Read of the Day: The Climate Killers
Environment • Views: 3,479
Must-read of the day: The Climate Killers, subtitled, “Meet the 17 polluters and deniers who are derailing efforts to curb global warming.”
270 comments
1 |
TampaKnight Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:49:56pm |
Charles- must admit that I'm a global warming skeptic who is slowly coming around to the idea that this thing is more real than I think, and we need some solutions. The problem is that I think Cap and Tax is a load of crap, and the technology they're pushing is nowhere near mature enough to put full reliance on yet. In fact for work I did a full industrial entry analysis for a plant in Texas, focusing on wind energy, and was astounded at the major problems that wind energy faces when talking using it nationally.
So, what do you think about a nuclear power initiative? It's a proven technology, we know how to do it, it's completely CO2 emission free, and we have a grid in place to handle the energy flow. In fact, the French borrowed our technology and now run 90% of their nation off nuclear power, and export the most energy in Europe (at the cheapest cost as well).
Looking for opinions on answers to the problem.....
| 2 |
AK-47% Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:50:18pm |
Reading these makes me even more amused to hear people who reject global warming research because of "the moneyed interests behind it".
| 3 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:50:30pm |
Inhofe is jealous that he wasn't placed first.
| 5 |
AK-47% Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:53:47pm |
Tampa,
be careful with your terminology "lowest price" mighe be right but "cheapest cost" is something that is not reflected in the market price, which is a big problem I have with nuclear energy: the costs are hidden and some of them are buried underground to bother future generations.
I could even see using nuclear energy if it were part of a transitional program to get us to reduce carbon, but I somehow don't see that as a major incentive for those who support maintaining or even expanding it.
| 6 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:54:36pm |
I found the list interesting for who wasn't on it........like not one head of state or oil minister from an OPEC nation.
| 7 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:55:29pm |
I'm glad that the "nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office" determined that it "would actually save Americans with the lowest incomes about $40 a year." I'm sold now.
| 8 |
windsagio Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:55:30pm |
re: #1 TampaKnight
I think theres an irony with Cap'n'Trade in that as far as I can tell, it was meant to appeal to the conservatives as being market driven, and not so socialist-ey.
That makes it funny that EVERYONE hates it, but we seem stuck with it now.
| 9 |
abolitionist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:56:07pm |
Please, can someone explain the meaning of "climate killer"?
Sounds like something I wouldn't want to be accused of being. Like loner.
| 10 |
TampaKnight Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:56:14pm |
re: #5 ralphieboy
Tampa,
be careful with your terminology "lowest price" mighe be right but "cheapest cost" is something that is not reflected in the market price, which is a big problem I have with nuclear energy: the costs are hidden and some of them are buried underground to bother future generations.
I could even see using nuclear energy if it were part of a transitional program to get us to reduce carbon, but I somehow don't see that as a major incentive for those who support maintaining or even expanding it.
That's part of my problem with forming an opinion in this AGW debate. Many smart people have told me that the situation is dire, and the consequences of doing nothing are large. Yet when the nuclear energy idea is posed, I'm told that there are too many "potential" issues and we should develop new technology. Well- which is it? Must we act now, or wait and slowly develop unproven technology? Sure nuclear energy isn't perfect, but if drastically cutting Co2 emissions quickly is the answer, this seems to be the quickest solution.
Not being argumentative, just sayin...
| 11 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:57:14pm |
re: #6 Big Steve
Yeah, they stayed within the American political/social scene.
| 12 |
windsagio Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:57:36pm |
re: #10 TampaKnight
There are a lot of potential gains with solar and wind as well, if we can deal with the Nimbys. Nuclear has its place, but its not the silver bullet some people think it is. It probably also has a place tho' >>
| 13 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:57:58pm |
re: #7 Unakite
I'm glad that the "nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office" determined that it "would actually save Americans with the lowest incomes about $40 a year." I'm sold now.
/well once you factor in how many Americans would then be at the lowest levels it would really add up!
| 14 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:58:08pm |
I must say, I don't think a carbon tax is the best answer. Or even any answer at all.
Buffett is right that a carbon tax is a tax. And let's be clear on "carbon pollution". The responsibility for CO2 emissions rests not only with the railroad that carries the coal to the electric power plant, not only with the utility company that burns that coal to provide electricity, but finally and mostly with the society that runs on electricity and stubbornly refuses to license the construction of nuclear power plants.
What's more, even if the U.S. were to immediately and permanently cease to use any fossil fuels, and even if Europe were to do likewise, nothing much would be changed. The schedule for global warming would simply be delayed a bit. No solution is worth anything unless China and India are on board.
The political difficulties of getting newly industrializing nations to cancel their own coming prosperity seem insurmountable. That means that any response other than just taking our lumps must be primarily technological. We need to intensify our efforts to bring solar energy to where it's competitive with coal. We need to brusquely sweep aside NIMBY objections to the siting of wind, solar, and nuclear projects. We need "greens" who get it, who realize that the game afoot is too big to be squeamish about populations of desert creek minnows.
And we need to be optimists. We can do this. And when we've done it, we can cash in selling the new and better, and incidentally green, technology to the rest of the world. We can't make Canton, China give up coal. We probably can't make Canton Ohio give up coal. But we can create a situation in which it will be to China's own advantage to move over to the new and better way of getting electricity.
| 15 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 2:58:11pm |
I don't think pointing out the obvious
The climate bill passed by the House, Buffett insists, is a "huge tax — and there's no sense calling it anything else." What's more, he says, the measure would mean "very poor people are going to pay a lot more money for their electricity."
should be a reason for being labeled a killer.
I'd like to hear how cap and trade will significantly lower carbon emissions - note that this is different from carbon offsets and 'spurring innovation'. The last large climate change legislation passed - to subsidize ethanol production - has recently been evaluated as a poor choice that may have backfired in terms of total emissions (Science magazine letters to the editor).
| 16 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:00:51pm |
re: #9 abolitionist
Please, can someone explain the meaning of "climate killer"?
Sounds like something I wouldn't want to be accused of being. Like loner.
it's like "enemy of the people" ... not a good thing to be called in front of a mob.
| 17 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:01:33pm |
re: #15 studentpatriot
The primary driver in the US for ethanol use has been the farm state lobby, in securing federal funds for their states' economies,not as part of an overall plan to address climate change.
For decades the cry of the ethanol lobby was that using ethanol would reduce dependence on foreign oil.
| 18 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:02:05pm |
When we see real progress toward relieving the long-term misery in Haiti (not just applying a high-profile band-aid after a disaster), when people actually get it together to stop $0.12/hour wage slavery, when something more than just a nine-days' pity party comes of this kind of thing, the solution to which is no mystery (it's just one half of one little island in one little corner of a minor part of one of the world's smaller oceans), then perhaps I'll start to believe that bigger monsters can be slain.
The big criminals in Haiti are laughing at the world's outrage.
The big eco-criminals must be guffawing so hard they have to wear Depends.
| 19 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:02:33pm |
re: #10 TampaKnight
That's part of my problem with forming an opinion in this AGW debate. Many smart people have told me that the situation is dire, and the consequences of doing nothing are large. Yet when the nuclear energy idea is posed, I'm told that there are too many "potential" issues and we should develop new technology. Well- which is it? Must we act now, or wait and slowly develop unproven technology? Sure nuclear energy isn't perfect, but if drastically cutting Co2 emissions quickly is the answer, this seems to be the quickest solution.
Not being argumentative, just sayin...
You're right. We should act now, and build hundreds of nuclear power plants. But we still need to develop these other technologies. There isn't enough accessible U235 to run a world economy at U.S. levels of electricity consumption. If we wanted to have a world nuclear economy, we'd have to do it with a fuel cycle that converted the far more abundant U238 (at least 1000 times as abundant!) to plutonium which would then be fissioned.
That would be a solution to AGW, seen as a purely technical question. On the other hand---I'm not squeamish about nuclear power, but honestly, plutonium everywhere?
| 20 |
TampaKnight Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:03:44pm |
re: #19 lostlakehiker
You're right. We should act now, and build hundreds of nuclear power plants. But we still need to develop these other technologies. There isn't enough accessible U235 to run a world economy at U.S. levels of electricity consumption. If we wanted to have a world nuclear economy, we'd have to do it with a fuel cycle that converted the far more abundant U238 (at least 1000 times as abundant!) to plutonium which would then be fissioned.
That would be a solution to AGW, seen as a purely technical question. On the other hand---I'm not squeamish about nuclear power, but honestly, plutonium everywhere?
Oh, I'm not saying to do one or the other....we need multiple sources. I'm thinking short term, as in the next 10-15 years.
| 21 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:05:13pm |
re: #10 TampaKnight
That's part of my problem with forming an opinion in this AGW debate. Many smart people have told me that the situation is dire, and the consequences of doing nothing are large. Yet when the nuclear energy idea is posed, I'm told that there are too many "potential" issues and we should develop new technology. Well- which is it? Must we act now, or wait and slowly develop unproven technology? Sure nuclear energy isn't perfect, but if drastically cutting Co2 emissions quickly is the answer, this seems to be the quickest solution.
Not being argumentative, just sayin...
To me, it's amazing how much of the rest of the world is using nuclear power, but it's off the table here and has been for 30 or so years. I agree that there is no "magic" technology that is going to get us from here to there. To be weaned off oil and coal there has to be a transitional something, and that is nuclear.
| 22 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:05:57pm |
re: #18 Cato the Elder
When we see real progress toward relieving the long-term misery in Haiti (not just applying a high-profile band-aid after a disaster), when people actually get it together to stop $0.12/hour wage slavery, when something more than just a nine-days' pity party comes of this kind of thing, the solution to which is no mystery (it's just one half of one little island in one little corner of a minor part of one of the world's smaller oceans), then perhaps I'll start to believe that bigger monsters can be slain.
The big criminals in Haiti are laughing at the world's outrage.
The big eco-criminals must be guffawing so hard they have to wear Depends.
/big, huh? what is the obsession with size?
| 23 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:06:14pm |
re: #13 brookly red
/well once you factor in how many Americans would then be at the lowest levels it would really add up!
Touche! :)
| 24 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:07:22pm |
| 25 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:08:34pm |
re: #17 freetoken
The primary driver in the US for ethanol use has been the farm state lobby, in securing federal funds for their states' economies,not as part of an overall plan to address climate change.
For decades the cry of the ethanol lobby was that using ethanol would reduce dependence on foreign oil.
And reduce corn for food. Maybe that is what the poor people can buy with the extra $40 they're going to "save."
//
| 26 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:08:39pm |
re: #16 brookly red
it's like "enemy of the people" ... not a good thing to be called in front of a mob.
"You fish-faced enemy of the people!"
| 27 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:09:25pm |
re: #11 freetoken
Yeah, they stayed within the American political/social scene.
the rolling stone has been called part of "the Blame America First" crowd in the past...
| 28 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:09:43pm |
I think "studentpatriot" strayed in here by mistake. You sure you weren't looking for Freeperville?
| 29 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:10:30pm |
re: #19 lostlakehiker
You're right. We should act now, and build hundreds of nuclear power plants. But we still need to develop these other technologies. There isn't enough accessible U235 to run a world economy at U.S. levels of electricity consumption. If we wanted to have a world nuclear economy, we'd have to do it with a fuel cycle that converted the far more abundant U238 (at least 1000 times as abundant!) to plutonium which would then be fissioned.
That would be a solution to AGW, seen as a purely technical question. On the other hand---I'm not squeamish about nuclear power, but honestly, plutonium everywhere?
Upding just for not being squeamish about nuclear power!
| 30 |
lawdad Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:10:50pm |
Didn't Rolling Stone publish that fun RFK Jr. piece linking vaccines to autism?
Anyway, I'm not impressed with the article . . . just some finger-pointing, nothing really original here. Hardly a must read.
| 31 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:11:25pm |
re: #28 Cato the Elder
I think "studentpatriot" strayed in here by mistake. You sure you weren't looking for Freeperville?
/turn and face the strain...
| 32 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:12:43pm |
re: #28 Cato the Elder
Is this a thread about the Rolling Stones piece? or Haiti?
| 33 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:13:59pm |
growing corn to fed to cattle to make Big Macs is absolute folly...everybody knows that...growing corn to burn as ethanol is equally stupid...we are addicted to big corn
| 34 |
Jeff In Ohio Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:14:42pm |
re: #1 TampaKnight
re: energy solutions:
Here's a link I've posted before from the Heritage Foundation on the state of Nuclear Energy in the US. It's a few years old.
[Link: www.heritage.org...]
Here's a rather fascinating Science Friday/NPR interview with eSolar's CEO on the energy plant they won the contract to build in China. eSolar takes a counter intuitive approach to solar power plants scaling them to fit on less then 200 acres of land while leveraging the current state of the grid. He makes some serious claims about their technology.
[Link: www.npr.org...]
Here's a couple of interesting article that have run in the Atlantic the last few months:
California Energy Policy
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
Green Housingin New Orleans
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
New Fuel Cell Technology
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
| 35 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:14:44pm |
re: #33 albusteve
growing corn to fed to cattle to make Big Macs is absolute folly...everybody knows that...growing corn to burn as ethanol is equally stupid...we are addicted to big corn
white lightning!
| 36 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:16:43pm |
re: #33 albusteve
growing corn to fed to cattle to make Big Macs is absolute folly...everybody knows that...growing corn to burn as ethanol is equally stupid...we are addicted to big corn
It's good on the grill, though.
| 37 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:16:53pm |
| 38 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:17:06pm |
re: #19 lostlakehiker
SNIP
On the other hand---I'm not squeamish about nuclear power, but honestly, plutonium everywhere?
Fuck it. Let our kids and our kid's kids and our kid's kid's kids and....handle the problem.
| 39 |
robdouth Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:18:17pm |
re: #12 windsagio
There are a lot of potential gains with solar and wind as well, if we can deal with the Nimbys. Nuclear has its place, but its not the silver bullet some people think it is. It probably also has a place tho' >>
With current technology however, you get a hell of a lot more bang for your buck with Nuclear. So that is what his question specifically was about: Is it dire, do we act now given our technological limitations and aim for however man nuclear plants ASAP, or do "deal with the Nimbys" and take our time developing what you are even admitting is not go-ready technology. You missed the crux of the question.
| 41 |
Jeff In Ohio Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:18:52pm |
re: #33 albusteve
growing corn to fed to cattle to make Big Macs is absolute folly...everybody knows that...growing corn to burn as ethanol is equally stupid...we are addicted to big corn
| 42 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:18:54pm |
re: #38 ryannon
SNIP
Fuck it. Let our kids and our kid's kids and our kid's kid's kids and...handle the problem.
what does the deficit have to do with this?
| 43 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:21:02pm |
re: #33 albusteve
growing corn to fed to cattle to make Big Macs is absolute folly...everybody knows that...growing corn to burn as ethanol is equally stupid...we are addicted to big corn
The Great Cornholio.
| 44 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:21:09pm |
| 45 |
robdouth Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:21:21pm |
re: #19 lostlakehiker
You're right. We should act now, and build hundreds of nuclear power plants. But we still need to develop these other technologies. There isn't enough accessible U235 to run a world economy at U.S. levels of electricity consumption. If we wanted to have a world nuclear economy, we'd have to do it with a fuel cycle that converted the far more abundant U238 (at least 1000 times as abundant!) to plutonium which would then be fissioned.
That would be a solution to AGW, seen as a purely technical question. On the other hand---I'm not squeamish about nuclear power, but honestly, plutonium everywhere?
Yeah I say plutonium everywhere. Plants aren't made like Chernobyl and TMI anymore. There are many better designs. Let's make a giant international agreement which can jump start the economy. Train for the new green jobs (nuclear could provide a number of them) and then continue to invest in the other technologies that may not be ready right this second. The funny thing is that if Obama actually put a plan like that out there, the right would bitch because it's Obama, and the left would bitch because some of the hard left environmentalists won't change their mind on Nuclear.
| 46 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:23:22pm |
re: #32 studentpatriot
Is this a thread about the Rolling Stones piece? or Haiti?
This is a thread about identifying and solving problems. Since the threat of climate change is as much about economic justice as anything else, I was pointing out that if we can't even work that out for Haiti, fat chance of anything mo bigga happenin'.
By the way, how long does it take to graduate from being a student patriot to a certified one? And what kinds of jobs can you get with the degree?
| 47 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:23:41pm |
re: #38 ryannon
SNIP
Fuck it. Let our kids and our kid's kids and our kid's kid's kids and...handle the problem.
No, to "Our Children's Children's Children>"
(enjoy some Moody Blues) :)
| 48 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:25:34pm |
| 49 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:27:29pm |
| 50 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:27:43pm |
re: #46 Cato the Elder
He’s going to have to acknowledge a few difficult truths.
The first of those truths is that we don’t know how to use aid to reduce poverty. Over the past few decades, the world has spent trillions of dollars to generate growth in the developing world. The countries that have not received much aid, like China, have seen tremendous growth and tremendous poverty reductions. The countries that have received aid, like Haiti, have not.
In the recent anthology “What Works in Development?,” a group of economists try to sort out what we’ve learned. The picture is grim. There are no policy levers that consistently correlate to increased growth. There is nearly zero correlation between how a developing economy does one decade and how it does the next. There is no consistently proven way to reduce corruption. Even improving governing institutions doesn’t seem to produce the expected results.
| 51 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:29:04pm |
Well, looks like it is going to start raining here on Sunday, and rain for the entire week. This is an El nino winter, which is associated with increased winter precipitation out here.
re: #18 Cato the Elder
I guess you are pointing out that human self-interest makes addressing any large scale social problem impossible. This is why being a Doomer is very easy - you don't have to make anything up, you just accept what is demonstrably self-centered behavior that can be demonstrated over and over again, by simply observing human behavior.
However, I maintain that being a Doomer is still a choice.
| 52 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:29:21pm |
re: #50 studentpatriot
you should read up on the war on poverty right here...
| 53 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:31:41pm |
re: #51 freetoken
I guess you are pointing out that human self-interest makes addressing any large scale social problem impossible. This is why being a Doomer is very easy - you don't have to make anything up, you just accept what is demonstrably self-centered behavior that can be demonstrated over and over again, by simply observing human behavior.
However, I maintain that being a Doomer is still a choice.
You guess wrong.
But feel free to label me a "Doomer" if it tickles your testi...ness.
| 54 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:32:59pm |
re: #53 Cato the Elder
/is Cato the starry eyed optimist better?
| 56 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:35:09pm |
Which Poverty-Fighting Policies Work? J-PAL Has the Answer
Every year, wealthy countries and donors ship billions upon billions of dollars in aid to the developing world. The money has not bought prosperity: Diarrhea still kills 1.5 million children annually. More than 210 million kids work when they should be in a classroom. Polio, which had once been eradicated in all but four countries, is spreading across
Africa again. Some 2.6 billion people have no access to modern toilets. And more than 1 billion people don't have enough to eat in 2009, setting a new record.
Why? From an unremarkable old building overlooking the Charles River in Cambridge, Massachusetts, a trio of MIT economists is leading a remarkable global movement that's working to find out. "A lot of money gets spent by well-meaning people with no idea what they're doing," says Abhijit Banerjee, who has spent much of his career studying corruption. "It's wasted."
| 57 |
MandyManners Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:36:01pm |
Oh, no. CNN is reporting that medical personnel are being ordered to evacuate by the U.N. due to fear of riots and the sound of gunshot in the distance.
| 58 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:36:28pm |
re: #50 studentpatriot
The problem with "aid" as defined by David Brooks is that it's intentionally designed to keep just enough of the population above starvation level to provide the cheapest possible labor for Wal-Mart.
There are models that work, such as micro-loans, but they're not popular because they reduce the available pool of $0.12/hour wage slaves that America and other rich nations need to maintain their standard of living while also paying people here at home next to nothing.
| 59 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:36:48pm |
re: #55 freetoken
Own your Doomer-ness!
Your Doomerness? sounds like some kind of title... yes your doomerness, no your doomerness...
| 60 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:37:15pm |
re: #57 MandyManners
Oh, no. CNN is reporting that medical personnel are being ordered to evacuate by the U.N. due to fear of riots and the sound of gunshot in the distance.
of course...that's easy to predict...the Marines may have to fight their way in to deliver aid
| 61 |
RogueOne Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:37:22pm |
OT: Just needed to jump on and tell everyone the missionary friends of the folks have all been accounted for, including the 3 kids who were missing the first day of the quake. Good for them!
| 63 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:38:24pm |
re: #57 MandyManners
Oh, no. CNN is reporting that medical personnel are being ordered to evacuate by the U.N. due to fear of riots and the sound of gunshot in the distance.
Not good.
I heard that Haiti has turned over operations of their airport to U.S. personnel. Pretty soon the U.S. National Guard may be running a lot more over there.
| 64 |
robdouth Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:38:27pm |
re: #53 Cato the Elder
You guess wrong.
But feel free to label me a "Doomer" if it tickles your testi...ness.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse in your explanation in #18. You think that until they reject the .12c an hour slave wage, etc. etc., but I would argue that the 12 cents is a result of poor management of their country and the fact that it's such a screwed up place to live with no opportunities, that people are willing to work for .12c because they have no other options. Indian workers work for wages that in the U.S. would be considered "slave labor" wages, but it's all relative to what you can buy with that money. I know the international borderline for poverty is less than a dollar a day, but you can't get the full picture until you know what the symbolic "basket of goods" cost in a certain place. If it costs 50% less in India, then 50% wages when comparing India to the U.S. is not unreasonable. Granted, no matter how cheap stuff is in Haiti, 12 cents is ridiculous, but you get the picture I'm painting here.
| 65 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:40:27pm |
re: #63 Racer X
Not good.
I heard that Haiti has turned over operations of their airport to U.S. personnel. Pretty soon the U.S. National Guard may be running a lot more over there.
not alot more...everything...people underestimate the situation I think...it will take an entire division, armed and ready to kill to maintain order alone...the Haitians are extremely desperate people
| 66 |
robdouth Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:41:03pm |
re: #58 Cato the Elder
The problem with "aid" as defined by David Brooks is that it's intentionally designed to keep just enough of the population above starvation level to provide the cheapest possible labor for Wal-Mart.
There are models that work, such as micro-loans, but they're not popular because they reduce the available pool of $0.12/hour wage slaves that America and other rich nations need to maintain their standard of living while also paying people here at home next to nothing.
Intentionally designed. That sounds way to conspiracy theory to buy into. If that were true, we'd buy, or have all our products made in Haiti, but we get the vast majority of our imports from China. Granted they make less, but they are growing in wealth and those .12c/hr jobs are replaced as the country gets wealthier and you grow a middle class.
| 67 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:41:50pm |
re: #57 MandyManners
Oh, no. CNN is reporting that medical personnel are being ordered to evacuate by the U.N. due to fear of riots and the sound of gunshot in the distance.
more Marines... less UN. IMHO.re: #63 Racer X
Not good.
I heard that Haiti has turned over operations of their airport to U.S. personnel. Pretty soon the U.S. National Guard may be running a lot more over there.
and unlike some disaster stricken places that will remain unnamed the local authorities will actually allow them in. spit.
| 68 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:42:07pm |
Well, NCDC released today their preliminary analysis of December global temperatures, along with an annual anlaysis:
The 2009 calendar year (January-December) map of temperature anomalies shows warmer-than-average conditions across most of the globe's surface area, with the exception of cooler-than-average conditions across central Russia, southern Canada, north central contiguous U.S., and the higher-latitude southern oceans, and along the eastern North Pacific Ocean. The combined global land and ocean surface temperature for the year tied with 2006 as the fifth warmest January-December period on record. This value is 0.56°C (1.01°F) above the 20th century average.
The annual global report is here. Will put in spinoffs.
| 69 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:43:35pm |
re: #58 Cato the Elder
See post 56 - Very smart people at MIT are doing large scale, borderline unethical (would be frowned upon in the U.S.) controlled experiments to determine what works for alleviating poverty. Micro-finance is definitely part of the solution, but is not the total answer (see Brooks piece) or else Bill Gates could give every poor person 10,000 USD and solve the problem tomorrow.
America does not need slave labor to enjoy it's standard of living - we actually raise the living standards of most countries with which we do business.
| 70 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:44:14pm |
re: #65 albusteve
not alot more...everything...people underestimate the situation I think...it will take an entire division, armed and ready to kill to maintain order alone...the Haitians are extremely desperate people
The sad part is they were desperate before the earthquake. Despite the long time presence of the U.N.
| 71 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:44:30pm |
re: #12 windsagio
Nuclear has the capacity advantage & is the more proven technology. Solar and wind are bit players, even after you install a lot of acreage. Imagine a solar plant the size of San Onofre. How much power could it make, even if you have sunny weather? Unfortunately the environmental movement is a serious obstacle to wind farms and solar farms.
| 72 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:45:01pm |
re: #70 Racer X
The sad part is they were desperate before the earthquake. Despite the long time presence of the U.N.
me belly full but me angry still...
| 73 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:45:57pm |
re: #63 Racer X
Not good.
I heard that Haiti has turned over operations of their airport to U.S. personnel. Pretty soon the U.S. National Guard may be running a lot more over there.
That would be a welcome development.
| 74 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:46:17pm |
From the NCDC annual report for 2009:
The 2000-2009 decade is the warmest on record, with an average global surface temperature of 0.54°C (0.96°F) above the 20th century average. This shattered the 1990s value of 0.36°C (0.65°F).
Ooops... so much for the right-wing meme that we've been cooling for 10 years...
| 75 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:47:21pm |
re: #69 studentpatriot
America does not need slave labor to enjoy it's standard of living - we actually raise the living standards of most countries with which we do business.
now if we could just figure out how to do that at home...
| 76 |
Beany Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:49:27pm |
re: #4 brookly red
Seriously, I go to Rolling Stone for good, solid, impartial science every time!
| 77 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:50:24pm |
re: #70 Racer X
The sad part is they were desperate before the earthquake. Despite the long time presence of the U.N.
I hate the UN...they are part of the problem rather than the solution...you want a govt down there?...send the COEs of a few successful corporations down there for a while to see what's going on...but first some police force will have to go house to house, ready to kill, to disarm the entire island...gangsters and thugs will have to be dealt with harshly....as many woman and children as possible should be shipped off elsewhere...absolute order will have to be maintained to allow reconstruction and rehabilitation...every dollar accounted for etc etc...the UN can do non of that, they are just in the way...toss the lot of them off the island and start from scratch
| 78 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:51:57pm |
Further proof that Charles was smart to get out of Pajamas Media....
One Massachusetts Poll That Democrats Shouldn't Panic About
for the love of God, don't worry about the Pajamas Media poll which reports a 15 point lead for Scott Brown, which I'm not going to do the favor of posting a link to.The poll was conducted by a firm connected with the Black Rock Group, which bills itself as a "strategic communications and public affairs firm" and whose chief spokesman/strategist, Carl Forti, just so happens to be the spokesman for this polling firm that nobody has ever heard of and just so happens (as David Dayen dutifully reports) to be the spokesman for a big pharma lobbying group that's pushed the death panels meme and just so happens to be the lead PR flak for Pajamas Media.
The polling firm also has almost no track record and the one poll they did issue showed New Hampshire Governor John Lynch with just a 44/38 (+6) approval rating whereas every other pollster in that state shows Lynch at between a +20 and a +43. So, if you account for their roughly 25-point GOP house effect, a poll showing Martha Coakley only 15 points down might be just about the best news she's gotten all week.
| 79 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:51:58pm |
re: #77 albusteve
I hate the UN...they are part of the problem rather than the solution...you want a govt down there?...send the COEs of a few successful corporations down there for a while to see what's going on...but first some police force will have to go house to house, ready to kill, to disarm the entire island...gangsters and thugs will have to be dealt with harshly...as many woman and children as possible should be shipped off elsewhere...absolute order will have to be maintained to allow reconstruction and rehabilitation...every dollar accounted for etc etc...the UN can do non of that, they are just in the way...toss the lot of them off the island and start from scratch
f' it lets start by handing every member of congress a shovel & send them.
| 80 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:53:08pm |
re: #70 Racer X
The sad part is they were desperate before the earthquake. Despite the long time presence of the U.N.
There are no easy fixes and solutions. For hundreds of thousands of years Homo Sapiens lived on the edge of extinction. There's a natural tendancy to forget how hard it has been to get where we are - and to ignore how difficult it may be to ensure our survival. If there is a Creator somewhere, I sure hope he has a master plan. It's becoming increasingly clear we're going to need one....
| 81 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:53:30pm |
re: #79 brookly red
f' it lets start by handing every member of congress a shovel & send them.
my nails!
my nails!
| 82 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:53:31pm |
When NASA GISS release their global annual temperature summary, I'm expecting it to rank 2009 as one notch higher than the NCDC, as 4th warmest. Possibly even third.
This is because they use a slightly different algorithm than the NCDC, and weight certain data differently.
However, it should be noted that these rankings of years are being done on the least significant digit, with the differences among the years being the least amount of difference possible, e.g., .01 degrees C.
The years and the average anomalies:
2005 0.62
1998 0.60
2003 0.58
2002 0.57
2009 0.56
2006 0.56
2007 0.55
2004 0.54
What is more important is the decadal numbers, which show large and very meaningful changes. AGW changes are often referred to on a decadal time scale, in order to ignore the shorter term fluctuations (such as the El Nino/La Nina cycle).
| 83 |
Gus Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:56:43pm |
Yes, some may not like that this refers to an article in the Rolling Stone but the article is accurate.
| 84 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:56:50pm |
re: #65 albusteve
not alot more...everything...people underestimate the situation I think...it will take an entire division, armed and ready to kill to maintain order alone...the Haitians are extremely desperate people
Hope someone thought to bring along riot gear and not just live ammo, in case it's necessary to hammer the locals.
| 85 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:58:11pm |
sorry to say it, but too few people care about GW to make anything substantial happen....too many self interests, too much politics, too many deniers...we will piddle along as usual and see how it goes...it's too late...between big energy and the green weenies we're fucked...all the debate and hoopla will make no difference...get used to it and all the drivel, alarmism, and crackpot science that goes with it...it will never get sorted out
| 86 |
MandyManners Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:58:45pm |
re: #79 brookly red
f' it lets start by handing every member of congress a shovel & send them.
You'd inflict *that* on those poor Haitians?
| 87 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:58:52pm |
re: #84 The Sanity Inspector
Hope someone thought to bring along riot gear and not just live ammo, in case it's necessary to hammer the locals.
Obama will get away with it. Could you imagine the outrage if . . . . . never mind.
| 88 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:59:04pm |
re: #83 Gus 802
Yes, some may not like that this refers to an article in the Rolling Stone but the article is accurate.
the facts mean less than the source nowdays....notice?
| 89 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:59:05pm |
What would the biggest best success story for the UN be in terms of operations in failed states? What is their record really like? Not good at all. Yes they save many lives, but only to have those very same lives in terrible peril far too soon. Like the second they leave. Sometimes before, as in Somalia.
| 90 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 3:59:50pm |
re: #86 MandyManners
You'd inflict *that* on those poor Haitians?
No spit. Nancy would spend her time admonishing the locals for not referring to her as "your highness".
| 91 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:00:39pm |
re: #84 The Sanity Inspector
Hope someone thought to bring along riot gear and not just live ammo, in case it's necessary to hammer the locals.
imagine when a gunfight breaks out and the Marines clip somebody....this whole thing is a real horror
| 92 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:00:45pm |
re: #71 Rightwingconspirator
Nuclear has the capacity advantage & is the more proven technology. Solar and wind are bit players, even after you install a lot of acreage. Imagine a solar plant the size of San Onofre. How much power could it make, even if you have sunny weather? Unfortunately the environmental movement is a serious obstacle to wind farms and solar farms.
Some hypothetical answers to your hypothetical question:
A few years ago, scientists began to calculate just how much energy the Sahara holds. They were astounded at the answer. In theory, a 35,000-sq.-mi. (90,600 sq km) chunk of the Sahara — smaller than Portugal and a little over 1% of its total area — could yield the same amount of electricity as all the world's power plants combined. A smaller square of 6,000 sq. mi. (15,500 sq km) — about the size of Connecticut — could provide electricity for Europe's 500 million people. "I admit I was skeptical until I did the calculations myself," says Michael Pawlyn, director of Exploration Architecture, one of three British environmental companies comprising the Sahara Forest Project, which is testing solar plants in Oman and the United Arab Emirates. Pawlyn calls the Sahara's potential "staggering."
Read more:
[Link: www.time.com...]
| 93 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:01:53pm |
re: #90 Racer X
No spit. Nancy would spend her time admonishing the locals for not referring to her as "your highness".
you do know what a "Haitian Necktie" is, don't you?
| 94 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:02:07pm |
re: #89 Rightwingconspirator
What would the biggest best success story for the UN be in terms of operations in failed states? What is their record really like? Not good at all. Yes they save many lives, but only to have those very same lives in terrible peril far too soon. Like the second they leave. Sometimes before, as in Somalia.
the UN thrives on conflict, hardship and human suffering....it's a business...I hate the UN, say what you will
| 95 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:02:24pm |
re: #87 Racer X
Obama will get away with it. Could you imagine the outrage if . . . never mind.
It will be very interesting to see what Obama does. I have some hope that he will do something meaningful, beyond simply dealing with the current tragedy.
| 96 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:02:44pm |
Tre: #89 Rightwingconspirator
Given that the UN has a history of some troops who are known child molesters, I hate to picture them roaming the streets of Haiti, where the victims have already suffered enough.
| 97 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:03:32pm |
| 98 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:03:39pm |
re: #86 MandyManners
You'd inflict *that* on those poor Haitians?
*sigh* some one has to make the tough calls...
| 99 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:04:08pm |
re: #84 The Sanity Inspector
Scratch the ' in case '.... the worst case has already materialized. They are hacking each other in the streets with machetes, according to news reports.
| 100 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:04:09pm |
| 101 |
Gus Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:04:36pm |
re: #88 albusteve
the facts mean less than the source nowdays...notice?
Let me put it this way. I've seen some of the people mentioned in this article in my own research outside of AGW. This includes the last mentioned Koch brothers. I really didn't need Rolling Stone to tell me that the people mentioned have far less than their own selfish interests in mind. Besides, they also list Dick Gephardt and Sen. Mary Landrieu (D).
| 102 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:05:39pm |
re: #95 Bagua
It will be very interesting to see what Obama does. I have some hope that he will do something meaningful, beyond simply dealing with the current tragedy.
I'm confident he will. It is already looking to be a much better response than what we did in Indonesia.
I can't help but wonder - where are the Cubans and South Americans?
| 103 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:05:49pm |
| 104 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:06:16pm |
re: #85 albusteve
sorry to say it, but too few people care about GW to make anything substantial happen...too many self interests, too much politics, too many deniers...we will piddle along as usual and see how it goes...it's too late...between big energy and the green weenies we're fucked...all the debate and hoopla will make no difference...get used to it and all the drivel, alarmism, and crackpot science that goes with it...it will never get sorted out
Is that you, Your Doomerness?
| 105 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:07:06pm |
re: #102 Racer X
I'm confident he will. It is already looking to be a much better response than what we did in Indonesia.
I can't help but wonder - where are the Cubans and South Americans?
what assets do they have?...outside of maybe Brazil?
| 106 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:07:24pm |
| 107 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:09:05pm |
re: #86 MandyMannersU
They're soo totally all about health care..... let's send them down there as gofers for Docs-sans-borders to see what it's really about.
Then , we hitch them to a team of oxen, and have them pull in thousand gallon drums of fresh water from the mountains of the D.R.
| 108 |
TampaKnight Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:09:37pm |
America's emphasis on defense is always ridiculed and mocked internationally until there is a crisis, at which point we're the first ones called to do something since we're the only ones with the large scale assets to make a difference.
| 110 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:09:51pm |
| 111 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:09:54pm |
re: #104 ryannon
Is that you, Your Doomerness?
it's the way it is...all the rhetoric doesn't get anything accomplished...why, by now, aren't there vast solar farms in the Mojave?....or desal plants all along the coast of CA?...Hyperions dotting the landscape?....the will is not there
| 112 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:09:59pm |
re: #107 tradewind
U
They're soo totally all about health care... let's send them down there as gofers for Docs-sans-borders to see what it's really about.
Then , we hitch them to a team of oxen, and have them pull in thousand gallon drums of fresh water from the mountains of the D.R.
And is that you, Pol Pot?
| 113 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:11:00pm |
Uhh....I want to link to something but I can't get a google cache. Is it better to use a tinyurl or link to a google search?
| 114 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:11:51pm |
re: #111 albusteve
it's the way it is...all the rhetoric doesn't get anything accomplished...why, by now, aren't there vast solar farms in the Mojave?...or desal plants all along the coast of CA?...Hyperions dotting the landscape?...the will is not there
Not yet, anyway. Or not enough. It's a very dicey situation, a real crap-shoot.
| 115 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:12:41pm |
| 116 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:13:04pm |
re: #114 ryannon
Not yet, anyway. Or not enough. It's a very dicey situation, a real crap-shoot.
what's a crap shoot?...is there a crisis or not?....you gonna talk it to death til you get your cut?
| 117 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:14:39pm |
re: #116 albusteve
what's a crap shoot?...is there a crisis or not?...you gonna talk it to death til you get your cut?
Easy there, Big Fellow.
A crap-shoot in the sense that our survival as a species is neither predictable nor assured. We could lose, and lose big.
| 118 |
TampaKnight Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:14:45pm |
Random question- if our military is delivering aid and meets armed militia, as has been reported, do they have authority to engage?
| 119 |
abolitionist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:14:52pm |
re: #102 Racer X
I'm confident he will. It is already looking to be a much better response than what we did in Indonesia.
I can't help but wonder - where are the Cubans and South Americans?
I read in some recent news reports that Cuba is re-assigning to Haiti some of its doctors and other medical personel that it has deployed (for goodwill purposes) throughout Central and South America.
| 120 |
Martinsmithy Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:15:03pm |
This is a pretty good "J'Accuse."
I'm surprised and disappointed that Warren Buffett is in with this crowd.
The best insult regarding George Will I've run across was from Kurt Vonnegut, who after Will criticized Slaughterhouse Five referred to George as an "owlish nitwit."
| 121 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:15:39pm |
re: #117 ryannon
Easy there, Big Fellow.
A crap-shoot in the sense that our survival as a species is neither predictable nor assured. We could lose, and lose big.
by doing nothing or moving to fast?...I don't get you
| 122 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:15:47pm |
re: #112 ryannon
Oh, lighten up. You mean you don't think Congress should work harder?
(And most Pols are Pots, who spend way too much time griping about Kettles.)
| 123 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:16:13pm |
| 124 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:16:25pm |
re: #118 TampaKnight
Random question- if our military is delivering aid and meets armed militia, as has been reported, do they have authority to engage?
/well only after reading them their rights... in French.
| 125 |
worknhard Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:17:01pm |
Now the Rolling Stone is a science magazine?
| 126 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:17:01pm |
re: #119 abolitionist
Well, Cuba is definitely the go-to country when it comes to health care. Michael Moore says so.//
| 127 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:17:09pm |
re: #18 Cato the Elder
When we see real progress toward relieving the long-term misery in Haiti (not just applying a high-profile band-aid after a disaster), when people actually get it together to stop $0.12/hour wage slavery, when something more than just a nine-days' pity party comes of this kind of thing, the solution to which is no mystery (it's just one half of one little island in one little corner of a minor part of one of the world's smaller oceans), then perhaps I'll start to believe that bigger monsters can be slain.
The big criminals in Haiti are laughing at the world's outrage.
The big eco-criminals must be guffawing so hard they have to wear Depends.
As these things go, unfortunately, sometimes it takes a huge crisis to shine the light on a long term problem.
One positive thing that can come out of the situation in Haiti is that it may bring in real ongoing help that will have long term effects. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Here are two private projects going on in New Orleans.
[Link: www.makeitrightnola.org...] (Brad Pitt)
[Link: www.globalgreen.org...]
| 128 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:18:08pm |
re: #125 worknhard
Now the Rolling Stone is a science magazine?
it's not a music magazine, that's for sure
| 129 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:18:38pm |
re: #122 tradewind
Oh, lighten up. You mean you don't think Congress should work harder?
(And most Pols are Pots, who spend way too much time griping about Kettles.)
I thought I was being pretty light. You were the one talking about using a certain class of people - whether you like them or not - as oxen to transport thousand-gallon drums of water. But ok, I guess I just didn't get the humor - as you didn't mine.
| 130 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:19:22pm |
For those who are duped into supporting Ron Paul's efforts to undermine the Federal Reserve: Zionist Bankers Loot America
(I used a tinyurl. Charles, feel free to delete if that's a problem)
| 131 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:19:39pm |
re: #121 albusteve
by doing nothing or moving to fast?...I don't get you
Sigh. I was agreeing with you.
| 132 |
ArchangelMichael Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:19:53pm |
re: #130 Killgore Trout
For those who are duped into supporting Ron Paul's efforts to undermine the Federal Reserve: Zionist Bankers Loot America
(I used a tinyurl. Charles, feel free to delete if that's a problem)
Needed this one thread down a couple of hours ago.
| 134 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:22:18pm |
re: #131 ryannon
Sigh. I was agreeing with you.
oh...that's pretty rare, so I don't know what it looks like
| 135 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:22:40pm |
re: #125 worknhard
Well..... a lot of emphasis on organic chem...., and usually a good deal of anatomy as well.
Also, I'm kind of hooked on the song.
| 136 |
What, me worry? Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:22:59pm |
re: #130 Killgore Trout
For those who are duped into supporting Ron Paul's efforts to undermine the Federal Reserve: Zionist Bankers Loot America
(I used a tinyurl. Charles, feel free to delete if that's a problem)
Ack. I need a shower.
| 137 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:23:22pm |
re: #132 ArchangelMichael
Needed this one thread down a couple of hours ago.
I saw that but decided to let it slide. It's frustrating that people are duped into supporting insane Paulian economic policies but it doesn't do much good to debate with them. They're stuck like that and it's usually not an issue of logic. They can't help it.
| 138 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:24:19pm |
re: #135 tradewind
Well... a lot of emphasis on organic chem..., and usually a good deal of anatomy as well.
Also, I'm kind of hooked on the song.[Video]
I saw them do that....had to suffer through those goofballs waiting for James Gang (Arie Crown Theater, Chicago)
| 139 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:24:42pm |
re: #92 ryannon
How much would security against Islamist nutcases add to the cost per kilowatt?
How much would the nations of the Sahara tax the use of the otherwise useless desert?
How much would it cost to construct power lines all the way to Europe and elsewhere?
How much cheaper might it be locally, for Sahara areas, to ask Russia and China, via North Korea and Iran, to help them build a nuclear reactor that would be much more profitable and fun to play with?
While on the subject of imaginary easy energy solutions, how about an orbiting solar array, crossing no borders (microwave transmission in case anyone asks)?
| 140 |
The Shadow Do Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:25:39pm |
I see energy sector executives and investors have their 'most wanted' posters hung among the pols, panderers and pundits in the Rolling Stone line up.
Ironic since that is exactly the sector in which any future energy solution will be found.
Or we can all be Haitians...
| 141 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:26:10pm |
re: #139 Naso Tang
How much would security against Islamist nutcases add to the cost per kilowatt?
How much would the nations of the Sahara tax the use of the otherwise useless desert?
How much would it cost to construct power lines all the way to Europe and elsewhere?
How much cheaper might it be locally, for Sahara areas, to ask Russia and China, via North Korea and Iran, to help them build a nuclear reactor that would be much more profitable and fun to play with?
While on the subject of imaginary easy energy solutions, how about an orbiting solar array, crossing no borders (microwave transmission in case anyone asks)?
Naso, you isotope you
| 142 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:26:11pm |
re: #125 worknhard
Now the Rolling Stone is a science magazine?
political science is still science...
| 143 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:27:21pm |
re: #140 The Shadow Do
Not all energy sector CEO's make a list like the one created by RollingStones.
However, the men the RS did include are infamous for their funding of denial-land.
| 144 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:27:35pm |
| 145 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:27:35pm |
re: #139 Naso Tang
How much would security against Islamist nutcases add to the cost per kilowatt?
How much would the nations of the Sahara tax the use of the otherwise useless desert?
How much would it cost to construct power lines all the way to Europe and elsewhere?
How much cheaper might it be locally, for Sahara areas, to ask Russia and China, via North Korea and Iran, to help them build a nuclear reactor that would be much more profitable and fun to play with?
While on the subject of imaginary easy energy solutions, how about an orbiting solar array, crossing no borders (microwave transmission in case anyone asks)?
Is that you, Nicola Tesla?
By the way, I was just relaying information. Don't shoot the messenger, and all that....
| 146 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:27:49pm |
| 147 |
worknhard Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:27:52pm |
re: #139 Naso Tang
How about a solar powered Stirling engine generator.
| 148 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:28:58pm |
| 149 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:28:58pm |
re: #144 Naso Tang
I tend to fission randomly.
just keep your cool and don't melt down...I like your glowing posts btw
| 152 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:30:16pm |
re: #145 ryannon
Is that you, Nicola Tesla?
By the way, I was just relaying information. Don't shoot the messenger, and all that...
You adopt it, you own it :=)
| 153 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:30:46pm |
| 154 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:34:10pm |
| 155 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:34:49pm |
| 156 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:34:50pm |
re: #145 ryannon
'Lie back on zee couch, and tell us... why zee fasceenation weeth random assignation of names to zee strangers '?//
| 157 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:34:59pm |
re: #147 worknhard
How about a solar powered Stirling engine generator.
Great. You could run your cell phone on that and after deducting the cost of WD40 you could save enough to buy a solar charger.
Just kidding; you probably couldn't afford the solar charger. No government subsidy.
// Chuckle.
| 158 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:35:28pm |
meanwhile Tiger will learn to...just stifle the stiffy!
| 159 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:35:30pm |
re: #153 brookly red
' kay, I'll take ' unholy' for a thousand, Alex.
Make it stop/
| 160 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:36:12pm |
| 161 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:36:14pm |
re: #156 tradewind
'Lie back on zee couch, and tell us... why zee fasceenation weeth random assignation of names to zee strangers '?//
Too easy, Zigmund.
| 163 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:36:46pm |
re: #158 albusteve
Hey... If you're stuck in the piney woods of H'burg, that's not usually a problem.////
Not a lot of stimulation there.
Well, maybe they should keep him away from USM, but other than that......
:)
| 164 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:36:52pm |
| 165 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:37:38pm |
re: #161 ryannon
There you go then.... take up a more challenging hobby.
| 166 |
abolitionist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:38:15pm |
re: #139 Naso Tang
1) too much
2) too much
3) too much
4) has potential
5) For one thing, when there is 18000+ miles between microwave transmitter and receiver (for energy transfer, not communications), the size(s) of those structures required are pretty big.
| 167 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:38:49pm |
re: #115 brookly red
never saw it... but the traditional recipe is to put half a beer can of petrol into an old tire, place the tire around someones neck & give em a light.
There is also a strong cultural symbolism with neckties. As part of his method preserving his dictatorship, 'Papa Doc' Duvalier was very adept at using symbolism from Haitian Voodoo. Duvalier would dress up in a black top hat and coat, the same way as the powerful spirit Baron Samedi.
Likewise he formed a sort of republican guard called the Tonton Macoutes, also named after a cultural archetype, the boogyman. The Macoutes would wear blue denim and a red necktie, the outfit of the Voodoo spirit of agriculture.
| 168 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:41:17pm |
re: #167 Bagua
There is also a strong cultural symbolism with neckties. As part of his method preserving his dictatorship, 'Papa Doc' Duvalier was very adept at using symbolism from Haitian Voodoo. Duvalier would dress up in a black top hat and coat, the same way as the powerful spirit Baron Samedi.
Likewise he formed a sort of republican guard called the Tonton Macoutes, also named after a cultural archetype, the boogyman. The Macoutes would wear blue denim and a red necktie, the outfit of the Voodoo spirit of agriculture.
crap... and all this time I thought they were from the Nation of Islam.
| 169 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:41:52pm |
re: #167 Bagua
There is also a strong cultural symbolism with neckties. As part of his method preserving his dictatorship, 'Papa Doc' Duvalier was very adept at using symbolism from Haitian Voodoo. Duvalier would dress up in a black top hat and coat, the same way as the powerful spirit Baron Samedi.
Likewise he formed a sort of republican guard called the Tonton Macoutes, also named after a cultural archetype, the boogyman. The Macoutes would wear blue denim and a red necktie, the outfit of the Voodoo spirit of agriculture.
Given your posts the other day/evening, it's clear that you really know a lot about Voodoo.
And no, I'm not being confrontational.
| 170 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:43:04pm |
re: #162 worknhard
What about up-scaling?
Seriously however, Stirling engines are a great solution, from an Engineer's perspective (I'm an engineer in the final analysis, I'm afraid).
However, it is has many parts that move and all that and in truth it has been around a long long time and revolutionized nothing.
As we are speaking globally here, solid state is the way to go for the future. No WD40 required, and potentially much better efficiencies, when it comes to solar power that is.
Now, geothermal conversion is another animal...
| 171 |
tradewind Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:44:37pm |
Off to squeeze some lime in de coconut and drink it right down.//
(Don't be hateful to each other re Haiti , lizards... they need zero snark and much prayer.**
**until the supplies can get in there, anyway)
| 172 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:45:14pm |
I cannot understand the nihilism of AGW denial by these people. It's just insane.
| 173 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:46:08pm |
re: #170 Naso Tang
Now, geothermal conversion is another animal...
And those little petroleum-secreting genetically modified algae?
| 174 |
studentpatriot Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:48:00pm |
re: #170 Naso Tang
Doesn't George Bush have a geothermal powered house in Crawford? I wonder if anyone ever interviewed him about how well it works...?
| 175 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:48:35pm |
re: #166 abolitionist
1) too much
2) too much
3) too much
4) has potential
5) For one thing, when there is 18000+ miles between microwave transmitter and receiver (for energy transfer, not communications), the size(s) of those structures required are pretty big.
Where is your ambition? Actually, I think it is about 22,000 miles, but the size of the structures on the ground are quite manageable. The problem is in the present state of launch cost per kilo.
| 177 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:51:03pm |
re: #174 studentpatriot
Doesn't George Bush have a geothermal powered house in Crawford? I wonder if anyone ever interviewed him about how well it works...?
I don't think they care. They would like you to forget about that.
| 178 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:51:33pm |
re: #174 studentpatriot
Doesn't George Bush have a geothermal powered house in Crawford? I wonder if anyone ever interviewed him about how well it works...?
Few would want to listen to an idea from the Evvvil George W Bush. Moonbat heads would explode at the very thought.
| 179 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:53:26pm |
re: #178 Dark_Falcon
Few would want to listen to an idea from the Evvvil George W Bush. Moonbat heads would explode at the very thought.
well in all fairness Obama seems to be listening as far as foreign policy goes...
and yes there are bat brains every where...
| 180 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:53:53pm |
re: #173 ryannon
And those little petroleum-secreting genetically modified algae?
Times are tough around here when you have to answer your own questions:
[Link: money.cnn.com...]
| 181 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:54:21pm |
re: #174 studentpatriot
Doesn't George Bush have a geothermal powered house in Crawford? I wonder if anyone ever interviewed him about how well it works...?
In the USA "geothermal" is something exotic and somewhat misleading. Go to any major city in northern Europe and most of them are heated in the winter by "geothermal", but actually what it is is underground piping using ground heat in large heat-pump systems.
"Real" geothermal is areas that have uncommon volcanic based temperatures at shallow depth. EG Iceland.
| 182 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:56:39pm |
re: #181 Naso Tang
Go to any major city in northern Europe and most of them are heated in the winter by "geothermal", but actually what it is is underground piping using ground heat in large heat-pump systems.
Huh. I did not know that.
| 183 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:57:48pm |
re: #173 ryannon
And those little petroleum-secreting genetically modified algae?
..and of course they are kept happy with artificial light 24 hours per day, courtesy of solar panels 8 hours per day and their own output running the generators for 16 hours per day.
Sounds good though.
| 184 |
hokiepride Fri, Jan 15, 2010 4:58:16pm |
Cap and tax...oops I mean trade would kill whatever manufacturing is left in the US. The unemployment must first be brought down before anything like this is even considered. Frankly, I really am not a big fan of the leftist rolling stone. "Big Oil" is what keeps the Rolling Stone's editors vehicle and homes running.
| 185 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:00:44pm |
| 186 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:03:02pm |
re: #184 hokiepride
Cap and tax...oops I mean trade would kill whatever manufacturing is left in the US. The unemployment must first be brought down before anything like this is even considered. Frankly, I really am not a big fan of the leftist rolling stone. "Big Oil" is what keeps the Rolling Stone's editors vehicle and homes running.
don't be shy, come on down...
| 187 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:03:27pm |
re: #183 Naso Tang
..and of course they are kept happy with artificial light 24 hours per day, courtesy of solar panels 8 hours per day and their own output running the generators for 16 hours per day.
Sounds good though.
I always knew Bill Gates was a hopeless romantic and a total asshole. One hundred millions bucks down the crapper. Luckily, we've got engineers like you to set us straight.
| 188 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:03:37pm |
I was happy to see Buffet up there, front and center. Despite being a key adviser to Obama during the financial crisis, after the AIG/GS bailout it is easy to follow his advice in how to make money. Get someone else to pay for your losses.
As for his notion that the carbon tax is a ummm ..... what would you call it, a tax? I prefer to call it a disincentive or perhaps paying the full price, something he didn't do with AIG/GS.
For those of you scoring at home, Buffet owns AIG and was invited to by into Goldman Sachs at a discount. The government bailout gave AIG money which gave it to Goldman Sachs whose stock went up. Wow.
| 189 |
abolitionist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:04:34pm |
re: #175 Naso Tang
Where is your ambition? Actually, I think it is about 22,000 miles, but the size of the structures on the ground are quite manageable. The problem is in the present state of launch cost per kilo.
Yes, about 22,000 miles for a geosynchronous satellite. As for the power transfer, a major issue is sufficient directionality, altho there is some tradeoff. A space-based transmitter can be made smaller provided the ground-based receiver is made larger.
[search engine here] directional + antenna + side-lobes
Solar cells on roofs would be more practical, even at low efficiency.
| 190 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:04:42pm |
re: #182 Racer X
Huh. I did not know that.
Anyone can increase the efficiency of their own home heat pump, including AC, by installing in ground heat exchange piping. But every location is different and for the most part it will only make economic sense in areas with long winters.
Consider, for example, Stockholm Sweden is further north than Juneau Alaska.
| 191 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:05:41pm |
| 192 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:06:20pm |
re: #187 ryannon
I always knew Bill Gates was a hopeless romantic and a total asshole. One hundred millions bucks down the crapper. Luckily, we've got engineers like you to set us straight.
I was being somewhat sarcastic/cynical, in case you didn't notice. Algae is a great idea worth pursuing but, as Pat Robertson knows, the Devil is always in the details.
| 193 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:08:03pm |
re: #189 abolitionist
Yes, about 22,000 miles for a geosynchronous satellite. As for the power transfer, a major issue is sufficient directionality, altho there is some tradeoff. A space-based transmitter can be made smaller provided the ground-based receiver is made larger.
[search engine here] directional + antenna + side-lobesSolar cells on roofs would be more practical, even at low efficiency.
Efficiency aside, the ultimate power issue in space comes down to size. More is more. Period.
| 194 |
brookly red Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:09:34pm |
re: #184 hokiepride
Cap and tax...oops I mean trade would kill whatever manufacturing is left in the US. The unemployment must first be brought down before anything like this is even considered. Frankly, I really am not a big fan of the leftist rolling stone. "Big Oil" is what keeps the Rolling Stone's editors vehicle and homes running.
Awwww come on Basho, at least have a counter-point ...
| 195 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:19:09pm |
re: #169 ryannon
Given your posts the other day/evening, it's clear that you really know a lot about Voodoo.
And no, I'm not being confrontational.
Thank you. I have a strong personal connection with Haitians and interest in their religion and culture of over thirty years.
I recall the first time I was introduced to the grandmother of a close friend who spoke only creole. She said I was a 'Gro Neg.' Literally a big negro. To her that meant a Haitian man, whereas a foreigner would be called a 'blan' (white).
She gave me the status of one of her people which was quite touching and gave me insight into the perceptions of race and identity.
| 197 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:20:24pm |
one eyed one horned
flying Purple People Eater
life is good
| 198 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:23:06pm |
re: #190 Naso Tang
Anyone can increase the efficiency of their own home heat pump, including AC, by installing in ground heat exchange piping. But every location is different and for the most part it will only make economic sense in areas with long winters.
Consider, for example, Stockholm Sweden is further north than Juneau Alaska.
dayum....but can you see Russia from there?...actually my ex wife visits a friend in Sweden every year and this person just built a new house...small but very well insulated and efficient due to the codes
| 199 |
hokiepride Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:23:11pm |
Rolling stone also bashes big oil, big coal, electric utilities and warren buffett. Let's see how long they last without these eeevil industries. Maybe a winter without heating oil or coal fired power plants might help them see the light.
| 200 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:25:15pm |
re: #199 hokiepride
Ok, so are you denying that the people that RS pointed out as major players in the AGW-denial camp are indeed guilty as charged?
| 201 |
hokiepride Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:29:28pm |
re: #200 freetoken
Uhh no,
All I am saying is rolling stone conveniently covers only one side of the debate, while ignoring the other.
Look, AGW is real and the increasing CO2 in the atmosphere cannot be good for us. But to tax the utility companies and pushing gas and electricity prices through the roof is not the answer. Joe sixpack is already suffering wage stagnation, 401k losses and unemployment. To now hit him with a massive increase in oil and gas prices is not the answer.
Besides, if the green industry can lobby the gubmint what is wrong with big oil doing the same?
| 202 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:30:11pm |
re: #200 freetoken
Ok, so are you denying that the people that RS pointed out as major players in the AGW-denial camp are indeed guilty as charged?
I certainly would, just reading just the opening "charge" against Warren Buffett was absurd and slanderous. Typical warmist propaganda and character assassination.
| 203 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:30:30pm |
re: #196 Naso Tang
Incidentally, while on the subject:
Good article. Moral of the story: thank heaven for private capital.
| 204 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:31:19pm |
re: #197 albusteve
one eyed one horned
flying Purple People Eaterlife is good
I think you meant to post that on the previous thread.
| 205 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:33:34pm |
re: #202 Bagua
I certainly would, just reading just the opening "charge" against Warren Buffett was absurd and slanderous. Typical warmist propaganda and character assassination.
Well, it is Rolling Stone. You have to allow for left-wing exaggeration and attacks. Leftists like that attack as a matter of course.
| 206 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:33:46pm |
re: #204 Racer X
I think you meant to post that on the previous thread.
from thread to thread...they follow me everywhere
| 207 |
Racer X Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:35:50pm |
re: #206 albusteve
from thread to thread...they follow me everywhere
Yeah. I'm a chick magnet too. It's a burden.
| 208 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:37:46pm |
re: #207 Racer X
Yeah. I'm a chick magnet too. It's a burden.
only if they marry you...I've worn the ball and chain three times
| 209 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:41:32pm |
re: #203 ryannon
Good article. Moral of the story: thank heaven for private capital.
I suppose. But the other moral of the story is that societies do not do big things deliberately by hoping that WallMart will find it profitable, so to speak.
Anyway. Taking a break to watch Cops, or something less intellectually strenuous than LGF.
Cheers
| 210 |
Palmer_Eldritch Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:44:03pm |
I was surprised by Buffett being #1.....
| 211 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:46:20pm |
re: #201 hokiepride
Look, AGW is real and the increasing CO2 in the atmosphere cannot be good for us.
If you really believe that, then the next question is whether you believe it is worth expending any effort in stopping that which "cannot be good for us."
Then, if you believe we ought to be doing something, then the question is what the role of government would be.
Governments have a limited toolset by which to make behavior modifications on the society as a whole:
1) outlaw an action;
2) change the cost of performing some action.
In the latter category we have taxes and subsidies.
Over the years the US has subsidized fossil fuel use through a variety of means. Fossil fuels have also been taxed on different levels.
Non-governmental solutions tend to be overridden by government subsidies. Furthermore, individuals tend to not be biased in favor of the group, just their own clan, which makes societies impossible to run without governments, which look out for the society as a whole.
This brings us to the ultimate conclusion that if burning coal is indeed harmful to future generations' welfare (and it is), then the government has to use either taxes or subsidies to affect the burning of coal.
| 212 |
elizajane Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:50:01pm |
Has anybody pointed out that in the NYTimes article today about Tea Party grassroots organizing in Pennsylvania, one of the questions the organizers asked all the prospective candidates (after "would you ever, ever, ever raise any kind of tax for anything at all?") was "do you that human beings can contribute to climate change?"
You must answer NO or you are not a TRUE TEABAG.
And they call AGW a "religion"!
| 214 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:51:18pm |
re: #199 hokiepride
Rolling stone also bashes big oil, big coal, electric utilities and warren buffett. Let's see how long they last without these eeevil industries. Maybe a winter without heating oil or coal fired power plants might help them see the light.
Bravo, sir, for your pointless and illogical flailing. So let me get this right... nobody who uses oil (so nobody in any industrialized country on Earth) can talk about the politics of oil?
| 215 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 5:54:46pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
Bravo, sir, for your pointless and illogical flailing. So let me get this right... nobody who uses oil (so nobody in any industrialized country on Earth) can talk about the politics of oil?
did he say that?...you in your attack mode again?
| 216 |
Van Helsing Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:01:08pm |
A quick read of BN&SF RR site also shows they ship agricultural goods and ethanol. They move coal, too.
So what?
| 217 |
Van Helsing Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:02:38pm |
re: #208 albusteve
only if they marry you...I've worn the ball and chain three times
Slow learner or faulty memory?
/said lightly
| 218 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:03:30pm |
| 219 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:04:15pm |
re: #216 Van Helsing
A quick read of BN&SF RR site also shows they ship agricultural goods and ethanol. They move coal, too.
So what?
They also own the tracks of a Metra line I ride on sometimes.
| 220 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:05:36pm |
re: #205 Dark_Falcon
Well, it is Rolling Stone. You have to allow for left-wing exaggeration and attacks. Leftists like that attack as a matter of course.
Ha! I see I get a downding from the warmists instead of a refutation. That is their problem, they conflate science with propaganda and partisan politics and are not able to differentiate. This makes one sceptical indeed.
| 222 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:08:27pm |
re: #221 Olsonist
Really, you're not worth the effort.
I'm worthless am I, very funny. Typical leftist character assassination, apposite to my point, thank you.
No honest debate, just insults. Fuck you.
| 223 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:09:31pm |
| 224 |
Escaped Hillbilly Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:10:09pm |
re: #198 albusteve
While geothermal is promising, it does have real risks as well, strangely,
earthquakes.
Just a few years ago, a now-infamous geothermal project in Basel, Switzerland, which drilled three miles (4.8 kilometers) into Earth's crust, set off a magnitude 3.4 earthquake, rocking the town and shutting the operation down entirely, The New York Times recalled recently.
| 226 |
Van Helsing Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:13:43pm |
re: #224 Escaped Hillbilly
While geothermal is promising, it does have real risks as well, strangely,
earthquakes.
Geothermal has a number of unknowns associated with it.
Nuclear has some pretty thoroughly explored and mitigated negatives. If AGW was the immediate existential threat that is being portrayed as, more reactors would be under construction Right Now.
Yet they aren't.
| 227 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:14:12pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
Please define 'warmist'.
you should not post when you're drunk...makes you look even worse than usual
| 228 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:15:03pm |
| 230 |
Escaped Hillbilly Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:20:50pm |
re: #226 Van Helsing
Well that
If AGW was the immediate existential threat that is being portrayed as, more reactors would be under construction Right Now
doesn't necessarily follow (people don't always act in their own best interests) but, I just wanted to point out that all our current options have drawbacks. You have to match the need and the capabilities to the area where you need the power. I think more nuclear will be part of the answer, long term. But for now, a mixed bag approach seems prudent.
| 231 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:21:14pm |
re: #228 Bagua
Really, Bagua. You're using this term, 'warmist', that looks, on the face of it, like it means someone who believes AGW is real and a real problem. Can you tell me what it is you actually mean by it, since I assume that is not what you mean? I think it's a pretty unclear term to use, because it certainly seems like it just means someone who understands that AGW is real.
| 232 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:22:19pm |
re: #231 Obdicut
Are you asking sincerely or just to be argumentative?
| 233 |
Aye Pod Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:22:25pm |
The Hack Scientist
Fred Singer
Retired physicist, University of VirginiaA former mouthpiece for the tobacco industry, the 85-year-old Singer is the granddaddy of fake "science" designed to debunk global warming. The retired physicist — who also tried to downplay the danger of the hole in the ozone layer — is still wheeled out as an authority by big polluters determined to kill climate legislation. For years, Singer steadfastly denied that the world is heating up: Citing satellite data that has since been discredited, he even made the unhinged claim that "the climate has been cooling just slightly."
What a stellar track record this guy has of dispensing wise and scientifically sound judgements./
| 234 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:23:54pm |
re: #226 Van Helsing
Reactors are very expensive. The only reason the nuclear power industry exists at all through massive government subsidies. Of course, I could say the same thing about airports, but I digress.
As for whether people would do the right thing if confronted with a known threat, politicians and people in general aren't very smart. Generally they will do the same thing until forced to change. We'll call that conservatism.
| 235 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:24:21pm |
re: #232 Bagua
Are you asking sincerely or just to be argumentative?
I'm asking sincerely. I have no idea what you mean by 'warmist'. As I said, a 'warmist' would appear to be someone who understands that AGW-- the 'W' standing for 'warming'-- is real.
The only times I've seen this term being used previously was by climate deniers-- as here:
[Link: www.wordspy.com...]
| 236 |
Van Helsing Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:27:09pm |
re: #230 Escaped Hillbilly
Well that
doesn't necessarily follow (people don't always act in their own best interests) but, I just wanted to point out that all our current options have drawbacks. You have to match the need and the capabilities to the area where you need the power. I think more nuclear will be part of the answer, long term. But for now, a mixed bag approach seems prudent.
I am all for developing better solutions than nuclear. I think tidal power is being neglected and it's a source that is available all the time, unlike wind and solar that must have huge and effective storage systems for when the sun is obscured and the wind isn't blowing.
Tidal also would have the advantage of being close to major population centers to cut down on transmission line losses (about 47% of production is lost in the wires).
So again, if we have X months to do something (as some have stated *Charles, Prince of Wales*) then AGW folks should be pushing to get nukes built as if their lives depended on it.
| 237 |
Escaped Hillbilly Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:29:00pm |
re: #236 Van Helsing
Seems like we're in agreement so, heading over to the other thread. See ya later.
| 238 |
jmmejzz Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:30:09pm |
re: #74 freetoken
You really should mention the NCDC data analysis only goes back to 1880, in historical terms a blink of an eye. It also an historical fact that, for example from the year 1 CE, the planet has been hotter then present as well as colder then present... i.e. Greenland in the High Middle Ages was in fact green and not glacier encased, followed by the "Little Ice Age" (with several minamas of warming) lasting till the mid 19th century.
| 239 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:30:19pm |
re: #232 Bagua
Also see here:
[Link: 74.125.155.132...]
That's the good ol' American Stinker using the term.
Also here:
[Link: 74.125.155.132...]
At a website called 'climate change fraud'
Here:
[Link: 74.125.155.132...]
at a place who's headline banner reads:
GLOBAL WARMING: A WORN-OUT HOAX
here:
[Link: 74.125.155.132...]
On a website that is fond of Alex Jones and many other evil-ish people.
| 240 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:30:51pm |
re: #238 jmmejzz
Please search through LGFs for the many posts by Charles debunking what you just said.
| 241 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:30:56pm |
re: #234 Olsonist
Reactors are very expensive. The only reason the nuclear power industry exists at all through massive government subsidies. Of course, I could say the same thing about airports, but I digress.
As for whether people would do the right thing if confronted with a known threat, politicians and people in general aren't very smart. Generally they will do the same thing until forced to change. We'll call that conservatism.
And I'll downding you for the insult you just flung.
| 242 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:32:46pm |
re: #235 Obdicut
No problem, just in the past you have used questioning terms as a debating tactic, in my opinion, so I'm a bit wary.
My definition of 'warmist' would be someone whose belief in AGW goes beyond the actual state of the science and into the realm of a faith. The inability to separate the science from partisan exaggeration is an example of this. A warmist would also consider anyone who question his faith a 'denier', regardless of the possibility that the 'denier' understood the science better than he did.
And your links mean nothing, just guilt by association, I could link to any number of sites which used any word you used in an effort to similarity discredit you.
| 243 |
Van Helsing Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:33:34pm |
re: #234 Olsonist
Palo Verde cost about $6bn and produces 3GW of electricity. The UK is discussing spending 150 billion pounds (about $250bn) on wind generation that will produce about 60GW - when the wind blows.
I dunno. I don't have any great love for fission plants, but if I'm going to be buying something I'd rather it be something that works all the time.
| 244 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:34:53pm |
re: #241 Dark_Falcon
How would you describe conservatism but wanting things to stay as they are?
conservative %P%kənˈsərvətiv; -vəˌtiv%P%
adjective
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.
| 245 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:35:36pm |
re: #242 Bagua
My definition of 'warmist' would be someone whose belief in AGW goes beyond the actual state of the science and into the realm of a faith.
Can you name someone who fits this description, please? Charles, for example, is fine with calling people who question numerous things in the theory of AGW 'deniers'. Do you feel he is a 'warmist'?
And your links mean nothing, just guilt by association, I could link to any number of sites which used any word you used in an effort to similarity discredit you.
Really? So despite the fact that the term is used by global warming deniers as an obvious flailing attempt to fight back against the 'denier' label-- exclusively, you're fine with using it for your own private meaning?
Why risk miscommunicating like that?
| 246 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:38:14pm |
re: #244 Olsonist
How would you describe conservatism but wanting things to stay as they are?
conservative %P%kənˈsərvətiv; -vəˌtiv%P%
adjective
holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.
Traditionalism does not preclude adaptation. Both Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich showed that in order to be viable conservatism must be able to adapt to the challenges of the times. I think it still can. Whether it will is another question, one I am less optimistic about.
| 247 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:40:23pm |
re: #243 Van Helsing
I'm not strictly opposed to nuclear power. But nuclear is expensive and you don't build a nuclear power plant overnight.
| 248 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:40:33pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
The best postive description that I've heard of conservativism was:
"The understanding that many problems have been solved before, and the understanding that many problems may not have a solution, and that this, too, has been discovered before. Not to be trapped by the past, but to be guardians of the true wisdom of the past."
That would be my grandfather's take on it.
| 249 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:41:38pm |
re: #247 Olsonist
I'm not strictly opposed to nuclear power. But nuclear is expensive and you don't build a nuclear power plant overnight.
Then we'd better get cracking, hadn't we?
| 250 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:42:49pm |
re: #245 Obdicut
Yep, just as I suspected, you didn't want a definition or debate, you were preparing an attack.
You Obdicut are a warmist, we established that weeks ago when you acknowledged you knew little of the science and were just interested in countering deniers and that you had 'faith' in the 'scientists.' A classic warmist.
Warmist and denier are two sides of the same coin. You are on one, but I am not on the other.
And your sneaky attempt to make this about Charles is another dishonest attack you have tried before. Charles did not ding my post, you punk. Enjoy talking to yourself.
| 251 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:46:58pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
Traditionalism doesn't preclude adaptation but it sure doesn't welcome it. I think my dictionary definition of conservatism is a lot closer to the truth than your aspirational definition.
It certainly wasn't intended as a slur. I was always interested in conservatism as a counterbalance to liberalism. But modern conservatism has gotten hijacked by the wackos and sorry but I've got nothing for it.
| 252 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:51:01pm |
re: #250 Bagua
You Obdicut are a warmist, we established that weeks ago when you acknowledged you knew little of the science and were just interested in countering deniers and that you had 'faith' in the 'scientists.' A classic warmist.
That didn't happen. I've always noted that one doesn't have faith in scientists, one has trust in them-- you don't have to have faith in them, because science is a demonstrable body of knowledge with oversight, peers who are highly critical, etc. etc.
Warmist and denier are two sides of the same coin. You are on one, but I am not on the other.
No, Bagua, trusting scientists is not the same thing as mistrusting them. There is no reason to mistrust them, there is every reason to trust them. Science is the heart of Western civilization.
And your sneaky attempt to make this about Charles is another dishonest attack you have tried before. Charles did not ding my post, you punk. Enjoy talking to yourself.
It wasn't the least bit sneaky. I'm asking how Charles doesn't fit your description-- is it because you feel he understands the science, and I don't?
Oh, and, by the way:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 253 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 6:57:53pm |
re: #251 Olsonist
Traditionalism doesn't preclude adaptation but it sure doesn't welcome it. I think my dictionary definition of conservatism is a lot closer to the truth than your aspirational definition.
It certainly wasn't intended as a slur. I was always interested in conservatism as a counterbalance to liberalism. But modern conservatism has gotten hijacked by the wackos and sorry but I've got nothing for it.
I wish I could argue with that, but I can't.
| 254 |
Olsonist Fri, Jan 15, 2010 7:01:55pm |
re: #253 Dark_Falcon
So can I get you to remove the down ding?
| 255 |
Obdicut Fri, Jan 15, 2010 7:02:13pm |
re: #251 Olsonist
I think the perfect example of how conservatism would actually be, in a way, what is considered 'liberal' today is in regards to censorship.
When computer games first started being played seriously, there was a lot of concern that they might make kids violent-- and a lot of it was coming from the 'left', from the, I don't know what to call it, the victim-inspired left, the left who always needs to see any interaction in terms of potential danger. And I remember conservatives at the time-- not social conservatives, but those old, where-have-they-gone just "if it ain't broke don't fix it" conservatives, saying, "Hold on, we have violent books, violent movies, and most of all, violent parents, but now video games are going to make people violent? Let's be reasonable."
The kind of conservatives who made the point that every time a new medium was introduced everyone screamed about how oh the children will learn bad things and every time we got along fine-- they remembered a lesson from the past.
| 256 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Jan 15, 2010 7:24:30pm |
re: #254 Olsonist
So can I get you to remove the down ding?
Yes, you can. It's gone. Thank you for the clarification.
| 257 |
hokiepride Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:08:31pm |
re: #211 freetoken
Then, if you believe we ought to be doing something, then the question is what the role of government would be.
The role of the government must be to reduce the deficit, guard the borders and, regulate the finance industry. Energy policy is not the mainstay of the govt. till it tackles and solves these issues first
1) outlaw an action;
2) change the cost of performing some action.
3) Encourage realistic innovations like clean coal, nuke energy and CNG
4) Build energy efficient houses, like in Germany
Over the years the US has subsidized fossil fuel use through a variety of means. Fossil fuels have also been taxed on different levels.
And subsidizing green energy will help,how. You are simply substituting one evil with another
This brings us to the ultimate conclusion that if burning coal is indeed harmful to future generations' welfare (and it is), then the government has to use either taxes or subsidies to affect the burning of coal.
It is harmful,yes but until an equivalent less harmful way can be found, we can mitigate its effects (using low sulfur coal for example) and encourage the companies to reduce transmission losses
| 258 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:15:34pm |
| 259 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:20:23pm |
re: #76 Beany
Seriously, I go to Rolling Stone for good, solid, impartial science every time!
Conditional ding because I'm hoping you were being sarcastic.
| 260 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:28:34pm |
re: #224 Escaped Hillbilly
While geothermal is promising, it does have real risks as well, strangely,
earthquakes.
As a geologist, but not in CA, I can't call BS. But, you have to keep in mind the principle of unintended consequences. Everyone (or most people) want something for nothing.
| 261 |
Bagua Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:38:12pm |
re: #252 Obdicut
Punk is not a vulgar name and you are not qualified to lecture me on the subject of science. Your position is trust/faith in authority, my position is knowledge and examination.
And yes, it is being sneaky to insinuate that I am criticising Charles. "Look, he said something about teacher!" That is the behaviour of a punk.
| 262 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:39:14pm |
| 263 |
Unakite Fri, Jan 15, 2010 8:49:37pm |
re: #247 Olsonist
I'm not strictly opposed to nuclear power. But nuclear is expensive and you don't build a nuclear power plant overnight.
You don't build fucking anything overnight!!! The technology has been there for decades. The environmental lawsuites that effectively stopped the construction of nuclear reactors have been around for decades too!! Welcome to the fallout.
//pun intended.
| 264 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:07:48pm |
re: #45 robdouth
Yeah I say plutonium everywhere. Plants aren't made like Chernobyl and TMI anymore. There are many better designs. Let's make a giant international agreement which can jump start the economy. Train for the new green jobs (nuclear could provide a number of them) and then continue to invest in the other technologies that may not be ready right this second. The funny thing is that if Obama actually put a plan like that out there, the right would bitch because it's Obama, and the left would bitch because some of the hard left environmentalists won't change their mind on Nuclear.
I wasn't thinking about accidents. I was thinking about the probability that the South Yemen Insurgency would be able to raid the Yemen power plant and then dirty bomb anywhere they could reach in a light plane.
Plutonium is more radioactive than uranium, and as a chemical element, it's nasty. Poisonous and highly reactive.
| 265 |
freetoken Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:54:26pm |
re: #238 jmmejzz
It also an historical fact that, for example from the year 1 CE, the planet has been hotter then present as well as colder then present... i.e. Greenland in the High Middle Ages was in fact green and not glacier encased, ...
Your "facts" are not.
Rather, they are programmed talking points that run around the denial-o-sphere, that are intended to fool the less educated.
| 266 |
Basho Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:09:20pm |
I am a warming skeptic who is slowly coming around. I just think that if AGW is as serious as everyone claims, then we shouldn't reduce greenhouse gases or do anything at all.
| 268 |
karmasherabwangchuk Fri, Jan 15, 2010 11:41:48pm |
re: #5 ralphieboyTampa,
be careful with your terminology "lowest price" mighe be right but "cheapest cost" is something that is not reflected in the market price, which is a big problem I have with nuclear energy: the costs are hidden and some of them are buried underground to bother future generations.
I could even see using nuclear energy if it were part of a transitional program to get us to reduce carbon, but I somehow don't see that as a major incentive for those who support maintaining or even expanding it.
Transition to what exactly? Wind, Solar etc will not be powering a first world economy any time soon. and besides they require a fossil fuel infrastucture to be produced, deployed and maintained. also breeder reactors don't create near as much waste as th older style reactors and what waste there is breaks down much faster. 100's versus 1000's of years.
| 269 |
Obdicut Sat, Jan 16, 2010 6:04:18am |
re: #261 Bagua
Your position is trust/faith in authority, my position is knowledge and examination.
Man, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. It's great that you think you're so awesome, but what's unclear is why on earth you feel that I don't understand the science, and why you feel that trusting Western science is just the other side of the coin of mistrusting Western science.
And yes, it is being sneaky to insinuate that I am criticising Charles. "Look, he said something about teacher!" That is the behaviour of a punk.
I'm asking you straightforwardly why you call me a 'warmist' and don't call Charles one. You seem to be basing the difference on your own analysis on whether or not I understand the science of AGW, and for some reason you've decided that I don't understand it-- and that you do. I'm not sure you realize the irony of that position.
Punk is not a vulgar name and you are not qualified to lecture me on the subject of science.
But you're qualified to lecture me. Can you explain why?
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