And Now, the Blame Game

Politics • Views: 2,613

Chris Cillizza has a piece on the Democratic blame game in full force in Massachusetts.

Less than 24 hours removed from state Attorney General Martha Coakley’s (D) stunning loss in the Massachusetts Senate race, Democrats were at daggers-drawn over whose fault it was. Two rival camps quickly emerged: Coakley’s campaign (and consultant — in particular pollster Celinda Lake) versus national Democrats. From a Coakley campaign adviser came a strongly worded memo, arguing that she had consistently raised concern about voter apathy in advance of the special election and asked for fundraising help that she never received from national Democrats. One senior party official dismissed the memo as a “pack of lies” and — in a memo rebutting the Coakley memo — made several points including: 1) National Democrats had contacted the campaign on Jan. 2 asking what could be done to help and didn’t hear back for four days. 2) The money problems were Coakley’s and hers alone; “If the Coakley campaign did have money troubles perhaps it was because the candidate and campaign went on hiatus/vacation for the last 10 days of December,” read the memo. 3) “Remember — the most notable events of the last week had nothing to do with the national Democratic Party — it was: Schilling is a Yankee, telling voters she didn’t need to shake their hands, a Disastrous trip to Washington DC and a terrible debate performance,” read the memo. The simple fact — as we noted last night — is that everyone from the White House to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee to the Coakley campaign deserves their share of blame.

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774 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:05:56am

She was a terrible candidate.

However, I think she would have won if Bush were still President.

2 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:07:44am

besides Choakly herself, I think tis speaks volumes for BOs too far left of center agenda....no question this is about policy more than personality

3 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:08:25am

PICK ME!! I KNOW THIS!! It's Bush's fault. Right?

4 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:08:37am

Republicans never win.

Democrats lose.

5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:09:45am
3) “Remember — the most notable events of the last week had nothing to do with the national Democratic Party — it was: Schilling is a Yankee, telling voters she didn’t need to shake their hands, a Disastrous trip to Washington DC and a terrible debate performance,” read the memo. The simple fact — as we noted last night — is that everyone from the White House to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee to the Coakley campaign deserves their share of blame.

Captain Obvious saves the day!

6 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:09:49am

Andy attempts to self-comfort...but he can't manage more than a paragraph or two before he must distract himself with some good old fashioned Bush bashing. You have to scroll to the second entry for his take on the Mass kicking...
[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

7 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:10:31am

re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is that you, MoDo?//

8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:11:21am

re: #7 tradewind

Hu dat?

9 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:12:09am

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maureen Dowd's nickname for Obama in a recent screed.

10 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:12:12am

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hu dat?

Maureen Dowd, NYT. Bitter hag.

11 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:12:16am

re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Captain Obvious saves the day!

You rang?

12 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:12:28am
3) “Remember — the most notable events of the last week had nothing to do with the national Democratic Party — it was: Schilling is a Yankee, telling voters she didn’t need to shake their hands, a Disastrous trip to Washington DC and a terrible debate performance,” read the memo. The simple fact — as we noted last night — is that everyone from the White House to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee to the Coakley campaign deserves their share of blame.


Translation: We're pathetic, now let's see if we can save the President and the Party from being implicated in this unmitigated disaster.

13 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:12:45am

re: #3 Cannadian Club Akbar

PICK ME!! I KNOW THIS!! It's Bush's fault. Right?

Bush and the Jooooooos!

////////

14 Lidane  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:13:56am

She lost because she was a terrible candidate. Period.

15 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:14:03am

If I cared anymore I would say most of the fault lies with Coakley for just being a bad campaigner who thought this would be a cake walk and was caught on vacation, but you can also look to Tim Kaine and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee for not paying attention till it was too late.
Plus she did not have a sweet ride like Scott Brown....

(this is what happens when you are feeling like something will be easy...it makes me fear for the Kentucky Wildcats. Those guys really need to lose a game or two before the tournament.)

16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:16:10am

Holy Crap! CNN just aired "Rep. Anthony Weiner (D)".

He nails it.

17 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:16:30am

On the one hand, Coaklyes people should NOT have come out with this. Staffers are just trying to deflect their own terrible job so in the future they can be considered to run other campaigns. It makes it easier for them if they can blame the loss on someone else
On the other hand, the national Dems need to run as far away from Coakley as fast as they possibly can. But doing it this way instead of just ignoring what Coakleys people put out looks schoolyardish

18 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:16:35am
The simple fact — as we noted last night — is that everyone from the White House to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee to the Coakley campaign deserves their share of blame.


Yup.

Posted in spinoffs last night, but still-- enjoy!

Democratic Party responds to Coakley memo: 'Political malpractice'


A senior Democratic Party official responded furiously today to a memo from a Coakley adviser arguing that the national party bears a large share of blame for failing to support her financially and sticking her with unpopular policies on health care and Afghanistan.

The official writes:

This memo is a pack full of lies and fantasies — The DNC and the DSCC did everything they were asked and have been involved in the race for several weeks, not just the last one.

The campaign failed to recognize this threat, failed to keep Coakley on the campaign trail, failed to create a negative narrative about Brown, failed to stay on the air in December while he was running a brilliant campaign. It's wishful thinking from a pollster, candidate and campaign team that were caught napping and are going to allow one of the worst debacles in American political history to happen on their watch that they are at the 11th hour are going to blame others.

Before the DNC and DSCC got involved there was barely a single piece of paper on what the narrative is on Brown. The candidate in this race and the campaign have been involved in the worst case of political malpractice in memory and they aren't going to be able to spin themselves out of this with a memo full of lies.

Coakley sucked, no doubt about it. So did her campaign. The circular firing squad is convened.

19 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:16:47am

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

Maureen Dowd, NYT. Bitter hag.

Did you see her column last week were she was all besides herself because the President was not enough of a father figure and that she was afraid and....
Ugh, daddy issues Mo?

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:17:48am

re: #19 webevintage

Did you see her column last week were she was all besides herself because the President was not enough of a father figure and that she was afraid and...
Ugh, daddy issues Mo?

GAK! NO!

21 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:18:18am

“In many ways the campaign in Massachusetts became a referendum not only on health care reform but also on the openness and integrity of our government process. It is vital that we restore the respect of the American people in our system of government and in our leaders. To that end, I believe it would only be fair and prudent that we suspend further votes on health care legislation until Senator-elect Brown is seated.”

~Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA)

22 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:19:24am

Hold on, let me make some popcorn...

23 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:08am

It might have helped if she'd actually went out on the Campaign Trail, Being out-campaigned 3:1 by Scott Brown hurt. Saying one incredibly stupid thing after another hurt.

Having the National Republicans quietly shift $500,000 into the race without anyone noticing until the day of the election was brilliantly done. Scott Brown also managed to keep any other issues from reaching the table, and that kept any questions about his views on Abortion/Creationism and other potential landmines out of the picture.

However I think there's a danger in viewing this race as a national referendum. We're talking about state that already has universal health care, which ironically enough, may have played a role in undermining support for Health care reform as an election issue.

Interesting note: according to pollster.com, Scott Brown received the same number of votes as McCain in MA. The candidate that underperformed was Coakley.

You could have run a Dead Cat (D) and won against Scott Brown. because the dead cat wouldn't have said so many incredibly breathtakingly stupid things. Nor had the same baggage as Coakley.

Sure the Democrats could have done more on a national level, but they shouldn't have had to, and by the time they realized what an incredibly horrible candidate Coakley was, the damage was too much.

24 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:09am

That is all true, BUT, had she had a billion dollars, had she campaigned 24/7, she would have lost. She is a bought and paid for partisan hack. Always has been.
She kept innocent people in prison. She refused to prosecute a heinous crime because of union concerns. She failed to declare over $200,000 in personal assets. She asked, nastily, if she should be expected to "Stand out in the cold and shake hands?"
I will not bring up the sports gaffes, as I think those should have nothing to do with it. Who cares.
This was a vote by the fed up people of Massachusetts who have elected democrats reliably for decades, and immediately been discounted by those same elected officials as having opinions that matter.
We have voted for tax cuts, and had those votes ignored. The democrats we have elected were so sure of their job security, they are openly corrupt. This mornings op-ed in the Boston Herald contains an e-mail to the editor with a TINY portion of the problems we have had here. Obama, Pelosi and Reid, pushing ahead at a national level proposals that are so odious to most Americans, and the mindbogglingly way they have done it, with complete disregard for the people who put them there, pushed us over the edge. Obama, Pelosi and Reid forgot what the definition of representative is, and said plainly that they won, and would do as they pleased. They appointed themselves our keepers. They got our answer to that yesterday, from the bluest state in the nation. Don't look for this state to turn back to that anytime soon. This feels great. This is power.

25 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:16am

re: #14 Lidane

She lost because she was a terrible candidate. Period.

policy had nothing to do with it?...okak

26 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:18am

There are 2.4 trillion reasons why Coakley lost the Massachusetts special election.

27 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:23am

re: #14 Lidane

She lost because she was a terrible candidate. Period.

Before the 'period", you have to add "and wrong on the issues that concerned the people there"

28 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:24am

DCCC Chairman Chris Van Hollen, in a prepared statement released moments after Martha Coakley's abrupt concession, works to do what she couldn't: shift the blame back to Bush.

29 Ericus58  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:33am

re: #21 NJDhockeyfan

I may not agree with some of Webb's political viewpoints, but I've always thought well of him. Well done.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:20:46am

re: #21 NJDhockeyfan

I hate to say it, but, he's my guy!

Didn't like the disrespect he paid to Bush.

But, I wonder if Democratic spouses got any sleep last night. There were lights going on over their heads all night, I'll bet.

31 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:21:43am

re: #24 CapeCoddah

A real Kennedy would have lost this race.

32 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:21:47am

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

GAK! NO!

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Upset that he's not emotional enough for her.
" He’s so sure of himself and his actions that he fails to see that he misses the moment to be president — to be the strong father who protects the home from invaders, who reassures and instructs the public at traumatic moments. "

Thanks Mo, but I'm not afraid and I really don't need my President to be a "father" fugure.

33 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:22:55am

re: #21 NJDhockeyfan

“In many ways the campaign in Massachusetts became a referendum not only on health care reform but also on the openness and integrity of our government process. It is vital that we restore the respect of the American people in our system of government and in our leaders. To that end, I believe it would only be fair and prudent that we suspend further votes on health care legislation until Senator-elect Brown is seated.”

~Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA)

That was sporting of him.

34 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:23:56am

re: #25 albusteve

policy had nothing to do with it?...okak

re: #27 sattv4u2

Before the 'period", you have to add "and wrong on the issues that concerned the people there"

Heh.

35 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:24:16am

re: #33 The Sanity Inspector

That was sporting of him.

yes..."we should do the right thing" is always a surprise from the dems

36 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:24:56am

re: #24 CapeCoddah

Obama, Pelosi and Reid, pushing ahead at a national level proposals that are so odious to most Americans, and the mindbogglingly way they have done it, with complete disregard for the people who put them there, pushed us over the edge.

What?
Just tell me what is so odious?
Is it health care reform that the people of MA already have, but seem to not think the rest of the country should have?

37 ILoveIsrael  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:25:40am

Blame game?! Just tell me who to thank! Both parties suck equally, but at least now neither one has a filibuster-proof majority.

38 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:25:57am

Such a bad candidate that she was up by 15-20 points.

39 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:26:09am

I wonder if Keith Oberdouche called in sick today.

40 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:26:10am

re: #36 webevintage

What?
Just tell me what is so odious?
Is it health care reform that the people of MA already have, but seem to not think the rest of the country should have?

Ben Nelson
etc

41 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:26:29am

re: #36 webevintage

What?
Just tell me what is so odious?
Is it health care reform that the people of MA already have, but seem to not think the rest of the country should have be saddled with?

ftfy,,, ! the devil you know, and all!

42 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:26:43am

re: #23 bloodstar

I've been following, and may have missed it, but did Brown ever state his position on global warming, not just being against cap & trade, but global warming as a whole?

43 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:27:00am

re: #38 Ben Hur

Such a bad candidate that she was up by 15-20 30 points.

early on

44 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:27:33am

re: #19 webevintage

Did you see her column last week were she was all besides herself because the President was not enough of a father figure and that she was afraid and...
Ugh, daddy issues Mo?

Sure did. MoDo has expressed those sorts of sentiments for at least 15 years though, no matter who was in office.
Yeah, I have the links.

45 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:27:49am

Never mind the boos and jeers that O got when he was trying to campaign for her...
Heard interview w/ Mike Barnicle(?) on local radio last night who was predicting a Brown win. He was totally of the opinion that Coackly had run an utterly arrogant, stand-offish campaign that irritated everyone, even people who were still supportive of the major Democrat Agenda. "Better Brown for 2 years than Coakly for life" was a common expression.

THAT having been said, I *do* personally think there was a deal of backlash against Health care, O, Pelosi, etc as well.

Whatever the reason, I'm damned glad Brown won.

46 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:28:33am

This is the circular firing squad in effect; Coakley ran about as bad a campaign as possible (perhaps on par with Rudy's abortive 2008 presidential bid), and the GOP candidate ran as good a campaign as could be imagined to overcome built in advantages that Democrats have in Mass.

But the blame game started even before the first vote was cast. That's how I knew that the Democrats' chances to hold the seat were slipping away. You don't go casting blame for failure even before the votes are cast - that only adds to the problem you're trying to avoid.

The spin was already being developed from the White House on down - Axelrod was saying the Brown campaign ran a great race, and Coakley's people were wondering why the WH didn't do more to campaign on her behalf.

The WH is probably wondering why Coakley could make so many unforced errors, and why she needed so much help when there were all those advantages built in (which she squandered).

The spin is what it is - each side has to spin things to get what they need out of this mess; the WH needs to distance itself from the mess, while Mass. Democrats need to blame the WH for not doing enough since it would otherwise fall on them for running out a candidate who couldn't get the job done.

For the GOP, they have to follow the immortal words of Han Solo - "Don't get cocky, kid!" Run out good candidates who run good campaigns on issues that matter to the wide spectrum of voters, and you can win elections. Cater to a narrow demographic, and you're not going to win. It's all about getting the most votes, and Brown hit on a recipe to win in Mass, just as Christie did in NJ - the economy matters, taxes matter, and controlling government spending matters.

47 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:28:47am

re: #39 Cannadian Club Akbar

I wonder if Keith Oberdouche called in sick today.

Heh. He called a few Kossacks trolls when they criticized him last night. I'm sure he's feeling ill this morning.

48 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:28:53am

re: #18 iceweasel

Coakley sucked, no doubt about it. So did her campaign. The circular firing squad is convened.

Indeed.

Dem Circular Firing Squad Over Mass Senate Defeat

The Associated Press just called the Massachusetts senate race for Republican Scott Brown. Even before the polls closed today in the Bay State on a raw snowy January day, the national Democrats and Martha Coakley’s campaign started pointing fingers, engaging in a vicious blame game. The circular firing squad within the Democratic Party is about to get ugly.

David Axelrod told reporters today: “I think the White House did everything we were asked to do. Had we been asked earlier, we would have responded earlier.” Ouch! Why didn’t you ask for help earlier Martha?

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters today that President Obama was “surprised and frustrated.” He is “Not pleased,” added Gibbs.

Coakley’s campaign swiftly responded to the criticisms pointing the finger at the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and the Democratic National Committee. “DNC and other Dem organizations did not engage until the week before the election, much too late to aid Coakley campaign,” read one memo from the campaign.

A senior national party official quoted by the Huffington Post shot an immediate volley back towards the Coakley campaign, saying Coakley’s charges are “A pack full of lies and fantasies.”

“The candidate in this race and the campaign have been involved in the worst case of political malpractice in memory and they aren’t going to be able to spin themselves out of this with a memo full of lies,” said the official.

This is going to get ugly, very ugly.

49 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:31:19am

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

50 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:32:30am

re: #42 Stanley Sea

I've been following, and may have missed it, but did Brown ever state his position on global warming, not just being against cap & trade, but global warming as a whole?

Not sure, he supported cap and trade at one point, and now opposes it on his website and is now on record as saying that AGW is open for debate:

Just last week, Brown visited the home of a voter in Harvard, Jack Farren, who asked him, “Do you think that whole global warming thing is a big fraud?’’

Brown’s answer was illustrative, in that he did not reject the fraud theory.

“It’s interesting. I think the globe is always heating and cooling,’’ he said. “It’s a natural way of ebb and flow. The thing that concerns me lately is some of the information I’ve heard about potential tampering with some of the information.’’

Brown continued, saying: “I just want to make sure if in fact . . . the earth is heating up, that we have accurate information, and it’s unbiased by scientists with no agenda. Once that’s done, then I think we can really move forward with a good plan.’’

51 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:32:36am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

maybe even president

52 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:32:51am

It was Obamacare, not Marcia 'Buckner' Choakley.

53 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:33:48am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

Actually, he doesn't even need to be a driver to "qualify" to be a senator.

But nice try!

54 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:33:51am

re: #39 Cannadian Club Akbar

Last night he and the MSNBC crew were hilarious to watch. Mathews was sick looking. That chick, so lame, "this is good news for the democrates, now we can get a health care bill that we really want with out needing the 60 vote super majority." After I stopped laughing I scratched my head.

55 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:34:27am

BBL ,, works beckons

56 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:34:41am

re: #35 albusteve

yes..."we should do the right thing" is always a surprise from the dems

And what a pathetic effing shame that is.
Not that the R's are all THAT much better...

57 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:34:53am

re: #39 Cannadian Club Akbar

I wonder if Keith Oberdouche called in sick today.

Why would he?
It'd be like Rush calling in sick on any given day.

Olbermann has a schtick and he works it for all it's worth. He's raring to go today, I'm sure.

58 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:35:01am

re: #50 bloodstar

Oh geez.

59 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:35:40am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

and a "regular guy"....Peggy Noonan said he looked like a "real American".

60 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:35:44am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

Obama won the presidency with pretty much no resume. So qualifications clearly are not an issue these days.

61 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:36:07am

re: #42 Stanley Sea

I found my answer, I guess. From the Boston Globe:

Brown on Climate change

The issue is clearly on the mind of some voters. Just last week, Brown visited the home of a voter in Harvard, Jack Farren, who asked him, “Do you think that whole global warming thing is a big fraud?’’

Brown’s answer was illustrative, in that he did not reject the fraud theory.

“It’s interesting. I think the globe is always heating and cooling,’’ he said. “It’s a natural way of ebb and flow. The thing that concerns me lately is some of the information I’ve heard about potential tampering with some of the information.’’

Brown continued, saying: “I just want to make sure if in fact . . . the earth is heating up, that we have accurate information, and it’s unbiased by scientists with no agenda. Once that’s done, then I think we can really move forward with a good plan.’’

Was this discussed much here on LGF?

62 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:36:33am

re: #26 cliffster

There are 2.4 trillion reasons why Coakley democrats lost the Massachusetts special election.

Fixed that for ya.re: #36 webevintage

Yes, and it is bankrupting the state. We have seen our health care premiums skyrocket, and hospitals not being paid enough to keep them running properly. WE KNOW IT DOES NOT WORK. We don't want it either, and maybe you should listen more closely to the folks who have had this forced upon them. We are the only ones with experience with it. Nice try. You sound bitter, but trust me, you would be a HELL of a lot more bitter had this NOT happened, in the long run. We just saved you and the rest of the country from yourselves.

63 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:36:55am

re: #50 bloodstar

Thanks speedy!

64 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:37:30am

re: #24 CapeCoddah

Word! Upding for you. We elect terrible Democratic candidates all the time, c.f. Kerry and Patrick. That wasn't the only problem here.

BTW, the Cape went heavily for Brown (except P-Town of course). Wow!

65 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:38:44am

re: #46 lawhawk

For the GOP, they have to follow the immortal words of Han Solo - "Don't get cocky, kid!" Run out good candidates who run good campaigns on issues that matter to the wide spectrum of voters, and you can win elections. Cater to a narrow demographic, and you're not going to win. It's all about getting the most votes, and Brown hit on a recipe to win in Mass, just as Christie did in NJ - the economy matters, taxes matter, and controlling government spending matters.


I also have to wonder if the Glenn Beck/Fox freakshow helped. They have a pretty big megaphone.

66 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:39:32am

O political morons!

In this case Democrats!

Indulging in blaming, because of desire for power now slightly diminished.

O morons !

Why not try to think what cooperating for the common good would mean !

67 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:39:58am

re: #64 harrylook

Word! Upding for you. We elect terrible Democratic candidates all the time, c.f. Kerry and Patrick. That wasn't the only problem here.

BTW, the Cape went heavily for Brown (except P-Town of course). Wow!

I read this morning that Hyannis Port was flooded with Brown signs...heh...gotta love it...I'm not much of a Kennedy fan

68 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:40:31am

re: #61 Stanley Sea

Was this discussed much here on LGF?


Not sure but it doesn't surprise me to learn he doesn't believe in global warming. It's pretty much a requirement.

69 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:00am

re: #57 iceweasel

Why would he?
It'd be like Rush calling in sick on any given day.

Olbermann has a schtick and he works it for all it's worth. He's raring to go today, I'm sure.

Don't forget what happened last November. He cut short his coverage of the Republican victories on election night then disappeared for 3 days.

70 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:04am

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I also have to wonder if the Glenn Beck/Fox freakshow helped. They have a pretty big megaphone.

in this case, let's hope so...clearly this is good for Mass and the country in general

71 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:06am

re: #62 CapeCoddah

We just saved you and the rest of the country from yourselves.

And a VERY sincere "Thank You" and "Praise (insert favorite deity here)"

72 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:11am

re: #66 Ojoe

Isn't that just slightly ironic, given that this election means a breaking of the Democratic supermajority, which is only an issue given that the GOP is filibustering at an unprecedented rate?

73 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:20am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Brown won because he drives a truck. And that qualifies him to be a Senator.

He is an active LT. COL. in the National Guard, and is a three term state senator. He is eminently qualified to be US Senator Brown.
He is not, btw, looking for a house in Georgetown, but a military officers billet for 20/30 bucks a day.
He is the right person for the state of Massachusetts and the rest of the country.

74 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:41:54am

re: #60 cliffster

has brown done any community organizing... i hear that is great prep for being president...

75 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:42:37am

re: #73 CapeCoddah

He is an active LT. COL. in the National Guard, and is a three term state senator. He is eminently qualified to be US Senator Brown.
He is not, btw, looking for a house in Georgetown, but a military officers billet for 20/30 bucks a day.
He is the right person for the state of Massachusetts and the rest of the country.

I was joking, sorry. Reference Obama's statement yesterday. "Anyone can drive a truck"

76 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:43:42am

re: #73 CapeCoddah
Oh, and one other thing, thank you.

77 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:43:47am

Another Republican victory....
Erroll Southers Withdraws: TSA Nominee Drops Out Amid 'Political Agenda'

Erroll Southers said he was pulling out because his nomination had become a lightning rod for those with a political agenda. Obama had tapped Southers, a former FBI agent, to lead the TSA in September but his confirmation has been blocked by Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, who says he was worried that Southers would allow TSA employees to have collective bargaining rights.

In an e-mail to friends and colleagues, Southers said, "It is unfortunate that we are residing in such contentious political times, that exceptional, 'apolitical' candidates have to seriously consider their willingness to participate in public service."

79 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:02am

re: #72 Obdicut

There's not much hope, IMHO, of much cooperation for the common good coming from this "stunning" election; it probably will adjust the current battles and that is all.

Really it is the electorate who are morons.

80 idioma  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:11am

I blame Brown's truck.

I'm Scott Brown and I approve of this tune up, tire rotation, and oil change.
////

81 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:12am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Yay for obstructionism.

82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:29am

re: #39 Cannadian Club Akbar

"He's taking a bath."
-John Gibson

83 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:34am

re: #78 NJDhockeyfan

Speaking of KO...

Olbermann Blasts “Homophobic, Racist” Scott Brown; Scarborough Fires Back

I was looking for that. Thanks.

84 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:40am

Natter away folks, nothing has changed.

Health care looks to still be in a Scylla and Charybdis situation stuck between an currently system with heavily escalating costs and a reform bill that as it currently stands will potentially simply make things worse.

The two party dog-and-pony show continues. A candidate from one party replaces one from the other, and both parties continue to suck at the special interest trough. Their interests are for their party, and for their personal re-election, the country and common man appear to remain their third priority at best.

The media continues their pursuit of ratings, and with it the almighty dollar that has already bought the politicians. Journalism has been forgotten, since access is easier, cheaper, and delivers such yummy sound bites. The pundits love the same game since it supplies them the material to keep their audience glued to the set as they spout the outrage that their listeners want to hear.

Much of our environment seems to be completely geared to the superficial and keeping the masses pleased with their white bread and circuses. We muddle along concentrating on the short term (at best).

However, as recent events have shown, we have the luxury of wallowing in this while other people in other countries have more immediate concerns regarding food, shelter, basic medical care and basic security.

85 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:45:40am

re: #78 NJDhockeyfan

Speaking of KO...

Olbermann Blasts “Homophobic, Racist” Scott Brown; Scarborough Fires Back

worse than Rush !?

86 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:46:11am

re: #78 NJDhockeyfan

Speaking of KO...

Olbermann Blasts “Homophobic, Racist” Scott Brown; Scarborough Fires Back

i might have to start watching countdown to no ratings just for the comedy factor...

87 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:46:11am

re: #72 Obdicut

Isn't that just slightly ironic, given that this election means a breaking of the Democratic supermajority, which is only an issue given that the GOP is filibustering at an unprecedented rate?

Like the democrats did in the minority?

88 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:46:11am

re: #69 NJDhockeyfan

Don't forget what happened last November. He cut short his coverage of the Republican victories on election night then disappeared for 3 days.

Now, why would Olbermann (!!) cut short his coverage on election night? The night when Obama (yes, really) won a landslide victory?

I'm not especially a fan of Olbermann, btw. But I really doubt that he took to his bed in despair at 'Republican victories' last November.

I think he found a schtick and works it. Basically what I think about a few people-- Coulter and Rush, for example.

89 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:46:41am

re: #81 Obdicut

Yay for obstructionism.

he got Borked...oh well

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:47:13am

re: #49 filetandrelease

Lamar Alexander wore a flannel shirt. Paul Simon wore a bow tie. Al Franken is a huge tool.

Everybody's got their thing...

91 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:47:28am

re: #79 Ojoe

There's not much hope, IMHO, of much cooperation for the common good coming from this "stunning" election; it probably will adjust the current battles and that is all.

Really it is the electorate who are morons.

Not anymore.

92 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:47:43am

re: #75 filetandrelease

I was joking, sorry. Reference Obama's statement yesterday. "Anyone can drive a truck"

Oops. I fixed that downding, sorry.

93 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:48:26am

re: #79 Ojoe

Well, something's messed up. I've heard a lot about this election over the past few days. None of it was actually about anything that Brown would do, or that Coakely would do, outside the health care bill-- and even then, it's purely speculative. I've heard plenty about Coakely being an overaggressive prosecutor, and plenty about Brown being an opportunist.

I haven't heard anything actually about either of their positions that might make me favor one over the other. That says something about the state politics are in right now.

I've always liked that promise-meter for Obama. I feel it's a great way to hold politicians to their words.

94 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:48:31am

re: #91 filetandrelease

Well I hope so.

Need new crop of "R"s for that.

95 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:48:40am

Much needed nap time. BBL.

96 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:48:55am

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Lamar Alexander wore a flannel shirt. Paul Simon wore a bow tie. Al Franken is a huge tool.

Everybody's got their thing...


It was a joke.

97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:49:15am

Heh. I said to Mrs. FBV a second ago, "They're talking about running this guy for President already." She replied, "Jim Brown? Jim Scott? Scott Brown?"

He's got a little work to do.

98 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:49:33am

re: #87 CapeCoddah

No, actually. That's what the word 'unprecedented' means-- that the Democrats did not do it at this high a rate.

99 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:49:42am

re: #79 Ojoe

There's not much hope, IMHO, of much cooperation for the common good coming from this "stunning" election; it probably will adjust the current battles and that is all.

Really it is the electorate who are morons.

Tough to argue that - My rep, John Conyors, has been in office my entire life - WTF!!! Need some fresh blood.

As far as 'cooperation' goes - why compromise w/ evil? How much sewage DO you want in your wine? O's socialist policies, from "Health Care" to "Sharing the Wealth" to "Cap / Tax" are designed to destroy the greatness of the individual, and this country that is based on personal rights.
Why help them at ALL??

100 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:50:12am

Some interesting polling.....
Obama Backers More Committed To Reform Than To Party: MA Poll


Commissioned for three progressive organizations -- the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, Democracy for America and MoveOn.org -- the firm discovered that 18 percent of Obama backers who voted in the Senate race ended up casting ballots for Brown. Of that group:

* 82 percent said they favored a public option for insurance coverage, with 14 percent opposed to the public option
* 32 percent said they favored the Senate's health care bill, with 48 percent opposed to it.
* And of those who opposed the Senate's bill, 36 percent said it did not go far enough, and 23 percent said it went too far.

101 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:50:34am

re: #99 Pete(Detroit)

Want me to post the Modern Whig party link?

102 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:50:36am

re: #97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh. I said to Mrs. FBV a second ago, "They're talking about running this guy for President already." She replied, "Jim Brown? Jim Scott? Scott Brown?"

He's got a little work to do.

I liked his response to that. This guy is pretty quick on his feet. No teleprompter required.

103 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:50:37am

re: #91 filetandrelease

Not anymore.

Downding, because it's crap to say that the electorate are morons only when they elect someone you don't like.

'The left' said that shit all the time about Bush voters.
Bullshit then, bullshit now.

104 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:51:12am

re: #97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh. I said to Mrs. FBV a second ago, "They're talking about running this guy for President already." She replied, "Jim Brown? Jim Scott? Scott Brown?"

He's got a little work to do.

James Brown!

105 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:51:29am

re: #99 Pete(Detroit)

Oh good lord. Yeah, Obama's an evil socialist. That's the ticket.

106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:52:27am

re: #96 filetandrelease

Oh, I know... mine was a joke too. Lamar Alexander didn't always wear a flannel shirt, nor did Paul Simon always wear a bow tie.

107 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:53:01am

Term limits, our only hope in the long run. It is idealistic thinking to assume as a country we will rid ourselves of unworthy politicians. Pay them a decent salary, and no long term benefits.

108 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:53:19am

re: #104 Mad Al-Jaffee

James Brown!

yeah!....finally some common sense!

109 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:53:51am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

I would have found it very hard to vote for Coakely, because I have a problem with her prosecution record. She does not seem in any way to be the right candidate for that area. It shows the main thing that the Democrats have in common with the GOP-- a total arrogance about the political class being separate from the electorate. The voters didn't want Coakely, so why did you give them Coakely?

110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:53:51am

Can't find the Cosmo pic of Senator Elect Brown? Someone send me linky.

Trying to get Mrs. FBV in the "mood".

111 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:54:31am

re: #105 Obdicut

not sure if i would say an EEEEEvil socialist, more like an ill tempered socialist...

112 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:54:33am

re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I saw it on Wonkette today.

113 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:54:37am

re: #101 Ojoe

Want me to post the Modern Whig party link?

Why not? I wasn't aware of such a thing..

114 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:54:50am

re: #106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I know... mine was a joke too. Lamar Alexander didn't always wear a flannel shirt, nor did Paul Simon always wear a bow tie.

However, Al Franken is always a tool. So at least he got that part right.

115 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:54:50am

Kerry is, at this moment, contemplating retirement

116 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:03am

re: #88 iceweasel

Now, why would Olbermann (!!) cut short his coverage on election night? The night when Obama (yes, really) won a landslide victory?

I'm not especially a fan of Olbermann, btw. But I really doubt that he took to his bed in despair at 'Republican victories' last November.

I think he found a schtick and works it. Basically what I think about a few people-- Coulter and Rush, for example.


Here is a story about Olby's disappearance last fall.

Olbermann Offers Limited Coverage Of Republican Election Victory

117 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:03am

re: #99 Pete(Detroit)

O's socialist policies, from "Health Care" to "Sharing the Wealth" to "Cap / Tax" are designed to destroy the greatness of the individual, and this country that is based on personal rights.

Now that just made me LOL...Obama a socialist....snort

(being sick without a Doctor to go to because you have no money to pay for one is an awesome bit of "individual greatness".)

118 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:18am

re: #111 huggy77

not sure if i would say an EEEvil socialist, more like an ill tempered socialist...

Do they have laser attached to their heads?

119 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:31am

re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Your text to link...

LOL

120 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:33am

re: #111 huggy77

That you'd say 'socialist', when he isn't, is kind of the problem, though.

121 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:55:40am

re: #103 iceweasel

Downding, because it's crap to say that the electorate are morons only when they elect someone you don't like.

'The left' said that shit all the time about Bush voters.
Bullshit then, bullshit now.

Can't argue that, but then again, the Republicans seem to on a roll, like the electorate is waking up. Is more what I meant.

122 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:56:04am

My job would be much easier if I didn't have to fool with all the dang customers. Managing the office would be a snap if I didn't have to deal with the employees. And government would go much more smoothly if politicians didn't have to pay heed to the pesky voters.

/ need I?

123 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:56:12am

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a story about Olby's disappearance last fall.

Olbermann Offers Limited Coverage Of Republican Election Victory

whoops!

124 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:57:09am

re: #76 filetandrelease

You are so welcome.

125 Ojoe  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:57:19am

re: #113 Pete(Detroit)

Link to the Modern Whig party.

Centrists.

126 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:58:04am

re: #109 Obdicut

The voters didn't want Coakely, so why did you give them Coakely?

I'm still trying to make sense of that poll but this stands out to me.....

the firm discovered that 18 percent of Obama backers who voted in the Senate race ended up casting ballots for Brown. Of that group:

* 82 percent said they favored a public option for insurance coverage, with 14 percent opposed to the public option

So this wasn't a referendum on healthcare reform. They disliked coakley so much they voted against her even though they support reform.

127 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:58:19am

re: #105 Obdicut

Oh good lord. Yeah, Obama's an evil socialist. That's the ticket.

Any evidence, and I mean ANY that he's not?
Or, are you trying to claim that socialism isn't evil?
Just trying to see what part of the statement you have an issue with (and, for the record, there are evil "conservatives" as well, but O's the one in charge at the moment, and as such needs to be opposed, nay fought wit all vigor)

128 Bloodnok  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:59:18am

re: #109 Obdicut

re: #100 Killgore Trout

I would have found it very hard to vote for Coakely, because I have a problem with her prosecution record. She does not seem in any way to be the right candidate for that area. It shows the main thing that the Democrats have in common with the GOP-- a total arrogance about the political class being separate from the electorate. The voters didn't want Coakely, so why did you give them Coakely?

The Dem voters did want Coakley. She won the Democratic primary against several opponents, including Rep. Mike Capuano. They can only blame themselves for this.

129 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:59:26am

re: #116 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a story about Olby's disappearance last fall.

Olbermann Offers Limited Coverage Of Republican Election Victory

Did you read it? As biased as it is, it says this:

One can hardly fault Olbermann for looking after his ailing father

Trust me, he wasn't 'distraught over Repub victories' last November.

130 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:59:30am

re: #125 Ojoe

Link to the Modern Whig party.

Centrists.

As in, caught between the Scylla and Charybdis of the Dems and the GOP, like all third parties.

131 darthstar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 8:59:54am

Coakley was a crappy candidate. She assumed she'd coast into the job and didn't take Brown seriously. Additionally, the Democratic party didn't help much by capitulating and compromising themselves into irrelevance the last 12 months. The way they've handled the HCR debate, the Republicans could have derailed them with only 38 seats in the senate...so it's not the GOP's fault they're in this pickle.

One of two things can happen now:
1. The Democrats can wake up and realize that an 18 seat majority still isn't the worst thing in the world and go populist (screw the bankers instead of the people, use reconciliation when filibusters are promised, stop being defensive and responding to people like Beck and Palin, etc.), and maybe they can hold onto the majority beyond November.

2. The Democrats can decide that they need to be nicer to the GOP and not pressure them into saying "No." all the time, and come November, we can get a split Senate and house.

132 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:00:15am

re: #127 Pete(Detroit)

Any evidence, and I mean ANY that he's not?
Or, are you trying to claim that socialism isn't evil?

Any evidence that he is?
You know, an evil socialist.

And on the scale of evil where would you rate socialism?

133 simoom  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:00:32am

re: #45 Pete(Detroit)

Never mind the boos and jeers that O got when he was trying to campaign for her...

You mean the rabid, anti-choice, father-and-son hecklers waving "Jesus Loves All Babies" fetus signs screaming about abortion shedding "innocent blood"?

I don't really see how those hecklers tell us anything about Massachusetts Obama discontent, especially since Coakley's opponent was also claiming to be pro-choice.

134 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:01:24am

re: #132 webevintage

Any evidence that he is?
You know, an evil socialist.

And on the scale of evil where would you rate socialism?

Thou Shalt Not Steal.

135 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:02:18am

re: #129 iceweasel

Trust me, he wasn't 'distraught over Repub victories' last November.

...looking after his ailing father.

At the World Series?

136 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:03:31am

re: #129 iceweasel

Trust me, he wasn't 'distraught over Repub victories' last November.

I wonder then what ailed his father...if he indeed was

137 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:03:38am

re: #88 iceweasel

You're getting the 2008 presidential election and the 2009 elections confused. Obama won in 2008, but Democrats lost the VA and NJ gubernatorial races last year. That's when Matthews cut short his shtick.

138 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:04:15am

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Let me try: Democrats who voted for Brown think Obama's agenda is not far enough left (eg., watered down health care non-reform reform). They are also pissed that Obama spent trillions on what he calls "fat cats" with no improvement in things for the working stiff. The Republican voters just hate the Democrats' agenda in general. And the independent voters fell into one or the other camp. In other words, no one is happy.

139 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:04:52am

re: #120 Obdicut
how could someone think that...

140 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:05:00am

re: #134 The Sanity Inspector

Thou Shalt Not Steal.

good one

141 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:05:50am

re: #117 webevintage
(being sick without a Doctor to go to because you have no money to pay for one is an awesome bit of "individual greatness".)

Actually, it is.
It is not my place to tell you how to spend your money / allocate your priorities.
Never mind that you can go to any hospital and get treatment.
Yes, I know that is a very expensive way to deliver services.
That having been said, there are certainly arguments for "public" clinics for basic health functions, especially routine immunizations, check-ups, etc.
And, certainly there are things the Gov't can do to encourage more personal responsibility wrt to one's health, and the paying for bills related to same.
Bottom line - the major factors in YOUR health are YOUR diet, YOUR lifestyle, YOUR exercise, YOUR smoking / other habits - why should anyone but YOU pay the frieght?

142 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:06:22am

re: #128 Bloodnok

The primary had hardly anyone in it, though. Capuno was her only serious competitor, and Clinton made calls for her. To me, it looks as though the political machine decided she was the one, for machine reasons.

143 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:08:51am

The bickering reminds me of the Palin/McCain camp infighting. No, I am not going to buy the book. Any of them. Sure gets nasty on either side of the aisle.

144 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:08:54am

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)

(being sick without a Doctor to go to because you have no money to pay for one is an awesome bit of "individual greatness".)


Actually, it is.
It is not my place to tell you how to spend your money / allocate your priorities.
Never mind that you can go to any hospital and get treatment.
Yes, I know that is a very expensive way to deliver services.
That having been said, there are certainly arguments for "public" clinics for basic health functions, especially routine immunizations, check-ups, etc.
And, certainly there are things the Gov't can do to encourage more personal responsibility wrt to one's health, and the paying for bills related to same.
Bottom line - the major factors in YOUR health are YOUR diet, YOUR lifestyle, YOUR exercise, YOUR smoking / other habits - why should anyone but YOU pay the frieght?

personal responsibility and choice? But doesn't the govt. know whats best for me...

145 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:08:58am

re: #137 lawhawk

You're getting the 2008 presidential election and the 2009 elections confused. Obama won in 2008, but Democrats lost the VA and NJ gubernatorial races last year. That's when Matthews cut short his shtick.

Looks like quite a few are invested in maintaining the illusion that Olbermann will take to his bed on these results.

I maintain what I have always maintained here: KO has a schtick and works it. He'll be energized, not distraught, over the Brown victory. Like Rush, he knows where the money (and ratings) come from.

BTW, the person who first claimed it was 'last November'? Yeah, not me.

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:09:14am

re: #119 harrylook

Your text to link...

LOL

She just said, "That's a purdy man." Then looked at me.

So much for "mood".

147 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:09:39am

Palin, Bachmann hitting the trail together

Two Republican Party superstars -- Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin -- will be stumping in Minnesota in April.

The former Alaska governor will make a campaign appearance with the Sixth District congresswoman who's running for a third term, Bachmann announced Tuesday.

Announcing Palin's scheduled appearance, Bachmann is quoted as saying: "There is absolutely no one more in tune with the hearts and minds of everyday Americans than Governor Palin, and I'm excited to welcome her back to our beautiful state this spring."

148 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:09:55am

from M Barone

But Scott Brown's victory was not just a rejection of Democrats' health care plans. Brown also stoutly opposed the Democrats' cap-and-trade legislation to reduce carbon emissions. He spoke out strongly for trying terrorists like the Christmas bomber in military tribunals, not in the civil court system where lawyers would advise them to quit talking. He talked about cutting taxes rather than raising them as Democrats are preparing to do.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: [Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

149 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:10:10am

re: #139 huggy77

Well, that's what I'm asking you.

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)


Bottom line - the major factors in YOUR health are YOUR diet, YOUR lifestyle, YOUR exercise, YOUR smoking / other habits - why should anyone but YOU pay the frieght?


Nah, that's not a correct statement. For many people, genetics are the most major factor in their health-- you could easily make the argument that genetics are the overwhelming factor in everyone's health.

I was born with a bizarre joint condition-- so rare that it doesn't actually have a name or anything. Right now, it's no problem at all, it just makes me really flexible. However, even though nobody knows what the hell it is, most joint conditions tend to have problems as you age. It is very, very likely that I'm going to develop crippling arthritis at some point. There is nothing that I could possibly do about that, medically speaking.

150 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:10:20am

re: #119 harrylook

Your text to link...

LOL

MY EYES!

151 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:10:31am

re: #131 darthstar

Coakley was a crappy candidate. She assumed she'd coast into the job and didn't take Brown seriously. Additionally, the Democratic party didn't help much by capitulating and compromising themselves into irrelevance the last 12 months. The way they've handled the HCR debate, the Republicans could have derailed them with only 38 seats in the senate...so it's not the GOP's fault they're in this pickle.

One of two things can happen now:
1. The Democrats can wake up and realize that an 18 seat majority still isn't the worst thing in the world and go populist (screw the bankers instead of the people, use reconciliation when filibusters are promised, stop being defensive and responding to people like Beck and Palin, etc.), and maybe they can hold onto the majority beyond November.

2. The Democrats can decide that they need to be nicer to the GOP and not pressure them into saying "No." all the time, and come November, we can get a split Senate and house.

Very well said.

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:10:51am

re: #145 iceweasel

yup.

His schtick has schtuck.

153 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:11:25am

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Palin, Bachmann hitting the trail together

God help us (conservatives).

154 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:11:34am

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)

Heaven forbid we catch a virus.

155 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:12:14am

re: #153 BruceKelly

God help us (conservatives).

that's just what they are saying

156 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:14:06am

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)

why should anyone but YOU pay the frieght?

Sorry, I've never bought into "I've got mine, screw you" as a good way to treat your fellow citizens or govern a country.

157 jpkoch  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:14:07am

re: #131 darthstar

darthstar,
There are 3 words that no Democratic will utter in the same sentence: health, care, and reform. ObamaReidPelosiCare is dead. What the Democrats attempted to do was not only impractical, but unworkable. Both versions of this bill were highly complex, almost impossible to understand, and required very large bribes to get the lawmakers to buy off on it. You know the game is up when the voters of Hyanisport voted for Brown with a 61% majority.

158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:15:08am

re: #119 harrylook

Oh, thanks Harry.

159 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:15:09am

re: #150 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

MY EYES!

Be careful what you click on. It's impossible to unsee something.

160 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:15:29am

re: #157 jpkoch

We need healthcare reform, though. That's the really awkward part about the fight to make this issue toxic.

161 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:15:40am

re: #140 albusteve

good one

Only if you work from the presumption that all taxes are theft. Some do, I know, but I live in a world where we are all a part of a social contract that has expenses that need to be met for the common benefit. Those who don't like it are, certainly, welcome to create another one in another place...

William

162 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:15:41am

re: #155 albusteve

Good one.

163 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:16:02am

Dutch MP in court for “inciting hatred”

Right-wing Dutch MP Geert Wilders has appeared before a court in Amsterdam charged with inciting hatred and discrimination against Muslims.

The case being seen as a test of freedom of expression the Netherlands.

Wilders is on trail after a court overruled a decision by the public prosecutor, who argued Wilders was protected by the right to free speech.

Outside the court, a crowd of protesters voiced support for the Freedom Party leader.

This man said: “Freedom of speech is very important in the Netherlands and it will take a lot to change that.”

The MP is charged over his 2008 film “Fitna” which accused the Koran of promoting violence, Wilders mixed images of terrorist attacks with quotations from the holy book.

164 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:16:30am

new assignment for a community organizer...

But Michelle Obama may be Haiti’s best bet. Though she lacks formal experience with Haiti and a strong foreign policy background, her institutional and organizational skills, coupled with her ability to get to the heart of an issue keeps her under consideration

hopefully a good thing

[Link: www.theroot.com...]

165 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:16:34am

re: #160 Obdicut

We need healthcare reform, though. That's the really awkward part about the fight to make this issue toxic.

Not the health care reform monstrosity that was railroaded through Congress, though. Something probably does need to be done, but I don't think Obamacare was it.

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:16:49am

re: #131 darthstar

The Democrats can wake up and realize that an 18 seat majority still isn't the worst thing in the world and go populist (screw the bankers instead of the people, use reconciliation when filibusters are promised, stop being defensive and responding to people like Beck and Palin, etc.), and maybe they can hold onto the majority beyond November.

Why we have to screw anyone?

167 zelnaga  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:17:09am

The biggest worry I have about Brown is that I suspect he may be opposed to any attempts at health care reform. I don't like the health care reform that's being considered by Congress right now but that doesn't mean I don't think health care could use reform.

I'm opposed to the individual mandate - not to the idea of reform. And the whole health insurance exchange just seems like a joke. What incentive do providers have to participate? Seems to me that, if anything, they have a disincentive, in the form of increased regulation. And what if they did use it? How easy would it be for individuals to use it? If this mythical exchange is supposed to be a website will it be a usable one? It's hard to discuss the virtues of an exchange that doesn't yet exist.

So, any ideas? Is Brown opposed to any sort of health care reform or is he just opposed to the health care reform currently being proposed?

168 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:17:40am

re: #159 BruceKelly

Be careful what you click on. It's impossible to unsee something.

Could have been worse

169 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:19:41am

re: #165 thedopefishlives

Not the health care reform monstrosity that was railroaded through Congress, though. Something probably does need to be done, but I don't think Obamacare was it.

health insurance reform is what we are getting, exactly what people don't want...a massive govt intrusion that will not lower costs

170 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:19:50am

re: #168 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Could have been worse

MY EYES!

171 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:19:59am

re: #165 thedopefishlives

Not the health care reform monstrosity that was railroaded through Congress, though. Something probably does need to be done, but I don't think Obamacare was it.

I'll be the first to admit that I have been back-and-forth on the whole HRC thing, but I do know something must be done. But the biggest problem I have is that I know that the GOP will not address the issue. Hell, McCain only brought it up because the Dems were talking about it so much. He wouldn't have said a word otherwise.

It's Obamacare or nothing. I'm not sure which I would rather have, but I know the GOP will not be presenting a third option.

172 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:20:17am

re: #165 thedopefishlives

That's fine. But something needs to be done. There's this pervasive sense that I'm getting from the GOP and people happy with the Brown victory that defeating the health care bill fixes a problem. It doesn't. At the most, it prevents a problem.

I don't see any actual solutions being proposed by the GOP, and since they have now protested against basically every form of healthcare reform, I'm really unsure what they could possibly propose.

173 Buck  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:20:23am

re: #1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

She was a terrible candidate.

However, I think she would have won if Bush were still President.

IMO I think she would have won if Ted was still alive. The mistake was that Ted didn't resign and allow the party to use him to get their candidate elected.

174 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:20:50am

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)

the major factors in YOUR health are YOUR diet, YOUR lifestyle, YOUR exercise, YOUR smoking / other habits - why should anyone but YOU pay the frieght?

Not so much in many cases. In my own case, I have Type I diabetes - an autoimmune disease unrelated to any of the factors you mention, and one with no cure. Lifelong maintenance is the only effective treatment at the moment, involving multiple daily blood sugar samples and insulin shots. The disease also increases risk of heart disease, gangrene, glaucoma and a host of other ailments.

Similarly, heart disease has a strong genetic component. It can certainly be influenced by lifestyle, but many people who go above and beyond in terms of proper diet, exercise and other choices wind up having heart attacks anyway. Cancer is similar - people who have never smoked develop lung cancer, for example; and leukemia has a nasty habit of striking young children, who haven't been around long enough for lifestyle or environmental factors to have played any role in their disease at all.

As for me paying my own way, that doesn't happen under the current system. My insurance is largely paid for by my employer, and the costs incurred are spread across the entire subscriber base. If I don't have insurance, and wind up obtaining medical care through an emergency room, society as a whole bears that cost. The only people paying directly, out of pocket for the full cost of their medical care are those who are having elective procedures done, like botox injections or liposuction.

176 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:21:27am

re: #170 BruceKelly

MY EYES!

Ah. The circle is now complete.

177 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:21:37am

re: #167 zelnaga

Is Brown opposed to any sort of health care reform or is he just opposed to the health care reform currently being proposed?

The Republican mantra is to "kill the Bill" not "improve the bill". They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts. The Tea Party/Glenn Beck rhetoric about fascism and socialism means that any efforts to cooperate with Dems would be political suicide. There will be no bipartisan effort on healthcare reform.

179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:22:04am

re: #174 SixDegrees

The wife is Type I. If I may ask, you on a pump or daily injections?

180 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:22:11am

re: #172 Obdicut

Granted, the GOP has no solution. The Party of No and all that. That being said, I have to wonder what problem we're actually trying to fix with health care reform in the first place. That seems to have been poorly thought out by both sides - or rather, poorly thought out by one side and completely un-thought out by the other. Before spending all my tax money on a project, I'd like to see the business case, thanks.

181 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:22:56am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

The Republican mantra is to "kill the Bill" not "improve the bill". They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts. The Tea Party/Glenn Beck rhetoric about fascism and socialism means that any efforts to cooperate with Dems would be political suicide. There will be no bipartisan effort on healthcare reform.

KT, your attempt to still paint Brown as a whack-a-doo gun toting Teabagger is not working because he is not a far right teabagging candidate.

Did you watch his speech?

182 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:23:04am

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Screwing the bankers has really worked out well for New York; with investment bankers and Wall Street being a top revenue generator for the state (hit with multiple state and city taxes on high income earners), when the market fell apart and banks folded and consolidated, NYC and NYS got hammered. Hard. Multibillion dollar budget gaps that had to be made up.

Going after the same group that just stopped being a revenue generator is a stroke of genius. I'm sure the numbers will really work out well. /

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:23:18am

re: #173 Buck

Excellent point.

184 simoom  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:23:29am

BTW, did anyone catch Brown's press conference this morning? He seemed to be striking an uber-moderate tone, which says to me he's going to attempt to keep the his seat in two years (as opposed to the scenario Drudge is pushing of his running for the presidency in 2012, or going the total obstructionist route and losing the seat in a tea-partying blaze of glory).

What will be interesting is how the tea party activists and movement conservatives who dumped out-of-state money into his campaign will respond if he isn't providing them with the right atmospherics.

185 Baier  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:23:58am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

The Republican mantra is to "kill the Bill" not "improve the bill". They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts. The Tea Party/Glenn Beck rhetoric about fascism and socialism means that any efforts to cooperate with Dems would be political suicide. There will be no bipartisan effort on healthcare reform.

I disagree. I'm not sure what will pan out, but I think there are Republicans that will support health care. The dems only need one. I do hope that the republicans at least take part in the debate this time around.

186 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:24:07am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pumper here. :)

187 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:24:13am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The wife is Type I. If I may ask, you on a pump or daily injections?

That is so asking for an "in bed", but I will resist.

188 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:24:39am

SteveC: I blame FBV!

FBV: Me!?!? What did I do?!?!

SteveC: We'll think of something!

189 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:25:21am

re: #181 Ben Hur

KT, your attempt to still paint Brown as a whack-a-doo gun toting Teabagger is not working because he is not a far right teabagging candidate.

Did you watch his speech?

Fivethirtyeight: Scott Brown is a Liberal Republican

190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:25:33am

re: #186 harrylook

We were talking about it this morning. She was on the pump when she was pregnant. But was a huge pain in the ass, but that was 25 years ago. Are they less of a pain in the ass now?

191 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:25:34am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The wife is Type I. If I may ask, you on a pump or daily injections?

Multiple daily injections.

192 Buck  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:26:03am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

The Republican mantra is to "kill the Bill" not "improve the bill". They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts. The Tea Party/Glenn Beck rhetoric about fascism and socialism means that any efforts to cooperate with Dems would be political suicide. There will be no bipartisan effort on healthcare reform.

The Republican mantra is "start over". Republicans agree with Reform, just not this Reform that bankrupts America.

193 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:26:26am

re: #180 thedopefishlives

Granted, the GOP has no solution. The Party of No and all that. That being said, I have to wonder what problem we're actually trying to fix with health care reform in the first place. That seems to have been poorly thought out by both sides - or rather, poorly thought out by one side and completely un-thought out by the other. Before spending all my tax money on a project, I'd like to see the business case, thanks.

if the bill was any good, why did Reid have to buy off NE, LA, NV, at the expense of the rest of us?....this is not a decent bill, it's fucking criminal imo

194 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:26:48am

re: #180 thedopefishlives

Well, that's one of my main complaints to the Democrats; the economic argument is easy to make for many kinds of health care reform, and they kind of refused to make it. Small businesses are the key, to my mind, of why we need UHC. But the Democrats flubbed it all to hell.

My point is, however, that the GOP has now poisoned the well to the point that they've ruined the chances of any type of meaningful health care reform, and done so for what appears to me to be almost entirely ideological or, being more cynical, political reasons.

195 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:26:52am

re: #181 Ben Hur

Strawman. He seems rather moderate to me. However, the political climate is such that he would have a very short career if he was caught cooperating with the Dems on healthcare reform.

196 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:27:09am

re: #189 Soap_Man

Fivethirtyeight: Scott Brown is a Liberal Republican

But that doesn't fit the narrative.

The narrative must be upheld at all costs.

All hail the narrative.

And talking points.

And calls.

197 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:27:40am

re: #193 albusteve

if the bill was any good, why did Reid have to buy off NE, LA, NV, at the expense of the rest of us?...this is not a decent bill, it's fucking criminal imo

Don't forget the unions!

198 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:28:12am

re: #184 simoom

striking an uber-moderate tone

No "tone" about it

Brown IS a moderate. Yes, he's a repub and leans right on most issues, but he is no far right windnut as Kerry et al tried to portray him as

199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:28:27am

re: #191 SixDegrees

Multiple daily injections.

Saw her Endocrinologist this morning for the first time in years. He said, she looks 20 years younger than she is.

Has some issues that we're working on health wise, we're gonna explore the pump after we figure out what the heck is going on.

200 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:28:28am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

The Republican mantra is to "kill the Bill" not "improve the bill". They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts. The Tea Party/Glenn Beck rhetoric about fascism and socialism means that any efforts to cooperate with Dems would be political suicide. There will be no bipartisan effort on healthcare reform.

Very true.
Also, I will add that the Brown win doesn't mean much in that area. The Dems always and only had a 'supermajority' in name only, which is one reason why we didn't see HCR passed in the previous 4 months. Blue Dogs, etc.
The Repubs will oppose all efforts at it. Many Dems will collude in those efforts.
So it goes.

201 Buck  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:28:42am

re: #193 albusteve

if the bill was any good, why did Reid have to buy off NE, LA, NV, at the expense of the rest of us?...this is not a decent bill, it's fucking criminal imo

Good point. AND Obama himself bribed the Unions to support it.

Anyone who says it is "a good bill" needs to be asked "Which one" There is no final bill to really judge. So if someone says it is good they are just saying it doesn't matter what the final bill says, they support anything.

202 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:28:59am

re: #145 iceweasel


BTW, the person who first claimed it was 'last November'? Yeah, not me.

That was me. Weren't the Va & NJ governor races last November? I believe they were. Olbermann went AWOL after the Dems lost both races and he was looking after his ailing father at Yankee Stadium with help from Sean Hannity, right. Doesn't everyone take time off from work to be with sick relatives at baseball games?

203 captdiggs  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:29:07am

re: #21 NJDhockeyfan

“In many ways the campaign in Massachusetts became a referendum not only on health care reform but also on the openness and integrity of our government process. It is vital that we restore the respect of the American people in our system of government and in our leaders. To that end, I believe it would only be fair and prudent that we suspend further votes on health care legislation until Senator-elect Brown is seated.”

~Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA)

There are a lot of national implications in this election, but I think the most offensive regarding health care was the back room Union deal making.
Exempting certain Union health plans from the taxation to pay for the bill obviously meant that everyone else would be subsidizing their plans.
It's not the only factor, but Brown's poll numbers started their jump after that. Coincidence? No, not in my opinion.

204 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:29:41am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Strawman. He seems rather moderate to me. However, the political climate is such that he would have a very short career if he was caught cooperating with the Dems on healthcare reform.

Strawman?

OK, KT.

Have fun trying to square up your recent theories with the reality of the election.

205 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:29:50am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

They are going to oppose any healthcare reform efforts
incorrect, but nice attempt at trying to paint Brown as farrightwinfglennbeckponpaulteabagger!

206 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:29:58am

re: #191 SixDegrees

Multiple daily injections.

A NewsBabe on Fox was reporting on recommendations from the American Heart Association for living longer. Story concludes, she chuckles "Don't drink, don't smoke, less than 1500 milligrams of salt a day? Not me!"

Honey, that's normal for a lot of your viewers. Wait until your health goes in the shitter, you'll do a lot of things that you think you won't do.

207 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:06am

Another exit poll....
Exit Survey Of Massachusetts Voters Confirms Lack Of Enthusiasm Among Progressives Hurt Coakley

The poll, which was commissioned by “Women’s Voices, Women Vote” and conducted by Lake Research Partners (a firm headed by Martha Coakley’s pollster Celinda Lake), found that key demographic supporters of Obama (unmarried women, people of color, and younger voters) did not turn out in large numbers for Democrats. The Massachusetts turnout reflects recent trends in the Virginia and New Jersey gubernatorial elections.
.....
But even despite the depressed progressive turnout in yesterday’s election, a majority of voters (51%) still felt Obama and the Democrats are taking the country in the right direction. Issues, while important to voters, split along partisan lines: Coakley won health care voters, while Brown won among jobs and economy voters and tax/spending voters:

208 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:10am

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Saw her Endocrinologist this morning for the first time in years. He said, she looks 20 years younger than she is.

Has some issues that we're working on health wise, we're gonna explore the pump after we figure out what the heck is going on.

Keep me posted. I've stayed away from pumps because of the PITA factor, but like you I haven't looked into it in much detail for several years.

209 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:27am

re: #200 iceweasel

Very true.
Also, I will add that the Brown win doesn't mean much in that area. The Dems always and only had a 'supermajority' in name only, which is one reason why we didn't see HCR passed in the previous 4 months. Blue Dogs, etc.
The Repubs will oppose all efforts at it. Many Dems will collude in those efforts.
So it goes.

Sure as sh*t meant alot 24 hrs ago.

210 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:27am

re: #200 iceweasel

Very true.
Also, I will add that the Brown win doesn't mean much in that area. The Dems always and only had a 'supermajority' in name only, which is one reason why we didn't see HCR passed in the previous 4 months. Blue Dogs, etc.
The Repubs will oppose all efforts at it. Many Dems will collude in those efforts.
So it goes.

And they should. The gross expansion of entitlements and ridiculous mandates warrants a full blockage by Republicans.

Reform does NOT have to equal expansion of government...it has merely been framed that way by politicians who love their power and the people who they grow to depend on them being in office.

211 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:30am

re: #149 Obdicut

Definitely is a statist...

As far as socialist, i would not be an expert on socialism but the Chicago Democratic Socialists where quoted as saying his views are:
"well within the mainstream of European social democracy."

he was endorsed by socialists and attended socailists events

wants socialized medicine...

Turned to Govt Ownership of the banks and auto industry to try and fix them...

212 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:48am

re: #190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am sure the technology is a lot better now than it was then. There are basically two types: ones with tubing and one's without. I have the former. It's real small - fits in my pocket - and I run the tube through a hole in my pocket up to the infusion site. No one knows I have it unless I tell them.

The other type just sits on your abdomen - the whole pump. The advantage is no tubing, but I find it bulky and unsexy. To each his own.

Pumping isn't for everyone, but I like being able to skip meals when needed, and easily correct high BG. Also, to tie this into the thread, I'm lucky to have great insurance that pays for everything. If you don't, pumping is expensive.

213 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:30:58am

re: #205 sattv4u2

See #195

214 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:31:27am

re: #200 iceweasel

215 jpkoch  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:32:26am

re: #174 SixDegrees

SixDegrees,
This is an alternate solution (I don't know if the GOP offered it) for high risk insurance. The federal government would allow high risk patients to pool together across state-lines, as well as to offer a subsidy. High risk patients would still have pay something into the pool, but the costs would be spread across the entire nation -something that currently cannot be done from a legal perspective (the states regulate the health insurance industry).

216 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:32:30am

So much for the demise of the Republican Party. Recent elections have sure blown that myth out of the water.

217 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:32:41am

re: #182 lawhawk

But dont you feel better that those eeevil bankers are getting punished for being productive...

218 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:33:31am

re: #217 huggy77

But dont you feel better that those eeevil bankers are getting punished for being productive...

/

219 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:33:38am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

See #195

See #177

220 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:35:12am

re: #206 SteveC

A NewsBabe on Fox was reporting on recommendations from the American Heart Association for living longer. Story concludes, she chuckles "Don't drink, don't smoke, less than 1500 milligrams of salt a day? Not me!"

Honey, that's normal for a lot of your viewers. Wait until your health goes in the shitter, you'll do a lot of things that you think you won't do.

I quit smoking several years ago, after a long, long struggle, and haven't looked back. It's bad for you, mmmkay? And you get nothing in return from it. I drink, but not much - maybe a bottle of wine every couple of weeks, and probably half of that gets poured down the sink 'cause I don't feel like finishing it.

Salt...well, I'm probably bad about that. But I do most of my cooking from scratch. And there's actually some question over whether salt is all that bad for you. Some people are sensitive to it, and for them it boosts blood pressure, but it turns out this is rather rare; most people can severely restrict their salt intake and see no change in their blood pressure. So unless I see a problem, I put on as much salt as I think a meal needs.

221 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:35:32am

re: #193 albusteve

if the bill was any good, why did Reid have to buy off NE, LA, NV, at the expense of the rest of us?...this is not a decent bill, it's fucking criminal imo

Quite Concur.

222 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:35:46am

re: #209 Ben Hur

Sure as sh*t meant alot 24 hrs ago.

To who?
To lots of conservatives here. Who apparently needed repeated assurances from the libs here that, sad to say, we weren't especially surprised, or alarmed, by the outcome. Still less 'panicked'.
Coakley deserved to lose and she did. You'll find posts from me and other libs saying as much-- and predicting as much-- days defore the election.

223 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:35:53am

re: #216 filetandrelease

So much for the demise of the Republican Party. Recent elections have sure blown that myth out of the water.

You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Realistically speaking, it's only true that the Republican Party isn't dead if they make a correct assessment of what's been going on. If they start fielding teabaggers and other nutjobs, they'll be just as hosed as they were when they were putting forward big-spending RINOs.

224 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:35:55am

re: #132 webevintage

Any evidence that he is?
You know, an evil socialist.

And on the scale of evil where would you rate socialism?

Ok, to be fair his inroads on the transportation, manufacturing and banking industries have been more fascist than socialist, but from the 'socialized medicine' of the health care bill, lack of secret balloting in 'card check' levying 'special taxes' on financial institutions that are doing well, w/o doing anything about the losers that continue to drive Freddy / Fanny into the ground, cash for clunkers, etc, etc... it's all about "redistribution of wealth," the fundamental socialist concept. Included free are the simultaneous effects of penalizing success, and rewarding indolance.

As to 'how evil'? pretty much. Possibly not as bad as an absolute dictator like Saddam or Kim Jong il, but right up there. I mean, I just can't see saying 'well, they slaughtered their own citizens, and executed protesters, but at least they weren't communists"...
However, as a philosophy, anything that catagorically penalizes success (the more you make, the more we take) and rewards indolence (the less you have, the more you get) is guilty of rewardign bad behavior, and destroying the human spirit, and impeding the climb to greatness.
Granted, it's not gassing whole towns evil, nor blowing up innocent kids and grandmothers evil, but it's still evil. So, I guess on a scale to 10, I'd rate it a 6.5

225 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:36:35am

re: #200 iceweasel

Many Dems will collude in those efforts.
"collude" meaning a bipartisan agreement to defeat the bill?

226 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:37:59am

re: #206 SteveC

1500 mg of salt? Mayo Clinic says range of normal sodium is 1500 to 2400 mg. And Europe isn't doing much better on sodium intake either.

Sodium, for men they found a range of g 2.5–9.5 (2500-9500mg); women 2.0–6.4 (2000-6400mg), and the guidelines suggest 0.6–3.5** (600 to 3500mg). It seems to suggest that the lower limit for men is 2500mg and women 2000mg. So, pushing 1500mg may not even be reasonable or feasible.

I've read that the human body will adjust its intake to get sufficient sodium no matter how hard a person tries to limit sodium intake.

I'll stick with moderation and not going out of my way to add salt to my diet.

227 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:38:37am

re: #212 harrylook

The other type just sits on your abdomen - the whole pump. The advantage is no tubing, but I find it bulky and unsexy. To each his own.

Friend's daughter (16?) has a pump, he says hers looks like an iPod. No one really even notices.

A friend was having heart rhythm problems and they put him on a Holter Monitor which is a portable EKG that runs for 24 hours or longer. He wore it 30 days and had to fly during that time. TSA was *very* interested in his new accessory!

228 darthstar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:38:50am

Current conditions (just before the hail hit)

229 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:39:01am

re: #133 simoom

You mean the rabid, anti-choice, father-and-son hecklers waving "Jesus Loves All Babies" fetus signs screaming about abortion shedding "innocent blood"?

I don't really see how those hecklers tell us anything about Massachusetts Obama discontent, especially since Coakley's opponent was also claiming to be pro-choice.

Well, they got in the room... 18 mo ago, we had rooms packed w/ folks who were nearly orgasming at the sight of him, and 'fainting' they were so overcome. Now, they're so desperate to get people into the room that they have to let the freakie loud protesters in?
just sayin...

230 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:39:07am
231 jpkoch  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:39:22am

re: #160 Obdicut


It wasn't the GOP that made this issue toxic. Any kind of reasonable compromises were never considered in the mad dash to get Universal Coverage -something the voters didn't necessarily want. The main concern for the voters was the employment situation and their investment portfolios (in most cases 401ks). While unemployment went from 7% to 10%, Congress and the President were consumed by health care. And their creation of employee and employer mandates, premium increases, Medicare cuts, and a whole host of side deals and pay-outs sank reform in the voter's eyes. Without a backdrop of long term high unemployment, and a hugely complex change to their insurance, it is no wonder there is widespread nausea that crosses ideological lines.

232 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:39:23am

re: #223 thedopefishlives

Actually, my real point, as I have stated here over the last several months is that the suggestions of the independents running away from the Repulican Party do to tea parties etc... has shown over and over again to be exagerated.

233 elizajane  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:39:59am

I'm on the "she was a terrible candidate, period" side.
I'm a centrist Democrat and I used to live in Massachusetts--in fact, in the true blue Cambridge area. If I still lived there I'd have voted for Coakley, but I'd have been holding my nose while I did it. In fact, the ONLY reason I'd have voted for her would have been to save health care, and the ONLY reason I'd have done that is because I have a child with a "pre-existing" chronic condition who will never be able to get health insurance in the current system.
Otherwise, I'd probably actually have voted Republican. That's how little I think of Coakley. What an idiot.

234 TampaKnight  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:40:07am

I'm really enjoying the meltdown in progress at the HuffPo.

235 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:40:30am

re: #223 thedopefishlives

You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Realistically speaking, it's only true that the Republican Party isn't dead if they make a correct assessment of what's been going on. If they start fielding teabaggers and other nutjobs, they'll be just as hosed as they were when they were putting forward big-spending RINOs.

the GOP is not dead, but conservatism might be

236 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:40:37am

re: #224 Pete(Detroit)

Good lord, now Obama's a fascist? A socialist fascist.

I'm sorry, I can't take that argument seriously.

And now, time to save others asses at work. In a nice way, though.

237 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:41:18am

re: #220 SixDegrees

Salt...well, I'm probably bad about that. But I do most of my cooking from scratch. And there's actually some question over whether salt is all that bad for you. Some people are sensitive to it, and for them it boosts blood pressure, but it turns out this is rather rare; most people can severely restrict their salt intake and see no change in their blood pressure. So unless I see a problem, I put on as much salt as I think a meal needs.

I got to keep it low because of my heart. Tends to aggravate Congestive Heart Failure. No problem though - if we ever break bread together, I'll just shove the salt shaker towards your end of the table!

238 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:41:35am

re: #222 iceweasel

To who?
To lots of conservatives here. Who apparently needed repeated assurances from the libs here that, sad to say, we weren't especially surprised, or alarmed, by the outcome. Still less 'panicked'.
Coakley deserved to lose and she did. You'll find posts from me and other libs saying as much-- and predicting as much-- days defore the election.

You're right.

It's meaningless.

239 andres  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:41:56am

re: #2 albusteve

besides Choakly herself, I think tis speaks volumes for BOs too far left of center agenda...no question this is about policy more than personality

Dear God, suffering from extreme ODS?

240 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:42:30am

He didn't win by one point.

241 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:42:50am

re: #235 albusteve

the GOP is not dead, but conservatism might be

I don't think so.

242 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:42:59am

re: #234 TampaKnight

I'm really enjoying the meltdown in progress at the HuffPo.

Its fun to watch the other side meltdown, I agree. Iceweasel kept her cool and called this election correctly, but many American liberals are in circular firing squad mode today.

243 shiplord kirel  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:43:00am

I know quite a few folks in Massachusetts. There was a definite feeling that the Democrats were taking the voters for granted when they put up a miserably inept candidate like Coakley, as though the Dem overlords were saying, "Hey, it's Teddy's seat, we could run Charles Manson against Abe Lincoln and still win."

244 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:43:52am

re: #141 Pete(Detroit)

It is very, very likely that I'm going to develop crippling arthritis at some point. There is nothing that I could possibly do about that, medically speaking.

Sorry to hear that, and yes, everyone's genetics DO, absolutely, play a part. THAT being stipulated, are you claiming that your behaviour / choices have NO effect?

245 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:43:54am

re: #239 andres

Dear God, suffering from extreme ODS?

No, he just doesn't like the man or his policies much.

246 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:44:04am

re: #226 lawhawk

Sodium, for men they found a range of g 2.5–9.5 (2500-9500mg); women 2.0–6.4 (2000-6400mg), and the guidelines suggest 0.6–3.5** (600 to 3500mg). It seems to suggest that the lower limit for men is 2500mg and women 2000mg. So, pushing 1500mg may not even be reasonable or feasible.

My Congestive Heart Failure diet allows 2000 mg of sodium per day. You can't really go too much lower.

247 CommonCents  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:44:26am

re: #207 Killgore Trout

Another exit poll...
Exit Survey Of Massachusetts Voters Confirms Lack Of Enthusiasm Among Progressives Hurt Coakley

So is it official then that the terms "Democrat" and "progressive" are synonymous?

I was under the impression that a Nebraska Democrat wasn't necessarily a progressive. That is why he needed to be BRIBED with several hundred million dollars.

248 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:44:55am

re: #239 andres

Dear God, suffering from extreme ODS?

Apparently, he's Blaspheming.

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:45:00am

re: #228 darthstar

Hang on, Baby!

250 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:45:06am

re: #246 SteveC

My Congestive Heart Failure diet allows 2000 mg of sodium per day. You can't really go too much lower.

I've never really understood the 'congestive' aspect of that condition. What does it mean?

251 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:45:23am

re: #234 TampaKnight

I'm really enjoying the meltdown in progress at the HuffPo.

Somebody sloshed water on them?

//I'm melting! I'm Mellllllting!

252 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:45:25am

re: #239 andres

Dear God, suffering from extreme ODS?

no, just oppose the HC bill

253 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:45:43am

re: #237 SteveC

I got to keep it low because of my heart. Tends to aggravate Congestive Heart Failure. No problem though - if we ever break bread together, I'll just shove the salt shaker towards your end of the table!

I try to season my food properly while I'm preparing it - I rarely reach for the salt shaker. It's hard to say how effective this is, but I doubt I go through more than a couple tablespoons of kosher salt per day - for a family of four, with leftovers from most meals. Probably less.

The amount of salt added to processed foods, however, is alarming. Last time I had a McDonald's burger, I felt dehydrated for hours afterward.

254 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:46:18am

re: #252 albusteve

no, just oppose the HC bill

Don"t mock the Prophet.

255 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:46:28am

And I loved Scott Brown's line that we shouldn't be paying for lawyers for terrorists!

256 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:47:10am

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

I've never really understood the 'congestive' aspect of that condition. What does it mean?

congestion, restriction in the vessels

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:47:13am

"Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" is on In-Demand...

Gnarly.
George Carlin? Whoa....

258 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:47:25am

re: #255 sandbox

And I loved Scott Brown's line that we shouldn't be paying for lawyers for terrorists!

What should we do?

259 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:47:32am

re: #246 SteveC

My Congestive Heart Failure diet allows 2000 mg of sodium per day. You can't really go too much lower.

What does that work out to - a teaspoon or two?

260 CommonCents  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:48:20am

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

I've never really understood the 'congestive' aspect of that condition. What does it mean?

Think of traffic congestion and then think of the network of arteries and veins. They are packed with crap causing heart failure, or the roads are just too narrow to handle the traffic.

261 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:48:34am

re: #233 elizajane

the ONLY reason I'd have voted for her would have been to save health care, and the ONLY reason I'd have done that is because I have a child with a "pre-existing" chronic condition

I feel sorry for your childs condition, but no insurance (health, home or auto) covers pre-existing conditions. You can't buy a car with a smashed in front end, purchase ins then get the car fixed under that ins.

That stated, I do beleive we have to come up with a way to help our citizens with pre-existing conditions but apart from regular health ins. policies

262 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:48:39am

re: #222 iceweasel

To who?
To lots of conservatives here. Who apparently needed repeated assurances from the libs here that, sad to say, we weren't especially surprised, or alarmed, by the outcome. Still less 'panicked'.
Coakley deserved to lose and she did. You'll find posts from me and other libs saying as much-- and predicting as much-- days defore the election.

True, but this is a sanctuary where opposing views can be discussed with out vitriol. Mostly, often, sometimes.

Venture forth and panicked may not sound an unreasonable characteristic of left pundits or blogs noted to be liberal.

263 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:48:39am

re: #258 webevintage

What should we do?

try them via tribunals at Gitmo?

264 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:49:03am

re: #222 iceweasel

To who?
To lots of conservatives here. Who apparently needed repeated assurances from the libs here that, sad to say, we weren't especially surprised, or alarmed, by the outcome. Still less 'panicked'.
Coakley deserved to lose and she did. You'll find posts from me and other libs saying as much-- and predicting as much-- days defore the election.

upon review, I realized that this answer had zero to do with the point you were making: You were saying that a Brown victory wasn't that important to the Health Care Reform issue/vote? I said it was. And the above was the answer?

265 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:49:08am

re: #154 Stanley Sea

Heaven forbid we catch a virus.

Agreed. As noted, there are genuine public health concerns that are most effectively handled on a macro scale. I just happen to feel that the person who knows best how to take care of me (or at least to make the decisions about taking care of me) is ME.

Speaking of Viruses, when it hits the fan, funding wise, where is AIDS funding on the list of things that get cut? Higher or Lower than mammograms? cancer treatments? MRIs? Kidney Machines?
Just asking..

266 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:49:17am

re: #256 albusteve

re: #260 CommonCents

Thanks for that, guys.

267 jpkoch  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:50:31am

re: #200 iceweasel

Very true.
Also, I will add that the Brown win doesn't mean much in that area. The Dems always and only had a 'super majority' in name only, which is one reason why we didn't see HCR passed in the previous 4 months. Blue Dogs, etc.
The Repubs will oppose all efforts at it. Many Dems will collude in those efforts.
So it goes.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the vast majority of independents hate this bill in its entirety -that is from top to bottom. In their eyes, the best thing to do is start over from scratch. The Dems did have a super-majority, but this majority could not make the impossible possible (offering Universal Coverage without increasing the debt, and without rationing). There were a whole host of other problems that individual lawmakers were bribed to ignore. This bill is so bad that not even the residents of Hyanisport Mass. supported it.

268 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:50:48am

re: #258 webevintage

What should we do?

Brown said we should spend the money on weapons to defeat them.

269 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:50:57am

re: #156 webevintage

Sorry, I've never bought into "I've got mine, screw you" as a good way to treat your fellow citizens or govern a country.

Me either - I prefer I've got mine, why don't you get yours, we can do business.
What I have Very Little patience w/ is "Hey, you got some, I've done nothing, so gimmie"
Same as a mugging.

270 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:51:30am

re: #261 sattv4u2

the ONLY reason I'd have voted for her would have been to save health care, and the ONLY reason I'd have done that is because I have a child with a "pre-existing" chronic condition

I feel sorry for your childs condition, but no insurance (health, home or auto) covers pre-existing conditions. You can't buy a car with a smashed in front end, purchase ins then get the car fixed under that ins.

That stated, I do beleive we have to come up with a way to help our citizens with pre-existing conditions but apart from regular health ins. policies

Nearly all employer plans accept pre-existing conditions. The problem arises when you try to obtain your own coverage privately.

271 ulmsey123  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:51:56am

"I broke the dam!"

272 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:00am

re: #267 jpkoch

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the vast majority of independents hate this bill in its entirety -that is from top to bottom. In their eyes, the best thing to do is start over from scratch. The Dems did have a super-majority, but this majority could not make the impossible possible (offering Universal Coverage without increasing the debt, and without rationing). There were a whole host of other problems that individual lawmakers were bribed to ignore. This bill is so bad that not even the residents of Hyanisport Mass. supported it.

It has nothing to do with that.

She ran a bad campaign.

We were told 2 days ago.

273 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:06am

re: #268 harrylook

Brown said we should spend the money on weapons to defeat them.

Great line from him. He understands that this is a war and must be treated as one. Then again, he is in the Army Reserves so that is not surprising.

274 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:08am

re: #263 albusteve

Right, reverse the stupid decision to try the enemy combatants in civilian courts. Brown made this an issue in the campaign. Obama and Holder handed Brown and other Republicans an easy issue on which to score points.

275 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:48am

re: #264 Ben Hur

upon review, I realized that this answer had zero to do with the point you were making: You were saying that a Brown victory wasn't that important to the Health Care Reform issue/vote? I said it was. And the above was the answer?

I say that since MA already has state wide Healthcare you can hardly suggest that the voters were voting against that idea of government run healthcare unless Scott Brown was running on a platform of repealing what already exists.

Unless of course the MA voters are a bunch of assholes who cast a vote of "I've got mine you can f*** right off." Which I suppose is a possibility.

As for how it will affect the Healtcare bill in congress I hope Pelosia and Obama can heard the cats necessary to get the congressmen to agree to the senates plan, if we do that then we can land this thing on a wing on a prayr yet...

276 The Left  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:49am

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

Its fun to watch the other side meltdown, I agree. Iceweasel kept her cool and called this election correctly, but many American liberals are in circular firing squad mode today.

cheers DF, and nice to see you! before I take off!-- but I don't really deserve much credit there. I hate the Dems as much as anyone might, and really Coakley was on my shitlist for good once they ran with that fake brown rape flyer.
And I don't like Brown either, or his positions, but I really hate lies by candidates and their campaigns. Deliberate smears and distortions, I mean, like Coakley's mailing.

I look forward to the day when that shit is no longer the stuff of our discourse. On either side, Dems and Repubs both.

Until then, candidates and campaigns who employ should always lose. Period. (imo)

277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:52:52am

BBIAB...

Gonna watch Bill and Ted and some most excellent dead dudes.

278 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:53:12am

re: #270 SixDegrees

Nearly all employer plans accept pre-existing conditions. The problem arises when you try to obtain your own coverage privately.

Not anything catastrophic

A sinus condition (allergies, etc) , sure

Bit not something that does/will require multiple surgeries/ treatments

279 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:53:44am

re: #271 ulmsey123

"I broke the dam!"

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

Good episode with fun satire. Global Warming is real, but its not as extreme or sudden as The Day After Tomorrow.

280 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:54:05am

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

Great line from him. He understands that this is a war and must be treated as one. Then again, he is in the Army Reserves so that is not surprising.

But hey, spending money on laywers to defend their rights could be a new stimulus plan!

281 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:54:29am

re: #268 harrylook

Brown said we should spend the money on weapons to defeat them.

I'm baffled about KSM...he's an admitted killer, an elite AQ big dog and enemy of the US...execute him or dump him into supermax and be done with it...he doesn't even deserve a tribunal let alone a civil trial in NYC...the whole premise is folly

282 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:54:39am

re: #276 iceweasel

cheers DF, and nice to see you! before I take off!-- but I don't really deserve much credit there. I hate the Dems as much as anyone might, and really Coakley was on my shitlist for good once they ran with that fake brown rape flyer.
And I don't like Brown either, or his positions, but I really hate lies by candidates and their campaigns. Deliberate smears and distortions, I mean, like Coakley's mailing.

I look forward to the day when that shit is no longer the stuff of our discourse. On either side, Dems and Repubs both.

Until then, candidates and campaigns who employ should always lose. Period. (imo)

Quite Concur on that last.

283 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:55:04am

re: #280 jamesfirecat

But hey, spending money on laywers to defend their rights could be a new stimulus plan!

[smiles]

284 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:55:22am

re: #275 jamesfirecat

Unless of course the MA voters are a bunch of assholes who cast a vote of "I've got mine you can f*** right off."

More like "we got ours ,,, we know what this is ,,,,, do NOT attempt this on a national level"

285 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:55:33am

re: #276 iceweasel

I look forward to the day when that shit is no longer the stuff of our discourse. On either side, Dems and Repubs both.

That would be great. I also look forward to the day I have x-ray vision.

286 elizajane  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:55:35am

re: #261 sattv4u2

That is an absolutely terrible analogy. You do not "purchase" a chronic illness; you do not decide to have it. An ill child is not a used car.

287 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:55:44am

re: #272 Ben Hur

It has nothing to do with that.

She ran a bad campaign.

We were told 2 days ago.

and if you think otherwise, you are suffering extreme ODS...so there

288 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:56:38am

re: #281 albusteve

I'm baffled about KSM...he's an admitted killer, an elite AQ big dog and enemy of the US...execute him or dump him into supermax and be done with it...he doesn't even deserve a tribunal let alone a civil trial in NYC...the whole premise is folly

I have nothing but distaste for that idea. Even the Nazis big wigs we captured alive were given a trial. Why should we allow these terrorists to destroy what makes America great by making us act as barbarically as they do?

289 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:56:46am

re: #172 Obdicut


I don't see any actual solutions being proposed by the GOP,

Then you're not looking hard enough. Granted, they've been swept under the rug, and not reported by MSM, but interstate insurance policy shopping (currently regulated against, by >koff< Congress) and Medical IRAs jump to mind as two solutions that would serve to improve service and lower costs.

290 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:56:48am

re: #286 elizajane

That is an absolutely terrible analogy. You do not "purchase" a chronic illness; you do not decide to have it. An ill child is not a used car.

The analogy was about what insurance is for, not car/child

291 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:56:59am

re: #276 iceweasel

btw.. howdy, non-commie-bastard ice ;)

292 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:00am

re: #103 iceweasel

Also, does that mean they were morons when they elected Obama?

293 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:08am

re: #284 sattv4u2

Unless of course the MA voters are a bunch of assholes who cast a vote of "I've got mine you can f*** right off."

More like "we got ours ,,, we know what this is ,,, do NOT attempt this on a national level"

So are you suggesting they don't like what they have?

294 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:30am

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

I've never really understood the 'congestive' aspect of that condition. What does it mean?

A heart that is having a difficult time (for whatever reason) pumping blood, also is having a hard time moving blood through the kidneys to remove waste. The extra liquid still in the body builds up and "Congests" the body.

If you're in CHF, you watch the salt intake, watch the liquid intake, and take diuretics. You also check your weight everyday. Everyone has a different threshold, but the rule for me is more than 3 pound weight gain overnight without a good explanation (Party where I indulged a bit to much, for example) take an extra diuretic.

And occasionally you have to go to the hospital and get a high powered IV diuretic that works *quite* well!

295 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:40am

I was really glad to see than the new Senator was getting advice from Mitt Romney. I've been a Romney guy for awhile now and I believe that it is the Romney style of Republicanism that has a chance in the general election, not the Sarah Palin/Ron Paul style.

296 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:42am

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Good episode with fun satire. Global Warming is real, but its not as extreme or sudden as The Day After Tomorrow.

It could be with a broad enough definition of sudden/extreme:

In the film The Day After Tomorrow, the world enters the icy grip of a new glacial period within the space of just a few weeks. Now new research shows that this scenario may not be so far from the truth after all.

...

Previous evidence from Greenland ice cores has indicated that this sudden change in climate occurred over the space of a decade or so. Now new data shows that the change was amazingly abrupt, taking place over the course of a few months, or a year or two at most.

YMMV

297 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:57:59am

re: #278 sattv4u2

Not anything catastrophic

A sinus condition (allergies, etc) , sure

Bit not something that does/will require multiple surgeries/ treatments

My diabetes has never been excluded from treatment, despite it's ongoing expense and the much greater likelihood of related medical problems that come along with it. And I've switched employers - and plans - many times since being diagnosed.

The same seems to be true for dependents. I know several people who hired in and had their spouses and children covered, despite them having had major health problems (heart disease, autism) prior.

298 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:58:36am

re: #293 jamesfirecat

So are you suggesting they don't like what they have?

I'm sure many do. I've heard most don't. I was born and raised just outside of Boston. Lived there for 45 years. Still have family and freinds there. The consensus from them and their family/ freinds is that the majority don;'t like it

299 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:58:40am

re: #255 sandbox

And I loved Scott Brown's line that we shouldn't be paying for lawyers for terrorists!

According to Jackson Browne, Lawyers should be in Love!

300 CommonCents  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:21am

re: #261 sattv4u2

the ONLY reason I'd have voted for her would have been to save health care, and the ONLY reason I'd have done that is because I have a child with a "pre-existing" chronic condition

I feel sorry for your childs condition, but no insurance (health, home or auto) covers pre-existing conditions. You can't buy a car with a smashed in front end, purchase ins then get the car fixed under that ins.

That stated, I do beleive we have to come up with a way to help our citizens with pre-existing conditions but apart from regular health ins. policies

I agree with you in part. However, I believe part of the issue is that because insurance is tied to employer and the average term at an employer is around 5.5 years, if you change jobs then you cannot re-insure because of a 'pre-existing condition'. Or if your coverage drops you because they learn of an expensive condition you cannot re-insure with that 'pre-exisiting condition'. There is some monkey business in there that needs fixing.

301 SixDegrees  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:22am

BBIAB.

302 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:25am

re: #280 jamesfirecat

But hey, spending money on laywers to defend their rights could be a new stimulus plan!

not hardly...it's predicted to cost around $200m a year to do these trials in NYC....that's your money you earned

303 EB71  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:34am

re: #289 Pete(Detroit)

The House Republicans did propose this legislation: [Link: rules-republicans.house.gov...]

I do not know if it would be a step forward in improving health care delivery, broadening coverage, preserving individual choice, and/or reducing health care costs. However, it is a concrete proposal addressing health care reform issues, and it is a lot longer and more meaningful than "NO." Those who say the Republicans are the party of "NO" on the health care reform issue would do well to take a look at what the Republicans put on the table. They should read it and propose improvements or compromises. Or they should systematically tear it apart, as the opponents of ObamaCare did to the legislative monstrosities passed in the House and Senate. To claim that the Republicans are merely the party of "NO" on health care reform is not quite accurate. It may be that there is a goal (health care reform) to which different approaches may be taken. It may be that the left and the right are using the same or similar words (health care reform) but defining them differently. Perhaps if there was an open legislative process, open debate, and a deliberate thoughtful process, a more palatable outcome fully satisfactory to few but also rabidly objectionable to few would have emerged.

304 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:47am

re: #275 jamesfirecat

I say that since MA already has state wide Healthcare you can hardly suggest that the voters were voting against that idea of government run healthcare unless Scott Brown was running on a platform of repealing what already exists.

Unless of course the MA voters are a bunch of assholes who cast a vote of "I've got mine you can f*** right off." Which I suppose is a possibility.

As for how it will affect the Healtcare bill in congress I hope Pelosia and Obama can heard the cats necessary to get the congressmen to agree to the senates plan, if we do that then we can land this thing on a wing on a prayr yet...

Exit polls are showing it was a central issue. He ran with it as a central issue.

Poll after poll shows that the Health Care REform bill being put forward now is not popular.

I'm not from Mass, but it seems the voters didn't want additional federal costs on top of their state costs (healthcare).

Reports and articles on the lack of transparency, secret deals, Union tax breaks, Fannie/Freddie bonuses, exemptions from Health Care and "bonus" tax (the new attack on Wall Street), etc etc, probably coincide with Browns rise in the polls.

If the bill is so good, why the need to make special deals so allies can pt out?

305 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 9:59:59am

re: #287 albusteve

and if you think otherwise, you are suffering extreme ODS...so there

Well how would you characterize her campaign on a scale of 0 - 10, 0 being the worst campaign evah! and 10 being OMG Perfect (and 5 being, boringly competent, no major wow, no major gaffes)?

306 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:00:08am

re: #259 SixDegrees

What does that work out to - a teaspoon or two?

A pack of Sweet N Low contains 1000 mg. Pour two out on the table.

307 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:00:09am

re: #297 SixDegrees

Just responded to the poster that stated his/her child couldn't be covered. Perhaps you should relay your info/ ins company to them

308 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:00:31am

re: #295 _RememberTonyC

I was really glad to see than the new Senator was getting advice from Mitt Romney. I've been a Romney guy for awhile now and I believe that it is the Romney style of Republicanism that has a chance in the general election, not the Sarah Palin/Ron Paul style.

Cheers to that. There are some Republicans I wouldn't get behind if you put a gun to my head. There are others that are fine examples of the principles of conservatism. Romney falls in the latter category.

But I'm still doubtful he will be the one to come out of the primary...

309 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:00:39am

re: #288 jamesfirecat

I believe the Nazis were tried by military after WWII were tried in military tribunals.

Further, not interrogating Uman, the underwear bomber, was stupid in the extreme. He was read his miranda rights.

310 jpkoch  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:00:46am

re: #272 Ben Hur


Heck, if all lawmakers lost their seats or didn't win because they ran rotten campaigns we would have 40-50% turnover. In such a politically homogeneous state as Mass. the real election is usually the democratic primaries. Not even Sen Kerry's really needs to worry (at least until now). Yes, Coakleyran a rotten campaign, but her loss was more of an indication of voter dissatisfaction than her poor campaigning skills. After all, she did win several statewide campaigns for AG- the voters knew her face and her policies. They overwhelmingly voted for her in past elections. There was something more going on.

311 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:01:06am

re: #298 sattv4u2

I'm sure many do. I've heard most don't. I was born and raised just outside of Boston. Lived there for 45 years. Still have family and freinds there. The consensus from them and their family/ freinds is that the majority don;'t like it

I think that's not the best measure to use in my opinion. What we really need is somebody who grew up somewhere else, then moved to MA so that they can measure what MA has against what they used to have and obejctively compare the two rather than just feeling that "The status quo is bad" without possibly realizing that someone else's status quo is even worse.

That said the BEST way to do this is to hit the books, or at least the web pages, which is exactly what I'm going to go do as soon as I'm done with class in four hours by which point this thread will have long since grown stale, but hey I'll have made myself more well edjucated for future ones...

312 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:01:10am

re: #288 jamesfirecat

I have nothing but distaste for that idea. Even the Nazis big wigs we captured alive were given a trial. Why should we allow these terrorists to destroy what makes America great by making us act as barbarically as they do?

he's guilty...why does he need a civil trial?...to make a point about American niceness?...why do we have to be 'nice'?....so you feel good about yourself?

313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:01:16am

re: #295 _RememberTonyC

Mitt's been spending a pile of time in the Caymans or tanning booths lately. Saw him last night. He was absolutely bronze.

314 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:01:55am

re: #311 jamesfirecat

Why would someone have to move to Mass instead of taking a Mass resident who was NOT under the states plan and now IS!?!?!

315 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:01:57am

re: #276 iceweasel

This is coming from left field, and is much like the OMG LGF moments when you think a male poster is female, etc.

Why was I under the impression that your were European?

316 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:02:02am

re: #294 SteveC

A heart that is having a difficult time (for whatever reason) pumping blood, also is having a hard time moving blood through the kidneys to remove waste. The extra liquid still in the body builds up and "Congests" the body.

If you're in CHF, you watch the salt intake, watch the liquid intake, and take diuretics. You also check your weight everyday. Everyone has a different threshold, but the rule for me is more than 3 pound weight gain overnight without a good explanation (Party where I indulged a bit to much, for example) take an extra diuretic.

And occasionally you have to go to the hospital and get a high powered IV diuretic that works *quite* well!

Thank you for the info.

317 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:02:38am

re: #302 albusteve

not hardly...it's predicted to cost around $200m a year to do these trials in NYC...that's your money you earned

The question is who is getting paid that 200M? I mean its not like its going to the terrorists themselves... how much is getting paid to American Security firms, how much to American lawyers, do you have a break down of how the spending works out?

318 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:02:48am

re: #298 sattv4u2

I'm sure many do. I've heard most don't. I was born and raised just outside of Boston. Lived there for 45 years. Still have family and freinds there. The consensus from them and their family/ freinds is that the majority don;'t like it

CapeCoddah claims people are fed up with their HC situation up there...she would know

319 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:02:53am

re: #313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mitt's been spending a pile of time in the Caymans or tanning booths lately. Saw him last night. He was absolutely bronze.

george hamilton can play him in the movie ...

320 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:03:35am

I blame: double digit unemployment; loss of jobs; union-political nepotism; unbridled spending; the economy; and a multitude of boondoggles.

321 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:03:47am

re: #318 albusteve

CapeCoddah claims people are fed up with their HC situation up there...she would know

As I stated, I've heard that from her and other Mass residents on here, as well as my family and freinds who live there

322 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:03:53am

re: #117 webevintage

That argument is always weak because you can go to an ER at anytime, and if you have "no money" you qualify for AHCCCS here in Arizona, and the benefits have been extended to 4 times the poverty rate, so basically it's almost impossible not to get healthcare in AZ.

323 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:04:01am

re: #309 sandbox

I believe the Nazis were tried by military after WWII were tried in military tribunals.

Further, not interrogating Uman, the underwear bomber, was stupid in the extreme. He was read his miranda rights.

I was responding to Steve's

"I'm baffled about KSM...he's an admitted killer, an elite AQ big dog and enemy of the US...execute him or dump him into supermax and be done with it...he doesn't even deserve a tribunal let alone a civil trial in NYC...the whole premise is folly"

I'd prefer a civillian trial personally but I'll settle for a tribunal just fine, but the above idea of just summary excution/imprisionment makes me shudder at the implications...

324 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:04:02am

re: #313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mitt's been spending a pile of time in the Caymans or tanning booths lately. Saw him last night. He was absolutely bronze.

He reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George was dating the woman who was always really tan, even in the middle of winter.

George: So, you've been in the city all winter?
Woman: Well, I went on vacation for a week.
George: Oh?
Woman: To Maine.

325 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:04:31am

re: #312 albusteve

he's guilty...why does he need a civil trial?...to make a point about American niceness?...why do we have to be 'nice'?...so you feel good about yourself?

I personally call it the rule of law. And yes, I'd feel better about America by following it and doing things by the book than cutting corners because we "Know" he's guilty.

326 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:04:43am

re: #320 Gus 802

I blame: double digit unemployment; loss of jobs; union-political nepotism; unbridled spending; the economy; and a multitude of boondoggles.

Et tu, Gus?

Not the Tea!

327 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:04:46am

re: #324 Soap_Man

He reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George was dating the woman who was always really tan, even in the middle of winter.

George: So, you've been in the city all winter?
Woman: Well, I went on vacation for a week.
George: Oh?
Woman: To Maine.

hey now ,,, I got a bad burn on Peaks Island Maine on summer!!

328 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:05:07am

Ooh, strongly worded memos are exchanged.

The UN may have to step in to prevent hurt feelings.

329 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:05:14am

re: #314 sattv4u2

Why would someone have to move to Mass instead of taking a Mass resident who was NOT under the states plan and now IS!?!?!

Okay fair enough as long as they've had both experiences that should work fine. Still I'd prefer something a little more concrete than hearsay of one family, that's why I'm gonna start hitting the web pages soon and collect hearsay from everybody!

330 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:05:30am

re: #326 Ben Hur

Et tu, Gus?

Not the Tea!

I'm drinking espresso roast! :)

331 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:05:51am

re: #312 albusteve

he's guilty...why does he need a civil trial?...to make a point about American niceness?...why do we have to be 'nice'?...so you feel good about yourself?

How do we know he's guilty until he's had a trial?

332 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:06:09am

re: #329 jamesfirecat

Okay fair enough as long as they've had both experiences that should work fine. Still I'd prefer something a little more concrete than hearsay of one family, that's why I'm gonna start hitting the web pages soon and collect hearsay from everybody!

Well ,, unless they are younger than 4-5 years old, they would have experienced both systems!

333 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:06:18am

re: #317 jamesfirecat

The question is who is getting paid that 200M? I mean its not like its going to the terrorists themselves... how much is getting paid to American Security firms, how much to American lawyers, do you have a break down of how the spending works out?

it's tax money, that's all that matters...it has nothing to do with good, services, profit or creating wealth....it's simply shifting tax money from here to there

334 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:06:32am

re: #317 jamesfirecat

The $200 million is the security costs as figured by the NYPD which would have to incur those costs to oversee the security for the terror trials. Only a small portion would be infrastructure related; the bulk would be manpower costs - increased overtime, deployment of Hercules and Atlas teams (counter-terrorism units that are the elite of the elite in the ESU (NYC's version of SWAT). It doesn't include economic hardship for businesses affected by street closures around the courthouses, or increased time spent to get through the area in congestion or delays.

And the KSM trial is expected to go for 4-5 years. That's a serious chunk of change for someone that both Holder and Obama have said will never be released regardless of what happens at trial, which says it all right there. The tribunal system, which is useful for other terrorists should have been used for KSM and the others, and it wouldn't have resulted in the additional costs to NY which can't afford it with a multibillion dollar deficit and would need the feds to pony up the money.

335 garhighway  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:06:39am

re: #258 webevintage

Once you have determined they are terrorists, the question of who pays for their lawyer is sort of besides the point, isn't it?

I don't understand why the "we are a nation of laws" thing is so hard to understand. You don't need laws to protect the popular. You need them to protect the unpopular.

We set up rules in advance so we won't use our legal system arbitrarily. We say that you are presumed innocent and have certain rights precisely so we don't have to figure that out a case at a time based on the popularity or unpopularity of a given case or defendant.

Likewise, we make laws (or enter into treaties) about what we do with prisoners of war precisely so that other nations will know that we will behave honorably under difficult circumstances and so other nations might do so in the same situation.

Does trying people in court cost money? Yes. It is way more expensive, in the short run, then is lynching people. (For example.) Or giving them some sort of process built on wax paper and chewing gum that is purpose-built to condemn people without a fair trial.

But we are America. We are better than that. We built this country on fair play and a respect for the rights of the less popular. The mere fact that fair play is sometimes expensive is not a good reason to pawn our heritage. And the fact that sometimes people will take advantage of our fairness is no reason to give up and become, say, Egypt.

I say it again: WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.

336 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:07:03am

re: #300 CommonCents

I agree with you in part. However, I believe part of the issue is that because insurance is tied to employer and the average term at an employer is around 5.5 years, if you change jobs then you cannot re-insure because of a 'pre-existing condition'. Or if your coverage drops you because they learn of an expensive condition you cannot re-insure with that 'pre-exisiting condition'. There is some monkey business in there that needs fixing.

Here is some good info and advice.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

337 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:07:16am

re: #323 jamesfirecat

Agreed. We're not looking for summary executions.

338 garhighway  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:07:18am

re: #268 harrylook

Last time I checked we did that. A lot.

339 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:07:44am

re: #334 lawhawk

The $200 million is the security costs as figured by the NYPD which would have to incur those costs to oversee the security for the terror trials. Only a small portion would be infrastructure related; the bulk would be manpower costs - increased overtime, deployment of Hercules and Atlas teams (counter-terrorism units that are the elite of the elite in the ESU (NYC's version of SWAT). It doesn't include economic hardship for businesses affected by street closures around the courthouses, or increased time spent to get through the area in congestion or delays.

And the KSM trial is expected to go for 4-5 years. That's a serious chunk of change for someone that both Holder and Obama have said will never be released regardless of what happens at trial, which says it all right there. The tribunal system, which is useful for other terrorists should have been used for KSM and the others, and it wouldn't have resulted in the additional costs to NY which can't afford it with a multibillion dollar deficit and would need the feds to pony up the money.

Okay most of this sounds pretty reasonable. But why is the KSM trial expected to take 4-5 years?

340 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:08:16am

re: #149 Obdicut

That's a copout because even if you have the genes of a champ, eating like shit, and smoking and other lifestyle choices can F you up real fast. Genetics has some affect on your body type and your predisposition to certain illness, but your general health is far more influenced by your own personal daily habits than genetics, except for those rarer cases with a genetic defect or illness, which is much more of an exception that proves the rule rather than being the rule.

341 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:08:26am

re: #331 jamesfirecat

How do we know he's guilty until he's had a trial?

good grief....how do you think?....have you followed this whole clusterfuck?

342 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:08:45am

re: #335 garhighway

Once you have determined they are terrorists, the question of who pays for their lawyer is sort of besides the point, isn't it?

I don't understand why the "we are a nation of laws" thing is so hard to understand. You don't need laws to protect the popular. You need them to protect the unpopular.

We set up rules in advance so we won't use our legal system arbitrarily. We say that you are presumed innocent and have certain rights precisely so we don't have to figure that out a case at a time based on the popularity or unpopularity of a given case or defendant.

Likewise, we make laws (or enter into treaties) about what we do with prisoners of war precisely so that other nations will know that we will behave honorably under difficult circumstances and so other nations might do so in the same situation.

Does trying people in court cost money? Yes. It is way more expensive, in the short run, then is lynching people. (For example.) Or giving them some sort of process built on wax paper and chewing gum that is purpose-built to condemn people without a fair trial.

But we are America. We are better than that. We built this country on fair play and a respect for the rights of the less popular. The mere fact that fair play is sometimes expensive is not a good reason to pawn our heritage. And the fact that sometimes people will take advantage of our fairness is no reason to give up and become, say, Egypt.

I say it again: WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.

America, FUCK YEAH! (Your response sums up what I love about this nation so well)

343 ak47pundit  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:09:53am

Coakley believed she had a cakewalk to victory and took the election for granted. Between her gaffes and hauter on her un-campaign, along with Brown's drive and the public's unfavorable view of the national Democrat party's policies and a stunning upset has taken place.

Perhaps the Democrats will get the message that the general public is generally moderate, fiscally conservative, and doesn't want to go too far right or left. Otherwise look for heavy Republican gain in 2010 as long as the Republicans shape up (especailly on their spendthrift ways in office)accordingly.

344 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:09:56am

Here we go again..

345 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:10:13am

re: #341 albusteve

good grief...how do you think?...have you followed this whole clusterfuck?

We have trials when people plead "guilty" all the time. We're a nation of laws and I refuse to believe that KSM shouldn't at least be given a military trial in a secure location like the Nazis.

346 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:10:33am

re: #322 robdouth

That argument is always weak because you can go to an ER at anytime, and if you have "no money" you qualify for AHCCCS here in Arizona, and the benefits have been extended to 4 times the poverty rate, so basically it's almost impossible not to get healthcare in AZ.

The "you can always go to the ER" argument is weaker, because 1) people who have to go to the ER for untreated chronic conditions don't get the ongoing care they need, they just get patched up and pushed out the door with maybe a referral they can't keep because they have no personal physician and maybe a scrip they can't pay for and 2) ER treatment is about as cost-effective as full-face debridement for a zit.

347 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:10:52am

re: #334 lawhawk

Lower Manhattan's not hard to move around in now.
/

348 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:11:27am

re: #334 lawhawk

I recommend a change of venue.

349 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:11:52am

re: #346 Cato the Elder

The "you can always go to the ER" argument is weaker, because 1) people who have to go to the ER for untreated chronic conditions don't get the ongoing care they need, they just get patched up and pushed out the door with maybe a referral they can't keep because they have no personal physician and maybe a scrip they can't pay for and 2) ER treatment is about as cost-effective as full-face debridement for a zit.

Also good luck getting the kind of therapy you might need to work again after say a car accident at an ER clinic...

350 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:20am

re: #345 jamesfirecat

Nazis! The thread is complete now! //

351 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:27am

On a related note,

Lurked a little last night.

Was some serious vulgarity up there.

It took a while to get zapped.

Anyone see that?

352 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:29am

re: #335 garhighway

The point is not that we are paying for lawyers for terrorists, which we are. The line is meant to emphasize the bad decision to move the trials from military to civilian courts. This decision is in-defensible for for Obama, Holder, and now Coakley. IMO it's OK for the ACLU to promote the civilian courts idea, but not for our President, whose primary concern has to be to defend the American people. I am surprised that I even have to point this out.

353 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:38am

re: #348 Gus 802

I recommend a change of venue.

I agree

How about ,, oh ,,, say ,, GITMO!!

/(kinda)

354 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:43am

re: #335 garhighway

I'm not better than that. But, I don't want these guys at Gitmo either.

I kinda want them dead.

355 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:12:44am

re: #156 webevintage

How about instead of your connotation that anyone who doesn't want higher taxes and to be responsible for everyone else as "I've got mine, screw you", you make it more accurately "I'm taking care of mine, get your shit together instead of taking mine." That's at least a little more accurate. Each generation is weaker and demands more "rights" than the previous generation. Sometimes that is good (civil rights), but sometimes it just means less and less individual responsibility.

356 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:13:23am

re: #335 garhighway

DING!

357 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:13:28am

re: #351 Ben Hur

On a related note,

Lurked a little last night.

Was some serious vulgarity up there.

It took a while to get zapped.

Anyone see that?

Are you talking about my "fuck Ayn Rand" comment?

358 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:13:38am

re: #352 sandbox

The point is not that we are paying for lawyers for terrorists, which we are. The line is meant to emphasize the bad decision to move the trials from military to civilian courts. This decision is in-defensible for for Obama, Holder, and now Coakley. IMO it's OK for the ACLU to promote the civilian courts idea, but not for our President, whose primary concern has to be to defend the American people. I am surprised that I even have to point this out.

Question, do you get a court appointed atorney at a military trial as well?

359 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:14:17am

re: #351 Ben Hur

On a related note,

Lurked a little last night.

Was some serious vulgarity up there.

It took a while to get zapped.

Anyone see that?

I was there...some pretty good drama

360 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:14:54am

re: #351 Ben Hur

The "Stupid Flouncer"?

361 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:14:56am

re: #351 Ben Hur

On a related note,

Lurked a little last night.

Was some serious vulgarity up there.

It took a while to get zapped.

Anyone see that?

I saw you win that chariot race, Ben. I thought a little cussin' (especially by someone who obviously wasn't a member of the LGF fan club) wouldn't phase you.

362 sandbox  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:15:03am

re: #358 jamesfirecat

yes. which is ok with me.

363 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:15:20am

re: #353 sattv4u2

I agree

How about ,, oh ,,, say ,, GITMO!!

/(kinda)

You know I was thinking about that last night. Let's say, OK, have a civilian trial. Fly everyone down there and house them for the next 4 to 5 years and let them have at it. Would probably be cheaper in the long run. Kind-of-sort-of.

364 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:15:55am

Fast moving thread today.

365 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:15:55am

re: #360 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The "Stupid Flouncer"?

AKA Sloop?

366 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:15:56am

re: #322 robdouth

That argument is always weak because you can go to an ER at anytime, and if you have "no money" you qualify for AHCCCS here in Arizona, and the benefits have been extended to 4 times the poverty rate, so basically it's almost impossible not to get healthcare in AZ.

Sure you can go to the ER, but why would we want people to do that?
That costs all of us money.
It is costing this country so much money.

That's nice for folks in AZ....BUT it is not just "poor people".
Lots of people have health insurance and still do not get their health care needs seen to because they can not afford the deductible.
They just don't have the money for an office visit or the tests their Doctor says they need to see if that PSA is right and they might have cancer or to pay for the only prescription that works to keep their blood pressure down.

367 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:16:28am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

I wonder if that's because they were locked out of the negotiations very early. You don't get asked for your imput, or you get the token ask, and then get rejected on anything you propose, you may not be so apt to want to do anything but kill the bill. Especially because you don't have the political power to bring forward any changes. Dems won't even let any proposals onto the floor, so what the F are Reps supposed to do to improve the bill?

368 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:16:28am

re: #365 Gus 802

AKA Sloop?

Sloop Sucks

369 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:16:45am

re: #361 SteveC

I saw you win that chariot race, Ben. I thought a little cussin' (especially by someone who obviously wasn't a member of the LGF fan club) wouldn't phase you.

You have a phaser?

Otherwise the word is "faze".

370 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:16:52am

re: #363 Gus 802

You know I was thinking about that last night. Let's say, OK, have a civilian trial. Fly everyone down there and house them for the next 4 to 5 years and let them have at it. Would probably be cheaper in the long run. Kind-of-sort-of.

4-5 lawyers and staff housed at Gitmo for 4-5 years would be a LOT less expensive (considering the extra costs outlined by LawHawk above to the area around the court in NYC)

371 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:17:01am

re: #365 Gus 802

AKA Sloop?

Yep. "The stupidest flouncer I ever seen!"
-Channeling Large Marge

372 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:17:09am

Video: Rep. Delahunt: Brown’s win ‘a reality check’

(And notice the incredible diversity at MSNBC. Like a Tea Party.)

373 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:17:14am

re: #365 Gus 802

AKA Sloop?

Sloopy sure didn't hang on, did he?

374 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:17:19am

re: #369 Cato the Elder

You have a phaser?

Otherwise the word is "faze".

set fazers on stun!

375 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:18:09am

By the way, I read a book "The Stupidest Angel" by Christopher Moore last week. Very well done.

Funny as hell.

376 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:18:15am

re: #373 SteveC

Sloopy sure didn't hang on, did he?

Get out of my head!

Hang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on, yeah, yeah...

//

377 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:18:23am

re: #362 sandbox

yes. which is ok with me.

Okay well in that case Brown's line doesn't really make sense as we'd be spending money on lawyers to defend them either way.

Unless of course these lawyers being the military types are also weapons to defeat terrorists themselves...

Ninja lawyers armed with razor sharp throwing subpoenas!

378 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:18:50am

re: #369 Cato the Elder

You have a phaser?

Otherwise the word is "faze".

Grammar Nazi! :)

//

379 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:19:08am

re: #376 Gus 802

Get out of my head!

Hang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on, yeah, yeah...

//

Stop that, or I'll sing the Barney song. Don't make me do it...

380 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:19:20am

re: #357 Cato the Elder

Are you talking about my "fuck Ayn Rand" comment?

No. That would've been tame.

Some serious flouncing.

Actually, multiple flounces because they went unnoticed by The Man, for a while, I guess.

The guy had flounce-dysfunction, or something.

381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:19:21am

re: #376 Gus 802

Get out of my head!

Hang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on, yeah, yeah...

//

O!-H!-I!-O!

Sorry. I have friends who are OSU fans.

382 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:19:39am

re: #343 ak47pundit

Coakley believed she had a cakewalk to victory and took the election for granted. Between her gaffes and hauter on her un-campaign, along with Brown's drive and the public's unfavorable view of the national Democrat party's policies and a stunning upset has taken place.

Perhaps the Democrats will get the message that the general public is generally moderate, fiscally conservative, and doesn't want to go too far right or left. Otherwise look for heavy Republican gain in 2010 as long as the Republicans shape up (especailly on their spendthrift ways in office)accordingly.

I read your blog. Decent stuff, but I'd strongly advise you not to use WorldNetDaily as a source. They're a bunch of crazies.

383 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:20:28am

Pew! Pew!

384 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:05am

O/T
Some of you are way code clever-
How do you do the superscript TM in a post? Just for fun I want to use it on my Cut The Fringe advice to the Republicans.

385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:10am

re: #383 Ben Hur

Pew! Pew!

Sorry. That was me.

386 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:27am

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

I read your blog. Decent stuff, but I'd strongly advise you not to use WorldNetDaily as a source. They're a bunch of crazies.

That's fine advice.

387 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:28am

re: #376 Gus 802

Get out of my head!

Hang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on, yeah, yeah...

//

re: #379 cliffster

Stop that, or I'll sing the Barney song. Don't make me do it...

GUS..... just stop. PLEASE!

388 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:36am

re: #366 webevintage

And not only that: this business about generous benefits extended to "four times the poverty limit" is a crock. The poverty level is not enough to keep you in dog food, so big deal.

389 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:38am

re: #367 robdouth

I suspect that many of the Republican politicians and GOP leadership would like to participate but any cooperation would not go over well with the base. Look at the the few who dared participate in TARP and stimulus. The base is very eager to oust anyone caught cooperating with the Dems. I really have a hard time imagining any bipartisan cooperation in this environment.

390 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:21:52am

re: #377 jamesfirecat

The costs in NYC will go far above what a handful of lawyers charge. Those extra costs wouldn't be incurred on a military base or a Gitmo

391 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:05am

re: #387 SteveC

GUS... just stop. PLEASE!

Yes sir!

/Puts hands in pockets.

/

392 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:06am

When I hear Republicans from the northeast mention fighting terrorism as part of their message, it makes me feel very good about them. Brown did it, Mitt did it, and Giuliani did it. And even thought Mitt and Rudy did not go all the way, it is still an effective issue for me. When I hear Boston and NY people from the hard left "pooh pooh" the fight against islamonazis, I shake my head. NY was a target and will be again. Boston also played a role and lost people on the planes on 9/11. So when the TARGETS of extremists don't stand up for themselves, why would I expect them to stand up for me? And when guys who "get it" like Brown and moderate Dems like Lieberman do well, it's good for all of us.

393 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:20am

re: #383 Ben Hur

Pew! Pew!

Pepi La, is that you !?!?

394 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:24am

re: #376 Gus 802

Get out of my head!

Hang on Sloopy, Sloopy hang on, yeah, yeah...

//

Repost of DF quote following troll's booting:

"You're gone Sloopy! Sloopy, you're gone!"

395 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:26am

re: #384 Rightwingconspirator

O/T
Some of you are way code clever-
How do you do the superscript TM in a post? Just for fun I want to use it on my Cut The Fringe advice to the Republicans.

Put ™ right after the phrase.

396 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:22:47am
397 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:23:13am

re: #395 Cato the Elder

Put ™ right after the phrase.

Fraze.

398 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:23:48am

re: #346 Cato the Elder

If you understood anything about AHCCCS, they make it to where in AZ, the poor get better drug coverage, than people who pay for their own plans. Acne medication, and all the brand names are available, and if you can't afford the 5 dollar copay, then you just say so, and you won't be denied. Since AHCCCS applies to 4 times the poverty rate, and there are no restrictions for signing up, no my argument is no weak, because with that state run insurance, you get the ongoing care, and the scripts (not scrip) are paid for by me (and my fellow AZ workers.)

My mother works as a pharm tech at a Basha's location in AZ, and she'll see people with all the name brand groceries, show up at her window, claim they can't pay the 5 dollar copay and still be given their script, which they nestle right between the Name Brand Cheerios, and the 24 pack of beer. So spare me the sob stories, because AZ is going broke with people gaming the AHCCCS system. It's why doctors are now refusing to take more AHCCCS patients because they refuse to even pay the 10$ copay to be seen. Don't tell me someone can't afford 10$.

399 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:23:57am

i wonder if the left wing will splinter now, and rational refugees from both sides can meet in the middle and do something sane for the country.

400 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:24:09am

re: #366 webevintage%3

401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:24:36am

re: #399 spacejesus

and Amen.

402 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:24:54am

re: #338 garhighway

Last time I checked we did that. A lot.

I was just quoting the man....

403 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:25:16am

re: #396 Ben Hur

The Fort Hood Report: Why Not Mention Islam?

From Time magazine no less and they don't mention Major Hasan.

404 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:25:42am

re: #399 spacejesus

i wonder if the left wing will splinter now, and rational refugees from both sides can meet in the middle and do something sane for the country.

Interesting... I never thought of the left splintering.

405 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:26:01am

I just get the moonbat/wingnut sense that democrats are / were afraid of their own agenda. I wonder how many actually sit back and look in the mirror and say, 'We want all these things accomplished'.

We will find out if they go 'nuclear option'. If they want it...there is still nothing to stop them from getting it.

406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:26:57am

re: #404 brookly red

Interesting... I never thought of the left splintering.

Oh, I think it is happening. My next door neighbor worked very very hard for Obama. He's a Justice Department Attorney. Said he would probably never even vote again.

There's some splintering going on.

407 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:04am

re: #233 elizajane

In fact, the ONLY reason I'd have voted for her would have been to save health care, and the ONLY reason I'd have done that is because I have a child with a "pre-existing" chronic condition who will never be able to get health insurance in the current system.

Have you gone thru these steps?

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

I have personally (years back) gotten coverage for a significant number of individuals with pre-existing conditions.

Sometimes it takes some digging and paperwork ... but do-able.

Find a compassionate independent agent - they can help.

Does your state have a 'High Risk Pool"?

[Link: www.naschip.org...]

408 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:21am

re: #395 Cato the Elder

Put ™ right after the phrase.

Gee, that worked well, didn't it, Cato?

Put "& trade ;" right after the phrase, with no quotes or spaces.

409 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #288 jamesfirecat

The Nazis and Imperial Japanese war criminals were on trial under a military tribunal system not a civilian system. Last I check our military personnel were not wearing civil clothing, using human shields, and attacking civilians. So not granting full rights to the enemy is not all that bad and it's the smart choice in a war with an enemy that have a suicidal outlook on life.

410 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:50am

re: #331 jamesfirecat

How do we know he's guilty until he's had a trial?

ROFLMAO

411 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:51am

re: #390 sattv4u2

The costs in NYC will go far above what a handful of lawyers charge. Those extra costs wouldn't be incurred on a military base or a Gitmo

Gee. And we're so poor we can barely bail out banks anymore.

412 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:55am

re: #393 sattv4u2

Pepi La, is that you !?!?

That was me shooting off my phazer.

413 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:27:55am

re: #405 Oh no...Sand People!

I just get the moonbat/wingnut sense that democrats are / were afraid of their own agenda. I wonder how many actually sit back and look in the mirror and say, 'We want all these things accomplished'.

We will find out if they go 'nuclear option'. If they want it...there is still nothing to stop them from getting it.

Mutual
Assured
Destruction...

414 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:28:02am

re: #348 Gus 802

I recommend a change of venue.

I've argued before on several occasions that since we're going the trial route, there is no better place than NYC and the SDNY for trial because of the NYPD and the experienced prosecutors who have repeatedly dealt with terror trials. No other venue has as much institutional experience handling these cases. Only other venues where KSM could be tried would be the PA district where Shanksville is located (and that would be a logistics nightmare) or VA/DC, which would again be a logistics nightmare.

415 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:28:28am

re: #331 jamesfirecat

How do we know he's guilty until he's had a trial?

You jest, no?

416 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:28:33am

re: #389 Killgore Trout

With all due respect, the first TARP wasn't so much bipartisan as it was Republican led, and just because they received backlash from the "base" doesn't mean the base was wrong and they were right. By your definition, any Republican that doesn't participate is beholden to the base, whether or not he things HCR is a good idea. If you wanted to see some form of Tort reform or some bill that at least had some scaps that Republicans could point to as helping cut costs, and not just a huge albatross where "savings will come later", I think you'd get more Republicans on board. As it's currently constructed, I don't think the HCR would be successful if passed, so I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on board that mess if it screws up healthcare in this country.

417 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:29:14am

re: #409 Idle Drifter

The Nazis and Imperial Japanese war criminals were on trial under a military tribunal system not a civilian system. Last I check our military personnel were not wearing civil clothing, using human shields, and attacking civilians. So not granting full rights to the enemy is not all that bad and it's the smart choice in a war with an enemy that have a suicidal outlook on life.

once I hear "we're better than that...fuck yeah!"....I just give up

418 garhighway  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:29:30am

re: #352 sandbox

One way you "defend the American people" is to demonstrate that "the American people" live up to their own values. That they don't only abide by them when doing so is handy or painless or cheap.

I don't understand why people don't trust the people of NYC (as jurors) to do the right thing. Are they somehow lacking in a sense of justice? Do we think they will be too timid to do justice? Or too stupid? I don't get that. Of all Americans, New Yorkers get what is at stake. They live with it every day. I go by the WTC site 5 days a week. I would be happy to serve on that jury. It would be a hardship I would manage.

I trust our criminal justice system. I think it is the best in the world. If you conspire to kill Americans, and we catch you, we should try you in a court of law. We did it with the first batch of NYC bombers and it worked out just fine. To me, "defending the American people" includes enhancing our nation's stature throughout the world by showing that we mean all the stuff we say about being a nation of laws, not of men.

419 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:29:49am

re: #414 lawhawk

Understood. I guess we're just stuck between a rock and a hard place.

420 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:30:38am

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I think it is happening. My next door neighbor worked very very hard for Obama. He's a Justice Department Attorney. Said he would probably never even vote again.

There's some splintering going on.

If every person in NYC that swore to leave the country if Bush was re-elected actually did leave I would have a seat on the subway... words, just words ;)

421 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:30:44am

re: #418 garhighway

One way you "defend the American people" is to demonstrate that "the American people" live up to their own values. That they don't only abide by them when doing so is handy or painless or cheap.

I don't understand why people don't trust the people of NYC (as jurors) to do the right thing. Are they somehow lacking in a sense of justice? Do we think they will be too timid to do justice? Or too stupid? I don't get that. Of all Americans, New Yorkers get what is at stake. They live with it every day. I go by the WTC site 5 days a week. I would be happy to serve on that jury. It would be a hardship I would manage.

I trust our criminal justice system. I think it is the best in the world. If you conspire to kill Americans, and we catch you, we should try you in a court of law. We did it with the first batch of NYC bombers and it worked out just fine. To me, "defending the American people" includes enhancing our nation's stature throughout the world by showing that we mean all the stuff we say about being a nation of laws, not of men.

If we weren't at war, I might agree with you.

422 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:31:15am

re: #398 robdouth

Gosh, imagine that. Poor people with real Cheerios. Have they no shame?

And "scrip" is perfectly correct. It's a variant of "script", and doctors use it all the time.

423 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:31:25am

Democrats ponder health-care reform plans in wake of Massachusetts Senate race

Election was meaningless.
Bad Campaign.
Not about health care.

But as she left the Capitol late Tuesday night, Pelosi told reporters that the House is unlikely to take up the Senate bill in its current form.

"I think everyone [involved in the health-care negotiations] agrees that there are certain things in the Senate bill that must be changed," she said. "We do have our differences, and our members want to resolve those differences."

Nancy doesn't read LGF?

424 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:31:59am

A moment of bragging, if I may. Just received this text from the daughter (freshman in college)...

"OMG! My teacher just used (the word) verisimilitude and no one knew what it meant except for me. You taught me that word!"

I actually remember that conversation when I taught her the word. I think she was 13...

425 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:32:09am

re: #419 Gus 802

Indeed.

426 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:32:12am

re: #414 lawhawk

I've argued before on several occasions that since we're going the trial route, there is no better place than NYC and the SDNY for trial because of the NYPD and the experienced prosecutors who have repeatedly dealt with terror trials. No other venue has as much institutional experience handling these cases. Only other venues where KSM could be tried would be the PA district where Shanksville is located (and that would be a logistics nightmare) or VA/DC, which would again be a logistics nightmare.

We may not go the trial route ...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

427 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:32:30am

re: #418 garhighway

Taking the bastards out behind the shed and shooting them is another. (AKA, military tribunal)

428 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:01am

re: #425 lawhawk

Indeed.


[Video]

lawhawk....the complete guy...heh

429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:08am

re: #427 filetandrelease

huh?

430 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:19am

re: #374 albusteve

set fazers on stun!

I remain unphased!

431 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:30am

re: #427 filetandrelease

Taking the bastards out behind the shed and shooting them is another. (AKA, military tribunal)

Glad to see you hold our military in such high regard!

432 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:36am

re: #418 garhighway

Will you speak so highly of the system when it gets coverage like the OJ trial? When they try to make the entire trial an indictment of the Bush era? How do you find an impartial jury? The whole case is a joke, because he's guilty in everyone's mind already. There are only two types of jurors. Ones that when asked if they can be impartial, say no, they can't, and those who lie.

433 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:33:47am

re: #26 filetandrelease

Taking the bastards out behind the shed and shooting them is another. (AKA, military tribunal)

Let them swim from Gitmo. Just fill their pockets with pinfish first.

434 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:34:01am

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

huh?

see 431

435 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:34:05am

re: #426 Bobibutu

If Congress doesn't front the money, it's not going to happen. That's what they did to closing Gitmo; Congress didn't pony up the money to open the Illinois prison facility to move the Gitmo detainees there, which meant that it would be 2011 at the earliest before Gitmo detainees could be moved and the facility closed.

The money speaks volumes.

436 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:34:35am

re: #430 Cato the Elder

I remain unphased!

but your fraziology is excellent

437 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:34:47am

re: #424 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A moment of bragging, if I may. Just received this text from the daughter (freshman in college)...

"OMG! My teacher just used (the word) verisimilitude and no one knew what it meant except for me. You taught me that word!"

I actually remember that conversation when I taught her the word. I think she was 13...

Favorite Word Ever! Upding for teaching her that word at such an early age :)

438 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:34:54am

re: #421 Oh no...Sand People!

If we weren't at war, I might agree with you.

Concur. A civilian trial is a mistake, given the opportunities it affords the terrorists to leak information. SDNY has a better chance than anyone of preventing that, but the risk should still not be run.

439 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:35:21am

re: #422 Cato the Elder

You're missing the point. You can't pay your ridiculously low copay, to at least have some ownership in the system, but you can fill up your grocery cart with all the name brand crap and pay a premium for name brand? If you can't see anything wrong with that, then we don't have common ground from which to hold a debate.

440 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:35:59am

re: #435 lawhawk

If Congress doesn't front the money, it's not going to happen. That's what they did to closing Gitmo; Congress didn't pony up the money to open the Illinois prison facility to move the Gitmo detainees there, which meant that it would be 2011 at the earliest before Gitmo detainees could be moved and the facility closed.

The money speaks volumes.

Follow the money...

441 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:36:08am

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

huh?


A military tribunal tries a terrorist, finds him guilty, then puts him in front of a firring squad. They deserve nothing more.

No newspapers, no publicity, just a blip in the news. So and so was found guilty and shot yesterday.

442 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:36:24am

The Debt Commission

The future of the Dems’ big health-care bill looks murky, but there’s another big Washington plan that could have profound effects on health care: The idea of creating a bipartisan commission to cut the budget deficit is gaining ground.

443 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:36:33am

re: #439 robdouth

You're missing the point. You can't pay your ridiculously low copay, to at least have some ownership in the system, but you can fill up your grocery cart with all the name brand crap and pay a premium for name brand? If you can't see anything wrong with that, then we don't have common ground from which to hold a debate.

poor people need beer...I know this for a fact

444 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:36:51am

re: #393 sattv4u2

Pepi La, is that you !?!?

It could be fram 4 of this Avatar summary:

[Link: www.celebjihad.com...]

445 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:37:21am

Bayh Warns "Catastrophe" If Dems Ignore Massachusetts Senate Race Lessons

Even before the votes are counted, Senator Evan Bayh is warning fellow Democrats that ignoring the lessons of the Massachusetts Senate race will “lead to even further catastrophe” for their party.

“There’s going to be a tendency on the part of our people to be in denial about all this,” Bayh told ABC News, but “if you lose Massachusetts and that’s not a wake-up call, there’s no hope of waking up.”

What is the lesson of Massachusetts – where Democrats face the prospects of losing a Senate seat they’ve held since 1952? For Senator Bayh the lesson is that the party pushed an agenda that is too far to the left, alienating moderate and independent voters.

Serious ODS from Dem Senator Bayh.

How can all these people be so wrong? There are no lessons. It was a bad campaign.

He would've known days ago......

446 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:37:28am

re: #439 robdouth

You're missing the point. You can't pay your ridiculously low copay, to at least have some ownership in the system, but you can fill up your grocery cart with all the name brand crap and pay a premium for name brand? If you can't see anything wrong with that, then we don't have common ground from which to hold a debate.

I never thought we did, Mr "You Can Always Go to the ER". Carry on.

447 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:37:37am

Well I've decided to move to the dark side and agree with Ezra Klien.
Just pass the damn bill as is. Show some steel and a bit of commitment to something other then re-election.
Screw worrying about being re-elected, just get it done.
Time for the Dems to man-up and grow some.

"For now, it's worth observing that a Democratic Party that would abandon their central initiative this quickly isn't a Democratic Party that deserves to hold power. If they don't believe in the importance of their policies, why should anyone who's skeptical change their mind? If they're not interested in actually passing their agenda, why should voters who agree with Democrats on the issues work to elect them? A commitment provisional on Ted Kennedy not dying and Martha Coakley not running a terrible campaign is not much of a commitment at all."

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]
and
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

It nice here on the dark side....

448 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:37:37am

re: #440 Dark_Falcon

Follow the money...

/but I don't want to go to Saudi Arabia....

449 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:37:54am

re: #432 robdouth

Will you speak so highly of the system when it gets coverage like the OJ trial? When they try to make the entire trial an indictment of the Bush era? How do you find an impartial jury? The whole case is a joke, because he's guilty in everyone's mind already. There are only two types of jurors. Ones that when asked if they can be impartial, say no, they can't, and those who lie.

And in his own mind as well, I might add...

450 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:38:13am

Far left has taken over Democratic Party, Sen. Bayh says

You mean, you mean, it was all projection?!?

451 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:38:51am

re: #445 Ben Hur

Bayh Warns "Catastrophe" If Dems Ignore Massachusetts Senate Race Lessons

Wait a minute...he thinks it was about race?

452 SteveC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:38:58am

California to limit wait times

The regulations by the California Department of Managed Health Care, in the works for much of the last decade, will require that patients be treated by HMO doctors within 10 business days of requesting an appointment, and by specialists within 15.

Good luck with that!

453 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:39:06am

re: #435 lawhawk

If Congress doesn't front the money, it's not going to happen. That's what they did to closing Gitmo; Congress didn't pony up the money to open the Illinois prison facility to move the Gitmo detainees there, which meant that it would be 2011 at the earliest before Gitmo detainees could be moved and the facility closed.

The money speaks volumes.

Right. I think the price tag may shift it back to a Tribunal where I think it/they should be.

But of course politics trumps sanity every time.

454 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:39:18am

Regarding the Curt Schilling is a "Yankee fan" mistake, pols need to know that Mass people take the "Sawx" seriously. I'm sure Coakley would not know what I referred to when I said the "Sawx." So one of the lessons here is that the Red Sox mystique trumps the Kennedy mystique.

455 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:39:42am

re: #451 Cato the Elder

Wait a minute...he thinks it was about race?

Is Brown running for Pres, already!?!?!?!

456 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:39:54am

re: #436 albusteve

but your fraziology is excellent

I was a big fan of "Frasier".

457 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:09am

re: #448 brookly red

/but I don't want to go to Saudi Arabia...

LOL!

458 andres  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:11am

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

No, he just doesn't like the man or his policies much.

With the cheer idiocy he's been spouting the last few days, I think it's ODS.

re: #248 Ben Hur

Apparently, he's Blaspheming.

No, but his recent posts do tell another tale.

re: #252 albusteve

no, just oppose the HC bill

Really? You don't say.

459 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:17am

re: #450 Ben Hur

Far left has taken over Democratic Party, Sen. Bayh says

You mean, you mean, it was all projection?!?

Right about now Evan Bayh is squinting towards the horizon. He sees a bus coming straight at him.

//

460 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:23am

re: #447 webevintage

Pass the bill as is? Which bill?

There are two versions and there are serious differences between the two and neither the House nor Senate versions are palatable to the other chamber because of the deals done to make those versions happen.

That's why they're sitting in a conference committee trying to figure out how to untangle it all and come up with a plan.

A plan that may turn out to be nothing like the versions previously agreed to by the chambers separately.

461 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:35am

re: #455 Ben Hur

Is Brown running for Pres, already!?!?!?!

I hope so....unless he goes hiking in Peru or whatever

462 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:41am

re: #451 Cato the Elder

Wait a minute...he thinks it was about race?

/well Coakley does look kinda, well you know... French.

463 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:41am

re: #441 filetandrelease

A military tribunal tries a terrorist, finds him guilty, then puts him in front of a firring squad. They deserve nothing more.

No newspapers, no publicity, just a blip in the news. So and so was found guilty and shot yesterday.

In China.

464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:42am

re: #441 filetandrelease

Well. You said the "bastards". I was askeert.

465 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:49am

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I think it is happening. My next door neighbor worked very very hard for Obama. He's a Justice Department Attorney. Said he would probably never even vote again.

There's some splintering going on.

I think a large number of independents/moderates might have been willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt compared to McCain (and/or Hillary Clinton in the primaries) thinking that his rhetoric indicated some chance that the pattern currently screwing the country (and possibly the world) into the ground could be broken, or maybe just re-directed a bit.

A year later the Obama Administration has got little to show. Congress has shown no ability to lead, or legislate effectively, and in fact seems more interested in playing partisan patty-cake for points.

That a large number of people are disillusioned with *both* parties does not surprise me at all. And I don't think they are folk that admire and are attracted by the more extreme elements outside of the two parties either.

466 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:40:53am

re: #404 brookly red

Interesting... I never thought of the left splintering.

I think that's because the Left is already pretty splintered. How else can you explain a someone like Ben Nelson and Al Franken being in the same party?

467 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:41:23am

re: #451 Cato the Elder

Wait a minute...he thinks it was about race?

Huh??!?!

Where did you get that from what Bayh said ??

Whenever you have just the furthest left elements of the Dem party attempting to impose their will on the rest of the country -- that’s not going to work too well

468 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:41:32am

re: #358 jamesfirecat

Yes, you do a get an attorney, present evidence in your defense, challenge evidence, and question witnesses. My concern is security and what could be more secure than a off country, military instillation.

469 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:41:33am

re: #452 SteveC

California to limit wait times

Good luck with that!

Pass a law. Make it so. ///

470 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:41:44am

re: #456 Cato the Elder

I was a big fan of "Frasier".

heh...I would have guessed

471 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:42:05am

re: #455 Ben Hur

Is Brown running for Pres, already!?!?!?!

well if they start digging for dirt then we will know for sure...

472 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:42:11am

re: #454 _RememberTonyC

Regarding the Curt Schilling is a "Yankee fan" mistake, pols need to know that Mass people take the "Sawx" seriously. I'm sure Coakley would not know what I referred to when I said the "Sawx." So one of the lessons here is that the Red Sox mystique trumps the Kennedy mystique.

Especially when Curt (Worth every Shilling) and his bloody (red if you will) sock helped take us to our first World Series win in 86 years!

And by "us" I mean I live in Maryland with a mother who is a die hard red socks fan.

473 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:42:21am

re: #452 SteveC

California to limit wait times

Good luck with that!

The UK tries to do that with its NHS at regular intervals and nothing much changes. This latest Cali effort is destined to end up with Albion's attempts; heading off into the sunset in the failboat.

474 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:42:25am

re: #467 sattv4u2

Huh??!?!

Where did you get that from what Bayh said ??

Whenever you have just the furthest left elements of the Dem party attempting to impose their will on the rest of the country -- that’s not going to work too well

Read the headline I posted again.

475 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:42:57am

re: #443 albusteve

i won't fault them there beer, heaven forbid. However, when I hear stories of people showing up for their scripts all blinged out and cart full of none of the cheap types of groceries, I have a hard time buying their hard case story about not being able to pay even a couple bucks for their highly subsidized medicine. And yes, the problem is that there is no shame. I would be more than happy to have completely socialized medicine for the poor if I believed that everyone would use the system like I would (be ashamed to be on the dole, and work like hell to get off of it.) If people showed any contrition and didn't act like everything under the sun was their god-given right, I think a lot of people would be more generous.

It's like tipping in one sense. I'm going to tip the waitress with the better attitude and work ethic, regardless of their need, because if it's really a need, they'd at least have a good attitude and not be ungrateful.

One of the reasons I donate to my college and am more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes is because I'm grateful to ASU for offering me financial assistance at such a low interest rate, and because of the opportunities my being in this country and my local and national gov't have allowed me to have, so that my hard work could be rewarded. It's one of the reasons I'm not anti-gov't like the teabaggers.

476 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:43:00am

re: #466 jamesfirecat

I think that's because the Left is already pretty splintered. How else can you explain a someone like Ben Nelson and Al Franken being in the same party?

/how can there be a "sex workers" union?

477 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:43:34am

re: #467 sattv4u2

Huh??!?!

Where did you get that from what Bayh said ??

Whenever you have just the furthest left elements of the Dem party attempting to impose their will on the rest of the country -- that’s not going to work too well

Read the title of the link. It was a joke, son.

478 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:43:44am

re: #458 andres

With the cheer idiocy he's been spouting

At least he's happy!!
On a serious note, you don't think someone can be opposed to Obamas policies without having ODS!?

479 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:44:09am

re: #445 Ben Hur

Bayh Warns "Catastrophe" If Dems Ignore Massachusetts Senate Race Lessons

Serious ODS from Dem Senator Bayh.

How can all these people be so wrong? There are no lessons. It was a bad campaign.

He would've known days ago...

Because DINOs like Bayh are looking for any reason they can find to prevent stuff from being done. If the status quo stays the same then no one has any reason to elect someone new would probably sum up his way of thinking pretty well...

480 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:44:16am

re: #463 Cato the Elder

In China.

Brilliant riff on the 'in bed' line, Cato. Upding for cleverness and originality.

481 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:44:16am

re: #477 Cato the Elder

Read the title of the link. It was a joke, son.

K , sorry ,, I was reading the body of the link and thought I missed something in THAT

482 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:44:18am

re: #446 Cato the Elder

My point was far more valid than your "ongoing care" BS, because in most states they have a system like AHCCCS or Medical, and you can get ongoing care even if you can't afford it. To act like you can't is just willful ignorance.

483 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:44:34am

re: #468 Idle Drifter

Yes, you do a get an attorney, present evidence in your defense, challenge evidence, and question witnesses. My concern is security and what could be more secure than a off country, military instillation.

nobody here ever made a decent argument against tribunals...not once...it always falls back to some ideological nonsense about American goodness/fairness and human rights blather

484 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:07am

re: #472 jamesfirecat

Especially when Curt (Worth every Shilling) and his bloody (red if you will) sock helped take us to our first World Series win in 86 years!

And by "us" I mean I live in Maryland with a mother who is a die hard red socks fan.

ummm, thats Red SOX!

485 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:23am

re: #476 brookly red

/how can there be a "sex workers" union?

I've always wondered if "sex workers" could claim STDs as workman's comp.

486 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:47am

re: #478 sattv4u2

With the cheer idiocy he's been spouting

At least he's happy!!
On a serious note, you don't think someone can be opposed to Obamas policies without having ODS!?

opposed? just being aware of his policies is enough for most people...

487 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:55am

re: #441 filetandrelease

A military tribunal tries a terrorist, finds him guilty, then puts him in front of a firring squad. They deserve nothing more.

No newspapers, no publicity, just a blip in the news. So and so was found guilty and shot yesterday.

FYI - Lethal injection is the only method used by the U.S. Military now.

488 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:56am

re: #482 robdouth

My point was far more valid than your "ongoing care" BS, because in most states they have a system like AHCCCS or Medical, and you can get ongoing care even if you can't afford it. To act like you can't is just willful ignorance.

Tell that to my neighbor who's dying of cancer and has been cut off by the system.

And "most states" doesn't cut it.

489 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:59am

re: #476 brookly red

/how can there be a "sex workers" union?

There are a couple of unionized strip clubs in San Francisco. Why anyone finds that appealing, I'll never know.

490 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:45:59am

re: #471 brookly red

well if they start digging for dirt then we will know for sure...

Someone has alreay bought Brown 2012 domain names.

I want to hear about how he's not qualified.

How the stupid ones (not the stupid ones at Yale-that's soo last regime) go to Tufts and BC.

You know, all the things that differentiate Brown from Obama.

(Aside from the freedom of info attacks on opponents divorce records)

491 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:46:07am

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

huh?

Ditto.

492 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:46:22am

re: #476 brookly red

/how can there be a "sex workers" union?

Once they get JOINED TOGETHER!!

493 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:46:35am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

There are a couple of unionized strip clubs in San Francisco. Why anyone finds that appealing, I'll never know.

I mean...all the BENEFITS!
/

494 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:46:42am

re: #483 albusteve

nobody here ever made a decent argument against tribunals...not once...it always falls back to some ideological nonsense about American goodness/fairness and human rights blather

Okay then fair enough, I'll shift in your direction some on this one, but are we allowed to see transcripts of the tribunals after fact?

One of the main reasons I do support trials at last in the case of the Underwear bombers is because we did the same thing with the Shoe Bomber and those two attacks were all but identical, so why should there be a different way of handling it?

495 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:47:17am

re: #484 sattv4u2

ummm, thats Red SOX!

What so even the artical of clothing that Kurt wear's has to be spelled that way?

496 filetandrelease  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:47:18am

re: #464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LOL, I completely missed it.

497 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:47:30am

re: #479 jamesfirecat

Because DINOs like Bayh are looking for any reason they can find to prevent stuff from being done. If the status quo stays the same then no one has any reason to elect someone new would probably sum up his way of thinking pretty well...

Did you just write, "DINO"?

498 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:47:46am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

There are a couple of unionized strip clubs in San Francisco. Why anyone finds that appealing, I'll never know.

I imagine it does wonders for the workers. And with all the paraphiliacs out there, there must be some who can only get off with union girls.

499 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:00am

Holy Shit! I always thought she looked familiar.

Joan of Arc in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure was played by Jane Wiedlin, of the Go-Go's!

Totally awesome, dudes!

500 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:01am

re: #460 lawhawk

Pass the bill as is? Which bill?

The Senate bill without any changes. If I'm correct all that has to happen is for the House to pass it.
They are in session....
Of course that will never happen Dems don't have the guts.

But whatever, I have (knock on wood) health insurance.

501 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:26am

re: #490 Ben Hur

Someone has alreay bought Brown 2012 domain names.

I want to hear about how he's not qualified.

How the stupid ones (not the stupid ones at Yale-that's soo last regime) go to Tufts and BC.

You know, all the things that differentiate Brown from Obama.

(Aside from the freedom of info attacks on opponents divorce records)

well let's jest see if he can get seated first...

502 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:41am

re: #340 robdouth

That's not true, though. If you have the genes of a camp, you will be far less affected by cigarette smoking that someone who doesn't.

I'm not saying that lifestyle has no effects, but real, actual medical research shows time and time again that genetics are the single greatest predictor of health.

503 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:56am

re: #487 Bobibutu

FYI - Lethal injection is the only method used by the U.S. Military now.

Do civillian courts (in Texas?) still use the electric chair anywhere?

Because it'd be really ironic if the military has a less brutal version of the death penalty than civillian courts do...

504 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:48:58am

re: #501 brookly red

well let's jest see if he can get seated first...

He will be.

505 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:49:20am

re: #497 Ben Hur

Did you just write, "DINO"?

What Democrat In Name Only, you see "RINO" show up on this site fairly often...

506 efuseakay  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:49:38am

They haven't blamed Ted for dying yet?

507 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:49:41am

re: #495 jamesfirecat

What so even the artical of clothing that Kurt wear's has to be spelled that way?

Your mom was a fan of the hosiery Shilling wore that day??!?!

a mother who is a die hard red socks fan

508 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:02am

re: #502 Obdicut

Heh. Genes of a champ, that is. If you have the genes of a camp, have a talk with your mother.

509 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:08am

re: #503 jamesfirecat

Do civillian courts (in Texas?) still use the electric chair anywhere?

Because it'd be really ironic if the military has a less brutal version of the death penalty than civillian courts do...

No, Texas only lethal injection now.

510 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:13am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

There are a couple of unionized strip clubs in San Francisco. Why anyone finds that appealing, I'll never know.

"Associations" have access to broader, lower cost health plans. Probably other legally sanctioned benefits as well.

511 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:39am

Anyone know the process for getting the new Senator installed in the "people's seat?" How long can/should it take? I seem to remember my legislature changing the law (disenfranchising voters) so Gov. Patrick to choose the Kennedys' friend to take the seat, getting Kirk certified and down to DC in a couple of days....

512 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:40am

re: #509 Dark_Falcon

No, Texas only lethal injection now.

Aww... there go most of my Texas jokes...

513 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:50:43am

re: #500 webevintage

The Senate bill without any changes. If I'm correct all that has to happen is for the House to pass it.
They are in session...
Of course that will never happen Dems don't have the guts.

But whatever, I have (knock on wood) health insurance.

Ann "The Man" Coulter has bigger balls than all the Democrats combined. Unfortunately she's batshit crazee, too.

Keep knocking on wood or you just might get to experience the excellent care Robdouth keeps touting. And Cheerios into the bargain!

514 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:51:05am

re: #499 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Holy Shit! I always thought she looked familiar.

Joan of Arc in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure was played by Jane Wiedlin, of the Go-Go's!

Totally awesome, dudes!

Susanna Hoffs (Bangles) is much hotter.

515 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:51:12am

Well, it seems our republic has the chance of staying in a kind of 'stasis' so now at least only entropy can take effect to naturally break us down as opposed to the politicians purposefully doing it.

But I want the dems to go nuclear...just out of some kind of sick voyeuristic interest to see if they really got the guts to do it and give Obama his glory. The repubs missed their nuclear option via McCain back in the day...do the dems follow through?

516 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:51:35am

re: #504 Ben Hur

He will be.

/well if he get's seated quickly, by 2012 he will have more Senate experience that the current president had when he was elected.

and so it begins..

517 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:51:36am

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

No, Texas only lethal injection now.

Same in Florida. Dude was in the chair and his head caught fire. No shit.

518 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:52:02am

re: #507 sattv4u2

Your mom was a fan of the hosiery Shilling wore that day??!?!

a mother who is a die hard red socks fan

Ahh okay my bad, I thought I was smart enough to use the proper spelling when refering to the team my mom likes but evidently my brain was on cruise control and I forgot about the propah Boston pronunciation [Link: tvtropes.org...] included...

519 Bob Dillon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:52:11am

re: #503 jamesfirecat

Do civillian courts (in Texas?) still use the electric chair anywhere?

Because it'd be really ironic if the military has a less brutal version of the death penalty than civillian courts do...

Here ya go.

Texas Lethal injection is the sole method.

[Link: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...]

520 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:52:50am

Well, gotta go. Later all.

521 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:52:59am

re: #482 robdouth

My point was far more valid than your "ongoing care" BS, because in most states they have a system like AHCCCS or Medical, and you can get ongoing care even if you can't afford it. To act like you can't is just willful ignorance.

If you are real lucky you live in an area that is so bad that Remote Area Medical will be coming to town.

How awesome is that, an organization that was founded to provide medical care in third world countries, now does 60% of its work in the United States.
/

522 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:02am

re: #517 Cannadian Club Akbar

Same in Florida. Dude was in the chair and his head caught fire. No shit.

I remember that. Horrifying.

523 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:06am

re: #509 Dark_Falcon

No, Texas only lethal injection now.

I hear that if you commit an especially heinous crime and there are three or more witnesses that they have an express lane for you.

524 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:33am

re: #518 jamesfirecat

Ahh okay my bad, I thought I was smart enough to use the proper spelling when refering to the team my mom likes but evidently my brain was on cruise control and I forgot about the propah Boston pronunciation [Link: tvtropes.org...] included...

If nothing else, I AM a "proper Bostonian"

525 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:35am

re: #515 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, it seems our republic has the chance of staying in a kind of 'stasis' so now at least only entropy can take effect to naturally break us down as opposed to the politicians purposefully doing it.

But I want the dems to go nuclear...just out of some kind of sick voyeuristic interest to see if they really got the guts to do it and give Obama his glory. The repubs missed their nuclear option via McCain back in the day...do the dems follow through?

We don't need to go nuclear, we just have to get the congress to path the senates bill to achieve at lesat some kind of victory on the issue...

526 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:52am

re: #513 Cato the Elder

Ann "The Man" Coulter has bigger balls than all the Democrats combined. Unfortunately she's batshit crazee, too.

Keep knocking on wood or you just might get to experience the excellent care Robdouth keeps touting. And Cheerios into the bargain!

as long as we can still get beer....

527 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:53:59am

re: #523 BruceKelly

I hear that if you commit an especially heinous crime and there are three or more witnesses that they have an express lane for you.

Kudos to Ron White!

528 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:54:00am

re: #494 jamesfirecat

Okay then fair enough, I'll shift in your direction some on this one, but are we allowed to see transcripts of the tribunals after fact?

One of the main reasons I do support trials at last in the case of the Underwear bombers is because we did the same thing with the Shoe Bomber and those two attacks were all but identical, so why should there be a different way of handling it?

I never promoted summary executions, and I never said these people should be denied a trial, which is exactly what the tribunals at Gitmo are for...Holder helped put in the legal work to make them possible himself...he and BO are grandstanding, just read Holders explanation for moving KSMs trial to NYC...and the fact that a civil trial is already compromised by BO and Holder who clearly stated that win, lose or draw KSM is going nowhere...go figure then get back to me with "we're better than that"

529 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:54:18am

Just what is a "firring squad", anyway?

530 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:55:11am

re: #522 Stanley Sea

I remember that. Horrifying.

Especially when the guards approached the guy with marshmellows on a stick!

////

531 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:55:27am

re: #529 Cato the Elder

Just what is a "firring squad", anyway?

5 Elmer Fudds in a line?

532 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:55:55am

re: #513 Cato the Elder

Ann "The Man" Coulter has bigger balls than all the Democrats combined. Unfortunately she's batshit crazee, too.

Keep knocking on wood or you just might get to experience the excellent care Robdouth keeps touting. And Cheerios into the bargain!

don't forget the beer!

533 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:56:05am

Southers is out at TSA. Think they are starting to get it?
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

534 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:56:11am

re: #528 albusteve

I never promoted summary executions, and I never said these people should be denied a trial, which is exactly what the tribunals at Gitmo are for...Holder helped put in the legal work to make them possible himself...he and BO are grandstanding, just read Holders explanation for moving KSMs trial to NYC...and the fact that a civil trial is already compromised by BO and Holder who clearly stated that win, lose or draw KSM is going nowhere...go figure then get back to me with "we're better than that"

What part of

".execute him or dump him into supermax and be done with it...he doesn't even deserve a tribunal let alone a civil trial in NYC"

Doesn't sound like you would support the idea of denying him a tribunal?

535 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:56:21am

re: #529 Cato the Elder

Just what is a "firring squad", anyway?

I think it has to do w/ cheap construction?
Probably of Unionized Strip clubs?

536 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:56:51am

re: #523 BruceKelly

That's Virginia, too.

537 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:57:21am

re: #483 albusteve

nobody here ever made a decent argument against tribunals...not once...it always falls back to some ideological nonsense about American goodness/fairness and human rights blather

Ok, how about this, Tribunals circumvent the entire concept of transparency and enable corruption of the system through the secretive nature of the proceedings. I understand the need and desire for state secrets. But for every time a state secret really is so, there are other times in which state secrets are used to hide Criminal behavior by the individuals in the government.

We have plenty of fine men and women in the military as well as the civil justice system. but they're just that, fallible and human. Temptation to use and abuse power is inherent in all of us and the idea of having tribunals, particularly ones that are opaque and without any sort of significant appeals process or sunlight strikes me as too much power to grant to any entity that decides the fate of other human beings, even the evil ones.

I'm writing this off the cuff, so I'm sure someone can take this and explain the concept better, but you did ask for someone to try :)

538 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:57:53am

re: #513 Cato the Elder

Keep knocking on wood or you just might get to experience the excellent care Robdouth keeps touting. And Cheerios into the bargain!

and I joke, but hubby and I are getting close to that age where you are holding your breath praying that you won't lose your job/health insurance before you are old enough for medicare.

539 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:57:57am

The Mass Dems lost because they made a pact with the devil to, uh, lose elections. Yeah, that's it. Lose. True story.
//

540 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:57:59am

re: #534 jamesfirecat

What part of

".execute him or dump him into supermax and be done with it...he doesn't even deserve a tribunal let alone a civil trial in NYC"

Doesn't sound like you would support the idea of denying him a tribunal?

he's guilty...what part of that don't you get?...he's a military target, so give him a tribunal trial if it makes you feel better

541 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:58:13am

re: #515 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, it seems our republic has the chance of staying in a kind of 'stasis' so now at least only entropy can take effect to naturally break us down as opposed to the politicians purposefully doing it.

But I want the dems to go nuclear...just out of some kind of sick voyeuristic interest to see if they really got the guts to do it and give Obama his glory. The repubs missed their nuclear option via McCain back in the day...do the dems follow through?

According to Gallup support for the current legislation is 49% to 46% in favor (margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points). Political affiliation is 82% Democrats, 39% Independents, and 20% Republicans. If the Dem leadership uses a nuclear option they will experience further loses of support from independents who now oppose the bill(s) by 54%.

542 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:58:21am

re: #505 jamesfirecat

What Democrat In Name Only, you see "RINO" show up on this site fairly often...

I know, and people get ripped for it. Nice big tent you got there.

Soon I'll be able to post comments like,:

Purging DINOs? If that's what you think will win you elections, good luck.
Purging DINOs? But hey, if that's what you want to run on....

Any people still think the DEMS are going to be in prime shape come this years elections?............ Well........??

Heh, don't worry about it. There's very little chance of that happening any time soon. If today's DEMs could build a time machine to 1950 they might have a good chance.

..You know. The usual.

543 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #537 bloodstar

Ok, how about this, Tribunals circumvent the entire concept of transparency and enable corruption of the system through the secretive nature of the proceedings. I understand the need and desire for state secrets. But for every time a state secret really is so, there are other times in which state secrets are used to hide Criminal behavior by the individuals in the government.

We have plenty of fine men and women in the military as well as the civil justice system. but they're just that, fallible and human. Temptation to use and abuse power is inherent in all of us and the idea of having tribunals, particularly ones that are opaque and without any sort of significant appeals process or sunlight strikes me as too much power to grant to any entity that decides the fate of other human beings, even the evil ones.

I'm writing this off the cuff, so I'm sure someone can take this and explain the concept better, but you did ask for someone to try :)

You know that brings to mind an interesting middle ground. What if we had a trial at a place like Gitmo, but we made it so that it was afforable for ordianry peopel to travel there after they go through a reasonable security check? We have a civillian trial, just not in a place as hard to full control as NY...

544 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 10:59:45am

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

545 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:00:13am

re: #537 bloodstar

Ok, how about this, Tribunals circumvent the entire concept of transparency and enable corruption of the system through the secretive nature of the proceedings. I understand the need and desire for state secrets. But for every time a state secret really is so, there are other times in which state secrets are used to hide Criminal behavior by the individuals in the government.

We have plenty of fine men and women in the military as well as the civil justice system. but they're just that, fallible and human. Temptation to use and abuse power is inherent in all of us and the idea of having tribunals, particularly ones that are opaque and without any sort of significant appeals process or sunlight strikes me as too much power to grant to any entity that decides the fate of other human beings, even the evil ones.

I'm writing this off the cuff, so I'm sure someone can take this and explain the concept better, but you did ask for someone to try :)

the tribunals are set up for terrorist trials...why not use them...I could care less about tempting fate...where the hell are you gonna get an impartial jury in NYC...the whole thing is madness

546 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:00:44am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

seems it didn't bother the voters too much...

547 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:05am

re: #543 jamesfirecat

You know that brings to mind an interesting middle ground. What if we had a trial at a place like Gitmo, but we made it so that it was afforable for ordianry peopel to travel there after they go through a reasonable security check? We have a civillian trial, just not in a place as hard to full control as NY...

I myself suggested that very thing months ago

548 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:08am

re: #142 jamesfirecat

And beach front accommodations.

549 Baier  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:21am

Someone is going under the bus for this, my money is on Rahm Emanuel.

550 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:23am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

OMG.

This is bigger than RATHER.

Is it too late?!?!?

Can they REPEAL!?!?

551 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:33am

re: #512 jamesfirecat

Aww... there go most of my Texas jokes...

My state's putting in an expresslane!--Ron White

552 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:50am

re: #542 Ben Hur

I know, and people get ripped for it. Nice big tent you got there.

Soon I'll be able to post comments like,:

Purging DINOs? If that's what you think will win you elections, good luck.
Purging DINOs? But hey, if that's what you want to run on...

Any people still think the DEMS are going to be in prime shape come this years elections?... Well...??

Heh, don't worry about it. There's very little chance of that happening any time soon. If today's DEMs could build a time machine to 1950 they might have a good chance.

..You know. The usual.

Hey, when a guy decides that he's willing to help FILLIBUSTER against a main plank that his party's president campaigned against unless he get what amounts to a bribe, a plank that we've been working on for over two decades now... I'm not saying take it to the Republican extreme, but the Democrats should try and show a little more spine and party disciipline...

553 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:01:55am

re: #514 Mad Al-Jaffee

Oh, no.

554 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:02:13am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution


Theres a reason you haven't seen Ron Paul on TV in months

He had LOTS of cosmetic surgery and came out looking like this
Image: 4691043.jpg

shhhhhhhh!!!

555 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:02:18am

re: #547 albusteve

I myself suggested that very thing months ago

Holy crap we can agree on something!

556 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:02:36am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

I've never seen one...maybe he hasn't either, or know what they represent...you are reaching

557 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:02:55am

re: #538 webevintage

and I joke, but hubby and I are getting close to that age where you are holding your breath praying that you won't lose your job/health insurance before you are old enough for medicare.

That's what happened to my neighbor, now dying of cancer at 53 and waiting to see which comes first, the reaper or eligibility for Medicare, which doesn't kick in until you've been on disability for two years. She could buy into Medicaid, which would only cost her $1,100 of the 1.5 k she gets every month. Then she'd have $400 dollars to cover her $750 rent and Cheerios.

What a great system.

558 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:03:00am

re: #550 Ben Hur

It's something I'm not comfortable with.

559 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:03:02am

re: #500 webevintage

You and 85% of the nation have health care. Under the plans, those that don't want health insurance will be taxed heavily to incentivize them to get insurance (a cost that is no different than taxing them directly). That will hit many of the people who can ill afford additional costs, but are necessary to balance the books since most of those are in good health.

And most plans figure that it will only increase the percentage covered by insurance to 94%.

560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:03:19am

re: #517 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wasn't that Dell?
(Green Mile joke)

561 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:03:59am

re: #556 albusteve

I've never seen one...maybe he hasn't either, or know what they represent...you are reaching

I think it's an indicator of who's behind his campaign.

562 BruceKelly  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:04:06am

re: #529 Cato the Elder

Just what is a "firring squad", anyway?

That's when the nail little strips of wood to 'em.

563 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:04:09am

re: #549 Baier

Someone is going under the bus for this, my money is on Rahm Emanuel.

now that would be a huge thump...I doubt BO realizes he'd be doing everyone a favor, especially himself

564 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:04:15am

re: #546 brookly red

seems it didn't bother the voters too much...

Or Brown.

565 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:04:52am

re: #549 Baier

Someone is going under the bus for this, my money is on Rahm Emanuel.

Oh, fiddlesticks.

566 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:05:12am

re: #529 Cato the Elder

Oh, c'mon. It is a group of people who prepare a cinder block house for vinyl siding.

567 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:05:12am

re: #543 jamesfirecat

You know that brings to mind an interesting middle ground. What if we had a trial at a place like Gitmo, but we made it so that it was afforable for ordianry peopel to travel there after they go through a reasonable security check? We have a civillian trial, just not in a place as hard to full control as NY...

re: #547 albusteve

I myself suggested that very thing months ago

Agreed, I'm not opposed to the idea of moving the trial to a location that's more out of the way, If we can keep the process open, while keeping the critical state secrets that really are important to the security of the Nation out of the public eye, (and some process to make sure that doesn't get abused) then location matters less than keeping everyone honest.

568 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:05:26am

re: #561 Killgore Trout

I think it's an indicator of who's behind his campaign.

No it's not

It's an "indicator" of a sector of the voting public who supported him instead of Coakley!

569 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:05:50am

re: #564 Cato the Elder

Or Brown.

it is what it is...

570 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:05:57am

re: #559 lawhawk

How much of those 85% who have health care have government-funded healthcare?

571 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:06:06am

re: #568 sattv4u2

No it's not

It's an "indicator" of a sector of the voting public who supported him instead of Coakley!

I think the real litmus test will be if we can get him to say how he feels about these people now that he's aware of them...

572 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:06:15am

re: #558 Killgore Trout

It's something I'm not comfortable with.

who would republicans revolt against?...armed revolt?...how could they do it...it's just a flag meant to freak you out

573 djughurknot  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:06:20am

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

I want a chastity belt on this man. I want his every move watched in Washington. I don't trust this guy. This one could end with a dead intern. I'm just saying. It could end with a dead intern.

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

574 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #513 Cato the Elder

The mocking is uncalled for, and you're just being an ass on the cheerios shit. You know what my point was in that sentence and yet you willfully ignore it and make a mocking point completely unrelated. Sorry if the tone was harsh, but I hear stories day in and day out just in the little podunk town of Wickenburg about people who are gaming the system. People who come back early for their refill of their script who stupidly admit when my mom says they can't get that narc until a week from then that they sold what was left in their bottle, and just expected to just be able to get a refill.

My heart goes out to them, if they sold it because they needed the money, but why the hell should we subsidize that with our tax dollars. No one seems to worry about controlling the costs, just getting everyone coverage. More coverage will mean more costs, and more opportunities for fraud in the system which already go unnoticed and undealt with for the most part.

I just can't stand how if you aren't on board with socialized medicine, you're demonized as an uncaring a-hole and your viewpoint is characterized with the quote "I got mine, screw you."

The whole point of the Cheerios bit, is that I am making it, and have good coverage, and make decent money, but I'm still smart enough to set my priorities as not needing name brand everything and saving for my retirement. I'll never sniff 6 figures a year (not even half that), but because of the way I live and save money, I'll retire a multimillionaire using even the most conservative projections. Now is it fair to penalize those who are doing things the right way and planning for the future, when so many of the healthcare and economic problems are from people who won't live within their means? That's the lesson from the Cheerios sentence, not that poor people don't deserve to eat what they want.

You know the average millionaire in this country shops at Costco and tries to live within their means, which is why they got to that point. It's a slap in the face to them, and it basically says that in the fable of the ant and the grasshopper, it's better to be the grasshopper.

575 Baier  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:06:56am

re: #563 albusteve

now that would be a huge thump...I doubt BO realizes he'd be doing everyone a favor, especially himself

I think he must realize he has a perception problem. Many see Obama as an arrogant bully (I don't think that's true) and the one person that personifies that image most is Rham.

576 Pete(Detroit)  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:08:48am

re: #557 Cato the Elder

That's what happened to my neighbor, now dying of cancer at 53 and waiting to see which comes first, the reaper or eligibility for Medicare, which doesn't kick in until you've been on disability for two years. She could buy into Medicaid, which would only cost her $1,100 of the 1.5 k she gets every month. Then she'd have $400 dollars to cover her $750 rent and Cheerios.

What a great system.

Unless I'm mistaken, we ALL agree there is room for improvement in the current system? Most of the discussion is on the nature and extent of said "improvements"... And if you think oncology in Canada or Britain is better than here, I'd be interested in cases. NOT to imply that I'm unsympathetic to your neighbor, but I fail to see how an overworked, underpaid medical establishment that will be rationed to death would be an improvement?

Good news about abortions in Canada? They're covered.
The bad news? There's a nine month waiting list...

577 simoom  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:08:50am

re: #229 Pete(Detroit)

Well, they got in the room... 18 mo ago, we had rooms packed w/ folks who were nearly orgasming at the sight of him, and 'fainting' they were so overcome. Now, they're so desperate to get people into the room that they have to let the freakie loud protesters in?
just sayin...

During the campaign Obama also had has share of hecklers. He usually was pretty good at getting them to stop yelling, though there were a couple events where the screamers didn't let up through his entire speech. He even once had a member of the local media start ranting at him (about the pledge of allegiance) from within the press area, interrupting his stumping.

578 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:09:03am

re: #573 djughurknot

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

Seriously, he said that?

579 Kragar  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:09:45am

re: #573 djughurknot

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

Glenn Beck needs a refreshing can of shut the fuck up.

580 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:09:52am

re: #570 Obdicut

Via wiki:

Around 84.7% of citizens have some form of health insurance; either through their employer or the employer of their spouse or parent (59.3%), purchased individually (8.9%), or provided by government programs (27.8%; there is some overlap in these figures).[1] All government health care programs have restricted eligibility, and there is no government health insurance company which covers all citizens. Americans without health insurance coverage at some time during 2007 totaled about 15.3% of the population, or 45.7 million people.[1]
581 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:10:00am

re: #572 albusteve

It's meant to appeal to the militias and nuts like Glenn Beck who hate America and want to re-found it and start over.

582 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:10:22am

re: #574 robdouth

So, according to you, what should the person who has cancer be doing?

583 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:11:51am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

It's meant to appeal to the militias and nuts like Glenn Beck who hate America and want to re-found it and start over.

it's free speech...and re-founding/starting over is so preposterous it's laughable

584 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:12:11am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

Nope, no connection. None at all. /

I'm still a little surprised that no one really got into his climate change mini-denial. Guess we miss Charles a little lately.

585 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:12:12am

re: #569 brookly red

it is what it is...

Yeah, and what it is in part is religio-fascist nut sandwiches.

586 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:13:07am

re: #580 lawhawk

Nifty. So we have 27.8 percent on government-run health care now-- more than a quarter of the population. I think it's interesting to note that the percentage of those without health insurance is higher than those who buy it for themselves, as well.

587 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:13:12am

re: #539 Shiplord Kirel

Trying to decide which tabloid says it best:
Dems Get Old-Fashioned Mass Kicking
Boston Massacre
Mass Hysteria Hits Dem Incumbents

588 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:13:13am

re: #574 robdouth

The mocking is uncalled for, and you're just being an ass on the cheerios shit. You know what my point was in that sentence and yet you willfully ignore it and make a mocking point completely unrelated. Sorry if the tone was harsh, but I hear stories day in and day out just in the little podunk town of Wickenburg about people who are gaming the system. People who come back early for their refill of their script who stupidly admit when my mom says they can't get that narc until a week from then that they sold what was left in their bottle, and just expected to just be able to get a refill.

My heart goes out to them, if they sold it because they needed the money, but why the hell should we subsidize that with our tax dollars. No one seems to worry about controlling the costs, just getting everyone coverage. More coverage will mean more costs, and more opportunities for fraud in the system which already go unnoticed and undealt with for the most part.

I just can't stand how if you aren't on board with socialized medicine, you're demonized as an uncaring a-hole and your viewpoint is characterized with the quote "I got mine, screw you."

The whole point of the Cheerios bit, is that I am making it, and have good coverage, and make decent money, but I'm still smart enough to set my priorities as not needing name brand everything and saving for my retirement. I'll never sniff 6 figures a year (not even half that), but because of the way I live and save money, I'll retire a multimillionaire using even the most conservative projections. Now is it fair to penalize those who are doing things the right way and planning for the future, when so many of the healthcare and economic problems are from people who won't live within their means? That's the lesson from the Cheerios sentence, not that poor people don't deserve to eat what they want.

You know the average millionaire in this country shops at Costco and tries to live within their means, which is why they got to that point. It's a slap in the face to them, and it basically says that in the fable of the ant and the grasshopper, it's better to be the grasshopper.

Well the best way to control cost is through competition. The problem is that at the moment healthcare doesn't work like most goods. Most goods you have alternatives. If people are charging too much for cars or oil you have the choice to say "nuts to this I'd rather walk, or ride a bike, or take a bus" you get the idea.

Likewise if the price of some kind of food goes up you can just buy other kinds of food.

Now, lets look at healthcare. The problem is that there's no rational theoretical cost at which most people will say "no, that's too expensive, I'd rather die." Thus the prices keep going up, up, up because people will pay whatever the companies want them to.

We need a non profit alternative to healthcare, and since at the moment no company out of the goodness of their heart will do it, we should have the government step in and "promote the general Welfare".

589 harrylook  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:14:14am

re: #573 djughurknot

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

Seriously? Shit, that guy is fucking retarded (Beck).

590 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:14:41am

re: #573 djughurknot

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

Well they say you can judge a man by the quality of his enemies, maybe Scott Brown won't be so bad after all...

591 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:15:22am

re: #584 Stanley Sea

Nope, no connection. None at all. /

I'm still a little surprised that no one really got into his climate change mini-denial. Guess we miss Charles a little lately.

it's not that important, that's why...if the economy and taxing/spending is not the most important agenda in this country, we are gonna end up with trillion dollar deficits and even more govt intervention into the economy

592 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:15:27am

re: #574 robdouth

I just can't stand how if you aren't on board with socialized medicine, you're demonized as an uncaring a-hole and your viewpoint is characterized with the quote "I got mine, screw you."

Project much?

593 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:15:39am

re: #585 Cato the Elder

Yeah, and what it is in part is religio-fascist nut sandwiches.

yes, and it is a shame that what we have in place now makes them a viable option to the voters.

594 djughurknot  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:15:47am

re: #578 Gus 802

Are we really surprised?

re: #579 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Preferably the decaf variety....

595 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:16:12am

re: #586 Obdicut

Nifty. So we have 27.8 percent on government-run health care now-- more than a quarter of the population. I think it's interesting to note that the percentage of those without health insurance is higher than those who buy it for themselves, as well.

And of course remember the people on government run healthcare, include just about every senator and congressman...

596 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:16:51am

re: #556 albusteve
Gives new meaning to the expression ' grasping at straws'.
And straw men.

597 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:17:11am

re: #581 Killgore Trout

It's meant to appeal to the militias and nuts like Glenn Beck who hate America and want to re-found it and start over.

Here's Scott Brown's information at the Federal Election Commission. If you go through the "Itemized Individual Contributions" you will find the majority are from individual contributors and small business people.

598 Ben Hur  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:17:29am

Coakley pollster hits back

"There's a wave here. The first shore was New Jersey and Virginia," Lake told CNN Tuesday, referring to Democratic losses in the governor's races in New Jersey and Virginia. "The second was Massachusetts, and it's coming to the island now, so we'd better do something about it."

She added: "We need to understand that angry voters are the ones turning out to vote. Our base complacent. We need to respond to that.

snip

Coakley's loss is largely blamed on weak support among the state's independents. Ted Kennedy routinely won the independents.

"They voted for change in 2008 and they voted for change in the primary and they voted for change tonight," Lake said. "Either we deliver the change or the voters will deliver it. You either get swamped by this or you ride it, and we'd better ride it."

599 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:17:38am

re: #587 tradewind

Trying to decide which tabloid says it best:
Dems Get Old-Fashioned Mass Kicking
Boston Massacre
Mass Hysteria Hits Dem Incumbents

Its the "Mass kicking" one. Though I did like Jon Stewart's statement that Coakley's campaign was "Mass backwards" (or at least that was the title of the segment) I think comparing loosing a senate seat to a bunch of people getting shot is in bad taste by the way, anyone else?

600 djughurknot  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:17:39am

re: #590 jamesfirecat

So wait- what does that say about Obama?

;)

601 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:18:42am

re: #600 djughurknot

So wait- what does that say about Obama?

;)

Well Obama has majorly pissed of Glen Beck as well...

602 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:19:11am

re: #597 Gus 802

Here's Scott Brown's information at the Federal Election Commission. If you go through the "Itemized Individual Contributions" you will find the majority are from individual contributors and small business people.

Yeah ,,,, but those where did all those "individual contributors" all of a sudden get all that money FROM!!!

//
(once you start believing, theres no way out!)

603 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:19:12am

re: #573 djughurknot

Glenn Beck on Scott Brown:

No idea.

Are we still kicking Gary Condit?

Makes me like Scott Brown all the more.

604 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:19:20am

re: #583 albusteve

re-founding/starting over is so preposterous it's laughable


That's exactly my point. It's Paulian/Birch society nonsense and I want no part of it.

605 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:20:01am

re: #557 Cato the Elder

That's what happened to my neighbor, now dying of cancer at 53 and waiting to see which comes first, the reaper or eligibility for Medicare, which doesn't kick in until you've been on disability for two years. She could buy into Medicaid, which would only cost her $1,100 of the 1.5 k she gets every month. Then she'd have $400 dollars to cover her $750 rent and Cheerios.

What a great system.

Well, why wasn't she house-flipping six years ago, and buying Microsoft stock in the '90's?

////////////

606 4Deuce  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:20:11am

Problem with this blame game crap is that it deflects attention from the issues central to this Dem debacle... If Dems spend all their time pointing fingers and doing the Chris Val Hollen St Vitus Dance (when caught unawares, blame Bush) they show that their arrogance and ego far surpasses their intelligence. The people are fed up with arrogant politicians who tune them out in favor of lobbysists and people with sacks of cash in their hand to buy congressional favors. Blaming isn't what is needed by the Dem powers-that-be, its a lesson in humility and the fact that The People will tolerate only so much arrogance. Yesterday they showed the entire Dem machine, top-to-bottom, that they are fed up with it all and no longer willing to be reasonable any longer.

607 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:20:19am

re: #591 albusteve

it's not that important, that's why...if the economy and taxing/spending is not the most important agenda in this country, we are gonna end up with trillion dollar deficits and even more govt intervention into the economy

All I can say is I don't like those 2nd revolution flags. Not at all. I'm really surprised they were there!!

608 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:20:20am

re: #549 Baier

Rahm is untossable...he not only knows where the bodies are buried.... he put most of 'em there.//

609 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:20:43am

re: #598 Ben Hur

Coakley pollster hits back

Let's blame the voters!

610 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:21:31am

re: #597 Gus 802

Here's Scott Brown's information at the Federal Election Commission. If you go through the "Itemized Individual Contributions" you will find the majority are from individual contributors and small business people.

Didn't Coakley get $740,000.00 from SEIU?

611 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:21:58am

re: #603 MandyManners

Makes me like Scott Brown all the more.

Ditto. If Glen Beck hates you, that's a good sign.

612 Gus  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:22:12am

re: #610 MandyManners

Didn't Coakley get $740,000.00 from SEIU?

Probably, I would have to look.

...going to get some cigarettes.

613 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:22:56am

re: #610 MandyManners

Didn't Coakley get $740,000.00 from SEIU?

that's the amount we know of...

614 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:23:03am

re: #606 4Deuce

Problem with this blame game crap is that it deflects attention from the issues central to this Dem debacle... If Dems spend all their time pointing fingers and doing the Chris Val Hollen St Vitus Dance (when caught unawares, blame Bush) they show that their arrogance and ego far surpasses their intelligence. The people are fed up with arrogant politicians who tune them out in favor of lobbysists and people with sacks of cash in their hand to buy congressional favors. Blaming isn't what is needed by the Dem powers-that-be, its a lesson in humility and the fact that The People will tolerate only so much arrogance. Yesterday they showed the entire Dem machine, top-to-bottom, that they are fed up with it all and no longer willing to be reasonable any longer.

Can I see some links to the fact that there actually are people blaiming Bush for this? I mean there are things Bush did that still impact us today (Obama wouldn't have to figure out how to get us out of Iraq if Bush hadn't gotten us in. Wouldn't have needed to figure out how to close Gitmo if Bush hadn't opened it) But this? I know we dems are pathetic but I'd like to think we're better than this....

615 albusteve  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:23:05am

have to straighten out my laundry girls...they get pesky sometimes

616 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:24:31am

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

There are a couple of unionized strip clubs in San Francisco. Why anyone finds that appealing, I'll never know.

Reminds me of a joke my uncle told me about seniority (lifelong union guy):

This guy gets a big promotion and a huge raise at work. He decides that after years of hard work, he is going to reward himself. He gets a couple of buddies and they hit the strip club.

He walks in and asks for the manager. When the manager comes, the guy says "I'm here to celebrate. I have a lot of money. Get me your most expensive stripper. Money is not an issue." Manager says, "Great, she'll be right over."

A 62-year-old woman shows up and starts to dance for the guy. He's shocked and demands to see the manager. Our guy says, "I wanted your top stripper and this is what you give me?"

The manager replies: "We're union."

617 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:24:40am

re: #610 MandyManners

Didn't Coakley get $740,000.00 from SEIU?

Oh, I hope so.

618 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:24:41am

It's been located - the Palin-Shatner convergence.

619 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:25:32am

re: #612 Gus 802

Probably, I would have to look.

...going to get some cigarettes.

I read it in an article here the day before yesterday. Or, was it yesterday?

620 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:25:34am

re: #582 Obdicut

I don't know their situation. I would recommend doing what my wife's parents do and get catastrophic health coverage. Relatively cheap, and it covers the big things like cancer. Once you no longer have to cover kids, it makes sense. Pay out of pocket for sniffles, but get coverage for the big things for relatively cheap. As for what to do once they don't have coverage, I'm not sure what options there are. That's like asking me in the last minute of a basketball game when a team is down 20, what they should do to win, seems like it should have been done earlier on, but I take Cato at his word that this person is one of those rare situations where a hard working, good person, slips through the cracks on the system. I don't know what the answer is, but I would guess if there wasn't so much waste, fraud, gaming the system, the costs wouldn't be nearly as high, and state systems like AHCCCS and medical wouldn't have to drop people from their plans. If they had modest coverage and insisted on some copays and had checks in place, they'd probably be able to cover more people at least modestly.

621 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:06am

re: #613 brookly red

that's the amount we know of...

I would hope that things are above-board on this election.

622 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:21am

re: #604 Killgore Trout

That's exactly my point. It's Paulian/Birch society nonsense and I want no part of it.

Guilt by non-association

lovely!

623 djughurknot  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:27am

re: #611 Dark_Falcon

Barack Obama and Scott Brown; united with pride against the menace Glenn Beck.

624 Girth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:36am

re: #609 MandyManners

Let's blame the voters!

"The people have spoken, the bastards." --Dick Tuck's concession speech following his loss in the 1966 California State Senate election.

625 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:50am

re: #617 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I hope so.

They didn't get their money's worth.

626 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:26:59am

re: #614 jamesfirecat

Can I see some links to the fact that there actually are people blaiming Bush for this? I mean there are things Bush did that still impact us today (Obama wouldn't have to figure out how to get us out of Iraq if Bush hadn't gotten us in. Wouldn't have needed to figure out how to close Gitmo if Bush hadn't opened it) But this? I know we dems are pathetic but I'd like to think we're better than this...

well in a way it is OK to blame Bush for this, the voters:
a. remember how things were
b. see how things are
c. made a choice.

627 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:27:07am

re: #12 thedopefishlives

Actually, but for the Cornhusker copout and the LA purchase, the people may not have been so exercised.
Harry Reid is probably catatonic right about now.

628 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:27:30am

Victor Davis Hanson takes Obama to the woodshed. The link is to National Review, so it doesn't support those jerks at PJM.

629 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:28:50am

re: #621 MandyManners

I would hope that things are above-board on this election.

politics by it's nature is dirty...

630 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:29:14am

re: #624 Girth

"The people have spoken, the bastards." --Dick Tuck's concession speech following his loss in the 1966 California State Senate election.

That's a real name?

631 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:29:36am

re: #618 lawhawk

It's been located - the Palin-Shatner convergence.

Great stuff. You can dislike Sarah Palin and still enjoy her lightly mocking Shatner.

632 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:29:42am

re: #624 Girth

"The people have spoken, the bastards." --Dick Tuck's concession speech following his loss in the 1966 California State Senate election.

Sort of like

he had to leave office due to health reasons


the voters got sick of him!

633 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:29:52am

re: #629 brookly red

politics by it's nature is dirty...

Don't disillusion Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

634 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:30:43am

re: #544 Killgore Trout

Didn't Brown claim he was unaware of the Tea Parties?
Brown acceptance speech

Those flags his supporters are waving are the Flag of the Second American Revolution

The flags are from Resistnet, who have been written about by the SPLC.

That really sucks that they were front and center at his speech.

635 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:31:05am

re: #633 MandyManners

Don't disillusion Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

something makes me think I can't...

636 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:31:19am

re: #588 jamesfirecat

I disagree. People don't pay the costs. If they did, the prices wouldn't be so high. We have proxies (insurance companies, HMOs) and we have those who don't pay anything (AHCCCS in AZ or other welfare situations) and then when the government only pays a fraction of those bills, the prices are raised so that the fraction they pay, matches somewhat with the cost. Then the prices are raised across the board, so that if someone wants to pay out of pocket, the rate is jacked up because of government interference and the requirement that businesses provide health insurance in the first place. There is limited choice at your job and given that insurance is tied to work, it's all screwed up. You talk about competition, but there is little competition as all the agreements and contracts are decided by the corporations amongs themselves so that it's nearly impossible if you don't have a job, or are self-employed.

I would think we'd do better if we could remove health benes from employment because it would also reduce the cost of employing someone. Reduce the restrictions on interstate health insurance and allow someone to purchase in another state. There are a lot of things, that we don't hear from the right, because their too busy saying no to everything that comes out of Obama's mouth. Hell I'm just an analyst in a healthcare system and there are some really easy fixes that i can see just crunching the numbers from my side. They wouldn't fix everything, but they'd help with savings, and start the ball rolling.

637 Girth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:32:00am

re: #630 MandyManners

That's a real name?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

638 tradewind  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:32:59am

re: #610 MandyManners

Worse, I think she flew into DC last month for a lobbyist fundraiser.
A health care lobbyist fundraiser.

639 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:33:26am

re: #636 robdouth

I disagree. People don't pay the costs. If they did, the prices wouldn't be so high. We have proxies (insurance companies, HMOs) and we have those who don't pay anything (AHCCCS in AZ or other welfare situations) and then when the government only pays a fraction of those bills, the prices are raised so that the fraction they pay, matches somewhat with the cost. Then the prices are raised across the board, so that if someone wants to pay out of pocket, the rate is jacked up because of government interference and the requirement that businesses provide health insurance in the first place. There is limited choice at your job and given that insurance is tied to work, it's all screwed up. You talk about competition, but there is little competition as all the agreements and contracts are decided by the corporations amongs themselves so that it's nearly impossible if you don't have a job, or are self-employed.

I would think we'd do better if we could remove health benes from employment because it would also reduce the cost of employing someone. Reduce the restrictions on interstate health insurance and allow someone to purchase in another state. There are a lot of things, that we don't hear from the right, because their too busy saying no to everything that comes out of Obama's mouth. Hell I'm just an analyst in a healthcare system and there are some really easy fixes that i can see just crunching the numbers from my side. They wouldn't fix everything, but they'd help with savings, and start the ball rolling.

I still feel that at the very least we do need some kind of federal ceiling on the price of healthcare, because I think my statements about how there's no natural ceiling for it to hit stands true. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?

640 badger1970  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:34:09am

re: #637 Girth

And his cousins; Dick Pole ;Dick Trickle

641 Girth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:37:45am

re: #640 badger1970

And his cousins; Dick Pole ;Dick Trickle

Oh how I miss the golden era of Sportscenter with Dan Patrick and Keith Olbermann, when they always told us where Dick Trickle finished in a race, no matter where it was (frequently last).

642 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:38:18am

re: #638 tradewind

Worse, I think she flew into DC last month for a lobbyist fundraiser.
A health care lobbyist fundraiser.

The voters' theme song for her.


643 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:38:25am

re: #639 jamesfirecat

I don't know because when you put ceilings on costs, you get shortages ala gas lines in the 1970's. If you tell people they can only charge so much for an MRI, they will stop doing them and shut down the program if they are taking a loss. I would love to cap some kind of costs, but I think the costs are more tied to the percentage reimbursement moreso than pure supply and demand because there are so many players and variables that make healthcare as it is very uncapitlistic and uncompetitive.

644 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:39:12am

re: #637 Girth

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I'm still snickering.

645 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #639 jamesfirecat

I would argue that the costs are so much more because of the behemoth that healthcare is and adding another couple hundred pages of law to that isn't making it any simpler. If they could repeal some laws and try to simplify the system, it might work better, but that's obviously easier said than done. To many moving parts, no good solutions, and solutions might have been more readily had in the 80's or 90's.

646 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:41:38am

re: #643 robdouth

I don't know because when you put ceilings on costs, you get shortages ala gas lines in the 1970's. If you tell people they can only charge so much for an MRI, they will stop doing them and shut down the program if they are taking a loss. I would love to cap some kind of costs, but I think the costs are more tied to the percentage reimbursement moreso than pure supply and demand because there are so many players and variables that make healthcare as it is very uncapitlistic and uncompetitive.

You say that people would rather not get a profit at all then a smaller one because of government taxes. I've seen precious little proof of that, especially in economy like this people will take whatever jobs they can get more or less.

Besides, like I said there is an alternative to buying gas, there's no alternative to healthcare unless you know of one, thus the market will never cap the price on its own...

647 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:41:46am

re: #620 robdouth

You seriously believe that once you have cancer you can get catastrophic health care coverage, purchased individually?

Or are you saying that she needs to go back in time and purchase that coverage?

648 badger1970  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:42:32am

re: #641 Girth

Grew up in Wisco so he's a local legend. Often during a break in the race (red flag or whatever) he would light a cig while in the car.

649 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:43:57am

re: #645 robdouth

I would argue that the costs are so much more because of the behemoth that healthcare is and adding another couple hundred pages of law to that isn't making it any simpler. If they could repeal some laws and try to simplify the system, it might work better, but that's obviously easier said than done. To many moving parts, no good solutions, and solutions might have been more readily had in the 80's or 90's.

So you dispute that Healthcare isn't a good with alternatives like gas and food and thus the market can find a fair price for it on its own?

650 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:45:50am
651 philosophus invidius  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:46:43am

John McCain said today in an email:

The Democrats are determined to do whatever is necessary to move their big government plans forward. Today, we've put together a petition urging Democrats to seat Scott Brown immediately and I ask that you sign this petition right away.

The Democrats can no longer ignore the will of the American people who oppose government-run health care and massive deficit spending

OK, John. Insofar as the Senate reflects the will of the people, the American people still chosen to seat 59 Dems out of 100. You know what's obstructing the will of the people? When you threaten to filibuster every single piece of legislation even when you have only 40 seats.

652 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:47:37am

re: #651 philosophus invidius

John McCain said today in an email:

OK, John. Insofar as the Senate reflects the will of the people, the American people still chosen to seat 59 Dems out of 100. You know what's obstructing the will of the people? When you threaten to filibuster every single piece of legislation even when you have only 40 seats.

Damn straight! Besides its not gonna matter when Scott Brown is seated, if the bill is gonna get passed it'll be by just having the house approve the Senates plan that's where my money is...

653 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:48:00am

re: #647 Obdicut

You seriously believe that once you have cancer you can get catastrophic health care coverage, purchased individually?

Or are you saying that she needs to go back in time and purchase that coverage?

I saw your post and read robdouth's post 3 times.
I don't see that he said anything anywhere near that.

He said he doesn't know this particular situation.
He admits he doesn't know what can be done in a situation where a person has no coverage and gets cancer.
And he basically suggests that people review their coverage needs once kids are grown, and consider catastrophic illness insurance rather than regular insurance and just pay out of pocket for regular visits.

654 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:48:40am

re: #650 MandyManners

They should have gotten the extended warranty.

655 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:49:38am

re: #652 jamesfirecat

Damn straight! Besides its not gonna matter when Scott Brown is seated, if the bill is gonna get passed it'll be by just having the house approve the Senates plan that's where my money is...

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

656 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:51:22am

re: #626 brookly red

well in a way it is OK to blame Bush for this, the voters:
a. remember how things were the media says things were
b. see how things are are told by the media and politicians how things will be
c. made a choice.

/ fixed that for you

657 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:51:32am

re: #655 cliffster

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

So what you serriously expect the Democrats to move fast?

I'm not saying it'll get passed, but if it does it'll be by sending what the Senate came up with straight to the President's desk, not sending up to Supermajority necessary for everything land a second time...

658 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:51:44am

re: #653 reine.de.tout

He said: I don't know their situation. I would recommend doing what my wife's parents do and get catastrophic health coverage.

I'm not sure how that's not a recommendation.

I'm also unsure what he's basing the idea that this kind of things is 'rare' on. Is it rare for people who have cancer to have enormous problems with insurance? No. It's perfectly common-- if you have cancer.

659 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:52:07am

re: #235 albusteve
i respectfully disagree...

i think conservatism is whats driving this change... People who pay taxes are getting tired of govt growing larger and larger. People are getting tired of politicians tap dancing on the constitution...

The GOP has to be more fiscally conservative, try and shrink govt and let the local govt (not the federal) handle the social stuff... I don't want my congress people getting involved in the MLB steroid situation...

And for all this teabag propaganda, the majority of people attending these meetings (at least in jersey) are just looking for smaller govt and less taxes... I have been to some of the NJ tea parties, you have some wackos, but it was mostly just people upset with the spending and size of our govt...

660 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:53:12am

re: #659 huggy77

What do you mean by 'people who pay taxes'?

Everyone pays taxes.

661 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:53:13am

re: #659 huggy77

i respectfully disagree...

i think conservatism is whats driving this change... People who pay taxes are getting tired of govt growing larger and larger. People are getting tired of politicians tap dancing on the constitution...

The GOP has to be more fiscally conservative, try and shrink govt and let the local govt (not the federal) handle the social stuff... I don't want my congress people getting involved in the MLB steroid situation...

And for all this teabag propaganda, the majority of people attending these meetings (at least in jersey) are just looking for smaller govt and less taxes... I have been to some of the NJ tea parties, you have some wackos, but it was mostly just people upset with the spending and size of our govt...

And yet those tea partiers never raised a peep while we had President Bush setting up prisons outside out borders, and launching the first premptive war in American History....

662 Bloodnok  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:53:21am

Ugh.

AP - Group: More than 200 dead in Nigeria violence

JOS, Nigeria — Charred bodies with scorched hands reaching skyward lay in the streets and a mosque with blackened minarets smoldered Wednesday after several days of fighting between Christians and Muslims killed more than 200 people.

Sectarian violence in this central region of Nigeria has left thousands dead over the past decade, and the latest outbreak that began Sunday came despite the government’s efforts to quell religious extremism in the West African country.

Jos was mostly calm Wednesday, though many terrified civilians kept indoors while soldiers patrolled the streets. The city is situated in Nigeria’s "middle belt," where dozens of ethnic groups mingle in a band of fertile and hotly contested land separating the Muslim north from the predominantly Christian south.

There are conflicting accounts about what unleashed the bloodshed. According to the state police commissioner, skirmishes began after Muslim youths set a Christian church ablaze, but Muslim leaders denied that. Other community leaders say it began with an argument over the rebuilding of a Muslim home in a predominantly Christian neighborhood that had been destroyed in November 2008.

663 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:54:37am

re: #661 jamesfirecat

If you think that was the first pre-emptive war in American history, you need to read more American history.

664 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:55:08am

re: #663 Obdicut

If you think that was the first pre-emptive war in American history, you need to read more American history.

What would you suggest was our first premptive war then?

665 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:55:24am

From ABC.

President Obama warned Democrats in Congress today not to "jam" a health care reform bill through now that they've lost their commanding majority in the Senate, and said they must wait for newly elected Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown to be sworn into office.
Share
One year into the president's term, George Stephanopoulos interviews Obama.

The president also said the same voter anger that swept him into office in 2008 carried Brown into office on a stunning upset victory Tuesday night over heavily favored Democrat Martha Coakley.

LINK

666 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:55:37am

Afetrnoon all. Threads have been lively today.

667 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:56:33am

re: #665 Soap_Man

President Obama warned Democrats in Congress today not to "jam" a health care reform bill through now that they've lost their commanding majority in the Senate, and said they must wait for newly elected Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown to be sworn into office.
Share
One year into the president's term, George Stephanopoulos interviews Obama.

The president also said the same voter anger that swept him into office in 2008 carried Brown into office on a stunning upset victory Tuesday night over heavily favored Democrat Martha Coakley.

Oops. Fixed.

668 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:56:35am

re: #660 Obdicut

I mean people who go provide a service, get compensated for it, and notice a huge chunk getting taken out of it by the federal govt...

669 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:56:47am

re: #664 jamesfirecat

Other than the American Revolution itself, I'd say Vietnam counts, and the Bay of Pigs counts, and Grenada counts, and Panama counts.

670 Digital Display  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:57:22am

re: #666 Bubblehead II

Afetrnoon all. Threads have been lively today.

You were post 666.. Wanna take a ride to the crossroads?
/Good Afternoon

671 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:58:12am

re: #646 jamesfirecat

No that's not it at all. I'm saying that you cap prices charged, it doesn't cap costs. You come into the hospital and need Factor X, which although sounds sci-fi, but is an actual thing then you are getting blood factors that literally cost over a million dollars a day for the dosage. If you cap what the hospital can charge then they could lose millions just on that one patient. I know that's an extreme case, but you can't only cap at the very end, unless you are going to cap what manufacturers can charge for medical supplies and drugs, and yeah for some they will take little profit over no profit, but they will also learn the game and not invest heavily in new drugs and supplies because they will factor in the lowered return on investment. Wouldn't take long before our healthcare was static and or in decline just because of the supplies and procedures that would be rendered obsolete for cost purposes.

672 andres  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:58:21am

re: #478 sattv4u2

With the cheer idiocy he's been spouting

At least he's happy!!

Ehhh, English isn't my first language.

(BTW, it's sheer, right?

On a serious note, you don't think someone can be opposed to Obamas policies without having ODS!?

Entirely possible. Indeed, I reasonably expect it. But there's a difference between disagreeing on the solutions and obstructing for the sake of obstruction.

673 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:58:46am

re: #660 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'people who pay taxes'?

Everyone pays taxes.

No they don't. There are some right here on this board who brag about it.

And then they forget they told us and complain about taxes.

674 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:59:00am

re: #661 jamesfirecat
it took a democrat talking about redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine and cap&tax to set it off...

675 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:59:06am

re: #671 robdouth

You may be interested in reading this article about health care costs and what drives them:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

676 Baier  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:59:33am

re: #608 tradewind

Rahm is untossable...he not only knows where the bodies are buried... he put most of 'em there.//

Nah, Rahm knows the game and he's a team player. If Obama says get under the bus, he'll do it.

677 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 11:59:47am

re: #670 HoosierHoops

Nah, According to some people I know, I am already damned.

678 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:00:28pm

re: #669 Obdicut

Other than the American Revolution itself, I'd say Vietnam counts, and the Bay of Pigs counts, and Grenada counts, and Panama counts.

The displacement of the North American natives...

679 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:00:29pm

re: #665 Soap_Man

From ABC.

LINK


sounds good on the surface, but it might be code for "uh-oh, they aren't buying the health care thing. better just concentrate on the banks for a while, & we can get back to this later"

680 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:00:38pm

re: #620 robdouth

There's nothing rare about it.

681 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:01:25pm

re: #647 Obdicut

I'm saying it's a moot point, would you ask me what a team should do in the last minute of a game when already being blown out? I'm saying as a larger theme, you mandate universal catastrophic instead of universal full health coverage. People would be more likely to spend a little for the big just in case insurance. How am I supposed to know what to do for Cato's neighbor, and why is that the measure for changing 1/6 of the economy for the entire country. Do we put Cato's neighbor on a poster and say if you're against this, you want him/her to die? You can't solve micro level issues with a plea to one macro level case and pretend that it is the norm instead of an isolated case.

682 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:01:30pm

re: #679 brookly red

sounds good on the surface, but it might be code for "uh-oh, they aren't buying the health care thing. better just concentrate on the banks for a while, & we can get back to this later"

That would be fine with me. I'm glad that he at least recognizes what happened and why she lost.

683 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:01:35pm

re: #673 Cato the Elder

I pay a proportional butt-load.

684 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:02:35pm

re: #660 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'people who pay taxes'?

Everyone pays taxes.

People don't below a certain income level.

685 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:02:44pm

re: #671 robdouth

No that's not it at all. I'm saying that you cap prices charged, it doesn't cap costs. You come into the hospital and need Factor X, which although sounds sci-fi, but is an actual thing then you are getting blood factors that literally cost over a million dollars a day for the dosage. If you cap what the hospital can charge then they could lose millions just on that one patient. I know that's an extreme case, but you can't only cap at the very end, unless you are going to cap what manufacturers can charge for medical supplies and drugs, and yeah for some they will take little profit over no profit, but they will also learn the game and not invest heavily in new drugs and supplies because they will factor in the lowered return on investment. Wouldn't take long before our healthcare was static and or in decline just because of the supplies and procedures that would be rendered obsolete for cost purposes.

It bears repeating: price /= cost. Price is what pays for costs. All the talk of government "holding down healthcare costs" is baloney. No matter where you squeeze the tube, the toothpaste is going to have to go someplace.

686 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:03:40pm

re: #678 cliffster

Shit, that's the best one. Thank you.
re: #684 MandyManners

Of course they do. You don't get sales tax removed because you're poor, or gas tax, or payroll tax, or any number of other taxes.

People have a bad habit of saying 'tax' when they mean 'income tax'.

687 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #593 brookly red

yes, and it is a shame that what we have in place now makes them a viable option to the voters.

Right. Because Obama wants to take away their fweedumbs.

688 badger1970  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:04:32pm

re: #684 MandyManners

Sales taxes, phone taxes, school taxes...Just sayin'.

689 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:04:56pm

re: #682 Soap_Man

That would be fine with me. I'm glad that he at least recognizes what happened and why she lost.

well actually not... he summed it up by saying this was a result of "not just the anger of the last year or two, but for the last eight years"

690 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:05:13pm

Sorry I disappeared, today is "prepping for taxes" AKA "where are those fraking receipts and will a paypal print-out work in case of audit?" day.


Oy and Vey.....I need a drink.
(seriously disorganized people should not run a small business)

691 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:05:16pm

re: #669 Obdicut

Other than the American Revolution itself, I'd say Vietnam counts, and the Bay of Pigs counts, and Grenada counts, and Panama counts.

Vietnam wasn't a premptive war because of the Gulf of Tonkin, of course later on that turned out to be not so true, but at least Americans didn't agree to get along with a pre-emptive war, also during the war itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but we never tried to conquer North Vietnam did?

As for the Bay of Pigs, I'd argue that wasn't a war and nobody ever got a chance to vote on it. I'll give you that it was a disgrace however.

As for Grenada once again there was no voting involved.

The American Revolution, well that one is up to the history books to decide as nobody knows who fired the "Shot heard round the world" but it was clear that we had cause to rebel and we hardly tried to invade Great Britian as part of the war.

So yeah let me rephrase slightly, there have been mistakes on both sides (Regan did Grenada, Kennedy did Bay of Pigs) the Iraq War was the first time a President openly made the American people were made aware of the President intending to use our military forces to launch a premptive attack, and nobody complained then...

692 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:05:26pm

re: #681 robdouth

It's not an isolated case. And I'm asking what the solution would be. You say, now, mandated universal health insurance purchases, so this woman would have been forced to purchase private health insurance a long time ago that would not provide for her, is that correct?

693 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:06:11pm

re: #686 Obdicut

Shit, that's the best one. Thank you.
re: #684 MandyManners

Of course they do. You don't get sales tax removed because you're poor, or gas tax, or payroll tax, or any number of other taxes.

People have a bad habit of saying 'tax' when they mean 'income tax'.

I think of income tax when I hear "tax".

694 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:06:26pm

re: #691 jamesfirecat

The wars we had with the Native Americans are definitely the best example.

695 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:06:30pm

re: #688 badger1970

Sales taxes, phone taxes, school taxes...Just sayin'.

Don't forget property tax.

696 Digital Display  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:06:37pm

re: #686 Obdicut

Shit, that's the best one. Thank you.
re: #684 MandyManners

Of course they do. You don't get sales tax removed because you're poor, or gas tax, or payroll tax, or any number of other taxes.

People have a bad habit of saying 'tax' when they mean 'income tax'.

That's why Huckebee's idea of flax tax is so goofy..To replace income tax with a tax on goods and services hurts the poor..

697 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:06:50pm

re: #687 Cato the Elder

Right. Because Obama wants to take away their fweedumbs.

it took you almost 100 comments for that?

698 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:07:08pm

re: #689 brookly red

well actually not... he summed it up by saying this was a result of "not just the anger of the last year or two, but for the last eight years"

Thanks for the clarification. I more-or-less just scanned the story.

699 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:07:33pm

re: #674 huggy77

it took a democrat talking about redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine and cap&tax to set it off...

Umm... McCain was talking about cap&tax also you realize.


Also what's so bad about talking about "socalized medicine" Brittian has it and they pay less per person and on average get better care than we do? Some things the government just does better than the private industry, if you don't believe me ask fire fighters or police officers...

700 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:07:58pm

re: #592 Cato the Elder

No actually, that quote of "I've got mine, so screw you" is from earlier in the thread look it up. Where have I said you guys are uncaring A-holes? Do you understand what projection means? I wouldn't argue you guys are uncaring, it's obvious from your position that you do care, I just hate the implication that because I don't share that position that it's because I don't care, which is backed up with your going off on a tangent about the damn cheerios comment. You need to search for the I've got mine, in this page, and you'll know exactly what I'm referring too. Also, look up projection because you are using it all wrong. I've not once claimed you were all uncaring or even implied it.

701 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:07:59pm

re: #693 MandyManners

But some people who don't pay much income tax still pay a significant amount of tax in other forms of tax, is my point. Talking about the 'people who pay taxes' as though it's not all of us is, to me, needlessly divisive.

702 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:08:33pm

re: #684 MandyManners

People don't below a certain income level.

They still pay sales tax unless they also don't buy things...

703 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:08:51pm

re: #690 webevintage

Same here, maybe thats while i am on the tax kick all the sudden...

704 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:09:11pm

re: #694 Obdicut

The wars we had with the Native Americans are definitely the best example.

True, but I don't think we voted on those either, I'll have to check some history web sites, I think Iraq was the first premptive war we voted on...

705 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:09:47pm

re: #691 jamesfirecat

May I ask by preemptive War you mean we declared War first or initiated a surprise attack?

706 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:10:05pm

re: #698 Soap_Man

Thanks for the clarification. I more-or-less just scanned the story.

I couldn't believe it myself, but they just played it on the radio and he is still blaming Bush... I think we got us a dog that only knows one trick.

707 MandyManners  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:10:08pm

re: #696 HoosierHoops

That's why Huckebee's idea of flax tax is so goofy..To replace income tax with a tax on goods and services hurts the poor..

Costs a poor woman as much as a rich woman to buy a loaf of bread.

708 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:10:35pm

re: #684 MandyManners

Actually everyone pays taxes in one form or another. Look at your phone bill (universal access charge). Power Bill (Franchise Fee or something like it) and then you have the Local/State sales tax.

709 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:10:57pm

re: #685 The Sanity Inspector

Well then address James's point directly. I said you can't just squeeze the hospital or end provider and tell them they can't charge above a certain number, because they'll all fail before there is a change in the system. Yeah it sounds good to "control costs" when all you are doing is putting an artificial price ceiling that doesn't address why the costs are high. All it does it pass the buck to the hospital or doctor to find ways to cut back. That's ridiculous. Everyone should have to take some of the hit. Too much strain on one link in the healthcare chain and it will just break. That's what I was referring too. You can't just choke it off at one point and expect that to even fix the problem, when it will probably make it worse.

710 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:11:43pm

re: #693 MandyManners

I think of income tax when I hear "tax".

re: #702 jamesfirecat

re: #701 Obdicut

Mandys correct. When the subject of "taxes" comes up here most are talking and thinking about fed income taxes, not state/local/city sales taxes which are a given that everyone pays

BUT ,,,, saying that, people with more to spend pay more of THOSE taxes also!

711 Silvergirl  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:11:55pm

re: #46 lawhawk

Just walked into this thread, so you may have other comments on this, but the end of your post was my fave:

For the GOP, they have to follow the immortal words of Han Solo - "Don't get cocky, kid!" Run out good candidates who run good campaigns on issues that matter to the wide spectrum of voters, and you can win elections. Cater to a narrow demographic, and you're not going to win. It's all about getting the most votes, and Brown hit on a recipe to win in Mass, just as Christie did in NJ - the economy matters, taxes matter, and controlling government spending matters.

712 brookly red  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:12:23pm

re: #707 MandyManners

Costs a poor woman as much as a rich woman to buy a loaf of bread.

/life is a shit sandwich... the more bread you have the less shit you eat.

713 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:13:00pm

re: #620 robdouth

...but I take Cato at his word that this person is one of those rare situations where a hard working, good person, slips through the cracks on the system

It's those lazy, bad people who can go get screwed, right?

And you decide which is which.

714 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:13:08pm

re: #699 jamesfirecat
Thats not a good thing...

I will look at the brits medicine system as being better than ours when they stop coming here for treatment... NEXT!

715 Soap_Man  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:13:11pm

re: #706 brookly red

I couldn't believe it myself, but they just played it on the radio and he is still blaming Bush... I think we got us a dog that only knows one trick.

I don't think it is incorrect to say there are people who are still angry at Bush. But saying the reason people are angry at him or the Dems is becauseof Bush is, well, stupid.

716 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:13:11pm

One of America's first preemptive wars was the War of 1812.

717 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:13:36pm

re: #705 Idle Drifter

May I ask by preemptive War you mean we declared War first or initiated a surprise attack?

By Premptive war I mean it was brought before the congress and they were asked "hey we want to declare war on this country, because we're afraid of what they might do!" Every other time congress has been asked to declare war to my knowledge, we had a Casus Belli that dealt with us already being attacked.

Some of them didn't pan out under the gaze of history (Gulf of Tonkin, Remeber the Mane) but to my knowledge this was the first time our congress voted to go to war because we were afraid of what another nation might do to us...

718 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:14:53pm

re: #709 robdouth

Well then address James's point directly. I said you can't just squeeze the hospital or end provider and tell them they can't charge above a certain number, because they'll all fail before there is a change in the system. Yeah it sounds good to "control costs" when all you are doing is putting an artificial price ceiling that doesn't address why the costs are high. All it does it pass the buck to the hospital or doctor to find ways to cut back. That's ridiculous. Everyone should have to take some of the hit. Too much strain on one link in the healthcare chain and it will just break. That's what I was referring too. You can't just choke it off at one point and expect that to even fix the problem, when it will probably make it worse.

I'm not suggesting we squeeze the hospitals, I say we do it to the insurance companies, the ones that are constantly raising the prices we have to pay to get the treatment, not the people who give us the treatment itself...

719 Cato the Elder  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:16:36pm

re: #697 brookly red

it took you almost 100 comments for that?

Bad internet connection.

720 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:17:11pm

re: #717 jamesfirecat

Wasn't there a list of reasons declaring war on Iraq brought before congress that included what they might do, what they were doing, and what they were failing to do in compliance with an international treaty?

721 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:17:57pm

re: #714 huggy77

Thats not a good thing...

I will look at the brits medicine system as being better than ours when they stop coming here for treatment... NEXT!

Yeah we offer great treatment if you can afford it. But what about for the average Joe Six Pack, or ... you know saying Joe Tea Bag has all kinds of implications so let me instead suggest your average Christopher Crumpet. The US has the best healthcare in the world only if you've got the money to affoard it.

So yes the richest people in the world might come here to get treament, but at the same time, our average citizens are getting a much worse job.


That clear up my point or do you feel that the fact that the very best care in the US is better than the best care in the UK makes up for the fact that the average care here in the US is so much worse than that in the UK?

722 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:19:06pm

re: #716 Idle Drifter

One of America's first preemptive wars was the War of 1812.

What about the impressment of American Sailors? That's like a combination of Kidnapping and slavery, that seems like a fair cause for war to me...

723 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:20:19pm

re: #720 Idle Drifter

Wasn't there a list of reasons declaring war on Iraq brought before congress that included what they might do, what they were doing, and what they were failing to do in compliance with an international treaty?

And I suggest that in doing so we were breaking a great American tradition. Because we the American People had never agreed to war out of free of what "might happen" before then....

724 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:21:21pm

re: #692 Obdicut

No again, how the hell could I possibly know how to fix one woman's case when I know nothing about what she did to get where she is. Again you're saying here is a full blown problem, fix it you naysayer. I'm saying that's stupid because you have to deal with it as a system, and ask, how can we prevent people from getting to that point. I don't know what the answer is, I've just recommended that we cut back waste because of the numerouse anecdotes of waste and fraud in the system that I know of. This is a really weak form of argument that if I don't know how to fix one woman's problems, or other people who are like her, then what? What happens next? It's patently stupid to expect one person has the answer to a problem that is so endemic to the system. It's like a massive dam about to break and you're quibbling with me over how I'm supposed to fix this one crack that's an inch wide. What point are you proving by hammering on Cato's neighbor's case. There is no point there. I can't solve her and the country's problem, therefore... (Fill in the ... for me please.)

725 subsailor68  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #718 jamesfirecat

I'm not suggesting we squeeze the hospitals, I say we do it to the insurance companies, the ones that are constantly raising the prices we have to pay to get the treatment, not the people who give us the treatment itself...

Hi jamesfirecat! Sorry about jumping in here, but you may not be able to squeeze health insurance companies very much either. There's a lot of anger at the prices, but these companies have pretty slim profit margins

Fact Check: Health insurer profits not so fat

Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.

Not sure what the answer to the overall problem with health care is, but there's not much wiggle room here it appears.

726 webevintage  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:23:19pm

re: #707 MandyManners

Costs a poor woman as much as a rich woman to buy a loaf of bread.

Not really because it takes more of a poor woman's income to buy that bread then the rich woman.

727 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:26:14pm

re: #724 robdouth

No, I'm not. I'm using an example as a way to elucidate what system you think would help her stop falling through the cracks. It's a perfectly honest question.

Did you read the article that I linked that talks about drivers for health care costs?

What do you think of the fee-for-procedure model of payment for physicians? That's one of the key factors affecting health care usage and costs.

728 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:26:22pm

re: #713 Cato the Elder

What the hell is your problem? you guys beat on an individual situation and what does it prove? So I'm wrong then and waste, fraud is no problem is the system. Fine, since your neighbor has cancer and the system failed her, fuck it, throw out the entire system, and I'm sure Obamacare will make it all better for everyone. This is juvenile logic. You're just trying to make witty comebacks and hiding behind your dying neighbor so you don't have to make any points. Good job using your neighbor to shield you from making any points. I just raised concerns. You answer none of them and hold up the sacrificial lamb of your neighbor.

What do you think needs to be done for your neighbor? You know her better than I do. I can't possibly know what to do for her. Congrats you won a completely convoluted point using your neighbor as a prop. One person on the internets can't figure out the entire solution to the bureaucracy that is healthcare. Now help get Obamacare passed so all your neighbor's problems can be solved and we can all get back to painting and poetry.

729 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:28:51pm

re: #728 robdouth

Dude, could you dial it back to like a five or so? You're at about an eleven.

That people who get serious illnesses are the ones who have the most trouble with their insurance is not an individual point. It's a systemic one. Mandated catastrophic insurance, with regulation to prevent companies from pulling it, would solve that, and it's something you appeared to be offering above. This is not a gotcha game, it's an honest attempt to understand what system you would favor, and why you would.

730 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:31:17pm

re: #717 jamesfirecat

We definitely voted on the various Indian wars. Seriously, get some history-learnin' in ya.

731 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:31:45pm

re: #725 subsailor68

Hi jamesfirecat! Sorry about jumping in here, but you may not be able to squeeze health insurance companies very much either. There's a lot of anger at the prices, but these companies have pretty slim profit margins

Fact Check: Health insurer profits not so fat

Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.

Not sure what the answer to the overall problem with health care is, but there's not much wiggle room here it appears.

Huh, well like I said I stand by my ideas that the government needs to be more involved with Healthcare than other goods because healthcare has no natural market price. That may mean we need a top price that gets adjusted every so often...

But clearly the unqiue nature of the good means that we need to make sure people aren't taking advantage of that nature to screw over the average person...

732 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:32:32pm

re: #731 jamesfirecat

If you haven't read it, read the Gawande article I posted above. Great stuff.

733 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:33:38pm

re: #732 Obdicut

If you haven't read it, read the Gawande article I posted above. Great stuff.

Okay I'll take a look before I eat dinner...

734 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:34:31pm

re: #721 jamesfirecat

My grandfather was a cop for 30 years, an average joe... When we where trying to track down some of the medical ailments he had we saw some of the best doctors in NJ. We eventually chose to see a pulmonary specialist in NY because he was well respected...

My grandfather was joe sixpack and still had all that freedom of choice in medical care and saw terrific doctors.

735 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:36:16pm

re: #734 huggy77

The ability to select your doctor is not in the least bit incompatible with UHC, though. Or single-payer. Many single-payer countries have people able to see any doctor they like.

736 Jerusalemyte  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:38:35pm

A Democratic System doesn't guarantee that you get a DEMOCRAT every time that you go to the polls. May the best candidate win! This time I think that the voters actually voted for the candidate and not the ideology.

737 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #727 Obdicut

Fair enough, no I haven't looked at it, but when I read your comments, I get the feeling that you are expecting me to provide some catch all solution. I agree wholeheartedly with you and Cato that there should be a safety net for those who the system fails, but I think it's a difference of degrees as to the size of the net, and who should need it. I really don't know the answer, but I see a lot of waste and silliness in the system from the point of view of being a financial analyst for a healthcare system. So specifically when James was mentioning about charging patients. I work for a NPO healthcare system in AZ, and I can tell you we're not working for huge profits, and when we do have decent ones, we are required to reinvest in the community, meaning other services, or a new hospital, which we did a couple years back. People aren't getting rich in the hospital business unless they are doing for-profit and are trying to cut corners all over the place. I can't speak for how they do it. I'll try to get to your articles later. I was having trouble keeping up, and I didn't mean to have the eleven at you, it was more the snarkiness and constant beating to death of a point I wasn't making by Cato. He's normally pretty even keel too, but he just kept trying to paint me into this a-hole who doesn't care about his neighbor or people like her.

738 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:41:04pm

re: #722 jamesfirecat

What about the impressment of American Sailors? That's like a combination of Kidnapping and slavery, that seems like a fair cause for war to me...

And the British at the time counterpointed with arresting deserting British Sailors though there were clear cases of mistaken identity and not giving fuck about citizenship. Plus there were trade disputes about neutral trade rights with warring powers. Also the British trade and arming of various Indian Tribes in the face of American expansion into settlements in the Northwest Territory. There were also American objections to the war as a guise to a land grab of Canadian lands.

739 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:41:06pm

re: #734 huggy77

My grandfather was a cop for 30 years, an average joe... When we where trying to track down some of the medical ailments he had we saw some of the best doctors in NJ. We eventually chose to see a pulmonary specialist in NY because he was well respected...

My grandfather was joe sixpack and still had all that freedom of choice in medical care and saw terrific doctors.

He also had the money to pay for a specialist. All I'm suggesting is to give people a choice to buy a government run not for profit healthcare plan if they want to, so if we're trying to give people the most choices about their healthcare possible then we should be able to agree with each other.

Or am I missing something?

740 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:42:07pm

re: #737 robdouth

Well, yes, if the question is "how can we provide universal health care', you do actually need a universal system. If you're comfortable with us not having universal health care, obviously the question doesn't apply.

Did you read the Gawande article yet?

741 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:42:16pm

re: #735 ObdicutYou just have to wait a long time to see them...

742 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:43:42pm

re: #696 HoosierHoops

The first X amount of purchases is tax free.

743 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:44:18pm

re: #712 brookly red

/life is a shit sandwich... the more bread you have the less shit you eat.

so cold... so true.

744 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:44:26pm

re: #739 jamesfirecat

I have a problem because when the government gets into the healthcare business, they aren't on an equal footing with other insurers. They can demand savings, or institute price controls or do whatever they want to make their plan either more efficient, or seem more efficient. Also, they don't have to worry about even breaking even because they have an endless supply of investment dollars (taxes).

745 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:45:33pm

re: #739 jamesfirecat
I would prefer giving Americans more free market choices... The govt needs to get smaller not expand into other sectors..

746 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:45:50pm

re: #744 robdouth

I have a problem because when the government gets into the healthcare business, they aren't on an equal footing with other insurers. They can demand savings, or institute price controls or do whatever they want to make their plan either more efficient, or seem more efficient. Also, they don't have to worry about even breaking even because they have an endless supply of investment dollars (taxes).

Okay then, how about the compramise of a non profit healthcare company started with government seed money? That way it can compete with the other companies, if it keeps taking looses it will tank and vanish and if it works then it works. That sound like a fair middle ground?

747 robdouth  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:47:52pm

re: #746 jamesfirecat

As long as the government doesn't try to pass laws to specifically uneven the playing field. But if you're going to do that, why not just incentivize the current insurance carriers to do what you want. Will the gov't run one be allowed in all 50 states? how can a local insurer compete with a company that can operate nationally when they can only operate on a state by state basis?

748 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:48:17pm

re: #745 huggy77

I would prefer giving Americans more free market choices... The govt needs to get smaller not expand into other sectors..

Did you miss my explination of why healthcare can't have a proper price for it determined by the free market?

People will never say "no that's too expensive I'll do without" with healthcare when "doing without" means dieing. Okay there are people who say that and go without insurance, but then they end up dieing/going bankrupt when something goes wrong.

How will/can the freemarket control the price on a good that has no alternative?

749 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:48:33pm

re: #741 huggy77

I'm going to start charging you a misused ellipses tax.

The wait times in most countries aren't significantly different from ours, and are better than ours in some specialties-- which is a factor of the fee-for-service model, mainly.

Of course, factoring in those people whose wait time is infinity is hard, too.

750 subsailor68  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:48:51pm

re: #746 jamesfirecat

Okay then, how about the compramise of a non profit healthcare company started with government seed money? That way it can compete with the other companies, if it keeps taking looses it will tank and vanish and if it works then it works. That sound like a fair middle ground?

I'm a little unclear as to your terminology. When you propose a non-profit healthcare company, do you mean an insurance company or a company designed to provide health services - such as a clinic?

751 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:49:01pm

re: #748 jamesfirecat

And we, the taxpayers, wind up paying for their care.

752 Lidane  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:49:56pm

re: #25 albusteve

policy had nothing to do with it?...okay

re: #27 sattv4u2

Before the 'period", you have to add "and wrong on the issues that concerned the people there"

That's sort of implied in the notion that she was a terrible candidate, at least IMO. It's not just campaign skill-- it's the total package.

Personally, her stances on the issues don't affect me. I'm in Texas, not MA. I had no stake at all in the outcome of this election, so I didn't care where she stood on anything. However, the voters in MA clearly found her lacking, and found her a terrible candidate overall, since she lost.

There's no one else to blame for this loss except her, IMO. Had she been a better candidate that the voters in MA had found worthy, she'd have won. It's that simple.

753 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:50:23pm

re: #747 robdouth

As long as the government doesn't try to pass laws to specifically uneven the playing field. But if you're going to do that, why not just incentivize the current insurance carriers to do what you want. Will the gov't run one be allowed in all 50 states? how can a local insurer compete with a company that can operate nationally when they can only operate on a state by state basis?

Why does operating in more states give the government one an advantage exactly?

What if the government used seed money to start 50 non profit companies one in each state?

The reason we can't incentivize the current insurance carries to do what we want is because, what we want is for them to lower prices, and we've already talked about how price ceillings aren't a good idea, so instead we'll try compettion instead. We can't force people to start/become non profit companies so instead we'll make some....

754 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #746 jamesfirecat
Yes it does... Why cant our congress work this well... Throw out those guys and bring in the lizards and lets fix this country...

There are answers out there that wont destroy the incentive that drives innovation in this country...

755 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:51:04pm

re: #750 subsailor68

I'm a little unclear as to your terminology. When you propose a non-profit healthcare company, do you mean an insurance company or a company designed to provide health services - such as a clinic?

Non profit insurance company.

756 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:52:32pm

re: #754 huggy77

You realize that many 'lizards', like myself, favor universal health care-- I prefer single-payer, personally.

757 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:53:44pm

re: #754 huggy77

Yes it does... Why cant our congress work this well... Throw out those guys and bring in the lizards and lets fix this country...

There are answers out there that wont destroy the incentive that drives innovation in this country...

Umm I hate to break it to you but the seed money idea was one that was proposed [Link: articles.latimes.com...]

Joe Liberman helped shoot that one down as being "too liberal" for him.

Of course his wife is a big wig with the insurance company so I'm sure there was no conflict of interest involved...

758 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:56:01pm

re: #756 Obdicut

Absolutely, this is one of those things that makes this country great though, people with conflicting ideas on how to do things putting their minds together to innovate.

759 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:56:43pm

re: #758 huggy77

Okay. So you're not opposed to single-payer health insurance, then?

760 blueraven  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #725 subsailor68

Hi jamesfirecat! Sorry about jumping in here, but you may not be able to squeeze health insurance companies very much either. There's a lot of anger at the prices, but these companies have pretty slim profit margins

Fact Check: Health insurer profits not so fat

Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.

Not sure what the answer to the overall problem with health care is, but there's not much wiggle room here it appears.

Perhaps if they weren't paying their CEOs 10 million a year and cut some of the top management salaries and bonuses, they would have more profit.

761 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 12:59:00pm

re: #759 Obdicut
I am opposed to single payer, but i want to improve things... I think if you have honest people working on a problem, even if you are from different political camps, you can do great things...

762 huggy77  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 1:01:59pm
Perhaps if they weren't paying their CEOs 10 million a year and cut some of the top management salaries and bonuses, they would have more profit.

Or they would be getting less talented people because there compensation is not competitive and be in the red...

763 Silvergirl  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 1:04:22pm

Has someone already posted this Kerry and Coakley photo? Even though "I feel your pain" is a Clinton line, This photo has the pain all over it.

764 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 1:06:13pm

re: #762 huggy77

Or they would be getting less talented people because there compensation is not competitive and be in the red...

Sounds like maybe we need government ceilings on how much CEOs can get paid...

765 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 1:08:51pm

re: #761 huggy77

Sure. However, at some point, you really do have to go with one kind of plan or another. We can't have both free-enterprise market solutions (which don't exist, anyway) to health insurance, and single-payer. Single-payer works because it's single-payer.

I think there's this weird idea that the health care bill just needs to be compromised more, and then it'll work. Most systems won't work if they're compromised. You really do have to decide on one.

Read the Gawande article listed above, for even more perspective.

766 cliffster  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 1:09:39pm

re: #763 Silvergirl

Has someone already posted this Kerry and Coakley photo? Even though "I feel your pain" is a Clinton line, This photo has the pain all over it.

As Dale Earnhardt said, "Second place is just the first loser"

767 SilentAlfa  Wed, Jan 20, 2010 2:16:27pm

re: #763 Silvergirl

Has someone already posted this Kerry and Coakley photo? Even though "I feel your pain" is a Clinton line, This photo has the pain all over it.

That's the most emotion I've seen Kerry show, ever.

768 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 3:09:13am

re: #639 jamesfirecat

I still feel that at the very least we do need some kind of federal ceiling on the price of healthcare, because I think my statements about how there's no natural ceiling for it to hit stands true. Do you agree or disagree with me on that?

Disagree, vigorously - that's like saying there "should" be a ceiling on the prices of a car, and you "should" be able to buy a Ferrari for $50k.. sad fact is you can NOT profitably build and sell a Ferrari for $50k - not w/o sacrificing everything that makes it worth buying.
Likewise, if you have a brain surgeon who can remove a tumor w/o any collateral damage, why should s/he NOT be able to charge more than one who does cause damage, and doesn't always get the tumor?

That's the thing socialism (almost?) never takes into account - QUALITY
SOME things COST more because they're WORTH more.

769 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 3:58:47pm

re: #671 robdouth

Wouldn't take long before our healthcare was static and or in decline just because of the supplies and procedures that would be rendered obsolete for cost purposes.

See Also Russia, 1945 - 1990, France and England 1990 - Present...

770 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 4:08:46pm

re: #701 Obdicut

But some people who don't pay much income tax still pay a significant amount of tax in other forms of tax, is my point. Talking about the 'people who pay taxes' as though it's not all of us is, to me, needlessly divisive.

Um, other than Income (and a fair bit of the price of gas, smokes, and possibly alcohol) how many taxes go to the Fed?
Just askin...

771 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 4:12:55pm

re: #713 Cato the Elder

It's those lazy, bad people who can go get screwed, right?

And you decide which is which.

You think lazy parasites who live solely by the sweat of others deserve support? Really?
Just askin... (and you are free to support as many as you can...)

772 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 4:22:55pm

re: #731 jamesfirecat

Huh, well like I said I stand by my ideas that the government needs to be more involved with Healthcare than other goods because healthcare has no natural market price. That may mean we need a top price that gets adjusted every so often...

But clearly the unqiue nature of the good means that we need to make sure people aren't taking advantage of that nature to screw over the average person...

Sorry, had to down ding you there.
Better resources >> better access >> better goods
Basic market theory
If you want to have 'lowest cost provider' health services, I simply suggest you call tech support and attempt to get a computer problem fixed.
Is this the guy you want performing surgery on your appendix? Your BRAIN!?!
(I will refrain from suggesting the two are equivalent)

773 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 4:26:22pm

re: #739 jamesfirecat

He also had the money to pay for a specialist. All I'm suggesting is to give people a choice to buy a government run not for profit healthcare plan if they want to, so if we're trying to give people the most choices about their healthcare possible then we should be able to agree with each other.

Or am I missing something?

Yes, the whole raft of OCare.
It's not about 'choice', it's about 'force'..

774 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Jan 21, 2010 4:28:38pm

re: #746 jamesfirecat

Okay then, how about the compramise of a non profit healthcare company started with government seed money? That way it can compete with the other companies, if it keeps taking looses it will tank and vanish and if it works then it works. That sound like a fair middle ground?

See Also BCBS (the Michigan varient, anyway)
Pretty good system, *I* think, and I really do NOT want the Feds effing it up


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