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638 comments
1 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:54:24pm

His beak can hold more than his belly can!

2 Silvergirl  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:55:36pm

A pelican on asphalt. Get back to your native habitat! Beware the wig-wag lights!

3 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:56:38pm

One of the original B-1 prototypes was lost after it ran into a pelican like this one. The impact of a large bird like that can down any plane.

4 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:56:46pm

Me, I liked the road runners in the Mojave. No pelicans that far inland.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:58:44pm

My grandmother always said she wanted to be reincarnated as a pelican. Now when we see them, they remind us of her.

6 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 10:59:59pm
7 Gus  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:00:42pm
9 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:06:56pm

God you guys. It's topical, it's lying right here and nobody's picked it up.


PELICAN: Strung up from the Sky

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:07:05pm

Good night all.

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:07:28pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

Good night all.

NIGHTzOR!

12 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:09:26pm

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

My grandmother always said she wanted to be reincarnated as a pelican. Now when we see them, they remind us of her.

I want to be reincarnated as a dog.

They're smarter than we are (have you ever met a dog who was worried about retirement?) and when they pee on a tree, no one threatens them with a fine for indecent exposure.

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:11:49pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

I want to be reincarnated as a dog.

They're smarter than we are (have you ever met a dog who was worried about retirement?) and when they pee on a tree, no one threatens them with a fine for indecent exposure.

Dogs never ever have to wait in line at the DMV.

14 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:18:38pm
15 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:23:09pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

Betcha didn't see that one coming!

The pelicans watch. Watching and waiting, ever vigilant, seething in their barely contained rage. One day they shall have this Earth, and they shall drive the pink interlopers into the volcanoes and the abyss, and take their rightful place as its heirs.

16 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:25:53pm

For those of you who still occasionally write with real ink, by the way, the Pelican brand of pens reigns supreme.

I have one that's two decades old and no sign of wear or malfunction. It even writes well if you're a lefty.

And so, good night and good luck.

18 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:28:35pm

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

My grandmother always said she wanted to be reincarnated as a pelican. Now when we see them, they remind us of her.

I know what you mean.

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:31:40pm

re: #18 goddamnedfrank

I know what you mean.

How many of these photos are there? :D

20 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:34:23pm

re: #19 WindUpBird

How many of these photos are there? :D

re: #15 WindUpBird

The pelicans watch. Watching and waiting, ever vigilant, seething in their barely contained rage. One day they shall have this Earth, and they shall drive the pink interlopers into the volcanoes and the abyss, and take their rightful place as its heirs.

...Z.O.M.F.G....
:D

21 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 11:50:25pm

re: #19 WindUpBird

How many of these photos are there? :D

I'm not quite sure, but I think I'm scrapping the bottom of one trippy ass barrel with this one. Frank out!

22 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:04:37am

I'm off to bed. Sleep well, all.

23 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:12:39am

What I'm thinking about right now is how to apply the fundie take on homosexuality to other areas.

The fundies say that it's no sin to be gay, it's only wrong to act that way.

So I propose a new law.

It's no crime to be stupid, but stupid behavior shall be punished to the fullest extent allowed by statute. This is, of course, something for each individual state to decide. In Oregon, acting stupid could result in a fine or community service. In Texas, it could bring you a life sentence.

I think America is not only in need of such a law, but cries out for it daily.

24 Lidane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:21:20am

re: #23 Cato the Elder

It's no crime to be stupid, but stupid behavior shall be punished to the fullest extent allowed by statute. This is, of course, something for each individual state to decide. In Oregon, acting stupid could result in a fine or community service. In Texas, it could bring you a life sentence.

There's just one problem with this-- I don't trust the Texas Legislature to be able to decide what behavior is stupid and what isn't, especially since they only meet every other year as it is.

Given our current governor and his idiocy, and the general quality of folks in the Lege, I'd rather take my chances without that law. With my luck, they'd execute people for stupidity and then hand over the switch to the dumbest among us, just like they've done with education in this state. No thanks =P

25 The Left  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:22:27am

Manhattan

26 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:26:34am

re: #24 Lidane

There's just one problem with this-- I don't trust the Texas Legislature to be able to decide what behavior is stupid and what isn't, especially since they only meet every other year as it is.

Given our current governor and his idiocy, and the general quality of folks in the Lege, I'd rather take my chances without that law. With my luck, they'd execute people for stupidity and then hand over the switch to the dumbest among us, just like they've done with education in this state. No thanks =P

OK. Then make it a federal matter, create a Washington agency (DSAD, Department of Stupidity Agency Department), introduce mandatory minimum sentences for various degrees of stupid behavior, enact a "three strikes" law, and watch the stupidity statistics do a reverse hockey stick.

It's worked so well against marijuana, why not give it a try for recidivist morons?

27 The Left  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:31:12am

re: #26 Cato the Elder

C.A.T.O-- Transmission from I.C.E. STOP
S.O.R.O.S. says you are still awake. STOP
Transmission Pending.
Pending...

28 AK-47%  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:32:51am

Of course gay marriage threatens heterosexual marriage and the family.

Marriage is a fragile institution to begin with; 30 percent of them end in divorce, the rest are held together by mutual debt, inertia, fear of change, fear of social stigma, or inability to face the amount of paperwork involved.

The sight of happy gay couples walking down the aisle will certainly heighten the resolve of those frustrated heterosexual marriage partners who are convinced there is a better life outside if they could only summon the nerve to leave their dull, dhopeless situation.

And if we allow gays to serve openly in the military, nobody will dare to bend over to pick up the soap they dropped in the showers and the number of accidents will increase, further diminishing our capacity to deal with terrorism.

/

29 The Left  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:35:33am

re: #28 ralphieboy


And if we allow gays to serve openly in the military, nobody will dare to bend over to pick up the soap they dropped in the showers

And thus, allowing gay people to serve in the military will make our troops FILTHY!1!

/ (not needed I hope)

30 The Left  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:36:29am

C.A.T.O.!!

31 freetoken  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:23:34am

Not sure I like the changed CSS on the pages... Somehow the wider column throws me off.

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:26:37am

re: #23 Cato the Elder

What I'm thinking about right now is how to apply the fundie take on homosexuality to other areas.

The fundies say that it's no sin to be gay, it's only wrong to act that way.

So I propose a new law.

It's no crime to be stupid, but stupid behavior shall be punished to the fullest extent allowed by statute. This is, of course, something for each individual state to decide. In Oregon, acting stupid could result in a fine or community service. In Texas, it could bring you a life sentence.

I think America is not only in need of such a law, but cries out for it daily.

As an Oregonian, I'd also be okay with humorous and lighthearted public shaming.

33 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:50:29am

re: #27 iceweasel

C.A.T.O-- Transmission from I.C.E. STOP
S.O.R.O.S. says you are still awake. STOP
Transmission Pending.
Pending...

Ah the Mouth of Soros...

"As for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone for your embassy is over and death near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Soros, faithless and accursed; still less one of his slaves... Begone!"

/

34 The Left  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:58:21am

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

Hey you!

Play some music for us. :) Please?

35 boredtechindenver  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:00:50am

K, gonna pimp my cousin's bit. and no, I am not related to JT.

36 boredtechindenver  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:24:39am

wow, killed the thread.

37 ryannon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:40:02am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

My grandmother always said she wanted to be reincarnated as a pelican. Now when we see them, they remind us of her.

38 freetoken  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:46:24am
39 ryannon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:48:04am

And for the people who missed it the first time around on another late-night thread, the work of Saul Leiter - active in the 50s and 60s, and who's just being discovered as one of the masters of the New York City school of photographers:

40 ryannon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:54:53am

re: #38 freetoken

I'll hear your Scarlatti and raise you a Bach:

41 ryannon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:58:17am

LAST CALL BEFORE LIGHTS OUT!

42 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 3:48:35am

Iran successfully launched a rocket on Wednesday carrying a mouse, turtle and worms into space for research purposes, the country's defense minister said.

The launch of the Kavoshgar-3, which means Explorer-3 in Farsi, is part an ambitious Iranian space program that has worried Western powers who fear the same technology used to launch satellites and research capsules could also deliver warheads.

Iranian state television broadcast images Wednesday of officials putting a mouse, two turtles and about a dozen creatures that looked like worms inside a capsule in the rocket before it blast off.

Defense Minister Gen. Ahmad Vahidi, who announced the launch, did not elaborate on the rocket or its research purposes, and it was not immediately clear whether the rocket was being put into orbit or not.

SNIP

43 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 3:56:02am

The long legal battle of an al-Qaida-trained terrorist convicted in an attempted bombing on the millennium has taken another turn after an appeals court threw out his sentence and removed the trial judge from the case.

The 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals on Tuesday said Ahmed Ressam's 22-year prison sentence is too lenient. Border agents in Washington state arrested the Algerian national in 1999 after he entered the United States from Canada on a ferry with a car packed with explosives. He was convicted of plotting to bomb Los Angeles International Airport.

The appeals court also said Tuesday that it's taking the rare step of assigning the case to another trial judge because it doubts U.S. District Judge John Coughenour's impartiality in the matter.

Coughenour presided over the case for a decade. Twice, over the objections of prosecutors, he sentenced the "millennium bomber" to 22 years in prison.


SNIP

44 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 3:57:28am

re: #42 MandyManners

a mouse, two turtles and about a dozen creatures that looked like worms inside a capsule in the rocket before it blast off.


How did they get the Iranian leaders to get into the space capsule!?!?
/

45 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:03:01am

re: #44 sattv4u2

a mouse, two turtles and about a dozen creatures that looked like worms inside a capsule in the rocket before it blast off.


How did they get the Iranian leaders to get into the space capsule!?!?
/

Wouldn't one be a chimp?

46 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:15:58am

Waaahhh.

Dubai warned Israeli intelligence as well as Hamas of working "behind its back" on Wednesday, in the wake of the assassination of Hamas strongman Mahmoud al-Mabhouh last month.

Dubai police chief Dahi Halfan warned international intelligence agencies from working "behind our back," saying anyone who did so "should be wary of his own back.

Halfan added that that threat was also applicable "to any intelligence organization around the world, whether Mossad, Hamas or any other agency."

SNIP

47 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:19:11am

At last, a pelican! This blog is finally showing some class.

48 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:25:43am

Three U.S. soldiers traveling with Pakistan security force members were killed Wednesday and one wounded in a roadside bombing in northwest Pakistan that also injured dozens of schoolgirls, officials said.

The soldiers were in the region as part of a small, little-publicized U.S. mission to train members of the paramilitary Frontier Corps to better fight al-Qaida and Taliban militants, Pakistan's army said.

The U.S. Embassy declined to comment. If the deaths are confirmed by American authorities, they would represent a major victory for militants close to the Afghan border who have been hit hard in recent months by a surge in U.S. missile strikes and a major Pakistani army offensive.

SNIP

49 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:29:18am

John Demjanjuk's trial in Germany was postponed Wednesday after doctors reported that the 89-year-old defendant was experiencing medical problems.

Presiding Judge Ralph Alt said the doctors at the prison hospital where Demjanjuk is being held reported he was suffering from dangerously low hemoglobin levels and needed treatment.

However, doctors thought the proceedings would be able to resume Thursday as scheduled, Alt said.

The retired U.S. autoworker is being tried on accusations he was the accessory to the murders of 27,900 people while allegedly serving as a guard at the Sobibor death camp. The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk rejects the charges, saying he was never a guard at any Nazi camp.

Demjanjuk suffers from several medical problems but has been declared fit to face trial, so long as court sessions are limited to two 90-minute sessions per day.

Alt rejected motions from the defense for the trial to be ended, which argued, among other things, that Demjanjuk was no longer fit for the proceedings.

SNIP

50 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:49:35am

The International Criminal Court was wrong when it decided that Sudan's leader can't be charged with genocide in Darfur, appeals judges said Wednesday — an unprecedented ruling that could lead to President Omar al-Bashir's indictment with humanity's worst crime.

The appeals ruling also put other leaders around the world on notice that the court will not balk at charging them with genocide if they persecute their own people.

The standard of proof the court used last year to dismiss three counts of genocide against al-Bashir "was higher and more demanding than what is required" in its statutes, appellate judge Erkki Kourula of Finland said Wednesday.

Activists welcomed the groundbreaking decision, which helps define just how much evidence prosecutors need before judges at the world's first permanent war crimes tribunal will issue an indictment.

SNIP

The five-judge appeals chamber said the International Criminal Court wrongly concluded in March that there was insufficient evidence to charge al-Bashir with three counts of genocide for allegedly attempting to wipe out entire ethnic groups in the war-ravaged province of Darfur.

Instead, the court charged him with seven counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity for allegedly orchestrating a campaign of murder, torture, rape and forced expulsions in Darfur.

SNIP

51 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:57:12am

China on Wednesday again urged President Barack Obama not to hold a planned meeting with Dalai Lama, saying it would further hurt already strained bilateral relations.

It was the second successive day that China has spoken out against the meeting, and comes after Beijing said ties had been harmed by a U.S. announcement last week that it would sell arms to Taiwan.

''China resolutely opposes the visit by the Dalai Lama to the United States, and resolutely opposes the U.S. leader having contact with the Dalai Lama in any name or any form,'' Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said Wednesday.

SNIP

52 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:11:44am

Another beautiful animal picture. This one is almost a as wonderful as that koala mother and her joey.

53 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:13:28am

A bomb planted on a parked motorcycle ripped through a crowd of Shiite pilgrims Wednesday, killing at least 20 people and wounding more than 100 just days after authorities promised tighter security to combat a string of attacks on the huge religious procession, officials said.

The blast on the outskirts of the holy city of Karbala was the second major scene of bloodshed this week as hundreds of thousands of pilgrims make their way to an important annual Shiite religious observance. It raised fears of a spike in attacks by suspected Sunni insurgents when the pilgrimage culminates Friday.

The bomb exploded at about 11 a.m. in an area known as Ibrahimia near the east entrance — one of three — into Karbala, about 50 miles (80 kilometers) south of Baghdad, said a police official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to brief media.

Witnesses described widespread panic as people tried to carry the dead and wounded through a thick crowd of pilgrims packed shoulder to shoulder. Some were injured as people tried to run from the blast site, said Kareem Madhi, a pilgrim from nearby Hillah.

"I saw a fireball and then black smoke raising," he said. "The security measures are unable to protect these huge numbers of pilgrims."

SNIP

54 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:14:48am

Limbaugh is an asshole. I caught a clip of him on Fox as he said he liked the women's movement, especially when he's walking behind it.

55 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:23:22am

Good morning.

56 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:23:40am

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

Ah the Mouth of Soros...

"As for your terms, we reject them utterly. Get you gone for your embassy is over and death near to you. We did not come here to waste words in treating with Soros, faithless and accursed; still less one of his slaves... Begone!"

/

That was in the book. In the movie, he just takes out his sword and whips off the Mouth's head.

57 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:24:11am

re: #54 MandyManners

Limbaugh is an asshole. I caught a clip of him on Fox as he said he liked the women's movement, especially when he's walking behind it.

He, like Ann Coulter, has always had a bit of a flair for the dramatically aggravating.

58 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:24:41am

re: #52 PhillyPretzel

Another beautiful animal picture. This one is almost a as wonderful as that koala mother and her joey.

But not as cute.

59 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:28:08am

Yesterday I bought a 42" TV for $499.

/but I won't get it in time to watch the Super Bowl

60 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:28:44am

Morning!

61 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:29:27am

re: #60 srb1976

Morning!

Hey new avatar picture! Where's the forehead sticker? :)

62 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:31:41am

re: #61 Mad Al-Jaffee

Hey new avatar picture! Where's the forehead sticker? :)

This one wasn't her birthday.....family pictures, just last week = )

63 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:32:45am

re: #62 srb1976

This one wasn't her birthday...family pictures, just last week = )

You can always take a sticker from a banana and put it there for a picture. I have a picture of my dog like that on my fridge.

64 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:35:21am

re: #63 Mad Al-Jaffee

sounds cute! Both kids are actually a little sticker crazy....we opened a sheet for the Little Man last week and decorated his sister fromhead to toe with them....funny stuff!

65 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:35:59am

The family husky, Nikita, killed her first coon this morning and we are taking her to the vet.
She will be excited about the ride, the destination, not so much.
Please wish good luck on the outcome!

66 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:37:01am

re: #64 srb1976

sounds cute! Both kids are actually a little sticker crazy...we opened a sheet for the Little Man last week and decorated his sister fromhead to toe with them...funny stuff!

I hope you took pictures of that!

67 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:38:04am

re: #63 Mad Al-Jaffee

You can always take a sticker from a banana and put it there for a picture. I have a picture of my dog like that on my fridge.

When my daughter was very young and we would go to the grocery store, I'd get to the check-out line and she would have stickers all over her face from fruits and vegetables - she'd peel 'em off and stick 'em on her face. LOL.

Good morning, LGF!

68 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:39:15am

re: #65 Taqyia2Me

Good luck. Are you worried about Rabies exposure?

69 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:41:05am

re: #66 Mad Al-Jaffee

I hope you took pictures of that!

Of course! That's right up there with the mandatory spaghetti face picture and the naked in the tub picture.....the ones you're required to have before the kid turns 3 or so....it's in the rules = )

70 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:43:06am

re: #44 sattv4u2

Practice shot. For the upcoming (and first) Kosher War Iran and Israel are going to bombard each other with pork products - attempting to desecrate each other's land.

/(I think)

71 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:44:21am

Wheee! Shoveling snow is fun!
...not.
Morning.
:)

72 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:44:56am

re: #68 Mad Al-Jaffee

Good luck. Are you worried about Rabies exposure?

Yes, we are worried a bit but her vaccinations are current. Plus, we have the raccoon carcass.

73 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:48:10am

Good Morning Lizards! Dusting of snow overnight in Philly, so many here are complaining about the complication to the morning commute. (I walk to work, so am therefore affected to a much lesser degree.)

Lemon-Poppy Seed "Oops, you failed the drug test" Sugar Cookies for the co-workers at the 9am group meeting. Another attempt to winnow the herd with my home baking. (And with the recently announced sale, this might be removing competition... bwahahaha) ;)

74 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:49:27am

Heh, just starting the long slow process of getting the kids up and ready for daycare.....my children are NOT morning people....

75 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:50:12am

re: #72 Taqyia2Me

I'm sure she'll be all right, but it's good to check.

76 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 5:55:52am

re: #75 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'm sure she'll be all right, but it's good to check.

Thanks for the well wishes!
Her ear looks to be the area of prime concern but we'll let the vet determine what, if anything needs to be done.
When a husky yells, it'll wake up the neighborhood!

77 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:06:24am

Sure is quiet here today. Too quiet....

78 srb1976  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:06:48am

re: #76 Taqyia2Me

Thanks for the well wishes!
Her ear looks to be the area of prime concern but we'll let the vet determine what, if anything needs to be done.
When a husky yells, it'll wake up the neighborhood!

I'm sure she will be fine, but I know that sound when they yelp (esp. in pain) can be very distressing.....Good Luck

79 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:06:54am

re: #76 Taqyia2Me

Ugh. Raccoons are serious business. I remember when we had an infestation of them at my mom and dad's old house, we took to trapping and, er, "eliminating" them because they were so wily and so dangerous.

80 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:14:43am

Quiet day in lizardland, it seems. I'm going to leave the troll barbecue heated and ready, just in case.

81 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:16:19am

re: #80 thedopefishlives

Quiet day in lizardland, it seems. I'm going to leave the troll barbecue heated and ready, just in case.

Anyone thrown on the grill of late?

82 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:18:11am

re: #81 Ericus58

Anyone thrown on the grill of late?

There were a few last week. Charles had left off with a thread about global warming, so all the trolls came crawling in early in the morning to try to sneak in their parting shots, only to get roasted.

83 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:20:34am

re: #57 thedopefishlives

He, like Ann Coulter, has always had a bit of a flair for the dramatically aggravating.

I don't know about Coulter but, Limbaugh believes his hyperbole.

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:22:27am

What up, kiddies?

85 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:23:20am

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What up, kiddies?

Kiddies or kittehs?

86 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:23:21am

re: #83 MandyManners

I don't know about Coulter but, Limbaugh believes his hyperbole.

Of course he does, but, like Coulter, he says it to be deliberately inflammatory. The fact that he actually means what he says on top of that just makes him doubly idiotic.

87 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:23:23am

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What up, kiddies?

Opposite of down.

88 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:24:31am

re: #86 thedopefishlives

Of course he does, but, like Coulter, he says it to be deliberately inflammatory. The fact that he actually means what he says on top of that just makes him doubly idiotic.

He hates feminism yet says he supports the women's movement especially when he's walking behind it. Pig.

89 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:24:59am

re: #83 MandyManners

he lives to poke ,prod and irritate those he considers his enimies...he thinks he's clever,but,it really just makes him look childish.
he'll say something stupid,then claim he's being persecuted when called on it.
so sad to see the "rugged individualist"(heh heh)whine like a liberal.

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:25:27am

"Obama Girl" was on Hannity last night?

Why is this news?

91 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:27:22am

rush is one of those boobs who seem to long for some past golden age that never existed.

92 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:28:01am

re: #88 MandyManners

He hates feminism yet says he supports the women's movement especially when he's walking behind it. Pig.

Not a joke you care to hear from a thrice-divorced guy within hailing distance of 60.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:30:27am

re: #91 Boondock St. Bender

rush is one of those boobs who seem to long for some past golden age that never existed.

"These are the good old days..."
Carly Simon

94 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:31:40am

guess he has to keep attention on himself...especially with that hannity character nipping at his heels.(as the radio standard bearer of the right wing)

95 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:31:49am

A feminist in The Washington Post defends a pro-lifer against NOW:

Tebow's 30-second ad hasn't even run yet, but it already has provoked "The National Organization for Women Who Only Think Like Us" to reveal something important about themselves: They aren't actually "pro-choice" so much as they are pro-abortion. Pam Tebow has a genuine pro-choice story to tell. She got pregnant in 1987, post-Roe v. Wade, and while on a Christian mission in the Philippines, she contracted a tropical ailment. Doctors advised her the pregnancy could be dangerous, but she exercised her freedom of choice and now, 20-some years later, the outcome of that choice is her beauteous Heisman Trophy winner son, a chaste, proselytizing evangelical.

Pam Tebow and her son feel good enough about that choice to want to tell people about it. Only, NOW says they shouldn't be allowed to. Apparently NOW feels this commercial is an inappropriate message for America to see for 30 seconds, but women in bikinis selling beer is the right one. I would like to meet the genius at NOW who made that decision. On second thought, no, I wouldn't.

96 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:31:50am

re: #88 MandyManners

He hates feminism yet says he supports the women's movement especially when he's walking behind it. Pig.

Rush was at the top of his game during the Clinton days, when there was abundant material for him to make legitimate fun of without going off the rails completely. He's really turned into a childish git in recent years, which is why I wound up not listening to him anymore. That, and I didn't want to be caught dead listening to him in a generally liberal workplace.

97 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:32:46am

re: #93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

very true.we live better today than any generation of humanity ever has.

98 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:33:03am
99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:34:37am

re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee

1. Oh gosh.
2. How the hell did you find that on the internet? What kind of porn were you searching for?

100 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:34:58am

re: #95 The Sanity Inspector

those are the same feminists who embraced the womanizing clinton.their silence during his scandals was deafening.

101 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:35:22am

re: #67 reine.de.tout

Good morning!

102 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:36:45am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I wasn't searching for it, honest! It's a link I followed from a local blog:

[Link: dcist.com...]

It's in the third comment down. The guy who posted it is kind of a local blog commenter celebrity.

103 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:37:03am

re: #96 thedopefishlives

before the internet,he was one of the few conservative voices (early ninties)but now,yeah he's gotta say stupid nonsense to bring attention to himself.

104 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:37:19am

re: #96 thedopefishlives

I thought that is when Bush lost it. I actually liked him during Bush 41. Then it seemed to be all Hilary Hilary Hilary-Monica Monica Monica. His last great show might have been his attack on the Clinton energy tax proposed right after election.

105 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:37:22am

re: #101 Rightwingconspirator

Good morning!

Hey!
How did your interview go yesterday?
I found the website for annenberg TV news, hoping they would stream their newscast and I could see it live, but they don't . . .

106 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:37:32am

re: #95 The Sanity Inspector

A feminist in The Washington Post defends a pro-lifer against NOW:

Speech for me. None for thee.

107 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:38:26am

re: #96 thedopefishlives

Rush was at the top of his game during the Clinton days, when there was abundant material for him to make legitimate fun of without going off the rails completely. He's really turned into a childish git in recent years, which is why I wound up not listening to him anymore. That, and I didn't want to be caught dead listening to him in a generally liberal workplace.

I had him figured out a long time ago.

108 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:39:57am

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Beats me. It's not like she actually, you know, voted for him. Her 15 minutes of youtube fame are up.

109 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:40:42am

re: #104 Rightwingconspirator

I thought that is when Bush lost it. I actually liked him during Bush 41. Then it seemed to be all Hilary Hilary Hilary-Monica Monica Monica. His last great show might have been his attack on the Clinton energy tax proposed right after election.

Well, I didn't get to listen to him much during Bush's presidency, considering that I'm a child of the Reagan era. He may have been more of a political commentator than an entertainer in those years, but as far as "good clean fun" Clinton was about as good as it got. Needless to say, it's been more and more the case that you can't take the man seriously since then, at least.

110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:41:17am

re: #102 Mad Al-Jaffee

It kind of looks like some fungus got in the corn and a Mexican looked at it and said, "Carajo tengo hambre!"

111 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:43:38am

The IRS is buying SHOTGUNS "for the Criminal Investigation Division".
From the looks of it, these will be used to supplement and/or replace existing equipment. At least they've done their homework and picked a great Remington 870 with upgrades.

Maybe they think with the proposed tax increases, they'll need some "help".

112 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:43:52am

re: #105 reine.de.tout

Hi
Seemed to go fine. I should get an email with a link to the flash file on their site.
It was a tape session. It was fun the young lady is very polished. It will be a 2 minute segment including some retail store chat. So it will be a sound nibble or at best a soundbite. The two things I wanted to get across, well one is boring I said "divide your karat by 24, so 14 divided by 24 is .5833, showing your gold to be 58.3 % pure gold."
I saw her eye glaze, she knows that's a change channel moment.

The other point about who to go to and why to sell seemed to go much better. When I said do not just drop your jewelry in an envelope, in the mail and expect a great check she was nodding. We talked about "gold parties" too.

113 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:44:26am

re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Reminds me of that Scandanavian delicacy (can't remember which country, maybe Sweden) where they take fish and can it and let it rot. They know it's ready to eat when the can starts bulging out from the gases being emitted by the fish.

114 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:46:14am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

lute fisk?...don't forget the secret ingredient...lye....yum yum

115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:46:43am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

re: #114 Boondock St. Bender

OMG!

116 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:46:58am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

Reminds me of that Scandanavian delicacy (can't remember which country, maybe Sweden) where they take fish and can it and let it rot. They know it's ready to eat when the can starts bulging out from the gases being emitted by the fish.

Lutefisk. It's Swedish, I believe. It's somewhat well-known here in Minnesota, which has a heavily Scandinavian population. Me, I've never even SEEN the stuff, but I'm one of the lucky ones.

117 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:47:01am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

Reminds me of that Scandanavian delicacy (can't remember which country, maybe Sweden) where they take fish and can it and let it rot. They know it's ready to eat when the can starts bulging out from the gases being emitted by the fish.

I was just about to eat breakfast...

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:47:33am

re: #114 Boondock St. Bender

No, not lutefisk, that's (I think) dried and cured with lye.

I think it's Surströmming.

[Link: www.weird-food.com...]

119 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:47:56am
120 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:48:39am

re: #118 Mad Al-Jaffee

wow something scarier than lutefisk....amazing.

121 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:49:48am

re: #120 Boondock St. Bender

wow something scarier than lutefisk...amazing.

The mind boggles.

122 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:49:51am

re: #119 laZardo

wow that was considered a clunker???

123 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:50:51am

Donations to colleges are down, considerably.
Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that tuition fees are over the top.

124 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:50:53am

re: #96 thedopefishlives

Funny, Rush is still at the top of their game.

Oh wait. Wrong Rush. /dangfarnit

125 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:51:05am

A remarkable bird is the pelican,
His bill can hold more than his belly can.
He can hold more in his beak
than he can eat in a week.
But I don't know how the hell he can.

(learned that one from my wife on one of our first dates to the beach)

126 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:51:10am

re: #122 Boondock St. Bender

wow that was considered a clunker???

You won't believe what was. In fact that video came from one of the links in that article.

/and THAT is why I have no faith in humanity. D:

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:51:32am

re: #125 darthstar

I'd've married her too.

128 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:52:13am

Representative Mark Steven Kirk, a Republican, and Alexi Giannoulias, the Illinois treasurer and a Democrat, won primary elections for the United States Senate here on Tuesday, setting up the pair for a contest in the fall over the seat once held by President Obama.

Though Illinois has been reliably Democratic in recent years, Republicans hope to see inroads this year, and Mr. Kirk, a five-term congressman with centrist-leaning views, wasted no time in making that clear.

“The people of Illinois have seen the arrogance of a one-party state,” Mr. Kirk said in a victory speech. “We know that one political party cannot hold all the answers, and that one political party should not hold all the power.”

SNIP

129 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:52:32am

re: #125 darthstar

A remarkable bird is the pelican,
His bill can hold more than his belly can.
He can hold more in his beak
than he can eat in a week.
But I don't know how the hell he can.

(learned that one from my wife on one of our first dates to the beach)

Pelican diet

130 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:52:35am

re: #123 Capitalist Tool

Tuition can be kept down with endowments spending on tuition offsets, but if the endowments are losing money (which was likely during the Wall Street collapse), they've got less money on hand - and with less money coming in, the pressure to increase tuition rises.

It's a vicious cycle.

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:52:39am

re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It kind of looks like some fungus got in the corn and a Mexican looked at it and said, "Carajo tengo hambre!"

By the way, since no one asked, the translation is , "Fuck it, I'm hungry."
I called a Mexican friend to get that and everything!

132 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:53:25am

re: #126 laZardo

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

133 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:54:27am

A barrage of missiles from U.S. drone aircraft ripped into an area of northwest Pakistan where the Taliban and al Qaeda dominate, killing at least 10 people hours after the Pakistani Taliban again denied rumors of its leader's demise.

The sheer number of missiles fired in Tuesday's strike—a Pakistani intelligence official and witnesses estimated 16 to 18 were launched—appeared to be the most employed in a single attack since the U.S. first began using drone aircraft to target militants in Pakistan six years ago.

The attack was the latest salvo in what has become a torrent of U.S. missile strikes in and around the North Waziristan tribal area of Pakistan in the weeks since an al Qaeda double agent killed seven agents and contractors of the Central Intelligence Agency in a suicide bombing at a U.S. base in a neighboring region of Afghanistan.

SNIP

134 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:55:06am

re: #132 Mad Al-Jaffee

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

I loved the Bigfoot truck as a kid. I even wanted this one toy set that featured a monster truck that could crush cars that could then be somehow "restored" through one of the set's other features.

/mmm, 90's EXTREAM marketing.

135 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:55:09am

Good morning, folks.

One of the funniest things I've gotten to see in nature is two pelicans flying through the air, circling around, and pathing right into each other with a glorious crash. Both fell into the ocean, but appeared to be unharmed.

I'm sure the pelicans weren't too pleased by it, but I had a hearty laugh!

136 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:56:03am

re: #124 lawhawk

For the words of the profits were written on the studio wall,
Concert hall
And echoes with the sounds of salesmen

137 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:57:11am

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said his government would accept a nuclear fuel-swap agreement overseen by the United Nations, a deal the Obama administration has viewed as central to limiting Tehran's ability to develop atomic weapons.

The Iranian leader's announcement on state television Tuesday, however, was immediately greeted with skepticism by Western diplomats, who have watched Tehran flip-flop on the fuel-swap issue since it was proposed in October.

Senior U.S. officials said Mr. Ahmadinejad hadn't conveyed an agreement to the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency.

"The deal is still on the table," said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley. "We don't exactly know what Ahmadinejad said, but if he's prepared to say yes, that's good news. He should contact the IAEA."

Many U.S. and European diplomats said Mr. Ahmadinejad's comments appeared designed to upend an accelerating international campaign to sanction Iran for its nuclear work. In recent days, the Obama administration has begun circulating to allied countries the names of Iranian entities—including its central bank and businesses controlled by its elite military unit, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps—that Washington wants sanctioned under a new U.N. Security Council resolution, say officials who have seen the list.


SNIP

138 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:57:19am

re: #114 Boondock St. Bender

lute fisk?...don't forget the secret ingredient...lye...yum yum

The real secret ingredient in lutefisk

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:57:45am

re: #136 Mad Al-Jaffee

Prophets?

140 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:57:57am

re: #135 MrSilverDragon

I saw a place in Key West that had "pelican wings" on the menu. It turns out it was just a funny/fancy name for chicken wings. I guess a couple of real pelican wings could be a meal.

141 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:58:52am

The Nigerian man accused of trying to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner on Christmas Day has been providing fresh intelligence in several terrorism investigations, officials have said.

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who had a bomb hidden in his underwear, is said to have been co-operating with investigators since last week.

The Obama administration had been under fire for giving Abdulmutallab the right to remain silent rather than interrogating him as a military prisoner.

In the days following the failed bombing, a pair of FBI agents flew to Nigeria and persuaded Abdulmutallab's family to help them. They brought family members back to the US, according to a senior administration official briefed on the case. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

SNIP

142 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:59:11am

re: #138 Alouette

oh dear god do i dare click the link?...the real secrat ingredient?let me guess....the souls of the damned?

143 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:59:41am

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

I'd be willing to bet it was the math that got to her LOL.

144 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 6:59:47am

re: #134 laZardo

I can't get to YouTube at work, but do a search on "jazzbot xtreme" for a good one.

145 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:01:04am

re: #129 Capitalist Tool

Pelican diet

Live raw pigeon! What happened to "I was just about to eat breakfast"?

146 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:01:20am

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry, I just cut and pasted that from a lyrics sight.

147 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:02:37am

AFK'ing for a bit, gotta take care of some housework.

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:03:20am

re: #140 Mad Al-Jaffee

Man goes into a restaurant that says, "Any food you order, we'll serve it or you win a hundred dollars."

The man orders an 'elephant ear' sandwich.

The cook says, "Dammit! Give him the hundred bucks."
Manager says, "What? We're out of elephant ears?"
Cook says, "No, but we're out of those big buns."

149 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:03:37am

The mysterious death of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai last month has prompted Hamas to launch an internal investigation to determine whether Israel has managed to infiltrate the highest echelons of the Islamist movement, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip revealed on Tuesday.

“The assassination of someone as senior as Mabhouh has rung an alarm bell in Hamas,” the official told The Jerusalem Post. “Only a few people in the Hamas leadership knew about Mabhouh’s secret activities and movements.”

The official said that many Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip and Syria were convinced that the Mossad has infiltrated the movement’s top ranks. “Obviously, the assassination of Mabhouh is a huge security blunder for Hamas, because it shows that the Israeli agents are sitting among our leaders in Damascus.”

SNIP

150 prairiefire  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:04:18am

re: #149 MandyManners

Thanks for all the news, Mandy. You are saving me time.

151 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:04:21am

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They could have put an elephant ear pastry on a bun and served it to him.

152 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:05:31am

re: #130 lawhawk

Tuition can be kept down with endowments spending on tuition offsets, but if the endowments are losing money (which was likely during the Wall Street collapse), they've got less money on hand - and with less money coming in, the pressure to increase tuition rises.

It's a vicious cycle.

All true. However, tuition "bracket creep" is pricing out more whole swaths of "middle class" families and causing higher ed to be available to fewer of our people.
It's an old saw that anyone who wants to, can go to college, with the myriad of available student aid packages, but more are choosing not to indenture themselves at the level that is now required to repay student loans. That may change if the gov't forgives student debts, as recently proposed. Once that door opens, it will be hard to close.

153 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:05:47am

re: #149 MandyManners

oohhh sounds like a good old fashioned witch hunt is about to start...now if the right intelligence agencies can plant the right kind of evidence...the possabilities are endless...bwa ha ha

154 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:06:24am

re: #151 Mad Al-Jaffee

They could have put an elephant ear pastry on a bun and served it to him.

They were out of buns. Pay attention or you get served a bear claw!

155 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:06:26am

Russian officials say a top regional al-Qaida figure was one of two gunmen killed by police in the volatile Caucasus region of Dagestan.

The two men were killed Tuesday night after they opened fire on officers who had stopped their car, police said.

On Wednesday, the regional office of the Federal Security Service identified one of those killed Mokhmad Mokhamad Shakhban of Egypt and said he was a founder of al-Qaida's local network, Russian news agencies reported.

SNIP

156 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:06:28am

re: #149 MandyManners

Even if it isn't true (and no one but the Israelis know for sure) - it's good to get in the heads of these nihilistic mass murdering jihadis that they have to look over their shoulder and trust no one - not even their fellow jihadis because they might be working for the Mossad. Let Hamas think that they've been infiltrated - and have to sort things out (preferably by killing each other rather than killing Israelis or innocent Palestinians).

157 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:07:16am

re: #145 Silvergirl

Live raw pigeon! What happened to "I was just about to eat breakfast"?

Some opportunities lost are gone for good...

158 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:07:33am

re: #150 prairiefire

Thanks for all the news, Mandy. You are saving me time.

You're welcome.

159 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:07:50am

re: #152 Capitalist Tool

actually with todays job climate alot of kids would be better off in a trade,or technical field.

160 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:08:06am

re: #153 Boondock St. Bender

oohhh sounds like a good old fashioned witch hunt is about to start...now if the right intelligence agencies can plant the right kind of evidence...the possabilities are endless...bwa ha ha

The Lebanese army has exposed another spy ring working on Israel’s behalf, according to a report in the Al-Anbaa newspaper Wednesday. In the report, based on Lebanese security sources, the spy network was discovered about two weeks ago and at its head was a colonel in the Lebanese army, who was arrested.

161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:08:08am

re: #146 Mad Al-Jaffee

Oh, I was just looking for a reason to post some Queen.

Gotta run!

162 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:08:26am

re: #154 Silvergirl

They were out of buns. Pay attention or you get served a bear claw!

I know, but an elephant ear pastry is quite a bit smaller than a real elephant ear. They were out of BIG buns. :)

163 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:09:08am

re: #156 lawhawk

Even if it isn't true (and no one but the Israelis know for sure) - it's good to get in the heads of these nihilistic mass murdering jihadis that they have to look over their shoulder and trust no one - not even their fellow jihadis because they might be working for the Mossad. Let Hamas think that they've been infiltrated - and have to sort things out (preferably by killing each other rather than killing Israelis or innocent Palestinians).

Ozzie's Paranoid had been playing in my head.

164 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:09:22am

re: #157 Capitalist Tool

Some opportunities lost are gone for good...

Understood. Now that I've missed it, I should post some stomach turning photo. Spread the wealth.

165 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:09:36am

re: #160 MandyManners

mandy you are doing a yeomans job today! kudos!

166 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:09:36am

re: #150 prairiefire

Thanks for all the news, Mandy. You are saving me time.

She has a whole lot better news service in her bookmarks than I do, that's one of the benefits of browsing here.

167 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:10:07am

re: #159 Boondock St. Bender

actually with todays job climate alot of kids would be better off in a trade,or technical field.

That's always been true.

168 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:10:50am

re: #164 Silvergirl

Understood. Now that I've missed it, I should post some stomach turning photo. Spread the wealth.

I'm done...
lol

169 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:10:52am

re: #163 MandyManners

Ozzie's Paranoid had been playing in my head.

Splodeydope infighting is always a good thing. Let them vent their frustrations on each other while we sit back and have a good laugh.

170 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:11:39am

re: #165 Boondock St. Bender

Thank you.

171 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:11:47am

re: #169 thedopefishlives

Splodeydope infighting is always a good thing. Let them vent their frustrations on each other while we sit back and have a good laugh.

what the hell do you mean by that

172 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:13:40am

re: #169 thedopefishlives

Splodeydope infighting is always a good thing. Let them vent their frustrations on each other while we sit back and have a good laugh.

I posted a story way above from Haaretz about Dubai's intelligence agency telling spies to stay out. (That's where the Hamas military leader was rubbed out.)

173 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:13:42am

re: #167 Capitalist Tool

I'm teaching my boys now how to wire up circuits.(switches,outlets, fixtures)I want them to have a well rounded knowledge of all things mechanical/electrical.

174 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:14:14am

re: #171 Capitalist Tool

what the hell do you mean by that

Better they continue the in-fighting?

175 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:14:34am

re: #173 Boondock St. Bender

I'm teaching my boys now how to wire up circuits.(switches,outlets, fixtures)I want them to have a well rounded knowledge of all things mechanical/electrical.

That's good. My father did the same with me, as did his father before him. We have a bit of a family history of jacks-of-all-trades, and I intend to continue the tradition. It also saves a lot of money on home repair costs.

176 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:15:41am

re: #172 MandyManners

I posted a story way above from Haaretz about Dubai's intelligence agency telling spies to stay out. (That's where the Hamas military leader was rubbed out.)

Yeah, I saw that. Combined with the story posted just above about the Lebanese getting jumpy about spy networks, and it seems like the whole of the Middle East is getting that paranoid creeping feeling. Could make for some interesting results.

177 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:16:04am

you guys have a good day! gotta get to getting.

178 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:16:26am

re: #176 thedopefishlives

Yeah, I saw that. Combined with the story posted just above about the Lebanese getting jumpy about spy networks, and it seems like the whole of the Middle East is getting that paranoid creeping feeling. Could make for some interesting results.

And, we're putting up those Patriot batteries in four nations.

179 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:18:06am

The Mangalores are coming...

180 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:19:44am

re: #167 Capitalist Tool

re: #173 Boondock St. Bender

re: #175 thedopefishlives

Which brings me back to one of ny pet peaves

graduating grade school back in the 60's you were given the option of going to High School (ostensibley to be prepped for college) OR, if you hade no interest or knew you weren't college material you could go to a Technical High School.

If you did, you still had to take (and pass) regular math and english courses, but instead of having say French or biology, you had plumbing, electronics, auto repair (engine and/ or body). Nowadayes, those tech schools are POST high school

181 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:19:50am

re: #173 Boondock St. Bender

I'm teaching my boys now how to wire up circuits.(switches,outlets, fixtures)I want them to have a well rounded knowledge of all things mechanical/electrical.

If you have daughters, this would be good for them to learn as well.

182 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:19:58am

Here's an audio clip of a bit of Romney's upcoming book, No apology.

183 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:20:18am

re: #178 MandyManners

And, we're putting up those Patriot batteries in four nations.

I've just got to wonder what the Israelis are thinking. Of course, only they know if they have spies that are really in danger or not; but even if they do, I have to think they're at least somewhat amused by the way these guys are going off the deep end about it.

184 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:20:19am

re: #181 reine.de.tout

If you have daughters, this would be good for them to learn as well.

YES!

185 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:21:07am

re: #183 thedopefishlives

I've just got to wonder what the Israelis are thinking. Of course, only they know if they have spies that are really in danger or not; but even if they do, I have to think they're at least somewhat amused by the way these guys are going off the deep end about it.

I'm sure they know exactly what they're doing.

186 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:22:05am

re: #173 Boondock St. Bender

I'm teaching my boys now how to wire up circuits.(switches,outlets, fixtures)I want them to have a well rounded knowledge of all things mechanical/electrical.

Good job! Same here. I've found that my young son who was absolutely helpless at doing anything is now getting more adept at figuring out things mechanical, etc. It's an incremental process for the young, as well as for us. Only thing is, I now seem to be forgetting more than I'm learning...
re: #174 MandyManners

Better they continue the in-fighting?

Did I forget my sarc tag again- lol

187 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:23:05am

Once again I mixed too much regular coffee in with my de-caf and my ears are buzzing.

188 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:24:02am

re: #187 MandyManners

Once again I mixed too much regular coffee in with my de-caf and my ears are buzzing.

Doesn't that also mean that someone's thinking fond thoughts of you?

189 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:24:43am

Posting news articles and buzzing the ears. Caffeine's good for that.

Thanks for the clips.

190 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:24:57am

re: #187 MandyManners

Once again I mixed too much regular coffee in with my de-caf and my ears are buzzing.

Your ears are like bees

They're Beers!

191 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:26:44am
192 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:27:48am

re: #187 MandyManners

Once again I mixed too much regular coffee in with my de-caf and my ears are buzzing.

That first caffeine hit after you've been off of it for a few days is a doozy.

193 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:31:46am

Astronomical image of the day. And it gets a whisky-tango-foxtrot from the experts who've seen it.

194 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:40:00am

re: #193 lawhawk

It's them dadburn Mangalores, I tell ya...

195 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:41:37am

re: #188 Capitalist Tool

Doesn't that also mean that someone's thinking fond thoughts of you?

My cat, maybe.

196 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:41:59am

re: #189 Silvergirl

Posting news articles and buzzing the ears. Caffeine's good for that.

Thanks for the clips.

You're welcome.

197 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:42:16am

re: #193 lawhawk

Astronomical image of the day. And it gets a whisky-tango-foxtrot from the experts who've seen it.

Along with a collective yawn

"will someone gives a grant to study this? NO!! ,, then fuggedaboutit!"

198 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:42:33am

re: #190 sattv4u2

Your ears are like bees

They're Beers!

I'd rather have something from De Beers.

199 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:43:24am

re: #180 sattv4u2

re: #173 Boondock St. Bender

re: #175 thedopefishlives

Which brings me back to one of ny pet peaves

graduating grade school back in the 60's you were given the option of going to High School (ostensibley to be prepped for college) OR, if you hade no interest or knew you weren't college material you could go to a Technical High School.

If you did, you still had to take (and pass) regular math and english courses, but instead of having say French or biology, you had plumbing, electronics, auto repair (engine and/ or body). Nowadayes, those tech schools are POST high school

Community college offers many of those tech programs.

200 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:43:51am

re: #192 thedopefishlives

That first caffeine hit after you've been off of it for a few days is a doozy.

I drink it every other day. Half of my mix is de-caf. The other is half-caf/half-decaf. I'm gonna' hafta' go to 3/4 de-caf.

201 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:44:13am

re: #195 MandyManners

My cat, maybe.

It's just doing that bcuz it wantz ur cheezburger.

202 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:45:03am

re: #193 lawhawk

Astronomical image of the day. And it gets a whisky-tango-foxtrot from the experts who've seen it.

It looks like a cross or a space ship.

203 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:45:40am

re: #199 Alouette

Community college offers many of those tech programs.

As stated ,,, POST High School

I'm talking post grade school

204 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:45:55am

re: #201 laZardo

It's just doing that bcuz it wantz ur cheezburger.

He can have it.

205 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:46:07am

re: #202 MandyManners

It looks like a cross or a space ship.

The Mayan 2012 Missle!

206 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:48:38am

re: #128 MandyManners

Representative Mark Steven Kirk, a Republican, and Alexi Giannoulias, the Illinois treasurer and a Democrat, won primary elections for the United States Senate here on Tuesday, setting up the pair for a contest in the fall over the seat once held by President Obama.

SNIP

I remember Giannoulias from the treasury race...DFalcon can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that daddy owns banks. Can I get a "down with the elitists" wha-wha from my lefties?

hello?

echo?

207 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:49:40am

re: #143 reine.de.tout
Well she was blonde... J/K!
No I think she got it, she just knows the collegiate TV audience. What needs to be done to make that math interesting is a good graphic. At best it's a 120 second skim of the story. No time=no depth

208 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:51:27am

re: #201 laZardo

It's just doing that bcuz it wantz ur cheezburger.

Speaking of cheeseburgers, I'm generally a fan of grilling them on my gas grill. However, my mother-in-law makes the best butter-fried greaseburgers in town. OM NOM NOM. If you've never had such a thing, just take a medium skillet, heat it up, drop a big pat of butter in it, toss on the meat, and add a pat of butter to each burger. It'll melt as it cooks, adding to the butter in the pan as well as soaking into the meat.

209 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:52:14am

re: #208 thedopefishlives

Breakfast is back on!!!

210 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:53:24am

re: #208 thedopefishlives

Speaking of cheeseburgers, I'm generally a fan of grilling them on my gas grill. However, my mother-in-law makes the best butter-fried greaseburgers in town. OM NOM NOM. If you've never had such a thing, just take a medium skillet, heat it up, drop a big pat of butter in it, toss on the meat, and add a pat of butter to each burger. It'll melt as it cooks, adding to the butter in the pan as well as soaking into the meat.

Sounds like 2 years of my life that are definitely worth not getting back. :3

211 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:53:31am

re: #206 Aceofwhat?

I wonder who Blogojevich voted for, and for how much !?!?!

/(well ,,, perhaps)

212 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:54:59am

re: #202 MandyManners

If SpaceJesus is going to stop by he should drop us a note first.

213 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:55:19am

re: #206 Aceofwhat?

I remember Giannoulias from the treasury race...DFalcon can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that daddy owns banks. Can I get a "down with the elitists" wha-wha from my lefties?

hello?

echo?

KORPORASHUNS R EEEBILLL

214 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:55:45am

re: #205 sattv4u2

The Mayan 2012 Missle!

I thought they did calendars.

216 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:57:08am

re: #208 thedopefishlives

Speaking of cheeseburgers, I'm generally a fan of grilling them on my gas grill. However, my mother-in-law makes the best butter-fried greaseburgers in town. OM NOM NOM. If you've never had such a thing, just take a medium skillet, heat it up, drop a big pat of butter in it, toss on the meat, and add a pat of butter to each burger. It'll melt as it cooks, adding to the butter in the pan as well as soaking into the meat.

Dickhead would cook breakfast on weekends before he went to the golf course. To fry bacon, he'd pour at least a half-cup of oil into the pan.

217 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:57:23am

re: #216 MandyManners

Dickhead would cook breakfast on weekends before he went to the golf course. To fry bacon, he'd pour at least a half-cup of oil into the pan.

And, it was GROSS.

218 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:57:51am

re: #212 Rightwingconspirator

Hmm-mm-mm.

219 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:58:49am

re: #216 MandyManners

Dickhead would cook breakfast on weekends before he went to the golf course. To fry bacon, he'd pour at least a half-cup of oil into the pan.

And then pour off 3 cups of grease after.

220 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:58:51am

re: #216 MandyManners

Dickhead would cook breakfast on weekends before he went to the golf course. To fry bacon, he'd pour at least a half-cup of oil into the pan.

UGH. Bacon fries nicely enough on its own. In fact, sometimes I use the leftover grease for cooking my greaseburgers, instead of butter. It adds more flavor, at the cost of another 2 years off my lifespan.

221 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:58:58am

re: #211 sattv4u2

I wonder who Blogojevich voted for, and for how much !?!?!

/(well ,,, perhaps)

Heh. Well, he is blacker than Barack Obama, so...

222 laZardo  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:59:09am

re: #206 Aceofwhat?

I remember Giannoulias from the treasury race...DFalcon can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that daddy owns banks. Can I get a "down with the elitists" wha-wha from my lefties?

hello?

echo?

His brother is the CFO of that bank as far as my Googling/Wiki skills can dig up. He listed a 3-bedroom for damn near $2 million last July.

223 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:59:26am

re: #213 MandyManners

It's funny every time. every. single. time.

224 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 7:59:39am

re: #215 Aceofwhat?

I hope he's not driving it.

225 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:00:24am

re: #219 Silvergirl

And then pour off 3 cups of grease after.

Yeah, guess who got to clean up after dickhead.

227 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:00:46am

re: #216 MandyManners

Dickhead would cook breakfast on weekends before he went to the golf course. To fry bacon, he'd pour at least a half-cup of oil into the pan.

Bacon cooks perfectly well in its own grease. Some things are ok just the way they are...

228 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:01:01am

re: #220 thedopefishlives

UGH. Bacon fries nicely enough on its own. In fact, sometimes I use the leftover grease for cooking my greaseburgers, instead of butter. It adds more flavor, at the cost of another 2 years off my lifespan.

PRECISELY.

229 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:01:50am

re: #223 Aceofwhat?

It's funny every time. every. single. time.

*curtsey*

230 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:02:18am

re: #226 laZardo

If I didn't have some kind of seething hatred for smug Prius-driving, Apple iP___-using-and-docking hipsters, I'd actually be concerned.

Honestly - the Prius is a great little car, imho. It's the smuggy smuggerton attitude which ruins it...

231 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:02:20am

re: #228 MandyManners

PRECISELY.

For that matter, I rarely use oil for frying much of anything. If I do, I mostly use olive oil when cooking chicken or fish Mediterranean-style. I don't deep-fry, ever.

232 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:03:02am

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

Bacon cooks perfectly well in its own grease. Some things are ok just the way they are...

For someone as smart as he was, he did some pretty stupid things.

233 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:03:31am

re: #225 MandyManners

Yeah, guess who got to clean up after dickhead.

I came home after a week in California to find that Zedushka did not wash a dish while I was gone.

At least he had the good sense to pile everything in the dishwasher, not so much to load the dishwasher but to hide the sight so I wouldn't freak out. I had to reload the dishwasher because he put pots and bowls in upright, etc.

While I was away, he went to Target and bought himself a couple of packs of new socks and boxers.

234 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:03:45am

Hmm. Interesting sitting here in the office watching a snow squall line coming across the city from the west. Looks like an encroching light white mist. Buildings further away get fuzzier and fuzzier and then sort of gray out. Stuff closer in is still getting direct sunlight and thus look much "crisper" in definition by contrast.

235 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:03:53am

re: #231 thedopefishlives

For that matter, I rarely use oil for frying much of anything. If I do, I mostly use olive oil when cooking chicken or fish Mediterranean-style. I don't deep-fry, ever.

I have to have fried chicken every now and then.

236 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:04:32am

re: #234 oaktree

Grab your phone or camera and take a snap. I hate it when I miss shots like that!!

237 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:04:34am

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

Bacon cooks perfectly well in its own grease. Some things are ok just the way they are...

Yeah, that's how I cook it.

238 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:04:41am

re: #233 Alouette

I came home after a week in California to find that Zedushka did not wash a dish while I was gone.

At least he had the good sense to pile everything in the dishwasher, not so much to load the dishwasher but to hide the sight so I wouldn't freak out. I had to reload the dishwasher because he put pots and bowls in upright, etc.

While I was away, he went to Target and bought himself a couple of packs of new socks and boxers.

'Cause he didn't want to do laundry?

239 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:04:53am

re: #235 MandyManners

I have to have fried chicken every now and then.

There is a Colonel of truth in that comment.

240 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:05:26am

re: #235 MandyManners

I have to have fried chicken every now and then.

I go out for my fried chicken when I crave it. The local supermarket has fabulous fried chicken; or, if I have business uptown, stop by the local KFC.

241 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:05:27am

re: #233 Alouette

I came home after a week in California to find that Zedushka did not wash a dish while I was gone.

At least he had the good sense to pile everything in the dishwasher, not so much to load the dishwasher but to hide the sight so I wouldn't freak out. I had to reload the dishwasher because he put pots and bowls in upright, etc.

While I was away, he went to Target and bought himself a couple of packs of new socks and boxers.

Wait...he put things in the dishwasher but not racked correctly?

242 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:05:28am

re: #233 Alouette

I came home after a week in California to find that Zedushka did not wash a dish while I was gone.

At least he had the good sense to pile everything in the dishwasher, not so much to load the dishwasher but to hide the sight so I wouldn't freak out. I had to reload the dishwasher because he put pots and bowls in upright, etc.

While I was away, he went to Target and bought himself a couple of packs of new socks and boxers.

He probably used both sides of the plates.

243 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:06:16am

re: #235 MandyManners

We switched to grape seed oil for pan frying. Guilt free! Works hotter, almost no cholesterol. Buttery subtle flavor.

244 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:07:54am

re: #234 oaktree

Hmm. Interesting sitting here in the office watching a snow squall line coming across the city from the west. Looks like an encroching light white mist. Buildings further away get fuzzier and fuzzier and then sort of gray out. Stuff closer in is still getting direct sunlight and thus look much "crisper" in definition by contrast.

Brrrr.

245 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:08:09am

re: #239 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There is a Colonel of truth in that comment.

Pop, Eye want some fried chicken right now.

246 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:09:14am

re: #239 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There is a Colonel of truth in that comment.

Clucking-A!

247 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:09:26am

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

We switched to grape seed oil for pan frying. Guilt free! Works hotter, almost no cholesterol. Buttery subtle flavor.

Interesting. I will save your link for more leisurely perusal.

Must hit the road soon. At least it's a good hair day--every so often all the stars align to make it so.

248 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:09:42am

re: #240 thedopefishlives

I go out for my fried chicken when I crave it. The local supermarket has fabulous fried chicken; or, if I have business uptown, stop by the local KFC.

KFC is waaay to greasy for me.

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:09:53am

re: #245 Mad Al-Jaffee

Pop, Eye want some fried chicken right now.

:D

I was wondering if anyone was keeping a breast of the commentary.

(Tossing in a pun is a lot like tossing in a dead, over-ripe, skunk.)

250 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:10:46am

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

We switched to grape seed oil for pan frying. Guilt free! Works hotter, almost no cholesterol. Buttery subtle flavor.

I've not heard of that before now.

251 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:10:51am

re: #236 Rightwingconspirator

The storm cloud I most wanted a picture of was while working as a spotter for a cross-country meet in high school. (Basically playing crossing guard for a spot where the runners crossed a round.)

Got to watch a rain cloud come roaring in at 25-30 mph. A gray roiling mass. The effect looked a bit like the clouds generated by the aliens in _Close Encounters of the Third Kind_. One of those clouds that make the rain go from light drizzle directly to horizontal downpour in seconds.

252 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:11:00am

re: #248 MandyManners

KFC is waaay to greasy for me.

I'm all about Popeye's. There's one a few minutes from home. I only eat there maybe 2-3 times a year. Great chicken and sides.

253 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:11:25am

re: #248 MandyManners

KFC is waaay to greasy for me.

That's why I like the stuff from the supermarket. The grease factor is a lot lower, and it's still absolutely scrumptious. I also don't really have much in the way of deep-frying equipment yet, so I couldn't do my own chicken even if I wanted to. My mother-in-law does on occasion, though.

254 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:11:55am

re: #252 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'm more addicted to the biscuits than I am to the chicken...

255 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:11:59am

re: #245 Mad Al-Jaffee

Pop, Eye want some fried chicken right now.

It's right across the road.

256 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:12:06am

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

:D

I was wondering if anyone was keeping a breast of the commentary.

(Tossing in a pun is a lot like tossing in a dead, over-ripe, skunk.)

I'll be your wingman on this one.

257 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:12:54am

re: #252 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'm all about Popeye's. There's one a few minutes from home. I only eat there maybe 2-3 times a year. Great chicken and sides.

I eat it more often than that.

258 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:13:10am

re: #253 thedopefishlives

That's why I like the stuff from the supermarket. The grease factor is a lot lower, and it's still absolutely scrumptious. I also don't really have much in the way of deep-frying equipment yet, so I couldn't do my own chicken even if I wanted to. My mother-in-law does on occasion, though.

If you have a cast iron skillet you can do it at home. I know how, but it's much less work to go out for it.

259 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:13:13am

re: #238 MandyManners

'Cause he didn't want to do laundry?

He doesn't even know where the laundry room is. Years ago, my washing machine broke down and he replaced the belt. But he never learned how to operate the washing machine. He claims he is color blind and can't sort the clothes properly.

I taught all my kids how to wash their own damn clothes. Also, as each little one was growing up, I taught them how to cook their own favorite food.

260 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:13:21am
261 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:13:31am

re: #255 MandyManners

It's right across the road.

I'm a bit too chicken to claim that the egging came first in that exchange.

262 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:13:47am

re: #253 thedopefishlives

That's why I like the stuff from the supermarket. The grease factor is a lot lower, and it's still absolutely scrumptious. I also don't really have much in the way of deep-frying equipment yet, so I couldn't do my own chicken even if I wanted to. My mother-in-law does on occasion, though.

I use my iron skillet. Well, I don't suppose that's true deep-fry but, it works out just fine.

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:14:02am

re: #256 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'll be your wingman on this one.

A nugget of wisdom there, too.

264 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:14:46am

re: #259 Alouette

He doesn't even know where the laundry room is. Years ago, my washing machine broke down and he replaced the belt. But he never learned how to operate the washing machine. He claims he is color blind and can't sort the clothes properly.

I taught all my kids how to wash their own damn clothes. Also, as each little one was growing up, I taught them how to cook their own favorite food.

Bless your heart! I bet your daughter's in-law love you to pieces!

265 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:15:18am

re: #262 MandyManners

I use my iron skillet. Well, I don't suppose that's true deep-fry but, it works out just fine.

Plus, the last time I tried frying something, it didn't turn out so well. I wanted to make fried catfish filets for the Mrs. Fish - a fish country delicacy that she'd never tried before. The frying was fine, but I couldn't get the breading to work for the world. It still wound up tasting okay, at least.

266 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:15:23am

re: #261 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm a bit too chicken to claim that the egging came first in that exchange.

Not me. I'm hard-bolied.

267 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:16:04am

re: #266 MandyManners

Not me. I'm hard-bolied.

That's something one doesn't get over easily.

268 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:16:30am

re: #263 pre-Boomer Marine brat

A nugget of wisdom there, too.

I'd do a rimshot if I had a drumstick.

269 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:16:35am

re: #264 MandyManners

Bless your heart! I bet your daughter's in-law love you to pieces!

They worship me.

270 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:16:51am

re: #259 Alouette

He doesn't even know where the laundry room is. Years ago, my washing machine broke down and he replaced the belt. But he never learned how to operate the washing machine. He claims he is color blind and can't sort the clothes properly.

I taught all my kids how to wash their own damn clothes. Also, as each little one was growing up, I taught them how to cook their own favorite food.

Sometimes when alone i don't feel like doing dishes...so i eat with paper plates! Two birds, one stone...

271 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:17:02am

re: #265 thedopefishlives

Plus, the last time I tried frying something, it didn't turn out so well. I wanted to make fried catfish filets for the Mrs. Fish - a fish country delicacy that she'd never tried before. The frying was fine, but I couldn't get the breading to work for the world. It still wound up tasting okay, at least.

Oh, great. Now I'm gonna' think about cat fish, hush puppies, navy beans, slaw, a chunk of Vidalia onion and coconut cream pie for the rest of the day.

272 wiffersnapper  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:17:06am

Pie pellicane Jesu domine :p

273 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:17:45am

re: #267 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's something one doesn't get over easily.

Omelet the puns go.

274 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:17:57am

re: #268 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'd do a rimshot if I had a drumstick.

I bow to your munificence and say, thigh will be done.

/perhaps not one of my better ones

275 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:18:22am

re: #271 MandyManners

Oh, great. Now I'm gonna' think about cat fish, hush puppies, navy beans, slaw, a chunk of Vidalia onion and coconut cream pie for the rest of the day.

Wow. Among other things, that's a recipe for some slammin' breath...

276 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:18:24am

re: #269 Alouette

They worship me.

Smart women.

277 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:19:05am

re: #275 Aceofwhat?

Wow. Among other things, that's a recipe for some slammin' breath...

Okay by me. I don't date.

278 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:19:23am

re: #273 MandyManners

Omelet the puns go.

Now that I've hijacked the thread, I will turn Catholic and give it a Benedict shun.

279 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:19:46am

re: #274 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I bow to your munificence and say, thigh will be done.

/perhaps not one of my better ones

There are some pretty interesting lizards gizards on this blog.

280 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:20:04am

re: #271 MandyManners

I'll take mine with some butter-garlic mashed potatoes, a heap of corn pudding, some homemade baked macaroni and cheese, a couple of deviled eggs, and a slice of vinegar pie. Yeah, I'm Irish, whatcha gonna do about it?

281 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:21:16am

re: #269 Alouette

They worship me.

She says this in deep humility. :-)

It's grand to be loved and worshipped!

282 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:21:25am

re: #277 MandyManners

Okay by me. I don't date.

I was thinking more about entities fleeing to the roof//

283 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:23:13am

re: #278 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Now that I've hijacked the thread, I will turn Catholic and give it a Benedict shun.

For shirr.

284 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:23:28am

Stop posting so I won't feel like I missed everything! Gotta go. Have a most excellent Wednesday.

285 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:23:37am

re: #280 thedopefishlives

I'll take mine with some butter-garlic mashed potatoes, a heap of corn pudding, some homemade baked macaroni and cheese, a couple of deviled eggs, and a slice of vinegar pie. Yeah, I'm Irish, whatcha gonna do about it?

Vinegar pie?

286 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:24:02am

re: #282 Aceofwhat?

I was thinking more about entities fleeing to the roof//

?

287 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:24:46am

re: #279 Mad Al-Jaffee

There are some pretty interesting lizards gizards on this blog.

Gaack!
I was running neck-and-neck there for awhile, but now I'm beginning to come up dry.

288 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:24:48am

re: #284 Silvergirl

Stop posting so I won't feel like I missed everything! Gotta go. Have a most excellent Wednesday.

Enjoy the hair!

290 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:25:25am

re: #285 MandyManners

Vinegar pie?

Aye. It's exactly what it sounds like. If you want to visualize it, think about a pecan pie, without the pecans. That should give you an idea of the look and feel of the thing. The taste is, well, acquired; I've met a lot of people who don't like it, and only a few who do.

291 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:25:52am

re: #289 Buck

Killed in bed with a pillow... while in Dubai without any security escort... who wants to bet against secret male lover?

I posted an article last week (BBC, I think) that claimed that the cause of death was poison.

Dead is dead.

292 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:26:21am

re: #290 thedopefishlives

Aye. It's exactly what it sounds like. If you want to visualize it, think about a pecan pie, without the pecans. That should give you an idea of the look and feel of the thing. The taste is, well, acquired; I've met a lot of people who don't like it, and only a few who do.

The texture alone would put me off.

293 windsagio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:27:33am

re: #289 Buck

I shouldn't but, I notice that the way to joke about/further vilify someone you don't like is to imply he's gay >>

294 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:27:47am

re: #286 MandyManners

From yesterday, iirc...

He's on the roof again...bbl

295 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:28:30am

re: #292 MandyManners

The texture alone would put me off.

It's a popular dessert in the family, but those who marry in tend to have a great deal of difficulty wrapping their minds around such a construct. The Mrs. Fish is one of the few who will eat the stuff. I knew I married well.

296 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:28:38am

re: #289 Buck

Killed in bed with a pillow... while in Dubai without any security escort... who wants to bet against secret male lover?

Where was Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al Nahyan when it happened?

297 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:28:49am

re: #290 thedopefishlives

Aye. It's exactly what it sounds like. If you want to visualize it, think about a pecan pie, without the pecans. That should give you an idea of the look and feel of the thing. The taste is, well, acquired; I've met a lot of people who don't like it, and only a few who do.

I think that's because it's vinegar pie.

298 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:29:09am

re: #287 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Gaack!
I was running neck-and-neck there for awhile, but now I'm beginning to come up dry.

Thigh don't know what to say.

299 windsagio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:29:17am

re: #297 Aceofwhat?

I almost downdinged you for ewww!

300 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:29:33am

re: #291 MandyManners

I posted an article last week (BBC, I think) that claimed that the cause of death was poison.

Dead is dead.

Zionist Death Ray

301 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:30:09am

re: #299 windsagio

I almost downdinged you for ewww!

He actually eats the stuff! I'm with you on this;)

302 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:30:17am

re: #300 Alouette

Zionist Death Ray

That looks seriously like something that would be found on an actual ZioNazi conspiracy website.

303 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:30:43am

re: #193 lawhawk

Astronomical image of the day. And it gets a whisky-tango-foxtrot from the experts who've seen it.

Here's a much larger version of the Hubble image:
Image: asteroidship-full.jpg

And here's what it looks like after zooming in; fiddling with the luminance, gamma and saturation; doing some noise reduction; and running it through an unsharp mask:
Image: StarWars_X_Wing_Fighter_Flying.jpg

304 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:30:46am

re: #299 windsagio

re: #301 Aceofwhat?

I should submit the recipe to the next Lizard Cookbook and see some heads asplode.

305 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:31:48am

re: #300 Alouette

Zionist Death Ray

Mebst! Will you stop with revealing the secrets of Remulak already.. That was going to be a surprise announcement from the supreme overlord!

No Bagel!

Btw the whole Talit at the Kotel discussion got very interesting.

306 windsagio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:33:57am

random cartoon link

'cuz of cooking.

one of the best cartoons of the 2000s'

307 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:34:12am

re: #305 LudwigVanQuixote

For someone outside those distinctions I saw it as an interesting discussion and display of cultural blind spots and where traditions clash with changing realities.

308 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:34:49am

re: #303 simoom

Hmmm.... Are we sure?

309 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:34:50am

re: #302 thedopefishlives

That looks seriously like something that would be found on an actual ZioNazi conspiracy website.

It's a Photoshop spoof that I did a bunch of years ago. If it shows up on Stormfront or Prisonplanet or some similar site, they are stupid enough to hotlink and then I can pwn them.

310 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:35:38am

re: #309 Alouette

It's a Photoshop spoof that I did a bunch of years ago. If it shows up on Stormfront or Prisonplanet or some similar site, they are stupid enough to hotlink and then I can pwn them.

That is absolutely full of win. Amazing job.

311 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:36:36am

Client just called me in -- and I thought today might be a time to catch my breath. (Yesterday was 10+ hours, with lunch gobbled at my desk.)

Have a great day, everyone!

312 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:36:38am

re: #305 LudwigVanQuixote

Mebst! Will you stop with revealing the secrets of Remulak already.. That was going to be a surprise announcement from the supreme overlord!

No Bagel!

Btw the whole Talit at the Kotel discussion got very interesting.

Here's a nice picture I found this morning.

313 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:37:28am

re: #307 oaktree

For someone outside those distinctions I saw it as an interesting discussion and display of cultural blind spots and where traditions clash with changing realities.

That is sort of the point of an established tradition. It does not change really once it has been set. That is a separate thought from liking it or agreeing with it. It is also not as if Jewish Tradition is static. I don't mean to imply that. However, much like a system of legal precedents, there are ways that the system evolves and rules to how it is done. The rules about what constitutes cross dressing are pretty well established and have been for a very very long time. They are not about to change.

314 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:38:12am

re: #312 Alouette

Here's a nice picture I found this morning.

So it is and I have stood right in that spot. :)

315 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:38:42am

re: #293 windsagio

I shouldn't but, I notice that the way to joke about/further vilify someone you don't like is to imply he's gay >>

No not true at ALL.

If he was openly gay there would be almost no mention from me, however hypocrites should be exposed. I also believe Arafat was gay. Doesn't mean I think only evil bloodsoaked terrorists are gay.

In this case, it might even be Mossad... they are not at all above this sort of mission.

316 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:40:13am

Bleh. Rebiana is just not as good as sucralose in my coffee. Natural ain't always better.

317 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:40:23am

re: #311 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Client just called me in -- and I thought today might be a time to catch my breath. (Yesterday was 10+ hours, with lunch gobbled at my desk.)

Have a great day, everyone!

Hi pBMb!

Bye pBMb!

318 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:40:42am

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Some rules are more equal than others. :)

No surprise there. Some things are easier to be flexible with, or more subject to local conditions and thus more likely to be changed/modified as the group/religion/entity is exposed to them. Or changed in order to purposely subsume existing traditions of the new environment into the set of traditions.

The Christian adaptation of pagan holidays as it spread across Europe serving as a prime example.

319 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:41:33am

re: #294 Aceofwhat?

From yesterday, iirc...

He's on the roof again...bbl

Ahhhh. Monday. But, he likes most of what I cook.

320 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:41:48am

re: #318 oaktree

Very good example there, i agree.

321 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:41:52am

re: #291 MandyManners

I posted an article last week (BBC, I think) that claimed that the cause of death was poison.

Dead is dead.

Actually I got it from you....

[Link: www.theglobeandmail.com...]

Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, 49, a military official of the Islamic Resistance Movement, was found dead in his Dubai hotel room late last month. While the death appeared to be from natural causes, an autopsy revealed Mr. al-Mabhouh was killed, apparently by suffocation with a pillow after receiving electric shocks, perhaps from a taser.

322 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:42:22am

re: #295 thedopefishlives

It's a popular dessert in the family, but those who marry in tend to have a great deal of difficulty wrapping their minds around such a construct. The Mrs. Fish is one of the few who will eat the stuff. I knew I married well.

Compatible palates help.

I knew I should have run when Dickhead told me he hated celery.

323 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:42:28am

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

That is sort of the point of an established tradition. It does not change really once it has been set. That is a separate thought from liking it or agreeing with it. It is also not as if Jewish Tradition is static. I don't mean to imply that. However, much like a system of legal precedents, there are ways that the system evolves and rules to how it is done. The rules about what constitutes cross dressing are pretty well established and have been for a very very long time. They are not about to change.

It is actually not forbidden for a woman to wear talis and tefillin if she wishes to do so, in the privacy of her own home or at a private gathering of women. However, doing so in an ostentatious display at a public place where some hotheads are sure to get pissed off is just attention whoring.

That poor kid who put on tefillin on an airplane and freaked people out, was just clueless. These women know exactly what they are doing. And it is certainly wrong to freak out and feed them the martyr cookies they are addicted to.

324 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:43:08am

re: #300 Alouette

Zionist Death Ray

What about Zionist Hair Rays?

325 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:44:34am

re: #324 MandyManners

What about Zionist Hair Rays?

The Death Ray has intensified and focused the Hair Rays, sort of like a Tesla Beam Hair Ray.

326 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:44:36am

re: #321 Buck

Actually I got it from you...

[Link: www.theglobeandmail.com...]

Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, 49, a military official of the Islamic Resistance Movement, was found dead in his Dubai hotel room late last month. While the death appeared to be from natural causes, an autopsy revealed Mr. al-Mabhouh was killed, apparently by suffocation with a pillow after receiving electric shocks, perhaps from a taser.

I've posted about four or five (six?) articles about the death of the scum.

327 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:44:48am

re: #312 Alouette

Here's a nice picture I found this morning.

No wimmins???

I missed the good discussion :(

My mother is 76, was recently confirmed (decided against Bat Mitzvah at this point), wears a tallit and has been studying Kabbalah with her rabbi for 15 years. So what's wrong with that.

328 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:44:57am

re: #325 Alouette

The Death Ray has intensified and focused the Hair Rays, sort of like a Tesla Beam Hair Ray.

Zounds!

329 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:45:05am

re: #323 Alouette

It is actually not forbidden for a woman to wear talis and tefillin if she wishes to do so, in the privacy of her own home or at a private gathering of women. However, doing so in an ostentatious display at a public place where some hotheads are sure to get pissed off is just attention whoring.

That poor kid who put on tefillin on an airplane and freaked people out, was just clueless. These women know exactly what they are doing. And it is certainly wrong to freak out and feed them the martyr cookies they are addicted to.

Which is pretty much what I said. However not everyone would agree with that. I understand the Chassidim have an answer to this, but, there is the issue about what beracha she would say.

330 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:45:52am

re: #327 marjoriemoon

No wimmins???

I missed the good discussion :(

My mother is 76, was recently confirmed (decided against Bat Mitzvah at this point), wears a tallit and has been studying Kabbalah with her rabbi for 15 years. So what's wrong with that.

Whatever floats your boat.

My dad had a Bar Mitzvah when he was 88.

331 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:45:56am

re: #322 MandyManners

Compatible palates help.

I knew I should have run when Dickhead told me he hated celery.

The Mrs. Fish has been patiently trying to coax me into eating more vegetables. It's about the only difference in our eating habits; I'm not much for veggies, and she loves to eat the green stuff. Otherwise, it's rather amusing when we go out to eat and we try each other's plates and simultaneously tell each other, "I like your food better than I like mine."

332 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:46:29am

re: #327 marjoriemoon

No wimmins???

I missed the good discussion :(

My mother is 76, was recently confirmed (decided against Bat Mitzvah at this point), wears a tallit and has been studying Kabbalah with her rabbi for 15 years. So what's wrong with that.

Well if you want to see the full discussion it is in the thread about hatemail downstairs.

There are quite a few who would argue that a Talit is a man's garment and that for her to publicly wear one would be a violation of cross dressing.

333 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:46:58am

re: #322 MandyManners

Compatible palates help.

I knew I should have run when Dickhead told me he hated celery.

Huh. Didn't know there was enough going on in celery to inspire hate. I think it's kind of boring, but it's mostly water...

334 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:47:09am

re: #323 Alouette

It is actually not forbidden for a woman to wear talis and tefillin if she wishes to do so, in the privacy of her own home or at a private gathering of women. However, doing so in an ostentatious display at a public place where some hotheads are sure to get pissed off is just attention whoring.

That poor kid who put on tefillin on an airplane and freaked people out, was just clueless. These women know exactly what they are doing. And it is certainly wrong to freak out and feed them the martyr cookies they are addicted to.

Putting tefillin on in a plane and praying at the Kotel are two completely different things.

My most humble of opinions, no one has any business telling someone else who is not being disrepectful in the least, what to wear when they pray.

335 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:47:55am

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

Well if you want to see the full discussion it is in the thread about hatemail downstairs.

There are quite a few who would argue that a Talit is a man's garment and that for her to publicly wear one would be a violation of cross dressing.

So are pants ??

336 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:48:10am

re: #323 Alouette

I think this is where you see disagreement based on the direction the point of view is coming from. (Note: this applies to more than just religious issues, but that is the case being discussed at hand.)

a. Women wearing "men's" religious clothing will set off hot-heads. Them wearing it in private, or just among women not considered an issue.

Q: Should said hotheads be given a free pass to go ballistic over anything they want to? (Be catered to in their biases and prejudices simply because their POV was there first)

Q: Should these women go about agitating just to get martyr cookies? (Knowing that there are hotheads out there they can push the buttons of)

Both sides right? Both sides wrong? Extremes disrupting things for those who are willing to tolerate and just get along?

337 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:49:06am

re: #334 marjoriemoon

Putting tefillin on in a plane and praying at the Kotel are two completely different things.

My most humble of opinions, no one has any business telling someone else who is not being disrepectful in the least, what to wear when they pray.

Well check out the debate down stairs.

Respectfully, I posit, and I am very very pro woman that if a woman would not wear tube tops and ripped jeans to a formal affair - and neither would a man, and everyone gets that, why should she be exempt from wearing appropriate attire at the holiest site of the faith?

338 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:49:08am

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

Well if you want to see the full discussion it is in the thread about hatemail downstairs.

There are quite a few who would argue that a Talit is a man's garment and that for her to publicly wear one would be a violation of cross dressing.

I'll go look at the discussion. I saw some of it last night, but I always have the poor luck of having to log out when things get good! I saw the mention of Nodrat at the Wall and read her story. I was appalled at her treatment.

339 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:49:16am

re: #334 marjoriemoon

Putting tefillin on in a plane and praying at the Kotel are two completely different things.

My most humble of opinions, no one has any business telling someone else who is not being disrepectful in the least, what to wear when they pray.

So it's OK to pray wearing a speedo? What about a Pope hat?

340 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:50:32am

re: #339 Alouette

So it's OK to pray wearing a speedo? What about a Pope hat?

Well, the Pope does it.

/the hat I mean.

341 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:51:39am

re: #335 marjoriemoon

So are pants ??

Actually, I addressed that too. I am personally of the opiniono that womens pants are clearly socially defined as womens garments and do not count as cross dressing and perhaps more importantly, since no man who did not suffer a terrible disfigurement could wear them comfortably, they are functionally women's clothing. As such, to me, that is no different than a Scottish Jewish man being allowed to wear a Kilt.

They are womens clothing. Others take a more harsh view than me on this however.

342 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:51:44am

re: #339 Alouette

So it's OK to pray wearing a speedo? What about a Pope hat?

...trying to think of what action IS acceptable in a speedo...

343 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:52:42am

re: #342 Aceofwhat?

...trying to think of what action IS acceptable in a speedo...

It depends on if you have the body to pull one off I should think.

344 Blueheron  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:52:52am

Williams travels to U.S. for heart surgery
theglobeandmail.com

The heart and soul of Newfoundland politics is in for repair – and it's not in his home province or even in Canada, for that matter.

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams is scheduled for heart surgery in the United States, a move that throws into question his province's and his nation's health-care system.

A source confirmed to The Globe and Mail late Monday that Mr. Williams has left St. John's for an undisclosed destination in the U.S. to have heart surgery later in the week.

The 59-year-old Conservative left Monday morning, spokeswoman Elizabeth Matthews said, without disclosing his location. While some of his critics were tight-lipped Monday night, the online public questioned his exodus – why the care he needed was not available in Canada, or whether he preferred treatment in the U.S.

His departure for a U.S. hospital is being met with both sympathy and anger as few details have emerged.

snip..
The remaining details are expected to be revealed at a news conference today by Deputy Premier Kathy D

345 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:53:04am

re: #337 LudwigVanQuixote

Well check out the debate down stairs.

Respectfully, I posit, and I am very very pro woman that if a woman would not wear tube tops and ripped jeans to a formal affair - and neither would a man, and everyone gets that, why should she be exempt from wearing appropriate attire at the holiest site of the faith?

I know you're pro woman :) I have no doubts on that. It's a traditional religious item and I know people get touchy about it. But I don't think it could be compared to tube tops for men, unless maybe they have man boobs, but then it would still be weird.

It's like when women were forbidden to wear pants. It's a ridiculous discussion to me. If women at the Kotel pray separately from the men (and they do) it should be enough.

346 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:53:30am

re: #339 Alouette

So it's OK to pray wearing a speedo? What about a Pope hat?

You consider the tallis the same as a speedo or a pope hat? I'm not following this.

347 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:53:31am

re: #340 Obdicut

Well, the Pope does it.

/the hat I mean.

How do you know he doesn't wear a speedo too?

348 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:54:45am

Somali pirates are at it again; they've captured a North Korean (Libyian?) ship off the coast of Somalia. It was traveling outside the recommended corridors (protected by international navy ships on patrol).

The MV Rim was seized in the Gulf of Aden, outside the internationally recommended transit corridor patrolled by the anti-piracy naval coalition, said Cmdr. Anders Kallin of the EU Naval Force.

The MV Rim has not had any communication with maritime authorities, but Kallin said an American warship, the USS Porter, and a helicopter from American warship USS Farragut confirmed the seizure of the ship to the EU.

The 4,800-ton ship is owned by White Sea Shipping of Libya. It is carrying unknown cargo and the number and nationalities of the crew are not known. The seized ship was heading toward the Somali coast and warships were monitoring the situation, the EU Naval Force said.

The MV Rim is the third ship seized by Somali pirates this year. Its crew will join more than 180 sailors being held hostage along the Somali coast.

349 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:55:09am

re: #346 marjoriemoon

You consider the tallis the same as a speedo or a pope hat? I'm not following this.

No her point is that we have to conform to accepted norms at social events and that the Kotel has well established accepted norms.

350 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:56:16am

re: #342 Aceofwhat?

Swimming, maybe tanning. Keep it simple. Everything else in a speedo is wrong in public view.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:56:46am

re: #323 Alouette

It is actually not forbidden for a woman to wear talis and tefillin if she wishes to do so, in the privacy of her own home or at a private gathering of women. However, doing so in an ostentatious display at a public place where some hotheads are sure to get pissed off is just attention whoring.

That poor kid who put on tefillin on an airplane and freaked people out, was just clueless. These women know exactly what they are doing. And it is certainly wrong to freak out and feed them the martyr cookies they are addicted to.

It's not forbidden for a woman to wear a tallis. It's not forbidden for women to pray at the Kotel It's just forbidden to upset the self-righteous?

352 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:56:59am

re: #345 marjoriemoon

I know you're pro woman :) I have no doubts on that. It's a traditional religious item and I know people get touchy about it. But I don't think it could be compared to tube tops for men, unless maybe they have man boobs, but then it would still be weird.

It's like when women were forbidden to wear pants. It's a ridiculous discussion to me. If women at the Kotel pray separately from the men (and they do) it should be enough.

Since slacks are so commonly worn by women and women's slacks really are not something a man can wear without obviously cross dressing, I mean consider capri pants for instance, I do not have an issue with them.

353 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:57:01am

re: #348 lawhawk

Somali pirates are at it again; they've captured a North Korean (Libyian?) ship off the coast of Somalia. It was traveling outside the recommended corridors (protected by international navy ships on patrol).

ARGH. This whole thing is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I kinda wish someone would start taking these pirates seriously.

354 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:57:06am

re: #341 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I addressed that too. I am personally of the opiniono that womens pants are clearly socially defined as womens garments and do not count as cross dressing and perhaps more importantly, since no man who did not suffer a terrible disfigurement could wear them comfortably, they are functionally women's clothing. As such, to me, that is no different than a Scottish Jewish man being allowed to wear a Kilt.

They are womens clothing. Others take a more harsh view than me on this however.

If I want to wear a suit and tie, no one should bother me. If I want to walk down the street in a bikini, same thing. I don't have a problem with any of this.

Praying in a religious building is a completely different thing, of course, and you give respect where you are. It would be completely inappropriate to wear a bikini in church or a temple. But it would not be inappropriate for a Jew (male or female) to don a religious item that is USED TO PRAY simple because of gender. This is not the first century where women are at home raising children and not participating in spiritual pursuits.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:57:46am

re: #329 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is pretty much what I said. However not everyone would agree with that. I understand the Chassidim have an answer to this, but, there is the issue about what beracha she would say.

I absolutely disagree. Whether a woman wears a tallis is a matter of community custom.

356 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:57:50am

re: #343 LudwigVanQuixote

It depends on if you have the body to pull one off I should think.

I would submit that even such a person would look much better in different attire...but I'm no admirer of the male form.

357 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:58:39am

re: #344 Blueheron

very interesting

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 8:59:27am

re: #339 Alouette

So it's OK to pray wearing a speedo? What about a Pope hat?

You're obsessed with the 'Pope hat'. Respectfully, I would point out that Jews wear those every day.

359 EastSider  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:00:03am

Here Pelican Pelican Pelican!

/Scarface

360 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:00:03am

Does the Talmud say anything about a woman not being allowed to wear a Tallis?

361 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:00:12am

re: #350 Rightwingconspirator

Swimming, maybe tanning. Keep it simple. Everything else in a speedo is wrong in public view.

I find speedos wrong in those situations too...although i stop far short of confronting the individual. I'm not self-righteous about speedos//

362 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:00:28am

re: #344 Blueheron

Oh, it gets better. Some Canadian docs are in CYA mode - claiming Williams could have gotten the procedure done somewhere in Canada, but at least one made the admission that it would take longer to get it and the accommodations aren't nearly as nice as those in the US.

363 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:00:29am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not forbidden for a woman to wear a tallis. It's not forbidden for women to pray at the Kotel It's just forbidden to upset the self-righteous?

NO, not at all. It is a violation of accepted norms. I was really really clear that the fact that certain people would riot does not excuse the rioters. However, some things are appropriate for the place and others aren't. These are not my rules. These are age old Traditions and there is no reason for a woman to wear a talit anyway as wearing one does not confer a man some sort of greater spiritual status. IN fact, as per the Tradition, since men are seen to require more reminders than women to be focussed, wearing a talit for men if anything puts them on a lower level spiritually than women.

The fact that she just wants to but can not, mat be a restriction on her, but also just saying she can is a restriction on those who adhere to Tradition and they have rights too.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:01:27am

re: #349 LudwigVanQuixote

No her point is that we have to conform to accepted norms at social events and that the Kotel has well established accepted norms.

Well-established? OK. But norms change. There are photographs from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries of men and women praying side-by-side at the Wall, something that is now not permitted.

365 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:02:00am

re: #349 LudwigVanQuixote

No her point is that we have to conform to accepted norms at social events and that the Kotel has well established accepted norms.

Time to push the norms, baby.

Do men who object to women wearing a tallit feel that the women is desecrating it in some way? And if so, how?

366 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:02:31am

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

You're obsessed with the 'Pope hat'. Respectfully, I would point out that Jews wear those every day.

lol we do?? I forgot mine!

367 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:02:46am

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not forbidden for a woman to wear a tallis. It's not forbidden for women to pray at the Kotel It's just forbidden to upset the self-righteous?

Who is self righteous? The WoWzers are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet, right up alongside Neturei Karta and the Phelps cult.

Because other people attack them, does not mean they are right.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:03:14am

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

Since slacks are so commonly worn by women and women's slacks really are not something a man can wear without obviously cross dressing, I mean consider capri pants for instance, I do not have an issue with them.

So how do we define something that's clearly intended to be a woman's tallis?

369 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:03:33am

re: #354 marjoriemoon

If I want to wear a suit and tie, no one should bother me. If I want to walk down the street in a bikini, same thing. I don't have a problem with any of this.

Praying in a religious building is a completely different thing, of course, and you give respect where you are. It would be completely inappropriate to wear a bikini in church or a temple. But it would not be inappropriate for a Jew (male or female) to don a religious item that is USED TO PRAY simple because of gender. This is not the first century where women are at home raising children and not participating in spiritual pursuits.

Umm Jewish women were always engaging in spiritual pursuits. It was Hannah the mother of Shmuel who taught us how to pray in the first place and we are taught that we are preserved in the merit of the righteus women. Further, being exempt from time required prayer is not something that is against women. No one stops them from prayer and no one thinks that their prayers are less in any way.

You are imposing false things on the Tradition that are not there.

Like I said downstairs there are women's issues in Judaism that thinking people should seriously address, like agunot. but prayer is not one of those issues because there really is no inequality there at all, and what is there is actually against men - like having to pray in a minyan for instance.

370 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:04:03am

re: #365 marjoriemoon

Time to push the norms, baby.

Do men who object to women wearing a tallit feel that the women is desecrating it in some way? And if so, how?

No I think you are being disrespectful of Tradition.

371 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:04:36am

Interesting.

372 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:04:45am

re: #364 SanFranciscoZionist

Well-established? OK. But norms change. There are photographs from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries of men and women praying side-by-side at the Wall, something that is now not permitted.

There was no mechitzah in the 19th and early 20th century not because it was allowed to pray together, but because the Turks and the British did not allow the Jews to place one. Men and women separated voluntarily.

Something that the Turks and the British prohibited the Jews from doing does not make that a "norm which has changed."

373 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:05:47am

re: #362 lawhawk

Oh, it gets better. Some Canadian docs are in CYA mode - claiming Williams could have gotten the procedure done somewhere in Canada, but at least one made the admission that it would take longer to get it and the accommodations aren't nearly as nice as those in the US.

"Dr. Arvind Koshal, a prominent Alberta cardiac surgeon, told the Globe and Mail Williams is sending the message that if you have money, you can forgo the hassles of public health care and pay for quicker service south of the border. "

You know, the heart procedures...it's not like they need to get done sooner rather than later...

374 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:06:28am

re: #361 Aceofwhat?

I find speedos wrong in those situations too...although i stop far short of confronting the individual. I'm not self-righteous about speedos//

A friend of mine told me she was once on vacation in France and she and her friends decided to go swimming at a public pool. One of the rules was men had to wear a speedo, and since one of her friends didn't have one they offered to rent him one.

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:06:40am

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote


The fact that she just wants to but can not, mat be a restriction on her, but also just saying she can is a restriction on those who adhere to Tradition and they have rights too.

No, it's not a restriction on them, and in this situation they have the decidedly upper hand.

It's the custom of my community for a woman to wear a tallis. I see three generations of women and girls wearing them at services at my shul. When does our tradition become Tradition? Are we going to arest women for praying at the wall wearing their great-grandmothers' tallis?

376 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:06:52am

re: #344 Blueheron

re: #362 lawhawk

And Americans go to Canada to get health care too.

We're right next to each other. It happens a lot. Doctors send people to where they can get the best care. And US citizens hop across the border to Canada to get free health care, as well.

Interesting social point: The Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, the politician most responsible for for the Canadian health care system, the greatest Canadian in history.

377 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:07:01am

re: #364 SanFranciscoZionist

Well-established? OK. But norms change. There are photographs from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries of men and women praying side-by-side at the Wall, something that is now not permitted.

That may be. That is because the Wall was not then under rabbinic authority.

Just because there have always been Jews who ignore the LAw even at the Kotel, does not mean they should now or any other time.

I assure you that men and women praying separately goes back a lot further than the 1800's and it id for good reason. Whether you like it or not, the idea of prayer is to go and pray and if you are in mixed seating, male or female, the tendency is to focus on the opposite gender.

378 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:07:04am

re: #368 SanFranciscoZionist

So how do we define something that's clearly intended to be a woman's tallis?

That is a fashion statement, not a religious requirement.

379 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:07:59am

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's not a restriction on them, and in this situation they have the decidedly upper hand.

It's the custom of my community for a woman to wear a tallis. I see three generations of women and girls wearing them at services at my shul. When does our tradition become Tradition? Are we going to arest women for praying at the wall wearing their great-grandmothers' tallis?

My great grandmother did not wear a talis. Nor did yours.

380 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:08:08am

re: #367 Alouette

Who is self righteous? The WoWzers are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet, right up alongside Neturei Karta and the Phelps cult.

Because other people attack them, does not mean they are right.

It doesn't mean they're wrong, either. And comparing women who pray in a way you don't fine necessary to Neturei Karta and the Westboro Baptists is way over the top.

381 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:08:20am

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote

No I think you are being disrespectful of Tradition.

I don't understand how. Really I don't. Just because it's outside the norm. I don't think it leads to watering down the religion.

God can't possibly mind it. Judaism is a malleable religion. Putting reform Jews aside, even Modern Orthodox women want more complex roles and they are getting them.

382 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:08:21am

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's not a restriction on them, and in this situation they have the decidedly upper hand.

It's the custom of my community for a woman to wear a tallis. I see three generations of women and girls wearing them at services at my shul. When does our tradition become Tradition? Are we going to arest women for praying at the wall wearing their great-grandmothers' tallis?

I think you are are blowing that out of proportion. As to getting arrested it depends on how much of a disturbance they make by trying to make a statement.

383 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:08:24am

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we going to arest women for praying at the wall wearing their great-grandmothers' tallis?

Very apt point.

Especially as someone who comes from the Sephardim, this discussion is interesting.

384 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:09:17am

I'm beginning to think this is not really a good topic for LGF. Maybe we should take it over to Vos is Neias blog.

385 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:09:34am

re: #376 Obdicut

re: #362 lawhawk

And Americans go to Canada to get health care too.

Other than prescription drugs, I have never heard of that.

386 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:10:12am

re: #374 Mad Al-Jaffee

A friend of mine told me she was once on vacation in France and she and her friends decided to go swimming at a public pool. One of the rules was men had to wear a speedo, and since one of her friends didn't have one they offered to rent him one.

They're all over the place in Europe. Same as when i lived in Belgium. Can't think of a less flattering piece of clothing off the top of my head...

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:10:38am

re: #369 LudwigVanQuixote

Umm Jewish women were always engaging in spiritual pursuits. It was Hannah the mother of Shmuel who taught us how to pray in the first place and we are taught that we are preserved in the merit of the righteus women. Further, being exempt from time required prayer is not something that is against women. No one stops them from prayer and no one thinks that their prayers are less in any way.

You are imposing false things on the Tradition that are not there.

Like I said downstairs there are women's issues in Judaism that thinking people should seriously address, like agunot. but prayer is not one of those issues because there really is no inequality there at all, and what is there is actually against men - like having to pray in a minyan for instance.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle on this one. It's unreasonable to pretend that men's ritual life is not traditionally given priority in the community, no matter how much glory is given to a woman's roles.

388 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:10:56am

re: #381 marjoriemoon

I don't understand how. Really I don't. Just because it's outside the norm. I don't think it leads to watering down the religion.

God can't possibly mind it. Judaism is a malleable religion. Putting reform Jews aside, even Modern Orthodox women want more complex roles and they are getting them.

There is not now, nor has there ever been a restriction on Jewish women learning. Yenta aside, that is not the Law.

There are however certain mitzvot that are male mitzvot and others that are female mitzvot.

There is nothing wrong with that. Yes I can bake challah and separate a portion of the dough. I can light Shabbos candles, but for a Jewish woman to do that to sanctify her home is something else. It is girl territory and I am not offended by that.

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:11:56am

re: #372 Alouette

There was no mechitzah in the 19th and early 20th century not because it was allowed to pray together, but because the Turks and the British did not allow the Jews to place one. Men and women separated voluntarily.

Something that the Turks and the British prohibited the Jews from doing does not make that a "norm which has changed."

Men and women did NOT separate voluntarily. Look at the photos. They didn't pray in mixed minyanim, obviously, but they prayed side by side.

390 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:12:02am

re: #376 Obdicut

re: #362 lawhawk

And Americans go to Canada to get health care too.

We're right next to each other. It happens a lot. Doctors send people to where they can get the best care. And US citizens hop across the border to Canada to get free health care, as well.

Interesting social point: The Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, the politician most responsible for for the Canadian health care system, the greatest Canadian in history.

hopping a border to get what is free or what is not permitted in the US is a much different discussion than hopping the border to get a serious procedure, although i think it highlights the [current] strengths and weaknesses of each system quite nicely.

391 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:12:23am

I'm still pissed that one of the Wowzers insulted me several years ago, "stupid little cow slave" in the same way they complain about being insulted now.

OK to insult me but not for thee?

392 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:13:13am

Forgive my ignorance but, what's a 'Wowzer'?

393 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:13:21am

re: #384 Alouette

I'm beginning to think this is not really a good topic for LGF. Maybe we should take it over to Vos is Neias blog.

Why? I'm enjoying it.

394 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:13:23am

drive by OT -

I am at my restaurant this morning and something happened that I thought I'd share.

We have some local kids/young adults from a nearby special needs board-and-care who come in some mornings and help clean. The restaurant is cleaned the night before, of course, and we sometimes have to clean after they come through, but it gives these folks an important sense of belonging and purpose to "have a job" which is why we do it.

One of the kids takes it so seriously that he comes in a suit. It is a pin stripe suit that is three piece and makes him look like a banker. I assume his parents lovingly bought it for him for his "job" and he takes great pride in wearing it.

Well today he wore the suit but without the vest and without the tie. So I asked him why.

"It's casual day."

I have to say that, while being tough work with long hours, owning a restaurant has hidden rewards.

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:13:24am

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

That may be. That is because the Wall was not then under rabbinic authority.

Just because there have always been Jews who ignore the LAw even at the Kotel, does not mean they should now or any other time.

I assure you that men and women praying separately goes back a lot further than the 1800's and it id for good reason. Whether you like it or not, the idea of prayer is to go and pray and if you are in mixed seating, male or female, the tendency is to focus on the opposite gender.

OK. We're not going to convince each other. Please, however, be assured that I am not ignorant of Jewish ritual history, and that my practice and beliefs is not based on a kneejerk assumption that male mitzvot are 'better'.

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:13:56am

re: #378 Alouette

That is a fashion statement, not a religious requirement.

Clearly, we're not going to agree.

397 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:14:15am

re: #367 Alouette

Who is self righteous? The WoWzers are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet, right up alongside Neturei Karta and the Phelps cult.

Because other people attack them, does not mean they are right.

Outrageous analogy. You would compare these women to those who hang out with Achemdinejad? Wow. Just wow.

398 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:14:32am

re: #392 Varek Raith

Forgive my ignorance but, what's a 'Wowzer'?

Wasn't he the deep voiced singer in "Sha Na Na"?

/

399 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:14:48am

Wowzer?

400 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:14:53am

re: #379 Alouette

My great grandmother did not wear a talis. Nor did yours.

There are little girls at my shul whose great-grandmothers do.

401 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:15:06am

re: #395 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. We're not going to convince each other. Please, however, be assured that I am not ignorant of Jewish ritual history, and that my practice and beliefs is not based on a kneejerk assumption that male mitzvot are 'better'.

That is fair. Even though I have met some who are like that I honestly, and please believe this, would never expect that of you.

However, I must ask you why wear a Tallit and if you do, do you wear Tefillin?

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:15:43am

re: #382 LudwigVanQuixote

I think you are are blowing that out of proportion. As to getting arrested it depends on how much of a disturbance they make by trying to make a statement.

What does the law say?

403 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:16:14am

re: #384 Alouette

I'm beginning to think this is not really a good topic for LGF. Maybe we should take it over to Vos is Neias blog.

I think it's a pointless discussion here, yes.

404 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:17:16am

re: #398 MrSilverDragon

Wasn't he the deep voiced singer in "Sha Na Na"?

/

That's Bowser.

405 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:17:38am

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

Canada has world-class doctors and world-class hospitals. US citizens go to Canada for serious procedures as well as hop the border.

Many Americans are going to other places, too-- like Thailand and even India-- even for serious issues, because the cost differential is so high, and, if insurance won't cover costs, is the only financially viable option.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

406 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:17:47am

re: #400 SanFranciscoZionist

There are little girls at my shul whose great-grandmothers do.

"Ancient tradition since 1985"

407 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:17:55am

What's a WoWzer?

408 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:18:40am

re: #391 Alouette

I'm still pissed that one of the Wowzers insulted me several years ago, "stupid little cow slave" in the same way they complain about being insulted now.

OK to insult me but not for thee?

I'm sorry that woman insulted you, but I've been called just as bad by a couple of frum women, and I still defend the right of frum women to do mitzvot in the way they judge best. One jerk does not define a movement.

409 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:19:09am

re: #376 Obdicut

This is a particularly interesting point - given that Williams is:
1) a proponent of the Canadian health care system;
2) a millionaire (his nickname is apparently Danny Millions).

What his case says - if you've got money in Canada, you can go somewhere else to get care (and in his particular case appears that the procedure wasn't available in his province (Newfoundland) and possibly not in Canada at all - it would depend on what the actual procedure was) and that he wasn't willing to wait in line for the procedure and wanted better digs if it was actually available somewhere else in Canada.

410 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:19:50am

re: #369 LudwigVanQuixote

Umm Jewish women were always engaging in spiritual pursuits. It was Hannah the mother of Shmuel who taught us how to pray in the first place and we are taught that we are preserved in the merit of the righteus women. Further, being exempt from time required prayer is not something that is against women. No one stops them from prayer and no one thinks that their prayers are less in any way.

You are imposing false things on the Tradition that are not there.

Like I said downstairs there are women's issues in Judaism that thinking people should seriously address, like agunot. but prayer is not one of those issues because there really is no inequality there at all, and what is there is actually against men - like having to pray in a minyan for instance.

Judaism is (and always was) very conscious about women's roles in society, including praying. There is no inequality, indeed and you're right. The requirements are more strict for men because they have to work harder at what comes natural to us.

If wearing the Tallit makes a woman feel a stronger connection to God, I don't understand the problem.

411 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:20:43am

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

What does the law say?

Secular I am not sure it says anything outside of the Israeli authorities would like to prevent disturbances.

Halachicly, as far as I know wearing a Talit by a woman id cross dressing and therefore prohibited because it is a man's garment by tradition.

What I mean by that is a garment that is traditionally male and a Tallit certainly is, is defined by Halacha as a man's garment. That is the point about a kilt, a Scottish Jewish man could wear one.

But a Tallit is male everywhere.

Now how it got that way is a moot point, because once it is male, it is cross dressing. I ahve no beef with women who want to go to their own shul and pray as they feel they should. But the Kotel is not just their Shul and I find it selfish and disrespectful to impose a minority view on the majority in the place of thousands of years over well established Tradition - particularly at the Kotel.

412 YaYa  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:20:45am

What with Texas population growing so fast and the influence from there growing. What is up with this Deborah Medina and her now being at 18% and Kay Hutchison only at 33% after the latest debate.

I am from Texas but the press has not said much about her yet.

Some news says she is a Ron Paul deal yet seems he only had 3% or less.

Where is her support coming from?

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:21:34am

re: #401 LudwigVanQuixote

That is fair. Even though I have met some who are like that I honestly, and please believe this, would never expect that of you.

However, I must ask you why wear a Tallit and if you do, do you wear Tefillin?

Primarily for reasons of community norm, because it is what I grew up with and am comfortable with, and because I find it helps me pray with kavannah.

As far as tefillin are converned--'not yet'.

414 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:21:35am

re: #391 Alouette

I'm still pissed that one of the Wowzers insulted me several years ago, "stupid little cow slave" in the same way they complain about being insulted now.

OK to insult me but not for thee?

Of course not. Or did you insult them first?

415 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:21:40am

re: #405 Obdicut

Canada has world-class doctors and world-class hospitals. US citizens go to Canada for serious procedures as well as hop the border.

Many Americans are going to other places, too-- like Thailand and even India-- even for serious issues, because the cost differential is so high, and, if insurance won't cover costs, is the only financially viable option.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

from your link...

Some Canadians and Europeans said they chose to travel aboard, despite having national health plans, because they are tired of waiting -- sometimes years -- for treatment.

Americans aren't going to Canada for serious procedures because the doctors, facilities, and wait times are better in Canada. Period.

416 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:22:16am

re: #406 Alouette

"Ancient tradition since 1985"

Someday that will be ancient tradition too.

417 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:22:18am

re: #206 Aceofwhat?

I remember Giannoulias from the treasury race...DFalcon can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that daddy owns banks. Can I get a "down with the elitists" wha-wha from my lefties?

hello?

echo?

No, you're right. His family owns banks. Mark Kirk beat back a Tea Party challenge to win the GOP nomination, but the governorship nod has yet to be decided. SoCon candidate Bill Brady is is leading by 500 votes. Hopefully the absentees late reports put Kirk Dillard or Andy McKenna in instead. Brady is not likely to do well in Illinois.

418 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:22:36am

WoW is Women of the Wall.

[Link: womenofthewall.blogspot.com...]

419 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:23:19am

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Primarily for reasons of community norm, because it is what I grew up with and am comfortable with, and because I find it helps me pray with kavannah.

As far as tefillin are converned--'not yet'.

Which is something respectfully, I have never understood about Talit wearing ladies. If you want to argue about what is a really big Mitzvah, Tefillin dwarfs Talit... Yet so few actually care to do that mitzvah, yet they get all up in arms about Tefillin. If you are going to do this, why not go all the way?

420 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:23:28am

re: #408 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry that woman insulted you, but I've been called just as bad by a couple of frum women, and I still defend the right of frum women to do mitzvot in the way they judge best. One jerk does not define a movement.

We few remaining sane, Christian, right-leaning folks would like to thank you for saying that out loud. Granted, it's more like "1.5 million jerks do not define a movement", but it's a start!

421 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:23:28am

re: #414 marjoriemoon

Of course not. Or did you insult them first?

Of course not. They invited me to join their little demonstration and I said no thank you. One of the very aggressive ones yelled at me. I just cringed away from her and did not throw a chair.

422 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:23:52am

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

Which is something respectfully, I have never understood about Talit wearing ladies. If you want to argue about what is a really big Mitzvah, Tefillin dwarfs Talit... Yet so few actually care to do that mitzvah, yet they get all up in arms about Talit. If you are going to do this, why not go all the way?

423 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:24:16am

re: #418 marjoriemoon

WoW is Women of the Wall.

[Link: womenofthewall.blogspot.com...]

Thanks!
:)

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:24:30am

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

Secular I am not sure it says anything outside of the Israeli authorities would like to prevent disturbances.

Halachicly, as far as I know wearing a Talit by a woman id cross dressing and therefore prohibited because it is a man's garment by tradition.

What I mean by that is a garment that is traditionally male and a Tallit certainly is, is defined by Halacha as a man's garment. That is the point about a kilt, a Scottish Jewish man could wear one.

But a Tallit is male everywhere.

Now how it got that way is a moot point, because once it is male, it is cross dressing. I ahve no beef with women who want to go to their own shul and pray as they feel they should. But the Kotel is not just their Shul and I find it selfish and disrespectful to impose a minority view on the majority in the place of thousands of years over well established Tradition - particularly at the Kotel.

The Kotel is everyone's shul.

And there is considerable evidence of individual women choosing to wear a tallis and tefillin going back centuries. The 'cross-dresing' idea, AFAIK, is of fairly recent origin. This is not a cut-and-dried thing.

425 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:24:33am

re: #418 marjoriemoon

WoW is Women of the Wall.

[Link: womenofthewall.blogspot.com...]

Thank you.

426 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:25:37am

re: #415 Aceofwhat?

from your link...

Some Canadians and Europeans said they chose to travel aboard, despite having national health plans, because they are tired of waiting -- sometimes years -- for treatment.

Americans aren't going to Canada for serious procedures because the doctors, facilities, and wait times are better in Canada. Period.

There was a time, when the US dollar was stronger that some people came to Canada for cosmetic procedures (not free even in Canada). I was told Vancouver got very popular for Boobs.

427 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:26:41am

re: #424 SanFranciscoZionist

And here I thought the primary reason that women didn't wear a tallis or tefellin was that they weren't obligated to do so; it's a mitzvah for men to do so (in addition to actually attending services).

[Link: www.jewfaq.org...]

428 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:26:51am

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

429 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:27:17am

re: #426 Buck

There was a time, when the US dollar was stronger that some people came to Canada for cosmetic procedures (not free even in Canada). I was told Vancouver got very popular for Boobs.

Capitalization?

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:27:42am

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is something respectfully, I have never understood about Talit wearing ladies. If you want to argue about what is a really big Mitzvah, Tefillin dwarfs Talit... Yet so few actually care to do that mitzvah, yet they get all up in arms about Tefillin. If you are going to do this, why not go all the way?

I'm not 'arguing about what is a really big mitzvah' at all.

431 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:28:00am

re: #409 lawhawk

Sure. And the woman in the article I linked was not able to afford to get the heart operation here in the US, so she flew to India in order to get it at a fraction of the cost. And there's nothing even particularly wrong with that. But seizing on these individual cases and acting as though they mean something about the system is silly.

Remember when there was that asinine froo-fur-ah about how Hawkings wouldn't have survived if he'd had NHS care, and then it turned out his care was NHS care?

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Does that prove anything in particular about socialized medicine?

432 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:28:12am

re: #348 lawhawk

Somali pirates are at it again; they've captured a North Korean (Libyian?) ship off the coast of Somalia. It was traveling outside the recommended corridors (protected by international navy ships on patrol).

Perhaps we should buy it from the pirates. It's probably full of illegal weapons, and since we'd buy it away from the Norks we wouldn't be paying ransom, we'd be paying a bribe. We'd also get the crew, who would likely spill their guts for the chance to come live here.

433 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:28:16am

re: #424 SanFranciscoZionist

The Kotel is everyone's shul.

And there is considerable evidence of individual women choosing to wear a tallis and tefillin going back centuries. The 'cross-dresing' idea, AFAIK, is of fairly recent origin. This is not a cut-and-dried thing.

Really, respectfully what is the Talmudic standard for any garment to be considered male or female? The answer is what the community wears as male or female. Again a skirt is a skirt unless it is a kilt.

Exactly what Jewish community, until very recently ever wore had women wearing Talit as a norm? Answer none. As such it is a man's garment. I really do not see how you escape that.

Now it is true that the reason that women in general do not wear Talit or Tefillin is that it was unclear what beracha they should say to put them on. So in typical rabbinic fashion the practice was frowned on and that is how it became male. Whether or not you think that is a lame reason for it is moot. Once it becomes established as the garment of a certain gender, the cross dressing law applies.

434 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:29:04am

re: #427 lawhawk

And here I thought the primary reason that women didn't wear a tallis or tefellin was that they weren't obligated to do so; it's a mitzvah for men to do so (in addition to actually attending services).

[Link: www.jewfaq.org...]

That's true. Some people take on more.

435 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:29:14am

re: #424 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course it is everyone's shul. And that Shul has certain rules. I don't understand why some people can't respect them.

436 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:29:21am

re: #429 MandyManners

Capitalization?

Typo... I am sure it is Freudian.

437 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:29:23am

re: #426 Buck

There was a time, when the US dollar was stronger that some people came to Canada for cosmetic procedures (not free even in Canada). I was told Vancouver got very popular for Boobs.

Lots of people fly out of the country for boobs. While i find boobs to be serious, i stop short of considering their augmentation to be a 'serious procedure'...//

438 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:30:04am

re: #421 Alouette

Of course not. They invited me to join their little demonstration and I said no thank you. One of the very aggressive ones yelled at me. I just cringed away from her and did not throw a chair.

Then they had no business doing what they did. They threw a chair at you?

But I know how Israelis are. They don't mince words and there's no time for "niceties". They say what they mean, when they mean it. It can sometimes be either refreshing and sometimes insulting.

439 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:30:07am

re: #427 lawhawk

And here I thought the primary reason that women didn't wear a tallis or tefellin was that they weren't obligated to do so; it's a mitzvah for men to do so (in addition to actually attending services).

[Link: www.jewfaq.org...]

That is part of it. The real issue was what beracha do they say. The berachot are very much written in male terms.

440 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:30:21am

re: #432 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps we should buy it from the pirates. It's probably full of illegal weapons, and since we'd buy it away from the Norks we wouldn't be paying ransom, we'd be paying a bribe. We'd also get the crew, who would likely spill their guts for the chance to come live here.

eat regularly

441 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:30:48am

re: #415 Aceofwhat?

Well, you said 'period', so I guess there's nothing more to discuss on the subject with you.

442 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:31:21am

re: #431 Obdicut

Sure. It collaborates what doctors in the US and Canada already believe...if you are paying out of pocket, the US is usually more expensive. And if you want the best care with the least wait, the US is the destination for you.

443 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:31:41am

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

Lots of people fly out of the country for boobs. While i find boobs to be serious, i stop short of considering their augmentation to be a 'serious procedure'...//

Agreed. I have never heard of anyone from the USA coming to Canada for a serious procedure. The wait lists should not allow it. I would be very pissed if anyone got in front of a Canadian on a wait list for any reason. If the reason was money... I think there would be a serious scandal.

444 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:32:45am

re: #434 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #435 LudwigVanQuixote

Very interesting. I can only read this discussion as an outsider but it is both knowledgeable and respectful as well as informative. i hadn't even known what the Kotel was until yesterday.

445 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:33:18am

re: #439 LudwigVanQuixote

And one further note the berachot themselves are really old things, and if they were written for males to when donning Tefillin, then it was already tradition even then that Talit and Tefillin were male things.

446 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:33:51am

re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, respectfully what is the Talmudic standard for any garment to be considered male or female? The answer is what the community wears as male or female. Again a skirt is a skirt unless it is a kilt.

Exactly what Jewish community, until very recently ever wore had women wearing Talit as a norm? Answer none. As such it is a man's garment. I really do not see how you escape that.

Now it is true that the reason that women in general do not wear Talit or Tefillin is that it was unclear what beracha they should say to put them on. So in typical rabbinic fashion the practice was frowned on and that is how it became male. Whether or not you think that is a lame reason for it is moot. Once it becomes established as the garment of a certain gender, the cross dressing law applies.

Exactly this same argument has been applied to women's slacks, of course, and still is in many communities.

447 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:34:01am

re: #444 Dark_Falcon

re: #435 LudwigVanQuixote

Very interesting. I can only read this discussion as an outsider but it is both knowledgeable and respectful as well as informative. i hadn't even known what the Kotel was until yesterday.

Completely. Over. My. Head.
:)

448 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:34:17am

re: #441 Obdicut

Well, you said 'period', so I guess there's nothing more to discuss on the subject with you.

Mom chairs the Mayo clinic. There's my hand. You got a straight flush, or are we going to push the chips over to my side of the table on the whole "quality of care" discussion?

449 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:34:28am

re: #447 Varek Raith

Me both!

450 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:34:46am

re: #435 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course it is everyone's shul. And that Shul has certain rules. I don't understand why some people can't respect them.

Respect has to be mutual.

451 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:34:55am

re: #440 EmmmieG

eat regularly

Agreed. Still, its an idea to consider. I'm not a fan of dealing with pirates, but in this case we might make an exception.

452 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:36:04am

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Still, its an idea to consider. I'm not a fan of dealing with pirates, but in this case we might make an exception.

Ahhh, I long for the days of privateers. Sign me up!
;)

453 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:36:12am

re: #436 Buck

Typo... I am sure it is Freudian.

It appears that they are Important.

454 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:36:41am

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Still, its an idea to consider. I'm not a fan of dealing with pirates, but in this case we might make an exception.

I wonder if the maritime commissions are still advocating against having a Gatling or two on deck for passage through this area...

455 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:37:14am

re: #446 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly this same argument has been applied to women's slacks, of course, and still is in many communities.

Yes it is, and I already said twice that I personally think that is too strict. I do not think that womens slacks look like men's slacks or that men could easily wear them, so I really do not have an issue with it and would not at the Kotel.

Actually to be fair, I have no issue with however any Jewish person prays in their own shul or in their own home. That is really not my point. Even though I personally may disagree with certain things in the Tradition, the Kotel is the center of it, and somewhere on the planet, especially there, the Tradition should remain pristine.

456 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:38:07am

Don't know where Charles is, but he's probably already seen this

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Dutch court will hear case against far-right MP

457 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:38:17am

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

Mom chairs the Mayo clinic. There's my hand. You got a straight flush, or are we going to push the chips over to my side of the table on the whole "quality of care" discussion?

You've only got a full house. There was a reason I stayed in this hand: That pair of threes that gave the full house? I have the other pair. Read 'em and weep!

/Texas Hold 'em humor

458 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:39:29am

re: #456 sattv4u2

'Sup, Sat?

459 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:39:31am

re: #450 SanFranciscoZionist

Respect has to be mutual.

OK, that is absolutely true. Since there is truly no inequality in the value of a woman's prayers, I see no issue of respect not being given to a woman who prays at the Kotel according to Tradition.

Again there are certain things in the Tradition that are vey problematic as women's issues in terms of modern interpretations that are outmoded. Agunot is the biggest one, and for that matter some takes on tsniut are simply insane. But saying that women should wear women's clothes at the Kotel is just not one of those things.

460 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:39:34am

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

Mom chairs the Mayo clinic. There's my hand. You got a straight flush, or are we going to push the chips over to my side of the table on the whole "quality of care" discussion?

"Ya got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away ,, know when to run!!"

461 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:39:41am

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

You've only got a full house. There was a reason I stayed in this hand: That pair of threes that gave the full house? I have the other pair. Read 'em and weep!

/Texas Hold 'em humor

argh, the dreaded four of a kind. help...*grabs chest*...feeling faint...quick, get me on a plane to Canada!!

462 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:39:48am

re: #458 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

'Sup, Sat?

heya FVB

463 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:40:06am

re: #452 Varek Raith

Ahhh, I long for the days of privateers. Sign me up!
;)

I got an amusing email forwarded to me by my mom. It was a spoof advertisement for an "anti-piracy luxury cruise" where you could rent AK-47s, RPG launchers, and enter to win for a chance to shoot up some pirates with a double-mount M2HB .50-caliber machine gun. I laughed, but really, free-market principles just might bring an end to piracy if we let them./

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:40:45am

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes it is, and I already said twice that I personally think that is too strict. I do not think that womens slacks look like men's slacks or that men could easily wear them, so I really do not have an issue with it and would not at the Kotel.

Actually to be fair, I have no issue with however any Jewish person prays in their own shul or in their own home. That is really not my point. Even though I personally may disagree with certain things in the Tradition, the Kotel is the center of it, and somewhere on the planet, especially there, the Tradition should remain pristine.

And I remain sad that for me to stand in that place doing something tradition permits me is considered a provocation.

So. There we are.

465 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:41:06am

I went on the "series of tubes" to find a joke about pelicans.

There are no jokes about pelicans on the internet.

They're funny looking birds. There should be jokes about them.

466 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:41:20am

re: #454 Aceofwhat?

I wonder if the maritime commissions are still advocating against having a Gatling or two on deck for passage through this area...

Yes, they are. But many US warships do mount such weapons in both 7.62 and 12.7mm (.30 and .50 caliber respectively). Both are six barreled electric Gatlings, with the 7.62 model firing at 3,000 rounds per minute. Which will turn a pirate skiff to matchwood in short order.

467 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:41:26am

Greetings all...

468 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:41:38am

re: #463 thedopefishlives

I got an amusing email forwarded to me by my mom. It was a spoof advertisement for an "anti-piracy luxury cruise" where you could rent AK-47s, RPG launchers, and enter to win for a chance to shoot up some pirates with a double-mount M2HB .50-caliber machine gun. I laughed, but really, free-market principles just might bring an end to piracy if we let them./

Oh, that is such a good idea. It'll drain money away from the more rabid SoCon loonies that are mucking up my side of the aisle...and reduce piracy...genius.

469 DaddyG  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:08am

Afternoon Lizardbats and Lizardhawks! I've got 5 minutes before the next meeting and I need a quick mind erasure.

470 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:16am

re: #465 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I found one:

Why do pelicans carry the fish they catch in their beaks?

Because they haven't got any pockets.

471 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:18am
472 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:20am

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes it is, and I already said twice that I personally think that is too strict. I do not think that womens slacks look like men's slacks or that men could easily wear them, so I really do not have an issue with it and would not at the Kotel.

Actually to be fair, I have no issue with however any Jewish person prays in their own shul or in their own home. That is really not my point. Even though I personally may disagree with certain things in the Tradition, the Kotel is the center of it, and somewhere on the planet, especially there, the Tradition should remain pristine.

But the whole Temple was destroyed and desecrated. Twice even! And with the Muslims, three times! How many times was Jerusalem itself sacked? Like 20-30?

It's not a good argument to me and it really does smack as anti-Women. .

I love my religion. It's wonderfully beautiful with many deep layers. It's logical and despite tradition is able to be molded to suit any given culture or scenario. For that reason, really, I don't see the big dealy-o.

And with that I have to leave. Have a good day guys.

473 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:21am

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

You've only got a full house. There was a reason I stayed in this hand: That pair of threes that gave the full house? I have the other pair. Read 'em and weep!

/Texas Hold 'em humor

Taps Black Lotus card.
I win!
/Magic the Gathering geekdom.
:P

474 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:32am

re: #453 MandyManners

It appears that they are Important.

"With the right pair of mammary glands, I could rule this planet."

MIB II

475 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:42:50am

re: #465 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I went on the "series of tubes" to find a joke about pelicans.

There are no jokes about pelicans on the internet.

They're funny looking birds. There should be jokes about them.

only bird joke I know is about two penguins sitting on an ice flow..one says "You look like you're wearing a tuxedo?"
The other one replies "What makes you think I'm not?"

476 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:43:11am

re: #470 Mad Al-Jaffee

yay

477 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:43:13am

re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist

And I remain sad that for me to stand in that place doing something tradition permits me is considered a provocation.

So. There we are.

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. Me coming down on the side I did may feel like a betrayal to you. I am very sorry about that as well.

I don't want to rob you of your kevannah. I understand what you said.

But seriously, if the Tradtion says that you already have more of it without a Talit then I do with one, are you really being discriminated against by the Tradition?

478 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:43:38am

Somewhat surprisingly FOXNews.com did a story on the recent R2K / Kos poll, and without attacking its credibility:

The survey was conducted by Research 2000, a non-partisan firm that polls for the liberal Web site Daily Kos. It surveyed 2,003 Republicans between Jan. 20 and Jan. 31.

On the other hand, if you only read the FOXNews.com coverage of the poll, you'd think its singular focus was the GOP 2012 presidential race:

A new poll shows Republican voters are deeply divided over who they want to carry the party mantle in the 2012 presidential race. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin leads the pack, a couple other names are close behind and a whopping 42 percent of Republicans are listed as undecided.
...
It also showed, among Republicans, 53 percent believe Palin is more qualified to be president than Obama. Just 14 percent think otherwise.

I guess they couldn't resist positive polling data concerning their newest Fox News Contributer :P.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

479 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:43:39am

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

Your mom is Denis Cortise? [Link: www.mayoclinic.org...]

I'm friends with Sam Hawgood and William Schecter. However-- you're right in that for critical surgical services, US citizens don't tend to go to Canada-- though that's a restriction from the Canadian side, not from the US side. However, US citizens still do seek health care outside the US, whether it's pharmaceuticals, cardiac surgeries, etc. US citizens do go abroad to seek health care, and the cause of it is often price-- which equates to availability.

480 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:44:06am

re: #473 Varek Raith

Taps Black Lotus card.
I win!
/Magic the Gathering geekdom.
:P

[eyeroll with a smile]

Morning, Varek!

481 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:44:19am

re: #472 marjoriemoon

But the whole Temple was destroyed and desecrated. Twice even! And with the Muslims, three times! How many times was Jerusalem itself sacked? Like 20-30?

It's not a good argument to me and it really does smack as anti-Women. .

I love my religion. It's wonderfully beautiful with many deep layers. It's logical and despite tradition is able to be molded to suit any given culture or scenario. For that reason, really, I don't see the big dealy-o.

And with that I have to leave. Have a good day guys.

Again how is the notion that a woman without a Tallit has more kevannah than I do with one anti-woman... Isn't it if anything discriminatory the other way?

482 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:44:28am

re: #473 Varek Raith

Taps Black Lotus card.
I win!
/Magic the Gathering geekdom.
:P

I have one.... first series run.

483 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:44:35am

re: #469 DaddyG

Afternoon Lizardbats and Lizardhawks! I've got 5 minutes before the next meeting and I need a quick mind erasure.


This?


484 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:44:39am

re: #479 Obdicut

Your mom is Denis Cortise? [Link: www.mayoclinic.org...]

I'm friends with Sam Hawgood and William Schecter. However-- you're right in that for critical surgical services, US citizens don't tend to go to Canada-- though that's a restriction from the Canadian side, not from the US side. However, US citizens still do seek health care outside the US, whether it's pharmaceuticals, cardiac surgeries, etc. US citizens do go abroad to seek health care, and the cause of it is often price-- which equates to availability.

A lot more medical tourism going on now, with people going to India and Thailand for heart surgery for example.

485 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:45:05am

re: #480 Dark_Falcon

[eyeroll with a smile]

Morning, Varek!

Heh, too much coffee this morning.
Morning!

486 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:45:19am

re: #262 MandyManners

I use my iron skillet. Well, I don't suppose that's true deep-fry but, it works out just fine.

I finally got one for xmas this year. Cast-iron skillets are the only way to do fried chicken.

487 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:45:29am

re: #482 Ericus58

I have one... first series run.

One of the alphas?!
...

488 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:46:39am

re: #479 Obdicut

Your mom is Denis Cortise? [Link: www.mayoclinic.org...]

I'm friends with Sam Hawgood and William Schecter. However-- you're right in that for critical surgical services, US citizens don't tend to go to Canada-- though that's a restriction from the Canadian side, not from the US side. However, US citizens still do seek health care outside the US, whether it's pharmaceuticals, cardiac surgeries, etc. US citizens do go abroad to seek health care, and the cause of it is often price-- which equates to availability.

And I do not dispute that statement at all (i'm leaving Mom's full title vague...she's only chair of one of the major Mayo clinics). People exit the US looking for care almost exclusively for reasons of price. People enter the US looking for care almost exclusively for reasons of availability, quality, or both.

Does that sound like a fairly general statement (there will always be a few exceptions) that we can both subscribe to?

489 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:47:03am
490 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:47:36am

re: #487 Varek Raith

One of the alphas?!
...

easy...i can hear your heart palpitating from Florida//

491 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:48:08am

re: #487 Varek Raith

One of the alphas?!
...

Indeed, good sir. It resides an acrylic card display.
I have an entire set in Alpha and Beta also.
Unopened packs even.
And I do have several game decks that I actually played.... 'twas long ago....

492 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:48:10am

re: #482 Ericus58

I have one... first series run.

From what I'm seeing, they're worth quite alot. Good fortune in you have one.

493 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:48:54am

re: #479 Obdicut

I'm sure Mayo (like any other hospital) has many chairs for many depts
But good googling

(sometimes it tells A staory, but not the WHOLE story)

494 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:49:34am

re: #489 MandyManners

To me? Rick Nielson has always looked like a guy that would've been the most boring accountant ever born, had he not picked up the guitar.

495 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:50:19am

re: #491 Ericus58

Indeed, good sir. It resides an acrylic card display.
I have an entire set in Alpha and Beta also.
Unopened packs even.
And I do have several game decks that I actually played... 'twas long ago...

Damn! That's awesome. Sigh, I regret getting rid of my deck.

496 DaddyG  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:50:21am

Got my fix- thanks! Off to a marathon group writing session. If I don't return thell them I died with the CAPS LOCK on!

497 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:50:41am

Lawhawk...interesting story in the WSJ today about lawyers' out-of-state political donations...

498 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:51:06am

re: #492 Dark_Falcon

From what I'm seeing, they're worth quite alot. Good fortune in you have one.

My only sale of Magic cards was a box of unopened Beta's... think it was around $1500 around the time of my back surgery and needed some cash. '96ish

499 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:51:13am

re: #459 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that is absolutely true. Since there is truly no inequality in the value of a woman's prayers, I see no issue of respect not being given to a woman who prays at the Kotel according to Tradition.

Again there are certain things in the Tradition that are vey problematic as women's issues in terms of modern interpretations that are outmoded. Agunot is the biggest one, and for that matter some takes on tsniut are simply insane. But saying that women should wear women's clothes at the Kotel is just not one of those things.

And I disagree that a tallis is an exclusively male garment, and I disagree that that is what this is about.

500 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:51:49am

Seen Google today?

Norman Rockwell's birthday.

Well done, Googlers.

501 DaddyG  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:52:59am

re: #497 Aceofwhat?

Lawhawk...interesting story in the WSJ today about lawyers' out-of-state political donations...


Don't ever let them tell you we don't have the finest republic money can buy.

502 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:53:56am

re: #500 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seen Google today?

Norman Rockwell's birthday.

Well done, Googlers.

Classy and clever. Well done indeed.

503 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:53:57am

re: #498 Ericus58

My only sale of Magic cards was a box of unopened Beta's... think it was around $1500 around the time of my back surgery and needed some cash. '96ish

I never got into Magic...I think I was well out of D&D geekdom and into PC gaming geekdom by the time that hit...

I tried playing with my son one time, but it just felt like Fizbin to me..

504 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:54:31am

re: #488 Aceofwhat?

People enter the US looking for care almost exclusively for reasons of availability, quality, or both.

Price is availability, for many people, though. The waiting period for a surgery you can't afford in the US is infinite. I'd say that it's safe to say that people come to the US for high-ticket items when they can afford to for the quality of care and the speediness of care. However, people who can't afford something in the US travel abroad for availability as well-- the surgery is not available in the US because it is not affordable to them in the US.

And aside from that, focusing only on the high-end, more indivdiual cases, as I previously said, demonstrates little. Many Americans do got to Canada for health care in the form of pharmaceuticals, which is just as much 'health care' as is surgery.

You're conversant in the area, so I assume you know what an insurer's formulary for physicians is, and the ways that it restricts what doctors can give their patients in the US. Is a drug 'available' to you in the US if the doctor is forced by your insurance to try two other drugs first, even though those drugs have incredibly low rates of efficacy, but are cheap?

Does that sound like a fairly general statement (there will always be a few exceptions) that we can both subscribe to?

Not quite yet. ;)

505 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:55:40am

My Grandmother (RIP) had a huge Norman Rockwell coffee table book. I used to spend hours looking at it.

The good old days sucked, but he made them look cool.

506 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:55:40am

re: #477 LudwigVanQuixote

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. Me coming down on the side I did may feel like a betrayal to you. I am very sorry about that as well.

I don't want to rob you of your kevannah. I understand what you said.

But seriously, if the Tradtion says that you already have more of it without a Talit then I do with one, are you really being discriminated against by the Tradition?

Ludwig, it doesn't feel like a betrayal. I've had this conversation many times, and I'm not offended by differences in opinion.But I am always amused that women are supposed to be so filled with natural holiness, and yet any women who takes on additional mitzvot risks being smacked down as arrogant. Shouldn't our great connection to the divine guide us?

507 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:56:59am

re: #504 Obdicut

Is a drug 'available' to you in the US if the doctor is forced by your insurance to try two other drugs first, even though those drugs have incredibly low rates of efficacy, but are cheap?

Often, however, the doctor will give you samples first of whatever they have on hand without considering that a low priced generic may be just as effective.

Then when you need a refill, they default to keeping you on the higher priced drug, because "it's already working"

508 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:57:06am

re: #505 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"I have two very rare photographs. One is a picture of Houdini locking his keys in his car. The other is a rare photograph of Norman Rockwell beating up a child."

Steven Wright

509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:57:21am

re: #506 SanFranciscoZionist

Shouldn't our great connection to the divine guide us?

I am not sure that a lovelier sentence has ever been posted on the internet.

Lovely indeed.

510 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:57:57am

re: #499 SanFranciscoZionist

And I disagree that a tallis is an exclusively male garment, and I disagree that that is what this is about.

OK that is fair.

To me the whole cross dressing thing really is the Halachic reason. If I was taught incorrectly at Yeshiva then so be it.

BUt you are correct that it is not the real issue for me. The real issue for me is one of preserving the Tradition somewhere where it ought to be preserved.

I tried downstairs to make a less emotional example. I will use it up here.

If you eat a ham sandwich, you are certainly still a Jew. I certainly believe that G-d still loves you. I certainly do not believe He will zot you for it.

However, if you eat a Ham sandwich and call it Traditional Jewish food, we have an issue.

There is a difference between your private right to eat what you wnat and your public righ tto impose your untraditional views on me in the center of the Tradition.

You would not eat a ham sandwich and call it Jewish. YOu certainly, I hope would not bring one to the Kotel.

If you do not ask, why do I not have a right to eat ham at the Kotel immidiately, then you completely understand my point. The answer is because not only is it just not done, but it is honestly disrespectful of the Tradition as established ages ago.

Whether or not you care for the reasons that the Tradition was established, we can agree that it certainly was. It is wrong to do otherwise in the same way it would be wrong for a Catholic to go to the Vatican and do something out of the norm of whatever is expected of him or her at Mass.

511 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:58:07am

re: #507 PT Barnum

And more than that, too. Drug reps encourage doctors to write their prescriptions with 'no substitution', so that generics can't be selected by the pharmacist.

512 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:58:45am

re: #505 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My Grandmother (RIP) had a huge Norman Rockwell coffee table book. I used to spend hours looking at it.

The good old days sucked, but he made them look cool.

Wait...your grandmother had one of those, too?

(I had no cousins my own age, so it was the book, or listen to the aunts psychoanalyze absent relatives.)

513 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:59:18am

re: #506 SanFranciscoZionist

Ludwig, it doesn't feel like a betrayal. I've had this conversation many times, and I'm not offended by differences in opinion.But I am always amused that women are supposed to be so filled with natural holiness, and yet any women who takes on additional mitzvot risks being smacked down as arrogant. Shouldn't our great connection to the divine guide us?

I really like that point. I know exactly the kind of rabbi who might phrase it like that and I promise I would not agree with him or have him as a rabbi.

That is not the point I was making. I think my 510 says it best.

514 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 9:59:51am

re: #511 Obdicut

And more than that, too. Drug reps encourage doctors to write their prescriptions with 'no substitution', so that generics can't be selected by the pharmacist.

I went back to my doc and asked for a generic on my blood pressure meds. The price went from $24 a month with copay to $4 a month. I have had to add an additional beta blocker, but it's a generic as well, so I get that for $4.

So my total cost on the lower priced drugs are 8 vs 24.

515 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:00:07am

re: #504 Obdicut

I know how formularies work. Describe the situation where the patient doesn't have the choice to pay a higher amount for a prescription that both they and their doctor believe will be more effective?

And you're right that flight to lower cost = flight to availability. However, my general stance on health care is that we should make sure that we preserve the latticework that creates the present level of quality as we work on the cost question.

516 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:01:14am

re: #514 PT Barnum

Do be aware that even though the generic is the same molecule, it may have slightly different efficacy-- I forget what the allowable difference is. Keep track of any differences after you switch, just like if you were switching brand-name drugs.

But yeah, generics rule in terms of saving costs.

517 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:01:22am

re: #515 Aceofwhat?

I know how formularies work. Describe the situation where the patient doesn't have the choice to pay a higher amount for a prescription that both they and their doctor believe will be more effective?

If you have to choose between getting the higher priced drug and eating, you don't really have a choice, do you?

518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:01:57am

re: #514 PT Barnum

Those 4 dollar prescriptions have helped millions of people. I'd say they are the greatest medical discovery of the past 25 years.

Figured out by some marketing dude.

519 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:02:31am

re: #503 PT Barnum

I first started acquiring them due to several reasons; being a new form of fantasy gaming, the individual artwork on the cards (prime reason) and the ease of play made it a hit which has stood the test of time.

The Serra Angel was one of my favorite artworks... but there were many many more - and yes, there were a few dogs ;)

520 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:02:38am

re: #507 PT Barnum

Often, however, the doctor will give you samples first of whatever they have on hand without considering that a low priced generic may be just as effective.

Then when you need a refill, they default to keeping you on the higher priced drug, because "it's already working"

I am not accusing Obdicut of this, but i have lost track of how often the same person will complain that
1. Evil pharmaceutical companies entice too many doctors into prescribing unnecessarily expensive pharmaceuticals
and
2. Evil insurance companies make doctors prescribe cheap drugs that aren't nearly as effective as the more expensive alternative.

Can't have it both ways, komrades...

521 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:02:43am

re: #516 Obdicut

Do be aware that even though the generic is the same molecule, it may have slightly different efficacy-- I forget what the allowable difference is. Keep track of any differences after you switch, just like if you were switching brand-name drugs.

But yeah, generics rule in terms of saving costs.

I'm aware of that, and I know some people can't use the generic because it interacts differently than the brand name drug, but I've not had that problem so far. All my medications are generics which saves me over $100 a month.

522 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:03:00am

re: #516 Obdicut

Do be aware that even though the generic is the same molecule, it may have slightly different efficacy-- I forget what the allowable difference is. Keep track of any differences after you switch, just like if you were switching brand-name drugs.

But yeah, generics rule in terms of saving costs.

well said

523 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:03:54am

re: #517 PT Barnum

If you have to choose between getting the higher priced drug and eating, you don't really have a choice, do you?

He said the insurance company forced the doctor to prescribe the cheaper, less effective one...not that the patient couldn't afford it. i'm responding to that specific statement, mon ami-

524 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:04:00am

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

OK that is fair.

To me the whole cross dressing thing really is the Halachic reason. If I was taught incorrectly at Yeshiva then so be it.

BUt you are correct that it is not the real issue for me. The real issue for me is one of preserving the Tradition somewhere where it ought to be preserved.

I tried downstairs to make a less emotional example. I will use it up here.

If you eat a ham sandwich, you are certainly still a Jew. I certainly believe that G-d still loves you. I certainly do not believe He will zot you for it.

However, if you eat a Ham sandwich and call it Traditional Jewish food, we have an issue.

There is a difference between your private right to eat what you wnat and your public righ tto impose your untraditional views on me in the center of the Tradition.

You would not eat a ham sandwich and call it Jewish. YOu certainly, I hope would not bring one to the Kotel.

If you do not ask, why do I not have a right to eat ham at the Kotel immidiately, then you completely understand my point. The answer is because not only is it just not done, but it is honestly disrespectful of the Tradition as established ages ago.

Whether or not you care for the reasons that the Tradition was established, we can agree that it certainly was. It is wrong to do otherwise in the same way it would be wrong for a Catholic to go to the Vatican and do something out of the norm of whatever is expected of him or her at Mass.

I hear what you're saying, but as I say, I do not actually accept that women davening together is trayf, nor that a woman wearing a tallis is, nor even that it is outside the range of acceptable Jewish tradition.

525 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:04:30am

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

I am not accusing Obdicut of this, but i have lost track of how often the same person will complain that
1. Evil pharmaceutical companies entice too many doctors into prescribing unnecessarily expensive pharmaceuticals
and
2. Evil insurance companies make doctors prescribe cheap drugs that aren't nearly as effective as the more expensive alternative.

Can't have it both ways, komrades...

It's probably a matter of human nature. Easier to give a free sample to see if something works than to force someone to pay for a prescription for a few days or weeks worth.

526 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:04:37am

re: #515 Aceofwhat?

I know how formularies work. Describe the situation where the patient doesn't have the choice to pay a higher amount for a prescription that both they and their doctor believe will be more effective?

There isn't such a situation. But they may never know it, and they may not be able to afford it. Having the choice to do something you can't actually do is not really having a choice. They paid for insurance to pay for their medical care. If they don't take the drug mandated by the formulary, they have to pay full price for it while still paying for their insurance. Most people won't do that, or, if they do-- what good is their insurance to them in that transaction?

And you're right that flight to lower cost = flight to availability. However, my general stance on health care is that we should make sure that we preserve the latticework that creates the present level of quality as we work on the cost question.

That I can completely agree with, and I am strongly for measures such as giving more authority and responsibility to nurses and physicans assistants to handle front-line care that can swamp doctors.

What do you think of a switch from the fee-for-service/procedure payment model we have now, to one of the different forms? I assume you've read Gawande on the topic?

527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:04:38am

re: #524 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe if I was Jewish I'd have an idea of what you two are talking about.
/

528 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:05:29am

re: #525 PT Barnum

It's probably a matter of human nature. Easier to give a free sample to see if something works than to force someone to pay for a prescription for a few days or weeks worth.

i'm all about free samples, i think you describe the situation quite well. but then the evil insurance company isn't forcing the doctor to prescribe X, which is what Obdicut said (although i added the 'evil' part)

529 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:05:32am

re: #523 Aceofwhat?

He said the insurance company forced the doctor to prescribe the cheaper, less effective one...not that the patient couldn't afford it. i'm responding to that specific statement, mon ami-

Fair enough...But there are people who will claim that people have choice in this system without considering that choice does not include the ability to pay.

530 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:05:40am

Is that a Pelican Brief?

531 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:05:43am

re: #512 EmmmieG

Wait...your grandmother had one of those, too?

(I had no cousins my own age, so it was the book, or listen to the aunts psychoanalyze absent relatives.)

She didn't have any National Geographics so I could look at boobies.

532 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:05:49am

bbiab

533 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:06:19am

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe if I was Jewish I'd have an idea of what you two are talking about.
/

Ah, maybe not.

Ludwig, thanks for the conversation and the learning, as always. I have to go teach some kids a different tradition--Shakespeare.

534 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:06:22am

re: #526 Obdicut

i gotta run for a bit, need to eat lunch now or i'll miss my opportunity. i'll respond afterwards...great question

535 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:06:46am

re: #531 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

At least you didn't capitalize.

536 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:07:23am

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

2. Evil insurance companies make doctors prescribe cheap drugs that aren't nearly as effective as the more expensive alternative.

But generics are the same drug, so there's no conflict between those statements.

I'm talking about things like mandating a drug that's efficacious in 25% of instances before you give the drug that's efficacious in 90% of instances.

537 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:07:45am

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe if I was Jewish I'd have an idea of what you two are talking about.
/


No you wouldn't ,,,, it would still be you and your brain!!!

//

(wuv ya, big guy!!)

538 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:07:49am

re: #534 Aceofwhat?

No problem. Enjoy the fooding.

539 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:07:50am

re: #530 Spare O'Lake

Is that a Pelican Brief?

No, pelicans wear boxers.

/rimshot

540 RadicalModerate  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:08:10am
541 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:08:39am

re: #526 Obdicut

That I can completely agree with, and I am strongly for measures such as giving more authority and responsibility to nurses and physicans assistants to handle front-line care that can swamp doctors.

What do you think of a switch from the fee-for-service/procedure payment model we have now, to one of the different forms? I assume you've read Gawande on the topic?

Allowing nurse practitioners and PAs to prescribe medication is a great idea, as often a doctor's expertise is not required to prescribe an antibiotic, for example.

542 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:09:22am

re: #539 Dark_Falcon

No, pelicans wear boxers.

/rimshot

But they don't like it...which is what started the whole Boxer Rebellion..

543 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:10:11am

re: #542 PT Barnum

But they don't like it...which is what started the whole Boxer Rebellion..

There's been a rebellion against Barbara Boxer!?!?!

544 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:10:20am

Begun, the Pun Wars have.
:)

545 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:10:47am

re: #541 PT Barnum

Allowing nurse practitioners and PAs to prescribe medication is a great idea, as often a doctor's expertise is not required to prescribe an antibiotic, for example.

I agree. My PA is great. But, when I see a PA at my physicians office, the charge is the same. I've always wondered why.

Shouldn't there be some savings?

546 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:10:57am

re: #544 Varek Raith

Begun, the Pun Wars have.
:)

Yoda man!

547 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:11:01am

re: #503 PT Barnum

I told the Magic players I know (yes, I hang out in game stores... :p ) that I took the W.O.P.R. approach to Magic.*

548 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:11:12am

re: #540 RadicalModerate

The hit just keep on coming for James O'Keefe -

From Salon:

A photo of the righty stuntman at a white-nationalist confab illustrates a career marked by racial resentment

What an ass. He won't fare well in prison if he gets convicted.

549 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:11:34am

re: #547 oaktree

I told the Magic players I know (yes, I hang out in game stores... :p ) that I took the W.O.P.R. approach to Magic.*

WOPR?

550 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:12:08am

re: #549 PT Barnum

Would you like to play a game?

551 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:12:32am

re: #544 Varek Raith

Begun, the Pun Wars have.
:)

Hey, you were silent in that sequence while you watched the troops depart.

/Varek as Palpatine joke

552 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:13:39am

re: #524 SanFranciscoZionist

I hear what you're saying, but as I say, I do not actually accept that women davening together is trayf, nor that a woman wearing a tallis is, nor even that it is outside the range of acceptable Jewish tradition.

OK and that certainly is fair. We Jews have a really long Tradition about arguing about the Tradition for sure!

However, the majority historically and even today sees it differently than you do and even if this particular injunction only has the status of a minhag, it is the majority minhag of the world wide observant community, and then you are still facing an issue in public and particularly at the Kotel.

And that really does bring another point. I do not know your level of observance and I do not wish to pry. So please take my next remark as absolutely NOT directed at you.

I do take a certain offence at Jews who do not keep kashrut or Shabbos lecturing other Jews who are observant on what Jewish law is. I am not in any way G-d forbid saying that they are lesser than observant Jews as Jews. I am certainly not, G-d forbid, trying to say that they are less good people or that G-d loves them less or hears them less or any other such evil clap trap. However, it really is offensive to those of us who keep the Tradition as best we can to be told by those who do not what it is. And not you, but many of the women I have met who make the arguments you do, frankly could not say a prayer in Hebrew or tell you all the holidays, let alone what they mean.

553 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:14:06am

Feb. 3 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said he misspoke today when he said owners of recalled Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles should stop driving them until the company fixes a defect causing sudden acceleration.
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

(what time do the adults get back in charge!?!?!)

554 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:14:30am

re: #542 PT Barnum

But they don't like it...which is what started the whole Boxer Rebellion..

Have you seen the brief movies on that subject...the Boxer Shorts?

555 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:14:55am

re: #553 sattv4u2

Feb. 3 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said he misspoke today when he said owners of recalled Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles should stop driving them until the company fixes a defect causing sudden acceleration.
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

(what time do the adults get back in charge!?!?!)

He just misremembered!11!!
/dodging bullets

556 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:14:56am

I've fired my opening salvo, but must depart the field of battle for economic endeavors.

Although I do have a "Gone with the Wind" poem called Rhetorically Speaking that I'll post the next time an appropriate thread pops up..

You've been warned or given something to look forward to, depending on your feelings about my doggerel.

557 sattv4u2  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:15:07am

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

Have you seen the brief movies on that subject...the Boxer Shorts?

They were very smooth and silky!

558 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:15:28am

re: #533 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, maybe not.

Ludwig, thanks for the conversation and the learning, as always. I have to go teach some kids a different tradition--Shakespeare.

I think you are amazing too SFZ. Thank you as always.

559 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:15:41am

re: #555 Varek Raith

He just misremembered!11!!
/dodging bullets

W, is that you?

/Bush joke

560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:15:51am

re: #552 LudwigVanQuixote

You gotta admit, Ludie... there's a lot of holidays.
/

561 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:15:57am

re: #555 Varek Raith

He just misremembered!11!!
/dodging bullets

That's so last administration.

562 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:16:43am

re: #549 PT Barnum

Movie reference to a 80's film called _WarGames_. Long story short is that a military supercomputer gets the keys to the ICBM launch codes while playing a game called "Global Thermonuclear War" with a hacker (Matthew Broderick).

SPOILER below!

Right when it looks like the computer is going to *really* launch the missiles and trigger World War 3 they get it to run it's self-learning program. It then starts running all the different simulated nuclear strategies and simming them out. Being MAD, they basically escalate into the US and USSR nuking themselves and most of the rest of the world to bits. At the last moment everything stops and the computer comments, (via text I think, possibly via voice synthesizer.)

"An interesting game. Apparently the only way to win is not to play."

:)

I have to explain all that to the Magic players as well, though they generally are amused.

563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:17:19am

re: #558 LudwigVanQuixote

FWIW? I'd like to tell you that when you are in rational discussions? You a joy to read.

564 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:18:27am

re: #563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FWIW? I'd like to tell you that when you are in rational discussions? You're a joy to read.

typo... ACK!

565 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:19:03am

re: #562 oaktree

Movie reference to a 80's film called _WarGames_. Long story short is that a military supercomputer gets the keys to the ICBM launch codes while playing a game called "Global Thermonuclear War" with a hacker (Matthew Broderick).

SPOILER below!

Right when it looks like the computer is going to *really* launch the missiles and trigger World War 3 they get it to run it's self-learning program. It then starts running all the different simulated nuclear strategies and simming them out. Being MAD, they basically escalate into the US and USSR nuking themselves and most of the rest of the world to bits. At the last moment everything stops and the computer comments, (via text I think, possibly via voice synthesizer.)

"An interesting game. Apparently the only way to win is not to play."

:)

I have to explain all that to the Magic players as well, though they generally are amused.

I knew the reference, just didn't connect it to Magic, but now I understand...Pokemon, Yugiyoh, all the collectible games are like that.

My 8 year old is into Bakugan..which are kind of cool as a toy, but the game bewilders me.

566 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:19:06am

re: #548 Dark_Falcon

If everything in that article is true, he's more of a scumbag than I thought.

Manning the goddamn literature table.

I'd like confirmation, but he's not denying it yet.

567 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:19:17am

re: #560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You gotta admit, Ludie... there's a lot of holidays.
/

Very easy to remember: They tried to kill us, they failed, let's eat!

568 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:19:28am

re: #560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You gotta admit, Ludie... there's a lot of holidays.
/

Friends of ours worked for Intel in Israel for a couple of years. He was allowed to choose between the Jewish holidays and the "American" holidays for paid time off..

He took the jewish holidays because there are so many, and then used his vacation time for Christmas and other American holidays.

569 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:20:50am

You want an irrational discussion? Discuss the ending to Neon Genesis.
/:P

570 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:21:26am

re: #562 oaktree

Movie reference to a 80's film called _WarGames_. Long story short is that a military supercomputer gets the keys to the ICBM launch codes while playing a game called "Global Thermonuclear War" with a hacker (Matthew Broderick).

SPOILER below!

Right when it looks like the computer is going to *really* launch the missiles and trigger World War 3 they get it to run it's self-learning program. It then starts running all the different simulated nuclear strategies and simming them out. Being MAD, they basically escalate into the US and USSR nuking themselves and most of the rest of the world to bits. At the last moment everything stops and the computer comments, (via text I think, possibly via voice synthesizer.)

"An interesting game. Apparently the only way to win is not to play."

:)

I have to explain all that to the Magic players as well, though they generally are amused.

It actually use both methods. The line is:

"Strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:22:04am

re: #535 EmmmieG

BTW...Avatar ding.

572 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:22:29am

re: #540 RadicalModerate

The hit just keep on coming for James O'Keefe -

From Salon:

A photo of the righty stuntman at a white-nationalist confab illustrates a career marked by racial resentment

From the article:

According to One Peoples Project founder Daryle Jenkins, O'Keefe was manning the literature table at the gathering that brought together anti-Semites, professional racists and proponents of Aryanism. OPP covered the event at the time, sending a freelance photographer to document the gathering. Jenkins told me the table was filled with tracts from the white supremacist right, including two pseudo-academic publications that have called blacks and Latinos genetically inferior to whites: American Renaissance and the Occidental Quarterly. The leading speaker was Jared Taylor, founder of the white nationalist group American Renaissance. "We can say for certain that James O'Keefe was at the 2006 meeting with Jared Taylor. He has absolutely no way of denying that," Jenkins said. O'Keefe's attorney did not respond to a request for comment on his client's role in the conference.
...
By O’Keefe’s own account, his racial troubles became acute when he entered the multicultural atmosphere of Rutgers University’s dormitory system. In an online diary that has since been scrubbed from the Web (but not before being captured on Daily Kos), he wrote that he was forced to live on an all-black dormitory floor after refusing to live with the gay roommate he was initially assigned. O’Keefe claimed his next roommate was “an Indian midget ... who smelled like shit.” The roommate left, however, and was replaced by “a greek kid.” The new roommate complained to a residential administrator that O’Keefe had called his neighbors “ni**ers,” prompting the school to expel him from the dorm. He rejected the accusation as a “complete lie,” writing, “I was lead out of the room crying and screaming at him and my situation, no friends, no one one [sic] to talk to, forced to go in front of a black man, Dean Tolbert, to defend myself and help explain that I did not call anyone any names.”

I'm currently wait-and-see on this story because of how the supporting photographic evidence is presented. For whatever reason both Salon and the source website aren't including most of the image. Salon includes a bizarre composite with the only real parts being O'Keefe's head and neck (with his clothing drawn on, and a pasted in American Renaissance website as the background) while the website that claims to be the source of the photo has everything but O'Keefe cropped out.

That online diary part sounds pretty damning though -- I'm going to go see if I can find it on Kos.

573 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:23:00am

Reading the thread and have only one comment -

In the last few years I have settled on having very little respect for orthodoxies. That will offend many people, but I choose to be honest. i posted some time ago that I have become an a-culturalist.

As Richard Rorty was able to succinctly point out - all cultures have rules designed to simultaneously include and exclude. All cultures therefore define "the other".

While that is unavoidable and not in itself bad, when an orthodoxy takes hold and demands obedience to a set of rules regardless of a situation of an individual or (more importantly) the intentions of that individual, it transforms from a benign social mechanism into an oppressive force with the oppression proportionate to the zeal with which the orthodoxy is enforced.

That does not make me a multi-culturalist in which a false homage is paid to the "richness" and "beauty" of any and all cultures (a situation where the multi-culturalist reinforces the mechanisms of exclusion that s/he has convinced him/herself they are defeating). Instead i simply try to look at cultures as what they are - constructs for norm keeping which, in an industrial society with vast communications capabilities, becomes progressively less necessary.

There. I said it.

574 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:23:04am

Obdicut, can you point me to the articles about alternative payment models? I'm curious to know more. I looked up Gawande, but hoping you can point me in a more specific direction.

575 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:23:52am

re: #552 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, on the last part: it may be that the reason they can't say a prayer in Hebrew or know the holidays is that they never felt fully embraced by the Jewish faith or comfortable with their specific role in it. It may be that what they're expressing is a sadness contorted into critique.

I know a friend of mine's daughter is going through that phase right now, where she'll either accept that she has a specific, female-oriented role in terms of Jewish faith or she'll reject the faith.

Of course, I'm a Jewish atheist who was raised Catholic, my grandmother denied she was Jewish and came from a long line of crypto-Jews, and my grandfather came from a semi-Crypto carribean Sephardic tradition, so my perspective on Jewish life and faith is from a very warped angle.

576 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:24:05am

Capitalism 1; Stupid hippies 0

[Link: reason.com...]


The (boring) interview is here. But it is worth checking out just to see erstwhile revolutionaries Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn ("Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson!"), haters of sterile corporations and their bourgeois conformist customers, trudging towards their Hyde Park brownstone carrying a tray of Starbucks:

577 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:24:23am

re: #565 PT Barnum

Yes. And the CCG players who do not catch the reference get it as well once it's explained.

I stick to regular board games for the most part. Add the occasional expansion, but definitely not caught up in anything that keeps generating additional material like the CCGs. And at this point my buying has slumped off since I'm more willing to play the games in my current collection than to keep adding newer games that will result in fewer plays all round.

And I'll have to get an upgraded desktop before I start dabbling in computer games beyond firing up Stars! or Steel Panthers for an evening or two.

578 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:24:36am

re: #571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW...Avatar ding.

I haven't seen Avatar yet...does the boat sink in the end?

579 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:25:21am

re: #569 Varek Raith

You want an irrational discussion? Discuss the ending to Neon Genesis.
/:P

Varek, you might want to take a trip to Chicago in May. There's a large anime event here called ACEN running on the 14-16th of May. It does feature Battletech gaming, so I'll likely be there.

580 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:25:36am

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

thanks for the correction. I'll incorporate it the next time I need to use the line. :)

581 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:25:42am

re: #574 PT Barnum

He doesn't go into the alternatives in great detail, but these are good articles to scratch the surface:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

And his book, Better, does a (groan) better job of it.

582 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:25:58am

Anyone else having an issue with the site being incredibly slow or is it just me?

583 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:26:02am

re: #577 oaktree

Yes. And the CCG players who do not catch the reference get it as well once it's explained.

I stick to regular board games for the most part. Add the occasional expansion, but definitely not caught up in anything that keeps generating additional material like the CCGs. And at this point my buying has slumped off since I'm more willing to play the games in my current collection than to keep adding newer games that will result in fewer plays all round.

And I'll have to get an upgraded desktop before I start dabbling in computer games beyond firing up Stars! or Steel Panthers for an evening or two.

I'm more of an RPG gamer so I play more of the MMORPGS (although not so much anymore) but I really miss the fun of paper and pencil RPGs..I was a Dungeon Master mostly..I miss the improvisational nature of the in person experience.

584 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:26:57am

re: #567 Alouette

Very easy to remember: They tried to kill us, they failed, let's eat!

Except for they tried to kill us, they got a lot of us, they burnt down the Bais HaMikdash, let's fast.

585 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:27:00am

re: #582 RogueOne

I have issues every few days. Every time I do, when I ask, no one else is.

I'm having no issue today. It seems random, and I think it may have to do with other stuff going on on the machine at the same time. Dunno.

586 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:27:02am

re: #579 Dark_Falcon

Varek, you might want to take a trip to Chicago in May. There's a large anime event here called ACEN running on the 14-16th of May. It does feature Battletech gaming, so I'll likely be there.

It'll be a few years, probably. Though, I'll certainly consider it!
/damn, need to win the lottery, or some such....rob a bank???
:)

587 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:27:47am

re: #573 karmic_inquisitor

when an orthodoxy takes hold and demands obedience to a set of rules regardless of a situation of an individual or (more importantly) the intentions of that individual, it transforms from a benign social mechanism into an oppressive force

Wow.

Religious tradition turned into a hammer has never been a good thing.

588 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:28:23am

Okay..I'm gonna go...I mean it this time!

589 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:28:53am

Nothing more strangely indicates an enormous and silent evil of modern society than the extraordinary use which is made nowadays of the word “orthodox.” In former days the heretic was proud of not being a heretic. It was the kingdoms of the world and the police and the judges who were heretics. He was orthodox. He had no pride in having rebelled against them; they had rebelled against him. The armies with their cruel security, the kings with their cold faces, the decorous processes of State, the reasonable processes of law—all these like sheep had gone astray. The man was proud of being orthodox, was proud of being right. If he stood alone in a howling wilderness he was more than a man; he was a church. He was the centre of the universe; it was round him that the stars swung. All the tortures torn out of forgotten hells could not make him admit that he was heretical. But a few modern phrases have made him boast of it. He says, with a conscious laugh, “I suppose I am very heretical,” and looks round for applause. The word “heresy” not only means no longer being wrong; it practically means being clear-headed and courageous. The word “orthodoxy” not only no longer means being right; it practically means being wrong. All this can mean one thing, and one thing only. It means that people care less for whether they are philosophically right. For obviously a man ought to confess himself crazy before he confesses himself heretical. The Bohemian, with a red tie, ought to pique himself on his orthodoxy. The dynamiter, laying a bomb, ought to feel that, whatever else he is, at least he is orthodox.
-- G. K. Chesterton, Heretics, 1905

590 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:28:54am

re: #588 PT Barnum

Okay..I'm gonna go...I mean it this time!

Gonna hold your breath, as well????
///:P

591 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:29:55am

re: #575 Obdicut

Well, on the last part: it may be that the reason they can't say a prayer in Hebrew or know the holidays is that they never felt fully embraced by the Jewish faith or comfortable with their specific role in it. It may be that what they're expressing is a sadness contorted into critique.

I know a friend of mine's daughter is going through that phase right now, where she'll either accept that she has a specific, female-oriented role in terms of Jewish faith or she'll reject the faith.

Of course, I'm a Jewish atheist who was raised Catholic, my grandmother denied she was Jewish and came from a long line of crypto-Jews, and my grandfather came from a semi-Crypto carribean Sephardic tradition, so my perspective on Jewish life and faith is from a very warped angle.

I'm always a little sad to regard non-believing Jews; it's such a wonderful heritage to have been born into.

592 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:30:30am

re: #563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FWIW? I'd like to tell you that when you are in rational discussions? You a joy to read.

Go figure, I am like that when not getting attacked on a pile on...

593 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:31:49am

re: #592 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I think you're swell.

594 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:32:29am
595 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:32:43am

re: #591 The Sanity Inspector

Yeah, me too. I love even the small scraps of Jewish culture-- even as distorted as it is in far-flung Sephardim, crypto traditions-- that I inherited.

I have the letter my grandfather wrote to my grandmother on the day that Hitler died-- or the day he found out, rather. It's epic.

596 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:33:17am

re: #552 LudwigVanQuixote

Telling someone they are not qualified to discuss the merits of a belief system with which they are familiar, merely because they do not happen to fully subscribe to it, is in my view ignorant.

597 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:15am

Ok, this is BS. Indianapolis Public Schools were going to start on a 2 hour delay Monday because of the late start of the Super Bowl on Sunday. The state just stepped in and told them to forget it:

[Link: www.indystar.com...]


State officials have warned Indianapolis Public Schools officials that it cannot delay classes for two hours on the Monday after the Super Bowl and still count it as a full day of class.

IPS announced the delay this week in an attempt to prevent a recurrence of 2007's Super Bowl, when so many bus drivers called in sick on Monday that the district had to cancel classes.


598 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:15am

re: #594 lawhawk

Grrr... major snowfall expected this weekend in the NE Corridor (DC to NYC). WooT!

Wheee!
:)

599 Diane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:31am

Good for the brave and beautiful pelican, he knows nothing about the latest terrorist threat.

Fun image! Thx.

600 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:43am

re: #594 lawhawk

yay

601 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:49am

re: #592 LudwigVanQuixote

Go figure, I am like that when not getting attacked on a pile on...

We all turn mean when we get gang-tackled, even if (like idioma but not like you) the gang-tackle is deserved. You can't expect people to just keeep being friendly and polite while they're getting downdinged and told off.

602 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:34:58am

re: #584 LudwigVanQuixote

Except for they tried to kill us, they got a lot of us, they burnt down the Bais HaMikdash, let's fast.

Yeah, but there's always a bunch of eating after the fast.

I could never understand why it's called a fast, when it goes by so slow.

603 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:35:48am

re: #572 simoom

Not really what I was after, but this O'Keefe college stunt was pretty weird. From a Politico article about a week ago:

Founded in 1979 by veteran Republican activist Morton Blackwell, the Leadership Institute has worked with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, Karl Rove and Grover Norquist. The group raked in $6.6 million in 2008, according to its most recent publicly available IRS filings, which doesn’t list donors.

“What we teach is to use creative and imaginative ways to make your points, to reveal what we think is political correctness run amuck, liberal hypocrisy and double standards” on left-leaning college campuses, said Sutton, who supervised O’Keefe at the institute until O’Keefe was asked to leave because his investigative work could interfere with the Institute’s Internal Revenue Service standing.

Sutton said the Institute suggested to O’Keefe that he ask Rutgers officials to banish the breakfast cereal Lucky Charms from campus dining halls because it was offensive to Irish American students. O’Keefe took the advice a step further and video recorded the meeting, posting it on YouTube, which Sutton said was an example of him pushing the envelope.

604 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:35:48am

re: #589 The Sanity Inspector


If that which was once heresy becomes orthodox (such as that which came after Martin Luther) then I'd agree.

For sake of definitions, here is one from one of the many online dictionaries -

or·tho·dox (ôrth-dks)
adj.
1. Adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion.
2. Adhering to the Christian faith as expressed in the early Christian ecumenical creeds.
3. Orthodox
a. Of or relating to any of the churches or rites of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
b. Of or relating to Orthodox Judaism.
4. Adhering to what is commonly accepted, customary, or traditional: an orthodox view of world affairs.
n.
1. One that is orthodox.
2. Orthodox A member of an Eastern Orthodox church.

I suppose my use of orthodoxy should be clarified - I don't use the term exclusive to religion but more in the context of the 4th definition above.

605 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:41:45am

re: #602 Alouette

Yeah, but there's always a bunch of eating after the fast.

I could never understand why it's called a fast, when it goes by so slow.

It's from the German "Fasten", meaning "to starve".

606 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:42:01am

re: #575 Obdicut

Well, on the last part: it may be that the reason they can't say a prayer in Hebrew or know the holidays is that they never felt fully embraced by the Jewish faith or comfortable with their specific role in it. It may be that what they're expressing is a sadness contorted into critique.

I know a friend of mine's daughter is going through that phase right now, where she'll either accept that she has a specific, female-oriented role in terms of Jewish faith or she'll reject the faith.

Of course, I'm a Jewish atheist who was raised Catholic, my grandmother denied she was Jewish and came from a long line of crypto-Jews, and my grandfather came from a semi-Crypto carribean Sephardic tradition, so my perspective on Jewish life and faith is from a very warped angle.

Ob, you raise an amazingly valid point.

I do not deny that the observant community has failed the rest of the Jewish worlds tremendously by not reaching out enough.

It is one thing to know something about the Tradition and say it is not for you. That is obviously a personal choice and it is not my place to judge you if you decide that.

However, before that call is made, I think many owe it to themselves to actually find out what the Tradition is and says. So many views of it in the non observant community are just false. They are ultimately based on hearsay in many cases. The hearsay ranges from assuming the tradition is anti-woman (clearly they never read ayshet chaiyel) to mistaking a glance through a Gideon Bible as Torah study to whatever crazy things they have heard about those orthodox - and of course the story they heard is an inflated one by a crazy fringe group. This is compounded by a smug sense that being observant must be backwards and that only unthinking religious cretins ever are religious. It is made worse by a notion that the non-observant Jew already knows everything about it anyway.

The reality is that the Tradition is truly one in the books. You can dedicate your whole life to studying it and never make an end. We have over three thousand years of writing stuff down and debating it and thinking it over.

The other big issue is the Holocaust and Israel. Jewish identity is too often based on a certain trauma caused by thinking about the Holocaust or trying to replace the identity with a certain love of Israeli issues.

Fear and loathing is from the Second World War is nothing to hang a positive Jewish identity on and however much I love Israel, and I do, I am an American.

However, there is a beautiful, brilliant and philosophical Tradition that I would put up against anyone else's to be explored. We have philosophers that can hang with Plato. We have mysteries as deep as mystical as those in Buddism. Unfortunately we do not tell other Jews about that enough.

We don't give them teh real meat an bones of why bother.

This is a long way of saying if you have not looked into it, it is yours and it is waiting for you to explore. If you do not want it, you do not have to keep it. But it is yours. And you should look at it before discounting it.

607 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:43:09am

re: #596 Spare O'Lake

Telling someone they are not qualified to discuss the merits of a belief system with which they are familiar, merely because they do not happen to fully subscribe to it, is in my view ignorant.

Unless you practice it you can not be familiar with it. Your baseless misunderstanding of things you know nothing of is what is ignorant.

608 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:45:19am

Colin Powell gives McCain the green light to support repealing DADT

The question now is, will McCain continue to cower before the teabaggers, or will he get all 'mavericky' and support the military leaders and ex-military leaders like Powell?

609 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:46:06am

re: #596 Spare O'Lake

Please don't go there, Spare. Baiting Ludwig like that is extremely unwise. You know he's going to come out swinging, so why do it?

610 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:46:19am

re: #597 RogueOne

Ok, this is BS. Indianapolis Public Schools were going to start on a 2 hour delay Monday because of the late start of the Super Bowl on Sunday. The state just stepped in and told them to forget it:

[Link: www.indystar.com...]

It's only a freakin' game.

Go Saints!

611 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:47:44am

re: #608 darthstar

Colin Powell gives McCain the green light to support repealing DADT

The question now is, will McCain continue to cower before the teabaggers, or will he get all 'mavericky' and support the military leaders and ex-military leaders like Powell?

Please repost that on the next thread.

612 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:49:04am

Against accepted "conventional wisdom" among progressives-

(CNN) -- An abstinence-only education program is more effective than other initiatives at keeping sixth- and seventh-graders from having sex within a two-year period, according to a study described by some as a landmark.

The study, published in the current issue of the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine, indicated that about one-third of the preteens and their young teen classmates who received an eight-hour abstinence lesson had sexual intercourse within two years of the class.

By comparison, more than half of the students who were taught about safe sex and condom use reported having intercourse by the two-year mark, and more than 40 percent of students who received either an eight- or 12-hour lesson incorporating both abstinence education and safe sex reported having sex at two years.

Among students who received instruction on overall good health, but not having to do with sex directly, nearly 47 percent had sexual activity in the two years after the class.
SNIP

613 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:49:38am

re: #607 LudwigVanQuixote

Unless you practice it you can not be familiar with it. Your baseless misunderstanding of things you know nothing of is what is ignorant.

Do you go to shul twice daily?
Do you lay tefillin daily?
Do you ever turn on a light or drive on Shabbos?
How perfect is your pedigree, chaver?

614 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:50:55am

For crying out loud, don't start this shit again.
:eyeroll:

615 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:52:01am

re: #609 Dark_Falcon

Please don't go there, Spare. Baiting Ludwig like that is extremely unwise. You know he's going to come out swinging, so why do it?

I have no patience for hypocritical elitism.
Fine, I'll just log off.
BBL

616 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:52:15am

re: #613 Spare O'Lake

Do you go to shul twice daily?
Do you lay tefillin daily?
Do you ever turn on a light or drive on Shabbos?
How perfect is your pedigree, chaver?

That is rather perjorative and you know it. The answer is I do pray twice daily, I do lay tefillin and I keep Shabbos. What? Have you seen me here on a Friday night... ever? I also set aside time for study.

As to pedigrees my mother is a Jew. None other is needed.

617 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:52:42am

re: #615 Spare O'Lake

I have no patience for hypocritical elitism.
Fine, I'll just log off.
BBL

Well that is charming...

618 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:58:07am

re: #606 LudwigVanQuixote

Beautifully said, Ludwig. I include some very wise rabbis among my best friends, by the way, and we are able to talk about man, and right and wrong, and wisdom, and all sorts of things without my atheism harming the conversation in every way.

Jewish religious tradition is probably the most open to ideas from pure philosophy, and it's one reason, I believe, it's lasted so long.

619 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:01:14am

re: #618 Obdicut

Beautifully said, Ludwig. I include some very wise rabbis among my best friends, by the way, and we are able to talk about man, and right and wrong, and wisdom, and all sorts of things without my atheism harming the conversation in every way.

Jewish religious tradition is probably the most open to ideas from pure philosophy, and it's one reason, I believe, it's lasted so long.

Well said yourself. I have some dear friends who are rabbis too...

620 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:02:36am

re: #593 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, I think you're swell.

Thank FBV, I am sorry I missed that post :)

621 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:03:25am

re: #594 lawhawk

Grrr... major snowfall expected this weekend in the NE Corridor (DC to NYC). WooT!

We got a few inches last night, but it warmed up today and it's melting. I actually got into work early.

I still need to figure out what I'm going to grill Sunday (most likely chicken) and go to the grocery store before the next snow.

622 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:12:21am

re: #610 darthstar

It's only a freakin' game.

Go Saints!

U Suck!//

623 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:25:37am

Well I hopscotched from a piece about the people who were trying to take the "orphans" out of Haiti to a webiste about the orphan trains of the US. CNN had a piece on babylifts, but they left this one out, and it was huge.

If you've never heard of it, I would recomment learning a little; it's an important part of the history of the US.

624 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:42:16am

Here's an interesting life story, especially in context of what has been discussed in this thread...

[Link: www.orphantraindepot.com...]

She would be considered Jewish, right?

625 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:46:13am

re: #624 EmmmieG

Yes.

626 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:50:46am

re: #624 EmmmieG

Here's an interesting life story, especially in context of what has been discussed in this thread...

[Link: www.orphantraindepot.com...]

She would be considered Jewish, right?

Yes for sure.

627 Bingo.Long  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:52:16am

Awesome fucking picture, CJ. Love pelicans.

628 ryannon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:54:59am

re: #47 The Curmudgeon

At last, a pelican! This blog is finally showing some class.

Image: funny-pictures-scary-pelican-looks-at-bucket-theft-suspects.jpg

629 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:55:18am

re: #526 Obdicut

There isn't such a situation. But they may never know it, and they may not be able to afford it. Having the choice to do something you can't actually do is not really having a choice. They paid for insurance to pay for their medical care. If they don't take the drug mandated by the formulary, they have to pay full price for it while still paying for their insurance. Most people won't do that, or, if they do-- what good is their insurance to them in that transaction?
...
What do you think of a switch from the fee-for-service/procedure payment model we have now, to one of the different forms? I assume you've read Gawande on the topic?That I can completely agree with, and I am strongly for measures such as giving more authority and responsibility to nurses and physicans assistants to handle front-line care that can swamp doctors.

What do you think of a switch from the fee-for-service/procedure payment model we have now, to one of the different forms? I assume you've read Gawande on the topic?

First part: in the vast majority of cases (which we must restrict ourselves to, lest we lose the discussion in myriad exceptional cases), the first few tiers of a formulary dictate the co-pay, with the last tier reserved for a very large co-pay or a percentage of the drug's cost because the drug is exceedingly expensive, and usually quite new. I am saying that although there surely exist a few cases where only the last-tier drug is going to work well for a patient, those cases are the exception and not a full-scale travesty to serve as the foundation for a major overhaul of the system. What I would like to see overhauled is the propensity for certain companies to allow other countries to strong-arm lower prices, whereby the company turns around and charges US customers too much. Finally some regulation that you and I might agree on! (mandating that pharmaceuticals can't charge other countries less than they charge US consumers, or something to that effect)

Second part: I think there's a lot of sensibility in Gawande's "build on the existing" philosophy. In short, though, i think you remember a cornerstone of my stance...whether we introduce a public option or simply improve people's ability to purchase and portage their coverage across state lines, I think that we need to learn to be better consumers of health care. I think that twelve large premiums are better spent as one lump sum in an account set aside for basic medical expenses, with a much cheaper policy to cover catastrophic events.

630 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:57:11am

re: #613 Spare O'Lake

Do you go to shul twice daily?
Do you lay tefillin daily?
Do you ever turn on a light or drive on Shabbos?
How perfect is your pedigree, chaver?

That was really unkind and uncalled for :(

631 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:59:23am

re: #629 Aceofwhat?

I disagree that it's only a 'few cases' where the formulary acts to delay efficacious treatment, but since that's very protected information, I'm not aware of any large study that would decide the argument factually.

What I would like to see overhauled is the propensity for certain companies to allow other countries to strong-arm lower prices, whereby the company turns around and charges US customers too much. Finally some regulation that you and I might agree on! (mandating that pharmaceuticals can't charge other countries less than they charge US consumers, or something to that effect)

And yes, this I'm in total agreement with-- though you could achieve the same benefit by allowing the US government to bargain collectively with them in the same manner as other countries.

Second part: I think there's a lot of sensibility in Gawande's "build on the existing" philosophy. In short, though, i think you remember a cornerstone of my stance...whether we introduce a public option or simply improve people's ability to purchase and portage their coverage across state lines, I think that we need to learn to be better consumers of health care. I think that twelve large premiums are better spent as one lump sum in an account set aside for basic medical expenses, with a much cheaper policy to cover catastrophic events.

I can agree with that-- it sounds like the Singapore plan, kind of, but I think that there are a lot of other things that would have to be in place as well. I think that it's not just on the customers, but also on the doctors to change their culture in some places.

Anyway, let's not whip out our arguments-from-authority again. I had difficulty getting mine back into my pants.

632 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:00:37pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

I just wanted to say one thing...You know, I love ya Ludwig. You're a special person and I miss you when you're not around.

633 Bingo.Long  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:03:39pm

re: #23 Cato the Elder

"The fundies say that it's no sin to be gay, it's only wrong to act that way."

Re your hilarious "stupidity" penalties [but could Texas even enact such penalties with such a high stupidity quotient in their state control mechanisms?], definitely the fundy who came up with this one needs some sort of right-brain/left-brain correlation: obviously, if one is gay, one is no different than one who is [i.e.] black, & punishing gay behaviour would thus be no different than punishing "black" behaviour, whatever the hell that might be. Note, of course, that either way it would still be illegal to be Indian in the USA.

634 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:08:45pm

re: #631 Obdicut

Anyway, let's not whip out our arguments-from-authority again. I had difficulty getting mine back into my pants.

That last part = you win.

635 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #633 Bingo.Long

"The fundies say that it's no sin to be gay, it's only wrong to act that way."

Re your hilarious "stupidity" penalties [but could Texas even enact such penalties with such a high stupidity quotient in their state control mechanisms?], definitely the fundy who came up with this one needs some sort of right-brain/left-brain correlation: obviously, if one is gay, one is no different than one who is [i.e.] black, & punishing gay behaviour would thus be no different than punishing "black" behaviour, whatever the hell that might be. Note, of course, that either way it would still be illegal to be Indian in the USA.

Careful. Some things are more inflammatory to a minority than equating them with gay, but not many. At least someone who is gay can keep it on the down-low should they feel so inclined. You can't not be black, even for one minute.

636 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:12:42pm

re: #612 Rightwingconspirator

Against accepted "conventional wisdom" among progressives-

(CNN) -- An abstinence-only education program is more effective than other initiatives at keeping sixth- and seventh-graders from having sex within a two-year period, according to a study described by some as a landmark.

The study, published in the current issue of the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine, indicated that about one-third of the preteens and their young teen classmates who received an eight-hour abstinence lesson had sexual intercourse within two years of the class.

By comparison, more than half of the students who were taught about safe sex and condom use reported having intercourse by the two-year mark, and more than 40 percent of students who received either an eight- or 12-hour lesson incorporating both abstinence education and safe sex reported having sex at two years.

Among students who received instruction on overall good health, but not having to do with sex directly, nearly 47 percent had sexual activity in the two years after the class.
SNIP

veeerrry interesting...

637 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:51:37pm

re: #632 marjoriemoon

I just wanted to say one thing...You know, I love ya Ludwig. You're a special person and I miss you when you're not around.

Hey thanks. I adore you and SFZ too.

638 Jerusalemyte  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 12:35:25am

FYI

The Pelican is the state bird of Louisiana!!


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