Dominican Official Warned US Baptists About Haitian Kids

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The Dominican consul general told CNN today that he warned the leader of a group of American Baptists that they were going to get in trouble, because they did not have the proper documentation for the Haitian children they tried to smuggle out of the country.

“I warned her, I said as soon as you get there without the proper documents, you are going to get into trouble, because they are going to accuse you, because you have the intent to pass the border without the proper papers and they are going to accuse you with kids trafficking,” Carlos Castillo said he told the group’s leader, Laura Silsby, during a meeting Friday.

Four hours later, Silsby and nine other Americans were turned back from the border. They were arrested and taken to a jail in Port-au-Prince.

“This woman knew what she was trying to do was not legal,” Castillo said.

A CNN reporter attempted to get reaction to Castillo’s comment from the jailed Americans, but they would not discuss the matter, responding to questions by singing “Amazing Grace” and praying.

And it gets worse; the leader of the Baptists claims she did not know that many of the children had living parents, but interpreters used by the group contradict her denial.

Told earlier that many of the children had living parents, Silsby said, “I did not know that.” She added, “In our hearts, our intention was to help children that had been orphaned or abandoned by their parents.”

But the interpreters the group had used said the conversations between Silsby and the parents in the Haitian town of Calebasse made clear to them that Silsby must have been aware of the children’s status.

SOS Children’s Villages, an Austrian charity, said that it has determined that at least two-thirds of the children are not orphans.

(Hat tip: Marjorie.)

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130 comments
1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 9:57:26am

From the article:

A CNN reporter attempted to get reaction to Castillo’s comment from the jailed Americans, but they would not discuss the matter, responding to questions by singing “Amazing Grace” and praying.

When the issues are on your side, pound the issues. When they're not, pound the table.

2 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 9:59:42am
But the interpreters the group had used said the conversations between Silsby and the parents in the Haitian town of Calebasse made clear to them that Silsby must have been aware of the children’s status.



But they knew better than some damn law that's supposed to protect children. Laws were for other people. They were special. They wanted to help the children, so what could possibly be wrong with that?

/

3 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:01:08am

re: #2 Obdicut

But they knew better than some damn law that's supposed to protect children. Laws were for other people. They were special. They wanted to help the children, so what could possibly be wrong with that?

/

But when you're on a mission from God, everything is allowable, right?
/

4 Baier  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:01:24am

They're not human trafficking, they're soul saving.//

5 charles_martel  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:02:04am

Why is it always Baptists.....?

6 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:02:12am

re: #3 PT Barnum

But when you're on a mission from God, everything is allowable, right?
/

And they would've made it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

7 Spider Mensch  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:02:46am

re: #3 PT Barnum

But when you're on a mission from God, everything is allowable, right?
/

worked for Jake and Elwood.

8 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:02:47am

If someone attempted to meddle with the bond between them and their children, they would scream.

9 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:03:19am

re: #3 PT Barnum

But when you're on a mission from God, everything is allowable, right?
/

If you've got enough gas and cigarettes.

10 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:03:56am

This situation gets stinkier by the minute.

Those people can not have been stupid.

Anybody with half a brain could figure out without being told that this scheme would not be proper, appropriate or legal.

They deserve to be sitting in jail - and frankly, the Haitian authorities need to take care of their other business before they get around to these clowns.

11 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:04:07am

It's not like people didn't see this kind of situation coming. UN officials, human rights groups, and others were concerned that the situation was ripe for someone to try and take advantage of the situation and take kids out without proper authorizations, approvals, etc.

I'm not surprised by any of this, and this group should get what's coming to them (and apparently the Haitian government and US officials are trying to figure out what to do). At a minimum, the group should be expelled from Haiti and prevented from doing business there. It does seem thought that 9 of the 10 will get released, while 1 will likely stand trial.

The group claims and those of relatives of the kids claim two different things. One side says that the kids were orphans. The other says that the church group got permission from family members. In no case were government authorizations provided.

12 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:04:14am

re: #7 Spider Mensch

Ya beat me.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:04:37am

I have been bothered by the media coverage of this. In each article I see, they emphasize, for no apparent reason, that lots of Haitians say they would give their children up to get them a better life. It feels to me as though the press is trying to set up a situation in which somehow this was OK, even though it didn't go through correct channels, and Haitian parents had no way of knowing who the hell these people were, because Haitians say they'd place their kids for adoption.

Complaint over.

14 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:04:54am

I was not aware that they broadcast their intentions to the authorities prior to the attempt. Dumb, just plain dumb.

15 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:05:24am

re: #7 Spider Mensch

worked for Jake and Elwood.

That was the reference I was going for...upding for catching it...

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:05:37am

re: #1 thedopefishlives

From the article:


When the issues are on your side, pound the issues. When they're not, pound the table.

I think they'd look a lot better if they simply said, 'we got carried away. We were trying to help. We're sorry, and we'd still like to help.'

17 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:05:37am

re: #10 reine.de.tout

The French group Zoe's Ark tried something similar in Chad with Darfur refugees; with similar results. Some people and groups think that they're doing something with good intentions, and ignore that what they're doing is illegal.

18 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:05:38am

I'm fearful to even look at right wing blogs to see how many are defending the actions of these people.

19 jaunte  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:06:16am
The group has no experience running an orphanage, has not registered as an international adoption agency and has not filed with the U.S. government as a nonprofit.

Church pastor Clint Henry was unfazed. "I believe that the kind of knowledge that it takes to begin an organization that works that way was in place," he told CNN. "The kind of employees that it takes to successfully run an orphanage, those were going to be hired."


These people are impenetrably foolish.

20 Spider Mensch  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:06:23am

...

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:06:30am

The choice between having your child with you, and your child having a future is heartbreakingly tragic. I cannot comprehend it.

Shouldn't aid agencies be working on that problem?

22 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:06:56am

re: #16 SanFranciscoZionist

I think they'd look a lot better if they simply said, 'we got carried away. We were trying to help. We're sorry, and we'd still like to help.'

But nooo, instead they have to act all self-righteous and sing religious songs in an attempt to stonewall the interviewer. This sort of behavior ROYALLY pisses me off, because it makes those of us who are on the sane side of the "religious right" look like idiots. I'm not with these people.

23 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:06:58am

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

I have been bothered by the media coverage of this. In each article I see, they emphasize, for no apparent reason, that lots of Haitians say they would give their children up to get them a better life. It feels to me as though the press is trying to set up a situation in which somehow this was OK, even though it didn't go through correct channels, and Haitian parents had no way of knowing who the hell these people were, because Haitians say they'd place their kids for adoption.

Complaint over.

I'm bothered by that, too.

These people have less than the nothing they had before the earthquake; they are injured, still in shock I'm sure . . . asking people what lengths they would go to in order to save their kids is just not the sort of questions that need to be asked right now.

24 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:07:19am

re: #3 PT Barnum

But when you're on a mission from God, everything is allowable, right?
/

Yep... it is. And this is a prime example of belief clouding knowledge ... the knowledge of the reality of the issue.

25 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:07:29am

re: #7 Spider Mensch

Weren't Jake and Elwood in prison at the end of the movie?

26 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:07:42am

re: #19 jaunte

When someone has to say "they were going to be hired" in your defense of how prepared they were, they're saying a whole bunch of crap.

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:07:58am

This has happened in America:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It had mixed results.

28 Spider Mensch  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:08:07am

re: #20 Spider Mensch

...

D'oh!!

re: #12 Decatur Deb

Ya beat me.

it'll cost ya..a cool water biscuit and a Sunday go to meeting bun!!

bowbowbowbow!!!!

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:08:16am

re: #5 charles_martel

Why is it always Baptists...?

Enthusiasm.

30 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:08:21am

re: #21 EmmmieG

They are.

31 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:08:44am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

Yep... it is. And this is a prime example of belief clouding knowledge ... the knowledge of the reality of the issue.

Science flies you to the moon. Religious Fanatacism flies you into buildings.

32 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:09:35am

re: #30 Obdicut

They are.

I know. I'm just thinking this is wasted time and effort, and a hassle that Haiti doesn't need right now.

33 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:09:40am

re: #22 thedopefishlives

Gives one the impression that the overall reason for acting is more selfish than simply "saving children".

34 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:10:51am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Enthusiasm.

This pretty much sums it up. Baptists are among the most energetic of the American religious traditions. They don't do anything by halves, and as a result, they make themselves look a lot of buffoons, even in cases where they're legitimately trying to do something worthwhile.

35 jaunte  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:10:52am

re: #18 Summer

I'm fearful to even look at right wing blogs to see how many are defending the actions of these people.

A couple of days ago a local conservative talk radio host here in Houston mentioned the story (raising grave doubts whether the church group had done anything wrong). No mention of it since then.

36 Baier  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:11:10am

There is a great story on This American Life about a family that adopted an "orphan" from Samoa, only to find out the little girl was not an orphan. The agency tricked the orphan's and the adoptive family. They told the orphan's family that the Americans would only "borrow" their daughter and raise and educate her in the US. Needless to say it didn't end well. But the amazing, and sickening thing about it is that other families that used the same adoption service refuse to acknowledge their adoptive kids may be ill gotten , depsite clear evidence. The whole thing is stomach turning.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:11:15am

re: #22 thedopefishlives

But nooo, instead they have to act all self-righteous and sing religious songs in an attempt to stonewall the interviewer. This sort of behavior ROYALLY pisses me off, because it makes those of us who are on the sane side of the "religious right" look like idiots. I'm not with these people.

They're also attracting a bazillion times more attention than Baptists who are just spending all day handing out water and shoveling rubble--people who are actively doing good. Which is just irritating.

38 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:11:21am

re: #17 lawhawk

The French group Zoe's Ark tried something similar in Chad with Darfur refugees; with similar results. Some people and groups think that they're doing something with good intentions, and ignore that what they're doing is illegal.

There is no lack of aid agencies people can work through if they really want to help. The "problem" with that, of course, is that it brings no attention to the group itself.

Groups or people that break laws in this way - and really, plain common sense should have told them that this was a stupid and illegal thing to do - groups that do this sort of thing want attention focused on themselves, imo, and oh, how wonderful they are! Which is completely selfish.

39 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:11:49am

Even before the earthquake the DR was not really keen on Haitians coming across the border, I don't think they thought this out very well.

40 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:12:20am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

They're also attracting a bazillion times more attention than Baptists who are just spending all day handing out water and shoveling rubble--people who are actively doing good. Which is just irritating.

Exactly. These people selfishly wanted attention for themselves. Which in my mind pretty much negates any "good intentions" they might have had.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:12:32am

re: #34 thedopefishlives

This pretty much sums it up. Baptists are among the most energetic of the American religious traditions. They don't do anything by halves, and as a result, they make themselves look a lot of buffoons, even in cases where they're legitimately trying to do something worthwhile.

To be fair, they also get a lot of good stuff done.

42 Locker  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:12:46am

The actions of this group are no different than a Voodoo cult abducting children to indoctrinate. THEY know what's best for the children, THEY know that the laws governing there actions don't apply to THEM because THEY are justified in their actions by the will of their respective deity/deities.

If someone stole my child then I would be applying a lot more stringent penalty than simply expelling them from my area or a mild scolding, I can tell you that much.

43 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:13:00am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

To be fair, they also get a lot of good stuff done.

Granted. But when they're showboating, as you pointed out so succinctly upthread, it just goes to waste.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:13:34am

re: #36 Baier

There is a great story on This American Life about a family that adopted an "orphan" from Samoa, only to find out the little girl was not an orphan. The agency tricked the orphan's and the adoptive family. They told the orphan's family that the Americans would only "borrow" their daughter and raise and educate her in the US. Needless to say it didn't end well. But the amazing, and sickening thing about it is that other families that used the same adoption service refuse to acknowledge their adoptive kids may be ill gotten , depsite clear evidence. The whole thing is stomach turning.

I can see my brain shutting down in total denial on that one, honestly. The idea, after you've bonded with a child, that you may not have it legitimately is a real hard pill to swallow.

45 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:13:55am
Told earlier that many of the children had living parents, Silsby said, “I did not know that.” She added, “In our hearts, our intention was to help children that had been orphaned or abandoned by their parents.”

Madonna was unavailable for comment.

46 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:13:55am

I have a cousin that was given up by his mother, in another country. She had been widowed while pregnant, he was the seventh child, and she had already had to farm out her other children to relatives.

He has pictures of her; they write back and forth some.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:14:52am

re: #42 Locker

The actions of this group are no different than a Voodoo cult abducting children to indoctrinate. THEY know what's best for the children, THEY know that the laws governing there actions don't apply to THEM because THEY are justified in their actions by the will of their respective deity/deities.

If someone stole my child then I would be applying a lot more stringent penalty than simply expelling them from my area or a mild scolding, I can tell you that much.

'Voodoo cult'? Perhaps a bad choice of words in this case.

48 Baier  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:15:00am

re: #36 Baier


Here is the link to listen to the story I mentioned above.
I warn you, it's heart breaking.

Act Two. Where’s King Solomon When You Need Him?


Reporter Ted Gesing interviews Mike Nyberg about adopting a little girl from Samoa, only to learn over time that her Samoan family had no intention of giving her up for adoption. The US adoption agency had told the Nybergs that their adoption would be closed, and that their little girl Elleia had been living in a foster home waiting for adoptive parents; but in Samoa, Elleia’s parents were told that their daughter could come to the US and receive a better education, and that the adoptive family would send money and regular updates on their daughter’s progress. The whole situation leaves the Nybergs trying to find their way through sticky moral territory. (31 minutes)
49 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:15:05am

They'll be singing a lot more than Amazing Grace if there's another aftershock.

What a bunch of idiots. "Don't do this, or you'll get arrested." Four hours later...

50 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:15:05am

re: #39 brookly red

Even before the earthquake the DR was not really keen on Haitians coming across the border, I don't think they thought this out very well.

Understatement ding.

51 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:15:35am

People give children up for adoption everywhere and all the time, bottom line however is that there's always formal paperwork involved.

53 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:16:21am

re: #52 Bubblehead II

She follows a higher law.

54 Baier  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:16:27am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

I can see my brain shutting down in total denial on that one, honestly. The idea, after you've bonded with a child, that you may not have it legitimately is a real hard pill to swallow.

that's what this Haitian "orphan" ordeal reminds me of. The entire thing stinks.

55 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:16:53am

So, how did this mess start in the first place? Well, this appears to be the consensus version:

It all began last week when a local orphanage worker, fluent in English and acting on behalf of the Baptists, convened nearly the entire village of 500 people on a dirt soccer field to present the Americans' offer.

Isaac Adrien, 20, told his neighbors the missionaries would educate their children in the neighboring Dominican Republic, the villagers said, adding that they were also assured they would be free to visit their children there.

Many parents jumped at the offer.

"It's only because the bus was full that more children didn't go," said Melanie Augustin, a 58-year-old who gave her 10-year-old daughter, Jovin, to the Americans.

Adrien said he met the Baptists' leader, Laura Silsby of Meridian, Idaho, in Port-au-Prince on Jan. 26. She told him she was looking for homeless children, he said, and he knew exactly where to find them.

He rushed home to Callebas, where people scrape by growing carrots, peppers and onions. That very day, he had a list of 20 children.

Desperate people in desperate situations make all kinds of decisions that we might not otherwise consider (like sending their kids away with a bunch of strangers claiming that they'll get a better life somewhere else. Yet, the group claims that the kids were orphans.

The problem with both stories though is that the group - New Life Children's Refuge had no approvals to do any of this. And even if they did - they were taking kids who already had parents and not merely trying to help orphans find placement somewhere else.

56 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:16:58am

re: #46 EmmmieG

I have a cousin that was given up by his mother, in another country. She had been widowed while pregnant, he was the seventh child, and she had already had to farm out her other children to relatives.

He has pictures of her; they write back and forth some.

re: #51 Thanos

People give children up for adoption everywhere and all the time, bottom line however is that there's always formal paperwork involved.

EmmieG & Thanos - when a parent places a child for adoption, they haven't really "given up" the child - what they've done is planned a future for that child that they themselves would be unable to provide.

57 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:18:41am

re: #55 lawhawk

The whole thing was poorly planned out on both sides. Desperate people jumping for an opportunity met up with a group of well-intentioned but ill-informed Americans who let their hearts (and, possibly judging by the reactions to the reporter, their religious egos) run way, way, WAY ahead of whatever brains they may have had.

58 Locker  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:19:12am

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

'Voodoo cult'? Perhaps a bad choice of words in this case.

Maybe but I figured, equal opportunity right? This still made me laugh quite a bit...

59 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:19:13am

And how many valuable resources are now going to deal with this mess that could otherwise be devoted to actually providing humanitarian aid and helping orphans in need.

60 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:19:24am

Okay..time to go...see you all later..

61 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:21:14am

re: #53 darthstar

She follows a higher law.

So does Hebrew National, but they still do the paperwork.

62 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:21:27am

re: #59 lawhawk

And how many valuable resources are now going to deal with this mess that could otherwise be devoted to actually providing humanitarian aid and helping orphans in need.

Too much.
I said it earlier - the Haitians need to let these folks sit in jail until they've dealt with the earthquake aftermath and have time to deal with these idiots.

63 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:21:51am

re: #2 Obdicut

But they knew better than some damn law that's supposed to protect children. Laws were for other people. They were special. They wanted to help the children, so what could possibly be wrong with that?

/

Half-cocked civil disobedience. With these revelations, I withdraw my earlier defense of the missionaries, with the possible mitigating circumstance of sheer idiocy.

64 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:22:18am

The story with the girl from the Solomon Islands is exactly why one has to work through channels, despite all one's best intentions.

65 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:22:23am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

EmmieG & Thanos - when a parent places a child for adoption, they haven't really "given up" the child - what they've done is planned a future for that child that they themselves would be unable to provide.

When a similar group took my farther out of Germany in the 30's it was thought of as a "sponsorship" his family fully expected to get him back... turns out he was the sole survivor.

66 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:22:50am

re: #61 Decatur Deb

So does Hebrew National, but they still do the paperwork.

Updinged because I get a smile on my face whenever I see one of their commercials. Quality marketing department they have.

67 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:23:22am

re: #56 reine.de.tout

The rest of the story--my uncle was there to pick up the boy, and was torn. Was he really doing the right thing? He was taking the boy away from his own culture, etc. etc...

As he was walking in the garden of the hotel, one of the gardeners came running up to him. The man had had a very hard life, and just wanted to tell him what a wonderful thing he was doing. All he could see is the opportunities my cousin would have.

But, it was all done legally, proper paperwork, etc. It was not a closed adoption, either.

68 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:23:24am

re: #66 thedopefishlives

Updinged because I get a smile on my face whenever I see one of their commercials. Quality marketing department they have.

heh.
I like those ads, too.
They're great.
No ifs, and or buts.

69 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:23:57am

re: #52 Bubblehead II

Morning all.

Laura Silsby is no stranger to flaunting the Law.

"Flouting".

/ ghost of William Safire

70 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:25:05am

re: #62 reine.de.tout

Too much.
I said it earlier - the Haitians need to let these folks sit in jail until they've dealt with the earthquake aftermath and have time to deal with these idiots.

I heard on the radio that there are no standing courthouses left in Haiti... I don't know if that is true but if it is it would complicate matters.

71 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:25:07am

re: #53 darthstar

Some how I don't think that is going to help her.

72 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:25:28am

re: #67 EmmmieG

The rest of the story--my uncle was there to pick up the boy, and was torn. Was he really doing the right thing? He was taking the boy away from his own culture, etc. etc...

As he was walking in the garden of the hotel, one of the gardeners came running up to him. The man had had a very hard life, and just wanted to tell him what a wonderful thing he was doing. All he could see is the opportunities my cousin would have.

But, it was all done legally, proper paperwork, etc. It was not a closed adoption, either.

Most adoptions these days are not completely closed.
We have regular contact with the couple who adopted my daughter's baby - photos, letters, e-mails, videos - not too much, but just enough - and to see how they absolutely ADORE that precious child - well, I just want to cry tears of joy.

73 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:26:07am

re: #1 thedopefishlives

From the article:

When the issues are on your side, pound the issues. When they're not, pound the table.

Sing "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, lalala I can't hear you!"

74 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:27:04am

re: #73 Alouette

If you can't be right, be a martyr instead?

75 Fart Knocker  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:27:59am

Life is hard, but it's a lot harder if you're stupid.

76 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:28:22am

Speaking of legal troubles...it appears our favorite rogue has a few lovely cabins and 20 acres of pristine land along a couple of lakes in the forget-me-not state...total value of the cabins, snow-machine shops, etc. on those properties, according to the tax assessment? $0.00. Almost makes one wonder what the insurance is on said properties.

oops? You betcha.

77 shiplord kirel  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:28:27am

re: #73 Alouette

Sing "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, lalala I can't hear you!"

Wretched they are, and they do indeed seem oblivious; but the whole world is hearing them.

78 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:30:10am
A CNN reporter attempted to get reaction to Castillo’s comment from the jailed Americans, but they would not discuss the matter, responding to questions by singing “Amazing Grace” and praying.

Of course they did.

79 Spider Mensch  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:30:36am

re: #70 brookly red

I heard on the radio that there are no standing courthouses left in Haiti... I don't know if that is true but if it is it would complicate matters.


I saw a photo of them behind yellow police tape...that's jail in Haiti right now..

jerry: you put yellow police tape around a half eaten apple??
Kramer: I'll get back to it later...

80 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:30:56am

re: #75 rwdflynavy

Life is hard, but it's a lot harder if you're stupid.

81 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:32:48am

re: #74 oaktree

If you can't be right, be a martyr instead?

Martyr cookies are delicious!

82 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:33:04am

re: #22 thedopefishlives

But nooo, instead they have to act all self-righteous and sing religious songs in an attempt to stonewall the interviewer. This sort of behavior ROYALLY pisses me off, because it makes those of us who are on the sane side of the "religious right" look like idiots. I'm not with these people.

reposted for the purposes of echoing

83 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:35:23am

re: #76 darthstar

Speaking of legal troubles...it appears our favorite rogue has a few lovely cabins and 20 acres of pristine land along a couple of lakes in the forget-me-not state...total value of the cabins, snow-machine shops, etc. on those properties, according to the tax assessment? $0.00. Almost makes one wonder what the insurance is on said properties.

oops? You betcha.

Beh. I'm more worked up about her speaking engagement. If our revered Treasury Secretary gets a pass, who doesn't?

84 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:36:14am

re: #65 brookly red

When a similar group took my farther out of Germany in the 30's it was thought of as a "sponsorship" his family fully expected to get him back... turns out he was the sole survivor.

Oh...how sad for your father...that just makes me cry.

85 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:36:14am

re: #22 thedopefishlives

But nooo, instead they have to act all self-righteous and sing religious songs in an attempt to stonewall the interviewer.

That's when the interviewer has a human and moral obligation to shout, "Are you people fucking daft?" and walk away.

86 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:37:35am

re: #83 Aceofwhat?

Beh. I'm more worked up about her speaking engagement. If our revered Treasury Secretary gets a pass, who doesn't?

I'm not worried about her speaking engagement. If idiots want to give her 100,000 dollars to speak, then that's 100,000 dollars less they have to give to actual candidates who will push their nutty ideas in government.

87 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:38:34am

re: #84 webevintage

Oh...how sad for your father...that just makes me cry.

well under the circumstances you can see why I am not ready to line these people up against a wall.

88 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:40:29am

re: #87 brookly red

well under the circumstances you can see why I am not ready to line these people up against a wall.

Of course.

89 Stanghazi  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:41:07am

re: #55 lawhawk

So, how did this mess start in the first place? Well, this appears to be the consensus version:

Desperate people in desperate situations make all kinds of decisions that we might not otherwise consider (like sending their kids away with a bunch of strangers claiming that they'll get a better life somewhere else. Yet, the group claims that the kids were orphans.

The problem with both stories though is that the group - New Life Children's Refuge had no approvals to do any of this. And even if they did - they were taking kids who already had parents and not merely trying to help orphans find placement somewhere else.

The thing that just makes my stomach ache is that they were taking advantage of people at their lowest point. Predatory almost.

90 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:41:16am

re: #86 darthstar

I'm not worried about her speaking engagement. If idiots want to give her 100,000 dollars to speak, then that's 100,000 dollars less they have to give to actual candidates who will push their nutty ideas in government.

I dislike any action that legitimizes the nutties...but you make an excellent point.

91 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:41:34am

re: #89 Stanley Sea

The thing that just makes my stomach ache is that they were taking advantage of people at their lowest point. Predatory almost.

Effing John Travolta.

92 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:41:39am

re: #89 Stanley Sea

The thing that just makes my stomach ache is that they were taking advantage of people at their lowest point. Predatory almost.

FTFY

93 Stanghazi  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:43:22am

re: #92 lawhawk

FTFY

Thank you. :-)

94 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:44:59am

re: #76 darthstar

Speaking of legal troubles...it appears our favorite rogue has a few lovely cabins and 20 acres of pristine land along a couple of lakes in the forget-me-not state...total value of the cabins, snow-machine shops, etc. on those properties, according to the tax assessment? $0.00. Almost makes one wonder what the insurance is on said properties.

oops? You betcha.

Ha!
Op-ed column in the NYT about Palin and Edwards, btw:
The Grifters

95 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:45:46am

re: #94 iceweasel

I read that this morning...it was quite good.

96 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:47:05am

re: #89 Stanley Sea

The thing that just makes my stomach ache is that they were taking advantage of people at their lowest point. Predatory almost.

If this had all been done though the proper channels and with paperwork.

If only what they were offering to the families was "sponsorship" of the children for a year or two or as long as the families involved wanted to continue. There is something very noble (and will still get you lots 'o stars in that heavenly crown) about opening your home to a child in need with the understanding that someday they will return to their family and country.

97 darthstar  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:47:47am

re: #94 iceweasel

Ha!
Op-ed column in the NYT about Palin and Edwards, btw:
The Grifters

One more thing...I hope that as the 'grifter' moniker gets applied to her more and more frequently, that she comes out and denounces it publicly...thus calling more attention to it.

In other news, President Obama made a great comment at the National Prayer Breakfast: "Surely you can question my policies without questioning my faith, or for that matter my citizenship"

98 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:49:42am

re: #94 iceweasel

Ha!
Op-ed column in the NYT about Palin and Edwards, btw:
The Grifters

Yep, working the Long Con....

99 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:49:52am

re: #97 darthstar

One more thing...I hope that as the 'grifter' moniker gets applied to her more and more frequently, that she comes out and denounces it publicly...thus calling more attention to it.

In other news, President Obama made a great comment at the National Prayer Breakfast: "Surely you can question my policies without questioning my faith, or for that matter my citizenship"

Saw that! TPM has the vid-- great stuff.
And yes, I agree.

I've decided to start referring to her as The Grifter from Wasilla, temporarily displacing my last faved nic for her: Bible Spice.

100 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:49:59am

re: #97 darthstar

One more thing...I hope that as the 'grifter' moniker gets applied to her more and more frequently, that she comes out and denounces it publicly...thus calling more attention to it.

In other news, President Obama made a great comment at the National Prayer Breakfast: "Surely you can question my policies without questioning my faith, or for that matter my citizenship"

And he's right. The GOP whined about it when Bush was president...doesn't help their credibility much to make any of these debates personal. Oh wait. I'm being rational again. Sigh.

101 Buck  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:50:30am

re: #76 darthstar

Speaking of legal troubles...it appears our favorite rogue has a few lovely cabins and 20 acres of pristine land along a couple of lakes in the forget-me-not state...total value of the cabins, snow-machine shops, etc. on those properties, according to the tax assessment? $0.00. Almost makes one wonder what the insurance is on said properties.

oops? You betcha.

There are places in Alaska that do not charge property taxes.

102 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51:08am

re: #99 iceweasel

Saw that! TPM has the vid-- great stuff.
And yes, I agree.

I've decided to start referring to her as The Grifter from Wasilla, temporarily displacing my last faved nic for her: Bible Spice.

That's cool. I was thinking about going with Silky Spice for Edwards...what do you think?

103 brookly red  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51:27am

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

"Surely you can question my policies without questioning my faith, or for that matter my citizenship"

And he's right. The GOP whined about it when Bush was president...doesn't help their credibility much to make any of these debates personal. Oh wait. I'm being rational again. Sigh.

of course he is right & indeed I do...

104 Locker  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51:45am

re: #99 iceweasel

Saw that! TPM has the vid-- great stuff.
And yes, I agree.

I've decided to start referring to her as The Grifter from Wasilla, temporarily displacing my last faved nic for her: Bible Spice.

I'm still stuck on Caribou Barbie. That one always seems the most appropriate...

105 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51:57am

As someone who has an adopted son (from Vietnam) and has gone through the process required of a legitimate international adoption, these people sicken me. I am so tired of hearing that they only wanted to help. F-bomb them and their so-called church.

It's not an easy or cheap process (we've been bankrupted, literally, by our adoption & still have not financially recovered). But damn-it, we did it the right way, followed the laws & made sure every t was crossed & i dotted.

They need to sit in a Haitian prison for a nice long time and maybe actually take the time to read that book they claim to follow. Not that they would - they'll be too busy pretending their being persecuted for disobeying the law. Feh. They ought to remember Matthew 6:5 too.

William

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:52:08am

re: #102 Aceofwhat?

That's cool. I was thinking about going with Silky Spice for Edwards...what do you think?

Shameless Spice.

107 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:52:37am

re: #102 Aceofwhat?

That's cool. I was thinking about going with Silky Spice for Edwards...what do you think?

I have to agree with Rush Limbaugh for once and go with the Silky Pony.

108 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:52:40am

re: #97 darthstar

Grifter is a term that could pretty much apply to all politicians.

109 webevintage  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:53:29am

re: #97 darthstar


In other news, President Obama made a great comment at the National Prayer Breakfast: "Surely you can question my policies without questioning my faith, or for that matter my citizenship"

I think it is time for our pols to stop attending the Prayer Breakfast until The Family is no longer involved in it.

He also said:

We can take different approaches to ending inequality, but surely we can agree on the need to lift our children out of ignorance; to lift our neighbors from poverty. We may disagree about gay marriage, but surely we can agree that it is unconscionable to target gays and lesbians for who they are -- whether it's here in the United States or, as Hillary mentioned, more extremely in odious laws that are being proposed most recently in Uganda.

Which was nice considering The Family is behind that disgusting crap in Uganda.

110 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:53:35am

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

Rancid spice. His 15 minutes are up.

111 Olsonist  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:53:42am

re: #27 EmmmieG

This has happened in America:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It had mixed results.

Upding for reminding us.

112 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:55:52am

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

Shameless Spice.

Former Democrat Presidential Candidate Shameless Spice.

113 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:57:36am

re: #112 Ben Hur

Former Democrat Presidential Candidate Hair Whisker Away From being VP Shameless Spice.

114 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:59:48am

re: #112 Ben Hur

Former Democrat Presidential Candidate Shameless Spice.

I once considered voting for him, so I won't attack him. Here, let me hold your coats for you.

115 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:04:41am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

I once considered voting for him, so I won't attack him. Here, let me hold your coats for you.

?

116 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:05:53am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

I once considered voting for him, so I won't attack him. Here, let me hold your coats for you.

I don't understand the reference.

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:06:38am

re: #116 Ben Hur

I don't understand the reference.

That's because you're Jewish. It's a reference to the fact that Paul held the coats of those who stoned the first Christian martyr, Stephan.

Except that I'm pretty sure this is not comparing John Edwards to Stephan.

118 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:07:15am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Catholic joke playing off the stoning of St. Stephen. Decoded: If you nasty conservatives want to wail on the doof, don't let me get in the way.

119 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:08:12am

re: #116 Ben Hur

I don't understand the reference.

Glad you said that!

120 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:08:51am

re: #118 Decatur Deb

Catholic joke playing off the stoning of St. Stephen. Decoded: If you nasty conservatives want to wail on the doof, don't let me get in the way.

I'm not a nasty conservative.

121 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:09:47am

re: #114 Decatur Deb

I once considered voting for him, so I won't attack him. Here, let me hold your coats for you.

And I've never cheated on my wife, so, I guess I can throw stones.

122 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:09:56am

re: #120 Ben Hur

Should have sarc'ed it.

123 theheat  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:10:56am

re: #99 iceweasel

To me, she'll always be Sharpie Spice or Caribou Barbie.

I think she should dump Taaahd Palin and hook up with John Edwards. It would be a big career boost for both of them; sort of a more trashy version of Carville and Matalin. Miss You Betchya teams up with Father of the Year. It's brilliant. They could go on a bi-artisan speaking tour about retroactive abstinence and get the young voters excited. The possibilities are endless.

124 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:11:03am

re: #122 Decatur Deb

Should have sarc'ed it.

Coolio.

It was snark anyway.

Now, if you'd brought up St. Stephen, the Dead tune, I would've gotten it!

125 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #124 Ben Hur

Greateful Dead? I missed most of them except "Morning Dew" (Bonnie Dobson song).

126 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:16:25am

Oh Charles thank you :)

127 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 11:32:03am

One would think that conducting adoption business out on the street, in a car would be a high sign that things aren't quite kosher. But then you would have to actually care about that kind of thing, I guess.

128 elizajane  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 3:14:25pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

I have been bothered by the media coverage of this. In each article I see, they emphasize, for no apparent reason, that lots of Haitians say they would give their children up to get them a better life. It feels to me as though the press is trying to set up a situation in which somehow this was OK, even though it didn't go through correct channels, and Haitian parents had no way of knowing who the hell these people were, because Haitians say they'd place their kids for adoption.

Complaint over.

Yes, I agree. And there is a very easy alternative here: if you want to help children who are destitute but have living families, set up a school. Right there, in their home country, so they can stay with their families but attend your school. Provide free meals for all the children who attend, and free uniforms, and everything. If necessary, make it a boarding school where the families are free to visit at any time. You CAN give children a better life without removing them from their families and exerting complete control over them. You just have to be willing to, er, compromise. To accept the values that their families hold. What a concept!

This bunch from Idaho strikes me as kind of tragically out of touch with reality. But maybe that's just the way their defense is portraying them....

129 elBarto  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:22:30am

The church a friend of mine attends helps run an orphanage in Haiti. One of the problems they have is that parents drop their kids of to be taken care of but never relinquish parental rights. They do this so they can get the American parent to pay then to relinquish rights.

130 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 6:02:33pm

re: #63 The Sanity Inspector

Half-cocked civil disobedience. With these revelations, I withdraw my earlier defense of the missionaries, with the possible mitigating circumstance of sheer idiocy.

On third thought, this from Tony Woodlief kind of resonates with me. Not sneaking, I'll say as much again once the open thread comes around upstairs.


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