks. Hell, myspace alone has exposed me to dozens of bands. And Pandora, and *cough*torrents*cough*

951 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:43:54pm

re: #949 windsagio

(wish I could edit instead of doublepost)

The above almost exactly expresses my attitude to blog posting when my hubris is out of control >>

952 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:44:22pm

re: #942 Gus 802

I still like Merle Haggard's "Fighting Side of Me." I used to post it here all the time. He's actually pretty liberal.

True. In that way, I agree with Merle: It's not liberals I don't like, its the sort of moonbat (or wingnut) who hates their own country that I despise. Thankfully, Charles keeps those sorts of asshole out of here.

953 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:44:23pm

re: #950 WindUpBird

For shame! leading our youth to lives of crime!

Don't listen to him, DF!

954 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:45:02pm

re: #948 iceweasel

Pssst...friended you on youtube earlier. ;-)

I saw that and accepted. Thank you.

955 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:46:45pm

re: #938 WindUpBird

I tried to like Yob. It didn't work. Did I ever link you any Monkey3?

956 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:47:01pm

re: #945 Bagua

So if it says "RT@lizardoid" you are retweeting something lizardoid said on another tweet feed?

Technically, yeah, you're retweeting what is in their twitter feed.
Charles has this whole nifty set up where there is a retweet button at the top of each post on LGF, so by clicking one button you automatically retweet the posts here (specifically, his twitter account where there is an automatically shortened URL for that post).

You can use twitter to retweet someone's twitter feed, or pop in links to articles you find interesting, or to say what you're cat is doing. Whatever.

It's definitely a nifty tool for bloggers.

957 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:47:14pm

All browsers are Of The Devil™

I have all this awesome processing power and firefox still chokes up.

958 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:47:47pm

re: #953 windsagio

For shame! leading our youth to lives of crime!

Don't listen to him, DF!

I won't. I don't trust torrent software, and won't let it on my PC.

959 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:48:07pm

re: #956 iceweasel

Technically, yeah, you're retweeting what is in their twitter feed.
Charles has this whole nifty set up where there is a retweet button at the top of each post on LGF, so by clicking one button you automatically retweet the posts here (specifically, his twitter account where there is an automatically shortened URL for that post).

You can use twitter to retweet someone's twitter feed, or pop in links to articles you find interesting, or to say what you're cat is doing. Whatever.

It's definitely a nifty tool for bloggers.

WTF, I must be tired. Whoops.

960 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:48:16pm

re: #957 Bagua

All browsers are Of The Devil™

I have all this awesome processing power and firefox still chokes up.

Let me know if you need Pat Robertson's number.

//

961 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:48:22pm

re: #957 Bagua

I actually don't have the newest version of Firefox. The last time I updated it came with the Free Included Rootkit, and I don't trust their distribution anymore.

962 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:49:39pm

re: #961 windsagio

I actually don't have the newest version of Firefox. The last time I updated it came with the Free Included Rootkit, and I don't trust their distribution anymore.

Please explain.

963 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:50:43pm

re: #960 Gus 802

Let me know if you need Pat Robertson's number.

//

Ha, you probably have it too! or could find it in 30 seconds or so. All hail Gus's google-fu!

964 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:51:09pm

re: #956 iceweasel

Thanks, I'm going to learn ropes and harass you there as well.

I assume I can also tweet messages onto your feed? Or can I only read and post messages on my own feed?

965 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:51:14pm

re: #962 Dark_Falcon

I'm trying to remember the story. In the Firefox update about 10~ months ago, there was a problem where like half of the people who updated got rootkits. IF I remember correctly, they distributed the update essentially through torrents, and one of the kernels stored somewhere got infected with the rootkit, and it got in with the update.

I don't know if it was ever proven one way or the other tho'.

966 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:51:16pm

Appalachian Spring, Rodeo, Shenandoah, Simple Gifts, Fanfare for the Common Man.

967 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:51:52pm

re: #963 iceweasel

Ha, you probably have it too! or could find it in 30 seconds or so. All hail Gus's google-fu!

Woot! Kwa! Blam! Boom!

/

968 Bagua  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:52:40pm

re: #962 Dark_Falcon

Please explain.

Yes do!

969 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:53:45pm

re: #930 Dark_Falcon

There ain't gonna be a brushfire. I said my piece, and counterbalanced my downding. I don't intend to pursue the subject.

Now, now, You got now downdings from me. Musical taste is musical taste.
Although I must say I've got serious issues with the Bee Gees disco and the Pina Colada Song.

970 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:54:15pm

re: #969 austin_blue

well then, whats your view on 'Margaritaville'?

971 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:54:57pm

re: #969 austin_blue

Now, now, You got now downdings from me. Musical taste is musical taste.
Although I must say I've got serious issues with the Bee Gees disco and the Pina Colada Song.

Ugh. Who sang that "Sailing" song?

972 Gus  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:55:48pm

re: #971 Gus 802

Ugh. Who sang that "Sailing" song?

Christopher Cross! Somebody shoot me! Where's FBV? We need to cue up some Barry Manilow.

//

973 The Left  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:57:53pm

re: #964 Bagua

Thanks, I'm going to learn ropes and harass you there as well.

I assume I can also tweet messages onto your feed? Or can I only read and post messages on my own feed?

Oh cool, yay, we'll follow you there too!
Download tweetdeck, it's extremely useful. I know Charles has recommended it in the past and it's made the whole experience of using twitter much better.

You can retweet us. or 'reply' to something we've posted--that shows up in both our feeds, yours and ours. There's also a direct message function so we can send each other private harrassing messages too, that don't show up in public feeds. All sorts of goodies. :-)

974 windsagio  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:58:29pm

re: #972 Gus 802

now we're wandering into Yacht Rock Territory

Youtube Video
975 austin_blue  Wed, Jan 13, 2010 11:59:18pm

re: #971 Gus 802

Ugh. Who sang that "Sailing" song?

Christopher Cross. My wife plays at least two gigs a year with the drummer and bass player from that band. The drummer is shit hot (Tommy Taylor), and the bass player isn't half bad either. Old Austin players.

976 bagua  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:00:37am

re: #973 iceweasel

Oh cool, yay, we'll follow you there too!
Download tweetdeck, it's extremely useful. I know Charles has recommended it in the past and it's made the whole experience of using twitter much better.

You can retweet us. or 'reply' to something we've posted--that shows up in both our feeds, yours and ours. There's also a direct message function so we can send each other private harrassing messages too, that don't show up in public feeds. All sorts of goodies. :-)

Cool. I apologise in advance for my impending comments.

977 Gus  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:00:49am

re: #974 windsagio

now we're wandering into Yacht Rock Territory


[Video]

Hang on. Let me get my espadrilles, turquoise jacket, green pants, and yellow shirt.

//

978 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:02:43am

re: #971 Gus 802

Ugh. Who sang that "Sailing" song?

I dunno, but I used to like it as a kid. Now, not so much. But this next song came out when I was a child and I still like it:

Youtube Video
979 bagua  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:04:18am

re: #973 iceweasel

Funny thing is... I set up a couple of test accounts. Sent a few messages back and forth such as: "Test tweet from mobile" and "Test Tweet from laptop"

About six total. In the weeks since I've gotten about six requests from random people wanting to follow my tweets.

I also got one tweet from someone I knew asking "who is this" that worried me. No clue how they got my tweet address.

980 Gus  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:04:23am

re: #975 austin_blue

Christopher Cross. My wife plays at least two gigs a year with the drummer and bass player from that band. The drummer is shit hot (Tommy Taylor), and the bass player isn't half bad either. Old Austin players.

OK, let me revise that. Chris Cross drove me bats but the drummer and bass player were Sierra Hotel. //

981 Gus  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:06:42am

re: #978 Dark_Falcon

I dunno, but I used to like it as a kid. Now, not so much. But this next song came out when I was a child and I still like it:


[Video]

I'll see your Laura Branigan and raise you a 99 Luft Balloons by Nena.

Youtube Video

//

982 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:08:32am

re: #981 Gus 802

can't decide if this ballad version is acceptable or not.

Youtube Video


The new version of Leuchtturm is cool tho :)

983 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:09:22am

re: #981 Gus 802

Also very good. I'll see your Nena and put in some Mr. Mister:

Youtube Video
984 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:10:52am

re: #982 windsagio

hrm, wonder why the embedding didn't work. Ahh well.

985 Gus  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:10:58am

re: #982 windsagio

can't decide if this ballad version is acceptable or not.

Youtube Video

The new version of Leuchtturm is cool tho :)

I like that last one. Nena's all grown up.

986 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:19:57am

re: #976 bagua

Cool. I apologise in advance for my impending comments.

Hee. Accepted. I'll apologise for mine in advance too!

re: #979 bagua

Funny thing is... I set up a couple of test accounts. Sent a few messages back and forth such as: "Test tweet from mobile" and "Test Tweet from laptop"

About six total. In the weeks since I've gotten about six requests from random people wanting to follow my tweets.

I also got one tweet from someone I knew asking "who is this" that worried me. No clue how they got my tweet address.

i don't do any other 'social networking' thing for precisely that reason. Facebook, etc. Way too many powerful algorthims out there putting stuff together. Don't need weirdos from the stalker site getting into that.

You'll get some spam requests from 'followers'. Some are just spam, some are people who just want followers of their own (like 'friending' people you don't even know on facebook)
And some appear to be based on other things. For example, there is a conservative (as in wingnut) site that apparently picked us up because of who we follow: ACLU, e.g.
Though they pretend to be a free speech organisation, they're actually devoted to disseminating homophobic propaganda (amongst other things). Blocked those fuckers.

987 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:22:20am

on a slightly meta note, its wierd watching someone go through a thousand-post thread late at night and up/down ding on strictly partisan grounds, with no intention of actually taking part in any discussion, just to 'fix' the numbers a little bit.

988 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:25:03am

re: #986 iceweasel

i don't do any other 'social networking' thing for precisely that reason. Facebook, etc. Way too many powerful algorthims out there putting stuff together. Don't need weirdos from the stalker site getting into that.

You'll get some spam requests from 'followers'. Some are just spam, some are people who just want followers of their own (like 'friending' people you don't even know on facebook)
And some appear to be based on other things. For example, there is a conservative (as in wingnut) site that apparently picked us up because of who we follow: ACLU, e.g.
Though they pretend to be a free speech organisation, they're actually devoted to disseminating homophobic propaganda (amongst other things). Blocked those fuckers.

Concerns like that are what keep me off Facebook, too. Most of my family is on there, but I had to explain to my cousin recently my I couldn't join. I just told him the truth: There are people from "theBlogmocracy" who are on Facebook and hate my guts. If I set up there, I'll spend most of my time fending off hatemail. And God help me if my account was hacked. Ben_Zachariah still has a standing threat for that idiotic post I made that came across as a threat to his daughter. No, best to stay clear.

989 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:25:55am

re: #987 windsagio

on a slightly meta note, its wierd watching someone go through a thousand-post thread late at night and up/down ding on strictly partisan grounds, with no intention of actually taking part in any discussion, just to 'fix' the numbers a little bit.

That's a sufferer of extreme butthurt, my friend.
Once upon a time they roamed the land in packs, downdinging some (such as myself) for merely saying "good morning".
Now they are gone....but a few brave holdouts remaining, strapping on their helmet filled with mountain dew and dual straws, furiously hitting the downding keys with Cheeto-stained fingers...they only come out at night.

990 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:26:17am

re: #987 windsagio

on a slightly meta note, its wierd watching someone go through a thousand-post thread late at night and up/down ding on strictly partisan grounds, with no intention of actually taking part in any discussion, just to 'fix' the numbers a little bit.

Which "chickenshit stealth dinger" (to use Salamantis' turn of phrase) is doing it this time?

991 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:27:04am

re: #989 iceweasel

lol I love your way with words.

re: #990 Dark_Falcon

"Thematrix31"

992 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:27:41am

re: #989 iceweasel

That's a sufferer of extreme butthurt, my friend.
Once upon a time they roamed the land in packs, downdinging some (such as myself) for merely saying "good morning".
Now they are gone...but a few brave holdouts remaining, strapping on their helmet filled with mountain dew and dual straws, furiously hitting the downding keys with Cheeto-stained fingers...they only come out at night.

Aw come now, ice. You know that as holdouts they're drinking Mountain Dew Throwback right now. ;)

993 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:28:56am

re: #988 Dark_Falcon

Concerns like that are what keep me off Facebook, too. Most of my family is on there, but I had to explain to my cousin recently my I couldn't join. I just told him the truth: There are people from "theBlogmocracy" who are on Facebook and hate my guts. If I set up there, I'll spend most of my time fending off hatemail. And God help me if my account was hacked. Ben_Zachariah still has a standing threat for that idiotic post I made that came across as a threat to his daughter. No, best to stay clear.

Facebook algorithms in particular are far too powerful. They make far more information available than you'd want to have, and they progressively (heh) loosen the ability of users to control and own content, as well as set privacy levels. Screw Facebook.

994 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:30:10am

re: #993 iceweasel

Yes yes yes!


Its this brutal trap/scam, and totally unacceptably invasive.

I didn't do mySpace, and I won't do Facebook. Same reasons as you 2.

995 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:30:55am

re: #991 windsagio

lol I love your way with words.

re: #990 Dark_Falcon

"Thematrix31"

You can catch him logging in every night just to throw me a few downdings.
It's pretty clear (or should be) that I don't particularly care about them. Heck, I'm certain I held all ten spots on the bottom ten more than once when I got here.
My fave was the time I had three in the top ten and two in the bottom ten simultaneously. That was kinda cool.

996 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:31:24am

re: #991 windsagio

lol I love your way with words.

re: #990 Dark_Falcon

"Thematrix31"

Had to be...lol

997 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:32:55am

re: #995 iceweasel

re: #996 Jimmah

so thats a 'Known known' not an "Unkown unknown".


The metaculture of LGF is totally fascinating to me. Things like that guy, and the stalkers and the whole weird deal. One wonders when it quit just being a political blog.

998 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:33:23am

re: #974 windsagio

now we're wandering into Yacht Rock Territory


[Video]

GOD DAMMIT LOGGINS

The SMOOTH GROOVES of this song will propel it to at least number 2!

999 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:34:17am

re: #995 iceweasel

You can catch him logging in every night just to throw me a few downdings.
It's pretty clear (or should be) that I don't particularly care about them. Heck, I'm certain I held all ten spots on the bottom ten more than once when I got here.
My fave was the time I had three in the top ten and two in the bottom ten simultaneously. That was kinda cool.

Wingnut downdings tickle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

1000 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:34:44am

re: #998 WindUpBird

"Hall and I will not stand idly by while you California Vagina Sailors stab the american airwaves in the balls with your shit... music."

1001 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:36:05am

re: #999 Jimmah

lol I had to upding that, even 9 months late. Shall I turn it to a down?

1002 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:37:03am

re: #999 Jimmah

Wingnut downdings tickle:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Well, Rick Astley does have a new album coming out this year. The use of Rick-rolling apparently gave him and his label the idea that there is money to be made.

1003 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:38:38am

re: #1001 windsagio

lol I had to upding that, even 9 months late. Shall I turn it to a down?

Thanks! No - you don't have to. The pleasant tickling sensation derives from the total number of wingnut downdings...and that remains undiminished :)

1004 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:39:14am

re: #1003 Jimmah

I'll admit, thats the single greatest Rickrolling I've ever seen.


You must be proud!

1005 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:39:23am

re: #997 windsagio

re: #996 Jimmah

so thats a 'Known known' not an "Unkown unknown".

The metaculture of LGF is totally fascinating to me. Things like that guy, and the stalkers and the whole weird deal. One wonders when it quit just being a political blog.

Oh, it's fascinating to me too. I'm fascinated in general by the growing field of what we could call 'internet psychology'. On forums, message boards, and blogs you get something that is like an offshoot of organisational psych. A number of dissertations are in the works about it. Academic articles have already been written.

LGF has always been unique, imo, because unlike most political blogs, we have a community of probably about 200 regular hardcore commenters (as in, every day, multiple comments per day). So it's always had a tight web community culture that is unique.
And then there are the haters....who 'hate' LGF so much they have built their own little communities of outcasts, some of whom have been gone for literally years, yet they desperately long to 'recreate' LGF or get back onto LGF or just talk shit about LGF and Charles all day long. Completely bizarre.

1006 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:42:17am

re: #1005 iceweasel

Absolutely! Good analysis :)


Part of whats fascinating to me too, is how much some of LGF'ers are just as obsessed with what the stalkers are doing as vice-versa.

1007 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:42:25am

re: #1005 iceweasel

Ice, check out my #73 on the next thread if you would please.

1008 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:44:28am

re: #1006 windsagio

Absolutely! Good analysis :)

Part of whats fascinating to me too, is how much some of LGF'ers are just as obsessed with what the stalkers are doing as vice-versa.

I've been trying to dial that back myself. I will say that part of the reason avanti and I check into those folks is that we are both frequent targets of their invective. I check what is going on there at times simply to make sure that there not sending sockpuppets over here.

1009 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:45:39am

re: #1004 windsagio

I'll admit, thats the single greatest Rickrolling I've ever seen.

You must be proud!

Thanks - yes I ave to say I am. The place was crawling with wingnuts that day, all desperately looking for anything that would put Obama in a bad light with regard to that incident, and I figured it was down to me to give them it :D

1010 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:45:42am

re: #1008 Dark_Falcon

If I'm honest I might do the same thing myself >> But since I'm not a target, I can just stand here and look on interestedly :)

1011 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:45:56am

re: #1010 windsagio

err if I were honest and one of their targets.

1012 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:52:20am

Heh, in other news someone caught up with us talking about them and has substantially enlarged upon the butthurtedness.

1013 Aye Pod  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:52:48am

Night folks :)

Youtube Video
1014 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:53:25am

God forbid I actually have a job and can't sit int front of my computer while the thread is active to participate in it. Who do you think you are, dude?

1015 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:55:03am

re: #1014 TheMatrix31

Somebody whose more interested in ACTUALLY TAKING PART in the discussion rather than just sneaking in and messing with dinging.

Do you really think what you're doing is in any way meaningful?

1016 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:55:30am

re: #1008 Dark_Falcon

I've been trying to dial that back myself. I will say that part of the reason avanti and I check into those folks is that we are both frequent targets of their invective. I check what is going on there at times simply to make sure that there not sending sockpuppets over here.

That has been happening less and less. I think we might be at the end of that era when it was happening all the time (the great exodus of the summer/fall, the infliction of painful iceweasel-induced butthurt).
Also I think Charles has some new nifty systems in place to catch some of the worst repeat offenders.

I checked out your post and bookmarked the link to read when I get up-- fading here.
DF-- I think twitter is relatively safe as far as social networking goes (but bear in mind what Bagua said above). Use a nic unrelated to the one you have here, a completely throw away email acct unconnected to anything you have, and don't follow (or give the acct to) anyone you know in your offline life.
If you do that it can be a cool tool. Of course I'm biased because if you did that, then jimmah and I could talk to you more. :)

I'm out for now-- take care all. Always a true pleasure.

1017 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:56:52am

re: #1012 windsagio

Heh, in other news someone caught up with us talking about them and has substantially enlarged upon the butthurtedness.

Lol. May stick around for a bit.

1018 TheMatrix31  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:56:52am

re: #1015 windsagio

Who cares what it is? Does it matter to you? I'm catching up on a thread I missed while I was at work. Sorry I couldn't sit on my ass and participate, because there was a whole helluva lot of things I could have said while the thread was actually active. Get off your fucking high horse.

1019 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 12:59:30am

re: #1018 TheMatrix31

Angry angry. We should combine threads tho', because this gets confusing otherwise.

1020 windsagio  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 1:03:57am

sorry Ice, decided to not be a total Ahole for once >>

1021 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 2:50:31am

i realise this is a dead thread now and has wandered far away from the original subject, but wanted to add this:

Waterboarding is torture. It was when the Japanese did it, (and when we tried them and convicted them for so doing, along with many other atrocities) and it is when we've done it.
Nothing is to be gained by playing games about whether it's torture or not.

The real (pragmatic) issue then needs to be, is torture a reliable means of gaining information?
The evidence suggests not. Apart from the myriad false confessions we know it to have generated when we've used it (leading to the claims about Padilla and the dirty bomb, for just one example), there is also much testimony to that from many--including those best equipped to know these things. One useful post is this one by Malcolm Nance at small wars journal.

Here is some of Malcom Nance's bio:

Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community's Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor.

There is, clearly, much more to be said on this issue. I expect it to keep coming up here, esp with the impending terror trials and the closure of gitmo.
Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm someone who reads DU, a moonbat, or someone who looooves Obama. I am none of those. You will find me to be an incredibly harsh critic of Obama, in some areas.
There are, however, apart from the pragmatic issues of 'is torture a reliable means of gaining intel?' also serious moral issues about when and where and how and why the US should stoop to such tactics.

Don't think I am someone who 'hates America' or 'pities terrorists' because I am concerned about those issues. On the contrary, I love America at least as much as any of you, and my concerns in that area are all about the defence of what I believe to be the core values of our country.
Random late night post on a dead thread, addressed to no one in particular.

1022 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 3:38:37am

Sorry-- Nance doesn't give enough details on why torture is ineffective as a means of gaining good intel.

Looking at the details of what we 'gained' from torture will. Padilla, Zurabia, etc.

There's also this guy, Stuart Herrington:
Sunday Forum: Two problems with torture
It's wrong and it doesn't work, according to interrogation expert

I served 30 years in the U.S. Army as an intelligence officer, which included extensive experience as an interrogator in Vietnam, in Panama and during the 1991 Gulf War. In the course of these sensitive missions, my teams and I collected mountains of excellent, verified information, despite the fact that we never laid a hostile hand on a prisoner. Had one of my interrogators done so, he would have been disciplined and most likely relieved of his duties.

Since my retirement, I have twice answered the Army's call, journeying to Guantanamo and Iraq to evaluate interrogation procedures. Subsequently, when the terrible tsunami of verified reports of detainee torture by American soldiers overwhelmed the dikes, the Army asked me to assist in training a new battalion of Iraq-bound Army interrogators in non-coercive interrogation techniques.


Haven't vetted him yet myself, so I can't personally vouch for his bona fides here.

Here's some vid of someone else:
FBI interrogator: Torture doesn't work, breeds jihad

Here's a former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Quaeda suspects -- saying categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence, but that it does sell impressionable people on the legitimacy of jihad, on the grounds that a regime that tortures deserves to be attacked.

Again, I can't vouch for this particular guy and his claims.

I'll dig up more later when I'm less tired, from places I can vouch for.

Here is one worth a look:
The Tortured Brain
Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.
I haven't yet read th academic article she cites there, so I have to do that. Pop articles often misunderstand or misrepresent scientific studies.

It's worth noting that all our best intelligence and interrogation during wwii didn't involve us resorting to torture, but from forming relationships with the prisoner.

I do have shitloads of reputable links on this subject, but I'm too tired to retrieve them at the moment. I will do so. These are just random google links available to all. Possibly it's a mistake to post them -- there well may be one or more here that's been debunked somewhere -- but people should be aware that many intelligence professionals have expressed doubts about the efficacy of torture.

another random link:
Why Torture Doesn't Work By Brig. Gen. David R. Irvine

Remarkably, of the nation's major newspapers, only the Wall Street Journal has editorialized in support of torture as a useful tool of American intelligence policy. Regrettably, that position does a huge disservice to the nation and its soldiers. There are really only three issues in this debate, and the Journal carefully turned a blind eye to all three: (1) is torture reliable, (2) is it consistent with America's values and Constitution, and (3) does it best serve our national interests?

No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives.

1023 RogueOne  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 3:48:01am

Without reading through the 1000+ responses, I wanted to point out there are 3 extended clips on the daily show site. I'm just finishing the 2nd now.

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

They're unedited, each is around 9 minutes and the 2nd contains a dirty word.

1024 RogueOne  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 4:03:03am

re: #14 iceweasel

Adam Serwer had a good analysis of this in the American Prospect; I popped it in the overnight links last night, but here it is:

When Jon Stewart Fails.

Nails it, IMO.

Without getting into the whole "does torture work" (which I believe has been answered repeatedly over the last 5 or 6,000 years of mans history), I think Yoo is right in his analysis of the role of the president and the congress when it comes to their war powers. The constitution is very clear, and we have over 200 years of precedence to back it up, about what branches of our government have the decision making authority in a war setting. Not only do I believe the framers had it right, I think it boils down to who gets to decide what behavior is appropriate in a war. I believe that answer is the voters. We get to decide if the president or the congress went far enough or if they went too far, not the courts.

1025 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 4:32:55am

re: #1024 RogueOne

Without getting into the whole "does torture work" (which I believe has been answered repeatedly over the last 5 or 6,000 years of mans history), I think Yoo is right in his analysis of the role of the president and the congress when it comes to their war powers.

I wholly disagree with you on this. I didn't like it under Bush, and I don't like it under Obama (Obama has in virtually every instance either retained or extended the Bush admin views on the power of the executive branch, as I am sure you already know).

We'll get into it later. Woot! Fight! /
( I know our convos on this won't turn ugly, just as I am certain that I will learn from your posts on the subject, even if we continue to completely disagree. And I like that!)

1026 RogueOne  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 6:08:35am

re: #1025 iceweasel

To be honest, my main concern is that I believe war powers are a political issue and I think the framers had that in mind when deciding who should have the authority to what. We had a couple of elections "where we the people" decided if the president was using his authority properly and I think that is our decision to make. We get to decide, no one else. Down with the man and all that./

1027 The Left  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 6:19:39am

re: #1026 RogueOne

Yeah, I disagree. Cut me some slack, please, still recovering from flu here and been sleepless. Bookmarked your comment and will respond properly when able to.

Updinged you anyway, partly for making me laugh with with the 'down with the man and all that' comment.
looking forward to having this discussion with you later, btw. pls forgive my inability to do so properly now. Also my typos and random lack of capitalisation.

1028 exelwood  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 9:38:01am

In '03 he was still useful to the anti-war (anti-Bush) left/media so these little transgressions could be ignored in pursuit of the greater good but in 2010 he is of no use to anyone so off with his head!

1029 exelwood  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 9:39:18am

Whoops! Too many windows open, responded to the wrong thread!

1030 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Jan 14, 2010 11:13:15am

re: #844 lrsshadow

Don't forget who got us in the damn mess, the greasy French who wanted another colony so they could feel good after getting their ass kicked by the Germans twice in less three decades.

If it wasn't for the French the Americans would be speaking English right now...............


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