Anti-Vax Study Retracted by The Lancet

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British medical journal The Lancet has officially retracted the study they published in 1998 that began the still-spreading anti-vaccination craziness.

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Britain’s General Medical Council has issued a ruling as well, calling the research done by Dr. Andrew Wakefield for his discredited study linking MMR vaccine to autism “callous, unethical, and dishonest.”

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133 comments
1 AK-47%  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:11:43pm

I've seen the (lack of) needle and the damage done...

2 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:11:45pm

b-b-b-but jenny mccarthy

3 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:12:42pm

And the damage has of course already been done. The people who believe the anti-vax stuff religiously will never hear the truth again.

4 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:13:20pm

Huzzah! Huzzzay! The antivaxxers will ignore it anyway...

5 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:14:05pm

On another note, did Lancet ever retract that bogus report on Iraq casualties?

6 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:15:52pm

What will poor Jenny McCarthy do now?

7 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:16:12pm

The damage has been done; and this retraction is too little too late for thousands of kids who were needlessly exposed to measles, mumps, rubella, or other preventable diseases by parents who bought into this madness on the basis of a poorly sourced, researched, and small sample sized study:

Released in February 1998, it reported on just 12 children, aged between three and nine. They all had brain disorders and the parents of eight of them allegedly said that the first signs came on within days of their receiving the MMR vaccination.

In other words; it was a mess.

From this small sample size of just 12 - and on which the parents claimed that they noticed changed within days of vaccination, Wakefield created a whole cottage industry and the anti-vaxxers took hold.

8 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:16:16pm

You mean they aren't secretly controlling our mind with Flue Shots?

But how could Mr. X be wrong?

9 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:16:24pm

Bill Maher! What about BILL!
/

10 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:17:19pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

You mean they aren't secretly controlling our mind with Flue Shots?

But how could Mr. X be wrong?

because the control's not secret, of course. Everyone knows it. See, that's how they fool ya - they put their secret schemes right out there in the open, and that way.....

11 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:17:32pm

It's interesting to note that the original study was based on a group of only 12 children. If they had been selected randomly from a representative population, the margin of error for such a small sample would be around 30%.

But most of the many problems cited by the Lancet that led to the article's retraction revolved around the sampling being distinctly non-random and severely biased. At best, this makes any sort of analysis of the results impossible.

12 AK-47%  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:19:16pm

I have followed this debate closely, my first daughter was born in 1998.

I have encountered a lot of parents who are emotionally unable to do anything that they see as "harming" their child, even though it will aid in the long run.

We had a friend whose child learned to roll over and move about the same time as our daughter. She spent all day putting out padding so he would not bump his head on the hard floor when he rolled about.

When he learned to pull himself up, she was in a permanent tizzy, rushing over to hold him so he would not fall over and hurt himself.

We went to baby swimming, part of the excercise was to hoold the baby's head underwater briefly to get them used to it. She could not bring herself to do so.

And she refused to have her kids vaccinated...

13 researchok  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:19:25pm

Charles, you just made my day. Thanks for posting this.

This is the stuff that really matters.

14 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:20:58pm

This is the sort of stuff where I can agree with damned near any lizard here.

15 cliffster  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #7 lawhawk

You realize, of course, that no reputable doctors suggest not vaccinating your children, only that you wait until the children are older before giving them some of the ones they are currently given before the child's immune system is developed. If people are simply not getting their children vaccinated, they are acting alone.

16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:21:06pm

re: #6 webevintage

What will poor Jenny McCarthy do now?

Whatever happened to that TV show that she was supposed to be hosting?

17 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:22:30pm

I guess I should admit I was once an anti-vaccer and blamed my sons LDs on the vaccines he got as a young child.

I got over it, but will be forever embarrassed that I believed that BS and put my son and others around him (granted they were mostly anti-vaccers too) in danger.

18 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:23:22pm

While we are talking about pseudo science scaremongering, there's also pseudo pscience profiteering.
Vitamin D is well on it's way to becoming "the new vitamin C"...

[Link: well.blogs.nytimes.com...]

19 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:24:05pm

re: #14 Guanxi88

This is the sort of stuff where I can agree with damned near any lizard here.

Which of course makes the comments rather boring.

Give me an...

A for a Abortion!

B for Brand New Healthcare system! (Best I could think of)

C for Civilian trials of terrorists!

D for Docking defense spending!

And so on and so forth.

Not trying to tread jack just saying "peace makes for dull history" or however the saying goes....

20 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:24:44pm

re: #17 webevintage

I guess I should admit I was once an anti-vaccer and blamed my sons LDs on the vaccines he got as a young child.

I got over it, but will be forever embarrassed that I believed that BS and put my son and others around him (granted they were mostly anti-vaccers too) in danger.

With me it's a big virtue to be able to admit in public when you are wrong. Thanks for your honesty.

21 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:24:45pm

re: #15 cliffster

There are those who are working within the autism support communities to spread the gospel as it were about delaying or avoiding giving vaccines based on any number of theories and factors including holding off on giving them until their immune systems are more developed; that we have never before given so many in so short a time period so we should delay; etc. There are doctors who are sought out precisely because they ascribe to this - and are considered "reputable". It all depends on who you consider reputable.

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:24:53pm

re: #14 Guanxi88

We had one flame out over the subject. Take a wild guess where that one stood on the creationism/evolution issue?

23 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:24:56pm

re: #19 jamesfirecat

Which of course makes the comments rather boring.

Give me an...

A for a Abortion!

B for Brand New Healthcare system! (Best I could think of)

C for Civilian trials of terrorists!

D for Docking defense spending!

And so on and so forth.

Not trying to tread jack just saying "peace makes for dull history" or however the saying goes...

Cuckoo clocks, to paraphrase The Third Man's best monologue

24 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:25:03pm

Never let scientific data get in the way of your feelings!

///

25 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:25:30pm

From the article:

"Other proven charges included nine of mistreating developmentally challenged children: causing invasive “high-risk” research to be carried out without ethical approval and against their best clinical interests."

As well as this.

"Later that year I revealed he had patented a single measles vaccine which could succeed only in the wreckage of MMR."

Yeah, I would have liked to have had this guy treating my kids. Not.

26 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:26:08pm

Well it only took 12 years to retract a flawed study..Better late than never I suppose

27 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:26:10pm

Obviously Big Pharma sent some heavies to deliver a message to the pencil-necked geeks at Lancet.

No one in the Maher/McCarthy crowd will believe a word of it.

28 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:27:00pm

re: #18 Thanos

My mother in law got diagnosed with a vitamin D deficiency - and they thought it was actually a thyroid condition. Because doctors warned of the dangers of sun exposure, we in the US had gone in the opposite direction where many people don't get enough (leading to vitamin D deficiencies). It's easily fixed of course - spend some more time outdoors. But that doesn't actually make money for people, so the less efficient method of supplements comes into play.

29 The Shadow Do  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:27:03pm

What, 11-12 years to recant?

This really pisses me off. My grandaughter has been denied needed vaccinations over this. Her mother, my daughter, is a highly educated and science trained young woman - who fell into this hooey.

She is also stubborn as hell and quick to ire. I'll be sharing this with her anyway, for all the good it may do.

30 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:27:14pm

And you'll never hear about this on Oprah.

31 cliffster  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:27:46pm

re: #21 lawhawk

There are those who are working within the autism support communities to spread the gospel as it were about delaying or avoiding giving vaccines based on any number of theories and factors including holding off on giving them until their immune systems are more developed; that we have never before given so many in so short a time period so we should delay; etc. There are doctors who are sought out precisely because they ascribe to this - and are considered "reputable". It all depends on who you consider reputable.

That's fair to say, I suppose. I'll change that to say: If you look around at doctors that believe that there is substantial reason to be nervous about vaccinations, you will find that the overwhelming majority do not believe you should NOT get your child vaccinated, only that you should not give certain vaccinations as early as they are given, and that they should be spread out more.

32 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:28:58pm

What took so long to discover how bad the original work was? How does that happen?

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote

And the damage has of course already been done. The people who believe the anti-vax stuff religiously will never hear the truth again.

Something that insane paranoid leftists and insane paranoid socons can meet on!

They need to hold a convention. So we can lock the doors from the outside, cover it with brick and forget that anti-vax psychos ever existed.

34 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:04pm

re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote

How badly did the protocols of peer review and all the rest have to get to allow this to happen?

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:08pm

re: #2 SpaceJesus

b-b-b-but jenny mccarthy

FOOK Jenny McCarthy!!

/

36 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:25pm

re: #5 Thanos

I think they stand behind that one.

37 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:38pm

re: #33 WindUpBird

Something that insane paranoid leftists and insane paranoid socons can meet on!

They need to hold a convention. So we can lock the doors from the outside, cover it with brick and forget that anti-vax psychos ever existed.

Waste of a brick.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:39pm

re: #6 webevintage

What will poor Jenny McCarthy do now?

Exactly what she's been doing, but with greater fervor. This isn't based on science.

39 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:30:45pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

FOOK Jenny McCarthy!!

/

Well, yeah.

/

40 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:31:20pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

FOOK Jenny McCarthy!!

/

I would..But only after I got all my shots

41 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:31:42pm

re: #29 The Shadow Do

What, 11-12 years to recant?

This really pisses me off. My grandaughter has been denied needed vaccinations over this. Her mother, my daughter, is a highly educated and science trained young woman - who fell into this hooey.

She is also stubborn as hell and quick to ire. I'll be sharing this with her anyway, for all the good it may do.

Well, it took that long for the Lancet to retract the article. It has, however, been criticized by the overwhelming majority of it's coauthor's for several years, and it's results have never been replicated - an absolute necessity before accepting the results of such a small sample. Retraction, however, is a weighty action, and requires substantive proof of outright error or malfeasance before it takes place.

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:32:01pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly what she's been doing, but with greater fervor. This isn't based on science.


I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

43 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:32:05pm

This would be a triumph for science and reason if it had happened ten years ago when the problems with Wakefield's paper first came to light.
As it is, the delay itself is a monumental scandal, having allowed a fraudulent paper to blossom into a malignant social and cultural movement that is now self-sustaining.

44 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:32:33pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

FOOK Jenny McCarthy!!

/

I thought I recognized her in District 9.
/

45 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:33:25pm

re: #29 The Shadow Do

What, 11-12 years to recant?

This really pisses me off. My grandaughter has been denied needed vaccinations over this. Her mother, my daughter, is a highly educated and science trained young woman - who fell into this hooey.

She is also stubborn as hell and quick to ire. I'll be sharing this with her anyway, for all the good it may do.

Let us know how it goes. If the opinions of dozens of anonymous commenters imitating small reptiles will bring her around, send her to us!

46 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:33:27pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

I met them once...Crazy but pretty cool Cats

47 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:33:36pm

re: #18 Thanos

This butthole is selling a B12 supplement MLM scam as a cure for alzheimers on his TBN show.

48 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:35:06pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

Its kind of a reverse World Forum. Instead of getting Marx, Lenin, Che and Mao together to ask about soccer, we could get Jenny, ICP, GWAR and Tila Tequila together and ask them questions about science and philosophy.

49 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:35:58pm

re: #47 Slumbering Behemoth

This butthole is selling a B12 supplement MLM scam as a cure for alzheimers on his TBN show.

That kind of linkage is nearly universal among antiscience religionists and reflects the real motive behind their ongoing campaign to discredit science. As Rush Limbaugh ironically says, "Follow the money trail."

50 The Shadow Do  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:36:03pm

re: #33 WindUpBird

Something that insane paranoid leftists and insane paranoid socons can meet on!

They need to hold a convention. So we can lock the doors from the outside, cover it with brick and forget that anti-vax psychos ever existed.

The instinct to protect one's children is primal. The psyco epithet is uncalled for. Be angry with those who created and promulgated this hoax. A lot of parents and kids will have suffered because of them. Criminal in by book.

51 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:36:19pm

Why is it that most of the extreme granola-bar/anti-vax/organic/ultra-green ecofreaks I know are women? Specifically, pampered, borderline psycho women with husbands who earn enough to indulge their every freakish whim? Instead of Manolo shoes, they're buying "certified organic everything that costs five times as much as the normal stuff, and freaking out and firing the maid if she innocently uses Pine-Sol by mistake.

I've never met a man who was upset about the lead in his bullets.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:36:55pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

Sure, why not?

53 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:37:25pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

54 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:38:25pm

re: #29 The Shadow Do

What, 11-12 years to recant?

This really pisses me off. My grandaughter has been denied needed vaccinations over this. Her mother, my daughter, is a highly educated and science trained young woman - who fell into this hooey.

She is also stubborn as hell and quick to ire. I'll be sharing this with her anyway, for all the good it may do.

My daughter, a biology teacher, has an autistic child. She fell into this, but we have managed to walk her back. The need for an explanation is overwhelming. It doesn't help that SIL is a libertarian true believer. (Full disclosure applicable to previous thread.)

55 brookly red  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:38:36pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

wow, organic bullets? could be a nitch market...

56 Neutral President  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:38:49pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

People who have to invent things to worry or complain about. That describes just about everyone in the US above the poverty line.

57 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:38:58pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Why is it that most of the extreme granola-bar/anti-vax/organic/ultra-green ecofreaks I know are women? Specifically, pampered, borderline psycho women with husbands who earn enough to indulge their every freakish whim? Instead of Manolo shoes, they're buying "certified organic everything that costs five times as much as the normal stuff, and freaking out and firing the maid if she innocently uses Pine-Sol by mistake.

I've never met a man who was upset about the lead in his bullets.

I only use bullets which are hand made locally, using lead hand mined by the Amish, and the powder made with naturally occuring guano and sulphur.

///

58 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:39:26pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

Nothing at all. Faygo protects against all known or unknown diseases.

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:40:06pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Why is it that most of the extreme granola-bar/anti-vax/organic/ultra-green ecofreaks I know are women?

Not all anti-vaxers fit that mold. We had one here that was a gun-toting, evolution denying, bitter clinger. Just sayin'.

60 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:40:59pm

re: #43 Shiplord Kirel

This would be a triumph for science and reason if it had happened ten years ago when the problems with Wakefield's paper first came to light.
As it is, the delay itself is a monumental scandal, having allowed a fraudulent paper to blossom into a malignant social and cultural movement that is now self-sustaining.

Honest screw ups are usually detected and corrected quite rapidly. Deliberate fraud, not surprisingly, is much more difficult to ferret out, and even more difficult to prove, since you're not going to get much help from the perpetrators. Most cases of scientific fraud take years to prove to the point where they're retracted.

That said, the problem goes beyond the morons who believed this, despite many other research results that exonerated vaccines. Most important, the paper has probably been cited hundreds or thousands of times in other papers, making it look like a valid reference long beyond it's withdrawal.

The Kinsey sex reports, exposed many years ago as hackneyed and fraudulent, are still cited to this day because they've been cited by other works, directly or indirectly, to the point where it's almost impossible to spend any time researching the topic before one runs across multiple references back to the original publications. So researchers, warm and fuzzy from the number of peers pointing approvingly in the same direction, go there themselves, swallow, and another citation finds it's way into the literature.

It's a very real problem with the peer review and publication process.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:41:38pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Why is it that most of the extreme granola-bar/anti-vax/organic/ultra-green ecofreaks I know are women? Specifically, pampered, borderline psycho women with husbands who earn enough to indulge their every freakish whim? Instead of Manolo shoes, they're buying "certified organic everything that costs five times as much as the normal stuff, and freaking out and firing the maid if she innocently uses Pine-Sol by mistake.

I've never met a man who was upset about the lead in his bullets.

Controlling their environment, protecting their children. Albeit in a neurotic way.

Also, social status thing. The Princess and the Pea is now the affluent Marin woman sensitive enough to be allergic to every goddamn thing on the planet.

(In my own family, the princess/pea situation played out when my future husband demanded to know why I had a large rock tucked under the mattress on the floor in my post-grad-school apartment. I hadn't noticed the rock was there. He made a huge fuss about removing it.

62 The Shadow Do  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:41:54pm

re: #57 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I only use bullets which are hand made locally, using lead hand mined by the Amish, and the powder made with naturally occuring guano and sulphur.

///

Propelled through a cane tube (sustainable you know)

63 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:41:57pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Why is it that most of the extreme granola-bar/anti-vax/organic/ultra-green ecofreaks I know are women? Specifically, pampered, borderline psycho women with husbands who earn enough to indulge their every freakish whim? Instead of Manolo shoes, they're buying "certified organic everything that costs five times as much as the normal stuff, and freaking out and firing the maid if she innocently uses Pine-Sol by mistake.

I've never met a man who was upset about the lead in his bullets.

Since you're citing anecdotal evidence (negative in this case), I happen to know a professional gunsmith who lives, breathes, and excretes firearms and ammunition, but who has spent thousands of dollars on chelation therapy in an effort to rid himself of alleged mercury poisoning caused by his amalgam fillings. The fillings were removed many years ago.

64 Neutral President  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:42:18pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

Not all anti-vaxers fit that mold. We had one here that was a gun-toting, evolution denying, bitter clinger. Just sayin'.

A couple of people I know fit exactly in the category that Cato described. They spend time watching Oprah too.

The ones who don't: It's the fundamentalist Christian in them that makes them distrust doctors and big pharma.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:42:37pm

re: #57 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I only use bullets which are hand made locally, using lead hand mined by the Amish, and the powder made with naturally occuring guano and sulphur.

///

The Amish will sell you lead for bullets? That doesn't seem very Anabaptist of them.

66 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:43:09pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist


(In my own family, the princess/pea situation played out when my future husband demanded to know why I had a large rock tucked under the mattress on the floor in my post-grad-school apartment. I hadn't noticed the rock was there. He made a huge fuss about removing it.

Simple male instinct for self-preservation.

67 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:43:17pm

re: #47 Slumbering Behemoth

This butthole is selling a B12 supplement MLM scam as a cure for alzheimers on his TBN show.

Homeopathy and crap science pimps are all over, and they are making tons of money.

This has touched me personally - my mother is undergoing treatment for stage IV lung cancer - she's on the best treatment regime we can find (and believe me when I say I've done a lot of research, sought four separate opinions, and I even know all too well what EFGR's are and which populations respond best to TK inhibitor treatment). Meanwhile my sisters are looking everywhere for something hopeful since survival prognosis past 18 months is

68 researchok  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:43:20pm

I for one believe this crust pizza cures cancer. I also believe Chicago deep dish pizza causes cancer.

69 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:43:32pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

The Amish will sell you lead for bullets? That doesn't seem very Anabaptist of them.

I wouldn't be surprised - they brew fine cider, and grow some of the best tobacco in these States.

70 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:44:01pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

The Amish will sell you lead for bullets? That doesn't seem very Anabaptist of them.

Its sold by a group of rogue militant Amish. I pay them in buttons.

71 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:44:01pm

re: #57 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Funny you should mention that I wanted to use recycled lead for my reloading, but darn it the LA coroner just would not cooperate.
///

72 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:44:20pm

re: #68 researchok

I for one believe this crust pizza cures cancer. I also believe Chicago deep dish pizza causes cancer.

Luddite!
/

73 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:10pm

re: #62 The Shadow Do

Propelled through a cane tube (sustainable you know)

And the bullet's victim is, of course, bio-degradable.

74 researchok  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:17pm

re: #67 Thanos

A speedy recovery to her and others so afflicted.

75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #55 brookly red

wow, organic bullets? could be a nitch market...

Here you go, complete with an organic gun.

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:27pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

For some reason, this train of thought reminds me of a scene in one of Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez's novels where one of the characters is worried about letting her SIL babysit. The SIL is a nice woman, but she feeds her kids 'orange drink' and 'cheese stuff', and uses double negatives, such as "I don't see nothing wrong with orange drink and cheese stuff."

77 brookly red  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:33pm

re: #68 researchok

I for one believe this crust pizza cures cancer. I also believe Chicago deep dish pizza causes cancer.

the risk is greatly increased with the addition of pineapple...

78 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:45:48pm

re: #67 Thanos

Homeopathy and crap science pimps are all over, and they are making tons of money.

This has touched me personally - my mother is undergoing treatment for stage IV lung cancer - she's on the best treatment regime we can find (and believe me when I say I've done a lot of research, sought four separate opinions, and I even know all too well what EFGR's are and which populations respond best to TK inhibitor treatment). Meanwhile my sisters are looking everywhere for something hopeful since survival prognosis past 18 months is

Second half cut off, but to summarize it's pretty heartbreaking to have to debunk the pseudo pscience treament site links my three sisters send me one by one through research. So far they haven't fallen for the snake oil.

79 SteveC  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:46:34pm

re: #2 SpaceJesus

b-b-b-but jenny mccarthy

...Is full of shit. 'Nuff Said!

80 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:46:42pm

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

How badly did the protocols of peer review and all the rest have to get to allow this to happen?

Well like I said, bad papers do occaisionally get published. However, before you question the scientific community too much, plaese note that the rest of the scientific community came down on that paper like a ton of bricks really quickly.

Right, science worked. It did its job and the paper was roundly debunked.

However, roundly debunked "science" still makes it into the MSM. The MSM is about sensationalism not science.

81 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:46:59pm

re: #67 Thanos

Desperate people are usually not skeptical people. My heart's out to your mother & family in this time.

82 The Shadow Do  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:47:01pm

re: #73 The Sanity Inspector

And the bullet's victim is, of course, bio-degradable.

And recylcable if you leave them out on Wednesday in that little green bin with the leafy logo on it.

83 Kragar  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:47:30pm

re: #82 The Shadow Do

And recylcable if you leave them out on Wednesday in that little green bin with the leafy logo on it.

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!

84 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:48:20pm

re: #82 The Shadow Do

And recylcable if you leave them out on Wednesday in that little green bin with the leafy logo on it.

We're composters. Take nothing from the soil that you don't put back, and all that stuff.

85 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:48:29pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its sold by a group of rogue militant Amish. I pay them in buttons.

You should see the shit the militant wing of the Salvation Army will sell you...
I've got a fine M1-A1 Tank with racing stripes parked in the driveway...I give away Stinger missile launchers for Christmas cause nothing says I love you like shoulder launching a missile on a boring Saturday morning.

86 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:48:49pm

re: #68 researchok

I for one believe this crust pizza cures cancer. I also believe Chicago deep dish pizza causes cancer.

That's not your stomach rumbling, it's your arteries whimpering.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:48:50pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its sold by a group of rogue militant Amish. I pay them in buttons.

OK, that's GOOD.

Quote from Bones:

"I would think you would be more understand of the Amish community, based on your own religious beliefs."

"It's not the same thing. We reject Satan. They reject buttons."

88 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:50:14pm

re: #5 Thanos

Ah yes - I remember.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths, indicated that many of the excess deaths have occurred due to aerial attacks by coalition forces, with women and children being frequent victims, wrote the international team of public health researchers making the calculations.

Nothing like extrapolating from a small data set.

They did the same with the anti-vax study.

But now that it has been out there all these years, every anecdotal event serves as "another case" that "proves" the faulty premise.

89 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:50:43pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, that's GOOD.

Quote from Bones:

"I would think you would be more understand of the Amish community, based on your own religious beliefs."

"It's not the same thing. We reject Satan. They reject buttons."

I love Bones...and not just because Angel is in it.

BTW.
LOST.
Tonight.
Respond accordingly people.

90 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:51:15pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

The Princess and the Pea is the perfect analogy.

"Look at me, I'm so sensitive I can puke if someone even mentions chlorine!"

I know someone who won't even let her husband wear her woolen hat because she can't control where he goes with it. She bought him an identical one, wrote his initials on the tag, and checks to make sure he's not using hers.

And she pays twice as much for "organic" wine to drink while she whines organically.

I give their marriage another two years, max.

91 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:52:56pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

snip...

"It's not the same thing. We reject Satan. They reject buttons."

Years ago the small Sears store in Lancaster had two clothing sections. The large metal lettering over the Amish clothes read "P L A I N". The letters over the modern clothes were "G A Y". wonder if it's been changed.

92 Donna Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:53:48pm

Hello everyone, happy Tuesday to you all, I see you are all fired up about the topic at hand.

93 AK-47%  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:54:57pm

re: #90 Cato the Elder

The Princess and the Pea is the perfect analogy.

"Look at me, I'm so sensitive I can puke if someone even mentions chlorine!"

I know someone who won't even let her husband wear her woolen hat because she can't control where he goes with it. She bought him an identical one, wrote his initials on the tag, and checks to make sure he's not using hers.

And she pays twice as much for "organic" wine to drink while she whines organically.

I give their marriage another two years, max.

We are dealing with certain personality types (i.e. disorders here), lack of any self-confidence and trying to mekt up for it by controlling every detail.

These are people who cannot bring themselves to "harm" their child, and a vaccination often does have visible side effects, such as fever or cold-like symptoms.

And fear of "inflicting" this on their child is enough to convince them to deny their child useful medical care.

94 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:56:17pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

FOOK Jenny McCarthy!!

/

uhg, no thanks. i would never immaculately conceive anything anywhere near her.

95 SteveC  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:56:44pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

The Amish will sell you lead for bullets? That doesn't seem very Anabaptist of them.

Don't know about bullets, but according to those ads in my newspaper they are selling those "Amish Heaters" hand over fist!

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #84 Guanxi88

We're composters. Take nothing from the soil that you don't put back, and all that stuff.

I've always sort of liked the idea of donating my body to one of those research places where they leave you out and see what happens.

97 Fenris  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:58:14pm

It took them twelve years to retract the study?

98 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:58:25pm

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Controlling their environment, protecting their children. Albeit in a neurotic way.

It is also the need to have an explanation something or someone to blame.
Of course my rational brain tells me that bad shit just happens, but my heart wants a reason why this kid who is so smart (and he is) in conversation is also unable to write what is in his head on paper, still struggles with reading at 17 and is very lucky there is such a thing as calculators.
Thank the gods for technology.

99 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 1:58:44pm

re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote

And the damage has of course already been done. The people who believe the anti-vax stuff religiously will never hear the truth again.

It took a mumps outbreak for my daughter-in-law to line up all her kids for the vaccinations.

100 Donna Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:00:41pm

re: #90 Cato the Elder

If I might interject a note here about sensitivity and chemicals, I have an sensitivity to strong smells and cleaning products. I have had asthma for over 5 years now any my sensitivity to strong smells and heavy cleaning products like bleach and pinesol that I switched to the more natural cleaners and my asthma has settled down some what. I also cannot be near people who wear heavy cologne, especially women because they will both give me a headache and set off my asthma in the worst way. As for "princess and the pea" analogy I have to brush my mattress down every night because the wrinkles make my skin hurt. I have had that particular problem since childhood, I guess it because of my Rheumatoid Arthritis. I have found that many, many people don't have these problems so they look at me like I'm crazy and need to be locked up in a funny farm.

101 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:00:52pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

I've always sort of liked the idea of donating my body to one of those research places where they leave you out and see what happens.


My mother has already said that when she's done with it, the local hospital can have her body. Anything and everything they could want from it, is theirs, cause she says she's done with it.

102 The Shadow Do  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:00:53pm

re: #97 fenrisdesigns

It took them twelve years to retract the study?

And about fifteen minutes to publish the original work evidently.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:01:05pm

re: #89 webevintage

I love Bones...and not just because Angel is in it.

BTW.
LOST.
Tonight.
Respond accordingly people.

I didn't think Borenaz was all that hot when he was Angel. Booth, however, is yummy.

And all the women on that show are so incredibly beautiful, in really unique ways.

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:01:15pm

re: #99 Alouette

It took a mumps outbreak for my daughter-in-law to line up all her kids for the vaccinations.

And it will take NY underwater to get some to believe that AGW is bad and real, but by then it will be way too late.

105 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:02:04pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

I didn't think Borenaz was all that hot when he was Angel. Booth, however, is yummy.

he has aged quite well....

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:02:43pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Years ago the small Sears store in Lancaster had two clothing sections. The large metal lettering over the Amish clothes read "P L A I N". The letters over the modern clothes were "G A Y". wonder if it's been changed.

There's a bird on the Texas border called a plain chachalaca. I have always wondered if there is an English chachalaca as well.

107 exelwood  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:02:59pm

It's truly sad when people swallow bad science especially when they both act on it and proselytize it. Rigid believers will never accept findings contrary to dogma they have internalized as the "truth" no matter who it ends up hurting.

Those folks will simply say this information is all a plot by those who can't see the truth. Wonder what motivates people to do these things?

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:03:29pm

re: #95 SteveC

Don't know about bullets, but according to those ads in my newspaper they are selling those "Amish Heaters" hand over fist!

Well, yes, they sell stuff. They're just also nonviolent.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:04:24pm

re: #98 webevintage

It is also the need to have an explanation something or someone to blame.
Of course my rational brain tells me that bad shit just happens, but my heart wants a reason why this kid who is so smart (and he is) in conversation is also unable to write what is in his head on paper, still struggles with reading at 17 and is very lucky there is such a thing as calculators.
Thank the gods for technology.

I have to say, I don't think Cato and I are talking about even the ordinary non-vaccinating parent. These are the queens of organic crazy...

110 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:04:42pm

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, yes, they sell stuff. They're just also nonviolent.

Repeat his quote in an Edgar G. Robinson voice.

111 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:05:23pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

Repeat his quote in an Edgar G. Robinson voice.

Don't think she's down on the obsolete yegg slang.

112 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:06:37pm

re: #95 SteveC

Don't know about bullets, but according to those ads in my newspaper they are selling those "Amish Heaters" hand over fist!

Mak'st thou mine day, English!

113 webevintage  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:07:15pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to say, I don't think Cato and I are talking about even the ordinary non-vaccinating parent. These are the queens of organic crazy...

Oh I know.
Because when son was younger we hung out with the crazy folks who take everything way to far...I know these women.
Luckily my husband was way more grounded (and broke) and just looked at me like I was crazy when I would mention what so and so bought the other day or what new crazy thing another family was doing.

114 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:07:54pm

re: #113 webevintage

Oh I know.
Because when son was younger we hung out with the crazy folks who take everything way to far...I know these women.
Luckily my husband was way more grounded (and broke) and just looked at me like I was crazy when I would mention what so and so bought the other day or what new crazy thing another family was doing.

Poverty or even just slim means, can be a wonderful way of sorting out one's priorities.

115 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:09:50pm

re: #114 Guanxi88

Poverty or even just slim means, can be a wonderful way of sorting out one's priorities.

Lotta prioritizers these days.

116 Donna Ballard  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:11:55pm

Ever since I missed out on the Flu shot about 8 or 9 years ago I have made an extream effort to get the yearly vaccination that comes out. I have an Auto Immune Disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis that makes me extremely susceptible to viruses and bacterial infections including sinus infection and bronchitis. If people would just wash their hands more often and STAY HOME when their running a fever maybe I wouldn't have to be so phobic about touching anything with out spraying my hands with sanitizer so much! I used to get sick a lot when I worked downtown because they didn't see the need to even though they were running a fever. Fever = Contagious, a lot of people just don't understand that little bit of reasoning. I wish the medical community would start public service announcements about that sort of thing. Maybe people like me might be able to avoid getting ill so often.

117 Guanxi88  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:12:03pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

Lotta prioritizers these days.

yeah, I'd frankly hope that no one would ever have to go to that school. As a hopeful future graduate, I'd just as soon that alma mater were shut down.

118 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:13:43pm

re: #117 Guanxi88

yeah, I'd frankly hope that no one would ever have to go to that school. As a hopeful future graduate, I'd just as soon that alma mater were shut down.

The planets are aligning, but too slowly.

119 mommydoc  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:13:47pm

Now if they will only publicize the fact that the deaths associated with HPV vaccination had no relation to the vaccines: pulmonary embolism (blood clots in the lung) in smokers taking oral contraceptives and diabetic ketoacidosis in a poorly controlled diabetic, for example. Even my own brother, a highly trained subspecialist in cardiology has fallen for that bulls**t and refuses to have his daughters vaccinated. Fool.

120 Funky_Gibbon  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:19:38pm

And even after all of this Wakefield is still claiming he's right and everyone else is wrong. I remember a radio interview he did several years ago when one of the other people who signed their names to his bullshit scientific fraud came out and said they no longer believed it was true. He accused them on air of being influence by 'them', as if he was the sole person to be fighting for the truth in some bad conspiracy movie film.

And now he's working somewhere in America... As a Brit you have my apologies and sympathies for unleashing this megalomaniac amoral dick on you. He should have been stripped of his right to practice medicine long ago. Better yet jailed for manslaughter for all the unnecessary deaths and maiming he's caused.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:24:03pm

re: #111 Guanxi88

Don't think she's down on the obsolete yegg slang.

OOOOOOHHHHH.

OK, that took about fifteen minutes. Heaters. Yes. Heheheh.

122 prairiefire  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:34:59pm

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

Or a snazzy chachalaca.

123 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:41:52pm

re: #120 Funky_Gibbon

And even after all of this Wakefield is still claiming he's right and everyone else is wrong. I remember a radio interview he did several years ago when one of the other people who signed their names to his bullshit scientific fraud came out and said they no longer believed it was true. He accused them on air of being influence by 'them', as if he was the sole person to be fighting for the truth in some bad conspiracy movie film.

And now he's working somewhere in America... As a Brit you have my apologies and sympathies for unleashing this megalomaniac amoral dick on you. He should have been stripped of his right to practice medicine long ago. Better yet jailed for manslaughter for all the unnecessary deaths and maiming he's caused.

Won't matter to the true believers like Jenny McCarthy...they'll just say The Lancet folded under pressure from the US and British governments and Big Pharma.

/sad but true

124 Stanghazi  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 2:59:14pm

Shame.

125 goanna  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 4:04:07pm

This is good news. Unfortunately anti-vaccination people will probably not be convinced. There were plenty around before the Lancet paper.

126 ovoid  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 4:24:36pm

The mercury/autism link deniers are coming out of the woodwork.
The science is unsettled.
Heh.

127 yenta-fada  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 6:39:19pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

Well, you never met the mayor of Toronto, David Miller and his city council. Taxes sky high and they are blocking already limited traffic lanes to the city core for the few insane cyclists that ride around in the Canadian winter. Oh yeah, and they are planting trees on the roofs of a few buildings at great cost.

128 Jolo5309  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:27:51am

re: #42 WindUpBird

I'd seriously rather hear what the Insane Clown Posse has to say on vaccinations.

I believe the song was on their Riddle Box album, and it was something like this:

I took my kid to the doc
He said "Joe we gotta talk"
Your boy he needs his baby shots
This MMR stuff we got lots
It stops the mumps and rubella
Now listen joe, I gotta tellya
About the real vaccine sitch
Jenny, she is one dumb bitch

and so on...

129 Sacred Plants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:27:29am

Another proof that treating the skepticism against the vaccination industry as a disease does not make it go away (and there is no vaccination against it either).

What is missing in this calculation is the long-term risk in creating immunological monoculture. Even if a certain vaccination might protect against a known threat, everyone receiving the same treatment will make the entire population more volatile to unknown threats. The vaccination industry cannot make a rational balance which one is the bigger risk for humanity, but will always tend to see the unknown threat as the next business opportunity. The effects of this are well known from the software industry (ironically just those softwaremakers which now relocate their wealth into the vaccination industry).

From the aspect of intergenerational justice however the wisest thing to do about contagious diseases would be to tackle the root cause of their increase, the animal overpopulation.

130 Pacific moderate  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:17:34am

re: #126 ovoid
Wakefield isn't particularly associated with the alleged vaccine mercury (thimerosal) autism connection. That connection actually had some epidemiological and experimental data supporting it in the 1990s and early 2000s. Coupled with ethical lapses in the pharmaceutical industry and the decline of science-based medical research oversight during the second Bush administration, there was ample reason to suspect a connection. As it turned out, the connection did NOT pan out after more thorough research over the past five years (e.g., the lack of a falloff in new autism diagnoses in California once the thimerosal-free cohorts started reporting), but it was still worth investigating.

Wakefield's association, however, is with the far more fringe-like association of MMR with autism, a position that is controversial even within the DAN community. Though I'm convinced that there's nothing there, I'm still concerned about elements of this case that seem to have taken on the quality of a witch hunt.

131 Stevie the K  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:09:17pm

as a result of all this I am through doubting all the global warming data.
'Cause as we all know, there's total certainty about all of this.

132 ak47pundit  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:22:22pm

Now, how long it will take to convince the multitudes of credulous anti-vaxxers that the study really is wrong, or how long should we wait to hear calls of a conspiracy voiding the study from the anti-vaxxers?

133 Lib Wingnut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:00:09pm

As the parent of an 8-year-old boy and a 15-month old girl in NYC, this has been an ongoing, very emotional debate amongst our friends. This study has been the linchpin of many, many arguments we've had. I'm hoping this retraction changes some minds (minds that, sadly, in our little group, are usually desperate parents of autistic kids) and brings people back into the fold of scientific rationality. Thank you, Charles. We love you!


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