Georgia’s Religious Right Opposes Bill Aimed at Child Prostitution

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The religious right’s paragons of virtue are terribly concerned about children as long as they’re still in the womb. But as soon as they’re born, they’re on their own: Georgia’s Christian right comes out against bill aimed at child prostitution.

The weight of the state’s Christian right movement just came down in opposition to a pair of bills that would steer young girls under the age of 16 into diversionary programs instead of arresting them on charges of prostitution.

Representatives from the Georgia Christian Alliance, the Georgia Christian Coalition, Ralph Reed’s Faith and Freedom Coalition, and the Georgia Baptist Convention all put in appearances. Republican candidate for governor John Oxendine appeared around the edges of the afternoon press conference, but did not speak.

At issue are two separate bills, one in the House and one in the Senate. Both are sponsored by Republicans.

“Who will benefit from the passage of H.B. 582 or S.B. 304? I’ll tell you who – the very profitable and growing pedophile industry,” said former state Sen. Nancy Shafer. “It is imperative that these bills be defeated.”

(Hat tip: simoom.)

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231 comments
1 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:10:47pm

(Reposted from the previous thread)

Age of Consent in Georgia is 16, by definition,they can't give consent to be a prostitute. What in the hell are they thinking trying to oppose a bill like that? It's not like the police wouldn't be *very* interested in the johns and in particular any pimps who were doing this. Last time I check there are some ... stronger laws than prostitition out there.

Sometimes I think Ghandi really was right.

2 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:12:02pm

Perhaps our host will consider it bad form to post OT right off the bat, but I just wanted to pop in and say hi. Just finished a 2800+ drive in 5 days and 2.5 hours. So, what up?

3 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:12:36pm

This gets an upding for the Gillian Welch album on the sidebar.

I gotta take off. Back tonight.

4 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:12:47pm

re: #1 bloodstar

(Reposted from the previous thread)

Age of Consent in Georgia is 16, by definition,they can't give consent to be a prostitute. What in the hell are they thinking trying to oppose a bill like that? It's not like the police wouldn't be *very* interested in the johns and in particular any pimps who were doing this. Last time I check there are some ... stronger laws than prostitition out there.

Sometimes I think Ghandi really was right.

Well, here's a summary of why they oppose it. I would have to see the whole bill and more detailed information than we have here to come up with my opinion. Just not enough info in this article.

Some opponents said the bills amounted to decriminalization, which amounted to legalization. And would lead to more prostitution, not less, they said.

“Decriminalizing that means the police would have absolutely no interest in it at all,” said Sue Ella Deadwyler, who writes a Christian conservative newsletter. “They wouldn’t arrest the girls, they wouldn’t pick the girls up, they wouldn’t protect them from influence on the street from the pimps and the johns. It would be an absolute cultural upheaval in our state. Never in the United States, as far as I known, has juvenile prostitution been legalized.”

5 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:13:32pm

This opposition comes from a misunderstanding (willful or not I can't say) of the bill. The intent is to have law enforcement treat child prostitutes like victims and get them into the hands of social services and treatment instead of treating them like perps.

Here is the bill - judge for yourself: hb582 current version

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:13:35pm

I say, divert girls under eighteen into programs that will give them a chance, and shoot the pimps without trial. That law-and-order enough for these folks?

/OK. I would give them a trial.

7 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:13:45pm

re: #2 Cato the Elder

Perhaps our host will consider it bad form to post OT right off the bat, but I just wanted to pop in and say hi. Just finished a 2800+ drive in 5 days and 2.5 hours. So, what up?

It's no wonder you did such good time... you didn't call me back after your late breakfast.

8 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:14:15pm

re: #5 DaddyG

This opposition comes from a misunderstanding (willful or not I can't say) of the bill. The intent is to have law enforcement treat child prostitutes like victims and get them into the hands of social services and treatment instead of treating them like perps.

Here is the bill - judge for yourself: hb582 current version

Thanks...

9 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:14:48pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

I say, divert girls under eighteen into programs that will give them a chance, and shoot the pimps without trial. That law-and-order enough for these folks?

/OK. I would give them a trial.

Exactly - treat and counsel the girls, prosecute the johns, and kneecap the pimps.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:14:56pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

That's always been the fear--that decriminalization leaves sex workers more vulnerable. It shouldn't have to be that way, though.

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:04pm

re: #5 DaddyG

This opposition comes from a misunderstanding (willful or not I can't say) of the bill. The intent is to have law enforcement treat child prostitutes like victims and get them into the hands of social services and treatment instead of treating them like perps.

Here is the bill - judge for yourself: hb582 current version

To those who seek to legislate morality, sinner = criminal. Which is why those girls have to be arrested.

12 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:27pm

Senate Version sb304 Current

13 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:44pm

re: #11 ralphieboy

To those who seek to legislate morality, sinner = criminal. Which is why those girls have to be arrested.

I'm not sure that's what they're arguing here, although it's a useful distortion.

14 simoom  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:53pm

Here's some from the supporters of the legislation, again the Atlanta Journal Constitution:
Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum

The bill introduced by Sen. Renee Unterman (R-Buford), would steer girls under the age of 16 into diversionary programs instead of arresting them as prostitutes.

“This bill makes sure people are aware that young girls are victims,” Unterman said. “A 12-year-old laying on her back don’t know what sex is.”
...
Unterman said her bill would help create a system of care for the girls while educating the public and those who come in contact with the young girls. It would impact girls getting pimped out on the streets, as well as girls working in massage parlors.

“I don’t think that children who are raped for profit should be prosecuted as criminals,” said Elizabeth LeDuc, a pediatrician, who supports the bill. “We need to make sure kids under 16 will not be tried as prostitutes. Children sent to jail for prostitution are more likely to go back into the streets.”

In Atlanta, trafficking and prostitution has emerged into a major problem. In 2002, for example, the FBI broke up a ring of 14 men pimping girls as young as 10.

In a report issued the following year, the bureau cited Atlanta as one of 14 U.S. cities with the highest rate of children being used for prostitution. Unterman said she plans to speak with Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed about the issue.

15 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #1 bloodstar

Sometimes I think Ghandi really was right.

You mean as in "Western civilization would be a good idea"?

One wonders whether those upstanding Christian fathers who throw chastity parties for their daughters would turn them in and want them to go to jail if one of their own wound up on the strip...

16 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:16:44pm

I'd like to see what Ralph Reed has on his computer...on second thought, maybe it's better not knowing.

17 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:16:59pm
“Sure there are those who are forced into prostitution, but I think most of them volunteer,” Deadwyler [publisher of Georgia Insight] said of under 16-year-old prostitutes. “Many, many children have been scared straight because of arrest.”
[Link: blogs.ajc.com...]


Some people will always think that scaring children is the most effective way to solve social problems.

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:17:01pm

re: #13 Guanxi88

I'm not sure that's what they're arguing here, although it's a useful distortion.


They are sinful in the eyes of God, not any sort of victims of circumstance who need our help. These people tend to have a very old Testament view of how to deal with those who fall short of the Glory of God.

20 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:18:52pm

re: #18 ralphieboy

They are sinful in the eyes of God, not any sort of victims of circumstance who need our help. These people tend to have a very old Testament view of how to deal with those who fall short of the Glory of God.

Again, I think they are misinterpreting the bill as some sort of quasi-legalization move. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they're trying to punish child prostitutes, and, indeed, the very fact that they claim (absurdly) that pedophiles would be the ones most to benefit from the proposal suggests that, in this case, they're just confused, not vicious.

21 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:19:04pm

re: #5 DaddyG

This opposition comes from a misunderstanding (willful or not I can't say) of the bill. The intent is to have law enforcement treat child prostitutes like victims and get them into the hands of social services and treatment instead of treating them like perps.

Here is the bill - judge for yourself: hb582 current version

Look at the senate bill.

[Link: www.legis.state.ga.us...]

22 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:19:13pm

The argument against the bill makes no sense. They aren't decriminalizing child prostitution, they are treating child protstitutes as victims. The pimps and Johns are still criminally liable.

I'm not impressed with Oxendine hanging on to the tail of this crowd. That's strike 2 for his campaign in my eyes. Karen Handel is looking like my choice of candidates for Governor.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:19:20pm

re: #17 jaunte

Some people will always think that scaring children is the most effective way to solve social problems.

Yeah, a teenage girl working as a prostitute is probably doing it for the kicks and extra pocket money. She'll straighten right up if she gets smacked with some juvie.

What planet is this guy on?

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:20:40pm

re: #18 ralphieboy

They are sinful in the eyes of God, not any sort of victims of circumstance who need our help. These people tend to have a very old Testament view of how to deal with those who fall short of the Glory of God.

Except for male politicians (R. only) who cheat on their wives, those hardly even need to repent before they're taken back into the fold.

25 allegro  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:07pm

I don't see this issue as much different from child p0rn. Are the children who are victimized for that industry arrested? Are not the men (almost always) involved with the production and consumption of it prosecuted mightily when they are found?

This is DIRECT abuse of young kids - both girls and boys, I'm sure. The consequences for doing so on the part of the pimps and johns should be at least as much as those for child p0rn or more.

26 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:16pm

“They wouldn’t arrest the girls, they wouldn’t pick the girls up, they wouldn’t protect them from influence on the street from the pimps and the johns. It would be an absolute cultural upheaval in our state. Never in the United States, as far as I known, has juvenile prostitution been legalized.”

gonna be a big fight

27 cliffster  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:24pm

"Some opponents said the bills amounted to decriminalization, which amounted to legalization"

why is that?

28 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:42pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

That's always been the fear--that decriminalization leaves sex workers more vulnerable. It shouldn't have to be that way, though.

The Law Of Unintended Consequences might be coiled & ready to strike. What actually would happen to these girls, if the state went the decriminalization route? What if some are pimp-less freelancers? And etc.

29 teleskiguy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:45pm

I'm all for getting "victims," whether they be prostitutes or drug addicts or battered loved ones, to a place where they can recover and learn how to thrive without having to go back to prostitution/drugs/abusive relationships. Conservatives are reading too much into this bill, there are already stiff laws for prostitution in every state in the union (sans Nevada). Helping young girls get out of prostitution doesn't seem to me like enabling prostitution.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:22:04pm

re: #19 MandyManners

Section seven of the senate bill seems to repeal the laws that allow prosecution of pimps and those who engage in making porn movies with teens.

I think section two overrides it, no? Someone who speaks better legal than me check it out.

31 Lidane  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:22:14pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

I say, divert girls under eighteen into programs that will give them a chance, and shoot the pimps without trial. That law-and-order enough for these folks?

re: #9 Guanxi88

Exactly - treat and counsel the girls, prosecute the johns, and kneecap the pimps.

Works for me.

A teenage girl (or boy, for that matter) in that position is either being forced against their will, or they're a runaway that doesn't have any better options for survival, or they're desperate to escape some sort of hellish and/or abusive situation at home. Prosecuting them doesn't solve any of those problems.

Going after the johns and pimps and making their lives hell while getting the underage prostitute some sort of counseling or help or a way out is far better in the long run than getting them into the jail system at such a young age. IMO, anyway.

32 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:22:48pm

Jail is no place for a young girl.

33 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:22:58pm

Its not a he its a she... Sue Ella Deadwyler and she also has this gem...

“Sure there are those who are forced into prostitution, but I think most of them volunteer,” Deadwyler said of under 16-year-old prostitutes."

WTF Sue Ella (do you get a free double wide with that name?) Functional teens want a nice birthday, some good friends, a day at the mall and a pretty prom gown. They do not want to be prostitutes.

I could just slap the stupid out of some people!!! Grrrr...

34 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:23:02pm

re: #25 allegro

I don't see this issue as much different from child p0rn. Are the children who are victimized for that industry arrested? Are not the men (almost always) involved with the production and consumption of it prosecuted mightily when they are found?

This is DIRECT abuse of young kids - both girls and boys, I'm sure. The consequences for doing so on the part of the pimps and johns should be at least as much as those for child p0rn or more.

perhaps we should just make pimping a hanging offense and be done with it?

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:23:26pm

re: #27 cliffster

"Some opponents said the bills amounted to decriminalization, which amounted to legalization"

why is that?

If pimping and hiring is still illegal, and prosecuted aggressively, it doesn't amount to legalization.

36 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:23:45pm

re: #19 MandyManners

Section seven of the senate bill seems to repeal the laws that allow prosecution of pimps and those who engage in making porn movies with teens.

Ah, shit. I can read. Really. Just not with my porch monkey bouncing off the walls.

37 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:18pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

I think section two overrides it, no? Someone who speaks better legal than me check it out.

As I read it, the section specifies that the legal jeopardy attaching for the other party (not the juvenile) is not removed by the Act, nor can the fact of the lack of criminal conduct by the minor (the victim) be used as a defense by any other party to the offense.

In short, they're off their meds.

38 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:20pm

re: #27 cliffster

"Some opponents said the bills amounted to decriminalization, which amounted to legalization"

why is that?


You can't fix stupid meets I believe everything my preacher tells me.

39 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:27pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

That's always been the fear--that decriminalization leaves sex workers more vulnerable. It shouldn't have to be that way, though.

I just read the two versions of the bill, main difference is HB states an age of 18, SB states an age of 16 as the point that the person becomes prosecutable.

But there is nothing in these to bills (actually amendments to existing laws) that states any sort of mandatory diversionary programs.

These two bills, as they stand alone, only redefine (or newly defines) the prosecutable age for prostitution.

I would like to see something that ties this in with mandatory diversionary programs. Young girls should not be arrested, they should be offered the chance to get some help, help that they may never have been able to get from family and friends.

40 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:29pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

If pimping and hiring is still illegal, and prosecuted aggressively, it doesn't amount to legalization.

I don't understand the opponents' reasoning. Is there any?

41 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:34pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

Section seven repeals all laws in conflict.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:37pm

re: #28 The Sanity Inspector

The Law Of Unintended Consequences might be coiled & ready to strike. What actually would happen to these girls, if the state went the decriminalization route? What if some are pimp-less freelancers? And etc.

It all depends on good community policing, and good (mandatory) programs. I still can't see that prosecuting a little girl for prostitution is the better of two evils.

43 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:24:59pm

re: #32 Ojoe

Jail is no place for a young girl.

or an old man like me....jail is a nightmare, a fucking nightmare for typical people

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:25:07pm

re: #29 teleskiguy

I'm all for getting "victims," whether they be prostitutes or drug addicts or battered loved ones, to a place where they can recover and learn how to thrive without having to go back to prostitution/drugs/abusive relationships. Conservatives are reading too much into this bill, there are already stiff laws for prostitution in every state in the union (sans Nevada). Helping young girls get out of prostitution doesn't seem to me like enabling prostitution.

In Nevada too, just with heavily controlled legalization in some areas.

45 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:25:10pm

re: #32 Ojoe

Jail is no place for a young girl.

Sixteen is not a young girl. It's two years from majority. Juvenile hall, yes.

46 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:25:20pm

re: #19 MandyManners

Section seven of the senate bill seems to repeal the laws that allow prosecution of pimps and those who engage in making porn movies with teens.


Hey Mandy, I'm not sure how section 7 repeals anything to do with prosecuting pimps and teen porn, Specifically various sections are saying that it doesn't matter if you can't prosecute the teen for being a prostitute because she's underage, it still would count under the act:

Said chapter is further amended by adding a new Code section to read as follows:
"16-6-26.
The inability to prosecute any person involved in an alleged act of prostitution shall not bar prosecution of any other party charged with a violation of this chapter nor serve as a defense to such crime."

47 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:25:33pm

re: #28 The Sanity Inspector

The Law Of Unintended Consequences might be coiled & ready to strike. What actually would happen to these girls, if the state went the decriminalization route? What if some are pimp-less freelancers? And etc.


Then they still get sent to the proper social services support they need without having to take a turn in Juvie being treated like all the other gang bangers. BTW how many 12 year olds have you heard of that voluntarily left school and started turning tricks?

48 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:25:55pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

If pimping and hiring is still illegal, and prosecuted aggressively, it doesn't amount to legalization.

I see nothing in the two versions of the bills themselves that make prostitution legal.

But like I said above, I also don't see anything that ties these bills into mandatory diversionary programs.

What's missing here?

49 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:01pm

So punish teenage girls with no other options rather than help them?

Then say that by trying to help the girls you are helping pedophiles?

People wonder why I find the Christian right and the GOP devoid of morality or goodness? This is simple and evil hypocrisy at its worst and it is the girls who will suffer.

Why exactly don't people stand up and call these monsters on the far right monsters?

50 cliffster  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:18pm

So the law will say that the underaged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:29pm

re: #33 DaddyG

Its not a he its a she... Sue Ella Deadwyler and she also has this gem...

“Sure there are those who are forced into prostitution, but I think most of them volunteer,” Deadwyler said of under 16-year-old prostitutes."

WTF Sue Ella (do you get a free double wide with that name?) Functional teens want a nice birthday, some good friends, a day at the mall and a pretty prom gown. They do not want to be prostitutes.

I could just slap the stupid out of some people!!! Grrr...

A boy or girl of less than sixteen who 'volunteers' to be a prostitute--yeah, we see those every day. No need to worry about 'em. Charge 'em like grown-ups!

//The stupid.

52 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:36pm

re: #50 cliffster

So the law will say that the underaged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?

I think that's the gist of it.

53 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:36pm

re: #46 bloodstar

See my No. 36, please.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:26:54pm

re: #34 brookly red

perhaps we should just make pimping a hanging offense and be done with it?

I could dig it.

55 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:27:14pm

re: #50 cliffster

So the law will say that the underaged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?

yes, pretty much

56 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:27:20pm

re: #41 MandyManners

Section seven repeals all laws in conflict.

That part bothers me, I'll give you that. A bit too expansive.

57 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:27:27pm

The Following song won an Oscar from Hustle&Flow...
When Bill O'Reilly heard it his head exploded.. So I had to buy it.
It's hard out here for a pimp...

[Chorus 2X: Shug - singing] + (Djay)
You know it's hard out here for a pimp (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)
[1] Because a whole lot of bitches talkin shit (you ain't knowin)
[2] Will have a whole lot of bitches talkin shit (you ain't knowin)

[Djay]
In my eyes I done seen some crazy thangs in the streets
Gotta couple hoes workin on the changes for me
But I gotta keep my game tight like Kobe on game night
Like takin from a ho don't know no better, I know that ain't right
Done seen people killed, done seen people deal
Done seen people live in poverty with no meals
It's fucked up where I live, but that's just how it is
It might be new to you, but it's been like this for years
It's blood sweat and tears when it come down to this shit
I'm tryin to get rich 'fore I leave up out this bitch
I'm tryin to have thangs but it's hard fo' a pimp
But I'm prayin and I'm hopin to God I don't slip, yeah

[Chorus]

[Djay]
Man it seems like I'm duckin dodgin bullets everyday
Niggaz hatin on me cause I got, hoes on the tray
But I gotta stay paid, gotta stay above water
Couldn't keep up with my hoes, that's when shit got harder
North Memphis where I'm from, I'm 7th Street bound
Where niggaz all the time end up lost and never found
Man these girls think we prove thangs, leave a big head
They come hopin every night, they don't end up bein dead
Wait I got a snow bunny, and a black girl too
You pay the right price and they'll both do you
That's the way the game goes, gotta keep it strictly pimpin
Gotta have my hustle tight, makin change off these women, yeah

[Chorus]

58 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:27:43pm

re: #53 MandyManners

See my No. 36, please.

I know, sorry I should have hit refresh before posting mea culpa :)

59 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:28:06pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

I could dig it.

well if you really, really want to discourage something that is the way to go.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:28:10pm

re: #38 DaddyG

You can't fix stupid meets I believe everything my preacher tells me.

What kind of a preacher wants to charge children with being raped?

(Can I send Cecil Williams over? He won't beat them up, but he might talk to them until they wish he would.)

61 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:28:13pm

re: #50 cliffster

So the law will say that the underaged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?

They MUST be taken off the street.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:28:44pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

I just read the two versions of the bill, main difference is HB states an age of 18, SB states an age of 16 as the point that the person becomes prosecutable.

But there is nothing in these to bills (actually amendments to existing laws) that states any sort of mandatory diversionary programs.

These two bills, as they stand alone, only redefine (or newly defines) the prosecutable age for prostitution.

I would like to see something that ties this in with mandatory diversionary programs. Young girls should not be arrested, they should be offered the chance to get some help, help that they may never have been able to get from family and friends.

That, to me, is the key thing, and if these groups were pushing that aggressively, I would be cheering them on.

63 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:28:56pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

I could dig it.

It is a form of slavery...and is just as vile and repugnant.

64 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:29:12pm

re: #56 Guanxi88

That part bothers me, I'll give you that. A bit too expansive.

It'd take quite a bit of research of the Georgia Code to figure out what all would be affected.

65 cliffster  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:29:21pm

re: #49 LudwigVanQuixote

So punish teenage girls with no other options rather than help them?

Then say that by trying to help the girls you are helping pedophiles?

People wonder why I find the Christian right and the GOP devoid of morality or goodness? This is simple and evil hypocrisy at its worst and it is the girls who will suffer.

Why exactly don't people stand up and call these monsters on the far right monsters?

Why do you say that? It sounds to me like they have reasons for thinking that the law will do more harm than good. You may disagree with them, but calling them monsters, hypocrites, and devoid of morality is just mindless GOP-hating. How are you reading it differently?

66 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:29:34pm

re: #5 DaddyG

This opposition comes from a misunderstanding (willful or not I can't say) of the bill. The intent is to have law enforcement treat child prostitutes like victims and get them into the hands of social services and treatment instead of treating them like perps.

Here is the bill - judge for yourself: hb582 current version

Where are the state's laws dealing with sexual activity by those younger than 18? That just has to do with 18 or older.

67 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:29:39pm

re: #58 bloodstar

I know, sorry I should have hit refresh before posting mea culpa :)

No, it's I who should apologize for not focusing.

68 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:29:58pm

re: #45 MandyManners

Sixteen is not a young girl. It's two years from majority. Juvenile hall, yes.

Sixteen is too a young girl. Granted, she may be old enough to dive a car. And the same people arguing that young girls should be sent to jail for participating in an activity they were likely forced/manipulated into are the ones saying an asshole like 25 year old wanna-be pimp O'Keefe shouldn't go to jail for his actions in Louisiana because "he's a good kid who didn't mean to harm anyone". The only people these girls are harming are themselves. They deserve protection, not prosecution.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:30:10pm

re: #40 jaunte

I don't understand the opponents' reasoning. Is there any?


I think it's what Walter said, and Sanity Inspector hinted at--a concern that if what the girls are doing isn't illegal, they'll be left on the streets, pimps and johns not arrested, etc. I don't know how realistic or otherwise that is, but I don't know how keeping the girls legally liable helps.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:30:27pm

re: #41 MandyManners

Section seven repeals all laws in conflict.

What laws are in conflict?

71 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:30:49pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

I could dig it.

So would I.

The only thing I am still in the dark about is the diversionary programs concept. I see nothing in these two bills that ties the decriminalization to an actual program.

I certainly wouldn't want decriminalization without something that would be mandatory and productive for these girls.

Or did I miss something?

72 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:30:52pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

What laws are in conflict?


You'd have to ask the legislators.

73 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:31:10pm

re: #50 cliffster

It is a failure of compassion that they are not already taken off the streets, never mind as criminals; but the loudly self proclaimed Christains have some work to do here.

It is to look back at Don Bosco of Turin, Italy who in the latter 1800s saved many many street urchins by taking them in & teaching them trades.

There is an example of action for them.

BBL

74 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:31:18pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Where are the state's laws dealing with sexual activity by those younger than 18? That just has to do with 18 or older.

SB 304.

75 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:31:57pm

re: #68 darthstar

Sixteen is too a young girl. Granted, she may be old enough to dive a car. And the same people arguing that young girls should be sent to jail for participating in an activity they were likely forced/manipulated into are the ones saying an asshole like 25 year old wanna-be pimp O'Keefe shouldn't go to jail for his actions in Louisiana because "he's a good kid who didn't mean to harm anyone". The only people these girls are harming are themselves. They deserve protection, not prosecution.

No. Young girl is five or 10. Sixteen is old girl. Eighteen is a woman.

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:32:16pm

re: #50 cliffster

So the law will say that the underaged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?

Basically. I agree that a mandatory diversion program should be part of this.

77 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:32:18pm

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

I certainly wouldn't want decriminalization without something that would be mandatory and productive for these girls.

That seems to be the missing piece in the bill's current language.

78 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:32:40pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

What laws are in conflict?

I reckon you'd have to do the research into the code.

79 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:32:52pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

That, to me, is the key thing, and if these groups were pushing that aggressively, I would be cheering them on.

So, I'm not missing something... there is no apparent link to these bills and some sort of mandatory diversionary programs?

That's a problem as far as I'm concerned. But I still don't agree with the stance of the opposing people.

80 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:33:14pm

re: #50 cliffster

So the law will say that the under aged girls would no longer be considered criminals, and the law's opposers feel that this will make girls even more vulnerable since the police will not be taking them off the streets?


The Public Safety Officers in our state are not thinking - gee this young girl standing on the street corner in heavy makeup at 1:00am in the morning isn't doing anything illegal so I'll just leave her there. No sense picking her up and finding out if she's abused or needs the help of social services...

Remember folks these bills are in the legislative process. Teh stupid is likely to get knocked out of them before a final law is passed and if there needs to be more explicit language about diversion programs then it can be added.

BTW- Georgia has some exceptional Juvenile Justice and Youth Challenge programs including a accredited HS where all of our Juveniles can earn their degree with automatic acceptance into state tech colleges.

81 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:33:19pm

I think, though, that whatever else we may not agree on, we can all agree pimps need kneecapping at a minimum.

82 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:33:35pm

re: #11 ralphieboy

To those who seek to legislate morality, sinner = criminal. Which is why those girls have to be arrested.

So . . . what are you suggesting? There should be no prosecution for those sinners who use these girls this way?
jeez

I can't make heads or tails out of what these bills mean.

83 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:33:49pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

Basically. I agree that a mandatory diversion program should be part of this.

wouldn't you have to criminalize the girl first?.....a diversion program being part of the punishment?...otherwise how can you enforce the program?

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:33:53pm

re: #61 MandyManners

They MUST be taken off the street.

That's the issue. Can they be taken into protective custody as witnesses to a crime, rather than suspects?

85 simoom  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:34:02pm

re: #33 DaddyG

More from Sue Ella Deadwyler, Capital Correspondent for Eagle Forum of Georgia - Radio Commentary, WMVV 90.7 New Life FM, January 22, 2010:

On February 26th, 2009 House Judiciary Chairman Wendell Willard introduced H.B. 582 to drastically change the prostitution law to prosecute offenses of prostitution and sexual offenses for adults only. If that were to pass, anyone under 18 could legally engage in the oldest profession without being charged as a prostitute. Then, on the first day of this session, Senator Renee Unterman introduced S.B. 304 to repeal the prostitution law for anyone under 16. Both are attempts to remove the stigma of prostitution from minors.

While some minors may be forced into prostitution, others voluntarily choose prostitution as a way to make money. So, changing the law to accommodate an illegal, immoral, unhealthy, destructive and degrading way of life won’t prevent permanent physical and emotional damage to the children. Not only that, legalizing prostitution for boys and girls will remove the legal barrier that keeps some of them from going into prostitution because they, simply, don’t want to go to jail.

Also, removing the penalty for young prostitutes will multiply the number who choose it as a trade and make others fair game for enticement into a very dangerous and destructive lifestyle. But, there’s something else very troubling about this. These bills have no lower-age limit, leaving me to wonder whether any child of any age will be protected from use in prostitution.

Georgia cannot lower the under-age prostitution rate by removing the penalty. Arguments about this are the same as those used about distributing contraceptives to children and we know how that turned out. Now, teen pregnancy is common, almost half of all births are to unwed girls, couples live together before marriage, STDs are rampant and colleges have coed dorms.

The question is, do we want more under-age prostitution or less?

The bolding is mine.

I can't get Google cache to work for that transcript, so no link, but if anyone wants the original, there's a link to it on the Georgia Insight Facebook page:
[Link: 74.125.113.132...] (google cache)

86 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:34:18pm

More about Unterman:


Unterman, a registered nurse and social worker and vice chairwoman of the Senate’s Health and Human Services Committee, has long been an advocate on issues surrounding girls. It has not always been easy among her colleagues in state government.

“I could not talk about sex at the Capitol,” Unterman said, adding that she has already heard whispers that she is trying to decriminalize prostitution. “I was trying to talk to 50-, 60-, 70-year-old men about men trying to have sex with 14-year-olds.”

During the last session, she introduced a bill that passed and created better reporting of child sex trafficking. She also proposed a bill that would have charged people $5 to get into a strip club, with that money going toward the treatment of young prostitutes, and another bill that would have raised the age to get a stripping license from 18 to 21. Those last two bills failed, but Unterman plans to revisit them. This latest bill, she said, is a continuation of that work.[Link: www.ajc.com...]

87 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:34:22pm

re: #81 Guanxi88

I think, though, that whatever else we may not agree on, we can all agree pimps need kneecapping at a minimum.

that's illegal bro

88 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:34:47pm

re: #87 albusteve

that's illegal bro

I'm working on a bill........

89 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:34:58pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the issue. Can they be taken into protective custody as witnesses to a crime, rather than suspects?

You can't keep them in protective custody forever. They need some place to go after the trial.

90 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:35:02pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the issue. Can they be taken into protective custody as witnesses to a crime, rather than suspects?

that might work...a ward of the court or some such

91 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:35:42pm

re: #77 jaunte

That seems to be the missing piece in the bill's current language.

That's what I thought. Then it could be called decriminalization of prostitution for girls under 18 (or 16) depending on which version get passed.

This bill seems to only address the problem half-way. I wonder why the article above mentions "he weight of the state’s Christian right movement just came down in opposition to a pair of bills that would steer young girls under the age of 16 into diversionary programs instead of arresting them on charges of prostitution."

I don't see the tie in to diversionary programs.

92 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:35:47pm

re: #64 MandyManners

It'd take quite a bit of research of the Georgia Code to figure out what all would be affected.


Enjoy!

Georgia Code

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:35:52pm

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

So, I'm not missing something... there is no apparent link to these bills and some sort of mandatory diversionary programs?

That's a problem as far as I'm concerned. But I still don't agree with the stance of the opposing people.

I don't think there is.

94 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:36:35pm

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

That's what I thought. Then it could be called decriminalization of prostitution for girls under 18 (or 16) depending on which version get passed.

This bill seems to only address the problem half-way. I wonder why the article above mentions "he weight of the state’s Christian right movement just came down in opposition to a pair of bills that would steer young girls under the age of 16 into diversionary programs instead of arresting them on charges of prostitution."

I don't see the tie in to diversionary programs.

I don't either...it's poorly written

95 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:36:41pm

re: #81 Guanxi88

I think, though, that whatever else we may not agree on, we can all agree pimps need kneecapping at a minimum.

Well, I agree on that.
Whether it's all of us or not, I don't know. Some folks may simply see those pimps as "sinners" with a different morality than you or I. See:

re: #11 ralphieboy

To those who seek to legislate morality, sinner = criminal. Which is why those girls have to be arrested.

The "sinner = criminal" thought would seem to apply to the pimps as well as to the girls.

96 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:36:46pm

re: #92 DaddyG

Enjoy!

Georgia Code

*runs screaming*

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:36:49pm

re: #82 reine.de.tout

So . . . what are you suggesting? There should be no prosecution for those sinners who use these girls this way?
jeez

I can't make heads or tails out of what these bills mean.

No, no, we're down with ADULT sinner getting theirs.//

;)

98 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:37:24pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

The "sinner = criminal" thought would seem to apply to the pimps as well as to the girls.

Pimps are slavers; slavers should be fair game in any civilized society.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:37:25pm

re: #83 albusteve

wouldn't you have to criminalize the girl first?...a diversion program being part of the punishment?...otherwise how can you enforce the program?

Not sure.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:39:12pm

re: #85 simoom

More from Sue Ella Deadwyler, Capital Correspondent for Eagle Forum of Georgia - Radio Commentary, WMVV 90.7 New Life FM, January 22, 2010:

The bolding is mine.

I can't get Google cache to work for that transcript, so no link, but if anyone wants the original, there's a link to it on the Georgia Insight Facebook page:
[Link: 74.125.113.132...] (google cache)

Well, I don't know if the bill is good enough, but I do know that I don't want to be allied with people who talk like that about underage prostitutes.

What an insensitive, self-righteous jerk. I wonder if she has ever met an actual hooker in her life.

101 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:39:17pm

re: #98 Guanxi88

Pimps are slavers; slavers should be fair game in any civilized society.

Well, I agree.
The commenter above was talking about "legislating morality". The "morality" being legislated here being prostitution, pimping women (or girls).

102 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:39:34pm

re: #85 simoom

re: #86 jaunte

Ok... so far, in all that information, still no tie in to diversionary programs. Why does the thread article mention diversionary programs.

This could be problematic if there is decriminalization and nothing else offered.

103 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:39:58pm

re: #1 bloodstar

[snip] Sometimes I think Ghandi really was right.

Not sure what you mean.

MAHATMA GANDHI

Gandhi and his bride Kasturbai (kus TOOR bI) were married at age thirteen because the family had three boys yet unmarried, and they decided if they had a triple marriage ceremony they could get all three boys married to their brides and just have to plan one celebration. Because of their youth, Kasturbai still spent a lot of time at her parents' home.
104 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:40:25pm

re: #83 albusteve

wouldn't you have to criminalize the girl first?...a diversion program being part of the punishment?...otherwise how can you enforce the program?

How can it be a mandatory program if there are no legal penalties for not completing the program?

105 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:40:48pm

re: #98 Guanxi88

Pimps are slavers; slavers should be fair game in any civilized society.

what's fair game mean?...are you condoning extra curricular punishment?

106 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:40:56pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

No, no, we're down with ADULT sinner getting theirs.//

;)

Well, frankly - I am perfectly OKwith punishing a grown man who has sex with an underage girl, or who pimps young girls.

107 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:41:02pm

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

I'm looking for more details, but so far all I can see is this:

Senator Renee Unterman now has a bill that says if a person arrested for prostitution is under 16, she will be put into treatment, instead of going through the criminal justice system, via the Youth Detention Center.[Link: www.publicbroadcasting.net...]
108 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:42:00pm

re: #104 MandyManners

How can it be a mandatory program if there are no legal penalties for not completing the program?

well right, I don't know...the bill does not address that...it seems like you have to have one before the other

109 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:42:02pm

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

The bill introduced by Sen. Renee Unterman (R-Buford), would steer girls under the age of 16 into diversionary programs instead of arresting them as prostitutes.

“This bill makes sure people are aware that young girls are victims,” Unterman said. “A 12-year-old laying on her back don’t know what sex is.”

Unterman – who has championed the rights of young girls – said the bill has been around for at least two years. She said she revisited it because a plan is now in place to rehabilitate the young prostitutes. The age of consent in Georgia is 16.

Unterman said her bill would help create a system of care for the girls while educating the public and those who come in contact with the young girls. It would impact girls getting pimped out on the streets, as well as girls working in massage parlors.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.

110 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:42:18pm

re: #94 albusteve

I don't either...it's poorly written

Or the article above is poorly written.

I am all for getting young people help, guidance an counseling. So many times these young people do not have a healthy dose of that from their family, for one reason or other.

But I certainly don't want to see this turn into a situation where this is simply treated like jaywalking, a fine is issued, and there is no further mandatory something or other offered to the young people.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:42:35pm

re: #103 abolitionist

Gandhi being married young relates to this...how?

I missed a turn somewhere.

112 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:42:47pm

re: #106 reine.de.tout

Well, frankly - I am perfectly OKwith punishing a grown man who has sex with an underage girl, or who pimps young girls.

we need more jails....a lot more

113 political lunatic  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:43:07pm

Why is is so hard to actually catch the pimps in this country?

114 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:43:08pm

re: #109 Charles

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.

yes, very likely

115 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:43:21pm

re: #109 Charles

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.

That makes it much clearer.

116 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:43:39pm

re: #112 albusteve

we need more jails...a lot more

Might be cheaper just to turn the country as a whole into a prison.....

117 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:43:42pm

Programs for supporting child victims are not in that section of the code. Section 16 is Criminal violations only and the chapter referred to is specific to prostitution. I would like to see (and cannot find it in a quick search) what provisions there are that would allow a youth under 18 or 16 to be placed in the care of the state if they are endangered. I would think those existing laws would suffice without having to state them explicitly in the sections about criminal conduct.

(I am obviously not a lawyer so I need some help here...)

118 Petero1818  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:44:03pm

This is nonsense.There are countless faith based groups doing outreach on the streets of many urban centers. They go around and offer support and counsel to the young girls in an effort to bring them in, NOT to arrest them. The opposition to this bill is absurd, and the argument that it would lead to more prostitution is pure fear mongering. My guess is if the "diversion" would have been to a faith based initiative rather than to the secular system, these guys would have supported it. They have some trouble seeing the forest....

119 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:44:06pm

re: #112 albusteve

we need more jails...a lot more

that would create jobs, no?

120 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:44:39pm

re: #116 Guanxi88

Might be cheaper just to turn the country as a whole into a prison...

bus 'em to CA and Yuma to pick lettuce

121 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:45:09pm

re: #118 Petero1818

This is nonsense.There are countless faith based groups doing outreach on the streets of many urban centers. They go around and offer support and counsel to the young girls in an effort to bring them in, NOT to arrest them. The opposition to this bill is absurd, and the argument that it would lead to more prostitution is pure fear mongering. My guess is if the "diversion" would have been to a faith based initiative rather than to the secular system, these guys would have supported it. They have some trouble seeing the forest...

Bingo.

122 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:45:39pm

re: #116 Guanxi88

Might be cheaper just to turn the country as a whole into a prison...

/if you can't even keep people out then how ya figure that you can keep em in?

123 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:16pm

re: #109 Charles

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.

We're trying to work details from a very small portion of the relevant information. Some state legal codes have accumulated so much flotsam that even the lawyers can't find their way through them. The main gist of the controversy, however, seems obvious.

124 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:17pm

re: #122 brookly red

/if you can't even keep people out then how ya figure that you can keep em in?

Does the name Snake Pliskin ring a bell?

125 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:30pm

re: #122 brookly red

/if you can't even keep people out then how ya figure that you can keep em in?

Notice - very few people leave the US for good. I say, we just leave it like it is - the less the inmates suspect, the better.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:35pm

re: #122 brookly red

/if you can't even keep people out then how ya figure that you can keep em in?

Bounty! Mexico's border communities would make some bucks.

/

127 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:40pm

re: #108 albusteve

well right, I don't know...the bill does not address that...it seems like you have to have one before the other

It's impossible to make an informed opinion without important chunks of information.

128 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:56pm

re: #124 DaddyG

Does the name Snake Pliskin ring a bell?

uhhh, no?

129 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:57pm

re: #109 Charles

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.

I agree that what this woman is doing (or trying to do) is worthwhile and should be done. The portions of the legislation linked above are . . . confusing (to me) as to whether or not they actually DO this. So there probably are parts missing.

If the legislation itself is not complete, then I would think that the thing for those groups to do would be to to work to get those parts into the legislation so that it's made clear, rather than calling for the legislation to be defeated altogether.

130 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:46:58pm

re: #119 brookly red

that would create jobs, no?

it would...we need some new system of low impact incarceration for this type of stuff....county jails are maxed out...obsolete air force bases might be the ticket

131 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:47:13pm

Here's a bit of legal reasoning behind the bill.

Georgia's prostitution statute, O.C.G.A. § 16-6-9, states that a person commits the offense of prostitution when he or she performs or offers or consents to perform a sexual act, including but not limited to sexual intercourse or sodomy, for money or other items of value.[29] The statute does not have a minimum age provision, and thus includes all people, not distinguishing between adults and minors. This is problematic for a number of reasons.

First, the lack of a minimum age is inconsistent with Georgia's own views about the sexual autonomy of minors. Currently, the age of consent for sexual activity in Georgia is sixteen.[30] Adults who engage in consensual[31] non-commercial sexual behavior with individuals under the age of consent are subject to criminal prosecution, while the individual who is under the age of consent is not. For example, when a person violates O.C.G.A. § 16-6-3 by committing statutory rape, the statute provides that the victim will not be convicted.[32]

In the arena of commercial sexual exploitation, however, the law does not protect individuals under the age of consent; rather their behavior is criminalized. This is logically inconsistent. An American Bar Association (ABA) survey of state legislatures found that the reasons states prescribe an age of consent are: (1) to protect minors from sexual intercourse; (2) to protect minors below a certain age from predatory, exploitative sexual relationships; (3) to prevent or reduce teen pregnancy; (4) to reduce the number of young mothers on welfare; and (5) to promote responsibility and accountability in sexuality and parenting.[33] All of these purposes are better served by providing child victims of commercial sexual exploitation with the same protection afforded to other children who engage in early sexual behavior and criminalizing the adults who take advantage of them.
[Link: childwelfare.net...]

132 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:47:24pm

re: #124 DaddyG

Does the name Snake Pliskin ring a bell?

Back to Earnest Borgnine, are we?

133 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:47:52pm

re: #116 Guanxi88

Might be cheaper just to turn the country as a whole into a prison...

Who's gonna' be Snake Plissken?

134 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:48:51pm

re: #109 Charles

Senate bill to protect young prostitutes gains momentum.

There is probably a section of the bill missing from what's online.


I linked the proposed bills with the amendments earlier. The issue with including the diversionary programs in the same legislation is that the particular section of the Georgia Codes deals with what is criminal activity - not what to do with criminals or victims. Other legislation would have to be offered in tandem to provide those programs if they are not already in place for at risk teens and victims. I know of several programs for at risk teens outside of the Juvenile Justice and Corrections systems already.

135 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:49:32pm

re: #124 DaddyG

Does the name Snake Pliskin ring a bell?

GMTA.

136 generalsparky  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:08pm

re: #130 albusteve

it would...we need some new system of low impact incarceration for this type of stuff...county jails are maxed out...obsolete air force bases might be the ticket

We had a federal prison on Maxwell AFB. The inmates did all the grounds keeping. They were harmless, none had been convicted of violent crimes.

137 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:09pm

re: #131 jaunte
Thank you that helps a great deal.

138 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:17pm

re: #134 DaddyG

I linked the proposed bills with the amendments earlier. The issue with including the diversionary programs in the same legislation is that the particular section of the Georgia Codes deals with what is criminal activity - not what to do with criminals or victims. Other legislation would have to be offered in tandem to provide those programs if they are not already in place for at risk teens and victims. I know of several programs for at risk teens outside of the Juvenile Justice and Corrections systems already.

'deputize' them...give them some funding

139 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:37pm

re: #131 jaunte

Here's a bit of legal reasoning behind the bill.

All of these purposes are better served by providing child victims of commercial sexual exploitation with the same protection afforded to other children who engage in early sexual behavior and criminalizing the adults who take advantage of them.
[Link: childwelfare.net...]

That makes perfect sense to me.

So - it appears that these religious groups are opposing any sort of legislation to try to make the above happen, rather than working within the system to make sure the legislative intent is clear.

Is that about it?

140 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:59pm

re: #16 darthstar

I'd like to see what Ralph Reed has on his computer...on second thought, maybe it's better not knowing.

Good point.

Those who support draconian measures against "vice" are often the ones with the biggest suppressions goin' on. On the side they're bagnin' girls or boys two years younger than they age limit.

What? Do people think all those mob movies where they nail all those sanctimonious politicians with all those dead girls in all those brothels are just stories?

141 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:51:01pm

re: #138 albusteve

'deputize' them...give them some funding


They do great work. But the corrections and or education system has to refer the kids first.

142 abolitionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:51:20pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Gandhi being married young relates to this...how?

I missed a turn somewhere.

Me too; I don't understand why he was mentioned in #1.

143 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:51:29pm

re: #139 reine.de.tout

That makes perfect sense to me.

So - it appears that these religious groups are opposing any sort of legislation to try to make the above happen, rather than working within the system to make sure the legislative intent is clear.

Is that about it?


Knee meet Jerk.

144 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:51:33pm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

We're trying to work details from a very small portion of the relevant information. Some state legal codes have accumulated so much flotsam that even the lawyers can't find their way through them. The main gist of the controversy, however, seems obvious.

I hope that there is actually laws and mechanisms designed to have this bill (or this bill itself) work in conjunction with other codes that would tie the decriminalization in with mandatory programs.

Otherwise is could be problematic in my opinion. If there is no program tie in, courts and judges and the public system gets lazy, smart lawyers, and all that stuff could easily turn this into a mess that would be of no help to the young girls.

145 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:51:49pm

re: #136 generalsparky

We had a federal prison on Maxwell AFB. The inmates did all the grounds keeping. They were harmless, none had been convicted of violent crimes.

right...facilities are not really a problem, if the law allows you to serve your sentence in another state...that used to be a hitch as I recall

146 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:52:13pm

re: #139 reine.de.tout

It appears that they are content to blame the victims.

147 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:52:13pm

re: #143 DaddyG

Knee meet Jerk.

Takes me awhile to figure these things out.

148 DaddyG  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:52:48pm

BBL

149 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:53:40pm

re: #142 abolitionist

Me too; I don't understand why he was mentioned in #1.

See my surmise in my second post. It has been neither confirmed nor denied.

150 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:53:59pm

re: #146 jaunte

It appears that they are content to blame the victims.

you UNHOLY HEATHEN!
( at least they can't burn them at the stake)

151 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:54:42pm

re: #147 reine.de.tout

Takes me awhile to figure these things out.

me too...

152 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:54:54pm

SO, them here's the question of the day:

If passed, what would be used to compel a child prostitute into a treatment/rehabilitation.counseling program.

I'd imagine many if not most would have substance abuse and mental illness in their background; addicts and the mentally ill aren't known for seeking help on their own.

153 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:55:02pm

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

Yeah. I get the feeling this could not be applied evenly across the board.

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:55:34pm

re: #146 jaunte

It appears that they are content to blame the victims.

That's the freaky weird part to me about this Deadwyler person. She doesn't just seem to be saying she wants law and order, or she thinks this will have negative unintended consequences, she seems to think there are lots of young teens who would be turning tricks for pizza money if only it weren't for the fear of going to jail.

Not well-meaning, mean and indifferent to the real danger and violence faced by kids in this situation.

155 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:56:09pm

This comment from the web page where this article lives may shed some light on what we are concerned about (diversionary programs)...

The bill’s opponents seem to have not been following this issue over the past few years. Last year’s change through SB 69 ensures that police will not just walk on by children being exploited on the streets. Instead, they are now required to report them as abused children so that they may be provided appropriate services, instead of treated as criminals. And no one is legalizing prostitution. It will continue to be a serious felony for anyone to pimp or pander a child. The focus of prosecution will simply shift from the child victim to the adult exploiter.

156 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:56:46pm

re: #147 reine.de.tout

Takes me awhile to figure these things out.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Some of us are LWL (learning while lurking)...

157 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:57:05pm

I found something...

re: #152 Guanxi88

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

This comment from the web page where this article lives may shed some light on what we are concerned about (diversionary programs)...


The bill’s opponents seem to have not been following this issue over the past few years. Last year’s change through SB 69 ensures that police will not just walk on by children being exploited on the streets. Instead, they are now required to report them as abused children so that they may be provided appropriate services, instead of treated as criminals. And no one is legalizing prostitution. It will continue to be a serious felony for anyone to pimp or pander a child. The focus of prosecution will simply shift from the child victim to the adult exploiter.

158 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:58:08pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the freaky weird part to me about this Deadwyler person. She doesn't just seem to be saying she wants law and order, or she thinks this will have negative unintended consequences, she seems to think there are lots of young teens who would be turning tricks for pizza money if only it weren't for the fear of going to jail.

Not well-meaning, mean and indifferent to the real danger and violence faced by kids in this situation.

Children like "ours" are victims who must be protected. Children like "theirs"
turn tricks for drugs and pizza.

159 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:00:53pm

Let's not forget these same assholes of the Religious Right are against these child victims having access to reproductive healthcare and abortions without the father's consent...or at all. (Granted, the 'fathers' would be the first to a) deny any responsibility and b) pay for said services to keep the wife/congregation from finding out they were raping (statutorially speaking) kids younger than their own.)

160 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:01:47pm

re: #152 Guanxi88

SO, them here's the question of the day:

If passed, what would be used to compel a child prostitute into a treatment/rehabilitation.counseling program.

I'd imagine many if not most would have substance abuse and mental illness in their background; addicts and the mentally ill aren't known for seeking help on their own.

If not for the threat of legal penalties, what can be done to force people to undergo treatment and rehabilitation?

161 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:01:52pm

re: #159 darthstar

Let's not forget these same assholes of the Religious Right are against these child victims having access to reproductive healthcare and abortions without the father's consent...or at all. (Granted, the 'fathers' would be the first to a) deny any responsibility and b) pay for said services to keep the wife/congregation from finding out they were raping (statutorially speaking) kids younger than their own.)

Well, that was a gratuitous smear - nice touch, the incest angle.

Fell better?

162 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:02:14pm

We're past comment #150, so forgive me a shameless OT link...I told you that the analysis behind the December GDP numbers implied a run-up in orders propagating down the supply chain!

Factory sector activity - expansion!

163 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:02:40pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the freaky weird part to me about this Deadwyler person. She doesn't just seem to be saying she wants law and order, or she thinks this will have negative unintended consequences, she seems to think there are lots of young teens who would be turning tricks for pizza money if only it weren't for the fear of going to jail.

Not well-meaning, mean and indifferent to the real danger and violence faced by kids in this situation.

Yes, she seems to be lacking a clue or two.

164 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:02:43pm

re: #156 Aceofwhat?

Don't be too hard on yourself. Some of us are LWL (learning while lurking)...


Heh.
You just saw my "learning" process.
First, ask a buncha questions.
Then, try to sort it all into a some sort of pattern that my head can deal with.

165 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:03:07pm

re: #159 darthstar

Que? You mean "parental" consent?

166 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:03:07pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the freaky weird part to me about this Deadwyler person. She doesn't just seem to be saying she wants law and order, or she thinks this will have negative unintended consequences, she seems to think there are lots of young teens who would be turning tricks for pizza money if only it weren't for the fear of going to jail.

Not well-meaning, mean and indifferent to the real danger and violence faced by kids in this situation.

I have an idea. Why not take her on an intensive tour of the streets?

167 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:03:23pm

re: #159 darthstar

Let's not forget these same assholes of the Religious Right are against these child victims having access to reproductive healthcare and abortions without the father's consent...or at all. (Granted, the 'fathers' would be the first to a) deny any responsibility and b) pay for said services to keep the wife/congregation from finding out they were raping (statutorially speaking) kids younger than their own.)

Hyperbole.

168 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:03:33pm

re: #152 Guanxi88

SO, them here's the question of the day:

If passed, what would be used to compel a child prostitute into a treatment/rehabilitation.counseling program.

I'd imagine many if not most would have substance abuse and mental illness in their background; addicts and the mentally ill aren't known for seeking help on their own.

They might have to become (non-criminal) wards of the state of Georgia.

169 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:03:57pm

re: #160 MandyManners

If not for the threat of legal penalties, what can be done to force people to undergo treatment and rehabilitation?

Fifty states, fifty rules, but minors don't enjoy full civil rights. They can be taken from abusive parents and placed elsewhere against their will.

170 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:04:09pm

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

It's no wonder you did such good time... you didn't call me back after your late breakfast.

I try to limit my calling, texting, GPS reprogramming, Facebooking and LGFing while breaking the hell out of the speed limit. Tends to make the cops crankier when they pull you over.

Mind you, I've done all those things and worse while driving. Just not when cruising 15-55 mph over the posted.

171 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:04:12pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Heh.
You just saw my "learning" process.
First, ask a buncha questions.
Then, try to sort it all into a some sort of pattern that my head can deal with.

While I wait silently and seem oh so informed when i pop in 300 posts later! I'm not fooling anyone...

172 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:04:45pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

Que? You mean "parental" consent?

I think he means both "parental", and "father of the child". I think he's trying to talk about incest.

173 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:06:16pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

Well, that was a gratuitous smear - nice touch, the incest angle.

Fell better?

Sorry, but I disagree. The kids in question are just that, kids. The perps(johns, if that term works for you better) are adults, not other kids. It's perfectly reasonable to guess a man in his 30s to 40s is capable of having kids older than 16 himself. Having sex with a minor is a crime, regardless of whether that minor is a relative. And if that connection needs to be made to reach these assholes in the Religious Right, then so be it.

174 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:06:31pm

re: #169 Decatur Deb

Fifty states, fifty rules, but minors don't enjoy full civil rights. They can be taken from abusive parents and placed elsewhere against their will.

The thing is, some teens will run away from good homes so placing them back into their parents' homes will not ensure that they get the help they need. There must be the threat of punishment to get them to do what they must.

175 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:06:57pm

re: #159 darthstar

Let's not forget these same assholes of the Religious Right are against these child victims having access to reproductive healthcare and abortions without the father's consent...or at all. (Granted, the 'fathers' would be the first to a) deny any responsibility and b) pay for said services to keep the wife/congregation from finding out they were raping (statutorially speaking) kids younger than their own.)

Well...was Reine right? If "these same assholes" are insisting that the FATHER know, that's sorta creepy. If they're insisting that the MOTHER OR FATHER know, you're being dishonest. Whassup, skier?

176 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:07:31pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

Que? You mean "parental" consent?

Parental consent, yes...though there are people who argue the father of the fetus should have a say...regardless of who he is.

177 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:07:45pm

re: #175 Aceofwhat?

Well...was Reine right? If "these same assholes" are insisting that the FATHER know, that's sorta creepy. If they're insisting that the MOTHER OR FATHER know, you're being dishonest. Whassup, skier?

I think he's talking about the man who impregnated the teen.

178 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:08:16pm

re: #176 darthstar

Parental consent, yes...though there are people who argue the father of the fetus should have a say...regardless of who he is.

I stand corrected then.
Sorry I misunderstood you earlier.

179 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:08:41pm

re: #173 darthstar

Sorry, but I disagree. The kids in question are just that, kids. The perps(johns, if that term works for you better) are adults, not other kids. It's perfectly reasonable to guess a man in his 30s to 40s is capable of having kids older than 16 himself. Having sex with a minor is a crime, regardless of whether that minor is a relative. And if that connection needs to be made to reach these assholes in the Religious Right, then so be it.

So, just to clarify, the point of accusing them of hypocrisy and incestuous statutory rape was to convince them of the errors of their ways, and to recommend a useful path toward living up to the standards they espouse?

I ask, because it sounded an awful lot like someone venting his spleen on a "safe" target.

180 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:09:28pm

re: #174 MandyManners

The thing is, some teens will run away from good homes so placing them back into their parents' homes will not ensure that they get the help they need. There must be the threat of punishment to get them to do what they must.

True. You would basically have to rebuild these kids from the ground up, and the mechanisms to do it aren't there. Elder daughter teaches at a benign co-ed kids' jail. Many are better off there than where they came from.

181 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:10:04pm

re: #175 Aceofwhat?

Well...was Reine right? If "these same assholes" are insisting that the FATHER know, that's sorta creepy. If they're insisting that the MOTHER OR FATHER know, you're being dishonest. Whassup, skier?

I fear I'm being misunderstood...probably due to my typing in a bit of a rage at this subject. My intent was to point out that these are the same 'sanctity of life' people (which Charles actually did in the original post, so my comment was likely unnecessary).

Snow was epic this weekend, by the way. Totally. Fucking. Epic.

182 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:10:38pm

re: #180 Decatur Deb

True. You would basically have to rebuild these kids from the ground up, and the mechanisms to do it aren't there. Elder daughter teaches at a benign co-ed kids' jail. Many are better off there than where they came from.

Society cannot rescue everyone but, that should not mean we give up on all.

183 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:10:58pm

re: #182 MandyManners

Society cannot rescue everyone but, that should not mean we give up on all.

Starfish washed up on a beach.

184 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:10:59pm

re: #174 MandyManners

The thing is, some teens will run away from good homes so placing them back into their parents' homes will not ensure that they get the help they need. There must be the threat of punishment to get them to do what they must.

I don't know Mandy.
If the kid comes from a good loving home - I mean, if my kid needed help (and she has at times), there is NOTHING that would keep me from getting it for her.

185 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:11:02pm

re: #173 darthstar

Sorry, but I disagree. The kids in question are just that, kids. The perps(johns, if that term works for you better) are adults, not other kids. It's perfectly reasonable to guess a man in his 30s to 40s is capable of having kids older than 16 himself. Having sex with a minor is a crime, regardless of whether that minor is a relative. And if that connection needs to be made to reach these assholes in the Religious Right, then so be it.

Your all inclusive smear of the religious right was certainly gratuitous smear. I don't think anyone here doesn't agree with your general sentiment about having sex with a minor.

186 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:11:43pm

re: #181 darthstar

I fear I'm being misunderstood...probably due to my typing in a bit of a rage at this subject. My intent was to point out that these are the same 'sanctity of life' people (which Charles actually did in the original post, so my comment was likely unnecessary).

Snow was epic this weekend, by the way. Totally. Fucking. Epic.

you talking about N AZ on the Navajo rez?....a disaster

187 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:11:49pm

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

Your all inclusive smear of the religious right was certainly gratuitous smear. I don't think anyone here doesn't agree with your general sentiment about having sex with a minor.

Except for those bigoted, incestuous hypocrites of the religious right.

188 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:12:12pm

re: #180 Decatur Deb

Confinement and counseling with their peers (and not just a bunch of adult criminals, or ordinary juveniles) is likely to be the most effective treatment.

189 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:12:16pm

re: #177 MandyManners

I think he's talking about the man who impregnated the teen.

He was.
I misunderstood.

190 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:12:20pm

re: #179 Guanxi88

So, just to clarify, the point of accusing them of hypocrisy and incestuous statutory rape was to convince them of the errors of their ways, and to recommend a useful path toward living up to the standards they espouse?

I ask, because it sounded an awful lot like someone venting his spleen on a "safe" target.

Spleen vented. But yes, it is the hypocrisy that inspired the venting.

191 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:12:24pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Starfish washed up on a beach.

Was about to say that to Mandy. I'd really rather have smart systemic fixes, but then I'm a mad leftist.

192 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:12:57pm

re: #177 MandyManners

I think he's talking about the man who impregnated the teen.

Oohhh...ewww. That's much different. Is there really any group of people who think it's the impregnator rather than the parents of the teen who deserves consent?

193 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:13:29pm

re: #184 reine.de.tout

I don't know Mandy.
If the kid comes from a good loving home - I mean, if my kid needed help (and she has at times), there is NOTHING that would keep me from getting it for her.

I understand that but, there are famlies that *seem* good and loving from the outside (to authorities investigating for abuse/neglect) but, they're not.

194 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:13:37pm

re: #181 darthstar

I fear I'm being misunderstood...probably due to my typing in a bit of a rage at this subject. My intent was to point out that these are the same 'sanctity of life' people (which Charles actually did in the original post, so my comment was likely unnecessary).

Snow was epic this weekend, by the way. Totally. Fucking. Epic.

Have i mentioned that i hate you, deeply and truly?//

195 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:13:57pm

re: #178 reine.de.tout

I stand corrected then.
Sorry I misunderstood you earlier.

No worries.

196 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:14:14pm

re: #187 Guanxi88

Except for those bigoted, incestuous hypocrites of the religious right.

He didn't state that there was incest.

197 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:14:14pm

re: #190 darthstar

Spleen vented. But yes, it is the hypocrisy that inspired the venting.

Hey, it'll work for me.

It's a healthy thing; I do it myself, form time to time.

My boss goes into these fantastic rages of amazingly short duration. She says it prevents liver stagnation, and that's why she'll never get cancer. Or something

198 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:14:56pm

re: #181 darthstar

I fear I'm being misunderstood...probably due to my typing in a bit of a rage at this subject. My intent was to point out that these are the same 'sanctity of life' people (which Charles actually did in the original post, so my comment was likely unnecessary).

Snow was epic this weekend, by the way. Totally. Fucking. Epic.

There are a few sanctity of life assholes here.
However, I for one think it's an issue between kid and parents, and not the kid and whoever impregnated her.

199 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:05pm

Paternal and parental used to mean, for all legal intents and purposes, the same thing. Only the father had any rights in the family at all. Wasn't that long ago, either. Read any Jane Austen novel if anyone doubts that. Or any Victorian one, for that matter.

200 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:06pm

re: #187 Guanxi88

Except for those bigoted, incestuous hypocrites of the religious right.

Right. No one of any other religion (or lack thereof) would ever perform such an act...mmm-hmmm

201 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:07pm

re: #191 Decatur Deb

Was about to say that to Mandy. I'd really rather have smart systemic fixes, but then I'm a mad leftist.

Systems are as perfect as the humans who make them.

202 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:12pm

re: #196 MandyManners

He didn't state that there was incest.

Thanks.

203 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:32pm

re: #192 Aceofwhat?

Oohhh...ewww. That's much different. Is there really any group of people who think it's the impregnator rather than the parents of the teen who deserves consent?

It's her body.

204 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:15:59pm

re: #192 Aceofwhat?

Oohhh...ewww. That's much different. Is there really any group of people who think it's the impregnator rather than the parents of the teen who deserves consent?

Exactly.

205 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:16:32pm

re: #193 MandyManners

I understand that but, there are famlies that *seem* good and loving from the outside (to authorities investigating for abuse/neglect) but, they're not.

True.

206 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:17:11pm

re: #197 Guanxi88

Hey, it'll work for me.

It's a healthy thing; I do it myself, form time to time.

My boss goes into these fantastic rages of amazingly short duration. She says it prevents liver stagnation, and that's why she'll never get cancer. Or something

directed at you, or just in general? my boss will do that in general, but not to me. sorta wastes my time.

207 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:17:18pm

re: #202 darthstar

Thanks.

You're welcome.

208 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:17:51pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

Ted Bundy's family seemed to be nice.

209 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:18:13pm

re: #203 MandyManners

It's her body.

Not the impregnatED. The impregnatOR. Who is actually spending energy arguing that the rapist ought to be notified about whatever the girl (and maybe her parents) decide together?

210 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:18:15pm

re: #208 MandyManners

Ted Bundy's family seemed to be nice.

Hell . . . Ted Bundy seemed nice.
til he wasn't.

211 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:18:23pm

re: #206 Aceofwhat?

directed at you, or just in general? my boss will do that in general, but not to me. sorta wastes my time.

Just in general. Whoever it is, whatever it is, if it causes her the tiniest annoyance, out it all comes, and then she wonders what sort of tea she should have after lunch.

Now, there are some who say she's got problems, but shes' pretty sure it's just a healthy and normal thing that everyone should do.

212 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:18:47pm

re: #201 MandyManners

Systems are as perfect as the humans who make them.

Wild variations in quality, from excellent to nightmare. I went into an institution at nine--saved my life. Our society has abandoned that model, however.

213 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:19:49pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

Wild variations in quality, from excellent to nightmare. I went into an institution at nine--saved my life. Our society has abandoned that model, however.

Yep, I see a ton of poor souls out here on the streets.

For pete's sake - these are ill people - they're not malingering, they've got problems and need real help. A decent society, such as we used to be, wouldn't allow them to go through what they do now.

214 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:20:20pm

Time to step back and return when there's a more pleasant topic to discuss. Apologies for any misunderstandings.
Take care, all.

215 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:20:25pm

re: #209 Aceofwhat?

Not the impregnatED. The impregnatOR. Who is actually spending energy arguing that the rapist ought to be notified about whatever the girl (and maybe her parents) decide together?

I have a hard time forcing a sixteen-year-old girl to inform her parents about terminating a pregnancy. But, that argument is NOT one I'll enter.

216 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:21:13pm

re: #210 reine.de.tout

Hell . . . Ted Bundy seemed nice.
til he wasn't.

I bet there are thousands (millions?) of criminals whose families seemed nice.

217 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:21:38pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

Wild variations in quality, from excellent to nightmare. I went into an institution at nine--saved my life. Our society has abandoned that model, however.

And, now we have kids roaming the street.

218 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:21:54pm

re: #214 darthstar

Time to step back and return when there's a more pleasant topic to discuss. Apologies for any misunderstandings.
Take care, all.

See ya'!

219 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:22:42pm

Grill should be ready. Gonna' go slap some dead cow on it.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:22:57pm

re: #158 Decatur Deb

Children like "ours" are victims who must be protected. Children like "theirs"
turn tricks for drugs and pizza.

Sigh.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:24:46pm

re: #160 MandyManners

If not for the threat of legal penalties, what can be done to force people to undergo treatment and rehabilitation?

This is an underaged child we're talking about. Don't they become a ward of the court if they can't be sent home?

222 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:25:22pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

Yep, I see a ton of poor souls out here on the streets.

For pete's sake - these are ill people - they're not malingering, they've got problems and need real help. A decent society, such as we used to be, wouldn't allow them to go through what they do now.

And you know who was the vanguard of all that...

"The Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (CMHA) (also known as the Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act, Public Law 88-164, or the Mental Retardation and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act of 1963) was an act to provide federal funding for community mental health centers. This legislation was passed as part of John F. Kennedy's New Frontier. It led to considerable deinstitutionalization."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:25:23pm

re: #166 MandyManners

I have an idea. Why not take her on an intensive tour of the streets?

That sounds like fun!

224 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:26:36pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

And you know who was the vanguard of all that...

"The Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (CMHA) (also known as the Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act, Public Law 88-164, or the Mental Retardation and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act of 1963) was an act to provide federal funding for community mental health centers. This legislation was passed as part of John F. Kennedy's New Frontier. It led to considerable deinstitutionalization."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yep... those caring liberals...

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:29:55pm

re: #176 darthstar

Parental consent, yes...though there are people who argue the father of the fetus should have a say...regardless of who he is.

Well, those people are off their rockers if they feel that applies to the john who fathers a baby on an underage prostitute. He gets to spend the night in jail, pay his fine, and then pay child support for eighteen years. If he is very lucky, I will not kick him in the balls every year on the child's birthday.

/Ah, if I ruled the world.

226 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:31:48pm

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

Yep... those caring liberals...

It was wrong and it was right. There was tremendous reaction in the '50s to hideous conditions in some number of institutions. "Life" photographer Jerry Clark got a camera in one in NY (IIRC). I see de-instituionalization as an evil convergence of lefty social engineering and conservative efforts to cut spending.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:31:50pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Starfish washed up on a beach.

Well, starfish are God's chosen species.

228 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:33:38pm

re: #199 Cato the Elder

Paternal and parental used to mean, for all legal intents and purposes, the same thing. Only the father had any rights in the family at all. Wasn't that long ago, either. Read any Jane Austen novel if anyone doubts that. Or any Victorian one, for that matter.

Like Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, for example.

229 webevintage  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:42:40pm

Sue Ella Deadwyler, Capital Correspondent for Eagle Forum of Georgia

Eagle Forum.
That would explain the circle of moron that Sue Ellen seems to have achieved.

230 DodgerFan1988  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:54:24pm

The bill is design to help these minors escape the harsh realities of child prostitution, and escaping from their pimps. the status quo of throwing these underaged girls into prison is not working. These Christian Groups claims they are helping the victims but they are really making the problems worse.

231 ExCamelJockey  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:02:28pm

There's not enough detail in the posted snippets of these bills to make an informed decision.

Does this bill explain how exploited children are to be routed to care programs? If evidence of an exploited child is found what legal basis is there to route them to a care program? They've committed no crime according to the proposed bill. Are there other statutes that explain how CPS or other agencies get involved? If there is no verbiage detailing this then I would think this bill would be detrimental to the cause.


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