Colin Powell Supports Repealing DADT

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell has changed his opinion on allowing gays to serve openly in the military, and said today that he favors repeal of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.’

“In the almost 17 years since the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ legislation was passed, attitudes and circumstances have changed,” General Powell said in a statement issued by his office. He added: “I fully support the new approach presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee this week by Secretary of Defense Gates and Admiral Mullen.”

“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was one of the craziest pieces of legislation ever passed in America; it put the US government in the bizarre position of encouraging people to conceal their sexual orientation. As long as they didn’t tell the truth, they wouldn’t suffer any punishment. That’s simply a perversion of the principles of good governance.

The only positive aspect of this weird law is that it served as a stepping stone to bring the US to a point where we might be ready to overcome the bigotry of the past and treat people as individuals instead of stereotypes. The only criteria for serving in the military should be whether you can do the job well.

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187 comments
1 pharmmajor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:39:22am

Admittedly, I would like to see gay marriage and adoption legalized before DADT is repealed, but that's just me. Hopefully we can get rid of all these stupid restrictions in one fell swoop.

2 brandon13  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:42:35am

It's amazing to me that something that just seems to make so much sense was socially unacceptable just within the past couple of decades.

3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:43:42am

I've never been in the military, but in my opinion?

A bad ass gay Marine can kick as much ass as a bad ass straight Marine.

They can kick ass? Send them out to kick asses.

4 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:44:01am

As a former Army Officer with several successful commands, so do I.

Troops are basically fair minded people. We need as many of the best people we can field and anyone willing to bleed for this country should have the opportunity to serve.

I have valued my service all of my life and look back on it fondly and would not want to deny that to someone because of what he/she does in his/her bedroom.

5 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:44:18am
At the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing today on the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) expressed his concern that repealing the rule would pave the way for allowing "alcohol use, adultery, fraternization, and body art" in the military.

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

6 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:45:35am

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

Heh, Chambliss is grasping at phantom straws.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #5 abbyadams

Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)

His middle name should be something like Bouregard...

8 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:46:42am

I stood in our kitchen last night making dinner with some lesbian friends. While our kids careened around the house, we listened to Duncan Hunter do his troglodyte best to make the case for keeping DADT. One of our friends shook her head and said "it will be nice when we can be treated like the adults we are instead of like children at the table, asking permission to go to the bathroom."

9 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:46:56am

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Beauregard Jackson Pickett Burnsides.

10 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:47:25am

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

Good afternoon, Captain Renault. ;)

11 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:47:39am

I wonder if some of those who were kicked out will be let back in. I wonder how many want to get back in.

12 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:48:14am

I prefer Don't ask, don't kill. But that's because I'm a pacifist. That said, I think DADT is an embarrassment to this country, and it should be repealed.

13 Kragar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:48:16am

re: #9 abbyadams

Beauregard Jackson Pickett Burnsides.

Esquire the Third

14 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:48:24am
15 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:48:26am

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

I was absolutely sure that this crowd o' reptiles would get the reference.

16 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:49:21am

re: #5 abbyadams

Tattoos? Here's the Marine Corps tattoo policy:

Memo to Chambliss: Tattoos are allowed with restrictions, and we've already got a policy on body art in the Marine Corps (complete with regulations and grandfathering clauses).

17 Kragar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:49:45am

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

And when I say there was no cannibalism, I mean there was some.

18 lawhawk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:50:26am

re: #11 wrenchwench

Particularly those who were interpreters who were (and remain) in short supply.

19 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:50:49am

re: #9 abbyadams

Beauregard Jackson Pickett Burnsides.

You've got one excellent general in that group, one decent one, one competent one, and one Goat who didn't deserve his stars.

20 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:51:35am

re: #17 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Monty Python upding!

21 keloyd  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:51:53am

re: #9 abbyadams

Still, he's no Sir Manley Power.

22 political lunatic  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:51:58am

"We should listen to our generals and do what they ask for- but only when either a Republican administration is in power or our Commander-in-Chief disagrees with the generals." -John McCain's stance on DADT in one easy sentence. *groans* Bleeping hypocrites.

23 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:52:49am

Let's not forget Duncan Hunter's dire warning from NPR yesterday:

Interviewer: Today we turn to California Congressman Duncan Hunter. He's a Republican, and a former U.S. Marine who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. Congressman Hunter, welcome to the program.

Rep. Duncan Hunter: Great to be with you.

Interviewer: You are not in favor of repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Why not?

Rep. Duncan Hunter: No, because I think that it's bad for the cohesiveness and the unity of the military units. And, especially for those in close combat -- in close quarters -- in country right now. It's not the time to do it. I think the military is not civilian life. I think the folks who have been in the military, that have been in those very close situations with each other -- there has to be a special bond there. I think that bond is broken if you open up the military to transgenders; to hermaphrodites; to gays and lesbians.

Interviewer: Transgenders and hermaphrodites. (the shock in her voice was hilarious...it was more an instinctive repeating to clarify she heard right)

Rep. Duncan Hunter: That's going to be part of this whole thing. It's not just gays and lesbians, it's the whole gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual community. If you're going to let anybody in, no matter what preference -- what sexual preference -- they have, that means the military is going to probably let everybody in. It's going to be like civilian life. And, I think that would be detrimental for the military.

24 Kragar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:54:35am

When I was in the Marines, I knew a few people who I didn't ask, and they didn't tell, but we all knew about. The only ones I had a problem with were the ones who were fuckups. Hell, one of the best SNCO's I ever served with was a lesbian.

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:54:49am

Good on Powell. He is a Republican I could vote for. It is too bad he will never run and that his party rejected him.

26 RadicalModerate  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:54:52am

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Chambliss said that? I guess after questioning the patriotism of a Vietnam War veteran who had three limbs blown off, there aren't too many lines that he isn't willing to cross.

27 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:54:55am

Well said, Charles.

It's hard for me to deal with the Democrat's indifference to gay rights most of the time. Dealing with the GOP's outright hostility in many cases is just anger-making.

28 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:55:25am

re: #9 abbyadams

Only problem with that is that Burnsides was a Union general. Carpetbagger!

/

29 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:55:27am

re: #23 darthstar

Hermaphrodites? Methinks Hunter has been watching too much hentai, tsk tsk.
/Acidic sarc

30 political lunatic  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:55:32am

re: #23 darthstar

The bigots are really going to be coming out of the woodwork now. I shudder to think what they'll say if the SCOTUS takes the Prop 8 trial and uses it to legalize gay marriage in the US.

31 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:55:38am

re: #21 keloyd

Still, he's no Sir Manley Power.

His grandson was also a brave officer. He took five destroyers on a torpedo run against an IJN heavy cruiser. That was a gutsy move and the DD sank the cruiser.

32 Ericus58  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:55:38am

As I've previously posted on this matter:

"Being retired USN, I feel I can speak with knowledge and experience to the core idiot beliefs of this tool and anyone else like-minded.
I worked for, with and lead gay service members.
There was no "mystery" of their sexual preference - both male and female.
I never witnessed or experienced anyone trying to get into my knickers. Most served with the integrity and honor that being in the US military required. As in real life, a persons character is not dependent upon their sexual orientation but on their choices and acts.

I reject any attempt by any group to side-line the gay community in our armed forces, and find it beyond the pale."

I'm very much in favor of lifting this policy. I support the current Military leadership's position.

33 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:56:00am

That is absolutely well said Charles. I could not agree more.

34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:56:30am

re: #29 Varek Raith

You watch hermaphrodidic hentai?

Is Hermaphrodidic a word?

anyway//

35 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:56:52am

Adm. Mullen yesterday:

MULLEN: Mr. Chairman, speaking for myself and myself only, it is my personal belief that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly would be the right thing to do. No matter how I look at this issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy that forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens. For me, personally, it comes down to integrity -- theirs as individuals, and ours as an institution.

I also believe that the great young men and women of our military can and would accommodate such a change. I never underestimate their ability to adapt.

And later in response to Sen. Sessions:

Sen. Sessions, I think it is approximately correct, but it does, again, go to a fundamental principle with me, which is, everybody counts. And part of the struggle back to the institutional integrity aspect of this --

SESSIONS: I know, I'm privy to your views --

MULLEN: -- and putting individuals in a position that every single day, they wonder whether today is going to be the day, and devaluing them in that regard just is inconsistent with us as an institution. I have served with homosexuals since 1968. Sen. McCain spoke to that in his statement. Everybody in the military has. And we understand that. So it is a number of things which cumulatively, for me personally, get me to this position.


[Link: tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...] (transcript excerpts from here)
36 Baier  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:57:00am

re: #27 Obdicut

Well said, Charles.

It's hard for me to deal with the Democrat's indifference to gay rights most of the time. Dealing with the GOP's outright hostility in many cases is just anger-making.

Yeah, what's better? The lack of political courage or the inability to tell right from wrong.

37 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:58:12am

re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You watch hermaphrodidic hentai?

Is Hermaphrodidic a word?

anyway//

Lol, nope. But, you can't be a huge anime fan and not know of all of its...more...unusual aspects.
:)

38 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:59:04am

re: #23 darthstar

Rep. Duncan Hunter: That's going to be part of this whole thing. It's not just gays and lesbians, it's the whole gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual community. If you're going to let anybody in, no matter what preference -- what sexual preference -- they have, that means the military is going to probably let everybody in. It's going to be like civilian life.

Except for the part about giving up your civil rights, boot camp, following orders, and a few other details.

Exclusivity is by merit in the military. That won't change. Hunter will have to find some other way to enjoy exclusivity. Oh, wait. Better not open that can of worms....

39 keloyd  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:59:18am

DADT seems substantially less secure than an outright ban or joining the 31 countries who seem to make open gays in the military work.

People with security clearances must be as pure as Caesar's wife. Well maybe not Caesar's wife, but at least Nixon's wife. In my personal (2nd hand) experience, they go over with a fine toothed comb whether you gamble much, drink too much, where your college age kids go for vacation, if you have a messy divorce, your fault or not, etc. Being a closeted homosexual would be 10x more interesting to enemy agents looking to blackmail you into some shenanigans.

In the military, I can imagine 100 scenarios, at every level of service, even with some corporal guarding something - 'leave the back gate unlocked or take your cigarette break at exactly 0200 hrs or we release the photos'...

I can't cite this, but I happen to know - nearly all Soviet spying in the US in 30 years has been motivated by cash or blackmail, never ideology.

40 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 10:59:45am

re: #23 darthstar

In Duncans defense, when he said unit, he thought he was talking about penis'. No one likes an non-cohesive penis, hanging around the shower, getting all hard from the firm, hot, soapy men. Rubbing themselves, and snapping towels at each others firm buttocks.

Let's here it for unit cohesion! A man for each boner, a boner for each man.

41 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:01:23am

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

I'd like to take this moment to recommend to you the very archaic and very enjoyable book, Sea Captain from Salem. It's the Johnny Tremaine of nautical books. And the captain is a Quaker named Peace-of-God Manly.

42 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:01:42am

It will be fun, in a macabre kind of way, to see what foolishness will escape Pat Robertson's lips in response to a repeal of DADT. Will the military be making a deal with the devil or will it be the consequence of one made long ago, perhaps by General Grant to gain Lee's surrender (true story)?

It is a foregone conclusion that the religious reich right as a whole will go absolutely apeshit, citing the repeal as the the vilest act yet by the evil Kenyan Marxist saboteur Obama and his ACORN militia-minions.

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:02:03am

re: #37 Varek Raith

No, it's not a word? Or no...

44 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:02:24am

re: #40 Jeff In Ohio

"Chambliss, do you like gladiator movies?"

45 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:02:47am

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No, it's not a word? Or no...

No to the second part. Not sure if it's a word.

46 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:02:47am

A big, fat hermaphrodite with a flock-of-seagulls haircut and only one nostril.

47 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:03:00am

re: #22 political lunatic

"We should listen to our generals and do what they ask for- but only when either a Republican administration is in power or our Commander-in-Chief disagrees with the generals." -John McCain's stance on DADT in one easy sentence. *groans* Bleeping hypocrites.

He really has to say that, though. He's facing a Tea Party-style primary challenge. Right now, John McCain can't afford to leave the reservation.

48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:04:48am

Would it be fair to say that DADT was a baby step toward this positive evolution?

49 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

"The reason why I supported the policy to start with is because General Colin Powell, who was then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is the one that strongly recommended we adopt this policy in the Clinton administration. I have not heard General Powell or any of the other military leaders reverse their position," - McCain, yesterday.

“In the almost 17 years since the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ legislation was passed, attitudes and circumstances have changed. I fully support the new approach presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee this week by Secretary of Defense Gates and Admiral Mullen," Colin Powell, today.

Seriously, that's gonna sting a bit.

50 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:06:33am

re: #49 abbyadams

If by 'sting' you mean, blow your own foot off, then yes, it'll sting.
:D

51 psyop  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:07:09am

It made me sad when excellent soldiers that I served with who happened to be gay lived in fear that there stellar career could be destroyed because someone found out their orientation. I believe most people in military would be just fine with homosexuals serving openly, and I would submit that most have known and had no problem with a gay soldier/sailor/airman/marine that they served with.

There was a quote that I love, but cannot remember who said it. To paraphrase: "You don't have to be straight to fight for your country, you just have to shoot straight."

52 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:07:18am

Once again Obama shows how he is Zelig. Tell the audience he is front of exactly what they want to hear, in order to fit in.

At the Republican retreat on Friday he acknowledged that he accepts ideas from the Republicans. They handed him documents with the ideas. He said he had read them.

Today he is telling the Democrats that Republicans have to 'show me' IF they have suggestions...

Right back to the lies...

53 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #42 shiplord kirel

I view statements like that from the fringe religious right kooks the same way I view Hamas statements about further retaliation after one of their leaders gets offed. If their declared purpose is destruction/resistance to the last ditch than it is obvious that if this latest event is not going to change the behaviors of the group at all. If this didn't happen, they would act exactly the same.

(Caveat: If it was talked about, and then passed on, the groups would be crowing about how their ideology and faith had carried the day.)

54 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:08:02am

re: #52 Buck

What the hell does that have to do with this thread, please? Or anything anyone has said?

55 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #30 political lunatic

The bigots are really going to be coming out of the woodwork now. I shudder to think what they'll say if the SCOTUS takes the Prop 8 trial and uses it to legalize gay marriage in the US.

Fuck the bigots.

56 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:08:50am

re: #54 Obdicut

What the hell does that have to do with this thread, please? Or anything anyone has said?

EXCUSE ME for the missing OT

Jeez.... you gonna give me a ticket?

57 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:09:05am

re: #54 Obdicut

What the hell does that have to do with this thread, please? Or anything anyone has said?

Oh, his deflector shields are at max.
*Redies phased polaron factzors*

58 Lidane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:09:25am

re: #29 Varek Raith

Hermaphrodites? Methinks Hunter has been watching too much hentai, tsk tsk.

Heh. I bet his real hentai kinks involve plant life. The hermaphrodites are just for research. ;)

/Do I really need to tag this? OK.

59 RadicalModerate  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:09:55am

My thoughts exactly, Charles. At the time, the DADT policy was the right way to go. It gave gays the opportunity to serve our nation's military with a semblance of a buffer from persecution. Sixteen years later, its been pretty well proven that having gays in the military, just like desegregation forty years prior, didn't destroy the cohesiveness of our troops. Removal of the DADT policy and replacing it with acceptance of gays should be done as quickly as it can be passed down the chain of command. For those who are fearful of sexual conduct occurring within the troops, they can follow the same rules as they do for straight couples.

60 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:11:56am

re: #49 abbyadams

"The reason why I supported the policy to start with is because General Colin Powell, who was then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is the one that strongly recommended we adopt this policy in the Clinton administration. I have not heard General Powell or any of the other military leaders reverse their position," - McCain, yesterday.

“In the almost 17 years since the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ legislation was passed, attitudes and circumstances have changed. I fully support the new approach presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee this week by Secretary of Defense Gates and Admiral Mullen," Colin Powell, today.

Seriously, that's gonna sting a bit.

It does, but McCain isn't interested in correct policies. He's concerned with keeping his job and right now that means keeping the teabaggers happy. Sometimes Senators have to shill for bad policies in order to please the base of their parties. It sucks, but that's The Way It Is.

61 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:12:19am

re: #49 abbyadams

Isn't Sullivan awesome?

62 simoom  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:13:04am

re: #49 abbyadams

Here's the video of McCain saying his DADT position was informed by Powell (and others) and that he'll seriously consider overturning it when the military leadership comes to him asking it be chaged:

[Link: www.dailykostv.com...]

63 Neutral President  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

Gambling and body art are connected to homosexuality how exactly? What color is the sky on this guys world?

64 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:13:45am

OT - Have problems? Need advice? Ask Dr. Michael, the 8 year old advice columnist.

65 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:13:52am

re: #63 ArchangelMichael

Gambling and body art are connected to homosexuality how exactly? What color is the sky on this guys world?

Fuchsia?
/ducks

66 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:13:56am

re: #61 bloodstar

Sometimes, sometimes not so much, IMO. He's right on this topic, though, naturally, and I'm happy for it.

67 psyop  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:14:12am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

When I was in the Marines, I knew a few people who I didn't ask, and they didn't tell, but we all knew about. The only ones I had a problem with were the ones who were fuckups. Hell, one of the best SNCO's I ever served with was a lesbian.

At one point I was working with a squad of Marines in Iraq. They had a corpsman who was as gay as the day is long, and they all knew it. Didn't matter to them, though. From what I heard from them, he was "The best damn corpsman I have ever seen."

Amazing what happens when all you do is judge someone based on their performance.

68 abbyadams  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:14:55am

re: #62 simoom

I'm actually interested to see what he's going to say tomorrow.

(Thanks for the vid.)!

69 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:15:01am

re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No. It was bad policy, pure and simple, and only delayed eventual acceptance by pretending something had been done when nothing had. It would have been better to keep the outright ban in place; it provided, at least, a high-profile target to aim at. Instead, we got no change at all masquerading as "progress."

In one of his last legislative battles, Barry Goldwater strongly favored a complete lifting of the ban, on the basis that core Conservative principles didn't allow for the government dictating how people must behave in their private lives. Barney Frank, who Goldwater partnered with, took the low road and settled for a compromise that gained nothing but many more years of gays in the military being treated worse even than second-class citizens - they were treated as though they didn't exist at all, and any evidence to the contrary was grounds to drum them out of the service.

DADT achieved nothing worthwhile.

70 Diane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:16:02am

re: #27 Obdicut

Completely agree with you, Charles could not have said it better. Like you, I struggle with the indifference and the hostility regarding many items but I see this in both, left and right clusters. I guess group thinking does that.

- For the troops who are much braver and tougher than I am, bless them all!

71 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:16:10am

re: #57 Varek Raith

Oh, his deflector shields are at max.
*Redies phased polaron factzors*

Standby to fire Quantum Torpedoes. We've got those new ones that Ludwig designed and they're rated to punch through 4 meters of solid Obtusium. I think they'll be enough.

/

72 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:16:19am

re: #56 Buck

No. It just came the hell out of nowhere, dude. I get it that you don't like Obama. It's just odd when it springs out of you unconnected to anything.

In this particular issue, that of DADT, do you agree or disagree with Obama? You're Canadian, right-- you have gays in your military, correct?

73 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:17:37am

re: #72 Obdicut

PIMF: Obviously, I mean 'gays serving openly', not just 'gays'.

74 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:17:40am

re: #30 political lunatic

The bigots are really going to be coming out of the woodwork now. I shudder to think what they'll say if the SCOTUS takes the Prop 8 trial and uses it to legalize gay marriage in the US.

It's a risky strategy. If they win, they win big. At least presumably; much depends on the exact nature of the ruling. If they lose, however, the loss is devastating to the cause and will set back progress toward goal by years, maybe decades, in a battle that otherwise seems to be nearing it's end in favor of gay marriage.

75 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:17:42am

Sigh, could Hayworth actually pull off a win against McCain?

76 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:18:06am

“If I were asked to describe the difference between the sexes in the gay world, I would say that the men wanted to be amused; the girls sought vindication”
-- Quentin Crisp

77 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:19:11am

All gay men see all other men as sex objects. I know, because I am a confirmed hetero and I see all women as sex objects.

I cannot control my heterosexual drive, and only fear of punishment and social ostracism forces me to keep it within accepted bounds, and contain my sexual attraction for the underage and handicapped who cannot resist my advances.

And I know that all gays are perverts, because the Bible says they are an abomination unto the Lord. So they have to be even more uncontrollable in their primal lust gratication drive than me.

So for God's sake, keep these people out of the military!

78 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:19:15am

re: #67 psyop

At one point I was working with a squad of Marines in Iraq. They had a corpsman who was as gay as the day is long, and they all knew it. Didn't matter to them, though. From what I heard from them, he was "The best damn corpsman I have ever seen."

Amazing what happens when all you do is judge someone based on their performance.

My old man says almost everyday (he has Alzheimers) the only men he hated in the Marine Corp had silver oak leafs.

79 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:20:01am

re: #76 The Sanity Inspector

I didn't want to be touched, I wanted to be admired.

--Quentin Crisp

My eldest brother took him out to lunch once, because he'd heard that Crisp would go out to lunch with pretty much anyone who asked nicely. He said he was utterly charming.

80 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:20:04am

re: #49 abbyadams

"The reason why I supported the policy to start with is because General Colin Powell, who was then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is the one that strongly recommended we adopt this policy in the Clinton administration. I have not heard General Powell or any of the other military leaders reverse their position," - McCain, yesterday.

“In the almost 17 years since the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ legislation was passed, attitudes and circumstances have changed. I fully support the new approach presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee this week by Secretary of Defense Gates and Admiral Mullen," Colin Powell, today.

Seriously, that's gonna sting a bit.

LOL Indeed!

Clinton never wanted DADT. It was a compromise to his Republican congress.

81 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:20:47am

re: #77 ralphieboy

Your unit is cohesive!

82 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:21:29am

re: #67 psyop

At one point I was working with a squad of Marines in Iraq. They had a corpsman who was as gay as the day is long, and they all knew it. Didn't matter to them, though. From what I heard from them, he was "The best damn corpsman I have ever seen."

Amazing what happens when all you do is judge someone based on their performance.

And wasn't one of the UA Flight 95 heroes gay? Andrew Sullivan cracked at the time that, while the passengers were plotting to fight back, he probably wasn't doing their hair.

83 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:21:30am

re: #81 Jeff In Ohio

Your unit is cohesive!

yes, I have always believed in small unit cohesion: the smaller, the more cohesive...

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:21:57am

re: #77 ralphieboy

Thanks, Senator Chambliss.

85 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:22:05am

re: #63 ArchangelMichael

Gambling and body art are connected to homosexuality how exactly? What color is the sky on this guys world?

LOL The tats aren't a problem, but the nipple piercings still seem to be an issue :p (any piercings really)

86 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:22:42am

re: #75 Varek Raith

Sigh, could Hayworth actually pull off a win against McCain?

He could but he probably won't. McCain's been careful to not tick off the right and he does have Sarah Palin in his corner. Most likely the Tea Party crowd will fall into line behind their queen.

/Puke from having to write that last sentence.

87 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:22:43am

re: #72 Obdicut

No. It just came the hell out of nowhere, dude. I get it that you don't like Obama. It's just odd when it springs out of you unconnected to anything.

In this particular issue, that of DADT, do you agree or disagree with Obama? You're Canadian, right-- you have gays in your military, correct?

Ok Officer... just give me the ticket and keep the speech...

However since you ask, I support gays in the military 100%, and without hesitation. I also support gay marriage, although I am a little against marriage in general. Bad divorce...

What I would support is actually miles past Obama (who does not support gay marriage). I would put discrimination against gays right up there with discrimination for racial reasons and sex.

Oh, BTW my mother (who is a registered lizard) is gay.

Does that help?

88 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:22:51am

Man Denied French Citizenship Because Wife Wears Veil


"Monsieur X displays in an everyday manner a discriminatory attitude towards women, going as far as refusing to shake their hands and advocating the separation of boys and girls including, at home, of brothers and sisters," the ruling read.

"The lifestyle he has chosen may be justified by religious precepts but is incompatible with the values of the Republic, notably the principle of equality of the sexes."

89 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #87 Buck

Does that help?

Sure. It's on-topic, interesting, and relevant.

So, in this case, you side with Obama and against the GOP. So I'm a little confused as to why you chose to open with a comment about how Obama sucks.

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:24:31am

Gotta go... Y'all keep it straight, okay.

Get it? STRAIGHT!?!?

I kill me.

91 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:24:42am

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)

His middle name should be something like Bouregard...

re: #9 abbyadams

Beauregard Jackson Pickett Burnsides.

If I could stand to be in a building with him, I would introduce you to my senator, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions (R), AL.

92 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:24:51am

re: #75 Varek Raith

Sigh, could Hayworth actually pull off a win against McCain?

Honestly, as big a whack-job that Hayworth is, I don't think McCain would be a great loss to the Senate. Hayworth would continue objecting to anything the Democrats proposed just the same as McCain. Now, if Hayworth beats McCain and loses in the general to [unnamed Democrat], then that would be something indeed.

93 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:25:13am

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta go... Y'all keep it straight, okay.

Get it? STRAIGHT!?!?

I kill me.

If not, we won't tell anyone just yet...

94 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:25:39am

re: #92 darthstar

Honestly, as big a whack-job that Hayworth is, I don't think McCain would be a great loss to the Senate. Hayworth would continue objecting to anything the Democrats proposed just the same as McCain. Now, if Hayworth beats McCain and loses in the general to [unnamed Democrat], then that would be something indeed.

Eh, I don't quite see McCain and Hayworth as being the same...
;)

95 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:26:03am

Play it to at least :50 before you bail.

96 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:26:57am

re: #80 marjoriemoon

LOL Indeed!

Clinton never wanted DADT. It was a compromise to his Republican congress.

As I recall, Clinton enacted DADT through Executive Order. Congress later picked up the ball and made it permanent, with the slightest of changes.

Earlier, opposition to lifting the ban was led by Sam Nunn.

As noted above, when DADT made it to Congress, Barney Frank favored compromise, while Barry Goldwater championed a complete lifting of the ban, without qualification.

There's a fairly good overview of the history at Wikipedia.

97 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:27:16am

re: #88 Killgore Trout Stinks

Man Denied French Citizenship Because Wife Wears Veil

Viva La France! Viva Sarkozy! I give France credit for this. That sort of bigoted Muslim should not be welcomed into a western nation and should be sent home if possible.

98 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:27:18am

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Good on Powell. He is a Republican I could vote for. It is too bad he will never run and that his party rejected him.

Good analysis if it were true. His party didn't reject him, he rejected them. Now, if we could get Liebermann and Powell to run on the same ticket we might actually have something.

99 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:28:33am

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Good on Powell. He is a Republican I could vote for. It is too bad he will never run and that his party rejected him.

He was one of two republicans I would have voted for. After the street theatre with the vial of baby powder, he goes into history with crap on his face. Tragic?
You call it, LVQ.

100 abolitionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:28:42am

re: #82 The Sanity Inspector

And wasn't one of the UA Flight 95 heroes gay? Andrew Sullivan cracked at the time that, while the passengers were plotting to fight back, he probably wasn't doing their hair.

I believe you meant Flight 93. Mark Bingham

101 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:28:54am

re: #94 Varek Raith

Eh, I don't quite see McCain and Hayworth as being the same...
;)

Well, there are some differences...though you couldn't tell from looking at McCain these past 12 months. He's gone rogue himself.

102 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:29:07am

re: #94 Varek Raith

Eh, I don't quite see McCain and Hayworth as being the same...
;)

Nor do I. McCain is worthy of continued support in my eyes. Darthstar is a liberal pacifist, so his views on who would be best for the Senate and what policies are best differ from mine.

103 allegro  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:29:25am

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

Viva La France! Viva Sarkozy! I give France credit for this. That sort of bigoted Muslim douchecanoe should not be welcomed into a western nation and should be sent home if possible.

They do come in other flavors as well. Just sayin'.

104 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:29:50am

re: #79 Obdicut

I didn't want to be touched, I wanted to be admired.

--Quentin Crisp

My eldest brother took him out to lunch once, because he'd heard that Crisp would go out to lunch with pretty much anyone who asked nicely. He said he was utterly charming.

Yes, we won't get another one of him anytime soon. It's a pity his private life was so barren, though.

"I have never been in love with anyone nor, so far as I know, has anyone ever been in love with me."

He lived a long time, and the thought of a lifetime spent in emotion-free rutting--gay or straight--just gives me a feeling like biting into a rotten fruit.

105 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:30:16am

re: #100 abolitionist

I believe you meant Flight 93. Mark Bingham


The 9/11 attacks were God's punishment for allowing gays int he military, even with DADT.

So there, ran rings around your logic...

106 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:30:20am

re: #100 abolitionist

I believe you meant Flight 93. Mark Bingham

Right you are. GIMF.

107 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:30:50am

re: #89 Obdicut

Sure. It's on-topic, interesting, and relevant.

So, in this case, you side with Obama and against the GOP. So I'm a little confused as to why you chose to open with a comment about how Obama sucks.

OK, let me make my initial comment relevant. Let's see OBAMA actually do it, and in a reasonable time. OR maybe he is just acting all Zelig-like and saying what you want to hear.

Look, you try to paint me as one dimensional... that is a mistake. There were lots of times I opposed GWB. And there might be a time when I find something of Obama's that I support. However right now, he can lie through his teeth and no one calls him on it.

108 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:32:19am

re: #96 SixDegrees

As I recall, Clinton enacted DADT through Executive Order. Congress later picked up the ball and made it permanent, with the slightest of changes.

Earlier, opposition to lifting the ban was led by Sam Nunn.

As noted above, when DADT made it to Congress, Barney Frank favored compromise, while Barry Goldwater championed a complete lifting of the ban, without qualification.

There's a fairly good overview of the history at Wikipedia.

Good point... and the "Defense of Marriage Act"? Also a Clinton creation.

109 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:32:41am

re: #103 allegro

They do come in other flavors as well. Just sayin'.

They do, but it sometimes helps to highlight the Islamist varieties of scumbag. The MSM doesn't do that, so I sometimes emphasize the point to compensate.

110 abolitionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:33:24am

re: #105 ralphieboy

By chance, are you Pat Robertson?

111 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:33:46am

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

Nor do I. McCain is worthy of continued support in my eyes. Darthstar is a liberal pacifist, so his views on who would be best for the Senate and what policies are best differ from mine.

Just don't say "liberal pacifist" like it's a bad thing. :)

McCain carries a lot of influence in the Senate. He could do a lot of good there if he were to go back to the 'maverick' image he used to pride himself on. But he's digging his heels in on every issue right now, and he's not exactly doing anything to help Americans in the process. He said before the election that he'd ask the military to repeal DADT if he was president. In 2006 he said he'd support repealing DADT if the military brass wanted it...now they do and he wants them to defer to congress. In other words, he supports the generals when he agrees with them.

So yes, McCain could do a lot of good in the Senate if he wanted to...he obviously doesn't right now (probably because he fears losing the extreme right of his base).

112 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:33:57am

Roslin Hashim is making a bid to claim financial losses from the 12-day marriage to his ex-wife. The reason: He was unable to get sexual satisfaction from her.

The national badminton player won Round One of his bid Monday after his former wife, Faizah Mohamad, failed to set aside Roslin's claim of RM53,460 in losses from their short marriage after the Syariah High Court here dismissed her preliminary objection.

In handing down his decision, judge Mohd Radzi Abd Latif ordered that the case be tried and fixed March 23 and March 24 for the hearing which would be held in a closed-court, Bernama reported.

On Aug 12 last year, Roslin or Muhammad Roslin Hashim, 34, filed a suit against Faizah claiming for losses he allegedly incurred during their marriage. The couple married on Jan 30, 2009 and divorced 12 days later.

In his statement of claim, Roslin, who was represented by lawyer Roslizam Rahim, stated that the claims included for purchase of rings and expenses incurred during the engagement and wedding ceremonies, including for rental of canopies, video and hotel rooms.

Faizah filed the preliminary objection on Oct 21 last year on grounds that the claims were ridiculous and undignified.

At Monday's hearing, lawyer Mohd Amir Nazli Hussin, who represented Faizah, submitted that the case, if tried, could embarrass both parties as it would involve their sexual relations during their marriage.

"Roslin claimed that he divorced Faizah because he could not get sexual satisfaction from her. Therefore, if this claim is allowed and all the facts are submitted, they can embarrass both parties," he added.

He said the action by Roslin could also set a culture for former husbands to file for losses from their ex-wives.

"Not only is the defendant (Faizah) made a virgin divorcee after 12 days of marriage, but she is also being blamed and burdened with this undignified claim," added Mohd Amir.

He also said that the court had no jurisdiction to hear and decide on Roslin's claim under section 46 of the Administration of Islamic Law (Federal Territories) Act 1993.

SNIP

113 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:34:05am

re: #107 Buck

I'm not trying to paint you as anything, man. I'm reacting to what you did: posted a completely off-topic attack on Obama for being something subjective and abstract.

There exists a particular website dedicated to tracking Obama's promises kept and promises broken, so I'm not sure what you mean by nobody calling him on his 'lies'. His ratio of promises kept to broken is rather high, too.

114 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:34:44am

The worst part of being gay in the twentieth century is all that damn disco music to which one has to listen.
--Quentin Crisp

Tchaikovsky thought of committing suicide for fear of being discovered as a homosexual, but today, if you are a composer and not homosexual you might as well put a bullet through your head.
--Sergei Diaghilev

115 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:35:34am

re: #110 abolitionist

By chance, are you Pat Robertson?


I fell off my horse on the Damascus road and have been channeling him ever since...

116 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:36:03am

re: #112 MandyManners

What a dick. She was right not to let him have any.

117 Diane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:36:38am

re: #88 Killgore Trout Stinks

This is very interesting, thanks for posting the link.

Perhaps some will be outraged at France's ruling on this but it is not for hubby to decide what she wears and can do. We got to remember that women are not proprieties even though they are treated like they are in many nations.

119 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:37:06am

re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Would it be fair to say that DADT was a baby step toward this positive evolution?

It was a giant leap. Not long before that gays were looking at prison time.

120 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:37:27am

re: #112 MandyManners

Roslin Hashim is making a bid to claim financial losses from the 12-day marriage to his ex-wife. The reason: He was unable to get sexual satisfaction from her.

SNIP


Since fundamentalist Muslims are hardly allowed any intimacy before marriage, they have to settle for buying a pig in a poke, so to speak.

121 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:37:30am

re: #116 darthstar

What a dick. She was right not to let him have any.

For all we know, he could've done with a few doses of Viagra.

122 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:40:13am

re: #120 ralphieboy

Since fundamentalist Muslims are hardly allowed any intimacy before marriage, they have to settle for buying a pig in a poke, so to speak.

Do we know that they follow a strict Islam? Did you see her wedding get-up?

123 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:41:31am

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

Viva La France! Viva Sarkozy! I give France credit for this. That sort of bigoted Muslim should not be welcomed into a western nation and should be sent home if possible.

This stuff is always a tough call but I'll side with the French on this one. Freedom of religion is fine but the French do have the right to deny immigration to people who don't have modern values.

124 sffilk  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:41:45am

re: #18 lawhawk

Particularly those who were interpreters who were (and remain) in short supply.

I met quite a few Arabic interpreters who were kicked out before 9/11. I would love to ask Sen. Chambliss something akin to: if we hadn't kicked them out, we might have had the intel to prevent 9/11. That being said, would you still have preferred them being kicked out?

125 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:42:00am

oops, I left my sock puppet on.

126 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #123 Killgore Trout Stinks

This stuff is always a tough call but I'll side with the French on this one. Freedom of religion is fine but the French do have the right to deny immigration to people who don't have modern values.

The U.S. can do the same?

127 Buck  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:42:49am

re: #113 Obdicut

I'm not trying to paint you as anything, man. I'm reacting to what you did: posted a completely off-topic attack on Obama for being something subjective and abstract.

There exists a particular website dedicated to tracking Obama's promises kept and promises broken, so I'm not sure what you mean by nobody calling him on his 'lies'. His ratio of promises kept to broken is rather high, too.

You really don't need to ask someone why they would support some of a persons positions and not others, unless you think people are literally one dimensional. Normal people will have agreements and disagreements with anyone...

AND you should not that I am not supporting Obama. I make it clear that I am miles past him on this issue. How can someone who feels DADT is discriminatory but not see the "Defense of Marriage Act" as discriminatory.

The websites are not counting many of the lies. It is so easy to game these lists... just ignore the issues you don't think are important enough.
For example the one I mention in the post that seems to have shocked and confused you.

128 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:45:09am

re: #126 MandyManners

The U.S. can do the same?

In this case, maybe. This guy is an over-the-top bigot. Barring such a person from naturalization should be doable.

129 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:45:18am

re: #127 Buck

unless you think people are literally one dimensional.

Literally one-dimensional people can't use keyboards.

The websites are not counting many of the lies. It is so easy to game these lists... just ignore the issues you don't think are important enough.

So in other words, even though there is a website that exists and calls him on broken promises, nobody is calling him on his lies because you think that they're ignoring some issues.

For example the one I mention in the post that seems to have shocked and confused you.

I'm not really shocked. I'm confused, since I have no clue what you're trying to achieve here, other than venting about how you really don't like Obama and he lies a lot.

130 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:45:52am

re: #114 The Sanity Inspector

The worst part of being gay in the twentieth century is all that damn disco music to which one has to listen.
--Quentin Crisp


I'd never heard of him before last week when I watched An Englishman in New York.....

john Hurt plays Quentin. Very interesting character.

131 TheMatrix31  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:46:14am

Don't Ask, Don't Tell should be turned into Don't Know, Don't Care.

132 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:46:26am

re: #77 ralphieboy

All gay men see all other men as sex objects. I know, because I am a confirmed hetero and I see all women as sex objects.

I cannot control my heterosexual drive, and only fear of punishment and social ostracism forces me to keep it within accepted bounds, and contain my sexual attraction for the underage and handicapped who cannot resist my advances.

And I know that all gays are perverts, because the Bible says they are an abomination unto the Lord. So they have to be even more uncontrollable in their primal lust gratication drive than me.

So for God's sake, keep these people out of the military!

Unfortunately, you should probably sarc that.

133 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:46:30am

re: #126 MandyManners

The U.S. can do the same?


I'm not sure. There might be Constitutional issues.

134 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:47:28am

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

In this case, maybe. This guy is an over-the-top bigot. Barring such a person from naturalization should be doable.

We could have a litmus test of bigotry?

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:48:44am

Is this not the 21st century? Why are people still afraid of gays in our modern world? I don't get it.

I find it offensive that those who fight for the freedoms we enjoy in America are denied a measure of that freedom for themselves.

136 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:48:46am

re: #133 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure. There might be Constitutional issues.

There is no problem with this and the Constitution of the Fifth Republic?

137 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:49:02am

re: #111 darthstar

I've been waiting for someone else to point out the obvious in defense of McCain but it looks like it has been left to me.

2007: [Link: thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com...]

McCain Backs ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’

2008: [Link: www.cnn.com...]


McCain said: "...I don't think there's any doubt that there are evolving attitudes in America about many issues, including this one, but every military leader that I talk to, I say 'Should we change it?' They say, 'It's working.' And right now we've got the best military we've ever had -- the most professional, best trained, equipped and the bravest. And so I think it's logical to leave this issue alone. I really do."

and 2009: [Link: thinkprogress.org...]


McCAIN: But in all due respect, right now the military is functioning extremely well in very difficult conditions. We have to have an assessment on recruitment, on retention and all the other aspects of the impact on our military if we change the policy. In my view, and I know that a lot of people don’t agree with that, the policy has been working and I think it’s been working well.

There are more than a few senators who take their positions seriously and they get quite peeved when someone steps out of line. Sen. Byrd and Sen. Specter both made a habit of slapping people down who neglected to take the role of the senate seriously enough. McCains beef with the General seems to fall under that catagory.

138 oldegeezr  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:49:23am

Ah yes…

“C. [Chauncey] Saxby Chambliss, 2002 Senate defeat of Democratic incumbent Max Cleland (D-Ga.), Democrats have been slamming Chambliss for an allegedly tasteless television ad they said questioned Cleland’s patriotism. Cleland is a Vietnam veteran who lost three limbs in the war; Chambliss avoided service in Vietnam with five student deferments and a knee injury he got playing football… “

Sorry I couldn’t help myself…! The “C.” stands for Clarence.

Without a doubt [Chauncey] Saxby, would be the first “Georgia, Chick, Chick, Chicken hawk” to know all about life in a military barracks to say nothing about combat operations!

You [Chauncey] would be the first Chick, Chick, Chicken hawk I’d run to for cover…Hell I might even follow you to the latrine…!

Oh, Ooo...

139 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:49:26am

re: #135 Slumbering Behemoth

Is this not the 21st century? Why are people still afraid of gays in our modern world? I don't get it.

I find it offensive that those who fight for the freedoms we enjoy in America are denied a measure of that freedom for themselves.

Free for me! Not for thee!

140 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:50:42am

re: #132 Decatur Deb

Unfortunately, you should probably sarc that.

I just couldn't bring myself to do it at this site...but if it is required then


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

retroactively

141 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:50:58am

re: #65 Varek Raith

Fuchsia?
/ducks

An acquaintance went to his son's preschool teacher conference. Dialog, as he tells it:

Teach--Your son is amazing. He knows the names of 40 colors, some I didn't know.

Dad--He didn't tell you I'm a florist?

142 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:51:57am

re: #139 MandyManners

Book you might really like:

Free Speech for Me But Not For Thee, by Nat Hetoff.

143 abolitionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:54:46am

re: #105 ralphieboy

The 9/11 attacks were God's punishment for allowing gays int he military, even with DADT.

So there, ran rings around your logic...

Here are some logic rings you may wish to contemplate. (Or not.)

144 darthstar  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:54:49am

re: #137 RogueOne

Fair enough...but I still don't see how letting homosexuals serve openly in the military is going to change how the military operates(fashion jokes notwithstanding).

145 stevemcg  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 11:57:34am

The trolls on Attytood, a blog associated with Philly.com, are insisting that John McCain is voicing the reservations of the CinCs on their behalf because they actually disagree with their own public statements, but of course anybody familiar with a chain of command knows that generals can't disagree with the President. John McCain comes from a long line of great military leaders so he knows better what they really think than anybody else. That's about the jist of their comments.

146 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:00:00pm

re: #55 Jeff In Ohio

Fuck the bigots.

well screwing them in an uncomfortable place isn't going to change their minds...///

147 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:01:19pm

re: #144 darthstar

The legit concern raised is that it will lead to less willingness to enlist and that some parents will be less likely to support their children joining the military. Some people still get really scared of being around gay people, mostly because they do not really know any gay people IMO.

148 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:01:39pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Book you might really like:

Free Speech for Me But Not For Thee, by Nat Hetoff.

I've always respected Hentoff. We differ on abortion and the death penalty but, I admire his principled stances.

149 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:03:17pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

The legit concern raised is that it will lead to less willingness to enlist and that some parents will be less likely to support their children joining the military. Some people still get really scared of being around gay people, mostly because they do not really know any gay people IMO.

I have some concerns about that but, you can't keep 'em down on the farm forever!

150 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:04:31pm

re: #135 Slumbering Behemoth

Is this not the 21st century? Why are people still afraid of gays in our modern world? I don't get it.

I find it offensive that those who fight for the freedoms we enjoy in America are denied a measure of that freedom for themselves.

I am afraid of their fashion. Don't you ever watch The Soup? The fashiop police guy who likes to wear pink blazers scares me.

151 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:05:33pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

The legit concern raised is that it will lead to less willingness to enlist and that some parents will be less likely to support their children joining the military. Some people still get really scared of being around gay people, mostly because they do not really know any gay people IMO.

Remember the arguments against desegregating the US miltary in the 1940's?

152 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:09:35pm

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

I just showed that quote to a 25+ year vet and he's still laughing at it. Direct quote, 'Someone should tell him it's too f*in late, ha ha ha, ha, moron.'

153 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:11:38pm

re: #36 Baier

Yeah, what's better? The lack of political courage or the inability to tell right from wrong.

Well the very fact that Obama is moving on this proves we don't lack political courage all the time!

I find its not hard to choose between the fireman who only helps 10% of the time and the one who sets your house on fire....

154 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:13:50pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

He really has to say that, though. He's facing a Tea Party-style primary challenge. Right now, John McCain can't afford to leave the reservation.

Only if he cares more about being relected then doing the right thing..

155 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:20:41pm

re: #144 darthstar

Fair enough...but I still don't see how letting homosexuals serve openly in the military is going to change how the military operates(fashion jokes notwithstanding).

I agree. 20 years ago the country wasn't ready, plus in fairness there was still a big scare regarding AIDS at that time. It seems time now to move on and get rid of the DADT. Kids today are more open than they were 40 years and even 20 years ago.

156 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:20:44pm

re: #94 Varek Raith

Eh, I don't quite see McCain and Hayworth as being the same...
;)

Yeah Hayworth would super filibuster everything that came before him, that takes 70 votes to break!

157 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:23:29pm

re: #107 Buck

OK, let me make my initial comment relevant. Let's see OBAMA actually do it, and in a reasonable time. OR maybe he is just acting all Zelig-like and saying what you want to hear.

Look, you try to paint me as one dimensional... that is a mistake. There were lots of times I opposed GWB. And there might be a time when I find something of Obama's that I support. However right now, he can lie through his teeth and no one calls him on it.

If Obama just "does it" by executive order then there's nothing to keep the next president who comes along to undo it.

Obama can't force congress to pass new laws....

158 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:32:53pm

re: #154 jamesfirecat

Only if he cares more about being relected then doing the right thing..

Well, that's in fact what he cares about. He doesn't want to lose his seat over this issue, and so he's willing to do what he's told. Lots of people ignore or distort the truth because its what keeping their job requires at times. I'm one of them (though rarely).

159 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:34:16pm

re: #154 jamesfirecat

Only if he cares more about being relected then doing the right thing..

Lol, sorry but, that is the default programming of a politician.
;)

160 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:34:32pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

The legit concern raised is that it will lead to less willingness to enlist and that some parents will be less likely to support their children joining the military. Some people still get really scared of being around gay people, mostly because they do not really know any gay people IMO.

True some people aren't used to it, but according to my personal military source there's nothing like joining the military to smack that sort of fear right out of them in terms of what really matters when the reality of service and fighting becomes clear and in a bigger scheme life in general. Its just a pathetic excuse and would question anyones motivation for joining if this was going to stop them. Just stay home if that's the case, we wouldn't want you anyway. My guy is probably as stereotypical macho military badass, special forces dude as they come and says that yep they served alongside gay people during the years and years of his service, everyone knew it. A brother, is a brother, is a brother and 'sexuality meant crap when the bullets were flying over their heads and you depended on your comrades for your very lives.

161 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:34:43pm

re: #151 ralphieboy

Remember the arguments against desegregating the US military in the 1940's?

The concern I spoke of is ultimately overblown, IMO. I was stating the case, I don't agree with that case.

162 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:35:20pm

re: #159 Varek Raith

Lol, sorry but, that is the default programming of a politician.
;)

Quite Concur!

163 I Am Kreniigh!  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:37:10pm

Discussion of this issue is full of examples of soldiers, children of soldiers, etc. saying that they served and fought alongside homosexuals, going all the way back to WWII, and how everyone knew and no one cared... How it didn't cause problems and mattered a hell of a lot less than staying alive and getting the job done.

I have yet to see a single counter-example, outside the fevered imaginations of the Chamblisses of the world.

164 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:37:56pm

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur!

I would fail miserably as a politician! My bluntness alone would get me into huge trouble.
/Force Persuade, FTW!

165 I Am Kreniigh!  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:38:31pm

re: #154 jamesfirecat

He's a MAVERICK!

/ (did I use that right?)

166 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:40:16pm

re: #163 Kreniigh

Discussion of this issue is full of examples of soldiers, children of soldiers, etc. saying that they served and fought alongside homosexuals, going all the way back to WWII, and how everyone knew and no one cared... How it didn't cause problems and mattered a hell of a lot less than staying alive and getting the job done.

I have yet to see a single counter-example, outside the fevered imaginations of the Chamblisses of the world.

There have been problems, i.e. the kid beaten to death at Ft. Campbell. That can be seen as the result of DADT thinking, or a refutation of it.

167 oldegeezr  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:45:48pm

re: #149 MandyManners

Besides the farm Mandy… how yeh ever gonna send your kids to the mall, or to the college dorm or even to the shower room after a football or basketball game…?

“Oh the humanity of it all.”

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:49:05pm

re: #5 abbyadams

Yes, because there is absolutely no alcohol consumed or tattoos in the military now.
/need I?

I mean, I'm shocked, "SHOCKED" to hear about gambling going on in this establishment...

Being gay leads to drinking?

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:52:16pm

re: #18 lawhawk

Particularly those who were interpreters who were (and remain) in short supply.

What part of this are you not getting? The need to have straight interpreters is far greater than the need to have interpreters who actually speak Arabic. We got rid of those interpreters and replaced them with red-blooded heterosexual English speakers! Granted, they can't talk to the locals, or read any intercepted documents, but THEY ARE STRAIGHT!!!!

170 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:52:34pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

Being gay leads to drinking?

Do you think a straight man invented the apple teeny?

171 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:56:40pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

What part of this are you not getting? The need to have straight interpreters is far greater than the need to have interpreters who actually speak Arabic. We got rid of those interpreters and replaced them with red-blooded heterosexual English speakers! Granted, they can't talk to the locals, or read any intercepted documents, but THEY ARE STRAIGHT!!!

Probably easier to cure the gays than to teach Aggies Arabic, anyway.

//for safety

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:57:40pm

re: #51 psyop

It made me sad when excellent soldiers that I served with who happened to be gay lived in fear that there stellar career could be destroyed because someone found out their orientation. I believe most people in military would be just fine with homosexuals serving openly, and I would submit that most have known and had no problem with a gay soldier/sailor/airman/marine that they served with.

There was a quote that I love, but cannot remember who said it. To paraphrase: "You don't have to be straight to fight for your country, you just have to shoot straight."

Wasn't that Goldwater?

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:58:33pm

re: #168 SanFranciscoZionist

Being gay leads to drinking?

Holy shit dude! I had no idea that I was, like, really gawt-damned gay. Don't tell the gal I've been sleeping with, she might not take it well.
/

174 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:59:46pm

re: #170 jamesfirecat

Do you think a straight man invented the apple teeny?

Whoever began the modern bastardization of that once noble drink, the Martini, by making it sickeningly sweet and frighteningly colored ought to be summarily shot.

And I strongly suspect that Ted Allen would agree.

175 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:02:06pm

re: #174 SixDegrees

There is still one nice little martini bar in indianapolis. You can still smoke cigars in there too. Not sure if it's legal but I'm not about to ask or complain.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:03:39pm

re: #82 The Sanity Inspector

And wasn't one of the UA Flight 95 heroes gay? Andrew Sullivan cracked at the time that, while the passengers were plotting to fight back, he probably wasn't doing their hair.

Mark Bingham, yes.

177 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:03:53pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

The concern I spoke of is ultimately overblown, IMO. I was stating the case, I don't agree with that case.

I gathered, I was just pointing out hte parallels, like the arguments that "nobody would want to serve in thearmy if they had to share a barracks and a shower with blacks".

178 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:08:03pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Wasn't that Goldwater?

Yes.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:08:52pm

re: #170 jamesfirecat

Do you think a straight man invented the apple teeny?

I suspect that a straight man invented beer.

180 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:10:22pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect that a straight man invented beer.

Okay you may be right, but I bet the gays invented smoking.

Why else would it involve sticking something firm in your mouth and inhaling deeply?

Hell its right there in the name, "fags"!

///

181 Lidane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 1:20:22pm

re: #174 SixDegrees

Whoever began the modern bastardization of that once noble drink, the Martini, by making it sickeningly sweet and frighteningly colored ought to be summarily shot.

And I strongly suspect that Ted Allen would agree.

Considering Ted Allen's well publicized love for Bacon Tempura, I'd have to agree.

Any man, gay or straight, who likes to eat deep fried anything, especially deep fried bacon, is going to have an allergic reaction to a neon colored martini. Heh.

182 LotharBot  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 2:59:00pm

DADT made sense when it was written. The basic premise was "you can serve, but if you do, you're a soldier first and foremost. You're not a 'gay soldier', just a soldier." It helped prevent activists from being gay first, soldier second and providing a huge distraction in a culture that wasn't ready for it. But it allowed many gays to serve. (As many service members have commented, most people didn't care if someone was gay as long as they weren't a fuckup or a distraction, so DADT was only rarely invoked.)

It was a deeply flawed policy, but it provided a bridge from where we were then to where we are now, and prevented a lot of ridiculous turmoil during the transition. Now we need to move on. Is there a clever moniker for "serve openly, but don't be a distraction"?

183 pnw_pirate  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 3:43:33pm

I'm a Navy vet, and every one of the gay and lesbian Sailors I served with, two of whom I worked side by side with on a daily basis, were among the top performing and knowledgeable individuals on the entire ship.

However, they were in constant fear of being outed and having their future Veterans benefits stripped as a result of an undeserved Other Than Honorable discharge.

DADT needs to end; equality needs to be recognized. Now.

184 Lidane  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 3:51:21pm

re: #182 LotharBot

Is there a clever moniker for "serve openly, but don't be a distraction"?

I think that can best be summed up as "STFU and Do Your Job", which can easily be applied across the board, whether someone is gay, straight, male, female, or other.

I've never served in the military. However, I get the sense that for most folks who have served, a fellow soldier or sailor being gay isn't the issue. That person being able to do their job to the best of their ability without getting bogged down in personal drama is what matters more.

DADT is a horrible policy that should end. I hope that it does.

185 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:13:45pm

checking back in with the thread ...

I had a command before DNDT and one afterward.

Before DNDT the official policy was "no gays" but the fact was that there were gays serving and most COs ignored it. You had to have a real stick up your ass to try to get an effective troop out of a unit for homosexuality.

the culture of quasi-tolerance stemmed from Vietnam where guys would try to get out of the Army by saying "I'm gay". So if a troop said "I am gay" you'd pretty much ignore it until they got insistent and wanted out. Then you'd usually try to have them talk to the unit chaplain to find out if there was some other issue. That was the playbook.

If someone in a unit came up and said "Sir, I think Specialist Copely is gay" you'd wonder what that troop had against Specialist Copely and then try to find out from the NCOs.

After DADT, there was a procedure and a lot of focus so a commander had less discretion to simply ignore cases of "Sp4 Copely is gay". That doesn't mean that a commander could not create the circumstances where it could be ignored, but it was more difficult.

As for what happens in barracks and people seeing each others private parts and whatnot, the only times where you had open bay bathrooms and shower rooms (in my experience) were in training environments (like basic training) and at some training facilites (when your unit might go to the field for an ARTEP and live like guys in basic training when you aren't living in tents).

Most of the time you are in an environment where you have privacy when showering and taking care of -ahem- hygenic needs.

But that is training. Combat is different. You often have no idea where you will live next week and with whom. My brief time in combat was at a time where we didn't fight like we are in Iraq and Afghanistan. I really don't know if a combat soldier really sees the issue differently. 30 years ago all of society looked at gays differently - even in San Francisco.

186 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Feb 3, 2010 4:17:06pm

re: #120 ralphieboy

I think Muslims can get temporary "marriages" for the sole purpose of sex. Or so says Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her book Infidel.

187 CarryOn  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 8:10:14am

Update:
[Link: hotair.com...]


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