Re: That Himalayan Glacier Prediction Error

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Environment • Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:30 am PST • Views: 922

While traveling I received several emails about the latest cause celebre of climate change “skeptics,” a badly sourced prediction that Himalayan glaciers could disappear by the year 2035, attributed to the World Wildlife Fund in an IPCC report. The London TimesOnline story about this was headlined, “World misled over Himalayan glacier meltdown,” which sounds pretty bad. Those evil scientismists, up to their tricksy ways again.

RealClimate has a good post on the issue, acknowledging the need to correct the error and work harder to ensure that poorly sourced claims aren’t included in IPCC documents — but also making the much larger point that although the 2035 prediction may not have been sourced properly, the glaciers of the Himalayas are still receding rapidly: RealClimate: The IPCC is not infallible (shock!).

Like all human endeavours, the IPCC is not perfect. Despite the enormous efforts devoted to producing its reports with the multiple levels of peer review, some errors will sneak through. Most of these will be minor and inconsequential, but sometimes they might be more substantive. As many people are aware (and as John Nieslen-Gammon outlined in a post last month and Rick Piltz goes over today), there is a statement in the second volume of the IPCC (WG2), concerning the rate at which Himalayan glaciers are receding that is not correct and not properly referenced.

The statement, in a chapter on climate impacts in Asia, was that the likelihood of the Himalayan glaciers “disappearing by the year 2035″ was “very high” if the Earth keeps warming at the current rate (WG 2, Ch. 10, p493), and was referenced to a World Wildlife Fund 2005 report. Examining the drafts and comments (available here), indicates that the statement was barely commented in the reviews, and that the WWF (2005) reference seems to have been a last minute addition (it does not appear in the First- or Second- Order Drafts). This claim did not make it into the summary for policy makers, nor the overall synthesis report, and so cannot be described as a ‘central claim’ of the IPCC. However, the statement has had some press attention since the report particularly in the Indian press, at least according to Google News, even though it was not familiar to us before last month.

It is therefore obvious that this error should be corrected (via some kind of corrigendum to the WG2 report perhaps), but it is important to realise that this doesn’t mean that Himalayan glaciers are doing just fine. They aren’t, and there may be serious consequences for water resources as the retreat continues. See also this review paper (Ren et al, 2006) on a subset of these glaciers.

Here’s a little more perspective on this flawed prediction: it’s quoted only in one paragraph in the second volume of the IPCC’s fourth Assessment Report — and not in any of the technical summaries, which are more widely read, but only on page 493 of Chapter 10 of this very lengthy document on the impacts of climate change (PDF).

So yes, it’s a breakdown in the scientific vetting process for these kinds of claims, but on the other hand it’s been vastly exaggerated and blown up into a huge issue, far beyond what is warranted. If you’re really interested in the subject, I recommend at least glancing through the other 3000 pages of the AR4 documents to see how much information and research is not in question.

For some graphic evidence of the effects of global warming in the Himalayas, RealClimate posted this photo showing a then-now image of the East Rongbuk glacier:

East Rongbuk glacier just below Mt. Everest has lost 300-400 ft of ice in this area since 1921.
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510 comments

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1 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:37:13am

An AGW thread & less that half an hour till kickoff... flounces and fumbles, oh my.

2 sandbox  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:42:57am

I used to believe in AGW, now I am agnostic on the issue.

3 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:44:03am

Whether this is AGW or a natural process, it is going to greatly affect life on the Indian subcontinent.

4 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:45:44am

re: #2 sandbox

I used to believe in AGW, now I am agnostic on the issue.

I am kinda old fashion, I still worry more about plain old pollution.

5 Big Steve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:46:29am

It just that regardless of the reasons, rational, and logic behind the prediction, those of us serious about climate understanding needed this like a hole in the head.

6 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:47:39am

The glaciers aren't the only thing i've read recently that were goofily overstated. The link between AGW and hurricanes/flooding has been toned down as well.

Charles, this is where i differ semantically from you. There are 1,000 other facts that are not in question. The 50 or so predictions that these reports base on the facts need to be quadruple-verified, lest a string of overly aggressive prognostications cast an overlarge shadow across otherwise voluminous data.

Messing up a chart or calculation among a thousand happens. Boldly predicting X when it's not even close is just unbearably sloppy, and it's killing the debate. i've made hundreds of presentations at work. every professional knows that you can screw up a data point and be forgiven if your conclusion is on par. we get hammered if we get the data right and screw up the conclusion, though.

7 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:47:56am

Its the bane of modern politics, everyone has to be perfect or they're going to be utterly destroyed.

Especially if theres alot of money at stake.

8 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:48:20am

"Those evil scientismists."
Hah!

9 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:50:03am

re: #7 windsagio

Its the bane of modern politics, everyone has to be perfect or they're going to be utterly destroyed.

Especially if theres alot of money at stake.

how about "when there's a lot of money at stake, don't predict beyond what your statistical error will permit". science is best when it predicts with the requisite cautionary tone about error and uncertainty, not when it makes sensational claims that later turn out to be just that...sensational.

10 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:50:22am

re: #5 Big Steve

It just that regardless of the reasons, rational, and logic behind the prediction, those of us serious about climate understanding needed this like a hole in the head.

bingo

11 LibertyvilleMike  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:51:27am

I find this statement by Pr. Hasnain the most chilling: “I was keeping quiet as I was working here,” he said. “My job is not to point out mistakes. And you know the might of the IPCC. What about all the other glaciologists around the world who did not speak out?” Now why would a scientist be afraid of the IPCC?

12 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:52:45am

re: #11 LibertyvilleMike

I find this statement by Pr. Hasnain the most chilling: “I was keeping quiet as I was working here,” he said. “My job is not to point out mistakes. And you know the might of the IPCC. What about all the other glaciologists around the world who did not speak out?” Now why would a scientist be afraid of the IPCC?

He really said that? Ugh. Grow a pair.

13 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:53:33am

re: #11 LibertyvilleMike

I find this statement by Pr. Hasnain the most chilling: “I was keeping quiet as I was working here,” he said. “My job is not to point out mistakes. And you know the might of the IPCC. What about all the other glaciologists around the world who did not speak out?” Now why would a scientist be afraid of the IPCC?

are we now in the age of "big" science?

14 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:54:01am

re: #9 Aceofwhat?

there's a funny thing there... You see it in arguments (online or in-person) all the time. If you're presented with hardcore adamant opposition, your own position tends to become more extreme, or at least overstated.

There are dozens of times where I, at least, have been arguing something, then an hour later, thought 'wow, how did I come to saying that?'

*note, I'm not talking about the rightness or wrongness of the IPCC here, but rather an interesting (to me) side observation

15 sandbox  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:54:43am

I am to remember the contingent requirement for APG to matter:
1. That APG is happening.
2. That, if it is,we (the world) are able to impact this effect.
3. That it (APG) matters.

help me out...

16 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:54:59am

re: #14 windsagio

there's a funny thing there... You see it in arguments (online or in-person) all the time. If you're presented with hardcore adamant opposition, your own position tends to become more extreme, or at least overstated.

There are dozens of times where I, at least, have been arguing something, then an hour later, thought 'wow, how did I come to saying that?'

*note, I'm not talking about the rightness or wrongness of the IPCC here, but rather an interesting (to me) side observation

i totally agree. great observation

17 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:55:09am

Global warming is real and obvious except perhaps to those who just will not see. The big problem is that while we humans can contribute to it, I see almost nothing that can be practically done to control it. Controlling it is hubris I think from the activist crowd. At least as much effort needs made in technology to survive it as to limit it. Accelerated research and development of water resources is vital to forestay a lot of grief. IMHO of course.

18 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:56:24am

re: #17 The Shadow Do

water is and all ways will be the issue...

19 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:56:47am

re: #17 The Shadow Do

I think 'controlling' really has the force of 'mitigating', but rephrased for general consumption. Mitigation lacks force, y'know?

Its far beyond our ability to stop Global warming, but we have to do every single thing we can to limit further damage. Every Single Thing.

20 LibertyvilleMike  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:58:31am

FYI - I just noticed that Charles linked to a different TimesOnline story than the one I quote from - mine is here: [Link: tinyurl.com...]

21 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:58:38am

re: #19 windsagio

Maybe the same thing leads to these occasional stories of overstated claims?

They know and understand the crisis pretty well, but need a red flag to wave in front of people to get action, especially given the entrenched (and monied) opposition to even the concept that there's a problem.

22 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:59:23am
So yes, it’s a breakdown in the scientific vetting process for these kinds of claims, but on the other hand it’s been vastly exaggerated and blown up into a huge issue, far beyond what is warranted. If you’re really interested in the subject, I recommend at least glancing through the other 1000 pages of the full report to see how much information and research is not in question.

Now that we have seen how much of the information in this report is NOT peer-reviewed (see foot notes of this report) or based on conversations, preliminary studies, popular magazines and so on, a honest question would be how much of this research will be in question in the future?

When I find a major flaw in some software I wrote, I usually step back to examine whether my procedures and techniques could have produced similar errors in other parts of my work.

It's possible.

23 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:59:54am

re: #20 LibertyvilleMike

on a meta note, is there some reason that you won't link directly? Those masked links always give me hives >>

24 sandbox  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:01:39pm

On John Batchelor show, he brings on guest--Zimmerman (forget his first name) --a major scientist--who says the lack of sun spots in recent years is the cause of the recent cooling. He is a skeptic of global warming.

25 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #19 windsagio

I think 'controlling' really has the force of 'mitigating', but rephrased for general consumption. Mitigation lacks force, y'know?

Its far beyond our ability to stop Global warming, but we have to do every single thing we can to limit further damage. Every Single Thing.

That has been a matter of concern for me, depending on who you ask every single thing can be anywhere from from using funny looking light bulbs to greatly reducing the worlds population in a not so pleasant manner.

26 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:02:42pm

re: #21 windsagio

Maybe the same thing leads to these occasional stories of overstated claims?

They know and understand the crisis pretty well, but need a red flag to wave in front of people to get action, especially given the entrenched (and monied) opposition to even the concept that there's a problem.

reminds me of quotes i read from scientists who felt that an Inconvenient Truth may have taken some liberties and stressed worse-case scenarios, but that it was forgivable in the name of raising awareness.

Exactly the sort of statement that will move your average AGW agnostic closer to full-out skepticism. We need our climatologists to be as vigilant about overhype as dissemination. Still, I don't want to forget to blame shameless attackers who waste many of the scientists' time with spurious accusations and distortions.

27 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:03:06pm

re: #19 windsagio

I think 'controlling' really has the force of 'mitigating', but rephrased for general consumption. Mitigation lacks force, y'know?

Its far beyond our ability to stop Global warming, but we have to do every single thing we can to limit further damage. Every Single Thing.

I disagree, if "everything" means mass impoverishment then what is the point of it all. Everything within reason? I'm fine wiht that.

28 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:03:45pm

I trust that the Times of London is not one of the websites that gets blocked here when climate change is discussed.

The problem about the IPCC report is that it concerns the way the IPCC operates. The PROCESS. We are endlessly told that it is all peer-reviewed, but in this instance it is obvious to any fair-minded person that there was either total incompetence or abuse of process.

Ther Times is also, quite rightly, raising serious questions about the bona fides of the IPCC head, Dr Pachauri. Specifically, about his business dealings. Looks to me like he stands to gain from the whole climate-change bandwagon :

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

In normal circumstances I'd be surprised if Dr Patchauri could hang on to his job at the IPCC. But given the overall UN aim of screwing money out of Western nations, on whatever pretext, he's probably safe to carry on benefitting from his conflicts of interest.

29 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #25 brookly red
re: #27 The Shadow Do

lol good point >>

I guess I fell into the same trap of overemphasis, "Every Single Reasonable Thing" also lacks force. ;)

30 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:07:11pm

re: #28 JohninLondon


In normal circumstances I'd be surprised if Dr Patchauri could hang on to his job at the IPCC. But given the overall UN aim of screwing money out of Western nations, on whatever pretext, he's probably safe to carry on benefitting from his conflicts of interest.

It's a great point. The UN's heavy involvement in this affair isn't helping the discussion on the merits very much, given how well they manage their other bureaucracies...i don't trust most other things that the UN gets involved in, so it required a whooole lot of reading for me to make the unnatural leap in this case.

31 LibertyvilleMike  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:07:40pm

re: #23 windsagio

No reason other than habit.

32 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:08:28pm

re: #26 Aceofwhat?

I kind of question that. Your average skeptic is generally already plugged into sources of disinformation, and your average agnostic is a skeptic that doesn't want to admit they're a skeptic, due to the stigma.

An example of that is the ol' "I'm just raising questions" dodge.

Even with the 'scandals' of various force, the reality of the situation should be clear to anyone that does any serious independent research.

re: #31 LibertyvilleMike

heh fair enough, I just won't click on 'em, tho', no way to tell where they're going for reals (not a dig on you, just general precautions :p)

33 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:09:44pm

OK, I'll go now - after derailing the thread. Manning on his ass! Yeah baby.

34 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:10:05pm

re: #28 JohninLondon

err, if yer talking about the "UN Agenda", you're generally on some pretty strong stuff >> (thats what I get for not reading all the way to the bottom)

35 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #33 The Shadow Do

pff watch it on your computer and comment between plays >

36 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:11:56pm

re: #32 windsagio

I kind of question that. Your average skeptic is generally already plugged into sources of disinformation, and your average agnostic is a skeptic that doesn't want to admit they're a skeptic, due to the stigma.

An example of that is the ol' "I'm just raising questions" dodge.

Even with the 'scandals' of various force, the reality of the situation should be clear to anyone that does any serious independent research.

Fair enough, although the fewer sensational claims made by climatologists, the less independent research required to buy into the basic agreement that AGW is taking place. I would also posit that your average skeptic goes looking for disinformation because they keep hearing that they have to massively change their way of life because some UN panel said so.

Like you said before...the problem of both sides escalating rhetoric...

37 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:12:44pm

re: #35 windsagio

pff watch it on your computer and comment between plays >

or watch it on tv and comment between plays. i love football but in a 3hr game there's only about 30min of real action. leaves lots of time for posting...

38 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:15:28pm

Jets ain't looking to bad...

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:16:49pm

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

Now that we have seen how much of the information in this report is NOT peer-reviewed (see foot notes of this report) or based on conversations, preliminary studies, popular magazines and so on, a honest question would be how much of this research will be in question in the future?

When I find a major flaw in some software I wrote, I usually step back to examine whether my procedures and techniques could have produced similar errors in other parts of my work.

It's possible.

The IPCC has built a very rigorous system for checking the data published in their Assessment Reports -- teams of experts check the reports line by line. I posted an article that described this process once. You shouldn't get the impression that this particular error implies there are a lot more errors lurking, or that the IPCC process for vetting claims is not thorough.

What this error shows is that no system involving human beings can be flawless. It's impossible, and it's unrealistic to expect. Mistakes can and will always creep in despite the best efforts to keep them out.

40 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:18:49pm

re: #36 Aceofwhat?

To some degree you're right. Like it or not, the science community needs to understand the nature of what they're fighting (my meaning being that a mistake is huge ammunition for their enemies).

The problem is, they're also being held to an utterly unfair standard. Nobody's perfect, and science could almost be defined as the process of refining error. The Climate science community is expected to get everything right the first time. Nothing in research ever works that way.

or:

re: #39 Charles

What this error shows is that no system involving human beings can be flawless. It's impossible, and it's unrealistic to expect. Mistakes can and will always creep in despite the best efforts to keep them out.

that's another good way to put it :p

41 holeinone#7@pebble  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:19:32pm

Dr. Lol came out and said the Himalayan report was published to "put pressure on the politicians to do something". Sounds like the hot air - AGW- is coming from the IPCC scientists.

42 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:20:53pm

re: #41 holeinone#7@pebble

When I clicked on your avatar, I got this: This lizardoid's name does not seem to exist in the LGF repository.

43 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:21:18pm

re: #42 MandyManners

just for you:

Karma: -24

holeinone#7@pebble

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jul 8, 2006 at 2:14 pm
No. of comments posted: 14
No. of links posted: 0

44 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:22:07pm

re: #42 MandyManners

When I clicked on your avatar, I got this: This lizardoid's name does not seem to exist in the LGF repository.

It's the # in the nic, I think.

45 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:23:38pm

re: #39 Charles

The IPCC has built a very rigorous system for checking the data published in their Assessment Reports -- teams of experts check the reports line by line. I posted an article that described this process once. You shouldn't get the impression that this particular error implies there are a lot more errors lurking, or that the IPCC process for vetting claims is not thorough.

What this error shows is that no system involving human beings can be flawless. It's impossible, and it's unrealistic to expect. Mistakes can and will always creep in despite the best efforts to keep them out.

You state "I recommend at least glancing through the other 1000 pages of the full report to see how much information and research is not in question."

Correct, not in question now. But you cannot be sure that anything in this AR4 report will not be in question in the future, either because of increased scrutiny or simply advancing science, what may reveal new aspects of this whole field on inquiry.

46 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:23:48pm

re: #40 windsagio

To some degree you're right. Like it or not, the science community needs to understand the nature of what they're fighting (my meaning being that a mistake is huge ammunition for their enemies).

The problem is, they're also being held to an utterly unfair standard. Nobody's perfect, and science could almost be defined as the process of refining error. The Climate science community is expected to get everything right the first time. Nothing in research ever works that way.

or:

re: #39 Charles

that's another good way to put it :p


Again, asking whether the IPCC process is thorough is unfair, i agree. I think it's fair to ask whether it's effective. In any report of substance you can make transcription errors, typos, etc, but you just don't skimp on reviewing your conclusions. There are fewer of them, and they can be smell-tested (unlike calculations). As much review as this document gets and not one person says "wait...the glaciers gone by 2035...that can't be right...the average temp would have to increase by twenty to get that effect...hold on a second".

conclusions are much, much easier to quadruple check than the reams of supporting data.

47 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:25:11pm

re: #32 windsagio

I kind of question that. Your average skeptic is generally already plugged into sources of disinformation, and your average agnostic is a skeptic that doesn't want to admit they're a skeptic, due to the stigma.

Plugged into what? There is no need to be plugged into anything to understand that there could be problems with the why information is vetted by the IPCC. Evidently, in the case above there was. Have you actually looked over the AR4? Have you examined the footnotes? Anyone that knows anything about peer-review science would question (and are questioning) the large amount of questionable sources as displayed in the footnotes.

And just as my own footnote on this, I don't deny climate change, but, there are a lot of FPD (faulty process deniers) who can't bring themselves to admit that there are mistakes being made, and these mistakes are doing no good for advancing the science.

I'm not happy with mistakes.

48 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:26:11pm

"the glaciers of the Himalayas are still receding rapidly"

Except for the ones that are extending quite rapidly. Those ones are not receding at all.

This is just one indication of the junk science. Evidence now exists that the data for Russia, Australia and New Zealand were manipulated, and new evidence has come to light that the world data set was selectively reduced. Evidence exists that some 90% of US stations are not accurate to one degree (the suggested warming is less than this error). The data processing was varied from uncertain through sloppy to fraudulent. The data handling was, if possible, worse.

There is no sound evidence for any systematic warming of the Earth over an unusually sustained period, let alone attributing warming to human activity. This is good news for humankind. Celebrate.

P.S. I am half expecting to be banned for this. If you believe a few hundred people at Patterico's it might be enough, or my defence of this view might be. However you claim not to ban people simply for disagreeing. I am curious to find out.

49 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:26:51pm

That the "error" made it into the IPCC AR4 is in itself, merely a mistake based upon sloppy standards on relying on activist reports instead of peer reviewed science.

The real scandal is how the "mistake" was covered up by Dr. Pachauri who hired Dr. Hasnain to work for his institute TERI. Not only did Dr. Hasnain not correct the alleged mistake which he knew to be false, he directly colluded with Pachauri to repeat the claim and use it as the key basis for attracting about 3 million in funding to "study" the glaciers. At that point this was no longer a mistake, rather a conspiracy to defraud.

Also, while this appears a small point in the West, were the poor Polar Bears are the symbol of Climate Alarmism, in India, it was exactly this false claim about the glaciers that is the key issue that whipped up fears. This is why this, and Patchauri's vast conflicts of interests, is a major story in India.

50 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:27:40pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

heh, last time we went along this path I remember you getting really mad at me >>

The end result here is that they made a mistake, we understand why they made the mistake, but we also understand that the underlying science behind AGW is not lessened one whit by that mistake.

That is the argument the concern-trolls are making, and thats the argument that has to be put to bed.

51 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:27:42pm

re: #48 RandomUK

you could start by using links where you say "evidence supports" so that we can each keep our own counsel about whether the evidence supports...

52 Summer Seale  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:27:44pm

Science is evil! It showed us the world isn't flat and now nothing is the same anymore! Because of science, there's crime and hate and liberal values and nothing is sacred anymore!

All because they say the world isn't flat!

53 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:28:32pm

re: #49 Bagua

That the "error" made it into the IPCC AR4 is in itself, merely a mistake based upon sloppy standards on relying on activist reports instead of peer reviewed science.

The real scandal is how the "mistake" was covered up by Dr. Pachauri who hired Dr. Hasnain to work for his institute TERI. Not only did Dr. Hasnain not correct the alleged mistake which he knew to be false, he directly colluded with Pachauri to repeat the claim and use it as the key basis for attracting about 3 million in funding to "study" the glaciers. At that point this was no longer a mistake, rather a conspiracy to defraud.

Also, while this appears a small point in the West, were the poor Polar Bears are the symbol of Climate Alarmism, in India, it was exactly this false claim about the glaciers that is the key issue that whipped up fears. This is why this, and Patchauri's vast conflicts of interests, is a major story in India.

And what does that have to do with the price of beans? :)

54 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:28:33pm

re: #52 Summer

I thought it was because science says we're descended from monkeys.


My Grandpa ain't no damn monkey!!!

55 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:29:06pm

re: #50 windsagio

heh, last time we went along this path I remember you getting really mad at me >>

The end result here is that they made a mistake, we understand why they made the mistake, but we also understand that the underlying science behind AGW is not lessened one whit by that mistake.

That is the argument the concern-trolls are making, and thats the argument that has to be put to bed.

Am I making that argument?

56 Randall Gross  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:29:32pm

I was getting ready to write this up as well, but since C has covered it well, there's little more to say other than there's more at Deltoid over at Science blogs, and I'm disappointed to see Frum retweeting the Times article today.

57 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:29:36pm

re: #46 Aceofwhat?

Okay-- but then it should be easy to point to more errors in the IPCC documents. This isn't some secret document that's hidden away, available to only a few readers. This is a fully public document, and a highly charged one.

58 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:30:21pm

re: #39 Charles

The IPCC has built a very rigorous system for checking the data published in their Assessment Reports -- teams of experts check the reports line by line. I posted an article that described this process once. You shouldn't get the impression that this particular error implies there are a lot more errors, or that the IPCC process for vetting claims is not thorough.

What this error shows is that no system involving human beings can be flawless. It's impossible, and it's unrealistic to expect. Mistakes can and will always creep in despite the best efforts to keep them out.


Charles

The glacier howler seems a pretty egregious error to have somehow slipped through such a net of checks and double-checks.

The IPCC has frequently claimed that its procedures and processes are flawless. But here we have a serious error that snuck through - and where the IPCC head, Dr Pachauri, appears to have had a direct financial interest in the falsehood staying unchallenged.

And isn't it a major claimed problem about the IPCC that the peer-reviewing is not sufficiently widely-based - there have been plenty of arguments that the "jury is often stacked", that there is an inner cabal ?

59 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:31:05pm

re: #48 RandomUK

Can you please explain why you believe more than 90% of the world's climatologists are in error or involved in a conspiracy?

60 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:31:13pm

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

You state "I recommend at least glancing through the other 1000 pages of the full report to see how much information and research is not in question."

Correct, not in question now. But you cannot be sure that anything in this AR4 report will not be in question in the future, either because of increased scrutiny or simply advancing science, what may reveal new aspects of this whole field on inquiry.

I made a mistake in my post -- the full AR4 document is actually more than 3000 pages long.

And I didn't say that absolutely everything in there is perfect, either. I said there's a massive amount of evidence and research in those documents that is not in question. Yes, they may find more errors, that's a given. But not a lot more errors, and certainly not enough to invalidate the other 3000 pages of the report.

61 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:31:46pm

re: #58 JohninLondon


The IPCC has frequently claimed that its procedures and processes are flawless.

Can you provide one time that the IPCC has described its process as 'flawless', please?

You've claimed they do it frequently: i'll take just once, thanks.

62 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:33:07pm

re: #60 Charles

for the record, i agree, lest my nitpicking be mistaken for anything other than fun during commercials...

63 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:33:10pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

hrm, you do question the validity of the entire paper in #22.

Really I'm talking about a general trend. There's a ton of statements every time an error of any sort comes out about how 'this puts the whole idea of global warming into question!!'

64 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:34:03pm

Another key observation is when this obvious error was pointed out by Indian scientists, Pachauri attacked those scientists and claimed they were using "voodoo science", another indication of the warmist standard procedure of attacking and attempting to discredit dissent.

In fact, the man who was the bases for the 2035 claim, and knew it to be mere wild speculation Dr. Hasnain, was in the employ of Dr. Pachauri and there is no way that Pachauri could have been unaware that this key claim was no more than hot air.

This is more than a 'mistake' which is forgivable, this is a fraud and cover-up with huge implications.

65 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:34:10pm

re: #57 Obdicut

Okay-- but then it should be easy to point to more errors in the IPCC documents. This isn't some secret document that's hidden away, available to only a few readers. This is a fully public document, and a highly charged one.

you'll be happy to know that i provided just such a link above! Aceofwhat is here to please...

66 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #60 Charles

I made a mistake in my post -- the full AR4 document is actually more than 3000 pages long.

And I didn't say that absolutely everything in there is perfect, either. I said there's a massive amount of evidence and research in those documents that is not in question. Yes, they may find more errors, that's a given. But not a lot more errors, and certainly not enough to invalidate the other 3000 pages of the report.

Point of clarify. The Cambridge document say it's 976 pages long. Is there more in the original document not available to the general public, or is the Cambridge version simply a annotated version?

67 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:34:47pm

re: #58 JohninLondon

The IPCC has frequently claimed that its procedures and processes are flawless.

That's completely untrue. The IPCC made no such claim.

68 Summer Seale  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:35:06pm

re: #54 windsagio

I thought it was because science says we're descended from monkeys.

My Grandpa ain't no damn monkey!!!

My flat earth controversy came before your EVIL-ooshun controversy! So stand in line! =)

69 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:36:46pm

re: #39 Charles

I might have said this before. If there were no flaws in a report this large, one ould assume poor vetting or lies. Above a certain size every project/report/device has flaws. Scientific fact checking is important, indeed critical.

As we see elsewhere making the perfect the enemy of the good is a "poison pill" to obstruct or undermine the effort. An effort that must be made. AGW may be the biggest reason to change, but it is at the top of a lengthy list.

70 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:37:18pm

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

Point of clarify. The Cambridge document say it's 976 pages long. Is there more in the original document not available to the general public, or is the Cambridge version simply a annotated version?

There are several documents in the full AR4 report. Here's the index page for the IPCC reports: [Link: www.ipcc.ch...]

71 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:37:24pm

re: #64 Bagua

Another key observation is when this obvious error was pointed out by Indian scientists, Pachauri attacked those scientists and claimed they were using "voodoo science", another indication of the warmist standard procedure of attacking and attempting to discredit dissent.

In fact, the man who was the bases for the 2035 claim, and knew it to be mere wild speculation Dr. Hasnain, was in the employ of Dr. Pachauri and there is no way that Pachauri could have been unaware that this key claim was no more than hot air.

This is more than a 'mistake' which is forgivable, this is a fraud and cover-up with huge implications.

Bleh. One piece of fraud in a document with 900 pieces of more accurate items? What would be the point? This is a mistake + blustering by Hasnain + lack of cojones by Pachauri, = bigger mistake than it should have been, imho. Seems silly to call it fraud, though. There's no benefit, given that this particular claim was unnecessary to make the larger point.

72 Racer X  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:38:24pm

Charles, LGF is wonky again for me today. Everything takes forever to load. Unbearably slow. Not sure if I'm the only one but every other site I've checked is fine.

FYI

73 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #48 RandomUK

Do you have links to photographs or reports that support your point? If so that would be the way to make your point stick, without worries of banning or down dings.

74 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:39:13pm

re: #63 windsagio

hrm, you do question the validity of the entire paper in #22.

Really I'm talking about a general trend. There's a ton of statements every time an error of any sort comes out about how 'this puts the whole idea of global warming into question!!'

No I don't, I asked "... how much of this research will be in question in the future?" As we all know, there is some recent questions about a section of Chapter 10, which has also opened people (like me) to ask if there are other problems that may have creep into the research.

Another eye opener (for me) was that the IPCC uses all sorts of sources, including non peer-reviewed material to build their case.

And no, I don't say that anything puts the whole idea of climate change in question, but mistakes can put the process in question.

I hope the process and vetting procedures are as accurate as possible, don't you?

75 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:39:55pm

re: #58 JohninLondon

Charles

The glacier howler seems a pretty egregious error to have somehow slipped through such a net of checks and double-checks.

The IPCC has frequently claimed that its procedures and processes are flawless. But here we have a serious error that snuck through - and where the IPCC head, Dr Pachauri, appears to have had a direct financial interest in the falsehood staying unchallenged.

And isn't it a major claimed problem about the IPCC that the peer-reviewing is not sufficiently widely-based - there have been plenty of arguments that the "jury is often stacked", that there is an inner cabal ?

I think its egregious too. But it wasn't a methodological error of the type that would cast real doubt on other data and conclusions, just a stupid error of the type that casts doubt on the management of the document. The former would be a major problem, whereas the latter is a major annoyance.

76 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:40:12pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

I hope the process and vetting procedures are as accurate as possible, don't you?

I'd say that rightwingconspirator said it best:

re: #69 Rightwingconspirator


As we see elsewhere making the perfect the enemy of the good is a "poison pill" to obstruct or undermine the effort.

77 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:40:30pm

re: #72 Racer X

Charles, LGF is wonky again for me today. Everything takes forever to load. Unbearably slow. Not sure if I'm the only one but every other site I've checked is fine.

FYI

i'm running Firefox and things are smooth. have you tried a diff. browser?

78 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #70 Charles

There are several documents in the full AR4 report. Here's the index page for the IPCC reports: [Link: www.ipcc.ch...]

Thanks... I see that there appears to be 4 different sections.

79 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:41:26pm

re: #48 RandomUK

P.S. I am half expecting to be banned for this. If you believe a few hundred people at Patterico's it might be enough, or my defence of this view might be. However you claim not to ban people simply for disagreeing. I am curious to find out.

How does it feel to carry a chip around on your shoulder like that? Comfy?

80 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:41:36pm

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Do you have links to photographs or reports that support your point? If so that would be the way to make your point stick, without worries of banning or down dings.

i asked too. nada...which is telling. usually when people care about a point, they stick around to help support it, dontcha think?

81 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:42:19pm

Aceofwhat

Have you really not heard of Climategate and the recent revelations about the drop in stations for the GISS data set from 6000 to 1500, dropping out most of the high-altitude and high-latitude (i.e. cooler) stations?

If you are really lost, then you should read a lot. Here are a few links I gathered for a friend who was interested. Vary greatly in nature, but all are supportable from more evidence if you care to look further. I have a degree in Earth Sciences, and couldn't possibly bring you up to speed in this forum, but there are plenty of sources on the net.

Overview: [Link: joannenova.com.au...]

US: [Link: www.surfacestations.org...]

Australia: [Link: www.smh.com.au...] and [Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Russia: [Link: en.rian.ru...]

NZ: [Link: blogs.news.com.au...] [Link: blogs.news.com.au...] and [Link: climateaudit.org...]

Climategate overall was well-covered at [Link: bishophill.squarespace.com...]
check out
[Link: bishophill.squarespace.com...]
[Link: bishophill.squarespace.com...]

The most important part was the poor data and bad processing: [Link: di2.nu...] - [Link: di2.nu...]

That is a small selection that comes easily to hand. You really have to read a lot more to begin to understand the issue.

82 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:42:31pm

re: #76 Obdicut

As we see elsewhere making the perfect the enemy of the good is a "poison pill" to obstruct or undermine the effort.

Well, you can call me what you want... it's not going to stop me from being concerned with process and procedure and the vetting process of this science... it's not different that what a company asked of it's employees... accuracy.

83 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:42:34pm

But...but they are "Scientists" how could they be wrong?

If they are wrong then maybe all science is wrong, or at least the parts that seem to disagree with the bible. Ivory towers...liberals...socialism...elitests...absolutely not "Real Americans©"

/Dontcha know that the devil is trying to mislead you?

84 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:42:56pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

lol of course I do. Its a meaningless question tho'. You were certainly questioning the validity of the paper, just carefully.

I guess thats the pattern tho': "I believe in AGW, I just have the following list of concerns..."

85 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:43:08pm

re: #71 Aceofwhat?

Bleh. One piece of fraud in a document with 900 pieces of more accurate items? What would be the point? This is a mistake + blustering by Hasnain + lack of cojones by Pachauri, = bigger mistake than it should have been, imho. Seems silly to call it fraud, though. There's no benefit, given that this particular claim was unnecessary to make the larger point.

No, you missed my point. The fraud is not the mistake of including this in the IPCC AR4, that was a minor point and understandable. The fraud was in the cover up in which Dr. Hasnain, the man whose speculation was used, went to work for IPCC Chairman Pachauri's TERI institute and use exactly this false claim of the glaciers disappearing by 2035 as the basis for attracting millions in funding and as a major source of alarmism in India.

86 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:43:19pm

And man, you really need some patience!

87 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:45:07pm

I have NO problem questioning the IPCC's processes, vetting or science... and it appears neither do they...

It has, however, recently come to our attention that a paragraph in the 938-page Working Group II contribution to the underlying assessment2 refers to poorly substantiated estimates of rate of recession and date for the disappearance of Himalayan glaciers. In drafting the paragraph in question, the clear and well-established standards of evidence, required by the IPCC procedures, were not applied properly.

The Chair, Vice-Chairs, and Co-chairs of the IPCC regret the poor application of well-established IPCC procedures in this instance. This episode demonstrates that the quality of the assessment
depends on absolute adherence to the IPCC standards, including thorough review of “the quality and validity of each source before incorporating results from the source into an IPCC Report” 3. We
reaffirm our strong commitment to ensuring this level of performance.

They are being honest about this mistake. Anyone suggest we call them deniers?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

88 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:45:31pm

re: #81 RandomUK

sheesh. i wanted the links because i expected to have read them already, not because i'm commenting blithely about a subject that is brand new to me. go assume you're among the uneducated somewhere else. if you want to play here, leave your presumptions at the door.

89 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:45:33pm

... oh lord. You don't see that very often (re: the football game)

90 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:45:34pm

re: #84 windsagio

lol of course I do. Its a meaningless question tho'. You were certainly questioning the validity of the paper, just carefully.

I guess thats the pattern tho': "I believe in AGW, I just have the following list of concerns..."

Than you Windbag for reading my mind.

91 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:46:04pm

Oops, almost forgot the links for the GISS selective use of temperature stations.

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

It is well-explained in the video at [Link: www.kusi.com...] (although it is worth watching the whole thing at [Link: www.kusi.com...] if you really do need the background).

92 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:46:25pm

re: #85 Bagua

So the sole reason he was granted funding was that claim?

Can you provide any support for that contention?

93 ulmsey123  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:46:35pm

Fill up an ice cube tray. Put it in the freezer. Check back in three months. The ice will have gotten smaller. But if the freezer never turned off, where did the ice go???
There are a lot of factors involved with the advance and retreat of glaciers. Are the world's glaciers receding? You bet. Go to the top of Garret Mountain in Paterson NJ. There used to be hundreds of feet of ice on top of it. There are rocks there that were dragged from Canada.
The glaciers are gone. Is that bad? One day they may be back. Most likely in a few thousand years.

I have a hunch that this IPCC error is just the tip of the iceberg. :-)

I'm going to watch the Jets and the Colts now. The NFL network replayed Superbowl 3 last night. Great game.

94 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:46:39pm

re: #86 RandomUK

And man, you really need some patience!

i have no problem standing corrected about your providing the links. prepare to be corrected about the integrity of their work...

95 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:47:14pm

Oy vey.

96 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:47:28pm

Note: this revelation has nothing to do with proving or disproving AGW. What it addresses is the reliability of the IPCC in informing the world about AGW and the credibility of the UN's IPCC and its chairman.

97 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:47:58pm

re: #85 Bagua

No, you missed my point. The fraud is not the mistake of including this in the IPCC AR4, that was a minor point and understandable. The fraud was in the cover up in which Dr. Hasnain, the man whose speculation was used, went to work for IPCC Chairman Pachauri's TERI institute and use exactly this false claim of the glaciers disappearing by 2035 as the basis for attracting millions in funding and as a major source of alarmism in India.

oic. sorry, and thanks for the clarification.

98 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:01pm

Aceofwhat

I was kind of assuming that anyone who thought themselves qualified to comment about climate change would have kept themselves up-to-date and would know what I was talking about, so no links were needed. You asked, I provided. I have no idea what rhetorical twists you are indulging in or are expecting from me, but I am playing this pretty straight.

99 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:17pm

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

I have NO problem questioning the IPCC's processes, vetting or science... and it appears neither do they...

They are being honest about this mistake.

Of course they are. Believe it or not, they're scientists who want to get it right.

100 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:18pm

re: #80 Aceofwhat?

Absolutely. At risk of seemingly being played or feeding the trolls I like to extend an offer to listen to available facts. At worst I appear naive. At best I get to learn something, or somebody gets the chance to step up and support their point.

But what I am losing patience for is the perfect as a weapon to stop progress. This is what holds back nearly all the alternative energy technologies. Nuclear, wind and solar farms, hydrothermal, all take hits from environmental groups. Ever seen a lead, nickel or lithium mine? Pretty ugly. Good luck making batteries without those metals. Good luck making solar work out at night without storage batteries.

Seriously, this is a dastardly tactic, obstructionist at its core.

101 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:34pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

- for egregious insult.

Its a common pattern on here. And believe me, I'm not just singling you out.

To some degree, I feel peoples pain. It'd be really tough to be anti-AGW on this blog.

102 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:49pm

re: #93 ulmsey123

Fill up an ice cube tray. Put it in the freezer. Check back in three months. The ice will have gotten smaller. But if the freezer never turned off, where did the ice go???

It sublimated.

I have a hunch that this IPCC error is just the tip of the iceberg. :-)

Strangely, I feel the world's glaciologists may be a better source to listen to than someone who thinks that sublimation is a mystery.

103 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:48:51pm

re: #64 Bagua

Your bias is showing again, never in the entire history of mankind has a subordinate released controversial predictions contrary to his mentors desires. Since this is the first time that this has ever happened in the entire history of humanity it obviously shows that a giant multinational conspiracy exists to promote global warming theory...

Uhh, yeah whatever...

///sigh...

104 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:49:31pm

re: #96 Bagua

Note: this revelation has nothing to do with proving or disproving AGW. What it addresses is the reliability of the IPCC in informing the world about AGW and the credibility of the UN's IPCC and its chairman.

How come that's so hard for some people to agree with?

105 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:50:37pm

re: #101 windsagio

- for egregious insult.

Its a common pattern on here. And believe me, I'm not just singling you out.

To some degree, I feel peoples pain. It'd be really tough to be anti-AGW on this blog.

Nope, I'm pro-accurate process.

106 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:51:15pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

/Well of course you'd say that :p

107 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:51:44pm

re: #98 RandomUK

Aceofwhat

I was kind of assuming that anyone who thought themselves qualified to comment about climate change would have kept themselves up-to-date and would know what I was talking about, so no links were needed. You asked, I provided. I have no idea what rhetorical twists you are indulging in or are expecting from me, but I am playing this pretty straight.

Dude. Sources matter. I'll take your word as "evidence" the day...actually, there is no day. Link like the rest of us so that we can evaluate your sources for yourself.

108 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:52:47pm

re: #106 windsagio

/Well of course you'd say that :p

Yawn.

109 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:52:55pm

re: #92 Obdicut

So the sole reason he was granted funding was that claim?

Can you provide any support for that contention?

Why would I support a contention I never made? You said 'sole' reason, I did not.

110 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:52:59pm

re: #107 Aceofwhat?

Dude. Sources matter. I'll take your word as "evidence" the day...actually, there is no day. Link like the rest of us so that we can evaluate your sources for yourself.

ourselves. pimf.

111 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:53:42pm

Ace

And the comment about patience was relating to your comment "i asked too. nada...which is telling. usually when people care about a point, they stick around to help support it, dontcha think?". I came back. I don't hang around here like a stalker.

Charles

No chip. This site is not important enough to me to warrant the merest crumb of potato. This is a comment forum, a discussion, not a thing to blow out of proportion. See above.

112 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:54:25pm

re: #109 Bagua

Okay. Can you please provide any support for your contention that he used 'exactly this false claim as the basis for attracting millions in funding'?

113 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:54:50pm

re: #111 RandomUK

Do note that being an ass doesn't help one's position.

114 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:54:59pm

re: #111 RandomUK

Boy oh boy, are you in love with you!

115 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:55:21pm

Aceofwhat

My source, in the end, is GISS and the CRU, the Russian government etc. However the knowledge is in my head. In my degree I was expected to know stuff even if the source was not in front of me, as the internet was not at the time convenient in the hills of Greece.

116 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:55:26pm

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

eeh, I tried to put it lightly, because its hard not to look hyper-aggressive.

The point is, that the whole technique I'm talking about relies on exactly that claim. Even if I play nice, and agree that you're not doing that at all, the technique sure is around.

117 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:56:19pm

Obdicut

??? Wow. That is such a weird post. It bears no relation to anything anyone has said. You don't even know me

118 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:56:33pm

re: #111 RandomUK

Ace

And the comment about patience was relating to your comment "i asked too. nada...which is telling. usually when people care about a point, they stick around to help support it, dontcha think?". I came back. I don't hang around here like a stalker.

i know. i posted afterwards that i stood corrected. embrace literacy, trou de cul.

119 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:56:45pm

re: #112 Obdicut

Okay. Can you please provide any support for your contention that he used 'exactly this false claim as the basis for attracting millions in funding'?

I'd be happy to do that, and thank your for rephrasing your question, give me a few minutes to put together a couple of quotes and links for you my friend.

120 The Curmudgeon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:58:26pm

I, for one, am doing my part. I've turned down the temperature setting of my refrigerator a couple of degrees. Ain't gonna be no warming around here!

121 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:58:29pm

RandomUK's # of comments = # -karma.

122 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:58:58pm

re: #115 RandomUK

Aceofwhat

My source, in the end, is GISS and the CRU, the Russian government etc. However the knowledge is in my head. In my degree I was expected to know stuff even if the source was not in front of me, as the internet was not at the time convenient in the hills of Greece.

Do note that i for one minute don't believe that you are more intelligent than me. Nor do i think that i can persuade you that i am more intelligent than you. Rather, i will provide links or instructions to information that i cite so that you don't have to take my word for it. You will do the same. It's not rocket science.

123 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:59:20pm

re: #111 RandomUK

No chip. This site is not important enough to me to warrant the merest crumb of potato. This is a comment forum, a discussion, not a thing to blow out of proportion. See above.

It must be just me, but when someone comes blustering in, yelling "are you going to ban me now like they said you would at this site where everybody hates you!" -- I tend to interpret that as a "chip on the shoulder" moment.

Maybe the saying has a different meaning in the UK.

124 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:59:47pm

Ace

And that means you are not impatient (or that I am illiterate) in what system of logic?

125 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:59:56pm

re: #116 windsagio

eeh, I tried to put it lightly, because its hard not to look hyper-aggressive.

The point is, that the whole technique I'm talking about relies on exactly that claim. Even if I play nice, and agree that you're not doing that at all, the technique sure is around.

I really don't care how you play, nice or otherwise. I'm not one of your "can't we all get along, bible thumping, pansy-asses" that needs your approval or you gentleness.

Yep, I guess people will try to use this to just dismiss climate change whole-clothed... that's not right, but that's not what I am doing, and I really don't care if you understand that or not.

Carry on...

126 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:00:22pm

Ace

That is knowledge, not intelligence

127 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:00:46pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

Hi, Walter, there was a LOST thread yesterday.

128 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:01:10pm

Note that I was expecting you to know what I was talking about, I was specifically expecting you to be as knowledgeable as I am.

129 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:01:14pm

re: #100 Rightwingconspirator

Absolutely. At risk of seemingly being played or feeding the trolls I like to extend an offer to listen to available facts. At worst I appear naive. At best I get to learn something, or somebody gets the chance to step up and support their point.

I completely agree

130 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:01:37pm

re: #128 RandomUK

Do get over yourself, Captain You Planet.

131 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:01:54pm

Charles

Since when was putting an aside in a P.S. yelling?

132 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:02:44pm

Varek

What? Don't people have opinions and knowledge where you come from?

133 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:02:50pm

re: #124 RandomUK

Ace

And that means you are not impatient (or that I am illiterate) in what system of logic?

i was impatient, i agree, so i wrote that i stood corrected. do we need a system of logic to parse that sentence, or are we past this now?

mere de dieu...

134 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:03:26pm

re: #132 RandomUK

Gone before comment 160, I suspect.

135 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:03:46pm

re: #127 prairiefire

Hi, Walter, there was a LOST thread yesterday.

Correction, Friday evening.

136 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:04:03pm

re: #127 prairiefire

Hi, Walter, there was a LOST thread yesterday.

Yes, I saw that video about a week ago. I was at work, missed the thread. I like the line in the video (paraphrasing) "the fans find out the plane never even took off."

137 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:04:20pm

re: #128 RandomUK

Note that I was expecting you to know what I was talking about, I was specifically expecting you to be as knowledgeable as I am.

no, you expected telepathy when i asked for links. how was i supposed to know you were supersmartygeniuspants in a bottle?

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:04:37pm

Speaking of frozen... My wife bought a Marie Callendar coconut cream pie for me. Been thawing for two hours... still solid as a stone. It could use a little AGW about right now.

139 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:05:15pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Try some APW, and sit on it.

140 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:05:19pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of frozen... My wife bought a Marie Callendar coconut cream pie for me. Been thawing for two hours... still solid as a stone. It could use a little AGW about right now.

Two words.
Microwave. Defrost.
;)

141 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:05:48pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of frozen... My wife bought a Marie Callendar coconut cream pie for me. Been thawing for two hours... still solid as a stone. It could use a little AGW about right now.

Put it in a Martini.

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:06:02pm

re: #128 RandomUK

Hey, the "poking badger with a spoon"?... that's Eddie Izzard?

143 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:06:06pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of frozen... My wife bought a Marie Callendar coconut cream pie for me. Been thawing for two hours... still solid as a stone. It could use a little AGW about right now.

smash it with a hammer & eat it in little pieces...

144 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:06:15pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

I gave a friend the "Lost" board game for Christmas. She started reading the directions and they were about as clear as the plot.

145 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:06:40pm

re: #144 prairiefire

I gave a friend the "Lost" board game for Christmas. She started reading the directions and they were about as clear as the plot.

The plot is clear.

146 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:06:59pm

Ace

??? I posted links when you asked ???

I didn't know there was some rule here about posting links to things that are common knowledge to anyone well-informed on the subject at discussion.

I don't often come here, and am not sure I will bother returning. Wow, Patterico's lot might have been wrong about rapid banning, but they were right about the unfriendly cliquieness and ad hominem comments about those disagreeing with the central post.

147 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:07:29pm

re: #144 prairiefire

I gave a friend the "Lost" board game for Christmas. She started reading the directions and they were about as clear as the plot.

That's cruel... how can you have a LOST board game when you don't even know where the "game" is going... that's sick.

148 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:07:45pm

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

Ok.

149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:07:46pm

re: #146 RandomUK

Before you go. Eddie Izzard?

150 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:00pm

P.S. Your retraction does not help me unless I am psychic when it only comes when I am already commenting on your impatience. That was my point! It seems you are the one expecting ESP.

151 Summer Seale  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:07pm

Hi everyone, it's Sarah!

I'm just here on a quick tour to tell you all something important.

Now, a lot of you may be angry and upset and seriously worried about this report that the Charles guy posted at his web blog named after some sort of Green Bay Packers NFL team or something. I forgot the name but I've read all of it!

You might be worried that he keeps pointing out that glaciers are retreating.

"Is it true?" you might be asking?

You betcha it isn't!

I'll have to explain something now that is a bit complicated, but just bear with me.

You see, coming from Alass-ka like I do, I can tell you there's no shortage of snow and ice! I should know because I hunt moose out in it and, you know, it's still pretty cold up there!

But scientists are trying to tell us otherwise. Scientists are trying to tell us that there's no more snow! But I know different.

You see, scientists try to tell us lots of weird things because they don't believe in God. We know different though, don't we? You betcha!

See, it says that the Earth is flat. It has four corners and is suspended in the heavens. And the way it works is, the sun moves around the edges in a big square sweep. That's what makes everything the way it is. That's why sometimes there's snow and sometimes there isn't! It's pretty clear to me. Alass-ka is more to the center of things, which is also another reason why I'm special, so it has less warmth and more snow!

Now, scientists are trying to tell us that the sun is moving towards the center and baking us all alive, but we know that's not true! How can it be true? After all, it doesn't mention anything about the sun moving in towards the earth in the Bible, does it? No, it doesn't.

That's where some of this confusion seems to come from. Well, I'm here to tell you that Alass-ka is just fine and snowy the same way that God created it six thousand years ago. And scientists can't tell you different because they don't have the power to move the sun - which they clearly admit! I know because I've read all their newspapers and they don't mention that kind of Godly power anywhere. So there's nothing to worry about.

Anyway, I thought I'd clear that up for you because I know how those scientists can try to confuse people with silly ideas we all know aren't true. But they're pretty devious! So I just wanted to shine the light of truth on ya'll.

Anyway, thanks for listening!

Sarah Palin.

152 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:16pm

re: #146 RandomUK

Again:

Can you explain why you believe more than 90% of the world's climatologists to be in error or involved in a conspiracy?

153 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:20pm

re: #146 RandomUK

Do not pass go, do not collect you martyr cookie.

154 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:34pm

re: #150 RandomUK

Is your avatar related to Eddie Izzard?

155 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:08:40pm

FBV

Errrmmm, yes? Never met him personally, but I know one or two who did and he is supposed to be quite pleasant.

156 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:10:08pm

He's the hottest transvestite in the world. And those legs! After his charity runs, they should make wax molds of them.

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:10:10pm

re: #155 RandomUK

It was in his "Dressed to Kill" show.

Trying to think of an original sin.

158 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:11:00pm

Varek

What? Is there no sense of humour at all in this place? I post a light-hearted comment about the possibility of being banned, occasioned by a thread on another site. I have no wish to be banned. I don't really care one way or the other, especially after the bizarre development of this discussion.

159 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:11:14pm

re: #156 prairiefire

He's the hottest transvestite in the world. And those legs! After his charity runs, they should make wax molds of them.

You forgot the 'Executive'!
;)

160 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:11:26pm

FBV

Yes! Sorry, had forgotten my Avatar. Well spotted!

161 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:11:43pm

re: #146 RandomUK

Ace

??? I posted links when you asked ???

I didn't know there was some rule here about posting links to things that are common knowledge to anyone well-informed on the subject at discussion.

I don't often come here, and am not sure I will bother returning. Wow, Patterico's lot might have been wrong about rapid banning, but they were right about the unfriendly cliquieness and ad hominem comments about those disagreeing with the central post.

Dear Lord have mercy. What do you think i stood corrected about? the fact that you'd return with links, wondrous one. stop pretending that i didn't make that comment in honesty.

and the links you posted are common knowledge to anyone well-informed in poor science. Steve McIntyre? Really? give me a break.

and don't get me started about ad hominem. i asked for links and your very next post detailed my complete ignorance, as if the one logically followed the other. quit crying.

162 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:12:51pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Who is the "Executive"?

163 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:13:18pm

re: #158 RandomUK

Varek

What? Is there no sense of humour at all in this place? I post a light-hearted comment about the possibility of being banned, occasioned by a thread on another site. I have no wish to be banned. I don't really care one way or the other, especially after the bizarre development of this discussion.

It's often hard to determine if someone is joking or being a troll if they have not established any kind of reputation. If you have posted for a bit before getting in people's faces, you probably wouldn't be down-dinged so much. But nobody knows you, so you're just coming off as a dick.

164 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:13:19pm

re: #162 prairiefire

He's also the 'Action'.

/sorry, can't help myself.

165 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:13:30pm

Yep, but by the time you stood corrected I was already commenting on your impatience. I don't know how to delete it! Can we just drop the procedural nonsense, and discuss what actually has been written rather than what we have each said about what I should have written and when?

166 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:13:44pm

re: #165 RandomUK

Yep, but by the time you stood corrected I was already commenting on your impatience. I don't know how to delete it! Can we just drop the procedural nonsense, and discuss what actually has been written rather than what we have each said about what I should have written and when?

yes, thank you.

167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:13:47pm

re: #146 RandomUK

Really not "cliquey" here.

People who dive in fists first the first time, generally are not received well. I haven't read back through the thread, and am not going to. Introduce yourself. Sit around with us and chat. You might make some friends.

Then swing away.

People who come in at first fighting? Just look like people who came here looking for a fight.

Chill, and chat...

168 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:14:13pm

re: #165 RandomUK

Sure. How about we discuss why you believe that more than 90% of the world's climatologists are in error or involved in a conspiracy. You up to that?

169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:15:02pm

re: #162 prairiefire

Who is the "Executive"?

Eddie is an "Executive Transvestite".

170 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:15:25pm

there is a quote button...makes a post more understandable

171 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:15:31pm

re: #165 RandomUK

Yep, but by the time you stood corrected I was already commenting on your impatience. I don't know how to delete it! Can we just drop the procedural nonsense, and discuss what actually has been written rather than what we have each said about what I should have written and when?

So one of your links was to climateaudit. Charles here (and the rest of us in our own random ways) has posted a veritable library about Steve McIntyre. I have tremendous doubts about the validity of your sources when climateaudit is one of them. I don't like painting with too broad of a brush...but it's tempting...must resist...

172 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:15:42pm

Soap_man

Might be trans-Atlantic cultural differences. I mostly post on UK-dominated forums, although I read quite a few US blogs. Light-hearted banter is almost universal outside of the left-wing political ones.

173 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:16:23pm

re: #168 Obdicut

Sure. How about we discuss why you believe that more than 90% of the world's climatologists are in error or involved in a conspiracy. You up to that?

RandomUK - Obdicut is asking a great question. Time to show off the Earth Sciences degree...

174 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:16:49pm

re: #172 RandomUK

You don't find my snarkiness 'light hearted'?
:(
...
:)

175 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:17:09pm

the Colts are getting killed right now...imagine that

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:17:27pm

OT... The Jets are fucking HAMMERING the Colts.

Poor Hoops.

177 TheMatrix31  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:17:28pm

re: #172 RandomUK

I don't really care what you're saying content-wise, whatever...

Just use the quote or reply function---it's what its there for.

178 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:17:46pm

re: #175 albusteve

the Colts are getting killed right now...imagine that

Hmm, some friends of mine are Colts fans...muhahaha!

179 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:18:43pm

re: #175 albusteve

the Colts are getting killed right now...imagine that

wow, just wow...

180 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:18:46pm

re: #176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... The Jets are fucking HAMMERING the Colts.

Poor Hoops.

Is that the Colts who have won like a zillion games in a row?

181 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:18:48pm

re: #174 Varek Raith

Don't you know, humor is an exclusively rightwing phenomenon! The further right you lean, the funnier you are ;)

182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:19:46pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Your thinking of the wrong Colts.
/

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:20:58pm

re: #175 albusteve

the Colts are getting killed right now...imagine that

Just occurred to me. The Jets are the team that made the playoffs because the Colts gave them a free win. Played the scrubs protecting the stars.

Whoa.

184 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:20:58pm

re: #182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Your thinking of the wrong Colts.
/

Can I get a serious answer around here. I don't keep up with football, but wasn't it the Colts who has won like every game in a row, like since creation or something?

If you don't know the answer, does anyone?

185 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:09pm

Here is the page from the EU seventh Framework Programme highlighting the false 2035 claim

Image

This led to a conference sponsored by the EU were Dr. Pachauri also spoke and the false claim was further retailed.

Here is the Powerpoint presentation in which slide #5 demonstrates the false claim was central to the appeal for grant money and kicked off the EU's High Noon project.

The 3 million euro grant was awarded six days later to Pachauri and Hasnain via TERI, of which Pachauri is the Director General and Hasnain had become an employee.

186 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:21pm

re: various football comments

Looks like the Jets are gonna beat the spread, for sure >>

A few lucky New Yorkers might make a bank on this one

187 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:38pm

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just occurred to me. The Jets are the team that made the playoffs because the Colts gave them a free win. Played the scrubs protecting the stars.

Whoa.

that fake running play shoulda been another TD...I love that play, the Cowboys used to run it with Robert Newhouse back in the day

188 austin_blue  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:45pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

Can I get a serious answer around here. I don't keep up with football, but wasn't it the Colts who has won like every game in a row, like since creation or something?

If you don't know the answer, does anyone?

They started this year fourteen and 0.

189 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:48pm

re: #181 windsagio

Don't you know, humor is an exclusively rightwing phenomenon! The further right you lean, the funnier you are ;)

See, conservative are funny...

“It’s a disappointment,” Brazile also told King. “It hurts like hell. I can’t tell you how much it hurts. But, it’s also a gift. If we learn the lessons to get back to the basics, to deliver for the American people the change we promised them in 2008.”

“Well, maybe we can find more under the tree,” Bill Bennett, the host of conservative talk show “Morning in America,” said in response to Brazile. “If that’s the gift, then we want to keep on giving,” the conservative commentator added.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

190 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:22:56pm

re: #186 windsagio

Looks like the Jets are gonna beat the spread, for sure >>

A few lucky New Yorkers might make a bank on this one

hehehe...

191 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:23:02pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

Can I get a serious answer around here. I don't keep up with football, but wasn't it the Colts who has won like every game in a row, like since creation or something?

If you don't know the answer, does anyone?

yes, those guys

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:23:11pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

The Colts went 14-0. Then stopped playing their big guns. Their first loss was to the Jets. Which allowed the Jets to make the playoffs.

Now, unless the Colts can get their stuff together, the "shouldn't even be in the playoffs" Jets are going to send their benefactors home.

193 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:23:18pm

re: #181 windsagio

Don't you know, humor is an exclusively rightwing phenomenon! The further right you lean, the funnier you are ;)

Thus proving Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Che (he had a revolution and all I got was a t-shirt) were left wing phenomena. Those dudes were not funny.

194 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:23:37pm

re: #186 windsagio

Looks like the Jets are gonna beat the spread, for sure >>

A few lucky New Yorkers might make a bank on this one

long way to go...Manning can kill you fast

195 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:03pm

re: #172 RandomUK

Soap_man

Might be trans-Atlantic cultural differences. I mostly post on UK-dominated forums, although I read quite a few US blogs. Light-hearted banter is almost universal outside of the left-wing political ones.

Light-hearted banter is fine. I can't speak for anyone else, but if that really is your intention, then that's fine with me.

Hit the reset button. If you are trying to joke and it is taken as aggression, just clarify it. A :) goes a long way. But if aggression is your attention, it's probably best to just take it elsewhere.

196 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:05pm

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Colts went 14-0. Then stopped playing their big guns. Their first loss was to the Jets. Which allowed the Jets to make the playoffs.

Now, unless the Colts can get their stuff together, the "shouldn't even be in the playoffs" Jets are going to send their benefactors home.

New Yorkers love to visit Miami this time of year...

197 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:25pm

re: #185 Bagua

Here is the page from the EU seventh Framework Programme highlighting the false 2035 claim

Image

This led to a conference sponsored by the EU were Dr. Pachauri also spoke and the false claim was further retailed.

Here is the Powerpoint presentation in which slide #5 demonstrates the false claim was central to the appeal for grant money and kicked off the EU's High Noon project.

The 3 million euro grant was awarded six days later to Pachauri and Hasnain via TERI, of which Pachauri is the Director General and Hasnain had become an employee.

And this proves what?

198 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:48pm

re: #196 brookly red

New Yorkers love to visit Miami this time of year...

blue haired old ladies

199 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #194 albusteve

long way to go...Manning can kill you fast

he has to be able to be standing to that...

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:24:54pm

re: #194 albusteve

long way to go...Manning can kill you fast

That's for sure. Peyton can get a bunch of points on the board really fast. I'm guessing the Colts aren't going to give up.

201 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:25:53pm

The last football game I ever got escited about was the Jets/Colts superbowl game in 1969. My two favorite teams made the finals, and it was a win/win situation for me...

202 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:26:00pm

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's for sure. Peyton can get a bunch of points on the board really fast. I'm guessing the Colts aren't going to give up.

I wonder if Hoops will show up after the game. Win or lose, I'm sure he/she will be plenty drunk.

203 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:26:39pm

Here is the EU announcing the 3 million euro grant to Pachauri's TERI six days after the false 2035 claim was presented.

204 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:26:43pm

anybody know what the book is on this game?...or the NFC game?

205 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:26:44pm

re: #190 brookly red

do your blog-buddies get a cut? >

>
206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:27:11pm

re: #194 albusteve

long way to go...Manning can kill you fast

You mean like that?

207 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:27:17pm

re: #205 windsagio

do your blog-buddies get a cut? >>

snikt...

208 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:27:41pm

re: #204 albusteve

I just looked it up, its Indianapolis by 8, the other was Vikings by 3 I think, I'll check again.

209 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:27:41pm

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You mean like that?

And that.

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #209 Soap_Man

He'll be considered the best ever at some point.

211 albusteve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #208 windsagio

I just looked it up, its Indianapolis by 8, the other was Vikings by 3 I think, I'll check again.

8 isn't enough for me

212 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

And this proves what?

This proves that the false 2035 claim was used to secure millions of dollars in funding for the organisation headed by the IPCC Chairman Pachauri.

213 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #185 Bagua

Um, slide 5 and that 'page' are the same thing, you know.

Are you going to be sourcing your claims about the grants, and the rather odd contention that the grants were awarded on the basis of this powerpoint?

214 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:28:44pm

Obdicut

It depends what you mean by "climatologist".

As a discipline this subject is quite new, and it is also self-selecting. Mainly believers want to go into it, only believers would be selected for places and only believers can get funding, as the money is dominated by governments and NGOs who have a pro-AGW agenda. The community is also dominated by 42 or 43 hard-core believers, who were involved in the CRU scandal and particularly in picking who to publish; academia is a publish-or-die world, there is no money for those without names on papers. So yes, of those I probably disagree with most (do you have a citation for 90%?), but with sound reasoning, and in agreement remember with some highly-reputed climatologists, the other 10% or however many apostates there are.

I come from a background of palaeoclimatology (as one part of Earth Sciences) and of physics, with some chemistry and maths thrown into the mix. In these disciplines I agree with the bulk of those who have looked into climate or studies it to any serious degree. There are literally thousands of serious researchers who have said that this is junk science, those most closely involved in climate or atmospheric research have risked their careers to say so. The statisticians have been especially critical of the climatologists, who have made mistakes I would have been called out for in my first year (freshman year?).

Climatologists rely on much other science. They often have this wrong according to specialists in those disciplines. Classic example is the expert on tree-ring growth who wrote to Phil Jones to point out that tree rings are not good temperature proxies (one of the CRU emails). They also rely on computer models that programmers and computer scientists say are deeply flawed (as does their own programmer in the CRU leak).

215 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:02pm

Breakfast at Tiffany's is on TCM.

216 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:03pm

re: #211 albusteve

oops, second one is Saints by 3.5.

217 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:13pm

What does football have to do with "Re: That Himalayan Glacier Prediction Error?"

218 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:39pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Arguing about AGW is old, the game is happening right now :)

219 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:41pm

I was up at 2am last year and caught the Super Bowl on German TV. Without commercials. Completely wierd, they must've gotten the rights for free from the NFL to promote American football over there (the Europan Fottball league has since tanked)

But it was odd seeing long pan shots of the stadium and very unselfcounscious players stretching, spitting gatorade and scratching themselves while America was getting bombarded with five-million-dollar-a-minute commercials.

220 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:29:47pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

What does football have to do with "Re: That Himalayan Glacier Prediction Error?"

/that experts don't know shit?

221 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:30:15pm

re: #214 RandomUK

Okay. So you believe in a conspiracy theory involving every world government.

Thanks for letting me know. I'm afraid I have difficultly taking your claims of authority and persecution seriously.

You might want to read this site: You're pushing all its buttons. [Link: www.skepticalscience.com...]

222 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:30:19pm

re: #210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He'll be considered the best ever at some point.

No doubt. In my mind, he is already in the top 10 all time, maybe top 5. Give him a few more years and the top spot will be all his.

223 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:30:36pm

Soccer fans would maintain that American football is glacially slow-moving

224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:30:37pm

re: #215 MandyManners

When my daughter puts her hair up and puts on the big sunglasses, she has a total Holly Golightly thing going on.

I'm totally serious.

225 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:30:55pm

re: #212 Bagua

This proves that the false 2035 claim was used to secure millions of dollars in funding for the organisation headed by the IPCC Chairman Pachauri.

You don't say :)

226 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #223 ralphieboy

Soccer fans would maintain that American football is glacially slow-moving

Too bad they are wrong and their sport is stupid. :)

227 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:31:22pm

Oh, P.S. Obdicut

There is no democracy in science. 99% of geologists did not believe in plate techtonics until the 1960s. That didn't stop the 1904 Earthquake in SF!

228 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:31:40pm

re: #223 ralphieboy

Lol, sure you wanna get into that? >>

re: #226 Soap_Man

Too bad they are wrong and their sport is stupid. :)

see?!

229 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:32:19pm

re: #212 Bagua

This proves that the false 2035 claim was used to secure millions of dollars in funding for the organisation headed by the IPCC Chairman Pachauri.

Think Pachauri wears Patchouli?

230 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:32:26pm

re: #227 RandomUK

I'd dispute that 99% figure, but the reason that they didn't believe in plate tectonics was that they had no primary evidence for it. As soon as the evidence started piling up, scientists got on board with the theory.

We have an immense wealth of evidence for AGW. The situation is not in the least bit comparable.

231 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:32:26pm

re: #228 windsagio

Lol, sure you wanna get into that? >>

re: #226 Soap_Man

see?!

I tried to gain an appreciation for soccer while livein over here in Europe and failed

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:32:52pm

re: #226 Soap_Man

Amen, my brutha...

233 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:33:09pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Okay. So you believe in a conspiracy theory involving every world government.
Thanks for letting me know. I'm afraid I have difficultly taking your claims of authority and persecution seriously.

You might want to read this site: You're pushing all its buttons. [Link:

234 windsagio  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:33:33pm

re: #231 ralphieboy

I'll say its a weird sport. Nonstop action, and yet somehow still slow.

When I was young and foolish I hated football. I didn't come around 'till I went to college and had a team to root for. It makes a huge difference :)

235 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:33:35pm

re: #224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When my daughter puts her hair up and puts on the big sunglasses, she has a total Holly Golightly thing going on.

I'm totally serious.

It's the neck.

236 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #214 RandomUK

"critical of the climatologists, who have made mistakes I would have been called out for in my first year (freshman year?)."

An up ding for you on this part of your statement...

237 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:34:02pm

While we're all hanging out, here's some CS Lewis for you, one that i wish the loonies who threaten to overtake the republican party would bear in mind:

One is sometimes (not often) glad not to be a great theologian; one might easily mistake it for being a good Christian. ... When the subject is sacred, proud and clever people may come to think that the ousiders who don't know it are not merely inferior to them in skill but lower in God's eyes...As this pride increases, the "subject" or study which confers such privilege will grow more and more complicated, the list of things forbidden will increase, till to get through a single day without supposed sin becomes like an elaborate step-dance, and this horrible network breeds self-righteousness in some and haunting anxiety in others.

Meanwhile the "weightier matters of the Law", righteousness itself, shrinks into insignificance under this vast overgrowth, so that the legalists strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

I love that guy.

238 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:34:09pm

re: #213 Obdicut

Um, slide 5 and that 'page' are the same thing, you know.

Are you going to be sourcing your claims about the grants, and the rather odd contention that the grants were awarded on the basis of this powerpoint?

That is the actual powerpoint used at the conference, far from "odd" it is clear.

239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:34:21pm

re: #235 MandyManners

Like I said, total.

240 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:34:22pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Okay. So you believe in a conspiracy theory involving every world government.
Thanks for letting me know. I'm afraid I have difficultly taking your claims of authority and persecution seriously.

You might want to read this site: You're pushing all its buttons. [Link:

241 brookly red  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:35:13pm

half time = beer run...

242 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:35:46pm

re: #238 Bagua

Given that this was included in the report, I have no idea why you think showing that it was presented at a conference is in any way new information.

What I am asking you to do is to provide evidence of the grants that you say were assigned, and to connect them to the particular claim about the glaciers. Can you do so, or not?

re: #240 MandyManners

I think the embedded link may be messing you up, Mandy.

243 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:35:55pm

re: #234 windsagio

I'll say its a weird sport. Nonstop action, and yet somehow still slow.

When I was young and foolish I hated football. I didn't come around 'till I went to college and had a team to root for. It makes a huge difference :)

I was in bed sick with tonsilitis during the 1990 World Cup and decided I would try and learn to appreciate some of the finest teams in the world playing each other.

most of the games ended in a tie and were decided by penalty kicks, which was about the only aspect of the game i found the least bit exciting.

And wondered why they didn't just cut out the 90 minutes of pointless running back and fort and just get right to the penalty kicks...

244 MandyManners  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:36:12pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Where does he say that he believes in a conspiracy theory involving every world government?

245 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:36:21pm

re: #231 ralphieboy

I tried to gain an appreciation for soccer while livein over here in Europe and failed

A lot of people ask me how I could like hockey so much while disliking soccer. "Hockey is soccer on ice, so how could you love one and hate the other?" my Real Madrid fan friend says.

It's just too slow. I liked playing soccer as a kid (goalie, sometimes defense), I just can't watch it. A 1-0 soccer game has very little action to me, while a 1-0 hockey game is exciting. Just a personal thing.

246 Racer X  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:36:29pm

Safari - wonky
Firefox - wonky

Everything is way too slow. Cleared cache, reload, reset, reboot, refilled my beer. I've tried everything.

Other sites work just fine.

Go Jets!

247 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:36:47pm

Obdicut

No, I distrust government because every system ends up by self-perpetuation, and this helps them.

However the conspiracy is in the scientists, who genuinely (sort of) believe what they are saying. It is very clear from the leaked CRU emails. There is no doubt from them that there were in fact two conspiracies, one to corrupt peer review and one to hide their data and methods. They believe in AGW, but did over-emphasise it, and conspired to do so and to cover up that. In fact the only AGW left was in many cases the over-emphasis. Reason had an article recently (to which I really don't have the link, but you should be able to find it at Reason Magazine online) about the only study known to have looked at how scientists deal with unexpected results. Their minds tend to filter them out, unless they are forced to discuss them with people who don't know why they are filtering them out. In this case I think it got to the level of semi-concious filtering (the emails clearly show it).

248 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:37:24pm

Wow.

249 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:37:29pm

re: #244 MandyManners

Where does he say that he believes in a conspiracy theory involving every world government?

As in moist cases, Obdicut resorts to "words in mouth" syndrome thinking that no one will recognize the tactic... ding, ding, ding... Obdicut looses again.

250 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:37:36pm

re: #245 Soap_Man

A lot of people ask me how I could like hockey so much while disliking soccer. "Hockey is soccer on ice, so how could you love one and hate the other?" my Real Madrid fan friend says.

It's just too slow. I liked playing soccer as a kid (goalie, sometimes defense), I just can't watch it. A 1-0 soccer game has very little action to me, while a 1-0 hockey game is exciting. Just a personal thing.


I like Olympic hockey, cannot stand NHL, which has grown to be more like WWF on skates

251 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:39:00pm

re: #214 RandomUK

that's why i wanted you to post links. we've had this discussion before. click on Obdicut's link.

252 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:39:10pm

re: #244 MandyManners

This bit:

Mainly believers want to go into it, only believers would be selected for places and only believers can get funding, as the money is dominated by governments and NGOs who have a pro-AGW agenda.

Though you have a point-- Saudi Arabia does not believe in AGW. Some of the other hardcore Islamic nations also don't, I believe. So I should say a conspiracy of every Western government.

253 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:39:59pm

Obdicut

There was plenty of evidence for plate techtonics. It was first postulated in 1918. The 99% figure is rather inaccurate I admit, it was far closer to 100%. The data suggesting that humans are not causing widespread warming is also piling up. I posted some links, but that is just a little.

254 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:40:06pm

re: #252 Obdicut

This bit:

Though you have a point-- Saudi Arabia does not believe in AGW. Some of the other hardcore Islamic nations also don't, I believe. So I should say a conspiracy of every Western government.

They might if they had glaciers...

255 jvic  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:41:16pm

re: #219 ralphieboy

I was up at 2am last year and caught the Super Bowl on German TV. Without commercials. Completely wierd, they must've gotten the rights for free from the NFL to promote American football over there (the Europan Fottball league has since tanked)

But it was odd seeing long pan shots of the stadium and very unselfcounscious players stretching, spitting gatorade and scratching themselves while America was getting bombarded with five-million-dollar-a-minute commercials.

Remember how huffy NFL management got when the Colts rested their starters in the game they lost to the Jets? Every game should be competitive, the NFL said; purity of the turf and all that...

Outrageously hypocritical rubbish.

They wanted the advertising money that an undefeated team in the Superbowl would attract.

In fact, I bet they'd been salivating for the revenue from two undefeated teams in the Superbowl, but the Saints had lost the week before.

256 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:41:29pm

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

Those moist cases can leave you all wet, Walter.

Have fun updinging RandomUK and insulting me.

re: #253 RandomUK

Here's a quick history of the science of plate movement:

[Link: www.ucmp.berkeley.edu...]

It details how the discoveries in geology in the 1960s led to the adoption of the theory of plate tectonics.

257 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:42:26pm

re: #253 RandomUK

Obdicut

There was plenty of evidence for plate techtonics. It was first postulated in 1918. The 99% figure is rather inaccurate I admit, it was far closer to 100%. The data suggesting that humans are not causing widespread warming is also piling up. I posted some links, but that is just a little.

You are correct, but it was not well accepted and the evidence was lacking. Proposing a scientific possibility and proving it with evidence is two different things.

Plate tectonic theory arose out of the hypothesis of continental drift proposed by Alfred Wegener in 1912[7] and expanded in his 1915 book The Origin of Continents and Oceans. He suggested that the present continents once formed a single land mass that drifted apart, thus releasing the continents from the Earth's core and likening them to "icebergs" of low density granite floating on a sea of denser basalt.[8][9] But without detailed evidence and a force sufficient to drive the movement, the theory was not generally accepted: the Earth might have a solid crust and a liquid core, but there seemed to be no way that portions of the crust could move around. Later science supported theories proposed by English geologist Arthur Holmes in 1920 that plate junctions might lie beneath the sea and Holmes' 1928 suggestion of convection currents within the mantle as the driving force.[4][10][11]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

258 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:42:51pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

You don't say :)

Note that TERI received another $500,000 from the Carnegie Corporation also to research glaciology in which Hasnain is directly mentioned, having come to work for Pachauri after the IPCC AR4 report in witch the error was published. Curiously, Hasnain never cleared up this "little" mistake now that he was bought and paid for by Pachuari's TERI and bidding for millions of dollars of funding.

How is it the the man entrusted by the UN to inform the world about Climate Change, Dr. RJ Pachauri, is also bidding for and receiving tens of millions of dollars of funding for his institute based upon his very advice as Chairman of the IPCC and no one sees this as conflict of interest? Please!

259 Soap_Man  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:43:10pm

re: #255 jvic

Remember how huffy NFL management got when the Colts rested their starters in the game they lost to the Jets? Every game should be competitive, the NFL said; purity of the turf and all that...

Outrageously hypocritical rubbish.

They wanted the advertising money that an undefeated team in the Superbowl would attract.

In fact, I bet they'd been salivating for the revenue from two undefeated teams in the Superbowl, but the Saints had lost the week before.

Resting their starters let the Jets in the playoffs. That's why I'm rooting against the Colts. I'm pro-irony.

260 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #253 RandomUK

Obdicut

There was plenty of evidence for plate techtonics. It was first postulated in 1918. The 99% figure is rather inaccurate I admit, it was far closer to 100%. The data suggesting that humans are not causing widespread warming is also piling up. I posted some links, but that is just a little.

Not understanding that process A exists due to a lack of understanding and denying that process B exists despite a mountain of data are not in any way fit for comparison.

261 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:43:37pm

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

you beat me fair and square to the point...

262 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:43:59pm

re: #256 Obdicut

Those moist cases can leave you all wet, Walter.

Have fun updinging RandomUK and insulting me.

I don't need your permission. And I am also agreeing with you, as in #257.

263 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:44:44pm

re: #258 Bagua

Note that TERI received another $500,000 from the Carnegie Corporation also to research glaciology in which Hasnain is directly mentioned, having come to work for Pachauri after the IPCC AR4 report in witch the error was published. Curiously, Hasnain never cleared up this "little" mistake now that he was bought and paid for by Pachuari's TERI and bidding for millions of dollars of funding.

How is it the the man entrusted by the UN to inform the world about Climate Change, Dr. RJ Pachauri, is also bidding for and receiving tens of millions of dollars of funding for his institute based upon his very advice as Chairman of the IPCC and no one sees this as conflict of interest? Please!

My comments back to you are in support, you know.

264 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:45:36pm

re: #261 aceofwhat?

you beat me fair and square to the point...

What the hell are you talking about? I wasn't trying to beat you at anything. Is this some sort of game?

265 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:45:43pm

re: #258 Bagua

Are you going to be providing any support for your contentions?

266 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:46:14pm

re: #242 Obdicut


Given that this was included in the report, I have no idea why you think showing that it was presented at a conference is in any way new information.

What I am asking you to do is to provide evidence of the grants that you say were assigned, and to connect them to the particular claim about the glaciers. Can you do so, or not?

Fool, I did exactly that above showing the presentation given at the conference highlighting the specific claim and that that same organisation awarded the 3 million euros six days later. The link is obvious to anyone not desperate to spin, as you are.

267 aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:46:58pm

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

What the hell are you talking about? I wasn't trying to beat you at anything. Is this some sort of game?

easy, tiger. you answered a post and then i did, in short order, making a similar point - haven't you ever clicked 'post comment' only to see that someone made your point two comments earlier?

just givin' credit where it's due...

268 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:48:07pm

re: #263 Walter L. Newton

My comments back to you are in support, you know.

Yes I know.

269 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:49:22pm

re: #268 Bagua

Yes I know.

Am I that evident? :)

270 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:49:50pm

re: #266 Bagua

Again: Can you link to information about the grant award, please? Or just name the grant?

271 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:50:19pm

Ace

That was not what I was trying to do. I was pointing out that in many cases scientific consensus is wrong. That is simply the case most familiar to me. I could have mentioned anything from the heliocentric solar system to the relationship between pandas and bears. The argument that the majority is relevant is simply not valid in science. The evidence is relevant, nothing else.

272 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:52:47pm

re: #271 RandomUK

Can you please finish your logical equation? There's a gap. Here's where it is:


1. The majority of scientists have sometimes been wrong. (though much less often since the advent of the scientific method, and usually in areas where there is not much evidence.
2. ...?
3. Therefore, that the majority of scientists believe something is never relevant.

Can you explain what connects point 1 and your conclusion at 3?

273 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:53:49pm

re: #271 RandomUK

re: #272 Obdicut

Can you please finish your logical equation? There's a gap. Here's where it is:

1. The majority of scientists have sometimes been wrong. (though much less often since the advent of the scientific method, and usually in areas where there is not much evidence.
2. ...?
3. Therefore, that the majority of scientists believe something is never relevant.

Can you explain what connects point 1 and your conclusion at 3?

4. Profit!11!

274 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:54:53pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Are you going to be providing any support for your contentions?

Now that's just downright funny Obdicut. I presented clear support and you say that? LOL. Your dishonesty is remarkable.

re: #270 Obdicut

Again: Can you link to information about the grant award, please? Or just name the grant?

Here it is again as I posted above. It is called the "High Noon" project and the money went to Pachauri and Hasnain via TERI which Pachauri runs and Hasnain now words for.

If you read my posts and links instead of just dismissing them unread you would have seen this already. I am only giving a few snippets of a vast amount of information available to someone interested in actual research.

275 charlz  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:55:42pm

re: #266 Bagua

The link is obvious to anyone not desperate to spin, as you are.

It's a leap to construct that link and you've offered no evidence for that leap. It certainly doesn't help your case to label people as fools for expecting such evidence to distinguish this from many possible explanations for the award of a grant. y follows x by 6 days is not evidence.

276 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #271 RandomUK

Ace

That was not what I was trying to do. I was pointing out that in many cases scientific consensus is wrong. That is simply the case most familiar to me. I could have mentioned anything from the heliocentric solar system to the relationship between pandas and bears. The argument that the majority is relevant is simply not valid in science. The evidence is relevant, nothing else.

I'm also skeptical of scientific consensus - i don't like thinking that one can't take a different point of view without risking ostracization. However, my skepticism turned into a long, long affair with reading opinions on both sides until it seemed to me quite clear that there is some AGW at work.

However, i strongly maintain that there is a world of difference between a consensus that a particular mechanism does not exist for lack of data and a contention that a particular mechanism does not exist despite the data. The majority is only relevant when the vast majority of the measurements are on their side. As in, say, the argument for evolution.

277 freetoken  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:56:42pm

re: #258 Bagua

Yeah... they're in it for the money!

Have you considered that glaciology is a highly specialized field in which the number of participants is limited, and thus the high performers (which are always a fraction of any field) are even fewer? And thus, any individual probably knows and has worked with at some time a non-trivial fraction of their colleagues?

278 jvic  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:58:15pm

re: #259 Soap_Man

Resting their starters let the Jets in the playoffs. That's why I'm rooting against the Colts. I'm pro-irony.

Irony:

In the last game of 2007, the Patriots went for the perfect season and did not rest their starters. The Giants' narrow loss in that game gave them the confidence to crash through the playoffs and upset New England in the Superbowl.

279 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 1:58:37pm

re: #275 charlz

It's a leap to construct that link and you've offered no evidence for that leap. It certainly doesn't help your case to label people as fools for expecting such evidence to distinguish this from many possible explanations for the award of a grant. y follows x by 6 days is not evidence.

A Leap? That's amusing. I presented the actual power-point presentation from the conference highlighting the 2035 claim that directly resulted in the grant starting and funding the "High Noon" project six days later.

280 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:00:08pm

re: #277 freetoken

Yeah... they're in it for the money!

Have you considered that glaciology is a highly specialized field in which the number of participants is limited, and thus the high performers (which are always a fraction of any field) are even fewer? And thus, any individual probably knows and has worked with at some time a non-trivial fraction of their colleagues?

i don't understand. your post makes perfect sense but seems to be a different question than whether it is appropriate to chair a UN committee while also heading an organization that can profit directly from the work of the committee. don't we hate it when doctors get paid by pharmaceutical companies whose products they are "evaluating"? seems like a good analogy to me...

281 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:00:29pm

re: #274 Bagua

Okay. The High Noon project appears to definitely study glacier retreats in the Himilayas-- which Charles has correctly noted above is definitely a major concern despite this error.

[Link: www.eu-highnoon.org...]

That's their agenda.

Can you please provide any support for your contention that that one claim, that one slide, is the reason why this money was allocated, rather than simply the preponderance of opinion that glacier melting is worth studying?

282 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:00:42pm

Obdicut

The majority of scientists are very frequently wrong. At some stage the majority are wrong about almost every aspect of science you could mention. Forgetting that delays development of science.

When an entire field of science is structured specifically to find one result (which this is) and the funding is skewed so heavily to those looking to find that result; when the most prominent, prestigious world body collecting information has the result assumed in its constitution; when a small handful of people corrupt the scientific method, illegally in the UK (there is a legal requirement to publish all data and methods from government-funded environmental research) and corrupt the peer-review process, then the majority is quit likely to be wrong.

There is no mechanism to move out of the steady state, the assumption of AGW is systemic not evidential, whatever the science says. All the feedback pushes thinking back to AGW, so even when there is no GW the scientists involved admit there is none they cannot think otherwise, and make mad claims that the data they had previously relied on must now be wrong. Do read the Bishops Hill blog. It is all obvious from the CRU leaks.

283 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:00:59pm

re: #277 freetoken

Yeah... they're in it for the money!

Have you considered that glaciology is a highly specialized field in which the number of participants is limited, and thus the high performers (which are always a fraction of any field) are even fewer? And thus, any individual probably knows and has worked with at some time a non-trivial fraction of their colleagues?

Have you ever considered that science costs money, and that scientist are just people, and it is certainly not beyond a scientist to decide to fudge research in order to gardner more funding.

Tell me that's never happened?

I worked at the National Renewable Energy Lab (a DOE lab) for 13 years, let me tell you, it happens.

You make it sound like Bagua is suggesting the impossible.

It not impossible.

I'm not addressing if it happened in this case mentioned above, but only addressing your narrow assumption that it couldn't happen for the money.

284 ryannon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:01:48pm

re: #48 RandomUK

I've seen photos of glacier shrinkage/retreat in France and unless they're outright photoshopped lies, there is no mistaking their dramatic diminution over the last hundred years. I'd imagine that similar photo-documentation is available for most places. Has anyone ever seen evidence of any real growth? If so - link, please.

285 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:01:56pm

re: #280 Aceofwhat?

i don't understand. your post makes perfect sense but seems to be a different question than whether it is appropriate to chair a UN committee while also heading an organization that can profit directly from the work of the committee. don't we hate it when doctors get paid by pharmaceutical companies whose products they are "evaluating"? seems like a good analogy to me...

It's called deflection. Bagua is harping on evident fact, so, what to do next, try deflecting.

286 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:02:17pm

re: #277 freetoken

Yeah... they're in it for the money!

Have you considered that glaciology is a highly specialized field in which the number of participants is limited, and thus the high performers (which are always a fraction of any field) are even fewer? And thus, any individual probably knows and has worked with at some time a non-trivial fraction of their colleagues?

The point being that the specialist did not correct the IPCC "mistake" and instead repeated it for years as they bid for massive funding.

The other point that the same people advising governments on the supposedly impartial IPCC are also bidding for millions of dollars in funding from that same advice.

287 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:03:33pm

re: #285 Walter L. Newton

It's called deflection. Bagua is harping on evident fact, so, what to do next, try deflecting.

Or down dinging, that'll get one quaking in their boots for sure.

288 charlz  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:03:46pm

re: #279 Bagua

A Leap? That's amusing. I presented the actual power-point presentation from the conference highlighting the 2035 claim that directly resulted in the grant starting and funding the "High Noon" project six days later.

Again, x follows y by 6 days may be enough to demonstrate a direct result for you, but one is not a "fool" for expecting more compelling evidence.

289 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:04:55pm

re: #285 Walter L. Newton

It's called deflection. Bagua is harping on evident fact, so, what to do next, try deflecting.

i didn't want to presume such a thing...seems more civilized to ask for clarification.

290 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:06:15pm

re: #276 Aceofwhat?

So what evidence brought you to that conclusion? How does a 0.29% increase in the greenhouse effect, which should raise temperatures by 0.01 of a degree (total greenhouse effect is approximately 33 degrees Celsius) suddenly have these dramatic consequences? Where is the evidence that temperatures are so high? What is the explanation for the lies and fraud from climatologists? Why did they try to hide their data and models, of both are valid? Why did the processing always increase warming effects? Why, when much of the processing was done badly, is the data still valid?

To come to that conclusion you must have answered all these questions and many more, the ones that I never could, the reasons I stopped believing.

291 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:06:42pm

re: #288 charlz

Again, x follows y by 6 days may be enough to demonstrate a direct result for you, but one is not a "fool" for expecting more compelling evidence.

What would be a direct result for you?

292 freetoken  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:08:18pm

re: #280 Aceofwhat?

i don't understand. your post makes perfect sense but seems to be a different question than whether it is appropriate to chair a UN committee while also heading an organization that can profit directly from the work of the committee.

Here then is the problem you are setting up:

Any senior scientist in a highly specialized field will be connected to at least one (and probably more than one) of the groups who research in that field.

Then, if you want to gather a super-group of experts in that field, the person who heads that conglomeration will have at least some connections to the work being done in that field.

Otherwise, you have to pick an outsider, one who is not part of that field of expertise.

However, if the UNFCCC had done exactly that, picked a non-climatologist to head up the IPCC, say a specialist international law or policy, then what would have happened? I propose that the nay-sayers would point their fingers and wag their tongues and claim that a non-scientist was running the show and therefor the conclusions aren't science! Yes, it is reasonable to expect that is what would happen.

So the IPCC is damned if they do (appoint one of their own specialists in the field to be the head member of the group) and would be damned if they don't.

293 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:09:40pm

re: #281 Obdicut

Okay. The High Noon project appears to definitely study glacier retreats in the Himilayas-- which Charles has correctly noted above is definitely a major concern despite this error.

[Link: www.eu-highnoon.org...]

That's their agenda.

Thank you for showing a bit of flexibility. On that basis I don't mind debating with you.

Note that you say "That's their agenda" but you are missing the crucial point, it did not become "their agenda" until after the conference in which the 2035 claim was highlighted.

Can you please provide any support for your contention that that one claim, that one slide, is the reason why this money was allocated, rather than simply the preponderance of opinion that glacier melting is worth studying?

I never claimed that it was that "one slide" rather I claimed that it was a prominent part of their presentation as is obvious if one looks at the presentation I linked to. It set the whole basis for the alarmism.

Furthermore, if you read more about this you will find that it is exactly the claims made in the now discredited glacier section of the IPCC that led to this conference and a great deal of concern in India and Asia. It is the major issue for them, and quite rightly so as we are talking about billions of people dependent on the glaciers for water.

294 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:10:40pm

re: #292 freetoken

Here then is the problem you are setting up:

Any senior scientist in a highly specialized field will be connected to at least one (and probably more than one) of the groups who research in that field.

Then, if you want to gather a super-group of experts in that field, the person who heads that conglomeration will have at least some connections to the work being done in that field.

Otherwise, you have to pick an outsider, one who is not part of that field of expertise.

However, if the UNFCCC had done exactly that, picked a non-climatologist to head up the IPCC, say a specialist international law or policy, then what would have happened? I propose that the nay-sayers would point their fingers and wag their tongues and claim that a non-scientist was running the show and therefor the conclusions aren't science! Yes, it is reasonable to expect that is what would happen.

So the IPCC is damned if they do (appoint one of their own specialists in the field to be the head member of the group) and would be damned if they don't.

No, this is the problem, and it's a straight forward question, which you have not given a straight forward answer... instead you deflect and set up an new question... just answer this...

"whether it is appropriate to chair a UN committee while also heading an organization that can profit directly from the work of the committee."

Yes/No.

295 charlz  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:11:24pm

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

What would be a direct result for you?

I've worked in the federal government for an organization that makes grants. Normally, grants are based in part on the totality of an applicant's work or expertise, not Page 5 of a powerpoint presentation that preceded the grant award by 6 days. most grant applications precede awards by months.

296 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:11:59pm

re: #292 freetoken

I understand, i just disagree. when selecting from a pool of experts, you make it clear that they need to sever and sell their positions in existing private ventures before receiving the honor (and the salary) of leading such an august committee.

happens in medicine all the time. by all means, select from the best specialists. just make them get the hell out of the business side of it.

297 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:12:11pm

re: #293 Bagua

I never claimed that it was that "one slide" rather I claimed that it was a prominent part of their presentation as is obvious if one looks at the presentation I linked to. It set the whole basis for the alarmism.

Furthermore, if you read more about this you will find that it is exactly the claims made in the now discredited glacier section of the IPCC that led to this conference and a great deal of concern in India and Asia. It is the major issue for them, and quite rightly so as we are talking about billions of people dependent on the glaciers for water.

And we are also talking about the fact that the Indian government is livid over this mistake...

[Link: www.newspostonline.com...]

298 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:14:09pm

re: #290 RandomUK

So what evidence brought you to that conclusion? How does a 0.29% increase in the greenhouse effect, which should raise temperatures by 0.01 of a degree (total greenhouse effect is approximately 33 degrees Celsius) suddenly have these dramatic consequences? Where is the evidence that temperatures are so high? What is the explanation for the lies and fraud from climatologists? Why did they try to hide their data and models, of both are valid? Why did the processing always increase warming effects? Why, when much of the processing was done badly, is the data still valid?

To come to that conclusion you must have answered all these questions and many more, the ones that I never could, the reasons I stopped believing.

start here.

[Link: www.skepticalscience.com...]

299 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:14:46pm

re: #288 charlz

Again, x follows y by 6 days may be enough to demonstrate a direct result for you, but one is not a "fool" for expecting more compelling evidence.

I snap at Obdicut because he always heckles my posts, thus it seems overly harsh to you today.

The Conference was formed because they were alarmed by the IPCC glacier claims. At the conference, the false claim was given prominent emphasis. As a result, the conference organisers decide 6 days later to give 3 million euros to the agency that made the false claim. It could not be clearer.

300 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:14:56pm

re: #284 ryannon

Over the last hundred years? Try the last 12,000 years, on and off! We are coming out of a glacial period, and we are also coming out of the little ice age. Temperatures have been rising and falling for 4 billion years, and there are cycles on many different scales. Glacier retreat is also not always connected with temperature, so that actually shows no evidence whatever of warming. For example Kilimanjaro glaciers are shrinking, but due to the tea plantations temperature records there are very good, and show no upward trend.

There are advancing glaciers in various parts of the world, but I am not going to waste time looking for links. The last reference I saw was on a story about the latest scandal, as the IPCC ignored research that was sent to them that other Himalayan glaciers were advancing. However as I have said this cannot be shown to have bearing on the veracity or the effects of AGW without a discussion far beyond the scope of this thread!

301 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:15:18pm

re: #295 charlz

I've worked in the federal government for an organization that makes grants. Normally, grants are based in part on the totality of an applicant's work or expertise, not Page 5 of a powerpoint presentation that preceded the grant award by 6 days. most grant applications precede awards by months.

And I worked for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for 13 years, over 900 scientist, and I am well aware of the lure of grant money versus actual output and real science. They have been compromised.

302 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:15:39pm

re: #292 freetoken

Here then is the problem you are setting up:

Any senior scientist in a highly specialized field will be connected to at least one (and probably more than one) of the groups who research in that field.

Then, if you want to gather a super-group of experts in that field, the person who heads that conglomeration will have at least some connections to the work being done in that field.

Otherwise, you have to pick an outsider, one who is not part of that field of expertise.

However, if the UNFCCC had done exactly that, picked a non-climatologist to head up the IPCC, say a specialist international law or policy, then what would have happened? I propose that the nay-sayers would point their fingers and wag their tongues and claim that a non-scientist was running the show and therefor the conclusions aren't science! Yes, it is reasonable to expect that is what would happen.

So the IPCC is damned if they do (appoint one of their own specialists in the field to be the head member of the group) and would be damned if they don't.

But surely Dr Pachauri is NOT a climatologist. He's an economist.

303 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:16:00pm

re: #295 charlz

I've worked in the federal government for an organization that makes grants. Normally, grants are based in part on the totality of an applicant's work or expertise, not Page 5 of a powerpoint presentation that preceded the grant award by 6 days. most grant applications precede awards by months.

And you never answered my question.

304 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:17:57pm

Aceofwhat

I looked at that. It doesn't address most of the issues I have, and none of those that I wrote in that paragraph. Those it does address it is not correct or relies on the work done by the Hockey Team which has been shown to be corrupted.

305 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:19:03pm

I suggest you start with 0.29% of 33 degrees. Unless you can get over that then this thing is dead in the water!

306 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:19:39pm

re: #297 Walter L. Newton

And we are also talking about the fact that the Indian government is livid over this mistake...

[Link: www.newspostonline.com...]

Not just the Indian government and its scientists who were dismissed as "arrogant" and "voodoo scientists' by IPCC/TERI Pachauri, but the Indian media is up in arms over this.

The 2035 claim was used repeatedly to alarm the people of India and to cajole the government into taking dramatic actions. As is noted in dozens of article in the India's media.

307 prairiefire  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:20:18pm

...

308 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:21:53pm

re: #304 RandomUK

Aceofwhat

I looked at that. It doesn't address most of the issues I have, and none of those that I wrote in that paragraph. Those it does address it is not correct or relies on the work done by the Hockey Team which has been shown to be corrupted.

you mean the Wegman report?

309 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:22:02pm

re: #302 JohninLondon

But surely Dr Pachauri is NOT a climatologist. He's an economist.

And a railway engineer by trade. However, what is a "climatologist"? No one prominent in the field studied Climate Science in University, the field is too new for that.

310 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:23:41pm

No, sorry, I mean skepticalscience.com

311 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:23:45pm

yes there are millions in grant fuinding at stake here. but the energy industry is a multi-trillion-dollar undertaking that has an active interest in keeping the discussion bogged down in irrelevancies. they are succeeding...

312 charlz  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:24:11pm

re: #303 Walter L. Newton

And you never answered my question.

I was interested in whether there was any evidence to support the assertion. None has been offered, beyond y follows x therefore x -> y. I'm not obliged to list what evidence should be offered to support someone else's assertion.

313 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:26:01pm

re: #310 RandomUK

No, sorry, I mean skepticalscience.com

The Wegman report was written by four statisticians and took issue with the hockey stick graph. Is that the basis of your assertion when you say the work of "the Hockey Team that has since shown to be corrupted"

314 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:26:30pm

re: #312 charlz

I was interested in whether there was any evidence to support the assertion. None has been offered, beyond y follows x therefore x -> y. I'm not obliged to list what evidence should be offered to support someone else's assertion.

Of course you are not, if you want to deride the conversation and are afraid of the possible outcome. Fine, go talk to yourself if you want.

315 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:26:47pm

re: #313 Aceofwhat?

The Wegman report was written by four statisticians and took issue with the hockey stick graph. Is that the basis of your assertion when you say the work of "the Hockey Team that has since shown to be corrupted"

You don't know the Wegman report off the top of your head? But earlier you posted that you had all of this in your mind. Huh.

316 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:26:56pm

Here is more detail from the Telegraph.

317 charlz  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:29:07pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

Of course you are not, if you want to deride the conversation and are afraid of the possible outcome. Fine, go talk to yourself if you want.

So you're the mind reader now. I intended no derision.

318 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:29:10pm

No, not the hockey-stick. The hockey team, a nickname coined a few months ago for the high-priests of the hockey stick. I was referring to their whole body of work as unreliable, because it is. Read Bishops Hill if you don't understand why, it is a bit beyond this forum.

319 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:32:07pm

___/ !!!

320 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:32:16pm

re: #318 RandomUK

No, not the hockey-stick. The hockey team, a nickname coined a few months ago for the high-priests of the hockey stick. I was referring to their whole body of work as unreliable, because it is. Read Bishops Hill if you don't understand why, it is a bit beyond this forum.

The mountain of data supporting AGW does not balance on the marble contributed by those individuals, whether their work turns out to have been accurate or not.

321 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:32:23pm

re: #318 RandomUK

No, not the hockey-stick. The hockey team, a nickname coined a few months ago for the high-priests of the hockey stick. I was referring to their whole body of work as unreliable, because it is. Read Bishops Hill if you don't understand why, it is a bit beyond this forum.

Of course, to make the Hockey Stick work, I believe you have to remove the Medieval Warm Period... tell that to the Anasazi... there was no warming, there was no drought, there was no need to migrate away from your homeland, it's all in your mind, and the mind of most Pre-columbian scientist who also study these things, including armchair "experts" like me.

322 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:33:28pm

The Anasazi made a pact with the Devil to drive off the Toltecs, true story...

323 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:35:23pm

re: #320 Aceofwhat?

Sorry Ace, but it does. They had control of one of three co-dependent data sets, and the most quoted of the three. They had control of the peer-review process. They could decide whose work would be considered by the IPCC and whose would not. There is nothing else underpinning this panic but what the Hockey Team have produced or allowed to be published and accepted in their world.

324 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:35:28pm

re: #322 ralphieboy

The Anasazi made a pact with the Devil to drive off the Toltecs, true story...

Which has jack shit to do with what I was talking about and you are reading to much "myth" in popular science magazines or too much Preston/Childs novels... your statement has NO basis in any scientific or archeological facts what so ever.

325 Cheechako  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:36:45pm

re: #284 ryannon

I've seen photos of glacier shrinkage/retreat in France and unless they're outright photoshopped lies, there is no mistaking their dramatic diminution over the last hundred years. I'd imagine that similar photo-documentation is available for most places. Has anyone ever seen evidence of any real growth? If so - link, please.


Hubbard Glacier

326 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:37:25pm

re: #321 Walter L. Newton

Indeed, and tell that to my friend the Greenland-born Danish archaeology graduate. Those farms are there, in the permafrost, abandoned when the cold came.

327 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:37:39pm

re: #324 Walter L. Newton

Which has jack shit to do with what I was talking about and you are reading to much "myth" in popular science magazines or too much Preston/Childs novels... your statement has NO basis in any scientific or archeological facts what so ever.


Are you disparaging pat Robertson? Pacts with the devil are responsible for 90% of the world's catastrophies, homosexuality for the rest.

328 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:38:21pm

re: #323 RandomUK

Sorry Ace, but it does. They had control of one of three co-dependent data sets, and the most quoted of the three. They had control of the peer-review process. They could decide whose work would be considered by the IPCC and whose would not. There is nothing else underpinning this panic but what the Hockey Team have produced or allowed to be published and accepted in their world.

And if you go through my past comments here in regards to the hadcrut3 datasets, and the actual Fortran and IDL code, there is major problems in my opinion. I have the datasets and code, and I have said it over and over, there is a problem with the process, procedure and protocol that was used in the way this data and code was created.

329 ryannon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:39:22pm

Pictures of receding Alpine glaciers:

[Link: worldresource.blogspot.com...]

330 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:39:50pm

re: #327 ralphieboy

Are you disparaging pat Robertson? Pacts with the devil are responsible for 90% of the world's catastrophies, homosexuality for the rest.

No, I am disparaging your child-like inclusion of junk science into this conversation in some sort of effort to engage us.

331 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:41:24pm
332 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:42:52pm

re: #331 RandomUK

Charles does not want links to any of the "jacked" material.

333 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:43:30pm

re: #323 RandomUK

Sorry Ace, but it does. They had control of one of three co-dependent data sets, and the most quoted of the three. They had control of the peer-review process. They could decide whose work would be considered by the IPCC and whose would not. There is nothing else underpinning this panic but what the Hockey Team have produced or allowed to be published and accepted in their world.

alrighty then. if this is one huge conspiracy to you, then there isn't much more progress to be made. i didn't know they edited all of the major scientific magazines in addition to the climate magazines. forgive my ignorance.

334 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:44:15pm

re: #330 Walter L. Newton

No, I am disparaging your child-like inclusion of junk science into this conversation in some sort of effort to engage us.

i for got how dead serious this matter is. even more so than football, i guess.

335 [deleted]  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:45:31pm
336 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:47:03pm

re: #335 Aceofwhat?

note that Walter is saying that the code is sloppy, i.e. not to professional standards. that would be as opposed to saying that the code generates fraudulent results.

i'm not defending sloppy code. i just won't ascribe total ownership of the entire AGW science to the few individuals from CRU.

Do you want me to show you how this sloppy code can produce invalid results? I can, but you will have to email me, since I would be breaking Charles rule about posting or linking to actual hacked material. And I do respect Charles wishes.

337 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:51:12pm

re: #332 Walter L. Newton

Well it is impossible to consider the issue without that. It is vital. The leak was in the public interest, and in fact not putting that information in the public domain was a criminal offence. It is legally required to publish data and methods for environmental research funded by the UK government, and the freedom-of-information requests were also legally enforceable.

338 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:51:51pm

From the EU Press release announcing the 3 million euro award: (linked above)


The project is a direct result of a continuous dialogue and interaction with the Indian research community, which began with the 1st EU-India Strategic Workshop on ‘Climate Change Research Needs’, organised in New Delhi in February 2007. This lead to a competitive process, leading to the selection of the ‘HighNoon’ project in view of its excellence.

The “EU-India India Strategic Workshop on ‘Climate Change
Research Needs’, organised in New Delhi in February 2007” was hosted by R K Pachauri’s Institute TERI and Pachauri was a keynote speaker.

The whole reason for the Workshop by the EU is the false claim of glaciers disappearing by 2035 as is made clear by the presentation made by Anastasios Kentarchos, a senior official from the EU commission's Environment Directorate, DG – Research

Who said:

Topic of high scientific and societal importance!

IPCC 4AR ‘Glaciers in the Himalaya are receding faster than in any other part of the world and if the present rate continues. The likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the Earth keeps warming at the current rate.

Six days later the same EU Commission giving that presentation awards the host, Pachauri’s TERI 3 million launching a research project. Note that TERI was also competing for the grant as is made clear in the press release.

The claim is from the same IPCC chaired by Pachauri. The scientist misquoted in this crucial IPCC conclusion works for Pachauri’s organisation TERI. I say crucial because this is a huge issue in India and Asia and made prominent by the EU. Also, it was highly controversial so it received a great deal of attention over the years.

The import of this false claim is obvious. Without it there is no alarmism as the date for the glaciers possibly disappearing goes 300 to thousands of years in the future instead of 40.

339 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:54:54pm

re: #335 Aceofwhat?

Read the Harry read Me. There is fraud in there, he writes specifically about it. They simply apply different coefficients in different years to suppress the warming in the 1930s and the cooling between 1940 and 1975. the writer calls these "very artificial". The writer complains that the filters are not removing the mediaeval warm period, and he ends up simply writing an algorithm to remove it. There's more, but that is the most obvious to a non-programmer.

340 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:55:26pm

re: #337 RandomUK

Well it is impossible to consider the issue without that. It is vital. The leak was in the public interest, and in fact not putting that information in the public domain was a criminal offence. It is legally required to publish data and methods for environmental research funded by the UK government, and the freedom-of-information requests were also legally enforceable.

And that is known as a Catch 22, isn't it. Nothing I can do about that. I am just passing this on to you. You links may or may not be left posted, that's up to Charles.

341 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:56:31pm

re: #336 Walter L. Newton

Do you want me to show you how this sloppy code can produce invalid results? I can, but you will have to email me, since I would be breaking Charles rule about posting or linking to actual hacked material. And I do respect Charles wishes.

no need. but bad code will produce gibberish. if it's producing results, then what you have is either sloppy but workable, or fraudulent. i've never heard you say that they deliberately rigged the code to produce the results artificially. is that what you're saying?

342 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:57:28pm

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

Has Charles tried to justify this decision in any way? Does he realise that the information was illegally withheld, against two different British laws?

343 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:58:04pm

re: #339 RandomUK

Read the Harry read Me. There is fraud in there, he writes specifically about it. They simply apply different coefficients in different years to suppress the warming in the 1930s and the cooling between 1940 and 1975. the writer calls these "very artificial". The writer complains that the filters are not removing the mediaeval warm period, and he ends up simply writing an algorithm to remove it. There's more, but that is the most obvious to a non-programmer.

And I am a programmer of 25 years. This Fortran code would never have passed peer-review in my business. Peer review seems like one of those issues that are only important when you want to dismiss the other side, other wise, it's not important.

344 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:58:37pm

re: #342 RandomUK

Has Charles tried to justify this decision in any way? Does he realise that the information was illegally withheld, against two different British laws?

so did they get arrested for withholding it?

345 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:58:41pm

re: #341 Aceofwhat?

Not necessarily. It depends on what is sloppy about it, and what is done to the output data. To understand that you really have to read that Readme! This discussion is rather pointless until you have done so.

346 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:59:23pm

re: #333 Aceofwhat?

The central charge is that it is not a huge conspiracy - it is that there is a cabal of folks, and that vthey have contrived to skew the "science' and also the IPCC process.

347 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:00:39pm

re: #341 Aceofwhat?

no need. but bad code will produce gibberish. if it's producing results, then what you have is either sloppy but workable, or fraudulent. i've never heard you say that they deliberately rigged the code to produce the results artificially. is that what you're saying?

I am saying that the code is sloppy enough that if you put data into it, it can produced invalid results. I never said they deliberately rigged the code, that's been suggested by others, I don't know that's a fact, but I do know that I would never trust some of this code for valid results...

I can't say more here without breaking Charles trust, and I won't do that. Agree or not agree with Charles, or anyone else, this is his blog and I have always tried to play by his rules, or not play at all if needed.

348 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:01:10pm

re: #344 Aceofwhat?

No. The complaints have been made, but they also corrupted the information commissioner, who advised them on how to avoid the FOI requests. The process was slow, but the law is clear and unambiguous, all data must be published freely for government-funded environmental research.

349 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:01:33pm

Other blogs may allow linking to stolen material, but not this one.

Anyone who's really interested in the illegally obtained CRU documents can easily find them somewhere else. Not at LGF.

350 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:01:48pm

re: #342 RandomUK

It's his blog, he can request what he wants.

351 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:04:33pm

Indeed, but I am curious to know the reasons. There is no evidence that there was anything illegal about the leak, yet it was clearly illegal to withold the data. Any comment on that, Charles? I am talking about the data and models now, not the emails; they were subject to FOI, but that is less clear (although I still think they would have been released in the end, and that some of them were deleted illegally).

352 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:05:46pm

re: #351 RandomUK

Simple. They were illegally obtained by illegal means.

353 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:05:51pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

I am saying that the code is sloppy enough that if you put data into it, it can produced invalid results. I never said they deliberately rigged the code, that's been suggested by others, I don't know that's a fact, but I do know that I would never trust some of this code for valid results.../blockquote>

But that's my point. When you get invalid results, you get gibberish. And they didn't publish gibberish. So they either managed to get something legible out of their code or they twisted the code until it gave them what they wanted. i just wanted to be clear on what we think they did.

354 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:07:25pm

Varek

What illegal means? What evidence do you have that teh British police do not? They were leaked, by person or persons unknown. There is no evidence that person or those people had them illegally.

355 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:08:29pm

re: #354 RandomUK

They were hacked into. Hacking = Illegal.

356 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:08:37pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

Not necessarily. It depends what you do exactly, but any code that allows division by zero is seriously flawed!

Read the readme! It is far too much to explain to someone who has not read that.

357 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:09:09pm

Varek

They were not hacked. They were leaked. A very different thing, and only illegal in certain circumstances.

358 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:09:29pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

ut that's my point. When you get invalid results, you get gibberish. And they didn't publish gibberish. So they either managed to get something legible out of their code or they twisted the code until it gave them what they wanted. i just wanted to be clear on what we think they did.

Can't go there... email me.

359 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:10:07pm

re: #356 RandomUK

Not necessarily. It depends what you do exactly, but any code that allows division by zero is seriously flawed!

Read the readme! It is far too much to explain to someone who has not read that.

The link has been deleted by Charles, if you haven't noticed.

360 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:11:18pm

I guessed, but it is hardly difficult to find!

361 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:13:24pm

re: #358 Walter L. Newton

i will, thanks-

362 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:23:19pm

MailOnline: Glacier scientist: I knew data hadn't been verified

The scientist behind the bogus claim in a Nobel Prize-winning UN report that Himalayan glaciers will have melted by 2035 last night admitted it was included purely to put political pressure on world leaders
...

‘It had importance for the region, so we thought we should put it in.’

...

And that "pressure" led the EU government to award 3 million euros, and served as the base for all sorts of demands on India's government to slow down their countries economic and industrial progress.

363 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:26:30pm

re: #362 Bagua

MailOnline: Glacier scientist: I knew data hadn't been verified

And that "pressure" led the EU government to award 3 million euros, and served as the base for all sorts of demands on India's government to slow down their countries economic and industrial progress.

"To slow down their rate of consumption of fossil fuels" does not necessarily equate to "slow down their rate of economic and industrial progress".

That is one key assumption that lies at the base of a lot of arguments for and against limiting CO2 emissions.

364 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:30:57pm

Thanks Bagua, that mentions the Karakoram range glaciers, the ones i had seen mentioned as retreating.

I forgot i read it there, as I don't usually read the Mail since one of their undercover reporters tried to trap me and by the company I worked for. It's a bit of a rag, but I am sure that will check out, a simple report of what the scientist said.

365 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:31:51pm

re: #363 ralphieboy

Without resorting to the broken-window fallacy, can I ask how you can justify that?

366 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:33:31pm

re: #365 RandomUK

Without resorting to the broken-window fallacy, can I ask how you can justify that?

Justify how those emails were 'leaked' and not hacked. Justify why you think there is a Planet Wide Conspiracy involving AGW.

367 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:37:30pm

a nation's economic strength is not a factor of how much energy it consumes, but how effieicnetly it uses it.

The Soviet Union was a fine example of an inefficient squanderer of vast resources, I lived in a Moscow high-rise where you could not even control the radiators, if it was too warm, you opened a window.

There are a lot of arguments, political and environmental, for reducing CO2 emissions, it does not mean we have to go back to living in lean-tos and wiping our butts with leaves, it means making an effort to become more energy efficient and thereby energy independent.

And the fact that a limited number of specialists in an arcane and inherently imperfect branch of science can come up with differing conclusions should not blind us to the fact that our climate is changing and that this will have an effect on how we all live.

368 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:40:32pm

The emails and data would not naturally have been stored in one place, except perhaps a copy of the emails on a central server where they would not have been easy to separate. A hacker would have needed to hack every computer on the site, and the server for an extended period, looking for a relatively small amount of data. A hacker would not have known how to find all the information, or what was there or where it was. Unless you believe in the hacking fairy, that someone stumbled by random on disparate parts of the largest scientific fraud ever discovered and decided it needed releasing fo rhte good of humanity you are looking at an insider.

If it was a supremely lucky and altruistic hacker, good on him. Occam's razor says a leak.

369 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:42:21pm

re: #367 ralphieboy

Nope, a nations economic strength is in how it consumes all available resources, including how "available resources" is defined. Yes they can be squandered, and as you rightly say in a totalitarian socialist system they are. So how a new totalitarian socialist system, this time worldwide, likely to fare?

370 Expand Your Ground  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:49:30pm

re: #369 RandomUK

We support a lot of petty dictators and totalitarians by consuming their oil: in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria and, until we invaded it at an enormous cost of lives and money, Iraq.

That is not at all in our interest and has cost us a lot of time and trouble over the long run, and will continue to do so until we can afford to ignore these people

371 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:52:31pm

That does not mean that AGW is true. It is a good reason for reducing oil dependence, I agree, but that must be done in a moderate and considered way, not a global panic.

372 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:54:03pm

re: #366 Varek Raith

Justify how those emails were 'leaked' and not hacked. Justify why you think there is a Planet Wide Conspiracy involving AGW.

I don't see where RandomUK has ever suggested a "Planet Wide Conspiracy"

The "conspiracy-theory" line of attack attack it has the same demeaning overtones as the "denialist" tag. Both are cheap, and don't contribute to debate IMHO.

373 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:56:00pm

Got a real deniers' tag team going here, don't we?

374 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:56:50pm

Oh well - means the post hit a nerve, so that's cool I guess.

375 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:56:58pm

Do you actually have anything relevant to say, Charles, or is it ad hominem fallacy all the way?

376 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:57:05pm

re: #372 JohninLondon

I don't see where RandomUK has ever suggested a "Planet Wide Conspiracy"

The "conspiracy-theory" line of attack attack it has the same demeaning overtones as the "denialist" tag. Both are cheap, and don't contribute to debate IMHO.

Interpret this, then.

re: #247 RandomUK

Obdicut

No, I distrust government because every system ends up by self-perpetuation, and this helps them.

However the conspiracy is in the scientists, who genuinely (sort of) believe what they are saying. It is very clear from the leaked CRU emails. There is no doubt from them that there were in fact two conspiracies, one to corrupt peer review and one to hide their data and methods. They believe in AGW, but did over-emphasise it, and conspired to do so and to cover up that. In fact the only AGW left was in many cases the over-emphasis. Reason had an article recently (to which I really don't have the link, but you should be able to find it at Reason Magazine online) about the only study known to have looked at how scientists deal with unexpected results. Their minds tend to filter them out, unless they are forced to discuss them with people who don't know why they are filtering them out. In this case I think it got to the level of semi-concious filtering (the emails clearly show it).

377 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:57:51pm

Planet-wide? A few labs in a few universities is all it needed. 43 people one commentator said ...

378 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:58:48pm

... and that was before the CRU leak. That suggested a similar number.

379 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:58:49pm

re: #363 ralphieboy

"To slow down their rate of consumption of fossil fuels" does not necessarily equate to "slow down their rate of economic and industrial progress".

That is one key assumption that lies at the base of a lot of arguments for and against limiting CO2 emissions.

There is no one who would deny that the measures being taken right now to date and proposed for the future have a major economic impact. Simply the subsidies on wind power alone in just the UK amount to 1 billion pounds a year. Add all together, along with the cost of carbon emmission credits, and restrictions on coal, oil and natural gas and we are talking hundreds of billions of dollars sucked from the world economy, on its way to trillions.

The reason it is acknowledged by both sides is that it is undeniable.

380 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:59:39pm

re: #378 RandomUK

... and that was before the CRU leak. That suggested a similar number.

They were hacked. End. Of. Story.

381 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:01:03pm

re: #379 Bagua

The problem with those estimates, however, is that they rarely present the alternative; the economic cost of sticking with the current way of doing things.

Add all together, along with the cost of carbon emmission credits, and restrictions on coal, oil and natural gas and we are talking hundreds of billions of dollars sucked from the world economy, on its way to trillions.

Can you explain how the development and implementation of new technology sucks money out of the world economy, please?

382 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:01:43pm

re: #380 Varek Raith

Errrmmm, so why do the British police suggest they might have been leaked? Why are the computer types on the tech websites pointing out that it was not a hack?

Most of all, I presented in my small way the argument that convinced me it was a leak (you will have to go to those tech websites for more detail). What is your argument?

383 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:02:58pm

re: #372 JohninLondon

I don't see where RandomUK has ever suggested a "Planet Wide Conspiracy"

The "conspiracy-theory" line of attack attack it has the same demeaning overtones as the "denialist" tag. Both are cheap, and don't contribute to debate IMHO.

Add "a new totalitarian socialist system" and a "global panic" to that list.

384 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:03:20pm

re: #381 Obdicut

Resources, not money. Cash is simply a means of exchange, it is not in itself an inherently useful resource.

385 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:03:55pm

re: #375 RandomUK

Do you actually have anything relevant to say, Charles, or is it ad hominem fallacy all the way?

Are those my only two choices, or could I have pie instead?

386 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:04:18pm

Ah, fun times!

387 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:04:34pm

re: #385 Charles

The pie is cursed.

388 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:06:18pm
389 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:06:43pm

re: #369 RandomUK

Nope, a nations economic strength is in how it consumes all available resources,

That is nonsense, especially when the resource consumed have to be imported and leads to a large trade defiicit.

390 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:07:03pm

re: #373 Charles

If you mean me, Charles, I have no idea who Random UK is.

391 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:07:33pm

re: #383 jaunte

Errrmm, surely a world agreement to manage a resource by coercive means is both totalitarian and socialist. That is the suggested solution to climate change. There are people recommending that we all should be madly concerned about the climate and over-react to it in haste, i.e. that we panic on a global scale. Seems fairly clear to me. Whether it is a conspiracy depends on how strictly you define that term.

392 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:08:47pm

re: #380 Varek Raith

They were hacked. End. Of. Story.

And what arguments do you have to support that claim ? To counter the arguments put earlier ?

393 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:08:49pm

re: #391 RandomUK

So fisheries agreements: Also totalitarian socialism at work?

394 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:09:52pm

re: #392 JohninLondon

And what arguments do you have to support that claim ? To counter the arguments put earlier ?

42.
Sorry I'm way past the point of even arguing with AGW deniers.

395 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:10:57pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

42.
Sorry I'm way past the point of even arguing with AGW deniers.

But you surely are arguing ?

396 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:11:02pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

42.
Sorry I'm way past the point of even arguing with AGW deniers.

How does Charles do it???

Just that awesome, I guess! :)

397 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:11:04pm

re: #389 Reginald Perrin

Errrmmm, surely that comes under the bit you cleverly fail to quote, i.e. the definition of available resources. If you are not including them in economic strength then those imports are not part of "available resources".

398 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:11:26pm

re: #391 RandomUK

Errrmm, surely a world agreement to manage a resource by coercive means is both totalitarian and socialist. That is the suggested solution to climate change.


Fat chance of that agreement happening.

399 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:11:40pm

re: #396 Varek Raith

How does Charles do it???

Just that awesome, I guess! :)

It's the pie.

400 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:11:59pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

In other words you have no idea, it is just your own prejudice (in the literal meaning of the word, you have pre-judged).

401 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:12:04pm

re: #395 JohninLondon

But you surely are arguing ?

Nope, just being snarky. You see, any argument I, or any one else, gives will be soundly ignored. ;)

402 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:12:57pm

re: #398 jaunte

:) I know. With scandal piling on scandal in the climate-panic industry people will just not accept it.

403 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:13:22pm

re: #395 JohninLondon

So you're alleging that CRU is lying about it being a hack and that the police are falling for it?

Why?

404 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:14:05pm

re: #400 RandomUK

In other words you have no idea, it is just your own prejudice (in the literal meaning of the word, you have pre-judged).

Oh, I do. I also know you don't give two shits about any evidence that dissuades you from your anti-AGWism, hence my snarkiness.

405 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:15:12pm

re: #400 RandomUK

Yes. Most of us here who are downdinging you have, in fact, read a lot on the subject and already judged-- and found wanting-- the arguments you are making. I, for one, don't feel compelled to yet again make them.

You've basically trotted out every weak denial point-- from denying consensus to claiming a conspiracy on the part of scientists-- and I have no idea why you think these arguments will convince a soul.

406 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:15:59pm

re: #402 RandomUK

:) I know. With scandal piling on scandal in the climate-panic industry people will just not accept it.


This argument is reminiscent of the ones brought by the Discovery Institute fellows who regularly predict that evolutionary biology is teetering on the brink of irrelevance.

407 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:16:18pm

re: #403 Obdicut

The police investigated a hack or leak, they did not make an assumption. The CRU admitted when confronted they did not know. Of course they suggested a hack, it diverts attention, lets them talk about illegal release and ignore the content, allows their followers to claim a principled stand when they refuse to discuss the greatest scandal ever discovered in modern science.

408 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:17:25pm

re: #405 Obdicut

Judged and found wanting? Seems strange that you are unable to come up with any counter-argument then. So what about that 0.29% of 33 degrees being less than 0.01 of a degree? How is that wanting, it's simple arithmetic!

409 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:17:59pm

re: #407 RandomUK
re: #408 RandomUK

Okely dokely.

410 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:18:25pm

re: #403 Obdicut

So you're alleging that CRU is lying about it being a hack and that the police are falling for it?

Why?

The CRU immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was a hack. All the stuff I have seen since then by people with experience in computing suggests that all the material was in a single dossier, or maybe a couplke of dossiers, which were leaked - and that it would be impossible for a hacker to have accessed all the computers necessary to construct the set of material that was released.

I am not aware that the police have ever disputed that it could all be a deliberate leak.

411 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:18:55pm

re: #393 Obdicut

So fisheries agreements: Also totalitarian socialism at work?

shhh comrade. they'll hear you...

412 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:18:58pm

re: #406 jaunte

Actually that is one of the dangers here, that anti-scientific beliefs will gain from the dishonour of science. I have a friend who believes in all sorts of odd stuff, aliens and auras and such, and AGW has fixed his belief that science is nonsense.

413 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:21:56pm

re: #412 RandomUK

I think that worrying over the possibility of an effective worldwide socialist-totalitarian agreement to manage resources is certainly odd stuff.

414 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:22:11pm

re: #393 Obdicut

Errrmmm, that depends on the agreement. If it has a rational scientific basis in conserving fish stocks, no. That is a sensible precaution. If it is intended to protect the fishing industry, or is irrational (such as the EU CFP) then it might well be, yes.

415 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:22:59pm

re: #410 JohninLondon

Charles has experience in computing. He disagrees with your conclusion. Therefore, your statement that:

All the stuff I have seen since then by people with experience in computing suggests that all the material was in a single dossier, or maybe a couplke of dossiers, which were leaked - and that it would be impossible for a hacker to have accessed all the computers necessary to construct the set of material that was released.

Is either a lie, or ignorant. Which?

416 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:23:39pm

re: #413 jaunte

Well even doing it badly is already affecting the economies of many countries. Look at the EU cap-and-trade, look at the export of work from Europe, taking the carbon emissions with it. Irrational market distortions are almost always damaging to the economy.

417 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:24:13pm

re: #415 Obdicut

How do you know what John has seen?

418 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:25:19pm

re: #417 RandomUK

I don't. That's why I offered the 'ignorant' part. Did you somehow not notice it?

419 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:25:22pm

re: #412 RandomUK

Actually that is one of the dangers here, that anti-scientific beliefs will gain from the dishonour of science. I have a friend who believes in all sorts of odd stuff, aliens and auras and such, and AGW has fixed his belief that science is nonsense.

Nothing odd about aliens. Consider this. There are ~200 to 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone. Multiply that by the approximately 200 billion known galaxies. We're the only ones? I think not.
:)

420 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:26:02pm

re: #419 Varek Raith

Hell, all it takes is one discovery of bacteria on another planet and we've got 'aliens'.

421 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:26:24pm

re: #413 jaunte

I think that worrying over the possibility of an effective worldwide socialist-totalitarian agreement to manage resources is certainly odd stuff.


How about :

"The policy prescriptions that have been built on the AGW case (bandwagon?) make no economic sense and involve a massive interference in the market and huge shifts of control of economic resources. It is socialists like Gordon Brown who are in the forefront of arguing for such dirigiste policies".

422 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:28:11pm

re: #420 Obdicut

Hell, all it takes is one discovery of bacteria on another planet and we've got 'aliens'.

:D

423 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:28:33pm

re: #415 Obdicut

Of course we're still waiting for any evidence that the release was illegal. Varek had a huff when he couldn't think of anything, Charles has not deigned to comment here on that or on the fact that the not releasing the data was itself illegal. You haven't actually made an argument.

So, where is the evidence of a hack? Was this valuable data on a system so weakly secured that a hacker was trawling around for days for exactly what he wanted, knowing there was a conspiracy in CRU without inside knowledge? Or is Occam right, the simple answer is usually the best (or rather that which relies on fewest assumptions)?

424 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:30:08pm

re: #423 RandomUK

You can use the search functions on LGF to find that Charles has, in fact, deigned to comment on the CRU hack. Why not give it a whirl?

425 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:31:13pm

re: #397 RandomUK

The United states imports 3.65 billion barrels of oil each year, so isn't it rather foolish to continue to do so, degrading the environment and running up huge trade deficits?

426 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:31:29pm

re: #419 Varek Raith

Yep, but he believes they are regular weekend guests! He is great in his field, I work for him occasionally, but a bit of a nut in some things. The problem is that the conspiracy in the scientific establishment and its support in the political hierarchies are obvious. His view is then that the scientists who say that his pet beliefs are so much hokum are also in a conspiracy to hide the truth.

427 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:32:10pm

re: #415 Obdicut

Charles has experience in computing. He disagrees with your conclusion. Therefore, your statement that:

Is either a lie, or ignorant. Which?

I have seen no full argument by Charles or anyone else to show that this was not a leak. Per contra, I have seen full and to me convincing arguments that the material could only have been pre-assembled at CRU and then leaked.

And isn't Charles' experience in programming rather than something like a university or department-wide computer and communications system ? The arguments suggesting a leak have focussed on how all the material could have been accessed from a lot of servers and PCs.

428 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:32:10pm

re: #426 RandomUK

His view is then that the scientists who say that his pet beliefs are so much hokum are also in a conspiracy to hide the truth.

So, he's you?

429 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:34:40pm

re: #421 JohninLondon

How about :

"The policy prescriptions that have been built on the AGW case (bandwagon?) make no economic sense and involve a massive interference in the market and huge shifts of control of economic resources. It is socialists like Gordon Brown who are in the forefront of arguing for such dirigiste policies".

how about "the question of AGW itself and the question of the proper prescription for AGW ought not be confused, combined, or mixed, lest our thinking become muddier than it already is"

-me

430 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:34:57pm

re: #427 JohninLondon

So your assertion is that CRU is lying when they say that an outside person accessed their server and copied 160 MB of data? And that the police are so incompetent that they can't recognize this?

Or your claim is that the person who hacked into the server was an employee at CRU? Despite the fact that if they were, there would be no reason to access the server remotely?

431 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:36:06pm

re: #418 Obdicut

I don't. That's why I offered the 'ignorant' part. Did you somehow not notice it?

I recorded what I have seen - not what I have not seen. Are you making out that anyone who has not read everything that Charles has posted is "ignorant" ? That is really stupid - is Charles some sort of God in your eyes ?

432 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:37:36pm

re: #424 Obdicut

Because it's half-past midnight, and I have to work tomorrow so I will not be here long. I was looking for a diverting discussion, I have seen the facts about that issue elsewhere. I am of course interested in anything people in a debate say, but if I want to look at a couple of different points of view I can search, or I can look elsewhere at far more interesting sites.

Charles is here and posting, so are you guys, this is live debate. I do not expect Charles to post, but neither do I believe you simply because you refer to him in awe as a computer god. Why do you believe it was not a leak, why must it have been a hack? What is your understanding of the legality and morality, given that it did expose a scandal?

433 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:38:40pm

re: #430 Obdicut

Do you actually know what a leak is???

434 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:38:58pm

re: #431 JohninLondon

How do you leap to the 'god' thing? That was kind of out of left field.

I don't know if you noticed, but you're posting on LGF-- it's Charles's site. If you didn't know that Charles had posted about the CRU emails, I'd be surprised, given how often I see you showing up in AGW-related threads. However, if you weren't aware of Charles's posts about AGW-- or that the forensic programmers investigating the hack are indeed treating it as a criminal access-- then you are, indeed, ignorant.

I doubt you are, though.

435 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:39:08pm

re: #424 Obdicut

You can use the search functions on LGF to find that Charles has, in fact, deigned to comment on the CRU hack. Why not give it a whirl?

Why don't you give it a whirl, and then get back to us when you have trawled through all the many posts Charles has made? YOU are the one asserting it was a hack, the onus is on you to come up with your supporting arguments.

436 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:40:14pm

re: #435 JohninLondon

Why waste the time, you'd just ignore it. Drop the ploy, nothing will convince you otherwise.

437 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:42:18pm

re: #432 RandomUK

I do not expect Charles to post, but neither do I believe you simply because you refer to him in awe as a computer god.

I referred to him as someone with experience in computing. Why do you have to lie to make your point?

What is your understanding of the legality and morality, given that it did expose a scandal?

It didn't expose a scandal, though. That's simply your assertion, and the assertion of other climate deniers.

Do you actually know what a leak is???

Yes. A leak comes from an internal source, whereas a hack implies an external source. Can you explain why you asked?

re: #435 JohninLondon

The police are also treating it as a criminal access Those investigating it include those with computing experience, by the way.

438 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:43:17pm

re: #434 Obdicut

Hey, I don't usually come here. It was only because I came across a site concerning the 1700 people he had banned that I came back after months away. It's Charles's site, he can run it how he likes. However for now that includes allowing us to post, and speculate on this, and it seems that no-one willing to actually discuss it knows why they think this was a hack rather than a leak. If he asks us not to discuss it, I will comply, as I said it is his site! I doubt he will, because I am sure he is confident of whatever reasons he has. However since he seems reluctant to discuss them it is pointless me looking them up!

439 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:43:28pm

re: #421 JohninLondon

How about :

"The policy prescriptions that have been built on the AGW case (bandwagon?) make no economic sense and involve a massive interference in the market and huge shifts of control of economic resources. It is socialists like Gordon Brown who are in the forefront of arguing for such dirigiste policies".

let us say that i think i have symptoms that indicate i have a cold. you disagree, and believe that i have no cold. separately, i believe that ingesting zinc will lessen the impact of a cold. you believe that to be false.

would you then say "the zinc that you are taking will not help you feel better, ergo you have no cold"? of course not. the sensibility of taking zinc is unrelated to the question of whether my symptoms indicate that i have a cold.

The sensibility of any particular policy prescription does not impact the likelihood that there is or is no AGW.

440 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:43:54pm

re: #438 RandomUK

Red flags a waving!

441 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:44:05pm

re: #440 Varek Raith

???

442 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:44:39pm

re: #439 Aceofwhat?

The cost of zinc is very low.

443 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:45:19pm

re: #438 RandomUK

It was a hack because the access to the server was remote, and unauthorized. What more do you need?

444 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:45:25pm

re: #430 Obdicut

So your assertion is that CRU is lying when they say that an outside person accessed their server and copied 160 MB of data? And that the police are so incompetent that they can't recognize this?

Or your claim is that the person who hacked into the server was an employee at CRU? Despite the fact that if they were, there would be no reason to access the server remotely?

I am saying :

1 The CRU jumped to conclusions
2 I have seen strong arguments suggesting that it was a leak, and the material could not have been assembled simply by external hacking
3 I would not regard PC Plod as an expert in computing. Their original statement was that they were investigating what the CRU had claimed - a hacl. Since then there have been many public asertions in the UK that it was a leak, not a hack, and the police have not contradicted this as far as I know.

445 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:45:31pm

re: #438 RandomUK

to conflate our disinterest in rehashing a topic with an unwillingness to discuss a topic is lazy, as is your unwillingness to spend two minutes catching yourself up so that we don't have to do it for you.

446 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:46:33pm

re: #441 RandomUK

???

Your second sentence in #438 triggered my Spidey Sense. ;)

447 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:46:37pm

re: #444 JohninLondon

2 I have seen strong arguments suggesting that it was a leak, and the material could not have been assembled simply by external hacking

The server was accessed remotely and 160 MB of data were copied. Is this something you dispute?

448 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:46:57pm

re: #442 RandomUK

The cost of zinc is very low.

True. and it is unrelated to whether or not i have a cold.

different prescriptions for AGW may be wise or unwise, expensive or not expensive. they are unrelated to the question of whether the phenomena exists more or less as currently postulated.

449 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:48:17pm

re: #445 Aceofwhat?

No, I am unwilling to waste time looking up Charles's views when he seems reluctant to come into any substantive discussion. As I said, this is his site and I am not criticising how he runs it or what he is willing to discuss, even what he is willing to allow others to discuss. That is the nature of freedom in the internet.

However if i am going to discuss it with people like your good selves, I wouls like a discussion beyond "yes it is" - "no it isn't".

450 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:48:28pm

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

Well said. Hell, certain prescriptions to combat AGW-- like inefficient biofuels-- may actually increase AGW. I would absolutely love it if the debate about AGW was about what we should do.

I wish we could get there. I do not understand the nihilism inherent in the denier position. It's kinda scary, frankly.

451 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:49:30pm

re: #449 RandomUK

How is him having posted many, many topics on the subject-- that you could find with a few minutes work, being "reluctant to come into any substantive discussion"?

Why don't you just look up and read what he's written, rather than insisting he repeat it in this thread, just for you?

452 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:49:39pm

re: #450 Obdicut

Well said. Hell, certain prescriptions to combat AGW-- like inefficient biofuels-- may actually increase AGW. I would absolutely love it if the debate about AGW was about what we should do.

I wish we could get there. I do not understand the nihilism inherent in the denier position. It's kinda scary, frankly.

Doing nothing = Easy.
Doing something = Teh Hard.

453 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:49:51pm

re: #446 Varek Raith

I hope I made it clear that I respect his right to run this how he likes, including banning whomsoever he chooses, including me if that is his wish. I am not going to defer to him in a discussion, that is not my way, but I respect his privileges as site owner.

454 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:51:15pm

re: #451 Obdicut

Errrmmm, in the fact that he has posted here several times, none of which was substantive. I did not say that he had in the past been reluctant to do so, I was talking in the present tense.

455 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:51:35pm

re: #449 RandomUK

No, I am unwilling to waste time looking up Charles's views when he seems reluctant to come into any substantive discussion. As I said, this is his site and I am not criticising how he runs it or what he is willing to discuss, even what he is willing to allow others to discuss. That is the nature of freedom in the internet.

However if i am going to discuss it with people like your good selves, I wouls like a discussion beyond "yes it is" - "no it isn't".

i like how a person doesn't wish to rehash a topic for the 54th time and you term it "reluctant to come into any substantive discussion". just because you're new to the party doesn't mean we'll redo the limbo contest for you.

456 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:51:45pm

re: #434 Obdicut

How do you leap to the 'god' thing? That was kind of out of left field.

I don't know if you noticed, but you're posting on LGF-- it's Charles's site. If you didn't know that Charles had posted about the CRU emails, I'd be surprised, given how often I see you showing up in AGW-related threads. However, if you weren't aware of Charles's posts about AGW-- or that the forensic programmers investigating the hack are indeed treating it as a criminal access-- then you are, indeed, ignorant.

I doubt you are, though.

I know it is Charles' blog, I was posting here a long time before you appeared, I think.

I repeat - I have seen no posts by Charles setting out arguments for a hack as against a leak. Why not go find them ?

Also, I don't recall posting on lots of threads about AGW. You may be a permanent resident, many of us don't have enough time for that.

And slinging the word "ignorant" around withoput proper cause makes you look very shallow.

457 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:52:39pm
458 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:53:44pm

re: #456 JohninLondon

re: #457 Varek Raith

Here, your only lifeline.

459 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:54:07pm

re: #451 Obdicut

Oh, and I made no insistence that he post anything, quite the opposite I was at pains to state that he can do as he pleases here.

Interesting if you are so keen for me to read it that when I said something earlier I was expected to find references, now you are making a claim you are ... expecting me to find references. Odd.

460 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:54:11pm

re: #454 RandomUK

Okay. So why don't you just look up what he's already written about it, instead of insisting that he post his refutations of your tired talking points again?
re: #456 JohninLondon


I repeat - I have seen no posts by Charles setting out arguments for a hack as against a leak. Why not go find them ?

Because there is no reason to believe it was not a hack.

Again:

The server was accessed remotely and 160 MB of data were copied. Is this something you dispute?

And slinging the word "ignorant" around withoput proper cause makes you look very shallow.

Can you actually post any of your sources that claim that it was a leak rather than a hack, or are they all from climate denial websites?

461 JohninLondon  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:54:15pm

re: #436 Varek Raith

Why waste the time, you'd just ignore it. Drop the ploy, nothing will convince you otherwise.

Nonsense. I would read very closely any links Obdicut comes up with on Charles' arguments on leak-versus-hack.

462 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:54:23pm

re: #454 RandomUK

Errrmmm, in the fact that he has posted here several times, none of which was substantive. I did not say that he had in the past been reluctant to do so, I was talking in the present tense.

again with that. you're too lazy to catch up, but Charles is 'reluctant' because he won't catch you up as a special favor. him being quiet is polite, to say the least. if this was my site i'd tell you that a special request like that makes you crazier than a fish with boobies. so let's call it a polite silence in the face of your apathy.

463 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:55:18pm

re: #461 JohninLondon

And your refusal to research the issue yourself, even though it's obviously one that you're interested in, and obviously you think that reading and posting on LGF is worthwhile: can you explain your rationale there?

464 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:56:36pm

re: #457 Varek Raith

Here, your only lifeline.

you're a better person than i. if they were any lazier, they'd have difficulty pulling the oxygen into their lungs...

465 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:56:42pm

re: #458 Varek Raith

But what do you think? You do have an opinion that is not pre-approved by Charles, don't you?

466 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:57:39pm

re: #464 Aceofwhat?

And of course, the prick immediately just attacked Varek for posting the links.

re: #465 RandomUK

GAZE.

Really.

467 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:57:58pm

re: #465 RandomUK

But what do you think? You do have an opinion that is not pre-approved by Charles, don't you?

What I think is irrelevant. The emails were hacked. The CRU servers were accessed remotely. Investigators are treating as a criminal act.

468 Quebrik3d  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:59:22pm

Looks bad, but we have no historical data that I know of for comparison. How much and how fast did the glacier recede in previous warming periods and how long did they last before re-accumulation? Why do we presume that this warming is permanent instead of cyclical as in the past? We do know that climate change is the rule: the earth has warmed and cooled many times in the past before mankind arose. Man's activities may be responsible for the current warming trend, but how do we know? Why cannot the current trend be a continuation of previous cycles?

469 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:59:45pm

re: #466 Obdicut

And of course, the prick immediately just attacked Varek for posting the links.

re: #465 RandomUK

GAZE.

Really.

I'm utterly shocked...(not)
Thanks, Obdicut! :)

470 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:01:02pm

re: #467 Varek Raith

What I think is irrelevant. The emails were hacked. The CRU servers were accessed remotely. Investigators are treating as a criminal act.

What evidence is there of a hack? Where is the evidence of remote access? Where is the evidence that remote access was not lawful?

Of course investigators treated it as a criminal act, because it might have been. I don't know if they still are, but that doesn't mean they think it likely to be, or that they are right, or that their "opinion" is not just an order from the politicians on high. Why do you think, against the argument John has posted, against the argument I have posted, that it was a hack?

471 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:01:14pm

re: #466 Obdicut

And of course, the prick immediately just attacked Varek for posting the links.

re: #465 RandomUK

GAZE.

Really.

Indeed. Gift horse punched in mouth, much?

472 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:02:48pm

re: #471 Aceofwhat?

So asking someone for their views is now an attack? Wow. This site is appearing a little like Through The Looking Glass.

473 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:03:54pm

As opposed to calling someone a prick just because you disagree with them and they ask you to justify your views and argue your case. That's perfectly ordinary.

474 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:04:41pm

re: #472 RandomUK

So asking someone for their views is now an attack? Wow. This site is appearing a little like Through The Looking Glass.

replying to a helpful link with a comment about the helper not being able to think for themselves is an attack. the sky is blue. any other painfully obvious questions i can help you with?

475 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:04:41pm

Anyway, it's one in the morning now, and raining hard. 'Night all!

476 jaunte  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:05:26pm

This 'was it a hack or a leak' argument is just taking the discussion deeper into the weeds. It's the coming global socialist-totalitarians we really should be concerned about.

477 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:06:36pm

re: #474 Aceofwhat?

replying to a helpful link with a comment about the helper not being able to think for themselves is an attack. the sky is blue. any other painfully obvious questions i can help you with?

Where do babies come from???
/
XD

478 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:06:43pm

re: #476 jaunte

This 'was it a hack or a leak' argument is just taking the discussion deeper into the weeds. It's the coming global socialist-totalitarians we really should be concerned about.

i vote that we assemble and express our feelings through large, creepy paper mache creations! who's with me??

479 RandomUK  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:07:50pm

re: #474 Aceofwhat?

But to answer that, hey, it's hard to lighten the tone of the written word. Read what Varek wrote when Charles was on posting earlier, around the time I first asked him to say why he kept calling the leak an illegal hack. That was the reason for the gentle dig. I suspect Varek, unless he has very thin skin, understood that.

Goodnight!

480 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:08:20pm

re: #477 Varek Raith

Where do babies come from???
/
XD

mitosis!!!

481 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:09:51pm

re: #479 RandomUK

But to answer that, hey, it's hard to lighten the tone of the written word. Read what Varek wrote when Charles was on posting earlier, around the time I first asked him to say why he kept calling the leak an illegal hack. That was the reason for the gentle dig. I suspect Varek, unless he has very thin skin, understood that.

Goodnight!

whether the attack was understandable (not what you asked) and whether it was an attack (what you asked) are two different questions. i answered the one that you asked.

have a good night. you're welcome back, in slightly less apathetic terms!

482 Akweth  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:11:10pm

Gallipoli comes to mind with the global warming farce. Play it out, the end game is in view. Fraud, money, cheat, flat earth science...

483 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:12:02pm

re: #481 Aceofwhat?

whether the attack was understandable (not what you asked) and whether it was an attack (what you asked) are two different questions. i answered the one that you asked.

have a good night. you're welcome back, in slightly less apathetic terms!

i like how i welcomed him back like a houseguest who welcomes another houseguest back on the host's behalf. why don't i use the afghan as a robe and eat the last slice of pie while i'm at it...//

484 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:12:05pm

Damn! They got to synchronize their 'attacks'.

485 Varek Raith  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:12:48pm

re: #484 Varek Raith

Damn! They got tomust synchronize their 'attacks'.


1 always show up when one leaves.

486 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:14:06pm

re: #482 Akweth

i quiver with awe and wonder at your effortless command of the mother tongue. truly, i'm barely fit to rest in your presence.

487 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:16:31pm

re: #482 Akweth

holy crap you've been registered for almost two years and your first post plays out like this? wow, that's like popping the Perignon and feeding it to the rottweiler. what a shame.

488 captdiggs  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:17:05pm

The real problem with this admission of unverified hearsay in a scientific report is that it undermines the entire report.
It has also been reported that the authors of the IPCC were made aware of this problem in 2006. [Link: online.wsj.com...]
That brings up more questions as to why they did not correct it years ago.
The entire episode is like watching a witness in court get caught in *just one lie*.

489 Myshkin  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 6:25:49pm

re: #99 Charles

Of course they are. Believe it or not, they're scientists who want to get it right.

errr... guys, they cited World Wildlife Fund papers numerous times in the IPCC AR4. Last I looked, that's a political organization. That would be like an Intelligent Design paper citing the bible or Ben Stein. I don't think a real scientist would do that once, let alone several times.

490 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 6:31:32pm

re: #489 Myshkin

errr... guys, they cited World Wildlife Fund papers numerous times in the IPCC AR4. Last I looked, that's a political organization. That would be like an Intelligent Design paper citing the bible or Ben Stein. I don't think a real scientist would do that once, let alone several times.

And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

491 Akweth  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 7:01:04pm

The fact is he lied. Money given based on that lie. Fraud.

492 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 7:27:42pm

re: #491 Akweth

The fact is he lied. Money given based on that lie. Fraud.

Your second post rivals your first, I see. Dizzying.

493 steve  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 7:35:00pm

So, what happens when the glaciers come back?

494 skwiself  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 7:40:25pm
And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

[Link: www.economist.com...]

But the passage about 2035 that the WWF report quotes comes not from that ICSI report (which was unpublished) but from an article that appeared around the same time in Down to Earth, an Indian magazine. This article was based in part on an interview with Dr Hasnain, who was also quoted by New Scientist as saying it was possible the glaciers would be gone in 40 years. The article in Down to Earth claims that the area covered by glaciers would drop from 500,000km2 to 100,000km2 by 2035, a claim found in the IPCC report but not in the WWF report. This suggests the Down to Earth article was itself a source for the IPCC, though Murari Lal, a retired Indian academic, now a consultant, who was one of the four co-ordinating lead authors of the chapter, says this was not the case.

No matter how you slice the loaf it looks pretty bad here for the IPCC and WWF.

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

The new controversy also goes back to the IPCC's 2007 report in which a separate section warned that the world had "suffered rapidly rising costs due to extreme weather-related events since the 1970s".

It suggested a part of this increase was due to global warming and cited the unpublished report, saying: "One study has found that while the dominant signal remains that of the significant increases in the values of exposure at risk, once losses are normalised for exposure, there still remains an underlying rising trend."

The Sunday Times has since found that the scientific paper on which the IPCC based its claim had not been peer reviewed, nor published, at the time the climate body issued its report.

When the paper was eventually published, in 2008, it had a new caveat. It said: "We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses."

Politicians have polluted the scientific process, putting pressure on scientists to deliver sound bytes and predictions that can be easily translated into a few scary sentences perfect for the evening news. Scientists need to take it back.

495 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 8:17:12pm

re: #490 Charles

And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

Another major newspaper The Express has published additional mistaken claims.

Bogus Flood Claims Fuel Warming 'Lies'


By Padraic Flanagan

THE world’s leading climate change body was plunged into fresh controversy yesterday for wrongly linking global warming to an increase in ­hurricanes and floods.

The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change based its claims on an unpublished and unverified ­report.

But it then ignored warnings from scientific advisers that the ­evidence supporting the link was too weak, it was claimed.

The report’s own authors later withdrew the claim because they ­acknowledged that the evidence was not strong enough.

The latest criticism comes after the IPCC was forced to retract claims that the Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035. It was claimed yesterday that the IPCC’s controversial head, Rajendra Pachauri, used the claims to win taxpayer-funded grants worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.

They followed the same pattern:

But the paper on which the IPCC based its claim, written in 2006 by a disaster impacts expert, had not been scientifically scrutinised at the time the body issued its report.

By the time it was published in 2008 it carried a warning: “We find ­insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses.” Despite this change, the IPCC did not issue a clarification ahead of the Copenhagen summit.

496 Bagua  Sun, Jan 24, 2010 8:24:40pm

The Express also confirmed some of the same points I made above, good to see another major newspaper reading this blog.

The latest claims come amid revelations that former railway engineer Dr Pachauri, who is also chairman of The Energy and Resources Institute in New Delhi, has won the lion’s share of a £2.5million EU research grant.

It means that taxpayers are funding research into a scientific claim about glaciers that climate researchers have now dismissed as bogus.

...

But reports have emerged which show how the same claim has been cited in grant applications for his institute.

One application, ­announced this month just ­before the “Glaciergate” scandal broke, resulted in a £310,000 grant from the Carnegie Corporation of New York to aid ­research into “the potential security and humanitarian impact on the ­region” as the glaciers began to disappear.

Dr Pachauri, who has defied calls for his resignation and denies any wrongdoing, has since conceded that this threat, if it exists at all, will take centuries to have any serious effect.

The second grant, from the EU, ­totalled £2.5million and was designed to “assess the impact of Himalayan glaciers retreat”. It was part of the EU’s High Noon project, launched last May, to fund research into how India might adapt to loss of glaciers.

The EU grant was split between leading research institutions, including Britain’s Met Office, with The Energy and Resources Institute given a major but unspecified share.

497 JohninLondon  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 3:12:02am

I got lost from LGF last night around 45 after midnight my time, could not get back in, but I now see that I was asked o post a link to arguments that there was a leak from CRU, rather than a hack.

Here is an example, from Canada's best blog, written by a guy with a lot of experience in administering computer networks including mail servers :

[Link: www.smalldeadanimals.com...]

(I trust this is not a blogsite that gets blocked here.)

I have seen no equivalent systematic argumentation here or anywhere that CRU was a hack.

498 JohninLondon  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 3:19:43am

There has been far more dirt posted on Dr Pachauri in the past month or two than has been touched on in this thread.

And all this affects real lives. Just before Christmas, a steelworks in the UK was closed with heavy loss of jobs. The plant was owned by TATA, who are moving the work to India because they can collect carbon offsets from the closure of the UK plant.

(Dr Pachauri happens to be linked to TATA).

And I understand he racked up 400,000 air miles last year, a superb carbon footprint and an example to us all.

499 TreBob  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 5:04:15am

re: #39 Charles

The IPCC has built a very rigorous system for checking the data published in their Assessment Reports -- teams of experts check the reports line by line.

I totally disagree Charles. With so much money involved now previously scientific research has taken on the tones of advocacy and has for more than 2 decades. All I ever hear are varying degrees of warming, always tenuously attributed to man-kind and mainly CO2 all without mention of a margin of error.

Dr. Murari Lal has already admitted to the Daily Mail that he knew that the 2035 Himalayan glacier prediction was (as he put it) "grey science" and included it simply to put political pressure on policy makers. It was then either missed by the 500 peer reviewers or again included by them for political expediency. Hardly an exercise most would call "rigorous". How much more data and "facts" were included just for political reasons without scientific basis? Hopefully now someone will actually look at the 2007 IPCC report and do some more fact checking.

When you're right, there isn't any reason to fudge the data, cherry-pick samples and outright lie as in the case of Himalaya glaciers.

Science isn't about consensus it's about facts and no one can know what the facts are since the advocates are handing out the press kits. Hockey sticks, this glacier statement, the FOI archive released from the Hadley CRU and all the other mistakes in the IPCC report should make anyone believing that the world is getting abnormally warmer want to revisit the data in great detail. The likelihood they are basing their beliefs on false information is very high.

Also, whether or not the world is getting warmer is a different question than is man-kind causing it. Remember, without CO2, we all die.

500 JohninLondon  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 6:04:26am

re: #490 Charles

And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

Surely the point is - why is WWF being cited as a "scientific" source ? It is a pressure group, not a scientific body.

But it appears that the IPCC report is peppered with references to WWF. We will now have to see which of these references come under challenge.

[Link: nofrakkingconsensus.blogspot.com...]

501 MKELLY  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 8:20:29am

Unless the freeze line is identified in the picture the picture tells nothing about global warming. Or tells us at what altitude the glacier is at so we can figure if it is below the freeze line.

502 Bagua  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 9:11:57am

re: #490 Charles

And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

Here are some more mistakes and use of grey material violating procedures have been found in the IPCC AR4. This one is even more shocking because the grey material (non-peer reviewed publications) did not even support the alarmist conclusions. This time, the people being cited are activists and journalists, not even scientists.

After Climategate, Pachaurigate and Glaciergate: Amazongate

AGW theory is toast. So’s Dr Rajendra Pachauri. So’s the Stern Review. So’s the credibility of the IPCC. But if you think I’m cheered by this you’re very much mistaken. I’m trying to write a Climategate book but the way things are going by the time I’m finished there won’t be anything left to say: the battle will already have been won and the only people left who still believe in Man Made Global Warming will be the eco-loon equivalents of those wartime Japanese soldiers left abandoned and forgotten on remote Pacific atolls.

Here’s the latest development, courtesy of Dr Richard North – and it’s a cracker. It seems that, not content with having lied to us about shrinking glaciers, increasing hurricanes, and rising sea levels, the IPCC’s latest assessment report also told us a complete load of porkies about the danger posed by climate change to the Amazon rainforest.

503 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 9:31:46am

re: #502 Bagua

James Delingpole is a clown, and anything he writes needs to be fact-checked thoroughly before I'll even look at it.

504 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 9:33:07am

As usual, the thread ends with a flood of denial comments.

Unfortunately, you can't change the reality of global warming by getting the last word in a comment thread at LGF.

505 MKelly  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 9:33:28am

Rongbuk Glacier is at roughly 5200 meters (17060 ft). No list of East Rongbuk found. It is at roughly 28 degrees north lat. Comparable to Corpus Christi, TX. Given the elevation the temperture at the latitude is near 0 degrees F. Not melting because of global warming.

506 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 9:35:55am

re: #505 MKelly

Rongbuk Glacier is at roughly 5200 meters (17060 ft). No list of East Rongbuk found. It is at roughly 28 degrees north lat. Comparable to Corpus Christi, TX. Given the elevation the temperture at the latitude is near 0 degrees F. Not melting because of global warming.

This is utter nonsense. I notice you don't give any links for these ridiculous claims -- because they're false, and you know it.

507 MKelly  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 10:41:56am

Charles if you don't agree with my temperture, altitude or latitude then figure your own lapse temperature. Roughly 6.5 deg C per 1000 m or 5.2 x 6.5 = 33.8 deg C (-92.8 F) from sealevel temp. Summer Corpus Christi temp is high of 92 F so the glacier is not experiencing global warming. This is rough only.

508 2oldstroke  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 1:04:04pm

Wow if all of the glaciers go away what will we do?
Oh by the way, there were no glaciers in North America 10,000 years ago.

509 JohninLondon  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 1:56:53pm

FWIW - maybe nothing - I trekked over the Thorong La pass in the Annapurna region of Nepal a few years ago, altitude 5400 metres - which looks to be be a touch higher than this glacier. The overnight lodge was at 5200 metres. No signs of snow or ice - in late October - very cold at night but sunny and beautiful weather from about 9am, all the long way over the pass and then down to Muktinath. There was snow and ice on the higher peaks, of course - 4 of them above 8000 metres in the Annapurna Himalaya.

(That Annapurna Circuit and Annapurna Sanctuary trek lasted 23 days, staying and chatting with the mountain people every night. Possibly the best trek in the world.)

510 Bagua  Mon, Jan 25, 2010 8:46:09pm

re: #503 Charles

James Delingpole is a clown, and anything he writes needs to be fact-checked thoroughly before I'll even look at it.

I did fact check the article, it appears to be completely accurate.

I'm confused why you downdinged my posts as you had asked for additional cases to be posted:

And this is the only WWF claim that's been questioned. If you have something showing other mistaken claims, please post links.

I don't post CRU stuff as you disapprove of the provenance, which I understand, but this was something you asked to be posted.


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