Roeder Guilty of Murder

US News • Views: 5,464

The jury in Wichita, Kansas, deliberated for just 37 minutes today before finding anti-abortion fanatic Scott Roeder guilty of first degree murder in the killing of Dr. George Tiller.

Roeder testified that he shot Tiller in the head May 31 in the foyer of Tiller’s church in Wichita because he believed the physician posed an “immediate danger” to unborn children. His attorneys were hoping to get a lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter for Roeder, but the judge ruled that the jury could not consider such a verdict.

Prosecutors told the judge they will seek a minimum sentence of 50 years for Roeder during his sentencing. …

In his testimony, Roeder told jurors he had considered elaborate schemes to stop the doctor, including chopping off his hands, crashing a car into him or sneaking into his home to kill him. …

But in the end, Roeder told the jury, the easiest way was to walk into Tiller’s church, put a gun to the man’s forehead and pull the trigger.

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262 comments
1 William of Orange  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 9:59:46am

Can't say I'm surprised...

2 Dante41  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 9:59:59am

Good.

Now maybe while he rots in prison, he can mull over that whole "Thou Shall Not Kill" thing, and what his ignoring of it entails.

3 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:00:50am

37 minutes...that's probably how long it took for all the jurors to finish vomiting after listening to his defense.

4 Kragar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:03:21am

Prosecution is pushing for 50 years before being eligible for parole. No death penalty option apparently.

5 jaunte  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:04:01am

That's a shorter deliberation than the last traffic jury I sat on to deliberate on a speeding offense.

6 Dante41  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:04:14am

re: #3 darthstar

37 minutes...that's probably how long it took for all the jurors to finish vomiting after listening to his defense.

More likely how long it took for the free pizza to arrive.

7 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:05:39am

This is great news - especially as it comes from a Kansas jury in the heart of the hard core anti-abortionist propaganda zone. This is where bloody Randall Terry and crowd have camped for two decades - evidently they haven't convinced the people of Witchita that abortion in the US is the "second holocaust" as they would like to.

8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:06:14am

re: #3 darthstar

Or that's how long it took each jury member time to go to the bathroom and wash their hands... before they could run in and say, "BURN HIM!"

9 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:07:24am

GOOD

Now will all the whackos who came to town for the trial please get the hell out?

10 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:07:52am

I'm surprised at the utter calm in the court room.

11 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:09:23am

Bloody Randall Terry on this trial two days ago - notice the evil dominion-speak and the call to "blood" in this statement:

"The vast majority of the pro-life movement is committed to the rule of law, with a firm commitment to end child-killing by peaceful, legal means. 37 years of tireless political efforts to defend unborn babies proves this. In this trial, that commitment remains.

"But there is another law -- the "law of blood" -- written by our Maker. It is etched in the heart of man and the laws of nature, and we cannot escape its reality or consequences.

"When the rule of law and the law of blood clash, such as in George Tiller's death, we must not pretend that there is no connection between Mr. Tiller's shedding of innocent blood and Scott Roeder's act of violence against him. There is sowing; there is reaping.

12 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:09:53am

re: #10 MandyManners

I'm surprised at the utter calm in the court room.

He admitted to first degree murder (asked for a lighter penalty, but admitted all the same). You'd have to be a Phelps or Randall Terry to support that piece of shit. There really aren't that many wackos out there, thankfully.

13 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:10:24am

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or that's how long it took each jury member time to go to the bathroom and wash their hands... before they could run in and say, "BURN HIM!"

It's just long enough to have jury room instructions read, go around the table and have everyone introduce themselves, go around again to take a preliminary vote just to see where the matter lies...and notify the bailiff that a unanimous verdict has been reached.

Apparently, there was no doubt in anyone's mind of Roeder's guilt on the charges brought. Frankly, it would have been stunning if there had been.

Sentencing is scheduled for March 9. At which point Roeder can begin his long, slow-motion rot.

14 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:10:33am

re: #11 Thanos

Bloody Randall Terry on this trial two days ago - notice the evil dominion-speak and the call to "blood" in this statement:

Randall Terry should have been a co-defendant.

15 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:10:33am

re: #11 Thanos

He thinks he's clever but he's not.

16 vxbush  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:10:38am

re: #12 darthstar

He admitted to first degree murder (asked for a lighter penalty, but admitted all the same). You'd have to be a Phelps or Randall Terry to support that piece of shit. There really aren't that many wackos out there, thankfully.

Thank goodness, indeed.

17 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:11:04am

re: #12 darthstar

He admitted to first degree murder (asked for a lighter penalty, but admitted all the same). You'd have to be a Phelps or Randall Terry to support that piece of shit. There really aren't that many wackos out there, thankfully.

I was speaking of both sides.

18 vxbush  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:11:21am

re: #15 MandyManners

He thinks he's clever but he's not.

That's not clever. That's nowhere near clever. That's trying to justify first-degree murder. Blech.

19 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:11:48am

re: #13 SixDegrees

Will Roeder be allowed to speak at his sentencing?

20 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:11:59am

Does he get the needle or Supermax?

21 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:12:14am

re: #17 MandyManners

I was speaking of both sides.

I think those who sided with Dr. Tiller are just relieved this didn't turn into the circus they feared. Had the jury acquitted him, all hell would have broken loose and Kansas would have become the symbol of backward thinking for some time to come.

22 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:12:27am
23 jaunte  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:12:36am

re: #11 Thanos

"When the rule of law and the law of blood clash, such as in George Tiller's death, we must not pretend that there is no connection between Mr. Tiller's shedding of innocent blood and Scott Roeder's act of violence against him. There is sowing; there is reaping.

Randall Terry should learn that there is free speech, and there is incitement.

24 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:13:17am

re: #10 MandyManners

I'm surprised at the utter calm in the court room.

The verdict isn't a surprise. Roeder admitted to everything during the trial.
I'm proud to say this trial didn't turn into the show that Roeder was hoping for.

25 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:13:32am

re: #18 vxbush

That's not clever. That's nowhere near clever. That's trying to justify first-degree murder. Blech.

He said everything but that it was justified in that statement.

26 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:13:50am

re: #23 jaunte

Randall Terry should learn that there is free speech, and there is incitement.

I see zero difference between his sympathy and justification of violence and that of Al Awlahki.

27 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:13:59am

re: #19 MandyManners

Will Roeder be allowed to speak at his sentencing?

Sure. Although the judge has shown little tolerance for having his courtroom turned into a political podium from which to spray theocratic spittle. If Roeder launches into a rant, I'd expect him to be cut short unless he can show that his statements bear on his sentencing.

28 William of Orange  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:14:00am

Video of the verdict.
[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

29 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:14:05am

re: #20 Alouette

Does he get the needle or Supermax?

Supermax is for federal prisoners. I reckon he'll go to some prison in Kansas.

30 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:14:29am

Dryer. bbl

31 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:14:39am

re: #29 MandyManners

Supermax is for federal prisoners. I reckon he'll go to some prison in Kansas.

I take it the death penalty is off the table?

32 William of Orange  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:14:52am

And the Roeder testamony highlights.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

33 Dante41  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:15:14am

re: #11 Thanos

Bloody Randall Terry on this trial two days ago - notice the evil dominion-speak and the call to "blood" in this statement:

You know, isn't it convenient how all these "christians" seem to forget about Christ all the time?

34 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:15:21am

re: #20 Alouette

Does he get the needle or Supermax?

No death penalty was sought; I believe the maximum sentence is life without parole. And, most likely, it'll be served in a state penetentiary, not a Federal facility.

35 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:15:23am

re: #12 darthstar

He admitted to first degree murder (asked for a lighter penalty, but admitted all the same). You'd have to be a Phelps or Randall Terry to support that piece of shit. There really aren't that many wackos out there, thankfully.

There are plenty. Check out any comments page about the verdict.
KAKE.com is pretty juicy.

36 garhighway  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:15:34am

re: #6 Dante41

More likely how long it took for the free pizza to arrive.

It takes 30 minutes for them to elect a foreman.

37 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:16:47am

re: #33 Dante41

You know, isn't it convenient how all these "christians" seem to forget about Christ all the time?

In the same statement he continues to bear false witness by quoting once again the 60k number that he made up. That number's been seriously debunked several times.

38 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:18:11am

re: #26 Thanos

I see zero difference between his sympathy and justification of violence and that of Al Awlahki.

Wow.

And you're right.

39 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:18:57am

re: #29 MandyManners

Supermax is for federal prisoners. I reckon he'll go to some prison in Kansas.

He broke the law in Louisiana...he'll go to one of these club Feds
[Link: www.bop.gov...]

40 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:21:16am

re: #39 darthstar

He broke the law in Louisiana...he'll go to one of these club Feds
[Link: www.bop.gov...]

Oops...I was thinking of O'Keefe, not Roeder. Roeder will likely go to El Dorado (maximum security prison in Kansas)...though I'm sure his lawyers will argue he should go to a medium security facility.

41 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:22:05am

Comment from the local stations live blog:

May God rain down fire and brimstone on the people of Wichita for allowing a killer like Tiller to walk among them.

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

42 jaunte  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:22:09am

re: #35 KansasMom

Interesting KAKE.com exchange here:

It's True!:
Many of the girls who had appointments scheduled with Tiller did not go through with their abortions after his death. Roeder saved lives by stopping Tiller- permanently.

Joe:
@It's True! Would you classify someone who goes around killing bartenders as someone who “saves lives” because it would lower the number of people killed by drunk drivers every year? Would you consider someone who goes around killing gas station clerks as someone who “saves lives” because they sell tobacco products which kill tens of thousands of people a year? I’m curious as to where you draw the line because they are all legal occupation, as was Tillers. Just because you have a strong religious belief about this issue doesn’t make it a justifiable murder, nor does it warrant saying Roeder “saved lives” by assassinating Tiller. Police, firemen, EMS, and numerous others save lives every day without having to kill innocent people. Saying Roeder “saved lives” by killing someone who ran a legal and law-abiding practice is a slap to the face of people who risk their lives to save others.

43 Dante41  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:24:14am

re: #41 Thanos

Yep. Give lipservice to the NT, really wish it was the OT. *sigh*

44 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:24:14am

Good news. I'm glad to hear it.

45 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:24:48am

re: #27 SixDegrees

Sure. Although the judge has shown little tolerance for having his courtroom turned into a political podium from which to spray theocratic spittle. If Roeder launches into a rant, I'd expect him to be cut short unless he can show that his statements bear on his sentencing.

Randall and his ilk now have their martyr... you can be sure, with in their circle of supporters, that they will play this up for all it's worth. It's a two-edge sword. Roder needed to be convicted, but there is a good chance that you will now see even more activity from these nuts.

46 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:25:04am
MSNBC Video

He faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. He will be sentenced March 9.
Story continues below ↓advertisement %P% your ad here

Prosecutor Nola Foulston said she would pursue a so-called "Hard 50" sentence, which would require Roeder to serve at least 50 years before he can be considered for parole.

47 William of Orange  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:25:47am

re: #40 darthstar

Oops...I was thinking of O'Keefe, not Roeder. Roeder will likely go to El Dorado (maximum security prison in Kansas)...though I'm sure his lawyers will argue he should go to a medium security facility.

What a fancy name for such a place.
I hope he gets to a max. Otherwise he'll probably go on infecting other people with his ideas....

48 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:26:13am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

Randall and his ilk now have their martyr... you can be sure, with in their circle of supporters, that they will play this up for all it's worth. It's a two-edge sword. Roder needed to be convicted, but there is a good chance that you will now see even more activity from these nuts.

Bloody Randall and his supporters are there at the trial, but I'm not finding any coverage of them, which in it's own way is good.

49 American-African  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:01am

They actually needed 37 minutes to see this nut was guilty? He's going to experience some other acts God doesn't like for the rest of his life.

50 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:07am

re: #46 lawhawk

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Works for me. He's 51.

51 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:36am

re: #46 lawhawk

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

There were two lesser counts of aggravated assault as well, which could add to the sentence.

52 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:57am

re: #41 Thanos

Comment from the local stations live blog:

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

Good lord. The comments at that local station are horrific.

Mediaman

At least Tiller won't be able to kill anymore babies! Thank you Mr. Roeder

Today, 10:04:22 AM PST

53 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:58am

re: #49 American-African

They actually needed 37 minutes to see this nut was guilty? He's going to experience some other acts God doesn't like for the rest of his life.

2 minutes to reach a verdict, 35 minutes for their lunch to be delivered.

54 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:27:58am

re: #47 William of Orange

What a fancy name for such a place.
I hope he gets to a max. Otherwise he'll probably go on infecting other people with his ideas...

I've read numerous accounts of how hardened felons have little sympathy and much contempt for child molesters. I wonder what their take on this will be!?!?

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:28:05am

re: #49 American-African

Nice.

56 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:28:44am

re: #51 Thanos

There were two lesser counts of aggravated assault as well, which could add to the sentence.

Could ,, but most likely be served concurrent, not added too

57 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:29:05am

re: #48 Thanos

Bloody Randall and his supporters are there at the trial, but I'm not finding any coverage of them, which in it's own way is good.

The whole point, for them, was to turn the trial into a circus, and use the publicity to spread their views.

Much credit goes to the judge and the media for not allowing themselves to be played in this manner.

58 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:29:32am

re: #52 Charles

It's a stronghold of Operation Rescue, they've been camped there two decades. The people of Wichita have to be almost as sick of them as the people of Topeka are sick of the Phelps clan.

59 Blueheron  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:30:06am

re: #20 Alouette

Does he get the needle or Supermax?

They won't send him to Supermax.

60 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:30:52am

re: #48 Thanos

Bloody Randall and his supporters are there at the trial, but I'm not finding any coverage of them, which in it's own way is good.

Good. But, then again, I wasn't talking about the possible attention they will get from this, I'm talking about the internal dynamics of Randall's followers. This will bubble and boil, internally, with the group, this will be another notch in their list of proof that the government is against them and G-d. The feeling of being more and more of an outcast is actually strength building for a group, it will empower them with a new and renewed sense of purpose.

Like tumbling dominoes, this will fuel the next event.

61 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:31:16am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

I'm not so sure (these kinds of attacks are infrequent at best); they couldn't get their defense to stick and while this will probably be appealed up the chain (and affirmed up the chain), the pro-murdering bastards who think that they can kill doctors who are performing lawful procedures are going find out the hard way that they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and that they do not have the law on their side.

No matter what you think of the procedure of abortion, it is a lawfully protected activity when performed pursuant to state/federal law guidelines. Roeder and his ilk can't go murder doctors who perform the procedure because they are ideologically opposed to abortion. They can't use a defense that they're saving lives by murdering a doctor performing these abortions because the procedure itself is lawful. It really is that simple.

Moreover, if (when) there are other attacks along these lines, the chances that the leadership (Terry, Phelps et al) gets implicated gets increased - putting their entire movement in jeopardy.

62 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:31:24am

Neo-Nazis, Militants Eye Tea Party for Recruitment (VIDEO)

At 11:15 on Friday, in an online Patriot Caucus discussion forum, David E. Parsons wrote a post called "Militia Training Videos," with links to videos by Mark Koernke, a leading figure in the American militia movement, and his followers.

One video linked to from the Patriot Caucus forum (embedded below) features militiamen emerging from a smoke-screened forest, armed with assault rifles, with the instructions: "Train as you will fight... So that you will fight as you have trained!!!"
....
Eric Odom, executive director of American Liberty Alliance, created the Patriot Caucus website on which the militia recruitment post was made. He has yet to respond to a January 22 email informing him of the post. At time of publication, the post was still up.

But militants are not the only ones infiltrating the Tea Party movement. The white power movement views Tea Parties as opportunities to recruit as well as incite violence, as is evidenced by postings on the white power website Stormfront:
.....
On Jan. 22 the Council of Conservative Citizens attended a Florida Tea Party, where members distributed two boxes of their newsletter and 250 Council business cards. The CofCC is the political face of the white power movement. Their mission statement declares that they "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people."

63 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:33:53am

re: #58 Thanos

It's a stronghold of Operation Rescue, they've been camped there two decades. The people of Wichita have to be almost as sick of them as the people of Topeka are sick of the Phelps clan.

The phelps clan lives just down the road, IIRC.

64 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:34:02am

re: #61 lawhawk

I'm not so sure (these kinds of attacks are infrequent at best); they couldn't get their defense to stick and while this will probably be appealed up the chain (and affirmed up the chain), the pro-murdering bastards who think that they can kill doctors who are performing lawful procedures are going find out the hard way that they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and that they do not have the law on their side.

No matter what you think of the procedure of abortion, it is a lawfully protected activity when performed pursuant to state/federal law guidelines. Roeder and his ilk can't go murder doctors who perform the procedure because they are ideologically opposed to abortion. They can't use a defense that they're saving lives by murdering a doctor performing these abortions because the procedure itself is lawful. It really is that simple.

Moreover, if (when) there are other attacks along these lines, the chances that the leadership (Terry, Phelps et al) gets implicated gets increased - putting their entire movement in jeopardy.

They don't care... see my re: #60 Walter L. Newton... I've belong to cults, to similar sorts of groups. They want this, it build more unity, fuels the group dynamics, it's a powerful feeling to be a small group against the many. It carries more power than you think and is capable of clouding clear thinking of the most logical people. That's why cults attract so many educated people.

65 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:39:38am

Lots of support for Roeder at Free Republic too.

Notice that some of the remaining semi-sane inmates try to start the thread by disapproving of Roeder and agreeing with the verdict, before the kooks take over and it turns into another "Yay murder!" thread.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

66 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:39:53am

re: #63 RogueOne

Topeka is due West on 70, Wichita is SW on 35, they are a ways apart, but it's not a terribly long drive one place to the other.

[Link: maps.google.com...]

67 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:40:21am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

attended a Florida Tea Party, where members distributed two boxes of their newsletter and 250 Council business cards

Later in the day, city sanitation workers complained that they had to remove garbage baskets filled with newletters and 250 Council business cards !
/

68 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:40:24am

re: #65 Charles

Yech. Do i have to notice, or can i just take your word for it...?

69 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:40:27am

re: #42 jaunte

Interesting KAKE.com exchange here:

re: #59 Blueheron

They won't send him to Supermax.

I'll be happy if he goes to a max (not supermax) security prison, though I suspect there will be a big push to put him in a medium security facility--the mentally unstable argument will be strong leading up to his sentencing.

70 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:41:24am

re: #68 Aceofwhat?

Yech. Do i have to notice, or can i just take your word for it...?

I'll sit this one out also!

!

71 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:42:13am

re: #61 lawhawk

They can't use a defense that they're saving lives by murdering a doctor performing these abortions because the procedure itself is lawful. It really is that simple.

Perhaps it cannot be used as a legal defense. It will however remain as their justification for such acts.

72 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:43:15am

re: #65 Charles

Lots of support for Roeder at Free Republic too.

Notice that some of the remaining semi-sane inmates try to start the thread by disapproving of Roeder and agreeing with the verdict, before the kooks take over and it turns into another "Yay murder!" thread.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

I knew better than to follow that link, but I clicked it anyway. Weird place, that.

73 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:43:26am

if the death penalty were an option, would all the death penalty advocates be calling for roeder's execution? I would.

74 baier  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:44:26am

He's guilty of much more than Murder. It's the human race, and he lost.

75 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:44:36am

re: #66 Thanos

Topeka is due West on 70, Wichita is SW on 35, they are a ways apart, but it's not a terribly long drive one place to the other.

[Link: maps.google.com...]

Gotta note that the Patriot Guard was founded in Mulvane. Just a 30 minute drive from downtown Wichita.

76 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:46:16am

re: #65 Charles

Wow - that freakazoid Ronbo is still posting there. Remember when he "went on patrol" and the whole rightwing blogosphere was convinced that he committed suicide? I don't think WZ ever backed down from the claim even though the guy's still posting on his nutball blog.

77 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:46:19am

Reaction from Free Republic:

"If I had been on that jury, I’d voted Roeder “not guilty” because he stopped an arrogant mass murderer dead in his tracks."


"While many elements of this situation may remain in dispute for years to come, there is one thing of which we can be completely assured: George Tiller will not suck the brains out of another child or harvest their organs for profit any more."


"Legally guilty, but morally justified."

Third Reich analogies are popular:

"In my humble opinion, Roeder’s (act) was tantamount to the actions of those heroic Czech freedom fighters in 1942 who gunned down the monster Reinhard Heyrich, the head of the dread RHSA, the driving force behind the Holocaust and “The Hangman of Prague.”"


"Technically correct verdict. By the law, he was guilty.
Of course, Claus von Stauffenberg was also guilty of attempting to murder Adolf Hitler."


To be fair, many Freepers support the verdict and are hammering the pro-murder wing. This kind of sentiment is fairly common:

On the witness stand (and later on national TV) the guy confessed to every detail of the murder he committed including where in the head he shot Tiller. There is no defending premeditated murder.


And if you ask me, he should fry for premeditated murder.
78 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:47:15am

re: #74 baier

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

79 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:47:45am

the biggest problem with not executing roeder is that he'll go into the joint and be a rock star to the aryan nations gangs. he should be placed in solitary confinenemt and not be allowed to mix with other prisoners.

80 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:47:57am

re: #65 Charles


being conservative needs to be illegal

81 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:48:14am

re: #65 Charles

There are plenty of them on the FoxNews blog, too...this guy apparently doesn't know the God I know, and he's setting me back about 500 years.


"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." John 13:15. God keep Scott Roeder "...in the palm of His hand".

Disgusting. If you can twist that beautiful verse to justify this, you can twist it to justify anything.

82 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:48:19am

I'd be scared out of my wits if I was one of the jurors.

83 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:48:40am

re: #80 SpaceJesus

being conservative needs to be illegal

good one.

GAZE

84 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:49:00am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

Why are you talking for all of us? Pretty damn pretentious on your part.

85 Olsonist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:49:26am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

That's ok. That's called disagreement. And who knows, maybe with enough disagreement you might convince us to change our minds. Just don't kill anyone and we're cool.

86 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:49:41am

re: #65 Charles

Lots of support for Roeder at Free Republic too.

Notice that some of the remaining semi-sane inmates try to start the thread by disapproving of Roeder and agreeing with the verdict, before the kooks take over and it turns into another "Yay murder!" thread.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Whatever. Freep has become a shithole of bad craziness. It's hard to believe that I came to LGF by way of Freep.

87 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:49:52am

re: #84 Walter L. Newton

Just one man's opinion, that's all.

88 baier  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:07am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

Nobody likes abortion. I bet if you tried to put yourself in the shoes of someone that had an abortion you'd see you're the one that is lost.

89 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:16am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

We? Who's we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

90 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:19am

re: #80 SpaceJesus

being conservative needs to be illegal

LOL .... you've lost a few mph off your fastball ...

91 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:21am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

If you don't like abortion, get a vasectomy.

Seriously, it's a legal medical procedure, and not something women do because they're bored and want a little excitement. If you want to reduce abortions, teach girls AND BOYS to use birth control. Start a "condoms are cool" campaign. But quit with the fake outrage.

92 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:27am

re: #85 Olsonist

That's ok. That's called disagreement. And who knows, maybe with enough disagreement you might convince us to change our minds. Just don't kill anyone and we're cool.

well done, that-

93 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:36am

re: #87 Mr. Hammer

Just one man's opinion, that's all.

You were talking for all of us. Not just opinion. Jerk.

94 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:50:57am

re: #80 SpaceJesus

being conservative needs to be illegal

woke up on the wrong side of the cloud this morning, did ya !?!?

95 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:51:21am

American Legal System, F*** YEAH!

96 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:51:41am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Prosecution is pushing for 50 years before being eligible for parole. No death penalty option apparently.

...which is Teh SuXxOr.

97 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:52:17am

re: #81 Aceofwhat?

Here's another one....

God Bless Scott Roeder. He had the courage to act against the real murderer of thousands while a handful of righteous cowards pass judgment on him and the most of us stay silent. All who support killing babies will be damned in the end. All who do nothing to protect the lives of the little ones will also be damned. As long as America allows the killing of babies, it will be damned as reflected by the horrible presidency of Bush and the more horrible presidency of Obama. Nothing will go right for America until we stop the killing of our children.
January 29, 2010 at 1:08 PM


Yeesh.

98 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:52:45am

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Not so. I wrote... "I believe..."

Just my opinion.

99 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:52:49am

re: #73 _RememberTonyC

if the death penalty were an option, would all the death penalty advocates be calling for roeder's execution? I would.

Tough call. I'd support a death sentence, but keep in mind that martyrdom is what this guy wants more than anything, and publicity is what he wants failing that. A few decades of time out will exert far more punishment on him than a relatively quick death, although it does deprive society of the satisfaction of knowing he's been snuffed.

100 baier  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:11am

re: #97 Killgore Trout

What sickos.

101 anduril3019  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:12am

re: #73 _RememberTonyC

Absolutely.

I'm anti-abortion, by the way.

102 jaunte  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:23am

re: #96 The Sanity Inspector

...which is Teh SuXxOr.

I agree with Walter's take on that; years and years of prison time is worse that the death penalty.

103 jaunte  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:36am

than...

104 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:48am

re: #80 SpaceJesus

being conservative needs to be illegal

But I got a permit!

105 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:54am

re: #98 Mr. Hammer

Not so. I wrote... "I believe..."

Just my opinion.

Then I will amend my statement... don't talk for me... jerk. Got it?

106 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:53:56am

re: #97 Killgore Trout

That sounds like it was left by one of the Phelps....

107 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:54:28am

re: #106 KansasMom

That sounds like it was left by one of the Phelps...

or a certain ex-governor.

108 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:54:38am

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

Got it, sir. I wouldn't presume.

109 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:55:23am

re: #81 Aceofwhat?

There are plenty of them on the FoxNews blog, too...this guy apparently doesn't know the God I know, and he's setting me back about 500 years.


"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." John 13:15. God keep Scott Roeder "...in the palm of His hand".

Disgusting. If you can twist that beautiful verse to justify this, you can twist it to justify anything.

You'd think that people who believe that abortion is murder could understand that murder is murder, too.

110 Olsonist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:55:31am

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

You were talking for all of us. Not just opinion. Jerk.

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

No, he was expressing his opinion. He's anti-abortion which is a perfectly acceptable point of view. I happen to be pro-choice, another perfectly acceptable point of view.

But if he starts defending Roeder ....

111 What, me worry?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:55:35am

The man is no different than an Islamic extremist. He's proud of what he did. He's martyring himself.

I don't support the death penalty (does Kansas have it?) and I think it would probably ironic in this case, but I would totally support it here.

112 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:55:46am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

Flamebait.

113 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:56:21am

bbiab all

114 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:56:48am

OT - I'm out of here, I'm on the closing shift at the thrift store... and then a three day weekend (we have a rotating weekend schedule)... I will be looking forward to conversing on LGF the next three days. Lot's of interesting things developing...

CRU guilty of with holding public information, TIME magazine COUNTING Obama's words (oh, the outrage) and the season six opener of LOST on Tuesday.

See ya later.

115 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:56:49am

re: #110 Olsonist

I would never

116 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:57:06am

re: #112 SixDegrees

Flamebait.

35 comments in 6 years...at least it isn't an every day thing.

117 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:57:24am

re: #50 SixDegrees

Works for me. He's 51.

This joke is sort of tasteless but I can't help myself.

Be hard to hold a gun when you need both hands on your walker....

118 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:57:41am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

Bye Walter...enjoy your weekend.

119 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:57:50am

re: #99 SixDegrees

Tough call. I'd support a death sentence, but keep in mind that martyrdom is what this guy wants more than anything, and publicity is what he wants failing that. A few decades of time out will exert far more punishment on him than a relatively quick death, although it does deprive society of the satisfaction of knowing he's been snuffed.


then toss his ass in solitary for the rest of his days. dude did the crime, now make dude do hard time. no contact with other prisoners except for the barest of interaction.

120 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:57:58am

re: #116 darthstar

35 comments in 6 years...at least it isn't an every day thing.

he's pacing himself!

121 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:58:17am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

Have a nice day, sir.

122 What, me worry?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:58:34am

re: #99 SixDegrees

Tough call. I'd support a death sentence, but keep in mind that martyrdom is what this guy wants more than anything, and publicity is what he wants failing that. A few decades of time out will exert far more punishment on him than a relatively quick death, although it does deprive society of the satisfaction of knowing he's been snuffed.

He's already got the martyr thing going on.

I don't support the death penalty. #1 making a mistake (although with DNA that's getting more accurate), #2 it's costly because they get appeals which costs the state a lot of money and they usually sit on death row at least 20-25 years (appeals every 7 years). But I would support the death penalty for the cold blooded, senseless killing of this man.

123 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:59:19am

re: #91 darthstar

If you don't like abortion, get a vasectomy.

Seriously, it's a legal medical procedure, and not something women do because they're bored and want a little excitement.

Some do. (bad taste, I know, but I couldn't resist posting this Onion editorial.)

124 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:59:44am

re: #119 _RememberTonyC

then toss his ass in solitary for the rest of his days. dude did the crime, now make dude do hard time. no contact with other prisoners except for the barest of interaction.

Nope...put him in with the general population. Let him get to know others who are just like him...and put it on YouTube...especially when he raises a moral obligation to someone doing drugs or some other activity that doesn't mesh with his 'values.'

125 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:00:00am

re: #124 darthstar

Nope...put him in with the general population. Let him get to know others who are just like him...and put it on YouTube...especially when he raises a moral obligation to someone doing drugs or some other activity that doesn't mesh with his 'values.'

oops...objection, not obligation.

126 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:00:12am

re: #119 _RememberTonyC

then toss his ass in solitary for the rest of his days. dude did the crime, now make dude do hard time. no contact with other prisoners except for the barest of interaction.

If he is not kept in solitary, he will soon collect a crowd of Aryan Brotherhood homeys to surround him.

127 captdiggs  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:00:22am

Just thankful this was not the OJ jury.
37 minutes---ha!

128 Olsonist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:00:53am

re: #124 darthstar

I was gonna say. General population. Definitely.

129 What, me worry?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:00:57am

I do hope that whatever his sentence is, he gets no chance of parole. It would be a terrible thing otherwise.

130 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:01:13am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.

When abortion on demand isn't the law of the land innocent women die with coathangers in their hands....

131 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:01:18am

re: #127 captdiggs

Just thankful this was not the OJ jury.
37 minutes---ha!

Keep that jury handy...I'd like to use them for the KSM trial.

132 donna quixote  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:01:52am

I think these 'Christian' zealots are comparable to the rabid Muslims who kill their daughters because they have strayed too far from fundamentalist's views. They have given Christianity a bad name.

133 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:02:05am

re: #119 _RememberTonyC

then toss his ass in solitary for the rest of his days. dude did the crime, now make dude do hard time. no contact with other prisoners except for the barest of interaction.

That works for me as well, but the circumstances of his incarceration are up to the prison officials, not me, not even the judge or jury sentencing him. Most likely, he'll wind up in the GP unless his safety or his behavior dictate otherwise.

Hard to say how that'll work out.

134 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:02:05am

It's been discussed ad infinitum I know, but the people defending this guy using God or Christian doctrine as their basis, never touch that the man was murdered in his church.

135 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:02:49am

If Palin is the candidate for 2012 it puts Alaska in play as a possible Obama win...
[Link: publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com...]

Palin hasn't seen much slippage with the Republican base in her home state- 78% of them view her positively to just 15% unfavorable. But she's disliked by more than half of independents (36/55) and Democrats (24/74). Her standing in Alaska also reflects a reverse gender gap that we've found in opinion about Palin on several of our polls- her net favorability is +8 with men but -5 with women.

The trends in Palin's Alaska numbers reveal the same fundamental truths as her national ones- she's beloved by the Republican base and loathed by most everyone else. Not a good formula for victory in 2012.

136 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:02:52am

re: #127 captdiggs

Just thankful this was not the OJ jury.
37 minutes---ha!

Yes, we should remember to give Kansans a little credit for this.

137 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:03:05am

re: #130 jamesfirecat

Some do. I know. It's tragic.

138 What, me worry?  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:03:19am

re: #123 Mad Al-Jaffee

Some do. (bad taste, I know, but I couldn't resist posting this Onion editorial.)

Typical over the top Onion. I can't figure out if I like it or I don't!

139 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:04:20am

re: #134 Stanley Sea

It's been discussed ad infinitum I know, but the people defending this guy using God or Christian doctrine as their basis, never touch that the man was murdered in his church.

Well, that would raise some obvious issues. Church is supposed to be a place of God, and sacred. To acknowledge that this took place in a house of worship would be something they would have difficulty rationalizing.

140 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:04:27am

re: #99 SixDegrees

Tough call. I'd support a death sentence, but keep in mind that martyrdom is what this guy wants more than anything, and publicity is what he wants failing that. A few decades of time out will exert far more punishment on him than a relatively quick death, although it does deprive society of the satisfaction of knowing he's been snuffed.

Lets split the difference and sentence him to death by cellular atrophy nasty form of torture, takes decades as the subjects body falls apart bit by bit, one by one organs start to fail, limbs start to freeze up, teeth fall out....

141 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:04:37am

re: #138 marjoriemoon

Typical over the top Onion. I can't figure out if I like it or I don't!

I won't post their story about Jesus shooting up an abortion clinic. Maybe not.

142 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:05:05am

re: #136 The Sanity Inspector

Yes, we should remember to give Kansans a little credit for this.

Yes please do - one of the things I like about Kansas is that Justice is pretty sure and swift here. In another state this trial might have lasted two years and been media circus.

143 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:05:24am

re: #109 The Sanity Inspector

You'd think that people who believe that abortion is murder could understand that murder is murder, too.

Reminds me of that line from Psyche "Meat is murder!" "But murder is also murder!"

144 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:06:19am

re: #109 The Sanity Inspector

You'd think that people who believe that abortion is murder could understand that murder is murder, too.

I think most of us do.

145 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:06:41am

re: #130 jamesfirecat

When abortion on demand isn't the law of the land innocent women die with coathangers in their hands...

Yes, but women are irrelevant. It's all about the fetus to these people. Women are merely vessels to them whose sole purpose is to produce babies. Any woman who dies in a botched abortion, in their eyes, deserves it and is damned to hell. They're truly fucked in the head, Phelps, Roeder, Terry, and the rest of them.

146 sffilk  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:07:49am

Good.

147 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:07:53am

re: #143 jamesfirecat

Reminds me of that line from Psyche "Meat is murder!" "But murder is also murder!"

I've got a "Meat is murder...tasty, tasty murder" t-shirt from when I used to work at cafepress.

148 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #140 jamesfirecat

Lets split the difference and sentence him to death by cellular atrophy nasty form of torture, takes decades as the subjects body falls apart bit by bit, one by one organs start to fail, limbs start to freeze up, teeth fall out...

Or anything like that.. darkness - imprisoning me - all I see - absolute horror

149 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:08:36am

re: #137 Mr. Hammer

Some do. I know. It's tragic.

More or less tragic than how "we all loose' when abortion is legal?

150 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:09:34am

re: #145 darthstar

Yes, but women are irrelevant. It's all about the fetus to these people. Women are merely vessels to them whose sole purpose is to produce babies. Any woman who dies in a botched abortion, in their eyes, deserves it and is damned to hell. They're truly fucked in the head, Phelps, Roeder, Terry, and the rest of them.

Does that mean we can split the difference and allow abortion so long as its a girl who would just grow up into another useless woman?

151 Olsonist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:09:54am

re: #144 Mr. Hammer

I think most of us do.

I think most of you do as well. But I don't think any of you do enough to put stop the murders of abortion providers. You disagree with them just a little too silently in my opinion to the point of acquiescence.

152 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:10:48am

re: #151 Olsonist

I think most of you do as well. But I don't think any of you do enough to put stop the murders of abortion providers. You disagree with them just a little too silently in my opinion to the point of acquiescence.

...and encouragement.

153 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:11:20am

re: #126 Alouette

If he is not kept in solitary, he will soon collect a crowd of Aryan Brotherhood homeys to surround him.

exactly ... he'll be a rock star to them ... that cannot be allowed to happen.

154 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:11:20am

re: #145 darthstar

Yes, but women are irrelevant. It's all about the fetus to these people. Women are merely vessels to them whose sole purpose is to produce babies. Any woman who dies in a botched abortion, in their eyes, deserves it and is damned to hell. They're truly fucked in the head, Phelps, Roeder, Terry, and the rest of them.

Whom do you mean by "these people"? The murderers, or pro-life people in general?

155 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:13:22am

re: #136 The Sanity Inspector

Yes, we should remember to give Kansans a little credit for this.

this was the ultimate "no brainer." even arkansas couldn't have screwed this one up.

156 simoom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:13:30am

For anyone who missed the President at the House Republican Retreat, C-Span has the full hour and a half video up here:
[Link: www.cspan.org...]

I can't remember seeing anything like it -- a President taking adversarial questions directly from the opposition party on live television.

157 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:13:32am

re: #154 Mr. Hammer

Whom do you mean by "these people"? The murderers, or pro-life people in general?

Any "pro lifer" who wants to decrease the number of abortions but is also against contraceptives being freely and widely available doesn't really hate abortion, he just hates people enjoying sex.

158 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:13:51am

re: #152 SixDegrees

What do you suggest "we" do?

159 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:15:19am

if anyone here is from Arkansas, sorry for the snark.

160 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:15:30am

re: #158 Mr. Hammer

What do you suggest "we" do?

Shut the fuck up and mind your own business instead of everyone else's.

161 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:15:40am

Wow, Fox News is even worse than the Wichita local blog.

[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com...]

BP

God Bless Scott Roeder. He had the courage to act against the real murderer of thousands while a handful of righteous cowards pass judgment on him and the most of us stay silent. All who support killing babies will be damned in the end. All who do nothing to protect the lives of the little ones will also be damned. As long as America allows the killing of babies, it will be damned as reflected by the horrible presidency of Bush and the more horrible presidency of Obama. Nothing will go right for America until we stop the killing of our children.

January 29, 2010 at 1:08 PM

162 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:15:46am

re: #156 simoom

For anyone who missed the President at the House Republican Retreat, C-Span has the full hour and a half video up here:
[Link: www.cspan.org...]

I can't remember seeing anything like it -- a President taking adversarial questions directly from the opposition party on live television.

Good find, thanks.

163 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:16:24am

re: #157 jamesfirecat

he just hates people enjoying sex.

Well, that might be true... but not the other part, honestly...

164 webevintage  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:16:30am

re: #156 simoom

For anyone who missed the President at the House Republican Retreat, C-Span has the full hour and a half video up here:
[Link: www.cspan.org...]

I can't remember seeing anything like it -- a President taking adversarial questions directly from the opposition party on live television.

I'm watching it right now...

165 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:02am

re: #158 Mr. Hammer

What do you suggest "we" do?

When you go to church on Sunday, and hear a hateful remark about Tiller or something positive about Roeder or his actions.....I suggest you put that person in their place.
I have no idea how you personally respond to such comments, but I know most of the time they are either met with agreement or just ignored.

166 Olsonist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:06am

re: #158 Mr. Hammer

What do you suggest "we" do?

I would suggest that you make your opinion known and vote. But if anyone of you advocates violence you should report them to the police and exclude them from your group.

167 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:11am

BBL.

168 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:13am

re: #160 SixDegrees

wow. ok then.

169 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:14am

re: #161 Charles

Wow, Fox News is even worse than the Wichita local blog.

[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com...]

Charles I hate to say this, but I think Killgore already posted that particular quote at 97....

170 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:17:26am

re: #163 Mr. Hammer

Well, that might be true... but not the other part, honestly...

What "other part" exactly?

171 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:18:21am

re: #166 Olsonist

I couldn't agree with you more.

172 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:20:31am

re: #150 jamesfirecat

Does that mean we can split the difference and allow abortion so long as its a girl who would just grow up into another useless woman?

In some cultures, yes. Abortions by gender became common in some parts of India when people realized ultra-sound could determine the baby's sex.

But no, all snark aside it's not exactly what I meant.

173 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:20:33am

re: #165 KansasMom

When you go to church on Sunday, and hear a hateful remark about Tiller or something positive about Roeder or his actions...I suggest you put that person in their place.
I have no idea how you personally respond to such comments, but I know most of the time they are either met with agreement or just ignored.

Honestly that's not been my experience at all. Has it been your experience at your church?

174 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:21:14am

re: #164 webevintage

I'm watching it right now...

I watched it live...good stuff. Definitely worth listening to.

175 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:22:14am

re: #170 jamesfirecat

This other part: "but women are irrelevant. It's all about the fetus to these people. Women are merely vessels to them whose sole purpose is to produce babies. Any woman who dies in a botched abortion, in their eyes, deserves it and is damned to hell"

I don't believe that. Nobody I know does.

176 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:22:49am

re: #172 darthstar

In some cultures, yes. Abortions by gender became common in some parts of India when people realized ultra-sound could determine the baby's sex.

But no, all snark aside it's not exactly what I meant.

It disgusts me when I find out that there are people (those other cultures) where my snark is taken seriously.

Don't worry I never thought you were advocating that idea, just explaining how other people felt on the issue.

177 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:23:49am

re: #175 Mr. Hammer

This other part: "but women are irrelevant. It's all about the fetus to these people. Women are merely vessels to them whose sole purpose is to produce babies. Any woman who dies in a botched abortion, in their eyes, deserves it and is damned to hell"

I don't believe that. Nobody I know does.

"Nobody does" You're sort of going out on a limb there my friend, nobody ever went broke betting against how crazy, insensative or evil humans can be...

178 zora  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:24:48am

ot..... The republican house retreat video- with Obama answering questions is up on the c-span website. Worth watching.

179 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:25:01am

re: #177 jamesfirecat

"Nobody does" You're sort of going out on a limb there my friend, nobody ever went broke betting against how crazy, insensative or evil humans can be...

No sir. Just nobody I know feels that way. That's all.

180 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:26:20am

re: #179 Mr. Hammer

No sir. Just nobody I know feels that way. That's all.

Okay then, fair enough.

181 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:26:31am

re: #178 zora

ot... The republican house retreat video- with Obama answering questions is up on the c-span website. Worth watching.

I was just going through some of the clips on youtube....

Youtube Video

It's interesting and a bit more substantive than the usual canned speeches.

182 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:26:49am

re: #144 Mr. Hammer

I think most of us do.

Thank goodness. It's just that the internet is a great amplifier of the fringes.

183 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:27:08am

re: #161 Charles

Wow, Fox News is even worse than the Wichita local blog.

[Link: liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com...]

It's interesting how graphic the anti-abortion people enjoy getting. Describing the dismembering of arms, legs, and other features. Of course it's a graphic and bloody procedure. Nobody denies that. But this form of emotional manipulation ignores the fact that abortion is a legal medical procedure. Period. I'm just glad they don't believe in protecting the appendix.

184 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:27:40am

re: #182 The Sanity Inspector

Well said!

185 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #173 Mr. Hammer

Honestly that's not been my experience at all. Has it been your experience at your church?

Its been my experience everywhere. The phrase "Tiller the baby killer" is all over the place.

186 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:30:02am

re: #156 simoom

For anyone who missed the President at the House Republican Retreat, C-Span has the full hour and a half video up here:
[Link: www.cspan.org...]

I can't remember seeing anything like it -- a President taking adversarial questions directly from the opposition party on live television.

Rush was hatin' on it today, sight unseen.

187 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:30:20am

re: #181 Killgore Trout

I was impressed that there seemed to be a reasonably honest and civil debate going on but I guess not.....
Republican Interrupts President with "You're Lying" (Turn Up Your Speakers)

Youtube Video

*sigh*

188 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:31:10am

re: #160 SixDegrees

Shut the fuck up and mind your own business instead of everyone else's.

Classy.

189 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:32:02am

From Obama at the retreat:

"So all I'm saying is, we've gotta close the gap a little bit between the rhetoric and the reality. I'm not suggesting that we're gonna agree on everything, whether it's on health care or energy or what have you.

But if the way these issues are being presented by the Republicans is that this is some wild-eyed plot to impose huge government in every aspect of our lives, what happens is you guys don't have a lot of room to negotiate with me.

The fact is that many of you, if you voted with the administration on something, are politically vulnerable with your own base in your own party. You've given yourselves very little room to work in a bipartisan fashion because what you've told your constituents is this guy is doing all kinds of crazy stuff that's gonna destroy America."

My bold. Now, I have to get to work.

190 simoom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:35:25am

Luke Russert tweets:

GOP aides telling me it was a mistake to allow cameras into Obama's QA with GOP members. Allowed BO to refute GOP for 1.5 hours on TV
191 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:35:51am

re: #189 Stanley Sea

From Obama at the retreat:

The fact is that many of you, if you voted with the administration on something, are politically vulnerable with your own base in your own party. You've given yourselves very little room to work in a bipartisan fashion because what you've told your constituents is this guy is doing all kinds of crazy stuff that's gonna destroy America."


My bold. Now, I have to get to work.

Good for President Obama, pointing out to the Republicans the corner they've painted themselves into. Now, what will they do about it? (my guess: Nothing.)

192 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:36:03am

re: #187 Killgore Trout

I was impressed that there seemed to be a reasonably honest and civil debate going on but I guess not...
Republican Interrupts President with "You're Lying" (Turn Up Your Speakers)

[Video]

*sigh*

Wouldn;t have come to all this (special meetings and all the animus) if he had included the repbubs in the 'debate" and negotiations from day one

remember ,,, "WE WON!" and ""But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

193 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:37:49am

re: #189 Stanley Sea

He has correctly identified that Republicans see Obama's agenda as growing the government way too much. He did this a tad condescendingly too. So is he suggesting that Republicans should just stop believing that?

194 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:37:58am

re: #187 Killgore Trout

I was impressed that there seemed to be a reasonably honest and civil debate going on but I guess not...
Republican Interrupts President with "You're Lying" (Turn Up Your Speakers)

[Video]*sigh*

Here's the exchange in context....
Hensarling Questions Obama

Youtube Video

The "you're lying, Mr. President" happens about 5:20. Very rude.

195 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:39:34am

re: #190 simoom

Luke Russert tweets:

Priceless. I guess they thought they'd give him a whuppin'...and the best part is, he wants to have these meetings on a monthly basis (per his SOTU address). In other words, he's saying "I'll come and talk to you guys once a month and answer your questions, and I'll repeat what I've said before and you've ignored...so stop being so stubborn or I'll micro-manage your asses."

196 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:39:45am

re: #187 Killgore Trout

That's not striking me as being outrageously uncivil. If that's the worst thing that happens, I'd say "extremely civil" applies.

197 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:40:25am

re: #191 darthstar

Good for President Obama, pointing out to the Republicans the corner they've painted themselves into. Now, what will they do about it? (my guess: Nothing.)

obama is overstating that a bit. he's gotta learn to take "incoming fire" better than he has so far. he's the POTUS and the POTUS can't be so soft. his policies are open to scrutiny, just like every other POTUS.

198 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #191 darthstar

Good for President Obama, pointing out to the Republicans the corner they've painted themselves into. Now, what will they do about it? (my guess: Nothing.)

Painted themselves into a corner? How about put there from day one!?!?
"WE WON!" and ""But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

199 webevintage  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:42:01am

re: #187 Killgore Trout

I was impressed that there seemed to be a reasonably honest and civil debate going on but I guess not...
Republican Interrupts President with "You're Lying" (Turn Up Your Speakers)


The best part is he just ignored him and moved on.
Who ever said that is lucky Michelle was not there because she has a pissed "WTH? Did you just say" mom face that could make ones brain explode.
That lady has superpowers.

200 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:42:39am

re: #198 sattv4u2

Painted themselves into a corner? How about put there from day one!?!?
"WE WON!" and ""But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

Agreed. The democrats created a grossly partisan environment, then excluded republicans from the dialog entirely, and now are trying to cry obstructionism.

201 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:43:29am

re: #197 _RememberTonyC

obama is overstating that a bit. he's gotta learn to take "incoming fire" better than he has so far. he's the POTUS and the POTUS can't be so soft. his policies are open to scrutiny, just like every other POTUS.

He took incoming fire quite well, I thought. And he responded to their questions. Can you name another president who openly engaged the opposition?

re: #198 sattv4u2

Painted themselves into a corner? How about put there from day one!?!?
"WE WON!" and ""But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."


Same question to you. Can you name another president who openly engaged the opposition?

202 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:44:46am

re: #200 cliffster

Agreed. The democrats created a grossly partisan environment, then excluded republicans from the dialog entirely, and now are trying to cry obstructionism.

During the Bush years, the Republicans rammed policy through with only a 53 seat majority. If anything, the Democrats have spent the last year capitulating on every issue, and still haven't gotten a single Republican to vote for anything.

203 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:44:58am

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

With abortion on demand the law of the land, I believe we've all lost.


what the hell

204 darthstar  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:46:03am

re: #203 SpaceJesus

what the hell

Mr. Hammer's been hammered on that one for a while...

205 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:46:31am

re: #202 darthstar

During the Bush years, the Republicans rammed policy through with only a 53 seat majority. If anything, the Democrats have spent the last year capitulating on every issue, and still haven't gotten a single Republican to vote for anything.

Well we got some of them not to fillibuster us on the jobs thing, so they're not all die hard Neo-hoverites looking to plunge America into the Greater Depression....

206 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:47:54am

re: #157 jamesfirecat

Any "pro lifer" who wants to decrease the number of abortions but is also against contraceptives being freely and widely available doesn't really hate abortion, he just hates people enjoying sex.

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for ages. For most of these fanatics, it's not about reducing the number of abortions. It's about controlling the sexuality of others, particularly women.

If these "pro-life" fanatics actually cared about reducing abortions, they'd campaign to make birth control cheaper and easier to come by. They'd move for birth control to be covered by insurance, just like Viagra is. They'd work hard to offer solid, comprehensive sex education in schools, and to make using birth control cool for both genders.

207 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:48:19am

re: #187 Killgore Trout

I was impressed that there seemed to be a reasonably honest and civil debate going on but I guess not...
Republican Interrupts President with "You're Lying" (Turn Up Your Speakers)

[Video]

*sigh*

Actually, what he said was "that'd be fine, Mr. President". Watch the C-Span feed and scroll through to the 1:20 mark to hear the whole exchange.

208 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:48:20am

re: #202 darthstar

During the Bush years, the Republicans rammed policy through with only a 53 seat majority. If anything, the Democrats have spent the last year capitulating on every issue, and still haven't gotten a single Republican to vote for anything.

But capitulating to who? If you will think back through the debates, it was this person or that person who was holding out, but it was always a more conservative democrat, or an anti-abortion democrat.

209 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:48:50am

re: #201 darthstar

Same question to you. Can you name another president who openly engaged the opposition?

GWB ,,, Teddy Kennedy was a frequent visitor at night to the White House during the start of Bush's 1st term

210 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:49:10am

re: #208 cliffster

In several cases, if you'll remember, they were won over by offering a financial incentive to their states. This sort of thing is democrats behaving badly, and no amount of blaming republicans can change that.

211 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:49:36am

re: #206 Lidane

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for ages. For most of these fanatics, it's not about reducing the number of abortions. It's about controlling the sexuality of others, particularly women.

If these "pro-life" fanatics actually cared about reducing abortions, they'd campaign to make birth control cheaper and easier to come by. They'd move for birth control to be covered by insurance, just like Viagra is. They'd work hard to offer solid, comprehensive sex education in schools, and to make using birth control cool for both genders.

An ounce of family is worth a ton of government.

212 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:51:44am

re: #201 darthstar

Same question to you. Can you name another president who openly engaged the opposition?

i'm glad he took the incoming fire well .... it's a skill he has shown no inclination to handle well before today. maybe he finally realizes he needs to "know what he doesn't know," and this is a new skill he's learning. He'd better.

213 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:52:07am

re: #206 Lidane

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for ages. For most of these fanatics, it's not about reducing the number of abortions. It's about controlling the sexuality of others, particularly women.

If these "pro-life" fanatics actually cared about reducing abortions, they'd campaign to make birth control cheaper and easier to come by. They'd move for birth control to be covered by insurance, just like Viagra is. They'd work hard to offer solid, comprehensive sex education in schools, and to make using birth control cool for both genders.

I don't think all pro-life people are fanatics. Do you?

Can a person not simply sincerely believe that abortion is wrong, without being tagged with all of this other stuff about controlling other people and their sexuality?

214 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:52:27am

re: #209 sattv4u2

GWB ,,, Teddy Kennedy was a frequent visitor at night to the White House during the start of Bush's 1st term

Bush was known as a very bipartisan Republican in Texas as governor. He started out his presidency trying to be that very same way. Washington politics being what they are, it didn't last for long. I think bitterness over the contentious Florida electoral votes was to blame as much as anything else.

215 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:53:00am

re: #213 Mr. Hammer

I don't think all pro-life people are fanatics. Do you?

Can a person not simply sincerely believe that abortion is wrong, without being tagged with all of this other stuff about controlling other people and their sexuality?

Depends on who gets to "frame the discourse", as they say.

216 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:53:06am

re: #211 The Sanity Inspector

An ounce of family is worth a ton of government.

Family is important, yes. No one denies that.

However, we'd be far better served in this country, IMO, if the sex ed we offered in schools was comprehensive and real instead of the garbage we teach kids now. And having birth control cheap and easy to come by, and covered by insurance would go a long way towards expanding its use.

Better sex ed and more birth control = fewer unplanned pregnancies = fewer abortions. Isn't that what these "pro-life" people want? I'd think they'd be all over the whole idea.

217 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:54:17am

re: #210 cliffster

In several cases, if you'll remember, they were won over by offering a financial incentive to their states. This sort of thing is democrats behaving badly, and no amount of blaming republicans can change that.

Once agian we only needed to go to that great lengths to get 60 because Republicans are using the Fillibuster to an unparalleled degree. If the Republicans in the senate would let that the upper house actually vote on anything the Democrats wouldn't need to bend over backwards to people like Joe Liberman...

218 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:55:01am

re: #213 Mr. Hammer

I don't think all pro-life people are fanatics. Do you?

Can a person not simply sincerely believe that abortion is wrong, without being tagged with all of this other stuff about controlling other people and their sexuality?

He can, but he has to act like one as well, do you support contraceptives?

219 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:55:15am

re: #213 Mr. Hammer

I don't think all pro-life people are fanatics. Do you?

No, but there's a world of difference between someone who doesn't like abortion and someone who actively campaigns even against birth control under the guise of "pro-life".

Those are the fanatics to me. If you're against abortion, but you're also against the very things that could lower the abortion rate, like better sex ed and cheaper, more accessible birth control, then you just hate sex, IMO.

220 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:55:42am

Just checked in at RSM's blog. Nothing on the Roeder verdict, but several posts on abortion issues, for some reason.

221 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 11:59:09am

re: #217 jamesfirecat

Once agian we only needed to go to that great lengths to get 60 because Republicans are using the Fillibuster to an unparalleled degree. If the Republicans in the senate would let that the upper house actually vote on anything the Democrats wouldn't need to bend over backwards to people like Joe Liberman...

If you are referring specifically to the debate over health care reform, the Republicans believe that the reform, in the manner desired by obama and the senate leaders, was very bad for the country. In this sense, filibuster is a very appropriate way of opposing it. I do agree that the filibuster has been overused for years and that the senate should be allowed more often to give an up or down vote. It was used conspicuously throughout the Bush administration for judicial appointments, social security reform, any number of things. I suppose it stops extreme legislation and appointments, that would be one way of looking at it.

222 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:00:05pm

re: #218 jamesfirecat

He can, but he has to act like one as well, do you support contraceptives?

support? yes.
schools handing out condoms to 5th graders without parental consent? no.

223 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #221 cliffster

If you are referring specifically to the debate over health care reform, the Republicans believe that the reform, in the manner desired by obama and the senate leaders, was very bad for the country. In this sense, filibuster is a very appropriate way of opposing it. I do agree that the filibuster has been overused for years and that the senate should be allowed more often to give an up or down vote. It was used conspicuously throughout the Bush administration for judicial appointments, social security reform, any number of things. I suppose it stops extreme legislation and appointments, that would be one way of looking at it.

Tell you what, how about we agree that the Fillibuster should be restored back to the glorious form it was in the 1960's when if you wanted to fillibuster something you had to keep fucking talking about it? That way the minority can't just say "no" they have to explain why they don't like it, over and over, and over, AND OVER again.

224 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #222 Mr. Hammer

support? yes.
schools handing out condoms to 5th graders without parental consent? no.

What about 10th graders? What about students in high school the day they turn 16?

225 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #221 cliffster

You from Texas, Cliffster? (I ask because I know a Cliffster from Texas, and you sound like him...)

226 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:06:58pm

re: #222 Mr. Hammer

schools handing out condoms to 5th graders without parental consent? no.

I don't know anyone who's ever advocated that.

Having freely accessible condoms in high school, however, should be standard policy.

227 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #225 Mr. Hammer

You from Texas, Cliffster? (I ask because I know a Cliffster from Texas, and you sound like him...)

I is. Howdy, Mr Hammer. Whereabouts was your Cliffster from?

228 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:08:57pm

re: #223 jamesfirecat

Tell you what, how about we agree that the Fillibuster should be restored back to the glorious form it was in the 1960's when if you wanted to fillibuster something you had to keep fucking talking about it? That way the minority can't just say "no" they have to explain why they don't like it, over and over, and over, AND OVER again.

Agreed. At this point, they just say they're going to filibuster and it's, oh screw it then. I guess nobody wants to sit and listen to people reading the constitution over and over again for 3 days. But yes - if I were the senate leader, I'd go ahead and bring it up for voting, and make those fuckers actually filibuster, not just say they will.

229 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:09:05pm

re: #216 Lidane

Family is important, yes. No one denies that.

However, we'd be far better served in this country, IMO, if the sex ed we offered in schools was comprehensive and real instead of the garbage we teach kids now. And having birth control cheap and easy to come by, and covered by insurance would go a long way towards expanding its use.

Better sex ed and more birth control = fewer unplanned pregnancies = fewer abortions. Isn't that what these "pro-life" people want? I'd think they'd be all over the whole idea.

Ah, I remember we had this discussion some time back. Sex ed and birth control have been in the curriculum for generations now. Why did we ever think that a pamphlet and a ten minute video were ever going to subdue a 3 billion year old primordial urge? It takes bigger guns than a county department of health can field.

230 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:09:45pm

re: #227 cliffster

Grapevine?

231 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:11:12pm

re: #226 Lidane

I don't know anyone who's ever advocated that.

Having freely accessible condoms in high school, however, should be standard policy.

...and then everyone's jaws drop at the sight of the students' exodus to home schooling.

232 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:12:50pm

re: #228 cliffster

Agreed. At this point, they just say they're going to filibuster and it's, oh screw it then. I guess nobody wants to sit and listen to people reading the constitution over and over again for 3 days. But yes - if I were the senate leader, I'd go ahead and bring it up for voting, and make those fuckers actually filibuster, not just say they will.

Glad we can agree on something, that way while in theory you can't actually wait a fillibuster out (those 40 people are allowed to switch up with five minute or so breaks in between in my mind) if we see 55 democrats Vrs 40/1 Republicans, Joe Liberman, and a few conservative democrats fillibustering healthcare, it'd be a lot more obvious to people where the problem is rather than forcing Democrats to horse trade their way up to 60....

233 cliffster  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:12:54pm

re: #230 Mr. Hammer

Grapevine?

Not me, I'm right in the middle - Austin. If you say your guy sounds like me, I'm sure he's a very intelligent and knowledgeable man. You should spend time with him

234 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:14:56pm

re: #226 Lidane

Hmm... maybe I am a fanatic afterall... Gosh, what will my friends think??

235 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:16:22pm

re: #231 The Sanity Inspector

...and then everyone's jaws drop at the sight of the students' exodus to home schooling.

Sure, some parents will pull their kids from public school, but not everyone has that luxury.

236 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:18:58pm

re: #233 cliffster

He's a right thinking American, my (other) friend Cliffster...

237 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:22:52pm

re: #229 The Sanity Inspector

Why did we ever think that a pamphlet and a ten minute video were ever going to subdue a 3 billion year old primordial urge? It takes bigger guns than a county department of health can field.

Which is why we need better than a ten minute video and a pamphlet.

The sex ed in this country is a joke. We're not serving anyone with the curriculum we have now. It needs to go further, and not just in terms of the mechanics of sex, but in everything else that goes along with it, like communication and trust.

238 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:24:54pm

re: #237 Lidane

Which is why we need better than a ten minute video and a pamphlet.

The sex ed in this country is a joke. We're not serving anyone with the curriculum we have now. It needs to go further, and not just in terms of the mechanics of sex, but in everything else that goes along with it, like communication and trust.

Or we could give out free laptops with WOW accounts already payed for them on them, believe me, I didn't even have the time/inclination to figure out how to get myself off till about a year ago (I'm 21)

239 Lidane  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

Or we could give out free laptops with WOW accounts already payed for them on them, believe me, I didn't even have the time/inclination to figure out how to get myself off till about a year ago (I'm 21)

Ha! Yeah. Pre-paid WoW accounts would work too. Or pre-paid XBox Live accounts with copies of Modern Warfare 2 and Mass Effect 2 thrown in for good measure.

Sounds like a plan to me.

/geek

240 SixDegrees  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #198 sattv4u2

Painted themselves into a corner? How about put there from day one!?!?
"WE WON!" and ""But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

And, after a year of failures:

"I never said change was going to be easy."

241 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:05:27pm

re: #130 jamesfirecat

When abortion on demand isn't the law of the land innocent women die with coathangers in their hands...

No. Wire. Hangers! --Mommy Dearest
(I suspect rust stains were never the issue there.)

242 teleskiguy  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:07:04pm

The jury came to the right verdict. Roeder is a cold-blooded murderer. Good to know that he'll be locked up for the rest of his life.

243 sffilk  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:11:04pm

re: #216 Lidane

Family is important, yes. No one denies that.

However, we'd be far better served in this country, IMO, if the sex ed we offered in schools was comprehensive and real instead of the garbage we teach kids now. And having birth control cheap and easy to come by, and covered by insurance would go a long way towards expanding its use.

Better sex ed and more birth control = fewer unplanned pregnancies = fewer abortions. Isn't that what these "pro-life" people want? I'd think they'd be all over the whole idea.

That's what you'd think, but it's not so...... the "pro-life" people I've had exposure to want simply to force their version of religion onto women who want a legal medical procedure. I'd say more, but I'll stay quiet for now.

244 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:14:45pm

re: #78 Mr. Hammer

In the State of Kansas vs. Scott Roeder, which side did you support?

245 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:17:33pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Here's another one...


Yeesh.

I got the mental picture of Bugs Bunny saying the same thing...

246 andres  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:37:23pm

re: #208 cliffster

But capitulating to who? If you will think back through the debates, it was this person or that person who was holding out, but it was always a more conservative democrat, or an anti-abortion democrat.

So, Sen. Snowe is a conservative democrat?

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:43:23pm

re: #9 KansasMom

GOOD

Now will all the whackos who came to town for the trial please get the hell out?

Has it been rough around your neck of the woods?

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:46:03pm

re: #25 MandyManners

He said everything but that it was justified in that statement.

It will happen again if Terry can make it happen.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 1:48:44pm

re: #36 garhighway

It takes 30 minutes for them to elect a foreman.

So once you have a foreman, you go round the table and say "Anyone got any doubt he did it?" and everyone shakes their head, except Mrs. Cooper, who says "Fuck, no."

This accounts for the remaining 6 minutes and 55 seconds while everyone recovers from that, since Mrs. Cooper is seventy-five, and wears gloves and a hat to court.

250 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 2:04:09pm

re: #244 talon_262

Roeder was justly convicted.
I am totally anti-abortion. But murder is murder...

251 LotharBot  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 3:48:53pm

Normally the phrase "anti-abortion" pisses me off; most of the people I know call themselves "pro-life". We're not against your right to reproduce as you see fit, but once you've created a little human being, we want to protect it. We don't get up in the morning and say "how can we ruin the lives of women by denying them reproductive services", but "how can we protect the lives of innocents". (Of course, there's room for rational people to disagree regarding the point at which an embryo or fetus deserves protection.)

In this case, I'm glad they're calling him "anti-abortion". Someone who murders a guy (at church, even) doesn't deserve the title "pro-life". Roeder is a nutjob, plain and simple -- and his actions do nothing to help protect the unborn. They just make the world a little more violent.

252 Bingo.Long  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 5:53:58pm

re: #251 LotharBot

It is problematic for the vast majority of Americans to declare themselves "pro-life." "Anti-abortion" is a much more accurate and realistic descriptor for folk who disavow the acceptability of the procedure, unless those folk also oppose capital punishment & war, eat vegetarian, avoid killing insects, etc. The possibility for hypocracy is too strong when one self-describes as "pro-life."

253 Rishonah  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:11:25pm

I am glad that the judge did not permit Roeder's specious pleading to influence him into allowing the lesser sentence, and I commend the jury for its decision.

I am against capital punishment, or I would wish that Roeder would be executed by firing squad in front of his family - that would be justice. But I daresay 50 years minimum will have to do.

254 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:21:03pm

re: #253 Rishonah

I am glad that the judge did not permit Roeder's specious pleading to influence him into allowing the lesser sentence, and I commend the jury for its decision.

I am against capital punishment, or I would wish that Roeder would be executed by firing squad in front of his family - that would be justice. But I daresay 50 years minimum will have to do.

Freaks like Roeder want to be executed. All the Army of God types want martyrdom. Paul Hill did. They believe themselves to be engaged in a religious war.
From inside prison they continue to communicate with other anti-choice extremists and they encourage them to follow their lead. (Roeder has already been doing so from within prison; Shelley Shannon likewise had an extensive communication with Paul Hill before she tried and failed to assassinate Tiller).
Search the tags here on Roeder and especially Army of God and there is a lot of info. There's a documentary CJ posted about the Army of God that I highly recommend.

I'm also opposed to the death penalty, but I would like Roeder and those like him held under extremely tight security with many restrictions on their correspondence and visitors. (They'll find a way to get their 'newsletters' out, most likely by passing them to their lawyers, who are also plugged into the Operation Rescue/Army of God network, but it would be a start.)

255 mr. hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:22:43pm

re: #252 Bingo.Long

I guess I agree, though I am also with LotharBot, as I would normally refer to myself as pro-life despite the apparent conflict with regard to war and insects, etc...

As Darthstar observed, I really got hammered for statement #78, and even had a few posters call me names. Evidently not many here agree with me. A bit of a rude awakening honestly.

256 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:39:03pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Has it been rough around your neck of the woods?

I'm just tired of Wichita being the epicenter of the abortion debate, with all the crap that goes along with that.
Luckily I don't attend church where the shooting took place, or work near the courthouse. The truth trucks have been active lately from what I hear, luckily I have not personally have one park outside my children's school. (Yes the sick bastards park them accross the street from schools and parks.)

257 KansasMom  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:49:12pm

re: #255 mr. hammer

It has not escaped my notice that you've been a complete gentleman throughout this thread. I appreciate that.

258 Mr. Hammer  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 7:56:50pm

re: #257 KansasMom

Thank you for the kind words, ma'am.

259 LotharBot  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:17:42pm

re: #252 Bingo.Long

It is problematic for the vast majority of Americans to declare themselves "pro-life." "Anti-abortion" is a much more accurate and realistic descriptor for folk who disavow the acceptability of the procedure, unless those folk also oppose capital punishment & war, eat vegetarian, avoid killing insects, etc. The possibility for hypocracy is too strong when one self-describes as "pro-life."

A large fraction of those I interacted with were against the death penalty and anti-war. They were also typically opposed to euthanasia, assisted suicide, etc. There wasn't generally a great deal of concern for animal life (though there was vocal opposition to animal cruelty.) Even those who supported war or the death penalty did so in very limited circumstances (just war doctrine, etc.)

Perhaps "pro-human-life" or "pro-innocent-human-life" would be better monikers. In my experience, "anti-abortion" doesn't capture the ethos of the broader movement. "Anti-abortion" definitely describes Scott Roeder's murderous crew, but the rest of us use "pro-life" because of a much broader opposition to many other forms of killing.

260 Flavia  Fri, Jan 29, 2010 10:31:16pm

re: #14 darthstar

Randall Terry should have been a co-defendant.

A crying shame I can only give you one upding for this truism.

261 LotharBot  Sat, Jan 30, 2010 2:56:52pm

To add to my previous comment:

I think the vast majority of non-psychotic people, when asked, would agree with the following:

"I think humans who have passed X development threshold should be legally and morally protected from being killed. Under Y circumstances, those protections may be overruled for the good of society."

Where we differ is how we fill out X and Y. Here are some examples:

X = conception, birth, 2nd/3rd trimester, viability, consciousness, etc.
Y = convicted of murder/child rape/other heinous crime, currently in the act of threatening or attempting to kill others, member of a military or paramilitary organization fighting on the wrong side of some cause, etc.

In my experience, people who call themselves "pro-life" tend to put X at conception or another early date, and tend to have very few circumstances that fit Y; they are very broadly speaking "pro-life". But some parts of the movement (Randall Terry, Scott Roeder, etc.) put X very early while expanding Y beyond the norm, and people like that deserve to be called "anti-abortion" (and also "murderers".)

262 hugh59  Sun, Jan 31, 2010 5:08:42pm

A number of years ago, I worked for the Christian Coalition of America; a very pro-life organization. The CCA's position regarding people like Scott Roeder is that they were murderers. Pro-life means saving life. Some of the people at the CCA were opposed to capital punishment because of their belief that the taking of human life was wrong.


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